Pod Insights Tooth & Claw: True Stories of Animal Attacks The Grizzly Deaths of Timothy Treadwell and Amie Huguenard, Part 1: Timothy Treadwell's Rise to Prominence About this episode After 4 years of waiting, Wes finally takes us through our most requested story: the tragic story of Timothy Treadwell, the Grizzly Man, and Amie Huguenard, who met their end when they were killed by an Alaskan Brown Bear in 2003. In this episode, we learn about Timothy's upbringing, how his passion for bears had its genesis, and how he was viewed by both people in the bear world and the public at large. We follow him at both the idyllic Grizzly Sanctuary and the chaotic Grizzly Maze, where he would spend 13 summers living with huge brown bears. We also hear about his motivations for being there with the bears, some completely fabricated and others relateably genuine. Finally, before ending episode one, Wes takes us to another location on the Alaska coast, where in the year 2000, a man is killed by a coastal brown bear and many people in the bear world feel as though Timothy might be racing toward a similar end.
Watch here: The Grizzly Deaths of Timothy Treadwell and Amie Huguenard - Part 1
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Transcript 20,081 words · 6 speakers
Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.
0:12 Speaker 00 It's good work. I feel good about it. I feel good about myself doing it. And I want to continue, and I hope I can, I really hope I can. But if not, be warned, I will die for these animals. I will die for these animals. I will die for these animals.
0:28 Wes Larson? Be warned, guys. I will die for this podcast. I will die for this podcast. I will die for this podcast. Welcome back to Tooth and Claw, everyone. Thanks so much for being here. We are really excited for today's episode. I'm Wes Larson. I'm a bear biologist. I've been working with bears since about 2012. And I'm here with my two co-hosts, my little brother Jeff. Jeff, you want to introduce yourself?
0:51 Jeff Larson? Hi, yeah, I'm Jeff. I'm Wes's little brother. I've worked with bears a little bit with Wes, black bears, and I'm just excited to be here.
1:02 Wes Larson? And Mike, our best friend.
1:04 Mike Smith? Hey, I'm the producer of the podcast. I've worked with Wes in helping him move into his apartment a couple of times. It's really about as far as our professional.
1:14 Wes Larson? Yeah, I gave you a coat.
1:16 Jeff Larson? Wes was like, who's that guy who helped me move into my apartment? Maybe we could get him as like our third person.
1:22 Wes Larson? Let's do a podcast together. Yeah, anyway, we're Tooth and Claw. On this podcast, we talk about animal attacks. We talk about why they happen, what we can learn from them, and how often the media gets them wrong. And today, we're talking about probably the biggest story that we've done so far, the one that we've definitely been recommended the most, and I'm really excited for it. Are you guys excited?
1:44 Jeff Larson? You found this story through listeners sending in, right?
1:49 Wes Larson? Never, never heard of this guy before now, but really it was fun to learn about him. No, actually, that's, it's funny you should say that because when I started my career as a bear expert, I was doing office work for Tom Smith because he like wasn't promising me anything, but he gave me kind of an office job. And me and him would just talk. Talk about bear attacks all the time. And over time, that conversation naturally drifted to the most famous bear attack probably of all time. And the more I spent around, the more time I spent around Tom, the more I learned about Timothy Treadwell. And when he was doing his years living with the bears, Tom was working for the USGS and Cat My as a bear biologist.
2:30 Wes Larson? And he had lots of run ins with Timothy and he has like personal correspondence between him and Timothy. And he would like call him Timmy or Timmy the bear when we talked. It was really funny.
2:41 Mike Smith? That's great.
2:41 Wes Larson? But I think Tom like finally realized he wasn't getting to get rid of me. He decided to bring me on as a student. And when he did that, he was like, hey, I want to show you Treadwell's autopsy photos. And for me, that was something I was very excited to see.
2:57 Mike Smith? For sure.
2:58 Jeff Larson? Like I'm not. Step Brothers meme where it's like, did we just become best friends?
3:05 Wes Larson? Looking at like the worst photos in the world. Yeah. And, and I'll admit, like, I was excited to see him and the mortician that you see in the film Grizzly Man, which we're going to talk about a lot.
3:16 Jeff Larson? No, I got some thoughts on him.
3:18 Wes Larson? Yeah. He, he sent these photos to Tom and to a bunch of other bear biologists and they contain a lot of different attack photos. But Treadwell's highlighted in them. And I don't know if it was like Tom's way of trying to give me a respect for bears. Or if he was just saw like a kindred spirit in me, but either way, he was right. So in these photos, you can see Timothy and Amy's faces just like locked in agony. Timothy's been mostly consumed, his head in his spinal column and both arms are pieced together on the table. And they look fake. They look like a horror movie set. The skin on his head is split open down to the bone. He's mostly scalped.
4:00 Wes Larson? There's very little that's left of him intact. And I think even less of Amy. And they're like truly horrific. Jeff, you've seen them. Mike, have you seen those photos?
4:09 Mike Smith? Yeah. When you posted them on Instagram a couple of weeks ago, right?
4:12 Wes Larson? On Instagram.
4:14 Mike Smith? No, I've never seen him. Maybe I don't want to. I don't know.
4:17 Wes Larson? You're going to. I'm gonna show them to you in the next episode. They're, they're pretty bad. And they're, they're truly horrific. And for me, they actually did change the way that I viewed bears. Like it gave me a whole new respect for them. And I've thought about Timothy more than I can quantify since that day. It's definitely been the attack that I've thought about the most. It's been the number one most requested story for our podcast. And I really hope we can do it justice. It's really complicated and really simple all at once. So the wait's finally over.
4:49 Jeff Larson? You already spoiled it.
4:52 Wes Larson? Yeah. This guy doesn't survive, but we're finally gonna tell.
4:56 Jeff Larson? I do think too, there are probably like a small amount of people who don't know who he was or anything. So that'd be interesting for them.
5:05 Wes Larson? They're about to learn a lot more about him than they ever bargained for. Yeah, this is the tragic story of Timothy Treadwell and Amy Huguenard. All right. So not only is this the story that was most requested for us, but it also probably is the story that we've covered that has the most information out there about it. There's books, TV shows, articles, and of course, the documentary Grizzly Man, directed by Werner Herzog, which may be my favorite documentary ever. I love this, this documentary. It's so good. I consulted all of them. I consulted a lot of different sources. There was two that I used the most, that I read multiple times. One is this book, The Death in, or Death in the Grizzly Maze by Mike Lipinski.
5:48 Wes Larson? Uh, and then the second book is on my iPad, but it's The Grizzly Maze, Timothy Treadwell's Fatal Obsession with Alaskan Bears by Nick Janz.
5:58 Mike Smith? Well, you also personally consulted with Werner, right? Which is pretty sweet.
6:03 Wes Larson? Yeah. I had a one and a half, or about an hour long car ride with Werner Herzog, where me and him got to talk about Timothy the entire time.
6:11 Mike Smith? That's so cool.
6:12 Wes Larson? Yeah, it was the most interesting car ride of my life. And he was just everything I ever expected him to be. He gave me like a two-handed handshake afterwards and just said it was like such a fun car ride. It was.
6:22 Jeff Larson? Oh, two hands. Wow.
6:24 Wes Larson? Yeah. I'll always remember. I gave his wife a hug.
6:27 Jeff Larson? Can you imagine if Paul Hollywood gave a two-handed handshake?
6:32 Wes Larson? Oh, man. Someone's head would explode.
6:36 Wes Larson? In the most recent season, he gives a handshake and the guy grabs it with his other hand and I could tell.
6:41 Jeff Larson? Oh, yeah.
6:42 Wes Larson? That dude is just sucking up that handshake. Yeah, so I, I, there's a lot of information. I really dove into it. I've been thinking about this and researching this one for weeks. Definitely the most time I've put into one so far. But I would recommend those two books. If you want to learn more, there's a lot we're gonna have to leave out. And if you want just the whole complete story, those two books are great.
7:05 Jeff Larson? I got time if you want to just put it all in.
7:08 Wes Larson? Just read the books? Should I just read them?
7:10 Jeff Larson? Just don't leave anything out.
7:12 Wes Larson? Yeah, first tooth and claw, five parter. Let's go. I didn't leave out a ton. And this, this is gonna be two parts. There's a chance it'll trickle into three and we'll definitely have a subscriber episode or two based around this. I think I might try and get Tom on the phone and see if he's willing to be on an episode with us, talk about Timothy. But, um, one other thing I wanted to bring up is the art for these episodes was done by Alyssa Gonzalez. It's been really fun working with Alyssa on this particular art. Really thrilled with how it turned out. So, thank you Alyssa for helping us.
7:44 Jeff Larson? Did a great job.
7:46 Wes Larson? Yeah, her at is GonsArtist on Instagram, so check her out.
7:52 Wes Larson? Okay, so we're gonna start on episode one and episode one is about Timothy Treadwell's rise to prominence.
8:00 Wes Larson? So in 1989, Timothy Treadwell was a 32-year-old bartender in California whose main possession was probably his substance abuse problem. He was trying and failing to break into Hollywood. He had hit rock bottom and a friend suggested that he take a trip to Alaska and reconnect with nature. Specifically, this friend said that he should try to see some grizzly bears in the wild. So, this sounded like just the ticket for Timothy, a road trip up to Alaska. So in the summer of 89, he hopped on a motorcycle packed with a cheap tent, a cheaper sleeping bag, and a point-and-shoot film camera, and he rode all the way up to Alaska. I will say like, we're gonna, we're gonna say a lot of things about Timothy in these
8:42 Wes Larson? episodes. One thing that I don't think anyone can really cast too much doubt on is he was really tough. Like, he did really hard stuff and didn't really complain about it at all. Like, I think this is one of the tougher people that we've covered, and not in like a macho kind of, like, wearing it on their sleeve way, like, just innately, very, very tough. For sure. Yeah, riding a motorcycle to Alaska really highlights that. So he actually saw his first bear while he was hiking in Wrangell St. Elias National Park, which is this really big, large, sprawling park. It's just southeast of Anchorage, and it was a pretty typical sighting for an inland grizzly bear. The bear saw him, looked at him for a few seconds,
9:25 Wes Larson? sniffed the air, and then sprinted away into the brush. Timothy had this impression like, oh, this is an animal that has a really healthy fear of humans. And it left him really excited, but kind of underwhelmed, because he really wanted to, like, connect with the bears. He needed the bears to understand that he wasn't like other humans, that he wasn't a threat, and he felt like if he could just get close to one, it would understand that he wanted to be its friend, that he wanted to, like, live among it. Yeah.
9:53 Jeff Larson? He almost, like, felt bad that he scared the bear, like, you don't understand.
9:57 Wes Larson? Yeah, that's exactly how he felt. Like, he felt like the bear had misunderstood his intentions.
10:02 Jeff Larson? Yeah.
10:02 Wes Larson? So he left for Katmai National Park on that trip, and he had heard that it was one of the best places in Alaska to see giant grizzly bears or brown bears up close. And on a rainy afternoon in 1989, Timothy walked a well-used bear trail in Katmai, and he started seeing tons of piles of bear scat. So he's like, okay, I'm in the right place. He sits down and he waits, and he's sure that a bear's gonna pass at any minute. And he sits there for hours in the rain, getting eaten alive by mosquitoes. And by 11:00 PM, it's Alaskan summer, it's starting to get kind of dark, and he's so frustrated that he's on the verge of tears, that he hasn't seen a bear. But he's about to get exactly what he wanted, maybe a little bit more than he wanted.
10:47 Wes Larson? As he's walking back along the trail toward his camp, he looks up to see two large Alaskan brown bears ambling down the trail toward him and his adrenaline spikes. He starts shakily kind of singing to these bears and then he's backing away slowly while he's doing this and he's thrilled that both of these bears just kind of veer off into the bush. It works. He gets like, he realizes like, oh, there, I got really close to them, but they wanted nothing to do with me. So he's really excited and then suddenly some movement catches his eye. He looks back up in the trail and there's a huge 1,000 pound male coming down the trail toward him and it's getting dark, it's raining. He gets
11:28 Wes Larson? nervous again. He starts singing and backing up, but when a bear's this big, just them walking slowly, they still move at a pretty good clip. And so he can't back up as fast as this bear is walking toward him and he stumbles in this wet mud and falls face first into the mud and immediately just curls up into the fetal position. And you just have to imagine he's just waiting for this bear to tear into him.
11:54 Mike Smith? Hmm. Tough to keep singing in that circumstance.
11:57 Wes Larson? Yeah. But instead of feeling claws and teeth tearing into him, what he actually felt was the coarse hair and the soft belly of this bear as it brushes on his shoulder as it carefully steps over him and continues down the path.
