The Best TV Week of the Year, ‘Task’ Episode 3, and ‘The Mandalorian and Grogu’ Trailer Underwhelms

Chris and Andy talk about why this might be the best TV week of the year with the upcoming ‘Alien: Earth’ season finale, the premiere of Sterlin Harjo’s ‘The Lowdown,’ and the return of ‘Slow Horses’ for Season 5 (5:00). Along the way, they react to the trailer for ‘The Mandalorian and Grogu’ (12:00) and the rumored casting of Leonardo DiCaprio in Michael Mann’s highly anticipated follow-up to ‘Heat’ (20:44). Later, they break down the third episode of ‘Task’ (29:05). Subscribe to the Ringer TV YouTube channel here for full episodes of ‘The Watch’ and so much more! Hosts: Chris Ryan and Andy Greenwald Producers: Kaya McMullen and Kai Grady Video Producer: Jon Jones Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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• 2:06Chris Ryan?

  Hello and welcome to The Watch. My name is Chris Ryan. I am an editor at theringer.com and joining me in the studio, he's the guy who spams Mother Love Bone at the State Trooper Bar, it's Andy Greenwald.

• 2:22Andy Greenwald?

  I can't decide-

• 2:22Chris Ryan?

  He's just like me.

• 2:25Andy Greenwald?

  Which bar would I do worse at?

• 2:27Chris Ryan?

  Um, I can't believe that Mother Love Bone showed up on Task last night.

• 2:32Andy Greenwald?

  You can't believe it?

• 2:33Chris Ryan?

  I, we're gonna get into that, we're gonna get into Task, we're gonna talk a little bit about the Mandalorian trailer. Um, we have some chatter about what a huge week of television we have this week, man, it's almost overwhelming. Uh, Greenwald, it's great to see you. Uh, you can email the watch at the watch at spotify.com. You can follow us on Instagram, the watch pod underscore. You can watch us on YouTube, ringer-tv, or watch us on Spotify where I hope you're listening. And, Sunday. Sunday, I imagine it was a rollercoaster of emotions for the kid.

• 3:06Andy Greenwald?

  That's all I wanted to talk to you about, mainly. So we did not, previous week, we did watch the Eagles together.

• 3:13Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 3:13Andy Greenwald?

  Um, and I thought it was good. We had a kind of, um, you know, it was a little bit, it was a little bit like high holy days in an orthodox or conservative temple. Men and women were in separate rooms, and the women had a sort of a crafting thing going on and the men were watching sports. That was okay.

• 3:31Chris Ryan?

  I wouldn't know, but go ahead.

• 3:32Andy Greenwald?

  Um, and, uh, we didn't do that again this week, so we were in our respective domiciles-

• 3:37Chris Ryan?

  Yes.

• 3:37Andy Greenwald?

  -for this game. It was a rollercoaster. Can I ask you something, just between you and me and Kaia and all our friends in the listening community? I seemed okay, right? I didn't seem to-

• 3:47Chris Ryan?

  Last week or this week?

• 3:48Andy Greenwald?

  No, this week, over text. I was, was I like-

• 3:52Chris Ryan?

  You seemed fine.

• 3:53Andy Greenwald?

  Thank you.

• 3:53Chris Ryan?

  Yeah, you seemed fine. Why? Were you fine?

• 3:55Andy Greenwald?

  I was fine.

• 3:56Chris Ryan?

  Okay.

• 3:56Andy Greenwald?

  I real- it's real- Chris, it's really important for me for that you think-

• 4:02Chris Ryan?

  Don't print in the newspaper that I was mad.

• 4:04Andy Greenwald?

  Exactly. I just want you to think that I was okay. I was pretty level-headed. You know, I was like, "Well, this'll be an instructive loss." Then I was like, "Well, it'll be a moral victory." And then I was like, "Oh shit, we just won."

• 4:14Chris Ryan?

  So what did you do after the Eagles beat the Rams on a last-second field goal block return for a touchdown to cover?

• 4:19Andy Greenwald?

  From those around me at the time, including, I imagine, the neighbors, I've been told that a sound emerged from my body that has never before emerged from my body.

• 4:30Chris Ryan?

  A barbaric yelp?

• 4:31Andy Greenwald?

  Here's the thing, though. I think that, um, as a- which camera's on? #FatherOfDaughters. I think it's important not to continue the cycle of really, like, angry sports dads.

• 4:47Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 4:47Andy Greenwald?

  You know?

• 4:47Chris Ryan?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 4:48Andy Greenwald?

  So I definitely try to keep it- I'm less crazy, hopefully, around them than I am with the fellas. But when that happened, I had the first, like, I was ready to be like, "Oh, well, see, it's okay." And that noise seemed to begin in my sternum. And then Jordan Davis blocked it. And then Jordan Davis ran 18.59 miles per hour down the field for the touchdown. And the noise turned into something else. It was kind of like one of those, like, Greek mythological creatures that's like part lion, part eagle, you know? And it was not cool.

• 5:23Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 5:23Andy Greenwald?

  It was not a cool sound. So I really spent the rest of the day living that down.

• 5:28Chris Ryan?

  You're like, "Wasn't that weird when I made that sound?"

• 5:30Andy Greenwald?

  No, the first thing we were like, "Nobody heard that, right?"

• 5:33Chris Ryan?

  Yeah, right.

• 5:33Andy Greenwald?

  Like, that didn't come out of me. But it did. It did. It's been nice to still learn things about ourselves at this age.

• 5:41Chris Ryan?

  I think it's what life's all about, is just a constant journey of discovery. Let's discover some television.

• 5:48Andy Greenwald?

  So no comments on your behavior?

• 5:50Chris Ryan?

  My behavior was fine. I gotta be completely honest. I was working for, like, the middle part of the game where I felt it falling out of reach. I was just like, "I am not gonna watch every play and criticize Matt Breyer." Like, I have, like, other stuff to get done today. And so I was trying to, like, basically, like, get ready for rewatchables on the watch while that was happening. And then as soon as they let the- They uncuffed young Jalen.

• 6:14Andy Greenwald?

  Yeah.

• 6:14Chris Ryan?

  And let him deal. I was like, okay, we're back. I was telling Kai that like at one point, I think I started intimating that I'd be ready to go out for a lovely lunch with my wife. I was like, we could just turn our backs on this.

• 6:25Andy Greenwald?

  You can never say that.

• 6:26Chris Ryan?

  And he was like, okay, let me know. And then I was just like, I don't know why you're dressed. Like, you know, like we're, we're never leaving this house.

• 6:34Andy Greenwald?

  Because I've learned over time.

• 6:35Chris Ryan?

  I'm never leaving this couch because look what amazing things happen when I sit here.

• 6:39Andy Greenwald?

  This spot on the couch.

• 6:40Chris Ryan?

  Yeah, exactly.

• 6:41Andy Greenwald?

  I've learned later in life that it's important never to crack the window. Like, because when we say, you know what, it just might be an early day for me in the NFL.

• 6:49Chris Ryan?

  Yes.

• 6:50Andy Greenwald?

  We say that for ourselves to make ourselves seem normal to ourselves. If someone takes us up on that, like, that's, that's, that's a huge mistake.

• 6:59Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 6:59Andy Greenwald?

  A huge mistake.

• 7:00Chris Ryan?

  This week on television.

• 7:02Andy Greenwald?

  Yeah.

• 7:02Chris Ryan?

  People are going to be busy.

• 7:04Andy Greenwald?

  Yeah.

• 7:04Chris Ryan?

  There is something for everyone. And it's, I sneakily, I think, the best week of the year in the TV year.

• 7:12Andy Greenwald?

  The best week of the year.

• 7:13Chris Ryan?

  So we've got, um, obviously Task aired last night, the beginning of the week. We have.

• 7:19Andy Greenwald?

  It was a good start.

• 7:20Chris Ryan?

  Alien Earth finale. We're all on the edge of our seat to find out what those crazy kids got up to this week. Uh, also on Tuesday night is the release of the first two episodes of The Lowdown on FX, which is Sterling Harjo's return to TV after Reservation Dogs.

• 7:36Andy Greenwald?

  And they're dropping two episodes.

• 7:37Chris Ryan?

  And they're dropping two episodes. We're actually, I'm actually doing an event with Sterling and Ethan Hawke tonight. Uh, and we're going to use the audio from that event, um, where we're screening an episode for Thursday's show. And video. And video.

• 7:49Andy Greenwald?

  I'm sorry I can't join you, but I think it's, we could probably say Ethan Hawke requested that I am not, I not be present.

• 7:55Chris Ryan?

  I don't know why you keep saying that. I thought we all had a great connection with him when he came on for Good Lord Bird.

