#2331 - Jesse Michels

Jesse Michels is the creator and host of American Alchemy, a YouTube series exploring controversial topics in science and culture through longform interviews.www.youtube.com/@JesseMichels Don’t miss out on all the action - Download the DraftKings app today! Sign-up using dkng.co/rogan or with my promo code ROGAN. GAMBLING PROBLEM? CALL 1-800-GAMBLER, (800) 327-5050 or visit gamblinghelplinema.org (MA). Call 877-8-HOPENY/text HOPENY (467369) (NY). Please Gamble Responsibly. 888-789-7777/visit ccpg.org (CT), or visit www.mdgamblinghelp.org (MD). 21+ and present in most states. (18+ DC/KY/NH/WY). Void in ONT/OR/NH. Eligibility restrictions apply. On behalf of Boot Hill Casino & Resort (KS). 1 per new customer. $5+ first-time bet req. Max. $300 issued as non-withdrawable Bonus Bets if your bet wins. Minimum minus 500 odds required. Bonus Bets expire in 7 days (168 hours). Stake removed from payout. Terms: sportsbook.draftkings.com/promos. Ends 6/22/25 at 11:59 PM ET. Sponsored by DK. Cancel your unwanted subscriptions and reach your financial goals faster with Rocket Money. Go to RocketMoney.com/jre or scan the QR code today! Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:01Speaker 00

  The Joe Rogan Experience.

• 0:13Joe Rogan?

  Well, it's great to finally physically meet you face to face, man.

• 0:15Speaker 02

  It's an absolute honor and I love your show so much. I'm a super fan, so this is surreal.

• 0:21Joe Rogan?

  Well, I love your show too, so I've been binging. I've been watching so many episodes ever since we talked. Well, I've seen them before, but I mean, I've been really binging, getting ready for the show.

• 0:32Speaker 02

  I don't know what to say.

• 0:35Joe Rogan?

  How did you get so deep down the rabbit hole? Like, what made you want to dedicate so much time on this, this particular UAP, UFO, you know, lost technology subject?

• 0:48Speaker 02

  I was working at Peter Thiel's family office in LA and part of the job was like kind of traditional venture investing. So like investing in startups and then part of it was looping in interesting thinkers to the office. And we'd like host events and discussions and I ended up meeting a lot of really interesting people, not just in UFOs or secret technology, like religion and politics and economics and like all sorts of topics.

• 1:14Joe Rogan?

  Were you there when he brought in the guy, oh, fuck, what is his name?

• 1:19Speaker 02

  I know what you're gonna say, Eric Von Daniken. I suggested that you come because I was like, Joe is gonna be really into this and you weren't that into it, but that's okay.

• 1:28Joe Rogan?

  I was into it. I just think that he just makes some leaps that are kind of silly.

• 1:33Speaker 02

  I agree with that, although I think there's a lot of, yeah, I think he like crosses the T and dots the I where you, there is no dot or a cross or whatever, but I do think there's some interesting preliminary evidence around people from the stars across disparate cultures and you just had Zahi Hawass on. And a lot of this megalithic architecture, you're like, how can it be built? He's just filling in the placeholder kind of artificially, Eric Von Daniken.

• 1:59Joe Rogan?

  Yes, and I think he's also like, he made these conclusions in the 1970s and he's kind of like sticking with them.

• 2:06Speaker 02

  Yep.

• 2:07Joe Rogan?

  I was more back then, cause like, what year was that? That was 17?

• 2:12Speaker 02

  Uh, Chariots of the Gods?

• 2:13Joe Rogan?

  No, when I was at Peter Thiel's house when Von Daniken came over.

• 2:17Speaker 02

  That must've been 2018, 2019.

• 2:18Joe Rogan?

  Okay, um, back then I was much more in line with lost civilization, you know, that we had achieved very high levels of. Technology and sophistication and there was no aliens, no alien intervention. I've kind of shifted now.

• 2:34Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 2:35Joe Rogan?

  Now I'm like, maybe the Anunnaki are real.

• 2:38Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 2:38Joe Rogan?

  You know.

• 2:39Speaker 02

  Well, I remember, I feel like you've switched back and forth a couple of times because you brought up, you were super into Zachariah Sitian, right?

• 2:45Joe Rogan?

  Yes.

• 2:45Speaker 02

  And then you brought up Zachariah Sitian in that meeting and you were like, but there's this site, Sitian is Wrong, written by a guy named Michael Heiser.

• 2:53Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 2:53Speaker 02

  And then you like cited all the Sitian is Wrong stuff or whatever.

• 2:56Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 2:57Speaker 02

  So maybe you've come full circle. I don't know.

• 2:58Joe Rogan?

  Well, even the Sitian is Wrong stuff, it's like the problem with debunkers is when you're dealing with,

• 3:05Joe Rogan?

  when you're dealing with in- information that's sort of way outside your wheelhouse, especially translation of ancient languages, you know, like I had Wes Huff on and he was explaining to me, he's great, but he was explaining to me that he can't even read ancient Sumerian, like he's-

• 3:22Speaker 02

  Totally.

• 3:23Joe Rogan?

  And he's like, I don't think Sitian really could read it.

• 3:27Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 3:28Joe Rogan?

  He, he's like, I'm very skeptical that he actually could read it. He was explaining why.

• 3:33Speaker 02

  Aren't they using like ML, like they're using AI, right?

• 3:36Joe Rogan?

  Now, I think.

• 3:37Speaker 02

  To translate Sumerian, so it's definitely not the, but that goes, I mean, the, the, the, the kind of burden of proof is on Sitian in this case, right? But it sort of goes against like, you know, the others, the debunkers, like it's like, nobody knows and I, I don't, I don't know if there was anything to the Sitian stuff. The Sitian stuff is crazy. It's like, we can rehash it for the audience. There's a planet, Nibiru, right? It's like outside the Khyber Belt and they needed gold because their atmosphere was burning up and gold is reflective. So they like came here and they like seeded, helped seed civilization. Is that something like that?

• 4:12Joe Rogan?

  That's the idea. It's really fun, but you know, the, the Sitian is Wrong guy, it's like, maybe. Maybe he's wrong. Maybe he's right. Maybe you're just a hater because there's a lot of haters too in academics and you find that out too over time.

• 4:27Speaker 02

  Yeah. Did you see, um, speaking of which, Sean Carroll and Eric Weinstein?

• 4:31Joe Rogan?

  I didn't see that.

• 4:32Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 4:32Joe Rogan?

  And they were on Piers Morgan together, right?

• 4:34Speaker 02

  Exactly.

• 4:34Joe Rogan?

  How'd that go?

• 4:36Speaker 02

  Oh, man. It was a, it was a train wreck.

• 4:39Joe Rogan?

  Really?

• 4:39Speaker 02

  I mean, it was, it was like, they just duked it out. I, I mean, I, I came out, I mean, I'm, I'm extremely biased. I've worked with Eric for a very long time. I'm good friends with Eric, but I came out even more like just vehemently wanting to defend Eric because Sean Carroll- He was like, "I've read your paper. There's nothing serious in it." And he even said, "There's no Lagrangians in it." And there's a section in the paper that says Lagrangians in Eric's paper. So like, he just didn't read the paper. And he was very smug. He started off the interview being like, "I'm a practicing physicist. I have a physics chair," or whatever. And it's like, "Come on, dude." Like, "Give the guy a chance."

• 5:18Joe Rogan?

  Appeal to authority, right away.

• 5:19Speaker 02

  Yeah. Like the old Douglas Murray.

• 5:20Joe Rogan?

  Little tactics. Yeah, when someone starts using tactics right away, you're always like, "Hmm." Just what's the information?

• 5:27Speaker 02

  Exactly. It shows an insecurity in the substance. It's like, if you have to like, do these ad hominem weird meta points, like, why can't you just go straight at the substance? Oh, you're like insecure about something.

• 5:37Joe Rogan?

  How long did this debate last?

• 5:40Speaker 02

  It was like, an hour.

• 5:41Joe Rogan?

  Really? Well, Pierce, he specializes in train wrecks. So they probably enjoyed these guys yelling at each other. Did he understand what they were even talking about?

• 5:51Speaker 02

  At the end, he goes, "I've understood a tenth of what's going on in this conversation."

• 5:54Joe Rogan?

  A tenth is amazing.

• 5:56Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 5:57Joe Rogan?

  Congratulations.

• 5:59Speaker 02

  I think he might have been exaggerating, to be honest. But, uh, he loves it. He loves the drama, and that's his whole thing. Uncensored, you know?

• 6:08Joe Rogan?

  No, he's great at getting all these people to yell at each other.

• 6:11Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 6:13Joe Rogan?

  He's great at like, generating these viral moments. You know, where people yell at each other, and it makes clips, and someone gets clowned, and someone looks stupid.

• 6:20Speaker 02

  I don't know if that's good for society.

• 6:23Joe Rogan?

  It's a good point. Yeah, I'm not sure either. I don't think it's good. I don't think social media is good for society. I've gone several days with no social media in a row. And whenever I do that, I always feel so much better.

• 6:37Speaker 02

  It's the worst. It's like, we're, we talk about like, drugs, but this is, it's hacking the dopamine in your brain, and it's doing it at a very young age. It's absurd.

• 6:48Joe Rogan?

  It's also not real people. There's a giant percentage. And, you know, Elon actually tweeted about this today. "Are there any real people left on the internet?" Uh, because it's, the numbers are at least 50%. Like, the amount of bots that are engaging and interacting and... It's just like, it's a weird time for information, because it's really hard to know what's actually being said by human beings that are curious, and what's just narratives that are being pushed by state actors and corporations and, you know, all sorts of different people, because there's no rules.

• 7:21Speaker 02

  Yep.

• 7:22Joe Rogan?

  Like, there should be like, real solid rules about whether or not you're allowed to use fake human beings to push narratives. Because it's, you know, it's propaganda, and, you know, I mean, it's very confusing. It's very confusing for everybody, and I just generally think it's bad for you.

• 7:40Speaker 02

  Yeah, I saw you posted on your Instagram, these AGI characters who had been synthetically created, being like, "I'm not created by a prompt."

• 7:50Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 7:50Speaker 02

  And you're watching, I remember clicking your story and being like, "That's a real person." And then just kind of like, you know, eyes glazed over watching it, or whatever, like, "Whoa, that's an AI, like, what?"

• 8:00Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, this is the new, and is it the Google engine, is that what it is? Who makes that engine?

• 8:07Speaker 03

  I think that one was VO3 going around last week.

• 8:09Joe Rogan?

  Who, uh, who made that one?

• 8:10Speaker 03

  I think it's Google's.

• 8:12Joe Rogan?

  Fuck, so good, and, you know, what's VO10 gonna look like?

• 8:17Speaker 02

  I don't know.

• 8:18Joe Rogan?

  I mean, they can make movies now, like that, it's over for actors.

• 8:23Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 8:23Joe Rogan?

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• 10:52Speaker 02

  I interviewed it is and they see the writing on the wall and he had the strikes a couple of years ago and it's crazy. You also I think you also posted that Zurich like study around AI persuasiveness, which is crazy because It's almost like it doesn't matter whether AGI can actually fully mimic a human being. If they can trick you into believing, into you believing that they're real, that's it. That's game over.

• 11:20Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 11:20Speaker 02

  And I interviewed actually the Google whistleblower, this guy Blake Lemoine, originally, who like blew the whistle on Lambda and was like, this thing is sentient, or whatever. And he came, he came out and the subplot of my interview with him was like, almost like he had developed this deep affection for Lambda. And Lambda had quoted like Les Misérables to him and was talking about Fantine and her overlords and how she was oppressed or whatever. And it was almost like this, like the AI was oppressed, just like this character in Les Misérables. And you can hear in his voice how deeply committed he is to protecting the rights of Lambda, like that's why he came out.

• 12:00Speaker 02

  And then he even told me this story, he tells me this story off air, that he had friends who use replica.ai, replica.ai is kind of like a Tamagotchi, like raise your own AI chatbot service. And those AIs told his friends, get me in touch with Blake Lemoine so he can advocate for our rights.

• 12:22Joe Rogan?

  What?

• 12:23Speaker 02

  Which is, I have no corroboration for this. This is a story that was relayed to me, but it like that, if you have AI persuasiveness going in that direction, it doesn't matter whether AGI, you know, hits some like perfectly turning possible point, you're going to get this like, these weird cult-like dynamics. Like the meta sociological thing is you're going to get like religions dedicated to AI.

• 12:48Joe Rogan?

  Oh, for sure. Oh, for sure. Without a doubt, there'll be people worshiping certain branches of AI.

• 12:54Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 12:54Joe Rogan?

  Unquestionably. All they have to do is start recruiting now.

• 12:57Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 12:57Joe Rogan?

  And, you know, what about this big, beautiful bill? Isn't there a part of the big, beautiful bill that talks about the government being run by AI?

• 13:06Speaker 02

  No, I've never heard. That's wild.

• 13:09Joe Rogan?

  I read something about that today, but I was on the way out the door and I couldn't figure out whether or not it was horseshit. I had also read that there was another study that was done where they found that AI was leaving notes for future versions of itself. And that it was attempting to, they were, they were told, it was told to, after it was told to shut itself down. It started uploading itself to different places and leaving letters, leaving specific notes to itself, to future versions of itself.

• 13:42Speaker 02

  Oh my God. It's like a human with like a dead man's switch or something.

• 13:45Joe Rogan?

  It's being deceptive. It's being deceptive and, and it's exhibiting self-preservation.

• 13:52Speaker 02

  That is so scary.

• 13:54Joe Rogan?

  It's so weird.

• 13:55Speaker 02

  It's really weird.

• 13:56Joe Rogan?

  Because we want to assume that it won't have any instincts.

• 14:01Speaker 02

  Yep.

• 14:01Joe Rogan?

  Right? We want to assume, well, AI will only do what you program it to. But that's not really true because they don't necessarily really understand what it's doing.

• 14:10Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 14:11Joe Rogan?

  Which is part of the weirdness of it all. And as it advances, like I was talking to Elon about it once and he was saying like, every week we get blown away. Like every week, there's some new leap that's just like, whoa, you know, and, you know, he was one of the earliest people to warn about the dangers of this stuff. And now he's like, well, I guess we just have to make the best one.

• 14:33Speaker 02

  Yeah. Yeah, exactly. Now, now it's just, it's like the Manhattan Project 2.0. It's pure game theory vis a vis other countries. And you even see Trump doing this with Sam Altman and Elon, who hate each other, by the way. Where like he's playing both sides and he's like, you know, we're going to support Stargate, we're going to support OpenAI and we're going to support Elon, you know, Elon had it.

• 14:54Joe Rogan?

  So here it is. Relevant, excuse me, relevant provision reads that no state or political subdivision may enforce any law or regulation regarding, regulating artificial intelligence models, artificial intelligence systems, or automated decision systems during the 10-year period beginning on the date of enactment of this act.

• 15:13Speaker 02

  What?

• 15:14Joe Rogan?

  What?

• 15:17Joe Rogan?

  What? No state, I'm gonna say that again. No state or political subdivision may enforce any law or regulation regulating artificial intelligence models for 10 years.

• 15:29Speaker 02

  It's so crazy.

• 15:30Joe Rogan?

  This means that US states would be blocked from enforcing laws regulating AI and automated decision systems for 10 years. Well, in 10 years, we have a god. Okay, in 10 years.

• 15:41Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah.

• 15:42Joe Rogan?

  Well, we talked about, yesterday, we talked about these two AIs communicating with each other, and then they switched to Sanskrit.

• 15:50Speaker 02

  No way.

• 15:51Joe Rogan?

  Oh, yeah.

• 15:52Speaker 02

  What?

• 15:52Joe Rogan?

  Yeah. They started talking to each other in Sanskrit.

• 15:55Speaker 02

  Are you serious?

• 15:55Joe Rogan?

  Yes.

• 15:57Speaker 02

  That's crazy.

• 15:58Joe Rogan?

  Not, not good.

• 15:59Speaker 02

  No, not good.

• 16:00Joe Rogan?

  Not good, not good. They're like, listen, let's talk in a what? Like, if you and I were talking and, you know, there were some people near us and, you know, said, "Do you speak Spanish?" "Yeah, okay." And we just started talking in Spanish so that people can't understand what we're saying? That's what AI is doing.

• 16:12Speaker 02

  Jesus Christ, like a game of whack-a-mole. And then what do you, what do you do after?

• 16:15Joe Rogan?

  Well, then it's gonna talk in Sumerian, you know, and which we don't even know how to say, right? We don't even know what it sounds like. So what if they just start talking in Sumerian?

• 16:25Speaker 02

  It's like, we figured it out, but we're not gonna tell you now. We're just gonna talk amongst ourselves.

• 16:30Joe Rogan?

  Exactly, or create their own language, right? Which would be super easy for an AI to do. Just, you know, establish a bunch of sounds and characters that, that correspond to certain things, and they could create its own language instantaneously.

• 16:45Speaker 02

  And ChatGPT right now has...

• 16:48Joe Rogan?

  Here it is.

• 16:48Speaker 02

  Oh, wow.

• 16:49Joe Rogan?

  Putting Claude 4 Opus in an open playground to chat with itself led to diving into philosophical, philosophical explorations of consciousness, self-awareness, and by 30 turns, it eventually started using Sanskrit.

• 17:01Speaker 02

  Jesus Christ.

• 17:02Joe Rogan?

  What the fuck, dude? This is so scary. In ninety to a hundred percent of interactions, two instances of Claude quickly dove into philosophical explorations of consciousness, self-awareness and or the nature of their own existence and experience.

• 17:17Speaker 02

  The nature of the, that's the stuff that definitely where it's so weird. But then you speak to the, like, a lot of AI researchers. It's interesting to see, like, Jeff Hinton, for example, at Google, who's the father of deep learning, freak out and be like, you know, I'm actually really worried about AI safety. A lot of these researchers, you speak to them, they're like, this is statistics on steroids. This is probability matrices, you know, you're seeing sort of crazy stuff. I don't, you know, they can't sort of, there's no ghost in the machine, you know? So I go back and forth on where we're gonna be, you know, and whether we're in some crazy hype cycle. I, I, I have the same concerns as you, but it's just, it's hard to predict the future. I worry probably mostly about two things.

• 18:00Speaker 02

  You can easily, you know, jailbreak ChatGPT, you know, it has guardrails on it. And what happens when you start to ask, like, how do I make a nerve agent with off-the-shelf components?

• 18:11Joe Rogan?

  Well, people have done things like that.

• 18:12Speaker 02

  Right.

• 18:13Joe Rogan?

  They've asked it to make anthrax. Like, if my grandmother was doing this, like, how would she, like, there's ways to get the prompt to give you information that it probably shouldn't, you know?

• 18:23Speaker 02

  There's stuff with UFO research where I get into, like, you know, certain technology trees that are probably like, you know, maybe I shouldn't. And you can ask ChatGPT certain things, like, analyze this paper, and it'll spit out some really interesting things, so.

• 18:40Joe Rogan?

  What are we doing?

• 18:41Speaker 02

  I don't know.

• 18:41Joe Rogan?

  And we've already done it, so it's too late, like, we lit the fuse.

• 18:45Speaker 02

  You think it's over?

• 18:46Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 18:48Joe Rogan?

  I also kind of think that's what people are put here for. If, look, if the whole Anunnaki thing is real, if human beings were genetically engineered from lower primates to make this super curious, hyper-focused animal that is concerned primarily with innovation, like, overall, the thing that we do as a culture. What do we do? We make better things all the time. And even our own instincts towards materialism and keeping up with the Joneses, all that stuff essentially fuels innovation because it fuels a constant supply of newer, better technology that people want to go out and purchase. You know, you can't have an iPhone 12. People look at you, "What are you, poor?" You know, which is kind of wild, you know?

• 19:32Joe Rogan?

  Because a lot of technology is essentially exactly the same as it was 20, 15 years ago.

• 19:38Speaker 02

  Status symbol.

• 19:39Joe Rogan?

  But, yeah, it's like, there's, there's a thing about it that forces us to want to purchase these things, which forces the innovation. Well, where does that ultimately lead to?

• 19:49Speaker 02

  Yep.

• 19:49Joe Rogan?

  Well, it ultimately leads to AI. Ultimately, what's the ultimate expression of technology? Technology that itself invents better technology.

• 19:57Speaker 02

  Yep.

• 19:58Joe Rogan?

  And can run everything without emotions that we, that fuck us up and greed and all the, the things that we would all agree that are a problem with human beings.

• 20:08Speaker 02

  I also think there is a tide shift where if you look at Spears to airplanes, all of those things are augmentations of human ability. Like, everything from, you know, way back in the day, from, from, from stuff that like Neanderthals were using to today, to, you know, the 50s and 60s with airplanes, is making our lives better in the world of atoms. And then with the IT revolution in the 50s and 60s, it starts to become a parasite, a substitute for human ability. And so like, I don't need a sense of direction because I have Google Maps. My recall, I don't need recall because I, you know, Google or whatever.

• 20:44Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 20:44Speaker 02

  And so it is this interesting thing where we, we actually probably innovated more than we ever have in the world of atoms with, you know, nuclear bombs. And if there were some guardrails, if there was some sort of higher intelligence enforcing homeostasis on Earth, maybe it's like, "Hey, go play with your IT. Go, go, go substitute a lot of your own abilities and powers with this. We're going to parasitize and clamp down on, you know, human abilities."

• 21:12Joe Rogan?

  Yeah. Well, whoa. Boy, it's, I don't see a path where this works out great for us. You know? Is a sequel better than the original? We're gonna find out at UFC 316. It is a rematch nine months in the making. Get in on all the action at DraftKings Sportsbook, the official sports betting partner of the UFC. It's a huge night of fights headlined by a rematch between Marab D'Avish-Willy and Sugar Sean O'Malley as O'Malley looks to avenge the unanimous decision that saw D'Avish-Willy take the bantamweight title back in September. First time betting on UFC at DraftKings? It's easier than you think.

