20VC: Startups Only Fail When Founders Stop Trying, Why the Two Weeks Following Our IPO Were the Worst of my Life & Why Tieing Your Identity to Your Company is the Most Dangerous Thing and How to Avoid It with Sami Inkinen, Co-Founder & CEO @ Virta Health

Sami Inkinen is the Co-Founder and CEO of Virta Health, the company reversing type 2 diabetes. Before Virta, Sami was the Co-Founder of Trulia, steering the company to a successful IPO and its eventual sale to Zillow Group. Outside of the boardroom, he launched Fat Chance Row, a daring venture to row 2,750 miles across the Pacific, unsupported with his wife, rowing 18 hours straight per day. In Today's Episode with Sami Inkinen: 1. From Farm in Finland to IPO Founder: Relationship to Money How did Sami's humble upbringing on a farm in Finland impact his early mindset and ambition? How does Sami analyze his relationship to money today? How has it changed over time? Why was the two weeks following Trulia's IPO the worst two weeks of his life? 2. The Secret to Marriage: Rowing 2,750 Miles Together: What are some of the biggest lessons on marriage Sami has from spending 45 days rowing the Pacific with only his wife for company? What was their single biggest argument over the 45 days? What did Sami learn from it? Sami worked with his wife, what are the biggest pros and cons of working with your spouse? Would Sami recommend it? What does Sami believe are the core fundamentals that underpin the best marriages? 3. The Secret to Parenting: The Regret of Delegation: What is Sami's biggest regret when it comes to parenting? How does Sami think about what it means to be a great father today? How has that changed? How did Sami's relationship with his wife change when they had kids? 4. Relationship to Identity: Why does Sami believe tieing your identity to the company, as a founder, is so dangerous? How does Sami advise on creating multiple personas to prevent this? Why does Sami believe that all the best founders are addicts to some extent?

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Speaker 00

  Startups and companies only fail when founders stop trying. Startups only fail when founders stop trying. If you're a CEO, you're a founder, you have to treat yourself like an Olympic athlete. So tying your identity to your company, it is a natural process. And I think that's very dangerous, very dangerous.

• 0:20Harry Stebbings?

  This is 20 VC with me, Harry Stebbings. And this show is very different to many of the others, which are more startup focused that we do. Today's show focuses on relationships to money, identity, marriage. It's an incredible and broad ranging discussion with a man who's taken a company public, rode across the Pacific unsupported with his wife, rowing 18 hours per day, and now changing the world of healthcare with Virta Health. I'm so excited to welcome back to the show Sammy Incanon after seven years since his last appearance. This was such a special one for me to do. But before we dive into this incredible discussion, there's no shortage of helpful AI tools out there. But using them means switching back and forth between yet another digital tool. What was supposed to simplify your workflow just made it way more complicated.

• 1:05Harry Stebbings?

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• 3:03Speaker 00

  You have now arrived at your destination.

• 3:06Harry Stebbings?

  Sammy, I am so excited for this. I cannot believe it has been seven years since we last did this, but thank you so much for joining me today.

• 3:16Speaker 00

  Well, Harry, thanks for having me back. Time flies when you're having fun, right? Seven years.

• 3:21Harry Stebbings?

  I mean, it totally does. You look freaking younger. I look older significantly. But I want to start with a little bit of backstory because I think so much actually goes back to childhood. I'm just intrigued. Take me to your childhood. Where did you live? How was that relationship with your parents?

• 3:38Speaker 00

  Yeah, well, I grew up in Finland, 200 miles northeast of Helsinki, very close to the wonderful border with Russia. And so I grew up on a farm and it was a gentleman's farm, I guess I could say, in that my parents were factory workers. So we had a farm, lots of manual labor. I was their manual labor. So very kind of humble beginnings, picking potatoes, feeding chickens. And so that's kind of how I was growing up. And I would say two things about my upbringing. In some ways, it was very kind of romantic in that growing up on a farm, I could climb the trees and it was very safe. And like, it was a wonderful, wonderful. Place to live, I would say that that's sort of the one thing.

• 4:22Speaker 00

  But the second thing I would say, I absolutely had no professional role models. And the fact that I'm living in America today, building a company, and I have been here in the States for more than twenty years. My for my mom, it's still like, you know, I'm living in the moon or in the Mars. So it's a very, very kind of unlikely sequence of events. So my parents didn't even go to high school, they weren't professionally trained. So I had absolutely no role models of what might be possible beyond being a factory worker and, you know, picking potatoes to to feed the family.

• 4:54Harry Stebbings?

  What was it that opened your eyes to the world? Where did you get this sense of ambition and this desire to to conquer more of the world than the the farm in Finland?

• 5:03Speaker 00

  The truth is, I don't know. You know, obviously, I was reading a lot of magazines, computer magazines. I think even in Finland, you know, we had Fast Company and so forth. I could see that there's some that there's a larger, bigger world out there. And I got very excited about computers through the pages of magazines. And I somehow convinced my parents to find the money to buy a Commodore sixty four. Some of your listeners might be old enough to know that there was a computer called Commodore sixty four. So I actually got a computer before I turned ten. That kind of opened my eyes to what might be possible with this magical tool called a computer, which obviously my parents had no idea about.

• 5:45Speaker 00

  And I I was so drawn into the screen and the computer and what was possible with it, whether that was programming or simple games. And of course, my parents were always telling me, come back and come help us with with the farm work. Because nothing's gonna ever come out of that. Like, you're so addicted to that computer, which obviously it's been a fun line to drop to my mom and my parents, you know, decades later. Nothing's gonna come out of that. Well, my whole life and career has been built around that. This was late nineteen eighties, so computer wasn't wasn't the thing that people were talking about in the in the farmlands of Finland.

• 6:23Harry Stebbings?

  Can I ask you a question? Did you kind of know that you didn't have much money when you were growing up? Was that obvious to you in terms of kids at school having more, you not having much? Was that obvious?

• 6:33Speaker 00

  No, it wasn't. The reason is, in Finland, more or less everyone's middle class. So you're not exposed to the extremes. And what you see on TV and movies, the Hollywood, it's not the real world. At least at the time, you weren't exposed to the extremes. And I always felt comfortable. I had what I wanted. I had what I needed. So a couple of tools for sports, you know, whether it's cross-country skiing or running, you need sneakers. So I never felt like we were somehow missing out, surprisingly so. That said, I have to say, the reason we had a farm was to subsidize our own food. So we wouldn't need to spend all the money at grocery stores.

• 7:14Speaker 00

  I also remember we never had a new car. We saved a lot of money for many years to be able to buy a used car. We did one vacation trip with an airplane, but we couldn't afford to travel as a family. So it was me and my dad one year, and then my mom and my sister the following year. And so, obviously, in today's context, this idea that you can't afford to fly all four, that you can have half the family this year and half the family next year, that sounds pretty poor, doesn't it? But that's kind of how I was growing up. But I never felt like it was extraordinarily poor or suffering.

