How the Mongols Changed the World

After the death of Chinggis Khan, the founder and first Emperor of the Mongol Empire, the land became the largest contiguous empire in history. The Horde, the western portion of the Mongol empire, was the central node in the Eurasian commercial boom of the thirteenth and fourteenth centuries and was a conduit for exchanges across thousands of miles. A force in global development as important as Rome, the Horde left behind a profound legacy in Europe, Russia, Central Asia, and the Middle East, palpable to this day. Marie Favereau, Associate Professor of History at Paris Nanterre University, joins Dan on the podcast. They discuss the Mongols as thinkers who constructed one of the most influential empires in history and how that empire continued to shape, incubate and grow the political cultures it conquered. Sign up to History Hit for hundreds of hours of original documentaries, with a new release every week and ad-free podcasts. Sign up at https://www.historyhit.com/subscribe. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy https://acast.com/privacy for more information.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Dan Snow?

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• 1:03Speaker 01

  Hey, it's Hannah Burner from Giggly Squad and the holidays are around the corner, which means I'm officially entering my hostess Hannah era with Arm & Hammer Hardball Cat Litter. You guys know I love cats and fostering, but when I'm hosting, I do not want my house smelling like cats. I want people focusing on my hosting skills. That's why I love Arm & Hammer Hardball Cat Litter. It delivers long-lasting odour control and forms compact clumps that make clean-up easy, so that's one less thing I need to worry about when people come over. Be guest-ready with Arm & Hammer Cat Litter. Find it now at Walmart or Amazon.

• 1:35Speaker 02

  Hi folks, this is Mark Bittman from the podcast Food with Mark Bittman and I'm here to suggest that you host Thanksgiving with industry-leading quality standards from Whole Foods Market. There are, as usual, no antibiotics ever in their meat department, so carve up turkey and spiral-cut ham with peace of mind. Shop organic sides like stuffing mix and cranberry sauce from 365 Brand. And guess what? All of their fabulous, delectable pies are made with no high-fructose corn syrup. Where else are you going to find that? Gourmet Thanksgiving flavours with the quality you want, only at Whole Foods Market.

• 2:19Dan Snow?

  Hi everyone, welcome to Dancing in History. The greatest contiguous land empire ever carved out: the Mongols. The Mongols built an empire that stretched from Korea to Poland, down into China and South Asia. It is one of the most extraordinary imperial stories in our history, and Marie Favreau has written a beautiful, a wonderful book about it. She's Associate Professor of History at Paris Saint-Émilion University. The Mongols are known for their conquests, but Marie Favreau was able to, which talked to me all about how they ran a huge empire in the aftermath of that initial wave of conquest. She talks about the cross-border integration, trade, messengers, the landscape. It is absolutely extraordinary, I'm massively excited about this podcast. Here is Marie Favreau, talking about the Mongol horde.

• 3:22Dan Snow?

  Marie, thank you very much for coming on.

• 3:24Speaker 03

  Hello, thank you so much for your invitation, I'm delighted to be here.

• 3:28Dan Snow?

  What part of the Mongol Empire are we looking at?

• 3:31Speaker 03

  So we are looking at the western part of the Mongol Empire, and it covers what is Russia today, including southern Siberia, and also including southern Caucasus, and a part of eastern Europe.

• 3:47Dan Snow?

  It is a source of extraordinary fascination, how close... Obviously I'm being very Eurocentric here, but the Mongols, you know, they get to within sight of Vienna, this is a very European story, it's not a story in distant East Asia.

• 4:00Speaker 03

  Absolutely, and that also was a very important aspect of my research. So the people that the Mongol Empire is also connected to European history, and this is something we're not used to know, and I thought that it was really important to show that this was a key aspect of the trade connection of the Mongols with the outside world, through Europe.

• 4:21Dan Snow?

  Why is it that traditionally the Mongols... Didn't feature in traditional historiography. Is it seen that they kind of got lucky, conquered a big empire and then were subsequently eclipsed by the great European empires, perhaps the Mugen Empire in Southern Asia and then the reassertion of Chinese rule in East Asia? Like, why did wonderful books like yours come along and just blow all our minds?

• 4:41Speaker 03

  Yes, I do agree with you. I mean, the historiography wasn't fair to the Mongols, in fact. Their empire was seen as a short moment, like huge but short in time and not well-developed in terms of administration. While in fact, actually, we know now that it lasted, at least in the Western part, until the end of the 15th century. So it was three centuries of power and a very special organisation on the ground. So I think that one of the main reasons probably is that for the Russians, for the Chinese, but also for the Middle Eastern powers, like the Iranians, it was good to see the end of the Mongol Empire very early on because it meant that their own national state would

• 5:26Speaker 03

  be seen as developing earlier than it actually was. So, I mean, let's say that the Mongols disturbed nationalist historiographies everywhere in Eurasia. That's why it was really important for me to sort of recommunicate to wider audience the real truth of that part of history, that big moment of history.

