ENCORE: Edward Snowden | Going Public | 3

Laura Poitras and Glenn Greenwald prepare to break their story. Edward Snowden goes on the run. Be the first to know about Wondery’s newest podcasts, curated recommendations, and more! Sign up now at https://wondery.fm/wonderynewsletter Listen to American Scandal on the Wondery App or wherever you get your podcasts. Experience all episodes ad-free and be the first to binge the newest season. Unlock exclusive early access by joining Wondery+ in the Wondery App, Apple Podcasts or Spotify. Start your free trial today by visiting wondery.com/links/american-scandal/ http://wondery.com/links/american-scandal/ now. See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Lindsay Graham?

  Audible subscribers can binge new seasons of American Scandal early and ad-free right now. Join Audible in the Audible app or by subscribing on Apple Podcasts. A listener note: This episode previously aired in 2022. It's June 3, 2013, early in the evening in Hong Kong, and Edward Snowden is standing by a window in a hotel room staring out at the city. The sun is setting over the horizon, and down below, traffic has begun to grow snarled, with cars honking and pedestrians swarming through the streets.

• 0:44Lindsay Graham?

  Snowden turns away from the chaotic city life and gazes across his small hotel room, which has grown messy and chaotic in its own ways. On the other side of the room, the documentary filmmaker Laura Poitras is packing up her camera gear, spread all across the floor littering the ground. Next to her, Glenn Greenwald, reporter for The Guardian, is hunched over his laptop, typing rapidly, only pausing to take a bite of something from room service. Snowden just stands there. He's exhausted. At this point, there's not much more he can do. All day, he's been sitting with Greenwald, getting interviewed on camera. The two have been discussing why Snowden smuggled out top-secret documents from the NSA and leaked them to these two journalists. Overall, Snowden thought he did a good job.

• 1:29Lindsay Graham?

  He explained that citizens deserve to know the truth about their government, that the NSA's surveillance of regular Americans is a threat to their freedom and democracy. The interviews went on for hours, but were a culmination of a plan that was months in the making. But now, it's all done. And as he paces around the hotel room, Snowden realizes the story is largely out of his hands. Poitras is going to stitch together a film, and Greenwald is going to write and publish his stories. The world is about to know the truth about the NSA. But Snowden is not entirely ready to step aside, because he still needs some assurances from the journalists. He wants to make sure they're going to do their job responsibly.

• 2:12Lindsay Graham?

  Snowden steps over a tray of dirty plates and sidles up to Greenwald. So Glenn, we covered a lot. What do you think you're gonna write about first? Well, I'm gonna write three or four articles, I think. Send them off to my editors. Then we'll figure out what we're gonna publish first. Alright, that makes sense. But look, I want to remind you, I reached out because I trusted you with this story. Oh, I know that. I mean, you're both good journalists. You both have good ethics. Well, thank you, Ed, but where is this coming from? What's going on? Snowden taps his hand against his chest as he prepares his next words. Well Glenn, I just...

• 2:50Lindsay Graham?

  I want you to promise me that you're gonna vet all the documents I handed over. Oh, you don't have to worry about that. We'll do our job. I'm serious. The public has to know the truth, but I need a promise. This information can't put any innocent people at risk. Ed, I'm telling you, don't worry. I've dealt with sensitive material. I know what I'm doing. Okay, but I don't think you should be so cavalier. No one has ever dealt with anything like this, not at this scale. We can't afford any mistakes. And we're not gonna make any. No, no, you have to listen to me. If we don't do this right, real people could get hurt. And if that happens, it wouldn't just be a tragedy for them. It would kill the story. The government could justifiably say, "I endangered people's lives." And then everyone's attention will suddenly shift.

• 3:35Lindsay Graham?

  No one's gonna care that the government is violating the Constitution. Not when they think I did something reckless. I hear you, Ed. We're on the same team. You have my word. I'll be careful. Okay, fine. But also, this can't drag on forever. Officially, I took medical leave to come here. But my bosses at the NSA are already emailing me, trying to figure out what's going on. Pretty soon, they're gonna realize something's up. I don't want them to get a jump on the story and find some way to discredit me. Greenwald sighs. "Well, I understand the urgency, but Ed, listen to what you're saying. You want me to be careful, but aggressive, thorough, but fast. I know. It's a lot. Of course, it's a lot.

• 4:18Lindsay Graham?

  And I'm sure you're full of a million emotions right now, but you have to remember something, too. You can trust us to do our job. We'll do it the right way." Yeah, okay. And hey, Ed, look at me. I want you to do something. Take a deep breath, okay? Look me in the eyes and tell me honestly. Do you want to do this? Are you ready?