• 7:48Harry Stebbings?

  When did money start to become important to you?

• 7:51Speaker 00

  Honestly, I don't know if you believe my answer, but in some ways, never. I've always felt I've had enough at any given time because I've been pretty happy with very little. That said, ever since I was a kid, I've dreamed of what could be. But that what could be has never been about, I wish I had five thousand dollars or fifty thousand dollars or five hundred thousand dollars. But I've always dreamed of what could be in terms of living in a bigger circles, creating something for others. So I've always dreamed of like this life on a farm, picking potatoes, having a job nine to

• 8:33Speaker 00

  Five, getting drunk on a Friday evening, having hand over on a Saturday, going back to your factory work on a Monday morning. This is, this cannot be all there is to life, dreaming always going on as this part of my operating.

• 8:47Harry Stebbings?

  When you, do you have a fundamental need to be liked? Is that part of it?

• 8:51Speaker 00

  I think there's an element of that, but I would say, I, I think if I go to my core, you asked earlier, like upbringing. It was humble, wonderful begin beginnings, but feeling of I'm worthy. The moment I wake up definitely was not there. So I'm on the very, very unnecessarily hard on myself. I think one of the programming that I have, whether that's nature or nurture is I have to earn the right to exist through my actions every day. And there's a lot of that kind of drive that's in, inside of me. Less so, I want to be validated by others, but this kind of feeling of the fact that I exist as a human being,

• 9:34Speaker 00

  which should be enough. And honestly, it is enough. I can intellectually tell.

• 9:40Harry Stebbings?

  Is that why you do the sports? Like you are, you are an intense athlete and you do unbelievably hard things. Is that a desire to tell yourself that you're worthy? Like I can do this.

• 9:52Speaker 00

  I think less so, so, so there's a couple of things that I, I allocate my lifetime. And one of those is, is, is sports and physical activities. The reason I, I do all that and you know, the race triathlons and cycling and rode a boat from California to Hawaii with my wife at a rowboat. And we can, we can talk about, talk about those, at least the narrative that I have. It's a couple of things. First one is I want to experience the animal self, if that makes any sense. Breathing, sweating, the taste of blood in my mouth. At some level, you know, like in my bone marrow, that's a beautiful, beautiful feeling.

• 10:34Speaker 00

  And I sometimes jokingly tell people, I say, if you only have your body to transport your brain from one Zoom meeting to. Another, that is a very poor existence. Like the fact that we have our bodies and we are able bodied. That feeling of using my entire body, suffering, sweating, heart beating. It is a beautiful thing to have and I want to make most out of it. So that's one reason I I do a lot of sports. Honestly, it is very addictive and just fundamentally makes me feel bored in my body and in my mind. Very good and it allows me to be way more focused.

• 11:15Harry Stebbings?

  Do you have an addictive strain?

• 11:17Speaker 00

  Hundred percent.

• 11:18Harry Stebbings?

  Do you think, I think all, not all, but I think ninety five percent of great founders are addicts. Agree?

• 11:24Speaker 00

  Oh, hu- hundred percent, hundred percent. And I often tell my wife, I'm like, I'm so happy, I'm happily married. I'm so glad I haven't gone down the path of very dangerous addictions. But in almost anything I do, if one is good, I'll go for five and then I go for ten. And I have to really observe my own behavior and make sure that I don't go too far in anything. A hu- hundred percent.

• 11:50Harry Stebbings?

  How how do you do, how do you do that? Honestly, I haven't navigated that balance. I I think a lot of people followed my running when I started running a lot. And I went to running two or three times a week, a marathon, so two or three marathons a week. Sammy, my fucking knees are shot. I I can't run at all anymore. I didn't listen and I, how do you know where that line is?

• 12:09Speaker 00

  Well, I I I think the ability to observe yourself is an absolute superpower. Uh, which I personally have developed over years now, I'd say decades through through meditation. I guess the analogy I've sometimes used is, you know, you're in a computer software. So you know, like, you write code, you can have sort of runtime debugging mode. You can see the code line by line and and you can kind of find where. Get stuck. If you can observe your own thoughts or your own behavior, take like a step back and see what's happening. I think that's a kind of a superpower and I am not trying to pretend I'm like excellent at it.

• 12:48Speaker 00

  But I think cultivating the ability to observe your own thoughts and behavior is absolutely essential. Catching you and yourself and your behaviors and hopefully catch it before it goes too far. So that's one way in which I try to do that. And I'll just give you practical, somewhat silly examples. What am I addicted to? So certainly in in sports, like I try to be aware of why I'm doing it. You know, I I have a training log. I keep track of how much should I do? I try to be aware of when I'm getting too close, overreaching or overtraining, or I may be getting sick. So that's one example. Caffeine intake. People ask me, do you drink coffee? You it's the kind of person, you probably don't drink coffee. I'm like, absolutely, I do drink.

• 13:33Speaker 00

  And you know, my wife, you know, just kind of makes jokes and laughs at me, says, yeah, you you you you go from one cup to two, then you go to three, you go to four. And I'm absolutely the kind of person who could end up with seventeen espressos a day. And so I have to catch myself in that action. Work is no different. Like you could kind of absolutely pull me in. Anything and everything, absolutely, I have that sort of addictive streak and therefore like I I I have many reasons to stay away from recreational drugs and I'm absolutely certain that I could I could end up in a ditch very easily.

• 14:07Harry Stebbings?

  When did you first make your real money? Like, when was the first big hit of money for you?

• 14:12Speaker 00

  The one moment, so I and we sold a little bit secondary in kind of six figures with my company Trulia before it went public. Let's just say two thousand ten, we sold six figures in US dollars of of of secondary. And that's actually the only moment, the only single moment in my life where I felt or experienced this surge of, oh, my God, there's there's more money than I may ever need, which sounds funny to say, you can spend all the money in the world. That is the the one and only moment when I've experienced that.

• 14:46Harry Stebbings?

  Did you feel happy in that moment?

• 14:48Speaker 00

  Yeah, I I would say that's the only time I felt like, oh my god, I'm, you know, I I might have yelled like I'm I'm rich. I could see six-figure sum of cash on my checking account. Now, I'm I'm gonna share something really ridiculous. So I felt like I I have a lot of money. I I went to Best Buy in uh in San Francisco like, wow, I can buy anything. And I probably spent fifteen thousand dollars buying a Bose movie audio set, bunch of um iPods for music, this electronics, fifteen, twenty thousand bucks. Took them to my house. I spent another ten grand on on a bicycle for Triumph on time trial bike. That's all I needed. I probably spent twenty-five thousand.