• 5:48Dan Snow?

  Disturbing nationalist historiographies is my jam. I'm a big fan of that. Talk to me first about conquest. The bit that people might know, of course, is they were extraordinary warriors, covering vast distances, using mobility like almost no other force in history. Is that fair? Should we remember that initial military period of conquest? What was remarkable about them in that period?

• 6:11Speaker 03

  Well, that's true, that they were special warriors, but at the same time, they were not very numerous and they had to develop other strategies, sometimes also to impress people because they were not so numerous. If we compare with, you know, the sedentary communities, the sedentary subjects in China, in Iran, in the Russian principalities. So they had to... Be clever in that sense. They would have a very indirect way of controlling access to the resources. So they will really map the territories they want to control and they will not be interested in having, you know, direct control, but really indirect control was more important for them.

• 6:54Speaker 03

  And they will develop tools like tax session tools, administrative tools as well. So it's not only about war.

• 7:02Dan Snow?

  Well, let's talk more. So after this period of conquest, how did they govern and sustain this empire? What was the character of that? Was it very different to what had gone before?

• 7:10Speaker 03

  Yes, it was a very different kind of power. I mean, this was nomadic power. The Mongols would never sedentarize. They would remain nomad and that give them a lot of mobility. That give them an ability to cross huge rivers, which were, you know, very important in the landscape, in the Eurasian landscape. I mean, they will also ask their subjects, the chiefs, let's say, of their subject to come and visit them at their nomadic court. So they would force a sedentary to come to them, otherwise they will let them also, you know, build up their own trade and communities. So that's a very interesting relationship on the long term.

• 7:54Speaker 03

  Especially in the case of the western part of the Mongol Empire, we are thinking about the relationship between the Mongols and the Russians, of course. They were different also because they were certainly more powerful than previous nomadic powers that were in the area before, like the Khazar, for instance, or the Seljuq. So they really developed a huge trade network. Their reach was enormous, like really beyond the traditional frontiers for previous nomadic states or nomadic powers.

• 8:25Dan Snow?

  And you talk about trade. Is it true to say that by, I don't want to use a dodgy parallel, but you know, the Pax Romana, by establishing this trans-Eurasian cultural and political space, it became easier to move across that. It became easier to trade through it.

• 8:42Speaker 03

  It's absolutely true. So I like the word actually Mongol exchange, which I use in my book. I show how this is much more than what we could call Pax Mongolica, like Pax Romana. It's a much bigger thing. It's like the Colombian exchange. So it's a big moment of globalization, pre-modern globalization. But at the same time, it goes beyond the frontiers of the Mongol Empire. And it will reach Northern Europe as well, which is something I show in my book. The connection with even Germany and the Baltic area as well. They will also developed, you know, use tools, just like agreements with merchants, contracts, like written tools,

• 9:24Speaker 03

  which sound a little bit strange for people who don't know that nomads can use writing systems. The Mongol use writing systems. They also use coins, a different kind of coinage. They used also weights, they have the complex weight system. They use glossaries to force people to communicate. And they were really, really new. It was really a clever way to attract more merchants on their roads and also even into their own nomadic camp, which became like trade crossroads, really trade centers.

• 9:58Dan Snow?

  You paint an extraordinary picture of those nomadic camps. The expression might conjure up a certain image to people, but tell us what those nomadic camps were like.

• 10:07Speaker 03

  Well, it's a very important part of my work. That's why I kept this title, this word of horde. Because we have a vision sometimes that is very negative of a horde, like, you know, a crazy bunch of people, excited people. In fact, they were extremely organized. A lot of discipline can be seen in these camps. And these camps were not only for armies, if they are not military camps. I call them mobile cities. You would find women, children. You would also find administration. You would find craftsmanship. You would find a market as well and the herds all around. So it's a huge camp. It's more than a camp. It's really a city. And it's something that doesn't exist anymore today.

• 10:52Speaker 03

  And that I really wanted my readership to get, to imagine, to have the picture of it, because that's really was the core of my work. That's why I kept this word, hoard, and I really hope that people will understand now that a hoard is a fantastic nomadic regime and it's not a negative social construction.

• 11:11Dan Snow?

  It's very interesting. When I was reading your book, I was thinking, maybe it's not as different as we think, because actually medieval kings in Western Europe were peripatetic. You know, it was Henry IV, I think, of France, or Henry II of England, I'm not sure. A Henry, I rule with my sword in my hand and my ass in my saddle, right? So, moving around your empire of your kingdom, this is not such a foreign concept, is it?