• 4:42Lindsay Graham?

  Snowden smites his lower lip as he gazes at the reporter. Greenwald is right. He's full of a million conflicting emotions, all at war, all leaving Snowden feeling dizzy and overwhelmed. But Snowden didn't come this far to back out. So he nods. Tells Greenwald he's ready. Greenwald rises, claps Snowden on the shoulder. It's game time. Soon, The Guardian is going to start publishing stories. And when they do, millions of people around the world are going to wake up to a shocking truth.

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• 6:07Lindsay Graham?

  From Wondery, I'm Lindsay Graham, and this is American Scandal.

• 6:30Lindsay Graham?

  By the early 2000s, Edward Snowden had begun working as a professional computer programmer. He was employed by a small web development company and had what seemed like a good life. But the terrorist attacks of 9/11 would change everything for Snowden. The 18-year-old felt compelled to serve his country and went on to enlist in the military. Although he received a medical discharge, Snowden continued working as a public servant, taking jobs with the CIA and the NSA. And despite some misgivings about the work, Snowden remained dedicated to the country's fight against terrorism. That changed in 2010, when Snowden discovered a government secret that left him badly shaken.

• 7:11Lindsay Graham?

  The NSA wasn't just spying on terrorists, it was targeting millions of regular Americans, gathering a trove of data on their phone calls, emails, and private lives. Snowden decided he couldn't hold on to such a shocking secret, and in 2013, he leaked an enormous batch of classified documents to the filmmaker Laura Poitras. Snowden then fled to Hong Kong, leaving behind his job, his girlfriend, and the life he'd always known. In early June of 2013, Poitras and reporters from The Guardian spent days crammed into a small hotel room, prepared to break the biggest story of their lives. The group was certain that the United States government would strike back, but despite

• 7:53Lindsay Graham?

  the risks, they continued to push forward, convinced that Americans deserved to know the truth, even if that meant facing charges of espionage and treason. This is episode 3, Going Public. It's the evening of June 4, 2013. In a hotel room in Hong Kong, reporter Glenn Greenwald runs a hand through his spiky brown hair and checks his watch. It's getting late, almost 9 o'clock at night, but more importantly, it's almost 9:00 in the morning in New York City, and Greenwald still has not heard from his editor, Janine Gibson. Greenwald stares at his computer, waiting impatiently for Gibson to get online. All day, Greenwald has been interviewing Edward Snowden.

• 8:38Lindsay Graham?

  He's been gathering incredible details about a government program of mass surveillance. By now, Greenwald has written four articles for The Guardian. The stories are ready to go, and Greenwald is antsy to get them published. He doesn't want to wait any longer and risk letting the whole thing fall through. But the stories will not get published until Greenwald gets the go-ahead from his editor, and he can't get that approval until Gibson gets online and the two have a chance to talk. Greenwald anxiously taps the desk waiting. Without a doubt, this is the biggest story in his entire career. Ever since 2001, Greenwald has been writing about the erosion of civil liberties and the overreach of the federal government.

• 9:20Lindsay Graham?

  For a long time, Greenwald suspected that federal agencies were spying on American citizens. But he never had enough proof. But now, with the shocking revelations from Edward Snowden, Greenwald has a white whale, a bombshell story that could change the conversation about national security in America. But The Guardian has to stop dragging its heels and publish the stories. Otherwise, the government could shut them down, or they could be scooped by their rivals at The Washington Post, a paper that's also made contact with Snowden. Greenwald is about to get up and get some fresh air, when finally, his editor, Janine Gibson, signs online. After a quick greeting, the two switch over to an encrypted chat program and continue the conversation.

• 10:03Lindsay Graham?

  Greenwald doesn't bother with pleasantries. He tells Gibson it's time to publish, and he believes he knows which story they should start with: the one about a secret court order and Verizon, the telecom giant. According to leaked documents, the federal government managed to force Verizon to hand over phone records of all its American customers. The NSA was able to scrape up citizens' private information without gaining warrants. Greenwald believes it's a shocking revelation and a clear violation of constitutional rights. That should make it easy for the public to digest, and since Verizon is such a large company, readers will quickly understand the scope of the abuse. Greenwald finishes typing out his explanation.

• 10:44Lindsay Graham?

  And when his editor responds, she agrees: "The Verizon article sounds like a great one to start with." But then she pauses, and Greenwald watches as three dots appear, then disappear in the chat box. Greenwald clenches his jaw. It looks like his editor is hesitating about something. But at this point, he can't imagine what the problem is. They've gone over everything.

• 11:08Lindsay Graham?

