The Psychology Behind Why You're Still Broke | George Kamel

You can earn half a million dollars a year and still have nothing left by the end of the month. That's not a theory. A Goldman Sachs study found 40% of people making over $500,000 are living paycheck to paycheck. The income isn't the problem. The identity is. George Kamel, #1 national bestselling author of Breaking Free from Broke and co-host of The Ramsey Show, has taken thousands of calls from people who earned great money and lost it all. People who confused looking rich with building wealth. Couples who kept separate bank accounts right up until the marriage fell apart. His take: debt is never just a math problem. It's a behavior problem. And no budget in the world sticks until you decide what kind of person you're going to be with money. In this conversation, George breaks down why buy now pay later apps are engineered to increase your cart size by 40%, why prediction markets like Polymarket are doing to young men what gambling apps did to the last generation, and why the moment someone calls a financial decision an "opportunity," they've usually already started justifying a terrible one. The path to financial peace is simpler than you've been told. And it starts with creating friction, not removing it. Breaking Free From Broke: The Ultimate Guide to More Money and Less Stress Amazon Ebook Audiobook Smart Money Happy Hour George Kamel YouTube George's Instagram In this episode you will: Discover why debt is a psychology problem, not a math problem, and the identity shift you must make before any budget will actually stick Recognize the doom loop of emotional spending and how buy now pay later apps are designed to make you spend more, feel worse, and repeat the cycle Learn the seven Ramsey Baby Steps framework that has helped millions get out of debt and build real generational wealth Apply the SMART Spender framework from Breaking Free from Broke to make intentional purchases without guilt or impulse Understand how financial infidelity quietly destroys marriages and the warning signs hiding in plain sight For more information go to https://lewishowes.com/1936 For more Greatness text PODCAST to +1 (614) 350-3960 Follow The Daily Motivation for essential highlights from The School of Greatness More SOG episodes we think you’ll love: Lewis Howes Solo [5 Money Habits To Financial Freedom] Dan Martell Vivian Tu TOPICS George Kamel, financial freedom, debt snowball, Baby Steps, financial infidelity, lifestyle creep, doom loop, buy now pay later, SMART Spender framework, Breaking Free from Broke Get more from Lewis! Get my New York Times Bestselling book, Make Money Easy! Get The Greatness Mindset audiobook on SpotifyText Lewis AIYouTubeInstagramWebsiteTiktokFacebookX Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00George Kamel?

  Nobody really cares how you live your life, what kind of car you drive. It's really just how secure are you? It's insecure people who have the hardest time building wealth. Because every dollar has to be spent flexing to look rich instead of becoming wealthy.

• 0:14Lewis Howes?

  He is a number one national bestselling author, a co-host of The Ramsey Show, and one of the top personal finance experts. We have the inspiring George Kamel in the house.

• 0:23George Kamel?

  I found out over 60% of people 35 and under, social media is their number one source of financial advice. So you're watching a TikTok of a guy telling you to go open up this whole life insurance policy, to borrow money tax-free, and then go buy 10 pieces of property. All they're doing is being over-leveraged, trying to get rich quick. And they're gonna fall flat on their face, or worst case, buy the guy's course for $3,000, and then be broke after that.

• 0:45Lewis Howes?

  What does true financial freedom look like to you?

• 0:51George Kamel?

  I think it comes down to...

• 0:54Lewis Howes?

  If someone puts a million dollars away in their early twenties, how quickly would that get to 2 million?

• 1:00George Kamel?

  Well, it doubles about every seven years. If you get a 10% rate of return, which is what we've seen in the S&P 500 over the last 50, 60 years, it doubles about every seven years. So 1 million turns to 2 million. So let's say from 23 to 30, that's pretty wild. And so 2 million turns to 4 million, 4 to 8, 8 to 16. And you're going, okay, now you're in your 40s with 16 million because you got started early. Now, it's depressing for everyone watching who's going, George, must be nice. I didn't have a million dollars at 23. Yeah, neither did I.

• 1:30Lewis Howes?

  You might have 10 grand maybe at the end of the year if you're lucky, right? Or if you really saved well at 23, 25, like you gotta start somewhere.

• 1:38George Kamel?

  Yes. But the people who wait and go, well, I want to enjoy life now, investing is for later me, you're gonna regret that once you see how the math works on it. And I always tell people, the best time to plant the tree was 20 years ago. The next best time is today. And so drop the baggage and the shame and the regret and just go, hey, there's someone else out there who's even older than me who wishes they started at my age.

• 1:57Lewis Howes?

  What is the mindset that needs to change in people in order for their bank account to change?

• 2:04George Kamel?

  There's a lot of delayed gratification missing from today's culture and it's not all your fault. Like, marketing, companies, technology, it all exists to create everything to be frictionless. So that your money passes through your fingers like sand. And the problem is if you don't grab a hold of it and make a plan for it before the marketing companies do, it's over. It's game over. Your bank account's gonna be back to zero and you're gonna be paycheck to paycheck. And here's what's crazy, Louis. You would think, well, people who make more money, it's much easier for them. I just saw a Goldman Sachs study. Forty percent of people who make over $500,000 are paycheck to paycheck. So it's not always

• 2:47George Kamel?

  the case that you make more, you're just gonna save more. If you don't get control of it, your lifestyle creep will just rise up to meet you. You'll have a bigger car payment, a bigger house. So forty percent of people making over a half a million dollars a year are living paycheck to paycheck? They're broke. There's nothing left in the month after they make all of their payments. How is that possible? That's my question. Now, if you listen to The Ramsey Show, you'll go, oh, I see how it's possible. They overextended themselves, overleveraged, got way too big of a house too soon because now you have to live a $500,000 lifestyle. There's expectations. You don't have to. Of course you don't have to. This is sarcasm, by the way. People watching are like, wow, this guy's an idiot. It's sarcasm. But there's expectations you put on yourself, expectations that your people around you put on you. And a lot of them are self-imposed,

• 3:32George Kamel?

  truthfully, because nobody really cares how you live your life, what kind of car do you drive. It's really just, how secure are you? The more secure you are, the better your ability to build wealth. It's insecure people who have the hardest time building wealth. Because every dollar has to be spent flexing to look rich instead of becoming wealthy. Wow, man. Would you say that emotionally immature people could make lots of money, but they usually lose it all? Oh, I mean, Dave Ramsey would tell you that. He'll be the first to tell you, he out-earned his stupidity in his twenties. He knew how to make money in real estate, but he was so overleveraged, so cocky about it, that he lost it all. Because there was so much risk in his life, and that's why we are so anti-debt.

• 4:16George Kamel?

  It's because debt equals risk, more debt equals more risk. And if you go on social media, which I found out over 60% of people 35 and under are getting, or social media is their number one source of financial advice. So you're watching a TikTok of a guy telling you to go open up this whole life insurance policy, to borrow money tax-free, and then go buy 10 pieces of property. All they're doing is being over-leveraged, trying to get rich quick. And they're gonna fall flat on their face, or worst case, buy the guy's course for $3,000, and then be broke after that.

• 4:49Lewis Howes?

  What is the...

• 4:52Lewis Howes?

  If someone says, "I have an amazing financial opportunity in front of me where I could double my money in the next six to 12 months. It's this revolutionary new thing, it's decentralized, it's this unbelievable opportunity, you gotta get it now before everyone else." What do you say to someone that's like, "I think I can double my money in the next six to 12 months"?

• 5:11George Kamel?

  Oh, man. Well, number one, I go, "Why? What's behind that"? Because usually, it's one of three things. It's fear, it's greed, or it's pride. And I call those the Three Stooges of wealth building. In my book, Breaking Free from Broke, because at the root of it, I was looking back at all the Ramsey Show calls we've taken where someone fell flat on their face trying to build wealth faster than they should have. And there's nothing wrong with making a lot of money, there's nothing wrong with doing it in a shorter amount of time. But I love this biblical proverb, Proverbs 13:11 says, "Wealth gained hastily will dwindle, but whoever gathers little by little will increase it." And so that's tortoise and the hare. And so the faster you're trying to chase something, the higher the chance you won't get there.

• 5:55George Kamel?

  So that's the scary part when someone goes, "Well, I'm gonna double my money in six to 12 months." Who told you that? Uh, it's a guy, an acquaintance, or a guy I met at a party, whatever it is, they're full of it. If it sounds too good to be true, it is. I mean, there's no guarantees in this life. Anyone telling you anything is guaranteed to double your money, you're about to get hosed on this deal. And so the more boring it is, the more excited I get about the opportunity, quote-unquote. Because I'll tell you, Lewis, the only time I hear the word "opportunity" on the Ramsey Show is when someone is trying to justify a terrible decision.

• 6:27Lewis Howes?

  Really?

• 6:27George Kamel?

  But they've convinced themselves, "I have an opportunity to buy the house from my dad even though I'm broke and don't have the money." It's always an opportunity.

• 6:37Lewis Howes?

  An opportunity to lose your money.

• 6:38George Kamel?

  Yeah, but that's our human psychology, that's how we can justify it. If it's, "Well, it's an opportunity. I'll never get this again." And there's, there's always going to be another opportunity around the corner that is, it's getting ready to make you broke.

• 6:50Lewis Howes?

  And there might be one or two people here and there out of a million that like actually do this. Like, okay, I got that opportunity and it worked and they somehow made it happen. And that's the scary thing. You'll hear stories of people saying, oh, I put my money in here and we flipped this house and doubled it within six months and there's no problems. But for every one of those, there's a million of other people that lost their money on that same type of deal.

• 7:13George Kamel?

  Yeah.

• 7:13Lewis Howes?

  Right? It's like, it's so rare. And to think that you're going to be the one.

• 7:18George Kamel?

  That's pride.

• 7:18Lewis Howes?

  I guess you could go for it and know that you might lose it all.

• 7:22George Kamel?

  Yeah.

• 7:23Lewis Howes?

  I've done that.

• 7:23George Kamel?

  Well, the people who always share that one win, you go click through their profile, they've got a course to sell you. So of course they have to keep up this facade that they'll show you the way to do it.

• 7:33Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 7:33George Kamel?

  When really they either are lying or they got lucky or they're making their money from their course, not from their brilliant financial strategy.

• 7:39Lewis Howes?

  Right, right.

• 7:40George Kamel?

  So I always, I'm, I love to be skeptical and cynical when it comes to opportunities and get rich quick.

• 7:46Lewis Howes?

  What is the net worth someone should have at 30, 40 and 50 in your mind?

• 7:53George Kamel?

  Oh.

• 7:54Lewis Howes?

  For them to feel like they're on the right track for financial freedom. And what does it mean if someone's behind those benchmarks at 30, 40 and 50?

• 8:04George Kamel?

  I love this question because there is no magic answer. And if I told you, you gotta have a million by 30, well, I'm just the next shyster, you know, making you feel hopeless. And so at Ramsey, we are a, a transformation company that we're hope dealers in a sense because it doesn't matter what's happening at 30, it, it matters on where you're going, what your current life is. And do you have control of the money you have coming in? Cause I'm not worried about the person who's 30, I'm worried about the person who's 65 and never learned this stuff. Cause you can make up a lot of ground from 30 to 60. Now, if you wanted me to give you a baseline, because I've done a lot of these videos on my YouTube channel saying, hey, here's the average net worth, here's the, the Camel Financial Scoring System of what would be an A+.

• 8:48Lewis Howes?

  Yeah, what is that?

• 8:49George Kamel?

  And so to me, that is you are debt free, you have money in the bank and you're investing for the future.

• 8:54Lewis Howes?

  Debt free minus your mortgage?

• 8:56George Kamel?

  Your home, yeah. So now the mortgage, once you have that paid off, and this is what happened to me. The home equity from my paid off house plus our investment accounts was equal to over a million dollars. So that's a million dollar net worth. Now it's not-

• 9:09Lewis Howes?

  At thirty?

• 9:10George Kamel?

  Yes. It's not liquid, though. People go, "Well, you can't count the house." It's an asset. I don't know what to tell you. Accounting term says net worth is assets minus liabilities. What you own minus what you owe. Now, liquid millionaire would be you have a million dollars you could hit cash out and take that money. So by thirty, I think a good goal, if you can do this, is if you can be a homeowner building equity and be debt free with money in the bank, you're crushing it. Whether you have a $200,000 net worth or a million dollar net worth.

• 9:40Lewis Howes?

  Any money in the bank, five grand, 10 grand, doesn't matter.

• 9:43George Kamel?

  If you have three to six months of expenses and you have a home that is a reasonable portion of your take home pay, like 25% or less, you are ahead of 99.9% of America.

• 9:53Lewis Howes?

  At thirty?

• 9:54George Kamel?

  At thirty.

• 9:54Lewis Howes?

  Not saying you have your home paid off, but if you have one, yeah, yeah.

• 9:58George Kamel?

