20VC: 7 Predictions for How AI Changes the World: Labour, Engineering, Social Media, GrokBots Buying Cybercabs and more with Matteo Franceschetti, Co-Founder @ Eight Sleep

AGENDA: 04:30 How Do You Hire Exceptional People in the AI Era? 08:00 What Actually Works in Growth—and Why Can't You Trust Meta's Numbers? 17:00 How to Run Hundreds of Millions in Marketing with Zero Employees 19:30 "Our Engineers Stopped Coding": What Stack Does Eight Sleep Use? 24:00 Is China Leaving the Rest of the World Behind? 35:00 How Do You Turn Superstar Athletes into Investors and Brand Ambassadors? 43:00 What Happens When Your Co-Founder Is Also Your Wife? 51:30 Should You Match Anthropic's Salaries—or Let Your Best People Leave? 59:30 Will Children Born Today Ever Need to Work? 01:05:00 What Drives You to Succeed—and Why Can't You Ever Switch Off?

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Speaker 00

  Well, our engineers stopped coding around a year ago. A great brand with a shitty product goes nowhere. I'm extremely demanding, like I'm a weirdo, but business-wise, like no mercy. Sometimes people say, oh, I'm at the final stage with Anthropic and Eight Sleep. And to me, that is a really bad red flag, but it means you're confused. There is no way that these two jobs are any way similar. Our revenue per employee is way higher than Apple. Kids that are being born now will never work, at least for money. I'm the type of guy that when I have a goal, then you don't stop me, like I become a beast.

• 0:33Harry Stebbings?

  This is 20 VC with me, Harry Stebbings, and in the hot seat today, we have Matteo Franceschetti. What a fantastic surname. Now, he's done loads of shows and the joys of doing a second show with someone is you get to ask questions that no one else can answer. The really kind of risque ones, which push someone to a place where they might not feel that comfortable and definitely haven't gone before. That's what happened today. We go into places where Matteo has never answered questions. We have a totally off-the-cuff, very unfiltered discussion with probably one of the most impressive founders in hardware, having scaled the business to multi-billion dollar valuations, single-digit churn rates, incredible global business that now open even in China.

• 1:13Harry Stebbings?

  This is one of the most unfiltered versions of Matteo and Eight Sleep that you have seen yet. But before we dive into the show today, we used AlphaSense on an investment that helped us close an eight million dollar deal. Eight million dollars, baby, that's a lot of money. That's why I'm genuinely excited to have them as a partner on 20 VC. AlphaSense combines AI with one of the world's deepest libraries of market intelligence, including expert interviews, broker research, earnings calls, company filings, and real-time news. Every answer is grounded in this incredibly trusted evidence and fully traceable to the original source, which is so important. So you can make really high conviction decisions with confidence. But the best part, they're building super analyst and always on AI analyst.

• 1:56Harry Stebbings?

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• 2:40Harry Stebbings?

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• 3:24Harry Stebbings?

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• 4:03Harry Stebbings?

  Build custom code components, manage CMS content, optimize SEO, and audit for issues all in one place. Enterprise-grade hosting, security, and 99.99% uptime SLAs, trusted by leading brands like Perplexity and Miro. Learn how you can get more out of your site from a Framer specialist or get started building for free today at framer.com/20vc for 30% off a Framer Pro annual plan. That's framer.com/20vc. Rules and restrictions may apply. You have now arrived at your destination. Matteo, it is so good to have you in the hot seat, dude. You know, last time we did the show and you had like a hiring playbook.

• 4:45Harry Stebbings?

  And I remember it went insanely viral afterwards and so many people talked to me about that ever since we did it. So I'm really excited for this as a second discussion. Thank you for doing it, dude.

• 4:53Speaker 00

  Yeah, thank you for having me.

• 4:55Harry Stebbings?

  I think that hiring today is harder than it's ever been just because of the prices on offer at OpenAI, Anthropic, and some of the other places. Even the shiny new hot startups, how do you think about that? Am I wrong? Has it changed in terms of talent competitiveness?

• 5:10Speaker 00

  We are back to 2021, and that I think is becoming a problem in the US, meaning salaries are going out of control, competition.

• 5:18Harry Stebbings?

  What makes you say that, like engineer salaries?

