Inside the Pentagon on 9/11 | Ambassador Matthew Klimow

Ambassador Matthew Klimow recounts his path from West Point and a 30-year Army career to the highest levels of U. S. national security, including his firsthand experience inside the Pentagon on September 11, 2001. We also discuss the chaos of that day, the early War on Terror, working for Vice President Dick Cheney, and his later diplomatic career as U. S. ambassador to Turkmenistan. Today's Sponsors: GhostBed ⬇️ https://www.ghostbed.com/house FOR 10% off! Quince⬇️ go to: https://www.quince.com/house for free shipping and 365 day returns PrizePicks ⬇️ Visit https://prizepicks.onelink.me/LME0/TEAMHOUSE and use code TEAMHOUSE and get $150 if you win your first $5 lineup! For ad free video and audio and access to live streams... JOIN OUR PATREON! https://www.patreon.com/c/TheTeamHouse To help support the show and for all bonus content including: -live shows and asking guest questions -ad free audio and video -early access to shows -Access to ALL bonus segments with our guests Subscribe to our Patreon! ⬇️ https://www.patreon.com/TheTeamHouse ___________________________________________________ GRAB JACK'S NEW BOOK "THE MOST DANGEROUS MAN" ⬇️⬇️⬇️⬇️⬇️ https://www.penguinrandomhouse.com/books/803651/the-most-dangerous-man-by-jack-murphy/paperback/ Subscribe to the new EYES ON podcast here:⬇️ https://www.youtube.com/@EyesOnGeopoliticsPod/featured Jack Murphy's book "We Defy: The Lost Chapters of Special Forces History" ⬇️ https://www.amazon.com/We-Defy-Chapters-Special-History-ebook/dp/B0DCGC1N1N/ Or make a one time donation at: ⬇️ https://ko-fi.com/theteamhouse Social Media: ⬇️ The Team House Instagram: https://instagram.com/the.team.house?utm_medium=copy_link The Team House Twitter: https://twitter.com/TheTeamHousePod Jack’s Instagram: https://instagram.com/jackmcmurph?utm_medium=copy_link Jack’s Twitter: https://twitter.com/jackmurphyrgr?s=21 Team House Discord: ⬇️ https://discord.gg/wHFHYM6 "Karl Casey @ White Bat Audio" 00:00 – Start 00:57 – Growing Up in Upstate New York & His Father’s WWII Service 04:31 – West Point in the Turbulent 1970s 05:36 – Serving in Cold War Germany 10:00 – The Old Guard, Reagan’s Inauguration & Washington 12:20 – The Career Decision That Changed Everything 15:06 – Traveling With the Secretary of State & the Balkan Wars 16:55 – Madeleine Albright & the NATO-Russia Brigade Disaster 23:02 – Working With General Richard Myers on the Joint Staff 23:50 – Commanding at Fort Bragg & Returning to Washington 30:39 – Inside the Pentagon Before 9/11 33:32 – Watching the World Trade Center Burn From His Pentagon Office 35:00 – NORAD Calls the Pentagon’s Red Phone 36:27 – The White House Emergency Conference Begins 38:46 – “The Building Moved”: The Pentagon Is Hit 40:23 – General Myers Returns to the Burning Pentagon 42:28 – Could U. S. Fighters Shoot Down a Hijacked Airliner? 43:42 – The Chaos Between NORAD, the FAA & Secret Service 48:47 – Watching the South Tower Collapse From the Command Center 50:49 – Rumsfeld Returns & the Pentagon’s Command Crisis 52:33 – Cheney Is Rushed Into the White House Bunker 54:42 – President Bush: “Find Out Who Did This” 55:36 – Running Out of Oxygen Inside the Pentagon 58:30 – Rumsfeld Refuses to Evacuate 59:38 – “What Haven’t We Thought of Yet?” & Raising DEFCON 1:02:02 – Walking the Flight 77 Crash Site 1:03:15 – Soldiers Try to Reenter the Burning Pentagon 1:04:39 – Continuity of Government & Raven Rock 1:07:05 – The Human Toll of the Pentagon Attack 1:10:20 – General Shelton Returns to Washington 1:13:40 – “We’re Going to War” 1:19:38 – Going Home After 9/11 & Returning the Next Morning 1:22:38 – Planning the Afghanistan War & Discovering Turkmenistan 1:24:43 – Helping the Kabul Evacuation 20 Years Later 1:26:44 – Anthrax, the DC Snipers & Fear After 9/11 1:33:25 – Afghanistan, Iraq & the First Year of the War on Terror 1:35:04 – Working for Vice President Dick Cheney 1:36:47 – A Credible Terror Plot Against the New York Subway 1:38:32 – The Threat of Terrorists Shooting Down Airliners 1:40:34 – What 9/11 Exposed About Government Bureaucracy 1:42:59 – Retiring From the Army & Joining the State Department 1:46:20 – How You Actually Become a U. S. Ambassador 1:49:29 – Becoming Ambassador to Turkmenistan 1:51:30 – Turkmenistan, Russia & “Positive Neutrality” 1:55:17 – Natural Gas, Europe & Reducing Dependence on Russia 1:58:15 – How Russia’s Invasion of Ukraine Changed Central Asia 2:00:00 – Diplomacy, Political Prisoners & the Carrot and Stick 2:01:22 – Fighting for Women’s Rights in Turkmenistan 2:05:59 – Turkmenistan’s Future, China & the Caspian 2:07:39 – What It’s Actually Like to Visit Turkmenistan 2:10:25 – The Case for American Soft Power 2:12:42 – Retirement & Trying to Be More Like His Father 2:17:59 – Final Thoughts Become a supporter of this podcast: https://www.spreaker.com/podcast/the-team-house--5960890/support https://www.spreaker.com/podcast/the-team-house--5960890/support?utm_source=rss&utm_medium=rss&utm_campaign=rss.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Speaker 00

  Hanging out at the pool is great. Relaxing and playing Vegas-style games on my phone at the same time. Drinking one hand and a blackjack in the other. It's all at Spinquest. Over 1,000 games, including your favorite slots and table games. Be cool with this summer special. New players get $30 coin packs for 10 at spinquest.com.

• 0:23Speaker 01

  Spinquest is a free-to-play social casino. Void where prohibited. Visit spinquest.com for more details.

• 0:31Speaker 02

  911, what's your emergency? Please help us. They're everywhere. We think they're murder wantons.

• 0:39Speaker 03

  911 Nashville returns.

• 0:41Speaker 04

  What's a homicide detective doing here?

• 0:43Speaker 03

  Three bodies on the ground. With emergencies of biblical proportions.

• 0:47Speaker 04

  Hell, since swarms upon you and upon your people. That's one of the plagues of the Bible. And somebody's unleashing them on Nashville.

• 0:54Speaker 03

  Brian Philippi joins 911 Nashville. All new Thursdays on ABC, next day on Hulu.

• 1:01Jack Murphy?

  Hey, everyone. Welcome to the Team House. I'm Jack Murphy, here with our guest tonight in studio, Ambassador Retired Matthew Klimow. He retired as a Colonel out of the military and then served in the senior executive staff?

• 1:15Speaker 06

  Senior executive service.

• 1:17Jack Murphy?

  Thank you. At State Department.

• 1:18Speaker 06

  At the State Department. For over 20 years and was the Deputy Assistant Secretary General of NATO for Transformation. And my other overseas assignment was five years as Ambassador to Turkmenistan.

• 1:32Jack Murphy?

  And his book is As the Pentagon Burned. As we're going to talk about, you were in the Pentagon on 9/11. So we'll get into all of that.

• 1:41Speaker 06

  Sure.

• 1:42Jack Murphy?

  But thank you for coming into the studio.

• 1:44Speaker 06

  It's a great pleasure, Jack. I admire your work.

• 1:46Jack Murphy?

  Thank you. Thank you. I appreciate it. So, you know, I ask pretty much all of the people on this show, if you could tell us, you know, your origin story, like, how did you grow up? And how did that sort of take you towards military service?

• 1:58Speaker 06

  Yeah, thanks for asking. For my generation, it's kind of a typical story. I grew up in Johnson City, New York. It's upstate, near Binghamton, triple cities. It was an ethnic city, a factory town. All of my grandparents were born in Eastern Europe, Slovak, Polish, what's now Ukraine. And my neighbors were same thing, either first, second, or third generation Americans. Seemed like all the Slavic countries were represented on the north side of Johnson City. The Irish are on the south side. Endicott, New York, next to us, big Italian-American community. And we had big factories there.

• 2:43Speaker 06

  Endicott Johnson Shoes, factories dotted the whole valley. And IBM, that's where Thomas J. Watson had his factories. But they were manufacturing things, too, not software, but hardware. My mom and dad, I had the perfect match, Jack. My dad was the sweetest man in the world. I mean, everybody just adored him. Didn't have a mean bone in his body, but my mom was a driving force in my life. And that's how I ended up at West Point, I'm sure of it. Dad fought in World War II. He was at the Battle of the Bulge.

• 3:23Speaker 06

  In fact, I took him back when I was stationed in Germany to retrace his steps through Belgium and Germany, because he was not only at the Battle of the Bulge, but he was in the town of Melmede, huddled near the train station, hiding, when they got word that the POWs were being gunned down by the Nazis.

• 3:46Jack Murphy?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 3:47Speaker 06

  So he talked about how much fear he had. And he was at Remagen Bridge when it actually fell. So, you know.

• 3:55Jack Murphy?

  Your dad was, he immigrated from Eastern Europe?

• 3:58Speaker 06

  No, my grandfather.

• 3:59Jack Murphy?

  Oh, your grandfather did. Okay. Is there some people who immigrated here and then got drafted into the military and sent right back?

• 4:05Speaker 06

  No doubt. But he had an eighth-grade education. My mom finished high school. And he worked in a factory for 40 years. But he always dressed well. Here I am, in my French cuffs. And he, he didn't talk a lot about the war, but when he did, you know, you pay attention when you're a little boy.

• 4:28Jack Murphy?

  Yeah.

• 4:29Speaker 06

  And I remember watching the Army-Navy game on television with him and just being so blown away by the cadets in uniforms in the midshipmen. But I was a good student, but not a great student. And I never thought I could ever get into an academy. But the typical story, I had a high school history teacher who really believed in me and said, "The West Point recruiter's coming next week, and I want you to go and meet with him." And I was kind of surprised he said that, but I went and got the nomination from a local congressman and got accepted.

• 5:08Speaker 06

  And that was life-changing, obviously, but at West Point was not, to me, you know, this is going to be an Army career. It was a destination itself. I didn't know what was going to come out of there.

• 5:20Jack Murphy?

  What year was this, that you show up at West Point?

• 5:22Speaker 06

  1970. So, you know, as I explained to somebody recently, talking about the turmoil that we see in our own country right now, you know, I'm a child of the 60s. I went, you know, I was a teenager in the 1960s. We saw Washington burn and Detroit burn and.

• 5:41Jack Murphy?

  There were race riots on naval ships. I mean.

• 5:45Speaker 06

  So, you know, I know our country's had its ups and downs, and I'm a strong believer that it will, we'll see our way through this. But I remember being asked by my political philosophy instructor, a guy named Wes Clark, went on to be a four-star general and wanted to be.

• 6:05Jack Murphy?

  Yeah, NATO Commander, wasn't it?

• 6:06Speaker 06

  Yeah. And he asked me what my career plans were when he was a captain and I was a cadet. And I said, "I'd probably just do my five-year commitment and get out and maybe go to Washington." And he said, "Politics, that's where the power is." And Wes Clark really believed in that, obviously. But I had a great experience. My first assignment was in Germany during the Cold War, which was great, because you're in the field all the time and you had a real training mission. It was also great, because I met my wife, Edie, who was an Army nurse. And they didn't get married right away. It took me a little while to wake up that this was the one. She's here.

• 6:48Jack Murphy?

  Patiently watching, just off the camera.

• 6:52Speaker 06

  And, but we did get married. And so we are an Army family in the richest sense of it.

• 7:00Jack Murphy?

  Speaking of the difficulties the country was going through, I mean, the stories I've heard about the post-Vietnam Army, particularly in Germany, you hear some wild stuff. I mean, were there some leadership challenges for you as a young officer?

• 7:14Speaker 06

  Boy, perfect question. And that's not set up, because you didn't know the history here. But in 1972, for my summer training as a West Point cadet, I spent a month, maybe six weeks, in Germany, training with an infantry unit, 154 infantry out of Bamberg, Germany. And our rotation in Grafenwehr was during my time there, so we had a lot of field time. And we had a race riot in the company I was in. And, boy, it was an eye-opener. And it was, it was rough and tumble. But it was a great experience, though.

• 7:54Speaker 06

  And the young soldiers that I worked with, they, I think, took, took me under their wing. And I'm not talking about the senior NCOs, that's their job. You know, the young enlisted soldiers, draftees, who had no intention of staying in the Army very long, knew that it was, I was kind of a unique kind of thing to have a West Point cadet there. And they didn't hassle me. I think they really tried to teach me. And it was a wonderful experience. So I knew I wanted to be in the infantry when I graduated. And that's, that's what I chose. Not that I was high enough in a class to have a lot of choices, but it was perfect

• 8:39Speaker 06

  for me. It threw me in the briar patch.

• 8:41Jack Murphy?

  And so when you got back, you said, you know, your unit in Germany had a real-world mission that you were prepared for, you know, preparing for the, you know, what we thought was an imminent Soviet invasion.

• 8:54Speaker 06

  Well, you know, you went to, not only, um, we're in the field, just training in general, but you actually went to the sites, the exact locations that you would go to, as they used to say, if the balloon goes up, you, you know, here's the routes you would take, this is where your armored personnel carrier will be, this is where the, the tank platoon that's supporting you will be, um, which is, you know, pretty remarkable. But we had, um, a great experience because the second armored division, I'm sorry, the, the 11th Cavalry Regiment, um, had to do their rotation at Grafenbeere, so we took their place. So, we

• 9:37Speaker 06

  had for two months border duty on the East German, West German border. And, uh, you know, you could just imagine running up and down the, uh, the fence and, uh, seeing the East German soldiers in the towers and, uh, real sense of purpose. And so, the Cold War was , uh, dangerous at, you know, in some ways, but it was a great experience for a young lieutenant. And, uh, um, I wouldn't have traded that for anything.

• 10:05Jack Murphy?

  You knew your wife-to-be running around Germany at the time?

• 10:08Speaker 06

  I took her up to the border. There's, there used to be a one kilometer zone you couldn't go into, um, because a lot of the area of the border is not obvious. Um, the fence that, the, the Warsaw Pact soldiers put up was behind the border, so they had room to shoot at people trying to escape. So, you could easily wander over the West German border into East Germany before you even saw a fence. So, they kept American troops away, but I took my bride-to-be up there to show her my border sector and wander around. We had some good times.

• 10:43Jack Murphy?

  So, it sounds like you fell in love with the Army during that, you know, your initial platoon leader experience?

• 10:50Speaker 06

  Uh huh. The, um, you know, I had a pretty typical, um, infantry career in some ways, in some ways not. Um, coming out of, uh, for those familiar with the Army, coming out of the advanced course, um, the, uh, the assignment that I got was to the 3rd Infantry Regiment, the Old Guard in Washington DC.

• 11:11Jack Murphy?

  Yeah.

• 11:12Speaker 06

  So, um, I had the distinct, distinct honor of, uh, commanding the Honor Guard Company, which includes the Tomb of the Unknown Soldier and the Presidential, um, um, Honored Company that marches at the White House and for the official receptions of Heads of State and everything, which was, uh, pretty neat. And I was there for President Reagan's first inaugural, actually escorted President Reagan from Capitol Hill after his swearing in, and, uh, uh, we marched down to the reviewing stand at the White House. During his speech, this is, this is a true story, I sat next to, um, Jimmy Stewart and Johnny Carson,

• 11:55Speaker 06

  um, who were watching their buddy Ronald Reagan become President to their astonishment. Um, and it's another thing I'll never forget. So, the Army presented many great opportunities.

• 12:06Jack Murphy?

  But that's a very high visibility posting for you, you know, as a commander of that unit, because of how, like I said, how visible it is in Washington DC, right?

• 12:16Speaker 06

  Yeah, and it's also indicative of where I was heading, I suppose, because that Washington bug had bit me. Um, and, um, I knew I wanted to come back at some point, but not in a ceremonial position. I knew I wanted to be on some high-level staff in, in the Pentagon, maybe in the National Security Council, even at that point of being a, a junior officer. And, um, you know, that's a point I make, Jack, to, uh, young, not only young military officers when I was still in uniform, but to, uh, people that I mentored throughout my career, 20-plus-year career as a diplomat, um, young Foreign Service officers, just setting goals and knowing where you want to go, managing your own career. And, uh,

• 13:01Speaker 06

  one of the goals, as I mentioned, was I knew I wanted to go back to Washington in a policy position. And because I had that goal, um, I made a strategic career choice. Um, I was a battalion commander, I was selected for the War College, and, um, you get a choice of, not a choice, but you could list your top three choices that-

• 13:24Jack Murphy?

  Fort Knox?

• 13:25Speaker 06

  Well, no, this is the War College. So, you could go to the Army War College, the National War College, or the Sister Services, the Naval War College, Air Force. But they had maybe six or seven fellowships. Um, most of them were at prestige places like, um, Harvard, um, Stanford, the Atlantic Council. But they had one slot at the Center for International Relations at Queen's University in Kingston, Ontario. Uh, my wife Edie and I had, um, been on vacation to Kingston. It is on the Thousand Islands where the St. Lawrence River

• 14:03Speaker 06

  meets Lake Ontario, Lake America. It's beautiful, beautiful. And, um, Queen's University campus, I remember as a tourist seeing it, and I said, "Nobody is going to sign up to make that their first choice. And if I list it, I'm pretty sure I'll get it." And I did. And that changed the whole trajectory of my military career from being a typical infantry officer. Um, because when I was, uh, at Queen's, at the Center for International Relations as a visiting Defense Fellow, I was teaching a course on, um, national security, and, uh, I invited my old mentor to come and speak to the students there, and then give a lecture

• 14:48Speaker 06

  at the Royal Military College, which was across the way. And, um, Lieutenant General Dan Crispin came, and, uh, the Canadian students all had their long knives out for a, an American general, and he was the smartest guy in the room. He graduated number one in his West Point class and was on, had been on the National Security Council and, um, had a career that I envied. And he came up and he spoke to, uh, the students and then to the Royal Military College cadets and had a wonderful time. And he said, "I don't know where you want to go after your fellowship, but I'm going to take care of your next assignment." And the next thing you know, um, I was his executive assistant, where

• 15:29Speaker 06

  he was the assistant to the Chairman of the Joint Chiefs, General John Shalit Koshvili. And, um, my first day in the job, um, our office suite adjoined the Chairman's, and, um, General Shalit Koshvili introduced me to the, the Directors of the Joint Staff, all the three stars, uh, in the room, and the Vice Chairman at the time was a four-star Admiral, Admiral Owens. And our job was to travel with the Secretary of State wherever the Secretary went overseas. So, General Crispin and I, uh, for one year, traveled with Warren Christopher, who was the Secretary of State.

