From The Archives: Don Lemon Writes About God

One need not look very far to see that the television landscape has rapidly changed in the last few years, with an influx of new streaming platforms and shifting audience viewing patterns. Another notable upheaval: In 2023, Don Lemon, the Edward R. Murrow and Emmy Award-winning journalist and longtime host of “CNN Tonight with Don Lemon,” was let go from CNN after seventeen years with the network. Following his exit, Lemon took time for introspection, resulting in his new book, “I Once Was Lost: My Search for God in America.” The work is a deeply personal exploration of his spiritual journey and the role of religion in the country. It is Lemon’s third book, following “Transparent” and the #1 New York Times bestseller “This Is The Fire: What I Say to My Friends About Racism.” Earlier this year, the anchor launched his new endeavor, “The Don Lemon Show,” on YouTube and podcast platforms. Host Alec Baldwin speaks with Don Lemon about the shakeup at CNN, the role of his faith in trying times, and the importance of the press and the First Amendment in a free society. Originally aired October 21st, 2024. See omnystudio.com/listener https://omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Speaker 00

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• 1:39Alec Baldwin?

  This is Alec Baldwin, and you're listening to Here's the Thing from iHeart Radio. The last few years have seen drastic changes in the rapidly evolving landscape of cable and streaming television. You know the times have changed when even the news is making news. At CNN, there were reports of chaos and uncertainty, the sudden resignation of President Jeff Zucker, followed by the installation of his successor, Chris Licht, and drastic changes to their lineup. One of the biggest changes? Moving my guest today, CNN Tonight anchor Don Lemon, to mornings after a decade in prime time.

• 2:20Alec Baldwin?

  Shortly after, Lemon made some controversial comments on air and was unceremoniously fired from the network 17 years into his tenure. Now he has released a book, I Once Was Lost: My Search for God in America, a deeply personal journey of his faith through difficult times that also takes a hard look at politics and religion in America today. The Emmy-winning journalist launched a new series earlier this year, The Don Lemon Show, on streaming podcast platforms and on YouTube. I wanted to know how he made the decision of where to launch his new show.

• 3:00Speaker 04

  YouTube is the number one network in the world. It has surpassed Netflix. It's because everyone has a computer in their pocket, and that is the new television. It's the same thing, you watch it, but it's just a different form of distribution. So if I can go there, create content, and pretty much do exactly what I want to do, why not? That's why I chose YouTube. Also, Alec, I have some contractual obligations. As you know, you're in the business, you have non-competes and all of that, so I had to find a place where I could go and do what I do and create my own business.

• 3:33Alec Baldwin?

  Non-cable, non-network.

• 3:34Speaker 04

  Right, right. That doesn't compete with my contract at the old place.

• 3:37Alec Baldwin?

  Now, I want to touch on that. I'm wondering, we've got two things here, obviously, career and faith. The book is called I Once Was Lost, and I went to your book signing event where you were interviewed by Zucker, who was very funny, by the way. I was surprised.

• 3:52Speaker 04

  Yeah, he's good, right?

• 3:53Alec Baldwin?

  He's very good. So you go to YouTube, obviously, there's a non-compete aspect in there. But to describe your career in television and when that ended, what ended? You started at CNN, what year?

• 4:05Speaker 04

  2006.

• 4:06Alec Baldwin?

  2006, and you started doing what?

• 4:08Speaker 04

  I started as, let's see, oh wow, it's been so long ago. 2006, I was the afternoon anchor on CNN Newsroom.

• 4:17Speaker 04

  From one to four in the afternoon.

• 4:19Alec Baldwin?

  And you did that for how long?

• 4:20Speaker 04

  I did that for about eight years or so.

• 4:22Alec Baldwin?

  Eight years?

• 4:22Speaker 04

  Yeah. Two thousand, yeah, thirteen to fourteen, I moved on. I moved to New York. I was in Atlanta.

• 4:26Alec Baldwin?

  Right. And you move on to do what show?

• 4:28Speaker 04

  I moved on to do, I did weekend evenings for a while to sort of create, you know, get my own voice, develop my own voice. And then Jeff Zucker took over and said, hey, you're pretty talented.

• 4:39Alec Baldwin?

  Who was in charge before Zucker?

• 4:40Speaker 04

  Jim Walton was the head of the network, yeah.

• 4:41Alec Baldwin?

  And Zucker took over and he wanted you on in the evening? He put you on in the evening?

• 4:45Speaker 04

  Yes. I, I went to Zucker because I didn't, I hated Atlanta. And I'm a New Yorker. Even though I grew up in Louisiana, I'm a New Yorker by heart. And I said, hey, listen, it's been great working here.

• 4:56Alec Baldwin?

  I'm out of here.

• 4:57Speaker 04

  I said, I can't live in Atlanta anymore, so thanks, you know, I'm glad you just took over the network, blah, blah, blah, blah. And he said, yeah. He said, you don't have to. You're moving to New York. And that was it.

• 5:07Alec Baldwin?

  And you did the evening on the weekends? And then you did your evening show starting when? How long did you do weekends?

• 5:11Speaker 04

  I did the evenings on the weekends for a while. I think I did the evenings for, you know, five years. Look, the afternoon, I'm sort of, you know, sort of mixing that in the evening, because I started the evening in Atlanta. And then I continued the evening in New York and Jeff would sort of mentor me, you know, because he's, he'd watch twenty-four hours a day, so even breaking news would happen.

• 5:30Alec Baldwin?

  What did he tell you?

• 5:31Speaker 04

  He would say, breaking news, I need you to stay on for another hour. We're gonna blow out the medical show. I need you to stay on and do this. Repeat the breaking news, you know.

• 5:40Alec Baldwin?

  But he didn't coach you about style?

• 5:42Speaker 04

  No, no, not at all. Because he liked my style. He liked me being me. He would, if anything, he would say, lean into it.

• 5:47Alec Baldwin?

  Right.

• 5:48Speaker 04

  So he would say, you know, recap. Tell the audience, you know, it's breaking news, what it is. He wouldn't tell me what to say. He would say, a good question might be something like this. And I wouldn't ask it, you know, exactly as he would say, if I wanted to do it. But he wouldn't get upset if I didn't do it.

• 6:03Alec Baldwin?

  You could do audibles like quarterbacks.

• 6:05Speaker 04

  Yes, I could. And then he started, he had me filling in on every single show. I'd fill in in the afternoon. I'd fill in in the morning. I would do my evening show. He would send me on big stories. And he was, he really developed me.

• 6:17Alec Baldwin?

  And you started doing your show, the big show, the evening show, when?

• 6:20Speaker 04

  I started doing my show, Erin Burnett went out on maternity leave. And Jeff said, I want you to take over for her for maternity leave. So her entire couple of months she was off. I filled in her seven o'clock show. It was me. And I did my weekend show. So I was working seven days a week. And I didn't mind it. I loved it, actually.

• 6:38Alec Baldwin?

  You're doing the mornings and you're doing the morning shows, which have become so bizarre to me.

• 6:42Speaker 04

  I know.

• 6:43Alec Baldwin?

  I said to people, and I love all these people, I mean, I love Katie Couric, but the last time I watched The Today Show was when Katie Couric was on with Lauer and they did a, I guess, maybe it was for Halloween. They all dressed up in clothing and they sang Diamonds are a Girl's Best Friend as she's walking down a staircase, a glittering staircase or whatever. And I thought, I'm done. I don't need, I want the news, maybe tell some jokes, whatever. But they turned it into an entertainment show. But mornings, it's obviously a different ballgame. Even weekends, maybe you're a different ballgame. So what adjustments do you have to make in your style to be on in the evening?

