S2E11: Mindsight: Seeing Without Eyes

In this finale to Season 2, we explore the phenomenon of “mind sight” - the ability some children and adults claim to develop that allows them to see while blindfolded, and in rare cases, even while blind. From a rural school in England to training programs in India and China, we meet teachers, skeptics, neuroscientists, and families who’ve witnessed the unexplainable ability that often leads to intuition beyond our comprehension. As always, we question what’s real, what’s possible, and whether consciousness might be more powerful and perceptive than we’ve ever imagined. To learn more about The Institute of Absolute Intelligence through the Art of Living foundation visit: https://instituteofai.ai/ To learn more about MindSee and sign up for training visit: https://mindsee.it/ To learn more about Nicola Farmer and the ICU Academy visit: www.nicolafarmer.com http://www.nicolafarmer.com/ or www.icuacademy.co.uk http://www.icuacademy.co.uk/ _______ Join The Telepathy Tapes Backstage Pass https://thetelepathytapes.supercast.com/ to get ad-free episodes, never-before-heard interviews, behind-the-scenes documentary footage, and access to our private Discord community. This is your invitation to come closer. To help shape what’s next. To be more than a listener… to be a co-creator of this paradigm shift. So if you’ve felt moved, if you’ve felt seen, if you’ve felt the call, subscribe today and join us: thetelepathytapes.com. https://thetelepathytapes.com/ See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Ky Dickens?

  Hi, everyone. This is Kai Dickens, and you're listening to the Consciousness Cassettes from TTT Media. In our first series, The Telepathy Tapes, non-speakers showed us that telepathy is possible, shattering our assumptions about the world itself. In this series, we're turning to others who've also been dismissed, doubted, or mocked for the ways they claim to know, see, heal, or create. What if only by listening to those who've been ignored, we could unlock the deepest mysteries of who we are, where we come from, and where we're going? This is the Consciousness Cassettes, and we're opening up the next channel.

• 0:43Ky Dickens?

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• 1:28Ky Dickens?

  start. The process is simple. It's an at-home finger prick. You send it back in the prepared kit, and you get your personalized report online in about three to four weeks. So if you're serious about longevity, or even just curious about whether your body is aging faster or slower than your actual age, this is one of the easiest ways to find out. Right now, go to truediagnostic.com and use code TAPES for 20% off your entire order. That's truediagnostic.com code TAPES for 20% off.

• 1:52Speaker 01

  Salma, tell me what you see on the front. I see a monkey. A monkey. And Mara, tell me the color at the bottom here. Yellow. Fantastic. Well done.

• 2:04Ky Dickens?

  Believe it or not, Selma, whose voice you just heard, answered those questions while wearing a completely blacked-out blindfold, something I used to think was absolutely impossible. Last week, we explored the ability to access and communicate with someone's higher consciousness, even when their brains and bodies are failing them, as in the case with dementia. It posed the question, can some part of us perceive and communicate even when our senses fail us? This week, we're jumping into a world where children all over the globe are being taught to see the world around them without using their eyes. They can read books, identify colors, and even play sports, all while completely blindfolded. We'll seek to understand the validity of this phenomenon, which is spreading like wildfire around the world, to figure out what exactly is going on and can it even be understood scientifically.

• 2:48Ky Dickens?

  Today, you'll meet people who have mastered both teaching and learning the skill from China, India, England, and here in America, including a legally blind man who went through the training and gained vision in a way doctors can't yet explain. I first heard about Mindsight, or seeing through a blindfold, back in 2022, when I was in the middle of my own cognitive dissonance around telepathy and trying to understand how any of this could possibly be real. A parent in Florida, who was also searching for answers, sent me a video from Frank Elariti's YouTube channel about a school in England where neurotypical children were supposedly learning to see without using their eyes.

• 3:22Speaker 02

  Sunny and Lucy are just two of the students who attend this special class in England and can now demonstrate remarkable abilities.

• 3:31Ky Dickens?

  Elariti's video showed kids identifying objects, reading text, even playing games in blindfolds. And the blindfolds appeared legitimate and totally secure, confirmed by a member of the film crew who tried them on.

• 3:41Speaker 02

  Let's have Joe try it.

• 3:42Ky Dickens?

  Yeah.

• 3:43Speaker 02

  Can you see anything?

• 3:44Ky Dickens?

  No, can't see anything. And I love it when skeptical crew members or outsiders add a layer of validation.

• 3:49Speaker 02

  I'm going to write something on this paper, and you'll tell me what I wrote, right? It's gonna be one word.

• 3:57Speaker 03

  Hi.

• 3:59Speaker 02

  That was so fast.

• 4:01Ky Dickens?

  The children showcasing these abilities were students from the ICU Academy in Essex, England, and their teacher was Nicola Farmer. Nicola's approach to teaching Mindsight, a catch-all phrase for seeing through a blindfold, grew out of her own spiritual journey and work over many years. She has taught thousands of individuals and trained hundreds of teachers over 40-plus countries, guiding them in awakening their innate abilities and expanding awareness. I was very skeptical of all of this, and after doing some research, I even saw videos online claiming that this blindfolded vision phenomenon was debunked. But if I've learned one thing from making the telepathy tapes, it's that just because something's been called debunked doesn't necessarily mean that it has been. So I called up Nicola.

• 4:42Speaker 01

  Hi.

• 4:43Ky Dickens?

  Thank you so much for hopping on the phone.

• 4:45Speaker 01

  You're welcome, my love. It's a pleasure.

• 4:47Ky Dickens?

  Nicola and I talked about her school and what's happening as children undergo the training.

• 4:51Speaker 01

  The work we do with the kids is not telepathy and it's not third eye. Seeing is like the ultimate cherry on the top of the cake, if you like. But they can see with what we call the outer consciousness, so effectively their spirit.

• 5:05Ky Dickens?

  When a child takes your class, how long is the entire program?

• 5:10Speaker 01

  10 or 12 sessions and an hour per session, and ideally one week between the sessions. I take them through this sort of ego reprogramming. There's no left brain activity when they're working. We don't even say no to them in a session. We constantly praise them for a whole hour.

• 5:29Ky Dickens?

  Are there successful ICU programs happening in other countries right now? Or is it still mainly in England?

• 5:36Speaker 01

  I've taught people from New Zealand and Australia and North America, South America, Europe, Mongolia. Potentially, we have a team of teachers around the world that can help change the kids. But one child can change a whole family.

• 5:54Ky Dickens?

  After meeting Nicola and still not being clear on how this works or is even possible, I decided to go through the teacher training myself. It laid out a clear methodology and equipped practitioners with what they would need to teach this technique to children. What it didn't answer for me was the biggest question, again, of how any of this might be possible. And like many things, I think I just needed to see it with my own eyes. So when the opportunity arose for me to go to England, I decided to visit Nicola's school and meet some of her students and the teachers that she's trained. And I brought along the biggest lifelong skeptic I know: my dad. Okay, so who's the oldest in here?

• 6:28Speaker 04

  I probably... You're the oldest?

• 6:30Ky Dickens?

  How old are you, Finley?

• 6:32Speaker 05

  Eight.

• 6:32Ky Dickens?

  You're eight. Okay, and how about you, Selma?

• 6:35Speaker 05

  Eight.

• 6:36Ky Dickens?

  You're eight. When we got to Nicola's, I was with a small crew: Michael, my DP, a few audio people and grips, and my dad. Immediately upon entering Nicola's charming house, I met three young kids: Finley, Selma, and Mara. The youngest Mara was feeling a little nervous and didn't speak to us right away. So Finley, tell me how long you've been able to see with a blindfold?

• 6:54Speaker 05

  Um, a year.

• 6:56Ky Dickens?

  Wow, and how about you?

• 6:57Speaker 05

  Uh, a few months.

• 6:59Ky Dickens?

  Wow, just a few months. Did it take you a lot of sessions to be able to see? Or was it pretty quick for you?

• 7:04Speaker 05

  Uh, pretty quick. My second lesson, I could see easily.

• 7:07Ky Dickens?

  And what about for you, Selma?

• 7:08Speaker 05

  Um, quick.

• 7:11Ky Dickens?

  And then tell me what you saw first. Was it pictures in a book, or colors, or shapes? Do you remember?

• 7:17Speaker 05

  It was, um, cards, like with... It's color and like a shape. So let's say Tonya put a card in front of my face, and it was like a pink square. With my blindfold, I had to see this pink square.

• 7:35Ky Dickens?

  And what about for you, Selma?

• 7:37Speaker 05

  Colors.

• 7:37Ky Dickens?

  Colors? And are you able to see things like far away and close up? And tiny things and big things?

• 7:43Speaker 05

  I can see small things and big things. Um, I can see stuff far away that eyes can't even see.

• 7:50Ky Dickens?

  Wait, wait, wait. Things their eyes can't even see? I look at Nicola, their teacher, for clarification.

• 7:56Speaker 01

  They see actually sometimes better than they can with their eyes if they have to wear glasses. They don't need them with a blindfold. They have 20/20 vision.

• 8:05Ky Dickens?

  But how?

