497 | The Sacrifices

The Minimalists talk about the right amount of deprivation, sacrificing for others, obsession with books, education that aligns with minimalist principles, and more. Discussed in this episode: How much should I deprive myself for the sake of loving others? (2:05) When does it make sense to stop sacrificing for another person? (16:38) Right Here, Right Now: Peek inside Joshua's minimalist home. (35:38) Listener tip: Coming to terms with body-image insecurities that you can't control. (42:26) Listen to the full Maximal episode on Patreon: patreon.com/theminimalists http://patreon.com/theminimalists Detailed show notes: minimalists.com/podcast http://minimalists.com/podcast Recorded at Earthing Studios http://earthing.com/simple.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:20Speaker 00

  Every little thing you think that you need. Every little thing you think that you need. Every little thing that's just feeding your greed. Oh, I bet that you'd be fine without it.

• 0:39Joshua Fields Millburn?

  Hello, everybody. Welcome to the Minimalist Podcast, where we discuss what it means to live a meaningful life with less. My name is Joshua Fields Milburn. Joining me here at Earthing Studios in West Hollywood, California, is my good friend, TK Coleman. Hey, hey, hey. Coming up on this free, public minimal episode, a caller has a question about depriving himself and the service of others. And then we've got a question about when it's appropriate to stop sacrificing for another person. That's followed by our Right Here, Right Now segment and a listener tip. Also, on page three, we'll be talking about nine things that make your home look messy, even when it's not. You can check out the maximal edition of episode 497.

• 1:20Joshua Fields Millburn?

  That's the full two-hour episode, where we answer three times as many questions on Patreon. The link is in the description. When you subscribe, you can listen to our private podcast episodes on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or your favorite podcast app. Plus, you'll gain access to all of our podcast archives, all the way back to the very first episode. That's a full decade of archives. By the way, big thanks to our patrons. Your support keeps our podcast 100% advertisement-free, because, sing along at home, y'all. Advertisements suck. Let's start with our callers. If you have a question or comment for our show, give us a call.

• 1:57Joshua Fields Millburn?

  406-219-7839 is the phone number, or you can email a voice recording to [email protected]. Our first question today is from Darwin.

• 2:09Speaker 02

  I am Darwin, a Patreon subscriber from the Philippines. This question might be related to setting boundaries, but I'm curious about your thoughts on a person who willingly sacrifices their own personal pleasure for the sake of others. How do we determine what constitutes too much or too little deprivation for the sake of loving others? Thank you for everything that you do. Really love your books and podcasts that has helped me cultivate a deeper understanding of myself and my life.

• 2:38Joshua Fields Millburn?

  TK, this is the definition of a thoughtful question. I want to love other people, but also I don't want to harm myself. And he talked about boundaries there for a moment, which made me ask the question of myself. Like, what is the purpose of a boundary? And I guess I would say that a boundary is a sort of resolution in a way. Or it sets up a resolution, and a boundary without a resolution is a type of barricade. And so when I think about a boundary, it's so that I can have some sort of resolution in my life. I can resolve something maybe even before it happens. That's why we create boundaries. Any insights on that?

• 3:17Speaker 03

  I want you to clarify what you mean by resolution. Can you give me an example? Do you mean like a sense of purpose or what exactly you mean?

• 3:23Joshua Fields Millburn?

  It can be that. The question is like, what is my outcome here? And how do I, how do I get toward that outcome? That's what I mean by resolution.

• 3:31Speaker 03

  I got you. Yeah, I think that makes perfect sense, and that's in keeping with how I see it as well. You know, when it comes to love, there is an element of love that does involve the sacrificing of our personal inconvenience and our personal discomfort. And I think we all know that, but the challenge is there are certain moments where we might have a reason to ask ourselves, am I going too far? Am I not sacrificing myself enough? Or am I sacrificing myself too much? The first thing I say about this topic is that there are some forms of knowledge that are best discovered through experience and experimentation. And it's important that we de-scandalize questions like this by not assuming

• 4:14Speaker 03

  that if we can't intellectualize our way to an easy answer or Early on that something is wrong. You know, how do you know what flavor of ice cream tastes good to you? How do you know what foods you're allergic to? How do you know what size shoe is best for you? Well, you've got to try something on. You've got to taste it. You've got to get a feel for it. And so sometimes you can think that you have a good routine for looking out for your family and taking care of yourself. But sometimes things break down and that's an opportunity for you to tinker with it and say, well, let me pull back here a little bit more. Let me exert myself there a little bit more and see how that works. And, and, and I think the, the, the way you kind of figure out if you're moving in the right direction

• 4:56Speaker 03

  is you ask yourself, what is the long-term goal beyond just the, the short-term sacrifice? Because I can inconvenience myself for you now, but that might not even be good for what you and I are trying to, to create together in the long-term. In the long-term, it might be best for me to let you work out a difficulty on your own and not inconvenience myself by helping you. So you got to take both of those things into account.

• 5:20Joshua Fields Millburn?

