Part Two: The Holistic Psychologist: Why Childhood Wounds Block Intuition, How Trauma Pulls You Into The Past & The Science of Reparenting Your Nervous System | Dr. Nicole LePera

What if the reason you feel stuck isn’t about your job, your partner, or your motivation, but a wound you’ve been carrying since childhood? In this episode of Mayim Bialik's Breakdown, Dr. Nicole LePera — better known as “The Holistic Psychologist” and author of Reparenting the Inner Child — reveals why your adult patterns are NOT random…and why insight alone will never set you free. Dr. Nicole LePera breaks down the 9 different childhood wounds silently shaping your adult relationships, like: - If you couldn’t trust a caregiver → why you’re guarded, suspicious, and prone to self-sabotage - If you had too much responsibility → why you’re a compulsive caretaker battling burnout and weak boundaries - If you were rejected → why perfectionism and people-pleasing became your survival strategy She also reveals: - Why “inner child work” feels like being pulled into an alternate timeline (how your nervous system literally drags you back into the past!) - Hidden damage of being a parentified child, and the burnout, resentment, and boundary struggles that follow you into adulthood - Shocking prevalence of sibling abuse, and how it fractures the inner child in ways most people never acknowledge - Real dangers of corporal punishment (& what it wires into a child’s nervous system) - Why denying a child’s emotional reality creates lifelong shame - Shame 101: What it actually is, how it’s different from guilt, how it lives in the body - How unresolved emotions block your intuition and keep you from your life path Dr. LePera explains how childhood wounds don’t just live in your memories — they live in your body. Chronic tension. Digestive issues. Hyper-independence. Emotional numbness. “Survival mode” that you thought was normal. (It’s not.) We also unpack: - Can you truly heal if you can’t reconcile with your parents? - How emotionally immature caregivers were shaped by their wounds - Why it’s especially hard to admit you need inner child healing when you’re a parent yourself - What people are getting completely wrong about boundary-setting - Delicate balance between honesty with kids & preserving parental authority - Why it’s never too late to become the parent you didn’t have - Shadow work: The unconscious forces driving your projections & sabotaging your relationships And maybe most importantly…How to have grace for yourself while making small, powerful shifts. Because healing isn’t about blaming your parents. It’s about reclaiming your power. It’s about realizing survival mode was adaptive, but it doesn’t have to be your forever state. If you’ve ever thought: “Why do I keep doing this?” “Why do I feel shame for no reason?” “Why can’t I just change?” This conversation might be the missing piece. On the other side of this work? Clarity. Regulation. Authenticity. Hope. And proof that it’s never too late to come home to yourself. Dr. Nicole LePera’s latest book, REPARENTING THE INNER CHILD: The New Science of Our Oldest Wounds and How to Heal Them: ⁠https://theholisticpsychologist.com/books/reparenting-the-inner-child/⁠ https://theholisticpsychologist.com/books/reparenting-the-inner-child/ Follow us on Substack for Exclusive Bonus Content: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://bialikbreakdown.substack.com/⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠BialikBreakdown.com⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ https://www.bialikbreakdown.com/ ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠YouTube.com/mayimbialik⁠⁠⁠ https://www.youtube.com/mayimbialik%E2%81%A0 Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices https://megaphone.fm/adchoices See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:04Mayim Bialik?

  Hi, I'm Miam Bialik.

• 0:05Jonathan Cohen?

  And I'm Jonathan Cohen.

• 0:06Mayim Bialik?

  And welcome to part two of our conversation with the holistic psychologist, Dr. Nicole LePera. We're talking about her new book, Reparenting the Inner Child: The New Science of Our Oldest Wounds and How to Heal Them. But what we actually talked about in part one of our conversation with Dr. LePera is how the different wounds we receive in childhood manifest in adulthood, in our relationships, in our work, in our lives. If we're not in touch with our intuition, it's likely because these wounds are acting very, very strongly in our adult life. We also talk about what it's like to be the child of emotionally immature parents, why it's hard to do work on the inner child, and what survival mode looks like. We hope you enjoy part two of our conversation with Dr. Nicole LePera.

• 0:54Mayim Bialik?

  You devote, you know, a healthy and deserving part of the book to shame. I would love to talk about shame. The acronym I've heard is SHOULD HAVE ALREADY MASTERED EVERYTHING, which is what I think of when I think of shame. And that's usually what it feels like. I wonder if you can talk a little bit, I mean, there's many kinds of responses we have to feeling shame. And I hadn't thought of people pleasing, avoidance, isolation, projection, body consciousness, overcompensation, being controlling, having secrets, being defensive, self-harm.

• 1:36Mayim Bialik?

  I hadn't thought of those as what if we view these as responses to shame? Can you talk a little bit about what shame is, how we feel shame, how we distinguish that from guilt, and what it looks like when a child experiences shame?

• 1:55Speaker 02

  So in contrast to guilt, which is a feeling that we have about a behavior, right? We feel badly about something that we've done. Shame is a more pervasive, identity-based feeling where we feel badly about who I am. And shame, right, again, back to this idea that I was referencing earlier about we learn who we are and what we're worthy of in childhood. For more often than not, shame originates in childhood, where we weren't seen as enough just for being who we are, right? And I think so many people fall into that category, right? Where we were only seen to be enough conditionally, when we were performing in some way, or when we were easy and quiet and not rocking the boat,

• 2:36Speaker 02

  or when we were overperforming or caretaking, like we talked about in terms of reparenting. So we and our inherent worth, right, gets defined then more by action. And shame, we can, in my opinion, at least, we can even map it on to a nervous system state of disconnection, of a shutting down, right? Of where we're actually kind of disembodied ourselves, where we're disconnecting from our inherent worthiness, right? Only living the certain parts that are showing the world, right? Hiding the things that we think would cause us to be rejected or abandoned, again, just like in childhood. So for so many of us, right? The actions or inactions of our earliest caregivers, again, because of the way

• 3:19Speaker 02

  our brain developmentally couldn't zoom out and defer responsibility, because none of it ever was ours, right? We assign that meaning. You didn't show up for me, or you abused me, parent, whatever it is that you've done, because of something unworthy about me. In childhood, this is the most ultimate form of control. Why? I can't pack my bags and leave, but what I can do is notice those cues. And children are very observant. They will notice what pulls a parent closer and maintains connection, or what... Pushes the parent away and then we become, right, shameful if we don't have a parent that says, you know what, maybe I don't like what you've done. So to be clear, we have to, of course, you know, teach children boundaries and they have consequences if they do things. Shame is very healthy because it preserves bonds, right? We can't get rid of shame, but we can teach

• 4:04Mayim Bialik?

