709: Vanessa Van Edwards - How to Connect with Anyone, Master Small Talk, and Ask the 9 Power Questions That Deepen Every Relationship

The Learning Leader Show with Ryan Hawk www. LearningLeader.com https://www. LearningLeader.com New Book: The Price of Becoming www. LearningLeader.com/Becoming https://www. LearningLeader.com/Becoming Connect with me on X: @RyanHawk12 https://x.com/RyanHawk12 Instagram: @RyanHawk12 https://www.instagram.com/ryanhawk12/?hl=en LinkedIn - Ryan Hawk https://www.linkedin.com/in/ryanhawk12/ Receive "Mindful Monday https://ryanhawk.kit.com/profile" (free) This is brought to you by Insight Global https://insightglobal.com/learningleader/. If you need to hire one person, hire a team of people, or transform your business through Talent or Technical Services, Insight Global's team of 30,000 people around the world has the hustle and grit to deliver. My Guest: Vanessa Van Edwards is a behavioral researcher, Harvard instructor, and founder of Science of People. Her books Captivate and Cues have been translated into 18 languages, and her work reached more than 300 million people last year. Her new book is Conversation: How to Connect with Anyone and Make Every Interaction Count. Key Learnings Small talk is required for big talk. You can't skip it. You can do it better. Conversation is a skill with micro skills underneath it, and small talk is one chapter. Two traps make small talk painful. Autopilot (asking questions without actually connecting) and going for facts instead of stories. Awe is the best small talk ingredient. "Wow, that's amazing," or "What is that?" Positive awe is wow. Negative awe is compassion: "Everything okay? Can I help?" Both solicit stories. Both work only if you mean it. Awe beats a compliment. A compliment lands. Being visibly wowed by something invites the story behind it. Be story ready. When someone asks how you are, don't hand back good, fine, busy. Have something loaded: "Today the craziest thing happened." You break the script with your answer before anyone has to break it with a question. Flip your questions into story hunters. Not "how are you" but "What's been good?" or "Tell me something good." Slight change, big shift toward optimism. Or check in on something specific from before. "I noticed you dedicated the book to your daughters. How old are they now?" The update question does the work that the generic one can't. Katie Couric never asks "what do you do?" She asks "What do you like to do?" Vanessa found it in Couric's memoir. One-word swaps have major potential. Turn small talk into a treasure hunt. Everyone has gold. You don't know what it is yet. Your job is to ask the questions that find it. Treasure hunting also kills the awkwardness. Vanessa calls herself a recovering awkward person. Her problem for years was that her goal in conversation was to be impressive. No good conversation comes from that. Curiosity has to be innate. Vanessa thinks nearly everything is teachable. Not this. If you aren't actually curious about the person, the techniques will read as manipulative, and eventually you get found out. The rule on using someone's name: if you're already thinking about it, use it. If you're not thinking about it, don't. That's the whole test. Three levels of connection, and you have to go in order. From Dr. Dan McAdams. Level one is general traits: occupation, hometown, family status. Level two is personal concerns: goals, motivations, values, what drives and worries someone. Level three is self-narrative. Put your work relationships in level two. That's the practical instruction. Most people stall at level one and assume level two isn't work-appropriate. It is, and conversations get more engaged, collaborative, and productive once you're there. Level three is about frames, not facts. Two people can have identical facts and completely different stories about what those facts mean. Self-narratives are self-creating. People who see themselves as lucky approach the world as lucky people. They spot more opportunities, think more laterally, and create more surface area for good things. Unlucky people do the same thing in reverse. Narratives are editable. They're not Enneagram or Myers-Briggs. They shift, usually on an annual scale, most often through conversation with someone you trust. Journaling alone rarely does it. The five re-storying questions. Who am I now? Who do I want to be? How do I get from here to there? How do I make change stick? Who can help me? Be a loud liker. A friend asked Vanessa to assess a date named Tim. Her read: meh. Before she could say so, the friend told her Tim had loved her, thought she was fun, and bought all her books. Vanessa's opinion of Tim reversed on the spot. She was embarrassed by how fast. The lesson from Tim: when someone clearly likes you, you feel at ease, you feel more likable, and you like them back. Very few of our impressions of people are fixed. You can't like too loudly if it's authentic. Vanessa's hot take. Gushing is fine. The only failure mode is inauthenticity, or liking so loudly you prevent the conversation from happening. Warmth, then competence. Susan Fiske's research, quoted directly: "Competence without warmth leaves people feeling suspicious." Leading with data and numbers reads like you're hiding something. Warmth is the lubricant that lets people accept your competence. Powerful people get informal fast. BJ, a CEO I hadn't seen in a year, leaned into the camera on a Zoom and said, "This makes me so happy." Straight past the formality. The myth is that power requires sterility. The most powerful people have enough confidence in their status to give likability away. Proxemics: we read physical space as emotional space. Four zones. Public is five to seven feet. Social is four to six. Personal is a foot and a half to three feet. Intimate is under 18 inches. Leaning toward the edge of someone's intimate zone signals that you want to be close, and it works on camera too. Let your body do what it wants when you like someone. It already wants to lean in, make eye contact, get closer. Most of us hold it back. Shared language is the key to our hearts. I give my daughter's friends nicknames. Millie is Mill Dog. Georgia gets "What up, G?" Vanessa calls that an inside joke, and inside jokes create belonging. It also proves you remembered them. Availability is more attractive than attractiveness. In Dr. Monica Moore's bar study, the most attractive women were not approached most. The women who sent the most availability signals were: brief glances, long glances, body angling, smiles. It took roughly 35 signals an hour to get approached. Never ask "been busy lately?" It invites the other person's brain into pessimism, primes them to search for everything they're behind on, and reminds them they should be somewhere else. Then they complain, and listening to complaining is the most exhausting form of conversation there is. Bragging about being busy makes you look less competent. The research is counterintuitive. People think volume signals importance. It reads as someone who doesn't have a handle on things. "Oh, good busy or bad busy?" 90% of the time you get a real story about a project or a goal. The other ten percent opens the door to "What's going on? Can I help?" Either way, you just moved to level two. Two secret doors into level two at work: goals and learning. A goal taps motivation, core values, and future self. Learning activates growth mindset. Test yourself on the five people you work with most. Do you know each one's current work goal and personal goal? Vanessa knows who on her team is training for a marathon and what their KPIs are. Make it a norm, not an occasion. Vanessa's global team opens every weekly call with "tell me something good." One quick win each, personal or professional. It gave wins a place to live that isn't bragging, and it replaced the boring small talk that used to open the call. The nine power questions, for the most important people in your life. Three per level. 1) Working on anything exciting these days? 2) Have any fun plans coming up? 3) What's your personal passion project? 4) What's your biggest goal right now? 5) What have you always wanted to learn? 6) What do you love to talk about? 7) What book, movie, or TV character are you most like and why? 8) How do you feel most misunderstood? 9) What would you do if you weren't afraid? Question four is also a secret to strong marriages. Partners discussing shared dreams is vision casting. It reminds you both where you're going and shapes what you do today. Some marriages live in strategy. Most get trapped in logistics. Question seven is the backdoor to level three. Asking someone their self-narrative directly doesn't work. Asking what character shares their values, choices, and personality gets the richest narrative answers, because it makes them step outside themselves. If you don't like people, treat it like a social gym. The first few reps hurt and you can only do three. And when you're stuck with someone you don't like, the intention becomes: how do I get to know this person enough to find one thing I authentically like? That's a muscle. Go to the gym with a plan. Wandering machine to machine is aimless and exhausting. So is walking into a room with no conversational intention. Vanessa's plan is always the same: discover. Vanessa's champagne moment a year from now: a conversation coach in every company and every school. She thinks the chief conversation officer role is coming. We've moved our small conversations onto Slack, which is transactional, and lost the water cooler. If we want engaged teams and less burnout, someone has to build the safe spaces and the prompts. She has already certified 70 coaches. Reflection Questions Who in your life has clearly told you they like you? Now flip it. Who have you been quietly appreciating without ever saying it out loud? Say it this week. Pick the five people you work with most. Can you name each one's biggest goal right now, at work and at home? If not, that's your next five conversations. Where are you using a conversational technique as a tool instead of out of genuine curiosity? If you enjoyed this episode with Vanessa Van Edwards, watch https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kH_CiklQGKs our first conversation together, Episode #468 - The Secret Language to Charismatic Communication https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kH_CiklQGKs. (Show notes https://learningleader.com/vanessavanedwards/) Episode Chapters 00:00 Apply for the Learning Leader Circle 01:17 Meet Vanessa Van Edwards 02:37 The Small Talk That Kills Your Soul 03:52 The Two Traps of Small Talk 06:11 Awe Is the Best Opener 09:10 Turn Small Talk Into a Treasure Hunt 11:32 Curiosity Can't Be Faked 12:58 The Rule on Using Someone's Name 16:02 The Pressure to Be Impressive 18:34 Three Levels of Connection 21:18 The Five Re-Storying Questions 24:40 Be a Loud Liker 28:11 The Social Gym 29:33 Warmth, Then Competence 33:01 Proxemics Works on Camera 34:40 Nicknames and Shared Language 36:45 Availability Beats Attractiveness 39:18 Never Ask "Been Busy Lately?" 42:37 Two Secret Doors to Level Two 47:07 What Character Are You Most Like? 49:09 The Champagne Question 50:33 EOPC