  Finally, a message does come through. Gibson agrees that they should publish as soon as possible, but there is a problem. Before going to press, The Guardian's lawyers want to show the stories to the government. They want federal officials to weigh in and explain whether their reporting will pose a risk to national security. Greenwald pounds the desk in frustration. He begins typing back rapidly, telling his editor that it's a terrible idea. The government cannot be allowed to shape their reporting. They'll kill the story. But Gibson shoots back, telling Greenwald that this is the best way to avoid being charged with espionage. The government needs a chance to weigh in. Greenwald shakes his head. This is not how it's supposed to work.

• 11:50Lindsay Graham?

  The press is supposed to hold the government accountable, not collude with them to cover up their crimes. It's a violation of everything it means to be a journalist. But Greenwald's editor keeps pushing back, arguing that they are in untested waters. No one in American history has ever leaked so many classified documents. The FBI could even raid The Guardian's offices. They have to be careful. Greenwald scoffs. This isn't a banana republic. The FBI isn't going to raid the offices of a storied newspaper. Still, he knows the paper isn't going to ignore the advice of its own lawyers. So Greenwald tries to de-escalate the conflict, asking what the timetable is looking like. When will they be able to publish? Gibson says she can't answer that. They're having more meetings with the lawyers today.

• 12:35Lindsay Graham?

  But as soon as she has more information, she'll be in touch.

• 12:41Lindsay Graham?

  Greenwald curses, and without saying goodbye, he logs off the encrypted chat. Greenwald knows The Guardian's lawyers could stall for days. And part of him wonders if the higher-ups at the paper are waiting for someone else to break the story and take the heat from the government. If that's the case, Greenwald can't sit around and wait. He's come too far, and he's taken too many personal risks. He has to be the one to break this story. So Greenwald clicks back into his inbox and begins scanning his contacts. He knows a lot of people at other publications. And if The Guardian doesn't have the courage to publish these stories, Greenwald is going to find someone else who does.

• 13:23Lindsay Graham?

  A few hours later, Edward Snowden is lying in his hotel bed in Hong Kong. It's after 2 AM, and Snowden is tossing and turning, trying to get comfortable. But even though he's exhausted and his eyes are shut tight, he can't seem to fall asleep. Snowden sighs and throws off the sheets. It's gotten late, and at this point Snowden knows he's probably not going to get any rest. So he grabs his glasses and gets out of bed. He walks over to the window and opens the curtains. And as he stares out at the skyline of Hong Kong, Snowden takes a series of deep breaths. He has to stop his racing thoughts. Because any day now, The Guardian is going to publish their first stories about his leak. Snowden is certain the United States government is going to come after him.

• 14:06Lindsay Graham?

  When they do, Snowden will face criminal charges that could land him in prison for the rest of his life. The thought is chilling. Snowden wouldn't get to spend any more holidays with his mom or dad. He wouldn't be able to hang out with his friends, or travel the world, or live out his dreams. But above all, Snowden would have to say goodbye to his girlfriend, Lindsay Mills. If he goes to prison, they won't get to wake up together on Saturday mornings. They won't have long conversations about photography or art. Their life together would be over.

• 14:39Lindsay Graham?

  The possibility of the loss is so painful, it's almost enough to break his resolve. But Snowden shakes his head. He can't back out. Snowden reminds himself that he's made a choice. And while it was not an easy decision, he could never have lived with himself if he'd done otherwise. Because for Edward Snowden, standing up for what you believe in is what it means to serve your country.

• 15:05Lindsay Graham?

  Two days later, Glenn Greenwald folds himself into a leather armchair in his hotel room in Hong Kong. It's 5 a.m., and the morning sun has just begun to rise, but Greenwald is wide awake, staring anxiously at his computer screen. It may be early in the morning in East Asia, but in New York City, it's 5 p.m., and that means The Guardian's editor, Janine Gibson, just blew their deadline. Greenwald had been pressing Gibson to get his reporting online. They couldn't afford to keep dragging their feet and waiting for the thumbs up from the government after reviewing their articles. Any more delay could kill the story, so Greenwald was insistent. They needed to move forward with a firm deadline. But Gibson refused to commit to any kind of concrete timeline, and with the pressure

• 15:50Lindsay Graham?

  mounting, Greenwald felt like he was reaching a breaking point. So he and his husband came up with a plan B. Greenwald would create a website and publish the articles himself. He wouldn't have to answer to any editors or publishers' lawyers, and he could get out the full story and be an unflinching advocate for government transparency and accountability. And part of that plan was telling his editor that she had a deadline. She could either publish his work by 5 p.m., or he be going elsewhere. Greenwald glances again at the clock. There's no mistaking it. Gibson has ignored his ultimatum. So now, even though he's exposing himself to huge legal risk, it's time to make good on his threat.

