312 How to Move Forward Without a Plan with Chris Guillebeau

"It's much harder in life to be the establishment than it is to be the underdog." - Chris Guillebeau If you enjoyed this episode, check out show notes, video, and more at http://lewishowes.com/312 Get more from Lewis! Get my New York Times Bestselling book, Make Money Easy! Get The Greatness Mindset audiobook on SpotifyText Lewis AIYouTubeInstagramWebsiteTiktokFacebookX

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Lewis Howes?

  Episode number 312 with New York Times bestselling author Chris Guillebeau. Welcome to the School of Greatness. My name is Lewis Howes, a former pro athlete turned lifestyle entrepreneur. And each week we bring you an inspiring person or message to help you discover how to unlock your inner greatness. Thanks for spending some time with me today. Now let the class begin.

• 0:33Lewis Howes?

  Jimmy Dean said, "I can't change the direction of the wind, but I can adjust my sails to always reach my destination."

• 0:44Lewis Howes?

  Isn't it funny sometimes how things happen in our lives, in our businesses, in our relationships, where we can't change the way things happen, the direction of things. But we can always adjust the way we look at it. We can always adjust our attitudes around it to reshape the direction in order to reach our destination.

• 1:06Lewis Howes?

  I'm very excited to be on with you guys in this episode and thank you guys for being here. We've got my good friend, Chris Guillebeau. And for those who don't know who Chris is, he is a New York Times bestselling author and a modern day explorer. He's traveled to every country in the world and every summer in Portland, he hosts the World Domination Summit, which I had the pleasure of speaking at last year. It was about 3,000 people and it was an incredible experience. He's also the founder of Pioneer Nation, Unconventional Guides, The Travel Hacking Cartel, and numerous other creative projects. And we go deep in this episode. I got a text message after doing this interview with Chris saying,

• 1:48Lewis Howes?

  "Thanks for facilitating this interview with me because there are some things that I hadn't ever shared that I got to share with you in this interview." And there were some times in this interview where things get really raw and real and Chris opens up in a way again that he's never opened up and I hope you guys really get a lot out of this and you take a lot out of it. Some of the things we cover is how to speak and connect with a broad, diverse audience. If you're trying to figure out what your passion is, you gotta make sure you do this one thing when you're trying to figure it out. Also, why winning all the time isn't necessarily a good thing.

• 2:28Lewis Howes?

  When it's a good idea to give something up and to not continue to force something, and how to live in the present moment when you are grieving. Again, we went pretty raw and intimate in this conversation and we had one direction we were going, but the winds changed our sails and we ended up going in a different direction. So, I hope you guys get a lot out of this episode. Also, a couple of side notes. Chris inspired me. You know, he has created this event called the World Domination Summit. He has inspired me. When I went to it last year and I spoke at it, I was moved by the community, by the inspiration, by the magic that was created.

• 3:13Lewis Howes?

  As well, we are releasing, the first time, a full transcript of this interview. So, if you want to check it out and download the transcript as well, and read along while you're listening, or just download it later, go ahead and check that out and let me know what you guys think of that. Leave a comment at the end of LewisHowes.com/312 and let me know if you like having a transcript, if it's helpful for you, if you would like me to continue producing transcripts of all these interviews moving forward. Based on your comments, we'll see if enough people want this and we'll continue to do it or not. This is just a little test run right now. Again, I'm very pumped and excited to introduce you, the one, the only, Chris Gilbo.

• 3:58Lewis Howes?

  Welcome back everyone to the School of Greatness Podcast. Very excited about our guest. His name is Chris Gilbo. What's up, man?

• 4:04Speaker 01

  What's up, man? How you doing?

• 4:06Lewis Howes?

  Doing great. Thanks for being here. You've got a new book out called Born For This, and it's all about how to find the work you were meant to do. Make sure you guys pick this up today ASAP. Get a copy, it's going to be a game changer for you. You've also written a couple of other books. New York Times bestseller of The Happiness of Pursuit. Finding the quest that will bring purpose to your life. So, if you guys don't have this one, just get both at the same time. It's good to see you, man.

• 4:30Speaker 01

  Good to see you too.

• 4:31Lewis Howes?

  It's good that you came here for LA. I'm excited for the book. I'm excited for everything that's going on in your life. And for those that don't know who Chris is, you have been, you know, a big time travel blogging, travel hacking guy for many years, like 10 years or something.

• 4:46Speaker 01

  Eight years or so.

• 4:47Lewis Howes?

  Eight years. You've been writing about it. You've built this community of mostly a lot of travel hackers, then entrepreneurs, then just people that...

• 4:54Speaker 01

  Want to have a great life essentially, right?

• 4:56Chris Guillebeau?

  Yeah, I've never had a demographic, you know, I had like a psychographic of people interested in fun stuff.

• 5:01Speaker 01

  Uh huh, yeah. And you started a conference called World Domination Summit.

• 5:05Chris Guillebeau?

  Yep, where you were a keynote speaker.

• 5:07Speaker 01

  It's five years old now?

• 5:08Chris Guillebeau?

  Yeah, going into six.

• 5:09Speaker 01

  Six years. And I attended this, I've been to a lot of events and this was one of the best I've ever been to. It's like, it's just so inspiring, gets people motivated and the speakers are so talented, the information, the experiences. So you really do it right. And I'm essentially modeling an event around kind of what you've done. So thanks for leading the way.

• 5:27Chris Guillebeau?

  That's awesome.

• 5:28Speaker 01

  And um, tell me about that experience of why you decided to start an event and how it's changed your life or your business or your community because of having one, the importance of that.

• 5:39Chris Guillebeau?

  Yeah, well, it's totally changed my life and it was a very organic thing. It wasn't like I started with a business strategy of, okay, I'm gonna, you know, incorporate this event into my sales goal or something like that. Uh, I, I wrote a book called The Art of Nonconformity when I was first starting and I went on the road to all 50 states and met readers like everywhere. I did my own little book tour and in some places there'd be like 50 people and other places there'd be five, you know, and that was cool.

• 6:05Speaker 01

  Right.

• 6:06Chris Guillebeau?

  And um, I just knew right from the beginning that there was something special about my community or the community. It's not just mine, you know, it's, they're just awesome people. And I wanted to do anything I could to connect them.

• 6:18Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 6:18Chris Guillebeau?

  And I wanted to like, it's awesome to see great people in LA or Portland or wherever, but there's people like all over the world and can't we bring them together? So the, the initial idea was, uh, let's do an in-person gathering and, and let's not make it all about entrepreneurship, even though there's a lot of entrepreneurs there and not all about travel, even though there's a lot of active travelers or arts or, you know, education or whatever. Let's just bring together like-minded people uh, who share these values and the values we ended up with were community, adventure and service. So that's what we decided to build it around and it, it was very organic, you know, didn't know what we were doing, didn't know anything about running events. Um, and maybe that was for the better in the long run. You know, the first year was kind of hard in terms of logistics and

• 7:00Chris Guillebeau?

  just getting overcharged for things and not knowing how to do production and all that stuff. But I think if you get some of the The fundamentals right. If you have the right people, you know, then you can kind of figure out all that stuff later. So just grew from there.

• 7:13Speaker 01

  And how many people have attended over the last five years?

• 7:15Chris Guillebeau?

  Uh, more than 10,000.

• 7:16Speaker 01

  10,000?

• 7:17Chris Guillebeau?

  More than 10,000 have been part of the main event. And then, uh, now we're going to some secondary events, uh, as well so that we can serve more people.

• 7:24Speaker 01

  That's amazing, man. And how has it changed your life or your business? And also, how's it changed your life and business, but also, what do you say to someone who doesn't have a specific niche, you know, because you're speaking to a broad range of, you know, it's kind of like the school of greatness. It's like, well, who's my audience? It's a little bit of everyone, you know, these demographics. So.

• 7:42Chris Guillebeau?

  Yeah, I think that's a strength. I mean, I think that's a, that's a strength, not a weakness. And in my case, like when I started the blog and wrote the book and started all this stuff, I had done a lot of stuff beforehand. And sometimes kind of given up on it or didn't see it through. And I knew I wanted this to be special. And so I had to pick something that was deliberately broad.

• 8:01Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 8:01Chris Guillebeau?

  Like I had to because I'm like, I need to do a lot of different things, you know, to, to be satisfied or to keep going.

• 8:06Speaker 01

  Right.

• 8:07Chris Guillebeau?

  So that's why it was like non-conformity.

• 8:08Speaker 01

  For your own fulfillment.

• 8:09Chris Guillebeau?

  For my own fulfillment and my own motivation.

• 8:11Speaker 01

  To be bored.

• 8:11Chris Guillebeau?

  To be, yeah. And to, and also to serve the community, like to be able to truly serve them. But as for how it's, it's changed and impacted me. I mean, everything I've done since then, kind of, I can trace it back to that, to that, that movement and those initial conversations and all the books that I've written, a lot of the people's stories are in them or, you know, have been referred to different people or something. So.

• 8:32Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 8:32Chris Guillebeau?

  I mean, everything I do is kind of oriented around that.

• 8:34Speaker 01

  Right. And so why did you decide to, uh, talk about this book? Why born for this? How to find the work you're meant to do?

• 8:41Chris Guillebeau?

  So I try to pay attention to conversations and, you know, themes. And I was talking to a lot of different people who talked about finding their dream job. Or creating their dream job. And they used kind of similar language. They talked about winning the career lottery. Like, I feel like I won the lottery and like, I would do, I would do my work for free, you know, but I don't have to, you know, which is great.

• 9:04Speaker 01

  Luckily I get paid.

• 9:04Chris Guillebeau?

  Right, right. You know, and maybe, I don't know if you would consider yourself in that department, but I feel very fortunate, you know, I'm like, this is a great life and great work that I can do. And I don't want to do less work. I'm actually very happy doing what I do. So what, what have those people done? You know, how have those people made choices? Along the way, when they come to a path and you could do this, or you could do this, like, how do they get closer to that thing they were born to do? You know, are there specific actions that we can take? Is it all luck and good fortune? Well, there's probably luck, there's probably some privilege, all these things. But there's also choices. So how can, how can the reader do that? I mean, that's the whole goal. Like, I want to, I'm not a journalist. I'm not just trying to describe a phenomenon. I'm hoping to help the reader with something they can apply to their life and work right away.

• 9:48Speaker 01

  I get this question a lot. People say, well, I don't know, how do I find out what I'm passionate about? You know, they say, how do I find my passion?

• 9:55Chris Guillebeau?

  Yeah. What do you say?

• 9:57Speaker 01

  You know, essentially, I say, what would you do that, you know, even if you didn't get paid, you'd do it?

• 10:02Chris Guillebeau?

  Sure.

