225: Am I Too Late To Find Love? With Tamsen Fadal

This one is about feeling behind. The belief that you missed your window, that everyone else got the memo, that whatever you want is off the table now because of your age. We are answering the questions you keep sending in: how to date after divorce without carrying the last relationship into the next one, how to stop treating the apps like a second job, whether age gaps actually work and where they stop working, and how to make the kids decision when everyone has an opinion about it except you. We also get into why so many of us stay in relationships that are hurting us and call it love, what it actually takes to rebuild after a divorce or a breakup that flattened you, and why perimenopause is a conversation you should be having in your 30s instead of finding out at 47. Tamsen Fadal, journalist and author of How to Menopause, joins me for it. Nobody is behind. You are just on your own timeline. Come see me on tour! https://sabrinazohar.com/tour Pre-order Sabrina's book coming out October 2026,⁠⁠ "Why Am I Like This?"⁠⁠ Get your free workbook and access to the companion course after pre-ordering 'Why Am I Like This?' by filling out the form at the bottom of the page at ⁠http://sabrinazohar.com/book⁠ Take the new and improved dating quiz! ⁠sabrinazohar.com/quiz⁠ If you’re ready to slow down, trust your instincts, and break your old dating patterns, the Healthy Relationship Foundations Course walks you through it step-by-step ⁠⁠HERE!⁠⁠ Get Ad free ⁠⁠HERE!⁠⁠ Watch on Spotify. Spotify subscribers get fewer ads on my video. Want to work with Sabrina? ⁠⁠HERE!⁠⁠ Get merch for The Sabrina Zohar Show ⁠⁠HERE!⁠⁠ Don't forget to follow ⁠⁠Sabrina⁠⁠ and ⁠⁠The Sabrina Zohar Show⁠⁠ on Instagram and ⁠⁠Sabrina ⁠⁠on TikTok! Video now available on ⁠⁠YOUTUBE!⁠⁠ Chapters: 00:00 From News Anchor To Menopause Advocate 05:24 What You Look For Changes With Age 09:15 Divorce, Debt, And Starting Over 13:38 Knowing When To Leave A Relationship 18:48 What A Healthy Relationship Feels Like 24:19 The Pressure To Have Kids 29:35 How To Decide If You Want Children 35:58 Do Age Gaps Actually Work 40:12 Dating App Burnout And Discouragement 45:48 How To Stop Feeling Behind Disclaimer: The Sabrina Zohar Show, formerly known as Do The Work, is not affiliated with A. Z & associates LLC in any capacity. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:02Speaker 00

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• 0:31Speaker 01

  You sound horrible.

• 0:33Speaker 02

  Oh, I feel worse. This flu is not playing around.

• 0:36Speaker 03

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• 0:40Speaker 04

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• 0:42Speaker 05

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• 0:46Speaker 03

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• 0:49Speaker 05

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• 0:59Sabrina Zohar?

  Hi, Tamsen.

• 0:59Speaker 07

  Hi.

• 1:01Sabrina Zohar?

  I'm so fucking excited to have you on today. When I tell you, the amount of people that have requested this episode is like ad nauseam at this point. So, before we get into any of that, I need you to tell, if anyone who doesn't know you, tell me a little bit more about you. You have such a robust history. I am so excited to dive in.

• 1:18Speaker 07

  Oh, thank you. I'm so excited to be here, by the way. So, I don't even know where to start ever nowadays, but I was a TV journalist for a long time, like years and years and years, in New York City, the last place. And during that time, I, well, let me go back. So, I was a TV journalist. And then during that time, I met somebody who I thought was going to be the love of my life. And we wound up opening a business in New York City, which is how I got to know New York City much better, got to know the dating scene in New York City so much better. The business, the relationship didn't work out. Subsequently, the business didn't work out, but for a while, it was a dating and matchmaking business in New York. Because at the time, which was years ago, there were 200,000 more single women than men in New York City.

• 1:57Sabrina Zohar?

  I should.

• 1:57Speaker 07

  And that number, I'm like, holy shit, that's unbelievable. And why are all these women having a hard time? Because these are amazing women. And why are these guys such assholes? So, that was the premise of the business. Eventually, that went away, and I continued doing my news career. And then about three years ago, I walked away from a 20-year career in news to start advocating for women in health and wellness, and specifically, perimenopause and menopause. So, that's who I am.

• 2:22Sabrina Zohar?

  I love that new podcast.

• 2:23Speaker 07

  I have a podcast, The Tamsen Show. I have two films, Perimenopause and Menopause. And I have a book that I recently wrote, and working on my next one. I love it.

• 2:31Sabrina Zohar?

  Is the next one going to be about dating or no?

• 2:32Speaker 07

  No, it's not going to be about dating. No. No, you know, I did a little bit of dating in this book because it was important. I think, like, women in midlife, a lot of them are going through divorce, and going, what the hell do I do now? Like, I'm getting back out there and date? This is like crazy. So, no, it's not going to be about that. It's going to be about this next chapter. But I think there'll always be dating. We can't get away from relationships.

• 2:49Sabrina Zohar?

  If only, right? You're like, because whether it be with other people or yourself, it's always fucking following you.

• 2:54Speaker 07

  I've had a lot of relationships with myself and a lot with other people.

• 2:57Sabrina Zohar?

  Okay, so, the reason I wanted you on is because not just that you have so much wisdom, but because I love your content that you've created about the lessons, or like, what it messages to little me, or like, what would I tell my 20-year-old, my 30-year-old, right? So, we've got all the run of the gamut. We've got 20s up until 50s, 60s. And I really wanted to kind of understand, what have you seen is the difference from every decade, specifically to where you are now, obviously? What were the biggest differences that you noticed between 20s, 30s, 40s, and into your 50s?

• 3:25Speaker 07

  Oh, my gosh, I like this. I've never been asked this. I love it. I'm going to, I'm going to give it to you. So, I think in my 20s, I was worried about everybody else. Like, I wanted, I wanted to make sure everybody liked me. I would go to bed at night, like, is anybody mad at me? Is everybody okay? Did I upset anybody? Does, is everybody think I'm, I'm nice? And I was hardcore into my career, like, working hard, traveling across the country, traveling around the world. And so, I really, that's all I cared about, was my career and finding somebody. So, I was dating constantly, not in a really great way, didn't care about meeting somebody for, I wasn't worried about getting married. Marriage was never kind of my, like, I've got to get married, which is ironic that I've been married twice now. But, but it was never my, I've got to go wear a white dress and all that bullshit.

• 4:08Speaker 07

  So, not bullshit for people who want to do it, but it wasn't for me. That's not what I wanted to do. 30s hit, and then it got a little like, oh, maybe, maybe I do want to meet somebody. I should be dating. I still was very into my career. I'd just moved to New York City. So, New York City was like, kind of, the next character in my, you know, relationship. And I think what was really important to me at the time, and what I learned in that time, was that I was probably in some really good years of my life, not realizing it. Because I didn't know then, our relationship with time has changed, for sure. So, I thought, oh, my gosh, 40, if I get to, 40s are going to be old. Like, that's literally what I thought. And I always thought, because I was in television news, that I would age out of my career. Like, timelines were a very big thing.