  And that's what I mean by resolution. Where are we going to together? Because if I'm just sacrificing, in fact, on the bottom of page one here, I'm going to talk more about sacrifice and compromise, because I used to think both of those were a bit overrated, but I've changed my mind about sacrifice and compromise. So I do want to circle back to that. But when I'm talking about sacrificing without any sort of resolution, if it's just you're sort of, you, you're sort of self-flagellating, is that the, the term? Where you're, you're, you're harming yourself because it seems virtuous in order to sacrifice. The sacrifice towards something is kind of what we're talking about here.

• 5:58Speaker 03

  Yeah, that's exactly right.

• 6:00Joshua Fields Millburn?

  And that brings us back to the heart of the question here. How much should I deprive myself? He uses that word deprive and we're talking about deprivation. And when I talk about minimalism, people often mistake it for deprivation or deprivationism, as though it's an ideology of asceticism, living without and even causing yourself some pain in order to prove that you can go through it. Now, I'm a minimalist, I'm not a deprivationist, although I do find that it is sometimes. Great for me to temporarily deprive myself, to remove something from my life. It could be something as simple as an object, a material good, to question whether or not it actually adds value. In The Minimalist Rulebook, it's 16 Rules for Living with Less,

• 6:43Joshua Fields Millburn?

  which people can download for free on our website at theminimalists.com. One of those rules is the no junk rule. And the purpose of that rule really is to contextualize the things that you own. Everything you own, we just did an Instagram video about this recently in my house, and I was showing that everything you own, and everything that I own, can fit in one of three piles. It's either essential, it is non-essential but value adding, or it is junk. Where we get into trouble is when we take the junk that is there, the junk being the things that get in the way. It's junk to me, it may not be junk to you. But the things that get in the way, the clutter that gets in the way, and we say it's essential.

• 7:25Joshua Fields Millburn?

  And when I say it's essential, okay, let me prove that to myself. If I remove it for a week, for 10 days, for a month, what's gonna happen? This was, this is how we started the whole minimalism thing, when Nicodemus was doing the packing party, and he boxed up everything he owned as if he were moving. And he had these huge boxes stacked halfway to his 12-foot ceiling in his second living room. And we're staring at all these things, and he's like, man, all these things I thought were essential, I can't even remember what's in most of these boxes. And so he was temporarily depriving himself of that. Not saying I must throw all this out, put it in a dumpster, get rid of it immediately,

• 8:07Joshua Fields Millburn?

  but questioning, does this actually add value to my life? And I think the same thing can be said for depriving yourself of things outside of the physical world, and of sacrifice in general.

• 8:19Speaker 03

  That's right. I think it's important to keep in mind that just because some sacrifice might be necessary, it doesn't necessarily mean that your first idea of how to sacrifice is the right one. Sometimes there's room to negotiate when we sacrifice and how we sacrifice to solve a problem. So maybe you have a long day at work and you're tired, and as you're driving home, you think, I just wanna walk into my home and go straight to bed. And you walk in and your teenage son is on the couch, and he's kind of sad, and you go, what's wrong? And he talks to you about some problem that he's having with his girlfriend at school. And you know that you need to listen to him and talk with him and that's the right thing to do, but that's going to require you to stay up an extra 30 minutes to an

• 9:03Speaker 03

  hour where you don't want to do it. Sometimes the right thing to do is to push yourself a little bit and be there. But sometimes by asking a few questions and seeing where he's at, you might discover that you've got room to say something like, I'll tell you what, try to get some sleep and ease your mind for the night. And tomorrow in the afternoon, when I get that break, you and I will take a little walk together and I want to hear all about it. And I want to make sure I can take the time to kind of go over it with you and see how we can respond to it. Sometimes that is an option. And just by doing a little bit of listening, a little bit observing, you might be able to find a healthier way to sacrifice. Just because you're making a good sacrifice, doesn't mean you're making that sacrifice in a healthy way.

• 9:43Joshua Fields Millburn?

  This happened to me this morning. I was jamming out here in the studio to one of my favorite albums. It's called The Hives by a guy named Mike. And it's a really good album. I'm jamming out and Savvy D comes in and Savvy D is like usually a super chipper, but he had some unfortunate personal news that had to do with a friend of his. And I could tell like, oh, wow. At first I thought maybe he injured himself skateboarding and, but he was limping in here sort of mentally. Like he had this heavy weight on his shoulders. And a moment of sacrifice, then it's sacrificing my momentary pleasure so that I could listen to someone I really care about, right?

• 10:18Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 10:19Joshua Fields Millburn?

  And it doesn't even feel like a sacrifice after the fact. So in the moment, sometimes it feels like, oh, man, I was kind of, no, no, I want to be there for the person I love. Which actually brings me to this excerpt of something I wrote in our last book, Love People Use Things. There's, it's about these seven essential relationships in our lives. And one of those is our relationship with ourself. And we're talking about sacrificing or compromise, or we're talking about selfishness, or giving, or serving others. Then we're often talking about what is my relationship with myself and how does that affect other people? In this section here, this is from page 141, it's called selfishness, self-improvement, self-giving, and serving.

• 11:00Joshua Fields Millburn?

