438. The secrets of therapy FROM a therapist ft. Dr Sandra Espinoza

We all know that therapy is amazing, in fact it’s life-changing for many people. But what does therapy actually do? And what makes a good therapist? In today’s episode we’re joined by Dr Sandra Espinoza, Associate Professor of the Couple and Family Therapy Program at Alliant University. Our discussion includes: Her journey into helping others Why the best therapists, go to therapy What to look for in your therapist Why we can’t just rely on our friends Our greatest misconceptions around therapy Why stigma and affordability continue to be the biggest barriers How Alliant University is leading the next generation of helpers and therapists to support their communities If you’ve ever considered therapy, been curious about therapy or want to be a therapist yourself, this is your ultimate guide. Follow Dr Espinoza: HERE https://www.instagram.com/drsandraespinoza/ Find out more about Alliant University: HERE https://www.alliant.edu/ Follow Jemma on Instagram: @jemmasbeg https://www.instagram.com/jemmasbeg/?hl=en# Follow the podcast on Instagram: @thatpsychologypodcast https://www.instagram.com/thatpsychologypodcast/?hl=en# Subscribe on Substack: @thepsychologyofyour20s https://substack.com/@thepsychologyofyour20s For business: [email protected] mailto:[email protected] The Psychology of your 20s is not a substitute for professional mental health help. If you are struggling, distressed or require personalised advice, please reach out to your doctor or a licensed psychologist. See omnystudio.com/listener https://omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Speaker 00

  This is an iHeart Podcast. Guaranteed Human.

• 0:05Speaker 01

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• 0:39Jemma Sbeg?

  Hello, everybody. I'm Jemma Sbeg and welcome back to the Psychology of Your 20s, the podcast where we talk through the biggest changes, moments and transitions of our 20s and what they mean for our psychology.

• 0:58Jemma Sbeg?

  Hello, everybody. Welcome back to the show. Welcome back to the podcast. It is so great to have you here back for another episode as we, of course, break down the psychology of your 20s. Today, I have a very special episode for you all, basically an hour of free therapy. A huge focus of this podcast is mental health and its psychology. Psychology is in the name and we talk about so many concepts and theories, even therapeutic practices and interventions. We talk about it all the time. But what I have never done is just sat down and done a full episode on what therapy actually is, what it aims to do, what it means to be a therapist, what it means to be in therapy. Everybody tells us that it's helpful.

• 1:43Jemma Sbeg?

  Everybody tells us it's this magical thing. Why? Why does talking to a stranger help? What can you expect? Why does it change people? So in this episode, we're going to break down exactly what therapy does, the real psychology behind why change happens and what it means to be a therapist, what it means to go to therapy. We're also bringing on a very special guest, Dr. Sandra Espinoza. She is the Associate Professor and the former Branch Director for the Couple and Family Therapy Program at Alliant University. She's going to share some amazing expertise with us today. Dr. Espinoza, welcome to the show.

• 2:19Speaker 04

  Thank you so much for having me, Gemma. I'm excited to be here.

• 2:22Jemma Sbeg?

  Yeah, I'm so excited to have you here. Do you want to introduce yourself and just like, talk about the work that you do at Alliant and also beyond because you do some cool stuff.

• 2:30Speaker 04

  Sure. Yeah, so I am an associate professor at Alliant University. I have been at Alliant now for, I think, 10 years and I have been a therapist for about 13, I think going on 14. So I'm a clinician and an educator. I have a really small private practice where I see clients and I see mostly couples as well as a lot of women and a lot of clients that identify as immigrants. So I have my clinical work, I have my teaching, I do some research. And then I think the part that brings the most meaning to my work is that I'm also an organizer for a volunteer

• 3:13Speaker 04

  group of therapists who donate their time to serving immigrants, specifically undocumented immigrants. And I've been organizing for that for the past year. So there are folks who are just, again, donating their time to provide therapy for people who might not have access to it otherwise. And that has just been a really exciting and meaningful part of my career the past year. I'm also a mom. I am a mom of three. I have three little kids. I have a five-year-old, a three-year-old, and a six-month-old. So I know. So I have my hands full with that. And I am Mexican-American. I am a proud daughter of immigrants, and so I'm bilingual,

• 3:55Speaker 04

  and I speak Spanish. And so just really passionate about doing clinical work with the Latinx community.

• 4:01Jemma Sbeg?

  That is so impressive, but also a double thanks for being here today because you have a lot of other stuff that probably is a little bit more important. But I honestly feel like that was why I really wanted to speak to you because you've just done so much over so many different, so many different parts of like the psychology discipline and the therapy discipline and like what you can do and how you can help at every single level. And a lot of our listeners are doing psychology, want to become therapists, or just in general are trying to figure out who they want to become.

• 4:36Jemma Sbeg?

  You specifically, what did your journey into this field actually look like? Like, did you come into it? Did you always know this is what you wanted to be doing?