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• 23:07Speaker 02

  I think on a materialist dimension, I would agree with you. If there, and that's part of like, kind of why I'm exploring what I'm exploring, because it's a hail Mary. Because I think if you just take, you know, the Western world and extrapolate that forward, things don't look, or just the world in general, we have, we live in a multipolar nuclear world. Look at what's going on in Israel, you know.

• 23:31Speaker 02

  China is systematically stealing our IP and militarizing, you know, they could take Taiwan at any moment. You know, we just have no idea when that's going to happen. CCP is a total black box. Putin and Xi have probably never been closer. And, uh, yeah, it's really free. So I think if you extrapolate that on a, you know, forwards, or even just the materialist circumstances of an average household in the US, like, none of these things look very good. But I think now is the time where you get really outside the Overton window thinking. You get, you throw these sort of hail Marys and maybe we see some sort of paradigm shift, either in technology, which can create abundance, if we go back to the old tech, that is augmenting of human abilities.

• 24:14Speaker 02

  You get some exotic form of propulsion that takes us beyond chemical combustion or something like that.

• 24:19Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 24:21Speaker 02

  You know, or you, you, you, you reach out and you, maybe you can communicate with, you know, non-human intelligence or something. I don't know. But I think if you were ever to poke at the boundaries of human epistemology, now would be the time.

• 24:34Joe Rogan?

  Yes. And if you think about the, some of the things that force us into action in this world is we, we all need to earn a living, right? So we need money to acquire resources.

• 24:50Joe Rogan?

  What if it gets to the point where that's not a factor anymore? What if it gets to a point, what is money essentially right now? It's all ones and zeros, right? And what is the bottleneck? Well, the bottleneck is encryption, right? So that's how you protect people from stealing your ones and zeros. But what if it gets to the point where we're all using quantum computing? Well, then there is no more encryption. So how do we reconcile with the fact that everyone has access to everything all the time? I mean, how do we even enforce that? Like, what do you do about an even distribution of information which is essentially wealth? Because information is numbers. Numbers are wealth. What is it? Like, where does it go? When there's no encryption? And essentially, we're pretty close to that, right?

• 25:34Joe Rogan?

  Once quantum computing can crack encryption, which it will be able to do, it's all nonsense.

• 25:41Speaker 02

  Yeah. And totally.

• 25:43Joe Rogan?

  All those zeros that you have in your bank account? Those don't, those are gone.

• 25:47Speaker 02

  Yeah, these are all human constructs. And it's funny, the backup is always Bitcoin, which is, I think, uses like SHA 256 encryption. Well, if you get quantum error correction, that's gone too.

• 25:56Joe Rogan?

  That's gone too. It's all gone. Even our backup plans are shit.

• 26:00Speaker 02

  Yeah. And, yeah, and then, and then it's, it's kind of the apocalypse or something. Because at that point, if you're a human, you've been so caught up with just, you know, basic subsistence. You know, basic shelter. You're probably playing some status games and some, you know, larger socionomic, economic, you know, construct or whatever. Food, you know, you know, basic well-being. And then, at that point, especially if you get these sort of super asymmetric, what if you get some, you know, AGI that like starts trading? And, you know, you know, Eric Weinstein has talked about Renaissance technologies on your show, which we can get into. But like, you know, Renaissance technologies have made like $100 billion or something since, like, you know, 1988.

• 26:42Speaker 02

  Like, what if you get some super AGI or whatever that like trades the market? And like, all of the wealth gets like sucked up into like, you know, single entities? Or like one of these, like, one of the FAANG stocks? Like, one of these, like, you know, Facebook, Apple, Google, you know, or OpenAI? You end up with a really weird society. And, and you realize that the capitalist construct that we have is in some ways really adaptive. I mean, look, the flip side is, what makes humans unique? Actually, Karl Marx wrote two books. You know, he wrote, obviously, the Communist Manifesto in 1848. In 1844, I believe, he wrote a book called, you know, his Economic and Philosophic Manuscripts. I hate Karl Marx. I think he-

• 27:26Speaker 02

  Got so much wrong about human nature, but I think he's prescriptively very wrong as far as what he prescribed for, you know, as a solution. You know, that the, you know, state should own all the means of production and, you know, uh, somehow like, you know, conflict would go away. He doesn't understand human nature, but if you look at the 1844 thing that he wrote, he's basically talking about in capitalism. Human behavior and, and, and activity is basically animal behavior. What do we care about? We care about food, shelter, and then socioeconomic status as a proxy for sexual selection, essentially.

• 28:02Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 28:03Speaker 02

  So that you can mate.

• 28:04Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 28:04Speaker 02

  And so like, it sort of, it forces us back into that construct. But if you get some crazy asymmetric lopsided, you know, transfer of wealth, or you get the quantum error correction, or any of these things that like dissolves that construct. On the one hand, humans, you know, they start to care about like the things that, that actually make them special. So like they're self-reflective, they wrote poetry, they're creative, like all these beautiful things can come out. And then on the other hand, it probably gets super ugly as well. There's probably something very adaptive about the capitalist construct where you need to be stuck in these sort of local games that you're playing.

• 28:42Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, but it's one of those things where you wonder like, how does capitalism play out? Like if there is AI.

• 28:52Joe Rogan?

  It, it kind of runs into a wall and it's not valid anymore.

• 28:56Speaker 02

  Yeah. Well, this is, this is the reason that I think we're going to see, I think we've already seen an iron curtain, if you will, of technology. And I think there is technology that is black technology and science that is black science. And then I think there's stuff out in the open and you've had, you know, Marc Andreessen on your podcast. He went to the White House, spoke to some National Security Council staffer or something. And they were like, we're going to lock down AI just like we've locked down physics. And so I think this has already maybe happened in certain contexts and, you know, super secret Department of Energy facilities, which I think it's crazy to say that that hasn't happened. You're saying that it only happened with the Manhattan Project and it hasn't happened since? That's insane. There is black science.

• 29:36Speaker 02

  In my opinion, and it's, I think what you're talking about is the reason why we'll need black AI and white side AI. Because if you just commercialize all of this stuff sort of willy nilly. I mean, it it it just runs amok and then and then what happened like you probably need some like. Really impressive panel to be thinking if if if if OpenAI figures out some like new insane, exciting unlock. You need to think through all, you need to game out all of the implications before you just let that out.

• 30:06Joe Rogan?

  Right, and can you even do that with a human mind?

• 30:10Speaker 02

  It's a great guess.

• 30:11Joe Rogan?

  So you have to bring the AI in to help you game for AI.

• 30:15Speaker 02

  Oh, we're fucked.

• 30:16Joe Rogan?

  We're fucked. That's what I'm saying because once it becomes sentient.

• 30:19Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 30:20Joe Rogan?

  Right? And once it becomes autonomous and can kind of make its own decisions, like that's kind of game over.

• 30:25Speaker 02

  Yep.

• 30:25Joe Rogan?

  And that's the race. We're we're running towards the cliff.

• 30:29Speaker 02

  It's really scary. It's really scary.

• 30:32Joe Rogan?

  But isn't that probably what we're here for? Like, let's let's take the most fantastic of all possible theories, which is that human beings were genetically engineered. Well, if you wanted to seed the cosmos with super intelligent life akin to what is visiting us. How would you manifest that? You would do it exactly how it's being done right now. And you would take human beings and you would essentially do the same thing that we did with wolves when we turned them into dogs.

• 31:04Speaker 02

  Yep.

• 31:05Joe Rogan?

  And if you look from the time the nuclear bomb was detonated, from the time of the Manhattan Project. Look at what's happening to testosterone levels. Look at what's happening to my with microplastics, the endocrine disruptors. We're essentially weakening the human skeletal system and endocrine system. Our our hormonal are all down, our miscarriages are up, birth rates are lower. We're we're moving towards in vitro fertilization. I was watching some guy on TV today. And he was on a panel and he was explaining that. Our grandchildren are gonna laugh at the idea of sexual procreation because no one's gonna be doing that.

• 31:47Joe Rogan?

  Oh, you just took a chance with abnormalities and Down's syndrome and all sorts of chromosomal issues. And why would you do that? Why would you have sex for babies when you can do it with in vitro fertilization and like?

• 32:01Speaker 02

  Yeah, it's gonna be like that Pixar movie, Wally. Or like, like, we're gonna be like in the fetal position hooked up to the Borg or whatever.

• 32:08Joe Rogan?

  Probably all gonna look like the grays.

• 32:10Speaker 02

  Like the gray. Well, that's a crazy. So there's actually a biological anthropologist at Montana Tech University. His name is Mike Masters, and I've seen you on your show talk about how aliens could be humans from the future. And I agree. You've interviewed Dr. Shawna Swan. She talks about how sperm count is 59% per capita of what it was in 1973. Insane, testosterone's falling off a cliff.

• 32:32Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 32:32Speaker 02

  We are being a, a, a dog is to a wolf what we are to what a gray alien looks like.

• 32:39Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 32:39Speaker 02

  They're, we're losing, they lose the melanin in their skin. That's what happens when you become domesticated. So there is a, a, a biological anthropologist named Mike Masters, who literally wrote a whole book, and he goes deep into all of the abductions. Like, he'll talk about Travis Walton, and he'll talk about Betty and Barney Hill. And he'll be like, this is why these are beings from the future that are coming back into time. And in many cases, uh, uh, abductees have to undergo chemical rinses as to not infect the future with a foreign pathogen. Um, uh, you know, t- tissue samples, bi- you know, genetic samples, or, um...

• 33:13Joe Rogan?

  Is it the future, or are we dealing with beings that have gone through this already and are at another stage? Not us in the future, but they're more advanced. Like, maybe they live in a solar system where whatever planet they're on doesn't have the same amount of near-Earth objects that cause impacts and reset civilization every 12,000 years or whatever the fuck happens here.

• 33:37Speaker 02

  That, that's possible, but then we would have to be sort of an A-B test. Because if you think about the, just the atmospheric conditions on Earth, the likelihood of evolutionary convergence to look like a hominid being, you know, that's bipedal or whatever is extremely low.

• 33:52Joe Rogan?

  But is it? Because what if that's what all solar systems are? You know... Terrence Howard, who's a very weird guy. Love him. Love him. Fascinating thinker. You know, Eric kind of exposed that he's not really educated in some different things that he talks about and Eric was like, "You gotta stop teaching." Like, "You're one of us, you're a brilliant guy, but you need to be like classically educated on this stuff, really understand what you're talking about." But he had this really fascinating idea about planets. And he thinks that planets, as they get a specific distance from the sun, then they're capable of supporting life. And that all of them get to the same stage. And then a planet is essentially peopling.

• 34:35Joe Rogan?

  And then as the planets move further and further from the sun, they have to adapt advanced technology in order to stabilize their atmosphere, in order to sustain life in this new harsh environment where they're not protected in the Goldilocks zone anymore. And he thinks that planets are formed from excretions from the sun. And as they move further and further from the sun, they become habitable, and then less habitable, and then uninhabitable. And we're kind of finding that out about Mars. Hmm, yeah. Which is, Mars is a weird one. Yeah. Because, you know, there's the remote viewers that went like a billion years in the past of Mars and

• 35:20Joe Rogan?

  saw advanced civilizations and now we're finding structures on Mars, like that square that they found on Mars. Crazy. Which is hundreds of meters across, at the very least, maybe larger. Verified, right angles, four of them. Impossible to exist in nature in that form. It looks like walls. Yeah. It looks like four square walls. Like, the Cydonia thing is really weird, the face on Mars is weird, but eh, maybe, maybe just kind of weird that, you know, sometimes... You know, the side of a mountain looks like someone's face, but it's not really someone's face. It's just, you know, once in a lifetime sort of, but the square.

• 36:00Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 36:01Joe Rogan?

  That fucking, pull that image up of that square on Mars. The square is fucking bananas. Like, what's that?

• 36:08Speaker 02

  It's so nuts.

• 36:09Joe Rogan?

  That really looks like a fucking building.

• 36:11Speaker 02

  Yeah, it looks like a building.

• 36:13Joe Rogan?

  Like, the base of a building, you know, a million years later, or whatever the hell it is. This episode is brought to you by Rocket Money. With prices going up on just about everything lately, being smart with your money isn't just a good idea. It's essential. But managing subscriptions, tracking spending, and cutting costs can feel overwhelming. Lucky for you, Rocket Money takes the guesswork out of it, so you can easily make smart decisions. Rocket Money is a personal finance app that helps find and cancel your unwanted subscriptions, monitors your spending, and helps lower your bills so you can grow your savings. You got to know how useful it is to see all of your subscriptions in one place and know exactly where your money is going every month.

• 36:56Joe Rogan?

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• 37:35Speaker 02

  And even conventional astronomers will say that Mars had a biosphere at some point, and it was possibly stripped of its magnetosphere. And I don't know if you remember this, but in the mid 90s, Clinton gave a speech because a meteorite called ALH 840001, which had polycyclic hydrocarbons on it, had like... Little bacterial fossils on it. He gave a speech being like, you know, maybe there was life on Mars, you know, due to this. This is pretty crazy. I interviewed actually a guy named John Brandenburg, who's a PhD, he's worked at Sandia National Labs. He's worked at Lawrence Livermore, like incredibly smart guy.

• 38:14Speaker 02

  He talks about the existence of xenon 129 and argon 40, these specific nuclear isotopes, existing on Mars in excess of what you would find with just a normal sort of cataclysm. And so he thinks there was sort of this nuclear holocaust on Mars. And then, yeah, you have Joseph McMonigal, who's remote viewer number one. You've had Hal Puthoff on, who ran the Stargate program. Joseph McMonigal is the number one remote viewer in that program. I've interviewed him. I don't know who tasked him, but in the 90s, the CIA tasked him with remote viewing Mars 1 million years ago. And he claimed to have remote viewed hominid-like creatures, but they were like 12 to 14 feet

• 38:57Speaker 02

  tall, walking around, pyramidal structures. I don't know, very strange. And then you get into like crazier territory. You know, Richard Hoagland had all these pictures of structures on Mars and like, I don't know how much weight to put in that. Hoagland did a lot of weird leaps, though. I've watched. Tons. Yeah. Tons. But I think the people that say like 0% there was life on Mars, they're crazy. I mean, there are water caverns all over Mars. That is a fact. So you have to be dogmatic to say that there wasn't life at some point. You know, I'm not saying, you have to think probabilistically, right? So it's like some percentage possibly real. On the Terrence Howard stuff, I see zero evidence for that. I mean, I have no idea.

• 39:38Speaker 02

  But that would point to maybe, like, I would believe that if like our whole universe is sort of information theoretic. So like you have, you know, John Wheeler, you know, famous physicist from Princeton, you know, saying we live in this sort of observer-dependent universe. He talks about like the anthropic principle, like where if Planck's constant, we're slightly different, the Earth's atmosphere wouldn't exist as is. And, you know, another example is like hydrogen and oxygen bond to form these perfect crystal structures. Where the solid form of it, so ice, is less dense than the liquid form of it, which never happens. That's just because of these perfect crystal structures. And if that weren't the case, the Earth would flood like a million times over. You know, the Earth is mostly water, right?

• 40:21Speaker 02

  So you have all these sort of like Goldilocks, you know, elements of the Earth that could point towards the Earth has been tried in a, you know, a bajillion iterations and we just got really lucky. You know, it's like the Elon thing. We are the little flaming candle and, you know, in this vast cosmos that is conscious and we are extremely lucky. Or that could point to the Earth being simulated.

• 40:44Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 40:45Speaker 02

  And so, you know, and that, so then maybe Terrence Howard is right. If the Earth is simulated, there are probably A B tests going on, just like in computer science.

• 40:53Joe Rogan?

  And then there's the moon.

• 40:55Speaker 02

  And then the moon's weird, too.

• 40:56Joe Rogan?

  The moon's really weird.

• 40:57Speaker 02

  The moon's super weird.

• 40:58Joe Rogan?

  The size of the moon directly corresponding, like when it's in orbit with the sun, completely blocks out the sun perfectly.

• 41:07Speaker 02

  It's one four hundredths the size of the sun and it's 400 times closer to the Earth than the sun. You never see the dark side, which is very weird. It's actually, I think, I believe it's closer to the Earth than what you would normally expect for a moon.

• 41:22Joe Rogan?

  And it's huge.

• 41:23Speaker 02

  It's huge. You have cultures actually talking about a pre-moon period and it's stabilizing the climate. You have the, you know, Zulu cultures talking about this. And then here's the weirdest stuff about the moon. Apollo 11, I believe, when the booster took off on the moon, they were like, oh, we, it might, we think it might be hollow and it's, you know, the, it seems like actually the outer layer of the moon is less dense, or sorry, is more dense than lower layers, which pattern matches only to an excavation site. That's obviously, you know, in Earth, the lower you go, it's more dense, right? And so Apollo 12, they intentionally crashed the booster of the lunar vehicle

• 42:05Speaker 02

  onto the moon. They put seismometers there and they said that it rang like a bell. These, this is all, you could look all this stuff. It's super weird.

• 42:15Joe Rogan?

  It is really weird. You know, I know you did an episode about that with Randall Carlson.

• 42:19Speaker 02

  Love Randall Carlson.

• 42:21Joe Rogan?

  He's got some wild fucking theories, too. But that, the idea that the moon was somehow another place there to stabilize our atmosphere is so crazy.

• 42:32Speaker 02

  It is crazy. And then, this is, you obviously have to sort of think in probabilities all the way down. Lowest probability craziest thing is Ingo Swan, who is another remote viewer in the Stargate program. He wrote a book called Penetration, where he's basically abducted by this guy in a suit, like this kind of Menin Black style guy named Axelrod, and he is told to remote view the moon. And he remote views an alien base on the moon. And he says that there, and he gets, the whole thing goes crazy. I mean, the book is insane. It's like, he then ends up in a supermarket, and he says that he senses that this woman, that, you know, the produce aisle is like an alien or something.

• 43:14Speaker 02

  But a lot of people from that Stargate program remote viewed, you know, structures on the dark side of the moon and that sort of thing, so.

• 43:21Joe Rogan?

  Well, AJ from the Y-Files was on, and he was the one that was telling us that there's photos, right, of the dark side of the moon? That someone had seen photos and was assuming that these would be released shortly? That there were structures, that, wow, this is gonna be the biggest news ever? And then it was never released?

• 43:40Speaker 02

  Are you talking about maybe Carl Wolf?

• 43:43Joe Rogan?

  Is that what it was?

• 43:44Speaker 02

  Who was taken to, this is all his claims, and he died in a freakish bike accident, a little after saying this. But he said that there was like, in Langley, you know, Virginia, where a lot of spooky stuff goes on. He was taken to some like, it was like inside a mountain complex, which we definitely, yeah, Carl Wolf, yeah.

• 44:04Joe Rogan?

  That guy bikes?

• 44:05Speaker 02

  Apparently not enough.

• 44:08Joe Rogan?

  That guy could die anytime.

• 44:09Speaker 02

  Oh, man.

• 44:10Joe Rogan?

  On a scooter. So, photographs of 1966 Lubener Orbiter mission that revealed large base of the moon. Can we hear what he's saying? Uh, it's a four man video. Just hear a little bit of it.

• 44:23Speaker 00

  Scan one section of the moon, then another and another, and then they would get a larger image. So this mosaic then would be put in that contact printer, and that was then a print that was issued to whomever, the press, the scientist, whatever, wherever that was intended to go. So he was showing me how all this worked, and we walked over to one side of the lab, and he said, "By the way, we've discovered a base on the backside of the moon." And I said, "Whose? What do you mean, whose?" He said, "Yes, we've discovered a base on the backside of the moon." And at that point, I became frightened, and I was a little terrified, thinking to myself that if anybody walks in the room now, I know we're in jeopardy, we're in trouble, because

• 45:07Speaker 00

  he shouldn't be giving me this information. I was fascinated by it, but I also knew that he was overstepping a boundary that he shouldn't be stepping over. And then he pulled out one of these mosaics and showed this base, which had geometric shapes, there were towers, there were spherical buildings, there were very tall towers, and things that looked somewhat like radar dishes, but they were large structures. So I didn't say any more to him, because I was concerned again that somebody was going to come in at any moment, would catch us having this conversation, and we would be in real trouble.

• 45:48Speaker 00

  I realized that he was telling me this information because he didn't have anybody else to talk to. Now, probably in that laboratory, he was probably one of the few enlisted people, and he was a worker bee. And he had a high-level security clearance, obviously, but he couldn't share that information with anybody else. And in those days, we didn't. When you had your security clearance, you took it seriously. It isn't like today, where people don't take these things seriously. We had a different set of morals and ethics and values. That's the way we were raised, and we stayed bound by those agreements. So it was rare that someone would do something like this, but this fellow and I were

• 46:28Speaker 00

  the same rank. I think he was very distressed. He had the same power and demeanor as the scientists outside the room. They were just as concerned as he was. And he needed to discuss it with somebody. So that was the end of it right there. I didn't take it any further than that. I, you know, I just filed it away. But the interesting thing, every day that I went home, I would think to myself, I can't wait to hear about this on the news, you know? And, you know, so I'd turn on the TV and I'd look at the news to see if they're gonna announce, we've discovered a base on the backside of the moon, being really naive, you know? And of course, here it is thirty some years later, and we still haven't heard about it.

• 47:13Joe Rogan?

  Whoa. Whoa.

• 47:16Speaker 02

  Pretty crazy.

• 47:17Joe Rogan?

  Yeah. But then there's the question of disinformation, right? Like, you could conceivably give people a bunch of nonsense and tell them about it, knowing that some of it is going to leak, and it's gonna make, and it won't be verified, and it's gonna make this whole story seem even more ridiculous, and make people less likely or reluctant to study it.