  It's identity.

• 4:05Speaker 02

  A healthier.

• 4:06Mayim Bialik?

  Right, we identify. And I'm trying to think, you know, I once peaked on a spelling test. We used to have those desks where there was like a little shelf, you know, there was like a little shelf underneath and I was pretty sure I knew how to spell. I believe the word was disappointment, which is

• 4:20Speaker 02

  Oh, ironic.

• 4:21Mayim Bialik?

  The irony is not lost on me. And I just, I peeked and confirmed it, right? And I ended up confessing because I, I felt guilt, right? I felt guilt, but when I think about what is shame, you know, and she, and Mrs. Cass was, she was a wonderful, wonderful teacher and, you know, there was nothing negative that came of that. But what I can imagine would lead to shame is, what's the matter with you? And if anyone has ever had that screamed in their face by an adult, what's the matter with you, right? And that's shame, right? I'm bad. I'm the mistake, right? It feels like a personal flaw. I'm reading the chart, you know, leads to hiding self-criticism or withdrawal. Oh.

• 5:02Speaker 02

  Let's also factor in the school system too, right? This is even beyond parenting in our homes. I mean, I'm just thinking even back to thankfully, the school systems are somewhat changing and there's alternate schools you can go into to perhaps more individualize a child's needs. But when we grew up-

• 5:16Mayim Bialik?

  But still mostly for elite people.

• 5:18Speaker 02

  Wasn't the case, right? You know, and so children, I can't tell you, my partner being one of them, Lolly, sent, shares horrifying stories of, she was told very young that she did some aptitude test and when she was very young, she was told that she was going to be a tugboat captain. I mean, she, this lives in her mind until today and she is the most brilliant. I mean, stands right next to me, builds this business. I mean, I look up to her in so many ways. And so these things are so heartbreaking-

• 5:41Mayim Bialik?

  Not that there's anything wrong with being a tugboat captain.

• 5:43Speaker 02

  No, tugboat captains are great, you know, to all the tugboat captains out there. But I know it's not her body type just wouldn't be a tugboat captain. She's just not built for it. The life on the sea is not her. But that aside, you know what I mean? So it's like, it's sad, the messages that were given, you know, sometimes I have a memory too of I, my mom demanded straight A's, my family did. And that's because again, they thought that, you know, success and achievement were the way to me to be financially secure in adulthood, which they were somewhat wrong, but not in all ways. So- Anyway, turns out that psychologists don't make all that much money.

• 6:12Mayim Bialik?

  Nor do they need to get all As.

• 6:14Speaker 02

  Nor do they, but I have this memory, again, in a childhood I cannot recall, yet I can recall the day that I did not get an A. I may have gotten like, God, a 78, say, for instance. And we had to have our test signed. And I was now met with the most ultimate dilemma. Do I tell my mom, right, and show my mom my 78, which isn't even like that bad of a grade? You know, I had, you know.

• 6:34Mayim Bialik?

  It happens.

• 6:35Speaker 02

  It happens, you know, and I didn't, um, instead, and my mom had the most hard signature to plagiarize.

• 6:40Mayim Bialik?

  You forged her signature?

• 6:42Speaker 02

  And I did it so badly that I like wore the paper, like, it was so silly looking that I'm sure my teach, I did not confess. I was very good at hiding secrets.

• 6:52Mayim Bialik?

  There's still time.

• 6:54Speaker 02

  My mom, I did that.

• 6:55Mayim Bialik?

  Surprise, there's an answer.

• 6:57Speaker 02

  And, yeah, but I did, I, my teacher probably knew and felt bad for me because I always got straight As and nothing was ever said, but I remember the amount of stress and turmoil because I felt so shameful that this 78, right, was going to reflect so poorly on who I was and my mom wasn't going to love me anymore, that I tortured myself to the extent that it's one of the few memories I have is like sitting there laboring over with whiteout, trying to sign my mom's name.

• 7:21Jonathan Cohen?

  When we're talking about shame and when you were talking about, oh, it would have prevented you from pursuing the life that you ultimately have, can you talk about how these unprocessed emotions, especially shame, can prevent us from following our instincts, following the life path? I believe that each one of us has a unique life path that we're here to experience and it's by being able to follow the signposts, the moments of intuition that we get there. Can you talk about what it's like to have access to intuition and then what blocks that?

• 7:54Speaker 02

  Yeah, so just to kind of connect, get into the conversation with shame, shame is a shutdown, right? We're actually disconnecting from our intuition. So, right, we begin to live in our minds, separate from our body, outsourcing, asking other people what they think because they're more worthy. And so, we're not even tuning in. To where intuition, right, lives inside of us. Some of us kind of take what I would call loosely the opposite, right? Where we are so tuned into someone else, right? We're hyper vigilant, we're always scanning, always bracing, always looking for every shift in mood. Again, because at one time, that unpredictability in our early environment, we needed to be attuned in that way, right?

• 8:35Speaker 02

  So now, again, we're not only, we're not, we're disconnected to some extent, but we're overly kind of like activated, we're misperceiving. I mean, there's really powerful studies where the more trauma, especially when it's relationally based, the more likely we are to misinterpret neutral stimuli as threatening, as aggressive, right? So now, when we talk about instincts-

• 8:57Mayim Bialik?