  I'm intrigued by the word "conosis", which is derived from the Greek word that means "to empty out". Historically, "conosis" refers to the ethic of sacrifice. We experience profound meaning by being subservient to others. In today's terms, I think of "conosis" as "self-giving". We feel most alive when we empty ourselves out in the service of other people. Yes, minimalism often involves an emptying out of our homes, removing the excess to make room for others. To empty ourselves, however, we must first possess something worth pouring out. There's a reason those safety pamphlets instruct you to secure your oxygen mask first.

• 11:43Joshua Fields Millburn?

  If it's easier to breathe, it's easier to help people in need. Oh, you can tweet that, Savvy D. This is why caring for the self is so important. It's not selfish to act in your own self-interest. Rather, self-improvement is the most effective way to contribute to others. Selfishness occurs when someone feeds their own pleasure at the expense of others through dishonesty, contempt, manipulation. Self-improvement, on the other hand, involves caring so much about others that you're willing to improve yourself. You're willing to be a steward of your own well-being so that you can have enough resources to give.

• 12:26Joshua Fields Millburn?

  Thus, in a roundabout way, it's selfish not to take care of yourself because you'll never have enough to give if you don't first care for your own well-being. Now, contribution shouldn't be confused with "saving" people. A servant is not a savior. A servant is someone who understands that when the world is a better place for others, it's a better place for the servant, too. The great mystery of contribution is that by giving yourself to others... You get more, not more stuff, but more meaning and purpose and joy. You're not only helping them, you're helping yourself.

• 13:08Joshua Fields Millburn?

  When done with care, giving and self-improvement are self-fertilizing mechanisms. The more you give, the more you grow. The more you grow, the more you have to give. In tandem, these attributes provide a sturdy foundation for a great life. But greatness isn't measured by ephemera. No one cares how much money Abraham Lincoln had in the bank when he gave the Gettysburg Address, or how much land Seneca owned when he wrote on the shortness of life, or how many Instagram followers Harriet Tubman had during her 13 missions to rescue enslaved people. Greatness is measured by our ability to positively influence the world around us.

• 13:52Joshua Fields Millburn?

  And to do so, we must first care for the self, because we can't give what we don't have.

• 14:01Speaker 03

  That is so good, and it underscores one of the most important distinctions, which is the negotiables versus the non-negotiables. The negotiables are the things that you can sacrifice and recover from. The non-negotiables are the things that are necessary for you to keep in place, for you even to have the capacity to demonstrate your love for someone, whether it's sacrificial or not. And if you find yourself sacrificing in a way and to a degree that is leaving you so gassed out and burned out that you have nothing left to give people, then that's a sign that something needs to change. Maybe a different type of sacrifice or a different type of boundary.

• 14:45Speaker 03

  It's like saying, "I want to be an investor and I want to use money to help people." Well, you can give it all away in one felt swoop and you've got nothing left to give. And if that's how you want to play the game, you can do that as a one-time thing. But if you want to give for the rest of your life, you've got to find a balance between making your money work for you so that you can always be generating a source. Of abundance that you can then use to share and engaging in the act of sharing. Those two things are not in conflict. They mutually support one another.

• 15:15Joshua Fields Millburn?

  And it's harmful to be so generous that it harms you or prevents you from being generous in the future, which actually brings me to, I have a lot more to talk about with respect to to sacrifice, but I'd love to send Darwin a copy of Love People Use Things. It's the book that I just read from there. It's the minimalist most recent book. So if you want the ebook or the book book or the audiobook, we'd be happy to send that over to Darwin. Now, before we get back to our callers TK, it is time for the lightning round. This is where we answer Patreon community chats question of the week and we attempt to answer questions with a short shareable minimal maxim. You can find this episode's maxims in the show notes over at theminimalists.com and every

• 15:55Joshua Fields Millburn?

  minimal maxim ever at minimalmaxims.com. We'll also deliver our weekly show notes directly to your inbox, including seven new maxims every Monday for free. If you sign up for our email newsletter at theminimalists.com. We'll never send you spam or junk or advertisements, but we will start your week off with a dose of simplicity. Speaking of advertisements on page three this week, I might have the grossest ad yet during our sucky ads.

• 16:20Speaker 03

  Wow.

• 16:20Joshua Fields Millburn?

  Segment. I, this one, it gave me goosebumps, but not in a good way. In the way that was like, ugh, ugh, get this away from me. I don't, get this out of my ears. How can I unhear?

• 16:32Speaker 03

  Wow.

• 16:32Joshua Fields Millburn?

  This advertisement. Anyway, we'll get back to that on page three, but right now let's talk about the question of the week. This week's question of the week is, when does it make sense to stop sacrificing for another person? Now, before we get to our pithy answers, let's hear what some of our listeners had to say to this question. When does it make sense to stop sacrificing for another person? Shannon said, it makes sense to stop sacrificing when your core values or your wellbeing are compromised. If sacrificing for someone means going against your values, compromising your mental or physical health, or losing your sense of self, that is a red flag. A healthy relationship shouldn't require you to

• 17:17Joshua Fields Millburn?

  Minish yourself. I completely agree with Shannon here. And in fact, that leads me to my pithy answer, which is without clear values, a kind-hearted sacrifice oxidizes into bland placation.

• 17:32Speaker 03

  Ooh, bars. How long you work on that one?