• 7:15Speaker 04

  Oh, well, I'm an evening guy. The only reason I did the mornings is because, and you told me, you know, when I did the, you said, no one wants to see you in the morning. And you were right. I'm not a morning person. I'm not very good in the morning. I'm not good on coffee. Caffeine makes me jittery. I don't know what I'm saying or doing. So I did it because my company asked me to do it. And I was being a team player, but it was not a good fit for me. The adjustment is, is that you're constantly sleeping. You have to get up. I'm a night owl. I don't go to bed until two or three in the morning and I'm up at, you know, maybe ten, right? Before I would, you know, I'd have to wake up. I mean, when I was doing the mornings, I'd have to wake up at four in the morning, right? In order to be, yeah, it was really, really tough. So that's really the adjustment. I'm a cool cat at night. I like it and I like that late time slot.

• 7:59Alec Baldwin?

  I like working at night.

• 8:00Speaker 04

  I do too.

• 8:00Alec Baldwin?

  And I get more alive at night.

• 8:01Speaker 04

  Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I do movies and the guy said to me, we're in a black box theater, shooting this movie for all these scenes inside this theater for a month in Florida. And he says, no windows, no nothing, no light dependent at all. He goes, we can shoot whenever we want. He goes, what time you want to go to work?

• 8:17Alec Baldwin?

  Love it.

• 8:18Speaker 04

  And I said, noon. We're gonna shoot noon to midnight.

• 8:21Alec Baldwin?

  Yeah.

• 8:22Speaker 04

  And we did. We shot noon to midnight for four weeks and I was in heaven. I was like, man, I'm just getting going.

• 8:26Alec Baldwin?

  Yeah.

• 8:26Speaker 04

  I, like about seven or eight. At night, like my best work, I don't wake up that late, but my best work is at night. So having that ten o'clock slot was perfect for me. And then, you know, I was on until midnight every night, but that was when I would get that energy.

• 8:40Alec Baldwin?

  And you liked being solo.

• 8:41Speaker 04

  Oh, I love being solo.

• 8:42Alec Baldwin?

  You worked co-anchors for a while.

• 8:43Speaker 04

  That's tough.

• 8:44Alec Baldwin?

  You didn't like that format.

• 8:45Speaker 04

  No, I'm a team player, but. Not in that way.

• 8:47Alec Baldwin?

  Right.

• 8:47Speaker 04

  I have my own flow.

• 8:48Alec Baldwin?

  Right.

• 8:49Speaker 04

  And everybody can't keep up with me.

• 8:50Alec Baldwin?

  Right.

• 8:51Speaker 04

  You know, and and.

• 8:52Alec Baldwin?

  Like doubles tennis, they're not the best partner.

• 8:54Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 8:54Alec Baldwin?

  For your game.

• 8:54Speaker 04

  And you gotta, you gotta have a good partner. You have to have someone who can keep up with you. And, you know, I don't mean that in a, you know, I'm not diminishing anyone, but.

• 9:02Alec Baldwin?

  Right.

• 9:02Speaker 04

  Someone like a Kara Swisher.

• 9:04Alec Baldwin?

  Very personal.

• 9:04Speaker 04

  Yeah, like someone like a Kara Swisher or a Joy Behar or someone, they could keep up with me. They get my sense of humor and they don't take anything personally and they can give it or take it as good as they give it.

• 9:15Alec Baldwin?

  Right.

• 9:15Speaker 04

  Right? You know what I mean? I love that kind of partner.

• 9:17Alec Baldwin?

  They didn't want to demonize or criminalize your. Modernances.

• 9:21Speaker 04

  No, cuz they, they.

• 9:23Alec Baldwin?

  They're pals.

• 9:23Speaker 04

  They, they're pals and they get me. They get, it's not personal. It's just, we're just, we're just sitting having a conversation and people say all kinds of things in conversations. And it's not personal. It's just your talking. And when you talk, you say things and you go, ah, I don't mean that. Okay, all right, all right, all right, all right. So I said some shit that was great, whatever. And you just move on. But you can't do that with everybody cuz, you know, especially like younger folks, everything is like a personal affront.

• 9:46Alec Baldwin?

  Well, you, you walk in on a, on the set of a project. And when you're around young people, I find that there's a potential. For certain difficulties. I've never had any problems with this myself. I've never had any. I've had other problems, obviously, but not that one. And you walk onto the set, especially of a film.

• 10:02Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 10:03Alec Baldwin?

  And you're there and people, they're tense. You don't realize how tense they are. They're scared.

• 10:07Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 10:07Alec Baldwin?

  Younger people.

• 10:08Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 10:08Alec Baldwin?

  Come on and they're, but they, I mean, I've made whatever number of movies. I've made a hundred movies, ninety movies, whatever. I take pictures with people now, but I got taught by somebody famous, you put your arm on and they hook their elbow around your elbow. And they go, why do you wanna do that? A few of them would say, and I say, I can't put my hand behind your body anymore.

• 10:24Speaker 04

  Got it.

• 10:25Alec Baldwin?

  My hand can't be hidden behind your back in the photo. All the games we gotta play now, which are, which is cool, as long as I'm concerned.

• 10:30Speaker 04

  No, but you're right about that. You said you've done so many movies. I, I had been, I think I, I was doing the afternoons from oh six to about oh nine. And then I started doing the weekend evenings. And so I'd been doing the weekend evenings. I'd been solo, I should say, from about two thousand nine to twenty twenty three or twenty twenty two. And so I was just used to my own flow and people, you know, were used to me just being me. And so I had been there for quite some time, solo anchor, and, you know, people come in and they're like, they, you know, they don't get it. You know.

• 11:01Alec Baldwin?

  Now, when you do a show like that for people who don't know, because I find this behind the scenes very interesting. You come in there, you come in, the show was on the air at ten, the big show was on at ten.

• 11:09Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 11:10Alec Baldwin?

  You did the pass too with Chris.

• 11:11Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 11:12Alec Baldwin?

  And then everybody thought that was very entertaining, the two of you.

• 11:14Speaker 04

  It's the biggest compliment that people say about that.

• 11:17Alec Baldwin?

  Right.

• 11:17Speaker 04

  And about my show, they say that was the last appointment television for the network. Was that handoff and then going into my show, yeah.

• 11:26Alec Baldwin?

  Yeah, but the thing that people don't understand is, you get there what time?

• 11:30Speaker 04

  It would depend if I, if I had a pre-tape, I would go in earlier.

• 11:33Alec Baldwin?

  Right.

• 11:34Speaker 04

  But at the end, I moved across the street from the office. So it would take me literally a minute, minute and a half to be on the set. Because I lived in, it was in Hudson Yards. So I would go to work probably about eight, eight thirty.

• 11:47Alec Baldwin?

  So you're not there at three o'clock writing?

• 11:49Speaker 04

  No, I'm, I'm doing that from home.

• 11:50Alec Baldwin?

  Got it.

• 11:51Speaker 04

  Because basically, my office is not much further from the set than my home was.

• 11:55Alec Baldwin?

  Right.

• 11:55Speaker 04

  But before that, I would probably get to work about six.

• 11:58Alec Baldwin?

  Right.

• 11:58Speaker 04

  And the thing, the reason I did that, part of it was because of Jeff. Jeff said, why are you working on a show so early? Your show, why are you guys in the morning meeting? The morning meeting's at nine in the morning. Your show is twelve hours away, a half a day away. Everything's gonna change.