  That's having your guard up, having your backup, right?

• 9:00Speaker 02

  Thinking, like you read earlier, that everyone's unsafe, that the world is unsafe, that no one is trustworthy, even in a moment where there is safety that is present. So, all of the adaptive ways that our nervous system learned to survive in unpredictability and unmet need, right? Follow us and then become what feels instinctual, right? Where we're just sure that we can't trust this person. We don't know why, right? Because they've not given us any logical reason not to trust them, it's just that feeling. So, it's confusing, right? Because we're like, oh, feelings are internal, it's my compass. And we have fused survival states for so long, like we were talking about earlier with the jaw, right? Always being on guard has felt so normal that we do think it's our intuition talking

• 9:44Speaker 02

  that's telling us that no one is safe. But, again, it is really an intuition that has been colored and is really a survival mode that is functioning.

• 9:52Mayim Bialik?

  And also, and I think this speaks to kind of, you know, the whole concept of this book, and I want to get into reparenting next, but the notion that you think you're walking around with an inner child is incorrect. Your inner child is on the outside. It's interacting with every single person, it's getting offended, it's getting hurt, it's crying, it's not being able to regulate emotions, it's filling the God-shaped hole. Your inner child's on the outside of you. So, all of these wounds, right, that we think are inside, and nobody needs to know, and you don't need to know what my mom was like, and like, I'm fine, right? You're, you're just pissing them out all over the streets.

• 10:25Speaker 02

  They're visible.

• 10:26Mayim Bialik?

  You're not fully anyone.

• 10:28Jonathan Cohen?

  Can you take us a little bit further, one step further on this notion of intuition? What is it like to have access to that inner compass?

• 10:36Speaker 02

  Having access to an inner compass is having moments of calm, grounded presence. It's the ability to be flexible, right? We lose flexibility where we become certain things are all or nothing. We're just so sure that we know your motives. We lose kind of nuance. So we gain that. We see possibility and alternate solutions too, right? We can become so locked and loaded- Creativity, right?

• 11:03Jonathan Cohen?

  Can we expand on that part? Because I think that may be the biggest piece that people don't understand. We see our lives as they are, not what they might be able to be. And how does doing this work and reconnecting with that inner compass show us a much wider range of possibility?

• 11:22Speaker 02

  So first, just kind of focusing on why we can't see or we limit sight. Again, a very practical, you know, kind of function of our nervous system is to do just that shrink awareness so that all we're focusing on is what we need to focus on, which in a moment of stress is the threat at hands. Which is why we become hyper fixated on what's bothering us, what's upsetting us. We ruminate on it in our head and we only then again can see very limited solutions, right? Usually what has once worked in the past. Again, work being used loosely, meaning the quickest way-

• 11:55Jonathan Cohen?

  It kept you alive.

• 11:56Speaker 02

  Kept us alive and the quickest way to ease the discomfort in that moment. But literally, our nervous system, our eyes even turn inward. We become hyper focused on what we need to focus on, which is the thing that's stressing us out. So then we limit, right? Any other possibility, solution, factor that might be contributing to someone's behavior. And so, until we again, through not just insight, begin to practice- Regulating a nervous system by first noticing when we're stressed, right? Taking moments to rebuild a connection with our bodies so that we can determine how much stress we're under, right? If we are kind of in a moment of activation. I mean, I know more often than not, in a moment of upset, I am certain that what how I'm feeling is correct. I will always feel this way.

• 12:41Speaker 02

  The only solution usually is for you to do something different or say you're sorry.

• 12:44Mayim Bialik?

  Or for us to break up.

• 12:45Speaker 02

  Or, oh, love that. I even sometimes, I'm so sorry, Lolly, I will say this on air. I sometimes still throw that out, right? In a moment of upset, why? Because that's what I learned in childhood, right? Oh, if this isn't working, any sign of tension or conflict, any sign of disagreement or definitely disappointment, I'm out, right? And so my protection is to remove myself emotionally or sometimes say something really hurtful, like, maybe this isn't gonna work, you know? And that's not what I mean. Time goes by, I take a walk, I actually allow my body to calm down. And then I'm feeling a little bit sheepish shameful, right? Because I see another solution. I see a couple that very much loves each other, is safe and secure, but had a hard moment. How many times, right? In time, does our perspective naturally shift?

• 13:26Mayim Bialik?

  That's something that so many of us never had modeled. And I guess it depends what generation you're growing up in. But most of us never had healthy emotional regulation modeled.

• 13:37Speaker 02

  And definitely not repair. Not what to do after a disconnected moment.

• 13:41Mayim Bialik?

  Like, I don't know what anger's supposed to look like.

• 13:43Speaker 02

  No, my mom would give me the silent treatment. And then sometimes days, weeks, even months, if it was a really bad thing, like when I came out, which was not to be, you know, not the desired outcome. And then it was as if just one day, just out of nowhere, we're just talking again, right? So no resolution.

• 14:00Mayim Bialik?

  That's crazy making. I mean, that's reality bending, right?

• 14:02Speaker 02

  It's reality bending, right? You're left to wonder. I mean, obviously, you get the sense that you caused that in, you know, you caused. So what happens now? Any movement of distance, right? I or tension, or you're not responding to me in the way or as quickly as I want, right? The inner child is there and is like, oh, I know what this means. This means you did wrong, Nicole. This means you did bad. And sometimes, right? The best solution is to push you away before I'm hurt even more.

• 14:25Jonathan Cohen?

  And it will happen in friendships. It will happen in work dynamics. It will happen with other family members that are not your children, your cousins. Like, it happens everywhere.

• 14:34Mayim Bialik?

  Well, because you're the common denominator.

• 14:36Speaker 02

  And how often at work, right? Feedback comes and you're convinced you're losing your job. You get an email about a standard meeting tomorrow and you're spiraling, right?