• 8:07Speaker 01

  They're seeing consciously through the eyes of their consciousness. That's the best way to describe it. They see every minute detail.

• 8:20Ky Dickens?

  I was excited to put all of this to a test and finally see it for myself. So tell me what you wear on your eyes. Can I see what you're wearing on your eyes?

• 8:29Ky Dickens?

  Let's have one of these guys over here try it on. I grabbed Colum, one of our English crew members, to try on the blindfold.

• 8:34Speaker 06

  I cannot see anything.

• 8:36Ky Dickens?

  Okay, now put your head up, like, look up at the ceiling. Can you see through the bottom of it?

• 8:40Speaker 06

  No, I can see nothing.

• 8:41Ky Dickens?

  Okay, and are these the ones that all of you wear as well?

• 8:44Speaker 04

  Uh huh.

• 8:44Ky Dickens?

  Hey, okay, can you give that to my dad? He's gonna look through it. And Dad, can you please explain for the camera what you have in your hand? And if you can see through it?

• 8:52Speaker 07

  I've got a blindfold and it's got foam rubber. So it conforms to the face. You can't get light through it. And I've tried it. I can't see up or down or sideways. There's no light at all. So this is a remarkably effective blindfold.

• 9:07Speaker 04

  So Finley, let's put a blindfold on you. OK, here we go. OK, is that pretty secure? All right, Selma. And then we're going to put one on you as well, OK?

• 9:15Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 9:16Speaker 04

  OK, good. What do you want to show us first? Should we pick up a book?

• 9:20Speaker 05

  Sure.

• 9:21Ky Dickens?

  Both kids are blindfolded, and I grab a random book from the many in the room.

• 9:24Speaker 08

  Selma, tell me what I'm pointing at right here on this page.

• 9:29Speaker 05

  I'm an octopus.

• 9:31Speaker 08

  Octopus, wow.

• 9:33Ky Dickens?

  I wanted to quickly hold up another visual cue in a different area of their field of vision to see what happens. So I held up two fingers.

• 9:39Speaker 04

  And then Selma, how many fingers am I holding up?

• 9:42Speaker 05

  Two.

• 9:43Speaker 04

  Good. And Finley?

• 9:46Ky Dickens?

  We flip to another page and point to a dolphin.

• 9:48Speaker 04

  Finley, tell me what's on this page here.

• 9:50Speaker 05

  A dolphin.

• 9:51Speaker 04

  A dolphin, good.

• 9:53Ky Dickens?

  I then held out three fingers toward the side of Finley's field of vision.

• 9:56Speaker 04

  Finley, how many fingers do I have up right now?

• 9:59Speaker 08

  Three.

• 9:59Speaker 04

  Great job, Finley.

• 10:01Ky Dickens?

  Mara, the youngest, who's about six, is blindfolded and ready to go. So even though she hasn't spoken yet, I try to bring her into our game.

• 10:07Speaker 04

  All right, Mara, this is really, really tiny. Tell me if you can see this, what I'm pointing to right here.

• 10:13Ky Dickens?

  I point to a tiny little crab on the page.

• 10:18Speaker 04

  Crab, wow, very good. All right, let's have my dad come in and we'll get some more books.

• 10:23Ky Dickens?

  My dad picked out a new book for them to read while blindfolded and hands it to the three blindfolded kids, all sitting in a line on the couch. And Finley begins.

• 10:31Speaker 05

  Miss Lollipop said, "They're, they're there. I didn't get, I didn't get a present." The tearful tiger sighed.

• 10:40Ky Dickens?

  Then Selma took the book and flipped to a new page.

• 10:43Speaker 05

  Miss Lollipop said, "Cheer up." We'll go for a birthday ride.

• 10:50Ky Dickens?

  They started reading a book together, switching off by page. What was really remarkable was how Finley was reading. He would hold the book to the side of his head in a direction that human eyes physically can't see. And he said it was easier for him to read a book that way. I've seen many other kids, they don't see from the same direction where their eyes are. This is Paula, who's Mara and Selma's mother. She was so astounded by what her daughters have accomplished in Nicola's training that she herself has gone through the training and has taught many other kids to do this. The eyes are closed. They're not seen through the blindfold. But also, they're not seen necessarily from here. She holds her left hand toward the back of her head, almost behind her shoulder, where eyes like literally could never see. Here's Nicola jumping in.

• 11:31Speaker 01

  I taught a girl who held the book behind her head. They can develop 360 degree vision as well.

• 11:37Ky Dickens?

  By the end of this episode, you'll hear this from teachers and students, that their vision starts small, almost like a pinhole. And many programs that teach mind sight often call this a window. And the windows tend to get bigger and bigger until they combine and even expand to give someone panoramic or 360 degree like vision. OK, should we go outside and play tag and get some wiggles out? The kids then went out into the garden and started playing with a ball, playing tag all while blindfolded. And eventually, we put memory game cards in the grass and asked them to identify or match pictures.

• 12:07Speaker 08

  Can you pick up all the ladybugs? Wow.

• 12:12Ky Dickens?

  I was constantly looking around each student's head for a hole or crack or a way they could be seeing. And a few times, the blindfold did drift a touch, and I was concerned the child could peek underneath it. But when we'd push it back down, they'd just keep on going with whatever they were doing.

• 12:25Speaker 08

  All right, now, how about the dolphin? Yeah, that was it. You're doing great.

• 12:31Ky Dickens?

  At the end of the day, I asked my dad what he saw and if he thought this was legitimate.

• 12:35Speaker 07

  For most of my life, I've been skeptical of things like seeing with a blindfold on. What I saw today is children wearing these blindfolds who've been able to play catch, play tag.

• 12:48Speaker 07

  Solve, make a jigsaw puzzle, draw, identify things pointed out in a book, colors, shapes, objects.

• 12:56Ky Dickens?

  And we'll put all these videos up on our Supercast channel and some on our YouTube channel in the new year.

• 13:01Speaker 07

  So it's just almost incomprehensible that these kids can do what they do. But I've seen it with my own eyes and they do it. It's just an amazing thing. I tried various tests myself. I held up fingers, held up numbers. And so nobody's telling me what to do. I'm doing it myself. And the kids responded with accuracy. And I think the accuracy was probably 100%. Sometimes they'd have up five fingers and they'd say six. No, no, no, it's five. So the kids would correct themselves if they had a wrong direction in what they were saying. The whole thing is inexplicable, it's amazing, and it's real.

• 13:41Ky Dickens?

  While with Nicola, I asked her to briefly describe some of the tenets of the program and how it works.

• 13:46Speaker 01

  We never ask the children questions. And we try to bypass the left brain as much as we possibly can so that they're functioning in their right brain.

• 13:54Ky Dickens?

  She described that generally, the left side of the brain is known for being logical and analytical, while the right side of the brain is responsible for things like creativity and intuition. At the ICU school, they prefer to train children under the age of 12 because this is the time in the child's life when the left brain hasn't fully kicked in yet. So essentially, it sounds like her training is designed to quiet the part of your brain that would question or maybe even criticize the right brain's free-flowing nature.

• 14:17Speaker 01

  So we don't ask questions. We never say no to the children because as a child hears the word no, they're instantly shut down. And in fact, we don't even say yes to them either. So we're constantly praising them for a whole hour during the session because the praise, it's like you can see them sort of puffing up their feathers and it's like, wow, this is so amazing, I'm getting praise. And the one-to-one attention is incredible.

• 14:42Ky Dickens?

  So how do you communicate with them or have them tell you what they're looking at if you can't ask the question?

• 14:48Speaker 01

  So instead of asking how, why, where or when, we'll say, tell me, show me, explain to me, point to that colour, show me where it is on the page. It's stimulating them to react, to respond to what we're doing without that left brain activation. It works really well. And in fact, you know, I encourage the teachers to do it in their everyday life as well. We try and avoid the children being around sceptical people because that can really have a profound effect on them.

• 15:19Ky Dickens?

  The idea of scepticism impacting someone's ability to perform may seem overly convenient, but it echoes what many of the non-speakers from season one said. Time and time again, they noted that someone's negative energy or negative thoughts can cause energetic friction and become distracting, making concentrating on a task or demonstrating SIe or ESP abilities more difficult.

• 15:40Speaker 01

  We had a brother and a sister that were going through the programme and the father was a complete sceptic. He was an academic and, you know, everything in his world was logical and analytical. And he took his daughter to one of her sessions and we never have the parents in the room working with the teacher and the child. So he was sat in a room behind, but there was glass doors between the two of them. And the little girl was sitting there reading her book and the teacher was facilitating and guiding her and everything. And the father walked towards the room, he became really curious and he put his hand on the door handle and instantly the little girl said, my vision's gone. And when the teacher saw him standing at the door, she beckoned him to move away. And as he took his hand off the door handle, her vision came back.

• 16:26Ky Dickens?

  So what do you think is going on there?