• 5:21Speaker 00

  Any salary, even for product managers are out of control right now. They get insane offers from any company or there is a lot of money going around. And so we are focused more and more on hiring in Europe and outside the US. Because the other problem is not even the salary and is not even attracting them on T0, but is retention. Because then they keep receiving offers. If you are a cool company with a cool brand, then they keep receiving offers over and over at a higher salary.

• 5:50Harry Stebbings?

  Have you lost people to OpenAI and Anthropic? You know, I'm invested in many companies and they're just like, God, we're getting eaten alive by OpenAI, Anthropic, Cognition, you name these hot companies.

• 6:00Speaker 00

  Yeah, we couple the other ones are could be AI companies that are doing extremely well or they just raise money. And it's normal competition, but sometimes the delta in salary and in comp is so big that at that point, there is nothing you can do.

• 6:14Harry Stebbings?

  We mentioned Cognition a couple of times. We were talking earlier about your angel investing as well. How has being an angel investor changed how you think about operating?

• 6:23Speaker 00

  It's a game changer for me, and I think that is something is not shared enough, particularly on X. The amount of learnings that you get from being an investor is insane because it's essentially you build your own intelligence. As you receive investor updates, you understand how the market is moving, what are the valuation, what are the multiples, what kind of profiles they are hiring, what channels might be working. I receive these from companies that are not competitive with Eight Sleep, but as a founder, you just get a sense of the market and I find that super valuable.

• 6:54Harry Stebbings?

  What's been the biggest lesson from angel investing?

• 6:56Speaker 00

  The biggest learnings is always on fundraising, right? You see how much they're raising and what valuation, what multiples, or what investors, that's one. The other biggest lesson is for other companies that are still consumers to see channels, what channels work for them, or what markets work for them.

• 7:14Harry Stebbings?

  What do investors not understand about hardware that they should? You're advising me, I'm your buddy, I have a fund and I want to invest in hardware. What are you like, dude, before you do it, you should know this.

• 7:25Speaker 00

  That probably the founders in the first year of the company or in the first probably, let's say, three months, they don't fully understand what the cost of producing that device will be. They don't understand the return rate. And so everything they tell you about BOM and COGS will probably be off by at least 50%.

• 7:43Harry Stebbings?

  Does CAC go down over time?

• 7:45Speaker 00

  It really depends. And so that is another thing you want to assess, which is word of mouth. In our case, word of mouth keeps compounding. We are around 40% of our revenue, even at our size, which start being really big, is 40%.

• 7:58Harry Stebbings?

  40% of your revenue stays word of mouth?

• 8:00Speaker 00

  Yep.

• 8:01Harry Stebbings?

  What's your second biggest channel?

• 8:02Speaker 00

  Then you start getting into paid media.

• 8:05Harry Stebbings?

  And that's just Meta?

• 8:06Speaker 00

  Yeah, then it becomes Meta, Google, TikTok, and all those channels.

• 8:10Harry Stebbings?

  Can I ask, how do they compare? I'm a content, hopefully specialist at this point. No one that I speak to has managed to make TikTok work, have you?

• 8:19Speaker 00

  We did, actually this year in the past six months.

• 8:21Harry Stebbings?

  How?

• 8:22Speaker 00

  It's usually a matter of amount of content that you can generate with TikTok influencers.

• 8:28Harry Stebbings?

  So it's about getting a UGC program in place?

• 8:31Speaker 00

  Yep.

• 8:31Harry Stebbings?

  Is there a big budget for you tied to it?

• 8:33Speaker 00

  The way we usually approach these channels is we start unlocking a small budget per week. We start looking at the CAC, we've set a cap to the CAC, and then they can deploy as much as they can within that cap. But then as they prove it, they can deploy more money. So to me, they could deploy $100 million if they are within CAC, the cap of the CAC. The important thing you need to do regularly, probably every six months, is an incrementality test. And so we might turn off TikTok in certain states in the US or in certain geos, and we start A/B testing what is the growth rate or is the revenue rate. So we want to see how much each channel is incremental because we don't look at the CAC from the platform.

• 9:16Speaker 00

  We have our own models now that determine the CAC of each channel.

• 9:20Harry Stebbings?

  Sorry, can you tell me about that? You have your own models to determine the CAC from each channel. Why is that?