12:12 Jeff Larson? Oh, wow. That bear did not give a [bleep].
12:15 Wes Larson? Didn't. No.
12:16 Jeff Larson? Just like, I'm not even going to like veer off my path at all. Just walking straight over you.
12:25 Wes Larson? Yeah, that's pretty crazy. So he rises to his feet, a different person. He felt like this hypothesis that he had that bears would be able to recognize his good intentions and accept him was proven correct. And as he walks back to his camp, he's feeling euphoric and he starts repeating the mantra, "Thank you, bears. Thank you, bears." So I can't help but think, had this bear swatted him or bit into him or just clawed him up a little bit? This whole story might have never happened. He might have realized like, oh, bears are pretty dangerous. I need to be pretty careful around bears. Yeah, but it didn't.
13:02 Mike Smith? It's an interesting thought.
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14:33 Jeff Larson? Tooth and Claw is brought to you by Unbound Marino. I just want to genuinely tell you how much I love the clothes I just got from Unbound Marino. I got a cardigan, which like, I don't know, I've never really had a nice cardigan before, and I'm pretty excited about it. It's too cold for it some days, and I just tough it out because I want to wear my cardigan around.
14:57 Mike Smith? Looks great on you.
14:58 Jeff Larson? I got some wool pants, which I also have really enjoyed so far. Far they're like a slim fit, which I don't always love, but these ones work like they don't look like I'm wearing like leggings or something and they don't like restrict me. Another awesome thing about Unbound is that so it's a clothing company made by travelers for travelers. We've been traveling a lot recently and there's kind of a thing where like your most comfortable clothes pack really like small and light, but they don't always look presentable. And then your more presentable clothes a lot of times take up a lot of space. And that's one of the best things about Unbound is it looks extremely presentable, but it's also like packs
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15:45 Wes Larson? I got their travel hoodie, which I'm really excited for because it's not like too thick for a plane, but it's like just warm enough that I think it'll be perfect for for flying.
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16:52 Wes Larson? All right, guys. So we're going to step into our little tooth and claw time machine. And you know what? We're not going to go back and kill baby Hitler. We are going to go back to 1957 to Timothy's birth and childhood. There'll be plenty of time to go back to whenever he was born and murder him. But right now we got a we got other fish to fish.
17:15 Mike Smith? Priorities, I guess. Bad ones, but priorities.
17:20 Wes Larson? So I want to mention here, I didn't read Timothy Treadwell's book that was written by him and his longtime friend, Jewel Palovac. I have a few reasons for that. One of the main ones-
17:31 Jeff Larson? Maybe we could use the time machine so you can read it before we do the episode.
17:35 Wes Larson? Go back a couple of days and read his book.
17:39 Wes Larson? Now, one of the main reasons I didn't read it is because he's actually an unreliable narrator. And I didn't really want to mix up facts with a lot of the tall tales that he told.
17:47 Jeff Larson? Yeah, I think you get that impression from watching Grizzly Man like-
17:51 Wes Larson? Yeah, concocted.
17:53 Jeff Larson? There's a scene where he's like-
17:54 Wes Larson? Australian persona.
17:56 Jeff Larson? Like with his girlfriend and he just emphasizes how alone he is being alone out there like five times.
18:05 Wes Larson? Yeah, he also was famous for creating like personas. He was pretending to be British for a long time, like a Cockney accent or Australian. He said that he was born in the Australian bush as an orphan. So much so that when he died-
18:19 Mike Smith? Born as an orphan, wow.
18:21 Wes Larson? Yeah.
18:22 Mike Smith? That's tough.
18:23 Wes Larson? I didn't say that right, but you know what I mean.
18:26 Mike Smith? Immaculate, some might even say.
18:30 Wes Larson? So much so that when he died, a lot of the articles that were published about him like kind of weren't sure if he was Australian or what. So I bring this all up just to say there's a fair amount of doubt about what we can actually believe about Timothy's life. Especially his early years and his time in California. But Mike Lipinski, who wrote Death in the Grizzly Maze, did talk to Timothy's mom, Carol Dexter, in his book. And I do think that represents one of the more factual sources for information on his early years. So he was born in 1957 and he was born Timothy Dexter in Long Island, New York, into a typical middle-class neighborhood. He's the third of five children.
19:11 Wes Larson? And I felt a lot of kinship with young Timothy learning about him because he was by all accounts, just completely obsessed with animals. And from an early age, he'd pretend to be different animals or like live among different animals non-stop. He had pet squirrels, he had pet all sorts of things. He also got his hands on pretty much any animal he could catch, but he never wanted to harm any of them. He just wanted to like be around them. It made him happy. He was really hyperactive. He had a hard time paying attention in school. So Jeff, you could have some, you know-
19:43 Jeff Larson? I can relate there for sure.
19:44 Wes Larson? Yeah, kinship with him too.
19:47 Wes Larson? But he got decent grades and he excelled athletically, especially when it came to diving. He really didn't have many friends or girlfriends when he was young. And a lot of the people that did know him say that was probably because he had this habit of being really explosive with people. And getting into lots of fights over just about anything.
20:06 Jeff Larson? Mike, you can relate to that part.
20:08 Wes Larson? Yeah, exactly.
20:09 Mike Smith? Exploding, yeah.
20:11 Jeff Larson? No girlfriends.
20:12 Wes Larson? Oh, well, I mean. Burn.
20:16 Jeff Larson? Actually, I think Mike's only one of us who had a girlfriend in high school.
20:20 Wes Larson? Yeah, I didn't have one.
20:22 Mike Smith? Truly peaked.
20:23 Wes Larson? Those, those demons would follow him into his teenage years and he started drinking a lot. He got arrested a few times and he ended up crashing the family car while drunk. But he was so good at diving that he still ended up getting a scholarship to Bradley University in Illinois. And there's actually a lot of fake news out there, fake articles. That say that his family cut ties with him after crashing the car, but that's not true. He loved his family, they loved him, even though he's kind of a tricky kid. And I'm sure they were really hopeful that this scholarship to a really good liberal arts university would straighten him out. Unfortunately, he was injured and he lost his scholarship. And then not long after, he dropped out of university in his third year.
21:08 Wes Larson? When that happened, he moved to Long Beach, California. So he's lived in Long Island and now Long Beach, loves places that are long.
21:16 Jeff Larson? Long places.
21:19 Wes Larson? And he started working as a bartender and a struggling actor. In 1987, he changed his name to Timothy Treadwell. He liked the alliteration and Treadwell was a family name on his mom's side. I think it's a great rebranding. It's much better than Timothy Dexter. Especially for what he ended up doing. According to him and some close acquaintances, he got pretty heavily into drugs. There's this tale out there, who knows if this is true, cuz he's the only one that really has told it. He says that he lost the role of Woody Boyd in Cheers to Woody Harrelson.
21:54 Jeff Larson? The bartender, yeah. His dad says that in the documentary.
21:59 Wes Larson? Yeah, cuz Timothy told them that. And he said that like, the role was his, and then it was given to Woody Harrelson. But also, like, the character's name is Woody, you know? You gotta give it to Woody Harrelson.
22:10 Jeff Larson? Woody Harrelson was like, a perfect choice.
22:13 Wes Larson? Yeah, and that is what like, launched his career, but.
22:16 Jeff Larson? To back Timothy up in his claim, I think the dad seemed like one of the most skeptical people of stuff Timothy says, and he kinda believed that one, so.
22:28 Wes Larson? Totally. But like I said, a lot of this stuff from this time period is all, you have to rely on Timothy to know if it's true or not. But there's no big reason to doubt that.
22:39 Jeff Larson? And that would suck, like, if you're trying to be an actor and you got really close to like, the huge break and it just doesn't follow your way.
22:48 Wes Larson? Biggest shows of all time, yeah.
22:50 Mike Smith? And he's very obviously, he's got a screen presence and a charisma that is very conducive to like, a Hollywood persona like that. So, I can buy it, but yeah, come in second place to Woody Harrelson still. Nothing to say to that, you know?
23:04 Jeff Larson? But he handles it pretty well, right? Losing that part?
23:08 Wes Larson? He doesn't. So he drops into a deep depression. He really hits rock bottom with drugs and alcohol. In the late eighties, he's working in this like, Renaissance themed restaurant or medieval restaurant, and he meets Jewel Palovac, yeah, who also works there. She turns into a lover and a girlfriend for a few years, and then just a friend, a really close friend. And they share a small apartment in Malibu. And a really key thing about Timothy during this part of his life, and really his whole life, is that he can't accept people thinking that he's ordinary. He feels like he has something special inside of him, so much so that he would put on this Cockney accent, or an Australian accent when he met people, and spin these crazy
23:52 Wes Larson? tales about fighting with drug dealers, or growing up in the Australian bush, just because he wanted people to see him as extraordinary. And he's constantly reinventing himself.
24:03 Jeff Larson? Sometimes it's better just to be ordinary, if you ask me, than to give yourself a Cockney accent.
24:10 Wes Larson? Totally.
24:11 Mike Smith? He probably watched Mary Poppins and was like, oh, that Dick Van Dyke guy. I want to sound like him.
24:18 Wes Larson? That's some, some real niche.
24:21 Mike Smith? Oh, come on. Are you kidding me right now? That's like the most mainstream.
24:26 Wes Larson? It's not, he's not, he doesn't pull it off very well. I know what you're talking about, but I get what you're saying.
24:34 Wes Larson? Anyway, as he's constantly reinventing himself, one thing remains constant. And that's his deep love for animals and the natural world.
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26:04 Mike Smith? This episode is brought to you by Aura. Isn't it funny?
26:09 Mike Smith? This is about to be funny, so get ready to laugh.
26:11 Wes Larson? I can't wait.
26:11 Mike Smith? How the people we love most are often the hardest to shop for. Luckily, there's one gift that everyone on your list is sure to enjoy. An Aura digital picture frame. And I can personally vouch for this. I've given away a couple that Aura has sent to us, to people. And it's been by far the most well-received gift I've ever given. And that probably says a lot about me and kind of like my misguided approach to giving people stuff. But also, it's genuine happiness. It's such an easy product to set up and get going. It's like two minutes out of the box with the Aura app. You're up and ready to go. All your pictures just streaming digitally to this picture frame that shuffles through all your best stuff. It's amazing.
26:50 Wes Larson? Yeah, I also, I feel like their price point is like just at the right spot where you're not being like, you're not giving like a cheap gift, but you're also not like breaking the bank to give them something really, really nice.
27:02 Mike Smith? Yeah, for sure. And more than just like, I'm not much of a photographer. So like, I have a little bit of an unorthodox use case going on with mine. I take like little screenshots of funny memes or pictures of comics.
27:15 Wes Larson? Anime, girls.
27:15 Mike Smith? Mostly anime. That's a gross mischaracterization of what I've got going on.
27:20 Wes Larson? We see it behind you sometimes while we're recording.
27:23 Mike Smith? It's the one, it's the one piece cover pages, which sometime feature women. Like most good fictional stories include women. It's a normal thing. But anyway, I'm trying to say that no matter what kind of pictures you want to send to it, you can. So if you have like, you're not the most.
27:41 Wes Larson? Photographically inclined?
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28:14 Wes Larson? All right. So we're gonna hop back in our time machine. Seems like we forgot to do something, but whatever. We'll get back in.
28:21 Mike Smith? Next time.
28:23 Wes Larson? We're gonna go back to 1989 and back to Timothy getting stepped over by this bear. He goes back to California and he doesn't drink for a month. He's changed and he starts planning a summer trip for the next year back to Katmai. So that comes up, the next summer comes along, he's just kind of working as a bartender and everything, just saving money for these expeditions to Alaska, living really on a budget so he can spend the money to go to Alaska and see more bears. And this time in 1990, he flies into the middle of nowhere in coastal Katmai, sets up his camp in a huge green field where dozens of bears are
29:02 Wes Larson? regularly seen grazing on these green grasses and sedges and waiting for salmon. And Timothy discovers that he's actually pretty good at reading bear behavior and really good at getting super close to them, like close enough to touch them. And that first summer camping alone in this huge field, he makes a promise to God and he says he'll stop drinking and devote his life to those bears. So there's a, there's a really tolerant female bear that he meets pretty early on.
29:31 Jeff Larson? Well, the first half was great.
29:38 Wes Larson? Anyway, there's this really tolerant female bear that seems to just completely accept his presence. And he gets so familiar with this bear that he names her Boobal.
29:49 Wes Larson? And she becomes, that's funny that that was his first name.
29:51 Jeff Larson? That's his first name.