• 8:00Andy Greenwald?

  We did. We had a great time, but I felt the spark between you guys and like, I don't want to be the third wheel.

• 8:05Chris Ryan?

  We're just two guys who love Rihanna, you know?

• 8:08Chris Ryan?

  What do you want?

• 8:10Andy Greenwald?

  I am sorry, I can't celebrate Rosh Hashanah with you guys.

• 8:13Chris Ryan?

  It's a shame.

• 8:13Andy Greenwald?

  Yeah, those are, those are good people and it's a great show.

• 8:16Chris Ryan?

  And also this week, we have the return of The English Teacher, which comes back with its full second season on the 25th.

• 8:24Andy Greenwald?

  It's so good. It's so good.

• 8:27Chris Ryan?

  Not only that.

• 8:28Andy Greenwald?

  Yeah.

• 8:28Chris Ryan?

  I believe the first two episodes of Slow Horses, season five, go up this week. Damn, it's the best season since the first one.

• 8:36Andy Greenwald?

  Whoa.

• 8:37Chris Ryan?

  I'm serious. They're back. Like, it's a fully, like, like, absolutely, like, everything you would want from Slow Horses is this season.

• 8:45Andy Greenwald?

  This is great.

• 8:45Chris Ryan?

  And then House of Guinness, which comes out Thursday night, Friday morning.

• 8:50Andy Greenwald?

  That's also this week?

• 8:51Chris Ryan?

  That's all this week. So there's two full seasons dropping, and I have to say.

• 8:55Andy Greenwald?

  Yeah.

• 8:55Chris Ryan?

  The fucking morning show is really good this season, and the second episode is awesome.

• 9:01Andy Greenwald?

  Wait, like, awesome?

• 9:02Chris Ryan?

  Not awesome, like, oh my god, this is like Carrie and Brody in a cabin awesome, but like, that's like my only.

• 9:09Andy Greenwald?

  That is your greatest.

• 9:10Chris Ryan?

  My only reference point is Homeland.

• 9:14Chris Ryan?

  Sterling, was Homeland in your mind when you were making the lineup?

• 9:17Andy Greenwald?

  Sterling, you cast Tracy Letts in the pilot of your show. Did you know he was on Homeland S3? Then walk away.

• 9:26Chris Ryan?

  So what a week. What would you say you're most excited for? I guess you've seen some of the lowdown.

• 9:31Andy Greenwald?

  I've seen, I've watched the lowdown, I've watched English Teacher. I've not yet watched Slow Horses. I, I would say that's more of a Apple Plus screener site issue than a me issue. I've tried.

• 9:43Chris Ryan?

  Okay.

• 9:45Andy Greenwald?

  But of these shows, what am I most excited about? Well, I think I'm excited about the lowdown because I have dreamed of having a show like this back on television.

• 9:54Chris Ryan?

  Tell people a little bit about it.

• 9:55Andy Greenwald?

  Uh, okay, well, no spoilers, obviously, but when, um, when Sterling was on this podcast, really, the scheme of things, not that long ago, he said that his next project would be, had a different title at the time, but he was making a, uh, down-on-his-heels P.I. show starring Ethan Hawke set in his beloved hometown of Tulsa, and his number one North Star guiding light for the show was Robert Altman's The Long Goodbye. And he has done this. Hang the banner.

• 10:23Chris Ryan?

  He really did that.

• 10:24Andy Greenwald?

  Mission accomplished. In all of the best ways, in all of the, oh my god, I can't believe they really let him get away with this ways. He has gathered up, I would say, a hall of fame.

• 10:35Chris Ryan?

  Like, close to two dozen.

• 10:37Andy Greenwald?

  Of just those guys.

• 10:38Chris Ryan?

  But also just, people that I have never met before, or never seen before, who come on and do two scenes, and you're like, well, I'll follow you anywhere, brother.

• 10:47Andy Greenwald?

  Yes, or like, you know, Macon Blair is a filmmaker, is really talented, friends of Nick.

• 10:51Chris Ryan?

  Directs a couple of episodes of Lowdown, yeah.

• 10:53Andy Greenwald?

  He was on Reservation Dogs, and then he plays a character on the show that, within minutes of introducing him in the pilot, I'm like, I cannot wait to spend the next six years with these guys.

• 11:01Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 11:03Andy Greenwald?

  It's an absolute, for me, I mean, it's an absolute delight.

• 11:05Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 11:06Andy Greenwald?

  I loved it.

• 11:06Chris Ryan?

  It's no perfect, um, this is one of my favorite Hawk performances in recent memory. Because I think, you know, is he kind of flits between mainstream blockbuster movies, often genre movies, where he's, you know, in action films and horror movies, and then kind of really exploring the studio space when it comes to some of his more independent choices, whether it's stuff that he's directing, stuff that he's appearing in. One thing I really, really respect about him is that when one of his longtime buddies makes a movie, he's in the film.

• 11:40Andy Greenwald?

  Oh, yeah.

• 11:40Chris Ryan?

  Like, Rick Gomez makes a movie, Ethan Hawke is in it, you know what I mean? Like, and he works with his family, it's just a very impressive way of doing things. Um, but this has some qualities where it's both the wild-eyed, idealist, romantic dreamer side of Ethan Hawke, but also the incredibly approachable, everyday guy that he is capable of being.

• 12:08Andy Greenwald?

  Who just loves to act, who loves to show up. I would also say, and we'll talk more about it later in the week, um, and throughout the season, I hope. When we have talked about, like, dream projects from our tours over the last few years, it tends to be people being like, I can't believe they let me play in the Star Wars sandbox. Or, finally, the keys to the xenomorph are handed over, you know, because that's the nature of the business. Sterling leveraged the success of Reservation Dogs into making a show that is at once a love letter to his hometown and honestly, a love letter to the things that he loves.

• 12:42Chris Ryan?

  Yes.

• 12:43Andy Greenwald?

  So there is a character who wears a hat, a lot like Sterling wears, who owns a used bookshop that stays open despite itself on a street next to a lawyer who's his best friend and a diner that has great coffee all night. And I'm like, this is the dream of any writer and filmmaker to be like, I want to make a show about the things that I love in the space that I know and have it. But the trick is, he makes it feel welcoming and not just someone telling you about a dream he had one time.

• 13:09Chris Ryan?

  Yeah, I think a lot of that comes from where it's shot and his familiarity and his love for his city. And there are moments, this is a very like ornate, like multi-layered, mystery conspiracy show about one man up against an institution or force that is almost beyond his comprehension. But it takes time to have these beats, like a guy walking into a used bookstore and being like, I'm home, or a guy getting food and like, they're like, this is good food.

• 13:40Andy Greenwald?

  This food tastes good.

• 13:41Chris Ryan?

  Like these like real life beats that give the show like a ton of depth and

• 13:46Andy Greenwald?

  And heart.

• 13:47Chris Ryan?

  And heart, yeah, you're right. I can't wait to talk about it. We'll hit that on Thursday along with Alien.

• 13:52Andy Greenwald?

  I would also say having English Teacher back. I watched two and I had to hold back from watching more because it's, I just think that show is so funny.

• 13:59Chris Ryan?

  I can't wait to check it out. Speaking of the Star Wars sandbox.

• 14:03Andy Greenwald?

  Hmm.

• 14:05Chris Ryan?

  Many, many, many people are asking, Andy, why is your silence so deafening on the Mandalorian and Grogu trailer?

• 14:12Andy Greenwald?

  You mean in the hour since it dropped?

• 14:14Chris Ryan?

  Um, what did you think?

• 14:18Andy Greenwald?

  You're so excited to talk about this.

• 14:21Chris Ryan?

  Little minute and a half taste of what Filoni and Fabs have been cooking up?

• 14:25Andy Greenwald?

  I would say, okay, I have two headline takes and then I'd like to cede the sandbox to you. One take, these are, these are definitely like, these are more modest, not barbed takes because I do have other thoughts that maybe

• 14:39Chris Ryan?

  You don't want to get aggregated.

• 14:40Andy Greenwald?

  I don't want to get aggro. Yeah, Kai is watching, she leaned in.

• 14:44Chris Ryan?

  Kai of the Hut getting ready to cut up another viral take.

• 14:50Chris Ryan?

  Angie vs. the Mouse House, round four. Go ahead.

• 14:54Andy Greenwald?

  If Bob Iger thinks the release of this trailer is gonna silence the... I think that, on the one hand, like, it's a kid's adventure movie. And that is actually what influenced... I mean, that is what George Lucas said he wanted to do with Phantom Menace. That is, you know, that even like the kind of Indiana Jones slash Flash Gordon font at the end speaks to the influences that George Lucas had originally for the trilogy before it became nerd rage bait for grown men. And there's nothing wrong with that. There's an audience for that, and it could be fun.

