From the Archives: Jon Robin Baitz

Jon Robin Baitz is a playwright who admits that writing plays is tricky. He’s a snob for Broadway, where the cachet and laughs are bigger. But deep down, this award-winning playwright considers it a privilege to be working in American theater at all. Alec speaks to Baitz about his Broadway debut play, Other Desert Cities, that came from a place of despair and loss—and his own personal experience writing for television in Hollywood. Originally aired June 4th, 2012. See omnystudio.com/listener https://omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Speaker 00

  This is an iHeart Podcast. Guaranteed Human.

• 0:04Speaker 01

  We all have routines. I'm Gibran, and with diabetes, mine was finger sticks. Sometimes, I skip them because they hurt. The Freestyle Libre 3CGM changed that. It gives me glucose insights without finger sticks. Learn more at freestylelibre.us.

• 0:20Speaker 02

  Finger sticks are required if your glucose alarms or readings do not match symptoms, or when you see check blood glucose symbol for the first 12 hours. The views expressed should not be used for medical diagnosis or treatment as a substitute for professional medical advice. Individual circumstances may vary. For prescription only. Safety info found at freestylelibre.us.

• 0:34Speaker 03

  If you're a custodial supervisor at a local high school, you know that cleanliness is key, and that the best place to get cleaning supplies is from Grainger. Grainger helps you stay fully stocked on the products you trust, from paper towels and disinfectants to floor scrubbers. Plus, you can rely on Grainger for easy reordering, so you never run out of what you need. Call 1-800-GRAINGER, click Grainger.com, or just stop by. Grainger, for the ones who get it done.

• 1:04Speaker 04

  Thinking about selling your car? Get a real offer worth real money from CarMax. Then take seven days to think it over. That's it. No haggling, no hassles, no pressure. Get all the details and a real offer today at carmax.com. Want to drive? CarMax.

• 1:19Speaker 05

  Cash flow crunch? OnDeck's small business line of credit gives your business immediate access to funds, up to $200,000, right when you need it. Cover, seasonal dips, manage payroll, restock inventory, or tackle unexpected expenses without missing a beat. With flexible draws, transparent pricing, and control over repayment, get funded quickly and confidently. Apply today at ondeck.com. Funds could be available as soon as tomorrow. Depending on certain loan attributes, your business loan may be issued by OnDeck or Celtic Bank. OnDeck does not lend in North Dakota. All loans and amounts subject to lender approval.

• 1:50Alec Baldwin?

  This is Alec Baldwin, and you're listening to Here's the Thing from iHeart Radio.

• 1:55Speaker 07

  Whatever it is, whatever you do, you're our daughter, and I will love you.

• 2:02Alec Baldwin?

  John Robin Bates has a new play on Broadway. Recently nominated for a Tony, Other Desert Cities is about family dysfunction and the choices we make.

• 2:13Speaker 07

  There are consequences to our actions. What does that mean? How could I trust you?

• 2:23Speaker 07

  How could I ever be in your presence, my dear?

• 2:26Alec Baldwin?

  Robbie, as he's known to many, pursued similar themes in the drama he created and executive-produced for ABC, Brothers and Sisters. Robbie's strengths as a playwright are magnified by the talent he surrounds himself with. Dan Sullivan directed Substance of Fire in 1992. Joe Mantello directed Other Desert Cities. Robbie Bates often writes for specific actors he admires, like Stacy Keach and Ron Rifkin, who have worked on several of Robbie's stage and screen projects. In the theater world, you'd be hard-pressed to find someone who wouldn't want to work with Robbie. He comes across as kind, human, and humble.

• 3:10Alec Baldwin?

  During our conversation, he confessed there's been a dark side to his success on Broadway. He's been spoiled. John Robin Bates can barely think about going back to the smaller theaters.

• 3:20Speaker 07

  I'm ruined. I'm ruined from Off-Broadway. Now, I sort of say things like, "Well, that play's an Off-Broadway play. It's not a Broadway play." Making fun of myself. The difference is, you're in this great, great, grand old house that's built for a kind of big experience, and the drama is somehow expanded. I mean, I've listened. I never knew the difference. So I was always...

• 3:46Alec Baldwin?

  And when you're there, you feel there's just a different tapestry there when you're in a Broadway house? That lends itself to the kind of the import of the project?

• 3:53Speaker 07

  There's a lot of different things going on. The audience has bought into an experience for which they've usually sadly paid more money. And so it changes the dynamic. It changes... There's more ornamentation around it in some way. The laughs change, which is odd. The laughs are sort of bigger and more expensive in some way.

• 4:18Alec Baldwin?

  So what was the arc of Other Desert Cities before you went to Broadway? It began where?

• 4:22Speaker 07

  In the Mitzi New House, which is the beautiful jewel theater in the basement of Lincoln Center.

• 4:28Alec Baldwin?

  How many seats?

• 4:29Speaker 07

  $299, I think.

• 4:30Alec Baldwin?

  Small.

• 4:31Speaker 07

  Small, intimate, and in fact, even claustrophobic. What happened was Joe Mantello, who directed it, immediately had a sense of having to build space around things and that, once it moved in the transfer. I actually believe the play got better in its move. It just all came together in some way. I did a little work on the play and...

• 4:56Alec Baldwin?