• 16:06Jack Murphy?

  Uh huh.

• 16:07Speaker 06

  Um, the war in the Balkans was raging, um, and that was our focus along with, um, looking at NATO enlargement. And I was also put on an arms, inter-agency arms control team, um, that was negotiating the START III, um, treaty framework and the, the Conventional Forces Europe, CFE treaty extension. Warren Christopher was a gracious, um, a real gentleman, just a gracious guy. Um, so, I'm a, I'm a Colonel, small fry in, in this coterie. We're traveling on the old Air Force Ones, which became Air Force Twos when they got the 747.

• 16:50Speaker 06

  So, these are the, those beautiful 707s.

• 16:53Jack Murphy?

  Uh huh.

• 16:54Speaker 06

  I remember flying on the same plane that took John F. Kennedy's body back from Dallas on one of these missions that we undertook. And, um, we went to Berlin for some talks and got to the hotel, and I was in my T-shirt, and there's a knock on the door, and there's Warren Christopher, um, asking me if I'd like to go out to dinner. And, um, so, it was a dream job. But after one year, General Crispin left, and, um, Warren Christopher, um, left, and it was the second, um, term for President Clinton, and Madeleine Albright became Secretary of State. And I wasn't sure if, if I would fit in, if, if, um, if they

• 17:34Speaker 06

  would welcome me into her close circle, because when you're on that airplane, um, you're, you're, you know, mixing with, uh, her immediate staff, her senior staff. Our first trip was to, um, Brussels. When she was a Secretary, she was going to give her first intervention speech at the North Atlantic Council to NATO. And, um, my job, Jack, was to, um, uh, review her speech for any military equities and make sure that everything was aligned. Before the trip, and this is again, when the Balkan War was, was, you know, really ugly, terrible,

• 18:14Speaker 06

  um, there was a meeting in the Pentagon, and, uh, the Vice President's National Security Advisor, Leon Firth, came over for the, the prep meeting for her first trip to NATO. And he said, "We should create a NATO-Russia Brigade." And Shalit Koshvili, the Chairman, said, "That, that, that's a stupid idea. I don't want to ever hear that again." Just poo-pooed it, you know? I paid attention. So, now, two weeks later, we're on the flight over the Atlantic Ocean. I always sat next to, um, my buddy, who is the speechwriter, um, Tom Malinowski, who became a Congressman. And, um-

• 18:53Speaker 06

  Tom gave me a copy of the speech and I read through it and everything looked fine to me and I put my big fat initials in the top corner. And I learned when I started to fall asleep in these arms control meetings overseas that I should pop an Ambien and get my sleep when I could. So I popped an Ambien, closed my eyes so I could be fresh when we arrived in Europe. And Malinowski gets this phone call and the phone's on the bulkhead and it's from Vice President Gore's National Security Advisor and he says, "Tom, put something in there about creating a NATO Russia Brigade." So he doesn't know and he puts it in.

• 19:31Jack Murphy?

  Oh my gosh.

• 19:32Speaker 06

  She gives her speech. It's front page news around Europe and all hell broke loose. Not well received. Everybody in Washington knows who in the hell is this new secretary you think she is?

• 19:45Jack Murphy?

  Wouldn't the proposal was the idea that it's like in cooperation with the Russians?

• 19:49Speaker 06

  Yes, but you know, creating a brigade, it wasn't, you know, you have this sector and we have this sector was a totally different concept. So the next morning, I'm called in with Tom Malinowski, the speechwriter, into this holding room. And because I later served at NATO, I get to know it well, but it's a big, big room and there's only two people in it. It's Madeleine Albright and her Chief of Staff, Lauren Chokis. And we walk up to her and she said, "Look, you two, I screw up enough for myself. I don't need you two screwing up for me. Don't ever let this happen." So I said, "Yes, ma'am." And I did a bout face like a good soldier and I said, "Thank God I had one good year with Warren Christopher because I just got fired."

• 20:33Speaker 06

  And I went to the hotel and I just put on my workout stuff and went to the gym and worked out and thought, "Man, I am finished." And then we got on the plane, we're going to Moscow next. And I had already had a dozen, 14 trips to Moscow as part of this arms control team. And we met with the Foreign Minister, Primakov, later became Prime Minister of Russia. And Primakov was toying with Madeleine Albright. I could see it. I was, I was backbencher. I was sitting far in the back as I could get and she gets fed up with it and she goes, "I want a 15-minute break. I team, come with me."

• 21:17Speaker 06

  So her immediate staff and the ambassador scurry out and I'm left there and I, there's a big fruit bowl on the conference room table and I'm picking through the fruit bowl and her Chief of Staff comes out, "Colonel, the Secretary wants to see you." And I thought, "Oh my God, not again." And I walk into this, this room where they're meeting and everybody stops talking and looks at me and my heart just sunk. And I said, "This has got to be the worst moment of my life." She said, "Colonel, I understand you're on this arms control team with Deputy Secretary Talbot." And I said, "Yes, ma'am." She says, "Well, what's the history here? Why is this, why is he not cooperating? Why is he so adamant?" I don't even remember what the topic was.

• 22:02Speaker 06

  I said, "Ma'am, I don't know for sure. I could just give you the history." And I related where we were in the talks and she said, "That's helpful. Thank you." We got on the plane, we're going to Japan. This is a round the world trip. And I got as far back in that 707 as I could get. And we got to cruising altitude and Madeleine Albright comes walking down the aisle and she comes right to me and she sits down next to me and she puts her arm on my, my arm and she says, "Klimow. What kind of name is Klimow?" And I said, "I think it's Slovak. We don't know a lot about my grandfather." And she says, "Well, you know, I'm Czech." She said, "We should go to Prague together." And I said, "Ma'am, that would love that." That was it.

• 22:47Speaker 06

  That was her way of saying it's all okay, all is forgiven. And for the next two years, I traveled with Madeleine Albright on all kinds of exciting trips.

• 22:59Speaker 07

  Shopping for a mattress can get overwhelming fast. Too many options, too many opinions, and no clear way to tell what's actually right for you. That's why Ghostbed built their online mattress quiz. It's quick, it's simple, and it helps narrow down the right Ghostbed mattress based on how you actually sleep. You answer a few questions about things like your sleep position, whether you tend to sleep hot, and the feel you prefer. And the quiz gives you a clear recommendation from the Ghostbed collection. And if you're shopping with a partner, you could take it together. The quiz factors in both of your preferences so you're not guessing or compromising blindly. It's an easy way to land on a mattress that works for both of you without overthinking it. Behind the quiz is a family-run brand with more than 20 years of experience making high quality mattresses.

• 23:40Speaker 07

  Plus, you'll get these best deals with Ghostbed because the mattresses are priced up to 50% less than comparable brands. And there's no pressure either. Every mattress comes with 101-night sleep trial and long warranty and fast, free shipping. Most orders arrive in two to five business days. Right now, as a Team House listener, you can take an extra 10% off your order. Just go to ghostbed.com/house and use the promo code HOUSE at checkout. That's ghostbed.com/house, code HOUSE for an extra 10% off sitewide. Some terms and exclusions apply. See site for details. Ghostbed, we love you. Thank you for sponsoring the show.

• 24:17Jack Murphy?

  One thing I love about summer is how easy everything feels. The days are a little more relaxed and I find myself reaching for the same comfortable go-anywhere pieces again and again. That's why I keep coming back to Quince. They focus on well-made essentials that naturally become those everyday staples you actually live in all season long. Quince's 100% European linen pants and shirts are breathable, easy to throw on, and to summer upgrade your rotation needs, starting at just $34. Their tees are soft enough to live in all day and lightweight cotton sweaters are exactly what you want when summer nights cool down. Everything at Quince is priced 50 to 80% less than similar brands.

• 25:01Jack Murphy?

  They work directly with ethical factories and cut out the middlemen, so you're paying for exceptional quality, not brand markup. And it's not just clothing. Quince has become a trusted favorite for everything from home to travel to everyday essentials. Make your summer wardrobe easier. Go to quince.com/house for free shipping on your order and 365-day returns, now available in Canada, too. That's Q-U-I-N-C-E.com/house for free shipping and 365-day returns. Quince.com/house.

• 25:38Speaker 07

  Football is finally back and PrizePix is bringing out their best offer yet. New users who sign up will get $150 in lineups if you win your first $5 lineup. That's right. If you win your first $5 lineup, you get $150 in lineups. And now PrizePix is available nationwide. So what are you waiting for? Lock in for kickoff because everyone and everything is on PrizePix. PrizePix is going crazy with deals to start this football season, giving users a new promo every day during Stack September. Make sure to sign up now for guaranteed picks every Monday along with profit boosts and daily discounts throughout the month. Plus, the app is simple to use. You just pick two to six players and pick more or less on their projected stats like pass yards, rush yards, and fantasy score. It's the best way to get more locked in on game day.

• 26:23Speaker 07

  You can make all the picks you want across any sport all in the same app. Did you know PrizePix invented the injury reboot? If a player in your lineup gets injured in the first half and doesn't return, your lineup can still cash. PrizePix always has improved search functionality and live box scores to track your picks without having to leave the app. Plus, with their social feature, you can find popular picks that users love and copy them in just one click. The PrizePix app is better than ever, so pull up this football season. Download the app today and use the code TEAMHOUSE to get $150 instantly in lineups if you win your first $5 lineup. Download the app right now and use the code TEAMHOUSE to get $150 instantly in lineups if you win your first $5 lineups. PrizePix, run your game.

• 27:07Speaker 03

  Oh, I have had no luck lately. Wait, lady luck?

• 27:15Speaker 02

  Bristy, I got you. I've had so much luck on spinquest.com. They have all of my favorite games, slot games, live blackjack, craps, and bubble craps. You can even get a $30 coin pack for just 10 bucks.

• 27:28Speaker 03

  10 bucks for 30? I'm heading over to spinquest.com right now.

• 27:32Speaker 01

  Spinquest is a free-to-play social casino. Void where prohibited. Visit spinquest.com for more details.

• 27:40Speaker 03

  Cash flow crunch? OnDeck's small business line of credit gives your business immediate access to funds, up to $200,000, right when you need it. Cover seasonal dips, manage payroll, restock inventory, or tackle unexpected expenses without missing a beat. With flexible draws, transparent pricing, and control over repayment, get funded quickly and confidently.

• 28:00Speaker 02

  Apply today at ondeck.com. Funds could be available as soon as tomorrow. Depending on certain loan attributes, your business loan may be issued by OnDeck or Celtic Bank. OnDeck does not lend in North Dakota. All loans and amounts subject to lender approval. 911, what's your emergency? Please help us. They're everywhere. We think they're murder wantons.

• 28:19Speaker 03

  911 Nashville returns.

• 28:21Speaker 04

  It's a homicide detective down here. Three bodies on the ground.

• 28:25Speaker 03

  With emergencies of biblical proportions.

• 28:27Speaker 04

  Oh, since swarms upon you and upon your people. That's one of the plagues of the Bible. And somebody's unleashing them on Nashville.

• 28:34Speaker 03

  Brian Phillippeach, 911 Nashville. All new Thursdays on ABC, next day on Hulu.

• 28:40Jack Murphy?

  Did you go with her to North Korea?

• 28:42Speaker 06

  No, I did not.

• 28:45Speaker 06

  But there's two things I want to mention before I forget, Jack.

• 28:48Jack Murphy?

  Yeah, please.

• 28:50Speaker 06

  First, for in terms of leadership, a lot of people have asked me over the years, I love telling that story about Madeleine Albright. They said, why didn't you defend yourself? Why didn't you say, but it wasn't my fault. I was asleep and that.

• 29:04Jack Murphy?

  Yeah, that's not how you are when you're a soldier. You take responsibility.

• 29:07Speaker 06

  Absolutely. I mean, but a lot of people don't realize that.

• 29:12Speaker 06

  And for West Point cadets, you know, the three answers, yes, sir, no, sir, no excuse.

• 29:18Speaker 06

  So, but, you know, again, junior officers, junior leaders, people just coming in the workforce, that's kind of a eye opener for them. The second thing I want to mention real quick is after Lieutenant General Dan Christman left, become superintendent at West Point, the guy who replaced him was Lieutenant General Dick Myers, US Air Force. And we clicked, just as I did with Christman. And I loved working for him and we had a really good relationship.

• 29:51Speaker 06

  People who don't understand the Joint Staff, wonder how you could work Army, Air Force, but that's the beauty of the Joint Staff, isn't it? I mean, you're bringing all your service traditions and all the pride that comes with it.

• 30:04Speaker 06

  But you are so much stronger as a staff when all those expertise, all that expertise and all those specialties are looking at a problem together. So the Joint Staff is a remarkable place. So after two years of Madeleine Albright, I got picked up for Brigade Command and to my astonishment, when they called me, said, hook up and shuffle to the door. And I said, what are you talking about? And he said, you go into Fort Bragg, North Carolina, and you're going to command the 18th Airborne Corps Combat Support Brigade.

• 30:35Jack Murphy?

  Whoa.

• 30:36Speaker 06

  And I hadn't jumped out of an airplane since I was a lieutenant in Ranger School.

• 30:41Jack Murphy?

  That's a bit of an odd, it doesn't normally work like that, does it? Yeah.

• 30:46Speaker 06

  How does, how do your assignments in Washington work? If somebody please, I don't know. Yeah, I, you know, I fought in the first Gulf War in a, in a heavy armor brigade and expected that that would be my fate. But that was open and that's where they wanted me to go. And of course, that's where I went. And jumping out of airplanes when you're a young lieutenant is a lot different than when you're Colonel.

• 31:18Speaker 06

  So when I went for my refresher, they were just zooming through it because a lot of people would rotate through, you know, the, the refresher for.

• 31:27Jack Murphy?

  It's just another day on Fort Bragg. Yeah.

• 31:30Speaker 06

  Whoa, timeout. I haven't jumped in 18 years or worse. You've got to go slower than this. And I had a great Sargeant Major, thank God, he was wonderful. And Edie and I had just a really good time at Fort Bragg. We, it wasn't a typical parachute regiment, like in the 82nd. We had a hodgepodge, we had a chemical battalion and a signal battalion and EOD company and public affairs detachment, all kinds of hodgepodge things. But we wanted them to feel they were part of a cohesive unit and we did a good job. So near the end of my tour, Sargeant Major came in and his eyes were kind of, what'd

• 32:15Speaker 06

  you do wrong? You screwed up, sir. There's a four-star general on the phone, wants to talk to you. And that, my book is bad news. And I'm thinking, who in the heck could this be? And I, it's got to be General Dick Myers, who, when he left the Pentagon, put in his fourth star to be the Pacific Air Force Commander, and then was the Commander of NORAD and US Space Command. And there were rumors he was coming back to Washington. And he said, I can remember, Klimow, the fun is over. You're coming back to Washington. He said, don't ask. And he said, I need you there in two weeks. I said, two weeks, sir, I'm still in command for another, I forgot, two months.

• 33:00Speaker 06

  And he says, I already called General Shinseki, it's set up. So he gave me four weeks and he became the Vice Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, the number two, and by law, the number two most senior officer in our pyramid, our architecture. And I got there and the Colonel who was holding down the position was Joe Dunford, Marine Colonel, who would go on to his four stars and become Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff in the future. And we had a two-week overlap. And it was back to the Chairman suite.

• 33:43Speaker 06

  I was familiar with it, you know, that first year was kind of typical and from what I remember, we did a lot of international travel.

• 33:53Speaker 06

  But everybody kept asking me about all the newspaper articles that he was in the running to be the next Chairman of the Joint Chiefs. And I, I felt that was probably a pretty good chance. I had seen him interacting with Secretary Rumsfeld. And I knew that there was enough room for the two of them in one room. And I knew, I knew virtually all of the other four-star admirals and generals who were listed as being on the shortlist. And, you know, General Dick Myers doesn't have that huge ego. He's Midwestern Kansan. And that Midwest upbringing, just, you know, I think was what President Bush was looking

• 34:38Speaker 06

  for, Secretary Rumsfeld was looking for. And he had a good relationship with the current Chairman, General Hugh Shelton.

• 34:45Jack Murphy?

  Oh, yeah.

• 34:46Speaker 06

  So, you know, my money was on him.

• 34:50Jack Murphy?

  This is like 2000?

• 34:51Speaker 06

  Yeah. No, it was 2001. And the President, really it was Rumsfeld, I think, they were kind of late in announcing the nomination. So it's a funny story, if we've got time.

• 35:07Jack Murphy?

  Yeah, please.

• 35:07Speaker 06

  Really quick.

• 35:08Jack Murphy?

  Yeah.

• 35:10Speaker 06

  I had worked with General, I was General Myers' exec when he was a three-star. I was his exec again as a four-star. I knew him. I knew his family. And I knew for a while, he really wanted the job. And, but he was always the last person mentioned in all these newspaper articles. And also in the running is Air Force General Richard B. Myers. But then there was a front page story in the Washington Times and it had, down to two, and it had a picture of the Chief of Naval Operations Vern Clark. And again, this time he got a whole paragraph, also in the running is Air Force General Dick Myers.

• 35:54Speaker 06

  And Jamie McIntyre was the CNN correspondent in the Pentagon at the time. He comes bursting in the office, no knock on the door or anything. And he said, we want to be the first to congratulate the General. We got it right from the White House. He's going to be the next Chairman of the Joint Chiefs. So I knock on the inner office door and walk in and say, hey, sir, congratulations, you're going to be the next Chairman. I knew by this time, he was so fed up with the process. He didn't care. I really knew he, he went, yeah, I heard it before. He, he was beyond it, which was kind of healthy. And when McIntyre saw me talking to the General, he realized, he doesn't know, which

• 36:39Speaker 06

  means maybe our scoop is wrong, because surely he would have known.