• 12:13Alec Baldwin?

  Exactly.

• 12:13Speaker 04

  And so what, what are you doing? And, and I found that when I, I would study for all of this stuff and just study, study, study, and over prepare. And then by the time the show came about at ten o'clock, it would be a whole different show. And I'd say, why the hell would I do this?

• 12:25Alec Baldwin?

  You gotta be more plausible.

• 12:26Speaker 04

  Had to learn to be nimble.

• 12:27Alec Baldwin?

  Now, you're there doing a show like that, how much do directors, I'm not gonna talk about technical directors with cameras in a studio. Are there directors, segment producers, writers? Who's got your ear in terms of content while you're doing the show?

• 12:39Speaker 04

  So it's my executive producer and...

• 12:42Alec Baldwin?

  How many of those did you have when you were on the big show?

• 12:44Speaker 04

  I had one executive producer.

• 12:45Alec Baldwin?

  Who was that?

• 12:46Speaker 04

  And then Maria Spinella.

• 12:47Alec Baldwin?

  Right.

• 12:47Speaker 04

  And then I had my own personal producer. And then there were segment producers. And so if there was a segment that someone had prepared and they needed to be in the control room, usually they stood there anyways. And so the segment producer would get in my ear, but usually it was the executive producer. But sometimes they would say, you know, I would say, it was nineteen times and they'd go ninety, ninety, and I'd go, I... Because sometimes you don't realize what you say, right? You'll just read something wrong or you'll just say something wrong. And so they would correct me, but it was mostly the director and the executive producer and mostly the director who would say, okay, thirty seconds out, ten seconds out, camera two. So start on camera two and I'm gonna turn you to three, stand by, you know the whole thing. Three, two. And go, camera one.

• 13:29Speaker 04

  Turn, and then you do that, that sort of thing, right? And then, um, you know, they would say, yeah, and you'd say, you know, and it's 14 people and they'd say graphic. And I'd go, take a look at your screen. It's up on the screen right now, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And then you talk blah, blah, and then they'd say on cam. And then I'd look back up and go, okay. And then you just.

• 13:44Alec Baldwin?

  Someone's directing your performance.

• 13:46Speaker 04

  Yeah, directing, they just, just to know where I'm going.

• 13:50Alec Baldwin?

  Right, technically, they're doing it. But they're not directing your, your tone, your.

• 13:53Speaker 04

  No, no. If I was off on something.

• 13:55Alec Baldwin?

  Someone would say, she'd say something.

• 13:56Speaker 04

  She'd say like, all right, watch it up, watch your tone. Yeah, or, yeah, you're, you're dragging a little bit. Are you tired? Whatever you want us to bring, bring, you want us to bring your coffee, diet coke or something? Yeah, or I'm gonna send makeup in, you're shiny, but that sort of thing, that's it.

• 14:09Alec Baldwin?

  Small.

• 14:09Speaker 04

  Small.

• 14:10Alec Baldwin?

  Now, I'm assuming that when Likt comes in, this is just Zaslav wants things his way. This is his regime. It's now it's gonna be my CNN. So Zucker's gone and he brings Likt in. And when Zucker's gonna go on, how much advance notice did you have that Zucker was leaving?

• 14:24Speaker 04

  Oh, that, I mean, that was in the news, right? So.

• 14:27Alec Baldwin?

  How much did you know when he was gonna be gone? And someone else was coming in, who was gonna run the company? You didn't know?

• 14:33Speaker 04

  No, no one, no one.

• 14:34Alec Baldwin?

  No one gave you any advance notice?

• 14:35Speaker 04

  No, it was in the, I, it was in the morning meeting. When it happened, I was in LA and I forget what I was doing. It may have been award season or something, I forget. I was in, in LA doing a project for the network. And I took the red eye and I got home and went to sleep. And I woke up to a lot of text messages and I was like, wait, what is this? It's, it always happens that way. That happened that way when, when Chris was let go, Chris Likt. And my executive producer said, Don, Jeff just resigned in the morning meeting. And I was like, wait, what? And then he called me and he said, I didn't have a chance to tell you, whatever, blah, blah, blah. And, you know, he called everybody afterwards, but he, I don't think he really had any notice himself.

• 15:14Alec Baldwin?

  Right.

• 15:15Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 15:15Alec Baldwin?

  Well, I, I kind of equate him, this is just my opinion, by the way, which is meaningless, but I, I kind of equate him with, with Ronnie Meyer. When they let Ronnie Meyer go for similar reasons, his personal life.

• 15:24Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 15:25Alec Baldwin?

  And you wanna sit there and you wanna go, well, I'm running a company now and I'd like this guy to go. And that's my excuse to let him go. And I really was gonna bring in another guy, cause I want my, I wanna run my CNN. So somebody's gone like Universal. I think Ronnie Meyer hit the point where he was making like forty million dollars a year and they were like, no, we need you, go.

• 15:43Speaker 04

  Look, I'll let you say that, but you're a smart guy. So but here, you know, Jeff is the last of the TV executive, the celebrity TV executive mavericks, right? Everyone is so risk averse now, they're afraid, you know, they're, the stockholders want and all that. He really protected us from the overlords, from the corporate, you know, overlords. He really did.

• 16:05Alec Baldwin?

  His guts.

• 16:06Speaker 04

  His guts and he's like, you know, this is journalism. I understand what you do, because he did what they did, right? He ran NBC and he understood it, but he's really a journalist at heart because he started at the Today Show and he started in the news business.

• 16:21Alec Baldwin?

  He had a good run there.

• 16:22Speaker 04

  He had a good run there and then he went to run the news division at NBC and then he ran entertainment and then he ran the entire network. So he really, and we didn't realize it, you know, until he was gone.

• 16:32Alec Baldwin?

  When Lick comes, like most executives, I've assumed when you're the top tier talent on a show, that they come, is it like dinners and whining and dining and getting to know each other and everything is, and you don't really know where it's gonna go and then it goes the wrong way?

• 16:46Speaker 04

  Yeah, there's a little of that. There's a little of that.

• 16:48Alec Baldwin?

  It's polite.

• 16:49Speaker 04

  It's polite, yeah.

• 16:51Alec Baldwin?

  In the beginning.

• 16:51Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 16:52Alec Baldwin?

  And then things changed. Right. Well, I mean, I just find it odd because I just feel like, I won't name names, but I've known a couple of people who were execs at film studios, especially TV where the, that conveyor belt is moving and they can't press pause. They got, you know, they have a plan which seems to be everybody's plan now. Years ago it was a plan. Now it's everybody's plan, which is if I can't raise revenue, I gotta cut costs. So it's just a lot of firing, a lot of budget cutting.

• 17:17Speaker 04

  But don't you think to a certain extent that when your job is protected and mentioned in the First Amendment, that there should be some exemption from that whole thing? Like, I don't think the news division should be solely Are wholly in large part driven by revenue and numbers, numbers and ratings. It shouldn't because you're supposed to give information, you're supposed to hold people who are in power, hold them to account.

• 17:42Alec Baldwin?

  But you told me that when we were at the book party, I raised my hand, I asked a question, I said, the networks and traditional media, mainstream media, have they lost young people? And you said, they haven't lost, but they're losing. And then you went on to talk about the people who are considered through some research you quoted to being about being the most informed people, get their news from where?

• 18:02Speaker 04

  They get their news digitally.

• 18:03Alec Baldwin?

  Right.