• 4:52Speaker 07

  And I had a woman that was 10 years my senior say, listen, as a woman, you're going to eventually age out of your career, so get it together now, enjoy it, and then be prepared for them not to want you anymore. Especially in TV news, you'd see, like, the old guy sitting next to a young girl, but you never saw the older woman sitting next to a young guy. 30s, I got married, and I thought, like, okay, this is it. Married, we started a business together. That was super exciting. I thought, this is how it's supposed to be. 40s hit, not so much. I get divorced, and I said, okay, this is my single-girl era again, and I'm going to be on my own, and I don't need anybody. That was kind of what I thought. But it was very empowering. It wasn't like, I don't like anybody. It was, wow, I've done it now, and I feel really good about myself.

• 5:35Speaker 07

  And somewhere in my 40s, I hit a stage, another transition in my life, which was perimenopause and menopause. And I really understood how important health and wellness were during that time, and what I wasn't paying attention to earlier. And so, I think what I learned there is, like, I've got this, and I have to rely on myself for my advice. And it felt really good. And it felt good also to have the younger generations that I could bounce back and forth between. And now, my 50s, which I, it's weird to say that, I don't know, I feel like very, very empowered. And I feel better than I did when I was 20 years old, which is a crazy thing to say. And not like some bullshit line, like, oh, I feel bad. I actually really feel, because I know who I am. And I know what I won't accept, and I know what I will accept. And I don't stay up at night wondering if someone likes me or doesn't like me.

• 6:20Speaker 07

  And, and I know where my strengths and weaknesses are. I have both.

• 6:23Sabrina Zohar?

  I don't know if you saw, there was like this meme of Love Island, and it was like, Love Island over your 30s?

• 6:27Speaker 07

  Yes.

• 6:27Sabrina Zohar?

  And it was, oh, they don't want, no, I don't, I don't care. I don't, she can have him. And it's like, just shows you the difference. In my 20s, I was a hot fucking mess, as you know, like I talk about in the book. Don't forget to preorder the book.

• 6:38Speaker 07

  Yeah, preorder this book. I read this cover to cover over the, of course, the last few years. I was like, I don't want this to end. And I don't think about that. Usually, I'm like, what page am I on?

• 6:48Sabrina Zohar?

  Yeah.

• 6:48Speaker 07

  I didn't want that book to end. Congratulations, seriously.

• 6:51Sabrina Zohar?

  Like, in my 20s, hot mess express. Like, it was just, do you like me? Do they pick me? Are they going to text me? Will they call me? I have to look hot, I have to look sexy. And I remember just, what, how little clothing could I wear?

• 7:03Speaker 07

  Oh, me too.

• 7:03Sabrina Zohar?

  And just, you know, to get, and it's so funny. I really, in my 20s, just always believed, and maybe that was also generational, like, growing up with Victoria's Secret and the fashion shows. I always wanted to model, but I was never thin enough to model. It was like that fun game.

• 7:15Speaker 07

  I was never tall enough to model. I'm 5'3". For some, my parents lied to me. They were like, you're the most beautiful girl on earth. And I was like, wow, I can't believe it. And then I saw Cindy Crawford, and I'm like, wait, I'm not.

• 7:25Sabrina Zohar?

  You're like, that was lied to?

• 7:26Speaker 07

  What?

• 7:27Sabrina Zohar?

  Yeah, what the fuck? Yeah, I realized, like, I was the awkward, gawky girl. I had short pixie cut in middle school, like. Then I moved to New York, and I all of a sudden became hot. Like, I started walking, losing a bunch of weight, growing into myself, and being like, oh, guys are paying attention to me. They've never done this. So, my entire 20s was fueled by, how much attention can I get from people? Then I moved, and I can only talk into my 30s, and I have to stop at that point, because I can't go on.

• 7:50Speaker 07

  That's okay, you're lucky.

• 7:51Sabrina Zohar?

  Then I go into the 30s, and I started to really, I think, I remember 30, from transitioning from 29 to 30, being like, I feel different. I don't care as much anymore. And you start, also, prefrontal cortex is more developed, our brain is not as mushy and gushy, and really starting to go, wait, do I like that? Like, does this feel good for me? Understanding the importance of, like, oh, they have a six-pack, but are they emotionally available?

• 8:13Speaker 07

  Yeah.

• 8:14Sabrina Zohar?

  Oh, they're really good-looking, but can they hold a conversation?

• 8:16Speaker 07

  Right? I know.

• 8:17Sabrina Zohar?

  Flipping from the really hot, or they're really cool, or like, I really like their job, to, how do I feel with this person? If my mom were to be in the hospital tomorrow, who's going to be by my side? And really, all that shifted when my dog, when Clem got sick and then passed. The guy was nowhere to be seen. He couldn't be there, he couldn't show. He, I called him, I FaceTimed him from the vet, and his response, when I found out, I was like, he has a month left, I'm crying, and he goes, oh, I was going to watch a movie tonight. And I was like, oh, um, totally. Yeah, I'm, I'm, I'm sorry. And I remember just stopping and going, what the fuck am I doing?

• 8:50Speaker 07

  Who, right?

• 8:51Sabrina Zohar?

  What am I doing? And then now, and now that I'm thirty six, so I'm beyond mid, realizing like, oh, I love my partner, but at the end of the day, we're choosing each other every single day. And if one day he comes to me and says, baby, I don't feel this anymore, or vice versa, I go on with life. I love him, but part of being healthy and secure is knowing it can end at any time. And just the trajectory and the difference from twenty six to thirty six. And I'm like, well, what's gonna happen?

• 9:13Speaker 07

  Huge.

• 9:13Sabrina Zohar?

  As I keep going, but I hear it every day. And I want to hear your thoughts and how you, how you were able to move through this. There's no hope for me. I'm almost forty. I'm never gonna meet anyone, or I, I just got divorced, right? We have a lot of people that have been married for twenty years and are out there. What did you do to get through those fucking days?

• 9:31Speaker 07

  Well, I just want to say one thing, going, going back to thirty six, like, I remember thirty six very well, and I felt like, I was so empowered and strong at thirty six. I love that age. It's like, it's a really hot age, because you're, you're hot and smart. And there's something about being hot and smart, and then you do, the, the other shit matters. You know, it does matter who you're sitting next to. You know, I went through my divorce at, so I got married later, because I didn't even know that I was gonna get married. And I got married later, because I think I was like, oh, my God, I'm thirty four years old. I don't, I don't have anybody in my life. And remember, timelines were different then. I feel like timelines were a little bit different. And so I wound up getting married, and I think that I did it because that was a person that was in front of me. And he was a, a person that jumped without nets, and he was different than I was, because I was like, career,

• 10:16Speaker 07

  move from one television market to the next, be perfect on TV, wear short skirts, look cute. I was the anchor girl, you know? And so when I went through my divorce, and the problem started at forty, and forty one was the, the big part of it. And not only did I go through my divorce, I also lost my business at the same time. I also, he put us in a hundred thousand dollars debt, because he was charging, charging, charging. I know, on our credit cards. So forty one, forty two, it was like, oh, my gosh, like, I, I don't even know how I'm getting through this. And then working every day, I was kind of a different person. Like, I'm working every day, coming home at night to like, my two chihuahuas in an empty apartment on my couch, because he, he had every, taken all the furniture. And so I'm like, what the fuck?