• 15:27Chris Ryan?

  We'll see.

• 15:28Andy Greenwald?

  My main take, though, is that Disney... This is chickens coming home to roost in the sense that this looks like a fun sizzle reel for a new season of television on the Disney Plus service. There was absolutely nothing in this that made it seem cinematic.

• 15:45Chris Ryan?

  It's a teaser and they didn't have any dialogue, not that this is a dialogue-rich show in the first place.

• 15:51Andy Greenwald?

  Correct.

• 15:51Chris Ryan?

  But I agree with you that it is strange that this is a show probably, I would imagine, I do not have the data in front of me, that has had, if not a declining viewership, a declining sort of Q rating.

• 16:06Andy Greenwald?

  Well, also, it just hasn't been around.

• 16:08Chris Ryan?

  It hasn't been around for a couple of years.

• 16:10Andy Greenwald?

  And one of its seasons wasn't even it.

• 16:11Chris Ryan?

  Well, yeah, it was the Book of Boba Fett that turned into a Mandalorian season 2.5 or 3.5 or whatever.

• 16:20Chris Ryan?

  And so there, it's just a teaser. I'm not trying to like condemn it. But there is a feeling of, do you remember that scene in Armageddon? When they first bring Bruce Willis into NASA?

• 16:30Andy Greenwald?

  Oh, yeah.

• 16:31Chris Ryan?

  And they're like, "You guys, we need you to drill on this asteroid to save the Earth." And he's like, "This is the best you could come up with." Like, all the guys at NASA, like, "This is the plan. Are you sure?"

• 16:41Andy Greenwald?

  Yeah.

• 16:42Chris Ryan?

  And that's kind of how I felt watching that. I was like, "Oh, yeah, you guys got a hut and..."

• 16:48Andy Greenwald?

  Played by Jeremy Allen White.

• 16:49Chris Ryan?

  Some giant snowbots, like, uh...

• 16:51Andy Greenwald?

  It's like the same, first of all, like... Can we see, like, how hard is it to get insurance on those giant walkers for the Empire these days?

• 17:00Chris Ryan?

  Yeah, I see.

• 17:00Andy Greenwald?

  Because-

• 17:00Chris Ryan?

  Are those AT-ATs?

• 17:02Andy Greenwald?

  No, those are the two, those are the two-footed ones.

• 17:04Chris Ryan?

  And is that, are they, do you, do you refer to them as AT-ATs?

• 17:07Andy Greenwald?

  We've done-

• 17:08Chris Ryan?

  Or AT-ATs?

• 17:08Andy Greenwald?

  We've litigated this.

• 17:09Chris Ryan?

  Have we? Because I feel like I called them AT-ATs when I was a kid.

• 17:12Andy Greenwald?

  I did too.

• 17:13Chris Ryan?

  And now I've been harshly corrected by the community.

• 17:16Andy Greenwald?

  Yes, the community was-

• 17:17Chris Ryan?

  I got a community note.

• 17:21Andy Greenwald?

  That hap-

• 17:21Chris Ryan?

  But I can't remember what it was supposed to be.

• 17:23Andy Greenwald?

  That happened to both of us, I think.

• 17:24Chris Ryan?

  Okay.

• 17:25Andy Greenwald?

  On the playgrounds of Philadelphia. Separate playgrounds, because we didn't know each other. We were both like-

• 17:31Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 17:31Andy Greenwald?

  You know, just talking up AT-ATs and asking to go to the water fountain.

• 17:34Chris Ryan?

  That's right. I was running numbers.

• 17:36Andy Greenwald?

  You probably were.

• 17:37Chris Ryan?

  You were, you were observing the high holidays.

• 17:41Andy Greenwald?

  Please, not on Yom Kippur. Uh, I, I, yeah, I agree with you. Look, look, they've, there's, there's also a, an interpretation of this where I'm like, this is actually the end of an art form in the sense that, look, here, Kaya, take this one. I'm gonna put it on the T for you. Because this is a Star Wars, they, Star Wars, they took a couple of years off.

• 18:03Chris Ryan?

  Uh huh.

• 18:04Andy Greenwald?

  Kathy took a couple of years off to really like, kinda 4D chess it. And they came back with a movie that could be a TV show that was filmed entirely in front of a volume, starring a random person in a suit and a puppet.

• 18:18Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 18:18Andy Greenwald?

  And a bunch of cartoon Muppets. Like, and they're like, let's see. Do you know what I mean? Like, there is very, very little here that one could, Sean Fantasy Voice, call cinema. Okay? Like, charitably. Uh- It doesn't mean that there is no place for this. I think that, that though, in the conversation about Lucasfilm, about Disney, about Star Wars, that this is what they have when they're, it, it, it's impossible to distinguish what makes this different from a TV show. And the only other thing we have going for the larger story, now that Andor is done, is one shot of Ryan Gosling hanging out on the ocean with a kid.

• 18:57Chris Ryan?

  Which is not in the stars.

• 18:59Andy Greenwald?

  Which is not in the stars, and they do not appear to be at war.

• 19:02Chris Ryan?

  Um-

• 19:04Chris Ryan?

  I was kind of trying to figure out why this came out on a Monday morning.

• 19:08Andy Greenwald?

  Do you feel like Disney needed to change the narrative?

• 19:10Chris Ryan?

  I was wondering if perhaps, you know, Sarah McLachlan and the Loth crew turning their backs on Disney last night, the weekend. Look, I imagine that this was like, we're gonna put this out at some point. But this is like a strange way to release the teaser to the movie that you're kind of banking your next summer on, right? If that's in fact what they're doing, maybe they have some animated movie I don't know about.

• 19:35Andy Greenwald?

  I genuinely, I genuinely don't understand what their internal perceptions or anticipation for this movie, what they are.

• 19:43Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 19:43Andy Greenwald?

  Like, they could, they could be underselling it intentionally, knowing that there is a built-in ceiling because it is not, it's not expanding the tent, let's say. And then maybe that speaks to a future Star Wars cinematic release schedule where they spent a lot of money on Starfighter, and then they released like smaller, could have been TV shows, just to keep the.

• 20:07Chris Ryan?

  Keep the subs?

• 20:07Andy Greenwald?

  Keep the IP humming, keep the, well, but not the subs, because this isn't even on the service. So I, I find, I find it a little confusing, for sure.

• 20:15Chris Ryan?

  I was wondering whether or not.

• 20:17Andy Greenwald?

  Have you seen the poster?

• 20:19Chris Ryan?

  I have. I thought it was.

• 20:20Andy Greenwald?

  It's fun.

• 20:20Chris Ryan?

  Sure. Do you think this movie would do better if they called it Grogu Demon Slayer?

• 20:27Andy Greenwald?

  Apparently.

• 20:28Chris Ryan?

  K-pop Mandalorian?

• 20:29Andy Greenwald?

  Yes, keep, keep pitching.

• 20:31Chris Ryan?

  I keep getting, every Monday, I get this email called the wake up, it's from the Anklar Sean, this guy Sean McNulty writes it. And, you know, as the box office returns and it analysis, and every week, it feels like the number one movie in the world is something called Demon something.

• 20:46Andy Greenwald?

  Yeah.

• 20:47Chris Ryan?

  And it's like $500 million this weekend. I'm like, I don't know what this is.

• 20:52Andy Greenwald?

  It's almost as if there's a crown swell of desire to slay monsters and demons.

• 20:56Chris Ryan?

  Maybe.

• 20:56Andy Greenwald?

  In the zeitgeist, I don't know.

• 20:57Chris Ryan?

  Maybe.

• 20:58Andy Greenwald?

  Do, uh, do you have any, look.

• 21:02Andy Greenwald?

  As someone who tried and sadly failed to have baby Yoda on the podcast a few years ago.

• 21:09Chris Ryan?

  Somehow my emails went unanswered, yeah.

• 21:11Andy Greenwald?

  Do you have any concern whatsoever that we are perhaps going a little hard on?

• 21:18Chris Ryan?

  Oh, that we're showing the baby too much?

• 21:20Andy Greenwald?

  Is this a, look, I'll just speak my own truth. Couple decades ago, a show called Family Matters premiered and I was like, hey, it's Reginald Vel Johnson, the co-star of Die Hard. He's just a working cop who has a family and I'm like, what better way to wind down a tough week of third grade or whatever?

• 21:39Chris Ryan?

  I imagine you like sidling up to a grown man at a bat mitzvah, you know, and you're a kid.

• 21:45Andy Greenwald?

  Yeah.

• 21:46Chris Ryan?

  And you're just doing the TV Guide thing. You're like, have you seen? Die Hard's Reginald Vel Johnson is making the leap to the small screen?