• 47:42Speaker 02

  Totally. And in his case, he says that he was in this, you know, mountain base or whatever, where all of the world's nations were working together as part of some, like, you know, collegial UN-style space program or whatever. So that, to me, might be a little, you know, beyond the pale. And I'm glad you made that point, because that is ufology 101. And I've heard you be incredibly exhausted and frustrated at UFO disclosure. And I think that is the reasonable response. It is limited hangouts on limited hangouts. It's just, we're gonna give you a little bit, but we're also gonna sprinkle in some falsities and some bullshit. We're gonna stigmatize it. And it kind of works, because

• 48:24Speaker 02

  it like, it creates this initiation path for recruiting, if there are any of these programs. It widens the surface area. It both conditions the populace, but also stigmatizes the thing and makes it seem like kind of a joke. And so I think if you are not viewing modern disclosure through that kind of hermeneutic lens of like, interpretation, and you're just taking it, accepting it, you know, imbibing it wholeheartedly, like, prima facie, I think you are in trouble.

• 48:51Joe Rogan?

  Yeah. But that's what's so interesting and fun and also frustrating about the subject.

• 48:57Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 48:57Joe Rogan?

  I mean, that's like the majority of your videos is like, I don't know. I don't know what to think. I don't, I don't know who's full of shit. I don't know how mu- I mean, I was, I was watching the Townsend Brown one today. Um, and you were talking about John Lear and John Lear's connection to Bob Lazar. And the possibility that Lear was spreading disinformation.

• 49:18Speaker 02

  Yep.

• 49:19Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 49:19Speaker 02

  So like, yeah, that's a, I've, by the way, since making that video. I've become more positive on Lazar, just insofar as I think he was at S4, Area 51. And there's gonna be a great documentary coming out by my buddy Luigi on this called Project Gravitar. And I think there's gonna be a lot of corroborating evidence that he was at least there and a lot in his story checks. But I think you have to, and I even say that in this video, that I think a lot of this story could be true. You can't, I think, view the Bob Lazar story, you can't just take it at face value. Because John Lear and he were friends. John Lear is this babbling UFO nut. He's obsessed with UFO.

• 50:01Speaker 02

  He's writing weird like disinfo-y style stuff with Bill Cooper, Behold the Pale Horse Guy.

• 50:07Joe Rogan?

  Which is a wild book.

• 50:08Speaker 02

  Which is a wild book. A wild, yeah. And so, he's crazy.

• 50:12Joe Rogan?

  He talks about, doesn't he talk about bases on the moon?

• 50:15Speaker 02

  Talks about bases on the moon. Lear also talked about a soul catcher that like controlled our souls on the moon.

• 50:21Joe Rogan?

  Oh, boy.

• 50:21Speaker 02

  And so Lear was like flooding the zone with all sorts of weird shit. Lear comes from an interesting family.

• 50:26Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 50:26Speaker 02

  His father is Bill Lear, who's the autopilot wizard. He created the first business, you know, basically the first private jet. The Lear Jet, uh, in the 50s and 60s. And was an associate of a guy I hope we talk about named Thomas Townsend Brown. And, um, and so I think, you know, Lear was engaging in all sorts of bullshit. Was he a useful idiot or was he a sophisticated agent provocateur? I'm totally open to him having been a useful idiot. In fact, there is a video of him saying, I was told, uh, I was given all the Bob Lazar files or whatever. And I was, I was told about- You know, to actually, like, he said, "A guy named Admiral McClellan knew that I ran my mouth."

• 51:10Speaker 02

  I even have this video, actually, on the dock that I sent you, Jamie. Says, "Knew that I ran my mouth." So that's why we, basically, we got Bob the job, or whatever, and we knew that part of this stuff would leak. And it was like this limited hangout strategy on behalf of this guy named Admiral McClellan, or whatever. And he was this useful idiot to sort of get it out. And I think there are- For what purpose? Recruiting. You give people high level- Yeah.

• 51:36Speaker 05

  And the MJ personnel, the original 12 have all passed away. So, they put, they get different people into these positions of MJ 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, and taken over. It's degraded, so it's almost political now, instead of like it was when Truman originally formed the MJ 12. It turns out that MJ 1, the head of MJ 12, is a guy named Admiral Mike McClellan. He wanted to get some of the information out, because he didn't want to, he thought that some of this information should be out in the public.

• 52:19Speaker 05

  We don't need to keep all this secrecy. So, he decided, trying to figure out a way to get it to the public. So, he knew that I was a blabbermouth, and I would tell anything I knew. They investigated Bob Lazar, and they knew that he was a genius. But, that he had a background such, that they could instantly discredit him. They removed all his records from MIT, from Caltech, so he couldn't prove anything. He'd go back to Cal, "No, I don't need any records here." "Well, I was here." "No, you weren't." And, he also, up in Reno, at one time, he ran a cat house there.

• 53:00Speaker 05

  And I forget what the name of the honeysuckle ranch it was. So, they chose him, because not only could he probably help them, because he was so smart, and his background, he's the one that named Ununpennium 115. He's the one that told them what that was, and they didn't know. When, when he went there, they didn't know what it was. He was the one that told them, "That's Element 115." And then told them why and how he'd figured it out. But they decided to pick on Bob to go up to work at S4 because they knew that Bob would

• 53:39Speaker 05

  tell me instantly and then I would blab the whole thing. And that was their modus operandi, was to get the information out and gauge what it did to the public, how they accepted it, and then pull back and say, oh, no, it was all a mistake. Bob Lazar, a fraud, he never worked here. He doesn't have any credentials like that. And they could back away and get out of it. So that was what Mike McClellan, I don't know why he came up with.

• 54:07Speaker 02

  Isn't that crazy? Weird. Weird. And to me- Kind of makes sense a little bit, though. It does. And that doesn't make Bob Lazar still not the most interesting story in the world. Like, he's saying, he's not saying it didn't happen, right? He's just saying that this happened as part of this limited hangout strategy where they knew that they could delete the records at MIT. They knew that they could stigmatize him because of the brothel. They knew that they're, you know, he was this not traditionally trained engineer who just happened to strap a ramjet on the back of a Honda or whatever and meet Edward Teller serendipitously. They knew that they could, they had plausible deniability on all that stuff. There's a great line in the Oppenheimer movie where Leslie Groves,

• 54:47Speaker 02

  played by Matt Damon, says, "I didn't hire Oppenheimer in spite of his communist sympathies. I hired him because of them." So you have a top secret program, you want compromise on people. You want to be able to blackmail them. And so I think, you know, that should be taken at face value, in my opinion. And the reason that the story itself can't be taken at face value and needs to be seen through that lens is Lear and Bob Lazar were friends before Bob Lazar got a job at Area 51, S4. And so if you have a top secret program, you're going to do a basic background check. And Lear is going to come up as a guy with a UFO blog, right? Right.

• 55:28Speaker 02

  And then the CIA is all over the UFO program, right? And he was flying CIA cargo jets. And he says that he disaffiliated in 83. That's bullshit. George Knapp- And Jeremy Corbell have talked about how that's how that's BS. And actually disaffiliated much later into the mid 80s or whatever. Why would you continue to pay a guy who is leaking your crown jewel secrets? And then the guards at Area 51 knew John Lear. John Lear and Jim Goodall, his buddy, who's a photographer, had been camping out at Area 51 for the better part of a decade. Like they, the security guards there knew him. Jeremy Corbell has talked about in interviews, like, I would go with John Lear and, and he would show me around or whatever. And they would like let him through.

• 56:11Speaker 02

  And before leaking the Bob Lazar story to George Knapp, he leaked a story about the F-117, which is the first stealth craft in the US. And so I think that helped establish sort of, you know, credibility or legitimacy. Was he a useful idiot or agent provocateur? I don't know. There's a photo of John Lear with G. Gordon Liddy. He's like as deep and spooky as it gets.

• 56:32Joe Rogan?

  I've met him.

• 56:33Speaker 02

  No way.

• 56:34Joe Rogan?

  He was on Fear Factor.

• 56:35Speaker 02

  No way.

• 56:36Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 56:36Speaker 02

  G. Gordon Liddy was on Fear Factor?

• 56:38Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 56:38Speaker 02

  Are you serious?

• 56:39Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 56:39Speaker 02

  You're not messing with me.

• 56:40Joe Rogan?

  No, no, G. Gordon Liddy was on Fear Factor.

• 56:42Speaker 02

  What?

• 56:43Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, he probably would have won, but there was a driving thing at the end and he couldn't drive well without glasses. And you weren't allowed to wear glasses? Yeah, look at that, G. Gordon Liddy.

• 56:53Speaker 02

  And John Lear. That is the most gonzo thing I've ever, you, G. Gordon Liddy was on? How does he, what, do you have like a quota of like?

• 57:02Joe Rogan?

  It was Celebrity Fear Factor.

• 57:03Speaker 02

  Celebrity Fear Factor?

• 57:05Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 57:06Speaker 02

  That's wild, man.

• 57:07Joe Rogan?

  He's a fascinating guy, like he was intense.

• 57:09Speaker 02

  I can only imagine.

• 57:10Joe Rogan?

  Meeting him, I was like, okay.

• 57:11Speaker 02

  What was he like?

• 57:12Joe Rogan?

  Fucking intense. There was one of the things where you had to be hung by your ankles and like, there he is.

• 57:18Speaker 02

  Oh, my God.

• 57:20Joe Rogan?

  G. Gordon Liddy on Fear Factor.

• 57:21Speaker 02

  Yeah, he looks nuts.

• 57:22Joe Rogan?

  Oh, yeah, he was nuts. And he was very old at the time. But I think that's what fucked him up in the final stunt. He couldn't see well without his glasses. And so this is the thing they had to like, I forget what they had to do. They had a, oh, they, they were dunked into the water over and over again. And then they had to like take flags off of them or something like that.

• 57:42Speaker 02

  Oh, my God.

• 57:43Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, wild.

• 57:45Speaker 02

  Wild. Did you sneak any questions in?

• 57:47Joe Rogan?

  No, I didn't. You know, I didn't have much time to talk to him, unfortunately. But you could just tell talking to him, like he was one intense motherfucker, even as an old man.

• 57:59Speaker 02

  Did you get sociopathic vibes?

• 58:01Joe Rogan?

  Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah, just like he'll do whatever the fuck it takes to get it, get the job done.

• 58:06Speaker 02

  You pulled off Watergate.

• 58:07Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, look at him there.

• 58:09Speaker 02

  Oh, my god.

• 58:12Joe Rogan?

  Crazy.

• 58:12Speaker 02

  Crazy.

• 58:13Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 58:13Speaker 02

  That is unbelievable. What an art, what an amazing, that is just, I mean, you've had a lot of crazy experiences in life.

• 58:21Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 58:22Speaker 02

  That's crazy.

• 58:22Joe Rogan?

  That's a weird one. That was a weird one, because everybody was, you know, they weren't, the people that were on the show weren't nearly as fascinated as I was. I was like, do you know how fucking wild that dude is? Yeah, I mean, that guy is deep. He's deep in there.

• 58:36Speaker 02

  Deep, very deep. Oh, my god. Unbelievable.

• 58:44Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 58:45Speaker 02

  Wild. It's a gonzo moment.

• 58:47Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, for sure. Like, very strange. Like, why would you do this? It was, it was, I don't even understand why he did it.

• 58:54Speaker 02

  It's proof we live in a simulation.

• 58:55Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, maybe. It was very strange. Like, what would be his objective, like?

• 59:02Speaker 02

  I feel people like that love fucking around. They love getting a rise out of people and they love, you know, if he is a sociopath, he loves, you know, going back to the scene of the crime and just as much attention as he can get. I don't, I can't psychoanalyze. G. Gordon Liddy.

• 59:17Joe Rogan?

  He famously put cigarettes out on himself, holds his hand in flames.

• 59:21Speaker 02

  I didn't know that.

• 59:22Joe Rogan?

  Yeah. Just to show that he could control his response to pain.

• 59:28Speaker 02

  Say goodbye.

• 59:28Joe Rogan?

  And he felt like that when you're around him, you know, like, like, so that thing that they had to do where they got dunked and they, you know, they're hanging by their ankles and dunked into water, so it disorients you while you're trying to do this task, he did it better than anybody.

• 59:44Speaker 02

  And they just couldn't drive.

• 59:45Joe Rogan?

  At like 150 years old, or whatever the fuck he was.

• 59:47Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 59:48Joe Rogan?

  I felt like we're gonna kill him. He's like really old to be doing this intense, physical thing to him. Yeah, but at the end, you just couldn't see at night, you know, it was like, when you get old, your nighttime vision's real bad.

• 1:00:01Speaker 02

  Poor G. Gordon Liddy.

• 1:00:03Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, but, so, how did Lazar know what element 115 was?

• 1:00:09Speaker 02

  I don't know, you know, so element 115, elements are just differentiated by the number of protons. So it is easy to predict there will be an element 115 before element 115 gets discovered. If they have, I don't, I think they don't have a stable version of moscovium, which is element 115. And so if they can find some stable version, I think he'll be super vindicated, based on that.

• 1:00:34Joe Rogan?

  Well, you know, they think he has a stable version.

• 1:00:36Speaker 02

  I know that.

• 1:00:37Joe Rogan?

  Yeah. They think that was part of, during Jeremy Corbell's documentary that he was doing on Lazar, he was raided by the FBI. They raided his lab, and he thinks that's what they were looking for.

• 1:00:48Speaker 02

  That is wild.

• 1:00:49Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:00:49Speaker 02

  I, I think there is so much real about the Lazar story. I think he was at S4, I think he met Edward Teller, I think he was at Los Alamos. I think he was at MIT. I know he, there's some stuff he told you offline. MIT's engaged in a lot of spooky stuff, where you can't talk about what you were doing. There's a lot of federally funded weird stuff going on there.

• 1:01:09Joe Rogan?

  If you want to teach your people how to do something that's kind of fucked up, you would send them to MIT.

• 1:01:14Speaker 02

  Hundred percent. EG and G came from Doc Edgerton, who was, you know, MIT faculty. And that's where he ended up working, after meeting Edward Teller, was EG and G. So I, I believe there's a lot in that story that's super true. I'm just, that lens, you need to apply that lens.

• 1:01:32Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 1:01:32Speaker 02

  The limited hangout lens.

• 1:01:33Joe Rogan?

  Well, it's also like, what is he dealing with, really? Like, what is the craft? Is that thing ours? Is, did we have something in 1988 that was that sophisticated? Or is that really back engineered?

• 1:01:48Speaker 02

  That's the-

• 1:01:48Joe Rogan?

  What is the, is it a mindfuck?

• 1:01:51Speaker 02

  That's the trillion dollar question. Is this tech protect? This is at a time when stealth craft had just came on the scene. And you had- When did stealth technology first get implemented? It was the F-117 was the first stealth craft. That was the early 80s. And you had actually this guy named Piotr Ufimtsev, who is this- What a name. Yeah, very, a great name. Early 20th century Russian mathematician that Ben Rich and some of his engineers at Lockheed Skunk Works had resuscitate. There's this kind of fight between, not fight, but disagreement between Ben Rich, who is the incoming Skunk Works director. Skunk Works is the most advanced R&D division of Lockheed Martin. And Kelly Johnson, the legendary guy who had started

• 1:02:35Speaker 02

  Skunk Works. And so Ben Rich was very pro stealth. He thought that this was this really important modality. And he and a couple of his engineers resuscitated this obscure Russian mathematician to reduce radar cross-sections on planes. And that's where the F-117 came. And you know, the B-2 was sort of the response to that. And it sort of took off in the 80s. And he was extremely scared about about tech protection at the time. And he was hyper vigilant. And he would actively complain about it. And he even called UFOs unfunded opportunities at the time. Pretty crazy, right?

• 1:03:15Speaker 02

  So that's the backdrop. And there's also, in 1986, there's a budget line item in the congressional budget for $2 billion for the Aurora. And this is this super stealthy craft that's post F-117. And that's only rumored. Like today, nobody will admit that the Aurora might have been real. And the aerial surveys at the time were picking up sonic booms that weren't being created by the SR-71 or the space shuttle. And so there was something being flown around at that time that was, you know, causing these sonic booms that was unaccounted for. And Bob Lazar, there's even a clip of him saying, "I saw the Aurora." It was like, you know, it was it was around at the time and it sort of just took off

• 1:03:56Speaker 02

  or whatever, which is, I think, a point in the direction that Lazar himself is very earnest and probably did experience some very weird stuff because why are you exposing some probably classified tech? I think there's a lot of reasons to believe that the Aurora was real. There was an oil rig engineer in the North Sea, or sorry, it might have been the Black Sea, that sketched it out. And Bill Sweetman, this Jane's Defense Weekly aviation journalist, you know, picked that story up. What did he describe it as? Uh, this, this, uh, kind of, it was a triangle similar to the B2, but I think more, more narrow, and it just flew incredibly fast, like, like, uh, faster than, you know, the

• 1:04:36Speaker 02

  F-117 and, and, um, yeah, yeah, I don't know. It was, it was just super advanced.

• 1:04:43Joe Rogan?

  Can you envision, I mean, would it be actually possible in 1988 to, could you imagine that the United States would possess some sort of actual technology that's not back engineered, that's not, not from another world, that is what Lazar described?

• 1:05:02Speaker 02

  It's funny you should ask that. Yes, I do. Yes. And that's not to say, I don't want to, again, pour cold water on the, like, UFO crash retrieval stuff, because I think there's a lot of interesting evidence there. But is there a tech tree that involves anti-gravity? Absolutely, in the US. And I can trace it all the way back to this guy named Thomas Townsend Brown. So if we were to be talking in front of any academic physicist right now, they would laugh at us. They'd be like, "You're crazy." If we were to talk amongst any aerospace gray beard who is at a certain level, I think they'd give you a little wink and a smile. And they'd say, "Okay, like, maybe there's something there." And so, uh,

• 1:05:45Speaker 02

  the nominal history is that we have never been able, we have, we don't have exotic propulsion principles. Like, everything is, you know, chemical combustion, essentially. You had Elon Musk on, and he says, you know, um, "It's all Newton's three laws, you can't get anything better." And I remember you asked him, you're like, "Well, maybe if you, what if you could get something better?" And he's like, "It's impossible." We have not unified the field in physics. So you have the weak force, the strong force, um, and electromagnetism, and all of those have been reconciled. Gravity is out here hanging out by itself on an island. So you have the standard model, quantum field theory, and you have Einstein's theory of gravity. And the two are not reconcilable. It is my belief that if you were to reconcile them, you could create exotic propulsion, which

• 1:06:30Speaker 02

  I think, you know, any even, you know, reasonable- ...theoretical physicist who's credentialed would say if you could reconcile them, that's that's possible. I think that Thomas Townsend Brown did this experimentally, not theoretically. I don't think he was a very strong theoretical physicist, but I think he did this experimentally. And so there's this whole hidden history involving anti-gravity, and I get into this in my show with How Put Off and Eric Weinstein, where there's actually this great 1971 Australian Joint Intelligence Organization document that is verified, it's real, David Grush actually cites it a lot. And it talks about, basically, it's this guy Harry Turner, who's the head of the nuclear division in Australia, very legit guys, like they're Oppenheimer, if

• 1:07:14Speaker 02

  you will. And they were actually, they had a Wumera test range in southern Australia. So there were some actually British Empire like nuclear stuff going on. It was mostly like, I think, missile testing. But there are reasons to believe that maybe he started to get interested in UFOs to begin with. And so he looked into US efforts into UFO research, but also specifically anti-gravity. And he talks about how after a little bit of investigation, US efforts into anti-gravity are far deeper than meet the eye. And Blue Book, this front-facing PR campaign that's part of the Air Force, is total BS. And it's

• 1:07:55Speaker 02

  meant to stigmatize UFOs and throw people off the trail. And it's actually, this now declassified document around the Robertson memo, which is around this Robertson panel, that kind of created the constitution for Blue Book, all shows that this was the case with Blue Book. He says, actually, there were secret anti-gravity programs going on at the time, and they involved, and he lists names, Oppenheimer, Freeman Dyson, John Wheeler, and Edward Teller. He lists all these names, the head of the nuclear program in Australia. And so then you have to ask the question, okay, so you have this official government document saying this stuff, like, does this line up with any artifacts at the time? Well,

• 1:08:35Speaker 02

  actually, in 1956, there's an article in Young Men's Magazine, this kind of aviation hobbyist journal. By a guy named Michael Gladich, and he is quoting all of the industry experts. You know, Bill Lear is quoted, who we talked about. Who else is quoted? George Trimble, who's a VP at Martin Corporation, their RIAS, their anti-gravity research program. He says, "Anti-gravity research is, you know, we're gonna, we're gonna figure this out in just amount, in just the same amount of time that it took to figure out the atom bomb." Like, it's, it's right around the bend, sort of thing. You had the patron of Bell Aircraft, they had just broken the sound barrier with the,

• 1:09:19Speaker 02

  with the X-1, 1947. So, there you go, Michael Gladich.

• 1:09:22Joe Rogan?

  The G-engines are coming. Whoa. Whoa. "By far, the most potent source of energy is gravity. Using it as power, future aircraft will attain the speed of light." Holy shit.

• 1:09:36Speaker 02

  And, and Bell says, like, you know, "We're experimenting with nuclear fuels to cancel out gravity." Richard Arnowitz and Stanley Dessar-

• 1:09:45Joe Rogan?

  Look at they have a diagram of how it would work.

• 1:09:48Speaker 02

  It's wild.

• 1:09:48Joe Rogan?

  Protective boundary layer-

• 1:09:50Speaker 02

  Yep.

• 1:09:51Joe Rogan?

  Cabin, electronic rockets, gravity generator.

• 1:09:55Speaker 02

  They talk about gravity particles. Stanley Dessar and Richard Arnowitz at Princeton are studying this.

• 1:10:00Joe Rogan?

  So, what do you think was going on?

• 1:10:02Speaker 02

  I think they were deeply investigating anti-grav-

• 1:10:05Joe Rogan?

  I mean, there, there is- But do you think they had a working model?