• 10:57Speaker 07

  Like, how did this become me? But what I learned during that time, which I had a lot of quiet nights, I had a lot of nights sitting on that couch, having pizza, I still have my TV, watching television, my two chihuahuas laying there, and I really learned who I was. And I really learned what I didn't like in that relationship, what I did, how I changed. Like, this was a guy that wanted to watch TV all day long. I wanted to travel the world. This is a guy that, you know, flirted with everybody in front of me, and I, and I thought I'd dismiss these red flags as pink flags. Like, it's not that big a deal. So I spent a few years really learning who I was. And I did say to myself, I'm never getting married again. Like, I don't need this. Fast forward to forty, what year, seven, uh, forty six, and I'm at a conference in Miami, visiting my friend.

• 11:41Speaker 07

  I wasn't even supposed to be there. And I'm standing there in the lobby of the Fountain Blue Hotel. I'd just been out by the pool all day, having, uh, mojitos. And I was like, feeling really good, like, in my strong era of, this is what my life is. Like, this is pretty freaking great. And a friend of mine was at the conference, and she introduces me to these two guys, and one is Ira. And she's like, Ira, this is Tamsen, Tamsen Ira. And I'm like, oh, hi. And I'll never forget, I had no interest. I was like, doing my thing. And I felt him put his sticky on me. Do you know what I mean by that? Like,

• 12:09Sabrina Zohar?

  A poster?

• 12:10Speaker 07

  No, like, his sticky, like, he was like, the done. Like, I think it was in one of those vampire movies, like, they imprint on you? And I was like, I think this dude is like, liking me or whatever. I don't know. That's how I felt. I saw him a couple more times during the, during the course of the week, and then we exchanged numbers, but I was still doing my own thing. And I was dating like, a guy ten years younger than me, a guy ten years older than me, and I was just in my prime of what I wanted. And then I got to know him over the course of the next year, and I was like, this is a guy I want to walk the world with. But I have to tell you something. If you are out there feeling like, I've gone through this, I don't know if I have the stamina for another, you don't have to force yourself into anything. You don't have to replicate what it was before.

• 12:52Speaker 07

  But what you do have to know is that you're gonna be okay with yourself. I feel like as soon as you get okay with yourself, then any other possible opportunity opens up. I really believe that.

• 13:01Sabrina Zohar?

  I think it's an honor to get older, because if I get older, I get to learn more about myself, and I get to understand other perspectives. It's funny, because I always tell people in the audience, I'm like, listen to all the episodes, not because I think that they're so magical, but because you get to understand different perspectives, different experiences. Oh, I've never heard of this before. What is that? And you get to expand your capacity. You gave me so many questions, though, as you were talking. How did you know it was time to leave your past relationship? Like, what was that, that crux for you of, I have to get out of this, or divorce, or whatever?

• 13:27Speaker 07

  Yeah, that was a hard one. Nobody in my family had ever been divorced, you know? So for me, when I got married, I'm like, oh, this is for life. We stupidly combined everything. I, I was just like, here you go. We're married now. You're the husband. You could, I mean, it was such an old antiquated mindset, now looking back on it. But I think it was just a naivety, and was it laziness? I don't think so. I just think it was trust that I had in this person, that they were in it for the same reasons that I was in it. But I went through, uh, time with him, and I realized that over time, our value system was nowhere near aligned, which I should have definitely known before, and I did, but I ignored it. I believed I could change him. I had no idea that his relationship with money and mine were so different, and that was a big deal.

• 14:10Speaker 07

  And he was abusive, verbally and, and physically. And I was a strong woman on the outside to everybody else, but not inside the relationship. And I had such a tough time admitting that to myself. It took years of therapy. I never told family. I, I rarely, very rarely talk about it. But I didn't understand what that represented. Like, I didn't understand what I was allowing to happen to me. And I didn't even believe it myself. Like, I couldn't, it was very hard for me to say the words, that I was a victim in some way. And even today, that's a hard thing for me to admit, because I feel very, as a strong woman. But I eventually knew,

• 14:51Speaker 07

  um, there was one, you know, incident that happened where I said, like, I can't anymore. I can't be with, I can't be around this person. This will never change. And I remember we went to a, um, a, a therapist together, and he walked out and slammed the door, and the glass room that we were in just kind of like shook everywhere, the wall shook. And she said, you, you cannot have children with this man. And I can't tell you that, but you can't, because of the temper. And I went, oh, wow. Like, you don't usually have, therapists usually don't tell you what to do. They just kind of are there, and they listen. And I said, this person is going against everything that she's probably knows to be what she's doing. And so, um, eventually I was in the Flatiron District. That still didn't convince me.

• 15:33Speaker 07

  But I was in Flatiron District, and I was sitting there, and I saw, funny now, not funny then, we had finished therapy. I saw him walk by, holding another woman's hand. That's what happened. And I went, okay. And I called, uh, my best friend, who's an attorney, and I said, I, I need to, I don't know how to file for divorce. I don't even know what to do, but that's what I have to do.

• 15:54Sabrina Zohar?

  Holy shit.

• 15:55Speaker 07

  Yeah.

• 15:55Sabrina Zohar?

  You know what? Thank you for normalizing that it's not just that's like, I am woman, hear me roar, and look, I saw it and I walked away. It's like, no, same with my relationship. He left me on the floor, walked over me and said, get over it. You're not the only one who's been in pain. Take yourself to the hospital. And he broke up with me. People are like, oh, you're so, no, no, no. I kept that.

• 16:13Speaker 07

  Yeah.

• 16:14Sabrina Zohar?

  When that choice was made, I kept that decision. But that doesn't take away from the fact that you are an incredibly strong woman. Strength doesn't always mean that you know a hundred percent along the fucking journey and what's right and what's, did you ever see him again, or is that that?

• 16:26Speaker 07

  Oh, no, I've, I saw him a lot. So I, uh, you know, I came from losing my mom at a very early age, and he did too. And I think that was the thing that connected us. So I really do believe that that was the reason that I stayed as long as I did. Because when I go back and I say that, even to myself, and you, you know, even when I talk to my husband, to Ira now, and he's like, I just, you're so strong. I gotta, I can't even picture, you know, you, you staying and doing that. Yes, I have seen him. I don't now, currently, but like, after that, I needed to still have closure. Like, it wasn't so easy for me to just walk away. I could still, was like, what did I do wrong? Because when somebody is, a lot of times, in an abusive relationship, the person will say, I've never done anything else like this to anybody. You caused me to be like this.

• 17:11Sabrina Zohar?

  Yeah.

• 17:11Speaker 07

  And so then I would ask the question, why am I like this? And I would change and change and change, and try to change who I was, until I couldn't, I couldn't do it anymore. And finally, you know, I had to be slapped in the face almost by watching, you know, not just really, but also seeing him walk past me with another woman, not realizing it was there, obviously, but, but catching him to really go, okay, now, come on, wake up.

• 17:35Sabrina Zohar?

  We share a very similar story in that way, just same, same, but different. I was, mine was a few years younger than you were. I was like twenty eight, seven. And it was the same thing. I didn't see it. I didn't see it until he said something so, he told me I was a fucking idiot who was never gonna be successful in my business, and I was lucky to have even have what I had, and that I'm lucky he's there. And that I don't know what I'm doing. And I'm like, I remember just, it hit me in that moment, and I went, get the fuck out.

• 17:57Speaker 07

  Yeah.

• 17:57Sabrina Zohar?