29:55 Jeff Larson? She becomes thirty bear names. That's the number one. That's great.
29:59 Wes Larson? He's got some great names. We're gonna talk about that later, but this is one of the better ones in my opinion. She becomes one of the dozens of bears that he would name during his 13 summers in Katmai. He also calls this area that he found in quotation marks, "the grizzly sanctuary." And he decides that it's his life's mission to protect this area and protect these bears that call it home. All right, we're gonna do a little biology, history, and geography here. First of all, Timothy repeatedly calls these bears grizzlies. He's known as the grizzly man. This was the grizzly sanctuary. He would go on to form a nonprofit with Jewel that is called Grizzly People.
30:41 Wes Larson? And technically, these bears can be considered grizzlies. They're the same species as what we commonly call grizzlies. But just about any bear biologist in the world is gonna refer to these bears as either Alaskan Peninsula brown bears or just coastal brown bears.
30:58 Jeff Larson? But they're brown bears. Don't they also call them Kodiak grizzlies or something?
31:02 Wes Larson? In a second, so a Kodiak, or actually, we might as well just do it now. A Kodiak brown bear or a Kodiak grizzly is this animal that lives in Kodiak. And they, because they're on this separate island from all these other bears, and there's so many of them, they're the, actually, the only accepted subspecies of brown bear in North America. They are Ursus arctos midendorfi. And all the other bears, even though people say grizzlies are Ursus arctos horibilis, that's not an accepted subspecies. The rest of them are all the same.
31:34 Jeff Larson? Everyone's always saying that to me.
31:35 Wes Larson? Yeah. It's a great subspecies name, but it's not one that's accepted.
31:40 Jeff Larson? And they're typically like larger than other bears, right?
31:43 Wes Larson? Exactly.
31:44 Jeff Larson? It's like Andre the Giant and Hulk Hogan. Like Hulk Hogan was big, sure, but Andre the Giant was just bigger.
31:51 Wes Larson? Yeah, sure. Yeah.
31:54 Wes Larson? Yeah, so that's great that you bring that up, Jeff. But really quick, just to like nail this in, the rest of the world calls these animals brown bears. Grizzly is just a North American nickname.
32:06 Jeff Larson? Oh, really?
32:07 Wes Larson? Yeah. Okay, we're gonna get into like the difference between grizzlies and brown bears, interior grizzlies and coastal brown bears in a second. We don't want to get too in the weeds here, but it's really important to know that inland grizzlies behave much more differently than coastal brown bears. And that's a big reason that Timothy was able to get so close to these bears and spend so much time around them before he was killed. I think he liked using the name grizzly because it sounds really like dangerous and ferocious, and he played off of that. But if he was actually around grizzlies as we know them, it would be a different story, I think.
32:46 Jeff Larson? Well, he can't really call himself like the brown man either.
32:49 Wes Larson? Brown man, yeah. Brown people is the name of his. Non-probable. Not a great name. So in The Grizzly Maze, the book by Nick Janz, there's something I really liked that he said. And he compared inland grizzlies to coastal brown bears. And he said, it's like comparing a Labrador with a pit bull because they are the same species, but behaviorally, they're very different. And a big part of that reason is food. Coastal brown bears have a plethora of good food options. They have tons of resources. The ocean brings them clams. There's dead marine mammals, salmon runs, this really thick sedges and grass, berries and vegetation.
33:32 Wes Larson? And with that much food available, bears really don't have to compete at the same level. So they're able to share space and kind of all access these different resources. And that makes them much more tolerant of other bears and much more tolerant of other animals in general, including humans. They're just really well fed and happy.
33:51 Jeff Larson? It's the hangry concept.
33:53 Wes Larson? Yeah, it is. If everyone's just getting plenty of food, like, why fight for it? You know, like, why risk anything if you have everything you need? So that's kind of how these bears operate. So Katmai, where Timothy was, in the 80 something years before him, that that place had existed and been known as Katmai, he, no one had been killed by a bear. This was like the, probably the highest density of brown bears in the world, and no one had ever been killed by one there.
34:24 Jeff Larson? That's interesting.
34:25 Wes Larson? Yeah. So interior grizzlies have to spend a lot more time searching for and defending their food, and it makes them much more cantankerous and unpredictable. So if Timothy had tried to do what he did among like the grizzlies of Brooks Range, Alaska, or in Tom Miner Basin in Montana, he probably would have seen a lot of bears running away and then been charged a lot more than he was. So I think he would have had a whole different view of what grizzlies are. Even though these bears are really tolerant and really well fed, they're still wild animals. They're still powerful predators. Just this year, can either of you tell me what happened right before Fat Bear Week? That tons of people saw on a live camera?
35:05 Jeff Larson? Yeah, that one fat bear killed the other fat bear.
35:08 Mike Smith? Yeah, not a good display of sportsmanship.
35:11 Wes Larson? Yeah, and I mean, there was plenty of food. The salmon wasn't bad this year.
35:15 Jeff Larson? Double up its size right before the contest.
35:19 Wes Larson? Just eating another bear. I can't remember if that one won. I don't even know who won this year. But um, I doubt they gave it to that one.
35:27 Jeff Larson? I think it lost a lot of its steam when that happened.
35:30 Wes Larson? Yeah, so yeah, like you said, Jeff, a bear got killed this year at Brooks Falls. They have some pretty intense fights and sometimes it leads to dead bears. And Timothy saw this. He saw cannibalism. He saw all sorts of stuff while he was there. But I think the thing-
35:46 Jeff Larson? But he handled it very rationally.
35:47 Wes Larson? Yeah, he always, he always just saw it through a completely scientific lens. Over the years, though, one thing that he did learn, and he learned this really well, was that dominance is everything to these bears. And that when he acted dominant and stood his ground, or even advanced on a bear that was acting aggressively, it was almost always enough to stop the interaction.
36:09 Jeff Larson? Oh, he would try to stop it?
36:11 Wes Larson? Yeah, because the bear would be charging him or whatever. And when he acted dominant, like ran at the bear, often these bears are like, oh, I didn't expect that.
36:19 Jeff Larson? That's surprising to me. I don't know, because a lot of times if a bear does that to another bear, like they still end up like kind of wrestling a little bit, I feel like. But when it was Timothy, they would like not engage.
36:32 Wes Larson? Yeah, I think he knew like where to stop it, you know? Like if the bear kept coming, then he would back down. But yeah, those bears, sometimes they're like, no, let's fight, you know? And Timothy never wanted to fight with them. So I think when the bear pushed him, then he would back off. And that's usually enough to stop it too.
36:50 Speaker 00 Occasionally I am challenged, and in that case, the kind warrior must, must, must become a samurai. Must become so-
36:59 Speaker 00 So formidable, so fearless of death, so strong that you will win, you will win. Even the bears will believe that you are more powerful.
37:11 Wes Larson? So he, I mean, he's not wrong about this, like being dominant with the bear like this. That's pretty conflict averse. It's kind of like the same strategy as a black bear. They don't really want to fight. They have plenty of food. There's not a good reason to engage, so it can be really effective and.
37:30 Jeff Larson? Do you think Samurai is the right choice of a warrior to like summon?
37:34 Wes Larson? I think it's the nerdiest choice to summon, so I think it fits pretty well. I feel like whenever anyone compares themselves to a Samurai and they're like white. I'm always like, oh my God, okay, here we go.
37:47 Mike Smith? But you weren't, didn't like the last Samurai very much?
37:50 Wes Larson? I liked the last Samurai, but um, anyway. Okay, so he, this is his strategy and it works because why fight if you don't need to fight? Especially some strange animal that you don't really even know how it works. And in the early years, he actually did carry bear spray, just in case things got a little crazy. But one of his favorite bears, Cupcake, who often charged him, so that name's a little ironic, charged in and he thought it was going to make contact with them and he sprayed Cupcake. And the effect that it had on this bear broke his heart. He felt like he had injured the bear. He had caused agony to this bear and he vowed never to use bear spray again.
38:32 Wes Larson? And to be honest, like he gets a lot of hate for this decision among bear biologists. I kind of agree with it because I think if you're going to put yourself among bears and live with them and constantly kind of harass them, you shouldn't just be spraying them. Like you're putting yourself in that position. I don't think it's fair to spray a bear at that point because you're.
38:54 Jeff Larson? Asking a bear to.
38:56 Wes Larson? Right.
38:56 Jeff Larson? Get close to you, then you spray it. It's kind of like, well, you were asking it to get close to.
39:02 Wes Larson? Exactly.
39:02 Mike Smith? Not even asking, but like actively approaching and touching them yourself.
39:07 Wes Larson? Right, like it, it probably, he should have carried it, but I don't think he should be spraying bears. And it, they're fine after they get sprayed, but it does hurt for a bit. So I don't think it's really fair. So I actually kind of agree with him on that. I do think he should have had an electric fence around his camp, which is something else. A lot of people said he should have done. Yeah.
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39:58 Wes Larson? Tooth and Claws brought to you by Element. You guys have heard us talk a lot about Element. It is the product that I use every single day. It is one that I just don't ever get even slightly tired of. I'm to the point where when I just drink water without Element in it, it seems wrong.
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41:28 Mike Smith? Yeah.
41:29 Jeff Larson? People made that mistake with the cold drinks. I think it's for the hot drinks.
41:33 Mike Smith? Or toss it like your oatmeal or something. That works too.
41:36 Wes Larson? It does.
41:36 Jeff Larson? Wes, you add sugar to all yours, right?
41:39 Wes Larson? I don't.
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41:42 Wes Larson? Nope. I never add sugar to my own.
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42:30 Wes Larson? So let's talk a little bit about Timothy's Grizzly Sanctuary, or this huge green meadow of sedges that he found that's full of bears. This is actually Hallow Bay. It's a really well-known spot among bush pilots, wildlife guides, and Catmine National Park staff, and it's known as being one of the best places in the park to see bears. In fact, after the Exxon Valdez spill in 1989, a lot of the different boats and planes that were helping with the cleanup, were noticing like, oh, there's a hell of a lot of bears in this huge green meadow in Hallow Bay. And that's kind of part of what kicked off the bear viewing industry in the area.
43:09 Mike Smith? So it's good that that oil spill happened. You made that discovery?
43:13 Wes Larson? No, it's not good, but it is kind of cool that more of Catmine was kind of put on the map because of that. It's a silver lining is what I would say, Mike.
43:22 Mike Smith? Okay. Kind of like the way the oil lined the surface of the ocean and killed all those animals.
43:27 Wes Larson? It's an oil lining to this story.
43:30 Jeff Larson? It's like the rainbow in the oil.
43:33 Wes Larson? Yeah. Oh, there you go. I like that, Jeff. That was clever. This is all happening kind of at the same time that Timothy is discovering these areas. And a little bit of history, Catmai National Park was first established as a national monument in 1918 because there had just been this huge explosion of two volcanoes, like the biggest volcano explosion ever recorded in North America or in Alaska. And there's this high level of volcanic activity, so they decided to kind of set this area apart because it was so geologically significant. There's six active volcanoes in Catmai. And then it was set aside as a national park and a preserve in 1980. So Jeff, we've been to Catmai. We actually flew there.
44:15 Jeff Larson? I have? You then?
44:17 Wes Larson? No, we have together. We flew there with Timothy Treadwell's pilot, Willie Fulton.
44:21 Jeff Larson? Oh, yeah, I remember that.
44:23 Wes Larson? So can you just kind of describe what it's like coastal Catmai?
44:27 Jeff Larson? Yeah, I mean, it's, I think it's probably the most beautiful day in my life. Like Glacier National Park, I often think of for like most beautiful places, but flying in the planes through Catmai, like, I don't know, it's just, it felt like you were somewhere tropical, like the water was so light blue that like the water looks warm, even though it's freezing cold, because it's just so clear. It's so like light blue. There's like green trees everywhere and then like waterfalls everywhere. I was in the B plane, Wes was in the A plane, but it was also really cool having two planes because you could like
45:10 Jeff Larson? have a little more perspective seeing the planes like switch positions and stuff. As we were flying there is the only time I've ever seen humpback whales, but there's humpback whales breaching and we like flew over them. And then like as soon as we landed at Catmai, we saw two bears doing some pretty R rated stuff to each other.
45:34 Wes Larson? It was hot.
45:36 Wes Larson? Yeah, I would agree with you. Like, I've been a lot of places. Katmai is top three prettiest places I've ever been in my life. And flying in there on a float plane is something I'll never forget. It's really, really amazing.
45:51 Jeff Larson? And like Jeff mentioned- That pilot too was so cool, like the guy from the documentary.
45:56 Wes Larson? Does he still have that sweet mustache?