• 15:32Speaker 00

  And I paid all my debt, like I paid all my, I had like a hundred thousand of of debt coming out of Stanford. I paid all that. It probably lasted forty-eight hours, that feeling of, oh my god, I have so much money, I don't know what to do, I can do, I can satisfy all my monetary needs and desires. And it was twenty-four hours, forty-eight hours, and I can honestly say since then, I've more or less never thought about money. But it was an interesting experience because leading into that, I knew that we had something some secondary. I'm like, wow, I'm gonna make bunch of money. I was dreaming about buying a car even. It was a forty-eight hour wave that kind of washed this idea that money is gonna give some eternal joy and happiness and

• 16:15Speaker 00

  then I got it and twenty-five dollars, twenty-five thousand dollars at Best Buy and I realized that it was just like any dopamine hit, it's like espresso and that is not gonna give you an eternal joy and satisfaction.

• 16:28Harry Stebbings?

  They must have loved you at Best Buy, but I I'm intrigued. When you go public with Trulia, you make a a ton more money. How did that feel? Because that's a feeling that founders, you know, we have seven hundred thousand founders that listen to the show. That is a feeling that they dream of, you know, we're not allowed to say that it is about the money today, but for a good chunk it is, and there's nothing wrong with that, I don't think. For those that listen and have that moment of IPO and when you are liquid, how did that feel for you?

• 16:58Speaker 00

  On New York Stock Exchange two thousand twelve. And I had left my operational role a few months before that, so I was still on the board. So I did not have a full-time job, so I was kind of a free agent by choice and by design. I was living in New York in Chelsea with my wife. We had no kids and the company goes public and yeah, there was some secondary sale was part of that. So objectively speaking, there was some very liquid wealth created in that instant moment. The two weeks after that in my life were probably the worst that I've ever had in my life. Here's what happened. I remember it was one Tuesday or Thursday, random day in the middle of the week,

• 17:41Speaker 00

  walking to Chelsea Piers to do my morning workout at like ten o'clock in the morning. And I remember something wasn't working in our apartment, whether it's the washing machine or something. Something was just broken and was sort of annoying me and I'm walking to Chelsea Piers on Manhattan. And and that feeling of that thing's not working was creating anxiety. And I was just feeling very disappointed about it. And then suddenly I feel this sort of panic attack is about to come over. I'm like, wait a second, I have a wonderful wife, I'm in my thirties, I have a ton of money in a bank. I'm living in New York, I can do whatever I want. This should be the peak, the ultimate peak moment in human joy and satisfaction.

• 18:26Speaker 00

  And here I am, I'm getting anxious, disappointed, aggravated about some silly thing not working. And my mind goes, wait a second, I'm in my thirties, I may have sixty years or more of this left. This is not going to end well. What the heck is going on? Like, I should be happy, I'm not, and I'm getting anxious about the silliest and the stupidest thing. And I got, I was about to freak out, I got very, very worried about what is happening. So that was probably the one of the like a single lowest moment I've I've experienced in my life. And I'll just quickly mention, I realized pretty soon after, a few days later, that up to that point in my life, I had always kind of chased the next carrot in front of my nose.

• 19:09Speaker 00

  Not money, but some exciting thing or project, I was always busy chasing the next thing. And I had never, ever stopped. And being alone with my thoughts, with my mind. I was always busy doing the next thing. And I had never kind of stopped, quote unquote, being alone with my thoughts when there's nothing to do. And everything should be perfect. Everything wasn't perfect. And I realized that I've trained my mind through education with knowledge. I've trained my body as an athlete, but I had never gotten to know my own mind. It was the freakiest moment to realize like, holy shit, there's a whole thing happening. I've never been aware of what's happening, how it's working, because I'd be busy doing the next thing.

• 19:54Speaker 00

  And so the answer to your question, that moment of the company going public, you know, I could do anything in my life. Actually, was the lowest point in my life, absolutely completely lowest point in my life.

• 20:04Harry Stebbings?

  Do you think it's because you were suddenly directionless for the first time? There was no next carrot. What now?

• 20:10Speaker 00

  I'm glad I was married. I'm glad I had a wonderful wife and spouse who woman I'm still married to. Because if I was single, living in New York, suddenly a lot of money, suddenly a lot of time. And I'm feeling kind of rather less and anxious. That would definitely would have been an optimal moment to go down the wrong path, wrong addictions. And believe that, oh, I'm just missing something which you can maybe able to find from Vegas. I'm so glad I did not go go down that path. We decided to go, we as in me and my wife, we decided to go to a ten day silent meditation retreat in Taiwan soon after to address this weakness. So to answer your question, and I've been a meditator ever since, so that's more than a decade ago.

• 20:55Speaker 00

  Yeah, I had never been aware of how the mind works and what's happening there. And if the mind is running you, you're gonna be in trouble. And you can fool yourself pretending that the next thing in in front of your nose is the thing you have to do. But if you've never actually stopped and see what's happening in your mind, you are just kind of a train wreck waiting to happen. And I had literally, I had never had that moment where I would truly stop and say, hey, now now I can do anything.

• 21:27Harry Stebbings?

  Was that very scary for you?

• 21:29Speaker 00

  Absolutely. Like literally, I I was on the verge of, I I don't think I've ever had a real panic attack. But I could feel it panic coming over me. What? Why is this happening? I should be just happy here and like levitating in air.

• 21:41Harry Stebbings?

  It's hard to stare at the demons, so to speak. Can I ask you, it's even harder to talk about them. But we're so ingrained that vulnerability is great and vulnerability is great. And if you feel it, you should say it. I'd love to hear your thoughts on vulnerability versus authenticity and how you think about what they are and when the right time is.

• 22:02Speaker 00

  I feel very strongly that authenticity is something to aspire towards 100% of the time. I try to be the same, more or less the same person as a spouse, as a friend, as a dad, as a CEO, as a founder, whatever, a professional. I try to be the same person. But I think aspiring to be 100% authentic, 100% of the time, including here with you, that's what I aspire to be. And I think that's probably a wonderful way of living your life. It's also very liberating. It's like, this is who I am and this is kind of what I do. I'm not faking or trying to play a role or put a mask on or 15 masks on. So authenticity, I think, 100% of the time, I think that's right.

• 22:45Speaker 00

  However, vulnerability is a little different beast.

• 22:49Harry Stebbings?

  But did you ever feel like you were putting a mask on often?

• 22:52Speaker 00

  Oh, 100%.

• 22:53Harry Stebbings?

  When was that and what mask were you putting on?