  And he was like, what? And I remember he, I'll never forget this. My sister texts me, and she's like, we're on our way, we're caught. And I said, no, I'm done. And he got so angry, he almost hit me, and he slammed the table, and he broke it. And I remember just standing there, and he left. And I was like, And I remember that exhale for the first time ever. And I never saw him again. I only saw him because he came to pack up his shit and move out. And so like, I remember just being like, just stay strong, just stay strong, just stay strong. And I never saw him again. I saw him on the street eventually and, you know, a thrift store version of me and I was like, toodles, right? And the craziest part was, it took me years for this to happen, but years later, I've never actually shared this and I'm not going to give too much information, but moral of the story was, he was part of some segment on TV.

• 18:38Sabrina Zohar?

  And all of my friends, it was how he was single and he couldn't find love. And he said, I've been single for 15 years. I've never been in a relationship. And so all of my, I'm getting 300 texts. They're like, is this a fucking joke? Oh my God, are you kidding me? And his ex-girlfriend reached out to me and she said, you and I share a very similar story. I end up calling the editor and telling them what happened. She calls me on a private line going, I knew something was going on. I felt something in my gut. He said he had never had a serious relationship. And I was like, we lived together for a year and a half. We ran our business together. Go look on Instagram. He changed all of our photos to just being friends and all of his girlfriends were cousins or friends or business associates. And they removed him from the segment because I was like, you want a lawsuit on your hands? Keep showing him to women.

• 19:20Speaker 07

  I love you for that. I love you for that.

• 19:21Sabrina Zohar?

  And I just, I, and I told him, I was like, you do what you want. And I was like, but I in good faith cannot allow you to put this person out there as if he's this poor wounded bird. But we shared very similar, both his dad and my dad were very similar. And so we bonded over a shared trauma.

• 19:36Speaker 07

  Yes.

• 19:37Sabrina Zohar?

  And that's okay. That makes you human. But if I, like, I remember friends asking me, what do you love about him? And I said, I love this butt. And my friend stopped me and goes, we're done with this. And he goes, because if you want him to change who he is, that means you don't actually love him. And I would say with Ira, what's the biggest difference being in a healthy, beautiful relationship now? What's the major things that you've noticed within yourself, maybe more than the other person?

• 19:58Speaker 07

  Well, you know, first my body, like I feel, I don't wake up anxious anymore. I don't go to bed anxious. I don't think about any of that. My, I didn't even understand, my body was at this heightened alert at all times, but I didn't, it was normal then. So I had no idea. And I think with Ira also, I always say, he's just a grown up man. Like, and I want to walk the world with him. I'm not, I'm not, like, I just want to walk the world with him. Like, I love everything about him. I like his laugh. I don't, you know, when I was going through the heights of like, very menopause, I'm like, could you just stop chewing because like things irritate you? But other than that, you know, I just, I really just love everything about him and his outlook is different. But when I was with my ex-husband, who it was all about him, like, you know, you had to kind of share FaceTime in the mirror, you know, you had

• 20:41Speaker 07

  to share mirror time with, he was just very narcissistic and very charming. And Ira's not like that. He's just real. You know, he's not trying to be charming. He's just kind of funny and goofy. And Anne puts up with, as my dad calls my idiosyncrasies. When he first met Ira, he said, I'm so happy you love my daughter and like, I want you to be happy, but you know, she has some idiosyncrasies, right? And Ira's like, I'm very clear. And so it's just like, it's just fun and I enjoy that and I enjoy our time, no matter what we're doing, which is really nice. But I never thought I was going to have that. I never thought I would find that. I, I thought I was too old, too jaded in some ways, too, just not really that interested. You know, I had a pretty full life.

• 21:20Sabrina Zohar?

  I was going to say, for anybody feeling very cynical, very, I'm never going to find anybody and this isn't going to happen and all of those things, what helped you? What helped you get out of that?

• 21:29Speaker 07

  Yeah, you know, I mean, I will be honest, I spent a lot of time by myself, I did, and really strengthening different things. And I had those times of very hard to get out of bed. I used to have to do lists. I used to work till 11 o'clock at night doing the news on television. And the next morning I'd have to be like, get up, walk the dog, you know, go, go work out, make your, what a shake, whatever, what, I had to write things down to cross them off a list in order to function through a day. Therapy helped me a lot. I went through therapy. That was, that was something that I had done in the past, but not to the extent I had done it here. Like, I really worked on myself. I didn't go in there like, here's all my problems for the day. Like, I really worked on things constantly because I had to understand why I allowed somebody to do that to me.

• 22:14Speaker 07

  Why I attracted somebody like that, because remember I was in the blame game all the time.

• 22:18Sabrina Zohar?

  Oh, yeah.

• 22:18Speaker 07

  And then we had a lot of publicity around us because we would run this matchmaking business. So there were write-ups in the paper and he was constantly talking to the newspaper and talking to the television, you know, and I didn't, because I was on, doing the news every night and I didn't want that kind of exposure. So I had to really kind of like fold into myself for a little bit. And then once I did that and I went back out there dating and I, and I loved this part of it, I was dating a younger guy, I was dating an older guy. I was really honest with everybody. I'm like, I just want you to know, I'm not dating one person, not interested in that. Like, I'm, I'm doing what I want to do.

• 22:49Sabrina Zohar?

  Love that.

• 22:50Speaker 07

  Yeah, I loved it. It was a great time in doing that in New York at that age. But I, I think what got me through it was really understanding and listening to who I was and what I wanted again. And I hadn't heard that in a long time. You know, I had kind of bullshitted myself as to what was going to make me happy. And I also thought I needed to fit in this timeline of like, now it's time to get married. Now it's time to figure out if you want children. Now it's time to do your career. Now, I was trying to be this perfect person to everybody until finally, so relaxing when you can stop doing that.

• 23:18Sabrina Zohar?

  The one thing that changed everything for me when I was going through the breakup, because I lost myself, was it couldn't have all been my fault. Just acknowledging and admitting, it can't have all been me. I can't be 100% responsible for this. The other person played a part. It doesn't mean that they're, I'm good, they're bad or vice versa. What that means is, I allowed bullshit behavior. I showed up in ways that weren't authentic to me. I thought this was okay. And that's what I can take accountability and ownership on myself. And when I finally did that, I didn't care about the other person. I took the shine off of him.

• 23:47Speaker 07

  Yep.

• 23:47Sabrina Zohar?

  Because what made him so fucking special? The fact that I wanted him to choose me? Okay, so that actually has nothing to do with him.

• 23:52Speaker 07

  Yeah. Well, mine was constantly proving that I, yeah, it was good enough. Like, I'm good enough? Am I good enough? And then, you know, when I went out of that relationship and they skipped one really, skipped one of the relationships, I went into one with who I call my Mr. Big. He was the guy that would never commit, never. Always kind of made me feel like half-assed, always kind of, you know, I'd be like, oh, I got a new job. And he goes, yeah, but are you on CNN? Are you, are you national? Are you just, you know, it was like, I was never good enough and I was always trying to prove myself to him. And, and I think that, you know, I realized over time, like, wow, you're getting ready to repeat this whole thing all over again. You need to move out of this in a very quick way. It's interesting to see the growth that that happens within those different times in our life and relationships.

• 24:34Sabrina Zohar?