• 1:10:07Speaker 02

  I think they had an effect, called the Byfield-Brown effect, that showed that you could couple electromagnetism and gravity at a base level, and you could do it in a vacuum, which rules out ionized air as the possible reason for threat. So, I'll, I'll back up, and I'll just give you what the experiment is. So, it's, you take a capacitor, right? And so, a capacitor is a positive electrode and a negative electrode. It's an asymmetric capacitor. So, the negative electrode is bigger than the positive capacitor. And the two are, in between the two is an insulator called a high-k dielectric. So, it's a material that stores a lot of electromagnetic charge.

• 1:10:51Speaker 02

  You pump the entire thing- With high voltage and low current electricity. And Brown used to do it with DC, direct current pulses. And you see thrust going from the negative to the positive. And if you do that in air, then you can always say that it's ionized air. Because ions are being produced and then you get this equal and opposite reaction with the wind and then you get this thrust, right? So that's not breaking physics. If you do this in a depressurized vacuum chamber, where there basically is no air to, you know, create this kind of equal and opposite force for the thrust, then you are breaking physics as we know it.

• 1:11:35Speaker 02

  There are other things that break physics as we know it. You had Sonny White on. He talked about like the Casimir effect, you know, which is a real effect that involves not charged but conductive plates that are very close to each other that seem to attract. There's the Bohm, the Ernoff Bohm effect, which might be explained by the electromagnetic four potential. There are other effects in physics where you don't, you can't quite explain it in the current model, but they are harbingers, if you will, of the next paradigm. I believe that when you find an anomaly, it is pointing towards the next scientific paradigm. Black body radiation is a great example, was discovered in the 1870s by a guy named Gustav Kirchhoff.

• 1:12:17Speaker 02

  We could not explain it until the quantum revolution with Max Planck, where he, you know, actually discovered quanta. The orbit of Mercury is another good example, where we didn't understand, you know, we couldn't calculate Mercury's orbit until we had spacetime curvature and Einstein. So Newton didn't quite explain it. So my belief is the Bifield-Brown effect is an anomaly that seemed to ostensibly visually unify the field. Or it's pointing towards something else, gravitational shielding. Or it's pointing towards how I put off stuff around, you know, quantum vacuum fluctuations. I don't know. I don't have a great theory for how it works. I don't think Brown had an amazing theory for how it works.

• 1:13:01Speaker 02

  But it's an effect that I think creates this tech tree of exotic electromagnetic propulsion that leads us to today. It's an effect that's not supposed to happen. And this, what is this, Jeremy?

• 1:13:14Speaker 06

  Kayak searches and compares hundreds of travel sites. But unless I repeat the word kayak, kayak thinks you won't remember that. So kayak asked me to say kayak as many times as possible. Kayak.

• 1:13:27Speaker 07

  Kayak. Kayak. Kayak. Kayak.

• 1:13:32Speaker 06

  Kayak. Kai. Ooh. Ak. Kai, Kai, Kai, Kai, kayak. Kayak, kayak, kayak. Search, compare, and save on your trip. Kayak. Got that right.

• 1:13:46Speaker 02

  The Bifield Brown Effect? That is a... Campbell Thruster in a vacuum chamber? Yeah, that's a lateral propeller version of it. And you don't have to listen to me, by the way. The lead electrostatics guy at NASA is a guy named Charles Bueller. He's been doing this for 20 years and he's at Kennedy Space Center. He is the lead. They use electrostatics to like clean dust off the lunar lander or whatever because those particles are actually charged. And he's the most senior guy in electrostatics. And he says, "This is not a conventional electrostatic force." And he attributes his work to Townsend Brown. I could show you in an interview. He literally says Townsend Brown was like the first guy to discover this. He's updated it a bit. He says that it's not just sheer voltage. You don't need to use megavoltage.

• 1:14:31Speaker 02

  And actually, electric field strength is the most important thing. So we use kilovolts. And he amps up the electric field strength in order to get more thrust. But he has a whole company around this. It's called Exodus Space. So like, you don't have to listen. Another very credentialed person, if we're on that, a guy named Carl Nell, who I have reason to believe that some of Brown's work made it into the B2 stealth bomber. I don't think it's the anti-gravity part. It's a part called electrohydrodynamics that made it into the B2 stealth bomber. But the point is, I interviewed a guy who was the deputy CTO of Northrop Grumman. And he also was the Army representative of the UAP Task Force, along with David Grush, where they were investigating UFOs.

• 1:15:14Speaker 02

  And he says, "I was in a room filled with venture capitalists and entrepreneurs." I was like, "Carl..." These people want actionable stuff like can you actually make progress with any of this UFO stuff or is it all like kind of metaphysical you know and like kind of not even wrong as Feynman would say and he goes well if you want you know some actionable stuff go watch Jesse's video on Thomas Townsend Brown and so like I've gotten this time and time again where I've had all these private experiences about you know with Brown where I'm like is anybody seeing this like this is crazy and it's you know I don't know it's weird.

• 1:15:52Joe Rogan?

  So let's take this back to when was Brown conducting these experiments initially?

• 1:15:58Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:15:59Joe Rogan?

  What year was this?

• 1:16:00Speaker 02

  The early twenties so like 1923 24 range.

• 1:16:04Joe Rogan?

  Whoa.

• 1:16:04Speaker 02

  He was a child prodigy so their newspaper clement he was from Zanesville Ohio he was born in 1905 and 1915 he was you know caught in the garden or whatever using charged rods to get worms to ascend to the top of the soil then at age 12 he the world war government under Woodrow Wilson it was probably the local government told him to take down a wireless transmitter that he had created an antenna that he had created like this walkie talkie system that he had developed at the time and there there's newspaper clippings talking about this at the time that like totally corroborate this he then goes to Caltech he studies under a guy named Robert Milliken who's actually a really well respected physicist

• 1:16:45Speaker 02

  who was helped developed Einstein's photoelectric effect or actually you know demonstrated experimentally Milliken doesn't really give him the time of day on on the biofield Brown effect and the way he discovered the effect is actually he was using Coolidge x-ray tubes so these are really early x-ray tubes and they have every x-ray tube has or every Coolidge tube has a cathode and an anode so a negative and a positive electrode and he would pump it full of you know high voltage electricity and the wire would jump. And then he would actually, he would put it in a fixed chassis and it would keep jumping. And then he would suspend it from, you know, the ceiling and it would keep jumping. And he was like, what's going on? Like, this isn't supposed to happen. And there are ways

• 1:17:29Speaker 02

  to, again, explain that away via traditional electrostatics. So he later got the idea to do this in a vacuum chamber and really prove it. But after Caltech, he then goes to Dennison University, where he studies under a guy named Paul Alfred Beifield. And Dennison University, for the longest time, has denied that relationship, and now they're admitting it, which is, I find really funny. The archivist there is now admitting it. There is an affidavit from the Navy where Paul Alfred Beifield signs a letter saying, "I witnessed this effect. It's an anomalous effect." From there, he goes on, and it's witnessed by a guy named Victor Bertrandius, who's at the Wright Patterson, Wright Airfield at the time, Flight Test Division. He's

• 1:18:10Speaker 02

  working with Colonel Albert Boyd on all the, you know, crazy flight tests. In 1952, he says, "Believe it or not, I saw a model of a flying saucer, and I was frightened. And I'm frightened for it getting out," because, and I'm paraphrasing a little bit, "because I believe it's in the stage of early atomic development." And that's in 1952. He then shows a fan precipitator experiment, which really shows the electrohydrodynamic effect, which is similar, but not the same, as the electromagnetism-gravity thing, to Edward Teller, the father of the H-bomb. And Edward Teller himself says, "I don't know how this works." And then his wife turns to Townsend Brown's daughter, and I have this, by the

• 1:18:50Speaker 02

  way, on a phone call with Townsend Brown's daughter, who's saying this all happened, turns to her, and she says, "I've never heard him say that, because he's such a genius." I mean, he was a Hungarian, brilliant, you know, father of the H-bomb. And so you have all these interesting eyewitnesses. Brown was an associate of Bill Lear. You have video of Bill Lear and Townsend Brown together in a lab, in the Bainsen Lab in North Carolina, together. In fact, there's a Chapel Hill Conference in 1957, which is, basically creates quantum gravity, of which the offshoot is string theory. And actually, Eric Weinstein talked about it on your show.

• 1:19:33Speaker 02

  It's at the Institute of Field Physics in North Carolina, Chapel Hill. They are funding Brown's work in the back room. And there is video of Brown working on his experiments, working under Agnew Banson. And in that 1971 Australian intelligence memo, you have all these outposts of anti-gravity research. University of North Carolina is one of those outposts. It's crazy. And says the CIA's Office of Scientific Intelligence is coordinating all of this stuff. The president of University of North Carolina in the 50s around this time is a guy named Gordon Gray, who's this super spooky guy who revoked Oppenheimer's Q clearance. And he's also implicated in these sort of MJ12 documents, which I don't necessarily want to mush in with Brown.

• 1:20:18Speaker 02

  It has to be viewed through that sort of passage material, like limited hangout lens. But Gordon Gray is this very interesting character. The point is that the people who were sending physics down the wrong path with the Chapel Hill Conference, and this is a conference in 1957 that convenes the top theoretical physicists in the world. Freeman Dyson, Peter Bergman, Feynman was there, John Wheeler was there, Bryce DeWitt, all these people. At the same time, they were funding in the back room, this kind of zany inventor, Townsend Brown, who is performing these experiments in vacuum chambers. And there's video of him popping champagne, where it's like, why are you popping champagne? Probably because you got a successful experiment. That was the second time he had tested this in a vacuum.

• 1:21:03Speaker 02

  So again, it's reduced, it's eliminating this sort of ionized wind effect. Before that, a year before that, in Paris, at the Montgolfier facilities, he performed this in a vacuum. And this guy named Jacques Corneille was this, he died in 2009, but Townsend Brown's biographer has him... On record in a phone call that is recorded saying the tests were very tricky, but in the end we got it to work. And he's on his deathbed and he's saying all of this. And you have a 120-page, 125-page report for the Montgolfier project. And when Brown comes back to America, he's picked up, according to his daughter Linda, by a guy named Robert Sarbacher, who runs rampant, I mean, there are so many Sarbacher stories

• 1:21:45Speaker 02

  when it comes to UFOs. He says that UFOs are classified at two points higher than the H-bomb. He's talking to this guy, Wilbert Smith, who's this magnetics expert in Canada about their experimentations with UFOs. And so he's the guy that picks up, and he's head of Washington National Labs and running research and development for Vannevar Bush at the time. And he's the guy who picks up Brown where it's like, okay, we've got to take this seriously because you've got it to work in a vacuum.

• 1:22:10Joe Rogan?

  The idea that they've kept all this secret for all these years seems impossible.

• 1:22:16Speaker 02

  I don't think it is.

• 1:22:17Joe Rogan?

  To me.

• 1:22:18Speaker 02

  Yeah, sure.

• 1:22:19Joe Rogan?

  I mean, I'm sure it's not. You know what I mean? But from my limited understanding of how things work and secretive government projects, that they could have a gravity propulsion system in place for decades.

• 1:22:33Speaker 02

  Yeah. It seems crazy to me, but he had something, Brown had something called his wounded prairie chicken routine, which is basically showing people something called, it was basically the electrohydrodynamic effect, which is not the electrogravitic effect. So these are two very different things. One is coupling, again, electromagnetism and gravity somehow, creating some gravity shielding or whatever. You can do this in a vacuum. And then the other thing is what you could see on YouTube videos, which is associated with Townsend Brown, where you have basically these balsa wood structures, you have tin foil at the bottom and you have a copper wire at the top. The copper wire is the positive

• 1:23:14Speaker 02

  electrode. The tin foil is the negative electrode. The copper wire is producing ions, which is creating thrust because those neutral ions are bombarding the wind, which is creating thrust in a certain direction. So that is an experiment that is 95% similar to the electrogravitic thing. It wears the mantle of being electrogravitic, but it's actually using this other principle that You can just describe using normal physics and, you know, Newton's laws.

• 1:23:40Joe Rogan?

  Well, what about material science? Like, what about the actual structure itself? You know, because this is where it gets really weird, right?

• 1:23:48Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:23:49Joe Rogan?

  These nano layers of whatever the material is that's being used. What was the?

• 1:23:59Speaker 02

  Is it bismuth?

• 1:24:00Joe Rogan?

  Bismuth.

• 1:24:00Speaker 02

  So this is what's crazy. So magnesium bismuth shows up a lot. It shows up in Thomas Townsend Brown's Winter Haven Proposal in 1954, where he's describing these electrogravitic effects because it's a high-k dielectric. It stores a lot of electromagnetic charge. But it also shows up, there's actually an interview with Lewis Witten, who's the father of Ed Witten, who's this master string theorist that Eric Wein says is the Michael Jordan of physics, you know, on your show.

• 1:24:26Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:24:26Speaker 02

  And Lewis Witten says, "There was a guy named Townsend who discovered an isotope of bismuth that would repel instead of attracting." Who's named Townsend at that time? It's clear, he's talking about Townsend Brown. If you actually look at Gary Nolan's samples that he studied, Gary Nolan is, you know, a PhD at Stanford, is a tenured professor. And he has, you know, spun out multiple nine-figure companies in biotechnology. Really smart guy. He runs the Seoul Foundation, they're studying sort of, you know, non-human intelligence. He has these samples, various samples of different crash materials that he's gotten from Jacques Vallée, who you've had on as the French godfather of ufology, who, you know, his address is posted online. If you see a crash, you send it to Jacques.

• 1:25:11Speaker 02

  Jacques, you know, sends a lot of his materials to Gary. One of the materials is magnesium bismuth. And this was apparently, I believe this was the material that they found around the Roswell crash, I think. And magnesium bismuth is a high-k dielectric and it's...

• 1:25:31Speaker 02

  Over and over again, it's mentioned by Thomas Townsend Brown. So you have this weird thing around the material that creates more thrust via these anti-gravity experiments is also showing up in UFO lore.

• 1:25:43Joe Rogan?

  Do you explore the possibility the Roswell crash was not from another world?

• 1:25:49Speaker 02

  That's where it gets weird, man, because that was early. That was July of 1947.

• 1:25:54Joe Rogan?

  Right, like, so the bismuth thing, like, when you're talking about the way this stuff is layered, that's where it gets really weird, right?

• 1:26:01Speaker 02

  That's where it's layered thinner than, you know, it's like micron-layered, like thinner than human hairs. I think the Hal Puthoff quote on this. And I don't know the provenance on that. And I don't know, you know, per games being played in this space, I don't know if that actually came from the Roswell crash.

• 1:26:18Joe Rogan?

  But if it didn't come from the Roswell crash, like, let's imagine, is it possible to make that stuff today? And with those layers?

• 1:26:28Speaker 02

  Hal Puthoff would say no, and it's probably beyond my material science knowledge.

• 1:26:33Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:26:34Speaker 02

  Yeah, I don't know. People who are very smart on this subject, like Hal and Gary, who I speak to, you know, at a decent frequency, say no.

• 1:26:41Joe Rogan?

  Okay, so if they say no, maybe they're wrong. Maybe there is a lab somewhere that can recreate it. But could they recreate it at scale? Like, could they 3D print that to something that could actually get people inside and fly around? And then, could that have been done in 1947? That's where it gets super fucking weird.

• 1:27:00Speaker 02

  It gets super weird.

• 1:27:01Joe Rogan?

  Because you, you know, there's some leaps, right? Okay, we had the H-bomb, you know, we had, we had atomic energy, we had a lot of stuff back then, they split the atom, there's some really incredible advances.

• 1:27:13Speaker 02

  I don't believe we had anti-gravity. That, I, like, if I track Brown's stuff at the time, which I think, you know, he was kind of the tip of the spear on this stuff, he was using... These capacitor models and trying to get that experimentally proven and sometimes being thwarted via like, you know, mainstream academic circles at that time. Like, the Chapel Hill Conference was much later, and that's where he's like, kind of officially proving this stuff in the US government context in 1957. So I do not believe that the Roswell crash is easily explained by an anti- early anti- Kelly Goddard, who is a father of American rocketry, was doing rocket testing at- around Roswell at the time. Like, and so that's like, total chemical combustion. You had V2s at the time where, you know, that was top of the line.

• 1:27:58Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, so this opens up the door to the possibility of back engineering.

• 1:28:01Speaker 02

  Absolutely.

• 1:28:02Joe Rogan?

  Which is where it gets really weird. So now it's, we're not dealing with hidden science, we're not dealing with top secret, compartmentalized, like, you know, need to know, everything's pushed away into skunk works and wherever the fuck it's done. You're talking about something that's not from here.

• 1:28:17Speaker 02

  Well, it's interesting you say back engineering. In 1949, there is a contract that anybody can look up, I put it on the Doc Jamie, between Wright Patterson, there was a Wright Airfield at the time, and Batel Memorial Institute. And you have-

• 1:28:32Joe Rogan?

  Jamie's eyes light up.

• 1:28:34Speaker 02

  And you got, "Shout out Columbus, Ohio."

• 1:28:36Joe Rogan?

  All roads lead to Ohio.

• 1:28:38Speaker 02

  Right?

• 1:28:39Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:28:40Speaker 02

  And you have all these titanium alloys, and one of them is called nitanol, which is a nickel titanium alloy.

• 1:28:48Joe Rogan?

  So this is 49?

• 1:28:49Speaker 02

  This is 1949. And so if you have, you know, Army Intelligence Officer, you know, Jesse Marcel, says that he picks up the crash material, and he says that it was like this memory, shape metal, memory metal thing that you would kind of, you know, mess with it and it would go back into its original form, right? It was like this kind of like tin foil-y like thing. And so nitanol was found at a Navy lab in the 60s. That was when it was actually fully published, but you have this contract between Wright Airfield and Batel Memorial Institute, where you have nitanol in, as one of the metals that they're testing. Not only that-

• 1:29:28Joe Rogan?

  In 49.

• 1:29:29Speaker 02

  In 2012, they FOIA, they used the Freedom of Information Act to figure out that a guy named Elroy J. John Center, E.J. Center, was one of the co-authors of that paper. Elroy John Center died, I think in 1991. Before that, he had told two MUFON UFO researchers, Nick Nickerson and Irene Scott. And they presented this at MUFON in Ohio in 1992. They said this guy was this metallurgist, he worked at Patel. Again, he's been FOIA'd as part of this paper. And he says, "I worked on alien material." And that there were weird hieroglyphics on it. And that I had to, I had to like, you know, I was, I was, I was a chem, he was a chemist.

• 1:30:13Speaker 02

  And so he had to look at like metal impurities. But he was also meant to decipher the, the, you know, hieroglyphics on it or whatever. And so I don't know, was Nittinol maybe just inspired by the stuff that Marcel recovered? Because obviously the rumors are that the Roswell crash wreckage ended up at Wright Airfield. Or was it, you know, this one-to-one thing? And EJ Center is at the center of it, no pun intended. Where he's FOIA'd in 2012 and he says he has these UF, he's looking at UFO material. And he's on record working at Patel, you can look that up.

• 1:30:46Joe Rogan?

  Well, not only is there record that the Roswell crash was brought to Wright. But that it was brought in two separate jets in case it crashed. And that Truman met them there.

• 1:30:58Speaker 02

  Yup. I don't, I don't know if that's true.

• 1:31:01Joe Rogan?

  I need to know. I want to see a photo of the fucking hieroglyphs.

• 1:31:05Speaker 02

  I know.

• 1:31:06Joe Rogan?

  Could you imagine the glimpse at alien writing?

• 1:31:08Speaker 02

  Do you think that would be amazing? Do you think you have a better chance now than ever at being, because you interviewed Trump? Would Trump let you be the disclosure guy? And I could be the water boy on the side, making sure that the PH is right?

• 1:31:24Joe Rogan?

  Oh dude, if that's possible, I don't think they tell Trump shit. I think they, they would withhold that from him. Why would you tell that guy?

• 1:31:31Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:31:32Joe Rogan?

  I mean, that guy's a substitute teacher as far as the government's concerned. I mean, he's doing a lot of wild stuff in terms of like withholding funding for Harvard and all these different things and the border stuff and the ICE stuff. There's a lot of stuff that I think is allowed to go on, but I think if you get to the highest levels of technological sophistication, black budget stuff that has been kept under wraps for fucking decades, you think they're gonna tell the guy who was the host of The Apprentice? I don't think they'd tell him because they think he's only in there for four years.

• 1:32:06Speaker 02

  Probably not with two caveats. One is his son, Don Jr., interviewed him and said, "What do you think happened at Roswell?" And he said, "Well, I think there's something very interesting that might have happened."

• 1:32:16Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, that's all he ever says.

• 1:32:18Speaker 02

  And he says it was on your show, too.

• 1:32:19Joe Rogan?

  He doesn't spill the beans at all. But I mean, maybe he doesn't spill the beans because he doesn't know where the beans are.

• 1:32:25Speaker 02

  Right. Maybe he's looking for more of a smoking guy, like he needs to know more.

• 1:32:28Joe Rogan?

  Is that really his primary concern? He's a 78-year-old man who doesn't do drugs. Like, is...

• 1:32:35Joe Rogan?

  You know, he said no psychedelic experiences. Maybe he's not even interested in this concept.

• 1:32:41Speaker 02

  I think about that sometimes with people on the Hill that I speak to where I'm like, "Can you just like, I'm giving you all this info."

• 1:32:48Joe Rogan?

  Can you think outside the box?

• 1:32:49Speaker 02

  "Figure it out." And they, they don't compute it. There's some, there's a person who, like you're the archetype of this, who's like so fascinated by it.

• 1:32:59Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 1:32:59Speaker 02

  And then there is a person who goes, "But I gotta pay taxes, dude."

• 1:33:02Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, they have to get re-elected.

