Actor Patricia Clarkson (‘Sharp Objects’) Goes Her Own Way

After nearly four decades of working in Hollywood, actor Patricia Clarkson (The Station Agent, Pieces of April) says her portrayal of women’s rights activist Lilly Ledbetter is “the greatest privilege” in her storied career. We sat with the legendary actress as part of this year’s Aspen Ideas Festival https://www.aspenideas.org/attend/festival?&utm_source=google&utm_medium=adgrant&utm_campaign=festival&utm_term=homepage&utm_source=google&utm_medium=adgrant&utm_campaign=Brand&utm_term=aspen%20ideas%20festival&gad_source=1&gad_campaignid=1853680223&gbraid=0AAAAADi6FinixjbeiIPsxIJ4U5QIHFj_r&gclid=Cj0KCQjwnJfEBhCzARIsAIMtfKIkxNhSMsOAg_NcrkA0qlCE7h_AzT0FeZn0e-IVAhqgRowmHmFzzS8aAm3jEALw_wcB to discuss her powerful turn in Lilly https://www.lillymovie.com/ (4:10), her colorful New Orleans upbringing (10:17), and the educator who first recognized Patricia’s talent (13:25). Then, she reflects on her life-changing move from Louisiana to New York City (18:40), years of training at the Yale School of Drama (22:08), and her early film roles opposite Kevin Costner in The Untouchables and Clint Eastwood in The Dead Pool (26:21). On the back-half, we discuss her transformation in the groundbreaking 1998 film High Art (28:08), her process of “total immersion” on set (33:26), and how that commitment led to a call from director Martin Scorsese and a pivotal part in Shutter Island (39:33). To close, we talk through Patricia’s raucous role in Easy A (40:50), her ongoing fight for equal pay in Hollywood (42:30), and her lifelong love of Thornton Wilder’s Our Town (52:30). Watch this conversation https://youtu.be/EbhD53dYres?si=MIW7x-LemZeqzZUD on our new YouTube channel. Thoughts or future guest ideas? Email us at [email protected]. See omnystudio.com/listener https://omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information. See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:02Speaker 00

  Lemonada.

• 0:21Sam Fragoso?

  This is Talk Easy. I'm Sam Fragoso. Welcome to the show.

• 0:38Sam Fragoso?

  Today, the inimitable Patricia Clarkson. You likely know her from the HBO limited series Sharp Objects, or perhaps her Emmy-winning performance in Six Feet Under, or maybe it's her Oscar-nominated turn in Pieces of April from 2003. Over four decades, she's moved seamlessly between stage and screen, comedy and drama, the highlight of just about everything she does. This is true, I think, from the very beginning, mind you. In one of the earliest pieces of press she did around her debut in The Untouchables in 1987, Premier Magazine described her like this: "Clarkson has the kind of attractive, expressive face the camera loves.

• 1:21Sam Fragoso?

  It boasts the innocent mischief of a Marie Sendak child: wide, excited, blue eyes, delicate cheekbones, an upward-sloping nose and chin with strawberry blonde hair. But her voice hasn't matched her face since she was five. Deep, husky, and grainy, its timbre is that of a film noir dame." And it's true, because to watch Clarkson, both then and even now, is to see a performer that feels of a bygone era, while somehow still remaining and feeling contemporary.

• 1:57Sam Fragoso?

  She's collaborated with a roster list of filmmakers most other actors would envy. Martin Scorsese in Shutter Island, Brian De Palma in The Untouchables, Lisa Cholodenko in High Art, Todd Haynes in Far From Heaven, Lars von Trier in Dogville, not to mention George Clooney in Good Night and Good Luck. Her latest turn is in the new film Lily. In it, she portrays equal pay activist Lilly Ledbetter, whose legal battle with Goodyear became a watershed moment for women's rights in the workplace. Naturally, as the youngest of five girls growing up in New Orleans, Ledbetter was a beloved figure in the Clarkson household. But as Patricia told us, you can't play someone on a pedestal.

• 2:42Sam Fragoso?

  The job of the actor is to put their feet on the ground. And so today, live from the Aspen Ideas Festival, we talk to Patricia about how she turned this hero into a real human being. We also dive into her distinctly Southern upbringing, her formative years at the Yale School of Drama, the revelatory roles that followed, and why she continues to prioritize her work above just about anything and anyone else. If you'd like to watch this episode, you can find it in full on the YouTube page. It's at Talk Easy on YouTube. We put the Ari Aster one up there. And this episode with Patricia, live from Aspen, is also now uploaded.

• 3:26Sam Fragoso?

  So if you want to watch that, again, head on over to YouTube, type in Talk Easy, and it will pop right up. We've also included a link to the page in the description of this episode. And now, here is Patricia Clarkson.

• 3:51Sam Fragoso?

  Hi. Patricia Clarkson, nice to meet you.

• 3:54Speaker 02

  It's so nice to meet you.

• 3:56Sam Fragoso?

  Right before we went on, she said, OK, what if, what if we just had a glass of rosé?

• 4:03Speaker 02

  That says everything about me.

• 4:05Sam Fragoso?

  And I said, I've been doing this show for nine years, haven't done that, but you know, when in Aspen. I want to start with your latest film, in which you play Lilly Ledbetter, a woman who began working on the factory floor of Goodyear in 1979, only later to discover that she was being paid nearly half of what her male counterparts were making. When it comes to acting, you've said, it's always about playing facets of yourself and letting those facets come through. So when it came to Lily, what were those facets that you wanted to see through into the performance?

• 4:43Speaker 02

  Well, I, you know, I did something rather radical. People are shocked, I didn't meet Lilly Ledbetter. First of all, it was the greatest privilege of my life and my career to play this woman, and I don't say that lightly. But Lily, I'm the baby of five daughters, and Lily was on such a pedestal. And as an actor, I'm going to get a little method-y, but you cannot play someone who's high in your life, you have to put their feet on the ground. So I realized, she was cool with it, she kind of got it, you know, and I said, we're going to meet at the end, because I, I didn't want to play her, I felt I owed her the best of everything in me, and the best of great women in my life that have imprinted on me.

• 5:28Sam Fragoso?

  Is your mother included in that?

• 5:30Speaker 02

  Oh God, yes, of course. My mother is a remarkable human being, she's passed unfortunately, but my mother ran the city of New Orleans under the great mayor Mitch Landrieu. So my mother was a Titan, and she was president of city council, and my mother was a Titan, she raised five daughters, no sons. So you can imagine how large Lilly Ledbetter loomed with all of us. And so I didn't want to play or portray, I wanted to be her, I wanted her to be flesh and blood, and in order to do that, I had to bring... The best of me. And that's, for me, you know, acting is giving up of yourself.