45:58 Jeff Larson? Oh, yeah.
45:59 Wes Larson? Oh, man.
45:59 Jeff Larson? Oh, it's so great.
46:01 Wes Larson? That's an all-timer. He's like, he became a friend. He's so down to earth and love Timothy. We'll talk about him a little bit more, but just a really cool person.
46:10 Jeff Larson? Well, and it's funny too, like, they flew me and Wes out. It's Filson. No free ads, but there's a free ad for Filson. But they flew me and Wes out and like had us in their clothes and stuff. And then they just like gave one to the pilot randomly and he just made it look so much cooler than like anyone else could make their clothes look.
46:30 Wes Larson? A million times better than us. Yeah. All right. So it is important to note that before this place was like discovered in quotation marks, the Alutic people had been living there for about 7,000 years before it was set aside as a national monument. I really liked the part in Grizzly Man documentary where Herzog talks to the Alutic museum operator. And he pretty much just says, "Oh yeah, we don't with bears," you know?
46:55 Jeff Larson? Well, it's interesting too. Like, I feel like the wildlife biologists kind of were a little forgiving to Timothy. And that dude was the least like, he was like, "No, that guy's kind of an idiot. I don't like that he did that."
47:08 Wes Larson? Yeah. So one question a lot of people might have is how did Timothy just go camp in a national park? And get so close to bears without getting in trouble? And this is something we're going to dive into a lot more in episode two. But just briefly, he did actually get cited six different times for violations. Everything from improper food storage to harassing other visitors. And during his 13 years in the park, they would actually go on to create a rule that some people called the Treadwell Rule. And that rule is that you had to move your campsite at least one mile after camping in a given spot for seven days. And that made things a lot harder for him. So he had to get like a boat and he would actually break that rule quite a bit.
47:50 Wes Larson? And the other rule that he was just constantly breaking is that you're not supposed to approach bears in the park closer than 50 yards. And females with cubs get at least 100 yards. So he's constantly breaking rules, but it's a big park and one where access is really limited to boats and planes. So there's not really a ton of patrolling and he gets away with a lot. And the next episode, as I mentioned, we're going to really get into his relationship with the leadership of the park. So beginning in 1990, oh, go ahead.
48:19 Jeff Larson? I think that's a good point, though, just like it's such as like, people do wonder a lot, like, how did he get away with all this? And it's like, well, like, there's not really rules when there's no people around, you know?
48:32 Wes Larson? Right. Like when we flew in, we didn't see a single other person. And like, there was no one checking a permit or anything. You can just kind of go there. Yeah. So, beginning in 1990, he makes annual trips to the Grizzly Sanctuary. He spends time in Kodiak for a bit, but bears are a little bit harder to get access to in Kodiak, especially with a lot of other people around. And more and more, he just focuses on Katmai. And while he's in Katmai, he also forms close bonds with foxes. And his tent, he tends to position really close to fox dens. He's feeding these foxes. They're smart critters. And they learn to tolerate him touching them and patting them and whatnot, because he's constantly
49:15 Wes Larson? giving them food. Timmy the fox is his favorite. He names it Timmy, and essentially is his companion in Katmai during all 13 years that he's there. And I do have to admit, it's kind of cool watching him constantly being followed by foxes.
49:30 Jeff Larson? I love it. Foxes are so cool. And like, I don't know.
49:34 Mike Smith? What was he feeding them? Where was he getting food? Was he living off the land too? Or did he, what was that all about?
49:40 Wes Larson? He would have food drop offs like every few weeks by his pilots. But he really ate, he ate like peanut butter and Tang and power bars and then like candy corn and Coke. Like, he was just eating like tons of sugar just to kind of power him through.
49:56 Mike Smith? I feel some derision in your voice. I just want you to know, that's kind of what I live off of.
50:00 Wes Larson? No, that's pretty much what I hate when Jesse's not around.
50:03 Jeff Larson? Me and Wes do when we work with bears. I was like,
50:06 Wes Larson? Oh, yeah.
50:06 Jeff Larson? Right up our alley.
50:08 Mike Smith? Yeah, Jeff would be like, what's for lunch? And I'd be like, this granola bar.
50:14 Jeff Larson? Well, what are we baiting the traps with?
50:16 Wes Larson? Yeah.
50:17 Jeff Larson? I loved when the fox stole his hat and like, I remember that part. We watched it in my wildlife biology class in high school. And like that part was like the funniest part to us because like at first he's kind of like, oh, that's cute. And then when the fox like keeps going and takes the hat to the den, he like flips a switch and it's just like.
50:40 Wes Larson? That's important to the next couple of weeks. When he suddenly sounds like Butters from South Park, too. Yeah. Uh, let's, let's play that clip really quick. Yeah.
50:50 Speaker 05 Hey, who's stealing that hat? Let me see that hat. Ghost, I want that hat.
50:57 Speaker 05 Man, ghost is bad.
51:01 Speaker 05 Ghost, what are you doing with that hat?
51:04 Speaker 05 Ghost, that hat is a very important hat. Drop it. Thanks.
51:10 Speaker 05 Oh, god damn it. I can't believe this. Ghost! Ghost, where's that hat? That hat is so friggin valuable for this trip. Ghost, you come back here with that friggin hat. If it's in the den, I'm gonna friggin explode. Ghost, where's that hat? It's not okay for you to steal it.
51:35 Speaker 05 Oh, man. Oh, man.
51:40 Speaker 05 Friggin den.
51:40 Jeff Larson? It really does sound like Butters.
51:42 Wes Larson? It does. It's so good.
51:44 Jeff Larson? I think it kind of aged well for him almost though. Because like I saw that pre like social media, I was like, this guy's absolutely insane. Like he wasn't upset. Now he's so upset.
51:57 Wes Larson? Yeah.
51:58 Jeff Larson? But like having made a little bit like, I'm like an amateur content creator, whatever you want to call me. Like having taken some pictures with bears and had some cool experiences where I have my picture with something cool. If you look stupid, it sucks. Like if you like have your underwear popping out or like your belly, your, your hair looks dumb. It's like, oh, damn it. This is such a cool picture and I look like such an idiot. So I kind of get it now. He's like out there filming all this stuff with bears and like, he just wants his hat to keep his freaking hair out of his face.
52:34 Wes Larson? Totally. Sure. Totally. And like, it's not like he can just go get another hat, you know?
52:39 Jeff Larson? Yeah.
52:41 Wes Larson? So he does obviously have his video camera with him and over his 13 years, he records over a hundred hours of video. And in my opinion, I think the video camera kind of becomes a Wilson to him, like Castaway Wilson.
52:54 Jeff Larson? Yeah, that's a good call.
52:55 Wes Larson? Where he just is spending a lot of time talking to it and it is like, almost like it's his friend or his therapist. And something I, I want to mention here is that aside from him, like always having this fascination with animals, he doesn't really have any experience in the outdoors prior to going to Alaska or any practical knowledge whatsoever when he starts. Like he, he didn't go to school as a biologist, any of that stuff. He really just views nature through these rose colored glasses. And when something unexpected or violent happens, it really shakes him. And Werner talks about this in his film, but in my opinion, like those moments make for some of his best commentary.
53:38 Wes Larson? And one of my favorite parts is where he finds this dead bee that died and it's on a flower and it's just so funny to me. So I want to play that really quick, too.
53:47 Speaker 00 So sad. This is a bumblebee who expired as it was working at doing the pollen thing on this Alaskan fireweed and it just is just, it's really touched me to no end. It, it went, it was doing its duty, it was flying around, working busy as a bee and it died right there.
54:11 Wes Larson? It died.
54:12 Speaker 00 It's beautiful, it's sad, it's tragic. I love that bee. Well, the bee moved.
54:22 Speaker 00 Is it sleeping?
54:25 Wes Larson? Is it sleeping? Oh, that's probably my favorite scene. I just love it.
54:30 Jeff Larson? Yeah, I do think too, it illustrates like this guy wasn't a scientist. Like he's just like commenting on what he's.
54:39 Wes Larson? That's exactly why I wanted to bring it up.
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56:44 Wes Larson? Okay, so when Timothy goes back to California, he's armed with these incredible photos and videos of him around bears. He sells some of these photos. He starts doing presentations around the state for young children in schools. And he and his friend Jewel sit up a lot of nights talking about how they can turn this passion into something bigger. And sometime in the early 90s, they come up with the idea of starting Grizzly People, which is a grassroots nonprofit dedicated to protecting brown bears. But what are they protecting him from?
57:17 Wes Larson? Well, since pretty much the
57:19 Jeff Larson? Right, isn't that what they say?
57:21 Wes Larson? Yeah, so he has a dual fold mission, pretty much. He asserts that he's there to both study and protect these bears. So let's start with that first one really quickly. We're not going to spend a lot of time on this because it's pretty clear cut for me. He claims that he was studying the bears and that his proximity to him, to them, gave him insights that no one else had. But bear biologists pretty much immediately refuted this claim because there had been decades of research on these bears. Even while Timothy was there, my mentor, Tom Smith, was doing a study on electric fences with these bears and what substrates work best for electric fences. So they were saying, listen, this guy isn't studying bears.
58:03 Wes Larson? He's just naming them and kind of talking about their relationships. And there's a really good quote from Tom in the book Grizzly Maze, where he talks about like reading Timothy's book, because Timothy wrote a book about his studies with brown bears and the culmination of his years of study. And Tom says, there's not one thing, not one single thing in that book that I didn't already know or that I couldn't look up in five minutes.
58:29 Jeff Larson? Oh.
58:29 Wes Larson? Which is harsh, but it's true. And I do want to play a quick, a quick clip of one of like a typical observation from Timothy.
58:37 Speaker 00 Well, here I am at the scene of the fight. It looks as if tractors tore the land up, raked it, rode it, tilted it, tossed it about. There is fur everywhere and in the camera foreground, extruded waste in the middle of the fight. So violent, so upsetting that Sergeant Brown went to the bathroom, did a number two during his fight. Extremely emotional, extremely powerful.
59:00 Wes Larson? So, you know, some real hard hitting science there. Basically, though, the stuff that Timothy was collecting was akin to the kind of stuff that the first people from like Western civilization, civilization that are arrived there to document coastal brown bear activity would have said, you know, like, oh, you know, Booble likes hanging out with Mr. Chocolate. It's just like very, very basic stuff. And I, and so I, I don't, I'm not trying to like shit on him too much. But he wasn't a bear biologist. He wasn't coming up with any hypothesis, hypotheses. He wasn't testing anything.
59:41 Wes Larson? He was just observing bears and talking about their relationships. And that's not really anything groundbreaking.
59:46 Jeff Larson? He didn't really break any ground in the bear world.
59:48 Wes Larson? Exactly, exactly.
59:50 Mike Smith? You might get to this later, but was the footage that he captured significant or important in any way scientifically?
59:56 Wes Larson? Not scientifically, but I think like his cinematography, he captured stuff that a lot of people hadn't seen. In that bear biologist, sorry, I shouldn't say that they hadn't seen, that they hadn't recorded. Bear biologists had all seen this stuff, fishermen, guides, all sorts of people have seen all the stuff that he had seen. But they hadn't captured it from such close range. So his, his video and his photos are, are quite spectacular. Like I think Timothy Treadwell was a great documentarian. Um, even just his camera presence is really impressive, I think. But he wasn't a, he wasn't a scientist. He wasn't a bear biologist, not by any, yeah.
1:00:32 Jeff Larson? One thing that I think, you can, you can say I'm wrong. One thing I think he might have taught us about bears is that with like these Kodiak grizzlies, or whatever you want to call them. Like a person could walk up and touch.
1:00:46 Wes Larson? They're not Kodiak. Yeah, yeah.
1:00:48 Jeff Larson? A person can walk up and touch them without getting attacked. Like, I don't know if that was really like proven until he did it.
1:00:56 Wes Larson? There was precedent for it already. Like Charlie Russell had lived in, in Kamchatka with, with brown bears. There's other people that had already done this stuff. And bear biologists knew that they were really tolerant bears. But they also knew that constantly being around them and constantly being this close to them is a form of harassment. You can see in his videos, these bears are never.
1:01:18 Jeff Larson? It's not like beneficial information.
1:01:20 Wes Larson? No, they're never fully comfortable around him either. Like they're constantly looking up at him. They're constantly kind of checking him out. And that bear otherwise would just be focused on fishing, focused on relaxing. So it is a form of harassment. He was harassing these bears and I, I do feel that pretty strongly. And I don't want to, again, I don't want to be too hard on him. I'm going to talk about some of the good stuff about Timothy. But the claim that he was studying them isn't true. And then even more so, the claim that he was protecting them by just being there. Isn't true.