• 21:53Andy Greenwald?

  Making the leap, yes, making the small step down. But my point is, I was like, this is an enjoyable family sitcom. Then Urkel shows up and then it becomes the Urkel Show.

• 22:03Chris Ryan?

  It's pandemonium.

• 22:04Andy Greenwald?

  It succeeded.

• 22:05Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 22:06Andy Greenwald?

  Did I feel like Family Matters lost its heart that day and lost its way? I did.

• 22:09Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 22:10Andy Greenwald?

  Perhaps my first hot take in the TV space. Is this an Urkel situation? Which, to be clear, would mean it would become very successful.

• 22:19Chris Ryan?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 22:20Andy Greenwald?

  But I wouldn't like it.

• 22:21Chris Ryan?

  I, I don't know, really. I think at a certain point, you have to give the people what they want. You know what I mean? Some, I turned pretty, learned that.

• 22:31Chris Ryan?

  I think Mandalorian learned that it was not actually this monosyllabic Samurai that people were tuning in for.

• 22:38Andy Greenwald?

  Right.

• 22:39Chris Ryan?

  But the cutest thing that ever lived.

• 22:41Andy Greenwald?

  Wow.

• 22:42Chris Ryan?

  That's just it, man. Speaking of giving people what they want, can I just bounce something off you here?

• 22:46Andy Greenwald?

  This is what we're here for.

• 22:47Chris Ryan?

  Leonardo DiCaprio is apparently going to be in Heat 2?

• 22:50Andy Greenwald?

  Yeah, we talked about that, right?

• 22:52Chris Ryan?

  Did we really get into it?

• 22:53Andy Greenwald?

  No, we can get into it more. So the timeline of this is Michael Mann writes or co-writes the book Heat 2.

• 23:00Chris Ryan?

  Yes.

• 23:00Andy Greenwald?

  And then it becomes very clear through word and deed and gossip that making this into a film.

• 23:06Chris Ryan?

  It's almost like a proof of concept for a sequel, yeah.

• 23:08Andy Greenwald?

  But he spent the last few years basically behind the scenes being like, this is my next work. This is, has to happen. There are all these rumors about potential casting, about collaborators. There was all this talk that like the bear season four shoot was like in the background. All of those actors were like weapons training to be in Heat 2.

• 23:26Chris Ryan?

  There were rumors.

• 23:27Andy Greenwald?

  And then there was a, then the next rumor was Apple or whomever was balking at the price tag. That Michael Mann, Warner was right, who had the rights. There was $200 million, no go. But that if Leonardo DiCaprio agreed to join the cast.

• 23:40Chris Ryan?

  Yeah, I think that there was like a Bellany or something, somebody wrote a column where it was like, it would need Leonardo DiCaprio to warrant this price tag.

• 23:47Andy Greenwald?

  Which would also then maybe bring on Apple as a co-investor potentially.

• 23:51Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 23:51Andy Greenwald?

  Even though you would, you know this, I don't know this, is DiCaprio older now than De Niro was when he played Neil in the original? Not that that matters anymore.

• 24:01Chris Ryan?

  I think he is, but also maybe has taken better care of his skin than Robert De Niro did leading up to Heat. So you can kind of stretch it a little bit.

• 24:12Andy Greenwald?

  Okay. But anyway, now it's been announced.

• 24:14Chris Ryan?

  It has not really been announced. It's been like.

• 24:16Andy Greenwald?

  Real was like, this is a go.

• 24:17Chris Ryan?

  And other places have reported a bit on it, but it's, uh, Mann did an appearance in, uh, Busan at the film festival over the weekend. And was like, I, I am getting ready. I am budgeting. I am in pre-pro. We would like to shoot next year. That being said.

• 24:35Andy Greenwald?

  Yeah.

• 24:36Chris Ryan?

  Because, and when I say this to people, quote unquote, I am saying it to me. I'm saying it to me to temper my expectations.

• 24:42Andy Greenwald?

  I appreciate that.

• 24:43Chris Ryan?

  And to get ready for like some, some bumps in the road. I just want to point out that there has also been another filmmaker that I love, Martin Scorsese. And it's been like, what's Martin Scorsese doing after Killers of the Flower Moon? Like, when is this, when is this, he's gonna make another movie? And is he gonna make a Frank Sinatra movie? Is he gonna make a Jesus movie? Is he gonna make, there was a full-on, full-court press announcement that he was making a Hawaii gangster movie. Last like a month ago.

• 25:09Andy Greenwald?

  With The Rock.

• 25:09Chris Ryan?

  With The Rock and Emily Blunt. And it was like, this is happening. This is Martin Scorsese's. It's like Casino in Hawaii.

• 25:17Andy Greenwald?

  Lual Casino.

• 25:18Chris Ryan?

  Yes. And it was like, go, go, go. And now Dwayne Johnson's probably gonna get nominated for.

• 25:23Andy Greenwald?

  Smashing Machine.

• 25:24Chris Ryan?

  Yeah, for an Oscar. And it was like, it's like, this is rolling downhill. This is happening. And then last week, kind of quiet as kept, it was like Martin Scorsese has found his next movie. It's a thriller with Jennifer Lawrence and Leonardo DiCaprio. Everybody was like, Leonardo DiCaprio has this goatee and all this, all these one battle after another promo stuff. He's must be getting ready to play Neil, like they're doing it.

• 25:46Andy Greenwald?

  Well, goatees notoriously take a long time to grow.

• 25:49Chris Ryan?

  For me, it's like all of COVID, I couldn't even get there. And no one cared. No one was like, cool mustache. And it was your fault because cameras don't pick up nuance, but you could have seen it and you could have been like, dude, you look good. And you didn't do it.

• 26:03Andy Greenwald?

  You do look good, but I didn't know what you were doing. I didn't know what was going on.

• 26:07Chris Ryan?

  I was just expecting more from you, you know?

• 26:09Andy Greenwald?

  Wow. I did not think that's where our conversation about Heat 2 would go, but it is a personal subject for you. So bring your own heat.

• 26:17Chris Ryan?

  I'm trying to temper my expectations and, and protect myself from being hurt because lots of stuff happens in this crazy town called Hollywood. And, you know, the way that things get announced is often not actually in sync with where they are in development or where they are in shooting. Often you'll see like, Rosemary DeWitt has joined this cast and it's like, Rosemary DeWitt shot her part.

• 26:39Andy Greenwald?

  Oh, that's like, nobody wants this season to add Seth Rogen to cast. I'm like, that wrapped months ago.

• 26:44Chris Ryan?

  Yeah, right. So I think that really what we're talking about here is just like, fingers crossed. I, I, I note with interest that he has the goatee. I note with interest that they have now pretty much, you know, like if it's Driver as somehow as Pacino.

• 27:03Andy Greenwald?

  Are they, are they gonna do the thing where they like film him in like the reverse Hagrid? Where like, he's just half the size he actually is?

• 27:12Chris Ryan?

  It's like, it's literally like, honey, I shrunk Adam Driver.

• 27:15Andy Greenwald?

  Instead of an apple box, they dig a small apple box level of inches below.

• 27:20Chris Ryan?

  Um, and then I don't know what's going on with the possibility of the Chris sequel element of Heat 2.

• 27:28Andy Greenwald?

  Again, for the normies, the book picks up, it's two storylines. There's a prequel part about Neil.

• 27:35Chris Ryan?

  In Chicago.

• 27:35Andy Greenwald?

  In Chicago.

• 27:36Chris Ryan?

  With Vincent.

• 27:37Andy Greenwald?

  With Vincent, not like with him, like in a cohabitation.

• 27:40Chris Ryan?

  Circling each other like birds, you know?

• 27:43Andy Greenwald?

  Absolutely. Classic birds.

• 27:45Chris Ryan?

  Classic bird thing.

• 27:45Andy Greenwald?

  Remember the scene where birds go to a diner together? And everyone's like, finally, these birds are sharing a table.

• 27:50Chris Ryan?

  Do you want to put it in my mouth?

• 27:52Andy Greenwald?

  That's exactly what they say.

• 27:53Chris Ryan?

  And then there's a sequel element that is Chris after the events of Heat.

• 27:57Andy Greenwald?

  That's Val Kilmer.

• 27:58Chris Ryan?

  Yeah, going, I believe, to the like, the triple frontier area, area and like working security for a triad.

• 28:05Andy Greenwald?

  Two questions. One, um, this is, I mean, Austin Butler was born to do that part, right? Like, just that, that's.

• 28:11Chris Ryan?

  Yes.

• 28:12Andy Greenwald?