• 4:44Speaker 04

  Yeah, sure. So when I was in my undergrad, I was really interested in working with kids and working kind of more in the education field. And so I worked in a lot of after-school programs. I worked for like the Boys and Girls Club, I did AmeriCorps. And that work was really meaningful. And I, you know, I still carry so many of the like amazing memories that I made in working with children. But what I noticed is that when I was working with the kids, you know, a lot of them came from some challenging backgrounds. And even though they had these amazing programs that they were attending with me after school, I didn't feel like it was enough to really make an impact in their lives.

• 5:26Speaker 04

  I would, you know, I could spend two, three hours with them after school, but then they would kind of go back home to sometimes homes that didn't have a lot of resources, homes where the parent relationship wasn't great. And I kept asking myself, like, what more can I do? I would spend weekends with them, take them on field trips. And I still kept coming across this like, I don't know, just kind of inner challenge of like, I need to be doing more, I want to help in another way. And so then I started researching different programs, different schools. And a friend had always told me, you need to go to Alliant. Alliant trains really good therapists, you need to go, look into it. So I started looking into Alliant. And then from there, I came across the Couple and Family Therapy Program.

• 6:11Speaker 04

  And I was like, yes, I want to work with families. I want to work with couples because I want to make that larger impact with the children that I'm serving. And what's the best way to reach a child? It's through their parent, it's through their family. I also had, I think, a pretty, I came from a really good family, I will say. My family, you know, My parents were supportive. They sacrificed a lot for me. But I had a lot of trouble with my romantic relationships growing up. And I think didn't, just didn't have like a blueprint for what to do in a couple's relationship. And so I mentioned this part because I think that also inspired me to go specifically into like couple work, where I think I wanted answers. So like, why aren't my romantic relationships working?

• 6:55Speaker 04

  And so it was like both. It was like, I want to work with families. I want to make that impact. And then also I kind of want to find out more about myself, about relationships, like what makes a healthy relationship? What makes it work? So I think it was a combination of both of those things.

• 7:11Jemma Sbeg?

  Honestly, I feel like the best therapists are the ones who have had like tangible experiences themselves. So they can like see somebody come into their office and just know where that sits. Kind of in the soul and in the body and in the mind. Something I want to ask you, maybe this is a personal question. Before becoming a therapist, did you go to therapy yourself?

• 7:34Speaker 04

  No, no. And this is very embarrassing because I tell all my students like you have to go to therapy before becoming a therapist. And I think we'll probably dive into a little bit more of like why that's so important later. But I'll mention it kind of like briefly here. You know, when you are doing this work with other people, it's so important that you have fully examined, right? Your own biases, values, belief systems, et cetera. So that when you are in a therapeutic relationship with somebody else, you are making sure that those things aren't transcending into the relationship with the other. That you are, you have fixed, you have figured out yourself so well, right?

• 8:16Speaker 04

  Or at least in some ways, to make sure that when you are, how do, where do I, counseling somebody else? Like that, that isn't informing the way that you do it. I'll give you an example. Some people are still carrying such deep wounds about, again, their own couple relationship, that they'll then start working with a couple and side with one partner because that's what resonates. More personally to them in in terms of their lived experience. And so we want folks to go to therapy first to make sure that that doesn't happen. That you are trying your best, right, to remain as neutral as possible, even though neutrality is is also impossible.

• 8:59Speaker 04

  Because all of us are bringing in our own lived experiences as therapists. We want to be able to remain impartial, right? We want to have what we call in like contextual therapies, like multidirectional partiality. That we're able to hear every single person out. We're not citing, right, etc. But back to your original question of like, did I ever go? No, I think that it was really taboo in my family. My parents definitely didn't go to therapy again. They were like immigrants. They came from Mexico. They didn't speak English. It just wasn't talked about in my family. And it was only until I became a therapist and started doing the work that then finally I went. I went to individual therapy. I've been to couples therapy. And and now I'm like, oh, my God, I should have done this so much sooner.

• 9:44Speaker 04

  It would have helped before even becoming a therapist in a lot of ways.

• 9:48Jemma Sbeg?

  I really like that. That's the advice that you give to your students because you're like, I did it the other way. And so now, like, I don't, I'm not going to say like, don't make the same mistakes. But it's like, no, I can see that I would have been aided through this. And it must have, yeah, it must have been difficult. Oh, not difficult, but interesting for you, like becoming a therapist and maybe never having experienced therapy. And I know so many people listening to this believe to their core, like, therapy is an amazing thing. I really like it's it's great, but I've just never done it. So there is this specific idea of therapy is like lying on a couch, being maybe like asked questions about your dreams, about your parents. What do you actually do in therapy?

• 10:30Speaker 04

  Yeah, well, that is also such a big question because.