• 16:34Lindsay Graham?

  Greenwald begins drafting an email to Gibson. He says he understands she has concerns, but he wasn't bluffing. He's sorry it didn't work out. Greenwald takes a deep breath and hits send. But less than a minute later, his cellphone starts to ring. "This is Glenn." "Yeah, Glenn, it's Janine." "Janine, I thought I wouldn't hear from you." "You know, Glenn, I never thought you were bluffing." "Well, good. I'm dead serious. I'm taking this story somewhere else." "Glenn, would you just stop for a second? Do you realize the resources we've already poured into the story? If you walk away, The Guardian is gonna lose everything." "Well, maybe you should've thought of that a couple of days ago." "You're being unfair. This story is an enormous risk.

• 17:18Lindsay Graham?

  We couldn't just ignore that." "I'm sorry, I don't think I'm being unfair. All I asked for was a straight answer about when the stories would get published. You've been ignoring me for days." "I wasn't ignoring you. I was working." And you wanna know something right now? We're putting together headlines and formatting. Greenwald squints and runs a hand through his spiky brown hair. What do you mean? Don't be obtuse. It means the story's gonna be live in like thirty minutes. Really? Thirty minutes? Yeah, I just got the go-ahead. I only need a half hour. That's it. Thirty minutes. Assuming you can have a little patience. Stop it with the dramatics. Greenwald checks the clock. It's 5:10. Alright, fine. You've gotten till 5:40.

• 18:02Lindsay Graham?

  But if the article is not up by then, then that's it. No more second chances.

• 18:10Lindsay Graham?

  Greenwald hangs up on Gibson and sits back in his chair. All in all, this is good news. He had to find some way to force their hands, but he always knew there was no chance a newspaper like The Guardian would have walked away from such an important story. So Greenwald gets up and begins pacing nervously around his hotel room. And exactly thirty minutes later, his computer lets out a chime. Greenwald rushes over and looks at the screen. The story is live. Gibson has sent the link, and when Greenwald clicks it, his heart skips a beat. The headline reads, "NSA Collecting Phone Records Of Millions Of Verizon Customers Daily." It's a stunning piece of reporting. And up at the top is Glenn Greenwald's name involved.

• 18:54Lindsay Graham?

  Greenwald lets out an involuntary laugh. It's incredible. He did it. After three of the most intense days of his life, his bombshell story about mass surveillance is now online. The United States government is not gonna know what hit it. But as Greenwald rereads all the damning accusations, he realizes that this story is far from over. Because soon, the government is bound to strike back.

• 19:53Speaker 03

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• 20:02Speaker 03

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• 20:09Speaker 03

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• 20:10Speaker 05

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• 20:31Lindsay Graham?

  It's June 7, 2013, in Honolulu, Hawaii. Lindsay Mills is riding on the back of her motorcycle, holding on to a friend. The bike maneuvers past a honking taxi and a group of pedestrians. Mills' friend weaves, and spotting a gap between cars, twists the throttle and sends the bike roaring down the street. They make a turn and head down an empty avenue. As they speed off into the distance, a warm tropical wind washes over them. Mills shuts her eyes, feeling a sliver of relief. For the past year and a half, Mills has lived on Oahu with her boyfriend Edward Snowden. They've been together for a long time. And for the most part, their lives have been happy and harmonious. But something has obviously gone wrong.

• 21:14Lindsay Graham?

  Snowden told Mills he'd gone away on some kind of work trip. She didn't think twice about it. He's always traveled a lot. But that was two weeks ago, and Mills has not heard from him since. What's even stranger is that Snowden was out on medical leave when he took off. Snowden has been suffering from epilepsy. But if he was having some kind of flare-up, it wouldn't make sense for him to be traveling for work. And then everything got even stranger. This morning, someone from the NSA called their house and asked if Mills knew where they could find Snowden. Mills didn't know the answer to that question. She didn't even know what to make of it. And the more she's thought about it, the more her mind has drifted to a worse-case scenario. Snowden could be having an affair. Mills keeps trying to push away that thought.

• 21:59Lindsay Graham?

  But looking at the facts, she can't think of another explanation. Mills opens her eyes as the motorcycle rounds a bend. It's another beautiful day in paradise here in Hawaii. Riding on the back of this motorcycle only confirms it. But this was just an errand. She had to drop off her car for some repairs. Her friend was nice enough to give her a lift home. What Mills really wants is just to get back to the house and be by herself.

• 22:25Lindsay Graham?