  Two, at this point, when you go to quote, "the triple frontier area," is it like going to the four corners in the US? Where there's just like little shops advertising your chance?

• 28:22Chris Ryan?

  Welcome to the triple frontier.

• 28:23Andy Greenwald?

  Like, do a little narco-terrorism while you're here, or do you want to like? Everyone's going there these days.

• 28:29Chris Ryan?

  Oh, God. When are they gonna make the triple frontier shared universe?

• 28:32Andy Greenwald?

  When are they gonna make triple frontier two, six frontiers or something, fourth frontier?

• 28:36Chris Ryan?

  But like Night of the Soldado and have like the Brolin character from Sicario, all like, all the guys together? I will say for true man-men, we are also tracking with interest Joseph Kaczynski and Dan Gilroy's Miami Vice reboot.

• 28:51Andy Greenwald?

  We are all interested in this.

• 28:52Chris Ryan?

  And the dream casting of that being Austin Butler and Aaron Pierre and.

• 28:57Andy Greenwald?

  Do we want that?

• 29:00Chris Ryan?

  I don't know.

• 29:01Andy Greenwald?

  I don't know either.

• 29:02Chris Ryan?

  I don't, Joseph Kaczynski frankly doesn't really miss. Like it, it may not be Hamlet, but it's gonna look fucking cool.

• 29:10Andy Greenwald?

  And you get a Gilroy on the script at this point?

• 29:13Chris Ryan?

  Emmy winning.

• 29:14Andy Greenwald?

  I'm Gilroy agnostic.

• 29:15Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 29:16Andy Greenwald?

  All respect to Tony, just could be John, could be Rose, I don't care. Get me a Gilroy on it. I'm very excited about that.

• 29:23Chris Ryan?

  Do you have anything that in your life that you feel like is your heat too? The thing you can't wait for?

• 29:29Andy Greenwald?

  For it to happen?

• 29:29Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 29:30Andy Greenwald?

  When you grow a beard again? I have been tracking trades. Like I think one day it could happen, but you never know when it's gonna pop off or pop out.

• 29:41Andy Greenwald?

  I.

• 29:41Chris Ryan?

  What if I, what if I did like the turkey hair transplant?

• 29:48Chris Ryan?

  But I wouldn't.

• 29:49Andy Greenwald?

  That's it.

• 29:49Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 29:50Andy Greenwald?

  That's it.

• 29:50Chris Ryan?

  The Wayne Rooney, but it's just for a cool mustache.

• 29:55Andy Greenwald?

  Yeah.

• 29:56Chris Ryan?

  I just have like Tom Selleck Magnum BI mustache.

• 29:59Andy Greenwald?

  I think it would be amazing. We would all support you.

• 30:01Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 30:01Andy Greenwald?

  I think that just from the, one thing I will say for sure from having worked in and around this town is that movies are absolute chaos and no movies are happening until the second they hit roll.

• 30:17Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 30:17Andy Greenwald?

  Hit roll. See, it's classic movie talk. Hit roll, guys. We got the actor. No, but like the deals coming together, like everything is seat of, seat of your pants until you're suddenly there. And things have fallen apart at the 11th hour and things have come together at the 11th and a half hour. So I wouldn't worry so much about Scorsese saying he's doing this, that it's somehow gonna preclude DiCaprio doing something else.

• 30:36Chris Ryan?

  I'm sure you're right.

• 30:37Andy Greenwald?

  He could shave, he could go quick trip to Istanbul, have a new face beard put on.

• 30:41Chris Ryan?

  The only, the only thing with Marty and Michael, both men getting up there in years.

• 30:46Andy Greenwald?

  Oh, you're worried about the clock?

• 30:47Chris Ryan?

  Time is of the essence.

• 30:48Andy Greenwald?

  This is, you know what though? There's one thing we've learned recently. This absolutely is a country for old men.

• 30:54Chris Ryan?

  That's true.

• 30:54Andy Greenwald?

  Like.

• 30:55Chris Ryan?

  Good for, it's good news for us.

• 30:56Andy Greenwald?

  That was, that title was not.

• 30:58Chris Ryan?

  We got a long runway still to play with.

• 31:00Andy Greenwald?

  It's gonna be great.

• 31:02Chris Ryan?

  All right, let's take a quick break. We'll come back. We'll talk about task.

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• 33:33Chris Ryan?

  All right, we are back. Task, episode three. Nobody's Stronger Than Forgiveness. Written by Brad Ingallsby, directed by Sally Richardson Whitfield, who has become,

• 33:46Chris Ryan?

  who's the guy who did, Tim Van Patten, who was always like the HBO in-house, like,

• 33:50Andy Greenwald?

  Yeah.

• 33:50Chris Ryan?

  nailed Band of Brothers and Deadwood and-

• 33:52Andy Greenwald?

  And Mylott was like that a little bit, too.

• 33:53Chris Ryan?

  Yeah, Mylott. She's worked on Winning Time, Gilded Age, EPs on both those shows, I believe, and it does a great job with this episode. First major, major set piece, I think, it's fair to say. Well, I guess the robbery in the first episode.

• 34:07Andy Greenwald?

  But she did, there were some beautiful touches that really split the difference between, like aesthetic show-off-y director stuff and storytelling. Like, there was a moment when we meet, what's his name, Freddie, for the first time?

• 34:19Chris Ryan?

  Yep.

• 34:20Andy Greenwald?

  And we meet him-

• 34:21Chris Ryan?

  Going through like the war in of like the kitchen and then the second, the ADU thing, yeah.

• 34:26Andy Greenwald?

  It's a beautiful shot that was not calling attention to itself, but really, really drew us further into the story. It's these little details that add up. I loved it.

• 34:33Chris Ryan?

  I want to start by, well, first of all, I thought this was a great episode.

• 34:36Andy Greenwald?

  This was a great episode.

• 34:37Chris Ryan?

  I want to highlight two scenes to start with. First, we kind of skipped over her when we first were talking about the show, but Tuso and Bedu's performance in the interrogation of Shelley and her anecdote, her monologue about her own experience with domestic violence. And even watching this show, you're just kind of like, oh, it's interesting because, you know, Brandis tells her, go in there and get close to her. And has no idea, you know, I imagine that this is what she's gonna do, that she's gonna open up and make herself vulnerable, but I thought her performance was really powerful in that. And I gotta talk to you about what is my favorite scene of the year.

• 35:16Andy Greenwald?

  Yes, sure.

• 35:17Chris Ryan?

  Which is Lizzie and Grasso at the State Trooper Bar.

• 35:20Andy Greenwald?

  Credible.

• 35:21Chris Ryan?

  Bruce Springsteen into Mother Love Bone. Please drop a pin in this fucking bar for me.

• 35:28Andy Greenwald?

  DJ CR on the decks.

• 35:30Chris Ryan?

  So I can go. And I would like to just, you, I'm gonna give you a statement, you say whether you agree or disagree.

• 35:36Andy Greenwald?

  All right.

• 35:36Chris Ryan?

  Allison Oliver-

• 35:38Andy Greenwald?

  Yes, here we go.

• 35:38Chris Ryan?

  Is to drunk Philly girl acting what Daniel Day-Lewis is to Abraham and Lincoln.

• 35:43Andy Greenwald?

  I think that's, I think that's setting the bar too low.

• 35:45Chris Ryan?

  It's an understatement.

• 35:46Andy Greenwald?

  I think she is to Philly drunk girl acting what Daniel Day-Lewis is to acting. Like, there is a moment, there are plenty of moments on this episode, in this episode that I want to call out, that I want to celebrate, including the beautiful filming of my high school hangout, the Lanark Diner.

• 36:05Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 36:07Andy Greenwald?

  But, there is a moment when, what's the dialogue, when Lizzie says,

• 36:15Andy Greenwald?

  she says like, you know, DJ not getting any ass in Nova, or whatever, and he's just like, well, it's kind of true these days, and he looks away, and her face lights up.

• 36:24Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 36:25Andy Greenwald?

  And I was like, this is an Emmy moment. This is like, everything in that smile and in her eyes, that is an actor who is vibrating with, on the frequency of art and yingling in a way that speaks to my soul.

• 36:38Chris Ryan?

  There's also the second, the point at the conversation when he, I think when he kind of, what she thinks is that he has noticed that she is an outcast among her fellow, fellow trooper, and he's like, yeah, I forgot I have to do something after like, three yinglings and shots.

• 36:53Andy Greenwald?

  He's hiding it well.

• 36:54Chris Ryan?

  He's doing well, he's handling his booze well. And her reaction is, but I just bought a new pack.

• 37:00Andy Greenwald?

  Did you?

• 37:01Chris Ryan?

  I was like.

• 37:02Andy Greenwald?

  Was that like, sing to me in your voice, American?