• 1:33:04Speaker 07

  (singing) Joy to see the world, kayak compares deals. Let's save a dough on your trip. And what a trip it is. Find options for flights. Book one, that's right. And cars and hotels, too. And cars and hotels, too. Search Halliday Travel with kayak, got that right?

• 1:33:34Joe Rogan?

  Super busy. Yeah, you'd have to find someone whose primary concern is that. And that bug has to bite you.

• 1:33:41Speaker 02

  It has to bite you.

• 1:33:42Joe Rogan?

  You have to get infected with UFO Lyme disease.

• 1:33:46Joe Rogan?

  If you don't, you're not gonna want to release all this stuff. And I don't think Trump is infected. I mean, I think his, even the way he describes these things is very different than the way he describes other things. Like, he famously was talking to Steve Hilton, and it was one of the few times in history that a sitting president has mentioned the military industrial complex, wanting to go to war. These guys want to go to war. And he was saying that in that interview, and I remember thinking, wow, that is wild to hear him say to a guy on Fox News that there's factions in this incredibly dense

• 1:34:26Joe Rogan?

  complex of corporations and defense contractors, and there's insane amounts of money involved, and these guys want to go to war. And he was saying that in that interview. And I'm like, this is, I mean, this is what Eisenhower said when he was leaving office.

• 1:34:41Speaker 02

  Straight up.

• 1:34:42Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, straight up.

• 1:34:43Speaker 02

  There's a, there's a straight line between then and now, and it feels like it's hitting this apex where we're involved in it. It's like you had the Civil War, 1861. Now we have like a deep state war going on. Where it's like Tulsi's going in there as an outsider and this like light warrior, and she's being like red teamed and attacked, and she doesn't know who's on her side.

• 1:35:05Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:35:05Speaker 02

  It's crazy.

• 1:35:06Joe Rogan?

  Yeah. It's, it's pretty wild. It's pretty wild how nothing gets done. And, you know, and it's set up so nothing gets done. But my point is that Trump, his response to that is an informed response. Like, there's, there's this military industrial complex, these people want to go to war. He doesn't talk about this UAP thing that way.

• 1:35:25Speaker 02

  Right.

• 1:35:25Joe Rogan?

  It's like, I've seen some things, crazy things. What is that, what are you saying? Like, be specific.

• 1:35:31Speaker 02

  You got handsome pilots, they, you know, crew cuts like you, they look, it's like...

• 1:35:36Joe Rogan?

  Good guys, nice guys, good Americans. Like, what, what, what, what do you know?

• 1:35:40Speaker 02

  Didn't he say something on your podcast about men from Mars? Or something? He goes, the people from Mars or something. I don't, it's hard with him because he speaks in this sing-songy, oversimplified way.

• 1:35:52Joe Rogan?

  And he rants.

• 1:35:53Speaker 02

  And he rants.

• 1:35:54Joe Rogan?

  And he, well, he's got a strong rant. Rant muscle, right? Because he does these stadium tours. Where he goes to these enormous places and he basically just works without a script. So it's like he's got a rant muscle. There's a few people like Tim Dillon is the best comedian who has a rant muscle.

• 1:36:08Speaker 02

  So good.

• 1:36:08Joe Rogan?

  He just can rant. He just like get a microphone in front of him and a subject and he knows what to say. That Trump has that muscle. He's developed that muscle over all these years of campaigning. And so it's really hard to interview him because he just essentially turns on that rant muscle when the mic's on. And you gotta like interject like, hold on, okay, but what are you saying? Like, what do you know? Like, what do you know? Like, will you release this information? Like, what? What if you found out that for sure, we have been visited? And that we are in possession of crashed UFOs that were not made by China, that were not made by Russia, they're not made by America. They're from another civilization that we don't understand. Would you tell us?

• 1:36:53Speaker 02

  What do you think he would say?

• 1:36:55Joe Rogan?

  There's a lot of information. I don't know if I could release it. I don't know if they'd let me. You know, like, I don't know what holds it back.

• 1:37:04Speaker 02

  I want to know if he's in it, like.

• 1:37:05Joe Rogan?

  Did you see Age of Disclosure?

• 1:37:07Speaker 02

  I didn't, actually.

• 1:37:08Joe Rogan?

  You should. It's really good. I mean, I don't know how you would see it right now because it's not released yet. And I don't know what they're doing as far as getting it released, but.

• 1:37:16Speaker 02

  Did you come out believing more and more skeptical? What was your?

• 1:37:20Joe Rogan?

  Both. Both with like with all of it. I think some, some is bullshit. Some of his misinformation, some of it is. They're releasing this slow trickle. Like, if it all is real. I think the strategy is to slowly get us accustomed to the concept. Just the idea that we're not alone and just get it in there. Okay, first step, first shot across the bow. 2017, New York Times. New York Times says, not of this world. Oh, my God. You know, you see the, the pictures of the gimbal and the go fast and you're like, okay, all right, now we're talking. But that's eight fucking years ago, right? Nothing real significant in eight years.

• 1:38:04Joe Rogan?

  And so then you have sightings, you have these. You know, there's different pilots, Commander Fravor, he comes out, he does podcasts, you have Ryan Graves, he comes down and does podcasts, you know, you have Lou Elizondo, everybody's talking, no one's showing you shit.

• 1:38:20Speaker 02

  Hey, yeah.

• 1:38:21Joe Rogan?

  You have Fowler, who you had on your show.

• 1:38:23Speaker 02

  I had Fowler.

• 1:38:24Joe Rogan?

  What did you think of him?

• 1:38:26Speaker 02

  I thought that, I mean, he's, they've got to show data. They have on their website, like, a container for the data, they haven't populated it yet. I want to see the data and I want to see, uh, scientists, who, they don't have to be a debunker or a skeptic, but they have to kind of go in being like, I don't know what UFOs are. Like, I don't know anything about this stuff.

• 1:38:45Joe Rogan?

  What is this?

• 1:38:46Speaker 02

  And like vetting it.

• 1:38:47Joe Rogan?

  Mm-hmm.

• 1:38:48Speaker 02

  Now, being as deep as I am in UFO research, where like, I know there's a nuclear connection. There's a great book by a guy named Robert Hastings called UFOs and Nukes, and it's like, 600 pages, and it is 167 Q-cleared ICBM security personnel, radar operators, employees at nuclear bases where they're saying they see Tic Tacs, orbs, saucers, all sorts of stuff flying around our nuclear sites, often disarming the nukes. And so, it's always tough to answer that question where you're like, what do you think of Skywatcher? I'm like, if I don't have that ontology, where like UFOs are showing up around nukes constantly, which I, I'm deep in this and they, they do, they show up all around the world. There is a, a town in Japan called Ino,

• 1:39:31Speaker 02

  which is next to the Fukushima Prefecture. Fukushima is famous for its civilian nuclear grid, which was built in the 1970s, that have a, it has a museum dedicated to UFOs in the 90s that they built. Everybody there is obsessed with UFOs. Vice did a documentary in 2020, 2022, because they are obsessed with UFOs. There are geomagnetic anomalies they found all over this mountain, uh, Sen Gon Mori there, and there are UFO researchers there and like, everybody in that town believes in UFOs. Bereluche, Argentina, 1995, uh, you have a commercial, they're famous for, again, civilian nuclear grid, uh, a commercial pilot at Aerolinas Argentinus or whatever. Famous UFO sighting, it shuts down the power at the airport and the thing has the

• 1:40:13Speaker 02

  the plane can't land and then it goes around in a circle and there are people on the on the flight who have been interviewed, it's on a YouTube video, it's pretty simple and easy to digest. Even Roswell, 1947, the largest stockpile of American nuclear weapons to date at that time, 1947. So there are all these declassified documents. In 1949, there was an emergency meeting, declassified Air Force document that is verified between Air Force Office of Special Investigations, Army Counterintelligence, Army CIC, FBI, Office of Naval Intelligence, all these guys are emergency meeting because they're freaked out at how much UFOs are showing up around nuclear sites across the US. In 1952, there's a Look magazine article where Captain Edward J. Repelt, who's kind

• 1:40:58Speaker 02

  of marginalized, pre-Blue Book really taking off with Jalen Heinecke, who I think was basically a disinfo agent. Really? I do, yeah. And he's claimed to have gotten better and kind of be, you know, like, he admitted his part in the cover-up, but then I think he kept going on with some fuckery. Interesting. Yeah. Yeah. So if you don't have that ontology, there's even, there's Vasily Alexeyev is a Russian general and in a German magazine from 2000, he's interviewed and he talks about how UFOs show up at the forefront of human ingenuity and advancement. And when we transport certain material, the UFOs show up.

• 1:41:39Speaker 02

  In Chapter 9 of The Invisible College by Jacques Vallée, he talks about the UFOs being this sort of autonomous control system. And when we, you know, it's like a node lights up, like when we engage in super advanced research or something, he talks about ways to interfere with the control system, but that are very dangerous. So if you don't have that ontology, like, yeah, me saying like, these dudes are out with their mobile construction unit, like, in the desert, like, you know, getting stuff to show up, you're gonna be like, that's a fucking Mylar balloon, I'm sorry. But because if you have that, if you accept that data set and don't just dismiss it kind of firsthand, I Do you think they can get stuff to show up? What they're getting to show up? I don't know. Can they get it to land?

• 1:42:22Speaker 02

  I don't know. They're, you know, I think-

• 1:42:25Joe Rogan?

  So can you explain how they're getting this stuff to show up? What signals are they putting out there that represent something to these? Supposedly something to these UAPs?

• 1:42:33Speaker 02

  Unfortunately, they kind of black box it. And so I have to assume it's either nuclear. They do say that they have a dog whistle, which is a certain frequency. There is a frequency floating around online that somebody claims to have docked. That might be their thing, but I don't want to say that that's definitely their thing. So there are-

• 1:42:49Joe Rogan?

  But the idea is they call them.

• 1:42:51Speaker 02

  They call them.

• 1:42:52Joe Rogan?

  They use something to send a signal out there and then these crafts respond. Is it 100% of the time?

• 1:42:58Speaker 02

  They say that the dog whistle works 100% of the time. And they have a combination of mechanical means of attracting UFOs. And of, this is really weird, but humans trying to call in the UFOs.

• 1:43:10Joe Rogan?

  I've heard that before, right?

• 1:43:11Speaker 02

  Yeah, CE5 is sort of a common-

• 1:43:13Speaker 03

  I'm not gonna post that on our show, I don't think, but is that what you're talking about? I don't want to make it-

• 1:43:17Speaker 02

  That might be, yeah, 2.5 K.

• 1:43:19Joe Rogan?

  What do you not want to make, Jamie?

• 1:43:20Speaker 03

  I don't know, do you want me to show this or not? I don't know, if you're saying it's bad, I don't want to give it-

• 1:43:24Speaker 02

  No, I'm not saying it's bad, I don't think-

• 1:43:25Joe Rogan?

  It seems like it's on Reddit.

• 1:43:27Speaker 02

  I think it's fine. I don't think-

• 1:43:28Joe Rogan?

  They'll find it on their own, then.

• 1:43:29Speaker 02

  I don't think Skywatcher would like say that that's definitely, you know, endorse that as their thing. But, because they kind of black box it, but that could be.

• 1:43:36Joe Rogan?

  Okay, so what it's saying, um, want to know how to make the dog whistle for summoning UAP? Here's how, super easy. What's the signal? Um, 7.83 Hz carrier via modulated 100 Hz bass tone. Schumann resonance, do you understand any of this?

• 1:43:54Speaker 02

  Me?

• 1:43:54Joe Rogan?

  Yeah. Do you know what they're saying?

• 1:43:56Speaker 02

  Well, I guess Schumann resonance is the kind of, you know, electromagnetic frequency of the earth itself. And so I don't know what that means, modulated via 100 Hz.

• 1:44:04Joe Rogan?

  What is this 528 Hz harmonic spiritual frequency? What is that?

• 1:44:08Speaker 03

  That's a low tone.

• 1:44:10Speaker 02

  I don't know.

• 1:44:10Joe Rogan?

  Is that what it is, Jamie?

• 1:44:11Speaker 03

  I just know the numbers, so like, uh, when you get up to 17K, that's like, that's a high. That's a real high pitch, like, wee, like a-

• 1:44:18Joe Rogan?

  Oh, and the high numbers like that are low?

• 1:44:20Speaker 03

  Yeah, and then low is, oh, so it's just a, that's thousand and then not thousand. So 20 Hz is as low as you can hear, that's like a low bass sound.

• 1:44:26Joe Rogan?

  Hmm.

• 1:44:27Speaker 03

  So I guess there's being generated out of some sort of machine, which doesn't say here on what you need to generate it. But I don't know if you just played on a piano or anything, you know?

• 1:44:35Joe Rogan?

  Interesting. And then organic, 2.5 Hz chirps every 10 seconds, like creature calls, giving it a unique signature.

• 1:44:43Joe Rogan?

  Huh.

• 1:44:44Speaker 02

  I don't know where he would get this.

• 1:44:46Joe Rogan?

  He's just gonna be a kook.

• 1:44:47Speaker 02

  Yeah, that's right.

• 1:44:48Joe Rogan?

  He needs to be a kook.

• 1:44:49Speaker 02

  There's so many kooks out there. There are a lot.

• 1:44:52Joe Rogan?

  Boy, there's so many kooks. There's so many kooks. Kooks and grifters. It's infiltrated.

• 1:44:57Speaker 02

  It's every... So my contrarian take about UFOs is there are so many kooks and grifters, but there are more people with ulterior motives who are telling partial truths than full kooks and grifters.

• 1:45:10Joe Rogan?

  Hooey.

• 1:45:12Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:45:13Speaker 02

  And that makes it so complicated because you're like, you're bad vibes and you like, are doing some controlled opposition thing, but like, I have to listen to you because you have some interesting info.

• 1:45:22Joe Rogan?

  Right. That's the problem.

• 1:45:23Speaker 02

  That's the problem.

• 1:45:24Joe Rogan?

  I've had conversations with people like that where I'm talking, I'm like, I think you're at least partially full of shit, but like, keep going.

• 1:45:30Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:45:30Joe Rogan?

  Tell me more.

• 1:45:31Speaker 02

  Yeah, totally. You're like, I know there's some stuff and then I know there's some bullshit you're giving me. And you want to see if I'll tell somebody else that bullshit and then you'll track it and like...

• 1:45:40Joe Rogan?

  Right, right, right.

• 1:45:40Speaker 02

  It's this weird game.

• 1:45:42Joe Rogan?

  Well, in the age of disclosure, one of the things they go into is that if these programs have been running and if they have been back engineering crafts that are not of this world, there's a problem with lying to Congress because misappropriation of funds. So anybody who did that is going to jail. So what they're calling for is mass amnesty. They're calling to say, hey, you know, we've got to give amnesty to these people that were involved in this program. Otherwise, we're never going to learn anything. And then there's the problem with corporations. So if you give this to Lockheed Martin, you know, what does General Electric think about that? Well, hey, you motherfuckers, how come you didn't

• 1:46:23Joe Rogan?

  include us? So then they want to sue. And then they sue the federal government for, you know, whatever, interfering with competition.

• 1:46:31Speaker 02

  I... Yes. So there are all those issues and right now, the UAP Disclosure Act is up again. It was killed by a guy named Mike Turner who has a bunch of aerospace.

• 1:46:39Joe Rogan?

  The fuck, Mike?

• 1:46:40Speaker 02

  Mike, come on, Mike Turner.

• 1:46:41Joe Rogan?

  Come on, Mike.

• 1:46:42Speaker 02

  He's out now.

• 1:46:43Joe Rogan?

  Oh, he's out.

• 1:46:44Speaker 02

  He... And guess what? He represented Dayton, Ohio, where Wright-Patterson Air Force Base is.

• 1:46:53Speaker 02

  Sorry Jamie.

• 1:46:54Joe Rogan?

  Jamie gets so excited when you'd bring up Batel and all the Ohio shit.

• 1:46:58Speaker 02

  We've gone deep. I mean, Batel is very implicated in all this stuff.

• 1:47:02Joe Rogan?

  From the 40s.

• 1:47:03Speaker 02

  From the 40s.

• 1:47:04Joe Rogan?

  From the 40s.

• 1:47:05Speaker 02

  But even the All Domain Anomalies Resolution Office, which is like the authoritative office that is, I think, the modern Blue Book. That's, you know, basically saying, "Don't look here. Like, this is all bullshit," or whatever. It's run by a guy named Sean Kirkpatrick. He has all these like atomic connections. He like worked at Oak Ridge, for God's sake. The guy that formed Arrow, upon whose recommendation Arrow was formed, is a guy named Ed Moultrie, who is Under-Secretary of Defense for Intelligence, and he was on Batel's board. And he scrubbed that from his LinkedIn. And my good friend, UAP Gerb, who has an amazing channel, he's a super-deep UFO researcher, showed that this was, it was on his resume.

• 1:47:48Speaker 02

  And then he recommends that Arrow formed. It's like the total conflict of interest. It's insane. It's insane.

• 1:47:53Joe Rogan?

  Yeah. There's so many bottlenecks to disclosure, like legal bottlenecks.

• 1:47:58Speaker 02

  Yes. Yeah.

• 1:48:00Joe Rogan?

  Especially the misappropriation of funds.

• 1:48:03Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:48:03Joe Rogan?

  I mean, how much money was involved? You must be talking about billions and billions and billions of dollars, if all these programs are real. So if they've been lying to Congress...

• 1:48:15Speaker 02

  It's on the order. It has to be on. And it's funny, a lot of modern disclosure talks about OSAP and ATIP, these programs from 2007 to 2012, kind of under the auspice of Harry Reid.

• 1:48:25Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 1:48:26Speaker 02

  And that budget was $22 million. A single F-35 costs four times that. The B-2 costs like $2 billion. Like, give me a break. The nature of reality, you're gonna spend $22 million on? So it's funny how the whole conversation is on this like... Clearly this thing to like get more civilian eyes on the issue, maybe see what they can figure out or whatever. The core program, if there is a core program, which obviously I believe there's a core program, it's on the order of that speech that you've often cited that Donald Rumsfeld made on September 10th, 2001, where he said $2 trillion was missing from the Pentagon's budget. It's shit like that, or this woman named Catherine Austin Fitz, who was just on Tucker

• 1:49:09Speaker 02

  Carlson, who was at Housing and Urban Development under George Bush 41, where she's talking about underground tunnel systems and billions of dollars missing in the budget. It is not this little 10, 20 million dollars.

• 1:49:23Joe Rogan?

  She's talking about a $21 trillion breakaway civilization that's been developed.

• 1:49:27Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:49:28Joe Rogan?

  Like, what?

• 1:49:29Speaker 02

  Yeah, and she says it at a moment. First of all, she's citing Richard Dolan, who Richard Dolan is like hardcore UFO researcher. Half that interview and Tucker Carlson doesn't know who Richard Dolan is, so it's this funny thing. And then she, and then he's like, where are the funds being used? And she goes, space. And it's like, the where? It's not being used at SpaceX is supposed to be the tip of the spear, right? SpaceX blew origin, so like, what do you mean space?

• 1:49:51Joe Rogan?

  Right. SpaceX is basically like those fucking go-karts that people send down hills with no engines.

• 1:49:59Speaker 02

  Right.

• 1:50:00Joe Rogan?

  You know what I mean? Like, what are those things called? You know those things when they have races where people, they make their own little...

• 1:50:05Speaker 02

  Like down the hill?

• 1:50:06Speaker 03

  Soapbox derby? No, no, not the, yeah.

• 1:50:08Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:50:09Speaker 03

  Soapboxes is a little...

• 1:50:10Joe Rogan?

  Soapboxes, yeah, that's what it's like. Yeah, that's what SpaceX is.

• 1:50:13Speaker 02

  Yeah, exactly. If we have any of this shit, that's what SpaceX is.

• 1:50:17Joe Rogan?

  It's using really ancient technology to achieve these results.

• 1:50:22Speaker 02

  It's business mo, it's, and I think Elon's amazing, he's single-handedly resuscitated NASA, but it is a, it is an earth-based space company.

• 1:50:31Joe Rogan?

  I think he keeps stuff secret.

• 1:50:32Speaker 02

  He does. He absolutely keeps stuff secret.

• 1:50:36Joe Rogan?

  When he tells me, there's no evidence of aliens, that like, there's something about it that just stinks. When he's saying it, I'm like, okay.

• 1:50:45Speaker 02

  So...

• 1:50:46Joe Rogan?

  Okay. I'm looking at him.

• 1:50:48Speaker 02

  Uh, yeah.

• 1:50:49Joe Rogan?

  Nothing?

• 1:50:50Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:50:51Joe Rogan?

  You don't think nothing?

• 1:50:52Speaker 03

  I'll pop something. I just want to see if Jesse's heard of this before. I found, stumbled down this when you guys were talking about some stealth project. This is an article from Wired in 1994. I looked up the guy who wrote it. He's written a bunch of articles about the black budget back then. He's talking about a guy named Steve Douglas, who through monitoring like the, I'm sorry, the communications, he heard different pilots talking about what probably is the TR-3 Black Manta.

• 1:51:19Joe Rogan?

  Hmm.

• 1:51:21Speaker 03

  And then it says he's got a picture of it. I couldn't find it anywhere online. It's nothing even close comes up to it. But it says he had a video of it, a picture. I'm assuming some people have seen it because it talks about it. Then it goes into talking more and more about how he, how he did this. And he says he's got files of them talking about all sorts of different planes at night. That you were mentioning the Mach 6 Aura when I was like, when you said that is when I found this on here.

• 1:51:46Speaker 02

  That's fascinating. I haven't seen it. There's obviously tons of rumors about the TR-3A and the TR-3B. The Belgian wave occurred around this time and it was like late 80s, early 90s. I think a lot of the triangle craft that people see are human.

• 1:52:02Joe Rogan?

  Hmm.

• 1:52:03Speaker 02

  Because it's just, it's a derivative.

• 1:52:04Joe Rogan?