• 22:55Speaker 00

  I think even coming to America, you know, in my twenties and being very insecure. You know, I went to Stanford for my second grad school and starting from there, you come from the potato fields of Finland. And like everything, you're like, oh my God, I'm not going to be able to swim. I'm going to sink here. So you're very insecure and just try to hide your vulnerabilities and always trying to think like, how do I behave here to appear as competent and confident as possible? Which is very draining. It's extremely draining. It's horrible. So I think that's an example of not being truly authentic. But then the other part of your question was vulnerability. I think it is also a superpower to be able to be vulnerable, but.

• 23:38Speaker 00

  Being hundred percent vulnerable in hundred percent situations, I think that's a recipe for disaster. Depending on what kind of bear you meet on a trail, sometimes you have to act big, loud and noise and pretend that they, so they run away and for some type of a bear, you really just wanna go down and pretend like, you know, you're dead and that's how you save your body. So anyway, that's kind of a silly example. It's the same thing in interacting with humans. And so one example, you know, I'm a CEO, founder of company, five hundred employees, ironic, I try to be hundred percent authentic, hundred percent of the time. And I also am vulnerable, but I don't want to be a hundred percent vulnerable a hundred percent of the time.

• 24:18Speaker 00

  The team will feed off of your energy. So I don't think you want to be in front of your team and be sharing about all the issues you may have with your kids or with your friends or with your spouse or or even all your fears, because the team will sort of feed off of your energy. So there are times when you want to be optimistic. Maybe there are times you wanna be overly optimistic. But I, I do think that it is not optimal to be a hundred percent vulnerable a hundred percent of the time.

• 24:47Harry Stebbings?

  Question for you, are they not conflicting? And what I mean by that is, say you're having a really hard time in the stage of the business and then you get up or you come into work and putting on the brave face and saying, we're great, all good, it's not authentic. Or you're having a really hard time with your wife or your kids or whatever, you're struggling. Is it not inauthentic to then not be transparent?

• 25:12Speaker 00

  Our brain is just, it's just sort of a random generator machine. And this idea of say, I, I'm gonna never lie. Therefore, I should be saying everything that comes to my mind. That's a stupidity. Like our brain is gonna generate, if you walk on a street and you see people, your brain's generating, judging people and their looks and this and that. To be honest and authentic doesn't mean you say everything that comes to your mind. So I don't think it's, that's kind of how I think about it. We have prefrontal cortex, we can decide most of the time, some of the time, what comes out of our mouth. So I don't think it's uh being inauthentic. And at this one, I'll keep you an example, like vulnerability. Like I have cried countless times in front of my, my team as a CEO. That to me is vulnerability.

• 25:56Speaker 00

  There are moments when we treat people with diabetes, we reverse their disease, we save their lives. And it's, they are heartbreakingly amazing stories, heartbreaking and amazing stories that we hear from our patients. Sometimes I hear those stories and it just literally makes me cry from sort of joy and happiness and gratitude. So that's one example. I've cried in front of my team.

• 26:16Harry Stebbings?

  Can you take me to a time when you've been too vulnerable and you reflect on it and you go, hmm, that was too vulnerable of me?

• 26:23Speaker 00

  Honestly, I don't think that's been my problem. It's been the opposite and I'll give credit to my wife because I suddenly grew up in Finland and kind of a Iceman. And so she has melded my heart to the extent that I can even feel my own emotions and feelings. So I think my issue historically has been to not feel anything, meaning I'm not sufficiently in, in touch with my own feelings and emotions. So I, I think my problem has been that I haven't been sufficiently vulnerable, invested all my energy to not be vulnerable. So I actually, I can't even think of where I've been too vulnerable. I still have room to be more vulnerable is, is my take.

• 27:00Harry Stebbings?

  Does your wife work? You, you are a incredible CEO, you're also a very dedicated athlete and you have kids. Does she work or does she look after the kids full time?

• 27:11Speaker 00

  Yes and no. I co-founded Virta, uh, two thousand and fourteen, we had no kids. We got our first daughter two thousand and fifteen, so the first year of a startup, second one two thousand and seventeen. And my wife was one of the very, very first employees for, for the first six years of the company life. So we had two children, two working parents, working in the same company. That was startup from zero to six years and zero to, I don't know, three hundred employees. And for the last two years, she has not worked full time.

• 27:42Harry Stebbings?

  Was that okay working together?

• 27:45Speaker 00

  Is very high beta. So amplitude is very high. It's beautiful and wonderful when you're both excited about the mission and the course and you can spend the weekends being creative, talk about ideas. And so that's the sort of positive high beta. It's absolutely amazing. Then you have the negative high amplitude, high beta, when things aren't going well, the company scales, you have your spouse, you know, you have sort of interpersonal issues. So I, my recommendation to everyone is, it's very high beta, I would probably advise against because then you have too many eggs in the same basket. And if things go sideways, you can destroy your most important personal relationship in a process.

• 28:26Speaker 00

  So the cost of that, I would argue, is way too much for the joys and ops that you can have while creating something together. And one of the reasons, I can't speak on behalf of my, my spouse, but one of the reasons she decided that, okay, time is up, six years was great, was the risks of damaging our relationship were just increasing.

• 28:48Harry Stebbings?

  Can I ask you, did it enable you to be a better operator when she became a full-time parent? Because it meant that you were enabled in a way that you weren't before.

• 28:57Speaker 00

  She's absolutely amazing, but I, I think she would admit that we outsource too much of childcare during those first six years of the life of our kids. So it did not fundamentally change how I've operated, but our kids probably took the short end of the stick for six years.

• 29:17Harry Stebbings?

  Do you regret that?

• 29:18Speaker 00

  It is what it is. They are wonderful kids. I just did a one-on-one trip with the eight-year-old to my native Finland over the, the holiday weekend and I, I tried to do my best. But yeah, I'll be more honest. I, I think we both feel that having nannies raise your kids is not optimal.

• 29:35Harry Stebbings?

  I get you, but I'm also going to be kind to you. You are running a, a three hundred person plus company at the time. What do you want? You can't have everything. And so what would you have done differently with the benefit of hindsight? Not be as ambitious and not be such a good operator, but be there for the kids?

• 29:52Speaker 00

  I think. Yeah, it's tough to say, but I I will say that um if you have an amazing spouse and one of them has a more flexible schedule, it's it's probably very helpful for the kids and and for the relationship.

• 30:06Harry Stebbings?

  You've spoken a lot about your wife and the role that she's played. What what are the secrets to a great marriage in your mind, having had such a great relationship that's been such a support to you for many years?

• 30:16Speaker 00

  You test your spouse by rowing across the Pacific Ocean and see if you both survive and you still want to be married after that.

• 30:23Harry Stebbings?

  Why did you do this? And just talk to me about it. Like, what did you learn about each other from rowing across the Pacific Ocean together?