• 6:10Speaker 02

  It is taking whatever aligns with the character and not being afraid to portray that, whether it's good or bad.

• 6:20Sam Fragoso?

  So where did your mother line up with Lily?

• 6:23Speaker 02

  Well, you know, one campaign speech I was giving for my mother, I used the word indefatigable. And the only other person I would say is indefatigable is Lilly Ledbetter. They are kindred spirits or somewhere together right now, I feel it, having, I don't know, my mother didn't really drink, but maybe she is now. So they're having a great time, I hope.

• 6:47Sam Fragoso?

  You started working in Hollywood in the mid 80s. And from the jump, you were paid less than your male counterparts. Did you see yourself in Lily's journey, fighting for equal pay for equal work?

• 7:00Speaker 02

  Well, at the time, no. We never questioned our salaries as actresses. We just never did. I think we felt so lucky to get the job, which is unfortunate. But then, when I started to realize what I was paid in the past, my jaw started to drop and I started to realize, my God, this is shocking, what I worked for. But, you know, Hollywood has undergone such a radical change right now, for the better, of course. We're still not quite on par, but we are doing much better. And now, when I played Lily, I was paid the most.

• 7:37Sam Fragoso?

  You would think if you play the character whose name is in the title...

• 7:45Speaker 02

  But that's not always true.

• 7:46Sam Fragoso?

  Yes. You said equal pay is not a political issue. How come it's treated like one?

• 7:52Speaker 02

  Well, it's ridiculous that it's a political issue, because when women make equal pay, everyone, everyone benefits. Your children, your spouses, your partners, your lovers, your mistresses. Everybody benefits with equal pay. You know what I mean? So...

• 8:08Sam Fragoso?

  Hold on, hold on, hold on.

• 8:09Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 8:12Sam Fragoso?

  Patricia?

• 8:13Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 8:13Sam Fragoso?

  The mistresses benefit?

• 8:15Speaker 02

  Sure.

• 8:16Sam Fragoso?

  Because the hotel rooms are better?

• 8:20Sam Fragoso?

  I swear it was one glass of rosé. I really, I swear. I swear.

• 8:24Speaker 02

  But, no. The thing is, is equal pay has no, it has no race, creed, color, sexual preference. Lilly was fighting for everyone. She was fighting across this great nation for every single person, north, south, east, west, black, white, brown, gay, straight, transgender. You know, equal pay is equal pay.

• 8:43Sam Fragoso?

  Well, why don't we take a look at her fighting for just about everyone? This is Patricia Clarkson in the film, "Lilly."

• 8:55Speaker 03

  Mrs. Ledbetter, I have a meeting.

• 8:56Speaker 02

  It'll just be a minute.

• 8:59Speaker 03

  I'm listening.

• 9:00Speaker 02

  I understand everything you do is to bolster the American economy, and I respect that. But women aren't the enemy of the economy, we're the backbone.

• 9:09Speaker 03

  I've seen your stump speech.

• 9:11Speaker 02

  And I've seen the polling. Don't score the vote. You'll be making a strategic error. All women want equality, not just women from one party. You can't afford to lose 51% of your voters.

• 9:25Speaker 03

  I'm not so sure of those numbers.

• 9:26Speaker 02

  There are Republican senators who want to support this bill. Do you want their seats to be collateral damage?

• 9:36Speaker 02

  Think about the future.

• 9:40Speaker 02

  Thank you for your time.

• 9:48Speaker 02

  But you think about, you think about that scene right now, which is what's going on with the big vote right now. Woo, baby.

• 9:57Sam Fragoso?

  At the end of that scene, it looked like you were about to roll your eyes. Is that, is that what it felt like?

• 10:02Speaker 02

  I did something a little sassy at the end of that scene, but they, they didn't keep it in. I kind of, I kind of swaggered off, but they took that out.

• 10:17Sam Fragoso?

  It's clear watching that, though, that there's a ton of your mom in that scene. But before, she was a councilwoman in New Orleans, mother of five girls, you the youngest. She was at home, like, taking care of you. And I'm curious, every time you've talked about your childhood, it sounds like the most idyllic childhood there can be. There's summer trips in your family's white and mint-green Volkswagen bus, the shrimp and crawfish boils, the fishing in the Gulf, the swimming in Pass Christian. And yet, you've said, if we were to interview your sisters, who are decidedly not here today, they would tell us that Patricia has a lot of rage. She was an emotional child.

• 11:02Sam Fragoso?

  So since your sisters didn't make the trip, did you feel, as a kid, that you had a lot of rage? And what did that look like?

• 11:11Speaker 02

  Well, I was a... Well, my nickname was Banshee. So, uh... No, I was a very emotional child. I think that's why acting saved me. I had a beautiful childhood. But we grew up, really not... We grew up in the suburbs. I mean, I grew up in beautiful New Orleans, but in Algiers, I went to public schools. You know, my mother was a stay-at-home mother at the time, and my father ran a children's home and then was dean of admissions at LSU Medical School. But it was five... They were raising five daughters. And so, my mother, like Lily, decided, you know, she had to work at 40. And that's when she started selling real estate and then that got her into being...

• 11:55Speaker 02

  Running head of Louisiana Realtors, then state legislator. And then, she truly is the emblem of all politics are local. My mother believed in the power of the city. And so... Being, first of all, you know, council member of District C, the French Quarter, and out years was her calling, and then president of the city council. So, but we, I had a very good childhood, but I had, I was a very emotional child. I mean, look at the parts I play. Where the hell do you think they come from? You know, they're not coming from "wee hee," you know, they're coming from "ah." You know?

• 12:31Sam Fragoso?

  But, so, hold on.

• 12:32Speaker 02

  They're coming from angst.

• 12:33Sam Fragoso?

  But Patricia, that's what I, I want to know what the "ah" is.

• 12:35Speaker 02

  It's just, I was born with it. You know, I'm a southern girl, so I was, I was born needy. And, and I was born, first of all, I was born in high heels and lipstick and hair, I mean, high hair curlers. But I, I think it was just the makeup of me. I think I had a similar makeup to an aunt I had.

• 12:54Sam Fragoso?

  Do you think all youngest children are needy?

• 12:57Speaker 02

  Well, we're, we're attached, you know. It was very hard for me, growing up. I went off to school at 17, but I, I missed my sisters, I missed my family. You know, I was very, I was babied. Not really, I was babied more by my sisters than my mother and my father. I'm very close to my sisters till this day. They're, I worship them, yeah.

• 13:16Sam Fragoso?