• 17:35Joshua Fields Millburn?

  I went for a walk for that one, man. And, and I was looking for the right verb there. Oxidizes, right? And so like, I think it's true. If you have clear values, then you know where the boundary upon which you are willing to sacrifice. I'm willing to go up against this. I'm not willing to go beyond this because I know that it's harmful for me. There's only one way to know what your values are. That's the problem. We start sacrificing beyond our values, right? So download the values worksheet if you haven't already, Shannon, over at theminimalists.com/v. There's also a great essay you can read over there about understanding your values. It's a free worksheet. You can download it and you can identify all the different types of values in your life. There's four main types of values, foundational values, structural

• 18:19Joshua Fields Millburn?

  values, surface values, and those dangerous imaginary values, which brings me to this other little excerpt I have here in Love People Use Things that I wanted to read to you because it is about sacrifice and compromise. There's a section in the Relationship with People chapter where I talk about a bunch of virtues that are overrated, like jealousy and sentimentality and pleasure and righteousness and agreeability and comfort. And I talk about why, I don't think they're bad, but a lot of these things that we prize so much, maybe we, we hold them up a little bit too high. We put them on too high of a pedestal. And there were two in here that I actually had, I took out. It was originally

• 19:01Joshua Fields Millburn?

  15 overrated virtues, but I started writing about it. And this is the thing I love about writing. It's one of the things I, I teach my writing students as well is one of the reasons I write is it helps me better understand or put it in context, what I believe. And then that if I, if I can understand it better, then I can live it better as well. And so this section is called on sacrifice and compromise. There are two other virtues I used to think were overrated, but I've changed my mind about both, sacrifice and compromise. After a series of toxic relationships with bosses, coworkers, so-called friends, significant others, and even family members. I reasoned that I had sacrificed too much and had made too many compromises,

• 19:44Joshua Fields Millburn?

  and that's what made those relationships untenable. Well, that may be partially true. The problem wasn't that I had sacrificed or compromised for those people. It was that I had foolishly sacrificed and compromised throughout each relationship. Sadly, I sacrificed my values in an effort to make relationships work. As a result, I made silly compromises to appease others. I avoided the truth because I didn't want to hurt people's feelings. I tried to pacify people with material possessions instead of showing them real love. I forsook my own mental, emotional, and physical health to take care of others.

• 20:26Joshua Fields Millburn?

  But appeasing others does not work, at least not beyond the moment. Think about it. How would you feel if you suddenly discovered that everyone you know was trying to merely conciliate you with kindness? In medicine, doctors refer to this type of treatment as palliative care, which means to make the disease or its symptoms less severe or unpleasant without removing the cause. In relationships, however, we call it placating. These types of sacrifices and compromise are disingenuous at best, relationship ending at worst. Yet occasionally, you must sacrifice and you must compromise

• 21:09Joshua Fields Millburn?

  because the world was not created only to gratify your desires. Your life isn't only about you. Fundamentally, a certain level of sacrifice, that is, giving up something important or valued for someone else, is necessary for a relationship to work. Relationships take time and energy and attention, three of our most precious resources, which we must be willing to part with in exchange for the relationship itself. Compromise, that is, to settle a dispute by mutual concession, is also necessary within a working relationship because no two humans have identical preferences you are bound to have to meet in the middle at some point.

• 21:54Joshua Fields Millburn?

  The key then is to avoid sacrificing your values on your way to the meeting point.

• 22:01Joshua Fields Millburn?

  Parenting is the perfect illustration of the need for sacrifice and compromise. I see this in my own life. On the surface, parenting is burdensome, tedious, and boring. But thoughtful parents are willing to sacrifice their own busyness, excitement, and interests for the sake of their child. It is this compromise, this meeting in the middle, that improves the well-being of all parties. Naturally, this lesson extends beyond parenting. Think of the best relationships in your life. When has it made sense to give up something valuable to improve the relationship? That's sacrifice. When have you had to settle a dispute by mutual concession? That's compromise.

• 22:45Joshua Fields Millburn?

  If you were able to do both and your values remained unscathed in the process, then there's a solid chance you made a high-quality decision for the relationship.

• 22:55Speaker 03

  Woo, that's fire, man. That's so good.

• 22:59Joshua Fields Millburn?

  Well, we have another comment here. This one is from Eliza. It makes sense to stop sacrificing when love runs out. TK, does love ever run out?

• 23:10Speaker 03

  I don't think it does, but I think the conduit through which love flows is capable of getting clogged up or having an issue with the broken pipes or something along those lines. So it's like in your home, you turn on the faucet, you've got water flowing through it. But there are things that can happen that can cause those pipes to not allow the water to flow through. In a similar way, I see love as pure, love as infinite, love as beginningless and endless and always there, always available. But our hearts can be closed to it. We can be filled with bitterness, or we can just be really tired. We can be too self-obsessed. We can be too focused on other people's flaws. And we can get in the way of love and render ourselves incapable

• 23:53Speaker 03

  of allowing it to flow through us out towards another person, which is why when we do inner work to deal with our own angst and our own issues, we find ourselves having an easier time to love. We don't bring love into existence when we do that, but we become a better conduit.