• 10:03Speaker 01

  I say, what would you do that keeps you up at night? You know, what's something that keeps you up at night? You can't stop thinking about, I say, what brings you the most joy when you do something? And then I, you know, what's the first thing you want to do when you wake up in the morning?

• 10:15Chris Guillebeau?

  Sure.

• 10:16Speaker 01

  I think when people, if people can associate their biggest joy around something, whether it's like, whenever I go surfing, I just get this natural high, like, and I just, I can't find it anywhere else. I think if you can do things that bring you the most joy, the maximum amount of time, you should stay in that field, in my opinion.

• 10:33Chris Guillebeau?

  Yeah, so I agree. And I've said that for years too, or something similar. Maybe what I've kind of learned, though, through this process is not everyone knows what that thing is.

• 10:42Speaker 01

  Right.

• 10:42Chris Guillebeau?

  You know?

• 10:43Speaker 01

  Absolutely.

• 10:43Chris Guillebeau?

  It actually takes a certain amount of self-actualization to be able to say, here's what brings me joy. Here's the thing that keeps me up at night. Here's the thing that when I get up in the morning I want to do.

• 10:52Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 10:52Chris Guillebeau?

  So for everybody else, they kind of feel like, maybe I'm a loser. You know, like, I don't know what that is. You know, it took me a long time to figure out what that thing was for me. I was, I was getting close to age thirty, and I had done a lot of different things. I'd lived in West Africa for four years. I had started this quest of going to every country in the world. I'd been an entrepreneur. I loved all those things, but I don't think I really had that intersection of, okay, here's what really brings me joy.

• 11:15Speaker 01

  Really?

• 11:15Chris Guillebeau?

  You know, here's what I'm, what I'm actually good at, that I want to kind of immerse myself in.

• 11:19Speaker 01

  You didn't have that awareness at the time?

• 11:21Chris Guillebeau?

  Well, I mean, I'm not saying I was, I was fundamentally unhappy.

• 11:23Speaker 01

  Right, right.

• 11:24Chris Guillebeau?

  But I don't think I necessarily knew what my quote-unquote "passion" was. So I think, I think it's Cal Newport who talks about, don't follow your passion, follow your skill. You know, kind of, kind of figure out what you're good at, and you do that through experimentation.

• 11:36Speaker 01

  Sure.

• 11:37Chris Guillebeau?

  You do that, like, you don't know that you love surfing, and it brings you that natural high until you

• 11:42Speaker 01

  So you tried it?

• 11:43Chris Guillebeau?

  Until you do it, right?

• 11:43Speaker 01

  Yeah, exactly.

• 11:44Chris Guillebeau?

  And so I, I think it's really important if people are in that, that place of Trying to find greatness, trying to find the work they were born to do. It's important to try a lot of different things.

• 11:54Speaker 01

  Sure.

• 11:54Chris Guillebeau?

  Because otherwise, you're not going to necessarily know. Like, because we're not taught as kids necessarily to hear, here are the things that bring you joy. Here are the things that you're good at. And here, you know, here's how you can create a viable career from them. Like, these are skills that are not taught in any kind of education.

• 12:08Speaker 01

  Yeah. So how do you know, you know, the last chapter, you talk about how winners essentially give up, right? Is that the title?

• 12:14Chris Guillebeau?

  Yeah, winners give up all the time. If at first you don't succeed, give up.

• 12:18Speaker 01

  So how do you, what if you win all the time? Everything you do, you really love and you enjoy.

• 12:22Chris Guillebeau?

  Yeah.

• 12:23Speaker 01

  How do you know what to pick and when to kind of like give it up? And be like, okay, Washington, maybe just focus on this one, two or three things as opposed to everything.

• 12:31Chris Guillebeau?

  Yeah, there's a, there's a lot there that we could unpack. I mean, let's start with the beginning. If you win all the time, maybe your goals are too small.

• 12:38Speaker 01

  Interesting.

• 12:39Chris Guillebeau?

  I mean, right? Like, if you're, if you're never disappointed, maybe you haven't wished for enough.

• 12:44Speaker 01

  Or you're, you're playing against, in the wrong game.

• 12:46Chris Guillebeau?

  Yeah, right, you're right.

• 12:47Speaker 01

  You're playing in a small time as opposed to big time or something, yeah.

• 12:49Chris Guillebeau?

  Right, you know? So that's the first thing about that. As for, you know, when to give up, when to keep going. I, I think there are a couple of fundamental questions that you can ask. And if you're in that place of like, I've been doing this for a while. It's not really working out. Should I do something else? Well, you ask yourself, do I still enjoy it? You know, is that, that love still there? And do I think it's working? Do I think it's on the, you know, trajectory to, to achieve success? And then if your answers are no to both of that, I don't enjoy it anymore. I don't think it's going to work, then you give up. If your answers are yes, I still, you know, enjoy it and I think it's going to work, then you keep going. It only gets complicated when the answer, one answer is yes and one answer is no, right?

• 13:33Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 13:33Chris Guillebeau?

  Like, I like this thing, but maybe it's not, you know, what I was born to do.

• 13:37Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 13:37Chris Guillebeau?

  Or this thing is working, but I'm getting kind of tired of it. And so that's, that's when you kind of have to make some more, more difficult decisions. But I'm a big fan of encouraging people to give up on stuff.

• 13:46Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 13:47Chris Guillebeau?

  I feel that this runs counter to the classical, traditional.

• 13:51Speaker 01

  Never give up.

• 13:51Chris Guillebeau?

  Never give up, man. Like, never give up. And, you know, most successful people, most people who are super successful, they did not follow a linear path. They made lots of changes in their life. They even had multiple careers usually, or multiple businesses, or whatever the field is. And so if you had gone to that person, you know, in their first iteration of something, when they were struggling, and said, all you have to do is keep going, right? Just be persistent, because never give up. That's the entrepreneurial, American manifest destiny, pioneering spirit advice. That would have been terrible advice for them, right?

• 14:25Speaker 01

  Right. Yeah. Well, I mean, a lot of people do that, and they stay in something, and they keep investing more and more money, taking money out, and then a million dollars in debt, and they have no product to sell.

• 14:33Chris Guillebeau?

  And they look to the past. They look to what they have spent. They look to their sunk costs. It's like the person who's in the supermarket, well, I mean, all of us have done this, go to the grocery store, and there's this long ass line, you're like waiting like 20 minutes, and then a new line opens up next, next, but, and you're like, should I go over there? Or should I stay? And you want to stay because like, I've waited so long.

• 14:52Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 14:53Chris Guillebeau?

  Doesn't matter.

• 14:53Speaker 01

  Invested so much.

• 14:54Chris Guillebeau?

  It doesn't matter how much you've invested. If the new lane is open, that's where you should go.

• 14:57Speaker 01

  Just cut your losses.

• 14:58Chris Guillebeau?

  Right.

• 14:58Speaker 01

  Yeah. Interesting.

• 14:59Chris Guillebeau?

  And you did that, and you did that. I mean, I wrote about that in the book.

• 15:03Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 15:03Chris Guillebeau?

  You know, your story of pursuing professional athletics.

• 15:06Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 15:07Chris Guillebeau?

  A lot of people have, could have gone down that road and ended up very differently, you know?

• 15:11Speaker 01

  Exactly.

• 15:12Chris Guillebeau?

  A lot of people, a lot of people do.

• 15:14Speaker 01

  Right.

• 15:14Chris Guillebeau?

  I mean, most, most people who pursue professional athletics and get to a certain very high level like you did, but then have to change, or they get injured, or whatever, they actually don't have great lives, as you probably know.

• 15:24Speaker 01

  No. I mean, a lot of the pro athletes are, become very depressed, or even some have committed suicide, because their identity is gone. Everything they put in their whole life to their pursuit, what they were born to do, now they don't have something they're born to do, which is another topic. How do you, when your thing you were born to do is over.

• 15:41Chris Guillebeau?

  Yeah.

• 15:42Speaker 01

  And you, you know, for whatever reason, you can't do it.

• 15:45Chris Guillebeau?

  Sure.

• 15:45Speaker 01

  How do you transition into the next thing? Because you've got a long life left.

• 15:51Chris Guillebeau?

  Right.

• 15:51Speaker 01

  How do you transition so you're not miserable?

• 15:53Chris Guillebeau?

  Sure. Well, you managed to do it.

• 15:54Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 15:55Chris Guillebeau?

  You've done it very well. You know, the book is called Born for This, but I don't necessarily think everyone has one single thing that they should do. I mean, there is more than one path. I feel like we put so much pressure on ourselves. It's just like, you know, the follow your passion thing. We put so much pressure on ourselves to know what this thing is, and I must find my destiny. I must find my calling, my mission. I've probably been guilty of using these words too. But, you know, the reality is there is more than one path that we can go down. I think what's important is, like in the book, I use this model of joy, money, and flow. And joy is like the things you love to do. Money is the viable answer for that, how it can be sustainable. Because I'm not talking about a hobby. I'm talking about something that, you know, pays the bills and allows you to support your family or whatever.

• 16:38Chris Guillebeau?

  And then flow is that thing of skill, right? Of actually losing yourself in your work, of being excited to get up in the morning.

• 16:45Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 16:45Chris Guillebeau?

  And all that. So I think the whole goal is to get closer and closer to that intersection, and you can do that in different ways.

• 16:51Speaker 01

  Yeah. The way I talk about it is FIP, Fun, Impact, Profit.

• 16:55Chris Guillebeau?

  Yeah.

• 16:55Speaker 01

  So is it?

• 16:56Chris Guillebeau?

  It's great.

• 16:56Speaker 01

  Is it a lot of fun for you? Is it impactful for you and for the people that you're working with in it? And is it profitable for you?

• 17:02Chris Guillebeau?

  Right. Okay, great.

• 17:03Speaker 01

  If you can do that, I think it's, you're probably born for that.

• 17:06Chris Guillebeau?

  Right. And so, yeah, it's good. And so what we could say is, people settle all the time. And in different seasons in life, maybe you don't actually have all three. You don't, you don't have the FIP or the Joy, Money, Flow.

• 17:18Speaker 01

  Right.

• 17:19Chris Guillebeau?

  So that's okay. You know, it's been plenty of people out there do kind of make trade-offs and compromises. Maybe they don't actually love their job, but it provides for something else. It's okay. But I would say if you're, you're listening to this, if you're watching this, you're part of the School of Greatness, like you want to be great.

• 17:35Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 17:35Chris Guillebeau?

  Like, what is the goal? The goal actually is to get closer to that convergence.

• 17:39Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 17:39Chris Guillebeau?

  I mean, the goal is to find that, and we're always on a journey.

• 17:41Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 17:42Chris Guillebeau?

  Uh, toward it. But that's what we, that's what we want.