  So you said acting saved you, and I believe it started to save you in the eighth grade, when you were in a speech class with Mrs. Morrison, combing through index cards as you prepared. Did you feel that-

• 13:29Speaker 02

  God, you've done your homework.

• 13:31Sam Fragoso?

  Well, look, that's, we show up for you here. Did you feel then that that was a place to put all the rage your sisters were talking about?

• 13:39Speaker 02

  Well, it was a, Ms. Morrison, it was a speech class, and I was giving these kind of performances in each speech I was giving. And that's when she said, you know, "You're an actress."

• 13:48Sam Fragoso?

  Do you remember one of the subjects that you gave a speech on?

• 13:50Speaker 02

  I remember one speech. I had to rank the greatest professions, and I put teachers number one. But, you know, we had to give speeches, and I was performing them. I was kind of memorizing them and performing them. So I joined the drama club, and you know that one of the big plays I did was called "Flipped," Feminist Liberation Idealist Party for Permanent Equality and Democracy. And I was 14 years old, baby.

• 14:15Sam Fragoso?

  I can't believe you're still off book. That's amazing. So you were emboldened by your flipped performance. You go to O'Perry Walker High School under the tutelage of the late Miss Ethel East. She passed a few years ago, but you've said that she laid the groundwork that would carry me through the rest of my life. What was the groundwork?

• 14:36Speaker 02

  Well, she exposed me, yes. Did I do Star Spangled Girl and fun comedies and family, kind of conventional family. But then she also, she exposed me to Ionesco and Sotra. And she made me perform Our Town. She, you know, she entered me in dramatic competitions. And so she really took me seriously. And I think people, when you're younger, they, they think of it as a hobby. And I think Miss East saw me as a professional for the first time in my life. She was a remarkable human being. She was Cajun. She was from New Iberia. She was wonderful, beautiful, amazing, amazing woman.

• 15:21Sam Fragoso?

  How did it feel to be taken seriously at that age?

• 15:24Speaker 02

  I responded because I was always an emotional child. But now it was channeled into something I felt that was worthwhile instead of me just screaming.

• 15:37Sam Fragoso?

  The press loves asking you about never having been married and never having children. And I think they ask you because you've played so many mothers.

• 15:47Speaker 02

  I literally have played every single mother of every single star in Hollywood. Yes, I have.

• 15:53Speaker 02

  No, I, I knew at a very young age. I think it's because I lived through it. My parents had a remarkable marriage. They were married for 72 years. And I grew up in the dense suburbs. But I needed to flee that. I liked my freedom.

• 16:08Sam Fragoso?

  Well, that's what I was going to ask you. It's in high school, you said, I knew I never wanted to be married. And I knew I didn't want to have children because I would not be good at it. Now, how the hell does a 14 year old know something like that?

• 16:19Speaker 02

  I just did. I looked around. My mom and dad had so many friends with babies. And children and my mother, you know, a small party for my mother, even though we had no money in our house, wasn't that big, but a small party was 50 people. It was like Grand Central in our house. And so I wanted solitude and I wanted freedom. I and I've looked, I've had remarkable men in my life. I've had incredible relationships. I would say most of the men I've been with, not all, have been fabulous and I've become a better person through them. But they needed wives and I'm not a wife and I knew that early on. I don't know. I mean, it's just something I knew young and thank goodness I knew it.

• 17:00Speaker 02

  You know, I get asked that question and there's two timbers of voice that asked me that question. And it's always from a certain woman and they, you know, some women, they come up to me and they say, so you've never married? And I say, no. And they go, oh, wow, cool. And then there's a woman who comes up and she's like, Patricia, you've never married? As though my marriage was for her. And then I say to her, no, I've never been divorced, bitch. Thank you.

• 17:46Speaker 02

  That's okay at Aspen. Come on.

• 17:49Sam Fragoso?

  It's more than okay.

• 17:52Speaker 02

  It's a timbre of voices, just the weirdest thing to me. Look, if my old fashioned southern mother can come to terms with it, honey, you can, okay?

• 18:04Sam Fragoso?

  So when you went to your old fashioned southern mother and said, I'm going to New York. I have to leave home. I have to leave everyone in this community, a community that your family has been in for several generations. Do you remember when you told her that you had to go?

• 18:20Speaker 02

  Yes, I called her from the phone, back phone. I was a tri delta at LSU.

• 18:29Speaker 02

  Delta, Delta, Delta, would you, Delta, would you like to try? And so, I-

• 18:35Sam Fragoso?

  If there's another verse, I don't know it, so just keep going.

• 18:39Speaker 02

  So, I was in the back hallway of the Tri-Delta House and I made a phone call. And we had a ratty old Toyota and a station wagon. And this is the beauty of my mother.

• 18:52Speaker 02

  Because it changed my whole life. I called her and I said, "Mom, I'm not coming back. I can't come back. I need to move on." And literally, in one split moment, she said, "Patty, I'll bring the station wagon." And that was it. And a dear friend of mine put that in a framed picture for me, printed it out. "Patty, I'll bring the station wagon." I have it sitting out. So that says a lot about my mother. And it changed my life because I- Ellis, she was a great school. I just needed- I knew I needed to be in New York and I transferred to Fordham. And it was the best thing I ever did in my whole life.

• 19:35Sam Fragoso?

  That's amazing.

• 19:35Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 19:37Sam Fragoso?

  When you were at Fordham and that, I think you called it Dirty Upper West Side Apartment.

• 19:43Speaker 02

  No, no, no, no, no. No, I was at the YMCA.

• 19:47Sam Fragoso?

  Oh.

• 19:47Speaker 02

  Because Fordham, I was at the Lincoln Center campus, it had no dorms.

• 19:50Sam Fragoso?

  Okay.

• 19:51Speaker 02

  So I was in a- at the YMCA and I met a young woman there who was at Parsons. She spoke very little English, but enough to say, "We have to get out of here."

• 20:05Speaker 02

  And we did. And we lucked out. We got a nice, a big one-bedroom and they built a wall down the middle of it for us.

• 20:14Sam Fragoso?

  Was that with a really nice super?

• 20:16Speaker 02

  Well, then, so it's only in New York, you guys. I mean, I guess I'm spilling all the beans, but it's only in New York. We're there for two years and then we have this super who's lovely. I go down to the basement, he loans this furniture. He- we hang out with him. But he got a little weird towards the end of our two years there and we were both moving. I was going off to Yale, she was going back to Krakus. And one day when I was at Yale School of Drama, my friend, Margie Malchesky, calls me. She said, "Have you seen the front page of the Post?" I said, "No." She said, "You're super killed."