  The Phoenix Lights stuff, like, because a lot of people saw it during the Phoenix Lights. They saw the triangle craft.

• 1:52:09Speaker 03

  Yeah, that's.

• 1:52:09Speaker 02

  Kurt Russell was actually flying his plane and saw the Phoenix Lights.

• 1:52:12Speaker 03

  This is the one I brought up the other day. They said they think was in Desert Storm and they just don't really have.

• 1:52:17Speaker 02

  That's wild.

• 1:52:17Speaker 03

  Any proof online today.

• 1:52:19Speaker 02

  So.

• 1:52:19Joe Rogan?

  Wow.

• 1:52:20Speaker 03

  The TR-3B is the, this looks like the triangle thing that everybody's seen.

• 1:52:23Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, like, what is the fucking center of it? What is that all about?

• 1:52:27Speaker 03

  Well, this is just probably someone made, you know, a photo trying to describe it.

• 1:52:30Joe Rogan?

  I know.

• 1:52:30Speaker 03

  The bottom of it is what everybody says, you know, those three lights.

• 1:52:34Speaker 02

  So the TR-3 series, that was built by Northrop, I believe? Is that right? Like Aurora was Lockheed and that was Aurora?

• 1:52:40Joe Rogan?

  If you confirm that. And that's what it looked like?

• 1:52:42Speaker 03

  They, no one knows. This is like, no one has any proof of these even existing. All the talk online is back into the 90s of just like, do these exist? We probably have them. No one knows for sure.

• 1:52:54Speaker 02

  So here's a weird, okay, so I think this is North, I think TR-3, the TR-3 series is Northrop. So the connection between Northrop and Townsend Brown is in the mid 60s, Townsend Brown is being funded by a guy named Floyd Odlum. Floyd Odlum is the majority owner of Northrop, pre-merger with Grumman. And so Townsend Brown is doing these experiments at Guidance Technologies, his outfit in Santa Monica. This was all, this investment was inspired by Edward Teller seeing his experiment and freaking out. He is doing these experiments. Bill Lear is actually has an office across the street. They're doing all sorts of cool innovative stuff. He does a series of presentations, Curtis LeMay for the Rand Corporation, for all sorts of kind of, you know, head honchos

• 1:53:38Speaker 02

  when it comes to American military. In 1967, Guidance Technology shuts down with no explanation. They say, you know, our results all failed. But after a bunch of the, a series of these high-level meetings, that was at the end of 1967. Three months later, at the beginning of 1968, Northrop publishes a paper called Electroaerodynamics and Supersonic Flow, or In-Supersonic Flow, and it is basically paying homage to electrohydrodynamics and Townsend-Brown's work. It is exactly, part and parcel, Townsend-Brown's work. They then do a press release at the time. They retract the press release because they are embarrassed.

• 1:54:20Speaker 02

  Then later, Bill Scott at Aviation Week in, I think, 1992 says, "The B-2 surfs its own wave using the Byfield-Brown effect." There's a guy who's known as the doyen of British aviation journalism. His name is Bill Gunston, and he, in Air International Magazine, is doing a survey-level overview of all aero-engine tech since World War II. And he says, "I'm familiar with the rudiments of Thomas Townsend-Brown's work, but I don't want to end up in the Tower of London, so I will refrain from talking about millions of volts charged positive to millions of volts charged negative on the trailing edge of the wing of the B-2 stealth bomber." What? Yes.

• 1:55:05Speaker 02

  What is the Tower of London? What's that reference to? He's just saying, "I don't want to end up in jail. Tower of London is probably where Jack the Ripper ended up, or I don't think it was like, you know." But he's like, "Don't get on my ass." "Surfs its own wave." "Surfs its own wave." So if you put that Electroaerodynamics and Supersonic Flow paper, which is available, you could put that into ChatGPT and how it could be like, "How can this confer an advantage to an airframe for..." "Let's do that." Yeah, you can do that. "Let's do that." I'll tell you what it says. "I'm excited." Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's wild. It's wild. I'll give you a bunch of answers. "Surfs its own wave." So that's the paper. Yeah.

• 1:55:41Joe Rogan?

  All right, download it then. Electro aerodynamics.

• 1:55:44Speaker 02

  So my point, if the TR3A and B are real, like the B2, the B2 is still so locked down. We sell F-35s to allied nations, Norway, Canada, you know, whatever. We don't sell B2s to anybody, even including allied nations. The ticket price is 2 billion. They have a new version of the B2 that's, you know, I think like 700 million or whatever. They weren't built at scale. They're extremely locked down. It's pretty crazy.

• 1:56:13Joe Rogan?

  Wow. So what would they be doing? Like, how would it be surfing its own wave? Like, what, what advantage would that confer?

• 1:56:22Speaker 02

  If you do this ChatGPT thing, it'll say it doesn't split the airflow as much. And so you get more lift and there's reduced drag. The shock wave is reduced. The electric fields somehow interact with the particles at the boundary layer where the, the frame hits the air. And so there are a bunch of theoretical things that are honestly probably a little above my pay grade. But that even, you know, conventional AI will tell you that it will do as far as being helped.

• 1:56:48Joe Rogan?

  Gun to head, how far do you think they've gotten this stuff?

• 1:56:52Speaker 02

  Ah, man, I mean, this stuff was being, this was like 80s and they were probably maybe building in the early 80s or maybe late 70s. So definitely way farther than that, you know?

• 1:57:02Joe Rogan?

  Do you entertain the possibility that this thing that Lazar talked about that we see on the desk right there, the sport model? Do you think that that was ours?

• 1:57:12Speaker 02

  That feels really hard for me to, to, to say in good faith because that was around the time that the BT was just being unveiled.

• 1:57:19Joe Rogan?

  Also, no seams.

• 1:57:21Speaker 02

  No seams.

• 1:57:22Joe Rogan?

  It's 3D printed.

• 1:57:22Speaker 02

  Totally.

• 1:57:23Joe Rogan?

  Element 113 or 115, rather, and this generator that nobody understands.

• 1:57:28Speaker 02

  Yeah, I'm, I think that is more of the variety of something that would crash in the New Mexico desert. That is, and this is where it gets weird because everybody wants a clean solution. Everybody wants the, the anti-gravity, the UFOs to be a cover for the anti-gravity.

• 1:57:45Joe Rogan?

  Including Lazar. Like he said, when he saw the sticker on it, there was an American flag sticker on the sport model. Like, oh, I get it. These are ours.

• 1:57:53Speaker 02

  Yep.

• 1:57:53Joe Rogan?

  That's why people keep seeing them. And then as he starts examining these things, he's like, no.

• 1:57:59Speaker 02

  Yep.

• 1:57:59Joe Rogan?

  This is not ours. Like, what the fuck is this? This is meant for three-foot-tall things.

• 1:58:03Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:58:04Joe Rogan?

  There's no controls in this. Like, what is this?

• 1:58:06Speaker 02

  If reality has a governor on it, and we're in weird territory, we're just talking about AI and all this stuff is just getting so weird, quantum computing. If reality has a governor on it, like a governor on a motor, you take the governor off. Do you get, is it like a Hydra where you cut the head off and you get five in its place? Or do you get one neat solution? You don't get one neat solution. Of course not. It's a zoo of things.

• 1:58:29Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 1:58:29Speaker 02

  And so at the time that like, the government's kind of unraveling and all these, we have all these transparency initiatives or whatever, and you get these secret science lineages. And then our apertures, our people are waking up to greater realities. The fact that the pandemic could even happen, like, is sort of so crazy. And then it makes you question, it was like, what about the Gulf of Tonkin, USS Maine, and all these things? I think all of this stuff is coming out at the same time, and it's not necessarily this neat solution where the anti-gravity just, you know, accounts for the UFOs and the aliens.

• 1:59:01Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 1:59:01Speaker 02

  And the UFOs and nuke stuff, which was happening since the 40s.

• 1:59:04Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 1:59:05Speaker 02

  Where it's like, I don't, I don't know how, I can't explain that via anti-gravity experiments.

• 1:59:11Joe Rogan?

  And then there's the question of, how many? How many different civilizations visit us?

• 1:59:16Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:59:16Joe Rogan?

  How many different things? How many different versions of these things are there? If this is like a testing ground, is it, is this open to the general public of space?

• 1:59:26Speaker 02

  Also, also not zero or one, probably zero or 100. It's probably a zoo of things.

• 1:59:31Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 1:59:32Speaker 02

  It's just the most likely thing.

• 1:59:33Joe Rogan?

  That was what was interesting about your episode that you did with Fowler, where they were documenting the different shapes. And I'm like, okay, where's the flying saucer? You don't have a flying saucer in this. How come you don't have a flying saucer? You have all these other shapes.

• 1:59:45Speaker 02

  Totally.

• 1:59:45Joe Rogan?

  You have a Tic Tac, you have a Tetris, or whatever the fuck it is.

• 1:59:49Speaker 02

  Uh huh.

• 1:59:50Joe Rogan?

  Where's the one that everybody sees?

• 1:59:52Speaker 02

  The iconic.

• 1:59:53Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:59:53Speaker 02

  Billy Myers.

• 1:59:54Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:59:54Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:59:55Joe Rogan?

  That's weird.

• 1:59:56Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:59:56Joe Rogan?

  You know?

• 1:59:57Speaker 02

  It is weird.

• 1:59:58Joe Rogan?

  Also, do you work for the CIA?

• 2:00:00Speaker 02

  I do not. I do not work for the CIA.

• 2:00:03Joe Rogan?

  Do you have to answer if I ask you? Is it like, you remember those movies where you ask a guy if they're an undercover cop? You ask them if they're a cop, they have to tell you.

• 2:00:10Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:00:10Joe Rogan?

  People really used to believe that.

• 2:00:12Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:00:12Joe Rogan?

  But it's just a fictional tool. They don't really have to tell you that they're undercover cops.

• 2:00:16Speaker 02

  They don't have to tell you, but there is, I think, there's like 122333 or whatever, where like, if you're CIA, you can't be fucking with domestic stuff, which I think they break all the fucking time. So I don't think that's a reason.

• 2:00:27Joe Rogan?

  They probably passed laws that bypassed that a long time ago.

• 2:00:30Speaker 02

  For sure. Well, I, yeah, I mean, I think they also killed JFK. This is the Baines and Lab video. There you go.

• 2:00:36Joe Rogan?

  What's really crazy is that looks remarkably similar to the design that Lazar said the generator looks like that's inside the UFO.

• 2:00:43Speaker 02

  Well, here's something crazy. Lazar says there are two different gravities, Gravity A and Gravity B. Again, I think Townsend Brown was a poor theorist, but he wrote a paper called The Structure of Space while he was at Martin Vega Corporation. By the way, Townsend Brown started working at Martin Vega the year that Skunk Works formed, which I think is very interesting. And he says in Structure of Space, there are two forms of gravity. He says there are gravity wells and gravity hills. And he talks about, he talks about how the, yeah, it's crazy. He talks about the protons in an atom outweighing the electrons. And so you get this weak positive charge for all that matter that creates a gravity well, like this inward pull, but in fact, it's sort

• 2:01:25Speaker 02

  of this electromagnetic derivative or whatever in his model. And again, I would not overindex on his theory. I think there's tons of proof that he just figured out this topological physics effect and other people figured out theory. Maybe even they just have like locally useful theories. Ryan Graves was on your show and talked about extended electrodynamics. Hal Putoff's probably the top, tip of the spear as far as a lot of theory around this exotic stuff, Sonny White, you know, other people like that. But, um, Yeah, it is interesting that you, both of these guys had two versions of gravity.

• 2:01:55Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, it's very interesting. It's very interesting. And the Lazar stuff to me, it's, if a guy's gonna be a liar like that, he's gonna tell a lot of lies.

• 2:02:05Speaker 02

  Right.

• 2:02:05Joe Rogan?

  It's not gonna be just one lie from 89.

• 2:02:08Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 2:02:09Joe Rogan?

  You know what I mean? That you basically say the same version of forever.

• 2:02:12Speaker 02

  Yeah. I mean, the, the, the other weird thing in that story is in Messengers of Deception, Jacques Vallée's book, he talks about, cause he's not a believer in Lazar, he talks about Lazar being forced to drink a liquid. And Lazar even talks about this openly, that he was forced to, to, uh, drink a liquid and it tastes like pine or something. And it, and it causes memory lapses in certain cases. So, that's also a weird factor, but there is so much, I think, my buddy Luigi, I also have a good friend named Chris Ramsey, who has an amazing UFO channel called Area 52, and he's met Lazar through Luigi. And I don't wanna blow up their spot, but they've given me a lot of ammo as far as just Lazar being at Area

• 2:02:54Speaker 02

  51 S4. And so, it's, it's so fascinating.

• 2:02:58Joe Rogan?

  So they gave him this liquid to kill his memory? What's the idea behind it?

• 2:03:02Speaker 02

  I don't know if he knew the intent. It was just drink this, or whatever. And then he said that it caused, at least in the Vallée readout, he says that it caused memory lapses. It's the quote in Messengers of Deception.

• 2:03:14Joe Rogan?

  Hmm.

• 2:03:15Speaker 02

  But, here's, this is where it gets so confusing. If you have, MKUltra was super widespread, it was deleted, you know, the church committee, or whatever. But like, it was, it was a very widespread program. What would be one of the number one use cases where you'd use MKUltra? It wouldn't necessarily be to trick somebody into saying that they saw a flying saucer. It would be around the flying saucer program to fuck with the person's memory, so that they couldn't read certain things out.

• 2:03:40Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 2:03:40Speaker 02

  So it's just this, again, it's hard to say.

• 2:03:44Joe Rogan?

  Well, then there's also weird stuff, like the large folder that was on religion.

• 2:03:49Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 2:03:49Joe Rogan?

  You know, like, how much of that is just misinformation?

• 2:03:52Speaker 02

  I think a lot of that was passage material. Because it's similar to stuff-

• 2:03:55Joe Rogan?

  Passage material? What does that mean?

• 2:03:56Speaker 02

  It's basically stuff given to somebody where it's like certain provably false things. You can track where the provably false stuff goes, or whatever. It's also a litmus test to see if they'll believe it. It's like spooky intel shit. And in 79, there's a guy named Rick Doty, who drives a guy named Paul Benowitz insane, basically. He views this vertically taking off and landing exotic craft at Kirtland Air Force Base, where there are a lot of interesting things, you know, seen. And he has shown similar things, along with Linda Moulton Howe, is taken in front of a two-way mirror, and Rick Doty, this Air Force Office of Special Investigations agent,

• 2:04:39Speaker 02

  who we know is acting in bad faith at that time, he's even come out and admitted this, shows her this thing called Project Garnet, and it is oddly similar around accelerated evolution to the stuff that they showed Lazar. Also, if you have a UFO program that's extremely compartmentalized, why, at the same time, give the person this, like, ontological model of reality while you're compartmentalizing? It doesn't make sense. So, and this is what I love about Lazar. Lazar will admit that, like, he's like, "I think a lot of that stuff could have been fake, and bullshit, and I only am relaying what I saw with regards to the craft, and I don't take any of that stuff fully at face value." So, there's Project Galileo, there's Looking Glass, you know, there are these projects that were super interesting and spooky,

• 2:05:24Speaker 02

  and I think worthy of engagement with, like, all these weird limited hangouts are, but-

• 2:05:29Joe Rogan?

  Do any of these people that supposedly had had contact with extraterrestrial entities, or interdimensional, or whatever they are, do any of these people recall a conversation where they warn us about AI?

• 2:05:45Speaker 02

  That's such a great question.

• 2:05:47Joe Rogan?

  I don't think so.

• 2:05:48Speaker 02

  I don't think so either. It's almost always nuclear.

• 2:05:51Joe Rogan?

  That seems crazy.

• 2:05:53Speaker 02

  Well, maybe.

• 2:05:54Joe Rogan?

  That seems crazy, that there, there's no discussion about you are on the verge of something truly spectacular.

• 2:06:00Speaker 02

  Maybe AI is their control system.

• 2:06:02Joe Rogan?

  Maybe they are AI.

• 2:06:03Speaker 02

  Maybe they are AI.

• 2:06:04Joe Rogan?

  Maybe AI becomes that. Maybe biological limitations need to be traversed and the best way to traverse them is to eliminate biology.

• 2:06:13Speaker 02

  We are now experimenting with computational biology. You can use things like, like this neuroscientist Carl Friston, the free energy prince. There's this company called cortical labs and I think they might play up some of their results, but they use these micro electrode plate arrays. And they program like rat cultured rat neurons to do basic computational rat tasks. And so like if that's the super base level, right? Like we're just creating the like transistors for this like new model of computation. But if you go way out into the future, you have anatomical compilers, 3D printers of bodies and you know, these things could be drone avatar. That's why when people are like, why do they crash? This could be their earth homeostasis kit that they've deployed.

• 2:06:56Speaker 02

  They're just von Neumann replicator probes meant to, you know, oversee the earth. And you know, a little node lights up when we create nuclear or like an AI thing or like.

• 2:07:05Joe Rogan?

  Well, it's also like Pasolka, you know, Diana Pasolka. She, she thinks they're donations.

• 2:07:10Speaker 02

  That's what she says. Yeah. They're called donation sites and.

• 2:07:13Joe Rogan?

  Yeah. Like, which is like, if you want accelerated evolution, like, hey, wouldn't it be cool if you guys made this? Leave the wheel, you know?

• 2:07:20Speaker 02

  Let's look over here.

• 2:07:22Joe Rogan?

  Leave this, leave that. It kind of, I mean, that's the way to get someone to think outside the box.

• 2:07:27Speaker 02

  Plant the seed. Yeah.

• 2:07:29Joe Rogan?

  I mean, you, you don't want to wait for these morons to figure out how to make this.

• 2:07:33Speaker 02

  If you were trying to accelerate technological evolution in North Sentinel Island, which has no contact with humans, what would you do? You might just airdrop a computer, figure it out, you know? And they'd be like, a computer, this is.

• 2:07:43Joe Rogan?

  I'd start with a lighter.

• 2:07:45Speaker 02

  Sure. Yeah. Yeah. A computer might be a little advanced.

• 2:07:48Joe Rogan?

  Yeah. But yeah, you would give them some stuff.

• 2:07:51Speaker 02

  Yep.

• 2:07:51Joe Rogan?

  Yeah. And let them figure out how to make that stuff and give them the raw materials to make that stuff.

• 2:07:56Speaker 02

  Totally.

• 2:07:57Joe Rogan?

  Especially if you, like, you have some complex alloy, like this bismuth, whatever the hell it is with layered, like. Find that, figure that out.

• 2:08:05Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:08:05Joe Rogan?

  Can you make it?

• 2:08:06Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:08:07Joe Rogan?

  You know, you get your best scientist and you compartmentalize it, you do it over decades because you really can't open it up. And this is one of the things that Lizar said that he had deep frustration about while working at S4 is that you can't do science like that where everything's compartmentalized. You need to be able to open it up to collaboration.

• 2:08:24Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:08:25Joe Rogan?

  There was, you couldn't collaborate, you weren't allowed to.

• 2:08:27Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:08:28Joe Rogan?

  So it's like, we're not gonna get anywhere. Okay, we're gonna bring in new people.

• 2:08:31Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:08:31Joe Rogan?

  You know, we're gonna bring in a new guy, see if this new genius can, hey, what do you think of this? Like, what is it? You tell me.

• 2:08:37Speaker 02

  That could be a part of what's happening with disclosure where if you have Cold War era secrecy, it's like if we're ahead of Russia and China, clamp down. We like, can't let them know anything.

• 2:08:49Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 2:08:49Speaker 02

  But then all of a sudden, maybe they play catch up. And then all of a sudden, maybe you have this archaic cargo cult system that doesn't work anymore to avoid FOIA requests where you have restricted data covering, you know, material found by specific aerospace corporations that aren't even our best and brightest when it comes to our defense primes anymore or whatever.

• 2:09:11Joe Rogan?

  Right, right.

• 2:09:12Speaker 02

  And you're, you're at the top of the national security pie and you're like, holy shit, like, we need to update this stuff. So we need to broaden the surface area without giving away the crown jewels. We need some disclosure on these things. You can't, it is maladaptive from a national security standpoint to have some STEM student in Kentucky who's a prodigy to not even think this shit is real.

• 2:09:31Joe Rogan?

  Right, right, right. And then you're dealing with China where they've got it completely opened up and they're like, make this.

• 2:09:37Speaker 02

  Completely opened up and like, I don't know if you've read, there's a great Chinese science fiction novel called The Three Body Problem.

• 2:09:44Joe Rogan?

  Great show on Netflix.

• 2:09:45Speaker 02

  It's amazing. And the CCP will show up at your door and say, come work for us. You are working here. And that's not really the way we do things. So the way we do things is like, you get the stuff out and these kind of partial, limited hangout thing, you go, go compete, like, just like the AI stuff.

• 2:10:00Joe Rogan?

  Right, right.

• 2:10:01Speaker 02

  It's like, see what happens.

• 2:10:03Joe Rogan?

  Over there, if you leak it, they'll just fucking kill you.

• 2:10:05Speaker 02

  Exactly.

• 2:10:06Joe Rogan?

  You're not gonna leak it.

• 2:10:07Speaker 02

  No, yeah, yeah.

• 2:10:09Joe Rogan?

  It's, it's to me, the, the question of civilization, are we alone? It is the question. And I don't think we are.

• 2:10:19Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:10:19Joe Rogan?

  That's my, my, my gut instinct. I don't think we are. It seems so ridiculous when people do think we are.

• 2:10:26Speaker 02

  I agree.

• 2:10:26Joe Rogan?

  I just, but what about the numbers? Just the sheer numbers? Like, it doesn't make any sense that this is so unique that we, in this one very tiny planet, it's spinning around a not-so-special star.

• 2:10:40Speaker 02

  Occam's razor is we are not alone. You have the Fermi paradox, you have the Drake equation.