  Yeah. And we found the average millionaire in our millionaire study, over 10,000 were studied. The average age when someone hit millionaire status was 49 years old. So people who go, "George, it's too late for me, man. I'm 35 and I thought I was gonna have a million dollars by now." Well, the average actual millionaire who's done it doesn't get there till 49, so give yourself some grace.

• 10:17Lewis Howes?

  And that's with just total net worth millionaire, right? That's not cash millionaire.

• 10:20George Kamel?

  Exactly. So my, I would say a good goal, if you want to set one, is to have a million dollar net worth by 50. And that might mean by 40, you're at half a million.

• 10:30Lewis Howes?

  Right, right.

• 10:30George Kamel?

  By 30, you're at a quarter of a million.

• 10:33Lewis Howes?

  And also, is this with dual income or is this with as an individual?

• 10:39George Kamel?

  It depends. We see different numbers for household income versus individual income. You know, household income is about 80 grand, average American salary is about 67 grand. And people always ask, "Well, how does that work with net worth?" And I go, "Well, my wife and I, we are one entity. There is no her money and our money. And you know, I hope we never get divorced. I hope, you know, we're married until death do us part." But the truth is, we have a similar lifestyle. It's not like your expenses double just because you got married. You know what I mean? It doesn't work like that. And so as far as net worth goes, Her name's on the deed of the house, my name's on the deed of the house. Our names are on the cars and everything we own is ours. And so, sure, would it be nice if she had, you know, we had $2 million net worth and now we're,

• 11:25George Kamel?

  if you even split it, you'd still both be millionaires. Sure, that's a great goal, but as far as accounting goes, on paper, you guys are net worth millionaires, whether it's single or dual.

• 11:34Lewis Howes?

  Do you think it's easier to build wealth if you have a married couple who are fully committed to a vision of the, following the, you know, the baby steps that you guys have, being debt-free, being in alignment on values around money,

• 11:52Lewis Howes?

  versus an individual trying to do that?

• 11:55George Kamel?

  Oh, yeah. I mean, it's a wealth multiplier to get married. There's a financial aspect to it. Even with a, a single income, like let's say a spouse stays at home and the other one works. There is still a wealth multiplier there because when you're not just focused on yourself, when you're single, you're just naturally selfish. All right, it's not a bad thing, but you only have to worry about you. You don't have to worry about the kids and, and the wife. And when you get married, and especially when you have kids, which we're in this season right now, it shifts your focus entirely from, I'm, I'm just trying to get by for me and live my life versus I'm trying to provide. I'm trying to project for the future, make sure my kids are good, that I'm leaving an inheritance to my children's children, as a proverb says, 13, proverb 1322,

• 12:39George Kamel?

  "A good man leaves an inheritance to his children's children." So now we're talking about generational wealth and that causes you to make deeper sacrifices. You're willing to forego things that you might have enjoyed in your youth. The golf membership may turn into the college fund. And that's, I think, a wonderful thing. That's maturity and growth and I, I hope you can afford both. You know, that's, it's a good goal to like, yes, enjoy your life now. But the truth is, if you aren't on the same page, so single people have, here's their life hack, nobody's stopping them. Nobody's dragging them down because when you're married and you're not on the same page, it's nearly impossible to build wealth. We get that call on the Ramsey show a whole lot. How do I get my spouse on board? They want to go into crippling debt. I'm trying to get out.

• 13:23George Kamel?

  Well, now you've got this tug of war.

• 13:25Lewis Howes?

  What happens to most marriages when one person is financially, let's say, responsible and the other person is trying to spend, spend, spend and not try to savor or invest at all? What usually happens in that marriage or relationship?

• 13:38George Kamel?

  Well, you, you create a chasm and that chasm gets deeper and deeper until at some point you guys are, are roommates. Yes, you're doing life together, but you're basically Venmo-ing each other for bills and you have to untether at some point because otherwise they're going to drag you into the water and you're going to drown. And so what happens a lot of the times, the couple separates their finances. They basically separate their life. They happen to live together. Maybe they're basically co-parenting, but it's a really sad marriage. And the truth is the spouse who's trying to better their financial future is resentful. And the spouse who's not is probably guilty and they have some shame.

• 14:13Lewis Howes?

  They might be resentful too, saying, let's live our lives and let's buy this and let's spend money.

• 14:17George Kamel?

  Dave Ramsey ruined our life. This, I can't, they, they drank the Kool-Aid and now they want to become debt free. We used to have a fun life. What's wrong with a car payment? And so I've never seen it work out where they call in and go, you know, you have the couples who say, we've had separate bank accounts for 35 years and we have a great marriage. Sure, that's one issue and I still think you would have done better had you combined your life entirely.

• 14:38Lewis Howes?

  Interesting.

• 14:39George Kamel?

  It's crazy. We're willing to combine a bed, our DNA, make children together. And yet we're like, whoa, whoa, whoa, don't, you're not going to look at my bank account. You've seen me naked, but please do not look at my bank account. That's just wild behavior.

• 14:52Lewis Howes?

  What is that wound coming from when two intimate people who can have sex in the same day of meeting each other and their first month of meeting each other, but won't talk about money and eventually after years won't?

• 15:07Lewis Howes?

  Align their money together. What is that saying about the wound or the psychological challenge that that individual might be going through?

• 15:15George Kamel?

  Yeah, I found there's a couple of buckets as to why someone is very hesitant to combine finances. Number one is past hurt, trauma baggage. So there was a previous marriage.

• 15:25Lewis Howes?

  Around money?

• 15:26George Kamel?

  Around money specifically. So there was a previous marriage, that spouse was out of control, and now they're so fearful that they need to protect what's theirs. So there's a fear element to it. There's a shame element to it, is if they knew how I spent my money, they would not approve. There's a control element to it. You know, you see this a lot with narcissists. They're not gonna have any purview into how I spend my money. They're not gonna tell me. So there's all this fear, shame, control. These are not good emotions to be like filtering for your lens of how you're gonna handle money. And what I found is that at some point, there's some, what I call financial infidelity. And it's not always super malicious, but you find out one spouse has been saving up, they got 20

• 16:09George Kamel?

  grand over here. Meanwhile, you're trying to pay off your debt and you're struggling.

• 16:13Lewis Howes?

  What is financial infidelity and why is it so harmful to a relationship?

• 16:17George Kamel?

  Financial infidelity is where there is not full transparency and accountability in a relationship when it comes to money, and that causes one spouse to do something behind the other's back. Sometimes maliciously, sometimes it's addiction. That's another huge reason why couples are not willing to combine bank accounts. There's an addiction there, and once there's combined bank accounts, there's accountability. And they don't want that. They want to keep their vice. And so that's a huge thing we see on the show. Now sometimes it's the most nefarious thing you can think of, right? They're cheating. I had, we had a call, this was so crazy. This is one of the most craziest calls we've taken. Rachel Cruz and I took this call. This woman said, me and my husband, our finances are

• 16:58George Kamel?

  out of control. Great, normal call so far. He shows up to the apartment complex with a new car, never told me. It's got a car payment on it, took out a big loan, never, never even discussed it with me. And she goes, and I'm no better. I've got my own financial problems. And he goes on all these vacations, doesn't tell me. And she goes, in fact, he's on one right now. And I went, I'm sorry, what? She goes, yeah. We said, where? Like, without you? I said, that's not a thing.

• 17:25Lewis Howes?

  Weird.

• 17:25George Kamel?

  And she said, yeah, he's on a cruise. And Rachel said, does he do these a lot? She's like, he got a few more planned this year. So now our ears are perked up. And I go, Amy.

• 17:36Lewis Howes?

  And they're married.

• 17:37George Kamel?

  I think he's cheating on you. Like, I didn't want to just tell her, but I had to imply. And again, I don't know the full story, but you gotta go, that's weird. Here's the craziest part. I said, do you ever go with him? She said, well, I wanted to go on this one. I told him I was gonna book a ticket, kind of jokingly. Next day, he says, did you book it? And she said, no, I didn't book it. And he said, good, I don't want you to go.

• 18:00George Kamel?

  This is.

• 18:00Lewis Howes?

  They're married.

• 18:01George Kamel?

  This is a cra- and they've got kids.

• 18:03Lewis Howes?

  Wow.

• 18:04George Kamel?

  And so this, these kind of calls break my heart. And it starts with, they didn't never got aligned when it comes to money. They were never on the same page. And suddenly, things are bad. And that is the number one thing you've got to do before you ever put a ring on it.

• 18:17Lewis Howes?

  Yes.

• 18:17George Kamel?

  You've got to make sure that your money values are aligned, more than anything else. You can disagree on politics and still have a great life, even religion. You could get by if one of you is Catholic and the other one, but money, that will destroy you.

• 18:31Lewis Howes?

  Isn't that interesting? I've seen couples who are like, one's Christian, one's Jewish, and they work, they somehow work out.

• 18:37George Kamel?

  Yeah.

• 18:38Lewis Howes?

  I have seen people who like, okay, we have different sexual tendencies or whatever. Like, we like, one person likes to have more sex than the other, and they still work it out. But when money is not aligned, for whatever reason, there is so much friction that maybe they can stay together for a long time, but just suffer, and eventually, it falls apart. Why is money such a big indicator of the potential success of a relationship? Or the potential downfall of one?

• 19:07George Kamel?

  Well, money, number one is, you know, it's, people like to quote the verse and saying, well, money's evil. No, no, no. The love of money is the root of all evil. So it's this love, this greed, this like, I can't be satiated. The discontentment is really at the root of that. But money is so emotional. It touches everything. I mean, any goal you have, money is usually a part of that goal. Even something like starting a family, having kids, that's gonna cost some money to raise a kid, send him to college, maybe you want to cover the wedding, all of these things affect your finances. Where you live, the kind of car you drive, everything that is visual in this world that you experience, money is tied to it. And then the other thing is, we all have a way we grew up with money. Some of it was scarcity.

• 19:50George Kamel?

  So when you get some money, you're like, oh, my gosh, this is crazy. I'm so rich, I want to spend, spend, spend because. Or you go, I'm so tight because money was, even if you have $5 million, we get these calls and they go, well, I grew up poor. And now I'm scared to spend a dime because what if I go back to that?

• 20:06Lewis Howes?

  Right.

• 20:09Lewis Howes?

  I had that fear.

• 20:10George Kamel?

  Yeah, it's a real fear.

• 20:12Lewis Howes?

  I was like, as I started to earn money, I just was driven to earn more. It was like, when am I going to feel safe? Like, when's the bank account going to be big enough where I feel like I'm not going to go broke? It took a while for me to like, breathe and not just sleep on a couch. When I could afford to like, get a hotel room, I was like, holding on to it for years.

• 20:34George Kamel?

  Yeah, I just saw a great, Morgan Housel, who's a great author and in the personal finance space. He said.

• 20:39Lewis Howes?

  Psychology of Money?

• 20:40George Kamel?

  Yes, Psychology of Money, great book. And he said, whatever the amount of money you, you have, you think you need double. So if you think you need $100,000 or you have $100,000, you want $200,000. If you have a million, you want 2 million. And he said, the goalpost is always moving, which is so true. And I found this in the personal finance space. There's some people doing really well.

• 20:59Lewis Howes?

  They want more.

• 21:00George Kamel?

  But there's, and so I go, what is at the root of that? There's no actual values, there's no actual goals, other than I like to make money.

• 21:08Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 21:08George Kamel?

  That's a, that's a scary premise for your wealth building.

• 21:12Lewis Howes?

  Well, here's the thing, though, you're making money. You, do you have a goal for how much money you want to make? Or have invested for a future retirement?

• 21:20George Kamel?

  Oh, yeah.

• 21:21Lewis Howes?

  Do you have that, what's your number?

• 21:23George Kamel?

  You know, as I've looked at it, there is the, there's the bare bones, like you, I could lower my lifestyle. And this is what I love. The more flexibility you have with this, the bigger the range. And you go, well, I could make this work on a million. And if I had 10 million, I'd figure out a way to spend it. But the truth is, you know, there's always something fun and new to buy. You know, a property, a vacation home, more generosity. And so I, I do find that when I was in my twenties, a million dollars was like. I made it. I could retire. And this has nothing to do with inflation. This is just like your prefrontal cortex. That's the number. Yeah, yeah. And the truth is, a lot of people have a million dollars saving in retirement, or less. And they have very wonderful lives.

• 22:04George Kamel?