• 18:03Speaker 04

  Yeah. And listen, the older people get their news from, you know, they watch, they sit there and they watch cable news all day, they watch six thirty, or they, you know, they're watching the morning shows, or they're doing that. Younger people are getting their news on TikTok or whatever, but the most informed people are, they'll go on digitally, they'll watch something on YouTube, they'll watch whatever, even if they go to, you know, Twitter or TikTok or whatever, but then they'll do their research. And they are media literate and more media savvy. I find the people who sit in front of the television all day have an unconscious or built in bias, because you can tell from whatever network they're watching. But by the time they get to the arguments around the table, the panels, they don't know what they actually came there for, what the point of the whole segment was, that's what they conveyed to me.

• 18:48Alec Baldwin?

  Well, but the shows, which are moderated shows, which are these mosh pits and everybody's going at it, I think more and more people have realized now that it's, that's not worth their time. I always say to people, what do I watch? I said, I watch Wolf Blitzer, straight, I call him straight, no chaser.

• 19:02Speaker 04

  Right, right, right.

• 19:03Alec Baldwin?

  It's just like, just tell me what the stop stories are, then I'm gonna go have dinner with my wife, you know? Give me ten, fifteen minutes on my couch, I watch CNN every night, every night.

• 19:11Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 19:12Alec Baldwin?

  Watch Blitzer, I watch MSNBC only when I come home. I watch Blitzer, I go to dinner, I come back and I watch Lawrence O'Donnell every now and then.

• 19:19Speaker 04

  I like Lawrence, I like Rachel, I like, but I, I think it's different when you're in prime time, as you know, it's just like when you're in prime time, you do sitcoms or whatever, it's different than something that's on during the day, right? And I think it's the same thing with cable news. Now, I don't believe that for networks, that's a different thing, you got six thirty and it's straight, no chaser, you're gonna, good evening, we're gonna start in Afghanistan, or whatever it is. And then, but at night, if you're watching cable, it's more of a personal experience and it's a longer sort of flow and, and people. They wanted to be appointment television. They wanted to be someone familiar, someone they trust, someone who can actually maybe tell them a little bit how they feel. People would say, "I wasn't sure about it, Dom, but then I watched you and you know, and I said, you know what? That guy's right." And I think that's okay. I don't agree with everything,

• 20:02Speaker 04

  hardly anything that Sean Hannity says, but he's perfect for a primetime cable show, right? He's, and he's a star. I don't, and I-

• 20:09Alec Baldwin?

  Bill O'Reilly, who had a great delivery and he was a real broadcaster. I didn't agree with a word he said either.

• 20:14Speaker 04

  I've always said that about Bill O'Reilly. He's a great performer and I would watch him and I would take notes and I'd go, "That guy is good." And the same thing, and people are gonna, you know, gonna go, "Oh, my gosh, can't believe he said that." Same thing with Megyn Kelly. I don't agree with anything she says. She's turned out to be the biggest troll and, and is-

• 20:28Alec Baldwin?

  She, she flipped out.

• 20:30Speaker 04

  Oh, my gosh, it's embarrassing.

• 20:31Alec Baldwin?

  I went to a book party at first with my wife.

• 20:33Speaker 04

  But when she was on, same, I, I, we were at that same party, yeah. On the rooftop of a hotel somewhere, yeah. But she, at that time, I think she was on at eight or nine o'clock or whatever at night, she was perfect for that hour. She's a great performer. She comes on, she's energy, whatever. And, you know, the morning, speaking of people being out of position, the morning show was not her position, I believe. Just like it was and I wasn't in position as well. And that's the thing about a good media or news executive. They know what positions of people should be playing. So, you need that sort of a personality. Same thing with, with Chris. Chris is a star. He's great for cable news at night. Chris Cuomo, he's great for cable news at night. I thought I was great for cable news at night, you know? And people wanted to tune in. They wanted to tune into us. Rachel Maddow, perfect. Cable news host.

• 21:17Alec Baldwin?

  But I think that people, what, you know, when you, when I watch news, having grown up and having had news having a very sacred place in my life, it was sacred. The news was very important to me. And now when I see the news, it's just weird. There's a, there's a chemistry. You have to have a chemistry with that person. You know, like I used to listen to, he's a good friend of mine. I love Kurt Anderson. And when Kurt had that show, Studio 360 on NPR, I, I loved that show. That was my favorite podcast along with This American Life with Kurt Anderson.

• 21:46Speaker 04

  And you don't feel you have that connection to any of the news folks?

• 21:48Alec Baldwin?

  I had it with you. I love watching you on TV. I'm not just saying that. I thought you were great. I mean, you were, you, you had the right chemistry. I mean, beyond you being a handsome- Some guy and being stylish and being this and that.

• 21:58Speaker 04

  Thank you.

• 21:59Alec Baldwin?

  No, but you had a great delivery. It was really, it was easy to watch you. Whereas people that I watch and I go, well, maybe a little less of you.

• 22:05Speaker 04

  It's the same thing with knowing who's a good reporter and who's a good anchor. Very few people can do both. And people don't realize it. They don't understand that like anchoring a show. It's another world. It's not easy and you have to hold someone's attention. But I think now in this day and age, people think that, okay, they're a good reporter. So therefore they're a good anchor. And I disagree with that. You can have someone who can anchor a show, who is not necessarily the best journalist in the world. But they're interesting. And but when there are big breaking news stories, then you throw to the person who's the good reporter.

• 22:34Alec Baldwin?

  The YouTube thing is on what time now? You're on the air when?

• 22:36Speaker 04

  I'm on the air. Well, it lives forever on YouTube. But I do a five o'clock show every day, which was not how I envisioned doing it. I do a five o'clock live show every day where I just talk to the subscribers and talk to them about things that's happening and what they should know before they, you know, go home or have dinner. But then I just started one at 10 a.m., which is sort of a hot topic show, where I'm trying to get away from the politics and, you know, and the hard news and do things that are a little lighter. But everything in the zeitgeist now is politics. You know, they're eating the dogs or eating the cats. That goes over, you know, it all spills over.

• 23:12Alec Baldwin?

  Author and anchor Don Lemon. If you enjoy conversations with famous broadcasters, check out my episode with the legendary Dan Rather.

• 23:22Speaker 05

  When the first faint edges of what we came to know as Watergate began to emerge, I was skeptical that it would reach the Oval Office itself. You've never met anybody who had more respect for the office of the presidency of the United States than I do. It was very difficult for me to accept that the president himself would be involved in any way. However, as time went along, facts began to first whisper. Then they began to speak in full voice and then the facts began to shout that it isn't just lower level campaign operatives. It isn't just lower level members of the administration. That this probably goes into the Oval Office itself.

• 24:03Alec Baldwin?

  To hear more of my conversation with Dan Rather, go to here's the thing.org. After the break, Don Lemon tells us how a tragic event led to him rethinking his relationship with God and with his faith.

• 24:24Speaker 00

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• 24:55Speaker 06

  This is Shirley Strawberry from the Steve Harvey Morning Show. Buy smart, drive for less, and trade for more. That's Toyota affordability. And it starts with a great deal on an all-wheel-drive Camry, Corolla Cross, or a Corolla Sedan with the latest features and tech. Or test drive a spacious Grand Highlander or adventure-ready RAV4. And with so many hybrid models available, you can enjoy longer trips without all the stops. While Toyota's legendary resale value means you could get more at trade-in, get a great deal today and a great value tomorrow. Shop toyota.com for deals and details. Toyota, let's go places.