• 16:28Speaker 01

  I think that the energy is so fine and in such a high frequency that they're working in, anybody who comes close who brings that energy down, the children can lose their vision. It's definitely non-physical because their eyes are completely blacked out. Uh, you know, people have tried the blindfolds on, you can't see anything through them, not a speck of light. So when we take them through the program, they go through this activation process where literally we're getting them to bring the light out of their heart. So that light, they then spread it out. Personally, whether you want to call it consciousness, whether you want to call it insight, whether you want to call it

• 17:11Speaker 01

  uh, spirit, they're seeing with an extra vision that is not coming through their eyes. And you witnessed the kids that they see from one side or the other.

• 17:23Ky Dickens?

  She's referring to what we saw earlier, when some of the students appear to be looking out of a different area of their body, so not straight ahead.

• 17:29Speaker 01

  So for me, it's the angle of the vision through their consciousness that directs them in that way that they need to see. So we call it outer consciousness and that's why when a child can read blindfolded, we call it conscious seeing. Their awareness is fully present, they are fully present, their spirit, their energy is fully present.

• 17:51Ky Dickens?

  While in England, I was able to talk to Finley's teacher, Anna, who originally taught him to quote unquote see.

• 17:57Speaker 09

  I'd done the ICU training with Nicola about eighteen months ago. My first case study was Finley. And I was pretty nervous to start off with because you doubt yourself. And there's lots of things to remember really, but he started to see on the first session. I'm certainly seeing colors. And by the second session, he was on to the shapes. And then he just announced, well, that's easy because I can read what it is because it says it underneath. So I was pretty blown away by that. And then he got bored of reading and he wanted to go outside to play football. And when we went outside, he could see about five hundred meters away with a mask on into we've got a Christmas tree farm and he said, there's something red in the trees.

• 18:43Speaker 09

  So I walked him down there and sure enough, there was a red bike in the trees. So it's like, wow, you can see further than I can see with my, with my eyes. I've taught about seventeen children. However, the changes in their life is phenomenal. It seems to open other doors. It certainly has done with Finny, but also a few other children as well. I've noticed, you know, they've become, that they don't know what telepathy means or being psychic, but they certainly seem to be using those sort of things.

• 19:13Ky Dickens?

  And here's where things start to really expand. Nicola's program is far from the only one. All around the world, similar trainings exist. Thousands of miles away in India, children are also being trained to see through a blindfold, but often with different techniques and sometimes even different philosophies, but they still get the same result.

• 19:30Speaker 10

  Hi, my name is Mala Sundarajan and I stay in Bangalore, India, in the International Art of Living Ashram, the International Centre. And I do a lot of work with children and teens.

• 19:45Ky Dickens?

  Mala is the head of the Intuition Process, which is their version of Third Eye Academy at the Art of Living Foundation, a humanitarian and educational organization founded by Sri Sri Ravi Shankar, also known as Guru Dev. Mala says the Intuition Process training began in 2014.

• 20:01Speaker 10

  We had heard about such programs for children where it is possible to really do a lot of so-called magical things, but through delving deep into oneself. And then he said, it's, it's not so difficult if children could practice some of the meditations and some of the techniques and some of the breathing techniques that are there.

• 20:24Ky Dickens?

  So Guru Dev said that there's meditation and breathing exercises, and if kids could be trained to do them, it could open up their greater potential.

• 20:30Speaker 10

  So he had told us what to do, what kind of meditation, what breathing techniques, what to do with the kids. He said, go do this with the kids. Now that was the base for us.

• 20:40Ky Dickens?

  The breathing and meditation exercises Guru Dev told them about had real results that they ended up formally putting into a structured program.

• 20:47Speaker 10

  And then to our great surprise, after that, he went out and we made them do those things. And every kid is able to, you know, hear the thought of the other person. And we are like, what's happening here? Wow, you know, it was an unbelievable moment for us.

• 21:06Speaker 10

  And it really opened up our eyes from inside that anything is possible on this planet. It just needs someone to think about it and to say that it is possible.

• 21:22Ky Dickens?

  Sometimes you have an idea you really believe in, but figuring out how to bring it into the world is what stops you. You know what you want to create, but building a website, setting up payments, and actually getting it into other people's hands can feel like a whole nother job. That's why I love Shopify. We use it for the Telepathy Tapes merch store, where every cent we make supports nonprofits who are serving non-speakers. It makes it easy for our listeners to support our community, and I believe that doing good should be as simple as possible. For anyone getting started, Shopify's pre-built themes and AI site builder help you create a professional-looking store without touching a line of code. And its mobile app lets you manage inventory, customer support, and payments from anywhere. That kind of flexibility matters when your business is one of several things you're pouring your energy into. With Black Friday approaching, launching now means you can take advantage

• 22:05Ky Dickens?

  of the extra online traffic. Give yourself time to get comfortable with your store before the holiday rush. Give that idea that you've been carrying around a place where people can find it. If you're ready to launch your business before Black Friday, go to Shopify.com/tapes to start your free trial. That's Shopify.com/tapes. Go to Shopify.com/tapes today to hear your first...

• 22:28Ky Dickens?

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• 23:12Ky Dickens?

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• 23:42Ky Dickens?

  My team and I paid a visit to the Art of Living Foundation. Its headquarters are in India, but we visited them at their local LA building, where many children are taught the Intuition Process, or Mindsight. We walked into a large space that felt like a church, where several students had flown in to meet us. I had my producer Catherine with me, a cameraman, and even some of our film investors, who were eager to get a glimpse of some of the things we were doing on the ground. We first met Nisa and her teacher Samia. Nisa is 15 years old. The Intuition Process will train children ages 6 to 18, but their approach is a bit different than Nicola's, leaning more on meditation and breathing exercises to help the children get in touch with themselves and their surroundings.

• 24:18Speaker 11

  Hi, I'm Nisa, and I'm in 10th grade. And I started doing it in 2018, so eight years ago.

• 24:24Ky Dickens?

  We also met Samia, one of the experienced teachers there.

• 24:27Speaker 12

  My name is Samia. I'm a pediatrician as well as an Art of Living Intuition Process trainer. I have been working with Nisa and many other children like her for over the last 10 years as well. So, first thing we're gonna do is Nisa is gonna actually wear a blindfold. Wearing a blindfold allows us to see that we are doing these things and knowing things without using our senses. We have this blindfold which is designed specifically for children, and it has a lot of padding underneath and on top, which makes sure that no light is coming through. But still, for the process of the demonstration today, Nisa is also wearing eye patches to make sure that there is absolutely no light coming through to her eyes.

• 25:10Ky Dickens?

  And on top of that, Nisa had taped large Band-Aids over her eyes and under the blindfold to ensure there could be no cheating happening.

• 25:17Speaker 12

  So the first thing we're gonna do is we have this bunch of Uno cards. I'm gonna spread them out on the table right here. I'll invite anybody here to say a card, and then Nisa is gonna pick that one from the table.

• 25:36Ky Dickens?

  I chose a yellow 2 and handed it to Nisa, and she does not look in the direction of the card.

• 25:41Speaker 11

  Yellow 2.

• 25:43Speaker 12

  Good, that's correct. And what about this one? You can hand it to her.

• 25:49Ky Dickens?

  I hand her a red Uno card with the skip symbol. And if you haven't played Uno, it's like a white circle with a line through it, meaning your turn is skipped.

• 25:57Speaker 11

  Red skip.

• 25:59Ky Dickens?

  Is that correct?

• 26:00Speaker 08

  Yeah.

• 26:00Ky Dickens?

  Yeah, it is correct. Good. Our producer Catherine then grabbed a random book, opened to a page, and pointed to a line for Nisa to read. And again, Nisa's physical eyes don't seem to be looking in the direction of the book.

• 26:13Speaker 11

  To consume bananas that are green or don't have any spots yet.

• 26:31Speaker 08

  Catherine, you want to read it?

• 26:33Speaker 13

  Yeah. Uh, try not to consume bananas that are green or don't have any spots yet.

• 26:38Speaker 08

  Wow, good job.

• 26:40Ky Dickens?

  Even though she had taped bandages over her eyes and a blindfold on, she could do any task we threw her way, whether it was reading, copying images, selecting cards. It was so unbelievable that at some point, we even checked her ears to make sure there was no walkie or audio device in them. My team and I drew different drawings while she was blindfolded, and she copied them with almost exact precision. Nisa was able to even identify energetically which one of us drew which picture, something that she'd never even tried before, and she was accurate.

• 27:06Speaker 08

  Do you think you'd be able to tell who drew that one?

• 27:08Speaker 11

  I'm not sure. Let's try.

• 27:11Ky Dickens?

  Okay.

• 27:11Speaker 08

  Okay.

• 27:12Speaker 11

  I think this person drew it.

• 27:13Speaker 08

  Yeah.

• 27:14Ky Dickens?

  That's correct.

• 27:16Speaker 08

  Nice job.

• 27:17Ky Dickens?

  Nisa, you mentioned you could feel the things that you're putting your attention on. Can you see it visually, or are you feeling it? Like, can you explain what it's like?

• 27:24Speaker 11

  When I feel it, it's like the thing that I'm kind of like feeling or holding, like the image pops up into my brain.

• 27:32Ky Dickens?

  So it helps to actually touch it?

• 27:34Speaker 11

  Yeah.