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Ryan Hawk?

  We have just opened applications for our once per year Learning Leader Circle. I just got a testimonial from, I think, one of the most impressive members in my current circle, Alex Feldmeyer. She is a sensory sciences manager, wickedly smart, but this is what she said about being a part of our Learning Leader Circle. She said, "Our Leadership Circle meetings are experiences that go unmatched with anything else in my life. The biggest part is learning that we have so much within ourselves to catalyze massive potential, but we often don't know how to access it.

• 0:39Ryan Hawk?

  This group is about learning how to unlock it, live it, and most importantly, sustain it. With the carefully crafted discussion points and the intentional people around us, it's like being invited to a machine that gives us the tools to harvest our own superpowers." So cool. If you want to apply to be part of our next Learning Leader Circle, go to learningleaderscircle.com to apply. That is learningleaderscircle.com and apply today. Welcome to the Learning Leader Show presented by Insight Global.

• 1:22Ryan Hawk?

  I am your host, Ryan Hawke. Thank you so much for being here. Go to learningleader.com for show notes of this and all podcast episodes. Go to learningleader.com. Now, onto tonight's featured leader, one of my favorites, Vanessa Van Edwards. "I've spent two decades studying how people connect. Her books Captivate and Cues have been translated into 18 languages and her work reached more than 300 million people just last year. Her new book is called Conversation: How to Connect with Anyone and Make Every Interaction Count." During our conversation, we discuss how to make small talk actually enjoyable. And then, instead of asking, "What do you do?", Vanessa has a far better question to

• 2:07Ryan Hawk?

  ask. Then she shares one question you should never ask. We talk about the nine-hour questions, and Vanessa goes deep on us being genuinely intellectually curious, all about authenticity. It's so good. Ladies and gentlemen, please enjoy my conversation with Vanessa Van Edwards. Vanessa, it is so good to see you. Welcome back to the Learning Leader Show.

• 2:32Speaker 01

  It's so nice to be back with an old friend. I can't wait. I can't wait.

• 2:37Ryan Hawk?

  So, for Sienna and Claire, use this book to find your best friends, have great conversations with interesting people, and to one day connect with an incredible partner. I like this part. And may you never be faced with awkward silences or boring small talk. What a great dedication.

• 2:53Speaker 01

  I was like, my one wish for this book is that we can all stop having the awkward small talk that slowly kills our souls. I don't know about you, but as I get older, my tolerance for shallow niceties has gone down every year. And so, if I can spare them, I literally, when I would get stuck in my writing process or I'd wonder, "Should I keep this or not keep this?", my litmus test was, "Will this help my girls have better conversation? If the answer is yes, great. If the answer is kind of, it went. It got cut."

• 3:25Ryan Hawk?

  I can tell. It's so tight. I told you this before we started recording. It's like no wasted emotion, no fluff, it's right to the point, and nothing beyond what is needed. I think that is great. But I used to say, "I hate small talk. I never want to do it." And then I realized, you know, we all kind of have to do it sometimes. And so, if we kind of have to do it, it's probably worth getting good at it. So, how do you? How do we get better at having small talk and making it actually enjoyable?

• 3:51Speaker 01

  You're right. Small talk is actually required for big talk.

• 3:54Ryan Hawk?

  Yep.

• 3:55Speaker 01

  We can't skip it, but we can do it better. And I also think it's important for my learners, everyone listening to this is a learner. Conversation is a social skill, and there are micro skills underneath conversation. So, conversation is a big social skill. It's almost like if I had to give it a metaphor, it's like history, right? Like, really big skill that you learn in school, and then you'd have all these classes, you'd have, you know, maybe AP Euro or AP US or American history, and then you would dial down to like civics, and then you would dial down even further to like 1800s, then you'd dial down even further to like civil rights movement. It's exactly the same thing in conversation, where conversation is a really big topic. And small talk, I would say, is a chapter, meaning the way that we get better at it

• 4:35Speaker 01

  is we understand it is a skill to be flexed, and here are the traps you're trying to avoid. So, in small talk, you're trapped. The ones that make small talk painful are, one, autopilot. So, you're asking questions but not actually connecting. "Where are you from? What do you do? How are you? How's it going?", where your brain clicks into that autopilot and there's just no actual connection happening. And I think this is the most draining of all. We're talking all the time but not actually connecting. So, trap number one is trying to break script. Trap number two is going for facts, not stories. And this is really hard because we have to actually fight our instinct here. As humans, there's something that I call a hierarchy of facts.

• 5:19Speaker 01

  To be able to connect, we kind of have to know the basic facts about someone. We have to know their general traits. This is level one conversation, their occupation, their hometown, their family status. So, of course, we default to those questions over and over again. But because they're so autopilot, because they're not exciting, we end up kind of Google fact-checking each other. Like, really bad small talk is kind of like reading someone's Wikipedia page. And so, we have to break that by not going for the facts, by going for the stories, and we can double-click on any area, but those are the two traps we're trying to avoid.

• 5:48Ryan Hawk?

  How do you go for stories? Let's say I'm the person who is going to tell a story, just like when I comment on your background and you immediately told me the story behind the background, which is beautiful, right? So, it wasn't a fact, it was a story of how you came to be, and then some cool little elements of it. So, how do we get a story from somebody else? So, we know how, I think, to potentially tell one. How do we get one from somebody?