• 9:25Speaker 00

  Well, because you cannot trust there will be an excess of attribution from the same platform. We do the same with Meta. If you look at the CAC on Meta, it's probably 20% lower than what the true CAC is. And the only way you can do it is by doing this incrementality test. And so let's say you pick two geos that they perform similarly. Let's say you pick Texas and California, that is not the right example, but.

• 9:49Harry Stebbings?

  Dude, you're speaking to a Brit, that'll totally work for this example.

• 9:52Speaker 00

  And so then you turn off Texas and you start seeing what is the delta in performance of that state versus. The other, so how much revenue you lose. So if they were both growing fifty percent year over year, you start turning off meta in one or the other, you can immediately calculate the value of meta for that state.

• 10:11Harry Stebbings?

  Does every brand need to have their own models to accurately?

• 10:15Speaker 00

  Oh, it's hundred percent because otherwise they just fool themselves.

• 10:18Harry Stebbings?

  When, when did you start? Because it's one of those ones which you can't do from day one.

• 10:22Speaker 00

  No, and you will screw up multiple times. And the point is you need to keep doing it because as you add more channels, the incrementality of each channel will not be the same.

• 10:33Harry Stebbings?

  How did you think about that channel addition? Because I see so many founders try and be everywhere to everyone. And how do you think about that?

• 10:40Speaker 00

  I disagree with that. So you need to go one channel at the time. I was even talking to a common friend recently, who was asking me about that and say, okay, can I go in all these channels? How much money should I put? Should I start putting a hundred K in each of them? And I say, no, no, no, you go one by one. You start with meta is probably the biggest and the one that you should prove the fastest. And you start with, based on the size of the company, a certain amount per week. You set the cap to the CAC you want to achieve. And then from there, you start scaling only if you are within CAC. Because otherwise you start throwing money out of the window. Your growth people, they will always want to grow faster. And so they will always want to spend more and then you start losing control. And what happens then? Let's say by the end of the year, you realize you screw up and so you start pulling back.

• 11:24Speaker 00

  And then the following year, you're not growing year over year because you're spending less. And so you need to be disciplined now if you want to be successful next year and keep growing year over year.

• 11:33Harry Stebbings?

  It's really interesting about how you kind of gamify growth numbers because you're right, you spend, you get four hundred percent growth. You pull back hard and you get seventy percent. Good luck fundraising when you're going from four hundred to seventy.

• 11:44Speaker 00

  We could be growing fifty percent more if we wanted year over year this year, just by spending more. But then next year you're in trouble because your CAC is upside down.

• 11:52Harry Stebbings?

  Do we care about economics from day one? You said there about start with matter. Do we care about economics from day one in terms of optimization? Or actually is it like, hey, customers are engaging, they're liking product. If we're doing a one to one, you know, for every dollar we spend, we're getting a dollar back, great. Or should we be looking for optimal returns early?

• 12:12Speaker 00

  Well, in our case, we look at the immediate payback period. This is actually something where Keith was really pushy and he was correct since day one. So he wanted us to have an immediate payback period. And then we have what we call contribution margin. So is what is the margin on day zero? Then we have a subscription and the subscription will compound on top of that. But we want to have that contribution profit on day one to be really healthy. If we were compressing that, we could be growing fifty percent more, but then the business wouldn't be public ready or as healthy as it is today.

• 12:46Harry Stebbings?

  What would you most like to do if economics were not a part of your business? It could be massively increase the quality of a certain point. It could be pour fuel on the fire on matter like never before. Take economics aside.

• 12:58Speaker 00

  Well, you could reduce prices and I think we will see an acceleration. Or you could just deploy probably more into marketing, which is probably what I would prefer. I'm never a fan of compressing prices. You know what Andreessen says, that if you have a great product, people will pay for it. But at our stage as a company, even if we start fairly large, brand awareness is still probably the biggest bottleneck.

• 13:21Harry Stebbings?

  You have a subscription business as well, which obviously really provides a lot of juice to your margins. Because you have an upfront cost in the thousands, it's relatively expensive product for a lot of people. Do you just inherently have very low churn rates on your subscription product? Because you have the buy-in of multiple thousand dollars invested upfront.

• 13:39Speaker 00

  Yeah, it's world class. Our churn is the lowest of any company you can think of.