• 17:44Speaker 01

  Yeah. And there's always an off-season. Every year, there's always something about off-season where, just like in sports, you can't just play in the playoffs all year round for your whole life. You'll kill yourself if you're playing like in a championship game every day. So you've got to have these off-seasons, these times to reflect and see, is it still fun for me? Am I still in the flow? Is it still something that helps me grow? Is it impactful? Is it profitable? You know, all these things, I think you need to constantly be aware and ask yourself the questions.

• 18:09Chris Guillebeau?

  Yeah.

• 18:11Speaker 01

  That's cool. I'm curious, what is, who's the most influential person for you growing up?

• 18:16Chris Guillebeau?

  My dad was definitely the most influential.

• 18:19Speaker 01

  What was the biggest lesson that you learned from him?

• 18:22Chris Guillebeau?

  My dad kind of taught through example, you know, and my dad, I, you know, I was a kid, I, I thought that my dad knew everything. I could always go to him with a question about science or a question about, you know, sports or whatever. But he mostly taught through example. I just remember him being very generous and, you know, I liked reading books as a kid. So I've often told the story of like, when I was a kid, we would go to the bookstore and I could just, I could just pick out books and he would buy them. And, and, you know, we were a middle-class family. My mom and dad were divorced, so he's kind of, he's not making a ton of money or whatever, but like the books are something he would always invest in. So I kind of remember like him just encouraging learning and, you know, encouraging me to kind of experiment and find my way.

• 19:07Speaker 01

  What's the most memorable moment from ten to seventeen for you? Bring the moment that brought you the most joy, the most memorable in your mind right now?

• 19:15Chris Guillebeau?

  Yeah, ten to seventeen was not actually a good time in my life.

• 19:18Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 19:18Chris Guillebeau?

  Yeah.

• 19:18Speaker 01

  Well, is there a memorable moment that brought you joy?

• 19:21Chris Guillebeau?

  Yeah, ten to seventeen were kind of some hard years, actually. Um, you know, like I said, parents were split up and I was going back and forth between different, different families. Um, I was a juvenile delinquent for a little while.

• 19:31Speaker 01

  Really?

• 19:31Chris Guillebeau?

  Yeah.

• 19:32Speaker 01

  How long were you in for?

• 19:34Chris Guillebeau?

  How long was I in for? Um, I was in, I was in in for maybe a couple of weeks or so. Um, but I also had lots of emotional struggles as well. I had, I was in some treatment centers, uh, from, you know, age eleven, twelve, age thirteen, age fourteen, kind of off and on. And, and then, uh, you know, I was able to kind of get out and, and find my way.

• 19:53Speaker 01

  Right.

• 19:53Chris Guillebeau?

  But when I think of ten to seventeen, I actually don't really think of, of good years. Maybe towards the end, I started thinking about, like, I didn't go to high school. I went to one year of high school and I dropped out. Um, but then I did go to college, like I found this way to kind of sneak into college, basically.

• 20:07Speaker 01

  One year of high school and dropped out?

• 20:08Chris Guillebeau?

  Yeah, that's correct.

• 20:09Speaker 01

  Wow.

• 20:09Chris Guillebeau?

  Yeah.

• 20:09Speaker 01

  So how'd you, how'd you get into college?

• 20:11Chris Guillebeau?

  Well, I, I went to community college and they didn't check very carefully.

• 20:13Speaker 01

  Wow, interesting.

• 20:14Chris Guillebeau?

  And after I had been, uh,

• 20:16Speaker 01

  Two years?

• 20:16Chris Guillebeau?

  It felt like a quarter or two, they kind of realized, but I'm like, well, he's doing okay. You know, like I actually liked learning. Like I said, when I was a kid, I loved learning, but I didn't, didn't do well with structure and authority. So by the time I was in college, you can kind of pick and choose a little bit, your schedule and your classes and some things you have to do, but other things you can choose. So I liked that.

• 20:33Speaker 01

  Interesting.

• 20:34Chris Guillebeau?

  And then I, so then I was drawn to the independence and like the autonomy of kind of finding my way. And so I got a little bit better, but it, it took some time.

• 20:41Speaker 01

  Okay, so. Still don't know the most memorable moment, or the most joyful moment. What was the lowest moment of those seven years, since there was a lot of them?

• 20:50Chris Guillebeau?

  Yeah, I mean, honestly, Louis, I can think of a couple of times in that period when I didn't have any hope. And I felt like I had nothing to live for. And I mean, it's, it's interesting to look back now because, you know, I obviously like so much has happened and I've had this amazing life and I feel very fortunate to, to do everything that I can do and I've had all these great experiences, but yeah, as a, as a kid, it was, as a kid, I really kind of struggled.

• 21:20Speaker 01

  Yeah, I can relate to that. I mean, when I was in third and fourth grade and when I get sent to the principal's office, I remember not having any friends and being in the bottom of my class and just being like a little slower than everyone. And getting bullied a lot, even though I was about this tall then, uh, I would just go to the principal's office and be like, uh, you know, I don't feel like living anymore. There's no reason for me to be alive. What's the point?

• 21:40Chris Guillebeau?

  Wow.

• 21:40Speaker 01

  Cause I just didn't feel accepted. I didn't feel like I was smart and I didn't feel like I was growing. So I can definitely relate to that. I mean, I think probably a lot of young kids probably go through something like that at some point. I would think, who knows how deep it is or how, you know, painful it is, but I feel your pain, man.

• 21:58Speaker 01

  What do you think was the biggest lesson you learned through those years of all those moments?

• 22:03Chris Guillebeau?

  Somehow, and I don't know how, but somehow I learned to transform this rejection, which I think was kind of a, a theme, like feeling rejected, not necessarily, not necessarily bullied, but kind of like rejected and unloved,

• 22:21Chris Guillebeau?

  into confidence. I don't quite know how I did that, but I kind of used it. It was like all these things are against me, or at least I perceive them to be against me. Right? I have this perception that the world is against me and somehow I was able to. Say, okay, I'm gonna fight back. And I don't know where that moment was, but I was able to like, I'll show them. You know, and I think being rejected or being told it won't work is a very motivating force. Or it can be, right? Because you're like, I'm gonna, I'm gonna go out and prove that person wrong. That's my whole life. You know, right? I'm gonna be, and, and being an underdog is a great, great thing to be, you know? I think it's much, much harder in life to be the establishment than it is to be the underdog. Because the underdog is hungry. Yeah. And the underdog has something to prove.

• 23:06Chris Guillebeau?

  And the underdog is motivated. Uh, so I guess at a certain point I became motivated. Do you know how old you were? Or was that like the end of high school? Or, or I guess the end of your teen years? Yeah, motivation came around like age 15, age 16. And then, uh, I mean, I had some low moments after that, but there was like a corner I turned for sure. Right, okay. So. Wow, that's cool. So I asked you a question beforehand and I said, you know, what's a question? No one's ever asked that you would like to answer. What was your response? Well, we were talking about some stuff and I said, uh, nobody's actually ever asked me about anxiety or depression. Okay. And we've touched on it a little, a little bit here, but mostly in childhood. And, and something I'm kind of, you know, dealing with now is got this business thing going on.

• 23:48Chris Guillebeau?

  I've got this new book out, very excited about the book, like totally believe in it. You have a conference that's been getting bigger and better every year. Right? All these good things. I'm going out on the road to meet readers and I really, really like that. Um, you know, first book I did 63 cities. Wow. Um, in this, this tour I'm doing 30. So I talked to somebody the other day and he said, you're only doing 30 cities. It's like, that's pretty funny. Yeah. So all that's great, um, but I do feel like kind of experiencing this, this maybe sustained period of, of anxiety or sadness, and I've called it sadness for a while. And I think, you know, maybe at a certain point, like you have to call a spade a spade. And maybe it's actually depression. And so depression, of course, is a clinical term, like no one can diagnose, you know?

• 24:32Chris Guillebeau?

  I can't diagnose myself with that. But, uh, maybe this is something that I actually need to kind of pay attention to instead of running from. I don't feel like I've been running from it. I think maybe I've just been kind of putting it in a corner. You know, I've been like, well, I've got my stuff and I'm keeping busy and I like to say busy. But maybe I'm staying busy in some ways so that I don't have to deal with other stuff. And I haven't had the tools, the skills to know how to do that.

• 24:56Speaker 01

  Now, can you explain what that feels like? This anxiety or sadness or depression, what that feels like on a daily, when you wake up on a day or at night? What does that look like? So I understand.

• 25:06Chris Guillebeau?

  Right, right. So, you know, my understanding is it's different for different people. For me, it just kind of feels flat. It just kind of feels like, you know, I'm going through my day and I'm doing stuff. And I do have, you know, some moments of joy and, and like, I really do like getting things done. And like, I feel like motivated through productivity. But maybe I'm just feeling like a disconnect between my short-term actions and how that connects to a long-term vision. And I don't know, I just, I feel like I'm, I feel like I'm being ungrateful. And that bothers me because I want to live a life of gratitude. And just like you, like gratitude has always been one of my values, at least one of my named values.

• 25:48Chris Guillebeau?

  But I feel like maybe, you know, at a certain point, just as before, we talked about something positive. Like I had this rejection, I turned it into like confidence. Somehow maybe I've turned gratitude into like, I don't know, something that I'm just saying and not really living. And so I'm kind of going back to like, what, what does it mean, you know, to live with gratitude? And, and I don't know, there's probably more to it, but that's the first thing I think of.

• 26:12Speaker 01

  What's your vision right now? Long-term vision?

• 26:15Chris Guillebeau?

  My vision is to serve this great community, to do a good job of helping people with their life and work, especially alternative unconventional work. And, and somehow I feel like there is some actualization that I have to come to myself. Like I kind of paused there because a good friend, a mutual friend of ours, Lisa Rankin, has been talking with me about doing inner work. And I know this is something that you know a lot about, but for me, it's quite new.

• 26:43Speaker 01

  Sure.

• 26:44Chris Guillebeau?

  You know, and so as part of this process, I've actually been seeing a therapist as well. And like I go into this session and, and like, I don't have the vocabulary. You know, she's asking me like questions about how does this make you feel? And I'm like, well, I don't know. What do you mean? How does it make me feel? You know, and it's like, how do you? How does it feel in your body? Like, what do you? How does it feel in my body? I don't know. You know?

• 27:03Speaker 01

  Right.

• 27:03Chris Guillebeau?

  Like, I feel like it feels so far behind. You know, it's like.

• 27:06Speaker 01

  She probably says you're disconnected or you're disconnected to your body and your emotions or.

• 27:11Chris Guillebeau?

  Yeah, so I'm trying to figure out like, you know, one, how to explain this. But first, how do I? How do I figure it out for myself? And what does it mean to do inner work? And, and, um, you know, I want to be kind to others, but how can I also, you know, be kind to myself? And that will probably help everything all around.

• 27:27Speaker 01

  When did it start? When did sadness or anxiety start happening? And, and why do you think it happened to a guy who's got? It seems like he's got everything under control, figured out, you know? Where people would be, you know, killing other people to have a blog like yours and the audience and the books and success and the huge conferences.