  For example, what work did you do?

• 4:58Speaker 07

  I worked a little bit on the ending of the play, the last few minutes of the play.

• 5:03Alec Baldwin?

  But it went so well off-Broadway and Lincoln Center. When you do that kind of thing, what is it that propels you to do that?

• 5:10Speaker 07

  It's just the knowledge that there's more to mine from it. And mostly it was, you know, Joe's great sort of probing sense of, I think there's a deeper truth there, I think we've glossed over something or skipped over something.

• 5:25Alec Baldwin?

  You have a success now on Broadway that if I'm, I could be mistaken, but it's been a while since you had it to this level. This is like Substance of Fire again, you know, where you had great, great notices and people who said wonderful things about your career and your future. That was 20 years ago.

• 5:41Speaker 07

  I know.

• 5:42Alec Baldwin?

  When you look back on some of your plays, would you change them?

• 5:44Speaker 07

  I can't. I just have to keep moving forward. I can't do it. I know that people do, but, you know, I can't fight old wars. I would find it disablingly backwards-looking for myself to go back. I think some of my plays have been less successful to me than others. And to me, it's all been about the process of getting to the next play or getting to the next day. This play, though, at the core of it, it comes out of trying to understand the ways

• 6:26Speaker 07

  in which people collapse, even though the subject is not necessarily depression.

• 6:32Alec Baldwin?

  I want to take two plays, Substance of Fire, Sullivan directed, and now you're on Broadway and had been at the Mid Sea with Other Desert Cities, and Joe directed. Compare and contrast Sullivan with Joe, in terms of their directing techniques.

• 6:48Speaker 07

  They're very similar. They are meticulous, meticulous miniaturists with big expansive visions of what logic and a world are comprised of. They're both indefatigable. They never give up. They live and breathe it. Their approaches are very different. Dan has a kind of, almost holistic, view of the logic of a play. And Joe, because, I don't know, maybe because he was an actor for a long time, even though

• 7:29Speaker 07

  Dan had been an actor, Joe looks for a different kind of character logic. He's always asking, and what happens next, dramaturgically? He's very much about the engine and the motor. And Dan is, well, he's also, actually, he's actually all, they're so similar that it's only a matter of their temperaments that are different.

• 7:54Alec Baldwin?

  How are they different?

• 7:55Speaker 07

  Dan is...

• 7:57Alec Baldwin?

  Like a priest.

• 7:58Speaker 07

  Yeah, he's more Jesuitical.

• 8:01Alec Baldwin?

  And Mantello was what? To the extent that you want to say.

• 8:06Speaker 07

  He's passionately, passionately dedicated to leaving no stone unturned. And I think one of the reasons he went back to acting this last year, did The Normal Heart on Broadway, and I think it's because he had to re-experience the sort of dynamic of what it means to be an actor, to get under the skin of the experience and find out what kind of communicator he is with actors by acting again. Dan has a kind of remove about him, and Joe tends to delve...

• 8:47Speaker 07

  Sort of with sword kind of play.

• 8:52Alec Baldwin?

  More visceral.

• 8:53Speaker 07

  Play, yeah. What they both have in common is real rigor about their work ethic and their intellectual understanding of a subject, of a world.

• 9:09Alec Baldwin?

  Sometimes, although it's not always useful, I divide directors between directors that you want to please because you want them to like you and directors that you want to please because you don't want them to hate you. And I don't think I need to tell you which one would be which in this case, you know, because Joe seems so intense, just seems so smoldering all the time.

• 9:31Speaker 07

  Well, he.

• 9:31Alec Baldwin?

  Is he?

• 9:32Speaker 07

  No, he wants you to show him. He doesn't want to have to tell you what to do. He wants you to bring something amazing to the table every day. It's why one loves, for instance, our mutual friend Nathan.

• 9:47Alec Baldwin?

  Right.

• 9:48Speaker 07

  Nathan Lane, because every day he brings something new, what they call a money player.

• 9:55Alec Baldwin?

  Many people, I think, don't understand, and this is not always the case, that the theatrical experience, movies are very, very different. When you work with a director in the theater, a lot of them don't tell you this or that, they edit.

• 10:10Alec Baldwin?

  You know, the most famous example, who I love, is Joey Tillinger, who Tillinger basically says nothing for the three weeks, and then in the last week, he selects.

• 10:20Speaker 07

  Mm-hmm.

• 10:21Alec Baldwin?

  My recollection of Joey was, it was three weeks of me doing something, and I'd say, what do you think? And he'd say, what do you think, baby? Do you think it works?

• 10:28Speaker 07

  I just, I can't do it that way. I see it as all about stripping away and finding the kind of improvisatory freedom that's locked in the text. And that involves a combination of savviness and analysis and getting off book really fast and being able to move around really fast. And then. Setting up.

• 10:58Alec Baldwin?

  Joe, I'm told is a stickler for that. Get off book.

• 11:00Speaker 07

  Well, you can't.

• 11:02Alec Baldwin?

  Because nothing really happens until you do.

• 11:03Speaker 07

  Yeah, it's difficult.

• 11:06Alec Baldwin?

  Well, especially in a world now where, as I recall, you used to have five weeks of rehearsal for a straight play. We've gone to a four-week rehearsal. Four weeks. That goes by like you sneeze.