• 30:31Speaker 00

  Just for context, so so yeah, in in summer two thousand fourteen, from Monterey, California, we hopped into a rowboat, twenty foot roughly rowboat, unsupported, rowed across the Pacific Ocean, twenty seven hundred nautical miles to to Hawaii. Forty five days, three hours with your spouse, all the time. Your your bathroom is a bucket, then you throw it overboard. In terms of learnings with your spouse, I honestly, it was so many things happened, absolutely life transforming in in in many ways. I'll start with the biggest one. So we had no children going in. We are seven days into the row. We are rowing eighteen hours a day, basically nonstop, trying to sleep five hours or so a day. We're seven days into the row.

• 31:13Speaker 00

  I tell my wife, I said, hey, wow, this is an amazing experience, but I'd be wondering, what is there truly to human experience? What is there truly to life? I honestly think there's nothing bigger and better than having a family, having children. I I feel like we should have a family. She looks at me and says, I can't believe I've been thinking about the exact same thing for the last twenty four hours. And we got married with this mutual understanding that maybe kids, maybe not, life's too good, at least at the time, to mess it up with with children. So that was one thing, like literally within a twenty four hour window, this feeling of as a human, what is there to do? What's the do you want to have your name on the side of the hospital?

• 31:56Speaker 00

  Do you want to build three companies, sponsor product, whatever you want to do, be this, write a book? I just hit me. All those are fine and good if you enjoy the process of creating those, but it is so shallow, so shallow. Having children is a great thing. So so that was one thing. We came out of the boat. In fact, we tried on the boat, but let's leave the details aside.

• 32:18Harry Stebbings?

  No, that was that was gonna be my question. Can you can you shag on a rowing boat?

• 32:23Speaker 00

  You you can, but it's not very hot. Let's put it this way. But yeah, so first child was born just about nine months after we landed in Hawaii, just about nine months. The second thing is probably the sweetest moment in my life ever has been hopping off the boat on Waikiki Beach and giving a hug to my wife after forty five days and three hours rowing. And knowing that there's only one person in the world who knows exactly what we went through, the pain, the suffering, the fears, and that's my wife. Only one person in the world who knows exactly what we went through, she went through it. And knowing she could get through that, that feeling and trust,

• 33:08Speaker 00

  that it was just pure sweetness to give her a hug and know that if we can get through that and we have that shared experience, you need quite an obstacle that two of us will crack and fall apart in the following decades. And so that was the second thing. It was just like, holy shit. This is an amazing experience we have and we both get through it. We've seen each other tired, stressed, anxious, about to fall apart, fearful, and we could just come together and and overcome all those obstacles.

• 33:40Harry Stebbings?

  What was the biggest argument you had on the trip? Forty five days, that is a long time. You only see each other. What was the biggest argument?

• 33:48Speaker 00

  So so one of the things you have is a lot of time and you have a captive audience. You can't escape. You can't be like, come on, I'm angry. I'm gonna walk that way. You walk that way. And let's let's talk about this in a week. You're both captive audience. So we had a lot of time to feel the airwaves and come up with ideas. We talked about how do you come up with, you know, peace in Middle East? What would you do if you were president of this and that country? All kinds of topics. And then one of the topics my lovely wife threw at me said, if you didn't marry me, which one of our friends would you marry?

• 34:19Harry Stebbings?

  Oh, no, Sammy, don't answer that question.

• 34:22Speaker 00

  As a as an engineer and a person driven by task completion, I was like, wonderful. That's a great question. Let me think. I I stepped into the mine and I I I took the bite and there was lots of material, lots of material for the conversations that followed on subsequent days. And and my my mostly my wife was upset that I chose the person that she had a way better recommendation. But anyways, that was the.

• 34:51Harry Stebbings?

  Oh, can I ask, was it hard to lose romanticism from it? You know, when you are peeing and pooing in a bucket, it's not the most elegant or graceful thing. Was that challenging to lose the just slight element of mysteriousness?

• 35:07Speaker 00

  There's the practical element of it. It's just like, kind of like gritty. Going back to authenticity and vulnerability, when you live through experiences like that, there's just something that brings you closer with the other person. Masks go away, literally and figuratively. This is the raw essence of the person. In the end, those types of experiences are actually more positive than negative.

• 35:33Harry Stebbings?

  Did you have moments when you thought, I can't do this? I cannot do this?

• 35:37Speaker 00

  Yeah, my, my wife pulled me out of it, actually.

• 35:40Harry Stebbings?

  Can you take me to one of them? What happened and why did you get in that mindset?

• 35:44Speaker 00

  It is interesting. First 10 days was incredibly stormy. We were scared to death to flip the boat and cold and Pacific Ocean, by the way, it's not dolphins and rainbows and, and, and sunshine. It's, it's very cold. So it was very stormy, windy, cold. And then also the wind was pushing so hard that despite our best efforts, while we were making about 40 miles a day, we were making like one mile a day towards the right direction and 40 miles to south. So we left like Northern California, so towards Mexico. So anyways, about a week of that, in my engineering mind, I was, I was doing the math. I'm like, we've done one mile a day and we have to get about 2,000 miles west.

• 36:28Speaker 00

  So that means 2,000 days. So, you know, that's six to seven years. Like this is not going to be happening. It's six to seven years. We had packed food for 100 days. So I, I kind of lost the, the belief that this is possible. And I started unraveling. I, I remember little things, brushing my teeth every day. I was like, I, I'm not going to brush my teeth. It psychologically, I started to sort of unravel. I'm like, this amount doesn't add up. And my wife was encouraging saying, well, we'll, we'll just keep grinding it. It's like, if it's a mile a day towards the right direction, it's a mile a day. If it's two miles, it's a two miles. If I was alone, I probably would have quit at that point. We just kept going. Then we got lucky that the winds calmed down and we started to make 60 miles a day

• 37:13Speaker 00

  progress towards the right direction. But I probably would have given up. Had it been just me?

• 37:18Harry Stebbings?

  I've I've had my challenges and my fair share in the time that we last did this show, you know, over the last seven years. And when things are really shit and really hard and I can't see a way out, I actually think of David Goggins, who who says one thing, which is like, in those times, I ask myself one question, which is, can you take one more step?

• 37:36Speaker 00

  Yeah, startups and companies, founder-driven startups, companies only fail when founders stop trying. Startups only fail when founders stop trying. And I think that's hundred percent true. Obviously, there is a point when stubbornness goes too far and you're literally wasting your lifetime. And you're literally just not gonna go anywhere. To know that, there's no formula, it's very idiosyncratic. And that is the challenge oftentimes for people who have grit, people who have perseverance, for founders.

• 38:13Speaker 00

  Like, you cannot give up, but sometimes you have to give up. I don't I don't think there's formula, but that sort of art and science oftentimes in a lot of. Like, you need grit, you need perseverance. We have a word, sisu in Finnish. Like, you just don't give up. You just persevere.

• 38:30Harry Stebbings?