• 24:07Joshua Fields Millburn?

  Yeah, think about when someone says, "Oh, we're just not in love anymore." And it's like, oh, I was never in love. Love is in me. But I love this that you can also block it as well. It might, my neighborhood might not run out of water, right? But maybe my faucet stops working and now I don't have access to that water that is right there. And I think the same thing can be said for love. When I think of love, I think of it's seeing someone for who they are without trying to change them or manipulate them. But sometimes that's really difficult. Sometimes it feels like that love has run out because I'm like, no, I want to change this person. I need to prove myself right. And in that moment, it feels like the, I don't have access to that love.

• 24:46Speaker 03

  Yeah, that's right. And, and sometimes when, when we feel like the love has run out, it, it means that the magic that you and I experienced in our relational dynamic has changed and it's become something else. But love is still available. It just might mean that you and I need to do the work of getting some healing, or we need to redirect our energies elsewhere and learn to love each other in a different way, even if from afar.

• 25:11Joshua Fields Millburn?

  I can't wait to hear your answer to this question. I'm sure it's gonna be great. One more here from Rachel. She said, I stop sacrificing whenever it is clear that the other party is unwilling to help themselves. Oof. At that point, support should be withdrawn until motivation resumes. Now, I agree with Rachel here. It's, it's difficult to, to help an arsonist maintain a campfire. And we talked about that, maybe it was a week or two ago. And man, it's like, imagine you're going camping with an arsonist and they're just trying to burn down the whole forest and you're like trying to just keep this, this campfire going. And for some reason, there's this quote, and it's often attributed to Voltaire. It, Rachel's comment reminded me of this. It's, the beatings will continue

• 25:56Joshua Fields Millburn?

  until morale improves. Now, I don't know exactly why this, this stood out to me, but like, there is this moment where, yeah, I totally get the, the, I can't keep sacrificing you, or maybe for, for you, let's set aside sacrifice for a second. You can't help a person who doesn't want to be helped, right? If you go to a person who's kicking and screaming in the pool and you try to save them, you might end up drowning yourself.

• 26:25Speaker 03

  Yeah, that's right. And I want to nuance it a little bit and say, it is always possible to help a person who doesn't want to be helped. But in order to discover what the right mode of helping is, you have to be willing to let go of your own expectations for their performance.

• 26:39Joshua Fields Millburn?

  Yes.

• 26:40Speaker 03

  If I've got a buddy who needs a job, and I go to bat for him, like, hey, man, I filled out the application for you. Hey, man, I put in a good word for you. Hey, man, I set up the interview for you. Just make sure you're there at 2:15. You can find parking here. Hey, man, I did this for you. Hey, man, I met a work. And this person is just all casual. They're lax a day's ago. They don't, they don't really care about it. That can lead to a lot of bitterness and frustration. And now, you're not helping them, and you're hurting yourself in the process. That doesn't mean you need to abandon that friend and say, screw you. If you don't care about a job, I don't care about you. If you don't care about the particular way that I'm trying to help you, then I don't care about your well being at all. We don't want to go to that extreme. But what we can say is like, all right, they are not being responsive to this manner of helping. I'm going to help

• 27:23Speaker 03

  in the following way. Instead of doing all that work and burning myself out, I'm just going to bring up every once in a while, a question, how's the job hunt going? And I will help them in the form of letting them know, very informally, if you ever need anything with respect to that, don't hesitate to let me know. And I'm still available to them. I'm not coming off as calloused and cold and resentful. And if they come to me, I can help them. So I'm still available, but I'm just not taking the driver's seat anymore.

• 27:50Joshua Fields Millburn?

  And you can even give them a level of specificity as well. If you ever need help with your resume, or if you need help with a job interview prep, I'm happy to help out with those things. Here are another, here are seven other things that I can help you with. But I'm not going to force that sort of help on to you. As I've said before, there's no one more dangerous than the helper. And when I'm talking about the helper, I'm the person, I'm going to help you no matter what. It reminds me of this boss I have, my favorite boss of all time. His name is Jim Har back in Kentucky. And he, he was like a Kentucky Zen poet, I swear, the way that he never answered a question with an answer. It was always with some sort of Jim Har Cohen. And, but there was one time where he talked about

• 28:35Joshua Fields Millburn?

  Um, it well, he was saying, we're going to be successful, but do you think I'm going to drag you kicking and screaming to that success?

• 28:42Speaker 03

  Hmm.

• 28:43Joshua Fields Millburn?

  It's like, oh, no, I also need to be willing to help myself along the way. How about you listeners? When does it make sense to stop sacrificing for another person? Let me know your thoughts. Let us know your thoughts in the Patreon community chat, which by the way, you can join for free, even if you don't subscribe to the private podcast. We'd love for you to join us over there. You're going to miss out on all the juicy stuff on Patreon if you don't, but that's okay. Give me something pithy TK. When does it make sense for you to stop sacrificing for another person?