• 14:43Mayim Bialik?

  Or you want to quit.

• 14:45Speaker 02

  Or you're gonna leave, right? Screw you, I'll leave you first before you fire me. When in reality, like, there's a part of your mind, maybe that knows you're doing well at work. You just got a great evaluation. But in that moment, right, the inner child is online and is convinced that someone's mad at you, that you're not, you know, appropriate at this job anymore.

• 15:01Jonathan Cohen?

  And if you're trying to do your own thing, if you're an entrepreneur, you're like, well, how do I see a solution to problem? Life is really just a series of problems that we have to navigate and a series of disconnections. And if we don't know how to navigate those disconnections, then we don't have options in front of us.

• 15:18Mayim Bialik?

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• 17:49Mayim Bialik?

  You talk about the different kind of spheres, right? The spheres that we operate in, that we, kind of as primates, need to operate in. And the section of the book that is dedicated to reparenting methodically and really beautifully goes through each of these spheres, right? So if this is a desire that was quashed, here are the exercises, the thoughts, the actions you can take to repair that. And you go through each of the spheres. So we're not going to be able to get into all of them, but I wonder if you can talk a little bit for people who, again, might kind of like meh, roll their eyes at this notion of like, "reparenting, that sounds so soft, right? It sounds like, I don't have access to that." You talk about reparenting as rewiring, and I feel like that's a really great place

• 18:33Mayim Bialik?

  for you to help us understand why this isn't some like, "fluffy, get in touch with your inner child and kumbaya." This is like, your brain is operating a certain way, and if you are having any dissatisfaction within yourself, in your relationships, at your work, with friendships, if something's not right, if people are accusing you of being sensitive, or reactive, or aggressive, or you feel like you're pickers off with who you're dating, right? It's likely because there's something going on that is wired into your system. How does reparenting change that wiring?

• 19:09Speaker 02

  Yeah, so those dysfunctional habits, right, usually come online in moments where there's a similarity to those earliest experience, whether the similarity is the first sphere that I talk about. The foundation of any change is creating safety and security in our body. Reconnecting with it first, right? Noticing when our body is feeling unsafe, noticing when our muscles are clenching, our heart is racing, our breath is quickening, or we're holding our breath and slowing down our movement, slowing down our breathing, right? Releasing that tension, not just one time, but consistently over time, right? Where we're sending signals. So this is right for all the people who were like, I know I'm safe, but I can't rest. I can't relax. I can't sleep at night, right?

• 19:52Speaker 02

  I know my partner is coming home to me, yet I have all of these racing thoughts of how unsafe I am. So by noticing, of course, all change begins with awareness first, then choosing small shifts that we can make to create safety. Because with reparenting really is, is a journey where we're kind of accompanying ourself on development and becoming the safe, nurturing, compassionate, supportive, not only in thought, but in action caregiver. And that thought piece is important because once we have an understanding of, right, these were habits that were formed in an environment where safety was scarce or unpredictable or security, or I could not just show up, or I didn't feel worthy being who I am, right?

• 20:34Speaker 02

  So for a lot of us, that part of us gives us compassion for these parts. Because I think we're all agreeing, they're not going away. We keep ourself, though, disconnected from our fullness when we're shaming those parts, when we're not understanding that some, for some of us, our inner critic is, that the intention of it is protection, right? We learned in childhood that being a little too dramatic caused mom to scream or yell, or for me, stop talking to me. So I learned to be a little less dramatic. Now I have that voice that's reminding me of what's going to happen when I'm too dramatic, right? That is protection. So everything that we're struggling with, if we can just soften to the reality that A, it's there. B, it's there for a reason, right? It formed at a time where that's the only option we had. That was what we needed to do to create safety.

• 21:19Speaker 02

  And then C, expand our awareness to the possibility that we can begin to show up in a new way. Because that's what reparenting and healing really is. It's learning how to experience the current moment in a new way with a new choice.

• 21:34Jonathan Cohen?

  And I think it's important to emphasize that you don't need to heal all of your trauma before you notice any difference, right? It's like when we say you need to calm down, you need to relax. We're not saying that you have to be in a relaxed state all the time.

• 21:47Speaker 02

  And nor can you. So another disclaimer here is there is no, I have not found, if any listeners have, please, the holistic psychologist, please find me. There is no kind of, I'm done, I'm healed, I'm kumbaya zen all the time. The human experience is colored with difficulty, with emotion, with struggles, with disconnection, with disagreement, right? So the goal is to just equip ourselves to show up with intention and alignment, right? Where I can choose how I want to move forward. And the reality of it is, is change does come in gradually. It doesn't happen in one lightning strike of a dramatic insightful moment where now the wand has been waved and I just totally feel differently. And more often than not, we don't feel differently for some time, right?

• 22:32Speaker 02

  We have to show up. And this is what I think prevents a lot of us from starting, myself included. I want to wait until I feel like starting or till I feel inspired and till I maybe feel comfortable speaking publicly to bring my story back, right? If I would have been waiting for that, I would still be waiting, right? I had to show up uncomfortably at first, right? Talk myself off of every ledge of how terrible I am and what people are going to think. Sometimes even get verified about how terrible I am and what people think, right? And I had to keep doing it anyway, right? Now, my experience and my feeling has begun to shift. But again, if we go in with the expectation to wait till we feel differently, that it's not going to take committed action, we're going to continue to be frustrated or maybe blame the world around us. Like, guess what? This is life.

• 23:17Mayim Bialik?

  Right? Meaning like, there's not, I mean, obviously, there's a beginning and we're kind of always in the middle, but we never know when the end is, right? So the work that we're doing, like, that's the work of your life. So every relationship that you're in, that's an opportunity to practice. And for those of us who, you know, think of a higher power or of God, like, God or the universe, if you don't like God, the universe will keep giving you an opportunity Sure it will. To prepare, right? It will keep saying, "How about now? How about now?" Like, we're trying to give you the lessons. Waiting for you to choose different. Correct. This is the story of the flood, right? And the fireman knocks on the door and the guy's like, "God's gonna save me." And then like, a boat comes along and he's like, "God's gonna save me." Helicopter. And he's like, "God's gonna save me." And he gets to heaven and God says, "I sent you a fireman.