  But that's not enough, sadly. But markets can kill you, shit GTM can kill you, lack of funding can kill you. There are many things other than a founder giving up that kills you, I've learned. Now, you, there's a question of if you invest in great founders, they find the market, they find the product, which I don't agree with either. There's great founders who fuck up for several years doing something that they shouldn't do.

• 38:54Speaker 00

  Yeah, no, I I I cannot disagree with that, but the basic premise still is that as long as you're breathing. The company has money, so it's not defaulting or in bankruptcy. There's always hope. Like, you should never give up, but there's obviously a point in time where you're literally just wasting your time or you're you're cutting trees in the wrong forest. But to know that objectively is very, very hard, because you always have these stories, oh, we were building a gaming company and then it turned into a Slack. You've got these stories, these anomalies, but obviously those could be very detrimental decisions in another context.

• 39:31Harry Stebbings?

  Have you ever felt like I just don't wanna do this anymore?

• 39:34Speaker 00

  Yeah, I'll I'll give you two examples. Trulia is is is an easy example to start briefly. So when we were in the process of going public, I realized that it started to feel like a job. And I could not feel a deeper connection to the course of the mission. In fact, I didn't, I wasn't even sure what was the mission of the company, because we had not really set the mission as as founders. And I felt like the reasons for starting, which was, let's build something in Silicon Valley, and if we get investors and million, how cool would it be as an immigrant to build a product, build a business, get investors, make it successful. And we kind of had done that. We had thousand plus employees,

• 40:15Speaker 00

  whatever, a hundred million plus revenues and tens of millions of people using it, company's about to go public, and I'm like, we've done it. But it's like job now, and I I literally just was not excited to do it anymore. And so I decided to step away from my operational role. And obviously, when the company goes public, you sign up for, you get a whole new set of investors and you sign up for the next decade. And I was like, I just cannot see it happening. And so so that was one. And by the way, there was a lesson for myself, which I I really take into heart with Virta Health, which is, you better set a mission as a founder that motivates even you, and it's a clear north star,

• 40:54Speaker 00

  why you're doing it, which isn't just like, oh, I'm excited today. That's a cool thing. So anyways, that's one example. Practically, I I just lost it. So that so that was one. The second example is.

• 41:05Harry Stebbings?

  Can I just start? Can I ask one thing? I like founders where they don't have a next chapter. Like, if you ask me what I'm doing next, I'm dead. I don't mean that stupidly, but I I want twenty VC to be the ongoing vehicle for the rest of my life. We will have new shows, new funds, new people, but twenty, I I am twenty VC and it is me. Do you think I'm wrong? And do you think I'll miss out on great founders if I have that approach?

• 41:30Speaker 00

  No, I I I I actually absolutely agree. And people sometimes ask me like, what what do you think you're gonna do next though? What's your next? And truly, the the honest answer is, that's ridiculous. That's like asking, who will you marry next? Who's the girlfriend you have on a hopper that you're gonna marry next? I am married to my wonderful wife and I hope it lasts forever. Statistically, unfortunately, statistics are against us, but like, we're gonna keep going as far as we go. The moment that there's a plan B, like it it's a last call. So I have no idea what I'm gonna do. No, that's not the point. I am, this is it. This is so exciting. So no, I I agree with you. This idea that, no, I have a list of three, I I'm just looking for someone to.

• 42:14Speaker 00

  I would feel very dissatisfied with with my life with that. So I don't know, I I agree with you.

• 42:20Harry Stebbings?

  The question I have then is people go, gosh, that's terribly unhealthy to tie so much of your identity up in your company. Is it?

• 42:28Speaker 00

  So tying your identity to your company, it is a natural process. It happens to almost all founders. But you have to hedge against this. I feel very strongly about this. You have to hedge against it. And here's how I do it. I think you want to consciously cultivate different identities in your brain. Whether that's being a parent. In my case, there's three things I allocate time. Being at the CEO of Virta, trying to reverse diabetes globally. As a parent, spouse, kind of family person friends, and then an athlete. So I have a very strong athlete identity in my mind.

• 43:05Speaker 00

  So I consciously cultivate different identities that are kind of non-correlated with my founder identity. And I think it's very, very important for everyone. And here's why. When things are going up and to the right in in your, say, company, it's sort of wonderful. Like, I am the company, I'm everything, but that never lasts forever, never. If you don't have other identities, the moments when things really hit the wall, it you you are very likely to crumple and crack. And I knock on wood here, I've been a founder operative now twenty five years, I haven't cracked. And I have too many friends who've completely cracked mentally, emotionally. But one way to protect against cracking is that you have multiple identities.

• 43:50Speaker 00

  And here's the second reason, you cultivate multiple identities, although fundamentally they are all stories, but the stories work. The second reason is it's easier to take risks, calculated risks. And taking risks as a growth company founder is absolutely critical to succeed. Almost like every couple of years, you need to bet the company on something to keep kind of winning and succeeding. And it's very easy as you grow and get further to become more risk averse. And I find that when you are sort of detached, but passionate about your cause, it's easier to put everything on the line again. You're like, well, this is not everything.

• 44:30Speaker 00

  And so I find that cultivating multiple identities is very, very healthy for every single founder. Because if you don't do that, it is very easy. You and your company, you are the thing and that's all you have. And I think that's very dangerous, very dangerous.

• 44:47Harry Stebbings?

  Speaking of dangerous, I am just intrigued. You said there about kind of friends around you who've burnt out, who have really struggled and cracked. When you look at them, what are the commonalities amongst them that made them crack, do you think? And for founders listening, wanting to go, oh gosh, I don't want that to be me. What do you say to them?

• 45:04Speaker 00

  Rather than saying what are the commonalities in those, I'll, I'll, I'll share what I have done, what I think is important. And usually people are lacking those things. So this is sort of three or four things that I very consciously invest time. One is foundation of health. Like I treat myself like an Olympic athlete, basically. And at this mind and body, to me, it's just all biology. It's one and the same thing. So this is a simple example, like if you don't sleep enough, like, oh my God, everything unravels. Like you're so more likely to become depressed and crack and whatnot.

• 45:34Harry Stebbings?

  How much time do you sleep?

• 45:36Speaker 00

  I average between seven and eight hours for the course of a week. And sometimes there's, you know, like last night, I think it was six point one hours. Sometimes it's crazy things happen, travel is four hours. But like, I try to get to the seven to eight average over the course of a week. Sometimes I even cancel morning meetings if I'm like too far and I need to like get nine hours or something to sleep. But anyways, that's one of the things. There's one area, foundation of health, and it's very easy to be twenty two and like, I'm hardcore. I'm just pulling all Niners or whatever. And like, do not do that. So one is foundation of health. To be able to be a founder, ten years, fifteen years, twenty years, like, there's no way that's gonna work, you know, with with all Niners. And just to give you an example, if you're an Olympic athlete, you have Olympic Games tomorrow, you are not gonna go party and pull an all nighter night before.