  Mills friend Todd turns down her street. But as they approach the house, Mills spots a white SUV parked in the driveway. Two men in black suits are talking to her neighbors, pointing at the small bungalow where Mills and Snowden live together. It's very strange. The men look like federal agents. Then it hits her. Maybe Snowden isn't having an affair. Maybe he's in trouble. The motorcycle slows down, but Mills leans forward and whispers in her friend's ear. "No, no, no, don't stop. Keep moving. Go, keep moving, go." "What?" "Get us out of here." Mills friend twists the throttle and the motorcycle races past the house. They head down the block and make a turn.

• 23:06Lindsay Graham?

  When they're out of sight, her friend pulls over to the side of the road, kills the engine. "Lindsay, what's going on? Who are those guys?" "I don't know." "You're in some kind of trouble?" "No, of course not. I'm not the one in trouble." "What do you mean?" "You're talking about Ed." "I don't know. Maybe?" "I thought she said he was on a work trip." "Yeah, that's what he told me, but now I'm not so sure." "Those guys look like federal agents or something." "I don't know what they want." "But I don't, I don't want to talk to them until I've had some time to think." "Okay, so where do you want to go?" "I don't know. Somewhere safe. Somewhere safe." "Okay, well, I've got an idea." Mills friend starts up the bike, pulls back onto the road. They ride down a two-lane street.

• 23:49Lindsay Graham?

  A few minutes later, the bike steers into a parking lot. "Starbucks?" "This is your idea of someplace safe?" "Yeah, it's clean, it has bathrooms, there's coffee, you don't need anything else." "Well, I guess. I mean, is that okay? We can go somewhere else." "No, no, you're right. Let's just head in." "This is fine."

• 24:11Lindsay Graham?

  Mills jumps off the bike and makes her way to the Starbucks. But when she steps inside, her friend taps her on the shoulder. Over on the newspaper rack is a copy of the New York Times, and there, printed in black ink, is a story with the words NSA, whistleblower, and spying. A chill suddenly runs up her spine. Can't be. There's no way her boyfriend is connected to some big national story. But even as Mills wrestles with the thought, she can't help but admit it's not entirely impossible. Snowden could have leaked classified documents, and maybe he didn't say anything because he was trying to protect her. But if that's the case, if Snowden is the reason the New York Times is writing about the NSA, he could be in big trouble.

• 24:54Lindsay Graham?

  And this isn't the last time Mills is going to get a visit from federal agents. The next day, Edward Snowden stands at the foot of his hotel bed in Hong Kong and grins as he watches the TV. On screen, a cable news pundit is going on an angry rant, criticizing the Obama administration for spying on Americans. He's calling it a violation of the law. And even though this TV network is normally aligned with the Democrats, the commentator's pulling no punches. Snowden looks away from the TV and shares a knowing smile with the three journalists hovering nearby. Laura Poitras, Glenn Greenwald, and Ewan McCaskill don't say a word. They don't have to.

• 25:38Lindsay Graham?

  Right now Snowden knows what all of them are thinking. Their work together has turned into one of the biggest stories in American history. Ever since Glenn Greenwald published his first story in The Guardian, everyone has been talking. Snowden was worried no one would care about the story, but clearly, those worries were misplaced. The media is covering the issue nonstop. Members of Congress are calling for investigations. And everywhere, it seems people are asking the fundamental question: is it okay for the government to spy on its own citizens? Is it an acceptable trade-off for national security?

• 26:15Lindsay Graham?

  Snowden couldn't be more proud of everything they've accomplished. But the work isn't done. At this point, the public doesn't know who leaked the documents. Snowden is still just an anonymous source. And that's something he wants to change. So Snowden turns down the volume on the TV and tells the journalists that it's time to talk about the next step. Snowden wants them to reveal that he's the whistleblower. And going forward, they should use his name and face in their stories. McCaskill, a veteran journalist from The Guardian, shoots Snowden a skeptical look. He asks if Snowden is really prepared to take that step. He'll officially become a wanted man by the United States government. Snowden shakes his head.

• 26:58Lindsay Graham?

  Of course, he's not ready, but that doesn't really matter. McCaskill frowns and demands an explanation. What does Snowden have to gain from taking such a big risk? Snowden chuckles. Going public is hardly a risk. It's only a matter of time before the government discovers that Snowden is the whistleblower. When that happens, they'll have the upper hand. They'll be the ones controlling the narrative. Snowden reminds the journalists that government officials could attack his character. They could tell everyone how he dropped out of high school. They could downplay his role in the intelligence community. They could even go after his girlfriend Lindsay and tell the press how she does pole dancing for fun. They could make Snowden seem like some kind of deviant.