• 20:55Speaker 02

  His wife, two children, and two tenants in their building. And this man, you guys, I had been in the basement of that multiple times with this man, alone, picking out furniture to put in our apartment, or changing out furniture, or I cannot even tell you. So was Viviana. It was crazy. But I think he was drinking more. Something had changed in him, because he was very nice when we moved in. But is that not a New York story?

• 21:25Sam Fragoso?

  I swear, the murderer, he was so nice when we started. He didn't try to kill me once. Only an actor could display such empathy. Would you, stupid, would you play him in a movie?

• 21:44Speaker 02

  Yes. I'll play anything in a movie.

• 21:47Sam Fragoso?

  Well, speaking of playing anything, when you're at Yale, it's my understanding you had this coffee table that was, in your words, cheesy and ugly.

• 21:56Speaker 02

  Oh, so bad. We found it on the street.

• 21:58Sam Fragoso?

  But it was long, so it held at a time four scripts that sat on it. And it sounds like this was a crystallizing moment for you. So tell me what happened.

• 22:07Speaker 02

  Yale was brutal. I mean, it was extraordinary, but it was 17-hour days, eight days a week. Seriously, I would go home at Christmas, and my parents would think, we need to put an IV in this young girl, and how are you? But it was brutal, because it was so, you were studying, so you were doing scenes in class, and you were doing a play, then you were doing the cabaret. So I would lay out just four different scripts of what I was working on. The coffee table held them. And that's how it worked. You had to just go from, I did so many different parts at Yale, so many crazy and beautiful and amazing characters, and wonderful women, wonderful.

• 22:51Sam Fragoso?

  Before you went to Yale, what did you think acting required? And once you graduated, what did you realize it really required?

• 23:00Speaker 02

  I think I always thought it required diligence, and time, and fortitude, and patience.

• 23:10Speaker 02

  But then, when I really got out of Yale and in this industry, it required so much strength and so much belief in yourself and who you are. I never had to really kind of look inward and believe in myself. But when you are in this industry, you have to believe in everything you are and want to be.

• 23:35Sam Fragoso?

  After the break, the rest of my conversation, live from the Aspen Ideas Festival with Patricia Clarkson.

• 23:43Sam Fragoso?

  I think a lot of us are going to spend the next few weeks looking for gifts online. And while I like finding something thoughtful for the people in my life, the process can get a little ridiculous. You've got a dozen tabs open, you're comparing prices, and you're trying to remember which store had that one thing you saw that has a deal, and you flagged it, and you saved it, and now you can't find it. Anyway, that's what I like about Shop. Shop brings all kinds of stores together in one place, so you can search for what you're looking for across different brands, while discovering new ones along the way, plus tracking all your orders without jumping in between websites. And just in time for the holidays, they're celebrating the all-new shop.com with a pretty extraordinary giveaway. 1,000 shoppers will win $1,000 in Shop Cash.

• 24:28Sam Fragoso?

  That's $1 million in total, which you can put towards gifts for other people, or maybe something you've had an eye on for yourself. And you don't have to buy anything to enter the giveaway. Enter to win the $1 million Shop Cash giveaway from now until November 1st. Just go to shop.com. There are so many ways to win, and that's shop.com, shopping designed around you. No purchase necessary. Restrictions apply. Official rules available at shop.com.

• 25:00Sam Fragoso?

  One of the best gifts you can give someone is something they'll actually use, not just during the holidays, but months or even years later. Something that's well-made, feels good, and becomes part of their everyday life. That's what I like about Quince. I've been wearing their merino wool all-season tees for just over a year now, and they've become some of the most reliable pieces in my closet. They're comfortable, easy to layer, and they've held up incredibly. They're exactly the kind of thing I'd want to give to somebody else. Quince makes those everyday staples with premium materials, including 100% Mongolian cashmere, Italian leather, and 14-karat gold. Their cashmere sweaters start at just $60, and they also have wool coats, down jackets, and cashmere accessories for the colder months. And beyond clothing, there's bedding, cookware, luggage, and more,

• 25:45Sam Fragoso?

  so you can find something for just about everyone on your list. By working directly with ethical factories and cutting out the middlemen, Quince prices everything 50% to 80% less than similar brands. Give the gift of quality this holiday season. Download the Quince app for app-exclusive offers or go to quince.com. Get free shipping on your order and 365-day returns, now available in Canada and the UK, too. And when Quince asks where you heard about them, let them know it was Talk Easy. It's the best way to support the show.

• 26:31Sam Fragoso?

  You know, once you graduate, things work out pretty quickly for you. And you work with Kevin Costner in The Untouchables, Clint Eastwood in The Deadpool. But come the 90s, you're in your 30s. You said it was a decade where things got very weird and everything became difficult. When you say weird, what do you mean?

• 26:51Speaker 02

  Well, it's just because I was working. I was right out of Yale. I did, I was on Broadway in House of Blue Leaves. I did The Untouchables, which was a really beautiful experience. I did The Last Deadpool. You know, I'm Clint's type. And I was cast off tape and I fly to San Francisco. And there's Clint Eastwood.

• 27:12Sam Fragoso?

  So what was Clint's type?

• 27:15Speaker 02

  I'm, you know, petite blonde. So I, I, and he only cast off tape, so I didn't meet him till I got to San Francisco. And I got paid for the first time. I think back on that money and it was terrible. But for me, I thought, oh, I'm rich. And I wasn't. Because I was living in New York, it was really a struggle. So, things were going well, then I did another Broadway play, and then, you know, suddenly, things got really tough for me when I was like thirty-four. Really, thirty-two, thirty-three, I'd suddenly, I'd just played, I think, too many suburbanly, something, I couldn't really, I couldn't work the way I wanted to work.

• 27:58Speaker 02

  I really wanted to do movies, and I really wanted to do really demanding, amazing parts. And I really was being cast as kind of trophy-wise, or suburban-wise, you know, the kind of peripheral figures in the script that really required very little of me. And it was difficult for me.

• 28:17Sam Fragoso?

  Well, I would say that one of the most demanding parts you played came in nineteen ninety-eight. You played a gay, German heroin addict, and former fast-bender star that named Greta in the movie High Art. You said that the director, Lisa Chilodango, saw something in you that was much closer to Greta than the suburban moms I had been playing to that point. What do you think she saw?

• 28:42Speaker 02

  Well, I think because of the kind of strife I had been in, you know, acting is always one step closer than you think. And I think the turmoil and the kind of strife and struggle I had been in was so, was such a shadow next to me, and that was Greta. You know, I'm not lesbian, I'm not German. I've never even smoked pot, you guys. I've never been high in my life. But the day is young, and I'm an Asper.

• 29:11Sam Fragoso?