• 37:03Chris Ryan?

  That is the point on Love is Blind, when I kneel. That is the point where it's just like, what do you want from me?

• 37:12Chris Ryan?

  And I'll give it.

• 37:15Chris Ryan?

  I can't tell you what happened when Chloe Dancer came on in the bar. I just, I seriously don't know if I have ever been in a bar where Chloe Dancer came on, but it's so, it's so beautiful to have like, the piano part, as like, she's going through this like, experience of trying to keep up her sort of steely exterior, even though her life is spinning out of control and she's just had this giant fuck up at work. Just an awesome scene. And it's really what I think Inglesby does best is, it's not necessarily the crime, I've seen some people comment like, this mystery is kind of unraveled already, like, it's, it's about like, the people who are caught up in it.

• 37:53Andy Greenwald?

  I, I want to talk about one of- Brad, we can call him Brad. One of his superpowers is a writer.

• 38:01Chris Ryan?

  Or Inglesby, if you want to keep it formal. Mr. Inglesby, if you want to write for the New York Times.

• 38:05Andy Greenwald?

  I think he has a particular set of skills as a writer that are very impressive. And one of them, I think we'll spend more time on, which is just his sense of scaffolding and architecture and how he builds a season and how he pays off tension while moving the story forward in ways that are very, very subtle and very, very artful. But you mentioned it already, so I think we should focus first on something that he does that is particularly exceptional, which is something that in the wrong hands is one of the worst and least rewarding crutches of a mid-writer. The hero ball ISO play where a character introduces him or herself with a self-definitional

• 38:45Andy Greenwald?

  monologue that has to at once, you know, completely draw the attention of everyone actually in the room.

• 38:52Chris Ryan?

  Are you talking about Freddie or Aaliyah?

• 38:52Andy Greenwald?

  Freddie or Aaliyah. There's two of them in this episode, and there's been a series of them. He is god-tier at this, at writing these monologues and casting them so that they actually feel lived in and less like a ball stopper being like, "Thank you for visiting me. I'm here to say something that I would have said anyway into my mirror, but it's convenient that you happen to be here." Elvis Nalasco is the actor who plays Freddie, and that also is just a masterclass in controlling heat while cooking.

• 39:24Chris Ryan?

  We got a lot of emails about whether or not he pronounced Lancaster right.

• 39:26Andy Greenwald?

  He did not, but...

• 39:28Chris Ryan?

  Do you want to go into how it is properly enunciated?

• 39:31Andy Greenwald?

  No, because here's the thing. We are so deep in the weeds now that if we get it slightly wrong, or if we say it in a way that it's not said in Newtown Square or Upper Darby, no, we're doomed. You know what I mean? Forget about how they say it in Brumall.

• 39:44Chris Ryan?

  You feel like we're throwing a no-hitter that we can't possibly afford.

• 39:48Andy Greenwald?

  We cannot.

• 39:49Chris Ryan?

  To you guys who often need to Google, like, what day it is.

• 39:53Andy Greenwald?

  Or how many episodes there are in the season.

• 39:55Chris Ryan?

  In the middle of the show, yeah, okay.

• 39:56Andy Greenwald?

  But I thought that, like, the... The words that Brad Inglesby gives him in this scene are compelling, they're captivating, they're a little bit fucked, they're funny, but it's communicating something. It's giving a full life to someone who I imagine we'll see this character again, but we might not. Like in the same way that Ray, who, do you have the actor who plays Ray?

• 40:19Chris Ryan?

  Yes, it is Peter Patricos, who is also a junkie on Dope Thief, but has done, is like a working lifelong character actor and I don't know.

• 40:34Andy Greenwald?

  He's astonishing.

• 40:34Chris Ryan?

  Like.

• 40:35Andy Greenwald?

  He's so good.

• 40:36Chris Ryan?

  Just the fact that they were like, he refs men's rec league basketball and have him in his like, his stripes and his Foot Locker outfit is just so perfect and like, just, you know everything about him and his wife Shelley, that he's a piece of shit, that she's scared of him, that he's supposed to be on the straight and narrow, that his two kids are drugged out on video games, and that he has been waiting for somebody to come to his door and be like, do you want to get in on some action? From the second he got home from prison, and that he is desperate.

• 41:08Andy Greenwald?

  So let's, I mean, let's talk about the art that's happening, like in the subtle ways of this show. I feel like, and I feel like this has been recently with Alien 2, I'm turning into like Paul Goldberg, architecture critic, when we talk about TV, but we are, there's so many shows right now and we're, so many new shows starting off. And so it, I'm starting to pay more attention and I think appreciate more the scaffolding and the blueprint that's clearly done ahead of time.

• 41:32Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 41:33Andy Greenwald?

  As to where this is going. And with a show like this, he's doing a very, very impressive job not moving the ball forward every episode. So Cliff is now blown. The Dark Heart's path towards Robbie, as well as the Task Force path towards Robbie, is very, very clear.

• 41:52Chris Ryan?

  Mm-hmm.

• 41:52Andy Greenwald?

  And likely short. Like, I don't think we can keep those plates in the air for all of the four episodes remaining in this show. And I don't think they're afraid of that. What's impressive to me is that in addition to moving things forward at a relatively healthy clip, so we do not feel like we're being stalled in order to, you know, show off or indulge things, he's doing something that in lesser hands can feel like the red herring of the week. So usually in murder mystery shows, ones that we love and ones that we nitpick, the way that they become eight-episode series instead of movies is each week introduces a new likely suspect and clears that suspect so that there's something to investigate, some stakes for the next episode before finally revealing

• 42:35Andy Greenwald?

  the ultimate person. This is a crime show without any mystery really about who did the crimes.

• 42:40Chris Ryan?

  Yeah, and now we have to wonder who's the rat on the task force, but it's kind of, you could do some process of elimination.

• 42:47Andy Greenwald?

  And we should get to that.

• 42:48Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 42:48Andy Greenwald?

  What this episode did is introduce Ray and Shelley, give them, like you said, a full illustration of inner lives, of conflict, of past, of history, and that's the story of the episode. That gives us the action sequence. Their story doesn't really matter past this episode, but that does the job of the red herring of the week in a way that feels so distracting and engaging that you don't notice any kind of water being tread.

• 43:16Chris Ryan?

  You touched on something really interesting, which is that the conception that we had of this show, that it was a cat and mouse thriller of a cop and a criminal driven by some of the same things, could very well be over next week. Like, if the pace continues at this clip, like, there is a what is the second half of this show about? And I wanted to bring up an email that we got a couple of weeks ago from someone named Tom, and I thought this was fascinating when I got it.

• 43:45Andy Greenwald?

  Tom Brandis.

• 43:45Chris Ryan?

  No, but I didn't know where to fit it in, and I wasn't really sure what he was getting into. I'll just read the email from Tom. "I enjoyed watching the first episode of Task and listening to your podcast about it. There's a note in the show that I thought you might want to get into. In the scene where Brandis's old friend visits him, the priest friend who visits him, the friend mentions having sent Brandis an article by Richard Rohr. Brandis, who is drunk, responds by mocking- Roar's Theology of the Universal Christ pounding the table, asking, is Christ in this table? And then standing up rattling off the name of other Catholic theologians who he doesn't want to hear about anymore because he has all the info he needs on his Phillies cup, which is full of booze.

• 44:27Chris Ryan?

  I was surprised to hear Richard Rohr mentioned. He is known among, he's well known among people, but not very famous. I know about him because my father-in-law got interested in Rohr's second half of life framework. And we talked about it for a while. I suspect that the person who made this show has a deep interest in this topic of second half of life and perhaps other ideas in the Franciscan contemplative practice.

• 44:51Andy Greenwald?

  Kai, you're gonna clip this part, right?

• 44:53Chris Ryan?

  Yeah, this is the good stuff. So I looked into this a little bit.

• 44:55Andy Greenwald?

  I mean, clip it for Instagram. I think Chris reading emails should be on all of our socials.

• 44:59Chris Ryan?

  I looked into this a little bit. Richard Rohr is probably best known for a book called Falling Upward. And this is an excerpt from Falling Upward.

• 45:09Andy Greenwald?

  Okay.

• 45:10Chris Ryan?

  There is much evidence on several levels that there are at least two major tasks to human life.

• 45:18Andy Greenwald?

  Oh.

• 45:19Chris Ryan?

  The first task is to build a strong container or identity. The second is to find the contents that the container was meant to hold.

• 45:26Andy Greenwald?

  What? Are you talking about Phillies cups?

• 45:28Chris Ryan?