• 27:46Chris Guillebeau?

  This is the thing, you know, like, I don't want to sound like an asshole.

• 27:48Speaker 01

  No, you don't mean like.

• 27:49Chris Guillebeau?

  People, everything exactly you said. That's how, that's what I think every day.

• 27:52Speaker 01

  Sure, sure.

• 27:53Chris Guillebeau?

  I'm like, yeah, I got like all this stuff, right? I don't want to be like, hey, I'm like struggling in my self-esteem or my self-worth or like, I'm anxious like.

• 28:00Speaker 01

  I don't think there's anything wrong with it. I think it's, you know, Junior Seau was a 10 or something plus, uh, all pro, 10 year all pro in the NFL. Played for 15 or something years and then committed suicide a couple of years after because he didn't feel like, you know, he was sad and he had anxiety and he had depression. And he didn't know what to live for anymore, essentially.

• 28:20Chris Guillebeau?

  Right. And I mean, that's true. I think I know that on an intellectual level. You know, I think I heard Jason Mraz talk about this a little bit once. He said, uh, you know, just because you're successful doesn't mean you can't experience melancholy.

• 28:31Speaker 01

  Absolutely.

• 28:32Chris Guillebeau?

  And I really liked that because I kind of related to that. So I understand it on an intellectual level. It's more just like an emotional level.

• 28:37Speaker 01

  Sure.

• 28:38Chris Guillebeau?

  Cause I do feel the same as you, like with great power comes great responsibility. So I've got to suck it up and figure it out so that I can serve my community. And I guess what I'm realizing is just sucking it up isn't really working.

• 28:49Speaker 01

  Right, you tried it for.

• 28:50Chris Guillebeau?

  Yeah. You know, like, I'm really good at kind of like persevering.

• 28:53Speaker 01

  Right.

• 28:54Chris Guillebeau?

  And, and so this is, this is the thing I don't know what to do with.

• 28:56Speaker 01

  When did you notice it start happening? Like you started feeling flat?

• 29:01Speaker 01

  Was it before last year or when the, when the incident happened?

• 29:05Chris Guillebeau?

  Yeah, so for, for those who don't know, my brother passed away last year and he was thirty one.

• 29:11Speaker 01

  How old are you?

• 29:12Chris Guillebeau?

  I'm thirty seven.

• 29:13Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 29:14Chris Guillebeau?

  So that was, I mean, definitely a major thing that kind of, you know, put me on that path. I don't think that's, that's all of it. But it still feels very new to me and it's not something that I know quite how to, how to deal with.

• 29:30Speaker 01

  Right, yeah, yeah. And so were you feeling this before that or did you feel like after that, that's when it really was like, it hit you in a way where you're like, this doesn't make sense? Because I remember you saying at the event, you were just like, there's essentially, you said, there's no reason for this. Like, I don't, I don't believe there was a reason for this.

• 29:46Chris Guillebeau?

  Yeah, no, of course not.

• 29:47Speaker 01

  I think you even said something like, you know, usually I like to say there's a reason for everything, but there's no reason for this.

• 29:51Chris Guillebeau?

  Yeah, I would never say that again. You know, I think that's a terrible thing to say. Like, everything happens for a reason. If you, even if you haven't experienced like a tremendous loss, a personal loss in your life, if you look around the world and you can see poverty and disasters and all kinds of terrible things, like, you know, sometimes things happen, but there's not a reason for them.

• 30:09Speaker 01

  Of course.

• 30:10Chris Guillebeau?

  So I don't identify this as like, you know, the sole, like, the sole reason for my discontent. Um, I think I've been struggling for a while.

• 30:21Speaker 01

  Was a while mean years or?

• 30:22Chris Guillebeau?

  Yeah, a couple of years. Like, it's, it's like a, it's kind of like a path. I mean, some of it, we talked about identity. You brought up this point about being a professional athlete. I had this quest of going to every country in the world.

• 30:32Speaker 01

  You did it?

• 30:33Chris Guillebeau?

  Yeah, I did it, which is a problem.

• 30:35Speaker 01

  Ten years, right?

• 30:36Chris Guillebeau?

  Yeah, ten years, eleven, eleven years.

• 30:38Speaker 01

  Now what?

• 30:38Chris Guillebeau?

  Yeah, we talked about it a little bit, actually, in a, in a previous interview, you know, for the, for the last book and this is actually very common for anybody who pursues a quest or a big dream. You know, like you get to the end and you're like, cool.

• 30:50Speaker 01

  It's like you go back to the Hobbit, you know, it's like getting, finding the ring and then you go back to the Hobbit.

• 30:55Chris Guillebeau?

  Right, right, right.

• 30:56Speaker 01

  Adventure's over, right?

• 30:58Chris Guillebeau?

  Right. And so I think what I'm figuring out is, um, and I said this at the time, but I didn't, it's like the disconnect between the intellectual knowledge and the emotional knowledge. I said at the time, You know, because everybody was like, what's the next quest? You know? And they're expecting the answer to be some kind of like big travel thing. You know, I'm gonna go to the moon. You know, I'm gonna like go down to the like the center of the earth. I don't know, whatever, you know, or more places or like in the jungle. And I knew that I knew that the answer wasn't that. Uh, I knew that, you know, the answer had had to do something with community. The answer was like, the answer is actually like going deeper in the kind of work that I'm trying to do to to impact people. That's what I said, you know, a year and a half or two years ago. Now I think maybe I have a little bit more emotional awareness that I could modify that and say, okay, that's all true.

• 31:44Chris Guillebeau?

  Um, but I think a big part of it that I was missing before is this aspect of inner work. And and figuring out how I can deal with the loss of my brother. Um, how I can be a good person, how I can somehow transform tragedy and trauma and sadness and anxiety and all these kind of things. Into something that is that is somehow positive. Hmm. You know, not that I would, not that I would, uh, you know, ever say that that this was a good thing that happened. It was a terrible thing that happened.

• 32:16Speaker 01

  Um, but. Explain what happened or was it? I forget exactly what happened.

• 32:21Chris Guillebeau?

  So my brother made a tragic choice. That's what happened.

• 32:24Speaker 01

  Yeah. Okay. And.

• 32:26Chris Guillebeau?

  And it was very, it seemed very impulsive. And, uh, there, I mean, like, looking back, we can kind of identify, you know, maybe some signs or something. But at the time, none of us had any idea.

• 32:38Speaker 01

  Right. What's been coming up for you this last eight, nine months in this process? You know, you've been working with someone on this. What do you feel like has been coming up for you? Is there any lessons that you've learned from this? I haven't lost a family member that close to me. So I have no context of how you're feeling and I'm not gonna act like I do now you're feeling. But I can. Assume that there are people listening who have lost someone very close to them, who can relate completely to what you're feeling right now. So I'm curious, what the lesson is you're gaining or what you're learning about yourself in this process?

• 33:11Chris Guillebeau?

  It's a tricky thing because, you know, in my books and in my blog and all this, I write prescriptive. I try to write prescriptively and here are the steps. And if you want to travel the world, here's how you get the frequent flyer miles to do it. If you want to start a business, here are the eight steps. This is what, you know, is so new to me because I don't know that there are eight steps. I don't know that there's like, here's lesson number one, here's lesson number two. Like I have like, sometimes moments of insight or whatever, but I don't know, like, I feel like it's like, it's not like a hierarchy of lessons. It's more like a cobweb or something. And somehow maybe they connect, but I don't quite, you know, see where they are. So this is like, I feel like this is the new quest, you know, which is not something I ever would have

• 33:55Speaker 01

  It's not what you set out to go for, right?

• 33:57Chris Guillebeau?

  And I don't even, I'm not even really describing it in very like descriptive terms because I don't necessarily know what's going to happen at the end or what the outcome is. But I feel like somehow, somehow I have to be better because of this. Somehow I have to, to, you know, honor my brother. Maybe learn some lessons that he wasn't able to learn. And I don't necessarily know what all those are.

• 34:24Speaker 01

  Right, right.

• 34:25Chris Guillebeau?

  But I feel like that's, that's what I have to do.

• 34:27Speaker 01

  Yeah. What do you think's the best way to honor him?

• 34:31Chris Guillebeau?

  I don't know yet. I don't think it's going to be, like, I don't think it's going to be something you could package.

• 34:37Speaker 01

  Sure.

• 34:38Chris Guillebeau?

  Do you know what I mean?

• 34:38Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah.

• 34:39Chris Guillebeau?

  It's not like there's a foundation. It's like, one day I'm going to come out of this, I'm going to start a charity. You know, and I'm going to like, the rest of my life, I'm going to raise money for this charity. That's, that's too packaged.

• 34:49Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 34:50Chris Guillebeau?

  So it's, it's deeper. I don't know what it is, but it's, it's not something that I could just say one sentence, here's how I'm going to honor my brother. The goal is to figure that out.

• 35:03Speaker 01

  What's your vision for yourself during this process? Have you thought about that or you just kind of like one day at a time? Like?

• 35:09Chris Guillebeau?

  No, I'm actually not very good at one day at a time. I think that's a very good strategy. I'm very future oriented, which is kind of frustrating in a situation like this. Because, you know, one, the situation with Ken, my brother, I can't change that. Nothing in the future could ever change that. And then also, not just that situation, but just sadness and anxiety in general. It's kind of hard because I want to be able to like, point to the one year plan and the five year plan, the 10 year plan. That's what I've done.

• 35:40Speaker 01

  That's what you're good at.

• 35:40Chris Guillebeau?

  That's what I've, yeah, that's really good at that.

• 35:41Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 35:42Chris Guillebeau?

  So now it's like, that's kind of taken from me and.

• 35:44Speaker 01

  You feel like you don't have a one or 10 year plan?

• 35:47Chris Guillebeau?

  I feel like I have a good one year plan. I don't feel like I have a good 10 year plan, no.

• 35:50Speaker 01

  And why is that upsetting to you? Or why does that bring you anxiety?

• 35:53Chris Guillebeau?

  Because it's brought me comfort in the past to have it. And so now I don't have it.

• 35:58Speaker 01

  So now you're forced to live in the moment?

• 36:00Chris Guillebeau?

  Yeah.

• 36:00Speaker 01

  Or be more present, it sounds like, and not have a plan, not have a future like mapped out for you.

• 36:05Chris Guillebeau?

  Maybe so.

• 36:06Speaker 01

  Huh.

• 36:07Chris Guillebeau?

  It's all new.

• 36:08Speaker 01

  Interesting. Okay. What's so scary about living in the moment? Or not having a plan?

• 36:12Chris Guillebeau?

  I don't know if it's scary. It's unfamiliar.

• 36:14Speaker 01

  Uh huh. Okay.

• 36:16Chris Guillebeau?