• 13:45Harry Stebbings?

  What is the churn?

• 13:47Speaker 00

  Is in the single digit, low single digit yearly churn. Even if you compare to other companies in the wearable space that are going public, we are better than them.

• 13:58Harry Stebbings?

  Who could that be?

• 14:00Speaker 00

  Who could that be?

• 14:01Harry Stebbings?

  I don't know, dude. That's absolutely hilarious.

• 14:03Speaker 00

  But it's world class. It's like unseen.

• 14:06Harry Stebbings?

  Going back to the channels, and I'm sorry for focusing on channels, I just, I'm a real nerd about channels. Has your Google spend changed in the wake of bluntly AI and AI-driven search impacting so much?

• 14:17Speaker 00

  Yes. And so we introduced a new channel that now we monitor that is literally what we call AI SEO. Now, in the report that I receive weekly, twice a week, there is also AI SEO. And so we see how we rank in AI searches.

• 14:32Harry Stebbings?

  What percent of traffic today is from AI searches?

• 14:36Speaker 00

  I don't have a number for that. I can check, but it keeps growing.

• 14:39Harry Stebbings?

  But is it like one percent or like twenty percent?

• 14:42Speaker 00

  Probably somewhere in the middle, but then we start seeing an impact on Google. Our assumption is that Google is behaving differently because of AI searches.

• 14:50Harry Stebbings?

  What was your biggest channel mistake? Where did you spend money that you shouldn't have done? And you're like, ah, I learned a lot of lessons from this.

• 14:58Speaker 00

  Out of home. Everything depends on the scale of the business in that country. So we tried to do a campaign, an out of home campaign in the Middle East, but we were not ready yet. So if we were doing an out of home campaign in New York, where we are decently known, it would perform very differently than the same campaign in the Middle East where we just launched a year ago. And so those are the things I'm learning that I didn't know.

• 15:23Harry Stebbings?

  When are you big enough to do out of home? Because I think one thing that we've seen in the last, you know, two years, so to speak, is tech companies realizing the importance of brand marketing, out of home, football shirt sponsorships, you name it. And it supposedly performing well. How big do you have to be to do out of home?

• 15:39Speaker 00

  I don't think there is a hard number, but you want to be a brand that is decently well known. And so I make it up. If hundred people see that ad on the street, I don't know, five percent of them knows the brand. And so that is one of the other things that we monitor, that is this aided and unaided brand awareness to understand how many people know the brand. And if they know the brand, they know what the brand does.

• 16:05Harry Stebbings?

  How much did you spend on out of home?

• 16:07Speaker 00

  Nothing now. But we created a truck now that goes around Silicon Valley. And so you can book the truck and it comes to your home and you can try the product live. So this truck has a bedroom built in in the back of the truck. But now the truck also goes to specific events or to specific areas during the weekend where there are many people. And we are seeing pretty good success because there are a lot of people that wanted to try our product, but they couldn't. And now when they see the truck, they just get into the truck and try the product and buy it.

• 16:39Harry Stebbings?

  That's a phenomenal channel and it doesn't, and you're going to have like high conversion rate on that.

• 16:43Speaker 00

  Yeah, it's doing pretty well.

• 16:44Harry Stebbings?

  That's fascinating. I'm also really impressed that TikTok works for you because TikTok is freaking hard.

• 16:49Speaker 00

  Yeah, it was not working in the past, then we kept iterating and it just started working six months ago.

• 16:56Harry Stebbings?

  How big is the marketing budget today?

• 16:58Speaker 00

  In the hundreds of millions.

• 16:59Harry Stebbings?

  In the hundreds of millions?

• 17:00Speaker 00

  But the story I can tell you is, for example, before we had an email marketing team, now we have zero. Everything is done through AI and email marketing makes a very large amount for us. And everything is run by AI.

• 17:13Harry Stebbings?

  How?

• 17:14Speaker 00

  So what happened is we were forced to that, meaning we had a team of two. Then the person leading the team was leaving. And at that point, my co-founder Alexandra jumped in and said, okay, let me see how I can use AI to really make this work. And within three days, she was able to build multiple bots that now run all our email marketing. And so now we have a team of zero and email marketing makes close to a hundred million.