  The first task we take for granted is the very purpose of life, which does not mean we do it well. The second task I'm told is more encountered than sought. Few arrive at it with much pre-planning, purpose, or passion. We all try to do what seems like the task that life first hands us. Establishing an identity, a home, relationships, friends, community, security, and building a proper platform for our only life. But it takes us much longer to discuss, to discover the task within the task. As I like to call it, what are we really doing when we are doing what we are doing?

• 46:01Andy Greenwald?

  And to be clear, you said what are, not water.

• 46:03Chris Ryan?

  Water. No, it's not about water, Ace.

• 46:07Chris Ryan?

  I wonder what the second half of the season is gonna be about.

• 46:12Andy Greenwald?

  That's, first of all, that's fascinating.

• 46:13Chris Ryan?

  Yeah, I'm like, I feel like Pablo Torre right now. I'm like, let's get, let's get Richard Rohr in here.

• 46:19Andy Greenwald?

  It's, it does, I love what it does to the title of the show. I love what it says about, look, that, all of the really, really kind of exciting and provocative ideas in that email, but also in the, in the theology, makes sense to me in, in the sense that this, this is a deep show. We are responding to it because it is very entertaining and there's petrings with tahin on them sprinkled throughout in ways that are delicious and surprising. And broadly speaking, this week is the episode where I completely stopped clock watching. Not just that the episodes are long, but like, where are we going with the storyline? This is the week, in, you know, in the parlance of our time, this is the week Task became a TV show to me, in the best possible way.

• 47:02Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 47:03Andy Greenwald?

  All of that is true. The truly great shows that engage us with their, as, either as viewers or on the podcast, have that secondary task, if you will, of probing deeper.

• 47:15Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 47:15Andy Greenwald?

  And being worthy of that level of conversation or insight. And so that you can watch it on the first pass and be like, that was really wild, or Tom sure seems to be suffering. I hope they get the kid back. Second time, you could, whether people still write or read essays anymore, write an essay about the Phillies Cup and filling it up.

• 47:33Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 47:34Andy Greenwald?

  And what that means for this man who's been so emptied out by the choices he made in life.

• 47:38Chris Ryan?

  And I think you have to take a second when you see something as honestly gorgeous as Maeve showing Sam how to swim.

• 47:44Andy Greenwald?

  Very beautiful.

• 47:44Chris Ryan?

  Which looks like a baptism, which is obviously this moment in nature away from the chaos of, you know, lefties' taproom and drug dens and everything else. And wonder why a moment like that is in there and why it's shot where it's shot and shot so beautifully and so tenderly. And, you know, start to consider like some of the obvious religious overtones and look at the title of the episode. You know, like, so what, what are, where are we going with this? This is something that I think will start to get revealed over the next episode or two.

• 48:17Andy Greenwald?

  Get a chance to talk to him about this, but but Brad went to Villanova.

• 48:21Chris Ryan?

  He did.

• 48:22Andy Greenwald?

  You know, in a way, we we started our partnership at Villanova.

• 48:26Chris Ryan?

  In some within spitting distance.

• 48:28Andy Greenwald?

  Not on the basketball team, but we went to the diner.

• 48:30Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 48:31Andy Greenwald?

  Not the Lannock diner that night. I think the idea.

• 48:34Chris Ryan?

  Did you see that Temple played Oklahoma the other week? And they got destroyed, but.

• 48:39Andy Greenwald?

  In in football?

• 48:40Chris Ryan?

  Football, yeah. Oklahoma's band couldn't come for some reason, I think, weather. And so St. Joe's just like, you can use our band.

• 48:48Andy Greenwald?

  That's nice.

• 48:49Chris Ryan?

  I thought that was uncalled for on St. Joe's part.

• 48:52Andy Greenwald?

  You think they shouldn't have done it?

• 48:53Chris Ryan?

  It's big five rules, you know?

• 48:54Andy Greenwald?

  Well, they did it also because it's big five and they were like, we are on the team. We're on the team of the team playing Temple.

• 48:59Chris Ryan?

  Yeah, it's like enemy of my enemy, you know?

• 49:02Andy Greenwald?

  So you don't.

• 49:03Chris Ryan?

  I don't I don't I don't condone it. I think that's.

• 49:05Andy Greenwald?

  First of all, you're playing all the sides against each other because you're like, I love Temple. I went to Temple, but then also like you're a Phil Martelli disciple.

• 49:11Chris Ryan?

  I went to St. Joe's basketball camp.

• 49:14Andy Greenwald?

  So where does your allegiance lie? Okay, pick a side.

• 49:20Chris Ryan?

  Is there no no way to just be a center?

• 49:23Andy Greenwald?

  There's no nuance anymore in this country. The idea of looking at things as vessels that exist as one concept or one space than how they're filled. I think is relevant to Ian both Brad's understanding of the region that he is documenting and the way that it is shot. Because one thing, we talked about this briefly when we talked about the pilot. I think the one thing that might be surprising to people who have not spent time in the suburbs of Philadelphia and its surrounding counties is how rural it can be. How beautiful, how green.

• 49:55Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 49:56Andy Greenwald?

  And I was thinking about that observation again last night when when Cliff and Robbie go to visit Ray. And the establishing shot, it looks like Mayberry. It is absolutely beautiful, the houses with with stately porches and wood columns and beams and the mountain just behind it. This is a vision of America, you know, in the in the best way possible. And even when you walk into the house, when he lets them in or Shelley steps aside and lets them in, like, house has good bones. You know what I mean? Like.

• 50:29Andy Greenwald?

  I'm not trying to do

• 50:30Chris Ryan?

  Chip and Joanna.

• 50:31Andy Greenwald?

  Not trying to do $100,000 listing here, but I'm like, you know, it's similar to where Robbie and Maeve live and they have chickens and it's out and there's a different way into this world where you're like, this is a place that people would retire to. Like, this is fine. Owning a home, having outdoors, like, isn't that what it's supposed to be? But what is the content of this beautiful green vessel these days? It's fentanyl and rage and impotence and sadness, which is not really a good recipe.

• 50:58Chris Ryan?

  Uh, we got to meet Margarita LeViva's character, Erin, a little bit.

• 51:01Andy Greenwald?

  You called it.

• 51:02Chris Ryan?

  Well, I mean,

• 51:03Andy Greenwald?

  You called it.

• 51:04Chris Ryan?

  You don't, you don't call the bat phone for Margarita unless you're gonna, like, do something with her, you know?

• 51:10Andy Greenwald?

  Yeah, but I, look, you just read this text.

• 51:13Chris Ryan?

  I think that they, you know, they were, they were just fainting too much with Shane, you know?

• 51:18Andy Greenwald?

  Yes, although again, this is, that ties into the observation I want to make about how some of the more practical structural stuff is just done artfully. Where last week, when we were talking about episode two, I was like, maybe Shane is the mole because he's acting sketchy.

• 51:32Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 51:33Andy Greenwald?

  He's not, but him acting sketchy is intentional and put in front of us so we have that reaction. And then that Perry and the Darkhearts have that reaction. So it's not wasted space. It's not a red herring. That is going to be the next thing that gets dealt with and probably, probably not well for Shane.

• 51:48Chris Ryan?

  Well, and then on the flip side of that, you've got what will probably be, I've not watched episode four, but will probably be a mole on, right? Like, on, on, uh, on Brandis's part. It doesn't look great for Grasanova, just because he came out so strong in the first episode with a lot of Wikipedia intel about the Darkhearts.

• 52:08Andy Greenwald?

  Yeah.

• 52:09Chris Ryan?

  I do not think it is Aaliyah.

• 52:12Andy Greenwald?

  No.

• 52:13Chris Ryan?

  So the, the zag would be Lizzie.

• 52:17Andy Greenwald?

  Right, but I've been, are they leaning too hard on the, Lizzie's a mess, kind of thing?

• 52:23Chris Ryan?

  So, but

• 52:23Andy Greenwald?

  I think that, I don't know how to do odds and I don't understand what FanDuel does. But I would say that, that, that Grasso would be the

• 52:31Chris Ryan?

  He's the, he's the betting favorite, yes. Um, what else, what else in the episode did you want to hit?

• 52:36Andy Greenwald?

  Don't you think he's also the favorite because of? A, how likeable he is being.

• 52:43Chris Ryan?

  Sure.

• 52:43Andy Greenwald?

  I feel like it's an intentional misdirect. But B, he walked into Lefty's like you walk into Lefty's. You know what I mean? Like, you're like, I, the two of them walking into Lefty's was a, was kind of-

• 52:54Chris Ryan?

  It was kind of like norm.

• 52:55Andy Greenwald?

  It was kind of like us walking in there. Or like, one of, one of the two was a little bit like, okay, okay. We all know I don't belong here and I don't want to be here.

• 53:02Chris Ryan?