• 11:18Speaker 07

  I like shorter rehearsals. With Bob Falls, another great director, I did Three Hotels this last summer at Williamstown with Maureen Tierney and Stephen Weber, and they had two and a half weeks. Everything is dangerous, two and a half weeks.

• 11:35Alec Baldwin?

  Tell me about when a play like Substance of Fire, how did that come to you?

• 11:41Speaker 07

  You know, it's interesting. That play and this play share something in common. They came out of despair. They both came out of trying to write myself out of a kind of real sense of despondency and loss.

• 11:58Alec Baldwin?

  And to the extent you want to talk about it, what was the despondency back in 91?

• 12:02Speaker 07

  I had been working on a play for a long time that was, eventually became a play called A Fair Country, but at the time it was called Dutch Landscape. And I worked on it, impossible play to do when you're young about growing up. Did it at the Taper in Los Angeles. And I lost the play. I actually lost it, you know, in rehearsal and development through nobody's fault, you know, certainly not Gordon Davidson's who directed it. If anybody was at fault, if you can even use that word, because it's theater, it was me. I was just in despair over, how did I let this happen to me? I used to work at Book Soup in Hollywood.

• 12:49Speaker 07

  And I borrowed the office above Book Soup to try and figure out, you know, I was no longer working there. So I was sitting up in this office above the store and I was surrounded by books and I thought, oh yeah, I've read all of you. I've read you, you, you, you, you, you, you. And none of you did me any good whatsoever. I don't know how to fight. First line of substantive fire is, look at all these books. The play is about learning how to fight and articulating the things you need, articulating the ways in which you have to express yourself in order to somehow achieve a kind of victory that goes beyond words.

• 13:31Alec Baldwin?

  What's Isaac's victory?

• 13:33Speaker 07

  Isaac doesn't really have a victory in an odd kind of way. He goes down with his own ship, but he's unyielding. And I think I tried to learn how to be unyielding in writing that play. It didn't do me much good.

• 13:48Alec Baldwin?

  Why?

• 13:49Speaker 07

  Well, because life is life and plays are plays and you can't actually learn that much by writing them. You have to live.

• 13:58Alec Baldwin?

  Do you find that in the ensuing years, you wind up going up against things that just crush you?

• 14:04Speaker 07

  Totally.

• 14:05Alec Baldwin?

  So, right, they crush you. And you realize that, I'm not going to compare battles with television networks with going through the Holocaust, but on the other hand, the Isaac character, there are some people who, they are just incapable of the happiness that leads to real intimacy because there's something that they just cannot get over.

• 14:23Speaker 07

  I think it's very true. Totally true, that character. And in his case, he has very little choice. He's locked in battle with this melancholia that won't lift.

• 14:36Alec Baldwin?

  Right. Which I think people don't have a real, honest understanding about. They don't know what it's like to be betrayed on like the ninth level, you know, something really hideous.

• 14:46Speaker 07

  I think despair is, the dimensions of one's despair are so difficult to quantify, so difficult to paint, so difficult to expose. And it's such a huge subject. Certainly, Other Desert Cities is steeped in despair. You know, you say, talk about network battles, but...

• 15:11Speaker 07

  I had, I sort of, you know, was ejected from my one adventure in television up to that point. I was creating Brothers and Sisters and it was a very unhappy, very difficult experience for me. And again, at the end of that thing, I sort of, I came back east, you know, after having been west for a little bit.

• 15:32Alec Baldwin?

  And what was the first thing you wrote after that?

• 15:34Speaker 07

  Well, there are three plays in my drawer because I, I had forgotten how to write. This is the thing I think about with other desert cities is it's the play where I learned, I taught myself how to write again because I was so used to writing to please people.

• 15:52Alec Baldwin?

  What happened with ABC?

• 15:55Speaker 07

  Well, first of all, networks being what they are, the people who commissioned the piece and who are invested in putting it on the air, end up leaving.

• 16:05Alec Baldwin?

  Sure.

• 16:06Speaker 07

  And so you're left with a kind of, in a kind of-

• 16:09Alec Baldwin?

  Stepparents.

• 16:10Speaker 07

  And not necessarily particularly-

• 16:14Alec Baldwin?

  Caring, supportive stepparents.

• 16:17Speaker 07

  Slightly bewildered. I mean, the guy who really ran the entertainment division kept saying, "I don't understand why anybody watches this show."

• 16:27Alec Baldwin?

  It's painful.

• 16:28Speaker 07

  And I would say the same thing, except for different reasons. I mean, it was really, it was bizarre.

• 16:33Alec Baldwin?

  But how soon did you-

• 16:35Speaker 07

  He would call me and scream at me. I actually said to him, "I don't know who you think you're talking to."

• 16:40Alec Baldwin?

  Yeah.

• 16:41Speaker 07

  And I would, you know, politely hang up and say, "I'm, I'm leaving the conversation now." At one point, I said to them, "Don't you feel like there's something wrong? I mean, look at this amazing cast. Sally Field, Calista Flockhart, Rachel Griffith, Ron Rifkin, Patty Weddick, on and on and on."

• 17:02Speaker 07

  Don't you think there should be some higher intention, some integrity, maybe some, I don't know, do you want, do you want to try and get an Emmy or something? I didn't even know how to speak their language, but I thought Emmy would be something that they would recognize. And a literal quote from the head of the studio was, "No, I don't need awards. The ratings are good enough for me."