• 27:39Lindsay Graham?

  But Snowden says that if they get ahead of this, they can keep the focus on the NSA and the government's spying, instead of letting the whole thing devolve into an ugly spectacle. Snowden gazes at the journalists, waiting for them to push back and reject his proposal. They're the ones with experience crafting a narrative. They've broken hundreds of stories. But the three journalists just look at each other and nod. They say it sounds like a plan. And before Snowden can say another word, they begin talking about logistics. How they'll cover Snowden's big reveal and how they'll divvy up their roles. Snowden sinks into a chair. This is the right move, and he knows it. And while he wishes he could tell his girlfriend in person, he knows that's not possible,

• 28:23Lindsay Graham?

  not with the way everything has shaken out. So Snowden runs a hand through his hair and turns to a camera that Laura Poitras has just set up. She's going to film him. They'll introduce Snowden to the world. And soon, everyone will understand why he did what he did and why America's own government was covering up the truth.

• 28:46Lindsay Graham?

  A day later, Lindsay Mills stands in front of a mirror, applying lipstick. She smacks her lips together and smiles. And as she tilts her head, she has to admit, she doesn't look half-bad. And not looking half-bad is a minor miracle, considering everything that's happened in the past few days. Mills was staying at her bungalow in Honolulu, when federal agents came knocking on the front door. They said they were with the NSA, and began interrogating Mills about her boyfriend, Edward Snowden. It was a tense encounter. And it wasn't Mills' only brush with law enforcement. A detective with the Honolulu Police Department showed up, and made it seem like Mills was a criminal. The detective reminded Mills that Snowden was nowhere to be found, and he said it's

• 29:28Lindsay Graham?

  suspicious that Snowden's workplace had filed a missing persons report before she had. Then the detective went on to insinuate that Mills had murdered her own boyfriend. It was a scary and humiliating experience. And Mills felt like the walls of her house were closing in. She had no idea where Snowden was, or what he'd done. And as she grew more and more panicked, Mills knew she had to do something. So she got out of Honolulu. Mills called up her best friend, and made last-minute plans to stay in San Diego, California. Now, standing in her friend's bathroom, Mills feels like she's recaptured some semblance of normalcy. The two friends are getting ready to head out to a birthday party.

• 30:11Lindsay Graham?

  And Mills won't have to think about her missing boyfriend or federal agents. Instead, she'll just eat, or go for a swim. She's going to laugh, determined to have a good time. Mills checks herself in the mirror one last time, when suddenly her phone buzzes in her pocket. She takes it out, and sees it's a friend named Tiffany. Mills answers the call, happy to get another distraction. But something immediately seems wrong. Tiffany's voice is thick with concern, and she asks if Mills is okay. Mills' heart starts to race. She says she's fine, why wouldn't she be? Tiffany exhales, and then tells Mills she has to go grab a computer and take a look at the website for The Guardian. Mills suddenly goes weak with fear.

• 30:55Lindsay Graham?

  She doesn't know what's happened. But judging by her friend's voice, it sounds like something terrible. Mills races into the bedroom and grabs her laptop. She finds the newspaper's website, and when it loads, she gasps. There, at the top of the page, is a photo of Edward Snowden. He looks pale and tired, but there's no doubt it's him. Mills clicks the video and watches as Snowden explains why he blew the whistle on the NSA and his programs of mass surveillance.

• 31:24Speaker 06

  I'm no different from anybody else. I don't have special skills. I'm just another guy who sits there day to day in the office, watches what's happening, and goes, "This is something that's not our place to decide. The public needs to decide whether these programs and policies are right or wrong."

• 31:43Lindsay Graham?

  Mills continues watching the video, stunned. She can't make sense of this. The video, the news coverage, it's all so surreal. And soon, her phone begins to buzz with another call. Mills ignores it. But then the text messages start coming in, one after another, an endless torrent of chiming notifications. Mills turns her phone on silent and continues staring at the face of her boyfriend, who's sitting in some hotel room, far away in Hong Kong. It's too much. And while Mills is proud of Snowden, she's also furious and scared. Snowden just confessed to a crime. She thinks it's moral and righteous, but it's still a crime. And so large, an event making international headlines.

• 32:27Lindsay Graham?

  There's no chance their lives will ever be the same.

• 32:34Speaker 07

  Imagine you're reading Pride and Prejudice, except you're not reading it. Harris Dickinson and Marissa Abella are reading it to you on Audible. Her barbs sting you. This coldness sends a shiver up your spine. Your heart aches. Your ears burn. You yearn for Elizabeth and Mr. Darcy to profess their undying love for one another. You can't bear it any longer. Well, maybe a chapter longer. Performance is so good, you'll give love a second chance. Audible. Stories that speak to you.