• 27:35Speaker 08

  If you were around a room of people who didn't believe in you, or really skeptical people, does it diminish your ability to do it at all, or does it not matter?

• 27:44Speaker 11

  No, it doesn't really matter. Like, I don't like try to force like the idea of intuition on like people that don't believe it. That's why they got out of school. I just tell the people that I know like will understand it and they actually take it seriously. I don't, yeah, but it doesn't like actually affect my abilities.

• 28:00Ky Dickens?

  This is unusual and different from what Nicola in England had said about negative doubtful energy affecting the ability to perform. And when I contemplated this, I thought about teaching my own kids new skills. We shower them with positive thinking because if someone tells you over and over again, you won't be able to do it, or you can't do it, or it's impossible, the mind tends to believe it. Belief in something often works hard enough for it to become true. But the more confident you get in something and the more you know you can do it, that doubt wanes. And Nisa has been doing this for almost eight years. She's older, more mature, and way more confident in her ability. However, one thing that was very unusual is Nisa said the skill becomes increasingly more difficult as she gets older.

• 28:36Speaker 11

  I think it just like as age went on, like it kind of like got harder.

• 28:42Ky Dickens?

  Why do you think that is?

• 28:43Speaker 11

  I feel like even doing the process every day, the school system kind of made me trust my logic more than my senses, yeah.

• 28:50Ky Dickens?

  Do you think it heightens any other abilities?

• 28:53Speaker 11

  Yeah, academic, emotional, my like relationship with myself, others. I'm more easygoing. Um, yeah, it helps in every single aspect of life. I don't second guess myself once I make decisions.

• 29:06Ky Dickens?

  Nisa is basically talking about trusting her intuition, something people often have a hard time naming, let alone doing. That's part of what's so fascinating about what they're teaching here. They seem to be connected more deeply to themselves, which in turn allows them to more deeply connect with the world around them. We next met two sisters who are older and more advanced in their Mindsight practice. They showed us the many things they can do while blindfolded, like play video games, draw, read, and identify objects. But their practice has advanced well beyond just seeing without their physical eyes into a heightened level of intuition, even turning on gifts of ESP or extrasensory perception.

• 29:39Speaker 14

  So my name is Duani, I'm 22, I live in Toronto, Canada. My name is Nibi, I'm 17. I also live in Toronto, Canada. If we're talking about the intuition process, we did it 10 years ago.

• 29:51Ky Dickens?

  And do you feel like from when you started to now, have your abilities heightened or lessened or changed in any way?

• 29:58Speaker 14

  I think our practice has been very regular over the years. So we haven't really changed much. Our abilities haven't changed much. We've enhanced them with our practice, that's for sure.

• 30:09Ky Dickens?

  And how so? Like, if you were to talk to someone who knows nothing about this, where would you say you've started and where are you now?

• 30:16Speaker 14

  It's kind of hard to say because I feel like there is really no end to enhancing your abilities ever. But when we started, we were able to do basic things like coloring or like reading. Yeah. Reading. Or identifying colors. But then slowly, as we started practicing more and more, we were able to help find missing people and make predictions. Objects. Yeah.

• 30:40Ky Dickens?

  Oh, wow. OK, so kind of like remote viewing, like you can find where people are.

• 30:45Speaker 14

  Yeah.

• 30:46Ky Dickens?

  Devani and Nidhi's practice has taken them to new places where their intuition and abilities go beyond the physical in front of them. Since they've learned to trust themselves, they've expanded into other gifts like clairvoyance. And they seem very nonchalant about the whole thing. But to me, this was such a revelation regarding why this type of thing could be important, especially in terms of teaching kids early. And that's intuition? Like, when you are finding someone, how does that work? Do you see like a coordinate? Or do you just know where they're at? Like, explain that.

• 31:14Speaker 14

  So we close our eyes and we can kind of see where they're sitting or what's around them or the paths that they were walking before they got lost. And then if we can see a restaurant near them or if we can read something that's nearby, we can try to identify by that. OK, yeah, they're by this restaurant. Or they were sitting in this car when they got lost.

• 31:43Ky Dickens?

  When you're doing that, will you see it in the past? Like, this is where they were? Or this is where they're at right now? Or this is where they're going? Like, how does that work with time?

• 31:51Speaker 14

  So we can kind of see like a video of them walking out of their house. And then, too, they walked here and now they're here. Or they stopped here in the middle. Or they ate this, or they met with this person. We see like landmarks or things that are really famous in the area. And then we're able to help people by that. It all just depends, like. It just comes to us. So it's really no way of really being like, okay, this is going to come to us or this won't come to us. It just happens naturally.

• 32:23Speaker 08

  Right, and sometimes it probably won't, right? It's like, you can't force it, it sounds like, correct?

• 32:29Speaker 14

  Yes.

• 32:30Ky Dickens?

  Devani and Nidhi went on to describe a remarkable story of when their family friend was sick and from an entirely different country, they sensed the urgency of his condition and insisted that he go to the hospital.

• 32:39Speaker 14

  So one of her family friends, he wasn't feeling well. And like Nidhi and I were like, okay, you need to go to the ER right now.

• 32:46Speaker 15

  It happened on a Sunday. I was feeling pain in my left shoulder.

• 32:52Ky Dickens?

  That's Nidhi and Devani's family friend, Ashutosh, recounting what happened to him in 2024.

• 32:57Speaker 15

  Sunday, whole day passed, Monday passed.

• 33:00Ky Dickens?

  Ashutosh chalked it up to a pulled muscle and didn't think anything serious was going on.

• 33:04Speaker 15

  I laugh at myself that why did I think that this is a simple muscle catch or muscle pull or what have you? And that's what I believed. I was thinking that, no, no, no, it'll subside.

• 33:17Ky Dickens?

  But his pain didn't subside that day, and the family grew increasingly concerned.

• 33:21Speaker 15

  Tuesday morning, we went to see a walk-in clinic where there is a doctor. And the doctor also confirmed that, no, it's just a muscle catch. My wife asked, should we not go to the emergency? And the doctor said, no, no need. Testing can add well or what have you. We came home.

• 33:40Ky Dickens?

  Ashutosh knew about Devani and Nidhi's training and trusted their intuition based on past experience. So they gave the girls a call.

• 33:46Speaker 14

  In the most respectful way possible, I deeply felt that he shouldn't listen to the doctor. I had a sense of panic and they called an ambulance. And thank God they came in time. And it turns out like he had a 72-hour heart attack.

• 33:59Speaker 08

  And he could have passed away if he didn't go to the hospital.

• 34:03Speaker 15

  There was a full blockage in one of my arteries.

• 34:07Speaker 14

  It's like he could have, he would have not made it.

• 34:14Ky Dickens?

  So if a middle-aged man is having chest pain, it's not uncommon to suggest they go to a doctor. You know, what made this different for you?

• 34:21Speaker 14

  It was like a really, really clear knowing. It's like, if I said to you right now, "My hair is orange," you would say, "No, it's not. I could see. It's black or brown." It's just I knew from the inside. Like, he said, the doctor said, "I could stay at home and rest." And I knew from the inside, "No, you cannot. You should be at the hospital right now, getting treatment."

• 34:41Ky Dickens?

  And all of this is just the tip of the iceberg. We heard from a neuroscientist about instances where individuals who were born blind are establishing fields of vision through Mindsight training, or as they would call it, "extraocular training." I was pointed in the direction of a man named John, who was born blind but has been working with a Mindsight teacher to establish a field of vision.

• 34:59Speaker 16

  My name is John Herzog, and I am a person who has been legally blind since birth.

• 35:06Ky Dickens?

  So as a legally blind person, I'm so curious about your journey establishing vision through Mindsight.

• 35:11Speaker 16

  In truth, it actually started with my father because he has always encouraged us, growing up, to have open minds. And if we don't know about something, ask questions about it. And so, one day, he told me about a documentary he had watched showing children who were practicing the ability to see without their eyes. They made a claim that we have the capacity to see with all the cells of our body. They mentioned a few teachers, one of whom was teaching a certain modality in the United States. I got in contact with them. I had an amazing experience

• 35:52Speaker 16

  where I was actually able, blindfolded, to see my own light. So when I held my hands in front of my face, I could see the light from my hands. And I also started getting really good at just intuitively knowing where objects were. I did that for about two years or so, and I kind of reached a plateau. I was able to generally tell where objects were, but I wasn't really progressing past that point. I met with a lady who told me about a system called Vision Without Eyes, and they used a completely different modality to get people to open their mind sight, as it was called.

• 36:34Ky Dickens?

  John got in touch with the head of the program to pick his brain.

• 36:38Speaker 16

  He said that he was not sure of what the results would be for a completely blind person who had never seen. The majority of people that he worked with were sighted. I went to Vision Without Eyes in January of this year, 2025.

• 36:53Ky Dickens?

  What really impressed John the most was that the trainer he was working with had total confidence that he could do this, that he could see, even though he was blind.

• 37:00Speaker 16

  She absolutely knew that it was possible for everybody to see with their mind's eye, and she exuded that level of confidence when she worked with me.

• 37:11Ky Dickens?