• 10:36Speaker 04

  Depending on who you're asking, you're going to get a different response. So if you were interviewing a psychiatrist, a psychologist, a social worker, an MFT like me, you're gonna get a different response probably from each person. And that's because we all do it or approach it in different ways, right? So for us, as couple and family therapists, we are working with an individual and trying to figure out what their inner world is, right? What their belief systems are, how they're thinking about things, how they're feeling about things. But we're also looking at it in the context of relationships and systems.

• 11:18Speaker 04

  So yes, we want to understand what you're experiencing, what's hurting you, what's painful, what's bothering you. But how is that, how is that being experienced in the relation to your family? In the relation to your neighborhood, in the relation to your society? Because we believe as MFTs that all of those things impact the way that you are navigating the world. And so that's really our emphasis. Whereas if you were to ask, I don't know, a psychologist or a different kinds of therapist, they might say, well, we're really concerned about behavior and helping you

• 11:56Speaker 04

  modify your behavior so that you have less emotional distress, so that you have less anxiety. And that is also valuable, right? So I'm thinking about like people who have like OCD, for example, who really need help managing some of their behaviors so that they experience like symptom relief, right? But again, it just depends on who you're gonna ask that you'll get that kind of like different response. But again, I think for me, like where I live as an MFT, it's really about helping a person better understand themselves in relation to their family context and their socio-political context, so that they can make sense of what they're experiencing.

• 12:38Jemma Sbeg?

  I like the emphasis on like how the, how the environment has shaped you in ways that you probably don't understand and how you need to have that baseline. Or maybe do understand, actually, you probably do, but you, you know, need to get to that next layer of depth. Something I want to ask you, because you work with so many different types of people, you know? When you meet someone as a therapist,

• 13:03Jemma Sbeg?

  And you're looking into their, you know, their family history, their, the socio-political environment that they live in, just everything that's going on around them and within them and in their past. Specifically, and maybe this is a difficult, difficult question to answer, what are you looking for? What are you trying to figure out about that individual in the first couple of sessions?

• 13:26Speaker 04

  Yeah, I'm usually trying to look for a pattern. So whether that's where I'm working with an individual, whether I'm working with a couple, or whether or not I'm working with a family, I'm trying to find the pattern that keeps getting them stuck. Because most of the time when people are coming to therapy, it's because they want to change something, right? They want something about their lives to be different. And many times they're telling me, we keep getting stuck, or I keep getting stuck, I keep dating the same guy over and over again, or we keep fighting about the same exact thing, help us through it. And so my job is to look for that pattern, or we even call it like a cycle, or we call it a dance, and figure out how can we interrupt this pattern so that you have a new way of

• 14:11Speaker 04

  being in relationship with yourself or others? And that will entail, right, what we just talked about, which is like, okay, looking back at your family, what are some things that you learned about your family? What was passed on? What kind of messages were sent to you about being afraid, about being sad? It might inquire again as to look at your, again, socio-political context, do you have a real reason to be scared to leave outside of your door? Right? How is that also impacting the way that you're showing up in your relationships? What have your past relationships looked like, just like as a young adult? How is that informing the way that you're showing up?

• 14:56Speaker 04

  In the here and now, right? So a lot of it is looking back at the past, looking at different systems, and then tying it back to how is that impacting you in this present moment?

• 15:08Jemma Sbeg?

  Can I ask a question? If you have somebody come in and, like you said, you know, they're an immigrant, they're scared to go outside their door, or there's somebody who's experienced, I don't know, racism, and they're terrified of that happening. How do you handle those like very real environmental things that you can't change as a therapist?

• 15:30Speaker 04

  Absolutely.

• 15:30Jemma Sbeg?

  I've always, like, I just, yeah, I think that's such an interesting thing.

• 15:34Speaker 04

  Yes, and I think that that is a question that a lot of people ask themselves, even like therapists are like, how do I help this person when I have no control over their environment? And the truth is like first just like naming that, right? And validating that and saying, you are not crazy. There is nothing innately wrong with you. You are having a very normal response to an abnormal situation. And we think about it that way with like any kind of trauma, really, where a person actually has a real reason to be scared. Maybe they had gotten in a really bad car accident, or they've lost a family in a car accident, lost their family in an airplane, and they're scared of flying.

• 16:19Speaker 04

  They're scared of driving. It makes sense to me that people are terrified of doing that thing again. And I think that that is so important to first just like name that you are having again a very normal response to an abnormal situation that shouldn't have happened to you, that shouldn't have happened to your family. And then also again acknowledging that no matter what I do, right? I won't be able to fix what is happening outside of these four walls. However, this is going to be your space where you can talk about these things. I can hear you and I can help you figure out a way to navigate what is happening outside as best as possible. Because I, you know, in a lot of the work that I do, I tell my therapists, you know,

• 17:04Speaker 04

  if you are feeling frustrated. That your client is not getting better. You are feeling like, maybe I'm not a good therapist because I can't relieve all of their human suffering. You have to remember that it's not your fault. And a lot of the times, we are just dealing with a broken socio-political system. Right? It it it's it's beyond your control. And you just have to trust that your relationship with this person is enough. And it's going to be enough to make a difference and relieve some of that pain that they are experiencing.