• 36:44Jack Murphy?

  You would think.

• 36:45Speaker 06

  Yeah, he goes running back to his office, comes running back, says, we verified it with the White House correspondent, he's going to be. And then the phone rings and it's Secretary Rumsfeld and Secretary, our, our Office Secretary, Mary Turner says, sir, Mr. Rumsfeld wants to see you.

• 37:03Speaker 06

  He came back and said, close the door and leave me alone. And he became the nominee to be the next Chairman. And which leads me to my book, by the way.

• 37:11Jack Murphy?

  Yeah, yeah. So yeah, let's get into it a little bit. You know, what, I mean, you talked a little bit about, if you can tell us a little bit more detail about this position you had with the Joint Chiefs, leading into, you know, September of 2001.

• 37:29Speaker 06

  Well, um, let me take you right up to it.

• 37:31Jack Murphy?

  Yeah.

• 37:32Speaker 06

  Because that's primarily what I wanted to talk about and hope you, your listeners are interested in as we approach the 25th anniversary of that tragic event. So, um, you know, I think all of us were stunned by the brutality and the suddenness and to, from the American point of view, this senseless attack. The Presidential Daily Brief that was, became infamous that said Osama bin Laden is intent on attacking American, um, America in America. I was privy to read that.

• 38:11Speaker 06

  Just tuck it away and it was well circulated in Washington, but if you don't have particulars, you know, what do you do?

• 38:19Jack Murphy?

  Specifics, yeah.

• 38:20Speaker 06

  So, on the morning of September 11th, 2001, there were already big changes taking place in the Pentagon. General Hugh Shelton was reaching the end of his four-year tenure as the chairman. And President Bush had formally nominated General Myers to take his place. And that change of responsibility was to take place in 19 days on one October. More importantly, General Shelton was doing his farewell tour. So, he got up very early on the morning of 9/11 and went to Andrews Air Force Base and took off for Budapest, Hungary to meet with all the Defense Chiefs in NATO.

• 39:01Speaker 06

  By law, the Goldwater-Nichols Act of 1986, when the chairman's out of the country, the vice chairman is automatically the acting chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff. So, as events began to unfold on 9/11, General Shelton was in the air over the Atlantic Ocean. General Myers, who was just days away from being sworn in as chairman, was left behind back in Washington. Because he still had to go through his confirmation hearing in three days, he was scheduled for a series of courtesy calls with senators on Capitol Hill. Normally, I would go with him for meetings, take notes and do taskings when I got back. But he said, "I'll just take my aide-de-camp and you could stay back in the office."

• 39:46Speaker 06

  So, he left for Capitol Hill. And our office was in the E-ring of the Pentagon, facing the Potomac River. So, I could see the Washington Monument, big windows, beautiful, rare privilege to have a window like that in the Pentagon. I always kept the television on mute, and when I looked up from my desk, there was the World Trade Center smoking. So, I turned on the sound and they were speculating that it was a small plane or some air control mishap or... And I wanted to believe that, Jack. I, um, I, I could, I was in denial.

• 40:30Speaker 06

  I knew something was wrong. I knew there was more to it than this. But denial prevented me from picking up a phone, from calling either the general or our command center. I just wanted to believe. And I started to get worried about the possibility of flying glass from our picture window, so I asked Mary Turner, our scheduler, to close the heavy draperies, thinking, just in case there's a bomb that goes off. I couldn't imagine that a jetliner was barreling toward us at that very minute. And then suddenly, the red switch rang on the left side of my desk. And the red switches, people would call it a hotline.

• 41:13Speaker 06

  It's the Global Secure Telephone Conferencing System that connects the White House, the Pentagon, and all our major commands around the world. And it's, it's a push-button phone. The top left is POTUS. So, if you pudge it, it rings in the Oval Office. And it bleeds. And it started bleeding. And I picked up the red receiver and on the other end was General Ralph Ed Eberhart, the commanding general of NORAD, calling from Colorado. He said, "Colonel, get General Myers on the phone." I said, "Sir, he's on Capitol Hill." He said, "This is urgent. Get him to a phone. I need to talk to him immediately." So, I hung up the red switch, reached over to the other side of my desk, picked up my

• 41:55Speaker 06

  unsecure phone and called Captain Chris Donahue, an Army Green Beret. Now, Chris was, um, Chris is an unflappable, intense, um, just a tough soldier and had no idea that New York City was under attack. So, I said, "Chris, get, get the old man on the phone. Put him on." He says, "I can't." I said, "What do you mean you can't? He's in with the senator." I said, "Get in there." He said, "You want me to walk in?" I said, "Get General Myers on the phone." General Myers came on the phone. I said, "Sir, do you know what happened in New York?" He said, "The Senator's staff just informed us we just turned on the television." I said, "Eberhart needs you right now. Can you get back to the Pentagon?" He said, "I'll be there in 15 minutes. I'll call General Eberhart from my sedan."

• 42:40Speaker 06

  So, I hung up the phone. Now, you're a combat veteran like I am, Jack. You know that sometimes things that happened a long time ago still trigger emotions and something you see or smell or hear. And I'm still haunted by the sound of what happened next because the red switch rang again. And unlike the point-to-point red switch call with NORAD, this was a conference call being built by the White House Situation Room. And because you're on a top-secret line and you open it to various people, there's an echo chamber. If you were going to make a movie, you would add this sound effect for drama.

• 43:25Speaker 06

  So, the, the White House operator said, "Stand by for a significant event conference." And he started to patch leaders from around Washington into the call, the head of the FBI, the head of the CIA. And he said, "All parties are on the line, stand by." And I thought, "Kendall Lisa Rice must be coming on." But it was General Eberhart from NORAD, and he said, I can remember exactly what he said. "We have several airplanes on radar and I know a number of them have been hijacked." I pulled out my pad and started taking notes. "Two F-15s from Otis Air Force Base in Massachusetts vector to New York City. American Airlines Flight 11 confirmed hijack. It's headed to Washington."

• 44:09Speaker 06

  Well, this in fact was erroneous information. Flight 11 had already hit the North Tower of the World Trade Center 45 minutes earlier. And that was emblematic of all the chaos and confusion we were going to wrestle through. And Flight 11's misidentification would cause ripple effect throughout that morning. Now, about this time, you know, I'm intensely taking notes and Mary Turner, our scheduler, starts to wave at me. And I'm thinking, "Can't she see this is important?" And she has a phone in her hand and she starts waving it. She says, "It's General Shelton, the chairman. He's calling from his airplane. He wants to talk to you now." So, I kept the red switch in my left ear.

• 44:52Speaker 06

  I picked up the unsecure phone, put it to my right here. Now, you may not remember General Shelton, but he is a six-foot, five-inch-

• 45:00Jack Murphy?

  Yes, tall guy.

• 45:01Speaker 06

  -square-jawed, hard-bitten paratrooper.

• 45:04Jack Murphy?

  Vietnam veteran.

• 45:05Speaker 06

  Yes. And he is, does not suffer fools. And so, "What the is going on back there?" And I said, "Sir, I'm on the red switch with NORAD and the White House are relaying information." So, I'm listening, relaying information, focused on these two calls, when Mary Turner just jumps up and says, "The building moved." And suddenly, there's pandemonium outside her door, people screaming and yelling, running down the corridor. I said, "Mary, close the door, I can't hear." I was just so focused, I didn't even feel the building shudder. And finally, after a minute, the watch officer from inside the Pentagon-

• 45:43Jack Murphy?

  The, the phone lines continued to work even-

• 45:45Speaker 06

  Yes.

• 45:46Jack Murphy?

  -after the-

• 45:47Speaker 06

  So, on the red switch from inside the National Military Command Center, which is in the inner rings of the Pentagon, the watch officer broke into the red switch call and said, "The Pentagon's been hit by the air, by an airplane."

• 45:58Jack Murphy?

  Wow.

• 45:59Speaker 06

  "We see smoke coming." So, as calmly as I could, I took a deep breath and relayed the information to General Shelton. I could hear him consulting with his staff on the plane and then the line dropped. And seconds later, General Myers called. And he was coming over the 14th Street Bridge over the Potomac River. He could see the smoke rising up. He asked if we're okay, and I said, "Yes, sir." He said, "I'm three minutes out. Meet me at the river entrance." So, I put down both receivers and I grabbed Mary and we made our way into the hallway and people were coming out. But what amazed me, Jack, was in the few minutes from impact, the Pentagon, the largest office building in the world, is 17 miles of corridors.

• 46:43Speaker 06

  We are on the north side of the building and the plane hit on the west side, but it was already filling with smoke. So, we joined the crush of people coming down the stairs. General Myers' sedan pulled up. He grabbed my arm. We made our way through the crowds, back up the stairs. And two uniformed security guards half-heartedly stopped us and said, "General, we're not allowed to let anybody in. It's not safe. We pushed our way past these well-intentioned officers." We made our way into the inner rings of the Pentagon, the National Military Command Center. And, you know, this is a Cold War Command Center, and it looks like it. It's a great movie set.

• 47:23Jack Murphy?

  Like something from Doctor Strange, love.

• 47:25Speaker 06

  Yes, exactly. It's a rabbit's warren of dead-end corridors and cubicle farms, televisions hanging from the ceiling. There's a two-story deck, you could imagine. And the, the watch officer or the chief of operations could stand on the deck and see everything going on below him. Inside, at least as it was configured in 2001, there's a self-contained conference room. It's about the size of a conference room. This is where the Deputy Director of Operations maintained the 24-hour watch. We call it the DDO shack. And it was part of the nuclear node for the event of a nuclear war. This would be one of the critical nodes in Washington. It had its own circulation system.

• 48:09Speaker 06

  So, when we entered, we walked past all these soldiers, sailors, airmen, marines, and the outer portions of the NMCC. It was haze of acrid smoke filling the NMCC. But they were all at their stations, doing what they're supposed to do. When you walk into the DDO shack, it must have been a dozen or more television screens all showing the World Trade Center, just like in a TV control room. And then on the far right, there's a huge screen that shows the track of our top-secret intelligence satellites. The center, there's a long conference table with red switch telephones.

• 48:45Speaker 06

  Miraculously, General Myers had been the NORAD commander just prior to that assignment as the vice chairman. So, he understood the air defense scenario better than anybody in Washington, and he began this conversation with the NORAD commander, General Eberhart. He said, "Ed, we don't have ROE to shoot down a civilian airliner, do we? Rules of engagement, ROE." And Eberhart said, "No, sir, we don't." He said, "That's first order of business." So, with the doing, and you appreciate this, this is modified mission analysis, condensed mission analysis, get to the guidance that we need to do.

• 49:25Jack Murphy?

  Did they need the president to weigh in on that?

• 49:27Speaker 06

  We'll talk about that. And what they wanted to do was shorten the decision loop. They didn't want to put the burden of making the decision to shoot on the shoulders of a single fighter pilot. But they didn't want to have that pilot have to go through layers of command, leading all the way back to Washington. So, they delegated the command authority to a two-star general, Larry Arnold, at the northeast regional NORAD center in Rome, New York. It's an old Air Force base up there. So, he had the authority to give that command.

• 50:07Speaker 06

  Now, as NORAD began to disseminate the rules of engagement, the famous fog of war started to descend on us. Because unknown to us, the FAA and the Secret Service in Washington had a hotline between the control tower at Reagan National Airport, across the Potomac River, and the Secret Service headquarters in the White House, or their command center in the White House. And the FAA called the Secret Service, said, "We have a flight on radar we know is coming to Washington. We know it's hijacked." Flight 93, which would eventually crash in Pennsylvania. So, the Secret Service took the initiative to call the Air National Guard commander

• 50:51Speaker 06

  at Andrews Air Force Base and tell them, "Scramble jet aircraft."

• 50:55Jack Murphy?

  The Secret Service can't give orders to the...

• 50:58Speaker 06

  Yes, Jack. So, at the time, his brigadier general, Worley, and he said, "I don't take orders from the Secret Service." And they, you can imagine what, I don't know exactly what the agent said, "Listen, can't you see what's happening on CNN? This is, this is an attack." And he said, "I can't take orders from you. I need someone in authority to give me that, the authority." And they went back and forth, I don't know how many minutes. But it's documented. Finally, General Worley relented. And unlike the NORAD fighters, which are stationed around the nation on strip alert, you know, these were National Guard fighters, had a mission, but not equipped like NORAD

• 51:40Speaker 06

  and not on complete strip alert, not armed with the same kind of weapon systems. So, now they're spinning up. And General, or I'm sorry, Vice President Cheney was advised by the Secret Service that they've got pilots that are going to be in the air shortly from Andrews Air Force Base, and he gave the authority to go to weapons free, meaning the pilots can fire at their own discretion.

• 52:06Jack Murphy?

  Right.

• 52:07Speaker 06

  Not knowing, of course, that NORAD had different rules of engagement. These were on different radio frequencies, coming out of Langley Air Force Base in southern Virginia, in a different chain of command. And these two flights, coming from different Air Force bases, had no idea that the others were in the air.

• 52:25Jack Murphy?

  Oof.

• 52:26Speaker 06

  They couldn't communicate. And those communication problems were not solved, even when they finally realized that somewhere up above us is another flight of F-16. Just another kind of example of the chaos. And in terms of leadership, and at the end of each chapter, Jack, of my book, I have leadership observations. At the end of this chapter, I talk about where leaders should be, to command and to control, two different things. So, those fighters, coming out of NORAD's Langley Air Force Base control center, did exactly what they're trained to do.

• 53:09Speaker 06

  And that's what we like to say. Fight the way you train and train the way you intend to fight. They took off and headed due east over the Atlantic Ocean, and they kept going, for 60 miles over the Atlantic Ocean. Because that's what they were trained to do. Even though they all knew that the World Trade Centers had been hit by commercial aircraft. But they were told, and they were trained, to always get out of the busy north-south commercial airline quarter. You never break the sound barrier over land, get over the ocean, and your threat is to look for Russian-launched cruise missiles.

• 53:51Speaker 06

  When they had their after-action review, the pilots really couldn't articulate why they didn't click. You know, things click and they head to Washington. Yeah, I think there's another reason, and this is my own supposition, which I talk about in the book. Two F-16s were on strip alert, but three F-16s took off from Langley Air Force Base. Two, or three jet fighters better than two. In this case, I'm not sure, because the third fighter was piloted by the supervisor of flight, whose job was to be in the NORAD control center. He was the only commissioned officer in the control center.

• 54:34Speaker 06

  But he wanted to lead his jet, his fighter pilots, on a real mission, and I don't blame him. That's what I wanted to do as an infantry officer. That's what the firefighters wanted to do, to be at the point of impact, the point of action. But I wonder, if he had stayed in the control center, his place of duty, would he have the situational awareness to say, "Okay, hit your afterburners, get to Washington now," instead of wandering out over the Atlantic Ocean? So, those are the kind of leadership questions, you know, I pose at the end of each chapter.

• 55:12Speaker 06

  Now, at 9:58, the world, South Tower of the World Trade Center collapsed, and I can remember watching it on these big screens that were in the DDO shack. And I was mesmerized. It was, I realized what was happening in real time could change the world, and I don't know how many seconds or minutes, it seemed short, I was watching this, fixated on it. Now, like every, unlike everybody else in the National Military Command Center, I didn't have a job. Everybody else had specific duties. My only job was to be with General Myers as his exec.

• 55:55Speaker 06

  And when I turned around from the television screens, he was gone. And it's the only time during the day that I panicked. I couldn't imagine where he was. I screamed out of the DDO shack, through the NMCC, out into the main quarters of the Pentagon. The evacuation siren and recording was still blaring, and it's just so annoying, it just filled with this acrid smoke. I ran to our office, and I, some things, if I hadn't taken notes, I wouldn't remember, but some things I remember. I remember standing in the center of our office. It was empty. And I thought, "Where is he?" And then it hit me. Rumsfeld. He must have been looking for Secretary Rumsfeld.

• 56:40Speaker 06

  So, I ran up the staircase, outside our door, and he was, General Myers was coming out of Secretary Rumsfeld's office. And he said, "He's not here." I said, "Sir, we've got to get back to the NMCC, there's nobody in charge." So, we jogged back down to the NMCC. And now, the fog of war was hitting us again. These false reports of a bomb blast at the State Department.

• 57:03Jack Murphy?

  And I should mention that, you know, this is a command and control issue also, is that your TOC, your Operations Center, so to speak, is there in the Pentagon, but the Pentagon has come under attack, and that has to be pulling everyone in two directions as well.

• 57:17Speaker 06

  Yeah, I'm going to talk about that in a second. That's a really, really strategic point. Secretary Rumsfeld came into the NMCC about that point. He had initially rushed out to look at the damage to the Pentagon. There's an iconic picture of him. There's a great book by a guy named Graff, called "The Only Plane in the Sky," and there's a picture of Rumsfeld carrying a stretcher out of the burning Pentagon. Very dramatic. Just like that fighter pilot, wanted to lead from the front, and the firefighters, you know, he wanted to be there. But for 30 minutes, he was out of communication.

• 57:59Speaker 06

  Our Secretary of Defense, a member of the National, or the military chain of command, could not be reached. His security detail, you know, with their earpieces, could hear people calling for them, but the communication systems were overwhelmed, and no one could hear their replies. I remember he described the fiery scene and what had happened, but he was calm and cool as everyone was. And we got down to business. We, General Myers updated him on the rules of engagement, and he called Vice President Cheney. And I got to work for Vice President Cheney after

• 58:41Speaker 06

  this assignment in the Pentagon after a year and a half. And I asked the Vice President what had happened that day, because I had seen the other half of it. And he told me about the confusion, the, he actually, he told me about the rules of engagement, and knowing what I knew about the rules of engagement we issued, I finally put two together and understood, you know, they were talking past each other.

• 59:05Jack Murphy?

  Right, right.

• 59:06Speaker 06

  He said, when the Secret Service got that call from the FAA, his protective detail burst into his office, reached behind him, picked him up by his belt, and half-carried him down to the PEOC, the Presidential Emergency Operations Center.