  John noted that her confidence in his ability to learn to see, even though he was blind, helped him believe that he could. And just like the children you met in England, John was able to sense or quote unquote "see" objects more clearly when they were positioned in certain locations around his body.

• 37:26Speaker 16

  She would find the areas where I was most sensitive, and then she would put the object near that area. So it might be the top of my head, it might be the side of my head, it might be the back of my head. And then she'd say, okay, your job is just to tell me when the object is up or down, when it's in or out of where you can feel it from. I started getting more and more accurate during our training session, and it wasn't until after our training exercise was over that she told me, hey, look, I'm standing behind you, you would not have been able to see this even if you were fully sighted. And I was blown away.

• 38:01Ky Dickens?

  And so what does that feel like for you as a seeing person? It's so hard to even understand what that experience would be like.

• 38:08Speaker 16

  During this training, they encourage you to tune into your body and your intuition and to pick up on any sensations that you might be getting. I continued to work with the other trainers in Vision Without Eyes. So it transitioned from being able to feel generally where something was at or just get an intuitive sensation of something to then, if I really concentrated hard, being able to see like silhouettes and the outlines of the edges of objects.

• 38:35Ky Dickens?

  So all of the ideas that you have about yourself and your world were built on the assumption that you'd never be able to see? And how has it changed your world and life now?

• 38:44Speaker 16

  I do think it's liberating to be able to see things move. And that's pretty cool to be able to just reach my hand down and grab it directly. As I said to you earlier, I didn't initially see anything when I was in my blindfold. But yet, I felt something. I clearly felt something when the yellow object was near my hand. And I felt it in a consistent and persistent way. And it was a way that I could understand because it was my sense of touch. Yellow would often tingle on the whole right side of my shoulder and my body. It would often be a warm sensation. So that was very moving.

• 39:24Speaker 16

  And it got even more moving because when new colors were introduced, like green, blue, red, each one of those had a persistent and consistent feeling about it. So for example, red would tingle my palms. Blue would tingle my elbow. Orange would tingle my wrist. And it was so moving to think that a higher part of me not only knew what the colors were, but it knew how to communicate those to me in a way that I would understand it as a completely blind person. I had talked with an optometrist when I was about 12 or 13,

• 40:07Speaker 16

  and she had suggested that if the brain was not exposed to colors and shapes and things like this in a visual perspective, by the age of 10 or so, it would be too late to learn it. And to experience the opposite, to experience that I actually was learning it in my way, and not only that, but to experience the higher part of myself translating this seemingly unknowable, unperceivable thing into a method that I could perceive, that, that part was, I was just so emotional about it.

• 40:44Ky Dickens?

  So, yeah, I mean, this is beautiful. And do you think this has to do with something scientific that we don't yet understand? Or do you think it has to do with the higher self or soul? And if so, how is that higher self influencing you on this sort of, you know, plane of existence?

• 40:59Speaker 16

  Well, I think that myself, my higher self would have to be, it's a part of myself that I am not fully aware of that would have to be involved. Because how else could it translate so reliably and consistently those colors and those shapes into something that I could understand? This whole experience has shown me that I, and frankly, you and everybody else, we are bigger than any thought or idea or story we could ever have about ourselves. Even the greatest ones, the grandest ones. What you have to do is you kind of have to let the universe, let your higher self take over

• 41:41Speaker 16

  and show you how it wants to communicate with you. You have to show that you are open to the communication.

• 41:51Ky Dickens?

  From the very beginning, I've seen the skepticism around this training. There's online videos debunking it or insisting it's all a trick. The people are simply peeking. And I don't doubt that deception may exist in some places, but there are things that just don't add up if we try to wave all of this away. First is an assumption that thousands of teachers, parents, and children are lying. And having met so many of them, that just doesn't track for me. And there's so many cases that don't fit the peeking narrative at all. People seeing from the sides or backs of their heads, and people like John, who've been blind since birth. I mean, how can you peek when you're blind? And he isn't the only blind person reporting gaining vision by doing mind sight training. The gold standard is blind people.

• 42:29Speaker 17

  Right? If they've been able to be trained, which they have, we've been able to train these blind people to see using these methods, and it's impossible for them to cheat.

• 42:40Ky Dickens?

  This is neuropsychologist Anne Desalar. This phenomenon recently caught her attention, and she started dedicating a lot of her time to researching what exactly is happening here.

• 42:49Speaker 17

  I'm Dr. Anne Desalar. I'm a neuropsychologist. I'm based in New York City. I've been intrigued about the relationship between the brain and the mind and consciousness since I started meditating when I was 17.

• 43:01Ky Dickens?

  Dr. Desalar's dedication to understanding the mechanism behind this extraocular vision has led to a lot of preliminary testing. And I asked Dr. Desalar what her take was on the claims that this can all be chalked up to cheating.

• 43:13Speaker 17

  You know, I've definitely thought that all these people were cheating. And so as a scientist, I've really been trying to prove that they are cheating, and I can't yet. And so some of the questions that we've been asking is, you know, is this small amount of light getting in?

• 43:31Ky Dickens?

  From a scientific standpoint, I guess the simplest hypothesis is that they're still receiving visual information through tiny leaks of light. And often, teachers purposely allow some light in at the beginning of training. Teachers I've met say those small cracks of light often help children feel comfortable enough to transition to complete darkness.

• 43:48Speaker 17

  It does help to start with a small amount of light coming in and then decrease that small amount of light to really nothing.

• 43:55Ky Dickens?

  Dr. Desalar's team has tested whether people can still do this when light is completely blocked, not just around the eyes, but around the entire face. Some researchers have even wondered whether light might be entering through the skin. So her goal was to eliminate every source of light.

• 44:09Speaker 17

  We've used these shields that we've been putting over the masks to varying degrees. We've put patches and Band-Aids over the eyes, and we've covered the noses, put like Band-Aids over the noses, too. These entire hoods over the head, and these have all been overcome to varying degrees. And here's the kicker, even blind people.

• 44:42Ky Dickens?

  Okay, so let's assume this ability to see without using our eyes is possible. What is going on here physiologically or scientifically? I checked in with neuroscientist Dr. Jeff Tarrant, who was featured in episode two this season. He had the opportunity to run brain scans on students who've developed extra ocular vision.

• 44:57Speaker 18

  Just a few weeks ago, I had the opportunity to go visit with a young woman who had learned this process through the Intuition Process, which is affiliated with the Art of Living program. When I talked with her, she said she really hasn't been practicing that much. She meditates every day, but really only does the mind sight for demonstrations. I went and visited her at her house, and we set up a whole testing procedure. We were there for quite a long time. So before we even got started with doing the testing, I did some baseline brain mapping. So it's a quantitative EEG with 19 channels to measure her brainwave activity. And we did baselines in several different conditions. So we did eyes closed, we did eyes open,

• 45:40Speaker 18

  and then probably the most valuable was doing it eyes open and having her look at the same kind of stimuli that she would be looking at with the blindfold on. And so I think that was a really important comparison because then we're comparing apples to apples in terms of what the task is. The only difference is the blindfold. So we got all these baselines. She put the blindfold on, inspected it again once it was on to see if there was any gaps around the edges at all. And anywhere there was even a slight gap, I stuck cotton balls in there as a way to block any possible light seepage. What was interesting is that the way that she does her mind sight most of the time is actually with her eyes closed. So her eyes are closed and the blindfold's on.

• 46:25Speaker 18

  So we started with that because that's what she's more familiar with. It's what she's more comfortable with. But the first test we did was with 15 playing cards. I would hand her a card. She would hold it up in front of her, just like she did during the baseline testing, and identify what it was. So we did 15 cards. She got them all right.

• 46:43Ky Dickens?

  Jeff continued to run a series of tests with her using a lot of items he brought himself as another control variable. When asked to identify objects, she got every single one correct. He spent hours on testing and had a lot of data to sort through, but he explained some of the preliminary findings.

• 46:57Speaker 18

  There were some significant changes in her brainwave activity, and the biggest changes were really in the theta and alpha frequencies. The theta and the alpha increased dramatically, especially in the occipital lobe. And the occipital lobe is at the very back of the brain, and its primary responsibility is visual processing.

• 47:20Ky Dickens?

  The part of the brain responsible for sight. What surprised Jeff is that the visual system lit up while she was quote unquote "seeing" in ways that shouldn't have been possible, as if the brain was receiving visual information, even if the eyes weren't the ones bringing it in.

• 47:35Speaker 18

  I did some more in-depth analysis to look at all the different parts of the brain back there involved in visual processing, and all of them lit up the same way. Why would the alpha and the theta increase so dramatically, especially in the back of the head? It's common for alpha to be really strong in the back of the head when our eyes are closed and we're resting. But remember, the eyes are open in both of these circumstances. Another aspect of alpha that's important is this sort of inhibition process. So part of what alpha does is filters information. But then theta, theta's even more interesting because theta's a really slow brainwave. And again, it was in the same spot in the

• 48:17Speaker 18

  back of the head. And so one idea that we have is that maybe what's happening is that she's actually not using the eyes to pick up this information. But somehow she's getting this information, and the brain is still translating it. It's still turning it into a visual image. And so it makes sense that it's showing up in the occipital lobe, and it may be using theta as a way to essentially integrate and facilitate the development of that image.