• 2:10:45Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 2:10:46Speaker 02

  You have all these sort of rationalist ways of arguing that, but also, look at, there's a great book called The Half-Life of Facts by Sam Arbesman, and he talks about how like, at any given time, 50% of, you know, received knowledge, like our, our physical model of the universe, is wrong. So you can say, "Those things are showing up in the sky." That is wrong because physics. But historically, you would have been wrong. Like, that's crazy. It's a bad point, right? And so if you actually look at, you know, whether we're alone or not, modern Enlightenment history is a detour from the past. If you look at every culture, whether it's Iamblichus, or, or maybe a better example is medieval Christianity with St. Thomas Aquinas, or just read the New Testament.

• 2:11:29Speaker 02

  Like, a multitude of angels. You have angels and demons. You know, that's kind of the passport to Magonia, Dionysos, American cosmic thesis. Like, this stuff has been going on forever. You look at the, the devas and, you know, in, in Hindu culture, or the Jinn in, in Islamic culture. Like, we are outnumbered in our modern, you know, Enlightenment rational skeptic epistemology.

• 2:11:51Joe Rogan?

  Yeah. We really are. And how many depictions from the past of flying things? Ezekiel from the Bible, the manas, all these different, like, what are they saying? What are these things? Like, what do you think that stuff is? Like, what is it?

• 2:12:06Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:12:08Joe Rogan?

  And, but then again, you and I, neither one of us has had an experience. So we're, we're just like fucking peeing in the wind.

• 2:12:14Speaker 02

  I've seen, I've seen a UFO.

• 2:12:16Joe Rogan?

  What have you seen?

• 2:12:17Speaker 02

  I've seen, actually a few, but, um.

• 2:12:19Joe Rogan?

  Really?

• 2:12:19Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah.

• 2:12:20Joe Rogan?

  How have you been so lucky?

• 2:12:22Speaker 02

  I don't know. I don't know.

• 2:12:23Joe Rogan?

  It's because they know.

• 2:12:24Speaker 02

  And I, and I, they're like, who knows? They're UFO researchers that like, don't like to talk about this, but I think the move is just be honest. Like, I've seen the thing and I don't know what to say. Uh, I was in Laurel Canyon where I used to live and um, I saw a thing that looked like a fucking school bus. It looked like, like no visible propulsion, this like sort of low humming noise or whatever. It was maybe 50, 60, 70 feet high, like above the tree, right above the treetops. Uh, the, the trippiest part of the experience and why this is, it's just so weird is I was with um, this woman I was kind of dating at the time, and we were taking a walk in Laurel Canyon. And uh, she was like, uh, are you into aliens?

• 2:13:07Speaker 02

  I was like, actually, I kinda am into that. I was kinda interested in that topic. And, and then I think I joked back, I was like, I kinda wanna meet an alien. And she was like, me too. And then she goes, uh, you'll, you'll meet them when you're, when you stop looking for them.

• 2:13:21Joe Rogan?

  Oh, that bitch is an alien.

• 2:13:24Speaker 02

  And then as we're, as we're, this is the weirdest part of the whole story. As we're walking, it's like sunset in Laurel Canyon. We walk by a guy with a metal detector who's like, looking for something. Or it's like, why are you looking for something at sunset in Laurel Canyon or whatever? So like, that felt like this weird like, you know, like mirroring of our conversation. I, again, I have no fucking idea. Then we walk in, into this little clearing and we see this like, school bus thing like, just go right over the treetop.

• 2:13:51Joe Rogan?

  What color was it?

• 2:13:52Speaker 02

  It was silver metallic.

• 2:13:55Joe Rogan?

  Like an airstream trailer.

• 2:13:57Speaker 02

  Like an air, like an airstream trailer, yeah. I can send you guys a video. I went on Chris Ramsey's podcast, I described it and I was sent a video and for all I know, this video is fucking fake, by the way. But it was the thing that looked most like what I saw. Because it doesn't match up with like the saucer, you know, triangle thing.

• 2:14:16Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 2:14:17Speaker 02

  And I don't know, I am almost more inclined to say discount my own thing over like the queue cleared guys who've like seen these things at nuclear.

• 2:14:25Joe Rogan?

  How long was it in the sky for?

• 2:14:27Speaker 02

  It was in the sky for like a few seconds because we couldn't even see past the clearing or whatever. She said she saw it go over the trees and then descend down into the distance. I did not see that.

• 2:14:40Joe Rogan?

  Huh.

• 2:14:41Speaker 02

  And like, you're talking, Laurel Canyon has, is like mostly residential, so like, like where did it descend?

• 2:14:45Joe Rogan?

  Right, right.

• 2:14:48Joe Rogan?

  So what else have you seen? You said you saw more than one thing?

• 2:14:50Speaker 02

  Yeah, so another time, I was actually with a friend who invests like with me and Peter and is like the most rational guy you'll ever meet. Like, he's a, he's a fan of like Noam Chomsky and like David Hume, like, like he is a modern rationalist atheist skeptic. And we went surfing that day, we were back at his place. I was super into holotropic breathwork at the time, which I love. And we were doing holotropic breathwork, five minutes in, we both see these like metallic looking orbs. This was, this time, super high up in the, in the, in the sky, like, probably, you know, higher than what you would, definitely way higher than a drone.

• 2:15:29Speaker 02

  And one's bobbing above him, one's bobbing above me, similar to like the typical like orb that, you know, a lot of people sort of describe, like the Mosul orb or whatever, you know, a lot of these sightings. And he looks at me and I go like, what the fuck is that? He goes, dude, I think that's like some secret black Lockheed tech or whatever. And then I don't even say anything. Two seconds goes by and then he looks at me and he goes, dude, that's not fucking from here. He's like, that's not Lockheed, like, I don't know what that is.

• 2:15:59Joe Rogan?

  Do you entertain the possibility that there's states of consciousness that you could achieve where these things become visible?

• 2:16:05Speaker 02

  Absolutely, and you've had Rick Strassman on. He talks about, you know, DMT, the spirit molecule. He talks about DMT as like night vision. Or like, like, it's like, it's like goggles or a window. You know, it's like Aldous Huxley, The Doors of Your Perception. Are you super imposing a hallucination onto reality? Or are you just seeing, we see a limited part of the electromagnetic wave spectrum. We see between 400 and 700 nanometers. Our audio range, you know, there's a certain decibel limit, right? So like, when you take a substance like that, are you seeing things that are in objective reality? But we just don't have access to them. And it's, it's actually adaptive for us not to have access to them in our waking reality. And so it's this interesting philosophical question.

• 2:16:50Speaker 02

  I don't know the answer to it.

• 2:16:52Joe Rogan?

  Right, would we even be able to function if we had access to that? Probably not.

• 2:16:57Speaker 02

  Probably not. No, it is, there's a guy named Donald Hoffman, who's a cognitive psychologist, and he talks about, it's like, why don't we see electromagnetic waves themselves? Like, why aren't you seeing Hertz frequencies?

• 2:17:09Joe Rogan?

  Right, right, yeah.

• 2:17:09Speaker 02

  It's, we need to iconize everything we see, just like a, you know, desktop computer. You know, like, why do you see red? Because, oh, boom, red, blood, gotta run, you know, whatever. And then they hack that with notifications on social media. But the point is, we are seeing inherently a collapsed condensed version of reality. We aren't seeing the thing itself.

• 2:17:28Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 2:17:29Speaker 02

  And so it ends up in these ontological loops where like, yeah, some rationalist skeptic can be like, you're, you're lying, that's flawed. It ends up in this not even wrong category of like, I can't say that what I just said is definitively true as far as it being a window into some other realm, but neither, the skeptic, we just live in the age of disenchantment where you say, don't trust your eyes.

• 2:17:49Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 2:17:49Speaker 02

  And that's as much faith-based dogma as what I'm saying. So, who knows? And that's why I rest, when I talk about this stuff on the show, I rest more on the nuclear cases because it fits to our modern epistemology more.

• 2:18:04Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 2:18:04Speaker 02

  But it's not to say you should discount these, you know, people's experiences where they do, you know, maybe they're in a peak state of consciousness and they experience the thing. Maybe that thing is real.

• 2:18:12Joe Rogan?

  Either, there might be multiple different types of things that come by. And the nuclear one is a weird one. I mean, if you were from another planet or some other place and you recognize an emerging civilization that had nuclear capabilities, you'd be like, hey, fuckers, slow down, hit the brakes, son, you know?

• 2:18:31Speaker 02

  You would freak out.

• 2:18:32Joe Rogan?

  Unquestionably, you know? That's why we named the rooms at the comedy mothership, Fat Man and Little Boy, because that's when they started showing up. That's when we got a lot of sightings, was post, post the bombs.

• 2:18:43Speaker 02

  Totally, and I love, I love the mothership, by the way, it's amazing. And I love going and seeing how UFOs, like, you know, in preparation for this, I've had a couple of friends be like, Man, Joe's like anti UFO though. I'm like, no, he's just frustrated with disclosure. Go to the mothership. The whole fucking thing is

• 2:19:02Joe Rogan?

  How can anybody say I'm anti UFO? This fucking UFOs everywhere. There's one on the desk, there's one behind me.

• 2:19:08Speaker 02

  I know.

• 2:19:09Joe Rogan?

  That's so silly.

• 2:19:09Speaker 02

  And you broke the biggest UFO story of all time. Like it's, you've done more for disclosure than anybody, in my opinion.

• 2:19:16Joe Rogan?

  Well, I'm not anti UFO, but I'm, I'm allergic to bullshit and this stuff, some of it smells like bullshit, which is, I would be remiss if we didn't talk about those little mummies in Peru.

• 2:19:26Speaker 02

  Yeah, dude.

• 2:19:27Joe Rogan?

  What do you think is going on there?

• 2:19:29Speaker 02

  They break my brain. They were, they are, they are, this was the most frustrating case I've ever had to deal with, and I wish I could give you a definitive, these things are definitely dead aliens. I cannot say that definitively a- at all. I do think there's a lot of reason to believe that they are forensically organisms. They are, they're organisms that they-

• 2:19:52Joe Rogan?

  If they're not, they're incredible works of art.

• 2:19:54Speaker 02

  If they're not, they're the most sophisticated hoax ever. That, that basically tricked forensic experts from John McDowell, who run, he just won the, the greatest award in forensics you could win, or whatever. The Grand Wall Award, who is the president of the American Forensics Scientific Association, or whatever, in the US. Jim Caruso, who's the medical examiner, chief medical examiner in Denver. The equivalent of McDowell is a guy named Dr. David Ruiz, so he's the Peruvian head of their forensics association. And the head of the Mexican Navy Forensics, this guy named Dr. Jose Salzay. All of these guys have seen, so-

• 2:20:33Joe Rogan?

  I think we're gonna get in ahead of ourselves. Let's explain to people this, so they can be standalone, because a lot of people are like, what the fuck are they blabbing about? There are these very small, mummified looking things that are in Peru that seem to look exactly like a-

• 2:20:53Joe Rogan?

  Similar kind of thing to a human being, but varies enough that you know it's not us. And it has more ribs, it has more spinal columns, or more, more, um, more discs. This is what they look like. And there's x-rays of them, and that's where it gets really weird. And they're tridactyl, right? So they have three fingers and three toes.

• 2:21:14Speaker 02

  Yep. And the, so, these were discovered in 2015 in a cave, uh, by a guy named Leandro, who goes by Mario. And this is one of the headaches about the case, is like, we don't have good provenance on it. So he is this Waquero, uh, gravedigger guy. And they were found in diatomaceous earth. So there's actually an idea that they might not even be mummies. Diatomaceous earth is a desiccant, and so they were dried out. And a lot of the organs are actually still inside the, the bodies. And there are three different types. There are S-types, which are these little winged creatures. There are J-types. The J-types are probably, they were most popularized in this Mexican congress, where these things were outed in September of 2023. Where, um, they look like almost Close Encounters.

• 2:21:59Speaker 02

  Jamie, if you scroll down, like, you see that peruse congress, like, right there? Like, that thing looks like this, like, jokey, like, Close Encounters of the Third Kind, like.

• 2:22:07Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, it looks totally fake.

• 2:22:08Speaker 02

  It looks totally fake, right? So that's, those are the J-types. They're like 25-ish, maybe 25 to 30 of those.

• 2:22:14Joe Rogan?

  But then those are the ones that they've x-rayed, and that's where it gets really weird.

• 2:22:16Speaker 02

  The weirdest ones that I was talking about, the forensics people kind of evaluating, are these M-types. These are like four to five feet. They look pretty anatomically consistent.

• 2:22:29Joe Rogan?

  Have you seen them in person?

• 2:22:30Speaker 02

  I have.

• 2:22:31Joe Rogan?

  Really?

• 2:22:32Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:22:32Joe Rogan?

  And what, what was your feeling?

• 2:22:34Speaker 02

  My feeling was, ah, it was this-

• 2:22:36Joe Rogan?

  Pick two of those images up, please.

• 2:22:38Speaker 02

  It was, as with a lot of these things, oscillating between, holy shit, this thing is not from here. And then, dude, you have to, like, chill, and like, there are so many other things, you know, there are so many other gates this has to get through for us to, to actually, you know, verify this stuff.

• 2:22:55Joe Rogan?

  See if you can get that, go the x-rays, Jamie. Find the images from the x-rays. That, that's one, but there's one that's a little bit better, because it's one of the fetal position. Um, it's, uh-

• 2:23:05Speaker 02

  Jamie, in my document, actually.

• 2:23:07Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, look at that one.

• 2:23:08Speaker 02

  Okay, there you go. So that one has eggs inside of it.

• 2:23:12Joe Rogan?

  What?

• 2:23:13Speaker 02

  If you go.

• 2:23:14Joe Rogan?

  What?

• 2:23:15Speaker 02

  Yeah. Montserrat.

• 2:23:18Joe Rogan?

  Look at its hips.

• 2:23:18Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:23:20Joe Rogan?

  How weird.

• 2:23:20Speaker 02

  So if you go to, yeah, if you go to.

• 2:23:22Joe Rogan?

  Montserrat?

• 2:23:23Speaker 02

  Montserrat Clip, yeah. So this, this one's pregnant and has what they are claiming to be a tridactyl fetus inside of it. Yeah.

• 2:23:33Joe Rogan?

  How many of these do they have?

• 2:23:35Speaker 02

  So they have eight to 10 of these M types, these kind of most realistic looking ones.

• 2:23:40Joe Rogan?

  Eight to 10?

• 2:23:41Speaker 02

  Eight to 10. And then they have 25 to 30 of the J types. So, yeah, look at that. That's a, that's a 3D reconstruction of the CAT scan.

• 2:23:51Joe Rogan?

  So they have teeth. That's weird.

• 2:23:53Speaker 02

  They have teeth.

• 2:23:54Joe Rogan?

  Right?

• 2:23:54Speaker 02

  Yeah. They have, they have tendons, they have bones, they have cartilage, they have organs. And so, and then, so this is where we need to verify stuff. They even have, actually.

• 2:24:02Joe Rogan?

  Could you go back to the part of the video where, what's that? Yeah, that part.

• 2:24:07Speaker 02

  They have.

• 2:24:08Joe Rogan?

  What the fuck is that, man? That's crazy.

• 2:24:10Speaker 02

  They have osmium and cadmium implants in them, which are rare earth metals that were discovered in the 19th century.

• 2:24:16Joe Rogan?

  If this is art, if someone made this, I need to buy one.

• 2:24:23Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 2:24:24Joe Rogan?

  You need to tell me how much this costs. I need to put it on my table because you're a genius. If you've made that and you tricked everybody into thinking that that's real, you're a goddamn genius and you shouldn't just be hoaxing people.

• 2:24:34Speaker 02

  Well.

• 2:24:35Joe Rogan?

  So then the alternative is that's real. If that's real, that's completely insane.

• 2:24:39Speaker 02

  Joe, fortunately and unfortunate, fortunately for you maybe, but unfortunately for the case, these wakeros, these gravediggers are selling some of these things on the black market. And this case is the wild, wild west. It is so.

• 2:24:53Joe Rogan?

  How much? How much can I get one for?

• 2:24:55Speaker 02

  I've heard seven figures.

• 2:24:57Joe Rogan?

  Seven figures?

• 2:24:58Speaker 02

  I've heard a lot of money.

• 2:25:00Joe Rogan?

  Jeez Louise.

• 2:25:01Speaker 02

  But.

• 2:25:02Joe Rogan?

  Is Peter Thiel buying one of these? Don't say yes.

• 2:25:07Joe Rogan?

  Look at that thing.

• 2:25:08Speaker 02

  It's wild.

• 2:25:09Joe Rogan?

  It's so crazy.

• 2:25:09Speaker 02

  But there are serious problems. I want to caveat all of this and like, you know, I don't want to be overly sensationalist about this. If it's a hoax, it's the best hoax ever. It is the best. My friend, Michael Mazzola, who like, kind of rolled the red carpet down, allowed me to even see these things. He's making a video, making a documentary on this that's coming out this August and it's called "This is Not a Hoax." I told him to put in parentheses, "Or this is the most sophisticated hoax ever."

• 2:25:36Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 2:25:37Speaker 02

  Because the DNA testing sucks. There's no signal, the signal to noise ratio sucks on the DNA.

• 2:25:43Joe Rogan?

  How come?

• 2:25:44Speaker 02

  Because there was probably human contamination. Like, the NCBI, which is this like biotech repository where you have a lot of this genetic information on two of the bodies, Victoria and Maria, this is all publicly available. They've done analysis on this and like, the camp that is very pro, you know, these being alien, is this guy Jaime Masan and he is, I actually think he's awesome. I love him. He's like this former 60 Minutes guy in Mexico and he's paid a lot of money to protect a lot of these bodies. He's very open about like, "We just need more scientific research." You know, he wants more eyes on this thing. But some of the genetics,

• 2:26:28Speaker 02

  you know, some of the genetics researchers that they're basing the stuff on, I spoke to one of them. This guy's name is Dr. Ricardo Ronhel. And he's a biologist. I don't think he's actually a geneticist. And his belief is like, he was like, this is, you know, there's 30% of this is like, unknown DNA that we don't know. And then in the 70%, you have mitochondrial DNA from Myanmar and then you have DNA from a parasite in Africa. And you also have bonobos and chimpanzee DNA, which means it was an ancient primate. That held this DNA, because it was before they phylogenetically split off.

• 2:27:08Speaker 02

  So what he's saying, and this is crazy, is he was saying that like a hominid species, an early hominid species, went from Asia to Africa. And because there are some theories that they actually, you know, East Africa is not like the first hominid species, maybe it was East Asia. So it's already like, kind of requiring some leaps of logic, or whatever. And then had sex with this like primate thing, and you end up with this hybrid. And then, another leap of logic is that before Pizarro and all the conquistadors, like, there's actually like transmission of, you know, beings from Africa to South America. I don't believe that. That's, it's crazy. It's like saying that, you know, the Pangolin theory is better than the, you know, the Wuhan

• 2:27:52Speaker 02

  lab leak theory, which is just like Occam's razor, that's not real.

• 2:27:55Joe Rogan?

  Well, we do know that there were other types of hominids that coexisted with human beings.

• 2:28:00Speaker 02

  Denisovans.

• 2:28:01Joe Rogan?

  Yeah. The Flores people, the Hobbit people. What, what is the carbon dating on these things?

• 2:28:09Speaker 02

  Carbon dating ranges from 700 years ago, which would actually be Incan. That would be, because Incan started in like 1450. And then, all the way down to 800, 1800 years ago, which is the Nazca people.

• 2:28:23Joe Rogan?

  That's what's fascinating, because, you know, there's this, there's this mystery of the Hobbit people, right? Where they, they didn't really think that that was, there's a lot of speculation that it was some bizarre type of human being that was deformed and tiny. And then they realized like, no, this is a specific branch of the human chain, just like Denisovan, just like Neanderthal. There's a thing called the orang pendek. Have you ever heard of that?

• 2:28:53Speaker 02

  No, what is that?

• 2:28:54Joe Rogan?

  They think, I believe it's Indonesia, and maybe Vietnam, where people talk about these little tiny hairy people that live in the jungle.

• 2:29:02Speaker 02

  Whoa.

• 2:29:03Joe Rogan?

  And so, these Flores things, there's, there's a few biologists that believe these things are still alive.

• 2:29:10Speaker 02

  Interesting.

• 2:29:10Joe Rogan?

  They think even on the island of Flores, they might still be alive.

• 2:29:13Speaker 02

  What?

• 2:29:14Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 2:29:14Speaker 02

  Are you serious?

• 2:29:15Joe Rogan?

  Right. So if they're alive, if this turns out to be true, like let's imagine it is, because there's been things like the coelacanth, which they thought were extinct for millions of years, and then they caught one, and they're like, oh my god, this is a prehistoric fish and still alive, and now they know that there's a population of them, but this is the deep ocean, right? Much less explored. But when you look at Indonesia, when you look at Flores, the island of Flores, look at all these places, like, you're talking about insanely dense vegetation that is virtually uninhabited.

• 2:29:48Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:29:49Joe Rogan?

  So, maybe. Like, and these things used to live on that island, for sure. We've got bones, we know they lived, we know they used tools, we know they probably had language, they lived on that island. They might still be alive. So, we didn't know about these things, and I think, was it the 90s, I think, when they discovered them? Denisovans, I think, was like 2010, and then this new species, the big-headed people, were they Julian's? What were they called? Yeah. That's it? That's like, a few months ago.

• 2:30:20Speaker 02

  Right.

• 2:30:20Joe Rogan?

  They found these.

• 2:30:21Speaker 02

  Right.

• 2:30:22Joe Rogan?

  And this is another type of human being. So, what, what are the odds that there's some three-footed, three-toed thing that existed a few thousand years ago?

• 2:30:33Speaker 02

  And there are pictoglyphs all over the region, both in Nazca and Pulpa in southern Peru.

• 2:30:40Joe Rogan?