  By the way, we're in Colorado, and secondly, the moment I walked onstage, I just looked like I'm stoned, no matter what.

• 29:20Sam Fragoso?

  The amount of time to get confused for the kid in Dazed and Confused is-

• 29:23Speaker 02

  Oh, yes, oh, god, yes.

• 29:25Sam Fragoso?

  Unsettling, it's unsettling.

• 29:27Speaker 02

  But, no, I mean, but Lisa, I went into that, I was in L.A. trying to get a job, and I flew back. She was at the very end of casting, I think she was going to cast this other person. And I flew in and I just read for her. And I had a German accent in my head because my roommate at the time had a German agent and I used to take calls for him all the time. And so, I don't know, it was a gift of my career because it really changed everything for me. And Lisa Cholodenko is a brilliant human being. I never knew, playing a German lesbian heroin addict, that it would be such a gift. But it was such a beautiful experience, but I have to tell you the greatest story.

• 30:11Speaker 02

  So my mother and father go to see High Art in New Orleans. It's in the theater. And my mother's very cool. My mother loves it when I'm out on a limb and, you know, they go to see it and they take my great aunt Patsy, my namesake. And she's like, I think, in her 80s at this point. And they go to the theater and they come home and they call me that night and, you know, my mother was like, Patty, you were fabulous, fabulous. Your father loved you. He didn't like seeing you as a heroin addict, but he still loves you. But Aunt Patsy wants to call you tomorrow. I said, okay.

• 30:48Speaker 02

  My Aunt Patsy gets on the phone. She has a very distinct New Orleans... Patty, darling, Aunt Patsy, you're a wonderful, wonderful actress, just wonderful. But let me tell you something. If a director told me I had to be a German lesbian heroin addict, I would have told that director, I can play one of the three.

• 31:16Speaker 02

  On my mother's line.

• 31:20Sam Fragoso?

  Well, why don't we see you play all three, huh? This is a clip from the film High Art.

• 31:27Speaker 04

  You know, this restaurant has a policy about sleeping in here. Oh, yeah. I'm sorry. She's just exhausted. I understand. I'm gonna have to ask you to leave if she falls asleep again.

• 31:41Speaker 04

  Sure. I'm really sorry.

• 31:54Speaker 04

  I can't do this anymore.

• 31:57Speaker 02

  What? You wanna break up with me again?

• 32:04Speaker 04

  Gee.

• 32:08Speaker 04

  I wanna help you get over this.

• 32:10Speaker 02

  Sleep with her if you want. I can't tell you what to do.

• 32:15Speaker 04

  Gee, listen to me.

• 32:16Speaker 02

  She's such a poser. With her stupid ass magazine eye, I don't know what to say in her.

• 32:23Speaker 04

  You're not listening to me.

• 32:27Speaker 04

  I can't wait around and keep talking about when you're gonna change. You need some help, Gee.

• 32:38Speaker 02

  Look at yourself, Lucy.

• 32:48Sam Fragoso?

  I think you shook your head during the entirety of that clip.

• 32:53Speaker 02

  There are things I've done I've never seen. It's just who I am. I really just like to act. I like to do it. I like to experience it. But I really don't like watching myself. I like to watch the other actors. So sometimes I'll just watch the film and watch other people. And then when I'm on the screen, I just dip my head.

• 33:09Sam Fragoso?

  When your mother saw the film, she told New Orleans Magazine, "For the first time in her career, I lost my daughter in the role." When your mother loses you in the character, you have to be pretty excellent.

• 33:25Speaker 02

  She was... My mother was cool. She was very cool.

• 33:30Speaker 02

  She loved... She loved all of us deeply.

• 33:33Sam Fragoso?

  I mean, she lost you in watching it. Did you lose yourself in making that?

• 33:38Speaker 02

  Yeah, I did a little. We were shooting her. We had no money. We had $500,000. We had the biggest heat wave in Brooklyn, and I had on pleather pants. So... It was very easy to be exhausted and shattered and kind of out of it. Because it was just, it was 110 degrees in the apartment. And I just had to be in a certain mindset. I had met with a heroin addict before I shot. Fortunately, an ex heroin addict. But yeah, I think we all lose ourselves. I mean, we lose ourselves at times in these parts. For a good reason.

• 34:19Speaker 02

  Because, you know, if that character is not taking up more space in me than my friends or something I'm reading or something I'm watching on TV, then something's wrong. That has to occupy the most amount of space in my body and my mind and my emotions. And that's, I think, also why me marrying and having children, you know, it is, it's a total immersion that I have. And yet I can also do these deeply emotional scenes and stuff and I don't carry them with me and I'm not an asshole and abuse other people on a set when I have an emotional scene.

• 34:57Speaker 02

  But I do think we have to be cognizant of the fact that acting has very little to do with the head. And it's corny to say, but it is 90% your heart. And if it's not there, you're gonna fail. You're gonna fail.

• 35:16Sam Fragoso?

  You said recently that if you look back at most of my work, there is a common thread that emerges. I think I've played a lot of women on the edge, women on the outskirts, that are bold or different and in very dramatic situations. Is that the product of people asking you to do those parts or you feel most drawn to them?

• 35:36Speaker 02

  I think the more you do these complicated characters, the more people come to you for these characters or you seek them out. But 90% of the work I've done, I was just offered, you know. For many years I auditioned, which is brutal. And that's one of the great things in my life for many years now is I just get offered these beautiful parts, you know, I just, I got called in London to be offered Lily and I just got offered something extraordinary. I can't talk about it, but it's very complicated. In the lead of the film, and I can't talk about it.

• 36:14Sam Fragoso?

  Do you want to give us the initials of the person you're playing?

• 36:15Speaker 02

  No.

• 36:18Sam Fragoso?

  Have you worked with them before?

• 36:20Speaker 02

  I'm not gonna say. But I just got offered this part and I don't know, you know, I get an email. Patty, you've been offered this.

• 36:29Sam Fragoso?

  You don't seem like someone who does emails.

• 36:31Speaker 02

  You know, I don't like them, but I, I, I, but I make myself do them. I like to text, I like to talk on the phone. Oh, this isn't rosé, is it?

• 36:41Sam Fragoso?

  Not yet.

• 36:42Speaker 02

  Oh, this is such a, can I keep this mug?

• 36:45Sam Fragoso?

  Yeah, I think if it keeps going well, yeah, you can keep it.

• 36:49Sam Fragoso?

  You've said, "Acting is intimacy. It's easy to understand why people fall in love when they work together. And it's also why people split up because of working together." Now, that sounds like someone speaking from a place of experience.

• 37:05Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 37:06Sam Fragoso?

  Does falling in love with someone offset, make the work onset better?