• 25:36Speaker 07

  Breathe in and reset with Lincoln Rejuvenate, an available multi-sensory feature in the 2027 Lincoln Navigator SUV. Experience the luxurious massage, visuals, and sense to help you relax in the driver's seat. It's your time for a reset. Visit lincoln.com to learn more. Lincoln Rejuvenate does not operate unless the vehicle is in park. When the vehicle is off, or if any doors open, do not use the feature in a closed garage or in other enclosed areas. See owner's manual for important operating instructions. Lincoln and Navigator are trademarks of Ford or its affiliates. All rights reserved.

• 26:08Speaker 08

  What's that?

• 26:08Speaker 09

  My fresh detector.

• 26:10Speaker 08

  Uh, your what?

• 26:11Speaker 09

  There it is.

• 26:12Speaker 08

  What is it detecting?

• 26:14Speaker 09

  Fresh produce, fresh meat.

• 26:16Speaker 08

  Okay, what happens if it detects something really fresh?

• 26:22Speaker 09

  Apparently, we celebrate.

• 26:24Speaker 10

  At Food Lion, you can count on fresh food at fresher prices when your fresh detector is going off. Head to your local Food Lion or shop at foodlion.com.

• 26:38Alec Baldwin?

  I'm Alec Baldwin. And you're listening to Here's the Thing. Don Lemon's new book, I Once Was Lost: My Search for God in America, details his very personal examination of his faith. But this is not Lemon's first foray in the publishing world.

• 26:56Speaker 04

  I've written three books. This is a fire debuted at number one in New York Times during the George Floyd thing, when that all happened in 2021.

• 27:03Alec Baldwin?

  And the first thing I said to you when I came backstage to just give you a quick hug at the book party was you should write another book. And you were like, I don't know, man.

• 27:09Speaker 04

  It's tough. Alec, it's so tough. And you don't know, you know, it was, it was easier in the sense, what was easier was the selling of the book when I had that big engine behind me of CNN where I could mention at any moment, you know, it's in my book. By the way, you can go buy it and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Or in the commercial break, I would say, throw my book up. And as we go to commercial, I'd say, by the way, my book is on sale and you can get it at Barnes and Noble or any of your local bookstore. They were fine with it.

• 27:34Alec Baldwin?

  They were cool.

• 27:35Speaker 04

  That would help them. And so I was able to do that with that book. I can't do it with this book. I have to sell this book, which is good for, you know, I don't mind that.

• 27:40Alec Baldwin?

  You can't do it on YouTube?

• 27:41Speaker 04

  I can, yeah. Of course I do it on YouTube. I think some people are getting sick of it. But writing is hard. It's like you're putting your heart out there. It's like you're wearing your heart outside of your body, not in the way that you have kids, but you don't know how people are going to receive it, if they're going to trample on it, if they're going to trash you, if it's going to sell. It's just a whole thing. And, you know.

• 27:58Alec Baldwin?

  It's more personal than anything you might do.

• 27:59Speaker 04

  It is.

• 28:00Alec Baldwin?

  Because it's you. When I make a movie, somebody else is directing the movie.

• 28:02Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 28:03Alec Baldwin?

  You know what I mean? Now, you come from a, I don't want to say religiously, you use the word you want to. Describe the family you came from in terms of faith.

• 28:10Speaker 04

  Well, I came from a family who was faithful. Let's put it that way. They had faith. My mother was not as churchy, as they say, as my aunt was. She's got Alzheimer's now, a holy roller. You know, she'd never missed a sermon. She was on the usher board and all of that stuff. My mom was in the choir, but we, she wasn't quite as religious as her, the rest of her family. But my grandmother was as well, you know, they were members and you'd pay their dues. I'm sure my mom still pays dues for the church. She just doesn't go as often as, you know, one would think. But I went to, I grew up Baptist. I would go to church and then I'd go to Sunday Bible school. In the Baptist church and then I'd go to vacation Bible school in the summer in the Baptist

• 28:55Speaker 04

  church and during the week during the school year, I went to the Catholic school and we would do catechism and then we'd have mass on Friday, every Friday, and then if it was a special holiday, we'd have mass then and then in the morning, we would line up like a military school, hand out front.

• 29:12Alec Baldwin?

  Put the hands on each other.

• 29:13Speaker 04

  On the shoulder and we'd line up by height and then we'd have the announcement and we'd do the Star Spangled Banner and the Pledge Allegiance and then we would pray and then we'd go to class in lines like military school and then you would, before you go to recess or whatever.

• 29:26Alec Baldwin?

  You talked about in the book how much you liked.

• 29:27Speaker 04

  We pray. I liked it because it was because it gave you discipline and you had a regimen and.

• 29:33Alec Baldwin?

  Were part of something.

• 29:34Speaker 04

  You were part of something and it was a stability there that you had, you know, okay, we gotta go to recess, we stand up, we pray that we're gonna be safe at recess and then we all line up and we go down to the yard and we have the recess and then we come back and then before we went to lunch, we'd pray, you know, over our meal and then we'd come back and we'd pray, whatever. So, and then if an adult entered the class, you'd say, "Good afternoon, Mr. Baldwin" and you'd stand up and, and we did not sit down until Mr. Baldwin would say.

• 30:01Alec Baldwin?

  You were told to.

• 30:02Speaker 04

  "Good afternoon, class."

• 30:03Alec Baldwin?

  You may be seated.

• 30:04Speaker 04

  You may be seated.

• 30:05Alec Baldwin?

  It was a different world.

• 30:06Speaker 04

  Amazing, right?

• 30:07Alec Baldwin?

  You know, my faith, I'm, I'm a Catholic and I'm still Catholic and I go to church periodically, I go in waves and I go to hear that man speak.

• 30:14Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 30:15Alec Baldwin?

  I'm in Los Angeles and Father Tortureson, who was the head guy there at St. Monica's, I go hear him speak. I go into the city and go to Blessed Sacrament on 71st Street off of Broadway and watch this, a couple guys speak, but my guys in East Hampton who came out for the swing mass in the summertime.

• 30:32Speaker 04

  Mm-hmm.

• 30:33Alec Baldwin?

  So I'd go down in the summer and I, I get my communion and I wait for him as he came out of the recessional before everybody else mobbed him. And I said to him, "He's alone." I get him alone, I pull him aside from the other people with the recessional and I go, "I wanna do the, the confession, the reconciliation face to face." And he literally, he's like this kid from Rosedale, Queens, he goes, "Ugh, you wanna do that?" He goes, "Oh, please." I go, "No, I wanna do that." I wanna, he goes, "Please, I can't stand that." He goes, "Are you sorry for what you did in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit? You're absolved. Oh, please, don't make me do that." Like, we were pals, that's not, we're not in that racket anymore. We're friends. And I thought, "Oh, God, I can't believe how much this church has changed, you know, it's changed."

• 31:10Speaker 04

  "You wanna do that?"

• 31:11Alec Baldwin?

  "Oh, you wanna do that? Please." He said, "Get away. I don't wanna talk about that nonsense." And I was like, "Oh, God." Who's gonna hear my confession? Not him, obviously, my friend.

• 31:21Speaker 04

  I still can remember my, the priest voices in my, we had Father Hines, I can remember his big deep, and then we had Father Elwood, and I can just remember, their voices are stuck in my head, because I was in Catholic church so much.

• 31:33Alec Baldwin?

  But, but, but, I want to switch to this idea that, obviously with what I've been through in recent couple of years, this very difficult situation I was dealing with, it was painful on a level I can't even give words to, I literally can't even describe to people how much I suffered from that, but, and you, where's the summoning of your faith in your adult life and in recent years when there was tough times for you? Did you get into digging for help in that direction?