• 17:39Jemma Sbeg?

  I wish I had you as a professor when I was studying psychology. I feel like that's never spoken about of just like you. You have to know your limits as somebody, as a as a helper and as an empath and as somebody just doing their job. Speaking of what makes a good therapist, um, yeah, what makes a good therapist? Like, should you, as as if somebody is new to therapy and they're like, how do I know this person is right for me? Is this person gonna help me? Is this person good at their job? But like, what do we and should we look out for?

• 18:08Speaker 04

  Yeah, I think that goes back to what we were talking about earlier in terms of, you know, should you go to therapy before becoming a therapist? And that's really why I highly recommend that because it ties into what makes a good therapist. So I think a good therapist has done a lot of that self-examination prior to becoming a therapist and and doing that work, or at least concurrently. Um, one of our requirements in our program is that uh our students have to complete at least fifty hours of individual psychotherapy while completing their program. Because the training that we give them brings up so much stuff and so much

• 18:51Speaker 04

  sometimes like baggage for people that we wanna make sure they're kind of like sorting out before they are seeing clients. Um, because.

• 19:00Speaker 04

  You know, it's impossible to predict what clients bring into the room with you. And the therapist can easily be triggered just as much as the client. A lot of therapists, again, are kind of bringing in their own wounds, family stories, belief systems, religious beliefs, political beliefs. And if those go unexamined, they can harm the client relationship. Therapists might recommend a client to do something based on their lived experience, and that might not be what's best for that particular client, right? A good therapist has to be capable of being wrong, right?

• 19:46Speaker 04

  Just because you have extensive training, that doesn't mean that you're always going to know what's best for your client. Sometimes I even tell students, once you think that you know what's best for your client, that's a red flag, right? Because even if you have shared identities, we have no idea, right? What this person is really experiencing.

• 20:09Jemma Sbeg?

  I love that. My god, once you think you know what's right, that's a red flag.

• 20:13Speaker 04

  Absolutely.

• 20:14Jemma Sbeg?

  Just, and it just kind of is like a, I think there's no room for ego or arrogance on either end when you are in therapy.

• 20:23Speaker 04

  Right.

• 20:24Jemma Sbeg?

  I also like that Alliance does that, like fifty hours of, like you have to complete fifty hours of therapy to become a therapist. Seems like such a, of course, that's such a sensical idea, and I haven't heard of many programs doing that, so that is very, very cool.

• 20:40Speaker 04

  Yeah, and you can do it, you know, we tell our students, it could be individual, but it could also be like couples therapy, or it could even be family therapy. Like maybe sometimes our students want to go back and do therapy with their parents to figure out what some of these, you know, issues that they want to work through might be. But I think, again, also, a good therapist is just someone who's willing to be wrong, somebody who's really curious and genuinely, right, wants to learn about you and your story versus assuming that they already know. Right, what your problem is and what you should be working on. Um, and a good therapist, I lastly say, also always has a map. They have direction of where they wanna go with what you are bringing in.

• 21:22Speaker 04

  Um, a good therapist, a bad therapist, I would say, is someone who's just kind of like listening and validating. Um, I've had friends tell me like, oh, my therapist just agrees with me. And they don't really like say much in session. And that's also a red flag for me. I'm like, you know, a good therapist should be able to also disagree. Um, they should be able to challenge, right? That our, our job isn't to just like listen and nod. Um, our job is to kind of go back to one of my earlier points, which was like, we wanna interrupt those patterns that are keeping you stuck. And sometimes that requires challenging you. And I just ask that clients trust that we're trying to come from a good place. It's not that we are, you know, trying to pull you around in session.

• 22:05Speaker 04

  But we are trying to help you think about things differently.

• 22:08Jemma Sbeg?

  So this really leads super well into my next question, which is. I hear a lot, especially from maybe my parents' generation as well, or even just people, actually from everybody, which is. I don't need therapy, I have my friends. I have my friends and I talk to them. Um, I think you mentioned like your friends, obviously if your friend turned around and was like. Um, I'm gonna, I'm gonna correct you or I'm going to tell you that you're wrong. It would probably feel very difficult to hear. I think what a lot of people probably wanna know is. What is actually happening in therapy that makes it different from just talking to your, to your friends? Like, is it, you know, you're talking to a stranger. Why does that seem to work? Is it the talking?

• 22:53Jemma Sbeg?

  Is it the strategies? Is it the knowledge? Like, or is it something else?