• 29:15Speaker 03

  Sacrifice ends where self betrayal begins. I think of self betrayal along the lines of lying to yourself and cheating yourself. So just because you endure inconvenience in order to help another person, that's not self betrayal. That's pushing yourself in a healthy way. But self betrayal is when you start to use helping other people as an excuse for doing what is right. And sometimes it's easier to hide behind hard work than it is to just do the right thing. Because who can blame me for being a martyr? Who can blame me for being tired, exhausted, never having time, always giving myself over to other people? But sometimes the right thing to do is to say no. The right thing to do is to go do that thing where you have to help the person you know

• 30:00Speaker 03

  really needs you, rather than choose to be the person that's busy all the time. So if you're sacrificing and serving in a way that's causing you to lie to yourself, lie to others, and deny the things you know to be true about what the truth demands of you, then you're you're in a swimming in a sea of self betrayal and it's time to reconsider the boundaries and values that you have.

• 30:18Joshua Fields Millburn?

  When does sacrifice become a problem as it gets so tied up in your identity that you become a martyr?

• 30:25Speaker 03

  Yeah, there's a certain good feeling that can come from that pain of like, "Yeah, I don't really have any time today to do any of the things I wanted to do because I'm helping this person, I'm doing this for them, and yeah, I'm just, you know, nothing would survive without me." And sometimes there are phases where that is true. Sometimes there are phases where that sincerely feels true. Not everybody who speaks like that is being a self-inflicted martyr, but sometimes we can use that kind of busyness and that kind of exhaustion as a way of not allowing ourselves to see what we're really made of. Seth Godin talks about this with the creative process, you know, once you decide to just write that book, or make that film, or compose that song, now you're gonna

• 31:07Speaker 03

  know the truth. But if you stay away from it and hide in busyness, you can always tell yourself, "You got what it takes, you just don't have time."

• 31:14Joshua Fields Millburn?

  Yeah, yeah, that's a different kind of excuse because it makes you feel like it's a valid excuse, but even the best excuse is still an excuse. And it makes me think about, sometimes grief is a great part of the process of letting go, and it's a necessary part of letting go. But then when we hold on to that grief, it can become a type of self-pity. And I think the same thing can be true with sacrifice. It can become the banner that says, "Woe is me." And also it says, "This is who I am, look how important I am. And if I let go of this level of sacrifice, then well, I'd lose my membership. I'd no longer be a card-carrying member of the good person club, and I need to be perceived

• 31:58Joshua Fields Millburn?

  as good. And so I'll continue to sacrifice, even if it hurts me, or even if it hurts the people around me."

• 32:04Speaker 03

  Yeah, and sometimes that could just happen from being stuck on a narrative. You're just on autopilot, and that's the only story you know how to tell yourself. And you need to learn something new, or open up to a different perspective, or be challenged by a good friend who can help you see you've got more possibilities.

• 32:18Joshua Fields Millburn?

  So good. So I want to talk about one last thing here, and that is about sacrificing convenience. And I bring it back to our material possessions, but quite often the problem with clutter, physical clutter specifically, is we get things out of convenience. We buy something here, or someone sent me this message on Patreon just this past week, and it said, it was a quote, it said, "Why do we always buy new clothes when we travel new places? They've never even seen our old clothes." And I think about travel, sometimes it's easier to buy certain things just out of convenience. It's easier to do things out of convenience. We're addicted to convenience in many ways. And sometimes that convenience becomes a distraction. I think about my phone.

• 33:01Joshua Fields Millburn?

  It's the most convenient thing in my life. Simultaneously, it is the most distracting thing in my life. And it's not even social media. Even when we did the whole year off social media last year. In fact, we're getting ready to do a TEDx talk in Fargo, North Dakota about this. Spending a year off of social media and the lessons we learned from that. And it was still distracting, the device was. Because it wasn't a year without my phone. That'd be another interesting experiment. But I still had the conveniences of the phone. I had the GPS, I had text messages, I had phone calls. I had ways to look things up right away. I had the dictionary app so I could find the thesaurus and find words that were synonyms for this word, right?

• 33:46Joshua Fields Millburn?

  And then now, of course, you have ChatGPT or Claude or all these AI things that we have. And it makes our lives convenient. And yet, that convenience, we have to sacrifice sometimes if we want to live a life of meaning and purpose. I think about the entryway rule in my own home. We did this video on Instagram recently. And I just took people into my home and showed them how I use the entryway rule in my home. Because one of the ways that, well, one of the conveniences I had that followed me around is the phone would follow me into the bathroom. Or it'd follow me into the bedroom. Or it'd follow me onto the porch, or it'd follow me into the living room or the kitchen. And there's nothing inherently wrong with any of those things.

• 34:27Joshua Fields Millburn?

  But I found that it was distracting me from being present with my family or even just being present with myself. And so the entryway rule, originally Cal Newport called this the four-year rule. I don't have a fancy enough house to have a four-year. So I have a small entryway. I put my phone there. I treat it like a corded phone so that when I'm in my house, I'm actually there. When I'm present in my house, I'm present. I'm sacrificing a little bit of convenience. And to me, that's one of the best sacrifices. Convenience is great until it starts to get in the way. And then it becomes a type of clutter.