• 59:21Jack Murphy?

  Was he in the White House?

• 59:22Speaker 06

  Yes.

• 59:23Jack Murphy?

  Okay, and President Bush was in the air, I believe.

• 59:25Speaker 06

  That's right. President Bush was in Florida when the first plane hit. So, they pretty much carried him down to the bunker underneath the White House. And now President Bush is getting very frustrated. We had all these assumptions that Air Force One is the flying White House, but the communication links were not as good as they could have been. He couldn't get television reception. So, he landed initially at an Air Force Base in Louisiana, and then they decided the safest place to go, smartest place would be off at Air Force Base, our Strategic Command Headquarters. There, they've got great communications, and they've got an underground bunker. It's in the center of the country, far from any

• 1:00:10Speaker 06

  overseas threat. So, when he landed, President Bush asked to speak to key leaders in Washington. So, we had to leave the DDO Shack and go to a SKIF, a Sensitive Compartmented Information Facility, which for your view is simply a soundproof room. And it's just big enough for six or seven people, but it's part of the NMCC

• 1:00:33Jack Murphy?

  Okay.

• 1:00:34Speaker 06

  ... architecture. It's just not in the DDO Shack. So, when we walked out, that haze of smoke is still there. There's our sailors, soldiers, airmen, Marines still at work. We're so proud of them. It was Secretary Rumsfeld, General Myers, the Chief Counsel of the Department of Defense, Tori Clark, the spokesperson for the Defense Department, my counterpart, Vice Admiral Ed Gianbasciani, who was the military assistant to Secretary Rumsfeld. And I remember closing the door to the SKIF, which is about this thick, and sealing it. And I got in the back of the room, next to the Admiral, and it was a remarkable

• 1:01:19Speaker 06

  conversation with the President. President Bush came on, he was at his best. And I remember his exact words were, "I want everyone who could hear my voice on this call to know that no faceless thugs will hold our country at bay. I want you to find out who did this. I want you to track them down, and I want you to destroy them." Of course, we assumed it was Osama bin Laden, but we weren't sure. Now, someone on the conference call outside the Pentagon said, "Fuck bin Laden." And President Bush came right back on. He said, "Now, wait a minute. First, get the facts. Second, clean up your language." And that's exactly what happened. It broke the tension on the call. Bush's instincts

• 1:02:01Speaker 06

  were perfect. And, you know, we all cracked a smile and chuckled. But as the phone call went on, I got sick. I thought I was gonna pass out. And my head was foggy, and I had a headache. And to make things worse, Admiral Gianbasciani was just yapping in my ear. And I just thought, I can remember thinking, "Will you please shut up?" And finally, he grabbed my arm. He said, "Colonel, Colonel," he says, "you don't understand. I'm a submarine captain. There's no oxygen in this room. It's filled with carbon dioxide." And I said, "Are you sick?" He said, "Yeah." He said, "Come with me." So, we skirted around

• 1:02:41Speaker 06

  the table. We got out of the room. He said, "Look, we gotta get to an alternate command site." He said, "Well, let's go to the Navy, get everybody out. We'll go to the Navy Operations Center." I said, "Admiral, that's where the plane hit." And they lost everybody. All the Navy casualties that day were from the Navy Operations Center. I said, "Sir, I've been on the phone several times with the Army Ops Center. It's in the basement." He said, "Okay, we better make sure we can get there. I'm gonna do a recon," he said, "and I want you to go find an air monitor and see how bad the air quality is." So, he takes off, and I'm standing there thinking, "An air monitor. They have air monitors in submarines, but where am I gonna find an air monitor in the Pentagon?" So, I did what

• 1:03:26Speaker 06

  every good infantry colonel would do. I called for my captain. "Captain Donahue, go find an air monitor." And Chris Donahue looks at me and didn't ask, "What's an air monitor? Where can I find one?" He said, "Yes, sir," and took off. A few minutes later, the Admiral comes back, shaking his head. He said, "We're trapped. They're trapped in the basement. The corridors are blanketed with the thickest black smoke you can imagine."

• 1:03:52Jack Murphy?

  Yeah, jet fuel.

• 1:03:53Speaker 06

  Yeah. And the burning of things inside the Pentagon.

• 1:03:59Jack Murphy?

  Yep, yep.

• 1:04:00Speaker 06

  So, we turned around, and here comes Captain Donahue with the Arlington County Fire Department Air Quality Expert. He not only found an air quality, he found the guy who could use it. And so, we sent him to work. The firefighter came back and said, "Look, in the outer portions of this command center, you're at 33% oxygen, but in that little soundproof room, you're at 16%. You can't survive at 13%. You need to leave." So, he said, also, I remember, he said, "The corridors are filled with carbon monoxide, not carbon dioxide," which is what we were suffering from. Carbon monoxide and heavy metals.

• 1:04:37Jack Murphy?

  Right.

• 1:04:38Speaker 06

  So, we were in danger. Now, again, the fog of war. The fire chief, the incident commander, the deputy fire chief of Arlington County, had been told the Pentagon was evacuated completely of anybody alive. So, with the fires raging, and they would burn for three days, he shut down the air handling units. We didn't know that. So, the Admiral and I went back in the SKIF and interrupted Secretary Rumsfeld and General Myers, and said, "Sir, the air quality's bad. The Fire Department told us we need to evacuate." And General Myers, like a good troop commander, you know, said, "We've probably got up to 20 people in here. Mr. Secretary, they're not gonna leave until you do." And Rumsfeld shook his

• 1:05:21Speaker 06

  head and said, "We cannot leave. This is the symbol of America's military power. We have got to stay." And then, he looked at the Admiral and me, said, "You two, get the word out. Tomorrow is a workday at the Pentagon. Everybody reports for duty as normal at 8:30." Wow. A fire chief knew the fire was not gonna be out

• 1:05:40Jack Murphy?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:05:41Speaker 06

  ... the next day. And the FBI considered the whole building a crime scene.

• 1:05:45Jack Murphy?

  Yeah.

• 1:05:46Speaker 06

  But Rumsfeld would not be denied. So, the Admiral said, "Sir, we've got an alternate place in OSD, Office of Secretary of Defense. We could move there. We still got comms. We need to get out of this room." So, something significant happens here. So, we're leaving the SKIF, and the six of us are walking through the NMCC, and Rumsfeld stops us in our tracks. "What haven't we thought of yet? What can the enemy do next?" And General Myers said, "NBC, Nuclear Biological Chemical Attack." And he ordered the sea brif units down Camp Lejeune to be prepositioned outside of New York and Washington. So, at the end of this

• 1:06:29Speaker 06

  chapter, you know, I talk about a leader's instincts. You can't, we were getting lethargic. Maybe it was from the carbon dioxide, lack of oxygen. But we were sleepwalking, and Rumsfeld had the sense to wake us up. Now, you can't write that in an SOP. You get to this point, shout out something. It's just what a leader instinctively knows has to be done. And so, I ask people, leaders, to think about that and tuck that away. So, we went to a different part of the command center, and Secretary says, "We need to raise

• 1:07:11Speaker 06

  our alert level." We raised our Force Protection level already, but he said, "We need to go to DEFCON 3," which is a dramatic decision, and some historians have questioned the wisdom of it. Because that put all of our

• 1:07:24Jack Murphy?

  That was done to put our air defenses on, like, full alert, right?

• 1:07:28Speaker 06

  Yes. But when you go to DEFCON 3, it also alerts our nuclear forces.

• 1:07:31Jack Murphy?

  Yes.

• 1:07:32Speaker 06

  And the Russians were conducting drills in the Bering Sea area near Alaska, which made things a little dicey. The Russians did agree to stop. I should point that out. Another interesting thing here, because someone, just as you said, you know, what has to be decided by the President, the General Counsel for the Defense Department, Jim Haines, said, "Whoa, whoa, whoa. I don't know if he has the authority to do it." And this is the days before digitization and smartphones. And so, Colonel in the command center picked out a three-ring binder and flipped through it, and it was all there, and said, "Mr. Secretary,

• 1:08:16Speaker 06

  you have the authority to raise the DEFCON level." And he did. And that put all of our military forces around the world at a higher level.

• 1:08:26Speaker 06

  About 4:00 PM, we went outside to look at the crash site. And I could remember my heart beating, just thinking about what I was gonna see when I rounded that last corner. And when I came around the corner, the first thing I saw was a debris field, just, someone said it was like confetti. It was just bits and pieces of American Airlines Flight 77 on the ground. Just one big piece I could see. The rest is shreds.

• 1:08:57Jack Murphy?

  Were you guys aware, Flight 93, by this point, had gone down in Pennsylvania? And I don't know if there's ever been like, an official weighing in on it, but I mean, we suspect that they were headed to the White House, right?

• 1:09:11Speaker 06

  I don't think anybody knows. I think everybody agrees it was headed to Washington. That's a great question, Jack. Two things I want to point out. First, around 10:00 AM, the, there was an alert that went out from the FAA. Unknown aircraft approaching five miles from Washington. So, when that alert went out because of Flight 93, the incident commander, Chief Schwartz, pulled all of his first responders out of the building to get them away from the Pentagon. And a group of soldiers, sailors, airmen, and marines who had left the Pentagon watched

• 1:09:50Speaker 06

  this, and they were indignant and said, "We're going in." And they got together and started marching to get back in the building and rescue their comrades. If the firefighters weren't gonna do it, they were gonna do it. The firefighters stopped them. And there's a great quote from one of them, I've seen a video of it, said, "There's no place for you in there. You don't know what's in there. You're not equipped, you're not trained. You will be a victim in minutes." So now, this is standoff, and I call it the clash of cultures. You know, here are soldiers, they're used to taking orders from authority, and the firefighters

• 1:10:31Speaker 06

  are clearly in the authority in this, in this situation. But, these are young men and women, trained with the ethos of never leaving anybody behind, risk-taking, and they were gonna go in. And then finally, you know, the, the alert kept coming. Airplane approaching, airplane approaching, and everybody realized they needed to get back. But those were blips on radar from the helicopters, part of the COG, the continuity of government plan, the COG, and they were coming in to ferry key leaders from Washington to alternate command sites.

• 1:11:12Jack Murphy?

  Right, right.

• 1:11:13Speaker 06

  For the Pentagon, it's Site R, well outside the Beltway.

• 1:11:16Jack Murphy?

  Was it, where's it, Raven Rock?

• 1:11:18Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 1:11:19Jack Murphy?

  So?

• 1:11:20Speaker 06

  Raven Rock. And, so, a lot's been written about this. First, it, it worked the way it was planned, in terms of the launch. Steve Hadley was the Deputy National Security Advisor, triggered the COG. The helicopters were coming out of Andrews, maybe also out of Fort Belvoir. They had the routes. Tragically, one of those routes that was practiced was the, that 2024 helicopter that hit that commercial airliner.

• 1:11:52Jack Murphy?

  The Black Hawk?

• 1:11:53Speaker 06

  Yeah, Black Hawk that hit that airliner coming in to Reagan National Airport in 2024. But that's what they were rehearsing. And, the thing that, that didn't go according to plan, and I didn't say didn't work, because I have a differ, different opinion about this than some people, is, none of the key principals wanted to leave. The only one in the chain of presidential succession who did, was Dennis Hastert, who was then Speaker of the House. He got on a helicopter and went to the, where the House has their alternate command site. And, everybody else refused to leave, and they sent their deputies. There is a great quote from Rumsfeld's autobiography, Knowns and Unknowns, where Paul Wolfowitz's

• 1:12:37Speaker 06

  Deputy Defense Secretary comes in, and, I remember him walking in, I could see it clearly. He said, "You know, Mr. Secretary, you're supposed to leave and go to Site R." And he said, "I'm not going to Site R, that's what deputies are for, you're going to Site R." And he put on the helicopter to go out there. So, there's a reporter who bemoans the fact, and he wrote a great book called On That Day, really good book, he said, "You know, we failed in that regard, but I, I think leaders made the right decision." Rumsfeld, in hindsight, you know, it's easier to say, airplane could have hit the Pentagon,

• 1:13:17Speaker 06

  and we could have lost Rumsfeld as well, but, but the comms aren't as good, you're, everything's better inside Washington, so it seemed at the point, that he made that decision. So let me take you back outside.

• 1:13:30Jack Murphy?

  Yeah, please.

• 1:13:31Speaker 06

  Dr. John Baxter, US Air Force Colonel, and physician, who's General Myers's physician and mine, came up and described the triage his team had been providing, and it was remarkable. And I remember very well, he described the horrible burns of a woman, whose hands and face were severely burned. And he pumped her with morphine, put her on the helicopter, took her, they took her to the Washington Burn Center. I couldn't know it at the time, of course, but, four days later, my mom and dad called me from upstate New York, and that was my high school classmate.

• 1:14:09Jack Murphy?

  Whoa.

• 1:14:10Speaker 06

  Louise Rogers. And, the tragedy is not only, of course, her, her injuries, but it was her first day working in the Pentagon. She just got a new job as a civilian, working in HR, and they were listening to the radio with her, her office mate when the plane hit. She survived, you know, life-changing wounds. My wife Edie and I visited her at the Burn Center. Just a strong woman, and she's living in upstate New York again. But, just a reminder, this is not just, you know, tragedy for a nation, it's a tragedy on such an individual human scale.

• 1:14:54Speaker 06

  The fire chief and the Chief of Security came up to us, and I remember being shocked that the windows on either side of this deep gash, which was still smoking, were still intact. And the Security Chief, John Jester, said, "You know, we were very lucky, Mr. Secretary, because out of the five wedges of the Pentagon, this is the only wedge that had been remodeled. The other four are slated for remodeling. But because of that, you could see through the wreckage, there are steel girders, there are no steel girders on the other four sections. They held for 32 minutes, and allowed many people to escape. But every action has its unintended consequences.

• 1:15:38Speaker 06

  Those were reinforced ballistic glass windows, this thick. And I actually have a piece, that, I can tell you how I got it, it's from the embassy, actually, and we replaced our embassy glass. It's about eight inches thick. And, they saved untold damage, debris flying, but because those windows held in place, that kinetic energy was trapped. So all that explosive force shot towards the outside, bounced off those ballistic windows, and back inside the Pentagon, and they raced as fireballs through the corridors and the passageways of the Pentagon.

• 1:16:21Speaker 06

  The firefighters arrived, and they could not break the windows to vent the smoke and the heat. We went back inside, and there was a major, Army Major, bloodied uniform, bandaged, you know, arm in a sling, and he described the, the blackness, and trying to help people escape, and the soles of his shoes had started to melt, the fire was so intense. Now about this time, Mike Hunter Park, General Hugh Shelton, the Chairman's exec, called. We had served together before, I knew him well, Doug Lute. Army Colonel at the time, retired as a three-star, like me, became the United States Ambassador, he was our Ambassador to NATO, so we've got quite a history.

• 1:17:06Speaker 06

  And he called from General Shelton's airplane, still over the Atlantic Ocean. He said, "Matt, we finally got permission to come back to Washington." I said, "I thought you'd be here by now." He said, "It's just, everything's closed, all the airspace." He said, "Where do you want General Shelton to go?" So I saw Rumsfeld and Meyer's conversing, and I interrupted them, and I said, "Sir, I've got General Shelton's exec on the phone, where do you want him to go? He's coming back to Washington." And they turned to me, and in unison, said, "Site R." Which surprised me. I said, "Site R." They said, "Site R." I said, "Doug, Site R."

• 1:17:46Speaker 06

  I was very sheepish when I said this. He said Sidor. I said, yes, sir. And I hung up and I knew General Shelton would not be happy.

• 1:17:55Jack Murphy?

  It's gonna hit the roof.

• 1:17:56Speaker 06

  He's still the chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff for 19 days. He's a warhorse. But it raises an interesting question. You know, where do you want everybody to be? You got Rumsfeld and Myers there. Myers had been in charge all morning. He had the continuity of what was happening. More importantly, he had been the NORAD commander until recently, and he understood the air defense scenario better than anybody in Washington. And in 19 days, you'd be the next chairman.

• 1:18:26Speaker 06

  On the other hand, you want Shelton, Myers, and Rumsfeld there at the same time, or you just place Myers to Sidor?

• 1:18:33Speaker 06

  You know, it's a tough decision.

• 1:18:34Jack Murphy?

  As I understand continuity of government, it was, it can be used for different things as it was on 9/11. It could be used, you know, when there's a pandemic, for instance. But it was designed really to keep the United States government functional during a nuclear exchange. But this wasn't that, right? So, America was under attack, but to take all those key leaders and to sequester, sequester them in Sidor, I think would have been a huge mistake.

• 1:19:01Speaker 06

  Well, yeah, we, of course, we have the benefit of hindsight.

• 1:19:02Jack Murphy?

  We are, for sure.

• 1:19:04Speaker 06

  In my book, I, I could tell you the exact time, but at one point, General Myers turned to me and, and said, Matt, call off at Air Force Base Strategic Command and have them launch the NAOC, the National Airborne Operations Center. That's the big-

• 1:19:19Jack Murphy?

  The doomsday plane.

• 1:19:20Speaker 06

  That's what they call it.

• 1:19:21Jack Murphy?

  Yeah.

• 1:19:22Speaker 06

  The doomsday plane. And there's more than one, and one was sitting in Andrews Air Force Base and was launched. Why? We didn't know what would happen at that point in the morning. But there was also, in addition to COG, the C O G, the Continuity of Government Plan, there's the COOP, the Continuity of Operations Plan that every federal agency has for emergencies and crises below existential threat to the nation.

• 1:19:53Jack Murphy?

  Yes, right.

• 1:19:54Speaker 06

  So, the COOP plan is, is different, very similar in some ways, but different. But yes, the COG is part of that survival of the nation plan, very much so.