  You know, they're not doing anything lavish, but they could survive off of that for the rest of their life. And be okay. That's a real scenario. And so for me, I found like the the 2 million mark for a millennial, knowing that, you know, 20, 30 years from now, I want to be work optional. 2 million dollars is like, that's a good baseline, I found. 2 million at 65, or? In your 50s even. 50s, yeah. Yeah. Because you don't, you know, I'm assuming I'm gonna live a long full life. God willing, you know, the creek don't rise, that I'll live in my 90s. Because when you look at the actual mortality rates, and you look at the, how long people are actually living in America today,

• 22:44George Kamel?

  the average age is like 78, but that's factoring in infant mortality and, you know, cancer. But if you make it to your 60s and you're in good health, there's a great chance you're gonna go into your 90s. Barring anything crazy happening. Yeah. And so too many people aren't planning for that 30, 40 year retirement. Because they're going, well, if I die at 78, I retire at 65, I need a decade. I'll be good. Or even scarier, my kids will take care of me. And now we see the sandwich generation. And Gen X is experiencing this. What's the sandwich generation? Well, they're trying to raise their kids and save for college and cover their own financial world, while taking care of mom and dad. And so they are stuck in the middle of this sandwich.

• 23:26George Kamel?

  And mom and dad, I mean, we get this call a lot. They got nothing. There's no, maybe a tiny pension, maybe some social security. Average social security payment is now $2,000. It was only meant to replace 40% of income. And too many people went, well, the government will take care of me in my old age. And that's those are the most heartbreaking calls because unless you can continue working, there's not a lot you can do when you're in your 60s and 70s to recoup from not saving for retirement. Like we talked about earlier with that chart. You know, at 60, you might turn that dollar into a dollar 60 from 60 to 65. You're not even going to double your money.

• 24:04Lewis Howes?

  Not much.

• 24:05George Kamel?

  And so you really need to get started early. And back to the original point, money is so emotional. And when you don't have it, it is like oxygen. You need it to survive. And then, once you have it, it can become a tool to help you live out your values and goals. But devoid of those values and goals, it is a never ending chase. It is hell.

• 24:26Lewis Howes?

  And I've heard you argue that getting out of debt isn't just a math problem. It's a behavior problem. So what is the identity shift that someone has to make before any budget or plan will actually start to stick for them?

• 24:40George Kamel?

  The mindset shift they need to make is that they are not a financial genius. Too many people go, well, I'm going to try my way. And I go, hey, how about try it the way that millions of people have done first? If that doesn't work, if you hate that, you can try it your way. And the truth is, we don't want to submit ourselves to someone else's plan. And we wanted to feel like it was our idea, that we have control of it. And so when I gave up control to say, maybe I'm not the smartest guy in the room. Maybe I should listen to this guy, Dave Ramsey, who's helped millions of people before me get out of debt. I'll try it. And so that's what I did. I was 40 grand in debt when I started at Ramsey at 23 years old.

• 25:18George Kamel?

  Student, mostly student loans, some credit cards, because I opened them to get my Sky Miles and cash back thinking this is the plan. Build your credit score, go into a little bit of debt, get some miles. American dream, bada bing bada boom, get your degree. Little did I know, I wouldn't be making 40 grand out of college. And so here I am going, how am I going to pay this off? And then I went through Financial Peace University, which is our flagship money course. And I followed the debt snowball method, which says, hey, forget interest rate. We are not trying to be mathematical geniuses here. We're going to focus on the smallest balance first. And that gives you a quick win because you can knock out the thousand dollar balance way faster than the $10,000 balance.

• 25:58George Kamel?

  Regardless of interest rate. And so that gives you an actual psychological win that causes momentum. That's the behavior shift that needs to happen. And if you just want to focus on math, you're going to have a real hard time getting out of debt because it's really not about math. And we see this on the debt free stage. People lose 100 pounds on their debt free journey. And the reason is it's a transformation game.

• 26:20Lewis Howes?

  Yes.

• 26:21George Kamel?

  When you make a sacrifice and you see a result, you then go, where else could I implement this?

• 26:27Lewis Howes?

  Yeah, in every area of life. And I feel like, for whatever reason, you might have a stat on this, but in the last five years, I'm assuming debt has just increased so much by individuals. First with COVID and kind of the free money that people got and just spending online all day and whatever, they probably just stayed in that process.

• 26:46George Kamel?

  Yeah, we are over 18 trillion dollars in just consumer debt.

• 26:49Lewis Howes?

  Really?

• 26:51George Kamel?

  It's pretty wild.

• 26:52Lewis Howes?

  What is the average debt of an American today? Do we know?

• 26:54George Kamel?

  Yeah, if you have debt, the average is about 40,000 in the consumer debt and then about 100,000, once you factor in

• 27:02Lewis Howes?

  Student loans.

• 27:02George Kamel?

  mortgages and all kind of all kinds of debt.

• 27:05Lewis Howes?

  40,000 like credit card debt?

• 27:07George Kamel?

  That's all kinds of debts combined. So that's your, you know, the average, if you added up their cars or credit cards and took the average of that. But I mean, we're seeing the numbers continually go up. We're at 1.67 trillion in auto loans. That's a record. 1.66 in student loans.

• 27:22Lewis Howes?

  Oh my gosh.

• 27:22George Kamel?

  Another record, 1.3 trillion in credit card debt as a nation. That's a record.

• 27:28Lewis Howes?

  What happens to a nation when 1.6 trillion in credit card debt turns into 10 trillion in credit card debt? What happens to individuals and a nation?

• 27:40George Kamel?

  We point fingers at the president and say, someone needs to do something about this. Inflation's out of control.

• 27:45Lewis Howes?

  Wipe us clean of our debt, right?

• 27:46George Kamel?

  Yeah, because as prices go up, the problem with debt is it makes it more palatable to, you know, take in that amount. So new cars now are almost 50 grand. Average new car payment is $750.

• 27:59Lewis Howes?

  Holy moly.

• 28:00George Kamel?

  Now, if we said, hey, you can't use debt to buy cars, what would happen to car prices? They'd go down because nobody's willing to spend $50,000 on a car.

• 28:09Lewis Howes?

  Or you just buy used cars.

• 28:10George Kamel?

  Exactly. Same thing happened with college tuition. Why did it skyrocket faster than almost anything else? Because colleges realized, all these loans are backed by the government. Parents and families will continue to just take these out like Monopoly money. We can raise prices and no one's gonna care. That's the scariest part about debt is it's sort of, it's like, you know, you're boiling the crab here. And you don't realize it's too late until it's over and you're already in crippling debt. And so that's the biggest mindset shift you can make is to just take debt off the table. And say, I'm only gonna buy things I can afford. The exclusion being your mortgage. Obviously, you know, a $300, $400,000 house. Very few people are gonna have the foresight to go save cash for that. It happens, but it's few or far between.

• 28:55George Kamel?

  So mortgage is the only one we won't yell at you at. But every other type of debt is avoidable if you're willing to have that delayed gratification. And I know you drove a $4,000 car.

• 29:05Lewis Howes?

  I drove a car for five years.

• 29:06George Kamel?

  Back in the day. Now, you could've went out and got a $20,000 car with a payment.

• 29:10Lewis Howes?

  This gets me from A to B. Why do I need to spend all this money when I had a 1997 Cadillac Eldorado Berets?

• 29:18George Kamel?

  It's a pretty sweet car.

• 29:19Lewis Howes?

  It was nice, but it had no radio. It had no AC. It had no Bluetooth. So it didn't have the conveniences of, you know, I had to entertain myself.

• 29:27George Kamel?

  No CarPlay?

• 29:28Lewis Howes?

  No CarPlay.

• 29:29George Kamel?

  Oh my goodness.

• 29:30Lewis Howes?

  No flat screen TV in the front there, but it got me wherever I needed to go.

• 29:34George Kamel?

  Yeah. Well, that's good. You were secure and you knew. You're not trying to impress everyone else.

• 29:39Lewis Howes?

  I wasn't trying to. And I was like, I'm using this whatever 500 or 800 dollar car payment a month that I would be putting into a car payment, plus insurance, plus whatever else, into my investments every month. That was going automatically into my investment account.

• 29:56Lewis Howes?

  And it was building for my future self to say, thank you. And I wanna be, I wanna look in the mirror at 50 and 60 and be like, look back at my younger self and say, thank you for not spending all that money on that stupid thing that you wouldn't want a couple of years later anyways.

• 30:11George Kamel?

  Yeah.

• 30:11Lewis Howes?

  You know, like, thank you for setting us up for success. Now, look at this rich family life we have. You know, not just financially, but a rich life where we get to take adventures and create memories from experiences and trips and travel the world or whatever we wanna do because of you at 25 and 30. Thank you. I wanna look back and say thank you to my younger self.

• 30:37George Kamel?

  Yeah, and that's some vision casting. You gotta think about what the 10-year-out version of you is gonna be proud of versus regret. And so it's a pretty good filter to go, you know, if I can just avoid financial regrets at 25, I'm gonna be okay when it comes to building life.

• 30:52Lewis Howes?

  I've still made some regrets, you know.

• 30:54George Kamel?

  Oh, sure.

• 30:54Lewis Howes?

  I'm still a risky guy, you know, it's like, ah, let me try this. Let me roll the dice on this project and see if it works.

• 31:00George Kamel?

  Yeah, but you can take more meaningful, calculated risks because you've set yourself up.

• 31:06Lewis Howes?

  I have a goal for how much automatically is going away every month for a future goal.

• 31:11George Kamel?

  Yes.

• 31:12Lewis Howes?

  So it's like, alright, if I'm gonna buy some expensive lattes every day because I've automatically saved and invested the amount that I want to, that's on me. I'm gonna live my life how I want and how I choose, right? You know, I'm not gonna be like Grand Stefan. I'm gonna have sushi. I'm gonna enjoy the sushi and not save until I'm 60 and eat sushi.

• 31:31George Kamel?

  He'll get it paid for. He'll do like a sponsored post and get the meal covered. But that's true, you know, when it comes to that, the budget is what freed me on that. Like, everyone thinks the budget is some, you know, straitjacket mechanism for people who wanna be tightwads. The budget allowed me to go, no, I budgeted for the frivolous coffee purchase.

• 31:49Lewis Howes?

  Yes.

• 31:49George Kamel?

  Every couple of days.

• 31:50Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 31:51George Kamel?

  And I budgeted to invest 500 bucks into my kid's college fund. And so, once you actually create the budget, it frees you. It's permission to spend. Then there's no guilt or shame, cuz you planned for it.

• 32:00Lewis Howes?

  Zero. And you're like, Man, I'm automatically saving and investing every month. I can do whatever I want with this money.

• 32:05George Kamel?

  Exactly.

• 32:06Lewis Howes?

  This is my money to do anything.

• 32:08George Kamel?

  Being intentional allows you to be more impulsive.

• 32:10Lewis Howes?

  Hundred percent.

• 32:11George Kamel?

  When it's in the budget. You kind of sort of have your impulsive line item.

• 32:13Lewis Howes?

  I like that. But the financial system right now, I feel like is designed to keep people in debt between credit cards, loans, and the buy now, pay later offers. What would you say then is the biggest debt trap that people are falling into right now?

• 32:28George Kamel?

  Buy now, pay later has skyrocketed and it's scary how many people are using it. It's over one in four Americans use buy now, pay later. One in five are using it to cover groceries.

• 32:39Lewis Howes?

  Oh, no.

• 32:40George Kamel?

  It used to be the frivolous entertainment. I can't afford the laptop.

• 32:43Lewis Howes?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 32:44George Kamel?

  Yeah, the furniture, the appliance that, you know, that's the old school. And now people are just using it to live and just adding it to the tab. And what's really scary is that 40% have been late on their buy now, pay later payment, which then triggers the fees, the interest. And the craziest part to me is not even the interest and fees. It's how much more it causes you to spend. And there's data on this.

• 33:06Lewis Howes?

  Why?

• 33:06George Kamel?

  Klarna will brag to retailers saying, hey, put Klarna under your cart and it will add up to 40% for your order size.

• 33:14Lewis Howes?

  Come on.

• 33:15George Kamel?

  On average, 40% more. Because think about it, Lewis is buying a hundred dollar pair of jeans. Well, I see this buy now, pay later. Now it's just $25 today. And I can do the other $25 two weeks from now, another four weeks from now. So what happens? And well, now your cart went down to 25. We can add some more stuff to the cart.

• 33:34George Kamel?

  And so you don't feel it. Again, to my original point, it's become so frictionless to spend money and it's exactly how companies like it. And so you have to add friction back into your life by saying, I'm not even gonna have my debit card info tied to that account, let alone my credit card info. I'm gonna not have any of these buy now, pay later apps on my phone that are gonna tempt me to go spend more. And you have the value. Your identity is I'm a guy who doesn't borrow money. I'm a guy who pays for things in full, who saves up over time, and I'm really intentional. And once you do that, it's become real easy for me to not go into debt.

• 34:08Lewis Howes?

  For someone who has been in credit card debt, student loan debt, deferred their debts for later dates for a long time. And that has been their identity based on their behaviors. How do they shift their identity overnight or over time to be a completely different identity? And not be a person who goes into debt? Because it's a behavior. It's a mindset that they've had that they've embodied. Maybe it wasn't by choice originally. Maybe they made a poor decision financially and it just snowballed the wrong way. But because of that action or that circumstance, it has become their identity. How do they shift the internal identity first? So that they stop making those choices externally?