  I was just saying something brilliant. I get that. But I had to interrupt you guys to share a very special announcement. I'm going on tour, but we have a minor change in that tour. So I will be in the UK, October 6th, we have a live show, baby. Go get your tickets. Me and Tom Stroud, we're going to be having a Q and A. And then October 27th, I will be in San Diego, doing that with Ms. Masha K, our favorite nervous system expert. I had a show in October 16th in LA and unfortunately, we had a snafu with the theater and so we had to reschedule that. We are aiming to move that to December. So my babies, thank you. We have refunded everybody and I cannot tell you how goddamn grateful I am. You guys are helping me make my dream come true. I get to hug you and meet you and share my new fucking book with you.

• 25:16Sabrina Zohar?

  And if you can't come see me live, that's okay, baby. Thank you for pre-ordering and I'll come to your city soon. I love you friends. I'll see you soon.

• 25:25Speaker 00

  Fall never arrives all at once. First the air, then the light. And slowly the things you love begin to find each other. A jacket meets a dress, a hoodie slips beneath a blazer, an old cap finds a new scarf. Because you don't simply step into the season, you create it layer by layer, until it finally feels like fall. Find fall your way at Ross.

• 25:53Sabrina Zohar?

  Can we talk about the elephant in the room? Children.

• 25:55Speaker 07

  Yeah.

• 25:55Sabrina Zohar?

  When you were, as you're getting older, I know for me, I have made the choice, I don't think I want them. It's not 100, but at this stage of my life, if I had it been 20, different story. How did you navigate that? Because I think a lot of people listening are, shit, am I ever going to meet anybody? But what if I want to have a kid, the ticking clock? There's a, there's a real, and I will not try to deny that.

• 26:14Speaker 07

  Yeah, it's real. You know, I was in the news business and at the time, everybody was, we're all kind of the same age, you know, so people were having children, getting married, having children. I was watching it all happen around me. So I did definitely feel that pressure to get married at, at that point. But when I got in that relationship with him and the person that I was in the relationship with, I knew I couldn't have kids and that. And even during that time, because I didn't, I didn't really decide one way or another. Like, I just never sat down and went, oh, I really want children. And the fact that I never said that, I was like, is that my answer? But I'm supposed to. And, and it was a lot, it was a lot less of a conversation then than it is now. Like, I'm really happy. I have a lot of women stop me on the street right now and be like, oh my gosh, thank you for making it be okay that you don't have children and, and talking about it openly.

• 26:59Speaker 07

  And I do talk about it openly because nobody did to me. Nobody did to me. The only thing anyone asks is like, when are you going to have kids? Who's going to take care of you when you're older? You know, you're never going to know fulfillment until you have a child, the love of a child. And so for a long time, that really did rock me in a lot of ways. It made me scared. It made me think like, oh my gosh. God forbid, had I had a child with this person, who he was and what he was capable of, that would have been so tragic. I did go to a fertility clinic. I did go to see like where I was in terms of if I was able to. And I remember walking out of there going like, I just don't know what to do. Like, I just don't think, and that, not knowing what to do, let me know I knew exactly what to do.

• 27:42Speaker 07

  But I will not pretend it's not been pressure. I will not pretend I sat around a table with, you know, my stepmom saying like, if you don't have kids now, you know, it's going to be a real, it's going to be much harder. I had a lot of that imposed on me of something was wrong with me because I didn't make the decision to have children. And when I look at myself now, at this age, and a lot of my friends, their kids have grown up and they're empty nest and, you know, and we had these real candid conversations about it. I felt really great with the decision I made. I love kids. My nephew is like, one of my favorite people in the world. However, it wasn't the right decision for me and I, and I know that now, but it is a tough one when people are putting that pressure on you.

• 28:20Sabrina Zohar?

  I'm 36. I chose not to have children and sometimes there are moments where you're like, am I making the wrong decision? Am I fucking up? But then I have to remember, what's my why? Why do I want kids? Because you're telling me I should be having them or because I genuinely believe that that is something that's right for me? And I've made the choice with my partner consciously to say, that's not what I want right now. Could that change next year? Absolutely. And I'm leaving space open for me to make a choice and change, but I'm not going to allow the external world to tell me how I need to live internally. If you believe for religious reasons or your personal reasons that having children is the right of a woman and that's why we're here, I respect your decision and I kindly ask for people to respect mine that I don't agree.

• 28:57Speaker 07

  Mm-hmm. I mean, even at 55, I'm 55 years old and I still get asked to this day, why didn't I have kids?

• 29:02Sabrina Zohar?

  They're like, mm.

• 29:03Speaker 07

  Isn't that crazy?

• 29:04Sabrina Zohar?

  Well, it's like, I have you, who are my good friends? It's like Emily Morris, Gillian Turecki, all of us are like, no kids. And I see them and I'm like, you guys just seem really fucking happy. They did a study, Ryan and I were looking at it, that it was, you know, that conversation you were just saying of like, who's gonna take care of you?

• 29:19Speaker 07

  Yeah.

• 29:20Sabrina Zohar?

  And they talked about hospice workers and they said the people that had the worst experience were ones that relied on their children to be there for them because they were always disappointed when they weren't. Whereas the people that didn't have kids were not as sad when they were done because they just hired the people to do it.

• 29:34Speaker 07

  I, I believe that. I believe it wholeheartedly. I think what makes me sad is that people do continue that. And, and it's interesting, that pressure never stops and I don't know that people, I don't think all people ask that question in a, in a way that's trying to be mean, or I think that sometimes people don't know what else to ask. Sometimes people are trying to have a conversation, but I will definitely say this, to this day, now I've learned how to answer the question and people like it or don't, accept it or don't accept it, but I've learned how to answer it at this age. But I remember, what, 26 years old, 36 years old, 40 years old, constantly being asked the same question. And then I remember my friends being asked the question, if they'd had one child, when are you gonna have another one? When are you gonna have another one? So it just felt like, who am I trying to please here?

• 30:15Speaker 07

  And, but it really wasn't until the last, maybe seven years that I've really talked openly about it because people didn't ask it or, or necessarily want to receive that information.

• 30:26Sabrina Zohar?

  Hundred percent. And I will say this, for anyone that's listening, if you want a kid no matter what, and you're now in your late 30s and you're realizing this is it, you gotta start to ask the question. To me, that's the game changer is, what kind of father would I want this child to have? And because that's the type of partner I should be looking for. When I was in my early twenties, ah, whatever, I want the cool guy, the hot guy, the this. Then you get into your 30s going, wait a minute, no, no, no, I want someone that's going to be loving and affectionate to my child. I don't want them to go through what I did. This guy is ignoring me for three days. Imagine what he'll do when a kid is there and that's annoying to him. I think it's about really understanding and reverse engineering. Then there's the, the obvious, right? You can't force that. So obviously like I had a girlfriend, she took matters into her own hands. She had a baby in the way that worked for her because she was like, I wanted a kid no matter what.

• 31:11Sabrina Zohar?

  And she was 43 and she's like, it's never gonna fucking happen for me. I'm gonna make it happen for me. If there's any advice that you have for anybody that's listening right now that's really struggling, that really wants a kid and they don't know what to do.

• 31:21Speaker 07

  I, I think two things. If you don't know what to do because you don't have a partner, I think what your friend did is the right thing to do and take matters into your own hands versus meeting somebody who is not gonna be the right person is, you don't want a child in a household like that either. That would be the worst thing. I, I also think this, I also think you've got to figure out your why. You know, just like you said, you really do. Do you want that because your sister has kids and your brother has kids and you feel left out? Do you want it because you've always wanted to have kids and you really, like that is what you at your core really believe that is gonna make you whole? And I also think you have to think about what, if you don't wind up having children, what do you want your life to look like? You know, what is gonna be important? I, I think that a lot of people assume that somebody doesn't have children because they've chose something more selfish.