• 22:57Speaker 04

  Yeah, absolutely. When, when I'm doing admissions, um, to bring people into the program, we'll ask people, you know, what? Makes you wanna be a therapist? And they'll say, well, my friends have always said that I'm a good listener. And that is, you know, a good quality. That is something that we want from therapists, that they're able to listen. And there's just so much more. Right? There's so much more training that people need if they really want to practice therapy. When you meet a therapist and you're starting that work with them, like there's a whole treatment plan that they have to create before working with you. And that treatment plan is really what's going to give them that direction and map of knowing how to

• 23:41Speaker 04

  help you towards your goal. They probably should also have like a theoretical orientation that they're practicing from. And again, that's going to vary depending on if you're working with a social worker, a psychiatrist, a psychologist, an MFT. So there's just like so much, again, like training that goes into it. And another stark difference is that I think friends, even though they are, I think, a lot of the times trying to remain as like quote unquote unbiased as possible, like they still have a stake in the relationship with you. There's an invest, they don't want to hurt your feelings a lot of the times, and righteously so. They're your friend, right? They're looking out for you. And a therapist isn't necessarily going to hurt your feelings. But again, they should be

• 24:25Speaker 04

  able to be in a position where they can challenge you and offer an outsider perspective, right? That also I think sometimes like friends can't, where we're kind of looking at at things from the outside in. And I think that that is really helpful for people who are feeling stuck versus getting input from somebody who has has a lens of like seeing them in their day to day life.

• 24:50Jemma Sbeg?

  So when somebody walks into like a therapist's office for the first time, you're speaking about this this treatment plan or this, it's like, just like a framework or they want a direction to your treatment, right? They want to know where they're going. They're trying to figure out, as you said, where you sit in like a broader environmental, social context, history, all these things. What can you expect as as somebody? What kind of questions are you going to be asked? What kind of things are going to come up in the first couple of sessions?

• 25:21Speaker 04

  Yeah, I think a lot of it will be based on the past and then some of it will be based on the present. So usually, one of the first questions that I asks is, you know, tell me what brings to brings you to therapy now. What is it about what you're experiencing that is making you want to seek help in this present moment? And again, that gives me usually like a good picture of like what is happening in the here and now. Oh, it's because I can't sleep well, or again, I keep dating the same guy over and over again. I just went through a breakup. And then I'll ask questions more about the past. So tell me a little bit about your family life. And they're pretty open ended so that the person can really like take them anywhere. It's really rare that we're asking like

• 26:06Speaker 04

  very specific detail oriented questions because we want to hear your story, right? I tell my my clients, you know, you have lived your life for 35 years, 40 years. You are the expert in your story and I am going to be a witness to that, right? You really are the expert here. I'm just here to kind of like listen and help you figure things out. So we want to hear that story. Tell me a little bit about what your life was like growing up and what were your what were some of the messages that your parents sent you around love, around apologizing? How do you think that's playing into what you're experiencing now? So I think again, it's a little bit of both. It's like tying the past to the

• 26:51Speaker 04

  present and kind of going back and forth and seeing kind of like where the client lives again in the here and now.

• 26:57Jemma Sbeg?

  Hmm. And I like that you said it's it's kind of like a write your own story situation, right? It's very much like they're not going to, a therapist isn't going to find ways to trick you. I think that's a big thing. Like they, that's not going to help them. Like trying to trick you into admitting things, trying to, you know, double cross you or like suddenly make big revelations about your life is actually like therapeutically unhelpful. So that's just something I'm sure you

• 27:26Speaker 04

  Yeah, it's like we were we're not really supposed to wear like the detective hats. We're not trying to catch a lot, a client lying. Like when we're working with substance use, a lot of the times clients will say, you know, like, I'm not using. And sometimes they are, right? Because recovery is hard. And our job isn't to figure out whether or not a client is telling the truth. Again, our job is to listen. Again, sure, we're going to challenge, right? If there's discrepancies sometimes, if things aren't matching up because we want to interrupt those patterns, but our job isn't to be an investigator. Our job isn't to be a police officer and tell you what is wrong, tell you what is right,

• 28:11Speaker 04

  kind of taking on that carceral kind of like perspective. Our job is, again, like you said, to focus on that story, listen. Some therapists that are like narrative therapists will even say like, our job is to help you rewrite that story, be a co-author to that story and write your preferred story, right? The one that you want to live.

• 28:32Jemma Sbeg?

  Love that. Big fan. Let's talk about therapy and stigma.

• 28:42Speaker 05

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• 29:47Jemma Sbeg?

  Something we've said a lot throughout this is, you know, well, your parents didn't go to therapy. And there are a lot of people who come in and they wish their families had gone to therapy and they haven't, or people saying, I don't need that, I have my friends. Why do some people and some communities still see therapy as something that is only for people in crisis or something that is? Unnecessary, full stop. Where does that come from?

• 30:13Speaker 04

  Yeah, I think that that is really just like the dominant narrative that we have socially constructed um in a lot of parts of the world. So I think for some specific cultures, it is just like so taboo to ask for any kind of help. Um for medical help, for psychiatric help, just because certain cultures just believe that that is not appropriate. Um some cultures will believe like you solve your problems within your family. For example, the only people that should know that you are in pain, that you're in emotional distress are your family members. Um so that's definitely like something that I see quite often.