• 31:56Speaker 04

  Yes, I did, but first of all, I want to say I'm happy that you, that's over. And you know, everyone was praying for you, and we all, we all got what was happening, so thank you for standing tough, I really appreciate that. So, yes, I've always been a faithful person, but as my mother is, I'm not a churchy person, but I'm a believer, and I've always prayed and hoped and had faith, and I've had to summon it more often than not. I don't wear it on my sleeve because I don't believe in that, I don't believe in pushing my faith, my religion on anyone else, and it's, it's a personal thing for me. I had a crisis of faith in 2018 when my sister died suddenly in an accidental drowning, and that was, I started thinking about this.

• 32:36Alec Baldwin?

  How old was she?

• 32:37Speaker 04

  She was, I think, 59 at the time, and I started to question God, like, why would God do that? You know, it's supposed to be a benevolent God, and I know there are bad things that happen all the time, and you realize that intellectually until something happens to you, right, and you go, why did this happen to me? And so I asked, why, why, why, and I dug deep, and then I said, why not? And I tried to figure out, you know, why this was, why this happened.

• 33:00Alec Baldwin?

  You read that somewhere. Was there a quote in the book about someone said, well, why?

• 33:04Speaker 04

  There was a quote in the book, but also, I'd heard that before, but also Anderson Cooper's mom, Gloria Vanderbilt, said the same thing. She said, you know, people go, why me, why me, why me, why not me? And then, there was, in my family, there was a similar sort of saying, why not you? So figure out why it happened to you, why this is happening to you, and there's, there's a reason, and maybe it's just to make you stronger, I don't know. I would much prefer not to go through such things. And so I started questioning, why would God take my sister? She was a beautiful kid. She was a beautiful grandkid. She was so proud of her grandson, who was a great basketball player, a great football player. She went to every game. Like, what? Why? Why? Why? So that happened. And then after, I started thinking about this book. And then the George Floyd thing happened.

• 33:48Speaker 04

  And I had pitched this George Floyd book, and no one wanted to buy it. Not George Floyd, but about racism. And no one wanted to buy it. And then, you know, the thing happened, and everyone's like, can you write that book? And I'm like, okay. So I wrote it, and it was number one. But I started having this sort of crisis of faith. And then I started writing the book, and it was gonna be sort of this, you know, a coda to the last book. And where I was just gonna, you know, move from racism and a little bit more into religion. And I was gonna interview religious figures and people, folks like you, and talk about their faith. And then when I left CNN, it became something else. I think it became a much better and more personal book. So, yes, long story short, a long story long, I have had, you know, points in my life where I had to lean on my religion and the Lord, and I don't really talk to people about it.

• 34:33Alec Baldwin?

  Yeah. And it's interesting, when you work in this business, it could be anywhere, film and television or news, or of whatever medium, cable or a streaming network. You're around, and you said this word a lot in the book, cynical. You're around a lot of cynical people.

• 34:46Speaker 04

  Yeah. That's what journalists are, generally, right? Cynics.

• 34:50Alec Baldwin?

  Generally, you're right. They are. Of course they are. And you sit there and you think, what's it like to go minute to minute through an experience with a bunch of cynical people? Like, was there anybody at work who was faith-based, even to some degree, you could talk about it with? Or was it all just family and close friends? And Tim?

• 35:06Speaker 04

  It was all just family and close friends, but mostly it was just me, Alec.

• 35:12Alec Baldwin?

  Right.

• 35:13Speaker 04

  I didn't, I don't.

• 35:14Alec Baldwin?

  It's an inside job.

• 35:15Speaker 04

  It's an inside job. And I remember, you know, it would, things would get so tough, because doing what I did was a very stressful, it was a high-pressure job, high-wire job, every night live. And you're like, oh, something comes out of your mouth. And there's always something, why'd you say this? Why'd you do this? So the people hate you here. Oh, they're mad at you here. You gotta give this response here. And I'm like, oh, my God. Like, why? Most people just go, it's a nine-to-five job. They go home. You screwed up, up, you know, you rounded up.

• 35:39Alec Baldwin?

  Get over it.

• 35:40Speaker 04

  Yeah, so, and then you get over it. And then when that would happen to my sister and, and all the other things that would happen, I would just count. I would say, you know, God, God, my steps, one, two, three, and I would just count my step. I would take step by step by step by step. And I would count my steps to the studio sometimes, especially when my sister died, because you never knew when it was gonna hit you. And so I would have to like, think about things. I'd go, you know, one, two, three, four, five, six, seven steps. Okay, tonight I'm gonna talk about, you know, Trump and, you know, very fine people on both sides, both sides. And I would just have to keep, and I would say, Lord, when I get there, help me see both sides or help me whatever. And then I would just, I would just pray and they'd say, okay, you know, get the IFB on, and I'd be, then I'd say, okay, God, here we go. Just don't let it happen.

• 36:24Speaker 04

  Don't let me get sad during the middle of a segment and start crying or whatever. And so let me be focused or whatever. And then, you know, the music would come up and I would just, I would say, and when they would say, go, that's when I would snap out of it.

• 36:36Alec Baldwin?

  Right. With this New Mexico event, I sat there saying to myself, what do you want me to do? There must be something you want me to do. You want me to change? You want me to do this or that? I prayed harder for them to dismiss the case prior on the gun charge, and they denied us. So when I go to trial and I didn't get my way before and I begged God, I begged. I'll never forget, I watched The Crown and the Queen of England is on her knees praying next to her bed, and I go, if the Queen of England can get on her knees and pray, why can't I? And I got on my knees and sometimes I'm crying and I go, please, what do you want me to learn from this and do from this? I said, please make this case be dismissed on this charge. And later on, it played out the way it played.

• 37:19Alec Baldwin?

  I go, if you take your hands off the steering wheel and stop white knuckling the steering wheel and trying to control and manage everything, maybe something wonderful will result.

• 37:27Speaker 04

  Yes, that was a hand of God.

• 37:29Alec Baldwin?

  Yeah.

• 37:29Speaker 04

  Sometimes you just have to say, you know, as you said, take your hands off the wheel and just pray that you're gonna be okay.

• 37:36Alec Baldwin?

  What do you want me to do?

• 37:37Speaker 04

  That I'm okay with whatever your will is. Show me. So did you, let me, I'm gonna be a journalist. Did it change you?

• 37:44Alec Baldwin?

  That situation changed me a lot in terms of my feelings about having my children and getting remarried and having so many kids, which is something that I, you know, I kind of knew what I was doing. And people don't think you do. They think, oh, you wake up one morning and somebody goes, oh, I peed on a stick and oh, guess what? You know, it's like, it's not all silly. And COVID happened, the strike happened, and overlapping with the strike was also my problem in New Mexico. What it made me do is people would say, my God, now you can get back to your old life. And I go, I don't want to get back to my old life.

• 38:14Speaker 04

  That's what I'm asking you.

• 38:15Alec Baldwin?

  This is my life now.

• 38:16Speaker 04

  Are you more, are you more compassionate?

• 38:19Alec Baldwin?

  Yes. If compassion means everybody I meet, I have to say to myself, they're going through something. Now I want to switch the topic to you with fame and red carpets.

• 38:27Speaker 04

  But I understand how you feel, especially about, because people, when they meet me, they say, you're different than what I read about. Because people often let their enemies and their detractors define them. And you know, similarly to you, the right wing media hates me. So they write the worst shit about me. And then people meet me who are conservative and even Trump supporters, and they're like, wait, you're not at all like what I read about in the New York Post. And you're like, no, I'm not that person at all.