• 6:11Speaker 01

  Okay, so actually, let's use what exactly just happened for this call, okay? So, we hopped on. You could have said, but you didn't, and neither did I. Thank goodness. Good job, us. "How are you? How's it been going?" We did not do that because the answer always is, "Good, fine, busy", right? Like, it's always the same. Instead, you immediately gave me a moment of awe, and I actually think awe, A-W-E, is the best small talk ingredient. If you can do it authentically, I never want to fake it. The video popped on, and I have a kind of awe-worthy background. You go, "Wow, your background is so cool." So, by the way, I think that's also better than a compliment. Like, it is a compliment, but actually, it's better that you were kind of wowed.

• 6:53Speaker 01

  So, you gave me awe, and awe typically is a story soliciting emotion, right? Positive awe is wow. Negative awe is compassion. And both are good. So, "Wow, that's amazing", or "That's cool", or "That's interesting", or "What is that?" Great. Those are like, "Tell me about that." And then, negative awe, "Is everything okay? Can I help? It seems like something is going wrong." That's compassion awe. Both are story solicitors. And then, I had a choice, because you're going to be faced with boring questions sometimes, to answer. I could have said, "Oh, thank you so much. Yeah, I'm in a new studio." Fact. Dead end. I just put the conversational burden on you to try to pick it back up. But instead, there is a kind of fun, cool story, which is, I'm happy to share, is, I

• 7:38Speaker 01

  asked AI, "What should my background be? I'm Vanessa Van Edwards." And it sucked up to me, and I love a suck-up. I love when AI tells me I'm wonderful. It said, "You should be an angel. You should be a Renaissance angel." And it picked out this ring light, and it picked out all lights for me. So, we were able to then riff on that and stories. So, one is, you're being story-ready. Even if you get, "How are you?", don't say, "Good, busy, fine." You answer with, "Oh, my gosh, today, the craziest thing happened? Today, the weirdest thing happened? Today was such a great day? You know, today was such a horrible day, can I just tell you?" Right? So, I am ready to break the script with my answer. That's the easiest way, because oftentimes, people are going to come at you with social scripts.

• 8:21Speaker 01

  The second way is you flip your answers to be, and this is the nuance, and this is hard. We can't go too deep too fast. I would love to break a social script by saying, "What are your greatest dreams in life?" What are your deepest fears? You know, I, those are okay, but it's too much, right? It's level two. We can talk about level two rotation. So you have to be socially acceptable, socially safe, but flipped. So my flip questions are story hunters. So simply like, everything been good? Or tell me something good or what's been good? It's a very slight change for optimism on how are you? Checking in on something from before, you know, I noticed that you dedicated your book to your daughters. How old are they now? What are they up to? Right?

• 9:05Speaker 01

  So like a slight update change.

• 9:07Ryan Hawk?

  Love that. And I love the phrasing in the book too. You said, turn small talk into a treasure hunt. You said Katie Couric had a good spin on a question, which is a lot of things that he said, hey, what do you do? Right? We get this all the time, all the time. And instead of saying, what do you do? She would ask, what do you like to do? Tell me why that's a much better question.

• 9:27Speaker 01

  I was really grateful. I, I was reading all these memoirs to research the book. I try to read as many memoirs as I can because people often talk about their conversational hacks without realizing it. So I got a lot of conversational hacks through memoirs. Then it's of course, reading the research. What does the research have to say about conversation? But even things sort of related to conversation, psychology, behavioral economics. And in Katie Couric's memoir, she said that she's done thousands and thousands of interviews with very powerful people. And she doesn't let herself ask, what do you do? She says, what do you like to do? And that was an aha moment for me because it realized that we can make single word swaps that have major potential.

• 10:08Speaker 01

  And really a micro skill in conversation is what can I swap here? That is still safe, but is going to light someone up or turn someone on. And in that way, it's a treasure hunt, right? You're searching for those moments, those little light bulb moments, those tiny little swaps where you're in conversation with someone. You're like, okay, I'm looking for their gold. Everyone has gold. Everyone has gold. And we don't know what that is, but it's, it's something, there's a story that someone has or a perspective or advice. It's going to be freaking so interesting. You just have to ask the right questions or share the right stories yourself to be able to find it. And so that mindset, one, it gives you intention to your questions. You're searching for liking, you're searching for excitement, you're searching for compassion, you're searching for awe, both good and bad.

• 10:52Speaker 01

  Treasure hunting isn't always hearts and rainbows. It can be hard too, which is good. But second, it also takes away the awkwardness. You know, I joke that I'm a recovering awkward person. And I think the reason I was so awkward for so many years in conversation is my goal was to be impressive. Like horrible, it sounds so true. But as you know, I was like, I have to, you know, be funny and, and show, impress people. And oh God, no good conversation comes from that. And so shifting to treasure hunting is also less pressure. And it's also going to take you out of your own head for my other awkward folks.

• 11:32Ryan Hawk?

  What you're talking about, I think too, is being very curious. And I love being around curious person. I think I've developed this skill from doing this a lot over the past 11 and a half years. How do you view curiosity? Is that a skill to be developed or is this more of like a natural thing you're born with? What do you think?

• 11:52Speaker 01

  Oh, I think curiosity does have to be innate. I, this is really hard and I, I think almost everything is teachable. I really do. I think almost everything is teachable. But if you're not innately curious about someone, these are going to feel manipulative.

• 12:08Ryan Hawk?

  Yep.

• 12:09Speaker 01

  Just bottom line is there is an assumption that I make in the book, which is that you picked up the book because you are curious about having good conversation. And so if I teach you five likable phrases and I teach you these conversation swaps and these questions, I'm okay with you using them because the intention there is to learn. The intention there is to treasure hunt or discover, or make a connection, or find a soulmate, or ask for your raise. Right? There's all different kinds of romantic, social business. But if you're not curious, it will only last for so long.

• 12:43Ryan Hawk?

  Yeah.

• 12:44Speaker 01

  Some of the techniques might work, but when you're found out, it will not be good.

• 12:50Ryan Hawk?

  Yeah. And nobody wants to be around like the one who's manipulative or isn't authentic. That leads me to another one in sales training. I, I was in sales for 12 years when I came out of college. And one of the teachers would say, you know, use the sweetest word to that other person. And that is their name. And now I have such a, if somebody does it too much and it doesn't feel natural, it's not a good feeling. There was a viral clip on Twitter recently. Okay, you saw it. So.

• 13:19Speaker 01

  Tell everyone you should, I would love to hear your summary of it, Ryan.

• 13:23Ryan Hawk?

  I, you just used my name. It did make me feel good, but it felt natural. Okay. I like it when it feels natural and authentic and real. But I've also felt it when it is obviously used as a tool to make me like them. So Vanessa, how, just tell me, how do you feel about using somebody's first name?

• 13:47Speaker 01

  Well, first of all, that viral clip was really interesting for me to watch that whole thing. And Jefferson's a dear friend of mine. So I was almost like, thank goodness in this book, I didn't tell people to use their.

• 13:55Ryan Hawk?

  I didn't even know who said it. So you know, the person.

• 13:58Speaker 01

  Yes, yes, yes, Jefferson. And he's, and he's so lovely and he's so charismatic and so good intentioned. So I was just like, wow, this clip was taken. I have a whole issue with clip culture.

• 14:09Ryan Hawk?

  Yeah.