• 32:02Speaker 07

  And I don't believe that is, that is a narrative that we have to continue to perpetuate, but it has been around for a very long time. You chose your career, Tamsen, over your kids, over kids? I didn't choose my career over kids. I chose not to have children. That, that's, that's where the sentence ends.

• 32:16Sabrina Zohar?

  I love that. Or like I see it on threads all the time of like, oh, well, you know, we're tired because we're kids. Anyone who doesn't have kids, why are you tired? It's like, no, you made that choice.

• 32:24Speaker 07

  Moms are some of the biggest supporters I have out there. Some of the biggest supporters I have out there in terms of, of knowing that I, I made a decision for, for whatever reason I made the decision. And it's interesting, when I go and look now, I, I talked to Ira about this, I said, because he has two children. And so I'm like, oh, this is my bonus kid, you know, they're grown up. And, and it's great. Like it's, it's fun. And then I have my nephew. So I have a lot of different experiences in that I just don't have my own children. And I, you know, I said to Ira, I always wonder if I had met you at 35 years old, would we have kids? Cause he's like such a cool, fun dad. Maybe it would have been different, but where I was at that age, there was no way in hell that I was gonna bring a child into this world in the world that I was living in.

• 33:05Sabrina Zohar?

  Thank you for saying that because I have said that when my mom asked me the other day, she was like, yeah, but Sab, don't you want kids? And I said, mom, if at 24 I met like the super rich guy that was amazing and incredible and we could have the nannies and try. Yeah, maybe I would have had kids, but I'm 36 right now. My partner and I are not anywhere close to wanting that. My career right now is my priority. I gotta get my shit together. And you know what? For the first time, I get to baby myself. I get to love on me. I never got to put myself first. I finally get to. And so for once I'm going to, and I'm gonna disappoint other people. I have my same thing, niece, nephew, love it, love it, love it. But I wanted to ask you about the matchmaking before I fucking forget because I gotta know. It was what, like 20 years ago, right?

• 33:43Speaker 07

  God, you're gonna date me now. Let me think. Yes, it was, it was, yeah, it was in my 30s.

• 33:49Sabrina Zohar?

  I'm curious because I hear this every motherfucking day. Dating nowadays is so much harder than it ever has been. What do you have, what did you notice then that either is different or the same?

• 33:58Speaker 07

  Well, I've dated all these errors. Good, good news for everybody, but I've dated a lot of different errors. Here's what I think. Look, dating was really hard then too. The reason we started that business is because of the numbers, because there were so many more single women than men, especially in New York where men who were, you know, 40 were dating 25 year olds and men that were 50 were dating 35 year olds. Like it's very, very different. It, I believe it's very, very different in New York or at least was then. I think a couple of things. I think that nowadays you're meeting people on a ton of different ways. Picture this, there's no dating apps. There's no swiping left or right. There are no phones. There were no iPhones back then.

• 34:36Sabrina Zohar?

  It's a landline. You miss me, you miss me.

• 34:38Speaker 07

  If you miss me, leave a message on my answering machine. And so, you know, so dating was very different. I wouldn't say it was harder back then or harder now. I would just say it was really different. I think that then we had less awareness of people, right? So Face, Facebook had just started to come around then. Let me think, 2008, which I, I don't know if Facebook was there, it was kind of, kind of towards the end of it. But I just remember like people couldn't look anybody up. So if we set somebody up, they weren't going online being like, you know what? I found six pictures with his ex-wife and two of his kids and his dog. You know, you couldn't do that. So you went on a date and you got to know the person and people weren't checking their phone all the time. And people weren't like looking to see if there was somebody better that they could meet an hour later.

• 35:21Speaker 07

  So I think that that part of it was a little bit, a little bit different. I do think there was still a lot of the same pressure that women had back then, which were, I've gotta meet somebody before 35. By 35, I'm dead in the dating world. I don't know that that's the same thing now. I don't, I don't know that I see that, but maybe I'm just not as aware. I don't feel it.

• 35:39Sabrina Zohar?

  It, it's less, but it exists, I think internally. A lot of the questions I had gotten was like, I feel like I'm never, like, I feel like I'm late. I got some saying I'm 27 and I'm too late. And I was like, oh baby.

• 35:50Speaker 07

  What? No.

• 35:51Sabrina Zohar?

  27 is not too late, Angel. You are just getting started. You are just figuring your shit out. It's not 1930 where your lifespan is only until 40.

• 35:58Speaker 07

  I know, I know. We have a different relationship of time now too, than I think that we did before for sure. And then I think now, yeah, look, there's tons of choices now. That can make things just as difficult. There's tons of choices. And I think that our attention spans are a little bit different, but I definitely do think that it's an exciting time to be able to date because I think there's opportunity, a lot of opportunity and a lot of opportunity to say no.

• 36:19Sabrina Zohar?

  It's because now, also the tables have turned, right? Where we are the freest as women we've ever been, I hope, right? We can vote, we can make money, we can have careers. We are still not paid the same, but it's fine. It's not fine, but you know what I mean? It's like we can do all of these things. We can make choices not to have kids. We can make choices that I can say, I don't want, I'm gonna go to 10 buck two next week. I don't need to do that. And yet now, then there's this role reversal. What's really crazy to me is I was, Ryan and I like to just look at a lot of new studies. Gen Z now has the testosterone of 70 year olds because the microplastics and all these different things. And so I'm starting to hear a lot of girls be like, where are the men? Where are the men? Right? And then the men, I hear them go, where are the old fashioned women? And I'm like, wait, wait, are we, are we going backwards?

• 37:01Sabrina Zohar?

  Are we going back to the 50s of the trad wife and I want this and this? To me, I'm like, this is the most exciting time to be single or alive right now because I can choose what I want.

• 37:11Speaker 07

  It's a hundred percent the most exciting time. I mean, look, I can guarantee, I can tell you that for sure because I've been through all the different, I've been through all the different decades, but it really is an exciting time. And I think that, you know, look, with choices comes a lot of pressure. With choices comes a lot of responsibility, but I certainly would not want to go backward.

• 37:30Speaker 00

  Fall never arrives all at once. Burst the air, then the light. And slowly the things you love begin to find each other. A jacket meets a dress, a hoodie slips beneath a blazer. An old cap finds a new scarf. Because you don't simply step into the season. You create it layer by layer until it finally feels like fall. Find fall your way at Ross.

• 37:58Sabrina Zohar?

  All right, Tamsen, let's go through a not rapid fire, rapid fire. What do you think about age gaps?

• 38:03Speaker 07

  I'm fine with age gaps because I've had them. Now, not crazy age gaps, but 10 to 15 years.

• 38:09Sabrina Zohar?

  Okay, now I want to expand. I got a ton of fucking questions asking about age gaps. I had done, I think, a YouTube short on age gaps because I was like, I don't, you need to talk about it for more than 10 minutes. And the studies showed older men, younger women have like a 90% chance of not working. Like significant difference, not just a few. Older women, younger men had a 65% chance of working.

• 38:28Speaker 07

  I believe that.

• 38:29Sabrina Zohar?

  And now we're seeing now younger men want to date older women, want to date older women. What is your thoughts on what feels appropriate? I know you said 10 to 15 years, but I'm curious because to me, I think if you're in your twenties, 15, 20 years, way too big versus in your thirties.