  You know, for, I mean, that's, that's why I had the quest. I could always say I'm doing this. I was doing lots of other stuff too. But then I had this anchor point.

• 36:24Speaker 01

  Right.

• 36:24Chris Guillebeau?

  You know?

• 36:25Speaker 01

  Right.

• 36:25Chris Guillebeau?

  And if you always have something planned, if you always have something that you're kind of working toward, then you don't necessarily have to answer all these difficult day to day questions.

• 36:36Speaker 01

  What's the most difficult day to day question?

• 36:38Chris Guillebeau?

  Well, the different, I mean, the questions of, of like, what's going on in our minds, like, why, why am I sometimes unhappy even though I have a great life and, and great success in lots of different ways? Those kind of questions.

• 36:52Speaker 01

  And why do you think it is at the end of the day? Have you thought more and more about this?

• 36:57Chris Guillebeau?

  I'm just kind of delving into it now. I mean, it's really, it's good to have this conversation with you because I can say honestly, I have, I have not had this conversation, certainly not in any kind of public setting like this at all, you know? I mean, the, the limited conversations have been like with very close friends and

• 37:14Speaker 01

  Probably not this intimate either.

• 37:15Chris Guillebeau?

  Therapy session, there's not usually a microphone and a headset associated with it. So that's why sometimes like I don't know exactly how to answer.

• 37:23Speaker 01

  Sure. Okay. Well, what do you think has come up for you in these sessions? The reason I'm sticking in this was because

• 37:29Chris Guillebeau?

  That's fine.

• 37:29Speaker 01

  I wanna, I wanna, you know, I love to have clarity too.

• 37:33Chris Guillebeau?

  Yeah.

• 37:33Speaker 01

  You know what I mean? For me, I'm a solutions type of guy. And so I'm trying to uncover, you know, what it is because I think actually a lot of people are going to be appreciating this process. Uh, you know, if you can't, if you're not watching this, you know, Chris is a little uncomfortable.

• 37:49Speaker 01

  But I think it's important because I don't think you're alone, man. I don't think you're alone. I think it's a lot of people. Maybe they have the success you do, maybe they don't.

• 37:59Speaker 01

  But they're at a crossroads where they're not sure what's gonna happen the next three, five, 10 years. They don't have a plan figured out. They're at a crossroads, they're uncertain, they're feeling like flat.

• 38:10Chris Guillebeau?

  Yeah.

• 38:10Speaker 01

  And I think this is more people than you think.

• 38:13Chris Guillebeau?

  Sure.

• 38:13Speaker 01

  Feel this way.

• 38:14Chris Guillebeau?

  Sure.

• 38:14Speaker 01

  You know, obviously you have your own emotions and your own feelings and your own, uh, you know, life that you've experienced, but I think people are feeling a similar way. That is really powerful and so I want to keep talking about this. I don't know. I want to keep, I want to keep diving into this.

• 38:30Chris Guillebeau?

  Yeah, I'm not necessarily uncomfortable in having this conversation.

• 38:33Speaker 01

  Sure.

• 38:34Chris Guillebeau?

  It's more that I'm uncomfortable in, in the situation, you know, that's what sucks.

• 38:37Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 38:38Chris Guillebeau?

  You know, actually I, I want to be open and transparent about this because I realize a lot of people have struggles. And for me, like, so we've said, I've had different struggles and over time, and now I had this situational tragedy. I guess, I guess my point for me is I'm tired of accepting it. Like I'm tired of

• 38:55Speaker 01

  Accepting what?

• 38:55Chris Guillebeau?

  Accepting that, accepting that I'm always going to be anxious or I'm going to be sad or something. It's this complicated thing because to get through something like this, you have to make your peace with it. That's something that I'm kind of learning at least in the counseling.

• 39:08Speaker 01

  Is this the peace with your own flatness in your life or the peace with your brother's death or?

• 39:13Chris Guillebeau?

  I don't know because it's all connected. It's all like, I haven't found a way to separate it. Um, so I think you have to kind of like walk through that. You know, I, I went on a trip. Recently, and it was it was a great trip. Like, I went around the world, had a lot of really fun experiences. And so the trip was great. Situationally, everything was fine. But I was also, almost, almost every single day, I cried. And so, kind of came back out of that, and, you know, went back to my little counseling session, and I told that story, and, and she said, "That's great." I was like, "What do you mean?" She's like, "I think we're gonna, you know, be able to work through this now, because you're, you're, you know, coming to, you're not coming to peace with it, but we're actually acknowledging, we're trying to acknowledge it, you know?

• 39:52Chris Guillebeau?

  But I guess what I said about accepting it is, maybe I feel like for a while, as, as we said before, I kind of sweep it under the rug, or put it aside, and I guess it's just come to a point in my life where I have to do something about this, like, I have to. And I don't know exactly, you know, how I will resolve that, but somehow I need to.

• 40:14Speaker 01

  What do you want to feel every day? If you can make a declaration like, "This moment moving forward, this is how I want to feel."

• 40:19Chris Guillebeau?

  Purposeful.

• 40:20Speaker 01

  Okay, what else?

• 40:22Chris Guillebeau?

  I mean, that's good. Start with that.

• 40:23Speaker 01

  Purposeful, joyful?

• 40:24Chris Guillebeau?

  Sure. Purposeful, joyful.

• 40:27Speaker 01

  Filled, satisfied?

• 40:28Chris Guillebeau?

  Yeah, those are good words.

• 40:29Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 40:30Chris Guillebeau?

  Yeah, I think that I like the top two first, you know, purposeful, joyful.

• 40:34Speaker 01

  But not sadness and anxiety?

• 40:35Chris Guillebeau?

  Yeah, not to excess, you know, like, I think it's important to feel a range of emotions. It's kind of like we said before, like, if you're always a winner, like, maybe you're not trying hard enough, right? So I actually want to try for some stuff and not, not, you know, achieve it. But yeah, I think it's the sustained nature of it.

• 40:50Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 40:51Chris Guillebeau?

  That is problematic.

• 40:53Speaker 01

  Interesting. And what do you think's gonna create that for you on a daily basis? Purposeful and joyful.

• 41:00Chris Guillebeau?

  Yeah. I don't know, because I feel like I love what I do. This is the thing. Like, I actually am enjoying my work and enjoying my stuff.

• 41:08Speaker 01

  You're doing what you're born to do, it sounds like.

• 41:09Chris Guillebeau?

  I think so, yeah, I feel that way. I do. Can't imagine anything, any different career or whatever. So I think it comes back to that inner work thing, and, you know, maybe a year from now or something, we'll come back, and I can explain it more articulately.

• 41:22Speaker 01

  Sure, sure. Do you think joyfulness and purposefulness is a choice?

• 41:26Chris Guillebeau?

  Maybe for a long time I would have said yes, but I don't think so now.

• 41:29Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 41:29Chris Guillebeau?

  Because I would make that choice.

• 41:31Speaker 01

  Choose to be joyful?

• 41:32Chris Guillebeau?

  Those are my values. Like we said, gratitude's my value. Like I, I don't want to be ungrateful. Part of the flat feeling is, you know, sometimes in the past, if I've had like this anxiety or whatever, been able to, to get out of it by helping someone in some way.

• 41:47Speaker 01

  Being in service.

• 41:48Chris Guillebeau?

  This is a great, a great strategy.

• 41:49Speaker 01

  Create flow, you create joy.

• 41:51Chris Guillebeau?

  Or just do something to help someone.

• 41:53Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 41:53Chris Guillebeau?

  It's a, it's a, it's a great motivator.

• 41:54Speaker 01

  It's amazing, yeah. All Tristic, yes.

• 41:56Chris Guillebeau?

  For sure. So I guess my, my challenge here in the flatness is sometimes that doesn't work for me. That's why, that's kind of why I realized I've gone to another level with it.

• 42:05Speaker 01

  Wow.

• 42:05Chris Guillebeau?

  And why I needed to like maybe seek some help or whatever because, you know, like I see something on the news about some terrible thing that happened and I don't necessarily feel empathy for that. And that troubles me, you know? I don't want to be like, here's this terrible thing that happened and I'm just sad about myself and that's ridiculous. But it is what it is. And so I'm.

• 42:26Speaker 01

  So in this last year, have you been in service as equally as before or more than before?

• 42:31Chris Guillebeau?

  That's a, that's a very good question. I don't know if I've asked myself that question.

• 42:35Speaker 01

  Sounds like you've been traveling the world and going on adventures.

• 42:37Chris Guillebeau?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 42:38Speaker 01

  But have you done like, and not just like, let me put up a donation page.

• 42:42Chris Guillebeau?

  Yeah, yeah, for sure, for sure.

• 42:43Speaker 01

  But actually just shown up and like.

• 42:44Chris Guillebeau?

  Yeah.

• 42:45Speaker 01

  Feed the homeless or whatever?

• 42:46Chris Guillebeau?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 42:47Speaker 01

  You know, something as simple as in your local community.

• 42:50Chris Guillebeau?

  Right, right.

• 42:51Speaker 01

  Have you just shown up every day for an hour and saying, how can I give?

• 42:55Chris Guillebeau?

  I haven't done something so strategic, you know, and intentional as that. Uh, I think, I mean, I've tried to like incorporate habits of giving. But I'm sure I could definitely make some progress on that. Yeah.

• 43:08Speaker 01

  Okay. You know, I'm curious because.

• 43:10Chris Guillebeau?

  Maybe it is a question of like, do we change our behavior and then the, and then whatever follows after that?

• 43:16Speaker 01

  Yeah. I mean, Tony Robbins talks about this, whether you believe it or not, but it's like you change your physical state and your emotional state changes.

• 43:22Chris Guillebeau?

  Okay.

• 43:22Speaker 01

  Uh, and the same thing, you change your emotional state and your physical state changes. You know, if you, if you stand up tall, it's like the, what's Amy Cuddy, is that her name? About the power of body language?

• 43:33Chris Guillebeau?

  Okay, yeah.

• 43:33Speaker 01

  You know, just putting your arms outstretched, it's gonna build testosterone and increase your confidence and your joy and your happiness. So I think a lot of our physical state, you know, not slouching over, not being in the fetal position all day, emotionally and physically, so to say. If you're in that position, I think you're gonna continue to stay in a cycle of sadness or anxiety. But when you choose every day to build positive habits, I think.

• 43:56Chris Guillebeau?

  Yeah.

• 43:57Speaker 01

  Um, of I'm gonna work out, I'm gonna give every single day for thirty minutes to this community center. I'm going to whatever X, Y, and Z, I think you're gonna start reprogramming yourself to being like, you know what? I'm seeing other examples of actually how I'm connecting and building relationships with people who have it way worse than I do. And it feels great to serve and support them, but I'm also seeing, you know, that there's lessons here. I don't think we're ever gonna learn like the reason for all the things that happen. But I'm curious about this because I feel like at some point in my life, this is gonna happen to me. You know what I mean? Like, it's inevitable. With all the people I'm close with, it's inevitable that someone is gonna die at some point in my life.