• 14:09Speaker 01

  But that's a different issue. So the tip is, and it comes, I think most originally from Dale Carnegie, who said, you know, the sweetest sound is someone's own name. And then there's some research back this up that we like the sound of our own name. So then there's this advice that has been given that you should use someone's name as much as possible because they like it. Now, hot take, if you're good intentioned, like if the only reason you're using their name is to make them feel good, is that manipulative?

• 14:40Speaker 01

  I don't know. If you're trying to sell someone something, okay, that can feel a little manipulative. But if you're like, I just want this person to feel good with me. I just want them to feel at ease. And research says that, you know, that our brain lights up with dopamine or whatever, when we, when we hear a name. Is that so bad? I think everything comes down to intention.

• 15:00Ryan Hawk?

  Yep.

• 15:00Speaker 01

  So to answer your question, if you are already thinking about someone's name, use it. That's authentic. If you are not thinking about their name, don't use it. Right? So I never am like, Ryan, Ryan, got to say it three times in the first 30 seconds.

• 15:17Ryan Hawk?

  I still like it though. I gotta admit, I still like it.

• 15:21Speaker 01

  You're like, I liked it. You're like, I lit up. That was pretty good.

• 15:25Speaker 01

  Also, there's such a thing, it's too much of a good thing.

• 15:27Ryan Hawk?

  Yeah.

• 15:27Speaker 01

  So I think, and the same thing goes with every single self-help tip ever, especially mine. Right? Like I teach body language and conversation. For example, in the book, I talk about nodding. Outside of Bulgaria, India and Pakistan, up and down nod means yes, I'm interested. Tell me more. That's great if it's on purpose and you're actually interested, but it's terrible if you're doing it the entire time, then it's a bobblehead.

• 15:50Ryan Hawk?

  Yeah.

• 15:51Speaker 01

  So I think like the nuance here is important, which is why I had to write a whole book about it. Right? Like there is nuance, like this is a skill. We have to learn it. Yeah.

• 16:02Ryan Hawk?

  So I asked the same question to James Clear about habits. And that is, do you feel this pressure to be like a perfect conversationalist now?

• 16:13Speaker 01

  I always felt that pressure.

• 16:16Ryan Hawk?

  Always.

• 16:17Speaker 01

  Always. Yeah. So I always felt like if I was in conversation with someone, and this is as young as I can remember. I mean, even like 15, 16, I wanted it to be great. If I was having a conversation with someone, whether it was my teacher or a friend or a professor, I always was like, this has to be worth it. Now, I don't know if that's because I'm a time maximizer. I'm very much into like, every moment should count. I mean, literally the subtitle of the book is make every interaction count. And that could be good or bad. So I always had that pressure. In fact, having the book, it's been less pressure because now at least I can talk about the pressure. Me, that's just, I don't know. Do you don't feel that way, Ryan? That, that every conversation should be good?

• 17:00Ryan Hawk?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. But is it exhausting? Do you just go home and say, oh, can I just not have to be on right now? Like, how is that?

• 17:07Speaker 01

  No, I was far more exhausted before. I find it exhausting to be in a conversation and not have an aim to be like, huh, we're here. What do we talk about? I don't know what to say. What do you say? Am I coming across okay? I'm social overthinking. Oh my gosh, that period of my life of, that was right as this research was ramping up. So my kind of career aha moment was around 2021. And those first few years of my twenties were just painful and that was exhausting. I don't know if you guys, you go to networking event and your intention is to meet people. And you're talking for three hours with bad appetizers and you leave and feel totally drained because not one conversation was good.

• 17:50Speaker 01

  That to me is far more exhausting. Now I have a plan, right? Like now I can be relaxed in conversation because I know my intention is to discover. Like that's a very easy, it's not about being impressive. Oh gosh, it's so exhausting to try to be impressive. All it is is to discover. And then how fun, how joyous it is to climb the ladder, right? Like if I'm with someone and we are hitting it off, I was having a conversation last week and I had low expectations. I did not know her and we started chatting and I was like, oh my gosh, we are vibing. Like this is fun. And we were like, and we blew through level one, like dun dun dun dun. And then we were in level two and I was like, I think we could get to level three together right now. I mean, it was a rush. It was like a rush. So no, I think it's quite joyous.

• 18:33Ryan Hawk?

  Good. Okay. You tease the levels. Can we get a high level of each level?

• 18:37Speaker 01

  Yeah, of course. So this is research by Dr. Dan McAdams, who studied intimacy in conversation. So how do we feel connected to people? And I had heard, you know, build rapport. I heard that phrase for so long and I was like, what does that mean? What does building rapport actually mean? So he said, like, what does it mean to have trust, connection, rapport with someone? And he found that there are three levels that humans have to pass through. And we have to do these chronologically. We have to start with level one, move through level two. And level three is not for everyone. You don't have to go to level two and level three with people if you don't want to. So level one is general traits. So occupation, hometown, family status, the basic facts about someone. But again, we can do those facts better. Level two is personal concerns, goals, motivations, values, personality traits, what drives someone, what worries someone.

• 19:22Speaker 01

  That's where most, most conversations, interactions live. I encourage people in the book to have all of their work relationships in level two. They should really try to push past level one. You have much more engaged, collaborative, productive conversations if you know level two about someone. And it still works safe, which is the misconception about level two. And level three is your self narrative, the story you tell yourself about yourself. This is not about facts, it's about frames. Meaning someone could have the basic facts of their life, but it's how they interpret those facts. It's basically how they answer the question, what forces have shaped who you are today? And if you know someone's self narrative, especially in relationship, but also at work, you can predict behavior.

• 20:07Speaker 01

  Because typically, what research has found is self narratives are self creating. So if someone sees themselves as lucky, they actually approach the world as a lucky person. And they see more opportunities. They are more creative, they're more lateral thinking, they're actually creating more surface area for opportunity. Whereas unlucky people, that is also self creating. They see the world differently. They hunt differently. They have different perspective. And so they end up creating their own bad luck. And so knowing the self narratives can help you be an incredible supporter of people in your life.

• 20:43Ryan Hawk?

  One of my favorite phrases, Vanessa, that my wife Miranda told me, leading up to our wedding. It was supposed to rain on our wedding day. She said, you know what? With our luck, it's going to be a bright, beautiful, sunny day for all of our guests. And we now repeat that phrase with our luck, followed by something that is very positive and nice and pleasant. It's just a part of our family ethos that we say it all the time. It is so enjoyable to be around a person who thinks that way, who lives that way, who thinks they're lucky. I wonder, do you help people think and see the world as a luckier person? Or is that also something that's innate in people?

• 21:26Speaker 01

  Okay. So I think the deepest goal of conversation is helping someone to rewrite their self narrative. Okay. So narratives are not like personality traits. They're not like Enneagram or Myers-Briggs. They're not like that. They're editable. And we are regularly changing our story. Not always, but oftentimes, for example, someone could, I've seen people change their narrative the moment they become parents. Or I've seen someone change their narrative after a string of bad luck. So our narratives are changeable, not on a daily basis, probably on an annual basis.

• 22:03Speaker 01

  And I think the only way, the best way to rewrite our narrative, to change our narrative is through conversation. It is very hard to do it on your own through journaling, but it is possible through people that you trust. Or even like I've seen people change their narratives after like the Hoffman process or like very deep group coaching work. That's called self authorship. And that's actually an interpersonal skill. You know, the, my book mostly focuses on interpersonal people skills. But the very end, I dip, I dip my toe into the interpersonal bucket. I don't usually do that because I'm not, I don't feel trained. But there is really good research on self authorship, which is that you feel you're the narrator of your own life.