• 35:00Speaker 03

  Yeah, and we have these little opportunities sometimes where we don't have time, or we don't have money, and we've just got to make things work with the few minutes that we have, when we'd rather have an hour or a few days, or we've just got to make things work without access to resources at that time with whatever we have. And we discovered during those moments that we have such a wellspring of creativity when we have to use it. But the hard part is remembering to tap into that when we do have an abundance of options, when we do have money to solve the problem, when we do have time to pursue our ideals.

• 35:33Joshua Fields Millburn?

  That's almost the end of page one, y'all. We still have an entire switchboard of colors to talk to, but first, real quick, for right here, right now, here are three things that are going on in the life of the minimalist. In fact, I have a fourth one, but I'm going to save it for page three. I'll tease it right now, though. The first one is, you can take a look at my minimalist home in Ojai, California. We just did a short video on Instagram. It's also on TikTok and Facebook and YouTube Shorts as well. And so we did this minimalist tour, and it was comparing my home to what people often think of as a minimalist home. And so we took this extreme minimalist who's living in Japan, whose house I really like, and I admire him a lot for what he does, but my house doesn't really look like his

• 36:15Joshua Fields Millburn?

  house. I own way more things than this extreme minimalist. So if you want to see a video tour of my home, my family home there in Ojai, warts and all, you can find that over on the minimalist Instagram right now. We'll put a link to it in the show notes. Also, we took a trip up to my home recently because I went to Goodwill and I bought a bunch of items. I had a couple of George Foreman grills. We had an Ice Spice Chia Pet, which my wife is actually now growing. I'll give you all an update on that later. And we bought a bunch of things from the Goodwill, umbrellas and spatulas. And we started outlining some of the minimalist rules that are in the minimalist rulebook and some other rules that I've come up with since then, like the swipe left rule and a bunch of other minimalist

• 36:58Joshua Fields Millburn?

  rules that help us keep our homes clutter-free. And so you can find all of those videos on the minimalist social media. We're just @theminimist on all of those platforms. We'll put a link to our Instagram in. The show notes, also, a new month is here. A new month starts tomorrow, in fact. It is July, which means it's time to play the 30-day minimalism game. In July, you get 31 days to play it. So you get a bonus day of letting go. You can learn how to play and you can download the free calendar we have over at theminimalists.com/game. It makes decluttering a lot more fun because, for me, decluttering is kind of boring. But if you partner up with someone you care about, someone you love, someone you like to play with, let's have some fun together. And decluttering, you don't have to do it by yourself.

• 37:43Joshua Fields Millburn?

  You can let go together and you can turn it into a game. You can embody that spirit of play as you are letting go. Theminimalists.com/game to download the free calendar and share your photos online as well. You can use our hashtag, which is there. You'll see tens of thousands of people have let go of millions of items playing this game. And one more thing for you. I teach a writing class once or twice a year, and I think I'm only doing it one time this year. I haven't done it yet this year. And it's been nearly a year since I've done it. It's called "How to Write Better." It's going to open up in August. If you want to be notified when that opens up, you can download my free ebook. It's called "15 Ways to Write Better." I'll put you on the email list there. I think Sean was looking at it the other day.

• 38:25Joshua Fields Millburn?

  84,000 people on that list are all interested in taking the class. We limit the class to 100 people, but if you can't take the class, then that's okay. You can still download "15 Ways to Write Better." And you can read it within half an hour, and you'll have 15 ways to improve your writing today. And then when the class does open up in August, we'll notify you. Just get you one email, so don't worry about spam or junk or anything like that. We'll just notify you when the next "How to Write Better" opens up. All right, much more is coming up. But first, oh, but actually, you know what? One teaser for you, TK. You did an amazing podcast with Steve Patterson. I love Steve Patterson. I've never met him, but I can thank him for introducing me to you. He has a podcast called "Patterson in Pursuit."

• 39:09Joshua Fields Millburn?

  And you and he have done a bunch of conversations together years and years ago, is how I first discovered you. I just like the way he thinks. I like the way that you challenge each other. I like the curiosity. I like the Spirit of play. I like that both of you show up in a non judgmental way. And we don't talk about your faith or religion a lot. It's not that we're scared of talking about those things, but I don't talk about smoothie bowls a lot on this podcast either. I really like smoothie bowls. It's just not necessarily applicable. Now, if someone calls in and asks a question about smoothie bowls, and now we're going to get a bunch. I will give you my acai recipe, which is top secret. You might have to join Patreon for that one. But you had this great conversation. I think it was five or six hours. It was split into two parts.

• 39:50Joshua Fields Millburn?

  Now, I've only listened to the first part, and there was this amazing cliffhanger at the end of the first one. I won't ruin it. It was so good. We'll put a link to that episode in the show notes over at the minimalists.com/podcast. Patterson in Pursuit is the podcast, and Steve Patterson and TK, they had this great conversation about Catholicism and faith and atheism and all of these other things. So if you want to learn more about TK and his thoughts on that, you can check that out.