1:01:54 Jeff Larson? Yeah, I understand why he said that because it's like, if he wanted to be out there, it's kind of like he has to have some type of purpose.
1:02:03 Wes Larson? Totally, and we're going to get into this quite a bit. So he refines that message finally by saying, he's protecting them from poachers. Basically, these poachers are going to know that he's there, that he has eyes on these bears, and that they'd be taking a big risk to kill them. He constantly asserts that he would take a bullet for Tabitha, or that he would die for these animals. And it makes sense on paper, and I think it works in a place like Africa, like East Africa, where rhinos are given bodyguards to protect them from poachers. But it's not really necessary in Katmai. Not only is it not necessary, it's completely unnecessary. I have a hard time thinking of bears somewhere in the world that are better protected than these bears.
1:02:46 Wes Larson? And there actually hadn't been a case of bear poaching in Katmai since 1970. And when they're poached illegally anywhere in Alaska, it's somewhere where people aren't going to be seen. And Hallow Bay and Kathlia Bay, which he was going to use later, are located in some of the most used parts of Katmai, and the threat of poaching there is pretty much zero. But it's the message he's selling to the public and to the donors of grizzly people, and he sells it really well. Documentaries are made about his work. He's featured in People Magazine, on Dateline, on the Tom Snyder Show. He writes a book, which Jewel helps him with pretty extensively. And in all of that media, he claims that without his presence in the grizzly sanctuary and the grizzly maze,
1:03:29 Wes Larson? people would be killing these bears for their gallbladders, for their hides, and just for what he calls a thrill kill. And this is all bullshit, and he knows it. And this is actually where I lose a lot of the little respect that I had for Timothy, because he could have just been honest and said that he loves the way that the bears make him feel. He loves taking photos and videos of them and teaching people about them. But that's not his message. He has to invent this mission, and he makes it a lot easier to raise money, and they raise a lot of it. He has wealthy private Donors, celebrity donors like Leonardo DiCaprio, Pierce Brosnan, give them a lot of money.
1:04:07 Mike Smith? Not Leo.
1:04:09 Wes Larson? Yep, Leo gives them 25K. And then he has corporate donors like Patagonia. And all of this is based on this guise that he is there protecting endangered grizzly bears from poachers. But they're not endangered and there are no poachers. In the 13 years that he lives in Katmai, he never produces a single video or photo or even piece of evidence suggesting there's poachers in the area.
1:04:33 Mike Smith? What?
1:04:33 Wes Larson? In 19, yeah.
1:04:34 Mike Smith? That one guy was like throwing a rock at that one bear.
1:04:37 Wes Larson? That was a guide. Yeah, that was a guide.
1:04:39 Mike Smith? He could have killed that bear, Wes, with that rock.
1:04:42 Wes Larson? Yeah, and that wasn't good bear behavior from that guide, but still, it wasn't a poacher.
1:04:46 Mike Smith? Yeah, for sure.
1:04:47 Jeff Larson? And also, the Treadwell had been like super close to that grizzly bear.
1:04:52 Wes Larson? Right.
1:04:52 Jeff Larson? So like, that bear was habituated to people.
1:04:55 Wes Larson? Right, that's why it's getting so close to those people. Exactly. Perfect, yeah.
1:05:00 Mike Smith? So where was that money being directed towards? That what was, was just to support his lifestyle?
1:05:05 Wes Larson? Or? Mostly these expeditions.
1:05:07 Mike Smith? Okay.
1:05:07 Wes Larson? It's expensive to fly out.
1:05:09 Jeff Larson? Funded his lifestyle.
1:05:10 Wes Larson? Yeah, I mean, he didn't have an expensive lifestyle back in Malibu. And this is where I think he gets a lot of credit, too. He, he was funneling.
1:05:17 Jeff Larson? The bears is expensive, I'm saying, like those planes and stuff.
1:05:21 Wes Larson? Yeah, he was funneling all this, this money into like better gear, into, you know, more trips, all of that. Like, he still just lives in this little apartment in Malibu when he's home. He's not like living the high life off of this money. Timothy, you can say a lot of things about Timothy. He, one thing I would argue to my death, he loved these bears. He did care about them probably more than anything else in the world. So in 1998, he does finally take a photo of someone approaching Tabitha the bear with a shotgun over his shoulder. And Patagonia actually produces a pamphlet that they distribute that calls for an end to brown bear poaching in Katmai with this photo on it. It looks like a poacher that's about to kill Tabitha.
1:06:06 Wes Larson? And the person in this photo is actually a bear guide that knew Timothy really well, that was taking photos of Tabitha, and he is very surprised to see himself in a photo talking about poachers.
1:06:18 Jeff Larson? That's crazy.
1:06:19 Wes Larson? Yeah, so he and his boss like get really mad at Timothy.
1:06:22 Jeff Larson? Yeah.
1:06:23 Wes Larson? And Timothy immediately, yeah, immediately apologizes. Patagonia quits distributing these photos and they even cut off their money for a little bit, but later Timothy would actually go back to using that photo in his presentations when he's talking about poachers.
1:06:38 Jeff Larson? Oh, that dog.
1:06:39 Wes Larson? Yeah, which makes me think like if Timothy Treadwell had AI, he would have created so much shit about poachers. It would have been wild. All right, one final quick thought on this, even if there were poaching in this park, there was something like 35,000 brown bears in Alaska at the time, so many that there are legal hunts for brown bears. Throughout the world, brown bears are an IUCN species of least concern. In the lower 48, they are on the endangered species list, they're listed as threatened, but they're not listed in Alaska and cat miasma is thought to have the highest density of brown bears of anywhere in the world. So what I'm getting at here is that it's not like he was in the Sea of Cortez risking his life for the last remaining
1:07:23 Wes Larson? Vekita, which is a little purpose. He, he was saying, you know, these bears need protection. It's kind of like saying elk and Yellowstone need protection. Like there are a lot of them, you know, and they're gonna be okay, even if a couple were killed, which they weren't. These bears didn't need his protection.
1:07:39 Jeff Larson? He was, he was using bears to scam people a little bit to get money.
1:07:44 Wes Larson? He was, I think he was more so than that. I don't think he was so much trying, he was trying to get money. Yeah. He was trying to get money, but it was to give him access to these bears. He just wanted to continue doing what he was doing and he needed a message to sell to the public. So I do think he kind of was starting to buy, he was drinking his own Kool-Aid in a way.
1:08:06 Jeff Larson? Makes sense. Well, and like, I think if you're gonna spend that much time out there just with bears, you gotta come up with some reason you're there, you know?
1:08:16 Wes Larson? Exactly.
1:08:16 Jeff Larson? Or at some point it's like, what am I doing?
1:08:20 Wes Larson? Well, this is, and this is maybe something better suited to part two, and I don't want to play armchair psychologist too much, but I think he definitely found.
1:08:29 Mike Smith? God in a way out in that wilderness to overcome his struggles back home. And when something has helped you in that kind of a capacity in your life, well, like what more justification do you really need? You know?
1:08:40 Wes Larson? Totally. Like I, I love bears as much as Timothy, I would say in a different way though. It's like not, I think my passion is manifested differently, but I get it. Like I get the feeling that they give you when you're around them and I understand his passion and I understand how it changes you. But I don't understand why he had to lie to kind of further that, you know?
1:09:04 Mike Smith? Yeah.
1:09:05 Wes Larson? So to this day, when people on YouTube or in the media talk about Timothy, they still always kind of mentioned that he dedicated his life to protecting bears. And I really just want to emphasize that that message needs to change because he didn't protect these bears.
1:09:20 Jeff Larson? How would you say it?
1:09:22 Wes Larson? I would say he dedicated his life to being close to bears, you know?
1:09:26 Mike Smith? Loving bears.
1:09:28 Wes Larson? Yeah. He had a passion for bears. I think we can talk about mental illness. We can talk about using nature to overcome addiction, passion for wildlife or education for wildlife. But it wasn't protection that it just wasn't. And I don't, I don't think it's fair to say that it was because there were people that are protecting them. They were doing it the right way and Timothy wasn't so. All right. So his star is growing, but Hallow Bay or this grizzly sanctuary is starting to become a bit more crowded with tourists and fishermen. And he starts looking for other locations in 1994. And a couple bays down from Hallow Bay is Caffelia Bay. It has much more difficult tides.
1:10:09 Wes Larson? It's really wild and bushy and there's this great little shallow salmon stream that leads from the end of a lower lake up to a higher lake. That stream is full of big, flat boulders and it's really only ankle deep. But these red salmon have to run up the stream in the fall to get back to their birthplace in the upper lake. So it's really.
1:10:30 Jeff Larson? Salmon, you're so dumb. Just, just quit like traveling to fresh water that kills you to breathe. Just do it.
1:10:39 Wes Larson? I think it's maybe a little bit like exhibitionism where it's like the thrill adds to the experience of mating, you know? Like that's why people do it in the office sometimes.
1:10:48 Jeff Larson? Their mating doesn't even look fun, though. They don't even like touch each other.
1:10:53 Wes Larson? Think about how fun, how fun having sex would be if you were maybe gonna get eaten by a bear while you're doing it.
1:11:00 Jeff Larson? I can't even imagine.
1:11:01 Wes Larson? Oh, man.
1:11:03 Jeff Larson? And if like your sex was like just looking for an egg to like do your business on when you're walking around?
1:11:10 Wes Larson? Yeah, be pretty easy. Okay. This stream is some of the easiest pickings for brown bears in the area because of the way it is. And there are tons of bears there in the fall when the red salmon are running. These bears aren't very habituated to humans. So to Timothy, this is a perfect new location. He starts there by making camp near the lower lake, which is somewhat accessible.
1:11:34 Jeff Larson? Great research.
1:11:35 Wes Larson? Yeah, his research is gonna be top notch. And when he gets there, he realizes like this is all alders. There's no clearings. It's just thick alders and head high grass. And the bears make actual tunnels through the vegetation to get around. And he's like really excited by this. He calls it the grizzly maze. And he starts spending every fall there. And then, starting in 1998, he'll make his camp up by the upper lake on a small knoll. And that's actually where he and Amy are killed in 2003. This place is a very different vibe. He isn't just laying in a field with brown bears that act like cows. He's literally running into them in dark tunnels through alders and bumping into them
1:12:20 Wes Larson? on this narrow stream. And there's a lot of big wild males that challenge him a lot more often. And you get a feel for this by the names he start giving, he starts giving these bears. He's calling them like Demon, The Red Machine.
1:12:35 Wes Larson? And it's kind of like, it's a suicidal place to hang out in camp, but he loves it.
1:12:40 Mike Smith? All of a sudden, I think a lot less of you in that one picture in National Geographic. Timothy was doing that on like a daily basis.
1:12:48 Wes Larson? With grizzly bears.
1:12:48 Mike Smith? You did it like once.
1:12:49 Wes Larson? With brown bears. Yeah.
1:12:50 Mike Smith? Yeah, you and Jeff.
1:12:52 Wes Larson? That's fair.
1:12:54 Wes Larson? So Willie Fulton, his pilot, has a good quote in the book, The Grizzly Maze, about how Timothy was when he was there. And I want to read that to you guys really quickly here. Okay, he says, "He was a different guy at Hallow Bay. Over there, you could just lay in the grass and relax. Caffley is a totally different place. You have to pay close attention. When, when the bears are ripping, it's wild. Bears popping in and out of the brush, fighting over fishing spots, some pretty crazy stuff. Timothy admitted as much to him. Oh yeah, Fulton continues, "He was always amped up when he came out of there. He knew exactly how dangerous it was, especially in the fall. That's one of the reasons I don't have any problem with what he did, because he knew the risk and he took it on."
1:13:38 Wes Larson? So Timothy had really found this peaceful Eden in the grizzly sanctuary, and now an addictive new drug in the grizzly maze. And both of these places are changing him. People that saw him during those years often saw him running away from them, sometimes on all four like a bear, and occasionally stopping to stand and look, and look back like a bear. Like bears will stand up and check you out, and Timothy would do the same thing.
1:14:02 Jeff Larson? When I, when we went to Katmai, the pilot I was with was like, "Yeah, that Treadwell guy did some interesting stuff." And he's like, "Pretty weird guy, though. He'd like come out and swim naked when I brought people in our plane and act like a bear." I was like, "Wait, what?"
1:14:22 Wes Larson? There's a lot of really funny anecdotes in these books about that kind of behavior. And maybe we'll do more of them in episode two. But he would charge out at bear viewing people. He would swim naked, like Jeff said. He would curse, or sometimes he would just be really pleasant and like guide them around. And everyone just kind of describes him as a bit of an odd duck. And there's a good story again from Tom, Tom Smith, my mentor, in the book Death in the Grizzly Maze that I want to read really quickly.