• 24:00Mayim Bialik?

  I sent you a boat and I sent you a helicopter." Like, what, you know, reach your hand out, right? So, this is kind of that work. It will follow you. It's, you know, emotions are like pee, right? They, they, you can try and hold them in, but they're gonna come out.

• 24:16Jonathan Cohen?

  I'll share a personal experience of something that I think I experienced very early in my life, that repeated and repeated and repeated. And it's gonna tie back to this idea of sibling abuse, which I think a lot of people haven't even considered, that someone very close to them could be causing a huge emotional conflict. I had a very intense relationship with my older brother. I loved him unconditionally. He was the greatest thing in the world. And also, he was much bigger than me. And I, almost as a way to interact with him, when he was ignoring me, I would taunt him like crazy. And then he would attack me. And then I'd be really upset and we had this back and forth dynamic.

• 24:58Jonathan Cohen?

  And especially as we got older, like, I, like, he would hurt me. The rage I felt towards him was like, no rage I could possibly ever experience, because I loved him so much, that when he got to that place where I was so physically hurt, I was like, I would just be, like, I was out of my mind angry. That rage followed me.

• 25:23Jonathan Cohen?

  Into another relationship years and years later. And that person angered me like no one else. And most people who know me, they're like, I've never seen you mad.

• 25:35Speaker 02

  I've seen you mad.

• 25:37Jonathan Cohen?

  It takes a lot. It takes a lot. When that anger would come out, it was like a mystery. It's like, where did that come from? Why would something so innocuous seem to anger me so much? So the first moment-

• 25:51Speaker 02

  And you never connected it to this.

• 25:53Jonathan Cohen?

  Never connected it. And I thought it was the person's problem who I was dealing with. Like, why are they acting like this? This is so unreasonable. And like, in the worst of it, when I was really in conflict, I was, very rarely would I externalize anger, or just be stuff I would feel inside. I threw my phone across a room. It hit a brick wall. The phone cracked. And I'm like, this is maybe a sign that things need to shift.

• 26:22Speaker 02

  I've broken many phones, even amateur.

• 26:26Jonathan Cohen?

  The beginning of the shift was to identify and say, okay, externalizing that rage is a red circle behavior. I don't want to get there. So I have to identify, oh, wait a second. I am now experiencing something that is likely not attributed to that person. There is something happening and going on here-

• 26:46Speaker 02

  If it's hysterical, it's historical.

• 26:48Jonathan Cohen?

  And I have to pull back. Doesn't mean the anger goes away. Doesn't mean that- But I put some parameters on myself, like a child who was going to tantrum. You're allowed to be upset. You're not allowed to break the house. And starting to work with that part to say, okay, I acknowledge it. I see it. And so when you're talking about first identifying it as, we have to be aware of it. Well, how do we start to then contain ourselves and provide that container?

• 27:13Speaker 02

  I mean, anger is an incredibly important motivating emotion. It signals when our boundaries are being crossed and when our needs have gone unmet for too long. It is kind of the final stop. And I, like you, have had a habit of, and this kind of like colluded with my, you know, desire to overanalyze. I, my habit is to zoom out when any, anytime someone did anything that possibly could have been upsetting to me, whatever the upset might have been in the moment, and explain away. My upset to the extent of like over understanding, oh, well, right, this is and this has followed me up until even like you're saying, things don't go away. They just, the universe says, here again, here again, here again. Right. So a more recent relationship, right, explained away because I had understanding of this person's past and what caused them to have

• 27:58Speaker 02

  these explosive moments. And so I know they didn't mean it. It wasn't about me. And so I made it. I removed me from the equation and I overstepped in my own boundaries. So to be clear, some of us think a boundary is about putting an ultimatum or an expectation on someone else. No, it's me saying, oh, I'm not gonna, you know, be involved or communication with you when you're at this state of elevation. I'm going to remove myself, but I didn't do that because I held space and I held space and I held understanding and I held understanding and then what? I got done with it and then I became

• 28:26Mayim Bialik?

  And you're holding it all.

• 28:27Speaker 02

  The angry person who's screaming and yelling and maybe throwing a thing or two myself, you know, in a understandable moment of pent up anger that came from so many moments where I removed myself, my needs, my perspective from even the conversation.

• 28:40Jonathan Cohen?

  And you become unreasonable because you've tried to help.

• 28:43Speaker 02

  What's wrong with you? You know, why are you acting like this? Now you're the problem. And in reality, yes, I was acting in a problematic way, 100%. But my problem started in childhood, where I couldn't say, hey, I understand that you're not equipped, you know, mom or dad to show up in the way that I want it, but you know, like I still need it, these things, and my needs are now unmet and I need to find a way and take responsibility, right, to find safety in myself and other relationships with people who aren't either explosive outward or disconnecting so that I have to manage you.

• 29:17Mayim Bialik?

  Jonathan, thank you for sharing also so honestly about this kind of sibling dynamic. This is not something that people like to talk about and we're glad that you do talk about it. Can you talk a little bit about the difference between normal sibling tension, roughhousing, fighting? What constitutes sibling abuse? And what additionally does that do to one's inner child? I guess both inner children, right?

• 29:42Speaker 02

  Thank you, Jonathan, for sharing that because I think it is something that isn't talked about because it's shameful, because it again, I think people assume then if one is to acknowledge that they were abused at the hand of their siblings, that somehow the parents are at fault, which isn't to say that, again, parents do play a role and of course, you know, there is modeling of behaviors and actions and, you know, that are then repeated. Again, so many dynamics.

• 30:04Mayim Bialik?