• 17:39Harry Stebbings?

  I just want to understand because we have an email newsletter and there's people that do it. And it's still pretty average, I think. When you say bots, what you build your own?

• 17:49Speaker 00

  So for us is obviously there is a calendar of what emails needs to be built and created and sent. This is based also on the history, so we have historical data. And our AI suggests, okay, when to send what email with what copy.

• 18:03Harry Stebbings?

  And when you say your AI, it's like your models, it's using Gropod, it's using?

• 18:07Speaker 00

  We probably, I mean, we should check, but I would imagine we are using Claude for that. Then internally, we have probably by now hundreds, if not thousands of agents that we use internally at Eight Sleep. So now we, I started measuring what I call the human employees, but then there is also the AI employees. And probably the AI employees are, I mean, without probably, we are probably three, four X bigger if you start including all our AI employees.

• 18:33Harry Stebbings?

  Where is it most significantly impacting the company?

• 18:36Speaker 00

  Growth, because email is like that. Now also our digital marketing, our team receives a report every morning from our AI agents suggesting what changes to do or not to do, and they approve or reject. And so also our marketing business is run, our growth is run by a few people right now.

• 18:57Harry Stebbings?

  I worry that in a world of infinite content supply, discovery becomes impossible and we just get flooded. Do you worry about that too?

• 19:05Speaker 00

  Definitely. But at the same time, I think that the personal agents will look for the best product. And so if you are the best product, you will still win. So yeah, there will be probably, for humans, right, the amount of content will be too much. And so we'll need to think about how we show up to humans, where humans go. That is how I think. But then you need a different strategy for their agents to make sure that their agents find you and recommend you.

• 19:30Harry Stebbings?

  We said there about kind of the amount of agents that you have. Engineering is one where consistently across the board, everyone's engineering teams are being changed unbelievably. How is AI changing your engineering team at Eight Sleep? What are you using? What are you not using? How do you think about that?

• 19:45Speaker 00

  Yeah. Well, our engineers stopped coding around a year ago. Since then, they didn't code. What they have is hundreds of AI engineers that they code for them. And that is how we can achieve what we are achieving at scale in 35 countries, including China, including Middle East, including Europe, where there are a lot of regulations in all of them, with a fairly tiny team.

• 20:07Harry Stebbings?

  What tooling do you use?

• 20:09Speaker 00

  Really Claude.

• 20:10Harry Stebbings?

  How much do you spend on Claude a month?

• 20:11Speaker 00

  It keeps growing so fast that I don't know.

• 20:14Harry Stebbings?

  Is it like five million?

• 20:15Speaker 00

  No, it's lower than that, but it's still in the millions.

• 20:19Harry Stebbings?

  And the thing I'm trying to understand is, Mark Benioff said that they spend 300 million a year on Claude, and they have a 6 billion budget for engineering. 5% of engineering salaries being spent on Claude in particular. And my question as an investor is will it stay at 5%, in which case, eh, we can justify the $2 trillion IPO, but it doesn't have massive expansion from there. Is it a case of the 5% is just the start, baby? We're going to go to 25%, in which case, material has loaded up on Anthropic's IPO? Or is it the case that actually we're going to see the commoditization by open models, most of workflows are going to get taken by them, and that 5% could go down to 1% as we see efficiency?

• 20:57Speaker 00

  Yeah. I think there will be two vectors in the opposite direction. The usage will increase, and so the 5% will become 50%, but the cost will go down. And so net-net, I think it will go down. I was listening to an interview to Sam Alman recently, and he was saying that in the early days, to pay for one hour of electricity at night, you had to work five hours, just to give you a sense of how expensive electricity was in the early days. And now, nobody cares about, I don't even know what's the cost of electricity at night in Miami where I live. And so I think the same thing will happen.

• 21:30Harry Stebbings?

  Do you find it a bit scary that intelligence is now free and like entirely distributed?

• 21:34Speaker 00

  Yeah, it's something I, I, yeah, I think about all that, right? And how businesses will change, how our business will change once that intelligence is semi unlimited.

• 21:45Harry Stebbings?