1:14:51 Wes Larson? Biologist Tom Smith reported that he often saw Timmy the bear, as he called him. He says, "He wouldn't come to me. He'd run away like a bear. He was a nut, but there's lots of them out there. I kinda liked the guy. I'd seek him out whenever I saw him, whether he wanted it or not." One time, there were two of us, bear biologists, walking along the beach, and we found a dead brown bear cub. Its mouth was full of porcupine quills. Timothy's camp was only about 100 yards away, so we walked over to it and I called his name. I knew he was in there, but he didn't respond. He was strange that way. I finally shook the tent pole and yelled, "I know you're in there, Tim. Come on out. One of your bears is dead." Well, he shot right out of the tent, and I told him with tongue in cheek, "Tim, you're supposed to be protecting these bears, but you're not doing
1:15:35 Wes Larson? a very good job of it. I just found a dead cub 100 yards away from your tent." And Tim got all serious, spread his arms, and said, "Hey, that's nature." Really good story.
1:15:46 Jeff Larson? Tom's a funny guy.
1:15:47 Wes Larson? Tom is. He's one of the funniest people I know.
1:15:49 Jeff Larson? Interesting. The porcupine killed a bear, too.
1:15:52 Wes Larson? Yeah, a cub. I could see how that would happen, for sure. But that cub learned the hard lesson.
1:15:57 Jeff Larson? Porcupine beats grizzly.
1:16:00 Wes Larson? Yeah.
1:16:00 Jeff Larson? Official.
1:16:02 Wes Larson? So even with all these quirky oddities and seemingly harmless interactions between Timothy and other people, pretty much everyone agreed that he's on a collision course with tragedy. Coastal brown bears, however well-fed and docile, are still incredibly powerful predators, and sooner or later, every bear professional knew that Timothy was gonna meet the wrong bear, and it would result in horrific consequences for him and for the bears which he devoted his life. Something happened in 2000 that really solidified the danger posed by coastal brown bears.
1:16:35 Wes Larson? So Hyder, Alaska, is what essentially amounts to a mini version of Katmai. There's this beautiful stream that comes out of a glacial-fed mountain. It pours into a large coastal bay. That stream is chock-full of running salmon during different times of the year, and bears descend on the stream to get nice and fat during those times. There's roughly 60 annual residents in Hyder, which means there's probably more bears than there are people there. So all three of us have been to Hyder. Mike, do you want to describe Hyder really quickly?
1:17:03 Mike Smith? Yeah, trying to remember if I like that place or not. No, I mean, you kind of touched on all of it, just kind of an idyllic river system, little ghost town almost with like some saloons and a one big famous hotel, not even big, but that's kind of like the landmark of the town itself, but it really is defined by the nature around it. It's a really small, very remote place from what I remember. I think I remember that the way we got into it from B C, Canada, that's the only way to get there by road at least.
1:17:36 Wes Larson? Yeah, it's right on the border with B C.
1:17:38 Mike Smith? Yeah, and the glacier, there's a massive glacier, one of the biggest in that Canada, North America area.
1:17:44 Jeff Larson? Couple glaciers around there.
1:17:46 Mike Smith? Yeah, a couple of them.
1:17:47 Jeff Larson? You, how do you feel about that?
1:17:49 Mike Smith? Just an overwhelming sense of boredom, mostly. Disinterest, I guess you could say.
1:17:55 Wes Larson? Glaciers are cooler the closer you can get to them, and that one you don't get very close to. You're like up on it.
1:18:00 Jeff Larson? But it's so big, it's kind of cool.
1:18:02 Wes Larson? It's amazing. The movie Insomnia.
1:18:05 Jeff Larson? One guy at the glacier parking lot selling like his music CDs.
1:18:10 Wes Larson? Yeah.
1:18:11 Jeff Larson? Just like, this is the worst business idea I've ever seen in my entire life.
1:18:17 Mike Smith? To the 60 residents there.
1:18:19 Wes Larson? The Christopher Nolan movie Insomnia was filmed there. Yeah, it's like glaciers, fishing, bears and trapping are the main things there. But the bear viewing there is so good that the state of Alaska built a platform to watch bears as they feed on salmon, and it really is spectacular. But in 2000, George Tullos, who's from Ketchikan, Alaska, had decided to spend the summer in Hyder working at a local restaurant. At times he would camp in the nearby Run Amok campground, which is really located at the end of the town and about three miles from the bear viewing platform. And when he would camp, he would just use like a pole with a tarp on it. It was really basic, didn't offer much protection from the elements or from bears.
1:18:59 Wes Larson? And he understood that there was bears around, but everyone in the area knew that the bears were well fed and really benign as far as brown bears go. There'd never been an attack in the area. But what George didn't know was that in the summer of 2000, a particularly aggressive and unpredictable 300 pound sub adult was showing up at the viewing platform, charging other bears, stealing fish, and then was seen in town at the dump. And not long after, he even chased some campers out of the campground and ate some of their food. So wildlife officials placed a trap. They wanted to capture and probably euthanize this bear. And on July 13th, 2000, it showed up at the trap, but it didn't trigger it.
1:19:40 Wes Larson? On July 14th, George Tullos was laying in his makeshift tent when some noise outside got his attention during the night. He stuck his head outside to investigate and the 300 pound brown bear immediately lunged forward and grabbed George by the head. It shook him, removing his scalp and most of his face from his head. The bear then ripped open a lot of his left arm from the elbow up and tore into his right hip and thigh. He died sometime in the quiet of that night. The bear consumed some of his butt and thigh and then moved on.
1:20:13 Mike Smith? Oh, man.
1:20:15 Wes Larson? In the morning, some passersby found his tent empty and they inspected the scene and saw his body lying near the tent. Some local sawmill workers came together to inspect the commotion and they immediately knew which bear was responsible. So they organized a little posse. They found the bear, which was back in the dump eating and they shot it and killed it. And when it was inspected later by wildlife officials, they did find human remains in its stomach. And it was the first person to be killed by a bear in the Hyder area. So I mentioned that the coroner in Grizzly Man sent Tom a bunch of autopsy photos from bear attacks. And George's were part of those autopsy photos. So I am going to show you guys those photos.
1:20:56 Mike Smith? Can I like opt out? Remember when you used to have to get your like mom's signature to watch the rated R movie in high school?
1:21:03 Jeff Larson? Well, you're not gonna get your mom's. So that's not fair.
1:21:07 Mike Smith? Well, that's exactly what I'm trying to do here.
1:21:11 Wes Larson? This is George Tullos.
1:21:13 Mike Smith? Good golly.
1:21:15 Jeff Larson? That doesn't look fun.
1:21:16 Wes Larson? No. So just to describe this for people that can't see it, he pretty much had all the skin removed off of his head. There's nothing else there.
1:21:26 Jeff Larson? Covered in grass and his like skull and stuff. Pretty bad. I would say at least eight out of 10 out cheese.
1:21:35 Wes Larson? Yeah, I would say 10 out of 10.
1:21:37 Mike Smith? An easy 10.
1:21:39 Wes Larson? So just so you guys know, these photos don't really even hold a candle to the Treadwell ones. But I don't know if Timothy ever really heard about this attack or the handful of other Alaska attacks. I think there was like eight.
1:21:52 Jeff Larson? Why do you think it attacked him if it was getting salmon?
1:21:55 Wes Larson? I, this bear just was acting differently from any other bear in the area. And it was, for whatever reason, I think it was having a hard time getting typical natural food sources. So it was investigating other food sources. I think it was a subadult and they're often bears that just haven't really figured out how not to take risks yet. So just really unfortunate, but what happened was it was just the wrong bear, wrong time. I don't think Timothy had any idea about this. Maybe he did. There's probably eight or nine other people that were killed by brown bears in Alaska during the time that Timothy was operating there. I think he was already so convinced of his powers as a bear whisperer and felt so strongly about the bears
1:22:36 Wes Larson? and that they had accepted him to a level that they would never hurt him, that he felt kind of invincible. And next week in episode two, we're going to learn that this delusion of Timothy's was very, very, very wrong.
1:22:50 Jeff Larson? Yeah.
1:22:51 Wes Larson? Okay.
1:22:52 Jeff Larson? I almost feel like he has a little bit of him that almost wants to get eaten. Like, yeah, just not a happy person.
1:22:59 Wes Larson? Well, when you watch Grizzly Man especially, or his other videos, he does constantly say like, I might die out here. This might be something, I might, this might be my last season. But I kind of think he was saying that to increase the drama. I don't think he actually thought the bears would ever hurt him. I think he really had convinced himself that he had figured out how to be a bear, how to avoid conflict. And I think he was kind of just saying that to make people feel like he was, you know, living really dangerously, which he was.
1:23:30 Jeff Larson? Sure. Wes, do you remember the stupid thing we did on our hydro?
1:23:35 Wes Larson? Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah.
1:23:37 Jeff Larson? Well, we did a few, I think. You weren't a bear biologist. Well, for me, the number one was going to be, I like slept on the road outside the car because we didn't rent a hotel. And it was like a sedan car. So it's like, I either had to like sit up all night after like driving all day. So I just like laid out in a sleeping bag. But the other dumb thing is we went in the river. They were fishing in and caught salmon and it's actually kind of crazy like it's it's hard to catch them. But like they are decaying a bit from the fresh water. So if you're like kind of sneaky, you can pick up one of these huge salmon with your hand.
1:24:20 Wes Larson? Yeah. And there was like carcasses of salmon everywhere. We'd just seen big bears down the river. It was pretty dumb.
1:24:27 Jeff Larson? We're being dumb.
1:24:28 Wes Larson? We're being little, we're being Timothy's, you know, I'm not saying Timothy's dumb. I don't think Timothy's a dumb person. I actually, I do think he's really brave. Yeah, but he, he was taking some huge risks and he was doing it in, I think in my mind, in my opinion, he was doing it because of the way it made him feel. And in that process, he was putting bears in harms way and he was putting other people in harms way, which we're going to talk about a lot in episode two. So I do think his actions were bad for these bears. He's obituating them. Jeff, you brought up that great point that they approached those photographers to the point where they had to throw rocks at the bear because it was getting too close. And he was harassing them. He was stressing them out.
1:25:13 Wes Larson? So no part of me is ever going to be able to say what Timothy did out there was good for bears. I will defend that to my dying breath. But I do think there's an argument that like what Timothy did out there was good for Timothy. And that's true. I think it changed him and it and he had a really, really strong passion for bears. And I can identify with that. I, it's admirable, but um, but I don't think he approached it the right way.
1:25:40 Jeff Larson? Thing I could say is like, is really impressive.
1:25:43 Wes Larson? It is. He's brave and he's tough. In my opinion, though, the worst thing that he did was that he was broadcasting this bad behavior to the entire world. Over and over again in his videos, he says, don't do this, like, don't do what I do. I'm special. And he's not like there, there wasn't anything that separated him from anyone else. And I can tell you, there's like tons of bear guides today that do this, like they can get super close to these bears too. He didn't have a special ability. He was really good at reading bear behavior. So he lasted a long time. But he wasn't, there's nothing that separated him. He wasn't a bear biologist. He wasn't, he didn't have formal training. And it feels very much, there's a, a quote in, um, Grizzly Maze, the book by Nick Jans, where he said,
1:26:27 Wes Larson? "It's like a dad that has a marblo, Marlboro, how do you say, a cigarette on his lip, telling his son, "Don't smoke." That's what this feels like. It's very much, "Do what I say, don't do what I do" kind of thing. And it's a bad example. Okay, that wraps it up for part one. I'm really excited for part two. We're going to talk a lot about Amy, her background. We're going to talk about the attack, the aftermath. We're going to talk about Timothy's relationship with the park service. Uh, and we're really going to dive in more about our feelings about him because he is complicated. And there's people that really care about Timothy to this day, and I do want to do justice by him. So, we're going to talk a lot about that.
1:27:10 Mike Smith? Sweet. Can't wait, can't wait.
1:27:12 Wes Larson? All right. We've got a couple of categories and some listener questions to get to, and then we're going to wrap this up. Uh, our first category, your favorite Timothy from pop culture. And I want to do a quick shout out to listener Adventure Parks, who also asked this question.
1:27:27 Jeff Larson? I'm just gonna go with Timothy Chalamet. I really like that guy. I loved his, you know what? Actually, I'll go with his, like, person who won the New York City Timothy Chalamet look-alike. Cause that is funny. And he showed up, but he didn't win.