• 37:12Speaker 02

  Well, you have to be a little bit in love if you're playing lovers. I think what lives on screen lives off. And I don't mean you have to have an affair with someone you're doing a scene with. I think you can easily successfully do a love scene. First of all, they're very technical and they're the least sexy things alive. But I think just for the most part, if you're telling a love story, like in Lily, I have this beautiful love story with my husband and I've known John Benjamin Hickey for 30 years, I used to date his best friend. And so, it all works, it's all present. You, you can only fake so much as an actor. And when something has to be so created, it then stands as performance and not as being, not as living.

• 37:57Speaker 02

  And I think that's when we fall into traps as actors and I try to avoid them. So, I try my best to bring whatever parts of me align. But I do think, yes, have I fallen in love with some of my co-stars? Of course, my god. I'll give names later, more rosé.

• 38:17Speaker 02

  No, I mean, of course I have. Have I had an affair or two with an unmarried person? Maybe.

• 38:25Sam Fragoso?

  I do have some names, but I'm...

• 38:27Speaker 02

  No.

• 38:32Sam Fragoso?

  It's just too damn early to say. But I've just, I've always been fascinated, I mean, should it just be expected that actors are gonna, you know, there's a chance you're crossing the Rubicon?

• 38:42Speaker 02

  Of course, because, again, you can only fake so much, and also, we are flesh and blood, meeting flesh and blood, we are body upon body. And usually, it's the emotional side of, of the performance that brings you closer to your co-star than anything. But, you know, I did this movie, Elegy, and the very first scene I shot-

• 39:05Sam Fragoso?

  With Sir Ben Kingsley?

• 39:06Speaker 02

  Yes, with Sir Ben. And the very first scene I shot, I was buck-ass naked on top of Sir Ben Kingsley. And I said, "So nice to meet you." Sir Ben. I literally, like, I always called him Sir Ben, and he loved that.

• 39:25Sam Fragoso?

  You said that when you were on top of him?

• 39:27Speaker 02

  Yes, I did.

• 39:28Sam Fragoso?

  Okay. And he said what?

• 39:31Speaker 02

  He was like, "This is a great day."

• 39:37Sam Fragoso?

  That's amazing. Once you made High Art, the door kind of opened for you, and you were in all these movies, and you have this career since then, since 1998, that if we asked everyone in the audience to name their favorite Patricia Clarkson performance, I think most of them would have different answers. And there's very few people who've had a career like that. Like, you were so convincing playing other people, that when you were cast in Shutter Island, Martin Scorsese called the New York Times and said, "For years, I have been watching her, not knowing she was the same actor in all these movies. I have been fooled so many times."

• 40:18Speaker 02

  No, I, look, Marty is, you know, a dream come true when I got that call. You've made, you know, it's one scene in a cave, and I've never looked better, if you remember.

• 40:28Speaker 02

  Woo!

• 40:29Sam Fragoso?

  I do have the clip here.

• 40:30Speaker 02

  No. Oh, God. Oh, God.

• 40:33Sam Fragoso?

  But based on your comments, I'm not gonna play it.

• 40:35Speaker 02

  No, but, um, but working, you know, that's why we live. We live to work with people like Martin Scorsese, but we also lived with Pieces of April, this beautiful Peter Hedges, gorgeous, one of the most beautiful experiences of my life. Station agent, Tom McCarthy, Peter Dinklage, his first movie, Bobby Cannavale. We had the, you know, but, so you live to work with these beautiful minds and souls. I mean, look at who I've worked with.

• 41:00Sam Fragoso?

  But there is no one that has done, I think, the amount of serious, dark, painful parts, and then balanced it with something like Easy A. And I just wanna watch like a second of, we've seen some sad stuff. I wanna play something from that one.

• 41:18Speaker 02

  That boy from yesterday just dropped this off for you.

• 41:20Speaker 04

  Well, put it in the pile of gifts for my other suitors.

• 41:25Speaker 02

  He seems like a nice kid. He seemed a little incredibly gay.

• 41:30Speaker 04

  A dyed-in-the-wool homosexual, that boy is.

• 41:33Speaker 02

  I just want you to know, your father and I are totally supportive. We love you no matter what the sexual orientation of your opposite-sex sex partner.

• 41:40Speaker 04

  We're not dating, Mom.

• 41:42Speaker 02

  And don't worry about not making us grandparents. Although we were kinda hoping you'd get knocked up so we'd have a second shot at raising kids. Really, do it right this time.

• 41:53Speaker 04

  Bye now.

• 41:53Speaker 02

  You know, I dated a homosexual once, for a long time, actually. A long time.

• 42:00Speaker 04

  Dear God, dear Lord, tell me you did not marry and have children with him.

• 42:04Speaker 02

  No.

• 42:06Speaker 02

  Your father is as straight as they come. A little too straight, if you know what I mean, girlfriend.

• 42:11Speaker 04

  I don't. Can you shut the door, please?

• 42:17Speaker 04

  Okay, door's right over there.

• 42:24Sam Fragoso?

  That one you seem to kind of like.

• 42:26Speaker 02

  Yeah. Working with Emma Stone was delicious and perfect. And we witnessed just the making of a star. So it was, and I'm very close to Stanley Tucci. So I had just a beautiful experience on that film.

• 42:39Sam Fragoso?

  Speaking of Stanley Tucci, you know, I was thinking about your work and the Whitman containing multitudes. I think some people contain more and I really do feel like there's so many different people in you. And so as we go back to Lily and the equal pay of it all, this is something you've been outspoken about in Hollywood for a long time. Do you remember when you called your agents that first time to ask how much your co-stars, your male co-stars were making? I think this was in 2007, 2008?

• 43:10Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 43:11Sam Fragoso?

  This is you starring opposite Chris Cooper in Married Life and Stanley Tucci in Blind Date. So what was the phone call to the agent?

• 43:19Speaker 02

  I just said, I want to know what I'm making, what he's making. My part is just as difficult, if not more. We're on par. Like we, there has to be pay parity. I have to have it or I'm not doing it. And that I did change. I changed my salary because thankfully we were very far along in the process and they found more money for me. Yeah.

• 43:44Sam Fragoso?

  When your agent told you that you don't want to know the numbers that some of your co-stars have made, did that upset you?

• 43:53Speaker 02

  Well, that was water under the bridge, you know? And there was nothing I could do about it now, but...

• 44:00Sam Fragoso?

  But their job is to look out for you.