• 33:04Speaker 08

  Hey, I'm Cassie DePecce, the host of Against the Odds from Audible Originals. In each episode, we share thrilling true stories of survival, putting you in the shoes of the people who lived to tell the tale. In our latest series, we track the story of Hugh Glass, the real-life revenant that inspired the 2015 film starring Leonardo DiCaprio. In 1823, Glass was brutally mauled by a grizzly bear in present-day South Dakota and left for dead. His survival depended on trekking through 350 miles of wilderness alone with grave injuries. But he was driven by his thirst for revenge. Follow Against the Odds wherever you get your podcasts. Audible subscribers can binge all episodes of Against the Odds early and ad-free right now. Join Audible in the Audible app or by subscribing on Apple Podcasts.

• 33:57Lindsay Graham?

  It's June 10th, 2013, in Hong Kong. Edward Snowden is standing in front of a mirror, staring at himself, his heart pounding. He looks like a complete stranger. His facial hair is gone, his head is shaved, his eyes are a different color, thanks to the pair of contacts he just put in. Snowden knows that if he ran into one of his friends on the street, they may not recognize him. But a disguise is not a plan. And that's a problem. Because with the pressure mounting to escape from the hotel, Snowden is going to need a way out. Something more than just a rudimentary disguise. By now, the entire world knows what Snowden looks like. They know his name, his backstory, and everyone knows that Snowden has been hiding out in Hong Kong.

• 34:41Lindsay Graham?

  He revealed everything, on camera. He wanted to be transparent and explain why he did what he did.

• 34:49Lindsay Graham?

  But his honesty came at a cost. Members of the press immediately fanned out across Hong Kong, figuring out where Snowden was staying. Since then, they've been staking out the hotel, waiting for a chance to interview the now infamous whistleblower. This whole time Snowden has remained tucked away in his hotel room. He knows that if he even walks out into the hallway, he could quickly be arrested and extradited to the US. If that happens, he'll almost certainly face charges of espionage. But he also knows he can't spend the rest of his life hiding in a hotel. Somehow, he's going to have to get out and avoid the press and the police, then get somewhere safe while he figures out his next move.

• 35:31Lindsay Graham?

  So Snowden walks away from the mirror and flips open his laptop. He begins chatting online with Glenn Greenwald, who's hiding out in a hotel room of his own, along with two attorneys who agreed to represent Snowden. But Greenwald says he has a plan that could allow Snowden to escape unnoticed. "It's a simple plan," Greenwald said, "but risky." The press has somehow managed to get Greenwald's room number, and now there's a horde of journalists standing outside Greenwald's room, waiting to get an interview. Every time Greenwald opens the door, he's assaulted with camera flashes. But, Greenwald tells Snowden, "They can also use this situation to their advantage. They can create a diversion that would allow Snowden to escape from the hotel." Greenwald will open his door and step out into the hallway.

• 36:16Lindsay Graham?

  The press will swarm around him, and Greenwald will then walk down to the hotel lobby, leading the pack of journalists down with him. Once the coast is clear, the two attorneys will head over to Snowden's room, and together they'll sneak out of the hotel and head to a bridge that leads to a mall next door. Once they're safely hidden, anonymous in the crowd of the mall, they'll make their way out onto the street and get somewhere safe. Snowden bites his lip. "It does not sound like much of a plan, and they could very well get caught." But Greenwald asks Snowden if they have any other options. The attorneys have a car waiting for them, and they've arranged for Snowden to stay at a safe house. They just need to get out of the hotel, and right now, before it's too late.

• 37:00Lindsay Graham?

  Snowden lets out a deep breath. Greenwald is right about that. He can't wait any longer. Otherwise, he's bound to be arrested and hauled off to prison. So Snowden tells Greenwald that the plan is on, and it's time to move.

• 37:17Lindsay Graham?

  Four days later, Edward Snowden stretches out on the floor of a crowded apartment in Hong Kong. He crosses his eyes and sticks out his tongue. And as he pitches his voice with a silly warble, a young girl across the room erupts in laughter. Snowden grins. It's been a rough few days, but this, making a little girl laugh, is a bright spot. Snowden contorts his face, getting more giggles out of the young girl. And as he leans back against a wall, Snowden looks out over this ramshackle apartment, amazed that his life has changed so dramatically. Right now Snowden is tucked away in a safe house in one of the poorest neighborhoods in Hong Kong. His lawyer found the spot and said Snowden would be safe there. So far, the plan seems to be working.

• 38:01Lindsay Graham?