1:27:46 Wes Larson? You gotta know, these actors just love these things. Cause it's gotta just be like the craziest ego boost to see thousands of people. Yeah. What's your favorite Timmy movie, Timothy Chalamet?
1:27:59 Jeff Larson? Probably the first Dune. I love that movie.
1:28:02 Wes Larson? It's a good pick.
1:28:03 Mike Smith? I'm going with Timothy Mosley, AKA Timbaland. Specifically his work with Missy Elliott, just an all-time duo. Uh, some of the best music to ever be made through the 2000s, late 90s.
1:28:18 Mike Smith? Work it. You know the song Work It Wes. Can you do the little reverse part?
1:28:21 Wes Larson? I don't know if I know it, but he's got my favorite song on Beat Saber. I like his Nelly Furtado stuff, too. I just
1:28:28 Mike Smith? Oh, yeah, for sure. I mean, he is a legendary producer, so.
1:28:32 Wes Larson? He is. Mine was Timothy Olyphant, who I just, every time he pops up in a movie, I'm excited. I just feel like he brings a certain kind of like playfulness and fun to any movie or show that he's in. So I just, yeah, I really like Timothy Olyphant.
1:28:50 Jeff Larson? Do you have a favorite role of him?
1:28:52 Wes Larson? Uh, yeah, I really like the movie The Crazies that he was in. It's like a zombie movie where he's like a sheriff. That was kind of when I really started getting into Timothy Olyphant. And then I really liked Deadwood, too.
1:29:06 Mike Smith? Uh, we recently watched The Fourth Die Hard together and it was not nearly as good as I I remembered. I actually kind of really liking it back in high school. But his performance, if there's anything about that movie that holds up, it's him. He's so good in it.
1:29:21 Jeff Larson? He's also, um, this is a random one, but he's also like a really good podcast guest.
1:29:28 Wes Larson? Oh, yeah, he's like Conan.
1:29:29 Mike Smith? Yeah, yeah.
1:29:30 Jeff Larson? Conan, they're like genuinely like really good friends. And then, uh, like I've heard him on Part of My Take, he's funny.
1:29:37 Mike Smith? Rich Eisen show. Like, he kind of takes over. He's a lot more like charismatic and funny than the hosts usually, so.
1:29:44 Jeff Larson? Yeah, he would be able to take any of our spots.
1:29:49 Wes Larson? Yeah.
1:29:51 Wes Larson? All right. My next question is your favorite scene from Grizzly Man. And I already said mine. Mine's the bee scene, both because of like the reversal where he's like, is it sleeping? And just where he says.
1:30:03 Jeff Larson? The bee scene is so good.
1:30:05 Wes Larson? So funny.
1:30:08 Mike Smith? The part I I rewound and watched it like eight times in a row yesterday while preparing was when the coroner or, uh, the, well, I guess that's what you would call him with the big metal casket. He just keeps like slapping it and like rustling the lid around and you almost can't even hear him speak. He's just like jostling this thing around so much. And he has just almost like this uncanny valley stare at the camera when he's speaking. It's so bizarre, but it made me laugh so hard.
1:30:38 Jeff Larson? No, I want to talk, the coroner for me, too, is just like. My thought was like, this guy is like very open and very like, um, willing to say like everything and very honest and it comes off so creepy to me. But then I was like thinking like, how can a cornered like not come off creepy? Like, I feel like if they don't talk at all, they're creepy. If they just like are completely normal, it's like, well, that's creepy.
1:31:05 Mike Smith? Yeah.
1:31:06 Jeff Larson? I don't think they can win.
1:31:08 Mike Smith? Yeah.
1:31:09 Jeff Larson? But whatever the answer to that is, like this guy's not doing it.
1:31:13 Mike Smith? Yeah.
1:31:16 Wes Larson? This PowerPoint that he sent to Tom is just, it's a hundred and nine pages. Most of them with really graphic mauling victims on them. And he's really jokey throughout the entire thing. He's just like, like you can kind of sense a scent, like a sense of giddiness as he's talking about all these things. And it's kind of, it's very disconcerting.
1:31:37 Mike Smith? I'm sure it's a little necessary, maybe in that line of work to like, it's a defense mechanism against all the terrible things you probably sees every day.
1:31:46 Jeff Larson? If you felt bad about everybody, it'd be like.
1:31:49 Wes Larson? Right. All right, uh, our next category is gonna be something you genuinely enjoy so much that you'd camp near it for months just to be closer to it.
1:32:00 Mike Smith? Oh, this one, it's hard for me to answer this because there's nothing I'd want to spend outside. Nothing like natural like that. They would want like necessitate me camping for it. But if there were like an amazing used bookstore out in the middle of the cat, my wilderness. And like, for some reason, that's the only place it existed and you had to like camp there. That's, it would get me, cause I love leafing through just hours and hours, just going through every shelf of a used bookstore. Looking for old favorites or like new potential favorites or something like that. So that'd probably be my answer.
1:32:34 Wes Larson? You could like, I feel like you'd be the manic pixie dream girl in like a romantic comedy, Mike.
1:32:39 Mike Smith? That's the nicest thing you've ever said.
1:32:44 Mike Smith? My answer that I came up with was a drive-in movie theater. I feel like I could just live at a drive-in movie theater for like all of June and July and be really happy. Yeah, so that's my answer.
1:32:57 Jeff Larson? I'll go with, I wanted to say Taylor Swift, but then I was like too creepy.
1:33:05 Jeff Larson? It's kind of bears.
1:33:07 Mike Smith? Yeah.
1:33:07 Jeff Larson? Like animals. Like I would camp out a long time to see like specific animals, you know? And it makes it cooler to like be camping out there and be part of their environment.
1:33:19 Mike Smith? Yeah. I thought you were gonna say the sphere.
1:33:21 Jeff Larson? Oh, yeah. I would get a, well, like, that's a hard one to camp out because you need to be in it.
1:33:27 Mike Smith? Yeah.
1:33:27 Jeff Larson? But like, I would buy a house inside the sphere if I could.
1:33:34 Mike Smith? All right. Uh, next question. Someone else that became famous in a field that they had no business being in.
1:33:42 Jeff Larson? I'll go first.
1:33:43 Mike Smith? Okay.
1:33:44 Jeff Larson? I'm gonna go with Ted Bundy.
1:33:46 Mike Smith? All right.
1:33:47 Jeff Larson? Became like one of the most famous serial killers ever, but like, he's like too good looking. He's too charming to like be in that line of business, I feel like, you know?
1:33:58 Mike Smith? Okay.
1:33:59 Jeff Larson? I would leave that line of business to like the dudes who like can't talk to another person and like, I don't know, they're just like, we know that guy's weird. I don't want like my serial killers being like charming, good looking guys.
1:34:15 Mike Smith? Yeah, like socially well-adjusted. Well, in most parts of their life.
1:34:20 Wes Larson? He did excel in that field, didn't he?
1:34:23 Mike Smith? Yeah.
1:34:25 Wes Larson? Mike, what's your answer?
1:34:26 Mike Smith? I'm gonna go with Grey Ghost or Tag. I, um...
1:34:31 Jeff Larson? You tell people who he is because...
1:34:33 Mike Smith? Yeah, I will. So my favorite team, obviously, through the 90s was Michael Jordan on the Bulls. And the Jazz were kind of their nemesis for a small little stretch there. And he was a significant player on the Utah Jazz for a long time. And he averaged something like four points over the 10 years. And he's just like the biggest, most out of shape, uncoordinated dude. Like, think Rudy Gobert, but like times 10, almost. And that's kind of what you're getting with him. He could barely catch a basketball.
1:35:03 Jeff Larson? I remember there was like one time in like a close game coming down to the wire. Last minute, he like shot a three pointer, which I'd never seen from him. And it like was literally the worst shot I think I've ever seen until Ben Simmons, maybe recently with this.
1:35:24 Mike Smith? And it's funny because he's like a jazz legend. He's one of the people that you always hear about. Yeah.
1:35:30 Jeff Larson? Military haircut.
1:35:32 Mike Smith? This little haircut dude.
1:35:33 Wes Larson? My answer is, and this is all politics aside, um, Donald Trump. I just feel like this is a dude who was not a politician and has managed to probably become the most powerful politician in the world. And has no business doing it. So.
1:35:53 Jeff Larson? I like how you tried to pull the politics aside move on that. It's literally just politics.
1:35:59 Wes Larson? Yeah.
1:35:59 Mike Smith? No, but I mean, I'm not going to talk about my personal, my personal politics.
1:36:04 Jeff Larson? The like, no offense, but.
1:36:07 Mike Smith? No politics, but I'm going to name a full on politician. It's just crazy. Like, I get what you're trying to say though, because like 10 years before he ran, he was, he was like a game show host on TV.
1:36:19 Jeff Larson? He's the star of Home Alone Two.
1:36:21 Mike Smith? Home Alone Two. Yeah. The star.
1:36:24 Wes Larson? It's crazy. Really weird timeline. All right. Uh, next one. Best bear name Timothy came up with, and if your answer isn't Sergeant Brown, please explain why.
1:36:37 Mike Smith? I can't believe anyone would pick anything other than Sergeant Brown. It's just the best.
1:36:42 Wes Larson? It's clearly Sergeant Brown for me.
1:36:44 Mike Smith? I will say though, when I first heard him, uh, say cracker, called the one bear cracker or kind of turned my head. I was like, wait a minute, what? What's he doing? What's that all about? But it's Sergeant Brown.
1:36:56 Jeff Larson? I like freckles a lot because like bears don't have freckles. They're like covered in hair.
1:37:02 Wes Larson? How did you come up with that name?
1:37:05 Wes Larson? That's so funny.
1:37:07 Jeff Larson? I really like squiggle.
1:37:09 Wes Larson? Squiggle is a good one. Yeah. Uh, I'm just gonna read through the ones that I noted down while I was researching. We have Mr. Chocolate, Booble, Thumper, Squiggle, Czar, Warren, Beacon, Hulk, Hefty, Holly, Mickey, Windy, Comet, Sergeant Brown, Saturn. Sergeant Brown is so funny to me. I don't know why.
1:37:36 Wes Larson? I gotta get control of myself here. Downey, Tabitha, Melissa, Freckles, Quincy, Ollie, which is probably the bear that killed him. Rowdy, The Grinch, Cracker, Demon, Red Machine, Bubba, Satan, and Hatchet. Some great names.
1:37:55 Jeff Larson? Satan's a funny one, dude.
1:37:56 Wes Larson? Yeah, didn't love that bear. Yeah.
1:38:00 Wes Larson? All right. Jeff, do you have a quick animal fact for us?
1:38:04 Jeff Larson? Yeah. Um, so I'm, this week I'm going with one just like from my brain. Didn't look it up.
1:38:11 Wes Larson? Okay.
1:38:11 Jeff Larson? So my fact is cheetahs don't outrun lions. And I think that's a cool fact because cheetahs are literally the fastest animals in the world. So like.
1:38:21 Wes Larson? Fastest mammals. Yeah.
1:38:22 Jeff Larson? Yeah, fastest mammals. So like, logic would make you think like this can outrun any animal. But lions have much better endurance. So like, even though the cheetah is faster at the start, lions are like one of the top five fastest animal, land mammals on earth. So like, they can keep up to stay in eyesight of the cheetah. And they can run for much longer and eventually kill.
1:38:48 Wes Larson? Oh. The cheetah wins the hundred, but the lion wins the 400 kind of thing.
1:38:53 Jeff Larson? Got it.
1:38:55 Wes Larson? Cool. Uh, really quick correction corner. In the Buffalo episode, I don't know if it was me or Jeff, but one of us said something about white and black rhinos being subspecies. That's definitely not what I meant by that. I think I meant like Eastern white rhino or Southern black white rhino or whatever. Black and white rhinos.
1:39:12 Jeff Larson? I didn't say that because I didn't.
1:39:14 Wes Larson? Yeah.
1:39:14 Mike Smith? It's a little advanced for you.
1:39:16 Wes Larson? Fully different species. Yeah, they are different species. We knew that. I just misspoke. So.
1:39:21 Jeff Larson? I actually have one from that episode too.
1:39:23 Wes Larson? Yeah.
1:39:24 Jeff Larson? Jeffrey told me I said one of the stories I said happened in 2028.
1:39:30 Wes Larson? Yeah.
1:39:31 Mike Smith? Oh, yeah.
1:39:32 Wes Larson? Future.
1:39:33 Mike Smith? That's wrong. Unless they got that time machine Wes has been using.