• 22:48Speaker 01

  That you feel you're the main character in your movie. And not everyone does. This shocked me because I do feel like I'm the author of my own life. I'm also an author, so that helps. But I was really saddened to learn that a lot of people don't. And that was like, wow, okay, well then that's a goal, right? Now, it's very tricky to help someone rewrite their narrative because they're usually very ingrained. And remember, it's not really about the facts, it's about the frames. So I give in the book, five restoring questions. Those are not mine. I'm actually, I'm happy to share them with your audience so you don't have to wait for it. So these are based in the research, these are not my questions, but these are questions that they've found.

• 23:32Speaker 01

  If you can ask someone these questions in a trusting setting with a lot of back and forth, right? You can't just rapid fire them. You can help someone try to think about being the author of their own life. So one, who am I now? Two, who do I want to be? Three, how do I get from here to there? Four, how do I make change stick? Five, who can help me? That is a restoring framework that you can use, but proceed with, with caution.

• 24:04Ryan Hawk?

  Do you suggest doing that with friends, small group of trusted advisors, by yourself first? What's the best way to actually do that?

• 24:11Speaker 01

  Any way, as long as there is permission. Meaning it could be a long date night, as long as someone knows that they're opting into it. It could be a leadership retreat with your team. I've seen work teams do this together to re-story after like a lot of difficult change in a company. Or if someone was let go, you can re-story on a team. As long as there's permission there that people know that that's what you're trying to do, right? You want to make sure that you're transparent about it and they're opting into it. I think any way works.

• 24:40Ryan Hawk?

  Okay, there's a million things I want to get to. Uh, it's so good. How to create a magnetic presence? This was a cool part. Okay, we're talking about a Dr. Monica Moore study, but also two different parts of this. One of your friends asked you to go out to dinner with a candidate, you called him Tim. I don't think that's his real name.

• 24:59Speaker 01

  No.

• 24:59Ryan Hawk?

  And when you went out to dinner, because he was like, tell me what you think. And you go, oh yeah, he's, he's fine. He's, he's whatever, he's whatever. But afterwards, something different happened based on what Tim said. Tell me that story.

• 25:10Speaker 01

  Oh, this was so embarrassing because I, I was embarrassed with myself, which is, yeah, I was sort of meh about Tim. A lot of my friends will ask me to go out to dinner and like kind of analyze the person that they're with, which I decided not to do anymore because it gets me into trouble. Really gets me into trouble. And so, uh, you know, Tim was meh. I was like, yeah, yeah, that's okay. No green flags or red flags. And then before I can answer what I thought of Tim, she's like, you know what? Tim loved you. Tim had so much fun with you. He thought you were fun and he bought all your books. And I was like, what? And in my mind, I literally was like, you know, Tim was pretty great, wasn't he? I was like, what is going on? Like how?

• 25:51Speaker 01

  And the more she told me that Tim liked me, the more I was like, that Tim guy, pretty great, pretty great taste. And the more supportive he was of me, the more I was like, I underestimated him. He is wonderful. And it was like this moment for myself where I was like, wow, it just shows you the power of liking. I didn't know if Tim liked me or didn't like me. But when he was a loud liker, he clearly told me, I like you. All of a sudden I felt at ease and it rewrote the story for him. And it made me realize that there are very few hard and fast rules with people.

• 26:28Speaker 01

  Like our impressions of people can change quite a lot based on what we know, based on conversation, based on behavior. And so this is this idea that the similarity attraction effect, that when we are similar to someone, we're attracted to them. But also when they are loud likers, it makes us feel at ease, which makes us feel more likable and it makes you like them more.

• 26:51Ryan Hawk?

  Can you overdo it though? Cause we've, you've probably felt this now that you're more famous. Do people ever overdo it and you get a little ick? Like, ah, calm down dude. Like, do you get some of that ever? You have to.

• 27:03Speaker 01

  Only if it's inauthentic. If someone is gushing and over the top and it's authentic, wonderful. If they're loud liking and I don't feel it's authentic, terrible. So I actually, again, a hot take, I don't think you can like too loudly.

• 27:21Speaker 01

  If it's authentic.

• 27:22Ryan Hawk?

  If it's authentic.

• 27:22Speaker 01

  If it's authentic, I don't even, I don't think you can ask too many questions. If they're authentic, you can ask them too fast. You can ask them in an interrupting way. Like, you don't want to be such a loud liker that you're actually preventing conversation from happening. But if you're gushing and it's authentic, I don't think that that's a bad thing.

• 27:38Ryan Hawk?

  Yeah, the cool thing about what you've said now multiple times to some of these questions are, it's really all about being a genuine person, showing up with genuine curiosity, showing up with genuine feelings of positivity about somebody else. Like, showing up genuinely liking somebody is a lot better than just trying to like, ah, like if it's inauthentic, that's the part where we just can't go for it.

• 28:02Speaker 01

  And that's the exhausting part. This is a mindset shift. If you don't like people, right, like, that's the thing. I have a, I have a little chapter about this. If, you know, if you're not easily around people, if you don't like people, this is going to be like going to the social gym. And I think we actually have to think of it that way. You know, the first time, if you haven't been to the gym in a long time, when you go back, those first few pushups, they are painful. You can only do three. It is really hard. And you know what? It's kind of the same thing. We are flexing a very different way of interacting. Yes, positive, but really curious and also purposeful. Again, when you go to the gym and you have no plan and you're like, I guess I'll like go on this machine for a minute.

• 28:46Speaker 01

  I'll do one arm and maybe I'll, I guess I'll do some calves. You're kind of aimless, you don't get much done, it's exhausting. But when you're like, here is the plan, my social reps, I'm going to practice being really good at asking for and sharing stories on level one. That's all I'm going to practice right now. Like, I'm just going to try to be really intentional about that. There's this person in my life who I don't like that much. The old subtitle of the book was how to be instantly likable. And I changed it because I realized that sometimes you have to have conversations with people you don't like. Sometimes you have to have conversations and you don't like people, yet they can still count. If you don't like that person, your intention is, how could I get to know this person enough? Where there is something, anything that I authentically like about them, that's a muscle. I mean, that, that's going to take some reps, but it is so worth it.

• 29:31Speaker 01

  So worth it.

• 29:33Ryan Hawk?

  Speaking of like the first impression or even the, the initial few seconds of when you connect or reconnect with somebody, whether it's in person or on Zoom, this happened to me a few weeks ago. A friend of mine named BJ Shaknawski is a CEO of a company called Couchbase. He's doing big things. We worked together a long, long time ago and he hired me to speak to his old company like five years ago. And now he wants me to come back. So he goes, he texts me, he goes, hey, let's connect on a Zoom and let's talk through it. And this is the part I want to focus on is like the connecting part, because I think this could help for any leader. We connect on Zoom and I haven't seen him in a year. And he moves closer to the camera and he goes, hey, this makes me so happy. And it was the most genuine feeling of like, yes, this is, and, and we just went straight into it like we were,

• 30:17Ryan Hawk?

  you know, like right into the rhythm because he's a guy not afraid to give a compliment. He's a big, powerful person. Loud liker, this makes me so happy, man. So good to see, like, you know, like one of these, and it was so just genuine. I don't know, like, I'm thinking, well, he's this big time CEO at a new company. Maybe we're going to be formal, is it going to be weird? I don't know. And it was like so informal so fast. And I think that's something that powerful, likable, charismatic people do is they get informal fast. And I'm just, there has to be some science there. What, what do you think about that?