• 34:51George Kamel?

  There's a humility that comes first of going, hey? Maybe I'm not the smartest guy in the room. Maybe the way I've been doing it, even though it's normal, isn't actually optimal for my financial future. And then the other piece of this is you gotta decide what kind of person you're gonna be. Are you gonna be a person who just always has a payment? Because that's what your parents told you and society told you? Or are you gonna kind of swim upstream? And I just talked to a bunch of college students yesterday, Arizona State University, largest public university. And it was scary to me how many of them had some student loan debt, had some car debt, had some credit card debt. And they were so nonchalant. They were like, well, I'd rather see the money in savings than pay down the debt. Not that exciting to pay down the debt, very exciting to see my savings grow.

• 35:37George Kamel?

  But they're not realizing there's a false sense of security when you're hanging on to debt while having some savings built.

• 35:43Lewis Howes?

  It's not real money.

• 35:44George Kamel?

  Exactly. When you owe a lender $40,000 and you've got $10,000 in the bank, the math says you're broke. And that's the scary part is you have to realize I can do so much better if I invested this car payment instead of gave it to Toyota lending for the rest of my life. So that's the math I do with college students, especially the young people. I pull out my investment calculator. I go to RamseySolutions.com, I plug in the numbers and go, what's your car payment? 500 bucks a month? Great, let's pop that in. If you keep carrying a car payment and just trade in the car, get another car, 500 bucks a month, maybe even more, you are missing out on a million to 2 million plus. That you would have had without even investing, just trading the car payment.

• 36:23Lewis Howes?

  One of our team members here is a, you know, younger team member. He doesn't have a car yet and he lives very close and he walks here and he's like, I'm thinking about getting a car. I go, you know, do what you want, but don't get a car for as long as you can. Because you can walk or take the subway or the bus and just invest that money at 23, 24, 25, like. I get it. You might need a car eventually to be able to get around the town or something, but what would life look like if you didn't have a car for the next few years?

• 36:50George Kamel?

  Yeah, if you could get by without it.

• 36:52Lewis Howes?

  What would life look like? And maybe it's not as convenient. Maybe you've gotta take a couple Ubers here and there, or you gotta take the bus and it takes a little more time, or you take the subway, or you ask a friend for a ride, or you get a bike. I have a friend that doesn't own a car. He has a bike. He goes all around the city. He says it's faster.

• 37:09George Kamel?

  That tracks. In LA, that definitely tracks.

• 37:12Lewis Howes?

  The traffic, he says it's faster. His kids go in the back of his bike. He goes everywhere in a bike in LA.

• 37:18George Kamel?

  I bet he's in great shape, too.

• 37:19Lewis Howes?

  Great shape. He's, he knows all the bike lanes. He's got the app that tells you where to go to save time. And it's like, for 10 years, his name's Michael Schneider, he hasn't had a car in LA. He goes to the airport in his bike and leaves it at the airport.

• 37:34George Kamel?

  Chains it up at the airport.

• 37:35Lewis Howes?

  At the airport, everything. And he goes, it's created freedom in my life. Financial freedom also, but also just, I'm outside. I see nature. I'm choosing to go places intentionally. I get a workout, all these things.

• 37:48George Kamel?

  Like the minimalist. It's kind of that simplicity mindset of just, how can I do more with less?

• 37:52Lewis Howes?

  Yes.

• 37:53George Kamel?

  And even to cars, the car is just the first portion of buying the car. Then you've got gas, maintenance, the insurance. I mean, we get calls on the Ramsey show. They go, well, my car payment's a thousand, but the insurance is $300. Then gas was costing them $1,400 a month.

• 38:08Lewis Howes?

  Oh.

• 38:09George Kamel?

  Cause it's one of these gas guzzlers.

• 38:10Lewis Howes?

  $2,500 a month, right there.

• 38:12George Kamel?

  Exactly.

• 38:13Lewis Howes?

  Imagine putting $2,500 a month into your investment account.

• 38:16George Kamel?

  That's how to shift that. Once you go, you need to get angry. And to your point, you said, what is it gonna cause someone's mindset to shift who is carrying that debt? It's anger and pain. That's gotta be the catalyst. Cause you know this, I wanna be in as good a shape as you. But I'm not at a point in my life where I'm so out of shape that I'm angry enough.

• 38:35Lewis Howes?

  It's not big enough pain.

• 38:36George Kamel?

  Yeah, that's why we're inspired when someone drops 150 pounds. If I dropped 10 pounds, you would barely notice. You know what I mean? And so that's where there needs to be enough pain. And so what I try to do in the Ramsey show and when I'm talking to people is pull the rubber band back to make them feel that pain because we've been desensitized. We're really good at avoiding pain, even when it's there.

• 38:56Lewis Howes?

  Gosh.

• 38:57George Kamel?

  We've got so many vices in our life and distractions and, you know, anti boredom devices. We never have to actually experience our pain. We don't even know the amount of debt we're in. We're not going to look at the credit report or the bank account because that's negative energy. And so when you're actually forced to deal with the reality, that causes some pain. Now we now we can start somewhere.

• 39:16Lewis Howes?

  Yeah. What is the one thing people buy to look rich that actually guarantees they'll stay poor?

• 39:22George Kamel?

  Oof. Man, I mean, the car is the most glaring. The house is the biggest. That's the biggest purchase that people buy as the like, I've made it. And you see this a lot. The scariest part is this happens with high earners. Six figure earners, they have the hardest time downgrading their lifestyle because now you have to live the six figure life. You've got to have a nicer house, got to have a nicer car. And if you live in a crappy neighborhood with a beater car, people go, wow, I thought they were doing well. Apparently not. Or it's again, self imposed where they go, well, I feel like I need to prove to myself that I've made it. So it all goes back to that insecurity. And when you're secure in yourself, you're self aware, you know, who you're, who you are, what your identity is,

• 40:04George Kamel?

  what values you have around money, that to me like that person is going to build wealth, whether they make 50,000 bucks or $500,000. Because otherwise you can make all the money in the world. And if you're insecure with no self awareness, with no real values or goals, just kind of untethered, you're going to go spend it all.

• 40:24Lewis Howes?

  That's so interesting. So if you're emotionally or psychologically insecure, you're going to be financially insecure as well. It sounds like either making either making poor financial decisions to look more successful or more secure. Or just not having the confidence in yourself to go earn money based on your your lack of worth.

• 40:43George Kamel?

  Yeah.

• 40:44Lewis Howes?

  It's funny because I was, I'm not saying I had it all figured out money wise. I definitely had my money challenges. But I was so happy living in a two bedroom apartment until I was forty years old. It might sound weird, but it's like, I didn't need more. I was also never married. So I was like, why buy a house?

• 41:03George Kamel?

  Do you need a five bedroom house right now?

• 41:04Lewis Howes?

  I don't need this. And I was like, I don't want a starter home, like a three bedroom home.

• 41:09George Kamel?

  Just to say you have a home.

• 41:10Lewis Howes?

  Yeah, I didn't need that. I was like, let me just invest. I live fine in a two bedroom apartment. No, I had a nice two bedroom apartment and I's.

• 41:17George Kamel?

  It wasn't a dump.

• 41:18Lewis Howes?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 41:18George Kamel?

  Yeah.

• 41:19Lewis Howes?

  But I didn't need that to flex and I didn't need a nice car to flex. The only reason I bought a new car was for like a tax purpose for the business eventually. Otherwise I had my four thousand dollar car for years. And and then I was like, all right, I think I want like GPS, you know, I want like radio. That was essentially what it was.

• 41:41Lewis Howes?

  But until then, I was happy in a two bedroom apartment, a four thousand dollar car in my late thirties.

• 41:47George Kamel?

  Wow.

• 41:47Lewis Howes?

  And I was fine.

• 41:48George Kamel?

  You know what I found out that this and this is something I'm guilty of. Once you go to a certain level, you can never go back. And the best example I have is Keurig. So I drank Keurig in college, right? I had the Keurig coffee machine. That was my college go to.

• 42:01Lewis Howes?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 42:01George Kamel?

  And then I found out about the Aeropress. Now I'm making espresso, making lattes.

• 42:06Lewis Howes?

  Like, man, I'm like.

• 42:07George Kamel?

  And now I went, wow, I can't drink the Keurig anymore. Now I have a fancy coffee machine. I get single origin beans and I grind them fresh. In my Baratza Encore grind, you know?

• 42:16Lewis Howes?

  Your barista.

• 42:17George Kamel?

  And now I go to a hotel with a Keurig and I go, oh, I can never drink that. And I found out this crazy, this is what I realized. It's an epiphany. Maybe. Maybe someone else has figured this out. The happiest people are the ones who can drink a Keurig happily.

• 42:30Lewis Howes?

  Yes.

• 42:31George Kamel?

  I'm jealous now.

• 42:32Lewis Howes?

  Or even powdered coffee, instant coffee.

• 42:34George Kamel?

  Yes.

• 42:34Lewis Howes?

  Just put it in some water.

• 42:35George Kamel?

  I used to judge them and say, wow, have some class, have some taste. And now I just look at them and go, must be nice.

• 42:41Lewis Howes?

  Must be nice to be free.

• 42:42George Kamel?

  Yes.

• 42:43Lewis Howes?

  Psychologically, you're free from needing it to be a certain way.

• 42:46George Kamel?

  So now translate that to the financial world.

• 42:47Lewis Howes?

  Oh, man.

• 42:48George Kamel?

  Now I'm jealous of the person who has a simple life. The car that gets from A to B. Yeah, it's got a little fender bender here and there. It's not the prettiest. And they are happy as a clam because they're debt free.

• 42:58Lewis Howes?

  Hmm.

• 42:58George Kamel?

  They bought themselves freedom by avoiding the debt. And too many people.

• 43:03Lewis Howes?

  By not paying for anything.

• 43:04George Kamel?

  Exactly.

• 43:05Lewis Howes?

  They bought themselves freedom by not overspending.

• 43:07George Kamel?

  So realize that once you get that nice, brand new car, you're gonna have a real hard time ever buying a used car again.

• 43:13Lewis Howes?

  Hmm.

• 43:13George Kamel?

  It's gonna feel like a real downshift.

• 43:16Lewis Howes?

  No, I can't do it now.

• 43:17George Kamel?

  It's so hard. That's human nature.

• 43:19Lewis Howes?

  You know, maybe I could with a car because I just don't care enough. But I have a Tesla that I really love. I'm just like, just so comfortable in.

• 43:26George Kamel?

  Yeah.

• 43:26Lewis Howes?

  But I'm like, okay.

• 43:27George Kamel?

  That's right. I can't go, I'll never not be able to have a Tesla anymore.

• 43:31Lewis Howes?

  Electric, man.

• 43:31George Kamel?

  It changed my life. Well, the self-driving changed my life.

• 43:33Lewis Howes?

  It's.

• 43:34George Kamel?

  I realized how little I enjoy driving once it did it for me.

• 43:37Lewis Howes?

  And it's just better than you.

• 43:39George Kamel?

  Yes.

• 43:39Lewis Howes?

  It's.

• 43:40George Kamel?

  Six cameras.

• 43:41Lewis Howes?

  It's better than you.

• 43:42George Kamel?

  100% of the time watching versus my human brain.

• 43:44Lewis Howes?

  It's a superior machine.

• 43:48George Kamel?

  It is.

• 43:48Lewis Howes?

  It's unbelievable. It's hard to go back to like the Stone Ages.

• 43:53George Kamel?

  When I drive my wife's car now, I'm angry. I'm like, oh, gosh, you have to hit the pedal on my own? I have to hit the brake? This is insane. And so that's a great analogy for just human evolution.

• 44:03Lewis Howes?

  Oh, yeah, man.

• 44:04George Kamel?

  And our standards. And so that's why it breaks my heart when people live beyond their means.

• 44:08Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 44:09George Kamel?

  They have the hardest time ratcheting down.

• 44:11Lewis Howes?

  If you're going in debt to go beyond your means, it's gonna be really hard to go back to a level you're not comfortable with.

• 44:15George Kamel?

  Yeah. Versus someone who's like making 45 grand, who's not living above their means, but they're just having a hard time getting by. I could help that person all day long.

• 44:23Lewis Howes?

  Ah, gosh, you know what? When I was in high school, my, my mom bought me a thousand dollar car. It was like, what was it like? It was a Honda Prelude and it was probably 1993 or something like that. It was a stick shift. It was a two-door. It was so. Beaten down, but it was like the coolest thing for me to just be like, I'm driving my stick shift. A little two door car. I was happy in that car, thousand dollar car and only lasted for like a year and a half. But I was like, this gets me to school back. I can go like see my friends. It was the coolest thing.

• 44:54George Kamel?

  Isn't it funny how you look back at that nostalgia with like joy? You're like, that was when I may have been my happiest and because you were living the simplest.