• 30:53Speaker 04

  Um and then I think that there's also just like other bigger social messages like around gender, for example. Um how we socialize men to believe that they're not supposed to cry. That emotional expression means that they are weak, um that they're going to be a burden. And even to to women, right? I think that we can send messages that are really conflicting because we do expect women to be emotional and like soft and nurturing and maternal. And at the same time, we expect them to keep going, right? We um overburden them with tasks and uh psychological labor.

• 31:33Speaker 04

  And so it's hard, even if you kind of want to get help, to ask for it because you're expected to keep the world moving. Keep your family moving, keep society moving. And so I just, I think that all of those messages that we send people um can really confuse them. Um is what I'm feeling valid? Is it enough to ask for help? My culture says that it is um, you know, not right. My community is telling me that it's not right. And so it is really hard to get people to finally do it. Again, I'm I'm a victim to that. Like I didn't go to therapy until my mid twen- late twenties, I think it was almost. And it was a career that I was pursuing and I was still nervous.

• 32:15Speaker 04

  I was still nervous, like what am I going to uncover and is that gonna? Mean X, Y and Z about me. So I, again, I, I think it's like these just big kind of social messages, cultural messages that we send people. And you'd be surprised because I do think we've made a lot of strides. Like now it's twenty twenty six, mental health is pretty widely talked about. But we're still seeing so many people and young people even saying, I'm too nervous to go.

• 32:40Jemma Sbeg?

  So yeah, obviously, a lot of my friends are therapists because I, we all went to school together, right? Well, you know, I studied psychology and something I hear all the time from friends will be like, oh, you know, I had three patients just like not show up, like made, made appointments and get so close and then just feel like they can't take that next step. Um, and sometimes it takes a couple of times to feel ready, to feel ready to kind of take a peek behind the door. So I think the fact that like, if you're even listening to this episode, considering therapy, you, the listener, you have made it so far on that journey as something that is like available to you and something that you're,

• 33:19Jemma Sbeg?

  you're considering. Um, for someone who can't afford therapy, because we've got, there's a couple of barriers here. Like it's, it's difficult. There is the internal battle of like, do I do this as the cultural battle of like, if you do this, we will think this of you. And then there's just an availability issue. Um, for someone who can't currently afford therapy, what are some meaningful alternatives or starting points, um, before that becomes available?

• 33:48Speaker 04

  Hmm. So if, if therapy is completely inaccessible, which it is to a lot of people, um, I would encourage you to kind of look at your current support systems. So I know we also talked about like, well, friends shouldn't be doing therapy, but I would rather somebody be able to vent and open up to another, any other human being, right? Instead of carrying this like pain, um, and distress like on their own. So for example, if somebody's having suicidal thoughts and therapy is completely inaccessible, I would rather than be able to turn to a trusted friend and say, you know what, I'm carrying these. Feelings with me, I think I need help. That is a starting point, right?

• 34:33Speaker 04

  At least somebody else knows that you are in trouble. Another suggestion would be like relaying, I don't know, some people are religious. Faith communities can be really helpful in navigating painful experiences. A lot of the immigrant communities that I work with, because therapy is so taboo, they'll tell me, I went to church and prayed about this. I went and talked to a pastor about this and they were actually really helpful. Or I went and talked to another churchgoer and they really helped me through this like dark time. They were able to bring themselves to access that kind of help before actually seeking out therapeutic services. And again, that is amazing. Like you said, it's a starting point.

• 35:18Speaker 04

  So I think first, just kind of like reaching out to your local network and saying, you know, I'm feeling this way, I need help. Starting there. And a lot of the times, my experience has also been that like, once people start reaching out to others and saying, I'm experiencing X, Y, and Z, they connect them to resources because there are a lot of resources that offer free therapy. There's so many and you know, if any of your listeners are interested, they can reach out to me directly and I'm happy to kind of point them in the right direction. But it's not impossible. And there's so many therapists who are just like willing, again, to donate their time and doing good work and just helping people make therapy accessible that we can find a way to get people connected.

• 36:01Jemma Sbeg?

  This is a great segue. Speaking of therapists who want to help people. I also think this is a big thing. Like I think very few therapists get into this for any kind of selfish reason, right? You, you have to study for so long. There's so much that you have to learn. I know we spoke about people who come to Alliant and and who apply and they're like, oh, my friends just always don't wanna talk to me. They they I'm just such a good listener. Strangers on the street tell me stuff all the time. Speaking of like wanting to become a therapist, people like that, do you do you think that some people are just born to help others in this way?

• 36:43Jemma Sbeg?

  Or what's your take on that? Do you think that there are some people who are just like, oh, of course, that is like your purpose?