• 44:01Speaker 02

  I know, but that, they don't. That was not part of the Hollywood ethos. That was not part of how we lived in Hollywood. We never questioned our salaries, you guys. We just didn't. We felt so lucky to get a job. Because, you know, look at all of the male-dominated series, male-dominated movies. We have far fewer jobs than men, and so we feel indebted to our industry. When we get one, we bend our knee. But not anymore. We're getting better at this. We're questioning everything. And women have risen tremendously, and especially women of color. And we need way more women of color behind the cameras.

• 44:44Speaker 02

  But like on Lily, our entire crew basically was female. And when I did The Untouchables, even my makeup artist was a man. There was not a single female or a person of color on the set. And now that is not acceptable on any level, on any set, anywhere across our country, and in Europe, too.

• 45:10Sam Fragoso?

  Lilly Ledbetter battled ageism, gender equality, misogyny at every turn. And there's this scene early in the movie where she talks about being passed over for promotions because she wouldn't go to the Ramada. "A woman ain't worth nothing if they don't put out," she says. Now, you had a great turn in the movie She Said about the New York Times piece that exposed Harvey Weinstein. But you had your own run-in with him during The Station Agent, where he said to you, "You will never work again. What he did to me was terrible." Now, by my count, you've made 41 films since then, and he's in Rikers.

• 45:53Sam Fragoso?

  But terrible looked like what?

• 45:56Speaker 02

  Well, this is what happened. I was lucky enough in the year 2003. I had these two beautiful films, Station Agent and Pieces of April, that I loved, you know, unconditionally. I loved both of them. But I was the leading lady of Station Agent, and I was the sporting character in Pieces of April. I'm not April, Katie Holmes is. And Bingham Ray, the great Bingham Ray, who owned October Films at the time, God has that missed right now, had already started a supporting campaign for me. But Harvey was livid. He liked to fake categorize actors. Put leading actors in supporting category, which I find bullshit. And it's wrong because supporting actors

• 46:39Speaker 02

  need to be honored and need to be in the right place. And it's a real pet peeve of mine. And I said to Harvey, "No, Harvey, I'm the leading lady of Station Agent. I'm in supporting. Support me as the leading. You could win the Oscar in supporting." I said, "I don't care about that." I said, "That's fabulous. What do you mean? You're gonna get me an Oscar?" I said, "Please." I said, "I am staying in leading." So he harassed me. It was, you guys, it was a terrible situation. And he pitted people against me in other film. He was just a disaster.

• 47:10Sam Fragoso?

  He was making calls around town?

• 47:12Speaker 02

  Yes, he was telling, he was threatening me and telling me that I was ruining Station Agent. The only shot they had, I was like, "Support Peter Dinklage, he's brilliant." I stayed. But the amazing thing happened. I'm one of eight actors in the history of, like, an acting. The SAG nominations came out. And I pulled off a leading actress nomination, supporting actress nomination, and ensemble nomination. There's like eight of us in the history of acting that have pulled that out. And that had nothing to do with Harvey. And all he had to do was support me in leading actress for the Oscars. And all that, that's all he had to do.

• 47:52Sam Fragoso?

  Did he stop harassing you after that happened?

• 47:54Speaker 02

  No, he, but he wouldn't even let me, at the ceremony, at the SAG ceremony, he wouldn't even let me sit at the table. I sat alone at his table. He's in Rikers.

• 48:09Speaker 02

  Fucking bastard.

• 48:18Speaker 02

  But I didn't talk about it a lot because I wasn't sexually harassed by him. And the sexual harassment that so many people suffered was unbearable and unconscionable.

• 48:27Sam Fragoso?

  Yeah, but there's all kinds of harassment.

• 48:29Speaker 02

  Yes. No, it was rough. It was rough. They took a beautiful moment in my life and kind of shat on it and, you know.

• 48:35Sam Fragoso?

  Before we go, speaking of the work, I want to end on...

• 48:37Speaker 02

  You've got me all hot and flustered. It's not a hot flash. I'm way past that.

• 48:42Sam Fragoso?

  What?

• 48:43Speaker 02

  I don't know. You just have me hot and flustered.

• 48:45Sam Fragoso?

  Okay.

• 48:48Sam Fragoso?

  Can we turn the lights out?

• 48:54Sam Fragoso?

  I called your friend Sam Rockwell this morning, and I was asking him what piece of yours he likes the most. And he said, "Far and away, it's your turn in Sharp Objects." But I want to talk about the human toll of giving yourself to the work, as we talked about earlier. The reason I keep going back to this is because there's an interview you did with your friend, the poet Howard Altman.

• 49:18Speaker 02

  Wow, yeah.

• 49:20Sam Fragoso?

  Where you had this line that I just, it has just stayed with me all week, and I just wanted to read it for everyone. You said, "Every time I take a role, there's something that shifts in me. It's visceral, it's chemical, and every time it's frightening and exhausting, and it's why I'm always so exhausted. It takes so much of me to act. I don't know how to approach something any other way. It's a blessing and a curse, and I've lived with it since I was 12."

• 49:50Speaker 02

  Well, there is a lot of truth. I mean, I can let that go, but it is, I am exhausted often when I'm acting, yes.

• 49:56Sam Fragoso?

  Well, we've talked about the blessing, but the curse, what does that mean to you?

• 50:03Speaker 02

  Well, the curse is that it, you know, I think it's taken a toll on my personal life. I mean, I think it's taken a toll on me. At times physically, it's taken a toll on me at times mentally. You just have to be honest about it. You know, you can't play these characters to the depth you hope to dive. And not come back up with the bends, you know, you're gonna, you're gonna suffer. But then you're, you're gonna have a beautiful support. I have an incredible family, I have incredible friends. And I'm always buoyed back, but.

• 50:33Sam Fragoso?

  How did you know that at 12? You say 12, what happened at 12 for you to know that?

• 50:37Speaker 02

  Speech class.

• 50:38Sam Fragoso?

  That was it.

• 50:39Speaker 02

  12 or 13, yeah. There's something that changed in me chemically, viscerally. Something changed in my body and in my soul.

• 50:49Sam Fragoso?

  At that time, when you knew you didn't want to have kids, you knew you didn't want to get married. Did you know then at 12 and 14? That you didn't want to wait till you were 50? To pursue your dreams, the way your mom had to wait to pursue her dreams? Did you know that then? That you wanted to start right away?

• 51:10Speaker 02

  No, I, yes, I knew immediately that I needed to work. I needed, you know, I went forward and I left my house, you know? I gave up the security of New Orleans and Baton Rouge and my family and went to New York, which was very frightening and, and then went on to Yale School of Drama, which was brutal and demanding, but extraordinary. And then went to live in New York City with no money and, but I knew I was in hot pursuit. And I knew I loved working and I loved, I loved being creative every day of my life. I loved it, I needed it.