• 45:01Lewis Howes?

  I mean, now I was struggling and psychologically and relationships and all these other areas in my life, but

• 45:07George Kamel?

  Sure, you didn't have the maturity.

• 45:08Lewis Howes?

  Exactly.

• 45:08George Kamel?

  Yeah.

• 45:08Lewis Howes?

  But from that thousand dollar car, I was like, this is the coolest thing ever. So maybe I could go back and have like, uh, I mean, listen, I could do anything if I had to, but you know, if I was gonna buy a used car that was like maybe a stick shift, like truck or something, just to have something to get me around. Maybe it's like, all right, cool. I can enjoy this.

• 45:25George Kamel?

  That's the new thing now was we want to go back to the old school analog, like add friction back in. I want it to be difficult to drive the car.

• 45:31Lewis Howes?

  You think people really want that? I'm seeing, I'm getting all this

• 45:36Lewis Howes?

  content fed to me of homesteading. My wife really wants to have like land. You're like, live in Tennessee. You're probably essentially homesteading yourself, you know? It's like you guys live in Tennessee. You're got like the

• 45:46George Kamel?

  My friend, Dr. John Deloney, that's like his thing.

• 45:48Lewis Howes?

  His body.

• 45:48George Kamel?

  He wants to just have a ton of land, be able to live off the fat of the land, have the garden.

• 45:54Lewis Howes?

  And it's this idea of having, you know, a little piece of land, a few acres, having your own animals, chickens, growing your own food and living off grid where you don't need to spend money on a car, on rent, on electricity, on utilities.

• 46:09George Kamel?

  The chaos of society.

• 46:11Lewis Howes?

  Exactly. You don't have to be bought into the machine, right? You can just save your money, invest it so you can buy your piece of land and live off grid. What do you think of that lifestyle? I feel like it's coming back or I'm just being fed this content that more people are doing it because they don't want to be spending so much of their time making money to pay bills.

• 46:29George Kamel?

  Yeah.

• 46:29Lewis Howes?

  They want to be spending their time with their kids, teaching their kids, tending to their animals and their land, having quality time, making bonfires, playing board games and living that dream. What do you think about that life or people wanting to go back to that way of living versus the conveniences of life?

• 46:52George Kamel?

  I think most people love the idea of it. I think they would hate the reality of it.

• 46:56Lewis Howes?

  How hard it actually is.

• 46:57George Kamel?

  They can get old real quick and how much sacrifice it actually takes. I mean, go ask a farmer. You're like, oh, what's love on a farm? And do you know what time they're up?

• 47:04Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 47:05George Kamel?

  Do you know how much they're working during that day just to like get by and survive and tend to the fields and the crops and the animals and the cattle? It's an insane amount of work. So the homesteading became popular on Instagram. And so then you find out, well, it's kind of a farce because they had all this family money and they kind of started the trend and you're like, okay, so you need $5 million to own all this land, build something beautiful on it and then maintain it with help and, you know, labor because you're not going to do it all yourself. So it's a little bit of a fantasy, but the idea behind it is I want to get out of the noise. I want to get out of the chaos, the consumerist culture, the grind, the treadmill. That part I relate to. I think we're just jumping to the most extreme thing.

• 47:47George Kamel?

  The pendulum swinging so hard because we're so exhausted by this life we've created for ourselves.

• 47:54Lewis Howes?

  Where do you feel like it's going to be by 2030? You know, I keep hearing about this 2030 agenda. You know, no one's going to own anything and be happy.

• 48:01George Kamel?

  A great reset.

• 48:02Lewis Howes?

  The reset. They've been saying this since 2020, right?

• 48:05George Kamel?

  It's like the people guessing the like the last day of the earth, like the apocalypse. And like, oh, we, we miscalculated. It'll be three years from now. So nobody knows, you know, only the Lord knows when it's all coming down. I live my life.

• 48:18Lewis Howes?

  In terms of the financial situation, yeah, not like the world.

• 48:21George Kamel?

  They're saying there's going to be a crash and it's too good to be true. There's a bubble with AI. And, you know, there's all kinds of financial institutions going, hey, the market's not going to be good the next decade. It's going to be a real rough and tumble.

• 48:33Lewis Howes?

  But then it always comes back.

• 48:35George Kamel?

  Well, you look back, what were they saying a decade ago? Same thing. No one predicted where we'd be today. And so I think there's a lot of pessimism and that's what gets clicks. If you went, hey, the market's going to continue to do great. Keep on keeping on. Now I'm tuned out now. There's not much you can say there. But you can dig all day long into how terrible things are going to be. So I'm a glass half full kind of guy when it comes to. The future, the economy, everyone thinks, you know, everything's inflated in the stock market right now because of AI and technology. And I'm like, what if you're wrong and AI actually bolsters the stock market for the next decade? And we'd see, you know, we saw returns like 25% up, 23% up, 17% up in the last three years.

• 49:16Lewis Howes?

  Wow.

• 49:17George Kamel?

  And then people go, George, you always say 10% returns. Nobody's getting that. I'm like, you're right. If you've been actually investing, you'd notice it's been more like 17, 20, 23, 25% the last couple of years.

• 49:28Lewis Howes?

  Yeah, but if you average it over the next 40 years, if you get 10%, that's amazing.

• 49:32George Kamel?

  Exactly. And that's what we've seen. I mean, there's more up years than down years in the stock market. If you go look at the charts, and there's not a whole lot of years where there's a crash like 2008, and there's a whole lot of years where it's up 10, 12, even 20%. And so I'm not like a, you know, pie in the sky guy. I like to look at the data to inform what could happen in the future.

• 49:53Lewis Howes?

  What does true financial freedom look like to you?

• 49:56George Kamel?

  Hmm. I think it comes down to peace for me, because you see a lot of people with billions of dollars who have no peace in their lives. They don't have good relationships, their family doesn't like them. And so when you think financial freedom is just a number, you have missed the mark completely. It is so much more than that. And so financial freedom is, do I have to do what I'm doing to get by? Or do I have options? So it's option, it's margin, it's the freedom, it's the flexibility to go live where you want to live, do what you want to do without being beholden to payments or a paycheck. So yes,

• 50:36George Kamel?

  once your assets can replace your income, that technically is financial freedom. Because you technically have that passive, you know, I'm going to call it passive income. Sometimes you're working, if it's real estate, nothing passive about it.

• 50:48Lewis Howes?

  You're working to manage it.

• 50:50George Kamel?

  Exactly. But if it's in the stock market, if it's in an index fund that spits off 10% on a given year, and that replaces your expenses for the year, and that's why living on less than you make is so important. Because if you make a million dollars, but you only spend a hundred thousand, well, when there's a shift in the economy, you have total freedom. When you have cash in the bank to cover one to two years of your expenses, you're never going to worry about selling off your stocks the worst time in the stock market. So to me, financial freedom is creating that level of peace in every corner of your life so that you can be healthier in every corner of your life.

• 51:24Lewis Howes?

  What's this idea of the doom loop?

• 51:28Lewis Howes?

  Idea of the doom loop? What is the biggest doom loop you see keeping people broke right now in 2026?

• 51:34George Kamel?

  So Dr. Arthur Brooks was on my YouTube channel and he was talking about the doom loop as far as, you know, it was more about addiction in that regard. But then we connected it to money and it was fascinating to see the sort of hedonic treadmill of payments and emotional spending. So we see this a lot with retail therapy. It's a great example. You go out and the most exciting thing is the process of the purchase. The next most exciting thing is when you get the purchase. And then the diminishing returns, it like skyrockets down. So what happens? You feel guilty about making the purchase because it was likely impulsive. It was more than you should have spent. It was on a credit card or buy now, pay later.

• 52:16George Kamel?

  So what do you do when you are anxious, guilty, feeling shame? Well, now I'm going to DoorDash a $30 burrito to eat my feelings. And then go buy more stuff to get that next dopamine hit. So that's what it's all about is we get addicted to the dopamine hit, whether it's sports betting or the prediction markets or retail therapy. Choose your poison, alcohol, whatever the thing is, whatever you do the most, you need then more of it to keep up. And so that creates this doom loop that Dr. Arthur Brooks talks about and it's so prevalent in the money world across the world. I mean, if you look at all of the most popular trends that are hurting people, sports betting, prediction markets, pornography, alcohol, gambling, gambling apps, buy now, pay later,

• 53:02George Kamel?

  all of it is cyclical and causes you to go get more of that thing. None of it is like, hey, I got it, I'm good. It's hey, come back in. And now because it's on my phone, they can market to me. It's a new notification saying, hey, 17 of your friends just bet on this thing. Do you want to get in on it? So now there's socialized peer pressure on top of technological addiction. And then we're wondering why we're all broke, miserable and anxious.

• 53:27Lewis Howes?

  What, do you think the poly market is a really bad thing? I haven't, I've like been seeing people talk about it. I haven't been on there, but what is this? What is this? And do you think it's a bad thing, the poly market?

• 53:40George Kamel?

  Yeah, I'm I'm gonna go as far to say it's it's a cancer on society.

• 53:43Lewis Howes?

  Wow.

• 53:44George Kamel?

  It is like everything that is wrong with the world put into one terrible product. Because what's happening is you're getting a lot of especially young men.

• 53:51Lewis Howes?

  Hmm.

• 53:52George Kamel?

  Who already aren't doing great as far as their vices. And so now they've marketed this thing to be like, well, it's not gambling. You're just sort of predicting on a future event. You're hedging your bets against the future, but it's not gambling. And the companies will even tell you that the CEOs, I mean, John Oliver just did a great deep dive on prediction markets that is well worth the watch and he broke this down. And what happens is these companies have doubled in valuation every year or two. Because everyone's cashing in on it. So now CNN's got the Kalshi sponsored, you know, predictions down at the bottom of the screen the whole time. And so now it's normalized. And when something gets normalized, like we've seen with, you know, you name it legalized

• 54:37George Kamel?

  dispensaries or gambling apps as, you know, Supreme Court said, hey, states can decide. What does every state decide? We want that money.

• 54:45Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 54:45George Kamel?

  Let's open it up. So now you have especially young men, there's an epidemic of young men that are glued to this thing. And they are going, hey, I'm gonna bet if Donald Trump's gonna burp today. I'm gonna put 200 bucks on that. And now there's people streaming. They get, they make their money by streaming themselves following these predictions.

• 55:03Lewis Howes?

  Really?

• 55:03George Kamel?

  Yes. It is insane how far it's gotten. You know, it's like it used to be streaming video games. Okay, that's if you're into that, that's great. Now they're streaming if they made money or not on their predictions.

• 55:13Lewis Howes?

  They're just waiting all day just saying, okay, we're waiting for the news to break if someone, if this hap- how do they even know if this thing actually happens?

• 55:20George Kamel?

  They'll like live stream the C-SPAN, you know, show to see what they say.

• 55:25Lewis Howes?

  I mean, how do they know if some of these things actually do happen? Like this, I don't know, burping thing, like you say, like, how do they even know?

• 55:30George Kamel?

  Well, it's all algorithms and computers tracking it all. And here's what's crazy, the top 1% are getting 84% of the profits.

• 55:39George Kamel?

  Top 1%.

• 55:40Lewis Howes?

  On the, on the.

• 55:41George Kamel?

  On these prediction markets.

• 55:42Lewis Howes?

  How are they getting that?

• 55:43George Kamel?

  So.

• 55:44Lewis Howes?

  They're predicting correctly.

• 55:45George Kamel?

  Very few people are actually making a profit is what's happening. And the stats are crazy. I mean, there's 44 billion made in predictions. Like, that's the pool of money. These companies made $256 million last year just in profits from people losing their money. I mean, so it's, it's no better than Vegas and in a lot of ways it's worse. Because it's so normalized, socialized, and it's in your app, in your palm 24/7. You can bet on anything happening.

• 56:11Lewis Howes?

  It's not gambling. It's not considered gambling legally is what they're saying.

• 56:15George Kamel?

  Exactly. So they've avoided taxes. They've avoided a whole lot of things by convincing everyone that it's not gambling.

• 56:23Lewis Howes?

  Where do you see these prediction markets playing out over the next five to 10 years? Like, in terms of individuals spending money on these things over the next five to 10 years?

• 56:33George Kamel?

  I'm not a betting man, but I would bet that it gets worse.

• 56:36Lewis Howes?

  If you had to put prediction on the prediction market.

• 56:39George Kamel?

  20 bucks, it's gonna be better or worse. I think it's gonna be very similar to buy now, pay later. Where these companies grow and grow and grow, there's more competition. The industry grows as a whole. Now it's, you know, just like FanDuel and BetMGM just integrated themselves into the media. We're gonna see that and we're already seeing it. CNN and CNBC, they're already weaving that in. They're, hey, Polly Market said this and Kashi said this. And they're choosing which one you're gonna partner with. And now, these companies are making a lot of money by including this into their broadcasts.