  But a lot of times, kids are also playing out tension in the home.

• 30:07Speaker 02

  Exactly. As I say, it's kind of the tension or the dynamics that they see or tension that they're experiencing at school is now coming home and bullying. Or again, the parent doesn't have tools themselves, so they're maybe engaging in different bullying behaviors and then the child is enacting it. Because again, children don't have language, they don't have logic, they are just being the reaction.

• 30:26Jonathan Cohen?

  Also, the children may be playing out and then the parents get back and they don't know what actually happened.

• 30:31Speaker 02

  Right. So, so there is normal children developing alongside of each other. Of course, there's going to be developmental challenges, there's going to be birth order challenges. Again, to be clear.

• 30:40Mayim Bialik?

  Personality differences.

• 30:40Speaker 02

  Personality differences, attention differences, right? Children are attuned to the child who gets different treatment by parents or is, you know, kind of, there's so much that will then play out between siblings. So to be clear, you know, disagreements, conflicts, like any relationship, that is a normal part, especially when you're living in the pressure cooker, especially around some developmental ages, like pre-adolescence, adolescence, right? A lot of hormones.

• 31:06Mayim Bialik?

  Maybe every year of their lives.

• 31:07Speaker 02

  All of it, right? I have two older siblings, but they are so older, 15 and 18 years older than me. That is as if I am an only child. So it's very unique experience. I'm like, I have siblings, but it's not, we never had that. Like, I can't relate to like the sisterly, brotherly dynamic that some people can. But there is still a limit where it does cross over and into abusive behaviors, which can sometimes look like physical violence, right? Where there's like physical escalations, altercations. It can look like more emotional, where there is teasing or, you know, kind of defamatory statements or name-calling. There can be ostracism if there's multiple children, right?

• 31:49Speaker 02

  Where one child is left out and there's just so many, again, interpersonal dynamics that will come and especially come out in the home. Again, that trickle down, you know, that a parent will often be modeling directly or indirectly, or be the result of a child not having an outlet for the feelings.

• 32:07Mayim Bialik?

  And also, just to clarify, you're not saying that all teasing is abusive. You're saying that there's a level that that can go to among siblings where it it crosses that line.

• 32:19Speaker 02

  100%. A lot of it has to do, right, with the person experiencing.

• 32:23Mayim Bialik?

  And frequency and intensity.

• 32:24Speaker 02

  The teasing too, right? You know, like, there can be good natured fun, and then teasing where the person is or says or is clearly uncomfortable, and it is kind of crossing beyond

• 32:36Mayim Bialik?

  Right.

• 32:36Speaker 02

  good nature. But yeah, frequency, duration, things like that.

• 32:39Mayim Bialik?

  Threat, things like that.

• 32:41Speaker 02

  And especially if and when the child acknowledges, hey, this is hurting, stop, hey, this is making me uncomfortable, and it, then when it continues, then I would say that's a good marker that it is.

• 32:52Mayim Bialik?

  How prevalent is sibling abuse, do you think?

• 32:54Speaker 02

  I think it's probably more prevalent than we can even imagine, because I think very few people, you know, want to share. It's kind of like, it's hard sometimes for some of us to share our parents and what really happened or didn't happen in our home, because again, we want to protect, we don't want to, we feel shameful that we've allowed those things to happen, right?

• 33:13Mayim Bialik?

  Or it happened without our purview.

• 33:14Speaker 02

  Right, all of, for all of the reasons. So I don't know if there's like a person, a number that has even been landed on, but I would have the idea if there were to be a number out there, that would probably be lower than, because again, children are learning and they're taking in, and they don't have, and a lot of times, again, children are spending more time with the siblings than the parents. If parents aren't physically present in the home or emotionally present most of their time, I have the idea at least, or with their siblings. So those then become the relationships where these dynamics play out.

• 33:43Mayim Bialik?

  I think the jury has has given their verdict on hitting children.

• 33:49Mayim Bialik?

  And I know that there are distinctions that people make between a swat on the tush when somebody runs out into the street versus a routinized, "You're going to be spanked" versus also being hit in anger, which is very, very disturbing and upsetting, obviously. But there's been kind of this seesaw, and I've heard more and more conversation about, "This is what's wrong with America, is that kids don't have any respect because nobody's hitting them, and let's go back to the good old days where they knew who was in charge and they got a whopping once in a while."

• 34:28Mayim Bialik?

  And I wonder if you can speak to a little bit about what happens neurologically, somatically, and also psychologically when a child's receiving someone else's inability to control their anger, which as a parent, I can tell you, every time I could imagine wanting to hurt my child, it was only because I did not have the support, the resources, or the tools to handle what was otherwise pretty normal behavior. Can you talk a little bit about this?

• 35:05Speaker 02

  Yeah, I mean, the first thing I want to say to that is nothing degrades respect more than physical violence or boundaryless behavior in that way, because that's what that is, it's a boundary violation. You've crossed the physical line, and you've hit me and caused harm. In addition, it activates when someone is under physical assault, even when it's with a parent, which is even more confusing then, when the person that's supposed to love and care and support and protect you is now the person whose hand is causing you now physical pain. That immediately will, even just a hand coming at you, our nervous system, that now is the threat, the hand. Doesn't matter that it's attached to my mom or my dad, it's a threatening hand. So now my nervous system is...

• 35:47Speaker 02

  Activate it, right? I'm in a threatened state and that is not going to elicit the respect that we're looking for.

• 35:53Mayim Bialik?

  And that's not teaching resilience because a lot of people will say, "The world's hard, you gotta be prepared and that's gonna just, you know, get you ready for life."