• 11:33Speaker 03

  Absolutely. So, you're right. The nomads' mobility, they are too tight of mobility, let's say. One is seasonal. So, usually they follow the big river valleys. When it's winter, they go south. When it's summertime, they go north. And then, in the mid-time, they stop to organize a camp and they walk. So, there's kind of slow movement, seasonal movement, that is kind of predictable, too. At the same time, to communicate between all these nomadic camps, between all these hoards, they organize what we call the yam system, a very complex posts and supply system, that would allow horsemen to cross the whole empire, to jump

• 12:15Speaker 03

  from a hoard to another, to jump from a, you know, a river valley to another, and communicate as quickly as possible when there are important information, or, I mean, not very quickly when it's just, you know, need to cross for ambassadors or for foreign travelers who want to cross the empire. They would go their own way, their own tempo. So, the nomads were really able to combine all these mobilities, in fact, in their empire. And that is very specific to them. And that is very different from what happened in Western Europe at the same time.

• 12:50Dan Snow?

  You listen to Dan's Notes History. We're talking about the Mongols, all coming up.

• 12:59Dan Snow?

  This episode is brought to you by TikTok. I never thought about the history of coffee. You make it, you drink it, nothing more to it. Then I've had a TikTok video about how people in the 1700s would pour their coffee into saucers to let it cool before drinking it. I love that sort of discovery. A detail, but suddenly you're imagining how people lived and drank and socialised. Now I wonder what all baffled historians about us. Mugs. It's a ceramic vessel, but crucially, it has a handle. Well, that's the joy of TikTok, folks. You look for one thing and find yourself somewhere completely different. Your next discovery is waiting on TikTok. Learn more at tiktok.com/discovermore.

• 13:44Speaker 04

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• 14:13Speaker 02

  Hi, folks. This is Mark Bittman from the podcast Food with Mark Bittman. And I'm here to suggest that you host Thanksgiving with industry-leading quality standards from Whole Foods Market. There are, as usual, no antibiotics ever in their meat department. So carve up turkey and spiral-cut ham with peace of mind. Shop organic sides like stuffing mix and cranberry sauce from 365 brand. And guess what? All of their fabulous, delectable pies are made with no high-fructose corn syrup. Where else are you going to find that? Gourmet Thanksgiving flavours with the quality you want, only at Whole Foods Market.

• 14:54Speaker 01

  Hey, it's Hannah Berner from Giggly Squad and the holidays are around the corner, which means I'm officially entering my Hostess Hannah era with Arm & Hammer Hardball Cat Litter. You guys know I love cats and fostering, but when I'm hosting, I do not want my house smelling like cats. I want people focusing on my hosting skills. That's why I love Arm & Hammer Hardball Cat Litter. It delivers long-lasting odor control and forms compact clumps that make cleanup easy, so that's one less thing I need to worry about when people come over. Be guest-ready with Arm & Hammer Cat Litter. Find it now at Walmart or Amazon.

• 15:34Speaker 01

  Okay, I got too excited at the beginning of this interview. We should help our listeners

• 15:38Speaker 03

  just get some geographical boundaries here. You've got the Yuan Dynasty in China, which is descended from the Mongol invaders. What we're talking about is distinct from that, and what stage would the boundary between your horde and Yuan China begin? So it's part of the same empire. We can call it empire, but it's like a big network of Mongol lineage. They are all coming from Genghis Khan, so they have all the same origin. So you have the Yuan rulers in what is China today, you have the Jagatid rulers in Central Asia, in Iran and Azerbaijan, you have the Ilhanid rulers. So they are all connected. And in the

• 16:17Speaker 03

  northwest, you have the Jochid rulers. The rulers were all coming from the eldest son of Genghis Khan, Jochi, and these were the heads of the horde, so the main characters of my book. And it's important to understand that even if they have their own organization and forms of autonomy locally, they still believe they are part of the same world. They still believe they are part of what I call the Mongol order, and they have common economic rules. Common rules regarding trade, regarding all sorts of exchange. They use the same scripts, same coins. So there's

• 16:58Speaker 03

  this interesting combination of political, local autonomy, and belief in being part of the same powerful order, the Mongol order.

• 17:09Dan Snow?

  And was there friction?

• 17:11Speaker 03

  Yeah, there were friction. There were friction, especially in Central Asia. The Horde, in fact, was so the descendant of the eldest son of Genghis Khan, were seen very early on as the most balanced or the wise ones, let's say. And they were really able to sort of playing like diplomacy in between the Mongol families. They were leaders also in that sense, so they didn't try to conquer China, for instance. They really respect each other's territories. But at the same time, the descendant of the eldest son had a special voice. And the others listened to them, to the Jochids. That's also something I think that was new and what I show in my book.

• 17:54Speaker 03

  That's, you know, this leadership comes from the West, the Mongol Empire, and not from the East, in fact.

• 18:00Dan Snow?