• 57:15Lewis Howes?

  Is all money made, good money made?

• 57:18George Kamel?

  Ooh. Are there unscrupulous profiteers?

• 57:23Lewis Howes?

  What is the psychology? And the, what happens in the, the mind and the nervous system of a human being? When they make money in a certain way where they know maybe that's not the best way, or maybe it's not in my, my value system. Or maybe I've had to shift my value system to justify making this. Whether it be through drugs and alcohol, through sex, through porn, through selling their bodies, through gambling, through prediction market, whatever it is. Something that's out of alignment with their core values? Or they've had to shift constantly their value system to make sense of how they've made money?

• 58:03George Kamel?

  Is all money made, good money made? Absolutely not. I tell you that because the calls we get on the Ramsey Show, we get people who are, they're questioning, "Hey, how do I leave this field? I don't feel good about it." And it's not even as nefarious as that. It's, "I sell whole life insurance," or "I'm a car salesman." "And now that I'm debt-free, I don't want to feel like I'm a part of this system that's putting people into crippling debt." And so, the good news is, there's a huge financial industry out there. A lot of it is debt-related, but there's a lot of great pockets where you can actually help people and know that it's not hurting them, and that it's not about your commission. You're a sort of fiduciary. You're doing what's in their best interest versus what's best for your own pocket.

• 58:44George Kamel?

  And that's where I think, if it's eating away at you, that's your body telling you, "This is not the job for you." So, that's not a judgment on whatever job you have, but if you're a person who says, "This is my identity. This is the moral values I have, the political values," whatever it is, when there's that cognitive dissonance, that will eat away at your soul. And so, there's a soul tax to be paid, and the longer you stay in that job, the harder it's going to be to recover. And so, I always encourage people, do something where you sleep well at night, knowing you actually help people. Otherwise, you have to either justify it of why it's good, or you have to make peace with it. And making peace with it is way harder. Yeah. Do you believe the American dream is dead?

• 59:31George Kamel?

  If your American dream is owning a private jet, yes, the American dream is dead. That's the bar we've set for ourselves of what the American dream is. You know, it used to be like, you know, a house, two and a half kids, white picket fence, a car. And now, we're mad. That was the boomers' generation. We're all angry at them for ruining everything. So, now, the new American dream for a lot of people, I think a healthier one, is debt freedom. Like, we're all aiming at freedom and peace now, which is the healthiest version. The most unhealthy version of the American dream is, "Get rich quick. I gotta step on everyone else to get to where I want to go." And at the end of it, you go, "Okay, the goal is to make a lot of money."

• 1:00:13George Kamel?

  If you polled 18 to 25-year-olds and said, "What is your goal in life?" "Make a lot of money."

• 1:00:20George Kamel?

  I mean, that's the most viral call I did on the Ramsey show. We uploaded to TikTok. It was an 18 year old who said, "How do I turn a hundred thousand into a million?" By the time I'm 25. And I went, "Okay, so you're 18, 20, so seven years, you want to turn a hundred thousand, so you need $900,000 in growth, or make that much in seven years." So I asked him, "Why?" He said, "I don't know, it was just a question." As soon as I poked one hole in it, he got spooked. But he had no real goal, other than, here's what he was really saying. "I'm scared if I don't have a million by 25, it's too late for me to ever build wealth."

• 1:00:55Lewis Howes?

  Wow.

• 1:00:56George Kamel?

  That my life is going to suck if I don't have a million dollars by 25. So, the American dream, the definition is squishy now. And depending on who you ask, the American dream is to make a hundred thousand dollars, or it's to make 10 million dollars. And so you need to set that bar for yourself, but you need to do it for the right reasons. And it all goes back to, "How secure are you? What are you actually aiming for? Do you have a family?" Because that changes your goal significantly versus the young, single guy who just wants to make a lot of money and live a lavish life. And you can go read Ecclesiastes. Guy named Solomon tried it. Richest guy in history, had it all, and he went, "Everything is meaningless," at the end. He said, "Eat, drink, be married, yes, have a good time, but know that none of this really matters in the end."

• 1:01:41George Kamel?

  And I was like, "That's a, that's a mic drop that I think a lot of young people need to hear." And you hear rich people say it all the time, right? "Money's not everything." And they go, "I'd like to find out for myself."

• 1:01:50Lewis Howes?

  Easy for you to say, because you've got money.

• 1:01:52George Kamel?

  Yeah, as you sit on your yacht, one of your many...

• 1:01:59George Kamel?

  You know, and so that's the hard part, is you kind of need to experience it.

• 1:02:02Lewis Howes?

  How do young people believe older people who have money when they say, "Money is not everything"?

• 1:02:08George Kamel?

  It's just angering to them. They don't want to hear it from someone who has it.

• 1:02:12Lewis Howes?

  Right.

• 1:02:13George Kamel?

  And so that, and that's again where life experience comes into play. You kind of have to get a taste of it, of the thing that you want, to realize it's not going to fulfill you.

• 1:02:23Lewis Howes?

  I'll tell you what, money is, hasn't been the, the reason I am fulfilled, but it adds a lot of fulfillment.

• 1:02:30George Kamel?

  Yes.

• 1:02:30Lewis Howes?

  It adds a lot of fulfillment.

• 1:02:32George Kamel?

  Because you've used it as a tool.

• 1:02:33Lewis Howes?

  Because I've used it as a tool. And being broke wasn't enjoyable either. You know, being broke wasn't fun and fulfilling. But when I was broke, and I found a way to create joy in my life...

• 1:02:48Lewis Howes?

  I was happy. I didn't want to be broke, but I found a way to be happy. And I think that was interesting. I was like, oh, I can enjoy life with very little and I can still have a great time. And have these adventures and have this sense of freedom where I can just jump on a bus and go across the country and like try this new thing. And it cost me 50 bucks. I don't have anywhere to go, but I can do something adventurous like that. That idea of wonder was enriching in my life. Yeah. Once I flipped the interpretation of where I was at in my life. When I was like, oh, I don't need to be rich in order to have a good time. I can do free things. And create cool moments in my life. Now, it didn't mean I wanted to stay poor. I didn't want to stay broke.

• 1:03:33Lewis Howes?

  But I've definitely. It's not a virtue to say I'm gonna stay broke forever. No, no, I didn't want that. I was also scared because I didn't know how to make money and I didn't understand money. I didn't have the knowledge or the emotional intelligence around money. So I was scared of money. So it took me some time to like really start researching and having a language around money and having conversations around it and asking questions around it. To where it felt more accessible for me to earn. I had to learn how to develop internal value and self-worth. So that I could receive money. And I think that was a process for me. But I'll tell you what, if I, you know, having money and earning money has created more value.

• 1:04:16Lewis Howes?

  And confidence in me to enjoy life. But I think, I don't, I don't think I would have been fulfilled. Had I not learned how to also create inner peace in the journey. Because there's a lot of people who have a lot of money. Who are stressed out and overwhelmed all day. And the poor person saying, well, I'd rather have that rich guy's life or gal's life and be stressed than be poor and stressed. Yeah. There's an argument for that, but there's also an immense pressure. And immense.

• 1:04:50Lewis Howes?

  That I've seen wealthy people who are internally sick have. Where they commit horrible actions in life, they do really bad things with the money. They commit suicide because they don't know how to handle it emotionally and psychologically. And so if you are internally sick and have a financial abundance, that's not a good combination.

• 1:05:11George Kamel?

  Yeah.

• 1:05:12Lewis Howes?

  And so it's learning how to have freedom and peace is what I heard from you. That is really the American dream. If you can have inner freedom and inner peace and be debt free. And then learn how to create a financial freedom for yourself, whatever that number is for you. Then you can create that fulfillment of life with it as well.

• 1:05:33George Kamel?

  Exactly. And Dr. Arthur Brooks, he said, there's five things you can do with money and one of them doesn't bring happiness. And this goes back to your point. So the first thing you can do with money is you can buy stuff. Second thing you can do with money is buy your time back. That's a great one. Third thing you can do is buy experiences. Spend money on experiences, especially with people you love. He said that one has the, one of the greatest ROI's. Fourth thing you can do is save money, invest money. Also great, very good feeling. And then the fifth thing is giving money away. And the one thing that won't bring happiness is buying stuff. And what is the one thing we focus on as a consumer culture?

• 1:06:10Lewis Howes?

  Buying.

• 1:06:11George Kamel?

  Stuff. Cause guess what? Rich is visible, wealth is invisible. And so stuff equals rich to a lot of people.

• 1:06:18Lewis Howes?

  It showcases you're rich.

• 1:06:19George Kamel?

  Yeah. No one, I'm not going around with a t-shirt with my 401k balance on it. You know, I don't have a shirt that says, I have inner peace and a 401k. Oh, that could be some good merch. We'll work on that.

• 1:06:29Lewis Howes?

  That's good.

• 1:06:31George Kamel?

  Buying your time back. That's one of the things I've been doing recently, having kids now is how much stuff can I delegate that I don't enjoy doing or that takes me a lot of time? So that I can be more present and focus on things that I'm good at or enjoy. That's a game changer for me. And then buying experiences. I mean, this is the vacations, the trips, the memories. Like when your kids are older, that's the stuff, the core memories made from like 10 to 16. Those are formative for your kids. And so that's where I want to focus on. Instead of, yeah, but I had some pretty sweet stuff that my kids ended up having to send to Goodwill after I died.

• 1:07:05Lewis Howes?

  Right.

• 1:07:06George Kamel?

  And so that, to your point, the older you get, the more mature you get, the more secured you get, the more you focus on those other four areas. And too many people have over indexed on stuff because the easiest one to show people that you've made it and to show yourself that you've made it.

• 1:07:23Lewis Howes?

  If someone is a compulsive buyer of things,

• 1:07:27Lewis Howes?

  what is missing inside of them that requires them to constantly buy online, offline to feel good?

• 1:07:35George Kamel?

  Well, the root of that is discontentment and what's underneath that could be a myriad of things, but namely it is there was something that happened in my life, probably a past trauma or a childhood, a scarcity thing where I learned that the way I could cope was by getting a thing. And that thing could distract me for enough time that I didn't have to deal with the real pain underneath.

• 1:07:59Lewis Howes?

  Man.

• 1:07:59George Kamel?

  So that's the heart of it. And most people, if you pulled them and said, hey, what's really going on? And I sat, you know, they were with a therapist for three weeks, we could probably get to the root of, I see what happened. That trauma, you didn't know how to deal with it. You didn't have the tools to deal with it. So you just said, I'm going to go into a bunch of debt to try to feel something because I'm not getting this thing over here. And so there's a lot of just unhealthy behaviors underneath the surface that manifest themselves as impulsive spending. And sometimes there is addictive behaviors that need to be dealt with. And that's why I always tell people to add friction back in your life. Take away all of your ability to impulsively spend, whether it's through accountability with a spouse, removing your debit card info, don't have the app on your phone.

• 1:08:42George Kamel?

  You know, it's like if you had a bunch of junk food in your pantry, are you going to be more tempted to eat junk food?

• 1:08:48Lewis Howes?

  100%.

• 1:08:49George Kamel?

  And if your pantry is filled with, you know, clean foods, I'm in the green room over here, we were just joking about how clean the foods are, everything's high protein, all the drinks are super clean, no sugar. And I'm going, yeah, well, Lewis is going to be healthier if he doesn't give himself access and temptation to the things he knows are bad for him.

• 1:09:07Lewis Howes?

  Yes.

• 1:09:08George Kamel?

  And yet, when it comes to money, we give ourselves unfettered access to all the things that are destroying our life. And then we wonder why we're not where we want to be, we're not feeling how we want to feel. So the solution is so much more simple than we would give ourselves credit for. But it's to add friction back to our lives, make things intentionally a little more difficult, because that's where the true peace and growth lie. And the easier you try to make life, the more comfort you chase, the more miserable you'll end up being. And Michael Easter wrote a great book on this called The Comfort Crisis, where he talks about it, kind of how we got here. And he has a whole, you know, a website called 2%, where he goes, 2% of the people will take the stairs, 98 would take the elevator.

• 1:09:52George Kamel?

  And so it's do the hard uncomfortable thing, because that's what creates a fulfilling life, not chasing the easiest path that was laid out before you by marketing companies.

• 1:10:03Lewis Howes?

  What would you say is your biggest struggle with money today? From being, you know, at The Ramsey Show and teaching these things and applying it, what is your biggest challenge still that you deal with around money?

• 1:10:16George Kamel?

  I've done the StrengthsFinder assessment, and my number one was futuristic. So I'm always so focused on the future, and I have financial plans for days, until I am 98, here's what the net worth might be, here's what I could do, here's all the variations and projections, and I have a really hard time stopping myself and say, "Stop. You're good. You don't need another goal. Be content with the life you have, be present with the people around you, and stop being so focused on, okay, what's the next thing? What's the next thing?" And that is, that is the one thing I really struggle with today. And part of it is because I'm a nerd and I just enjoy it.