• 30:53Speaker 01

  Yes, okay, so I'm, thank you for sharing that story because there's a myth, a very pervasive myth, that to be powerful, you can't be warm.

• 31:01Ryan Hawk?

  Yeah.

• 31:02Speaker 01

  To be powerful, you can't be a loud liker. But actually, it's the opposite. The most powerful people have so much confidence in their own status that they can be loud likers and they are gifting likability around them, right? Like Oprah, like liking for you, liking for you, liking for you. And the informality is also key here. Is this is another myth, is to be taken seriously, I have to be sterile. I have to be formal. Informal is going to make me look less competent. Oh, no, no. Very competent people are comfortable. And comfortable means informal.

• 31:41Speaker 01

  So what he did there, and this is also based on the research, is that warmth than competence is the magic combination. Competence without warmth leaves people feeling suspicious. And that is quoted directly from the research by Dr. Susan Fisk. Competence without warmth leaves us feeling suspicious. Why? The curse of very smart people is they focus a lot on their competence, their ideas, their book smarts, their numbers, their data. He wanted to get into it with you on that Zoom call. But if he had just popped on and been like, well, last quarter, we had really low numbers and I want to bring you in. Right? You're like, what?

• 32:21Speaker 01

  Like, it actually feels like you're hiding something when you just have competence or jump too quickly into competence. Warmth is a lubricant. It is a social lubricant. Warmth helps us feel safe enough to accept your competence. And so really, really charismatic leaders, and this is what I've spent the last 20 years studying, master conversationalists and very charismatic people of all levels. Sometimes they're not leaders. Sometimes they're not in leadership positions, but they're very charismatic and they're known for it. Is they assume friendship.

• 32:54Ryan Hawk?

  Yep.

• 32:54Speaker 01

  Doesn't matter what role they're in. They assume friendship by being informal, by being a loud liker. Also, non-verbally, you said he got really close. That's called proxemics. So proxemics is the space between people and it also works on camera, which is crazy. In Western societies, we like, there's, well, actually, in all societies, there's four space zones. There's the public zone, which is about five to seven feet from someone. There's the social zone, which is four to six feet. And then there's the personal zone, which is a foot and a half to three feet. And then there's the intimate zone, under a foot and a half. 18 inches around there. We like to interact with people in the personal zone. And so if someone leans in like that, he just very got to the very edge of your intimate zone,

• 33:39Speaker 01

  which is a signal of, wow, this person really wants to get close. But we take physical space as a sign of emotional space. And so also that was like an informality and a power gesture in a way of like, I feel so comfortable. I want to get close. I want to get up and close. I want to see you. And so our brain is like, oh, wow, they're confident, they're claiming space and they want to get close to me? And they're giving me eye contact and full fronting? So it had this like very potent combination that works. Now, I bet you, he did not do that in any kind of manipulative way.

• 34:10Ryan Hawk?

  No, no.

• 34:11Speaker 01

  Right.

• 34:11Ryan Hawk?

  It felt as just natural.

• 34:14Speaker 01

  Right, and so if you are in a conversation with someone you like, you can let your body do what it wants. What does the body want to do when it feels confident and warm? It wants to lean in, make eye contact, see closer. It already does all those things naturally, but sometimes I think we hold ourselves back.

• 34:29Ryan Hawk?

  Yeah, or just react how you honestly feel when you see this halo behind you. It's like, that's how I naturally like, oh, that's cool. You know, or get informal fast, I think that's also great. One other thing, this is not at all that I was planning to talk about, but one of the ways I, I want my youngest daughter's friends to feel comfortable when they come over is I've give them nicknames and it may be cheesy, but they seem to like it. So like, Millie is Mill Dog, Georgia, I say, what up, G? You know, like all these random, so, and they always say, what up? You know, and so it creates like a shared language where nobody else calls them those nicknames. You know, and they may like make fun of me behind my back, they probably do. But it feels like it creates comfort by like creating nicknames for everybody. What do you think about that?

• 35:13Speaker 01

  I love, I love shared language.

• 35:15Ryan Hawk?

  Yeah.

• 35:16Speaker 01

  I love shared language. So, um, I have a little chapter called How to Be Cool and it's about inside jokes. And so you are being cool, you're cool dad, right? Like, a nickname that is agreed upon or that they don't mind, even if they tease you, that is an inside joke. And shared language is the key to our hearts, right? Like, if we're like, oh, we have this like inside lingo, this inside shared joke, it immediately makes us feel belonging, right? Because we feel like we're in this in-group and we love to be in an in-group. So it's like, I'm safe here, I'm good. And then also it shows that that person remembers you.

• 35:54Ryan Hawk?

  Yeah.

• 35:55Speaker 01

  Because every time they show up, you remember that specific nickname for them and they remember it too. So it's like this very easy shortcut. I love a shortcut. So maybe I'll start, maybe, what, what nickname should I call my, my daughter's friends? This is a really good, I'm going to ask her. I'll be like, I want to make some nicknames for your friends.

• 36:11Ryan Hawk?

  Whatever naturally comes, I think having a background in sports, as you get closer, everybody goes by nicknames. And sometimes in locker rooms, that could be inappropriate. But like for kids, you could just, whatever comes to mind, I think happens.

• 36:22Speaker 01

  What's your nickname? What was your nickname in high school or college?

• 36:25Ryan Hawk?

  Uh, well, my last name is Hawk. So normally you would just add like an er, Hawk er, Hawk e, random stuff like that. Yeah, there are some ones that are not, not as appropriate, but yeah, that would be, that would be the basic, basic ones.

• 36:38Speaker 01

  You have a cool ass name though, like that, that works. Like Hawk is like a really cool ass name, there's so many variations of that. Oh, I like it, I like it.

• 36:45Ryan Hawk?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay, how about Dr. Monica Moore's study? So who do you think has approached more at a bar, attractive or unattractive women? Tell me this study.

• 36:55Speaker 01

  So I'm asked this a lot, especially when I was talking more about body language. My last book is about body language. I was asked a lot, you know, to be approached, you just have to be really attractive. And attractiveness is important. But actually, what is attractive is surprising. What is attractive is availability. We like people who are available. We also like people who are loud likers, right? So people who are very clear with their liking. There's a little bit of an exception here with the cool girl. That's its own exception, but in a,

• 37:21Ryan Hawk?

  You mean like where, where a dude feels like it's a chase?

• 37:23Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 37:24Ryan Hawk?

  Yeah.

• 37:24Speaker 01

  And it's like, that's a little bit of an exception. But in this study, what Monica Moore did is she put a bunch of singles into like a, a bar-like setting. And she looked at who approached who. And she found that the most attractive women, and this is with heterosexual students, the most attractive women were actually not approached the most. It was the women who sent the most signals of availability. Signals of availability were brief glances, angling their body, long glances, smiles. And it took a lot, by the way, it took a lot to get a man to approach her. It took about, I think it was 35 signals per hour, which is a lot.

• 37:59Ryan Hawk?

  Were they drinking?

• 38:01Speaker 01

  I don't,

• 38:02Ryan Hawk?

  Probably not.