  And while we're talking about the West, the Mongols won some extraordinary victories in what is now Poland. What is the Western frontier or frontier zone of the Horde in the period that you're writing about?

• 18:12Speaker 03

  Yeah, Poland was outside, but it's on the frontier. Poland and what we call Poland-Lituania have had a lot of deep relationship with the Mongols. We know they trade together, they were tensions sometimes too. But the frontier really was around what is Bulgaria today. Kiev was inside, but just on the border. So you see, it's really Central Europe would be the frontier zone. But of course, it's not like a frontier like today with nation states. I would say the northwestern frontier was where the steppe stops, in fact. Because for the Mongols, the Mongols, they don't want to sit and try, they still want to live in the steppe area.

• 18:53Speaker 03

  So beyond the steppe area of the Black Sea, then they would stop and they would not go farther away. They were not interested in conquering Constantinople, for instance. They had, you know, good relationship with the Bazantines. They had trade agreements and they would have been able to, but they didn't care. Because they preferred to stay in the steppe and then communicate with the outside world through, as I said, trade or, you know, all sorts of cultural exchanges, embassies.

• 19:24Dan Snow?

  You mentioned the postal service, Elias. We've got this imperial, this cultural space stretching from the East Asian coast to modern day Bulgaria, for example. How long might it take to travel or get a message across that zone?

• 19:36Speaker 03

  We know that from, if you think about what is Bulgaria or Crimea today up to the Lower Volga Valley, for instance, it took around a month and a half, perhaps two months. And beyond that, it could be much slower. Or there was a Karavanserai route. Actually, it's in Kazakhstan today, so in between the Lower Volga and Uorgens, river Uorgens, which is in Turkmenistan today. This part could take, we think, maybe one month or 15 days. And then to go from this area, so Central Asia, to China through

• 20:18Speaker 03

  the land roads, it could be six months. So we have to understand that, although I say that, but we have no idea about the real direction of the trip for really secret postmen. Secret messengers had their own special roads. They would go their own way. They would change horses a lot. And because it was secret, we have no information and we can imagine that it was even faster. But otherwise, we have to imagine that it's a world with a different temple. It's a different way of seeing, travelling and distance. Yet the Mongols were among the faster horsemen at that time.

• 21:00Dan Snow?

  Your work is being so highly praised, it's kind of totally reevaluating the way we see these people. Is that because you've found new sources? Are you just looking again? Are you just coming with a new eye to existing sources? What's your secret?

• 21:13Speaker 03

  Well, I think it's a mix of all this. It's not that I have new sources, but the way I put all these sources together, I think is new. I looked into written texts, really produced by the Mongols themselves. So I'm really interested in hearing their voices. I'm also looking at coinages, objects, archaeology. I'm looking at landscape. So I mentioned the river valleys. But honestly, if I had stayed in archives places and not travelled to see all those places. I would not have even guessed that the rivers were so important. When I went there, I went to the Volga Valley, I went to the Lower Ural Valley, I went to Crimea. And there's water always, everywhere.

• 21:57Speaker 03

  And this changed my view of this organization and the way they managed to control the landscape by, you know, being so close to the lower river valleys. That's fascinating. That's something I think was new, that was not said before. The other thing is also, of course, there are books on the Mongol empires, very good books, but most of the time they focused on the Ilhanit in the south, so Persia, Azerbaijan or China. And we don't have so many books, especially in English language, on the horde, on the north. They were seen as, you know, more primitive and there were a lot of also Russian books that were not translated into European language. So I think that's where I probably am really happy also to share my knowledge

• 22:43Speaker 03

  of this historiography with wider audience. I show that this part of the Mongol Empire was actually a leading part and that it was obscured because of the historiography, because of political reasons, because of traditional way of writing history. I'm so happy to share this new page of I started writing.

• 23:02Dan Snow?

  And I guess in the 19th century in particular, it was just incredibly difficult for Europeans to accept that vast swathes of Europe had for centuries been under the power of Asiatic rulers.

• 23:13Speaker 03

  Absolutely, and all the more that they were nomads, and nomads were like a very negative word, which is so different today. And I think that today we are all ready to accept that nomadic way of life can be a very positive way of life because the relationship with nature is very different. We understand today mobility very much is something that rings a bell for many people. Nomads were seen before as, you know, against civilization, against cities. Well, with Mongols, I could demonstrate that they were also city builders, in fact. They were not against sedentary population. They were different, but they were also able through their imperial organization to accommodate sedentary community. So I think it's in that sense, it's a very interesting lesson

• 23:58Speaker 03

  about how to accommodate different people within one single organization.

• 24:03Dan Snow?

  Thank you very much for talking to us.

• 24:05Speaker 03

  Thank you so much.

• 24:17Speaker 04

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• 24:46Speaker 05

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• 25:37Dan Snow?

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