1:39:36 Wes Larson? Yeah, and I do think something we did in that episode too, really quickly that we are working on being a lot better about is often I think people in the West say Africa when they're talking about a specific region of Africa, and it is a massive place with so many different cultures and countries and geography and everything. And it really is kind of diminishing just to say Africa for those things. So we are going to work on that. That's something.
1:40:01 Jeff Larson? I think though, to defend myself for doing that, there is a lot of countries with safari in Africa, so it's kind of hard to know like, because like I'm not going to list like 10 countries every time I want to talk about the area too.
1:40:16 Wes Larson? Yeah, but we'll work on on not just like generalizing Africa because it is a problem. All right. So now let's get into some listener questions. We asked specifically for questions involving Timothy Treadwell. We got a lot of responses. So at some point I might just film kind of like a solo video answering a lot of the ones we didn't get to. But here are a few that we're going to squeeze in on this episode. A few people asked this, but two people that I noted down, Etta Grubb and Jeffrey Ward, who just mentioned. They asked if Timothy was a real bearologist or bear biologist. And we mentioned this on the episode, he wasn't. He had no formal training.
1:40:56 Wes Larson? He didn't publish any of his research. He did write a book, but that book was very like, like Tom said, very basic when it comes to bear biology. So no, he was not. That's pretty, pretty easy to answer. All right. Cooper 5280. Are there any important pieces to the story that you think are missing in the documentary? What do you guys think before I answer this for myself? Do you think there's anything the documentary really misses after hearing? Episode one.
1:41:24 Jeff Larson? Maybe just like. I think it shorts Amy's part a little bit too much. Like, she also died and it, if you just watch the documentary, it's kind of easy to forget about her.
1:41:38 Wes Larson? Yeah. I actually think something that should have been done differently in the documentary, but I totally get why they did it. So I feel like they really used his most outrageous moments in it. And you kind of have to do that to make it a really successful documentary. But there's this show called Diary of the Grizzly Man or something where it's just a lot of footage that Timothy put together. And he seems a lot more normal when you watch that show versus when you watch Grizzly Man.
1:42:06 Jeff Larson? They make you crazy.
1:42:08 Wes Larson? Yeah, they kind of handpicked the, the outbursts and the like parts where he's being like kind of silly, you know? And I understand why they did that, but I do think when you dig deeper into Timothy, he, there does seem like some underlying mental illness, maybe we'll talk about that more. But he seems a lot more balanced when you watch that show.
1:42:30 Jeff Larson? Yeah. And that's like a lot of years of footage. So like, there's going to be a few moments that you can highlight to
1:42:37 Wes Larson? Yeah.
1:42:37 Jeff Larson? paint a picture that's not really accurate.
1:42:41 Wes Larson? Totally. You should see some of the stuff we cut from our show. Oh, just ask me.
1:42:47 Wes Larson? All right, Wes, he pulled his pants down once.
1:42:49 Jeff Larson? Wes is a little Treadwell Jr. over here.
1:42:54 Wes Larson? Olivia Biocetti asked, if you could live alongside a type of animal like Timothy did and not die, what would you pick? No bears. Tigers. Yeah, for me, it'd be a big cat, too. Maybe probably lions or jaguars.
1:43:09 Jeff Larson? Whale sharks.
1:43:11 Wes Larson? Yeah, whale sharks are a great answer. That's one I considered, too. Misanthrope 2018, was he incredibly stupid or incredibly brave?
1:43:21 Wes Larson? I think it's a combo.
1:43:22 Jeff Larson? Those go hand in hand.
1:43:23 Wes Larson? Yeah, yeah.
1:43:25 Mike Smith? I'd give it like an 80 20 split, though. I don't think he was a stupid person. I think he kind of misallocated his passions in some dumb ways. Misguided, but I also, when I watch, especially when I watch the documentary, I don't get the vision of like, an idiot, just someone who is obsessed and addicted.
1:43:46 Wes Larson? We're going to talk about this in episode two, but he was, people were kind of starting to point him in a more healthy direction, right before his death. He was kind of starting to channel his passion into better outlets. And there was bear biologists and professionals working with him on kind of improving his messaging. So I don't think he was stupid. I think he was really misguided and I think he was incredibly brave. I do. Not in like, just in a camping in the grizzly maze or constantly walking up to huge animals like that. It's, it is very brave.
1:44:21 Jeff Larson? I do think there's like stupidity in all the bravest people, though.
1:44:26 Mike Smith? Oh, yeah, like jackass.
1:44:27 Jeff Larson? Or like even, but like even smart people who are brave, like Alex Harndt is very smart, but like it's stupid that he freesolos like these cliffs.
1:44:38 Wes Larson? Yeah.
1:44:38 Jeff Larson? When he could use ropes, like that is a stupid choice, but like.
1:44:42 Wes Larson? Totally. I think, so I read an Ask Me Anything with Jewel, like his closest friend and longtime companion. And, and someone, she says she constantly references those kind of adventure athletes when people say Timothy was stupid. She says like, well, these people died doing what they love to, like professional surfers or rock climbers, whatever. I think the really big difference there is they weren't harming anything else. And Timothy was doing some harm to these bears. He did end up, you know, Amy died because of this. I do think there's a pretty big difference between those comparisons.
1:45:18 Jeff Larson? Yeah.
1:45:18 Wes Larson? Okay. The Haley asked, do you think Timothy would have been able to learn to ride a sandworm from dune? And would you all be able to? Shai Halud?
1:45:28 Mike Smith? No.
1:45:28 Wes Larson? You guys riding Shai Halud?
1:45:30 Jeff Larson? I think Timothy could, like the way he-
1:45:32 Wes Larson? I think he'd be brave enough to try.
1:45:34 Jeff Larson? Yeah.
1:45:35 Mike Smith? It doesn't make sense. I don't understand how your arms aren't just getting ripped out of their sockets and then you die in like a sandy, bloody death.
1:45:43 Wes Larson? Also, like, the only reason Paul could do it is because he's like Lee Sin Gaeib, right? Like, I don't think anyone else that's not Fremen can do that.
1:45:52 Mike Smith? I mean, the whole concept of Lee Sin Al Gaeib is a manufactured pseudo-religious construct, so-
1:46:00 Wes Larson? Yeah.
1:46:01 Mike Smith? It doesn't really mean anything, but there is a kind of competence that comes with like, that kind of false belief in yourself, I guess.
1:46:09 Wes Larson? So that's why I think Timothy could do it.
1:46:11 Jeff Larson? Treadwell became a bear. If Timothy Treadwell can become a bear, he can become a Fremen.
1:46:17 Wes Larson? Yeah. I don't think I could do it, but I think Timothy would at least try, so-
1:46:22 Mike Smith? Sure.
1:46:22 Wes Larson? Yeah. Great question. Alright, this one's from Lindsay Culo. "Do you think what he tried to do or wanted to do is possible for a trained professional?" And I wanted to put this one in there because it is possible. There are trained professionals that do this. Tom Smith camped with those exact same bears with an electric fence, and he did it for years at the same time Timothy was doing it. Bear guides do this every single day in the summer in Katmai. They get close to these bears. There's tons of videos out there of coastal brown bears walking right in front of groups of photographers. Reading bear behavior is something that professionals can train to do and get really good at. And I do think Timothy was good at it, but it wasn't something that only he could do. A lot of people do it.
1:47:07 Jeff Larson? So why is he so much more famous?
1:47:10 Wes Larson? Because he was one of the first to do it, and because he went out there for months at a time alone. You know, he wasn't like guiding groups and then going back and sleeping in a hotel. And it's not like Tom is video recording himself doing these experiments and then like publishing it or going on, you know, on Dateline to talk about it. Timothy wanted to be famous for this. Uh, this one is from Dino Slugs 666. Great name. Was he just a silly little guy? What do you guys think?
1:47:42 Mike Smith? Little guy? I think he's kind of a big guy. He's a little silly, though.
1:47:45 Wes Larson? Yeah.
1:47:46 Mike Smith? He's a guy who is a little silly. I'll say that.
1:47:49 Jeff Larson? Like, foxes are kind of silly, and once he, like, saw some foxes, he's like, "Yeah, I get along."
1:47:55 Wes Larson? Those are my people.
1:47:56 Jeff Larson? Yeah.
1:47:57 Wes Larson? Uh, I agree. Silly little guy. Misa Mirith says, "Do you think the bears actually recognized him?" And I would say, yes, they did. I think they recognized him as, like, Timothy, too. I don't think it was just like, "Oh, here's the human." I think they knew Timothy. They knew his voice.
1:48:15 Jeff Larson? Interesting. That's a good question.
1:48:17 Wes Larson? I, and the reason I think that is because I know there was bears that I've worked with that recognized me, you know? And I wasn't nearly as connected to them or as close to them as he was.
1:48:28 Jeff Larson? And you don't have as distinctive a voice, and you don't sing nearly as much.
1:48:32 Wes Larson? And I don't have the little page boy haircut, too.
1:48:36 Mike Smith? Prince Valiant, or whatever they called it.
1:48:38 Wes Larson? Yeah, or the Oakleys, which were super cool back then, actually.
1:48:41 Mike Smith? Oh, man. Yeah, we could only aspire to be so cool. I was just gonna ask, when you were working with bears, were you able to recognize which bear was which as quickly and easily as he was able to with all the different names?
1:48:52 Wes Larson? Not all of them. And like, like, for example, in Yellowstone, I didn't know all the bears, you know? They're much more spread out. They roam much bigger areas. But people that work in Cat Mine, like in Hallow Bay, get to know all the bears really well. Like, Tom, for sure, got to know the bears by their personalities.
1:49:10 Mike Smith? Did he know? I want to ask Tom if he knew Sergeant Brown.
1:49:13 Wes Larson? Sergeant Brown? I'm sure he did.
1:49:15 Mike Smith? We gotta get Tom on. Oh, man.
1:49:17 Wes Larson? We are. We're gonna talk to Tom, probably during this series.
1:49:20 Jeff Larson? Giving them people names, too, like, it's not like, it's a little taboo for bear biologists, right? But it's like, it does, like, me and Wes named our, the black bears we worked with, and it does, like, make it really easy to communicate, like, "This is this bear, this is this bear." Like, it's hard.
1:49:37 Wes Larson? It does.
1:49:37 Jeff Larson? It's harder to remember a number.
1:49:40 Wes Larson? But I think like Timothy's story really illustrates why it's not great for a biologist to do it because if I went up to someone and I was like, yeah, I was studying these bears and this is Boobal, you know, or this is Squiggles, they would kind of be like, oh, I don't really buy this guy as a serious scientist, you know?
1:49:59 Mike Smith? And it might lead also to kind of a dangerous level of comfort and familiarity.
1:50:05 Wes Larson? It does, exactly.
1:50:06 Jeff Larson? Wait, Wes, I want to ask you one. Lisa Lyons said, is Wes mad that Tim is Grizzly Man and you're just Grizkid?
1:50:15 Wes Larson? I, you know, I have people constantly saying-
1:50:18 Jeff Larson? Grizzly Man, you know, and you're a kid?
1:50:20 Wes Larson? Yeah, I need to change my name to Grizman. And I like kid. I feel like it's playful, like Billy the Kid or, you know, something like that. So, um, no, it doesn't bother me. But I, I kind of, I think Grizzly Man is a great title for a movie. I think Werner nailed it with that title.
1:50:39 Jeff Larson? Yeah.
1:50:39 Wes Larson? So, yeah. Okay. Uh, that's it for questions. That's it for the episode. Uh, again, thanks so much, guys, for being patient on this one. I know I promised it this year, delivering it right at the finish line. So, um, that's part one. Part two, we're coming back.
1:50:56 Jeff Larson? Merry Christmas.
1:50:57 Wes Larson? Yeah. Part two is going to be really interesting. I already talked about it, but, um, a couple of quick business things. Uh, we still got merch for sale. Great merch. Uh, you can gift Patreon subscriptions to people now. So, check that out. It's a really kind of different type of gift to give someone. Um, and then me and Jeff are both on Cameo. So if you want to request a cameo, you can ask me a Timothy Treadwell question on there or ask Jeff a Timothy Treadwell question. Uh, we'll be happy to answer them. So, that's it.
1:51:28 Jeff Larson? Perfect. Thanks, Wes. That was really good.
1:51:30 Wes Larson? And, and one, I guess one tiny final thing too. Well, it's a big deal for us. We're going weekly in 2025. So, I think this is like a couple of really good episodes to usher in a new era for Tooth and Claw, which we're really excited about.
1:51:43 Mike Smith? All right. Weekly. What? That's a lot of Tooth and Claw.
1:51:46 Wes Larson? I know. I'm gonna get sick of you guys. Check out. Love you guys. See ya.
1:51:51 Jeff Larson? Love ya.
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