  And Grasso's like, talking shit.

• 53:04Andy Greenwald?

  Yeah.

• 53:05Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 53:05Andy Greenwald?

  It's a meeting of the big balls society at Lefty's or something.

• 53:08Chris Ryan?

  God damn it, dude. Grasanova.

• 53:10Andy Greenwald?

  He's gonna break your heart?

• 53:11Chris Ryan?

  I mean, it, there's, I, I'm sure there's nuance to it. I don't think it's just gonna be like, you, you big rat. I'm sure he'll be like-

• 53:19Andy Greenwald?

  Look, Robbie's brother fell into the arms of the Dark Hearts. I mean, Hearts is in their name.

• 53:24Chris Ryan?

  The arms of Margarita Le Viva. He didn't even fall in, you know?

• 53:27Andy Greenwald?

  So you, so you, so she's worth it for you. That's your, that's your, you're like, generally, you, you abhor drug running.

• 53:35Chris Ryan?

  If you want me to push uncut fentanyl across county lines.

• 53:37Andy Greenwald?

  You gotta make it worth your while.

• 53:39Chris Ryan?

  No, I just mean, I, I think that the, the connections between the group of the people that we have met probably go much deeper than we, we know.

• 53:48Andy Greenwald?

  Did you have any, as someone who spent time there, went to college there, did you have any insight into the role Boston and the Ecuadorians might be playing? Just-

• 53:57Chris Ryan?

  Can't comment.

• 53:58Andy Greenwald?

  Oh, really?

• 53:59Chris Ryan?

  Still sealed, yeah.

• 54:01Andy Greenwald?

  Statue of limitations hasn't run out?

• 54:03Chris Ryan?

  No.

• 54:03Andy Greenwald?

  Did you, what was the name of the place that we used to get breakfast in Back Bay? Charlie's?

• 54:06Chris Ryan?

  Yeah, it's still there.

• 54:08Andy Greenwald?

  Lot of Ecuadorian-

• 54:08Chris Ryan?

  I took Sean there when we were in Boston for Bill's show, yeah.

• 54:11Andy Greenwald?

  Was there still the framed photo of Tim Dog?

• 54:13Chris Ryan?

  Uh, you know what? I didn't see it.

• 54:16Andy Greenwald?

  I think about it.

• 54:16Chris Ryan?

  I wonder if he's been canceled?

• 54:17Andy Greenwald?

  I think about it all the time.

• 54:19Chris Ryan?

  Cancel culture came for Tim Dog.

• 54:21Andy Greenwald?

  Didn't it say, it said, "Fuck Compton," right?

• 54:23Chris Ryan?

  It, that was his song. I don't know if he said it on the, on the picture.

• 54:27Andy Greenwald?

  He did.

• 54:28Chris Ryan?

  Way to go for Charlie's for keeping it, keeping it blue. Um, I don't have anything else really, other than-

• 54:36Andy Greenwald?

  Well, I don't think, I feel like Cliff, I mean, if we were gonna do numbers on the like, the McBain Live Forever speech, I feel like Cliff's not.

• 54:46Chris Ryan?

  Yeah, I know.

• 54:47Andy Greenwald?

  Cliff's not doing great.

• 54:48Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 54:49Andy Greenwald?

  Cliff's a little worried, a little upset.

• 54:51Chris Ryan?

  And too many people know his name now.

• 54:53Andy Greenwald?

  And his home.

• 54:54Chris Ryan?

  Yes.

• 54:56Andy Greenwald?

  I, I, I, I thought that there, like, again, it just, understanding the nuance of the story, there's, there's so many moving pieces, there's so many characters, but there's also just, you know, the balancing act between, between the larger, the, the bigger shoes dropping in terms of who's doing what to whom and how it's gonna play out, and then why you preload an episode like this with a little bit more of Robbie and Maeve, which was touched on at the end of last episode. And not only are both Amelia, what's her, Amelia Jones and Tom Pelfrey amazing in the scene, and I, I, the two of them in their real accents talking to each other, which I saw on the HBO Max Instagram account, is really wild.

• 55:40Chris Ryan?

  Yeah. Pelfrey was at the Eagles game.

• 55:43Andy Greenwald?

  Must have been agony for him. He's, but Ruffalo was wearing.

• 55:47Chris Ryan?

  Birds.

• 55:47Andy Greenwald?

  He's wearing like a Dawkins jersey. He was like fully, can we welcome him?

• 55:51Chris Ryan?

  I think so.

• 55:52Andy Greenwald?

  He seems like a great guy. I feel like he's, he knows, he's rolling with the winners right now. No, just that the, in the, in the Robbie scene, what he says in that scene about, you know, Jason shook my hand with the same hand he used to beat your father's brains out, and like, there's gotta be a reason for all of this, and he needs to make, you know, it's a religious, almost purpose out of this.

• 56:14Chris Ryan?

  It can't just be that this is something that happened to us.

• 56:17Andy Greenwald?

  It's a, it's a, it's a showcase scene for the actor, it's a breakout scene for the emotional inner life of the character, but it also is just a smartly placed hedge against the kind of nitpicking conversation that can spring up in a show like this, like. He knows they're on borrowed time, and yet he is still very much living under his name in his house with his children.

• 56:38Chris Ryan?

  Yeah, I also like the fact that he's hanging on to this, like, I need a million dollars for like my family and to get out of it.

• 56:43Andy Greenwald?

  In Canada.

• 56:44Chris Ryan?

  It's like, this isn't a Bruce Springsteen song, man.

• 56:46Andy Greenwald?

  It's a Mother Love Bone song.

• 56:47Chris Ryan?

  Exactly.

• 56:48Andy Greenwald?

  And those end up a lot different.

• 56:50Chris Ryan?

  Uh, we can wrap there.

• 56:51Andy Greenwald?

  Did you recognize the Larnark diner in that scene? So I was thrilled. I have to say, for a moment, I thought-

• 56:57Chris Ryan?

  I have been pretty nerdy about the locations. So, the first two, the first episode, I think I spent too much time trying to like create, and then found out The Inquirer was just making a map of, of the locations.

• 57:09Andy Greenwald?

  The Philadelphia Inquirer, yeah.

• 57:10Chris Ryan?

  The Philadelphia Inquirer. So I don't need to be like, how far would it be to get from, like, uh, from this place in Chester to this place? But-

• 57:18Andy Greenwald?

  Were you trying to treat it like collateral?

• 57:20Chris Ryan?

  As people come out of stuff, I try to see like if there are a sign, and then I saw it was Larnark, yeah.

• 57:25Andy Greenwald?

  So, that diner, it's like four minutes from the house I grew up in. That was where we went after high school, like, all the time-

• 57:31Chris Ryan?

  Mozzarella sticks and black coffee, the world's-

• 57:34Andy Greenwald?

  Breakfast of champions.

• 57:35Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 57:36Andy Greenwald?

  That is, of all the things that I've said out loud on this show that everyone was like, "That's not normal, bro." That is the one I will stand by.

• 57:42Chris Ryan?

  Okay.

• 57:43Andy Greenwald?

  That is a classic teenage order. I inherited that order. I wasn't like, "Let me look at this whole menu. No snapper soup for me today, fellas. I want that and that." That's what the older kids got, and I was like, "I want to be like them. I'm not going to be smoking those cigarettes and running numbers like CR downtown. Just give me some fried cheese and I'm good." I briefly thought that they had only done the exteriors there and shot the interior somewhere else, because they dressed the shit out of it. They put in like very moody-

• 58:10Chris Ryan?

  Oh, yeah.

• 58:11Andy Greenwald?

  Um, window shades and stuff, so it did not look the way it looked in my time in the interior or in Silver Linings Playbook, which was a film there.

• 58:18Chris Ryan?

  That's right. Um, let's wrap there.

• 58:21Andy Greenwald?

  That was exciting.

• 58:22Chris Ryan?

  I was, I'm, I was thrilled for you. Thanks to Kaia, thanks to Kai, thanks to John, thanks to our listeners.

• 58:27Andy Greenwald?

  Thanks to our email writers.

• 58:28Chris Ryan?

  And thanks to our incredibly intelligent-

• 58:30Andy Greenwald?

  Theologians.

• 58:30Chris Ryan?

  My theologian email writer, saving our show. Um, we'll be back on Thursday for the finale of Alien Earth.

• 58:37Andy Greenwald?

  Yeah.

• 58:38Chris Ryan?

  And the first two episodes of The Lowdown.

• 58:39Andy Greenwald?

  And, um, say hi to Ethan and Sterling for me.

• 58:42Chris Ryan?

  I will, brother.

• 58:52Speaker 04

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• 59:22Speaker 10

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• 59:37Speaker 10

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