• 38:51Alec Baldwin?

  Isn't it funny how you can be somewhere in a kind of benign setting? You're walking through a park and with my kids at some store, and you see people and you see the way within, under a second.

• 38:59Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 39:00Alec Baldwin?

  Within a fraction of a second, you see them regard you in a way with their eyes, where you know they're MAGA Republicans. And they're like, oh, God, it's him.

• 39:08Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 39:08Alec Baldwin?

  And I go walk into them and their kids playing, and I go, what's this little one's name? And you try to charm them, and they go, they're totally freaked out. And they're like, my God, I can't normalize you. Like, I can't handle that right now. You're an asshole and you have to remain an asshole.

• 39:20Speaker 04

  I know that. I know that very well.

• 39:24Alec Baldwin?

  Journalist and anchor Don Lemon. If you're enjoying this conversation, tell a friend. And be sure to follow Here's the Thing on the iHeartRadio app, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts. When we come back, Don Lemon shares his thoughts on the canceled deal with Elon Musk and the X platform, following just one broadcast.

• 39:51Speaker 00

  Cash flow crunch? OnDeck's small business line of credit gives your business immediate access to funds up to $200,000 right when you need it. Cover seasonal dips, manage payroll, restock inventory, or tackle unexpected expenses without missing a beat. With flexible draws, transparent pricing, and control over repayment, get funded quickly and confidently. Apply today at ondeck.com. Funds could be available as soon as tomorrow. Depending on certain loan attributes, your business loan may be issued by OnDeck or Celtic Bank. OnDeck does not lend in North Dakota. All loans and amounts subject to lender approval.

• 40:21Speaker 11

  Hey, what's up? This is Kelvin Washington from The Odd Couple with Rob Parker and Kelvin Washington. Buy smart, drive for less, and trade for more. That's Toyota affordability, and it starts with a great deal on off-road-ready Tacoma or half-ton Tundra. Two of Toyota's longest-lasting trucks, combining power for work, tech for adventures, and style in between. Built on a reputation for quality and reliability, Toyota trucks are known for holding their value, which could mean big savings when it's time for your next Toyota. So get a great deal today and a great value tomorrow. Shoptoyota.com for more. Toyota, let's go places.

• 40:58Speaker 07

  Breathe in and reset with Lincoln Rejuvenate, an available multi-sensory feature in the 2027 Lincoln Navigator SUV. Experience the luxurious massage, visuals, and sense to help you relax in the driver's seat. It's your time for a reset. Visit lincoln.com to learn more. Lincoln Rejuvenate does not operate unless the vehicle is in park. When the vehicle is off or if any doors open, do not use the feature in a closed garage or in other enclosed areas. See owner's manual for important operating instructions. Lincoln and Navigator trademarks of Ford or its affiliates. All rights reserved.

• 41:30Speaker 08

  Hello?

• 41:31Speaker 12

  Hey, it's me, your wallet.

• 41:33Speaker 08

  Oh, hey.

• 41:34Speaker 12

  I was just wondering if we could maybe take it easy this week?

• 41:37Speaker 08

  Absolutely.

• 41:38Speaker 12

  Really?

• 41:39Speaker 08

  Yep, I'm shopping at Food Lion.

• 41:40Speaker 12

  Wait, you mean low prices?

• 41:42Speaker 08

  And MVP savings.

• 41:44Speaker 12

  Oh, you do care.

• 41:46Speaker 08

  Obviously.

• 41:47Speaker 12

  Okay, I feel better.

• 41:48Speaker 08

  Good, now let's go get some snacks.

• 41:52Speaker 10

  At Food Lion, low prices and MVP savings make it easier to shop for what you need without spending more than you have to. When your wallet needs a little TLC, head to your local Food Lion or shop at foodlion.com.

• 42:09Alec Baldwin?

  I'm Alec Baldwin and you're listening to Here's the Thing. Don Lemon's recent wedding to his partner of eight years, Tim Malone, was heavily covered in the press. The pair are often photographed on the red carpet and at stylish events like New York Fashion Week. I wanted to know how a serious newsman navigates his relationship with fame.

• 42:31Speaker 04

  That is not why I got into the business, as you know, right? And I didn't get into this business thinking I was gonna make a lot of money.

• 42:38Alec Baldwin?

  But you became famous.

• 42:39Speaker 04

  But I became, and you know what? I'm enjoying my life. I'm happy, and if that fame, if that comes with it, if I get a better table at a restaurant, then so be it, but does that...

• 42:50Alec Baldwin?

  Enjoy it.

• 42:51Speaker 04

  Yeah, I'm enjoying it. And there were so many people who came before me who didn't get to do that. And just because I'm a journalist, it doesn't mean that I'm not a person. It doesn't mean that I don't enjoy getting out and meeting people. It doesn't mean that I don't enjoy going on red carpets or going to, you know, beautiful events. Why wouldn't I? I'm a human being. I think it's okay. Just because you're a journalist, it doesn't mean that you're not, you know, a full person, a multi-dimensional person, and I am. And so, you know what? I'm just enjoying my life. I'm grateful that I'm here. I don't know how many days are ahead of me, and while I'm here, I'm gonna get the best out of it.

• 43:24Alec Baldwin?

  The only reason you're on those red carpets is you're good-looking. That's the only reason. I don't think it's a shit about your journalism ethics.

• 43:29Speaker 04

  Maybe it's Tim. Maybe it's Tim. I don't know.

• 43:32Alec Baldwin?

  I think it's both.

• 43:33Speaker 04

  Yes, but I also think I'm there because I am enjoying it. If I wasn't enjoying it, I wouldn't be there. I enjoyed my job, I enjoyed what I, you know, my profession and what I did, and I think that that shines through. And so, I think that that's what made me, you know, a star, so to speak, right, in this business.

• 43:46Alec Baldwin?

  You didn't lose your warmth.

• 43:47Speaker 04

  No, why would I?

• 43:48Alec Baldwin?

  That's important. There's a magic mist that has to exude from you. It has to be emitted by you on camera, whether it comes through your eyes or anywhere. You have to convey it to your audience. There's no place else I'd rather be than here with you right now.

• 44:01Speaker 04

  Right.

• 44:02Alec Baldwin?

  It's only when you do see it, you go, "Hi, I'm Don Lemon, and tonight I want to tell you all about..." They're with you.

• 44:07Speaker 04

  Yes, and but you know what? I couldn't wait. I would tell them, like, "I couldn't wait to get here to tell you this story today." So, let's go.

• 44:13Alec Baldwin?

  It's like the journalist equivalent of someone walking up to you and going, "Would you like to dance? Charlie Dance." It's an engagement between you and your audience. Now, two quick things. One is the election, and I believe that everybody who talks and kind of piles on online or anywhere about Trump is completely wasting their time. What else are there to say about him? Do you believe in polls?

• 44:32Speaker 04

  I believe polls are a snapshot in time. I believe in polls less so now than I did before. We all learned our lesson from 2016 and then 2020 as well. But I think this time is going to be surprising. I think it's going to be surprising.

• 44:46Alec Baldwin?

  I think she has a real chance, obviously.

• 44:47Speaker 04

  I do, too.

• 44:48Alec Baldwin?

  I think we had no chance with Biden, who I admire. I admire her operation for him, but he was old.

• 44:52Speaker 04

  But I think there's a hidden vote for Trump with black men. I think even with some women that, you know, they still love him. And I think with college students, I don't, I know, I don't get it either. I don't get it either.

• 45:04Alec Baldwin?