• 17:24Alec Baldwin?

  This happens in the first season?

• 17:27Speaker 07

  Yeah.

• 17:28Alec Baldwin?

  The first season?

• 17:29Speaker 07

  Yeah.

• 17:30Alec Baldwin?

  And you are gone after how many seasons? After the first season?

• 17:32Speaker 07

  Oh, yeah.

• 17:33Alec Baldwin?

  So was, so all this takes place in one television season?

• 17:36Speaker 07

  Yes.

• 17:37Alec Baldwin?

  One nine-month period?

• 17:38Speaker 07

  Yes. You know, someone comes in to sort of manage the show, and they're beholden to the network and the studio, as they should be, and I'm beholden to an aesthetic. And I'm an idiot for being beholden to an aesthetic. But, you know, people love the show. It went on for another four seasons after that.

• 17:59Alec Baldwin?

  And you maintained some participation in the show, yes?

• 18:01Speaker 07

  No, no, no.

• 18:02Alec Baldwin?

  How was that possible? You created the show. You were the creator of the show, correct?

• 18:06Speaker 07

  There was a writer's strike, and there was a force majeure clause. Force majeure being act of God. The studio network could use that clause to nullify any contract they had with anybody they liked. I had been very vocal during that strike about what I considered at the time the very unhealthy dynamic between the producers and the Writers Guild. And I wrote about this way too much.

• 18:37Alec Baldwin?

  What was, what was the name of those blogs you wrote on Huffington Post?

• 18:41Speaker 07

  Leaving L.A.

• 18:42Alec Baldwin?

  Leaving, yeah.

• 18:43Speaker 07

  A lot of them were very insanely painful and actually lead to, again, other desert cities. The girl in the play can't stop writing about things that affected other people.

• 18:54Alec Baldwin?

  Right.

• 18:55Speaker 07

  And...

• 18:56Alec Baldwin?

  She wants some truth.

• 18:57Speaker 07

  Yeah, and then she's left with the debris. So it all came out of, you know, I pick up the phone one day, and I see that, you know, people's deals are being canceled. But there are people who haven't made anything. And I, suddenly, I'm, I was gone. And I, even before that, wasn't sure to what extent I was ever going to go back. I knew I would have some involvement, but then I had none whatsoever.

• 19:24Alec Baldwin?

  But for me, what's curious, and again, you don't have to answer this question. I'm just curious, which is, as the creator of a television show, there is typically a windfall for that person as the creator of that show. If that was taken away from you through some contractual sleight of hand, where did all that go? All went to the network? They took it all for themselves?

• 19:42Speaker 07

  I can't speak to that. I'm just not going to talk about that.

• 19:45Alec Baldwin?

  Okay, okay. I don't.

• 19:47Speaker 07

  But I am going to say that I think it was the best thing that ever happened to me because it would have been dirty money.

• 19:54Alec Baldwin?

  Right.

• 19:55Speaker 07

  I think it would have destroyed me in some way to have no pride in the thing that made me wealthy would have made me terribly uncomfortable. And I would have felt that I'd betrayed whatever promise or potential I'd set up for myself as a writer, that if I was going to survive at it, it couldn't be compromised.

• 20:22Alec Baldwin?

  This is Alec Baldwin, and I'm talking with playwright John Robin Bates. More in a minute. We're taking a break. Stay with us.

• 21:19Speaker 05

  Back small businesses like yours. Whether you're buying equipment, expanding your team, or bridging cash flow gaps, OnDeck's loans up to $400,000 make it happen fast. Rated A plus by the Better Business Bureau and earning thousands of five-star Trust Pilot reviews, OnDeck delivers funding you can count on. Apply in minutes at ondeck.com. Depending on certain loan attributes, your business loan may be issued by OnDeck or Celtic Bank. OnDeck does not lend in North Dakota. All loans and amounts subject to lender approval.

• 21:47Speaker 01

  Hey, it's Nile Rodgers, host of Before the Moment, a Lincoln original series. I'm driving across the country, meeting some of today's most fascinating artists. We're exploring the stories before the moment that changed everything. This week, I'm joined by Miguel. That last year, finishing that record was the hardest experience of my life. To find your creativity and to believe in yourself, because somewhere in the midst of it, I stopped believing that my voice mattered and that I could find it again. That's a challenge.

• 22:23Alec Baldwin?

  I was not feeling very confident creatively, only, again, defiant in my belief that what this is about is express something honest, say something honest.

• 22:41Speaker 01

  Experience Before the Moment, a Lincoln original series on the iHeartRadio app, YouTube, or wherever you get your podcasts.

• 22:51Alec Baldwin?

  This is Alec Baldwin, and you're listening to Here's the Thing. The idea for John Robin Bates's new play, Other Desert Cities, came to him when he was back on the East Coast.

• 23:02Speaker 07

  I was sitting at a beach with my notebook, and I'm thinking about how to get back into it and what matters to me. And I just sort of self-destructed at Brothers and Sisters. I had written about personal events that implicated other people in some way that I hadn't taken into account the consequences. And I found myself very much like the character in my play, played by Beth Marvel and Rachel Griffith at various points, a writer who is a dangerous creature. And I had a note to myself.