• 44:35Chris Guillebeau?

  I don't know if you can prepare for it.

• 44:37Speaker 01

  And how am I gonna prepare for this?

• 44:38Chris Guillebeau?

  I don't think, I don't think you prepare for it.

• 44:40Speaker 01

  Yeah, but how am I gonna be like, you know what? This is gonna suck for a while, you know, I'm probably gonna be sad and depressed and go through a range of anger and frustration and guilt or whatever that I'm feeling. And that's okay. I think it's okay to feel those things. But I think what's interesting is to know how to eventually pick yourself up and start working in a positive way to be purposeful.

• 45:05Chris Guillebeau?

  I think though, I mean, everything you just said, totally correct. I think though, sometimes something unpredictable happens.

• 45:12Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 45:12Chris Guillebeau?

  You know, in these situations, like everything you just expressed, like it's gonna be terrible, then it's gonna be okay. But just like in a quest, you know, any good quest, it's like there's this progress toward a goal, there is an endpoint, et cetera. But if it's, if it's a true quest, something happens along the way that changes things and you don't, you know, you don't necessarily know what that is. And despite all the skills that you have, despite all the life experience that you have, it's gonna be put to the test, actually. Because, you know, this, whatever this unpredictable thing is, you know, by its nature, you didn't know it was going to happen and you, and you didn't necessarily say, okay, here's, you know, here's where I was going to be sad or here's where I was gonna struggle and then I'm gonna be okay, you know? Like, you might think you're okay at a certain point, then something else.

• 45:56Speaker 01

  Which brings me back to the point of born for this and giving up. If you're on a quest for something you're born to do and you believe in your heart, I'm born to do this thing.

• 46:05Chris Guillebeau?

  Yeah.

• 46:06Speaker 01

  And then something comes at you and stops you or makes you go off track. How do you know when to continue the quest? And when, as it's part of the quest, as every quest has this, and when you're actually just supposed to give up?

• 46:19Chris Guillebeau?

  Sure. Well, I think it's important in the, in these kinds of situations to look at what is the, what is the underlying motivation? What is the goal? Maybe what is the value? And like if we talk about different things like becoming a professional athlete, you know, what, what was the, the real goal? Wasn't the real goal greatness?

• 46:37Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 46:38Chris Guillebeau?

  Essentially, which is exactly what you have, I don't want to just say parlayed it into, because that's kind of like a career thing, but I mean, your life, you know?

• 46:44Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 46:45Chris Guillebeau?

  Greatness was, was the goal.

• 46:46Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 46:48Chris Guillebeau?

  You know, writing books and hosting these events, I mean, ultimately the goal is community and serving humanity in some way.

• 46:54Speaker 01

  Connection.

• 46:55Chris Guillebeau?

  Connection, right? So I think sometimes, you know, you're working toward this thing, you feel like you're born to do it, but then you can't. There's still some direction there. As you go deeper, which is exactly what I'm learning to do.

• 47:08Speaker 01

  Have you met anyone over the last year who's gone through a similar experience as you? Who has made it out the other side? Have you met anyone like that?

• 47:19Chris Guillebeau?

  Yeah, I have. We've actually had a couple of different people speak to our community about this experience. And I've, I've talked with a few people. I still am quite, kind of not really in this research stage. Like I haven't actually read a lot of books on this. Like what happened with my brother, there's a whole canon of books and research.

• 47:39Speaker 01

  Sure.

• 47:39Chris Guillebeau?

  On that topic, but I actually haven't, haven't gone near it. Just because it still feels kind of so fresh. And so at a certain point, I think I'll kind of delve into that more, but not yet.

• 47:49Speaker 01

  What do you think will happen when you go into it?

• 47:51Chris Guillebeau?

  Something unpredictable.

• 47:53Speaker 01

  Interesting. Okay.

• 47:54Chris Guillebeau?

  Maybe not. I mean, maybe it's easy to predict and say, well, it kind of forced a deeper level of, of introspection or grief or.

• 48:01Speaker 01

  What are you, I mean, what are you afraid of to read, you know, to look into that? What's, what's the biggest thing holding you back? And when is enough time for you?

• 48:08Chris Guillebeau?

  Who's to say? You know? So we're recording this conversation just a little bit in advance of when the book comes out. And.

• 48:17Chris Guillebeau?

  You know, now it's been eight months and I haven't gone back to look at my brother's emails, you know, in all this time. And at some point, I'm sure I will.

• 48:29Speaker 01

  What emails he's sent you?

• 48:30Chris Guillebeau?

  Yeah, emails sent sent me, like our emails, you know, like, you know.

• 48:33Speaker 01

  You haven't Google Gmail'd his name?

• 48:35Chris Guillebeau?

  No, I have not.

• 48:36Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 48:36Chris Guillebeau?

  Cause obviously we have, you know, 20 years of.

• 48:40Speaker 01

  You were very close?

• 48:41Chris Guillebeau?

  Yeah. 20 years of of regular email correspondence about, you know, all kinds of stuff about video games, about travel. He was in the army, served in Afghanistan and Iraq. So his stories from there, you know, at a certain point, I want to go through that, of course. Uh, but I just haven't been able to yet.

• 48:58Speaker 01

  When do you think you will?

• 49:00Chris Guillebeau?

  I don't know. I don't think I should wait, you know.

• 49:02Speaker 01

  Do you want to give yourself, like, uh, are you looking to give yourself a deadline? Are you just waiting for the right moment?

• 49:07Chris Guillebeau?

  This is the, this is the thing about this stuff. You can't package it.

• 49:10Speaker 01

  Sure.

• 49:10Chris Guillebeau?

  It's like, it's like the ultimate answer. How will I honor my brother? I don't know, because I can't put it in a box and say, this is my box of honoring my brother. Um, so it's the same kind of thing. Like, when will you be ready to do that? I'm not sure. And I'm the kind of person that would very much like to know. I would like to have it on my calendar, you know, next Tuesday at this time, I'm, you know, and maybe that is the.

• 49:31Speaker 01

  What if you just schedule it?

• 49:32Chris Guillebeau?

  Yeah, maybe that is the best way.

• 49:34Speaker 01

  What if you just phased it?

• 49:35Chris Guillebeau?

  Maybe so, maybe so.

• 49:36Speaker 01

  What's the worst thing that would happen?

• 49:37Chris Guillebeau?

  I know. I guess what I'm just learning though, is like, I could do that for sure. And maybe that is the best, best approach. What I'm learning is the, the tools and the skills and the resources that I have that have helped me, you know, throughout my life, that have helped me like get into college without going to high school, you know, get out of being a juvenile delinquent, make something in my life, travel, be an entrepreneur, all these different skills. Uh, they are not sufficient for what I need to do right now. That's what I know.

• 50:02Speaker 01

  Interesting.

• 50:03Chris Guillebeau?

  So that kind of thinking, let me schedule it, let me do this. Yeah, I like it. I want to do that. But what I'm saying is it hasn't, it hasn't quite worked. I've kind of run into this wall or this ceiling or whatever you call it, that barricade that I can't apply the same reasoning to.

• 50:16Speaker 01

  Sure. And maybe you don't know the tools of how to handle it. Once you do look at the emails or once you do go through the stuff.

• 50:22Chris Guillebeau?

  Or maybe it's very cathartic and good, but I don't know. Just at the moment, I just feel that there's some kind of block there.

• 50:29Speaker 01

  Well, if there's anything I can do to support, let me know. Let me know how I can.

• 50:32Chris Guillebeau?

  Thank you.

• 50:33Speaker 01

  If you want an accountability buddy or just someone to to ask questions to, I'm here for you. What would you say is your philosophy this year? I think you've had a creed, you know, for all these different things, but.

• 50:45Chris Guillebeau?

  Yeah, yeah. Sounds like a lot has shifted for you.

• 50:47Speaker 01

  Yeah, I think constantly evolves.

• 50:48Chris Guillebeau?

  Sure, sure. I think I still have this the same overall worldview. You know, my philosophy, which is which is true in in life and career is you don't have to live your life the way others expect.

• 50:59Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 50:59Chris Guillebeau?

  You can do good things for yourself and for others at the same time. It's not a false choice. It's not a dichotomy. You know, this is this has been my message for a long time. I still very much believe in it. So now it's just a question of adding to that and applying that in a different way and realizing that. You know, the goals that I have now are not necessarily related to deliverables. Because just as I like to schedule things on my calendar, you know, I also like to have a deliverable.

• 51:27Speaker 01

  Sure.

• 51:27Chris Guillebeau?

  Here's the next book. Here's the next thing. Here's the next whatever. But I don't see quite what the deliverable is here.

• 51:34Speaker 01

  On a scale of one to 10 every day, 10 being the happiest, how happy do you think you are on average? 10 being the happiest, you could ever be the happiest day of your life every day, or that feeling.

• 51:46Chris Guillebeau?

  Maybe six, six, seven, six, seven, and I'd like to be an eight or a nine. Wouldn't I wouldn't want to be a 10 because I always want to have something to to reach for.

• 51:54Speaker 01

  Sure, sure. Okay. What if you're just always a 10?

• 51:57Chris Guillebeau?

  Well, then it'd have to be an 11 point scale.

• 51:58Speaker 01

  Okay, gotcha. Okay. What do you think it's going to take for you to get to eight, nine?

• 52:04Chris Guillebeau?

  Figuring this stuff out.

• 52:06Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 52:06Chris Guillebeau?

  You know, can't change the past. I know that. So got it. Got to, you know, apply it somewhere in the future.

• 52:12Speaker 01

  What would you tell me if I was going through this? If I was like, yeah, I'm about a six every day. And you knew my, you know, the story, the same story happened. What do you think you would tell me? I'm just curious.

• 52:23Chris Guillebeau?

  Yeah, I I don't know. I don't know what I would tell you. I mean, if I hadn't had this experience, it's like we were sitting on the opposite side.

• 52:30Speaker 01

  You had this experience a year ago. It just happened to me last month. Similar type of situation. And you'd already been there. You're like, still in it. But I was like, man, I'm screwed right now. I'm I'm a one. You know, I don't know what to do. What would you? What would you give me?

• 52:48Chris Guillebeau?

  I don't think I would give you advice. I would give you companionship. And I would give you empathy. And I would say, I'm so sorry. I'm so, so sorry.

• 52:57Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 52:58Chris Guillebeau?

  And this is not okay. And yes, you should hang in there, you know, let us know what you need, etc. Uh, but that's gonna sound very hollow to you.

• 53:07Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 53:08Chris Guillebeau?

  So the biggest thing I could say is I'm so sorry.

• 53:11Speaker 01

  Hmm. Have you been getting enough of that?