• 38:43Speaker 07

  Different.

• 38:44Sabrina Zohar?

  Different.

• 38:44Speaker 07

  I'll give you my experience. 35 years old, I was dating a 45 year old and it felt like, okay, but right on the edge. I have a 12 year gap with my husband. Now, before I was with him, I was with a younger guy and an older guy. And so the younger guy was a 10 year gap, which felt enormous to me, but amazing to him. And the older guy was a 20 year gap and that felt really too old. Like, I don't know what I was like, I think that we're just good friends.

• 39:15Sabrina Zohar?

  They're like Goldilocks.

• 39:16Speaker 07

  Yeah, so I do think it's like the younger you are, I think you've got to close the age gap a little bit. Like if you're in your twenties, I think go past, if you're 25, let's just start at 25, let's not go further. 25, if you're going to like five years, six years, maybe you're okay. I think you go to eight, nine, 10, that feels like a lot. It feels like there's a lot of changes going on there, I think.

• 39:35Sabrina Zohar?

  Oh, when I was in my early twenties, all I dated was older men.

• 39:37Speaker 07

  Yeah.

• 39:38Sabrina Zohar?

  I, oh my God, I.

• 39:39Speaker 07

  I only did a few years then, I was only like three or four.

• 39:42Sabrina Zohar?

  10, 15 was my minimum.

• 39:43Speaker 07

  Really?

• 39:44Sabrina Zohar?

  And I'll never forget, I don't actually think I've shared this story. I was 19 and I lived in East Village in a like, no joke, it was like 50 square feet apartment. It was like 1,200 bucks a month and I was working full time and I could afford, like that was freedom to me.

• 39:56Speaker 07

  That's a dream. I'm going to tell you, every girl's coming, every girl came to New York City like, oh my God, this just, I just want to be in the city. That's all I wanted.

• 40:03Sabrina Zohar?

  It was this size. It was like a bed and then a closet in the wall and that was it. And I fucking loved it. And I matched with this guy who was 45.

• 40:10Speaker 07

  Didn't look it. And you're how old?

• 40:12Sabrina Zohar?

  19.

• 40:12Speaker 07

  Wow, okay.

• 40:13Sabrina Zohar?

  Well, he looked better than most of the fucking 30 year olds.

• 40:16Speaker 07

  See what I'm talking about dating in New York City?

• 40:17Sabrina Zohar?

  It happens. And I remember we were at a dinner and like, I come from South Florida, I don't come from nothing, right? So like, he says, you know, I want you to know, like you can feel comfortable ordering anything. And I was like, um, okay. Like it's not, it wasn't like a five star restaurant, it wasn't a $5,000 bill. I was like, okay. And he's like, no, no, I, I just want to make this clear. I know you're not used to like the nicer things in life and you've never really experienced feeling really like being able to go out. And in my head, I'm like, you do realize it came from bogey, right? Like I, I didn't come from like podunk, middle of Kentucky that I've never been anywhere besides like a chain restaurant. And I remember just looking at him being like, um, okay, and he just wouldn't stop. And I remember the bill was like $80 and he was like.

• 41:00Speaker 07

  So insulting.

• 41:01Sabrina Zohar?

  Just making it this whole thing of how he can take care of me. I remember just being like, what the flying fuck? And then a few years later, I dated this guy, I was cuckoo cuckoo over him. And I was 24, he was 36, it was 35 or 36.

• 41:13Speaker 07

  Okay.

• 41:14Sabrina Zohar?

  And his friends all called me the teen. And I would get so annoyed because I'm like, why did he call me that? Now at 36, if somebody brought a 24 year old, I'd be like, who brought the kid?

• 41:24Speaker 07

  I know, I know. Yes, of course.

• 41:26Sabrina Zohar?

  What do I talk to you about? You don't have half the music I know, you don't know the experience, girl, you don't know what happened. And so people ask all the time, they're like, he's 29 and 37, okay. It's like, let's say this again.

• 41:36Speaker 07

  Yeah.

• 41:37Sabrina Zohar?

  If you're under 25, anything over like a four to five year age gap is too much because one, that's grooming. If you're 22 dating a 50 year old, what the fuck do you have in common?

• 41:46Speaker 07

  Come on.

• 41:47Sabrina Zohar?

  What do you have in common?

• 41:48Speaker 07

  No, that's just gross.

• 41:48Sabrina Zohar?

  To me, that's grooming. That's, that's, that person knows your frontal lobe is not developed, knows you don't make choices for yourself in the same way. And I don't mean to insult my 22 to 23 year old, but go watch any show now where you get to watch them in their natural habitat and you're like, no, no, no, they need an adult in the room.

• 42:03Speaker 07

  And trust me, you don't, you don't want somebody, no. And not, it just for, I just, no, there's time, no. All right, next question.

• 42:13Sabrina Zohar?

  This one I really like. How to not get discouraged after years of online dating and not finding someone?

• 42:17Speaker 07

  I get it. Offline maybe a little bit? I mean, I really do, I really do believe that. I really do believe there's other options. I think if you're discouraged online, move off of that and put that away for right now. Because I do agree, it can be discouraging.

• 42:29Sabrina Zohar?

  I see the apps as another vehicle, right? I met, I met Ryan on Hinge. I fucked him on the first date and was like, I'm never going to see this guy again. The reason it worked out wasn't because I, no, it's because I let go of the outcome and I was like, meh. Prior to that, online dating was a noose around my neck. It was so much stress. I took, I had to take notifications off, I had to put boundaries around it and I was going out and I was meeting people. If you're going to put yourself out there, you got to be okay with it, it might not work.

• 42:55Speaker 07

  100%. I mean, I always think of it as, I don't want to say a numbers game, but I do think of it as a numbers game in a lot of ways. I mean, I think you have to if you're, if you're going to do any of that without making yourself crazy or making it a full time job. And then I also think nowadays, I don't know, I guess I'm, I met Ira in person, like I didn't meet him online. I met him by accident, I wasn't looking around. So I get a lot of questions like, where'd you meet him? I want to meet somebody like Ira. I, I just met him because I was out doing my thing. I wasn't out like joining a running club when I don't run to meet somebody. Like that's not what I was doing. But it was really nice because I was enjoying my life at the same time. I wasn't like, I felt like I was never wasting any time looking around for him. And I just was going about my business, so that was kind of nice. And I think, I get how dating apps can be discouraging.

• 43:38Speaker 07

  I have a lot of girlfriends who have been on them for years and years and years. Some are still so very, very hopeful, which I love and it's great. But I was like, don't close out the other easier ways to like look up and smile at somebody. Because I think sometimes we're on the app, like going back and going forth and not paying attention to where we are around us.

• 43:55Sabrina Zohar?

  100%. And the reality is, I've met people in person and then found out they're in the apps. Like there's this weird villainization as if like, you're a loser if you use the apps. It's like, no, it's just another way to meet people.

• 44:05Speaker 07

  Why is that? Because I thought that, I mean, I guess I just think they're a normal part of everything now. It's not like when we were first on, you know, Match or any of the, you know, the original, original ones. Those are like very, very different times, changing to get your computer at home and watch your inbox. Okay, Cupid.

• 44:21Sabrina Zohar?