• 51:45Sam Fragoso?

  I guess what I'm getting at is, is the curse actually just the curse of knowing with absolute certainty, your purpose in life? Like the curse and weight of knowing you have an assignment to carry out for the brief time that you're here?

• 52:03Speaker 02

  I, I think that's one of the most profound things that's ever been said. I think it's, that's exactly it. I knew early on, my purpose.

• 52:15Speaker 02

  And I had to live with it, the good, the bad, and the ugly. But I knew that the curse was that I did know the purpose I had in this life. And I had no other purpose, I had no other way to go forward. I just had no other way to go forward. And I knew that early on.

• 52:34Sam Fragoso?

  Well, then, I think it is only fitting that we return to the text that started it all for you. This is the monologue from Our Town that you performed at the age of 14.

• 52:48Speaker 02

  Goodbye to clock ticking and coffee brewing.

• 52:51Sam Fragoso?

  Since we weren't in the audience of that local competition, I thought if you're open to it, you could do a little reading for us.

• 53:07Speaker 02

  I won the competition.

• 53:12Speaker 02

  But Mother gives, one can go back, one can go back there again into the living. I feel it, I know it. Why just then, for a moment, I was thinking about, about the farm. And for a moment, I was there and my baby was on my lap, plain as day. But I won't live over a sad day. I'll choose a happy one. I can choose a birthday at least, can I? I can choose my 12th birthday. Oh, that's the town I knew as a little girl. And look, there's the old white fence that used to be around our house. Oh, I'd forgotten that. And I love it so. Are they inside? I can't bear it. They're so young and beautiful. Why did they ever have to get old? Mama, I'm here, I'm grown up.

• 53:57Speaker 02

  I love you all, everything. I can't look at everything hard enough.

• 54:04Speaker 02

  Good morning, Mama. Oh, Mama, just look at me for one minute, as though you really saw me. Mama, 14 years have gone by, I'm dead. You're a grandmother, Mama. I married George Gibbs, Mama. Wally's dead too, Mama. His appendix burst on a camping trip to North Conway. We felt terrible about it, don't you remember? But just for a moment, now we're all together, Mama, just for a moment now. We're happy. Let's look at one another. I can't, I can't go on, it goes so fast. We don't have the time to look at one another. I didn't realize.

• 54:39Speaker 02

  So all that was going on and we never noticed. Take me back up the hill to my grave. But first, wait. One more look. Goodbye. Goodbye, world. Goodbye, Grover's Corners. Mama and Papa. Goodbye to clocks ticking and Mama's sunflowers and food and coffee. And new ironed dresses and hot baths. And sleeping and waking up. Oh, Earth, you're too wonderful for anyone to realize. Do any human beings ever realize life while they live it? Every, every moment.

• 55:23Speaker 02

  I'm ready to go back.

• 55:30Speaker 02

  So sad.

• 55:36Speaker 02

  It's brutal.

• 55:37Sam Fragoso?

  Yeah.

• 55:39Speaker 02

  I remember that still when I was 14. Lord have mercy.

• 55:43Sam Fragoso?

  That was amazing. Your mother always said to you, Patty, rise above. And I want to thank you so much for doing that time and time again. For reading something you haven't done since 14. Indulging all my questions. It has meant so much to me and I thank all of you for coming.

• 56:05Speaker 02

  Thank you so much for coming.

• 56:08Sam Fragoso?

  Patricia Clarkson, ladies and gentlemen.

• 56:44Sam Fragoso?

  And that's our show.

• 56:47Sam Fragoso?

  I want to give a special thanks this week to Sam Rockwell, Katie Feldman, Mitch Russell, Ava Hartman, Maya Kobe-Rundio, Alison Fleming, Paul Romig-Levitt, and of course, our guest, Patricia Clarkson. Her new film, Lily, is now available to watch on VOD. To learn more about her and her work, visit our show notes at talkeasypod.com. If you'd like to learn more about the Aspen Ideas Festival, visit aspenideas.org. For more episodes like the one you just heard today, I'd recommend Laura Dern, Viola Davis, and Tom Hanks. To hear those and more Lemonada podcasts, listen on Apple, Spotify, or wherever you like to listen. You can subscribe to

• 57:29Sam Fragoso?

  Lemonada Premium for exclusive bonus content and ad-free listening. Just hit the subscribe button on Apple or head to lemonadapremium.com. If you like one of the mugs that Patricia was drinking rosé out of, they come in cream or navy. You can get one at talkeasypod.com/shop. Talk Easy is produced by Caroline Reebok. Our executive producer is Janix Abraha. Today's talk was edited by Adam Jamal and Chris Hines. It was mixed by Andrew Vastola. Our music is by Dylan Peck. Our illustrations are by Chris Shannoy. Research assistance today comes from Kiki Giorgio. Production assistance from Nate Downey. This episode was made in partnership with the good people at Lemonada Media. And

• 58:13Sam Fragoso?

  I'm Sam Fragoso. Thank you for listening to Talk Easy. I'll see you back here next Sunday with a brand new episode. Until then, stay safe and so long.

• 58:35Speaker 05

  History gets written, then rewritten, sometimes by scholars correcting the record, sometimes by committees deciding what a generation of kids will and won't learn. The version that makes it into the textbook isn't always the only story. It's the one that won out. That's the kind of thing Ground News was built for. It shows you how outlets across the spectrum tell the same story, side by side, so you can spot the shading for yourself. Ground News gives each outlet a factuality rating, so you know how much weight to give the source, and shows you who owns it, so you know what's behind it. The Nobel Peace Center called it "an excellent way to stay informed,

• 59:17Speaker 05

  avoid echo chambers, and expand your worldview." So go to groundnews.com/rz. That's G R O U N D N E W S dot com slash R C for 40% off unlimited access vantage plan. Get it yourself or gift it to someone who'd rather know than not. Use my link, groundnews.com/rz, so you get the discount and they know I sent you. If you're a fan of learning all sides of history, then Ground News is for you. One more time, groundnews.com/rz.

• 59:56Speaker 06

  I'm Dan Heath. On What It's Like to Be, I interview people about their jobs. Here's a married couple that drives a long haul truck together.

• 1:00:04Speaker 07

  We backed up and they loaded fresh dead rats.

• 1:00:07Speaker 06

  I mean, how many rats would you guess were back there?

• 1:00:10Speaker 07

  There were 32,000 pounds of them.

• 1:00:12Speaker 06

  32,000 pounds of frozen dead rats.

• 1:00:18Speaker 06

  Find out what it's like to be a long haul trucker, a couples therapist, or an FBI agent, all on the podcast What It's Like to Be.