• 53:14Chris Guillebeau?

  Sure, I think so.

• 53:15Speaker 01

  You're being companionship and?

• 53:16Chris Guillebeau?

  Yeah, I think, I mean, a lot of people don't know, you know, what to do with this kind of, and I totally get that. Yeah, I get it.

• 53:23Speaker 01

  What do you?

• 53:23Chris Guillebeau?

  Yeah.

• 53:24Speaker 01

  How do you do? You don't sound

• 53:26Chris Guillebeau?

  Sure.

• 53:26Speaker 01

  like you said, like hollow.

• 53:27Chris Guillebeau?

  Right, right.

• 53:28Speaker 01

  Just like everyone says the same thing.

• 53:30Chris Guillebeau?

  Right, right.

• 53:30Speaker 01

  How do you truly? Because I think it's, it goes against both walls. It goes against the person's walls of not knowing how to deal with it, of all the misemotions of understanding it to someone who's not going through with it. Well, this is uncomfortable for me, too, because now I have to face things that I have to really go somewhere to be able to connect with someone at a level so that they feel loved and accepted and.

• 53:54Chris Guillebeau?

  Yeah, but that's compassion.

• 53:55Speaker 01

  It is compassion.

• 53:56Chris Guillebeau?

  That is compassion.

• 53:57Speaker 01

  A lot of people aren't good at that, though.

• 53:58Chris Guillebeau?

  Yeah, well, compassion is a skill probably that you acquire as well.

• 54:02Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 54:02Chris Guillebeau?

  And maybe you you can acquire it through your own life trauma, or you can also acquire acquire it through caring and understanding that that being there or being available or or reaching out is good, not expecting, you know, reply or something.

• 54:17Speaker 01

  What's the thing, the tool, skill, or thing you've gained more than anything in the last year because of this?

• 54:25Chris Guillebeau?

  Yeah.

• 54:25Speaker 01

  Like, are you more compassionate towards other people? Are you more connected? Do you look people in the eyes with more intimacy? Is there something that you've noticed about yourself where like, I was never this way before this happened?

• 54:37Chris Guillebeau?

  Yeah, also a very good question. Not something that I've considered.

• 54:41Speaker 01

  Like, before I met, I mean, before this happened. I never saw you this vulnerable.

• 54:46Chris Guillebeau?

  Sure.

• 54:47Speaker 01

  You were just like the guy who had it figured out.

• 54:49Chris Guillebeau?

  Yeah.

• 54:50Speaker 01

  The guy who was just like off to the next. But now I'm seeing like a whole new Chris who's just like.

• 54:55Chris Guillebeau?

  I think I've gained an appreciation for, you know, I keep using this phrase inner work. There's probably other, other terms and phrases for it because I still lack the vocabulary. I guess I've gained an appreciation for whatever is required to be mindful and to, to kind of go within yourself. And, and maybe look and see, you know, some bad parts of yourself or some things you're uncomfortable with. Uh, or some things that are bringing you down from the outside and trying to navigate that. I think maybe an appreciation for, you know, the fact that this is a skill. And this is something that can be learned and people do go through, you know, terrible experiences. Uh, and they are able, you know, many of them are able to come out on the other side. And to not, you know, live in depression for decades, um, to not be traumatized forever.

• 55:40Chris Guillebeau?

  And, you know, understanding that there is some, there is some kind of path to finding that. And it's, it's not found like, you know, in the sidebar of a prescriptive nonfiction book necessarily. Um, or even on a great podcast.

• 55:55Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 55:56Chris Guillebeau?

  But there is a path somewhere.

• 55:57Speaker 01

  Sure.

• 55:57Chris Guillebeau?

  So now I believe that. And again, intellectual knowledge, emotional knowledge. Um, Jonathan Fields is a, is a great mutual friend of ours. Um, you know, Jonathan is, is very, very good at this.

• 56:07Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 56:07Chris Guillebeau?

  And I've always, I've always understood that he's very good at it. I haven't always understood exactly what it is.

• 56:12Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 56:13Chris Guillebeau?

  Um, and there's other people as well. So I think I'm, I'm kind of, I've gained an appreciation for that.

• 56:18Speaker 01

  What would you say is your superpower?

• 56:20Chris Guillebeau?

  In the past, I would have said my superpower is, uh, always knowing what to do next.

• 56:26Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 56:26Chris Guillebeau?

  And believing in the next step is, is I, I love to have a next step.

• 56:30Speaker 01

  Uh huh.

• 56:31Chris Guillebeau?

  You know? Um.

• 56:32Speaker 01

  In the now?

• 56:33Chris Guillebeau?

  In the now. In the now, I'm, I'm still committed. I'm still like, you know.

• 56:38Speaker 01

  Still believe in the next step?

• 56:39Chris Guillebeau?

  Yeah, I still believe in the next step for sure. I just don't, I don't necessarily always know what it is. Uh, you know, I do keep going and we talked about giving up and I, I definitely like, I do persevere. You know, I can, I can change and I can adapt different strategies, but I'm, I'm going to persevere for sure.

• 56:54Speaker 01

  Yeah. What's, what's your kryptonite?

• 56:57Chris Guillebeau?

  Like the weakness?

• 56:58Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 57:00Chris Guillebeau?

  Maybe falling into the same habit of doing things the same way because it's comfortable. You know, and it's familiar. So I know how to get up early and work really hard and crush stuff out and

• 57:11Speaker 01

  Right.

• 57:11Chris Guillebeau?

  take on another commitment and start another project. I know how to do that. But, you know, actually slowing down is just really hard.

• 57:19Speaker 01

  Have you ever just spent a month doing nothing?

• 57:21Chris Guillebeau?

  No, never. That's kind of terrifying.

• 57:24Speaker 01

  Why?

• 57:25Chris Guillebeau?

  Maybe terrifying is the wrong word. It's unattractive.

• 57:29Chris Guillebeau?

  It sounds boring.

• 57:31Speaker 01

  I wonder what you'd learn from no email, no phone.

• 57:35Chris Guillebeau?

  Can't picture it, man.

• 57:35Speaker 01

  No productivity for even a week.

• 57:39Chris Guillebeau?

  It's a long time.

• 57:40Speaker 01

  Yeah, not a month, but a week. You just like weren't able to produce something or schedule anything or take a phone call or tweet or anything. I just wonder what you

• 57:50Chris Guillebeau?

  Yeah, I don't know. I don't know.

• 57:52Speaker 01

  Might be a new book experiment. I don't know.

• 57:54Chris Guillebeau?

  But then it would relate to productivity.

• 57:55Speaker 01

  Right, that's true.

• 57:58Speaker 01

  You learn how to hack it somehow.

• 58:01Speaker 01

  Interesting. What's your definition of happiness?

• 58:04Chris Guillebeau?

  Forward motion, continuously improving. Improving, you know, my circumstances, my life, as well as improving others' lives. I like the word impact that you used. I like that. I think of influence. Same thing. Not influence in like a celebrity way. Influencers, but true influence. And probably a lot of the people who are listening, like if they don't have blogs or podcasts or books, they still have a lot of influence.

• 58:30Speaker 01

  Yeah, the community, their friends, their family.

• 58:32Chris Guillebeau?

  And that influence is actually much stronger. You know, we're impacted much, much more by the people who are around us.

• 58:36Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 58:37Chris Guillebeau?

  Than by, you know, somebody who's out there doing something. So I'm interested in influence.

• 58:42Speaker 01

  What's your biggest fear?

• 58:44Chris Guillebeau?

  That I'll remain stuck.

• 58:45Speaker 01

  In the situation you're in currently?

• 58:47Chris Guillebeau?

  Yeah. Stuck in general, that I won't, that I won't, you know, truly find that next quest. That I, that I won't go to the next level. And when I say next level, you know, I don't mean like the next level of revenue in my business, or the next level of book sales, or whatever. Um, but I think there's always a, a next level in our lives. And I think that is like a fundamental desire of, of humanity. Once our lives are met, we want to continue to improve. And I guess my greatest fear, it's not just that I won't go to the next level. The greatest fear is that I have plateaued. And that is troubling.

• 59:28Speaker 01

  How does someone break through a plateau?

• 59:30Chris Guillebeau?

  I feel like that's a question I would ask you, or Jonathan Fields, or somebody else like that.

• 59:35Speaker 01

  Sure.

• 59:35Chris Guillebeau?

  You know, I would be like Louis, help me, help me out because, you know, you, you've been more successful than me in lots of different ways. How can I break through this plateau? And you've had a specific training in it as well, I think, as an athlete.

• 59:45Speaker 01

  Sure. I mean, if for me, there's a couple of different things you could do. You can keep pushing forward, or you can take a step back and reevaluate. And what it sounds like for me, the answer I would give to you is kind of what I was alluding to is I would, you're really good at traveling for adventure, but I would do something different, or you disconnect from the quest to take a step back and evaluate, whether that's doing inner work, meditating, just being, journaling, just to journal, not to like figure out the next prescription.

• 1:00:20Chris Guillebeau?

  Right.

• 1:00:21Speaker 01

  Um, and it's just looking at things differently, doing things you wouldn't normally do. But I think taking time for your mind to be calm, I don't think you've allowed your mind to be calm. Sounds like a lot of noises in your head constantly from different things and situations and frustrations and angers. So I'd say being in nature for a period of time, part of that time being alone, part of that time could be with friends and family, people you care about, and reflection. I think it's really important to reflect. And I go back to what I have in my book, which is called The Perfect Day. And that's where you go in nature and you spend time alone and you. Are just in silence, listening to the birds, the bees, the nature, the trees.

• 1:01:07Speaker 01

  And you reflect on what is it my dream? Because I think we get so caught up in dreaming in the day to day stuff, in the emails, in the texts, the phone, the people that are around us. It's hard for our minds to decompress and to relax. But I think if I was to give you a prescription, I would say find a place to relax without anyone for a while. And that may be a weekend, a long weekend, a week, however long it takes until you get, you know, the answers you need. Sure. And don't go for a reason other than, you know, to just be at peace. So maybe it's a meditation, maybe it's a 10 day guided meditation retreat, maybe it's a yoga thing. But during that, you find time to be alone.

• 1:01:51Speaker 01

  And journal, what is my dream? What is my dream? And you allow yourself to dream like when you're five, six again. Say if I could have anything, because you can, what would it be? And then I walk out of the woods with the answer. Who knows? Maybe you do, maybe you don't. Yeah, yeah, who knows? I mean, you might, you might have the answer, you might not. Right. But I think if you got a plateau, I think you need space and time to step away. That's what I would suggest. I like it. Thanks. Even just taking a hike by yourself without the phone, with just a pen and a piece of paper, just to reflect, I think that's a good step in doing that consistently. So that's what I would prescribe. Cool. Um, final few questions. Yeah. I think this has been great. Sure. I want to make sure everyone gets this book.