• 48:47Ky Dickens?

  Brain imaging can't tell us how information is entering the system, or even whether it truly is. But it can tell us how the brain behaves during the experience. And that's interesting. Dr. Anne Desalar, the neuropsychologist you met earlier, has been studying these mechanisms as well.

• 49:00Speaker 17

  So we put EEGs on kiddos. We're seeing electrical activity in their brains that are similar to what happens when they see things without the blindfold, which is so cool. So the visual cortex is kind of lit up. And then it may also have to do with alpha brainwaves, midbrain activation. There may be photoreceptors in the skin.

• 49:20Ky Dickens?

  Some researchers are exploring whether the body may sense light in more ways than we've previously understood. We already know that the skin contains light-sensitive molecules that respond to illumination. That doesn't mean that the skin sees the way eyes do, but vision is ultimately processed in the brain. And we're likely still learning different kinds of information the brain can receive.

• 49:39Speaker 17

  I mean, think about our cell phones. They receive data through these invisible cellphone waves. And we believe that. But we don't believe that there may be other ways we can receive information. Perhaps we're picking up on signals that we haven't been able to measure and maybe deliver through fields that we haven't discovered yet. Dr. Ben Kilmandy at Yale, he hypothesizes that, you know, potentially it's due to a reorganization of the neuronal networks. So if you think about our visual system, it's become inundated with information, almost 100 gigabytes of data a day. And when this stimulus is taken away,

• 50:20Speaker 17

  the brain may search to fill that input through other senses.

• 50:25Ky Dickens?

  And this connects back to an idea we've talked about throughout this series: the possibility that the brain may not just create experience, but also filter it. If that's true, then what we normally call reality may only be a narrow slice of what we're capable of perceiving. When one channel gets quiet, like vision through the eyes, it may allow other pathways to open in ways we're only beginning to explore.

• 50:46Speaker 17

  It might be a combination of all of these things, and we really can't measure it yet. But the important part is that there's more than me, see, I, no pun intended. But we're capable of sensing these sort of things and training this skill. And I just wonder what else there is that we're not sensing and that we can train.

• 51:11Ky Dickens?

  Anne's question is a big one. If this is a trainable skill, then what else could we learn to access? And in some parts of the world, that question is not theoretical. In China, large-scale programs are actively teaching children to develop mind sight, not as a curiosity, but as a real trainable human ability.

• 51:28Speaker 06

  Many parents send their children to those training facilities as extracurricular activity with the aim, actually, to mainly to boost their school performance.

• 51:40Ky Dickens?

  Dr. Simon Duan, a Cambridge-trained material scientist and founder of the MetaComputics Labs, said that hundreds of schools teaching this form of perception exist all over China. And the country has been taking mind sight seriously since the 70s. And the interest actually started with one boy.

• 51:56Speaker 06

  The story actually started in 1979. A boy was discovered. We call it ear, ear sight. So basically, people write a character, write a word, and put in a piece of paper and give to him. He can put in his ears. Then he can tell you what's written in that piece of paper.

• 52:20Ky Dickens?

  He's referring to the case of an 11-year-old boy named Tang Yu, who was said to be able to identify written characters placed inside of his ear.

• 52:27Speaker 06

  This phenomenon triggered wide range of interest all over China. Many kids have been discovered. They can do the same. They can put the piece of paper with the written characters into different parts of the body, such as in the armpits.

• 52:45Ky Dickens?

  So in China, they were saying you could write a symbol on a piece of paper, give it to a child, who would then touch it to their ear or their foot or even under their armpit, and they could read it.

• 52:54Speaker 06

  They can manage what's written in that piece of paper. Then this started interest from research institutes, universities.

• 53:06Ky Dickens?

  A 1992 Chinese study described experiments at Hangzhou University, where children were trained to read with their ear, meaning they were instructed to concentrate. And attempt visual perception through a non-visual channel. And in this study, over 1,000 students were trained to do this. And researchers reported that a significant subset appeared able to correctly identify written information placed near the ear at rates above chance. Some deemed the work controversial, but there was enough in it that the US intelligence agencies took the myriad of reports coming out of China seriously enough to investigate them. These reports became a body of material that was collected by the CIA and included in an analysis of human perception and cognition. The released documents note that these demonstrations and the schools where they were being taught

• 53:48Ky Dickens?

  should not be dismissed out of hand and that the phenomenon warranted further attention.

• 53:53Speaker 06

  And that's how I get into Chinese psychical research circle. I learned a lot of things about what's happening behind the scenes.

• 54:01Ky Dickens?

  And Dr. Duon's experience behind the scenes indicates that China has invested far more time and resources into cultivating these abilities in children than most countries ever have.

• 54:11Speaker 06

  There's a lot of kids come through. At the beginning, the kids are trained to sense the color of cards without looking at it. They can blindfold them, but they can develop this ability by touching the cards or smell the card or listen to the card. So it's very strange, but it works. All the cards are made from the same amount of paper, but they can manage to figure out what the color of the card is. But this is only the beginning.

• 54:49Ky Dickens?

  This is how much of the Mindsight training in the West begins as well, identifying colors of cards.

• 54:54Speaker 06

  Then they gradually develop that mind vision. Those colors appear as a vision, as a color in their mind. But the mind vision become further developed. Once that happen, they can recognize the writing on a piece of paper.

• 55:14Speaker 06

  You write something on a piece of paper. You fold it many times. And you give to the kids. And the kids are able to have that information displayed in their mind vision.

• 55:27Ky Dickens?

  So this is taking mind sight beyond identifying colors or shapes into the ability to perceive written information sealed away from physical sight entirely.

• 55:36Speaker 06

  When the mind vision becomes clearer, become more stable, they are able to store information in their mind vision, like a photograph. They can just scan a page of book. Then the information is in their mind vision as a scan. When you use the computer scanner. So it's not a memory. We sometimes call it the photograph of memory. But it's actually a storage. With this storage, you can actually read the text backwards. The next stage is that they can just flip the book,

• 56:20Speaker 06

  get all the pages into their mind in seconds. Yeah. Yeah, no matter how thick the book is, you just flip the book. All the pages' information get to their mind.

• 56:34Ky Dickens?

  In these schools, mind sight doesn't end when you can see with a blindfold on. For some students, it evolves into being able to rapidly scan pages and in some cases, entire books, storing them mentally as if they'd been photographed.

• 56:47Speaker 06

  Yeah, if you ask them, what's the content in page 13, for example, they can read out for you. And then the next stage is actually they can gather information remotely.

• 57:01Ky Dickens?

  I love this conversation because Simon is actually laying out a map of where these skills can go and how they can be built upon.

• 57:07Speaker 06

  It's not just the imagination. It's not just a hallucination. It actually works.

• 57:13Ky Dickens?

  And when I asked Simon how many schools he thinks are teaching this in China, he said thousands. It's not fringe.

• 57:20Speaker 06

  But in China, there are tens of thousands of students. It's everywhere.

• 57:24Ky Dickens?

  Tens of thousands of students are learning this in China. That alone should make the most skeptical among us sit up. Because if other countries are leaning into what they see as the next horizon of human potential, then blind skepticism isn't just doubt. It could actually become a liability.

• 57:40Speaker 06

  The training of children to acquire sight ability has boomed. There's more and more training facilities popping up everywhere. Many parents send their children to those training facilities with the aim to boost their school performance.

• 57:59Ky Dickens?

  So while some people and even countries like China invest in these skills, train and expand what they believe is possible, nations and people who dismiss this outright may one day find themselves left behind while others leap forward.

• 58:13Speaker 03

  Children with supernatural abilities often find significant benefits in their academic studies and many aspects of daily life. They tend to find learning easy and enjoyable, experience frequent inspiration, and maintain good interpersonal relationships.

• 58:33Ky Dickens?

  This is Danny Lee, a head teacher from one of these many schools in China. And teacher Lee notes that an entire ecosystem of training has been established, including teachers who master these skills themselves. And here's her words through an English translator.

• 58:47Speaker 03

  In mainland China, extrasensory perception training serves as the foundation for all supernatural abilities. Their instructors themselves must process a certain foundation in extrasensory perception to better understand and comprehend this field and continuously enhance the children's ability.

• 59:08Ky Dickens?

  And though all teachers have their own way of training, Danny says she rarely uses blindfolds when she begins with new students.

• 59:14Speaker 03

  I actually really have children wear blindfolds or eye masks in my teaching. I usually have them close their eyes or keep them open while placing the playing cards or color cards where they cannot see them. For example, place the playing cards face down on the table and have the children sense them without touching the cards. From the very beginning of training, strict measures are taken to prevent cheating, ensuring the development of genuine abilities.

• 59:52Ky Dickens?