• 38:02Speaker 01

  I would guess not. There's no way the IRB approved them drinking. There's just no, I'm going to go on a limb and say, no.

• 38:10Ryan Hawk?

  Okay. I was gonna say, if they were, then they probably, it wouldn't take 35, I'm guessing.

• 38:14Speaker 01

  Probably not, that's probably true. Lubricates you a little bit faster.

• 38:18Ryan Hawk?

  Yeah.

• 38:18Speaker 01

  Why I share this study is because, one, it also takes the pressure off of being perfectly attractive, right? Like, being available is very attractive, especially if you're looking for love. I also think this works with friendship too, in a certain sense. Like, if you're at a party trying to like make friends with people, like I'm meeting a lot of other parents and I'm trying to make friends with other parents with kids my same age, right? It's just so much easier. And like, you're also kind of scoping out who's available, who's going to be able to hang out. So it's the same thing, I think, this is not just romance of like, who is going to make time for me? Who is going to give me attention? And I hate saying that, but we do want that. Who's off their phone? Who's making eye contact? And then we like that because when we get eye contact, we get a burst of oxytocin. And oxytocin does a lot of things in our body, but for social purposes, it makes us feel connected.

• 39:04Speaker 01

  It makes us feel accepted. And so if someone is glancing at us 35 times an hour, we're getting that oxytocin. We're like, I feel good. I feel connected. I feel belonging. I like me. I like this person. And so it's also, there's a chemical play also happening.

• 39:18Ryan Hawk?

  There is a question, though, that you should never, ever ask. And that is, been busy lately? Why is been busy lately? Such a horrible question to ask.

• 39:30Speaker 01

  If there's one thing that happens from this book, and it's that people stop asking that question, I will feel like it's a success.

• 39:37Speaker 01

  So, one, been busy lately is literally inviting the other person's brain into pessimism.

• 39:44Ryan Hawk?

  Negative priming.

• 39:45Speaker 01

  Yeah. You're asking their brain to search for all the examples of being busy. Because if you ask someone, been busy, their brain is going to go, busy, busy, busy, busy, busy. And most people are going to say, yeah, I guess they have been busy, even if they weren't thinking about it before, which reminds them that they shouldn't be talking to you. They should be going doing all the things that they are busy with. So, one, it's like immediate negative priming. It sets you up for conversational traps. They're going to start complaining, right? And like, it's very, very hard to have. You can have actually good conversation around like shared pests, like venting about something that that actually can be very productive conversation. But listening to someone complain is the most boring, horrible, exhausting way to have conversation. So you're actually setting yourself up for an exhausting setup, small talk. But then second, and more importantly, I think,

• 40:28Speaker 01

  is the research shows that bragging about how busy you are makes you seem less competent. And this is a kind of counterintuitive. People often think if I talk about how many things I'm doing and how busy I am, it's going to make me seem really important. But actually, it's perceived as this person doesn't have a handle on things. Right? If they're bragging about how important they are, how busy they are, they're probably not that important. And so it also sets you up and them up for a bad impression.

• 40:55Ryan Hawk?

  Well, you often, maybe this is because I've asked a poor question, but if you ask something about how somebody's doing, how's business or whatever, they'll say, man, so busy.

• 41:04Speaker 01

  Busy.

• 41:05Ryan Hawk?

  So busy.

• 41:05Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 41:06Ryan Hawk?

  I think it's a terrible answer. I've never said it and I never will because I agree. I think busy is not aspirational. It's the opposite of what I'm trying to do. I want to have high impact, really cool, interesting conversations with people like Vanessa Van Edwards. Like, that's what I'm trying to do. That's not busy. That's preparing, doing it, learning from it, you know, shipping it. So when somebody asks about that, what's a better way to answer than, oh, I've been busy? Been, been busy.

• 41:31Speaker 01

  I have a hack, I have a hack. Okay, so, one, you're not going to ask it. But if someone answers been busy, you can ask, oh, good busy? Exciting busy? This works so well. I do it all the time because people often answer with, with some kind of busy. Oh, good busy, exciting busy? And almost always, almost always, 90% of the time, they're like, yeah, actually, you know, there's this really cool project that I just got put on, or I had this interview coming up that I really like, or, you know, we're at the end of our quarter and like all these goals are coming in. 90%, it's like, you've just reshaped it and you're probably going to get a story. 10% of people are like, no. Bad busy. Well, that's an opportunity. Oh, my gosh, tell me. Tell me, is there anything I can do? Tell me, what's going on? Can we brainstorm? Can I help?

• 42:17Speaker 01

  Then you just leveled two, right? You've literally taken that bad thing, ask them for more of a story as opposed to just a high level, I'm overwhelmed, I'm busy, I'm stressed, to what's going on? I deeply care. I deeply want to listen. What's happening? Can I help you? So that hack, the response is like, it's beautiful.

• 42:37Ryan Hawk?

  You mentioned level one and level two again. And so we want to get to level two, especially with our work relationships. What are some other tools, tactics, ways that we can naturally, again, authentically, go from level one conversations to level two conversations?

• 42:54Speaker 01

  My favorite, my favorite. And this is actually the reason I wrote the book, is I had kind of figured out how to do well in level one. And my first book, Captivate, I talk a lot about level one conversation. I don't name it that, but I figured that out. And then I got kind of stuck. I could not figure out how to flip up into level two. And so this is the fundamental question. And there's two kind of secret doors into level two, especially at work. Goals and learning. So, goals are actually not really level one. They're more level two because a goal is going to tap into motivation. It's going to tap into core values. It could even tap into like future self, sometimes even productivity.

• 43:36Speaker 01

  So, goals and making goals a conversational norm on your team and in your workplace is going to level up your team. It's going to flip up your team. I do a ton of sales trainings. You know, I do sales trainings and corporate trainings. And this is the way that we do it at work, which is, you should know, in a little test for yourself, everyone on your team or the five people you work with most, do you know their current goal right now? Do you know their work goal and their personal goal? It's actually very helpful if you can know both. So on my team, I know who on my team is training for a marathon and I also know what their KPIs are. Right? I know on my team who's going through a hard time with their kids and also what their quarterly performance goals are.

• 44:18Speaker 01

  And that language is now, we bring that into our weekly team calls. So that's already a norm in our team calls. So on our team calls, I have a global team. So we're all over the world. On our team calls, we start every team call with tell me something good. So very quick level ones, right? Like, just like warming us up. We used to have like, very boring small talk at the beginning of our calls and it drove me crazy. And so I was like, we're starting with tell me something good. The whole team goes around and shares really one quick good thing. If they've achieved a goal, they share it. So it's in our norm culture that sharing a win, either personally or professionally, there's a space for it that is not bragging, that is actually celebratory. In the book, I give nine power questions, nine questions that you should ask to the most important people in your life. What is your biggest goal? Or what is your goal right now? Is question number four. It's, there's three per level, right?

• 45:03Speaker 01

  Three for level one, three for level two. So number four is the first question of level two. So making that a norm. And then the fifth question is, what are you learning right now? Now, it's hard to ask that specific question. It's a little bit odd of a question, but it can come up when you're talking about goals or how do I achieve this goal? Or what am I working on? Or how am I going to get there? Or I'm not sure how to get there. Talking about learning also activates growth mindset and it's a really great thing to talk about in the team is, what is everyone working on? What is the thing that they're learning at work and also at home?

• 45:36Ryan Hawk?