• 1:02:36Speaker 01

  Uh, you're going to learn a lot in here, Born For This. And everything that we've been talking about is not in the book, by the way. That's not what the book is about. It's not the book. How to Find The Work You Were Meant To Do. But if you, uh, if you feel, if you do feel stuck, because I think, uh, this is for people that are in your situation who feel stuck, plateau. You know, go back and read your book, essentially. Uh, Born For This, How to Find The Work You Were Meant To Do. I think that's what brings happiness and fulfillment too, when you find that.

• 1:03:05Speaker 01

  And when you can continue to grow in that process. So I think you guys will like the book. I'm in the last chapter, so make sure to check that out. Read the last chapter first if you want to.

• 1:03:13Chris Guillebeau?

  Back to front.

• 1:03:13Speaker 01

  Exactly. And you can go to bornforthisbook.com. You've got a bunch of information there. So people can check it out there, get the book.

• 1:03:24Speaker 01

  Leave a review on Amazon, all that good stuff. You're at Chris Guillebeau. Everywhere online. Do you want to spell the last name? So people can, who are just listening.

• 1:03:32Chris Guillebeau?

  It's like H O U, H O W E S. It's G U I L L E B E A U.

• 1:03:37Speaker 01

  Perfect. So make sure to go get that and support Chris with his current quest. Final few questions. What are you most grateful for today?

• 1:03:49Chris Guillebeau?

  I'm grateful for this conversation. I really am because I don't talk about this a lot. So it's good.

• 1:03:55Speaker 01

  Awesome. And what are you most grateful for in your life recently?

• 1:03:59Chris Guillebeau?

  I am excited about the book. I am excited, not just about the book as a product. But you and I've talked about this before. I think some, some business authors. Write books just to be part of their like marketing thing or something, and that's fine. But I actually like writing books and I like the process of going out and talking with people about the ideas and hearing how they can apply them in their lives. So looking forward to that.

• 1:04:21Speaker 01

  Yeah, cool. This is a question I've been asking people lately. If you had an unlimited amount of money handed to you right now to solve one problem in the world. And you can only use it for one thing. You got one shot at it. What's the problem that you would want to solve?

• 1:04:39Chris Guillebeau?

  Right, right. On a very practical level, I mentioned I lived in Africa for a time and Scott Harrison, the founder of Charity Water. So a very good friend of mine. So on a practical level, I think providing clean water for people everywhere is number one. If I would take it, you know, something that's more kind of related to what I'm doing. Helping people think for themselves more, helping people, you know, make decisions for themselves, helping people like understand. How to do those things that we've been talking about, how to find your perfect day, how to get closer to the intersection of joy, money, flow. The more and more people who are asking questions of themselves and of authority, I think that's, that's all for the better. So it's a very practical need.

• 1:05:21Chris Guillebeau?

  For a lot of people in the world who don't have what we have, but then for everybody who does have what we have. Great power, great responsibility. So how can we apply that more?

• 1:05:28Speaker 01

  Sure. Okay.

• 1:05:31Speaker 01

  It's many, many years from now and it's your last day. But it's been a joyful, amazing ride, right? And you're, you're healthy, everything, but it's just the last day and everyone's there to support you.

• 1:05:42Chris Guillebeau?

  Oh, wow.

• 1:05:43Speaker 01

  And it's a celebration. But for some reason, every book you've ever written has been erased from time. Every blog post, gone. Every audio, gone.

• 1:05:51Chris Guillebeau?

  Yep, yep.

• 1:05:51Speaker 01

  This interview's dead.

• 1:05:52Chris Guillebeau?

  Okay.

• 1:05:53Speaker 01

  And they say, you know, great grandpa, Chris, great, great grandpa, we got a, we got a piece of paper and a pen. And we want you to write down three truths that you know to be true for yourself about everything you've learned in life. This is gonna be essentially the only words we have for you. Lessons that we should apply to our lives. Your three truths for us to, to live by.

• 1:06:21Chris Guillebeau?

  So if I was the great grandpa in that situation, I'd probably have a little bit more time to.

• 1:06:25Speaker 01

  You would have time, yes.

• 1:06:26Chris Guillebeau?

  I'm gonna give a terrible. We give a terrible answer to this or something, you know?

• 1:06:29Speaker 01

  Whatever's coming up for you right now.

• 1:06:30Chris Guillebeau?

  Yeah.

• 1:06:30Speaker 01

  And it may be different in a year.

• 1:06:32Chris Guillebeau?

  No, it's good. It's good.

• 1:06:33Speaker 01

  Three truths.

• 1:06:33Chris Guillebeau?

  You know, we, three truths. Might just be one, you know, interconnected truth. We did talk about gratitude. You know, I talked about my struggle in, in living up to this value that I very much adhere to. I think, I would hope that the truth is, you know, somehow like if you get away from that center, find your way back. And maybe you find your way back by going in the woods. Uh, or maybe you find your way back by changing your career or making another fundamental change in your life or something totally different. I have no idea. But however you can get back to, to that, I think, I think is good. So that's one truth. Can I just give you one, one good one?

• 1:07:10Speaker 01

  Give me two more.

• 1:07:11Chris Guillebeau?

  Two more.

• 1:07:11Speaker 01

  What else you got?

• 1:07:11Chris Guillebeau?

  Okay, all right.

• 1:07:13Speaker 01

  All right. That could be the main one.

• 1:07:15Chris Guillebeau?

  That's fine. That's the center. It's good. Do everything you can to explore and discover. Do make lists. There you go. Make a list. I've always been a big list guy. Make your list of, you don't have to call it a bucket list because that sounds kind of atmospheric. It sounds kind of like. You know, things that'll never happen. Make your like five year list, make your 10 year list. You know, when you're 20, 25, 30, or 15, whatever, like here are all the things I'm gonna, I want to do and then find a way to make those things happen. You know, I've, I've talked about some dissatisfaction in this interview and some struggles that I've had. But I do want to be clear that I've also had a lot of happiness and a lot of the happiness I have, I have had is by identifying big goals.

• 1:07:58Speaker 01

  Really?

• 1:07:58Chris Guillebeau?

  And saying like, I want, and as I've moved toward those goals, the goals have gotten bigger. And I never would have had the vision to go to every country in the world had I not started traveling in the first place. And going to five countries and 10 countries and then setting the goal to go to a hundred and then eventually everyone. Um, as you work toward things, I think you're.

• 1:08:16Speaker 01

  New things open up.

• 1:08:16Chris Guillebeau?

  Yeah, new things open up. So there you go. Work toward things. What's that third truth?

• 1:08:24Chris Guillebeau?

  What's that third?

• 1:08:24Speaker 01

  Come on, grandpa, what is it?

• 1:08:25Chris Guillebeau?

  I know. Come on, man. I'm dying here. Like literally.

• 1:08:30Chris Guillebeau?

  Right. I think the, the third truth, it has to relate somehow to this like inner satisfaction and this inner peace. It has to relate to like being able to see yourself as part of the world, realizing you're not the center of the universe, right? But in your life, you are. Um, in your life, you can only own yourself. You can only own, you know, your own actions, your own growth, your weaknesses. Um, your superpower, your kryptonite. Uh, but coming to terms with that, not in the sense of accepting defeat. Not in the sense of accepting your, your limitations, um, but just realizing like here, here is what you are supposed to do, you know, on this planet, what you were born to do in your life, in your relationships, in your career.

• 1:09:14Chris Guillebeau?

  And as much as possible, creating convergence around that.

• 1:09:18Speaker 01

  Yeah, I love it. It's kind of like nothing matters in the outer world unless you master your inner world.

• 1:09:25Speaker 01

  I got one final question for you, but before I ask it, I gotta acknowledge you, Chris. I acknowledge you for coming down here and allowing me to ask you and keep diving into these questions.

• 1:09:36Chris Guillebeau?

  Good.

• 1:09:36Speaker 01

  I acknowledge you for, man, everything you've been through, man, because I can only imagine what you're going through and I know it's extremely challenging to face something that's really scary and uncomfortable. And saddening, extremely saddening and upsetting and all these things. And I think you're doing it gracefully. Even though I don't, I don't think you're acknowledging yourself enough. I think you've done it gracefully. Most people would not be able to get through this and write a new book and show up and, and you did this two days bef- you know, two days before you did like the biggest event ever and you were graceful. You weren't perfect, you know, you said things that you say, I would never say that again, but you still show up to serve the world.

• 1:10:22Speaker 01

  And I think you don't give yourself enough credit that you should.

• 1:10:24Chris Guillebeau?

  Well, thank you for saying that.

• 1:10:25Speaker 01

  So I want to acknowledge you.

• 1:10:26Chris Guillebeau?

  Thank you.

• 1:10:26Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:10:27Chris Guillebeau?

  We should also maybe acknowledge the listeners and the viewers, because there's probably some people who have also been through something difficult.

• 1:10:32Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:10:32Chris Guillebeau?

  And we should acknowledge their strength as well.

• 1:10:35Speaker 01

  Absolutely, yeah. So I appreciate you being on here. I got one final question for you.

• 1:10:40Chris Guillebeau?

  Okay.

• 1:10:40Speaker 01

  What's your definition of greatness?

• 1:10:43Chris Guillebeau?

  Is greatness different from happiness and purpose and fulfillment? Because I gave that answer of like continuously improving, right?

• 1:10:52Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:10:52Chris Guillebeau?

  Um, maybe that, maybe greatness is like exponential of that, right? Continuously improving, but then not just on like this trajectory, but somehow there's a jump, right? Somehow there's like a, no, I am going to go to that next level. And it's not necessarily this linear next level.

• 1:11:09Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:11:09Chris Guillebeau?

  Right? But it's something like totally different. And I think that's pretty great.

• 1:11:13Speaker 01

  Chris Gillevon.

• 1:11:14Chris Guillebeau?

  Thanks for coming on.

• 1:11:14Speaker 01

  Lewis Howes, thank you.

• 1:11:15Chris Guillebeau?

  Appreciate it.

• 1:11:18Lewis Howes?

  There you have it guys, thank you so, so much for listening and holding the space to let Chris and I share some intimate and powerful messages at the same time. And if you enjoyed this, make sure to share this out with your friends. Again, you guys are born for incredible things. You're born to do amazing things. And I want to get this message out for Chris because I think it really resonates with a lot of people. Again, the link is lewishouse.com/312. Share it out on Twitter, Facebook, Instagram, tag me and Chris. You can get his handle and information on the show notes at lewishouse.com/312. I appreciate you guys, I love you. Thank you so much for being incredible human beings, for listening to this podcast, for

• 1:12:01Lewis Howes?

  sharing the message of greatness to your friends, and constantly stepping up to the next level in your life every single day. You guys rock, and you know what time it is. It's time to go out there and do something great.