• 23:46Speaker 07

  Play about daughter of a famous family who writes a book about her growing up in this family, something like that, the danger of telling the truth that turns out to be a lie. And at that moment, this lady of a certain age walked by me and she looked to me like Pat Buckley, the old Doian of New York conservative politics, the wife of--

• 24:17Alec Baldwin?

  Bill Buckley.

• 24:18Speaker 07

  Bill Buckley. And I'd had lunch with her once and found her to be charming and engaged and this woman walked by me on this beach with her hat and in a one-piece bathing suit. I immediately felt the mother in that play and I suddenly remembered Old California, the way it was when I was a kid. And we were just in the throes of an election at the time, too, or about to be. And the Republicans of, certainly of that period, and even more so today, were very confusing to me because they didn't seem recognizable to me as having a coherent, cohesive,

• 24:58Speaker 07

  cogent argument for their principled positions, which had to be principled in some way. The play just came together in one fell swoop. Old California, conservatives--

• 25:10Alec Baldwin?

  Reaganites.

• 25:11Speaker 07

  The old Hollywood system, Reaganites. I even remembered I'd gone to high school with, I think, the daughter of John Gavin. And I thought, you know, and because I love Touch of Evil and I think, isn't John Gavin? No, he's not in Touch of Evil.

• 25:24Alec Baldwin?

  He's a psycho.

• 25:25Speaker 07

  He's in all these movies and I thought about--

• 25:27Alec Baldwin?

  He was the ambassador to Mexico.

• 25:29Speaker 07

  That's right, as is the Stacy Keach character in my play. And I thought about--

• 25:34Alec Baldwin?

  Your character's based on John Gavin.

• 25:39Speaker 07

  To some extent. There are all these archetypes in it.

• 25:41Alec Baldwin?

  I love it.

• 25:42Speaker 07

  At the back of all this, of course, there's also Joe Mantello, who, you know, we're no longer a couple, but he's my family, my best friend.

• 25:51Alec Baldwin?

  And you cease being a couple what year?

• 25:53Speaker 07

  Two thousand and two?

• 25:55Alec Baldwin?

  So it was a while.

• 25:56Speaker 07

  And he kept saying to me, with all possible respect, nobody's waiting for the next Robbie Bates play. And, you know, these are chilling words because I have so much to say and it's not coming out.

• 26:09Alec Baldwin?

  My equivalent of that is my agent said to me, he goes, it's not that these people don't want to hire you because they don't like you. He says, they don't want to hire you because they don't think of you at all.

• 26:20Speaker 07

  Jesus.

• 26:20Alec Baldwin?

  I thought, wow.

• 26:21Speaker 07

  Well, it's terrible because the worst thing that can happen to an artist, I'm invisible.

• 26:26Alec Baldwin?

  True.

• 26:26Speaker 07

  I no longer matter. For me, writing plays has always been very tricky. I don't know a lot. I don't have a lot to say. I reach things very slowly and I, I sometimes it seems facile and easy and to me, sometimes my thoughts and my sort of expressed opinions in plays seem hollow or naive even.

• 26:52Alec Baldwin?

  Why?

• 26:53Speaker 07

  Because I know there are deeper truths always to be found and that I'm...

• 26:58Alec Baldwin?

  But don't you think that seeking them and being aware of that makes you more likely to find it than anybody else? You didn't go to college, did you?

• 27:04Speaker 07

  No.

• 27:05Alec Baldwin?

  Why? You wound up educating yourself.

• 27:08Speaker 07

  I wish I'd gone to college.

• 27:09Alec Baldwin?

  Why didn't you?

• 27:11Speaker 07

  I was a depressed and unsettled kid and...

• 27:14Alec Baldwin?

  Why?

• 27:15Speaker 07

  I don't, I think I wasn't at peace with probably any element of who I was, whether it was a sort of nascent intellectual or sort of pre-expressive homosexual kid or...

• 27:32Alec Baldwin?

  You grew up where?

• 27:33Speaker 07

  Varyingly, LA.

• 27:36Alec Baldwin?

  You were born where?

• 27:37Speaker 07

  In LA.

• 27:38Alec Baldwin?

  And you lived there till you were how old?

• 27:39Speaker 07

  Seven, then Brazil for three years in Rio, and then South Africa for six and a half years till I was eighteen.

• 27:48Alec Baldwin?

  And your father was in the condensed milk business?

• 27:50Speaker 07

  My father worked for a giant multinational, Carnation Milk, yeah. It was a condensed milk business.

• 27:57Alec Baldwin?

  So LA, Brazil, South Africa?

• 28:00Speaker 07

  And then back to LA.

• 28:01Alec Baldwin?

  And when you finally get back to LA, how old are you?

• 28:03Speaker 07

  Eighteen.

• 28:04Alec Baldwin?

  So high school's over?

• 28:05Speaker 07

  I just finished high school. I'd sort of lost time through all the travel.

• 28:08Alec Baldwin?

  What was high school in South Africa like?

• 28:11Speaker 07

  I couldn't get used to things like cricket and corporal punishment. You know, you get caned for like not doing well on a spelling test. Literally caned. And I think I was so busy trying to be sly and charming that I forgot how to be me. That, I think, led me to rebel against learning itself. So I was sort of interested in the few things I was interested in. Literature, history. But I wouldn't apply myself to anything except escape. And part of escape meant not going to college. I was really lonely and I, I kind of became a depressed kid.