  I aged myself there. Now, I think because, to me, I think the biggest issue is people use dating apps assuming everyone has the same intent. And they forget that there are people that are newly divorced, there are people in open relationships, there are people that want casual, there are people that want serious. And I think that people get so hyper focused on like, well, they match me, why aren't they answering me and why aren't they having a conversation? They need the certainty before you've had the opportunity to even fucking meet this person. A dating app is just another vehicle for you to potentially see if this is the right person for you. And I think what I really see often is that we put so much focus that this has to work. You're so beholden to the outcome, which is why both of us have the relationship because we were both going, oh, this was lovely. And if I never see you again, I move on with my day. Because when you're hyper fixated on it, you'll probably start acting in ways that will fuck it up.

• 45:06Speaker 07

  There's no question. Or you just, you're, you become different when you're doing that. When you're so fixated on something, you actually become a different person.

• 45:14Sabrina Zohar?

  Okay, next question. And this one might be a little loaded, but we'll see. How to set different dating goals at different ages?

• 45:18Speaker 07

  That's a good question. I, you know, I think in the twenties, you should be having fun. I do, I think that that should be the goal of getting out there and having fun. And that's me looking at it, looking back now. Maybe not 28, 30, but I mean, I, I think if you want to, if you want to have a goal of like, I want to meet some quality people, that's great. But I would have a good time during that. 30s, if you're really serious about wanting to, to find somebody, then I think you've got to be a little less whimsical about all of it, right? If you're going to go out drinking every night, you're probably not going to meet the man in your dreams. Maybe you will, but maybe not. And I think you've got to be a little more open minded with telling people what you're looking for, paying more attention, showing up, being out there a little bit more. And then in your 40s, it depends on whether or not you've had a relationship already and you're getting out of it and going back out there dating, or you've not had one and you're in a panic. But if you're in a panic about that, that is a worse place to be.

• 46:03Speaker 07

  So you've got to kind of pull back a little bit and be a little bit calmer. Because I've seen so many women that put this, again, that timeline pressure on themselves to find somebody. And I think it's a, it's like holding on so tight. And when you hold on so tight, nothing works.

• 46:17Sabrina Zohar?

  What we got to get rid of is, I'm so fucking tired of hearing like, nobody wants me and I'm never going to meet anybody. It's like, yo, that's what you believe. And if you believe that, there's a part of your brain called the salience network and it will go and look for that every which way. And then you will go and fuck with people that don't want you or that don't care about you. But you completely overlook the girl that maybe, or the guy that you didn't feel the spark. Or they were just too nice, or all of those things. But what you don't realize is, that's what we want to go for. It's not the person that's one dimensional is just agreeing with you. It's the person that doesn't give you these high highs and low lows because that's called safety.

• 46:48Speaker 07

  And also the list, like stop with the list.

• 46:50Sabrina Zohar?

  Burn the fucking list.

• 46:51Speaker 07

  Please, please stop with the list, please. I, I met a friend who was like, this is what I want. This is, I want him to have this and that, and that, and this. And I was like, you're 45 years old and you have been telling me about this list for like 10 years.

• 47:04Sabrina Zohar?

  He doesn't exist.

• 47:04Speaker 07

  Stop the bullshit. Because I don't, I don't even think you want him anymore with that list. Like I honestly don't think you even want him anymore. And then I also think that if you've gone out with somebody and there's no spark and no inch or whatever it is, you don't know who that person knows. Like that's kind of why I like the online dating a part of things. Because I feel like you can meet somebody and then meet somebody through that. Who knows? I've heard that story so many different times from people, like I went out with a guy, but I met, but he had a friend and that's who I wound up going out with. So go out and enjoy dinner or drinks or coffee or whatever it is, or your walk, or your hike, or your sourdough class, whatever you're going to do with this person for the first date. And, and see who else they know. I mean, I think you have to do that. I, that's what I believe.

• 47:42Sabrina Zohar?

  It's, you got to put yourself out there. All right, last question I got for you. How do you get over feeling behind?

• 47:47Speaker 07

  Oh, how do you get over feeling behind? I don't think there's a timeline like that, you know? And I think that we really impose that on ourselves and I know that's a real feeling, there's no question. I feel like it all the time. I came in here, I'm like, hey, we got to do this, that, this, that, we got to talk afterwards, after we film. But the truth of the matter is, I don't feel behind. I feel like excited about what's next. And I think if you can switch your mindset, like I'm excited about what is going forward versus I'm trying to play catch up all the time, I think you're leaning in a different direction.

• 48:14Sabrina Zohar?

  Couldn't agree more. Feeling behind, you're like, according to whom? Right? Society, your parents, all those things. And it's like, you're allowed to disappoint people.

• 48:21Speaker 07

  Yeah, and everything's going to change. And I think, you know, when I try to look at what's important, I'm like, am I going to give a shit about this in a week? Am I going to give a shit about this in a month? And the answer's most likely always no.

• 48:31Sabrina Zohar?

  I cannot tell you how many times, even when I'm going through stories to share with people and I'm like, fuck, what was that guy's name?

• 48:36Speaker 07

  Yeah.

• 48:36Sabrina Zohar?

  And I'm like, uh, you mean I was like obsessed with this guy?

• 48:39Speaker 07

  The one that you loved for a year?

• 48:40Sabrina Zohar?

  Couldn't get out of my head, I'm like, Brandon, Brian, Brad? And then you say, they're like, that guy? And you're like, oh yeah, I don't remember. I had that same, like if I, if I won't remember this in a day, a week, or an hour, then this really doesn't need to take up any more of my time. Oh, Tamsen, I could talk to you all day.

• 48:56Speaker 07

  Oh, this is so fun, I love this.

• 48:57Sabrina Zohar?

  Thanks for being here. All right, where can people find you?

• 49:00Speaker 07

  Tamsen Fadal, all over the place, social media, website, and yeah, I love talking about this.

• 49:06Sabrina Zohar?

  And for your book, if you had a menopause, just really quick before we hop off, I am 36, so I know perimenopause, all of these conversations are happening that never used to happen.

• 49:14Speaker 07

  I know.

• 49:15Sabrina Zohar?

  Who should start reading this?

• 49:16Speaker 07

  Yeah, you know what's interesting is I was, I was talking to somebody the other day and I said, we need, we need a baseline, right? So you're going to go into the doctor and you're going to, whatever, do your, your annual or your physical, whatever it is, go to your gyno. I think we need a baseline about 35, 36 years old. And the reason is, is because menopause, I used to think like, oh my God, this happens when you're old. I went into menopause at 47, but I started perimenopause in my late 30s, early 40s. So I started having these symptoms. I was hot, I was getting weight, I had joint pain, all this crap. And I'm like, I'm 41 and I can't sleep anymore, what's going on? No one ever mentioned it to me. So I think it's good to just know it. So if you're on this, you know, our hormones are on a continuum.

• 49:56Speaker 07

  So if you're in your reproductive years, or if you're not in your reproductive years, but you're in your late 30s, I think you should just be paying attention to those symptoms. All it means is hormonal changes. We've put all these titles and everything, but at the end of the day, it's all hormonal changes and we've been having those for our whole lives.

• 50:09Sabrina Zohar?

  It'll be linked in the show notes. Go order this book, trust me, follow Tamsen, you don't want to miss her content. You guys, thank you so much for being here. Don't forget to rate and review the show, share it with a friend that you think would love it, leave a five star review if you think it's worth it, we know it is. And I love you guys, I'll see you soon.