• 46:21Speaker 00

  That would be absolute stupidity. If if you're a CEO, you're a founder, you have to treat yourself like an Olympic athlete. That's one, foundation of health. Second one is what I already mentioned. I think cultivating multiple identities is so, so critical. The third one is having a trusted group of people who's not your spouse, where you can put your, let your short hair down and completely be vulnerable, authentic. To me, it's been the YPO, so Young Professionals Organization. I've been part of a forum for since two thousand eight, sixteen years. We meet for four hours every month. In fact, I had my forum meeting yesterday. We talk about personal, family, business.

• 47:01Speaker 00

  So you have other CEOs who have no financial interest or anything in your company, not your VCs, not your board members. We can absolutely let your hair down. That's where you can cry on other's shoulder and be absolutely hundred percent authentic and tell all the crap that's falling apart. Having that kind of a trusted group of people, particularly for men, I think it's harder. Is an absolute key thing. You need trusted. And this isn't just the CEO body that you meet at a conference and you're kind of like, how's it going? High five, awesome. No, it's like the raw shit that's going on in your life. You need that kind of a group.

• 47:36Harry Stebbings?

  Why do you think it's harder for men? I'm intrigued on that.

• 47:39Speaker 00

  Uh, well, I I I'm just quoting my uh, my lovely wife, who keeps telling me that we women, we we have way more sort of trusted friendships where we openly share. So I'm I'm taking that as a fact from her. This is stereotypes, but I I think men have more like casual friends where like we're good buddies, but don't necessarily go full. Layers deeper and like, honestly, let me just tell you, like, I still cry because my dad never gave me whatever bad pat on the back or what whatnot. So I, I don't know. On average, I think men have more buddies, but it's not that authentic and vulnerable necessarily. But having a group like a YPO forum is incredibly helpful.

• 48:20Harry Stebbings?

  Final one before we do a quick fry. I am intrigued. You know, you mentioned a little bit that, you know, you outsourced a lot parenting wise in the first six years. And now, you know, your wife obviously is full time. I'm intrigued. Just what does being a great father mean to you? And were you nervous being so on and so addictive mindset wise? That you would not be able to be a great operator when you have this incredible responsibility of children?

• 48:46Speaker 00

  I was not. And by the way, I read and I hear a lot about that. Well, I'm not gonna be such a great CEO. Wait a second, you you really have to take a step back and ask what is there to life and what am I here optimizing? And I was so convinced that the greatest thing I can experience as a human is to be a parent after our role. That I never questioned the fact that we want to have kids and how that's going to affect other parts of life. Like, I was so convinced that that is the right thing to do and then everything else will fall into place around it. So I I personally had no kind of, and obviously it changes.

• 49:27Speaker 00

  You know, people create stories like, well, because I'm a parent, I'm actually a better leader. It's like, maybe I am, maybe I'm worse. I honestly, I don't care. It is very clear to me. I want to be a parent. I wanted to have kids. I'm very grateful I have two wonderful daughters. Whatever the implications of that are on my other parts of life, then be it.

• 49:46Harry Stebbings?

  Did your marriage change post having kids?

• 49:49Speaker 00

  Personally, I've been married now since fourteen years. I think having joint projects, whether that's sort of self-development, self-discovery, children. Having joint projects, not just completely independent, having joint projects is incredibly helpful in a marriage. And children can be one of those where you're kind of together, you're learning. And stumbling and I I think it's wonderful. It's it's actually very, very helpful. That's not the only joint project we met. Obviously, we met in a professional context and things sort of personal development. And I I think it's it's wonderful to have joint projects where you're on a journey together. There is no destination. There's no arriving. It's like a lifelong journey. Very helpful, positive thing in a relationship.

• 50:32Harry Stebbings?

  Can I be really, really harsh? You have fun, you have respect, you have honesty, and you have sex. Rank them one to four. Fun, respect, honesty, sex.

• 50:46Speaker 00

  Wait, wait. Rank them as in how important are they in a relationship with your with your spouse? All I remember is sex. So say them again. Honesty.

• 50:57Harry Stebbings?

  Fun, fun, respect, honesty, sex.

• 51:01Speaker 00

  Um, actually, I think respect is probably the one, at least for me, being in a relationship with someone that I like truly, I'm wow, I respect this person. I'm learning from her. That carries a lot of things. I can't imagine being in a relationship with someone where I'm like judging in my mind like, wow, this person is smart enough or thoughtful and I'm not learning or wow, this like I just. Maybe the honesty is depends how you define it. Maybe that is the last one, like honesty in the sense that, you know, you don't always say everything that comes to your mind.

• 51:36Speaker 00

  I would put fun. Yeah, it's probably the second one. And I I will. One of the the the reasons I fell in love with my with my wife is first time we met, you know, it's like Thursday afternoon, we come off the car about to go to our first date. She starts dancing on a parking lot in in San Francisco at like whatever six P M. On a Thursday, just that. And for my, you know, finish kind of Iceman. I just look at it and I go, wait a second, wait a second. Life can be fun. Anytime, anywhere, and it was just incredible. I realized like, wow, the story that I believed in, that life is a grind and serious and hard and wow, that is a very, very limited way of

• 52:19Speaker 00

  looking at the world and your life. So I put fun very high, high up there and she has taught me so much about human experience and how amazing it can be and not taking yourself too seriously and, and choosing the games you play very carefully and just making every, every, every moment fun. And then physical attraction is, obviously it's very important, but it doesn't really, it doesn't really carry you over decades, I would say, if that's the only thing or the number one thing.

• 52:50Harry Stebbings?

  I, I, I totally agree. I think you've maintained some very good brownie points with this interview, by the way. So I think you've done a great job. Yeah, you're, you're in good shape. Listen, I want to move into a quickfire round. So I say a short statement, you give me your immediate thoughts. We're gonna start with a tough one, which is, what have you changed your mind on in the last 12 months?

• 53:10Speaker 00

  I am even less convinced. In fact, I'm absolutely convinced the world power doesn't exist, uh, uh, free will doesn't exist. So this idea that we, we have sort of a, a, a separate entity that makes, makes decisions, that is not tied into the deterministic world. I'm very convinced that that is an illusion and it's a very, very, very believable illusion in, in our minds, but it is an illusion. I've become even more convinced that that is the case. And it brings humility to realize that every human being is, is worthy. And however

• 53:50Speaker 00

  they behave, it keeps you humility to just think about it's their wiring and the circumstances that affect their decisions, not that there's a bad rider on the horse that somehow is inherently bad.

• 54:05Harry Stebbings?