• 36:50Speaker 04

  Mm hmm. I think it's kind of a twofold. I think that there are some people that are born knowing that they want to help others. That they wanna dedicate their lives to helping others in some way, shape or form, whether that's being through like being a medical doctor, being a social worker, being a teacher, uh being a nurse, they just, there's this desire to help, right? And I think that you also don't have to be like a natural born listener or good talker to be a therapist. Like, I want to empower people that

• 37:30Speaker 04

  if they were quiet their whole lives, for example, and are just like super shy and introverted, like you can still learn how to be a good therapist. Um if you are somebody who maybe they said, you know, you talk too much in class, you're you're you socialize too much, you're just a big talker, you're very outgoing, you could be a good therapist, right? And so the skill is teachable, right? The skill is teachable. We can train you how to hone in on certain traits and how to highlight, right, certain skills. So I wanna empower people, like if this is something that you want to um approach, it's possible, even if maybe you got messages sent throughout your life that would contradict that. And I think that there is people who were just born to help. And so if you're both great, right?

• 38:14Speaker 04

  If you were feeling like I was put on this earth to help people and I want to be taught this skill, um wonderful. But if you land on either of the spectrum, to know that it's still possible, I guess that's that's kind of how I wanna answer that.

• 38:30Jemma Sbeg?

  I love that answer. Kind of, not gonna lie, I set you up for that answer. I feel, I, I, because I was like, I feel the same way. I think also you'd be surprised. Some people who you think would be amazing therapists um really struggle because, you know, like you said, like you can't help everybody. Or they're used to um dealing with a specific kind of of individual who was just like them and, you know, can't apply that to everybody else.

• 38:55Speaker 04

  Yeah, I think another, yeah, sorry, Gemma, another good example is like people who have been in um recovery. Like a lot of people who've struggled with addiction, like I imagine that throughout their life, they were probably sent really bad messages about who they are and their character and whatnot. And they end up making amazing therapists. Like people in recovery are amazing therapists because they have that lived experience that really can uh bring a lot of expertise. And so uh again, I think that if you are somebody who's just like really interested in pursuing this, to really not listen to a lot of that like outside noise and ask, get mentorship, um get the training and, you know, the world is your, your oyster after that.

• 39:40Jemma Sbeg?

  Let's talk about Alliant because you went to school there and now you, now you teach there. You've been with them for like, when did you start? Thirteen years ago, you said?

• 39:50Speaker 04

  Mm hmm.

• 39:50Jemma Sbeg?

  Um, how did they kind of prepare you and how do they continue to prepare people to work effectively as therapists? Like what's unique about this program?

• 40:02Speaker 04

  Yeah, I think it's, I probably would highlight like three things. Um, number one is like mentorship. Uh, I think something that sets Alliant apart is like outstanding mentorship because we are a smaller school. You're not going to be in a classroom with a hundred and fifty people. So the professor is going to know every single student, which I think gives a lot of opportunity. Again, for, for them to get to know you, know your goals and reach out, reach out to you if you are struggling or want extra help. Um, I, I really feel like for me as a first gen college student, like that's what really made a huge difference for me was that my professor, Dr. Davis, who's in our Sacramento campus, I always give him a shout out.

• 40:43Speaker 04

  He changed my life because he actually took the time to find out what I wanted to do and helped me answer a lot of questions that I wouldn't have had answered if I was kind of doing this on my own. So I think that's one. Number two is like bridging the like clinical training with like practical, real world training. So, um, yes, we like teach you all of the theories. You get really good, uh, paper knowledge. But then we also give you the opportunity to apply it and give you so much supervision and mentorship while doing it. So it's like a balance, right? And so you're getting all of your book knowledge and then you're getting that bridge to like actually going out there and seeing clients and applying everything that you know.

• 41:26Speaker 04

  I feel like Alliance is a really good job at that. And then the last part is like the emphasis on diversity. I think that if you are living in the United States in this current moment, like there's a good chance that you are going to be working with diverse groups because the United States is changing so incredibly fast. I mean, the whole world really is, right? Globally. And Alliance does such a good job at preparing students to work with diverse populations. Again, we're asking you, you know, are you examining these biases? Our cohorts are so incredibly diverse. Like my cohorts, I have, um, I'll have like a 23-year-old, fresh college grad sitting next to a 70-year-old retired attorney.

• 42:12Speaker 04

  It, the, the cohorts are just so different and the students are so different. And so they're bringing in that lived experience. They're talking about their stories in class. Um, and so you, you're getting exposure, right, to all of these different stories. Um, and I just, I, I think that Alliance does such a good job of that. The professors are diverse. I mean, I can go on and on about how well we prepare students for the current landscape.

• 42:38Jemma Sbeg?

  Yeah, I love that. And obviously flipping to the other side, like there, obviously there's people listening to this who want to be therapists. What can you expect from learning to be a therapist, both at Alliance and just in general?