• 1:20:07Speaker 06

  So, things are starting to quiet down around 6:00 or so, as I remember, and the adrenaline's starting to fade. And there's still, you know, a little buzz in the National Military Command Center. I look up, and there, standing in the door, is General Hugh Shelton. He did not go to Sidor. I knew he wouldn't. And, talk about leadership again. So, when a leader walks into a room, the chemistry should change, the whole dynamic. And for an awkward few second, seconds, Shelton's standing there, because nobody sees him. So, on my best command voice, I said, gentlemen, the chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff. And everybody

• 1:20:51Speaker 06

  turns around and looks at me like, what are you talking about? He's standing next to Myers. Myers had been in charge all morning. And then, General Shelton strode in the room, that big iron jaw set. There's this look of reproach, even anger on his face. And I remember, he looked, the whole room is just silent, standing at attention. And he went to Vice Admiral Tom Wilson, who was the Director of the Defense Intelligence Agency. He said, Tom, did we have any squeaks on this at all? And Admiral Wilson, who interestingly, was on Navy Hill, for those familiar with Navy Hill at the time, it's been demolished now,

• 1:21:33Speaker 06

  but it sits above the Pentagon, or did. And in his office up there, he watched Flight 77 plow into the Pentagon. That's an aside. So Admiral Wilson said, General, you know, we did have some reports of some suspicious, possible bad guys taking jumbo jet training a few months ago.

• 1:21:56Speaker 06

  Stunning. So, we had bits and pieces. I think there's an FBI agent, a woman, who pieced this together and tried to get the attention of people, but, you know, we had failed. So, President Bush, after Condoleezza Rice and Vice President Cheney saying, please, Mr. President, don't come back to Washington yet, said, I'm coming. And landed, I think, before 7:00 PM at Andrews Air Force Base, and was going to make an address to the nation at 8:30 PM. So, General Shelton and Secretary Rumsfeld went to the White House for that

• 1:22:39Speaker 06

  event. And before he left, General Shelton told General Myers, when I get back, I want the directors of the Joint Staff to gather in my office, or not my office, in our conference room. We're gonna have a meeting. Directors of Joint Staff are three stars, plus the Vice Chairman is a four star. And I think we all remember bits and pieces of President Bush's address to the world, not just the nation. General Shelton came back, and going back to that chapter in the book, and the leadership's observations I made, Jack, everything changed. It's just remarkable. That's what you, as leader, must do when you're the leader.

• 1:23:22Speaker 06

  When he walked into that room at about 10:00 PM, the whole dynamic changed. You don't want to go to sea with a ship captain who's afraid of rough waters, or flying an airplane with a pilot who's afraid of turbulence. You don't want to go to war with someone who's not ready to fight, and Shelton was ready for a fight. He was positive. He was brimming with confidence. He said, we're going to war, and this is not going to be any pinpricks. And we were just pumped. And it's just a turnaround. It's just turned everything around from being on our heels, back heels-

• 1:24:02Jack Murphy?

  Right, feeling helpless.

• 1:24:03Speaker 06

  -at the end of the day. And he came back, and we were ready to look to the future and take the initiative. So, you know, we, we met for a couple hours. After that, it was around midnight. General Myers and I went back to the office. He sat down at his desk, and he said, we got a big day ahead of us. He said, let's go home. So, Edie and I, and I haven't talked about Edie, and I should do that. We lived in Arlington, Virginia at the time, just a few minutes from the Pentagon. Our son was in middle school. And the students had been told that the Pentagon was under attack. And he had images of terrorists

• 1:24:47Speaker 06

  with machine guns roaming the corridors of the Pentagon, and wasn't sure what had happened. But panicked parents in the area were picking kids up. Edie is a retired Army nurse. She's knows her way around the Army. She thought, when she heard the news on the radio, I'll go to Fort Meyer, next to the Pentagon, where General Myers had his quarters, because she's good friends with Mary Jo Myers, his wife, and she would get the best information. But unlike the friendly military police at the gates, they were bristling with armed weapons, and they were geared up. And when she said she wanted to go to Vice Chairman's

• 1:25:26Speaker 06

  house, after she showed her ID card, they just put her over there. They were very tense and suspicious. And she said, I think I should leave. So, she went to her son's middle school. And when he saw Edie in the hallway, our son, you know, thought the worst. So, I talk a lot in the book about, you know, what do you do-

• 1:25:44Jack Murphy?

  Had you called your wife by this point?

• 1:25:46Speaker 06

  It's an obvious question. You know, when the, after the World Trade Centers were hit, I called her and said, turn on the news. I, I don't have time to talk. But Mary Turner, our scheduler, got on one of the helicopters to Sidor, and had the good sense to call everybody on her staff, including Mrs. Myers and Edie. And so, she knew we were safe.

• 1:26:12Speaker 06

  So, when I got home around midnight, you know, the house was dark, but I opened the door, and Edie was standing right there. We just embraced, and she said, you stink of smoke. So, the next morning, it's just remarkable. I, I got there, you know, in the book, Jack, I describe a typical day on the Joint Staff, at least for high-level staff. You know, I was in my desk, at my seat, at 5:15, every day. Not driving to work, not getting coffee. You know, I was going through the message traffic from overnight, arranging desk for General Myers with all the key cables. He arrived at 6:15. He, we

• 1:26:54Speaker 06

  went through the traffic, talked about the data com. 6:30, the CIA briefer arrived with the President's Daily Brief, the PDB, same briefing given in Oval Office. That lasted for 30 minutes. At 7:00 AM, the directors of the Joint Staff came to the conference room. We had an hour meeting with the Joint Staff Directors. At 8:00 AM, Secretary Rumsfeld met with the Vice Chairman and Chairman for an hour. So, by 9:00 AM, there's an old Army recruiting TV commercial said, by 9:00 AM, you've done more as a soldier than most people do an entire day, which was absolutely true. But when I was sitting at my desk at 5:15,

• 1:27:34Speaker 06

  two teams of hijackers were leaving their motel rooms, one in Laurel, Maryland, and one in Herne, Virginia. And they were driving to Dulles Airport. And when General Myers was going at 8:15 to Capitol Hill, they were boarding Flight 77. So, I describe in the, in the book, I just juxtapose the hijackers and what we were doing at those different points of the day. And so, the next morning, when I got there, I got there at a little before 5:00. And, you know, it's less than 24 hours. And there were no police barricades,

• 1:28:15Speaker 06

  no yellow tape, just a black corridor. And I started walking down the corridor, and it got blacker and blacker and blacker. It didn't have a light, and it just spooked me, finally. I couldn't go any farther. Couldn't see. It was wet. And I just knew there were probably my comrades down there. And went back to the office. General Myers came early at 8:30, like everybody was supposed to. They wouldn't allow anybody park, to park in the Pentagon parking lot. So, all the Pentagon employees parked downtown and came

• 1:28:54Speaker 06

  over the, the Potomac River Bridges. It's a great story. And, and I'm gonna tie this all together now, two vignettes.

• 1:29:07Speaker 06

  First, I think it was the day after, maybe it was two days after, we got all these maps out of Afghanistan and we were talking about basing rights and with the J5, General John Abizaid and the J3 and the Vice Chairman and somebody said, well, you know, Kyrgyzstan and Uzbekistan. And I knew about Pakistan and I knew about Afghanistan and I knew very little about Central Asia, the five stans. And there's this 500 mile border with Turkmenistan.

• 1:29:48Speaker 06

  So I naively said, well, gee, what about Turkmenistan? And General Abizaid looked at me and said, you fucking crazy, Matt? That place is an enigma. He said, it's run by this egomaniac whose statue rotates with the sun made of gold. And no way we're going to go there. And that's the first time I ever heard of Turkmenistan. 18 years later, I was the ambassador. So that's one way of wrapping this up. That's three ways. The second is my wife Edie, not only retired major in the Army, but she was a community health nurse and dealt with Army families on a one-to-one basis. And she volunteered

• 1:30:31Speaker 06

  to work for Lieutenant General John Van Alstine, who was a remarkable leader. And they set up banks of phones and meeting rooms to welcome, to help the families of those who lost their loved ones in the Pentagon attack. And Edie worked phone banks and met with people. And you know, it was a tough, tough duty, but she was well equipped to do it. I'm really proud of her. And then the final story. So to bring this all full circle. I was the

• 1:31:15Speaker 06

  ambassador to Turkmenistan in 2021 when Kabul fell and was testimony to my staff, the embassy staff, the diplomats and our defense attaché team, that we had built a relationship with Turkmenistan and it changed a lot in 18 years. So when the planes were evacuating people out of Kabul, I went to the Foreign Minister on a Sunday afternoon and said, can we get landing rights and overflight rights and refueling rights and the ability to transload people? So the planes could leave fully loaded and refuel and crossload people inside Turkmenistan.

• 1:31:58Speaker 06

  And without hesitation, the relationship I had with him was so good. He said, yes, no publicity, want it quiet, but yes, you can do it. You know, it's a crisis. The remarkable thing is, you know, I sent my defense attaché team, my political officer out to this little airport near the Afghan border, actually is a brand new airport for civilian use. And they allowed us to set up there and we were able to do the things that we asked to do. And we're really proud of the team. The last flight out of Kabul, of course, is

• 1:32:39Speaker 06

  all chaos. And the commanding general of the 82nd Airborne Division was famously the last man to get on that plane. Major General, later to become four-star General Chris Donahue.

• 1:32:52Jack Murphy?

  Who was your captain in the Pentagon?

• 1:32:55Speaker 06

  Chris Donahue, who was there at the beginning of this, who fetched General Myers, who found the air quality expert to give us the readings and the skiff. He was there at the beginning, he was there at the end.

• 1:33:08Jack Murphy?

  And I mean, what was it like in the subsequent like weeks and months at the Pentagon after the attack for you?

• 1:33:17Speaker 06

  I write about that too, Jack, because, you know, I write about in the spirit of being a resilient Army family. And now, having brought in my experience, 20 years as a diplomat, 30 years as a soldier, resilient diplomatic families too. Our diplomats overseas face challenges and dangers that most people associate only with the military. After 9/11, anthrax, remember, we were, people in Washington were not only receiving anthrax in the mail, they were dying from it. People forget, people died. And then there were the Washington snipers.

• 1:34:00Jack Murphy?

  Oh, yeah, the DC snipers.

• 1:34:02Speaker 06

  DC snipers. So I remember we had a Volkswagen camper van pop up. Wish we still had it. Remarkable vehicle. And at that time, $300 seemed like a lot of money. And I, so we put $300 in the van and kept the van gassed up at all times. And I told Edie, if something bad happens, don't wait. Grab Daniel from school and head to Tennessee where, you know, her family's from and get safe. Second thing that happened was General Myers had been the Pacific Air Force commander as a four-star, and they invited him back on that dramatic

• 1:34:44Speaker 06

  day of 7 December to commemorate Pearl Harbor Day. And we got on a US Air Force G5, Gulfstream Five corporate jet, and we're flying out to Hawaii so he could deliver that speech. He was then the Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff. And we were over the Pacific Ocean and Flight Crew came back and said, hey, Colonel K, you got a, you got a phone call from Washington. And I picked up the phone in the bulkhead and it was General John Abizaid, who had become from the J5, the Director of the Joint Staff.

• 1:35:20Jack Murphy?

  He became Commander over Iraq.

• 1:35:22Speaker 06

  He became four-star CENTCOM Commander. And I had served with him before too, Army General. Matt! And he sounded real cheery, which is not good. And I said, yes, sir. Right back at you. He said, listen, I don't want you to worry about anything, but, God, we tested all the post, post office boxes in the Pentagon post office for anthrax and yours came up positive. And I said, he said, don't worry. He says, we got a doctor waiting for you at Hickam Air Force Base in Hawaii. He's going to give you Cipro and we're going to get you all pumped up and it's going to be okay. And I said, General, I'm not worried

• 1:36:05Speaker 06

  about me. My son, Daniel, we kept him out of school this morning. He's, he's running a fever. He's probably got anthrax. Can you call my wife? He said, I'll take care of everything. So, you know, parents' worst nightmare, your kid's sick, maybe in danger.

• 1:36:20Speaker 00

  It's big, spooky and wicked. Spinquest.com. Grab a handful of Halloween treats like blackjack, bubble craps and slots. All your freaking faves in one beautiful place. Spinquest.com. And right now, new monsters get $30 coin packs for 10. Visit Spinquest.com or download the app tonight.

• 1:36:44Speaker 01

  Spinquest is a free-to-play social casino. Void where prohibited. Visit Spinquest.com for more details.

• 1:36:51Speaker 02

  OnDeck is built to back small businesses like yours. Whether you're buying equipment, expanding your team, or bridging cash flow gaps, OnDeck's loans up to $400,000 help make it happen fast. Rated A+ by the Better Business Bureau and earning thousands of five-star TrustPilot reviews, OnDeck delivers funding you can count on. Apply in minutes at ondeck.com. Depending on certain loan attributes, your business loan may be issued by OnDeck or Celtic Bank. OnDeck does not lend in North Dakota. All loans and amounts subject to lender approval. 911, what's your emergency? Please help us. They're everywhere.

• 1:37:26Speaker 01

  We think they're murder hornets. 911 Nashville returns.

• 1:37:31Speaker 04

  What's a homicide detective doing here? Three bodies on the ground.

• 1:37:34Speaker 01

  With emergencies of biblical proportions.

• 1:37:37Speaker 04

  Owls and swarms upon you and upon your people. That's one of the plagues of the Bible. And somebody's unleashing them on Nashville.

• 1:37:44Speaker 01

  Ryan Phillippe joins 911 Nashville. All new Thursdays on ABC, next day on Hulu.

• 1:37:50Speaker 06

  And so they, they tested the post office box again and it was negative the second time, but they made us go through Cipro, the whole thing of it. The sniper killed this beautiful FBI agent, a woman, not more than a mile or two from her house. I mean, just everything seemed to be.

• 1:38:13Jack Murphy?

  Yeah, spiraling.

• 1:38:15Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 1:38:16Jack Murphy?

  One of the things that I try to bring to the surface in some of these interviews sometimes, especially because I know younger people watch these a lot of times and people who are thinking about joining the military. And one of the things I try to communicate to people who are younger than I am is just how afraid everyone was at that moment in American history. And I don't think people today who didn't live through it really understand what that feeling was like.

• 1:38:42Speaker 06

  I remember the gratitude of people in Los Angeles had when, right after, shortly after General Myers was sworn in, the public affairs people made a plan for him to travel around America.

• 1:39:01Speaker 06

  I guess you could say to rally support, not that it needed to be done, but the, I forgot, I wish I could remember the venue, but there's a, there's like a world council, people interested in international affairs and just community spirited people have guest speakers come in. And we flew out to Los Angeles, he gave a speech there. But what I remember was how much gratitude they expressed because they felt kind of left out, being so far from New York and Washington.

• 1:39:32Jack Murphy?

  Right.

• 1:39:33Speaker 06

  But, you know, to go to your point, the whole country was affected by this and they didn't want to be forgotten. They didn't want their emotions to be ignored. And of course, now people talk about, you know, how the country came together and somebody said, you know, is that still possible? Today, I say absolutely yes. You know, the right, not because of tragedy alone. I mean, that could happen. The right leaders, the right moments, the right vision, you know, I, as I said, right at the beginning of our talk, you know, I'm a child in 60s, not that I look like a child anymore. I used to have a full head of hair. On 9/11, you could find pictures of me. He won't recognize me. Full

• 1:40:15Speaker 06

  head of hair. But yeah, I just believe in this country and our ethos and our, and our values. One of the great things about being a United States ambassador is every 4th of July, you host the biggest ass party you can host. And you just, we had 400 people at our 4th of July events, my five years there, except for COVID. And boy, I just love talking about the Declaration of Independence and we hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal. And it means something in a country like Turkmenistan. They had, they're not an Islamic republic, they're not in a dictatorship, but it's an

• 1:40:58Speaker 06

  authoritarian government. And all those hidden messages in the Declaration of Independence, they understand, they get it, they want it. And it just makes me so proud to be an American. And so, the more we talk about those values and things, I think, the greater opportunity we have to be the nation that still is that beacon on the hill.

• 1:41:22Jack Murphy?

  How long after 9/11 did you retire from the military?

• 1:41:26Speaker 06

  I had a great opportunity. I was General Myers exec for the first year of the War on Terror. We were, traveled extensively. I've been mentioning, name dropping generals. I just wrote a letter and sent a copy of my book to General Buster Hagenbeck, who commanded the 10th Infantry Division, the first full division in Afghanistan. I think they got there in 2001, maybe early 2002. General Myers and I went and visited him. I was a battalion commander under him when he was a brigade commander. And I wanted him to have my book.

• 1:42:08Speaker 06

  So we, you know, I had these experiences of, we went to Afghanistan, 2001, 2002, traveled all around the region. And what didn't completely click with me, because even though you're the chairman's exec, you don't know everything, is we started to make visits in the region in preparation for the invasion of Iraq. And almost always, General Myers would have me in meetings, I was in meetings with heads of state, taking notes, and a couple meetings, one-on-one. And that's what it was about. We started to lay the groundwork for the invasion

• 1:42:49Speaker 06

  of Iraq. And then, in the summer of 2003, I'm sorry, yeah, summer of 2002, General Myers said, you know, you've been going almost 24/7 for a long time. Just had a meeting with the Vice President, and he's looking for somebody to set up Homeland Security Section within the Office of the Vice President. And I think he'd be perfect for it. You're interested in national security affairs, he's looking for someone with your credentials. So I was detailed as a Colonel, wearing civilian clothes every day to work for Vice President Cheney, which was absolutely stunning, remarkable experience.

• 1:43:34Jack Murphy?

  And this was part of standing up DHS?

• 1:43:37Speaker 06

  Good question, Jack. I can't say with certainty, and Vice President Cheney's died, and I don't remember if it's in his memoir, but it was pretty clear to me, he was not in favor of establishing a Department of Homeland Security.

• 1:43:54Jack Murphy?

  Interesting.

• 1:43:54Speaker 06

  I'm almost, I'm much more than 50% sure that he was not in favor of it, but that's what, you know, the powers that be, to include his boss, the President, wanted. And when the decision was made, like a good soldier, not that he was one, but he said, okay, you know, that's what we're gonna do. And so, he wanted a little cell, there were three of us, to work Homeland Security issues, because he had Ambassador Eric Adelman, who's a friend of mine, and later Ambassador Tori Newland, as his national security advisors. We were his Homeland Security advisors. But we didn't participate in particularly in standing

• 1:44:39Speaker 06

  up DHS. But I worked on two very significant projects, which were the privilege of a lifetime at that point. One, we had, no kidding, very credible, not rumors, there was going to be a terrorist attack on subway system in New York. And he called me in, the Vice President called me and said, I want to know everything you could tell me about Onshinrikyo and the...

• 1:45:07Jack Murphy?