  If China is already training children to develop these capacities, to me, it's a bit of a silent verification, and maybe the effort shouldn't be trying to prove this is real, but encouraging as many people out there to explore it for themselves. And that became true for me as well. I wanted to see if my own kids could learn, so I turned back to Anne Desolard for her guidance. She was a scientist who originally set out to test whether mind sight was even real. She began as a skeptic, but after research, repeated testing, and results she couldn't dismiss, Anne now believes that this is a genuine trainable ability. She's founded an organization called MindC to not just continue research, but to train kids, and she's developed a curriculum to teach it responsibly. And though many schools and teachers who teach mind sight say it takes weeks or even months to learn,

• 1:00:35Ky Dickens?

  Anne says that she can often have children seeing with a blindfold on within hours or even days. So I asked her if she'd come to our telepathy tape studio and teach my own kids, who are ages six and 11. And to me, they felt like the best candidates to test this out for this episode, because they're brutally honest and don't tolerate any BS. In fact, when my son went through the wand shop at Harry Potter World and realized the magic was just animatronics, he started yelling at the top of his lungs, "It's a scam", and marched out of the building screaming at employees for trying to trick him. And when my daughter overheard an interview I did about near-death experiences, she quietly said to me, "Mom, um, that's really hard to believe." So my kids are not ones to just fall in line or be polite. Anne starts by guiding them through simple meditation exercises, helping their bodies settle and their minds grow quiet,

• 1:01:21Ky Dickens?

  creating a state of openness before anything else happens. She also did some ocular exercises, having them kind of look in different directions to get them familiar with their eye muscles.

• 1:01:29Speaker 13

  We're going to do some more of that meditation that we were doing earlier. And we're going to do some breathing and really slowly open up those windows.

• 1:01:40Ky Dickens?

  We mentioned this earlier, but Anne and others refer to the visual field while blindfolded as mental windows. So when she says your windows are opening, she means the area around your head where you're picking up the visual information. And like we talked about, it's different for everyone. For some, it's on the side of the head or the front, or even completely behind the head.

• 1:01:57Speaker 13

  Our fun job today is to look at those windows. And the reason why we call it Mind See is because your mind sees it. And like I said, it's not magic. It's a muscle. So we're just here to strengthen that muscle. And we have to remember that you're safe and you're loved. And the most important thing is to remember that you can do this. And if you can do something that you thought was impossible, what else can you do?

• 1:02:28Ky Dickens?

  She started the training with color cards and colored pieces of paper.

• 1:02:31Speaker 13

  So we're going to start with some colors. So I'm going to give you a piece of paper.

• 1:02:37Ky Dickens?

  She gave my son a piece of paper, and he was able to identify the color almost immediately.

• 1:02:42Speaker 13

  I'd like you to hold it and get to know it. And what color do you think it could be?

• 1:02:50Ky Dickens?

  My son seemed to pick it up very quickly. And like I said earlier, anyone who's met him knows how passionately angry he gets if he's being deceived, misled, tricked, or made a fool.

• 1:02:59Speaker 13

  All right. Now I'm going to give you another one.

• 1:03:03Ky Dickens?

  She then holds up a very tough color to see, black, and then green, and he got them both right.

• 1:03:08Speaker 13

  Oh, black. Black. Good job. So now what's happening? So I'm holding this piece of paper. You're not even touching it, and you're still getting it. Green. Yes. Yes. Great job.

• 1:03:20Ky Dickens?

  And then one after another.

• 1:03:21Speaker 13

  How about this one? One? Yeah. Good job, buddy. This one? Yep.

• 1:03:34Speaker 13

  I cannot believe you're doing it. He's amazing. He's so amazing. Green. Yeah. Oh, my gosh. I love how fast you are at this. I can't believe it. Now, remember, the most important thing is to know that you can do this and to have faith in it, right?

• 1:03:50Ky Dickens?

  You know, that makes me think, August, that you really believed that you could do it. My daughter is a bit older, and it took longer for her windows to open. But once they did, she was in a total flow state. And something I found interesting is there's such a playful nature to this. Anne describes it as being joyful and playful with the universe because it wants to show itself to you.

• 1:04:09Speaker 17

  There we go.

• 1:04:12Speaker 13

  Purple?

• 1:04:13Speaker 08

  Yeah, that's very good.

• 1:04:14Speaker 17

  See? Very good. It's my smell. I love your smell. Things just feel much better, right?

• 1:04:19Speaker 13

  It's true. Orange.

• 1:04:21Speaker 08

  Yes, excellent.

• 1:04:23Speaker 17

  Nice.

• 1:04:25Speaker 13

  Pink.

• 1:04:25Speaker 17

  Yes, so good. Yeah, I got this girl.

• 1:04:29Speaker 08

  Yeah, very good.

• 1:04:30Speaker 17

  So the important part now is to feel in your body when you're in flow like that and you're doing one after the other. That's what being in flow really is.

• 1:04:38Speaker 08

  But when you got it wrong, which is gonna happen, did that, like, and then you start getting it right? Could you see it more clearly or what happened? I don't know, but the colors were more like vivid and bright than before. They were more like... Vivid? Yeah.

• 1:04:52Speaker 17

  Can you touch on your mask where it's coming in?

• 1:04:54Speaker 08

  I want to see that too, hold on.

• 1:04:56Speaker 17

  Yeah.

• 1:04:56Ky Dickens?

  She pointed to two areas on her mask where she said her windows were forming. One was over her right eye and one was higher up on the left side of the mask.

• 1:05:04Speaker 08

  So that's where it's coming in? Is it coming on both sides or one side's stronger? The side's stronger. It's on both sides.

• 1:05:11Speaker 17

  Okay, and when it first came in, was it small? And now is it getting bigger?

• 1:05:16Speaker 08

  They're trying to... This one's bigger than this one, but they've stayed the same size.

• 1:05:20Speaker 17

  Okay, good. Now, our job then, that's like we say, that's a muscle. So our job is to strengthen that and to make it bigger. And then before you know it, you're gonna be like seeing way up here and seeing down here. You're gonna be seeing all around you. So you can start walking and doing stuff like that. So right now, it's a small window, but it's open.

• 1:05:40Ky Dickens?

  It was remarkable to watch. And my podcast team was there as it unfolded. They immediately questioned whether small leaks of light around the mask might be able to explain how my kids were interpreting colors. That is a fair concern. But even if that could be explained away by light, it doesn't account for what happened at the end of their sessions when they were identifying words and numbers, letters and pictures, all with a blindfold on. Anne, who's an incredible teacher, offered to keep working with my kids once a week over Zoom. They can both now read through a blindfold.

• 1:06:09Speaker 08

  How about this?

• 1:06:10Speaker 13

  A scientist with glasses and two spooks of hair.

• 1:06:15Ky Dickens?

  And one of the most convincing moments to me was when my son was reading Uno cards that Anne was holding up over Zoom. Anne's image was pinned large in my screen, so the image of the Uno cards were taking up the entire laptop screen. And my son was naming each one accurately and quickly.

• 1:06:28Speaker 08

  Let's try this one.

• 1:06:30Speaker 13

  A three yellow.

• 1:06:32Speaker 08

  OK, how about this one?

• 1:06:33Speaker 13

  Six red.

• 1:06:36Ky Dickens?

  He was nailing the Uno cards and weirdly not even looking in the direction of the screen.

• 1:06:41Speaker 13

  Four green. Why did you do it backwards?

• 1:06:46Speaker 08

  He goes upside down.

• 1:06:48Ky Dickens?

  And then my daughter accidentally touched the keyboard, and Anne's Zoom window became super tiny at the top. Neither my daughter or I could see the Zoom card she was holding up, which was one blue.

• 1:06:57Speaker 13

  One blue.

• 1:06:59Speaker 08

  There's nothing... Oh, it is a one blue. Do you know what was so weird about that, Anne? Harlow changed the thing, and you became tiny in the screen.

• 1:07:05Speaker 13

  One.

• 1:07:06Ky Dickens?

  And when we asked him how it looked in that tiny window, he said the Uno card looked as big as all the others.

• 1:07:11Speaker 08

  This is really amazing. OK, I'm going to give you a hard one.

• 1:07:15Speaker 13

  Plus two blue.

• 1:07:18Speaker 08

  I think I got you on this one.

• 1:07:20Speaker 13

  A little green.

• 1:07:21Speaker 08

  So you're not even looking at the screen.

• 1:07:23Ky Dickens?

  It was dumbfounding. And now he can read books while blindfolded that Anne shows him over Zoom. And watching my kids do this made me really excited about the possibilities for all of us. But when we were wrapping up this episode, the only question still nagging at me was why this was a phenomenon just for the young? Or could older brains learn it too? And then, within days of wrapping this episode, I received an email from Stephen May in the UK, who had just tried Mindsight with his father, John.

• 1:07:49Speaker 19

  Hello, my name is John May, and I was born in 1940.

• 1:07:55Ky Dickens?

  Nice.

• 1:07:56Speaker 19

  So that makes me almost 86.

• 1:08:00Ky Dickens?

  Steven, how did you come across Mindsight? And how did you explain it to your dad?

• 1:08:04Speaker 20

  I'd first seen Mindsight on a YouTube video. I'd heard that this sort of thing was possible with young people, but I didn't think it'd be possible with older people. So I pitched it to my dad, who was the most skeptical person I know of.