• 42:51Speaker 04

  Yes, so I know I keep harping on this, but really doing that like self-examination is such a big part. It is painful in some ways, but I promise you will come out a better person on the other side. Once you take a good look at your story with genuine curiosity and a critical lens. So you'll do a lot of that, like examining your family, examining your past. And then also, of course, like learning different models that will help you really understand how human behavior works, again, within that relational context. So you'll learn a lot of the foundational theories about human behavior. And you'll learn a lot of those like listening skills that we also kind of talked about

• 43:34Speaker 04

  today, like how to be a good listener, because it's so much more than just kind of having your ears open, right? There is a lot of like reflective listening. So you'll learn so many things, but I think that the best part is learning a lot about yourself. Like, I am a much better wife, daughter, friend, mom, because I'm a therapist. Because I'm constantly asking myself, why did this happen? Well, why did I say this? How could I have done that better, right? So like that self-reflection, I think, just makes you such a good human being. So even though it's hard to move through that while you're in training, in the end,

• 44:15Speaker 04

  I think, again, you just come out so much more of a self-aware person because of it.

• 44:24Jemma Sbeg?

  I love that. I've got two more questions for you. One to do with therapy and then one to do purely with you as a person. What kind of inspires you about this field at the moment? Like, and the people who are entering it? What is something to kind of look forward to when it comes to the therapy space?

• 44:42Speaker 04

  Yeah, that's a good question. I think, you know, I have the privilege of seeing new waves of therapists come in every single year because I'm a professor and we teach, you know, a different cohort every single year.

• 44:56Speaker 04

  And it is really inspiring to see so many people come in every single year genuinely wanting to make a difference in the world. Genuinely wanting to be people that can hold space for people who are experiencing like trauma and pain. So like, just like the fact that we have so many helpers to me is so incredibly inspiring because the world can be a place, right? Where there is so much pain and trauma. The fact that we have so many people with a desire to change that, to meet it with kindness and warmth and love is so incredibly inspiring to me and wants me to keep going year after year in terms of my teaching.

• 45:42Speaker 04

  And then what was the other part of that question, Gemma?

• 45:44Jemma Sbeg?

  Honestly, I think you answered it super well.

• 45:47Speaker 04

  Okay.

• 45:47Jemma Sbeg?

  I feel like I love that and I love that you, honestly, it would be just such a great experience just being on the front line of, of people who you were just sending out to just like help. I feel like that'd be a really great place to be right now. It's like, oh, and the world is just so chaotic and awful and just being like, oh, and then here are these people who just really wanna help people.

• 46:08Speaker 04

  Right.

• 46:09Jemma Sbeg?

  Oh, I can't imagine it. Final question. This is a question we ask every single guest and it has literally nothing to do with what we spoke about today. Maybe the 1% of what we spoke about today may come up in this question, which is, what is one thing you wish you knew in your twenties that has nothing to do with what we spoke about in this episode?

• 46:31Speaker 04

  Yeah. One thing that I wish I knew was like that my life was just beginning. When I reflect back in my twenties, they felt so like finite. It felt like I had to find the perfect partner to get married to. I had to find the perfect career. I had to figure out where I was going to live. Should I be buying a house? It was just like all of these social expectations that I thought I had to like check off. And that was just so much pressure when I wish I would have just spent my twenties having. Fun and living life and traveling and exploring. But I just really felt like I had had it all figured out. And I wished that I knew that it was just the beginning.

• 47:16Speaker 04

  And I could take my time finding that perfect partner. I could find my time finding that perfect career. I could take risks, right? Versus just playing it really safe and figuring out again. Like I just kind of had to get it all done in my twenties. So my message is like, it's just starting. It's going to get so much better. And again, the world is your oyster and it's it's just going to be amazing.

• 47:41Jemma Sbeg?

  You know what? I kind of needed to hear that today. I've been having so many conversations with people about this. And I love when people come on the podcast and they're just like, your twenties is just the start point. So yeah, thanks for that wonderful advice.

• 47:55Speaker 04

  It's exciting.

• 47:56Jemma Sbeg?

  Well, yeah, I know it's scary, but exciting as well. Thank you again for coming on the podcast. I like really appreciate you taking the time out of very meaningful and and busy work to discuss the truth about therapy with us. Discuss the stigma, discuss how to become a therapist. Is there anything else you want to say before we wrap up the episode?

• 48:20Speaker 04

  No, just that again, I think if you are feeling like you need help because you're not feeling, you know, emotionally well, to know that there's always going to be someone to listen. I know it's scary, but do it anyway. Good things happen when you're brave.

• 48:36Jemma Sbeg?

  That's a great way to end the episode. Great things happen when you're brave. I actually just started therapy again and it's it's hard at first. And then you just experience, it's like a bit of a fong is kind of lifted from life. Even if it's it's a bit difficult. So we're going to leave so much additional information in the description, including where to find Dr. Espinoza, information about Alliant University and their amazing programs and the way they do things differently and so much more. Thank you if you've made it to the end. Leave a comment down below. Are you currently in therapy? I want to know, yes or no. Leave a comment if you're listening on Spotify. And as always, be safe, be kind, be gentle with yourself. We will talk very, very soon.

• 49:24Speaker 06

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• 49:52Speaker 00

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