  The Japanese cult?

• 1:45:08Speaker 06

  Yes, the attack on the Japanese subway system that took place in, I forgot what year.

• 1:45:13Jack Murphy?

  Yeah, 1990s.

• 1:45:14Speaker 06

  So there's a, for those of you who've never had the honor of serving in the White House, the Eisenhower Executive Office Building, adjacent to it, has a beautiful library. Just most beautiful library you could imagine. And I went to the library in there and said, I got a project for the VP and I need to know everything I can possibly know about the Onshinrikyo attack on subway system. And, you know, they did all the gathering of all the research. And next thing I know, I'm getting a tour of the subway system with the chief of subway police, what is the?

• 1:45:55Jack Murphy?

  Metro?

• 1:45:56Speaker 06

  No, not the metro.

• 1:45:57Jack Murphy?

  We have the MTA here in New York, yeah.

• 1:45:59Speaker 06

  Yeah, the New Jersey, New York, Port Authority.

• 1:46:04Jack Murphy?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:46:05Speaker 06

  And the Washington metro system, I got a tour of that. It's just a brief to Vice President. And that was just really, really neat.

• 1:46:16Jack Murphy?

  And they, they got word of a pending Al Qaeda attack, planned attack?

• 1:46:22Speaker 06

  Obviously didn't happen.

• 1:46:25Jack Murphy?

  Yeah.

• 1:46:26Speaker 06

  And I can't tell you, you know, why it didn't, or if we shut down that cell or what. I really didn't know. But that was one of the projects I worked on. The second one was really interesting, was if you remember during this time, two SA7s were launched at a commercial airliner in Africa. It was a...

• 1:46:47Jack Murphy?

  1977 Rhodesia.

• 1:46:49Speaker 06

  Well, no, this was current, you know, a current 21st century. They launched two missiles, they missed because they didn't super elevate or did super elevate. It was an Israeli charter jet, 737. And so, they stood up a task force in Washington. And the Vice President said, you know, you're my rep on that task force, you could speak for me. This is a leadership lesson. And I learned this when I joined the Vice President's staff. When I left that meeting, my comrades, my colleagues came up and said, you heard

• 1:47:31Speaker 06

  what he said? I said, what'd he say? What'd he say? He said, you could speak for me. You don't use your boss's name unless you tell him. You don't say, the Vice President wants me to do this.

• 1:47:41Jack Murphy?

  You got a get out of jail free card from Dick Cheney?

• 1:47:44Speaker 06

  Yeah, that's BS. Well, you use your own skills.

• 1:47:49Jack Murphy?

  With discretion, yes.

• 1:47:51Speaker 06

  Your own influence. And you never use the boss's name unless he says you can.

• 1:47:56Jack Murphy?

  Did you have to pull that out?

• 1:47:57Speaker 06

  I didn't even realize. He said that until my colleague said, you know, that's a big deal. He doesn't say that often. So, it was another leadership lesson. I had no idea I was going to tell this story, but you're good at drawing stories out of people. So I went to the task force meeting. And this is inter-agency. And there must have been 60, 70 people in the room. And I don't want to cast dispersions on anybody in particular. I don't even know this woman's name, and it's a long time ago. And the agency's a famous one, and they've, they've changed radically since then, I hope for the better. I think so. But this is a lesson about bureaucracies and how we are locked in our lanes.

• 1:48:41Jack Murphy?

  Right.

• 1:48:41Speaker 06

  So, the meeting started, I don't remember who chaired the meeting, probably had to be someone from the National Security Council on the President's staff. And I'm sitting in the room with 50, 60 other people. And just as the meeting started, some woman jumps up and she says, in a very indignant voice, my name is Jane Doe. I'm from the FBI. That stands for the Federal Bureau of Investigation. We investigate things, we don't prevent things. I don't know what anybody else thought in the room. This is a year, a year and a half

• 1:49:23Speaker 06

  after 9/11. And she's, for all intents and purposes, said, we're not in the prevention of a 9/11.

• 1:49:31Jack Murphy?

  I'm pretty sure FBI is in the anti-terrorism business.

• 1:49:34Speaker 06

  It was just stunning. But, you know, it's just, we get locked into these things.

• 1:49:39Jack Murphy?

  Yeah.

• 1:49:40Speaker 06

  The third thing that...

• 1:49:43Speaker 06

  I didn't realize was significant until I came back. My colleagues from the White House, after I had retired from the Army and started working at the State Department, invited me over to the White House mess. They said, you know, you've got a lasting legacy. And I didn't realize it, and he said, here's what it is. You put that matrix together for the Vice President. And what I did was, I looked at every major city, Chicago, LA, Denver, New York, you name it, and what NBC equipment they had in first responder vehicles. What's in the trunk of police cars? What's in the fire engines? And of course, it was all different because they're local.

• 1:50:22Speaker 06

  And then we met with the experts on what would you want a typical fire engine, police car, ambulance to carry? Can't carry everything.

• 1:50:32Jack Murphy?

  Right.

• 1:50:33Speaker 06

  And then we funded that. Vice President went to Congress and got the funding for it. So something tangible happened from something I did in Washington. Those things actually ended up in the cars and trucks of first responders.

• 1:50:50Jack Murphy?

  What were the, what kind of equipment did you have? Like protective masks?

• 1:50:55Speaker 06

  Yeah, I'm sure it was.

• 1:50:56Jack Murphy?

  Detectors, detection?

• 1:50:57Speaker 06

  Yeah, I really don't remember, but yes.

• 1:51:01Jack Murphy?

  So tell us about retiring from the military and moving into diplomacy.

• 1:51:06Speaker 06

  Yeah. I guess it goes to another leadership lesson I have for junior officers and young leaders. Lifetime goals. You know, I wrote down at a young age that I wanted to go to Washington, work in a policy arena. That's how I ended up going to that War College Fellowship instead of a regular War College slot. But, you know, when you travel with the Secretary of State, Warren Christopher for a year, Madeleine Albright, is not just a Secretary of State. She was a Secretary of State. You do that for three years, boy, that diplomacy bug just bites you.

• 1:51:49Speaker 06

  And I learned as much from General Myers as the Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff as I did from the Secretaries. He is a statesman, not just a chairman. I had the privilege in three years with the Secretaries, one year with General Myers as Chairman, and another year when he was Vice Chairman, really five years, of sitting in this close to heads of state, kings, prime ministers, countless foreign ministers. So I felt I was well-equipped to become a diplomat. And I knew my Army career wasn't going to last forever. And I was in the Sit Room, working for Vice President Cheney in the Situation Room in

• 1:52:30Speaker 06

  the White House, and Warren Christopher's former Chief of Staff, Maura Hardy, was there. Ambassador Hardy was the Assistant Secretary of State for Counsel Affairs. And she said, Matt, I haven't seen you in years. What are you doing? She said, listen, you got to retire from the Army at some point. I got a job for you. You have to qualify for it. It's in the Senior Executive Service. But I know you'll qualify, so why don't you apply? And it's a whole rigamarole, and it's not easy, and you go through it. So, yeah, that's how I ended up there. It was the biggest, is the biggest bureau in the Department of State. I was the Executive Director for Counsel Affairs.

• 1:53:15Speaker 06

  And it was a significant job at that point because that's when we were going to change our entire visa system, to biometric passports, biometric visas, different criteria for taking fingerprints at the visa line. So I was there to oversee all of that. But I wanted to be an ambassador, and I had goals. And I don't know, you never know how you're going to reach a goal. If you're foolish, if you're trying to map it out. I just know that off in a distance, when opportunities arose, you know, I would avail myself. And here's a big difference, Jack. You've been in the Army.

• 1:53:58Speaker 06

  No self-respecting Army officer would openly campaign to be a Brigade Commander or a Division Commander. I mean, okay, yes, you know, you maybe drop a hint, but it's just beyond the pale. But at the State Department, and I admire this, I want to make it very clear, you got to ask. You got to campaign. You've got to put yourself out there.

• 1:54:24Jack Murphy?

  They want to see who wants it.

• 1:54:26Speaker 06

  Yeah. You know, Army command positions are centrally selected. You don't ask for it. They just put your name in the hopper, and then the board meets in Washington, and they look at everybody's file, and they want to go down, and they draw the line, and everybody above that line gets selected. But the State Department, you can't even know what diplomatic positions are open unless you ask for the list. Usually about 30 embassies are coming open every cycle. And so you even have to have enough courage to say, can I see the list of ambassadorships that are coming open in this cycle? And I got the list, there are about 30. And I'll try to make this short, because it took me three tries. And my dear wife said, you're not going to try a third time?

• 1:55:10Speaker 06

  And I said, yeah, I want to do this. And I saw a couple of countries I thought are really as well-qualified. And so then you knock on doors. You see every Assistant Secretary. I saw every Under Secretary who was willing to meet with me, and I made an appointment to meet with the Deputy Secretary. And I attribute this to my Army training, not to me personally. But when I was done, the Number Two Person, Deputy Cabinet Secretary, she said, that's the best interview I have ever had with anybody for any job. And it's just Army training of, you know, being ready for any question that comes, anticipating,

• 1:55:53Speaker 06

  being open and honest, having EQ, emotional intelligence, reading body language in people. And then when you don't get the question you want, being able to kind of twist it till you get your points in. So, this is a great story. I had an Under Secretary who was kind of my champion, and he said, it looks good, looks good. And I was working on a secret project involving Karina Peninsula, and I had to give a briefing at a military headquarters in Hawaii. So I flew out to Honolulu. I was feeling pretty good about everything. And I was the first briefer in this conference we were having.

• 1:56:36Speaker 06

  I forgot which of the outposts, our Army posts, we're doing this at. I didn't know Hawaii very well, I'd been there a few times, but I had GPS in my car. And I got up in the morning, looked at my phone, and it, call Washington, call the Under Secretary. Where are you? Call me now. And I said, oh, my God. I picked up the phone, and it's the Under Secretary, and he said, the Deputy's Committee is going to meet in two hours. You're hanging by a thread. You need two more ambassadors, or former ambassadors, to weigh in on your behalf. So I get in the car, and I got the GPS set, and I'm driving, and I'm calling people in Washington.

• 1:57:17Speaker 06

  I find two ambassadors, can you call, you know, the Deputy Secretary? Get out of the briefing. And I look at my phone, and my Under Secretary said, done, exclamation point. And I thought, hallelujah. So I was slated to go to a small African country, which is fine, I didn't care. I wanted to be captain of my ship. And don't forget to ask me about that. I wanted to lead and to be out there on the front lines, in the field. So when I got back to Washington, Under Secretary said, you don't want to go to that little country. You could go here, you could go here, you could go to Turkmenistan, you could go here.

• 1:58:01Speaker 06

  And I said, Turkmenistan? 700-mile border with Iran, 500-mile border with Afghanistan, where we're fighting, former Soviet Republic? Wow. But I don't speak Russian. And the Russian speakers will elbow me out, and then I'll be left with nothing. I'm happy, just leave it alone. I'm happy going to Africa. Two weeks later, after I've been studying Portuguese, you're going to Turkmenistan. And so I was just thrilled beyond belief. A country with that kind of geographic significance. And of course, everybody, you know, there was a British adventure tourist writer.

• 1:58:46Speaker 06

  Adventure tourism was big for a while. And he went to Turkmenistan and wrote about it and said it's a cross between Norad Korea and Las Vegas. Because it's a white marble city, all white cars, all white buildings. But at night, because it's all white marble, it's a light show. Everything's lit up with neon and colored lights and laser beams. It's like Las Vegas. It's just lights up the desert.

• 1:59:15Jack Murphy?

  So in addition to that and the geographical location, tell us about Turkmenistan and how our relationship evolved with them from when you first heard about the country. It sounded like it was on nine 11 or close to it. To what 18 years later, when you're the ambassador.

• 1:59:33Speaker 06

  It's when official visitors come to Washington or came from Washington. The first thing I would say is Turkmenistan will surprise you. Almost always in a positive way. Why? Well, first of all, it's enigmatic and it is a very close country relative to other countries. But as I immediately arrived in them, this is not North Korea. And I resent people who try to characterize it like that. They don't make bombs. They don't threaten their neighbors. They're a neutral country by constitution and they walk that talk. They really practice it to the extent that it's to my advantage and disadvantage. It's to my advantage as the American ambassador because as a former Soviet republic,

• 2:00:17Speaker 06

  Putin wants to draw them in. But they have a legitimate reason to say, we're happy to cooperate, but, but.

• 2:00:26Jack Murphy?

  Yeah.

• 2:00:26Speaker 06

  Only this far because we're a neutral country. And, you know, I could very legitimately tell them it's, you don't have to play to Russia all the time. We're here too. And by the way, you're neutral. So you have to play. You have to play fair.

• 2:00:42Jack Murphy?

  Right.

• 2:00:43Speaker 06

  And they did. It's positive neutrality. That's what they call it because they want to be engaged. They don't want to be a little Switzerland mining their own business. They want to be a regional player in terms of conferences and talks and to be at the table when Central Asia is being discussed.

• 2:01:03Jack Murphy?

  But they're not going to weigh in on the conflict in like Afghanistan or Iran or Ukraine.

• 2:01:08Speaker 06

  Very hard to get them to make a political statement.

• 2:01:10Jack Murphy?

  Yeah.

• 2:01:10Speaker 06

  But I'm gonna.

• 2:01:16Jack Murphy?

  Come on.

• 2:01:20Speaker 06

  The, I had a, when I got there in 2019, it was just, it was a friendly relationship, wasn't frosty at all. But it was just perfunctory. And I was just determined to turn on the charm and to use what, and I think people now maybe look, cast aspersions on soft power, but to use everything I had in my toolkit to draw them in, to look to the West, American in particular, but to the West in general, not just to the East, geographically and politically because of their former Soviet ties. That's where they naturally would look.

• 2:02:04Speaker 06

  Now, this is the Silk Road. They're natural entrepreneurs. It's in their DNA. I mean, my wife, Edie, created the Women's Economic Society of Turkmenistan. Started with seven women who wanted to trade their handicrafts or code and learn. By the time she left, five years later, 2,000 members in all the provincial capitals. Because they're traders, they're, they're, they're, they're perfect for capitalism, frankly. So I did a lot of work in an area I knew nothing about, business relations.

• 2:02:41Speaker 06

  And there's an American, US Turkmenistan Business Council, US TBC. A guy named Eric Stewart runs out of the Washington area. And big companies are there. Boeing, General Electric Turbines just power that country. All the Turkmenistan Air Fleet, Boeing. There's a Jack Nicklaus golf course there. Jack Nicklaus has been there 17 times. No kidding. So big companies, yes, but I was drawing in smaller countries, companies. It's the fourth largest gas, natural gas reserves in the world. And, you know, I campaigned hard to get them to make more inroads

• 2:03:24Speaker 06

  to send natural gas to Europe, rather than have the Europeans buying gas from Russia.

• 2:03:30Jack Murphy?

  Right.

• 2:03:30Speaker 06

  And before Nord Stream 2 was blown up, that was important. When Russia invaded Ukraine, everything changed dramatically. One of the things that I think it's fair to say Turkmenistan values as much as neutrality is stability. And Ukraine, starting a war, not only with Europe, in Europe, but on the margins of Eurasia or part of Eurasia, was extremely uncomfortable for the Turkmen. Stability, that's what they're looking for.

• 2:04:14Speaker 06

  So there was no doubt in my mind, they would hew towards being a stable, I'm sorry, and reliable neutral country. But it was starting to shade towards the West.

• 2:04:30Jack Murphy?

  Because they were uncomfortable with what Russia was doing.

• 2:04:33Speaker 06

  When, you know, there's a big celebration on the 9th of May to celebrate the end of World War II. And in the Soviet days, it was the biggest ceremony on Red Square you can imagine. Now, all the former Soviet republics had soldiers who fought in that war. So in Ashgabat, the capital of Turkmenistan, on a hilltop, there is the most amazingly beautiful, emotional tribute to those who lost their lives in the Great War. And on the other side, by the way, is a beautiful tribute

• 2:05:16Speaker 06

  to those who lost their lives in the 1948 earthquake that devastated the capital city of Ashgabat. Tens of thousands of people died. Oh my God. So on 9th May, all the diplomatic corps lines up to lay wreaths and flowers. And it's a somber occasion and it's dramatic. And a lot of people who aren't diplomats don't realize it, but in most countries, you line up by order of rank as diplomats. And the rank is determined by how long you've served in country. So the, by chance, the Russian ambassador had been there for well over 12 years on 9th May, 2022.

• 2:06:00Speaker 06

  And was therefore at the far right of this row of ambassadors. And we're all holding bouquets of roses. And President pulls up four and a half months after the invasion of Ukraine. He walks by the dean of the diplomatic corps, the Russian ambassador, and walks straight to the Ukrainian ambassador and embraces him. I knew then that the world had changed in that part of the world.

• 2:06:31Jack Murphy?

  It's really fascinating, I think, with those Central Asian countries that because of where they are geographically, they have to play the game with Russia to some extent. But they're not a puppet states. They're independent countries and they have a will of their own. And there's a great book called Great Games Local Rules.

• 2:06:52Speaker 06

  I've never heard of it.

• 2:06:53Jack Murphy?

  Alexander Cooley wrote the book. And he makes the point in it that these countries in Central Asia actually very shrewdly determine their own destiny and play Russia and America off against one another.

• 2:07:07Speaker 06

  Being a neutral country constitutionally puts them in a much better spot than their neighbors. They, because their neighbors like to say, oh, we don't want to pick sides. But they could say, it's in our constitution. And they mean it. The other thing that happened was that, you know, we made these inroads, inroads economically with American businesses.

• 2:07:33Speaker 06

  Geopolitically, you know, I really think the Europeans were much more reluctant to deal with a country like Turkmenistan with a very spotty, if I'm being generous, human rights record than we were. And, you know, I had to be very careful not to reward them for bad behavior, but I found it frustrating when Washington wouldn't reward them for good behavior. There were nineteen political prisoners that were eventually released during my time as ambassador. And the deputy foreign minister came up to me and said, "We're releasing

• 2:08:15Speaker 06

  them because of your insistence." And that's the kind of good diplomacy that we practice as Americans. But you just can't use a stick. That, you know, my predecessors had tried to get those prisoners out. But I was trying to use both carrot and stick. And luckily, I had leaders in Washington who granted me that leeway. And so, you know, by the time we left, you know, we had made some real progress. The signature initiative for my

• 2:08:52Speaker 06

  wife Edie and me dealt with women and expanding their opportunities. It's not an Islamic Republic. They're not veiled. You could wear blue jeans. But women are definitely in a patriotic patriarchal society. Women riding the backseat of a car. And in general, there's no rule, no law, but, you know, that's what's expected, just as an example. But by the time we left, we had made some real inroads. And I had this thing about women driving licenses.