• 28:53Alec Baldwin?

  How did that manifest itself, if you can say?

• 28:58Speaker 07

  I, I think I-

• 28:59Alec Baldwin?

  Did you know you were gay then?

• 29:02Speaker 07

  Yes, I definitely knew that. I knew-

• 29:04Alec Baldwin?

  Did that add to your depression? Did it make you feel more isolated in that environment you live in? Because it wasn't proactive, the gay community there.

• 29:11Speaker 07

  In 1973?

• 29:15Alec Baldwin?

  Talk about getting caned.

• 29:16Speaker 07

  Yeah, well, um, I think my parents, who loved me very much, were distracted by their own terrors. There are certain families that are born in terror and live in terror.

• 29:34Alec Baldwin?

  Conceived in terror. I need you to write a play for me. I want it to be called "Conceived in Terror." There you go, ahead.

• 29:41Speaker 07

  Well, no, I mean, Death of a Salesman is, is a family that lives in terror.

• 29:46Alec Baldwin?

  You were how old when you arrived in Durban?

• 29:48Speaker 07

  Ten.

• 29:49Alec Baldwin?

  So you were there eight years.

• 29:51Speaker 07

  Yeah, I was there almost eight years.

• 29:53Alec Baldwin?

  Critical time, 10 years. So all of your real back half of your childhood, your teenage years especially, you are in Durban.

• 30:00Speaker 07

  Guess I was 17 or something when we left.

• 30:02Alec Baldwin?

  But you had finished the high school program?

• 30:04Speaker 07

  No, no, I finished it in L.A.

• 30:05Alec Baldwin?

  You did? Where?

• 30:06Speaker 07

  Beverly Hills High School. Yeah, what was that like? I, you know, was the only kid I knew who rode their bike to school because everybody else's parents had given them a Fiat.

• 30:16Alec Baldwin?

  Literally?

• 30:17Speaker 07

  Yeah, or something.

• 30:19Alec Baldwin?

  Who were your friends then? Who did you become friends with, anyone?

• 30:22Speaker 07

  Oh, yeah. In fact, Jenny Livingston went on to make Paris is Burning, great documentary. Tina Landau, a great theater director. Gina Gershon, my oldest friend from high school. We were in plays together in the drama department. So I became friends with, and I say this with real respect and love, with fellow freaks.

• 30:43Speaker 05

  We're taking a break, so stay with us.

• 30:46Speaker 01

  This live check-in is brought to you by State Farm. Porque el bienestar de tu familia también merece protección. Okay, real talk. I'm about to become a dad again. And wow, it hits different the second time. Hi, I'm Wilmer Valderrama, and I've done, you know, I've done the red carpets, The Long Days on Set and all that, but nothing prepares you for that moment when you're building a crib and you realize you're building a future. Familia is everything to me. The laughs, the chaos, the unconditional love, but also the pressure, la responsabilidad. If you're stepping into something big right now, starting a family, getting engaged, moving cities, you're not alone. Take one step at a time. Why breathe?

• 31:30Speaker 01

  Be present and lean into the people that got your back. Y disfruta. Like a good neighbor, State Farm is there.

• 31:37Speaker 05

  Cash Flow Crunch. OnDeck's small business line of credit gives your business immediate access to funds, up to $200,000, right when you need it. Cover seasonal dips, manage payroll, restock inventory, or tackle unexpected expenses without missing a beat. With flexible draws, transparent pricing, and control over repayment, get funded quickly and confidently. Apply today at ondeck.com. Funds could be available as soon as tomorrow. Depending on certain loan attributes, your business loan may be issued by OnDeck or Celtic Bank. OnDeck does not lend in North Dakota. All loans and amounts subject to lender approval.

• 32:07Speaker 01

  Hey, it's Niall Rogers, host of Before the Moment, a Lincoln original series. I'm driving across the country, meeting some of today's most fascinating artists. We're exploring the stories before the moment that changed everything. This week, I'm joined by my friend, John Ledge. What still makes you just sit down at the piano? If you sat down at 9 a.m. and then at noon, you had a full song that you recorded and put in your voice recorder or you recorded at your studio. You just created something brand new that didn't exist when you woke up. What a beautiful feeling it is. I'm always excited to write something new.

• 32:49Speaker 01

  I've been writing for Broadway, which has been a new challenge with new collaborators and these amazing performers who are triple threats, who can sing and dance and act and do all these amazing things. And I want to keep feeling that. And so that means not resting on my laurels, going out there and continuing to create something new.

• 33:07Speaker 02

  Experience Before the Moment, a Lincoln original series on the iHeartRadio app, YouTube, or wherever you get your podcasts.

• 33:17Alec Baldwin?

  How were you feeling about yourself and about life that last year in Beverly Hills?

• 33:21Speaker 07

  I think I was scared to death still. I mean, it was just a new form of foreignness, but it had the pattern of something very familiar to me. But, you know, I remember being taken to a party really early on. And I had developed a kind of weird eye beforehand for art. I thought maybe I was going to be a painter or an artist or anything. And I walk into this house and there is a giant David Hockney. And next to it is a giant Motherwell. I'm standing in front of this giant painting that's famous, that I've looked at in books, Thames and Hudson art books, while I was in Durban at the art library of the university.