• 36:01Speaker 02

  To be clear, boundaries teach resilience, right? Limits of two behavior, right? Teaching a child that a stove is hot, right, limits the child's ability to be burnt or the possibility that the child is burnt. So, limits are absolutely, right, but I think the question here is how do I, how do I kind of communicate the limits and then the consequences when limits are passed? And again, to be clear, physical violence is going to scare a child and not elicit the respect we're needing. So, it's about, you know, communicating, right, actions that have consequences, right? And allowing, to some extent, when it's safe and appropriate, right, the child to live the consequence of the action and also to

• 36:42Speaker 02

  be the home safe space, right, when a child is overwhelmed and needs to then come back. But, we need limits and we need to, and we can communicate, right, consequences of actions in a different way that doesn't activate because again, when a child is scared or threatened or abused by a parent, right, now we have such a conflict that quite literally their biological wiring is saying, "No, this is the person that you need to connect to, right? That's your safe space." And at the same time, it's saying, "But don't get too close, right? Because this person, if you act poorly or wrong or whatever, they're just in a bad mood from work." I mean, sometimes it's not even really you at all, right? Then they

• 37:23Speaker 02

  also could be the cause of your trauma and your wounding. And so, now, right, we create a conflict within ourselves where, again, as a child, we can't see our parent realistically or we can't allow in their inadequacy or their abusive behavior because that feels even scarier and more threatening, right? So, we idealize them and degrade or shame ourselves.

• 37:48Mayim Bialik?

  And that kind of confusion is sort of like the best way to wound the inner child.

• 37:51Speaker 02

  That is.

• 37:52Mayim Bialik?

  That confusion and even like when parents are, you know, even if there's not sexual abuse, right? If there's boundaries crossed in terms of what you know about them or their lives or there's comments or there's things, those kinds of boundaries can be very confusing for a child, right? And confusion is very upsetting to that inner child.

• 38:10Speaker 02

  Yeah, and so can a lack of... While your just communicate, uh, confusion came to mind, so can a lack of conversation, right? I think some of us were raised with parents who didn't want to, the child to be exposed to anything. Everything happened between closed doors, yet you knew that mom and dad were in a fight behind the doors because you felt the tension or you heard the yelling and then they come out and they're like, "Don't say anything." So can silence, right? So sometimes, right, boundaries and what's happening and just realistically communicating, you know, what is happening. No, nothing can be more confusing, especially in a divorce, right? When a child isn't told why separation is happening, a child will assume that they're the cause of it. Oh, nobody knows what to tell kids when they get separated. Right? Even just acknowledging that it's not you. It can be as simple as, we don't

• 38:52Speaker 02

  have to tell what happened in the, the relationship, but hey, I see you, I hear you, it's not you, it's okay to be sad. I might still hate the partner that I separated from, but I can understand why you still love your co, you know, the parent. And so there's just so much that, you know, parents, I think, again, try to do with well and good intentions, but even hitting, right? To some extent, the intention is to, you know, have a child who does not do unsafe things and has a resilience and can cope with the world. But that is, again, is not the path to create that or instill that or even model that for a child.

• 39:25Mayim Bialik?

  You talk about shadow work. What would you like us to know about the forces that are operating that we don't see that may be having more of an impact on our lives than we even realize?

• 39:39Speaker 02

  Yeah, I think the takeaway for this whole conversation, I hope, is that there are forces that we're not seeing, right? One of which is known as this kind of shadow or this like dark side, even just kind of springboarding from the conversation about shame. A lot of what is contained in our shadow are all of those qualities or attributes about ourself that weren't welcome, that did get us rejection or abandoned or, or shamed or ridiculed or abused in some way, right? We've marked them as, you know, intolerable, unacceptable. They are still part of who we are, but because we've, you know, kind of been told that they are inappropriate in whatever way, we continue to keep them kind of.

• 40:21Speaker 02

  Below the surface, feeling again that if we were to share those aspects of ourself, that we would be shamed and abandoned, just like we once were. And then something else magical that we do with them is we project our shadow onto other people. And so we can tell, but with our reactions, sometimes other people, right? Sometimes the things that bother us about another is the thing that we're kind of desperate to hide or desperately want to see within ourselves.

• 40:50Mayim Bialik?

  Can you give us some examples? Like, is this the same as like the disowned self, the exiled self? Is that what these, because?

• 40:56Speaker 02

  Yeah, this is common to those, similar to those concepts.

• 40:58Mayim Bialik?

  And those are going to depend on the family. Like, so for example, if you're in a family where being loud is not appreciated, right?

• 41:05Speaker 02

  Loud people will be the bane of your existence. What's, oh, they're so rude, so, you know, brass, or whatever it is that you might call that person, too much, right? So we can kind of project loudness onto other people.

• 41:17Mayim Bialik?

  So that's my shadow being projected.

• 41:19Speaker 02

  Right, the things that we are annoyed. For me, my shadow does not like when people can directly assert their needs. It can even be something helpful. I think you're selfish. Who are you? How dare you? You're inconsiderate, another thing I love to, right? Really? Because there's a part of me that desperately wants to be able to be assertive in that way. And I am still learning how to communicate my needs in a way that doesn't come out explosively or not come out at all because of hiding them.

• 41:45Mayim Bialik?

  Well, and I think this is like one of the most helpful kind of guideposts for the work that you do and the work that you share with people. Like, guess what? The way you're interacting with other people, even the things that bother you about other people is actually not about them. And it's not necessarily about acceptance, right? Because some people would say like, oh, you need to be in acceptance and nothing will bother you. But this is about, if you spot it, you've got it. And what part of you?

• 42:12Speaker 02

  Hate the things that you hate in other people about yourself. Or what were you not allowed to express, right? I was recently talking with a family member of mine and we were talking about the different relationships our family has to money because there was none. So when there's poverty, right? You either have people who continue that poverty mindset and adjust it and kind of try and hide it, right? Or you have people who are like, fuck it, I'll just spend it all, right? Like, once it exists. And so you have these two reactions that are both kind of the same thing. I'm afraid that there's not enough, right? And so when you see people, if you're the poverty mindset person who's continued it, people who spend are frivolous and they're disgusting.