• 2:09:32Speaker 06

  We had over three hundred locally employed staff at the embassy. And I found that at some point, there was something happened in the country, and young women were no longer being able to pass their driving test. We had a few women in the embassy who had driving licenses, but they had gotten them years earlier. And now they were having trouble renewing them. So I didn't, that didn't sit well with me because, and this is what I used as my excuse, some of the women could not get promoted in our embassy hierarchy without a driving license. So I used that as leverage to say, "Well, I'm not trying

• 2:10:12Speaker 06

  to tell you how to run your, your business here in Afghanistan, I mean Turkmenistan, and who could get a license. I'm not trying to tell you how to, you know, treat women. I'm just trying to get my women on equal footing so they could get the next promotion." That's all it's about. Of course, they knew what I was all about. I was about women's rights and trying to get them something that they deserved. Do you take the test as a young man? Maybe four or five times, you pass. You take it as a woman? We had women in the embassy, took it fifty-five times.

• 2:10:42Jack Murphy?

  That's crazy.

• 2:10:43Speaker 06

  They couldn't pass. So, you know, I have a favorite saying, "A good diplomat never loses his or her temper unintentionally." Get it? It's okay to lose your temper intentionally. So I went to the driving testing station with five of my embassy employees, Turkmen women. And we had practiced the test with them dozens of times. And, you know, my American staff picked these five gals out and said, you know, they're ready. And the first one came out, and I said, "You passed?" She said, "No, I knew I screwed up in the parallel parking." Second one came out, "I'm not sure." And the third one came out, she says, "I

• 2:11:25Speaker 06

  passed. I passed. I saw it. I saw it. But he changed it." "I want to talk to who's in charge here." Oh, my God. I raised a fit. And, "Calm down, calm." They called the foreign ministry. The desk officer, the American desk officer came flying down the road. "Mr. Ambassador, please calm down. Please calm down." I made a big scene. And the next day, the deputy foreign minister called me. He said, "Let's talk." "Give me a list. Tell me who you want to pass." Jeez. He said, "Mr. Ambassador." He says, "This is our culture. You know, it changes slowly. Give us time." So I went

• 2:12:10Speaker 06

  to my deputy, and we made a tactical error. You know, I was thinking, "We'll give her our best drivers." And she, my deputy said, "Let's give her, we got forty-four women. Let's give them forty-four names." Nothing happened. So a year went by, and I kept beating the drum and went to the foreign minister. He rolled his eyes. He said, and I'm good friends with him. I had a great relationship. He says, "You really want to talk about driving licenses?" You know, "There's a whole list of things we need to talk about." And I said, I got back to the embassy, and there was a note that said, "Give them a list." And

• 2:12:47Speaker 06

  so this time, we chose five women. And then, to finish this story, when I hit the five year mark, my successor still hadn't been confirmed by the Senate. But I told everybody, "Five years in Turkmenistan is enough. I'm in my seventies. It's time to retire." And we had a Fourth of July celebration you couldn't beat. And that was my farewell as well. And when we got back a week later, a week after I left, I got the sweetest note and photograph from one of the six women that were on the list. And she said, "I passed."

• 2:13:32Speaker 06

  And on it was a handwritten note that I put in my personalized stationery tour, saying, "You are a woman of courage. You have never given up. You have a big heart. I know that whatever you do, you will be successful in," something like that. Picture that note and a picture of her driving license. Sweetest thing I ever got.

• 2:13:54Jack Murphy?

  Do you feel like Turkmenistan is generally heading in a positive direction, or is it backsliding in some ways?

• 2:14:02Speaker 06

  Oh, I, you know, I've been gone for two years. So, you know, I have to give you that caveat. But absolutely, the trajectory is definitely positive. They're more engaged. Their economy is stronger than it has been. We still get notes from entrepreneurs. What I would like them to do is diversify more, not only in different sectors, but as I said...

• 2:14:31Jack Murphy?

  Mostly natural gas?

• 2:14:33Speaker 06

  Yes, and textiles. But the fourth largest natural gas reserves in the world should be going to Europe. And what they need is a pipeline under the Caspian. Azerbaijan is on the other side of that. It's a little of them, a little of Turkmenistan. But, you know, this excuse that we've heard for years that the Russians will stop it, you know, I don't think that holds anymore. I think if they really want to do it, they could do it. Their other big, their biggest seller is eighty percent of that natural gas goes to China. And I think China views them as a good provider, and they think China is a good supplier. They're not in debt to China. The debt trap you've heard so much about

• 2:15:16Speaker 06

  doesn't apply to them and Turkmenistan. But, you know, I think, diversify. Look to the West, not just to the Far East or to the Near East. And they do have a pipeline they're making to Herat with the plan to go to Pakistan and on to India. It's happy.

• 2:15:36Jack Murphy?

  Interesting. So can I travel there without diplomatic immunity?

• 2:15:41Speaker 06

  I'm glad you asked. As I said before, Turkmenistan will surprise you. For anybody who's got an ounce of adventure in them, go to Turkmenistan. Yes, you could go. But, it is the but, they welcome tour groups. So if you want to go by yourself, you're probably not going to get a visa. But it's very simple to go online and find these tour groups. And when you go in a tour group, you're not constrained. You know, you can't go here. You can't go there. They'll set up, first of all, it's probably wise because the road network, the transportation network is not set up for tourists. And so you need that

• 2:16:21Speaker 06

  kind of help anyway, unless you're the biggest adventurer. But when you're, when you're there, you have the freedom to look around and to experience the culture of Turkmenistan, which is extraordinary. This is the Silk Road. They have the Seljuk archaeological, eleventh, twelfth century Seljuk archaeological sites that are being excavated. Some of them are being renovated or excavated with the help of American taxpayer money through the Ambassador's Fund for Cultural Preservation. They are extraordinary.

• 2:16:56Jack Murphy?

  Is it going to be like a UNESCO site?

• 2:16:58Speaker 06

  It's a little different than UNESCO. You know, it's a pittance of money. But that big plaque that says, "From the people of the United States of America," is on these archaeological sites. And they're dramatic. The Silk Road caravan surays, where the camels would come in, the traders would camp in the center of these, these beautiful caravan sites. And the camels would be on the outside, and they're spaced throughout the Silk Road. The city of Merv was once the largest city in the world until Genghis Khan came and

• 2:17:40Speaker 06

  killed everybody. And Genghis Khan killed every man, woman, and child in the city. And it never fully recovered. But the ruins of Merv are dramatic because they're a superstructure. So you're not just looking down into an archaeological pit. The superstructure is still there and intact. And to think, tens of thousands of people lost their lives there in the twelfth century is just haunting and moving. People are warm. They're generous. This is the Silk Road generosity you read about. They, if there is some anti-Americanism, we encounter, looking at my wife here, no. I mean...

• 2:18:26Speaker 06

  Just a great country to visit.

• 2:18:28Jack Murphy?

  You know, I'd be interested to hear, you know, what I'm taking away from this conversation with you is that you're a big advocate of soft power.

• 2:18:36Speaker 00

  Yo, it's Bluff here. I've been giving out key-sized candy bars to all the kids all day, and luckily karma was right around the corner. This Halloween, Spinquest is giving away a scary good deal, thirty for ten dollar coin pack. They have over a thousand games available, and with instant cash prize redemptions, there's no waiting like those other schmucks. Don't miss out. Go to Spinquest.com or download the app right now.

• 2:18:59Speaker 01

  Spinquest is a free-to-play social casino. Void where prohibited. Visit Spinquest.com for more details.

• 2:19:06Speaker 03

  OnDeck is built to back small businesses like yours. Whether you're buying equipment, expanding your team, or bridging cash flow gaps, OnDeck's loans up to $400,000 make it happen fast. Rated A+ by the Better Business Bureau and earning thousands of five-star TrustPilot reviews, OnDeck delivers funding you can count on. Apply in minutes at ondeck.com. Depending on certain loan attributes, your business loan may be issued by OnDeck or Celtic Bank. OnDeck does not lend in North Dakota. All loans and amounts subject to lender approval. 911, what's your emergency?

• 2:19:38Speaker 02

  Please help us. They're everywhere.

• 2:19:40Speaker 03

  We think they're murder hornets. 911 Nashville returns.

• 2:19:45Speaker 04

  It's a homicide detective doing here. Three bodies on the ground.

• 2:19:48Speaker 03

  With emergencies of biblical proportions.

• 2:19:50Speaker 04

  I will send swarms upon you and upon your people. That's one of the plagues of the Bible. And somebody's unleashing them on Nashville.

• 2:19:57Speaker 03

  Brian Phillippe, 911 Nashville. All new Thursdays on ABC, next day on Hulu.

• 2:20:03Jack Murphy?

  War and diplomacy, and the idea that America can do good around the world in a cooperative sort of framework. Could you make the case for folks out there for soft power in the 21st century from the United States?

• 2:20:18Speaker 06

  Absolutely. It's inexpensive, number one. It doesn't cost much. We had five cultural centers in Turkmenistan. They were the most subscribed in the world of any American embassy. We have embassies around the world. Why? Because they restrict internet use in Turkmenistan. And at the cultural center in Ashgabat, there's no restrictions. So kids, of course, love to come there. But they have 3D printers, American movie night. It's just wholesome. It's, you know, giving kids an opportunity to practice their English. So in this world

• 2:21:01Speaker 06

  that not only live in now, but for our children and our grandchildren, do you want them learning Russian? Do you want them learning Chinese? Or you want them learning English? I know what I want them to learn: English. It makes it much more natural to look to the West than to the East. And any good soldier will tell you that going to war is the last resort, not the first. So we need people who, when things go wrong, we could pick up the phone and call, and call in our CHIPS, ask for favors, or ask them to not do something. When regionally, not necessarily in their country, we need that kind of support. And I go right back

• 2:21:47Speaker 06

  to the evacuation of Kabul, when we were desperate for overflight rights and landing rights. And we had built the kind of relationship where I could go to the Foreign Minister and ask for that kind of help.

• 2:22:00Jack Murphy?

  And they were cool with it as long as you kept it low-key?

• 2:22:02Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 2:22:05Jack Murphy?

  So you finish your time as the ambassador. You have a second retirement, I take it, at this point?

• 2:22:12Speaker 06

  Well, you're good at drawing out stories. So let me go right back to the first question you asked me about my upbringing. I told you my dad was the sweetest man you ever know. When I retired from the Army, I was working in the White House for Dick Cheney. And at my retirement ceremony, Cheney loved the military, and I actually went with him to the battlefield of Chickamaqua, to walk the battlefield where his great-great-grandfather fought.

• 2:22:48Jack Murphy?

  Wow.

• 2:22:49Speaker 06

  And I had taught military history, and had spent two days in the battlefield teaching history there. And so we went. So he said, you know, Colonel, you've been driven all your life by goals and, you know, military promotions, and sending your sights on one assignment after another. What are you going to do in retirement? I mean, what's your goal? And without knowing he was going to ask me that, and without thinking, I said, "My goal is to be more like my father, sweetest man in the world." And I still haven't gotten there. So when I retired from 20 years as a, over 20 years as being a diplomat, I was really

• 2:23:33Speaker 06

  anxious to do, I wanted to keep doing. Somebody's big compliment to me, I overheard someone said, "Nobody could out-energize the ambassador." I got up every morning at 5:15, and I ran or swam at the embassy pool. My bodyguards, when I first got there, could not keep up with me. These are big, hulking guys.

• 2:23:56Jack Murphy?

  The DSS guys?

• 2:23:58Speaker 06

  Yeah. I embarrassed them so much, they got buff. They got in shape. Then I would have breakfast, and I would still be at work at the embassy before anybody else. Even that's the kind of life I led. And so I wanted to be, I wanted to write. I wanted to write that book, because I'd been thinking about it. I wanted to be on some boards, advisory boards, and maybe teach. And so I'm on one advisory board now, the Caspian Policy Center in Washington.

• 2:24:32Speaker 06

  I've got my second book, In Train. It's about my, our five years in Turkmenistan.

• 2:24:37Jack Murphy?

  I can't wait to read that.

• 2:24:39Speaker 06

  And I've got a third book concept in taking notes for on leadership. But there'll all be leadership books. But I'm, you know, I am trying sincerely and not in jest, realizing

• 2:24:57Speaker 06

  I don't need to do all this stuff. And so, yeah, I purposely want to cut back. And we built a retirement home in Tennessee on a high ridge line overlooking the Cumberland Mountains. It's a spectacular view. And I sit in the deck, watch the wildlife.

• 2:25:17Jack Murphy?

  Drink some coffee.

• 2:25:18Speaker 06

  Yeah. It's just incredible.

• 2:25:22Jack Murphy?

  In the book, As the Pentagon Burned: Leadership and Human Excellence in the Face of the 9/11 Attack, where can people go to find this?

• 2:25:29Speaker 06

  Thanks for reading the full title. The subtitle, Leadership and Human Excellence in the Face of the 9/11 Attack, because I wanted to emphasize human excellence in the face of crisis. It's on amazon.com, Barnes & Noble's online, you could order it. Some local bookshops in the Washington area, Politics at Pro's in the Washington area carries it. But I think mostly through amazon.com is where I'm getting big sales. And it did hit top three, amazon.com.

• 2:26:00Jack Murphy?

  That's great. I'm excited to actually read your book about Turkmenistan, because that's, it's just a country that it's hard to parse information out of.

• 2:26:10Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 2:26:11Jack Murphy?

  Do we have any alibis from your wife?

• 2:26:14Speaker 06

  Tell me what I got wrong, Edie.

• 2:26:16Jack Murphy?

  Any embarrassing stories you want to tell? No.

• 2:26:26Speaker 06

  Oh, my gosh. Edie was so beloved. We were walking in a bazaar once in one of the provincial capital cities, and there was some, there were a few young girls there, and I could see them looking at us and whispering, and I thought, oh, they want to come say hello. They walked right past me and went right up to Edie, because they knew she created the Women's Economics Society.

• 2:26:48Jack Murphy?

  Oh.

• 2:26:49Speaker 06

  And the girls just looked up to her. I mean, and in a familial society like that, they...

• 2:26:59Jack Murphy?

  Everything's about relationships.

• 2:27:00Speaker 06

  They honor their parents and grandparents. And so we were grandparent figures for them, I guess you could say.

• 2:27:15Speaker 06

  The Women's Economic Society has continued, now that Edie's gone, we're worried it might fizzle out, but yeah, it's still there.

• 2:27:21Jack Murphy?

  That's amazing.

• 2:27:22Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 2:27:23Jack Murphy?

  Wow.

• 2:27:30Jack Murphy?

  That's great. And, any final thoughts?

• 2:27:34Speaker 06

  No, I want to thank you for bringing me in, but, but thank you for the work you do.

• 2:27:40Jack Murphy?

  Yeah, thank you.

• 2:27:41Speaker 06

  I think it's really given people a voice and, and a place to turn to. I know a lot of people are out there with similar approaches, but I think here's a special, Jack, and really appreciate, appreciate Don behind the scenes and it's great to be in New York City on the eve of the 25th anniversary of 9/11 to, to really take that in.

• 2:28:05Jack Murphy?

  Yeah, absolutely. And, you know, I'm really glad you reached out and I'm really glad that we'll be able to, this will essentially be the podcast's 9/11 anniversary show. I think it's a good time to take a pause and just remember that.

• 2:28:21Jack Murphy?

  So, folks, you can go and find As the Pentagon Burned by Ambassador Retired Matthew Klimow.

• 2:28:28Speaker 06

  Klimow.

• 2:28:29Jack Murphy?

  It is out now. And thank you for joining us. We'll see all you guys, actually, later this week.

• 2:28:39Speaker 06

  I just noticed the claymore.

• 2:28:41Jack Murphy?

  Yeah, you like that?

• 2:28:42Speaker 06

  Who made that? Jeez. Who would have thought of this?

• 2:28:51Speaker 07

  Hello, everyone. If you're hearing this, you are not a member of the Patreon. You can get your hands on ad-free episodes that come out early and you can ask us questions, maybe we'll answer them. You can also watch the Team House podcast completely ad-free and early, and you can also watch it live as we interview our guests.

• 2:29:12Speaker 07

  And it's the best way to support the channel. So, if you can, if you're open to it, you can go to patreon.com/the team house. That link is in the description. We appreciate the supporters and we hope you would consider being one. So, it's patreon.com/the team house. Thanks, guys.

• 2:29:29Jack Murphy?

  Hey, guys, Lady Luck here. I just love the fall season. Chris Mornings Pumpkin Spice Latte, and it's the best time to cozy up and play Spin Quest. They have over a thousand different slots in all my favorite casino-style games, and they're running a deal for all new players, a $30 coin package for just $10. So, this fall, grab your favorite blanket, visit spinquest.com and download the app today.

• 2:29:52Speaker 01

  Spin Quest is a free-to-play social casino. Void where prohibited. Visit spinquest.com for more details.

• 2:29:58Speaker 03

  OnDeck is built to back small businesses like yours. Whether you're buying equipment, expanding your team, or bridging cash flow gaps, OnDeck's loans up to $400,000 make it happen fast. Rated A+ by the Better Business Bureau and earning thousands of five-star TrustPilot reviews, OnDeck delivers funding you can count on. Apply in minutes at ondeck.com. Depending on certain loan attributes, your business loan may be issued by OnDeck or Celtic Bank. OnDeck does not lend in North Dakota. All loans and amounts subject to lender approval.

• 2:30:27Speaker 02

  911, what's your emergency?

• 2:30:30Speaker 03

  Please help us, they're everywhere. We think they're murder warnings. 911 Nashville returns.

• 2:30:37Speaker 04

  There's a homicide detective down here. Three bodies on the ground.

• 2:30:40Speaker 03

  With emergencies of biblical proportions.

• 2:30:43Speaker 04

  All since swarms upon you and upon your people. That's one of the plagues for Bible. And somebody's unleashing them on Nashville.