• 1:10:55Lewis Howes?

  Yeah, it's fun.

• 1:10:55George Kamel?

  It's like a hobby for me.

• 1:10:56Lewis Howes?

  It's fun.

• 1:10:57George Kamel?

  I don't golf, I don't work out. I make financial projections on my phone and whittle at them and have fun with that. But there is a real truth to it that I am, I need to work on my own version of what contentment looks like when it comes to wealth, because I know the goalposts will move.

• 1:11:12Lewis Howes?

  Yeah, once you hit it, then what?

• 1:11:13George Kamel?

  Yeah, you see this with the FIRE movement, financially independent, retire early.

• 1:11:16Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 1:11:16George Kamel?

  You'll see the threads and they'll go, "Hey, our goal is 2 million, but now we're thinking 5 million." Just with the way things are going and kind of how we want to live our life. And then when they get to 5 million, what happens? Well, I think 10 million, you know, with inflation. I mean, I feel like 10 million is probably a safer bet. Then they work jobs they hate that are burning them out. They're making great money, a couple hundred thousand dollars if they're shoveling it all away. That's kind of how the FIRE movement works in your, in your twenties, thirties, and maybe even forties. But then they're burnt out and they spend the rest of their life trying to recover from the marathon they just ran. That wore them out. And so there's a, I think, just a healthy balance of moderation here. Of be intentional, but don't lose your soul to some financial goal.

• 1:11:58Lewis Howes?

  Wow. What is the, what is the philosophy of the FIRE movement?

• 1:12:02George Kamel?

  The philosophy is, I don't want to have to work till I'm 65 and not have that freedom to do what I want to do. To set my own schedule. And therefore, what I'll do, which this is the one good thing about it, is that delayed gratification. I'm going to work my tail off. I'm going to make as much money as I can, spend as little as I can, and invest the difference. So it's just taking a good thing to an extreme. Anytime, anytime you take something to an extreme, it usually ends up being unhealthy.

• 1:12:31Lewis Howes?

  It's like financial minimism.

• 1:12:32George Kamel?

  Yes. And so it's cool because they, they're not living flashy lives. They're driving the, the older cars. They're not taking all the trips, but at what cost? And so I'm a big fan of, live your life how you want to live it now while preparing for the future. And then you can change some dials on there. You don't need to work till you're 65, but let's also not villainize work. Because what happens is they find an encore career, because someone who's making $200,000 had a lot to contribute to society.

• 1:13:00Lewis Howes?

  And you stop giving value to people just to like sit on the beach all day?

• 1:13:04George Kamel?

  You get bored real quick.

• 1:13:05Lewis Howes?

  I'm bored.

• 1:13:06George Kamel?

  Exactly. And so they find themselves with an encore career, doing the thing they probably should have been doing all along, maybe even making more money.

• 1:13:12Lewis Howes?

  Because they're good at it. And they found like, oh, I'm good at this and people find value from this and I get paid really well. And wow, amazing.

• 1:13:19George Kamel?

  Exactly. So there's a balance to be found there. And that's the one thing I'm struggling with is, how aggressive should I be? How can I ratchet down and enjoy life more now and spend more on, you know, my wife wants to go to Disney. My daughter's two and a half, my son's seven months. And you're like, and you're like, oh, this is for us. And that's okay.

• 1:13:39Lewis Howes?

  It's not for the kids because they can't enjoy it. Yeah.

• 1:13:41George Kamel?

  And once I had, once I told myself, it's okay. Not everything has to have intense utility for it to be good. And I'm such a utility guy.

• 1:13:49Lewis Howes?

  Really?

• 1:13:50George Kamel?

  I have a hard time letting go and going, this is a waste of money and it was worth it.

• 1:13:54Lewis Howes?

  Man.

• 1:13:55George Kamel?

  I want to waste money in the right ways.

• 1:13:56Lewis Howes?

  That's what you did with that jacket, right?

• 1:13:57George Kamel?

  Exactly.

• 1:13:58Lewis Howes?

  You know, you wanted to look good.

• 1:13:59George Kamel?

  I want to look good for Louis. I said, let's really spread. Now Louis wants.

• 1:14:02Lewis Howes?

  I love that jacket. It's a nice jacket.

• 1:14:04George Kamel?

  Next time, we're going to be in matching jackets.

• 1:14:05Lewis Howes?

  I like it. Yeah, I like that a lot.

• 1:14:06George Kamel?

  If I had muscles like you though, everything would be short sleeved. I just want you to know that. I'm hiding a lot here.

• 1:14:11Lewis Howes?

  I like that, man. That's cool.

• 1:14:13George Kamel?

  I appreciate it.

• 1:14:13Lewis Howes?

  What's one thing, if you had to spend? And indulge money that you would never spend on something in the next 12 months. That would bring you more joy and live in the moment now. What would that be?

• 1:14:27George Kamel?

  Oh.

• 1:14:28Lewis Howes?

  Thing, trip, item, whatever.

• 1:14:33George Kamel?

  So the, the two areas that we focused on, my wife and I, because now she stays home. So we met at Ramsey. So the money, goals and values.

• 1:14:41Lewis Howes?

  Alive.

• 1:14:42George Kamel?

  Already there. It's beautiful. We saved a lot of time on our, on our dates without having to talk about all that.

• 1:14:46Lewis Howes?

  Sure.

• 1:14:46George Kamel?

  And so she ended up staying home when we had our first kid after her nine year career at Ramsey. And so my big focus, I said, hey, the home is now your office. So when we bought our new house, I really wanted it to be beautiful. And the amount of upgrades you can do to a home on a new build, it's insane.

• 1:15:01Lewis Howes?

  So much.

• 1:15:01George Kamel?

  And so we did a lot of splurges because I wanted, we like an aesthetic home. And it's just for us to enjoy. We're not like, like, you know, no one's seeing the inside of our house.

• 1:15:09Lewis Howes?

  There all the time. So you want to enjoy it.

• 1:15:11George Kamel?

  Exactly. And I realized a lot of times when people go spend a lot of money and want to leave their house and go to bars and eat out. It's because their own space is not a fun space to be in. It's kind of depressing. And so I wanted to make our home really beautiful. So we put a lot of money into that. Uh, to make that an awesome space. And then car, I finally upgraded because Dave was making fun of my, my cars. Uh, I didn't do it for Dave, but I did get a Tesla just to piss him off again. So. I got a newer Tesla. It's 13 years newer than my last one.

• 1:15:41Lewis Howes?

  Wow.

• 1:15:42George Kamel?

  Which, you know, technology, I mean, Tesla started about 13 years ago.

• 1:15:45Lewis Howes?

  Way better now.

• 1:15:46George Kamel?

  So that was a absolute game changer. And in my mind, the fact that old George would be like, you did what? Are you serious?

• 1:15:53Lewis Howes?

  It brought you a lot of value.

• 1:15:55George Kamel?

  Yeah.

• 1:15:55Lewis Howes?

  And every day you get to experience that value, right?

• 1:15:57George Kamel?

  Exactly. So there are things that I still think are, I think I'll go to the grave thinking they're a, a waste of money. Things that I, like a DoorDash, for example.

• 1:16:05Lewis Howes?

  Oh, yeah.

• 1:16:06George Kamel?

  Even when I'm, if I was a billionaire, I would still be like, yeah, I'll just go pick it up. I'm not, I'm not going to pay double for that same burrito. I'd have to be real desperate. You know, if you live in LA like here, I get it. It would take you three hours to go out and do anything in LA.

• 1:16:18Lewis Howes?

  Yeah. If it's always five minutes down the road, you can go pick it up.

• 1:16:20George Kamel?

  But I actually enjoy doing the things my, I enjoy going to the grocery store.

• 1:16:24Lewis Howes?

  That's cool.

• 1:16:24George Kamel?

  Versus getting Instacart.

• 1:16:26Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 1:16:26George Kamel?

  I like the, the hunt and the search. So.

• 1:16:28Lewis Howes?

  That's cool.

• 1:16:28George Kamel?

  The things I think I could ratchet down and enjoy more are those experiences and trips. Where I go, you know what? This is really, the kids may not remember, but we'll have the photos and videos. And so that's the part I'm, I'm giving into my wife on this one.

• 1:16:42Lewis Howes?

  What's the one trip? Oh, so you guys got to do Disney then?

• 1:16:45George Kamel?

  I think we have to at this point. Yeah. In the fall. Whenever I did, so I used AI to tell me, what is the best day to go to Disney with the least amount of crowds?

• 1:16:54Lewis Howes?

  That's great.

• 1:16:54George Kamel?

  As I get older, I think I have like sensory issues. I don't like loud environments. You know, crowded environments. So I need it to feel like I can breathe.

• 1:17:04Lewis Howes?

  Good luck at Disney.

• 1:17:05George Kamel?

  Exactly.

• 1:17:05Lewis Howes?

  There's no off day.

• 1:17:06George Kamel?

  That's why I'm like, what is the day with the least amount of people? I don't care if it's miserably cold.

• 1:17:11Lewis Howes?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 1:17:12George Kamel?

  I'll be out there in a jacket.

• 1:17:13Lewis Howes?

  There's no cold here in LA either. It'd be nice.

• 1:17:15George Kamel?

  Yeah, I should come there. That's where I need. Forget Orlando.

• 1:17:18Lewis Howes?

  Go to Orlando.

• 1:17:19George Kamel?

  It's just so much closer to Tennessee as the crow flies.

• 1:17:22Lewis Howes?

  That's true.

• 1:17:22George Kamel?

  You know, you take a trip with a toddler and an infant, you're like, maybe we should have chosen the shorter flight.

• 1:17:27Lewis Howes?

  That's true. That's true. Uh, this has been awesome. Uh, George, you've got an amazing show, YouTube channel, Smart Money Happy Hour. You're all over social media, George Kamel on social media as well.

• 1:17:40Lewis Howes?

  And you're doing a lot of man on the street content now, which is kind of cool. So you're going out there and you're asking people, the real people, what's going on and you're getting the content.

• 1:17:48George Kamel?

  Harassing strangers for views. It's a lot of fun.

• 1:17:51Lewis Howes?

  That's.

• 1:17:52George Kamel?

  It's voyeuristic, I think is what people enjoy about it.

• 1:17:54Lewis Howes?

  I gotta try that at some point. It's figuring out like how much time it takes. You said it just takes so much time.

• 1:17:59George Kamel?

  Oh, it's a good, you know, you're out there four or five hours in the elements.

• 1:18:02Lewis Howes?

  You might get a video, right?

• 1:18:03George Kamel?

  I mean, you've been solicited by strangers in the street.

• 1:18:06Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 1:18:06George Kamel?

  Not exactly.

• 1:18:07Lewis Howes?

  I'm going to my next thing, yeah.

• 1:18:08George Kamel?

  Yeah. Now you, you're a more intimidating figure.

• 1:18:10Lewis Howes?

  Right.

• 1:18:11George Kamel?

  But I also think people would rather talk to you than me. So I think you've got a shot.

• 1:18:14Lewis Howes?

  You never know. What if you offered people a hundred dollars to give you a conversation, have a conversation?

• 1:18:19George Kamel?

  Wow. We should try that. I'll see if Dave Ramsey is willing to foot the bill.

• 1:18:22Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 1:18:23George Kamel?

  So Dave, we need a thousand dollars every shoot to talk to 10 people.

• 1:18:26Lewis Howes?

  Hey, you get a lot more videos.

• 1:18:28George Kamel?

  But you don't want, if then they're forced to talk to you, I want them to, I want them to want it.

• 1:18:32Lewis Howes?

  That's true. Want it. Want to suffer with me.

• 1:18:34George Kamel?

  Exactly.

• 1:18:34Lewis Howes?

  Reveal yourselves.

• 1:18:35George Kamel?

  I think the reason people love it and watching it is because they want to see how they stack up. It's a little bit unhealthy, but also very entertaining.

• 1:18:42Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 1:18:43George Kamel?

  And I can do my best teaching in a casual conversation versus a direct to camera.

• 1:18:47Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 1:18:47George Kamel?

  It's not as heavy handed.

• 1:18:48Lewis Howes?

  That's good.

• 1:18:49George Kamel?

  Cause now you're learning through their mistake and me pointing out, hey, if you invested this much, you could have this much in retirement.

• 1:18:55Lewis Howes?

  Wow.

• 1:18:56George Kamel?

  And I, I convinced an 18 year old day trader to open a Roth IRA and invest instead.

• 1:19:01Lewis Howes?

  Right there?

• 1:19:02George Kamel?

  He said, I've never heard of investing. What is that? I said, you know how to day trade? But you don't know what investing is? And I said, if you delete the day trading app, I'll give you our budgeting app every dollar. I will show you how to open a raw IRA so that you're actually building for the future instead of speculating, hoping to make a buck. And so that was, I feel like I did a good deed that day.