  Everyone is looking for Snowden in five-star hotels. I don't suspect he's living in a place the size of a shoebox, or that he's huddled together with five roommates from Sri Lanka and the Philippines. Like Snowden, these adults and children are waiting to see if Hong Kong will grant them asylum. It's a difficult state of legal limbo. And as someone who plans everything down to the last detail, Snowden is struggling with his current situation. He knows he has to apply for asylum as a political refugee, but before he can do that, the American government has to charge him with a crime. Until that happens, all Snowden can do is sit around and wait.

• 38:42Lindsay Graham?

  Snowden makes another face at the little girl and gets another big laugh. Even though the lodging is poor, he likes these people. He relates to their pain. Snowden sticks out his tongue and is about to make another cartoonish noise when his phone rings. It's his lawyer. "Hey, Robert, what's the latest?" "Hey, Ed, got some news. The government has now officially charged you with three felonies: theft of government property, unauthorized communication of defense information, and the third is unauthorized communication of classified intelligence. Basically, everything we expected." "Okay, yeah. I mean, I gotta admit, it feels a little different when it's actually real." So what's their next move?

• 39:27Lindsay Graham?

  They're gonna try and get Hong Kong to extradite? No, not yet. And that means we've got some time, so I think we need to plan. Now, obviously, you could return to the United States and face trial. No, out of the question. I've already admitted to the crimes they've accused me of. They'll just lock me up. Well, Ed, I wasn't advocating for a trial. I'm just presenting the options. Okay. Yeah, sorry to snap. What's option two? Option two is we apply for asylum in Hong Kong. We'd argue that the US is charging you with a political crime, and therefore, you're a political refugee. In that case, you could not be extradited. But I have to admit, it's a long shot. Still, worth a try. And if that doesn't work? Well, we're reaching out to other countries,

• 40:11Lindsay Graham?

  trying to see if anyone's willing to grant you asylum. That sounds like a long process. Yeah, it may be. What do I do in the meantime? Well, for now, just sit tight in the safe house. Try to get some rest. But Ed, I wouldn't be doing my job if I didn't say something to you. You need to start getting mentally prepared. If Hong Kong denies you asylum, they will honor an extradition request. And if that happens, we're gonna have to move very fast.

• 40:39Lindsay Graham?

  Snowden nods, trying to absorb this grave possibility. His lawyer isn't saying it explicitly, but if Hong Kong won't grant him asylum, he's gonna have to go on the run. He's facing a potential life sentence back in the United States, and he's not yet ready to give up and march into a prison. So right now, Snowden's only option is to wait. He hopes at least one country will stand up to the United States and make a definitive statement about democracy and the importance of whistleblowers. But if that doesn't happen, or if this continues to drag out, Snowden may have to take his chances and flee, going somewhere far from Hong Kong and somewhere even farther from the United States.

• 41:22Lindsay Graham?

  From Wondery, this is episode three of Edward Snowden from American Scandal. In our next episode, Snowden flees Hong Kong, he faces unexpected complications as the US government works to bring him to trial. American Scandal is only possible because of listeners like you, so thank you. And don't miss an episode. Be sure to follow American Scandal on Audible or wherever you get your podcasts. And Audible subscribers can binge new seasons of American Scandal early and ad-free right now. Join Audible in the Audible app or by subscribing on Apple Podcasts. And to find out more about me, including my other podcasts, my live show, the history tours I'm arranging, and all sorts of other things, go to historyishuman.com.

• 42:07Lindsay Graham?

  That's historyishuman.com. If you'd like to learn more about Edward Snowden, we recommend the books No Place to Hide by Glenn Greenwald, Permanent Record by Edward Snowden, and the documentary Citizen Four, directed by Laura Poitras. This episode contains reenactments and dramatized details. And while in most cases we can't know exactly what was said, all our dramatizations are based on historical research. American Scandal is hosted, edited, and executive produced by me, Lindsay Graham, for airship. Audio editing by Molly Bach, sound design by Derek Behrens, music by Lindsay Graham. This episode is written by Austin Rakhless, edited by Christina Malsberger. Our senior producer is Gabe Riven.

• 42:46Lindsay Graham?

  Executive producers are Stephanie Jens, Jenny Lauer-Beckman, and Marsha Louie for Wondery.

• 42:56Speaker 09

  Journalist Tristan Redman goes where no son-in-law should ever go. Deep into his wife's family history, digging up the cold case of who murdered her great-grandmother. Because, I should mention, he thinks the murderer might actually be the beloved family patriarch. For the best bingeable series like Ghost Story, listen to the Audible True Crime Podcast wherever you get your podcasts.