  I asked the Instinct this morning to do an in-depth analysis of three of our biggest competitors Instagram channels, because I want Instagram to be a real driver for us moving forwards. What works, what doesn't, what themes work, what hooks work, what layouts work, what doesn't, what captions work. It was incredible. And I said, can you suggest three stories every single day for me at 8 a.m. to do? First one starts tomorrow.

• 22:05Speaker 00

  Yeah. The amount of productivity will explode. It's probably like when we went from no computers to computers, or probably even bigger industrial revolution or agricultural revolution. We are facing one of those moments.

• 22:17Harry Stebbings?

  Knowing what you know now as a consumer and customer of Claude, would you buy Anthropic at the IPO?

• 22:22Speaker 00

  I would probably buy. I still think there is so much upside in all these companies. I'm really bullish on SpaceX personally.

• 22:30Harry Stebbings?

  Why? What drives that?

• 22:32Speaker 00

  So here is another theory that I have, and ours is just my opinion, but I think with AI, the right companies will transform themselves in holdings. And so what it means is that whatever Eight Sleep is doing today will be one of the businesses that we do. But with AI, as we build tools for ourselves, we'll discover other opportunities, business opportunities. And so the Eight Sleep Inc. will probably own three, four, five, 10 different businesses, which if you think, and if you look at Chinese companies, is something they have been doing forever. If you look at Xiaomi, Xiaomi does 15 different things. I just watched their latest presentation from their CMO. I look at a lot of Chinese companies because they are geniuses, right? They never stop themselves. Xiaomi, instead

• 23:17Speaker 00

  of being just like Apple, they also do cars, for example. They do so many other things.

• 23:21Harry Stebbings?

  And fridges and outlets.

• 23:23Speaker 00

  Literally. Anything hardware related, anything that is a smart home. But then they also get into components, like some of the components, like BYD develops certain components well outside the car and automotive. So these companies have already proven that the concept of focus is not, oh, you keep doing the same thing forever. It's just, I have certain capabilities, then how can I use these knowledge and capabilities in any form? And with AI, we will all do that.

• 23:51Harry Stebbings?

  I'm loving this conversation. And the joys of like doing second choices, like they're much more casual, which is much better to listen to and also much more fun to do. Do you worry when you see the excellence of these Chinese manufacturers in specifically the kind of automotive industry, that it's just going to hollow out the European car market?

• 24:09Speaker 00

  Yeah, I think Chinese, they really nail, particularly automotive. And based on my understanding, what happened is around 10 years ago, they understood that they didn't want to compete with European manufacturers on standard engines. And that is when they decided to double down on electrical technology. And since then, they started developing their cars. But I go to China often for work. Now, we sell in China, but we also manufacture in China. And when you see the quality of their cars, because in the past, we used to think that some of these products were just, you know, cheap and ugly. Well, instead, now they design cars. Xiaomi, if you go to their stores, it looks like an Apple store, but there are cars, there are no other devices for the home. These cars, they literally

• 24:53Speaker 00

  look like a Ferrari aesthetics, or they have these seats that turn, so you can just sit and then.

• 25:00Harry Stebbings?

  I've seen, I've seen the TikTok say that. It's so cool.

• 25:03Speaker 00

  It's incredible.

• 25:04Harry Stebbings?

  Screens come down.

• 25:05Speaker 00

  Screens come down.

• 25:06Harry Stebbings?

  Stars on the ceiling.

• 25:07Speaker 00

  Massage. Everything is voice control. So they're really focused on the customer experience, and it's incredible. And I think a lot of other manufacturers around the world, they don't, they don't focus enough on the user experience.

• 25:19Harry Stebbings?

  Completely get you and agree with that. But as your wonderful accent denotes, you are Italian.

• 25:25Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 25:25Harry Stebbings?

  And a huge amount of the European industrial economy is rotating, centered around cars.

• 25:31Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 25:32Harry Stebbings?

  Do you worry about that?

• 25:33Speaker 00

  Well, I worry even more about another factor. I think all the Chinese manufacturers, they will become robotic companies. I think all these automakers should transform themselves and start building humanoids, because the humanoid will be what cars were in the 60s. If they don't do that, they will not lose only cars, they will lose also the humanoid market, which is trillions of dollars.

• 25:56Harry Stebbings?

  Are you seeing the advancement with humanoids in China in a way that you really didn't expect?