• 42:55Speaker 02

  Wasteful because you've disowned the part of yourself that deserves to have your needs met financially, right?

• 43:01Jonathan Cohen?

  Help us leave this conversation with some hope.

• 43:06Speaker 02

  A glimmer of hope.

• 43:07Jonathan Cohen?

  For what life can be like. We've established that it's never going to be the perfect scenario. But give us a sense of what you hope for people to do this work and on the other side, what they can experience.

• 43:20Speaker 02

  Yeah, on the other side of this work is life, so to speak, right? Is a life of connection, of awareness, of joy, sorrow, right? All of these very complicated human emotions, again, that none of us get a guidebook for. It's, that is what is creating this human experience. I think we're all trying to figure out why we're here. And I think to some extent, it's for this reason, right? To have these more tangible experiences, to have an opportunity to learn and grow from another person. I mean, it really is, relationships are mirrors, they're our reflection, right? They bring up parts of us that we didn't know existed, that we can be proud of, and parts of us that we didn't know existed, that we could, you know, kind of shift and change.

• 44:02Speaker 02

  It brings awareness for some of us who aren't certain of who we are and what we're doing, and awareness of who we are and what we want and our desires, which then leads to fulfillment of those desires and purpose and passion. And to be clear, it doesn't have to be lived on a huge, you know, grand stage. Like, you know, we're obviously here doing this more publicly, but. I mean, purpose is just showing up in our own creative action and impacting the lives around us. We become then reconnected to kind of all that is, whatever the language we want to give. But the fact that we are not alone, even those of us that feel so deeply alone, I can't, I remember throughout, up until my 30s, really, I was a little girl, living in New York, feeling alone in a crowded room, no matter who was around

• 44:46Speaker 02

  me at all times, right? So we can reestablish a connection that even if we are living alone, for whatever reason, that we are connected to something beyond ourselves and kind of a transcendental state of just greater, you know, knowing. I do think that that's possible for all of us as we begin the journey. And the final takeaway is, again, there's not a like, too late, it's done, I'm set in stone, even though some of our parents, my dad likes to tell me how he just is how he is, because he's 88 years old now. And we might hear that from some loved ones, though. The reality is, we can truly create, change, and impact, and transform at any time.

• 45:21Mayim Bialik?

  I'm also 88 years old, so I do believe I can change. I highly recommend, and I've already recommended this book to many, many people, because so many of us also were like doing the work, and we're like going to 12-step, and we have therapy, and we're doing somatic work, and we're trying to take the supplement. But honestly, like, this book, it's a workbook. This is the kind of thing we need. This is that you had a life, and you went to school, and you got this degree, but you didn't decide to save it only for yourself. And this book is a way, like, this is it. Purchase this book, download this book. It's a workbook. And if you work through it, treat it like it's your therapy. If you cannot afford therapy,

• 46:03Mayim Bialik?

  we know there's a lot of people who can't, this is what you do in therapy. Treat it like it's serious work. And all of it's in there. Do the questions, do the exercises, learn to calm your vagus nerve down. This is really it. So really, really, it's a fantastic book, and your practice is unbelievable. I also can't believe that you copywrote Holistic Psychologist, and that gets to be your name. It's amazing.

• 46:26Speaker 02

  I know. I couldn't believe it. I know. I know. When I first signed on, I felt like, okay, now the universe is telling me I have to do this, too. Because who would have ever thought that just six years ago, no one was kind of thinking in this way. I mean, it blew my mind, and it was the universe begrudgingly telling me to walk forward.

• 46:42Mayim Bialik?

  It's amazing. Thank you so much, Dr. Nicole LaMara. Thank you so much.

• 46:46Speaker 02

  Thank you both for having me. This is really great.

• 46:51Mayim Bialik?

  I absolutely see this as not even the future of growth. It's the present of growth. You cannot avoid, like you can't. You can try and avoid it, but yeah, you can't avoid all of these patterns. You know, I think of people who are really into cognitive behavioral therapy, which I absolutely believe in and I think it's very useful. But I think in some cases, it really does make sense to say, not that my parents were wrong and not that I'm broken, but to say, oh, this is why that happened. Like when you shared that realization you had, that you were having anger that you even realized was not proportional to the situation,

• 47:36Mayim Bialik?

  for you to be able to say, ah, it's old, you know? And, and I think you've done some healing from that as well. Sometimes just learning about it is actually transformative, you know?

• 47:47Jonathan Cohen?

  Absolutely. And if you're someone who is spiritual, who wants to get in touch with their intuition, who likes to think about consciousness and how the universe works, guess what? Your universe, your individual, personal world is being impacted by this.

• 48:04Mayim Bialik?

  Yes, and I think this is a really, this is a great place to start. And yes, from this leads to being more in touch with yourself, knowing who you are, knowing what your needs are, knowing where you keep getting blocked, and possibly even knowing why jobs aren't working for you, relationships aren't working for you, and why your path isn't working for you. It's literally the path to intuition.

• 48:24Jonathan Cohen?

  It's about knowing how you interpret the world. If you think, oh my gosh, that person is some way, guess what? It's likely the result of something going on inside of you.

• 48:33Mayim Bialik?

  Um, really hope you check out Reparenting the Inner Child. So grateful we finally got to speak to Dr. LePera. I think that's it. We hope you join us on Substack. We've got a really, really great bonus content from this episode where Dr. LePera walks us through.

• 48:50Mayim Bialik?

  Three vagus nerve exercises to try and encourage your body to rewire.

• 48:54Jonathan Cohen?

  Additionally, on a Substack Live, where Mayim and I break down these episodes and expand on the content that we talk about here, we're going to touch on glimmers, a practice that allow you to find little moments of awe in the world that actually activate you on an emotional level, on a biological level, and help you feel more alive. Join us, Mayim Bialik's Breakdown on Substack.

• 49:19Mayim Bialik?

  And from our breakdown to the one we hope you never have, we'll see you next time.