• 1:19:22Lewis Howes?

  What's the difference between day trading and prediction markets?

• 1:19:27George Kamel?

  You know, they're very similar in that they're both speculation. You're just sort of fingers crossed. It's gambling, but it's better branding. I find day traders tend to be more sophisticated because it is more, you need to have more know-how. Anybody can say, you know, what's gonna, you know, what's gonna happen on the news and what's gonna happen? Is the Strait of Hormuz gonna open this week? Yes or no? That's an easier thing than learning how to day trade and going through a prop firm.

• 1:19:56Lewis Howes?

  And being on there all day or whatever it is, yeah.

• 1:19:58George Kamel?

  Yeah, it takes a lot of time. And the truth is, you know, 97% of people do not profit if they stick with it for a year.

• 1:20:06Lewis Howes?

  Really? Day trading?

• 1:20:08George Kamel?

  So it's a real, the stats are sad. You have a better shot making money with a multi-level marketing company than you do day trading.

• 1:20:15Lewis Howes?

  What is one stat around money or the economy right now that has blown you away?

• 1:20:21George Kamel?

  Oof, 4 in 10 people have $0 in savings. That one kind of shook me. And it spoke to this idea that why are we going into crippling debt? Because we don't have any money to pay for the thing. And so there's this endless cycle. It's a doom loop where I don't have the money, so I go into debt. And then another thing happens and I have to keep going into debt because I wasn't able to save up because I was making the payments. And that's how you get stuck in the cycle. And I think if more people realize that your emergency fund is a never go into debt again insurance plan, they would make it a priority. They would get rid of the debt, free themselves of those payments, stack the cash in a savings account, in a high-yield savings account, don't touch it.

• 1:21:03George Kamel?

  It's a breaking case of emergency, not I want to go on the trip impulsively. And if you did that, we would see such a shift in the economy when it comes to how stressed people are, how anxious they are, the kind of jobs they had to work, you know? And that's the most heartbreaking calls when people are working because they have to and not because they want to. And that's where these people end up if they keep living this way. And so no matter how old you are, it's never too late. And we get calls of people in their 60s and 70s who finally decide enough is enough. I'm gonna, I'm gonna have a life of dignity, even after, you know, four decades of mistakes. And bad decisions. You can still turn it around. It's just harder the older you get.

• 1:21:40Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 1:21:41George Kamel?

  So when 20 year olds go, man, I'm so dumb. I go, great. You got it over with early. Now you get the rest of your life to make wise decisions.

• 1:21:48Lewis Howes?

  Yeah. Don't wait till you're 60.

• 1:21:50George Kamel?

  Yes.

• 1:21:50Lewis Howes?

  What would be three money rules? If you could only apply three in your twenties and thirties that every person had to do in their twenties and thirties, what would those three money rules be?

• 1:22:00George Kamel?

  Oh, I love this. Okay. Uh, number one, take debt off the table. Mortgage excluded. But if you can take that off the table and say, I'm not gonna have a credit card. I'm not gonna go into credit card debt. I'm gonna avoid a car payment by saving up and paying cash, upgrading over time. Uh, your life will be so much better than all of your peers who got there faster. You know, it's, it's the hair. They have the nicer car before you did. But man, when you got there, it was so well earned and you got peace the whole way there. So taking that off the table would be number one. Number two would be investing in a Roth IRA. That is after tax money that grows tax free and you don't have to pay Uncle Sam ever again.

• 1:22:44George Kamel?

  That to me is the greatest life hack. Meaning if you could have $2 million of net income because it's in a Roth IRA and it doesn't take much, a hundred bucks a month at 20 will get you there. Versus, you know, you're gonna spend hundreds more as you get older. So maxing out a Roth IRA is a life hack. If you can do that, the sooner the better. You're gonna retire with dignity, taking debt off the table. And lastly, would be the budget. Download the Every Dollar app, list out your income, list out all of your expenses. You don't have to spend six hours whittling away at an Excel spreadsheet. All it is is saying, hey, here's how much is coming in. Here's how much is going out. Am I happy with that? Are there any tweaks I'd like to make so that future me is proud of myself?

• 1:23:26George Kamel?

  Instead of going, man, I made great money. I got a raise last year and I didn't feel it at all. You took on a bigger payment. You spent more on eating out. And so, you know, you, you give yourself the wiggle room. You're gonna take it. And so adding that friction back in by staying on a budget, taking debt off the table and investing early through a tax advantaged retirement account like a Roth IRA. I don't see how you couldn't have a life of financial freedom and peace.

• 1:23:53Lewis Howes?

  Hmm. What's the budget app again you guys?

• 1:23:55George Kamel?

  It's called EveryDollar.

• 1:23:56Lewis Howes?

  EveryDollar.com or what is this?

• 1:23:58George Kamel?

  Yeah, EveryDollar.com or you can go to your app store, Google Play and get it. Our team upgraded it recently to where it has the Ramsey Principles baked in. So we'll actually show you custom recommendations to find more margin based on everything you've told us.

• 1:24:11Lewis Howes?

  That's cool.

• 1:24:12George Kamel?

  So it's really cool because it's no longer just putting your numbers in. We're carving out a path for you to get out of debt faster, get the emergency fund faster and have more margin to build wealth. And so it's really, it's been souped up in the last six to 12 months.

• 1:24:27Lewis Howes?

  That's cool.

• 1:24:28George Kamel?

  And we're really excited about it.

• 1:24:28Lewis Howes?

  EveryDollar.com or EveryDollar on the app.

• 1:24:31George Kamel?

  That's right.

• 1:24:31Lewis Howes?

  Store. What I'm hearing you say, the theme throughout this is if you can create financial friction in your life right now, you can eventually become financially free.

• 1:24:42George Kamel?

  Tweet that. That's exact. I should have said that earlier. You got away with words.

• 1:24:47Lewis Howes?

  Well, I'm just hearing what you're saying and I'm repeating it back. That the more we create financial friction, meaning take debt off the table, take credit cards out, like make it harder for you to say, oh, I have to take my cash out and buy this now. Do I really want this or not? When you do that and you create a budget and a plan to start investing the moment you hear this, like how can I start somewhere investing for my future? You will create more financial peace and freedom later.

• 1:25:17George Kamel?

  Exactly. That's the whole goal of the YouTube channel is to convince an entire generation from, you know, 20 to 45 plus. I mean, I have people who are in their 60s watch it, people who are seven years old watch it and go, thank you for number one, making financial principles understandable and entertaining. Cause I think if we can use humor, it kind of takes down the wall of like money's scary and money is shameful and money's guilt. Instead it goes, let's laugh while we learn about what the heck a Roth IRA is and, and you know, what are, what's worth spending money on? Cause money is, it's a tool and for most people, it's an obstacle. And so that, that gap between turning money from an obstacle to a tool takes a lot of hard work and that's what those Ramsey Principles allow you to do that

• 1:25:58George Kamel?

  with a purpose. Live and give like no one else. Generosity is on the other side. That's the most fun you can have with money. And I think most people don't realize that until they're way later in life.

• 1:26:09Lewis Howes?

  How many Ramsey, Ramsey Principles are there?

• 1:26:11George Kamel?

  There are seven baby steps.

• 1:26:13Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 1:26:13George Kamel?

  That sort of lay out the financial plan. It's pretty simple. Baby step one, $1,000 starter emergency fund. Baby step two, get rid of all your consumer debt using that debt snowball method. Baby step three, save up three to six months of expenses in an emergency fund. Baby step four, invest 15% of your income into tax advantaged retirement accounts. Baby step five, if you have kids, put some money aside for college in like a 529 plan, an education savings account, let it grow with compound interest and growth. And then six is pay off the house early. And you have the margin to do that because you have no payments. And so you can pay off the mortgage early. And then baby step seven is this endless mountain top experience where you get to live and give like no one else, build wealth, max

• 1:26:55George Kamel?

  out retirement, go on the craziest trips. I mean, the things that we hear people doing. We had a call, can I go on a $25,000 European vacation and take my whole family? And we were like, yeah, you're worth $5 million. Just go ahead and do it.

• 1:27:09Lewis Howes?

  Yeah. If you've done all these other steps.

• 1:27:12George Kamel?

  Exactly. You've earned it. And then we get the call of someone who wants to go on a $2,000 trip and we have to tell them no because they're $100,000 in debt. And so it really is dependent on your financial situation.

• 1:27:24Lewis Howes?

  If you were able to add one extra value to the Ramsey values yourself from everything you've learned in life, what would be the George Kamel money value that you would add?

• 1:27:36George Kamel?

  That's a good one. I'll give you a tactical one. And that is to invest outside of retirement. Once you've got your retirement locked in. So, once you're investing 15% into retirement, I love the idea of creating this, this freedom fund, this bridge account where let's say you do want to be work optional in your 50s. You don't have to work until 60 to access those retirement accounts. And you have the freedom to go, you know what? I'm 50. The kids are about to head to college. Let's take some crazy trips. Let me take a year off. And so when your boss, you know, starts mouthing off to you again, you go, you know what? I'm out of here. I don't need the money. I'm good. And so that to me is, is a path to financial freedom that a lot of people don't think about, that they can invest outside of retirement.

• 1:28:18George Kamel?

  But I have a smart spender framework that I would add, it's a layer on top of the Ramsey principles. And it basically is your permission to spend. And so S is for self-awareness. Will this really add value to my life? The M is for motive. Am I buying this for the right reason? A is for affordability. Can I afford this in cash, in full? The R is for research. Have I actually researched all of the options out there? Is this the best option retailer and price I can find versus impulsively clicking the first thing? And then T is for timing. Is now the right time to buy this thing? It may not be a bad thing, but it might be the right, the wrong time to buy that thing. This is opportunity cost. You know, if I spend five grand on the vacation, I can't put five grand toward the car fund that we desperately need.

• 1:29:02George Kamel?

  And so if you can go through those and say yes to all of them, you can spend with, with such intentionality and confidence. And too many people just don't have a framework to spend. They just do it impulsively or with guilt and then go, I shouldn't have done that.

• 1:29:15Lewis Howes?

  Yeah. Where can they get that framework at?

• 1:29:17George Kamel?

  That's in, in my book, Breaking Free From Broke. I've got a whole chapter called Spending is Self-Control. Where I walk through how to sort of free yourself when it comes to spending. And I, I wrote that chapter for me. As someone who needs to let go, so I need to create a framework for myself.

• 1:29:31Lewis Howes?

  That's great, man.

• 1:29:32George Kamel?

  To feel good about it.

• 1:29:33Lewis Howes?

  That's great.

• 1:29:35Lewis Howes?

  This has been awesome, George. I got one final question. I asked you this before in the last episode. If people haven't seen it on the Delta flight yet, you know?

• 1:29:41George Kamel?

  That's right. I love, that's so cool, by the way, the partnership with YouTube.

• 1:29:44Lewis Howes?

  Yeah, it's good. But I'm curious if your definition has changed. So we'll have to go back and see what it was before. But what is your definition of greatness?

• 1:29:56George Kamel?

  Do you have one that you're, is there, is there a standard definition that you use?

• 1:29:59Lewis Howes?

  Everyone has something different.

• 1:30:00George Kamel?

  Okay.

• 1:30:01Lewis Howes?

  Everyone has something different. I can share my, I've shared mine on here a bunch, but it's, um, I won't muddy the waters for you. But it's, uh, it can be whatever's on your heart and mind right now.

• 1:30:11George Kamel?

  Greatness to me, it's gotta be something that is inspirational and aspirational.

• 1:30:16Lewis Howes?

  Doesn't have to be. Whatever you're.

• 1:30:18George Kamel?

  This is me telling you.

• 1:30:19Lewis Howes?

  Yes, okay.

• 1:30:20George Kamel?

  It's something that you never arrive at. I think it's, it's almost like a virtue of bettering yourself, not for yourself, but for everything and everyone around you. To me, that's, that's true greatness. If you're great just for yourself, that's ego and narcissism. But if you are pursuing greatness, pursuing personal growth, professional growth, so that you can create a legacy, make an impact, bless those around you. There is no better definition of greatness to me. My man, George.

• 1:30:50Lewis Howes?

  Thanks. Thank you, Luke. I hope you enjoyed today's episode and it inspired you on your journey towards greatness. Make sure to check out the show notes in the description for a full rundown of today's episode with all the important links. And if you want weekly exclusive bonus episodes with me personally, as well as ad-free listening, then make sure to subscribe to our Greatness Plus channel exclusively on Apple Podcasts. Share this with a friend on social media and leave us a review on Apple Podcasts as well. Let me know what you enjoyed about this episode in that review. I really love hearing feedback from you and it helps us figure out how we can support and serve you moving forward. And I want to remind you, if no one has told you lately, that you are loved, you are worthy, and you matter.

• 1:31:35Lewis Howes?

  And now it's time to go out there and do something great.