• 1:08:16Ky Dickens?

  What were you thinking, John?

• 1:08:17Speaker 19

  I didn't think it was actually possible. I was a skeptic. I thought to myself, it's one of his fads.

• 1:08:25Ky Dickens?

  So they're on a road trip in Scotland, get to a hotel, and John asks his dad to lay down on the bed.

• 1:08:30Speaker 20

  And bear in mind, he's lying on a twin bed in a hotel room at this point. And I said, I want you to put on a blindfold.

• 1:08:36Ky Dickens?

  And here's his dad, John, again.

• 1:08:37Speaker 19

  He gave me this mask, which was like a blindfold, really. But you couldn't see a thing. It didn't touch your eyes at all.

• 1:08:46Ky Dickens?

  And here's Steven.

• 1:08:47Speaker 20

  And I said, I'm going to give you two objects, and I want you to tell me which one you think is different. They were teabag packets from a hotel room. Because I didn't prep what I was going to do. I just kind of hoped that I'd be able to do something. One was yellow, one was blue. So I hand them to him.

• 1:09:05Ky Dickens?

  And here's his dad.

• 1:09:06Speaker 19

  So one was dark and one was light. I knew that the one in my right hand was either darker or it was lighter. And I didn't know how I was doing because I couldn't see a thing. There was about 15 things, I think, that he gave me that were all different. He said to me, Dad, you got them all right. You got them all right.

• 1:09:32Speaker 19

  But I couldn't see a thing. All I could see was total blackness. And I could feel these things in my hand. And I was saying, well, this one's darker than this one.

• 1:09:48Ky Dickens?

  And here's the son, Steven, again.

• 1:09:49Speaker 20

  I recorded the whole thing because my cynicism and my skepticism was that my dad would probably ask me at the end of it, well, were you lying, Steven, or were you telling the truth? So what was amazing, when we got to the end, and I looked at the likelihood of getting a two-question, two options right in a single question, 15 times out of 15, the odds were 32,768 to 1.

• 1:10:19Speaker 20

  When I sat back and said, right, now talk to me about each one of the selections. My dad said that he could see them.

• 1:10:26Speaker 19

  Yeah, I think I could see them, although I couldn't physically see them. I saw them somehow in my brain.

• 1:10:34Ky Dickens?

  And so, John, what do you think was happening? Like, how that's possible now that, you know, you've done it with your skepticism?

• 1:10:40Speaker 19

  Well, I really don't know. Whether it's a sick sense you have.

• 1:10:48Speaker 19

  It was absolutely amazing to think that I could tell the difference, even in the dark.

• 1:10:54Speaker 20

  And if people can wrap their head around that, there's almost no training to do. This is mind blowing when you realize that you don't have to be a particular age to do it. It's like, there's no skill involved. It's just put yourself in a play state, be open minded, lose your ego and sense what you can't see.

• 1:11:14Ky Dickens?

  There's more serious scientific work underway right now to understand what might be happening with Mindsight. And inside Anne's Mind C community, there's a real urgency, a belief that this training could help people connect more deeply with themselves. And maybe even help people who are blind navigate the world in new ways. And this all seems like just the beginning. The deeper people go into the training, the more they report other capacities awakening, abilities they believe may have been dormant all along.

• 1:11:38Speaker 08

  You saw telepathic abilities opening up?

• 1:11:40Speaker 17

  Opening up, yeah, across the board. And it's not immediate. It's the telepathic ability that kind of comes down the road. So you kind of open up these windows. And I think what you do is you give the kiddos the confidence that, okay, I'm receiving something else. I can then interpret that and then I can take that in and make decisions with that.

• 1:12:01Ky Dickens?

  Here's Mala again, speaking to what she believes intuition is.

• 1:12:04Speaker 10

  Perhaps the most common explanation that I can think of is I get a thought and it comes true later. You know, perhaps call it precon, right? But you are aware of something that's going to happen and it happens in the way that you got the thought. And if it doesn't happen, by definition, it's not intuition. It's just a thought. My understanding is it comes from the very being that we are, the consciousness that we are in, the big mind, the divinity within us, anything that you would like to call. We are all connected. And that connection is where this happens. And if I am connected to every particle around.

• 1:12:47Speaker 10

  And that gives me the ability to download the knowledge in that. And that which is special in each one of us is the consciousness, whatever you call it, the big mind. Now intuition comes from that space of calmness when I can connect with it. And when I connect with it, it potentially knows everything. You can download anything and everything that is required in that moment.

• 1:13:13Speaker 17

  I think this is just like you said, like the tip of the iceberg. Like, okay, we close our eyes, we receive information. We don't know how or where it's coming from. But we're receiving so much more information. And the amazing part is we can't measure it yet. We don't know what the signal is. We don't know how the signal is being carried across through which dimension. But it's happening. And so it's indisputable when you see this hundreds of times.

• 1:13:42Ky Dickens?

  Anne, like so many others, suggests that this is not simply about seeing without your eyes. It's about opening another channel of perception, one that may allow us to achieve new heights in human potential, even if we don't yet have the tools to measure how.

• 1:13:56Speaker 17

  So it's important to say that I think that this is is more than just a party trick. Because we've talked to kiddos who've been doing this for over a decade. And they say that the effects go beyond sight. You know, they talk about intuition sharpening. They walk into a room and this have this sense, whether it's they they pick up on others' intentions. They recall information almost effortlessly. And and some of these average kiddos even begin to display telepathic like skills. And so these are all abilities I wish for the next generation. If neurotypicals like ourselves, just average people can experience firsthand that there's more than me, see I.

• 1:14:41Speaker 17

  It just may create an awareness that there's more than the individual. We are all connected. And if we live our lives that way, would we treat each other better? Knowing it actually affects us because we are all connected. So.

• 1:15:02Speaker 17

  I think for me, it's not about having the answers. It's more about asking the questions. What else lays dormant within the average person, waiting to be awakened?

• 1:15:11Ky Dickens?

  When I step back and look at the journey we've been on together, it feels like a single question wearing many different costumes. We began with stories of non-speakers who were able to read thoughts, and then we moved into near-death experiences, energy healing, telepathy with plants and animals, and even non-local communication with those whose brains and bodies are slipping away with dementia. And now we ended with something that, on the surface, looks like a magic trick. Children and adults seeing the world around them without using their eyes. And if you look at any of these stories in isolation, it's easy to write them off. But taken together, across cultures and ages and belief systems, a pattern starts to show itself. Again and again, people are bumping into evidence that some part of us can perceive, connect, and know in ways that do not seem limited

• 1:15:55Ky Dickens?

  to the five senses or even to the physical brain. And none of this is tidy science yet. So many of these stories are anecdotal and live in hospital rooms and family kitchens, and that will be true before it lives in randomized control trials. But that's how so many things begin. Everything is hearsay until it isn't. First, we have the lived experience, and only later do we build the language and tools to measure it. What feels most important for me to say at the end of this season is that this is not just about a handful of extraordinary people doing extraordinary things. Over and over, the people we've met are telling us that these are human capacities, not rare superpowers. They may be louder in some of us and quieter in others, but they belong to all of us. And so if the brain is not only a producer of consciousness, but also a filter,

• 1:16:37Ky Dickens?

  then we've barely begun to understand what it's filtering out. And we're not done. In January, we'll start releasing talk tracks every single week. And in spring, we'll begin filming many of our conversations live in our studio, especially interviews with non-speakers who are so eager to share who they are, what they experience, and answer the questions you've been sending to us on Supercast. And then in season three, out next fall, we'll turn to an even deeper frontier, the question of what happens to consciousness when we leave this life? And what may await us on the other side of it? We'll meet children who speak of places they've never been, families they've never met, and memories that do not seem to belong to this lifetime. And we'll try to understand what those stories might be telling us. Because if even a fraction of what you've heard this season is real,

• 1:17:21Ky Dickens?

  then the story isn't just that consciousness survives or that the mind can meet at a distance. The real story is that we are more than we were taught to be. And some deep, ancient part of us already knows how to remember that.

• 1:17:44Ky Dickens?

  Thank you so much for joining us this season. And we'll be back with new episodes of The Talk Tracks, starting with an amazing near-death experience story. To dive in deeper, subscribe to our Backstage Pass by visiting our website. With it, you'll unlock access to bonus content like telepathy tests, Ask Me Anything interviews with myself and guests. You'll be able to enjoy the podcast ad-free, connect with other members on our Telepathy Tribe Discord, and hear and see exclusive content from the Telepathy Tapes Vault. Visit our website at thetelepathytapes.com for more info on how to subscribe to our Backstage Pass. It takes a village to make this podcast. And I want to thank our producers, Jesse Steed, Jill Pachesnik, and Catherine Ellis. A special thanks to our contributing producer, Anne Desolar. Original music is by Rachel Cantu.

• 1:18:27Ky Dickens?

  Mix, mastering, and additional music is by Michael Urbino. Our associate producer is Selena Kennedy. Original artwork is by Ben Kandora Design. And I'm Kai Dickens, your executive producer, writer, and host.