  What I don't get also is that there's a person who came in who knew nothing about government. He held no, no office, not even a mayoralty.

• 45:09Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 45:10Alec Baldwin?

  Not a governor or as an executive, not a legislator in Congress or a state house. He knew nothing about government and he served in the White House for four years and he still doesn't know anything about government. He doesn't know what the people are, what they do.

• 45:20Speaker 04

  What's shocking to me is, it shouldn't be shocking, but the folks on his side are saying, she's not qualified and she has no experience. And I'm like, wait, do you know who you're supporting?

• 45:29Alec Baldwin?

  Are you insane? She's a senator. She's a vice president.

• 45:33Speaker 04

  Yeah, she's the attorney general.

• 45:35Alec Baldwin?

  She's a bright woman.

• 45:36Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 45:36Alec Baldwin?

  She's everything he isn't.

• 45:37Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 45:38Alec Baldwin?

  All right, Musk, I just want to say with Musk, you know, Musk is like, we were joking before you got in here that Musk to me is like Howard Hughes meets Mickey Rooney. He's like this loopy, nutty guy that's constantly slamming the door in his hand and screwing himself up public relations wise. But he's also a, an engineering genius or whatever, and he's made all this money and sold cars, which are one of the most difficult things on earth to do is to create a car and sell it to this country. When you went in to talk to him, I mean, obviously you were poised to work with him or for him at that company and do your show on X and that blew up. But when you were there, did you say to yourself, he's not much different from a lot of other network executives I've known? You didn't have any trepidation?

• 46:19Speaker 04

  Well, let me, let me say this. I am in ongoing, impending litigation with him, so I can't really say a lot. But what I can say is that I went into this with the best of intentions and at first I did not want to do it. It took some cajoling and some convincing and finally I did. I did not work for him. He was not my boss. He was not hiring me. What I had was a content deal with him, a distribution deal, where they would have a certain exclusive material for an amount of time and then it would go everywhere. So, you know, why not? Do it, because I wanted to. What I wanted to do, and was what he and they said, to get on the platform and to be a counter to all of the sort of right-wing conspiracy theorists

• 47:03Speaker 04

  that are out there. And, you know, that lasted all of half a day. So it didn't work out. So I feel, you know, it's awful that it didn't work out. It wasn't great for me. Wasn't what you hoped. Wasn't what I hoped, but, you know, I had worked with difficult people, but usually that's in, within the confines of a business that does not play out publicly like it did. He's a very consequential person to the world. And he has a very big and powerful platform that can affect lives, livelihood, and even people's safety. And one, I believe, must be and should be careful and more responsible with that. What do you hope people will take from this book? The biggest thing is that I want people to understand that we don't and shouldn't

• 47:47Speaker 04

  live in a theocracy, but it's going that way. And if you go through difficult periods, as you well know, if you trust the process, which is really called faith, people always say, "Trust the process," right, which is really faith for me, is that it's going to be okay. And if it's not okay, then usually we don't know about it. Usually, usually things work out for the best. And I think it's, you have to have the right mentality, and you have to have the right faith, and you have to have people around you who love you, as you well know. As you are. Yeah. Love you for who you are. Love you for who you are. And so, but I want people to get to know my story. I tell my story, Alec, and America's story through the lens of religion and faith in

• 48:31Speaker 04

  this country. And I wrote this book because of my love for the country and my love for God. And I wanted people to have an insight on how it shaped my life and my world. And I fought against the evangelical teachings that sought to marginalize me. I want you to read something. We always ask authors to read a piece of their book. Okay. This is an excerpt from my book, "I Once Was Lost: My Search for God in America." These days, a lot of people here and abroad associate the American flag with the most bellicose, narrow-minded ideology, because the ones waving that flag loudest and hardest are bellicose, narrow-minded ideologues. They wave the flag as a symbol of the America they envision,

• 49:15Speaker 04

  a country that belongs to them by divine right, not the United States we all share. And to drive that point home, they carried the Stars and Stripes alongside the Stars and Bars of the Confederacy, a treasonous junta that literally tore the United States apart in a bloody effort to preserve slavery as an economic engine. The term "Christian nationalism" rings out with faux-nobility, but it's a wolf in sheep's clothing, white supremacy cloaked in evangelical religiosity.

• 49:47Alec Baldwin?

  This section is some of the best writing in the book, I must say. Now, the other thing I want to say is, for me, I want people to take that idea, how we can reframe all that discussion about what it means to be a patriot and be an American. And you're one of many people who've pursued that in this book. But what I got from this book was your-- it's a call. It's a call to say to people, "We all need to take a break from this world, this loud, cacophonous, commercialized world, and take a moment to connect with something spiritual." It doesn't have to be a religion. To just connect to something where we can settle ourselves. How can you calm yourself and make yourself the better you on a day-to-day basis? I mean, I get this from this book.

• 50:27Speaker 04

  Look, do you realize that you answered that question earlier? When you said that no matter how someone treats you or who they are when you meet someone, you try to approach them as if they're going through something.

• 50:39Alec Baldwin?

  What are they going through?

• 50:39Speaker 04

  What are they going through? And so, as I write in here, I believe that what's important to convey is that we keep trying to-- most people keep trying to find-- look at, you know, create God in their own image, when we should be looking for God's image in other people. And as long as you do that, I think that's the answer. That's how you settle yourself. When you're talking about this, about patriotism, I say in this book that as a-- Black man, I have a complicated relationship with the flag. And as a gay man, I have a complicated relationship with the Bible. But I was able to overcome that by using critical thinking and trying to find love

• 51:22Speaker 04

  in my fellow men, rather than judging people and trying to create God in my own image.

• 51:27Alec Baldwin?

  You think you have your doubts about, everybody comes out of, it's like having a baby, you write a book and when it's done, you're like, oh, I'm never doing that again. But the thing is, you write these books because I have a theory, which is that these are bricks. These are bricks. And this is one of your bricks that you're building, a library, a world library. These are bricks. I have a theory where when the aliens come and take over and destroy this world, they're gonna erase every tape and every CD and every DVD. That's just garbage. And they're gonna pick up a book and they go, now what's this? And they're gonna want, because this is more thoughtful, this is more you, more of your heart is in this. I mean, your work in television is exemplary, but I mean, I don't want you to give up writing books.

• 52:04Speaker 04

  Thank you, Alec. I think you're right. It's like, we have all of these photographs in our cell phones, and then where do they go when we're not here? When I go to your house, right, your family's there, you're there, but I'm looking at the pictures on the wall, and I go around and I look, and where's this from? Where's this moment from? But no one goes into your phone and does that. And that's the same thing that you're saying about the books and erasing things that are digital, because...

• 52:25Alec Baldwin?

  They're of the moment.

• 52:26Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 52:27Alec Baldwin?

  Thank you.

• 52:27Speaker 04

  Thank you.

• 52:31Alec Baldwin?

  My thanks to Don Lemon. Here's the Thing is recorded at CDM Studios in New York City. This episode was produced by Kathleen Russo, Zach McNeese, and Maureen Holben. Our engineer is Frank Imperial. Our social media manager is Danielle Gingrich. I'm Alec Baldwin. Here's the Thing is brought to you by iHeart Radio.

• 53:14Speaker 09

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• 54:21Speaker 12

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• 54:24Speaker 12

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• 54:27Speaker 08

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• 54:28Speaker 12

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• 54:29Speaker 08

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• 54:32Speaker 08

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• 54:36Speaker 08

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• 54:37Speaker 12

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• 54:38Speaker 08

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• 54:42Speaker 10

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