  I like too that number four, what's your biggest goal right now, is, is actually a secret to a strong marriage too. Partners discussing their shared dreams. There's some science behind this, right? That leads to stronger marriages, correct?

• 45:48Speaker 01

  Yes. So I, I thank you for pulling out that study and I should have mentioned it earlier. So thank you for bringing it up. Is, yeah, when we are with our partner and we are vision casting together, that is what goals are, is you're vision casting a shared future. It is a foundation of strong marriage because, one, it reminds you of where you want to go. So you're on the same path, right? Like getting to that goal. You have a shared vision cast of something that you're both dreaming about. And then also, it affects your current day to day of like, are we working on that goal right now? And so that shared future is such a great thing to remind your partner of on a daily basis or even on dates or even on the car or with a vision board. Reminding each other of that shared goal is going to help strengthen that foundation. My husband and I are both strategists,

• 46:33Speaker 01

  so I almost took that for granted. When I read that study, I was like, duh. But then I was, I started teaching it and people were like, oh, interesting. You know, I haven't asked my husband about his goals. And I'm like, that's all we talk about. So it depends on your, it depends on your marriage. Like some, there's some marriages that are very like strategy focused where all you're talking about is vision casting. And there are some marriages where we can get very trapped in logistics. Right? You're talking about the kids, you're talking about school. So this is a really great way to do it.

• 46:58Ryan Hawk?

  So I love the nine power questions. I encourage, well, they're in the book and you can look at the show notes.

• 47:03Speaker 01

  Ryan, are you going to do it with your wife?

• 47:05Ryan Hawk?

  Of course, but I'm going to ask all of these. I want to hit on one of them that you said you wish it wasn't one of them. That's number seven. What book, movie? Or I'm going to add this to my questions because I do cards at dinners that I host. We always do cards with questions. And I'm going to add this one. What book, movie or TV character are you most like and why? I don't know the answer. I was thinking of it as I was preparing for this one.

• 47:27Speaker 01

  We have to do it. We have, you have, you have to come up with one. Wait, so can I explain it while you think? While you think about it? You also can ask AI if you want to. So this is, I don't recommend a lot of AI in the book, but this is one area.

• 47:36Ryan Hawk?

  I'm going to do that while you're answering. It's the only time I'm not going to be paying 100% attention.

• 47:39Speaker 01

  Okay, I'm going to teach everyone while Ryan looks this up. So AI is actually quite helpful. It's, level three is about self narrative. Believe me, I have tried to ask people, what's your self narrative? Very hard. It's very hard to identify your own narrative. So I've had to come up with questions that kind of are backdoor. It sounds so silly. Like, I was like, really? Like, this is the one. But it unlocked the most narrative answers, the most rich narrative answers because it makes you take a step outside of yourself. Now, it's not the book, movie or TV character that's most, that looks like you. It's an internal. So what book, movie or TV character might make similar life choices, has similar core values, has similar personality traits to you? And one thing you can do, I give a prompt in the book, it's something like, Ryan, I don't know if you have it, but it's like, I am a, you know, you could describe your descriptors.

• 48:24Speaker 01

  I value, my personality is, I like, I dislike, what book, movie or TV character sounds most like this? And AI will pull a whole list for you and it's really helpful. Okay, what did you get? Did you get yours yet?

• 48:39Ryan Hawk?

  This is Claude. I'd say Dr. Watson from the Sherlock Holmes story.

• 48:44Speaker 01

  Wow.

• 48:44Ryan Hawk?

  His job is to be useful. Show up curious, ask the question the reader is thinking, take good notes and turn someone else's messy brilliance into something others can follow. Pretty good.

• 48:57Speaker 01

  Whoa, that's so good, Watson. Should I call you Watson? Is that going to be my new nickname? Or do you resonate with that?

• 49:04Ryan Hawk?

  I mean, I kind of dig it.

• 49:06Speaker 01

  Oh, my God.

• 49:06Ryan Hawk?

  I'm with it.

• 49:07Speaker 01

  Watson Hawk. Here we go. That's it.

• 49:09Ryan Hawk?

  Hey, I know you gotta run. I'm gonna get one more question. And this is another one that you may already ask, but I think you're friends with Jason Gaynor, too. This comes from him.

• 49:15Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 49:16Ryan Hawk?

  Champagne question. It's one year from now. You're surrounded by all of the people you love. You're popping bottles, celebrating like crazy, Vanessa. What are you celebrating?

• 49:26Speaker 01

  A conversation coach in every company and school.

• 49:29Ryan Hawk?

  Ooh.

• 49:31Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 49:31Ryan Hawk?

  A conversation coach in every company or school.

• 49:34Speaker 01

  I think CCO, Chief Conversation Officer, is coming, or Chief Community Officer. We're losing our small conversations at work, right? Where there's no more water cooler, or we're all about the task. We're all, we're conversing all on Slack, which is very transactional. And so I think if we want to have connected, engaged teams in companies, if we want to have less burnout, we're actually going to have to create safe spaces for conversation, but also prompts for conversation for people. And that's going to need to be either a coach within the company or a role in the company. So I created a, as I was writing the book, I have a certification. We have 70 coaches already.

• 50:10Ryan Hawk?

  Incredible.

• 50:10Speaker 01

  A lot of them are in companies, like they're internal to their companies, or they're private. And I, if I could get this into every school and to every company, it would be like a dream come true.

• 50:19Ryan Hawk?

  Love it. The book's called Conversation: How to Connect with Anyone and Make Every Interaction Count. Vanessa, you're the best. We're going to continue our dialogue as we both progress. This was so great. Thank you so much.

• 50:28Speaker 01

  Thank you so much.

• 50:33Ryan Hawk?

  It is the end of the Podcast Club. Thank you for being a member of the End of the Podcast Club. If you are, send me a note, [email protected]. Let me know what you learned from this great conversation with Vanessa Van Edwards. A few takeaways from my notes. Be a loud liker. If you enjoy someone, let them know. Tell them you like the conversation or follow up with a note about something they said. People tend to like those who clearly like them. And most of us, we hold back far more than we realize. And then get used to asking the nine power questions. We hit a few of them, but I'll share all nine right now. Number one, working on anything exciting these days? Number two, have any fun plans coming up?

• 51:17Ryan Hawk?

  Number three, what's your personal passion project? Number four, what's your biggest goal right now? Which is also the secret to strong marriages, partners discussing their shared dreams. Really good idea. And then number five, what have you always wanted to learn? Number six, what do you love to talk about? Number seven, what book, movie, or TV character are you most like and why? That was fun to talk about. Number eight, how do you feel most misunderstood? Number nine, what would you do if you weren't afraid? Get used to asking those nine power questions. And then, I mean, this whole conversation was focused on being a genuinely curious person. None of this stuff works if you're

• 51:59Ryan Hawk?

  using it as a tool to manipulate people. However, if you are genuinely curious about people and want to have deep conversations with them, then this stuff will really, really help. It's all about authenticity. Once again, I want to say thank you so much for continuing to spread the message and telling a friend or two, hey, you should listen to this episode of the Learning Leader Show with Vanessa Van Edwards. I think she'll help you become a more effective leader because you continue to do that. And you also go to Apple Podcasts, Spotify, subscribe to the show, rate it, hopefully five stars, write a thoughtful review. By doing all of that, you are giving me the opportunity to do what I love on a daily basis. And for that, I will forever be grateful. Thank you so, so much. Talk to you soon. Can't wait.