• 40:18Speaker 03

  One quick thing about Steve and the discussion that I love so much is we've talked about a number of different things. So this is just one of many topics that we talk about, but he truly loves ideas. He truly loves seeking after clarity. And he truly loves getting to the bottom of things, and that shines through. And I think in some ways, how he has discussions is a model that many of us should strive to follow. He's not making any assumptions about other people's intentions. He's not approaching anything antagonistically. And he feels no pressure to make you agree with him or to make himself agree with you. And he feels no pressure to save himself or anyone else from the tension that comes from wrestling with things and admitting that you don't know,

• 41:01Speaker 03

  or even admitting that you're wrong. And when you look at a lot of debates, especially over tense issues like politics or religion or other social issues, it can be so hard for people to talk with someone who disagrees with them and just set aside the fact, or just acknowledge the fact that they don't know this individual's intentions. And I'm talking with someone who sees the world differently than me, and I can engage them with charity without mocking them, without making fun of them, without being disgusted. Or appalled and to just say, well, what do you think about this? What do you mean by that? What do you think about this? Well, I disagree with that and here's why. And Steve is just brilliant at that. And his conversations with me, he's so good at that that I can't help but laugh.

• 41:43Speaker 03

  And part of that laughter is joy, but it's also just being pleasantly surprised. There was one point where he says to me, I disagree with you. I mean, I agree with you in practice, but I disagree with you in theory. And I just laughed. I says, I've heard the opposite so many times, but this is truly the first time in my life I've heard someone say, I disagree with you in theory.

• 42:05Joshua Fields Millburn?

  I enjoy it because I would call it like an experiential philosophy podcast. It's not just pie in the sky philosophy and theories. Yes, there'll be some theorizing that's going on, but it's also Patterson in pursuit in the sense that like, he's trying to figure out the best way to have a well-lived life. And what does that mean for him?

• 42:24Speaker 03

  Yeah, exactly.

• 42:25Joshua Fields Millburn?

  All right, much more coming up. But first here's a quick minimalist insight from one of our listeners.

• 42:30Speaker 04

  Hi, minimalists. This is Rebecca, currently based in Southern Utah. And I wanted to comment on Autumn's question in episode 491. As somebody who has struggled with anorexic behaviors,

• 42:49Speaker 04

  body image issues and exercise bulimia. Her question really resonated with me. And I've also struggled with some, you know, autoimmune type stuff as well. And had to come to terms with the fact that there might be some things about my body that I might never be able to really change or control.

• 43:17Speaker 04

  And no matter how much effort I really put into it.

• 43:24Speaker 04

  I also get that this can feel very isolating when you see yourself in the mirror or a camera and just feel unsatisfied, feel like you don't want to be in a social setting ever again. But I might recommend finding a support group, finding people that struggle with a similar thing. I personally attend and host an EDA meeting, Eating Disorders Anonymous, and it's based on the 12 steps, like the AA program. There are a few differences,

• 44:04Speaker 04

  such as we focus on balance versus like how many days you go without participating in eating disorder behaviors. But we also focus on like milestones. So like recognizing when you've done something that encourages your recovery or encourages a lifestyle change that helps you see yourself as you are in a new light. If you'd like to check this out, you can go to eatingdisordersanonymous.org. They have plenty of online meetings, but you can also see if you have an in-person meeting in your city or town. Thank you,

• 44:47Speaker 04

  Minimalists, for all you do, and thank you, Autumn, for bringing this up.

• 44:52Joshua Fields Millburn?

  Rebecca, thank you so much for that loving and thoughtful comment. I do agree that, cardiff, and it takes a community to help us get through those things. They're not going to drag you kicking and screaming to success, but they might be there to help you. You pass the baton to them, and they pass the baton to you. And also, you may show up in a place where you get to serve others, once you get to the other side of what you're on. So Rebecca, thank you so much for that. Shout out to Utah, by the way, my, one of my favorite states in the Union. We've done so many tour stops in Salt Lake City and Provo, and I think maybe we did one in St. George at one point. I know my car broke down in St. George. Love that place. Hope to get back to Utah soon. For anyone else who has a listener tip or insight about this episode, you can send a voice

• 45:36Joshua Fields Millburn?

  memo to [email protected] so we can feature your voice on the show. Up next, page two and page three. But first, let's take a quick pandiculation break. We'll be right back.

• 45:51Joshua Fields Millburn?

  All right, that's the first 34% of episode 497. We'll see you on Patreon for the full maximal edition, which includes answers to a bunch more questions. Questions like, "How do I let go of my obsession with books and keep only the ones I love?" "What type of education best aligns with minimalist principles?" "What feelings arise when you start living without superfluous material possessions?" Plus a million more questions and simple living segments over on the Minimalist's Private Podcast on Patreon. And that is our minimal episode for today. A big thanks to Earthing Studios for the recording space, on behalf of Ryan Nicodemus, TK Coleman, post-production Peter, Spire Jeff, Inspire Dave, Professor Sean on the

• 46:33Joshua Fields Millburn?

  couch, Savvy D on the board, and the rest of our team. I'm Joshua Fields Milburn. If you leave here with just one message, let it be this: Love people and use things, because the opposite never works. Thanks for listening, y'all. We'll see you next time.

• 46:49Speaker 03

  Peace.

• 46:51Speaker 00

  Every little thing you think that you need. Every little thing you think that you need. Every little thing that's just feeding your greed. Oh, I bet that you'd be fine without it.