• 2:30:50Speaker 03

  Brian Philippi joins 911 Nashville. All new Thursdays on ABC, next day on Hulu.

• 2:31:02Speaker 00

  What's up, everybody? It's Fredsky. I just got done stealing candy from all of the kids in my entire neighborhood, and my stomach just hurts so bad I can barely get off my couch. But don't worry, I can still spin a thousand of my favorite slots and play all of the live table games I love on spinquest.com. New users get a $30 coin package for just $10. Go to spinquest.com or download the app today.

• 2:31:26Speaker 01

  Spin Quest is a free-to-play social casino. Void where prohibited. Visit spinquest.com for more details.

• 2:31:32Speaker 03

  Cash Flow Crunch? OnDeck's small business line of credit gives your business immediate access to funds, up to $200,000, right when you need it. Cover seasonal dips, manage payroll, restock inventory, or tackle unexpected expenses without missing a beat. With flexible draws, transparent pricing, and control over repayment, get funded quickly and confidently. Apply today at ondeck.com. Funds could be available as soon as tomorrow. Depending on certain loan attributes, your business loan may be issued by OnDeck or Celtic Bank. OnDeck does not lend in North Dakota. All loans and amounts subject to lender approval.

• 2:32:03Speaker 02

  911, what's your emergency?

• 2:32:06Speaker 03

  Please help us, they're everywhere. We think they're murder warnings. 911 Nashville returns.

• 2:32:13Speaker 04

  There's a homicide detective down here. Three bodies on the ground.

• 2:32:16Speaker 03

  With emergencies of biblical proportions.

• 2:32:19Speaker 04

  All since swarms upon you and upon your people. That's one of the plagues for Bible. And somebody's unleashing them on Nashville.

• 2:32:26Speaker 03

  Brian Philippi joins 911 Nashville. All new Thursdays on ABC, next day on Hulu.

• 2:32:38Jack Murphy?

  Hey, guys, Lady Luck here. I just love the fall season. Chris Mornings Pumpkin Spice Latte, and it's the best time to cozy up and play Spin Quest. They have over a thousand different slots in all my favorite casino-style games, and they're running a deal for all new players, a $30 coin package for just $10. So, this fall, grab your favorite blanket, visit spinquest.com and download the app today.

• 2:33:03Speaker 01

  Spin Quest is a free-to-play social casino. Void where prohibited. Visit spinquest.com for more details.

• 2:33:08Speaker 03

  Cash Flow Crunch? OnDeck's small business line of credit gives your business immediate access to funds, up to $200,000, right when you need it. Cover seasonal dips, manage payroll, restock inventory, or tackle unexpected expenses without missing a beat. With flexible draws, transparent pricing, and control over repayment, get funded quickly and confidently. Apply today at ondeck.com. Funds could be available as soon as tomorrow. Depending on certain loan attributes, your business loan may be issued by OnDeck or Celtic Bank. OnDeck does not lend in North Dakota. All loans and amounts subject to lender approval.

• 2:33:40Speaker 02

  911, what's your emergency?

• 2:33:43Speaker 03

  Please help us, they're everywhere. We think they're murder warnings. 911 Nashville returns.

• 2:33:50Speaker 04

  There's a homicide detective down here. Three bodies on the ground.

• 2:33:53Speaker 03

  With emergencies of biblical proportions.

• 2:33:56Speaker 04

  All since swarms upon you and upon your people. That's one of the plagues for Bible. And somebody's unleashing them on Nashville.

• 2:34:03Speaker 03

  Brian Philippi joins 911 Nashville. All new Thursdays on ABC, next day on Hulu.

• 2:34:15Speaker 00

  Happy birthday, America. It's time to celebrate and play your favorite Las Vegas casino games by American-owned Spin Quest.com. What's better than fireworks and American pie? Hitting a blackjack in the palm of your hand, and you won't lose your fingers. Over a thousand games, including slots and live dealers, and $30 coin packs are on sale for $10. Spinquest.com. Buy American players for American players.

• 2:34:40Speaker 01

  Spin Quest is a free-to-play social casino. Void where prohibited. Visit spinquest.com for more details.

• 2:34:46Speaker 02

  OnDeck is built to back small businesses like yours. Whether you're buying equipment, expanding your team, or bridging cash flow gaps, OnDeck's loans up to $400,000 help make it happen fast. Rated A+ by the Better Business Bureau and earning thousands of five-star TrustPilot reviews, OnDeck delivers funding you can count on. Apply in minutes at ondeck.com. Depending on certain loan attributes, your business loan may be issued by OnDeck or Celtic Bank. OnDeck does not lend in North Dakota. All loans and amounts subject to lender approval. 911, what's your emergency?

• 2:35:19Speaker 03

  Please help us, they're everywhere. We think they're murder warnings. 911 Nashville returns.

• 2:35:26Speaker 04

  There's a homicide detective down here. Three bodies on the ground.

• 2:35:29Speaker 03

  With emergencies of biblical proportions.

• 2:35:32Speaker 04

  All since swarms upon you and upon your people. That's one of the plagues for Bible. And somebody's unleashing them on Nashville.

• 2:35:39Speaker 03

  Brian Philippi joins 911 Nashville. All new Thursdays on ABC, next day on Hulu.

• 2:35:53Speaker 00

  Forget whatever plans you have this weekend because you're staying at home and playing on Spin Quest. And there's never been a better time to sign up than right now. New users get $30 coin packs for just $10. All the table games you love, with hundreds of slot games and real cash prizes. That's at spinquest.com. S-P-I-N-Q-U-E-S-T.com.

• 2:36:14Speaker 01

  Spin Quest is a free-to-play social casino. Void where prohibited. Visit spinquest.com for more details.

• 2:36:22Speaker 02

  Cash Flow Crunch? OnDeck's small business line of credit gives your business immediate access to funds, up to $200,000, right when you need it. Cover seasonal dips, manage payroll, restock inventory, or tackle unexpected expenses without missing a beat. With flexible draws, transparent pricing, and control over repayment, get funded quickly and confidently. Apply today at ondeck.com. Funds could be available as soon as tomorrow. Depending on certain loan attributes, your business loan may be issued by OnDeck or Celtic Bank. OnDeck does not lend in North Dakota. All loans and amounts subject to lender approval. 911, what's your emergency? Please help us, they're everywhere.

• 2:36:59Speaker 03

  We think they're murder warnings. 911 Nashville returns.

• 2:37:03Speaker 04

  There's a homicide detective Three bodies on the ground.

• 2:37:07Speaker 03

  With emergencies of biblical proportions.

• 2:37:09Speaker 04

  I will send swarms upon you and upon your people. That's one of the plagues of the Bible. And somebody's unleashing them on Nashville.

• 2:37:16Speaker 03

  Brian Phillippe joins 911 Nashville. All new Thursdays on ABC, next day on Hulu.

• 2:37:29Speaker 00

  Oh, I have had no luck lately. Wait, lady luck?

• 2:37:34Speaker 03

  Bretsky, I got you. I've had so much luck on spinquest.com. They have all of my favorite games, slot games, live blackjack, craps, and bubble craps. You can even get a $30 coin pack for just $10.

• 2:37:47Speaker 00

  $10 for 30? I'm heading over to spinquest.com right now.

• 2:37:51Speaker 01

  Spinquest is a free-to-play social casino. Void where prohibited. Visit spinquest.com for more details.

• 2:37:59Speaker 03

  OnDeck is built to back small businesses like yours. Whether you're buying equipment, expanding your team, or bridging cash flow gaps, OnDeck's loans up to $400,000 make it happen fast. Rated A+ by the Better Business Bureau and earning thousands of five-star TrustPilot reviews, OnDeck delivers funding you can count on. Apply in minutes at ondeck.com. Depending on certain loan attributes, your business loan may be issued by OnDeck or Celtic Bank. OnDeck does not lend in North Dakota. All loans and amounts subject to lender approval.

• 2:38:27Speaker 02

  911, what's your emergency?

• 2:38:31Speaker 02

  Please help us, they're everywhere. We think they're murder hornets.

• 2:38:35Speaker 03

  911 Nashville returns.

• 2:38:38Speaker 04

  What's a homicide detective doing here? Three bodies on the ground.

• 2:38:41Speaker 03

  With emergencies of biblical proportions.

• 2:38:43Speaker 04

  I will send swarms upon you and upon your people. That's one of the plagues of the Bible. And somebody's unleashing them on Nashville.

• 2:38:50Speaker 03

  Brian Phillippe joins 911 Nashville. All new Thursdays on ABC, next day on Hulu.

• 2:39:04Speaker 00

  Hanging out at the pool is great. Relaxing and playing Vegas-style games on my phone at the same time. Drink in one hand and a blackjack in the other. It's all at Spinquest. Over 1,000 games, including your favorite slots and table games. Be cool with this summer special. New players get $30 coin packs for 10 at spinquest.com.

• 2:39:27Speaker 01

  Spinquest is a free-to-play social casino. Void where prohibited. Visit spinquest.com for more details.

• 2:39:34Speaker 02

  Cash flow crunch? OnDeck's small business line of credit gives your business immediate access to funds, up to $200,000, right when you need it. Cover seasonal dips, manage payroll, restock inventory, or tackle unexpected expenses without missing a beat. With flexible draws, transparent pricing, and control over repayment, get funded quickly and confidently. Apply today at ondeck.com. Funds could be available as soon as tomorrow. Depending on certain loan attributes, your business loan may be issued by OnDeck or Celtic Bank. OnDeck does not lend in North Dakota. All loans and amounts subject to lender approval. 911, what's your emergency? Please help us, they're everywhere. We think they're murder hornets.

• 2:40:13Speaker 03

  911 Nashville returns.

• 2:40:15Speaker 04

  What's a homicide detective doing here? Three bodies on the ground.

• 2:40:18Speaker 03

  With emergencies of biblical proportions.

• 2:40:21Speaker 04

  I will send swarms upon you and upon your people. That's one of the plagues of the Bible. And somebody's unleashing them on Nashville.

• 2:40:28Speaker 03

  Brian Phillippe joins 911 Nashville. All new Thursdays on ABC, next day on Hulu.

• 2:40:42Speaker 00

  Hanging out at the pool is great. Relaxing and playing Vegas-style games on my phone at the same time. Drink in one hand and a blackjack in the other. It's all at Spinquest. Over 1,000 games, including your favorite slots and table games. Be cool with this summer special. New players get $30 coin packs for 10 at spinquest.com.

• 2:41:05Speaker 01

  Spinquest is a free-to-play social casino. Void where prohibited. Visit spinquest.com for more details.

• 2:41:12Speaker 03

  OnDeck is built to back small businesses like yours. Whether you're buying equipment, expanding your team, or bridging cash flow gaps, OnDeck's loans up to $400,000 make it happen fast. Rated A+ by the Better Business Bureau and earning thousands of five-star TrustPilot reviews, OnDeck delivers funding you can count on. Apply in minutes at ondeck.com. Depending on certain loan attributes, your business loan may be issued by OnDeck or Celtic Bank. OnDeck does not lend in North Dakota. All loans and amounts subject to lender approval.

• 2:41:40Speaker 02

  911, what's your emergency?

• 2:41:44Speaker 02

  Please help us, they're everywhere. We think they're murder hornets.

• 2:41:48Speaker 03

  911 Nashville returns.

• 2:41:51Speaker 04

  What's a homicide detective doing here? Three bodies on the ground.

• 2:41:54Speaker 03

  With emergencies of biblical proportions.

• 2:41:56Speaker 04

  I will send swarms upon you and upon your people. That's one of the plagues of the Bible. And somebody's unleashing them on Nashville.

• 2:42:03Speaker 03

  Brian Phillippe joins 911 Nashville. All new Thursdays on ABC, next day on Hulu.

• 2:42:16Speaker 00

  Happy birthday, America. It's time to celebrate and play your favorite Las Vegas casino games by American-owned spinquest.com. What's better than fireworks and American pie? Hitting a blackjack in the palm of your hand, and you won't lose your fingers. Over 1,000 games, including slots and live dealers. And $30 coin packs are on sale for 10. Spinquest.com. Buy American players for American players.

• 2:42:40Speaker 01

  Spinquest is a free-to-play social casino. Void where prohibited. Visit spinquest.com for more details.

• 2:42:46Speaker 02

  Cash flow crunch? OnDeck's small business line of credit gives your business immediate access to funds, up to $200,000, right when you need it. Cover seasonal dips, manage payroll, restock inventory, or tackle unexpected expenses without missing a beat. With flexible draws, transparent pricing, and control over repayment, get funded quickly and confidently. Apply today at ondeck.com. Funds could be available as soon as tomorrow. Depending on certain loan attributes, your business loan may be issued by OnDeck or Celtic Bank. OnDeck does not lend in North Dakota. All loans and amounts subject to lender approval. 911, what's your emergency? Please help us, they're everywhere. We think they're murder hornets.

• 2:43:25Speaker 03

  911 Nashville returns.

• 2:43:28Speaker 04

  What's a homicide detective doing here? Three bodies on the ground.

• 2:43:31Speaker 03

  With emergencies of biblical proportions.

• 2:43:34Speaker 04

  I will send swarms upon you and upon your people. That's one of the plagues of the Bible. And somebody's unleashing them on Nashville.

• 2:43:41Speaker 03

  Brian Phillippe joins 911 Nashville. All new Thursdays on ABC, next day on Hulu.

• 2:43:52Speaker 00

  You know what? It sucks to be bored. But when I get on my phone and play real casino games on spinquest.com, the time flies by. That two-hour wait at the DMV seems like 10 minutes. Play your favorite slots, live blackjack, live craps with a live dealer. New players, $30 coin packs are on sale for $10. Play spinquest.com and you'll never be bored again.

• 2:44:16Speaker 01

  Spinquest is a free-to-play social casino. Void where prohibited. Visit spinquest.com for more details.

• 2:44:22Speaker 02

  OnDeck is built to back small businesses like yours. Whether you're buying equipment, expanding your team, or bridging cash flow gaps, OnDeck's loans up to $400,000 help make it happen fast. Rated A+ by the Better Business Bureau and earning thousands of five-star TrustPilot reviews, OnDeck delivers funding you can count on. Apply in minutes at ondeck.com. Depending on certain loan attributes, your business loan may be issued by OnDeck or Celtic Bank. OnDeck does not lend in North Dakota. All loans and amounts subject to lender approval.

• 2:44:53Speaker 02

  911, what's your emergency?

• 2:44:56Speaker 02

  Please help us, they're everywhere. We think they're murder hornets.

• 2:45:00Speaker 03

  911 Nashville returns.

• 2:45:03Speaker 04

  What's a homicide detective doing here? Three bodies on the ground.

• 2:45:06Speaker 03

  With emergencies of biblical proportions.

• 2:45:08Speaker 04

  I will send swarms upon you and upon your people. That's one of the plagues of the Bible. And somebody's unleashing them on Nashville.

• 2:45:16Speaker 03

  Brian Phillippe joins 911 Nashville. All new Thursdays on ABC, next day on Hulu.

• 2:45:31Speaker 00

  Forget whatever plans you have this weekend because you're staying at home and playing on Spinquest. And there's never been a better time to sign up than right now. New users get $30 coin packs for just $10. All the table games you love with hundreds of slot games and real cash prizes. That's at spinquest.com. S-P-I-N-Q-U-E-S-T.com.

• 2:45:52Speaker 01

  Spinquest is a free-to-play social casino. Void where prohibited. Visit spinquest.com for more details.

• 2:46:00Speaker 03

  Cash flow crunch? OnDeck's small business line of credit gives your business immediate access to funds, up to $200,000, right when you need it. Cover seasonal dips, manage payroll, restock inventory, or tackle unexpected expenses without missing a beat. With flexible draws, transparent pricing, and control over repayment, get funded quickly and confidently. Apply today at ondeck.com. Funds could be available as soon as tomorrow. Depending on certain loan attributes, your business loan may be issued by OnDeck or Celtic Bank. OnDeck does not lend in North Dakota. All loans and amounts subject to lender approval.

• 2:46:31Speaker 02

  911, what's your emergency? Please help us, they're everywhere. We think they're murder hornets.

• 2:46:39Speaker 03

  911 Nashville returns.

• 2:46:41Speaker 04

  What's a homicide detective doing here? Three bodies on the ground.

• 2:46:45Speaker 03

  With emergencies of biblical proportions.

• 2:46:47Speaker 04

  I will send swarms upon you and upon your people. That's one of the plagues of the Bible. And somebody's unleashing them on Nashville.

• 2:46:54Speaker 03

  Brian Phillippe joins 911 Nashville. All new Thursdays on ABC, next day on Hulu.

• 2:47:03Speaker 00

  Oh, I have had no luck lately. Wait, lady luck?

• 2:47:08Speaker 03

  Bretsky, I got you. I've had so much luck on spinquest.com. They have all of my favorite games, slot games, live blackjack, craps, and bubble craps. You can even get a $30 coin pack for just $10.

• 2:47:21Speaker 00

  $10 for 30? I'm heading over to spinquest.com right now.

• 2:47:25Speaker 01

  Spinquest is a free-to-play social casino. Void where prohibited. Visit spinquest.com for more details.

• 2:47:33Speaker 02

  Cash flow crunch? OnDeck's small business line of credit gives your business immediate access to funds, up to $200,000, right when you need it. Cover seasonal dips, manage payroll, restock inventory, or tackle unexpected expenses without missing a beat. With flexible draws, transparent pricing, and control over repayment, get funded quickly and confidently. Apply today at ondeck.com. Funds could be available as soon as tomorrow. Depending on certain loan attributes, your business loan may be issued by OnDeck or Celtic Bank. OnDeck does not lend in North Dakota. All loans and amounts subject to lender approval. You're halfway through your to-do list. Iced matcha in hand, and the day's still not slowing down. Good skincare should keep up without overcomplicating things. Overuse of active ingredients can damage your skin's moisture barrier. New Aquaphor Hydrating Daily Lotion is gentle enough for all skin types, including sensitive skin.

• 2:48:19Speaker 02

  It's lightweight and fast-absorbing on skin. Even though your afternoon's packed, your skin's moisture barrier is unbothered. Grab Aquaphor Hydrating Daily Lotion at your nearest retailer. There's Before, and then there's Aquaphor.