  You said before, you treat, you said before, you treat your body like an athlete or an Olympian. What does the Sammy Incanan diet look like?

• 54:14Speaker 00

  There's three things you don't, the rules of Fight Club, you don't talk about in America. Politics, religion and diets, if you want to make friends. Politics, religion, diets. I'm very hesitant to to talk about that. Here here's kind of how I eat. Uh, I eat when I'm hungry, so that's number one thing. Two, I try to eat as much as real food. And if you're wondering, is something real food, it probably isn't because you know what real food is. And then a third one is outside of exercise, there's practically no sugar or processed carbohydrates. I eat when I'm hungry, not at set times. Mostly whenever I can, just real food. And then thirdly, no sugar and you don't really find sort of obvious carbohydrates in my diet.

• 54:54Harry Stebbings?

  The best founders do not need their VCs. Agree or disagree?

• 54:59Speaker 00

  It's false and here's why. The best founders recognize that this bundle, what VCs often deliver, is a bundle of three things. Capital, advice and for better or worse on the board governance. Capital, advice, governance, often is a bundle and you can't unbundle it. The best founders consciously choose a bundle that is very helpful for them. Even if they are capable of doing anything and they want to make most out of it. Rather than just say, I'm just gonna take the money. Because you usually get the bundle for free, so you you you choose carefully. So so that's why I say false.

• 55:37Harry Stebbings?

  What are the biggest mistakes you see other founders make in fundraising?

• 55:41Speaker 00

  They make it too transactional. By the way, I do a lot of angel invest in this. Because you you really, it's easier to get rid of your co-founder than your VC and on on the board. So too transactional, uh, and I'll give you an example. And this is sort of a silly example, but as an angel investor, I don't know, maybe Y Combinator, somebody teaches people this. Like I get these emails like, oh, I'd so love to have you on a cap table. Uh, so and so name is already there. There's no space, absolutely, but I can just make space for you. And but unfortunately, I I I need the answer by four P M. today. And it's it's almost like maybe chat G P T gives this template where you're famous name, sense of urgency. And then this is a special thing for you, ridiculously transactional.

• 56:24Speaker 00

  And it turns me off so bad, even if I wanted to help the founder and even if I've wanted to help the company. So I I think one is just making it too transactional.

• 56:32Harry Stebbings?

  Can I ask you for some advice? So I met this founder earlier this week. My partner was like, hey, we've got to meet him. It's a super hot deal. First five minutes, he's like, listen, love you, love 20 VC, but we, you know, we need to decide by the end of the week. And I'm like, great. Thank you so much. And cool is basically what I'm thinking bluntly. It's a 10 year relationship and I need to decide in two days, having never met you. Am I right? Or do you say, Harry, as a founder, suck it up? You need to move fast and make decisions?

• 57:04Speaker 00

  Truth is somewhere in the middle. As a principle and a foundational principle, I do think that it's very long term relationship. And drawing the line and like, okay, well, if that's what you want, like, sorry, we won't, won't do it. And by the way, 2021 and maybe 22 will be 2020. I think there were a lot of people who were like, ah, we should have done some DD. And take the time to get to know the founder and, and their morals and ethics and backgrounds and backgrounds and so forth.

• 57:33Harry Stebbings?

  Okay, Sammy, final one for you. 10 years time, where's Sammy Incanan then? And where's Virta then?

• 57:38Speaker 00

  That is a good question. 10 years. For context, I think what we are trying to do, which is really addressing obesity and type 2 diabetes by actually making people healthy. Unlike wonderful companies like Novo Notice that are selling drugs to treat the symptoms of diabetes and obesity. I think this journey of helping potentially billion plus people restore their metabolic health by addressing obesity and diabetes. That's like a 30 plus year journey. Like, I don't think this work is ever done. Hopefully we are a global company. Hopefully we are a counterbalance to company like Novo Notice that's selling drugs to treat symptoms of these diseases.

• 58:18Speaker 00

  Hopefully we are known as the lifestyle treatment version of a Novo Notice that is addressing the root cause of type 2 diabetes and obesity. And sort of globally known as a company that's doing good. I hopefully we are there and hopefully I'm still playing some kind of a key role in the company's growth and success. That's kind of how I'd like it to be.

• 58:38Harry Stebbings?

  Sammy, you are a star. I've loved doing this. Thank you so much for joining me. I can't believe it's been seven years, but you've been amazing.

• 58:45Speaker 00

  Well, thank you, Harry. Very much enjoyed it. And hopefully we'll, we can have the next one in less than seven years.

• 58:51Harry Stebbings?

  I absolutely loved that discussion with Sammy. I want to say a huge thank you to him for being so open and honest with some of those answers. Some of the questions were really quite prying and he was just an incredible guest and I just love doing that show and having that frank and honest conversation. If you want to see more of the show, you can check it out on YouTube by searching for 20VC, that's 20VC on YouTube. But before we leave you today, there's no shortage of helpful AI tools out there, but using them means switching back and forth between yet another digital tool. What was supposed to simplify your workflow just made it way more complicated, unless of course, you're in Notion. In Notion, you can automate the tedious tasks like summarizing meeting notes or finding next steps, really freeing you up to do the deep work that we all want to do.

• 59:35Harry Stebbings?

  And that's why Notion is used by over 50%, 50% of Fortune 500 companies and teams that use Notion send less emails, cancel more meetings and reduce spending on tools. Try Notion for free when you go to notion.com/20vc. And speaking of amazing products like Notion there, I'd like to talk to you about a company called Digits. They're a full-service AI accounting company and if you're in need of an accountant or looking to switch, there's no better solution than Digits. Starting at just $350 a month, which is less than half of what you'd pay a traditional firm, Digits is the most accurate, most efficient solution on the market. They've developed proprietary AI technology that automates tedious financial tasks and

• 1:00:19Harry Stebbings?

  delivers reports for the actual close of the month, not two to three weeks later as always. And they also allow you to keep track of key metrics like revenue, burn, cash flow and runway in an incredible live dashboard. The best part of all of it, this is vetted and signed off by their in-house CPAs. If you're interested, visit digits.com/20vc to claim your special offer today. That's digits.com/20vc. And finally, travel on the expense and never associated with cost savings, but now you can reduce costs up to 30% and actually reward your employees. How? Well, Nirvan rewards your employees with personal travel credit every time they save their company money.

• 1:01:00Harry Stebbings?

  When booking business travel under company policy, does that sound too good to be true? Well, Navan is so confident you'll move to their game changing all in one travel corporate card and expense super app that they'll give you $250 in personal travel credit just for taking a quick demo. Check them out now at navan.com/20vc.

• 1:01:21Speaker 00

  As always, I so appreciate all your support and stay tuned for an incredible episode with the OG of M&A, Frank Quitrone, coming on Friday.