• 34:03Speaker 07

  I don't know, the world was just very real and different and it was easier to like have sex and it was easier to to function.

• 34:12Alec Baldwin?

  Were you writing?

• 34:14Speaker 07

  I guess I was sort of writing, yeah.

• 34:16Alec Baldwin?

  What were you writing?

• 34:19Speaker 07

  I was writing really bad short stories about alienated Paul Bowles kids adrift in foreign countries, which is basically, to tell you the truth, still what I'm doing. It just looks slightly, the wallpaper's prettier now.

• 34:37Alec Baldwin?

  Where were you living at that age?

• 34:39Speaker 07

  I was living, um. On friends sofas, like the parents of children I went to high school with.

• 34:46Alec Baldwin?

  You were the beloved house guest.

• 34:48Speaker 07

  I was, I was just this freak, you know, and I was at odds with my family at the time, you know, and I had escaped and it was just a nightmare.

• 34:58Alec Baldwin?

  How do we get from there to fair country Gordon Davidson?

• 35:04Speaker 07

  You know, in Pinocchio where he falls in with actors? I'm walking around, I ran into this girl I knew from high school. She said, what are you doing? And I'm sort of looking for a job. I think I'm starving to death. I'm not sure. She said to me, and I should have known, she said, well, my father just fired me. He needs a new assistant.

• 35:29Speaker 07

  He needs a new assistant. And I was like, well, what does he do? And she said, oh, he's a film producer.

• 35:35Alec Baldwin?

  Who was the film producer?

• 35:37Speaker 07

  This great guy and he.

• 35:42Alec Baldwin?

  Was he a working producer? I'm only asking for a name to make it easy.

• 35:44Speaker 07

  So I thought. My first day at the office, he says to me, whatever you do, answer the phones, but never pick up the phone. And I was like, I don't even know what that means. And he said, you'll do fine. And he had a gang of cronies, all of whom had contempt for the studio system and had worked around the edges of it or in it, had done well, fallen out of favor, usually had destroyed themselves through my favorite thing, their own ambivalence. I found myself at home for the first time in my life.

• 36:22Alec Baldwin?

  With a nest of scorpions?

• 36:24Speaker 07

  Yes, I did. I found myself, I said, this I know. Yeah, because nobody is trying to pass. It's a den of thieves.

• 36:32Alec Baldwin?

  We're hitting the ball here.

• 36:33Speaker 07

  It was still the days of speakerphone and they would have fights. They had a tower on Sunset Boulevard. They had a nest of rooms in a tower and they would be fighting with each other and then there would suddenly be a pause. Someone would say, geez, if you could see what I see right now, that girl walking down Sunset, she is so beautiful. The fight was over.

• 36:58Speaker 07

  Nothing meant anything.

• 36:59Alec Baldwin?

  An archaic of sex.

• 37:00Speaker 07

  That's right. One of them asked for a glass of water, this was my first few weeks there. 1982, what do I know? He would go to the sink, bring a glass of water, spit it out, like practically on me, and say, "This isn't water." And I would say, "Yes, it's water. What are you talking about? That's water." He'd say, "I want professional water." And the whole time became about professional water.

• 37:26Alec Baldwin?

  How long did that last?

• 37:29Speaker 07

  Two, three, four, five. Like, four some years?

• 37:33Alec Baldwin?

  No!

• 37:34Speaker 07

  No, but it got-

• 37:35Alec Baldwin?

  You were in the scorpion's nest, looking down at the women's asses for four years?

• 37:39Speaker 07

  And I would copy everything down. And so, at the same time, I started hanging around with these actors. There was a sort of, an equally desperate contingent of avant-gardist, odd playwrights out there in L.A., living on the fringes of everything. And so, I lived between these two worlds, one of which was sort of drunk and druggie, and the other was insane megalomaniac-- I can't say the word.

• 38:12Alec Baldwin?

  Megalomaniacal.

• 38:14Speaker 07

  Thank you.

• 38:15Alec Baldwin?

  That's what I'm here for.

• 38:16Speaker 07

  Megalomaniacal.

• 38:17Alec Baldwin?

  You just think of the words and I'll say them.

• 38:18Speaker 07

  Thank you.

• 38:19Alec Baldwin?

  We're gonna beam each other. Go ahead.

• 38:21Speaker 07

  I know, it's like Bluetooth without the technology.

• 38:24Alec Baldwin?

  Bluetooth me. Go ahead.

• 38:25Speaker 07

  I had to come up with a play for one of these sort of workshop things that we would put together. And one of these playwrights said to me, "So, what's your play?" And me, bullshitting, which is something I just did, I said, "Yeah, it's called Mislansky-Zalinski." On the spot, I just came up with the name.

• 38:42Alec Baldwin?

  Based on those guys?

• 38:43Speaker 07

  Yeah. I said, "Yeah, it's called Mislansky-Zalinski."

• 38:45Alec Baldwin?

  You based it on the guys in the tower?

• 38:46Speaker 07

  It's just them talking. And I put all my notes together, and we did it.

• 38:52Alec Baldwin?

  That was the first one you wrote?