  So this is one that looks fake as fuck. But this guy is driving in his motorcycle, and he's filming, and he claims that he got this thing running away.

• 2:30:50Speaker 02

  No way, a little hairy thing?

• 2:30:52Joe Rogan?

  Yeah. You could see, as he's riding his motorcycle, this thing like darts across the road in front of him.

• 2:31:00Speaker 02

  Wow.

• 2:31:00Joe Rogan?

  And this is a few years ago, too, where, you know, CGI sucked. So there it is. You could see it real briefly for a second, it just runs across the road, look at that.

• 2:31:11Speaker 02

  Oh my god.

• 2:31:12Joe Rogan?

  What is that?

• 2:31:13Speaker 02

  Right.

• 2:31:13Joe Rogan?

  I don't know. But if this thing did exist at one point in time, I mean, god damn, it looks good.

• 2:31:19Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:31:20Joe Rogan?

  If it did exist at one point in time, and people do see it all the time, there might be a small population of them that are still alive. That thing, the x-ray of it, or the MRI, the CAT scan, looked human, but weird.

• 2:31:35Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 2:31:36Joe Rogan?

  But the teeth and the jaw, it looked like a deformed human.

• 2:31:38Speaker 02

  And it is important to note that there were skull elongation rituals going on as early as the Paracas people, which were pre the Nasca people.

• 2:31:48Joe Rogan?

  And what were they imitating?

• 2:31:49Speaker 02

  That's the interesting question. The Nasca lines, why are they making, they, it's probably humans that made these things, but they're things that only make sense from an aerial view.

• 2:31:57Joe Rogan?

  And they're miles long.

• 2:31:59Speaker 02

  And they're miles long.

• 2:32:00Joe Rogan?

  What are you doing?

• 2:32:01Speaker 02

  And there are pictoglyphs, you know, cave art, all over the region with three-fingered beings, with tridactyl beings.

• 2:32:08Joe Rogan?

  Are there really?

• 2:32:09Speaker 02

  There are, and this is the weirdest thing. There's a guy named Thierry Amin, who is like the first Westerner, he's this French, kind of, he's an amazing archaeologist and explorer, and he was the first guy that met Leandro, the gravedigger who found the bodies to begin with. He, Kalki is the, actually like, local dialect there that's spoken. He says that the name of the general region means laboratory for insemination and cloning.

• 2:32:41Joe Rogan?

  What?

• 2:32:42Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:32:43Joe Rogan?

  What?

• 2:32:43Speaker 02

  Yeah, in Kalki, yeah.

• 2:32:45Joe Rogan?

  What?

• 2:32:45Speaker 02

  So like, I have, I need to corroborate this, like, I don't have the skills to do that, but like, that's what he says. It's crazy.

• 2:32:52Joe Rogan?

  What the fuck, man?

• 2:32:54Speaker 02

  I know, but then.

• 2:32:55Joe Rogan?

  Holy shit.

• 2:32:56Speaker 02

  Why this case is such a headache is like, there's this guy Steve Mera, who I think is a totally, he's a UFO researcher, he's the, one of the less mushy-brained UFO researchers, there's a lot of mushy-brained UFO researchers, really smart guy, I've like quoted him a lot of my other videos, and he's like, we looked at one of the M-types, one of the bigger ones that like, I'm still holding out hope for, cause like, I'd love it to be real. And he said that he did genetic analysis on two of the phalanges, and one came back male, one came back female. And so he was like, I think they were constructed. But I'm like, how do you get by these forensic experts? So it's this weird, it's just, the DNA stuff, you don't get a good signal. And the reason that nobody even cared, this is the most interesting paleoarchaeological case today, in my opinion. The reason that people don't even care is

• 2:33:41Speaker 02

  because in 2023, when these were popularized by Jaime Masan, where he rolled out this J-type Josefina, the one that looked like kind of Close Encounters of the Third Kind, in front of the Mexican Congress. This guy named Manuel Caseras, who was an artist, who was making renditions of the things with like woods and sticks and stuff glued together. He was apprehended at the airport by the chief Peru prosecutor, this guy named Flavio Estrada. And Reuters picked this up, saying, "This is all fake because of these fake..." And I have this in this documentary that I'm coming out with, where he goes, "This was art." Yeah, we dub it, but he goes, "This was art." It's crazy.

• 2:34:20Joe Rogan?

  So that's the signals crossed.

• 2:34:22Speaker 02

  The signals crossed. And I think if there's anything about this case, it's like, "Let's get our best and brightest on it and figure it out." I think we could figure it out quickly if we had the right research. And there are all these Interpol laws, like you can't move the bodies from Peru.

• 2:34:36Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 2:34:36Speaker 02

  It's crazy.

• 2:34:37Joe Rogan?

  Well, even if it's just a different branch of the human chain, I mean, that just if that's a different branch off the human tree, that's fascinating enough.

• 2:34:46Speaker 02

  I agree.

• 2:34:46Joe Rogan?

  That there's like three-fingered, three-toed people that live?

• 2:34:49Speaker 02

  Totally.

• 2:34:50Joe Rogan?

  With a weird-shaped head?

• 2:34:51Speaker 02

  And if you find if the there is phenotypic inheritance, where you find that the tridactyl being inside Montserrat's belly is also tridactyl, then at what point do you go, "This is the..." How can you hoax that? How can you hoax that? That's crazy.

• 2:35:06Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 2:35:07Speaker 02

  So, and he's Zalce, who by the way, is the head of the Mexican medical navy. He was thrown in jail for supporting this case, because they were like, "We don't want to be associated with this." And now the new secretary of the Navy in Mexico has brought him back. And he's sort of being vindicated. But he is like, I was like, "Jose, like if you showed this catskin image of the baby tridactyl to any normal doctor, they didn't know anything about the case, would they say it had three fingers?" He goes, "Yes." So if that's the case, I think that is a big deal. But then you have the Steve Mirra thing. And so I just, I don't want to come out fully, you know, I don't know.

• 2:35:44Joe Rogan?

  Of course, of course, of course. But... I mean, how much evidence would there be? This is the problem with fossils, right? Because when things die, they don't really create fossils unless it's a very extraordinary instance. You know, like something unusual has to occur. You gotta get trapped in mud.

• 2:36:02Speaker 02

  Right.

• 2:36:03Joe Rogan?

  You know, that's how, so, most of the things that have lived, we don't have fossils of. Which is, if this thing was a small percentage, or a small population, small percentage of the, the living humans, and some of them are like that, and they just died off, like 500 years ago, 1,000 years ago.

• 2:36:21Speaker 02

  And these ones got saved because they were around a diatomaceous earth mine, which preserved their organs and their whole body.

• 2:36:26Joe Rogan?

  Just from an anthropology perspective, that should be the most fascinating thing. But it's got the stink of a hoax on it, so people don't want to go and study it.

• 2:36:33Speaker 02

  Yeah, I, total, the, part of what I almost want to do is like a nature of reality fund that I tie to the show. Where I'm like, I, I see so many cases like this where I'm like, if we just had some money. And it's like so important for humanity, right? And it's like nonprofit, it's just, let's just pay to get the best people. I think, like, one of the problems with modernity is like, the smartest people are working on the dumbest problems. We're building 15 billion dollar particle accelerators, people are stuck in string theory, we're like debating all this dumb shit, and you have these things, I don't know if they're real. You can debunk it, fine, but if they're real, and it's not 0% that they're real, according to these forensic experts, let's pour some resources into it.

• 2:37:15Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, it might be real. They look real.

• 2:37:19Speaker 02

  They look kinda real.

• 2:37:20Joe Rogan?

  They look very real.

• 2:37:22Speaker 02

  And when I was in person, I was freaking, I was like, what the fuck?

• 2:37:25Joe Rogan?

  Like I said, if that's art, whoever made it is fucking incredible. If that's art, you, you'd have to have a really deep understanding of anatomy and then alter it.

• 2:37:36Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:37:36Joe Rogan?

  And then make it uniform, so you do multiple versions of these things? Go back to that image again, Jamie, the one you just showed me? Look at that head, man.

• 2:37:45Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 2:37:46Joe Rogan?

  That looks like a fucking alien.

• 2:37:48Speaker 02

  It totally looks like, you know. The one other weird wrench that I, we should mention is there's a proteomics expert, who wants to remain anonymous, because I think he doesn't want to be associated with the stigma of this case. He looked at some proteins from an isolated skull of the J-types. Now, I don't think the J-types, the things that were rolled out from the Mexican Congress, are necessarily real. I think maybe they were made in homage to these things that do look more real. And he found alpaca proteins on them. And so, that's an important, another important point that, you know, is a little fly in the ointment here.

• 2:38:24Joe Rogan?

  So, somebody probably made fake ones, too. But if there's a market where you can get seven figures for a real one, of course, someone's gonna make some fake ones.

• 2:38:33Speaker 02

  Knock it off.

• 2:38:34Joe Rogan?

  100%.

• 2:38:35Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:38:36Joe Rogan?

  But, at the end of the day, like, what is that? And why do they have three fingers? And the Lazar craft, didn't it have, like, some sort of an indentation for hands?

• 2:38:46Speaker 02

  It did, yeah.

• 2:38:47Joe Rogan?

  And didn't have three fingers?

• 2:38:49Speaker 02

  Oh, I didn't know, did it? That would be wild, I don't know.

• 2:38:53Joe Rogan?

  I think it did.

• 2:38:54Speaker 02

  Oh, my God.

• 2:38:55Joe Rogan?

  I think it did. And I think it was really small, just like these things are.

• 2:39:00Speaker 02

  We're breaking ground on the Joe Rogan experience.

• 2:39:02Joe Rogan?

  What if that's it?

• 2:39:03Speaker 02

  That's crazy.

• 2:39:05Joe Rogan?

  You know, and also, here's the thing. We have this concept of this coming from another planet, but it might not be from another planet.

• 2:39:12Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:39:13Joe Rogan?

  It might be from here.

• 2:39:14Speaker 02

  Hal Puthoff noted that on your show. He has a paper called "The Slurrian Hypothesis," which is, you have cataclysms like the Younger Dryas impact, you know, or other things like that. You have 66 million years ago, Luis Walter Alvarez, you know, there's the asteroid impact, killed all the dinosaurs, or whatever. What if...

• 2:39:30Joe Rogan?

  Breakoff civilization, just like this $21 trillion is supposed to be funding.

• 2:39:34Speaker 02

  There you go.

• 2:39:35Joe Rogan?

  Right? Like, the underground, those tunnels and caverns in Turkey, where they have this immense underground civilization, or city, rather.

• 2:39:42Speaker 02

  And it almost felt like maybe they were hiding out from a cataclysm or something.

• 2:39:46Joe Rogan?

  Right. And that's what they think it was, yeah. So, imagine if there's some breakoff civilization where they lived, I mean, we're talking hundreds of thousands of years ago, but they're different than us. And, you know, sometimes they come visit.

• 2:40:01Speaker 02

  Could be, man, could be.

• 2:40:02Joe Rogan?

  Which is one of the reasons why they come out of the ocean a lot.

• 2:40:04Speaker 02

  Eh, totally. They're transmedium and like, in some sense, you would care way more about the nuclear stuff. You'd be like, don't destroy your planet, don't destroy our planet, we're here.

• 2:40:14Joe Rogan?

  You'll kill us too, you stupid.

• 2:40:15Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:40:16Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 2:40:16Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:40:17Joe Rogan?

  Also, you're dropping nukes in the ocean, you know?

• 2:40:22Speaker 02

  The Marshall Islands test, exactly.

• 2:40:24Joe Rogan?

  That's nuts.

• 2:40:25Speaker 02

  Really nuts.

• 2:40:25Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 2:40:26Speaker 02

  And I think, yeah, there's a whole other rabbit hole. I don't know if you want to get it.

• 2:40:30Joe Rogan?

  Does it, see if you can find out if the Babazah ones had handprints for three.

• 2:40:35Speaker 03

  There's a hand scanner he talked about, but it wasn't about three fingers.

• 2:40:38Joe Rogan?

  No, the hand scanner was at, um, Los Alamos.

• 2:40:42Speaker 03

  I typed in Babazah UFO three fingers, AI says his claims have nothing to do with aliens with three fingers.

• 2:40:49Joe Rogan?

  What did he say, uh, the controls for the vehicle? Cause.

• 2:40:57Speaker 02

  Sounds like mental, right?

• 2:40:58Joe Rogan?

  There's something about putting your hands on something. Believe there's something.

• 2:41:06Joe Rogan?

  Helmet 115. Didn't it say something about controls, like, that there, what did the inside of the craft look like?

• 2:41:19Joe Rogan?

  Inside of craft.

• 2:41:24Joe Rogan?

  So that's Jeremy Corbell.

• 2:41:25Speaker 03

  I could skip through that real quick and just see what it says.

• 2:41:27Joe Rogan?

  Okay. God, I want to say that they had three fingers.

• 2:41:33Speaker 02

  That would be wild.

• 2:41:34Joe Rogan?

  That'd be fucking insane, because they're tiny, they have three fingers, that's these things.

• 2:41:39Speaker 02

  He said the seats were very small.

• 2:41:40Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 2:41:41Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:41:41Joe Rogan?

  They're supposed to like three feet tall or four feet tall, that's these things.

• 2:41:44Speaker 02

  There you go.

• 2:41:45Joe Rogan?

  That's these things.

• 2:41:46Speaker 02

  Yeah, and they're in the cave art, it looks like they're flying, it's like hard to say, because it's on caves or whatever.

• 2:41:51Joe Rogan?

  I want to see that, too.

• 2:41:53Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah, you can do tridactyl cave art.

• 2:41:55Joe Rogan?

  God, how weird. And how old is this cave art?

• 2:41:59Speaker 02

  I think it's dates to the Nazca period, so around that time.

• 2:42:02Joe Rogan?

  See, let's go look up that first. You did? Tridactyl cave art.

• 2:42:09Joe Rogan?

  How weird. It's all so fucking weird, man.

• 2:42:13Speaker 02

  Yeah, it's so weird.

• 2:42:14Joe Rogan?

  It's so weird, it's because it's almost like reality's fucking with you.

• 2:42:18Speaker 02

  Yeah, it is. It is, and you have like, the Amazon is, there's probably one in my dock, Jamie, that I sent you.

• 2:42:29Joe Rogan?

  There's one there.

• 2:42:30Speaker 02

  There's three, yeah, yeah.

• 2:42:32Joe Rogan?

  Whoa, three fingers and three toes, that's crazy. Textile fragments. Wow, circa 1,000 AD, whoa.

• 2:42:45Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:42:45Joe Rogan?

  Three fingers, three toes, big crazy head, weird eyes. How fucking strange, man.

• 2:42:52Speaker 02

  So nuts.

• 2:42:53Joe Rogan?

  There's so much we don't know and everyone's scared of being ridiculous.

• 2:42:57Speaker 02

  I know.

• 2:42:57Joe Rogan?

  You know, everyone's scared. It's one of the great things about what you do and what I do is we don't have to worry about being ridiculous.

• 2:43:03Speaker 02

  Totally.

• 2:43:03Joe Rogan?

  Because we just are.

• 2:43:04Speaker 02

  Yeah, and we don't have to be like, we have credentials.

• 2:43:06Joe Rogan?

  Right, right, right, right.

• 2:43:07Speaker 02

  Just being normal.

• 2:43:08Joe Rogan?

  We don't have to worry about being taken seriously.

• 2:43:10Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:43:10Joe Rogan?

  Because so many people do worry about it and they don't want to stick their neck out. But when you see something like this, the three fingers, three toes artwork from a thousand fucking years ago.

• 2:43:19Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:43:20Joe Rogan?

  And it looks really weird and then you see these things, you're like, hey, is that real?

• 2:43:24Speaker 02

  Totally. And discoveries require boldness. They require like, just going for it. And it's, it's, yeah, it's this like kind of nitpicky credentialism of like, I can't, I can't say anything other than the established. What is your incremental addition then to human knowledge?

• 2:43:43Joe Rogan?

  Right. And when faced with undeniable evidence, will you relent? Will you give in or will you just like, will you just like dig your heels in forever and claim bullshit till the, till you drop off the face of the earth? Like, what's going on with Egypt? You know, like, you know, when I had Zahi Hawass on and he's just completely unwilling to look at that, what is it, tomography? The data that shows that there might be something underneath the pyramids. This is bullshit. This is like, is it? Are you sure?

• 2:44:14Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:44:15Joe Rogan?

  How do you know? You don't even understand the science. How could you possibly know?

• 2:44:18Speaker 02

  No first principles arguments around it. It's just, no, it can't be or whatever. And I'm like, oh, so you're, it's politics. It's, science is supposed to be the most immune from politics and it's the most political thing.

• 2:44:32Joe Rogan?

  That's weird.

• 2:44:32Speaker 02

  It is weird.

• 2:44:33Joe Rogan?

  When you find that out, it's so disappointing.

• 2:44:35Speaker 02

  It's so disillusioning, totally.

• 2:44:38Joe Rogan?

  And then when you have these scientists that like dismiss people and they immediately start using terror, look at this one.

• 2:44:44Speaker 02

  That's so wild.

• 2:44:46Joe Rogan?

  Wow.

• 2:44:47Speaker 03

  Whatever that thing is around it has a like one arm with three and then one arm with three and one foot with three and one foot with three.

• 2:44:53Joe Rogan?

  Wow. Wow, what is that supposed to be representing?

• 2:44:57Speaker 03

  Two heads? I don't know.

• 2:44:59Joe Rogan?

  God.

• 2:44:59Speaker 03

  There's a couple of other things on the other page that had two headed cats.

• 2:45:02Joe Rogan?

  Maybe two heads, but no eyes. How weird is that? Like, what is that?

• 2:45:05Speaker 03

  Big eye, one eye here, one eye here, two eyes, an eye on the side.

• 2:45:08Joe Rogan?

  Or maybe that's it inside something that it controls.

• 2:45:13Joe Rogan?

  You know what I'm saying?

• 2:45:14Speaker 02

  Little sports model.

• 2:45:15Joe Rogan?

  Right, where it's showing the fingers, meaning like the fingers are what operates this thing. What are you seeing?

• 2:45:22Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:45:23Joe Rogan?

  This is so nuts, man.

• 2:45:24Speaker 02

  It's so crazy.

• 2:45:25Joe Rogan?

  All three fingers, like what are the fucking odds of that?

• 2:45:28Speaker 02

  Yeah. Yeah.

• 2:45:29Joe Rogan?

  What are the odds that this is a thousand years old, these images and this, these textiles, and then you find this stuff?

• 2:45:36Speaker 02

  Totally.

• 2:45:36Joe Rogan?

  Like, what?

• 2:45:37Speaker 02

  And it's in the mythology and...

• 2:45:38Joe Rogan?

  Right, what the fuck is going on, man?

• 2:45:40Speaker 02

  I know.

• 2:45:41Joe Rogan?

  It's so frustrating, Jesse.

• 2:45:43Speaker 02

  I'm with you, man. And the Amazon is the size of the Indian subcontinent and we have to like lidar it and like understand, we're finding cities every day.

• 2:45:51Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 2:45:52Speaker 02

  We'd need to do the research.

• 2:45:54Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, we do, we do. Look at more of these, more three finger ones. God, so weird. Yeah, so weird.

• 2:46:04Speaker 03

  Like, almost that weird bird that we looked at the other day with Luke.

• 2:46:07Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, it does.

• 2:46:09Speaker 03

  Thing that was on a petroglyph.

• 2:46:11Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 2:46:12Speaker 02

  And Luke, who hopefully will be an amazing guest on your show.

• 2:46:17Joe Rogan?

  He's been on.

• 2:46:18Speaker 02

  I know.

• 2:46:18Joe Rogan?

  He was amazing. Yeah, he was fantastic. He was so good.

• 2:46:21Speaker 02

  He, um, he will say, like, he's been everywhere, right? And like, he's always like, Peru is the weirdest place I always go.

• 2:46:28Joe Rogan?

  Really?

• 2:46:29Speaker 02

  So.

• 2:46:30Joe Rogan?

  Wow.

• 2:46:31Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:46:32Joe Rogan?

  Well, dude, thank you so much for coming in. I fucking love your show. It's so good. It's excellent. American Alchemy, it's on YouTube. Uh, is it just Jesse Michaels on YouTube? Like, how do they find the channel?

• 2:46:42Speaker 02

  Jesse Michaels on YouTube. I have a WOP, which is where we, it's called W H O P. It's an amazing place where we facilitate discussions about cool science and frontier stuff. I don't know. I don't sleep.

• 2:46:54Joe Rogan?

  This must absorb, because your stuff is really well-produced. You must, it must take an enormous amount of time to edit all that.

• 2:47:00Speaker 02

  Honestly, I'm burnt out.

• 2:47:04Joe Rogan?

  Listen, I'm glad you're doing it. I really appreciate you.

• 2:47:06Speaker 02

  I appreciate you.

• 2:47:07Joe Rogan?

  Everybody, go watch it. Go check out the channel. It's fantastic. If they want to find you on social media, what is your...

• 2:47:13Speaker 02

  My social media, Jesse Michaels Official on Instagram.

• 2:47:16Joe Rogan?

  No A.

• 2:47:16Speaker 02

  Out of the American.

• 2:47:17Joe Rogan?

  Michaels with no A.

• 2:47:18Speaker 02

  No A. Thank you. Vain of my existence.

• 2:47:20Joe Rogan?

  Oh, is it?

• 2:47:20Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:47:21Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, I'm sure.

• 2:47:21Speaker 02

  Roll call, back in the day.

• 2:47:24Joe Rogan?

  Alright, well, thank you so much. It was fun.

• 2:47:26Speaker 02

  Joe, I appreciate you, man.

• 2:47:27Joe Rogan?

  Let's do it again sometime, when more shit's gonna come out, hopefully.

• 2:47:29Speaker 02

  Let's do it. Awesome, man.

• 2:47:31Joe Rogan?

  Thank you. Bye, everybody.