• 38:54Speaker 07

  Yeah.

• 38:55Alec Baldwin?

  Now, you're on Broadway. The show's a big success, people have said wonderful things about the show. I worship Stacy. I mean, I worship Stacy.

• 39:05Speaker 07

  He is-

• 39:06Alec Baldwin?

  He's one of the great wild mustangs of all theater history. And in this piece, it is that Reagan crowd, it is that Bush crowd, it is that blue-blood Republican crowd, conservative crowd.

• 39:20Speaker 07

  Stacy captures that completely. I wrote the part for him.

• 39:23Alec Baldwin?

  He does. You wrote the part for him?

• 39:24Speaker 07

  Oh, yeah. I knew that there was nobody- Who could capture that better, ever? We'd worked together before. He'd done Ten Unknowns at the Taper. And it was a revelation.

• 39:36Alec Baldwin?

  Because the character has to have a dignity as well.

• 39:38Speaker 07

  Yeah.

• 39:38Alec Baldwin?

  Stacy brings in a guy where you sit there and go, "I get it. I would have followed him. I wanted him around."

• 39:44Speaker 07

  He's great. And I love him so much. You know, he and Joe didn't know each other. And so they got on the phone before rehearsal. And Stacy says to Joe, "You know, I've worked with Robbie before. We've worked together before. And I know him well. And do you know him? Have you worked with him? And how well do you know him?" And Joe says, "I kind of know him. And we lived together for 12 years."

• 40:15Speaker 07

  But that Stacy.

• 40:16Alec Baldwin?

  I kind of know him.

• 40:17Speaker 07

  He's like, "Oh, damn." The great thing about Stacy is he brings centuries of actors' honor onto that stage with him. The honor of honoring fellow actors. The honor of listening. The privilege of being an actor. The privilege of being in the theater. Not missing a single show in his 70s. The rituals of it. The privilege of working in the theater is the thing that has been... Of everything that's happened to me, just the great honor of being in the American theater in some capacity is what I'm left with. And it's a privilege to be in it.

• 41:02Speaker 07

  I'm lucky to have found my way back to it.

• 41:05Alec Baldwin?

  What's institutionalized in working in a theater is a hunt for truth.

• 41:09Speaker 07

  Totally.

• 41:10Alec Baldwin?

  That doesn't exist in the movie business and the television business.

• 41:12Speaker 07

  No.

• 41:13Alec Baldwin?

  Do you know what you're doing next? Are you on to something now that you're writing?

• 41:16Speaker 07

  Who knows? I can't tell yet.

• 41:18Alec Baldwin?

  You can't?

• 41:19Speaker 07

  I just can't tell.

• 41:20Alec Baldwin?

  You're scribbling.

• 41:21Speaker 07

  Yeah.

• 41:22Alec Baldwin?

  You're scribbling.

• 41:22Speaker 07

  I'm supposed to be doing things. I'm a mess at all times.

• 41:33Alec Baldwin?

  John Robin Bates says he feels like more of a grown up as of late. When he started out in L.A., he was couch surfing at the homes of his friend's parents. Things are different now.

• 41:45Speaker 07

  I have a home. I grow stuff. I'm responsible to people.

• 41:50Alec Baldwin?

  You have a dog?

• 41:51Speaker 07

  I have a dog. He has three legs.

• 41:53Alec Baldwin?

  What's the dog's name?

• 41:53Speaker 07

  Trip.

• 41:54Alec Baldwin?

  Trip?

• 41:55Speaker 07

  Yeah, he has three legs. He's a great dog.

• 42:01Alec Baldwin?

  I'm Alec Baldwin. Here's the thing is brought to you by iHeart Radio.

• 42:12Speaker 05

  With ChatGPT, you can do more than get answers. You can get things done. Whether you're leading a big project, planning an elaborate trip, or trying to balance work and life, ChatGPT can help. Give it a goal, plus things like files, notes, or project plans, develop a trip itinerary with daily updates, or create a prioritized schedule. So you can spend less energy sorting out the details and more on bringing your biggest ideas to life. Get started at chatgpt.com. This is Jason Timp from Hoops Tonight with Jason Timp. Buy smart, drive for less, and trade for more. That's Toyota affordability. And it starts with a great deal on an off-road-ready Tacoma or half-ton Tundra, two of Toyota's longest-lasting trucks, combining power for work, tech for adventures, and style in between.

• 42:57Speaker 05

  Built on a reputation for quality and reliability, Toyota trucks are known for holding their value, which can mean big savings when it's time for your next Toyota. So get a great deal today and great value tomorrow. Shop toyota.com for more. Toyota, let's go places.

• 43:11Speaker 01

  Breathe in and reset with Lincoln Rejuvenate, an available multi-sensory feature in the 2027 Lincoln Navigator SUV. Experience the luxurious massage, visuals, and sense to help you relax in the driver's seat. It's your time for a reset. Visit lincoln.com to learn more. Lincoln Rejuvenate does not operate unless the vehicle is in park. When the vehicle is off, or if any doors open, do not use the feature in a closed garage or in other enclosed areas. See owner's manual for important operating instructions. Lincoln and Navigator are trademarks of Ford Motorized Affiliates. All rights reserved.

• 43:41Speaker 00

  This is an iHeart Podcast. Guaranteed Human.