• 26:00Speaker 00

  Yes. I don't know if you saw the, I don't know what was the formal name, the Olympics of robots?

• 26:06Harry Stebbings?

  The humanoid games, I think.

• 26:07Speaker 00

  Yeah, it's insane. The way I look at that is, okay, you look at the thing, it looks a bit funny, they look a bit clunky, but they start doing the things. Knowing how fast AI is moving, if next year, those same games will be mind-blowing. That is what worries me. What I saw today, right, if you're just, if you just look at that, you say, oh, look at the thing, like these robots, no, they are not really good at walking. Even if they did the records in the 100 meters, there was a robot that ran faster than Usain Bolt. So they know how to do.

• 26:39Harry Stebbings?

  That was, I did a video on this. There was a robot that beat the high jump.

• 26:43Speaker 00

  Yes, I saw that. And as we're the fighter, you know, the fighters.

• 26:48Harry Stebbings?

  Tennis, like real-time tennis.

• 26:50Speaker 00

  The tennis was really cool.

• 26:52Harry Stebbings?

  It's insane.

• 26:53Speaker 00

  Yeah. But in one year from now, we will be blown away at this, at this speed of AI.

• 26:59Harry Stebbings?

  Did you see the paper last night, or essay or post last night from someone at OpenAI, Sam promoted it, that basically said, we actually need to put a slight pause on this. It is getting too far, too fast.

• 27:10Speaker 00

  Yeah. I think the part that is worrying everybody is the part of self-learning from these models. And so they are getting to the point where they train themselves. And that is when we start losing control. There is a point, even in our.

• 27:22Harry Stebbings?

  Do you not think we're already there?

• 27:23Speaker 00

  I think we are. Then I think there is a big delta between what we see as users and probably what the frontier model companies have in ours. And I think they have already seen it behind the scene. You have seen some of the things that are happening already in terms of cybersecurity, in these civilizations, that there were three attempts of civilization, I think, in an OpenAI model where agents were building their own group.

• 27:49Harry Stebbings?

  I'm gonna go there. You sell in China. You spent a lot of time in China. A lot of your investors, including Keith Raboy, who's a friend of mine, fucking hates China. How do you reflect on that? Is it as evil and CCP driven as it seems? Are we in a deglobalized world that should hate China? How do you think about that?

• 28:08Speaker 00

  Yeah, I don't have a specific opinion on that, so I cannot really comment. I can just tell you, for us, it's a key market, it's a big opportunity, and we decided to sell there, and it's doing really well for us.

• 28:20Harry Stebbings?

  Is it very different selling in China?

• 28:22Speaker 00

  Yes, because you cannot sell on eadsleep.com. Literally, you don't sell on a website. They don't use websites. And so for us, was literally learning everything from scratch.

• 28:32Harry Stebbings?

  What do you mean they don't sell on a website?

• 28:33Speaker 00

  Chinese don't buy on websites. There is no e-commerce as we know it. They only buy on their super apps. So on WeChat, Red Note, and equivalent. We had to learn all that.

• 28:44Harry Stebbings?

  What the fu— so where do they land? Like, you send a referral link to your friend? But where's the referral link from? I'm confused.

• 28:51Speaker 00

  Yeah, imagine that everything, the equivalent is oversimplified. It's like if you were buying everything on WhatsApp. They don't go on it, on any website. Websites are at the most just literally like if you just wanna scroll and see some picture and read a bit more about the product. But all the purchases, all their credit cards are on Red Note or kind of Amazon equivalent and WhatsApp equivalent, or TikTok, obviously.

• 29:15Harry Stebbings?

  Does that impact how you think about how we should think about security for these AI assistants? But everyone now is like, oh, I would never put my credit card in Instinct. What if it gets hacked?

• 29:25Speaker 00

  Yeah. I think the solution for that to me is, for example, my Grok bot is buying things for me already, but is using Amazon on the browser. And so Amazon has my credit card. And so there I feel confident, because I'm not sharing my credit card with AI yet. I think in AI, where we were with credit cards on knowing spending and buying things on the internet 20 years ago, where people, particularly European and Italian, I was still living in Italy, they literally didn't want to put their credit card on any website, because they thought it was a scam. And sometimes there was a scam back then. I think we are at the same point with giving our credit card or information to these bots. It's still a bit, you know, sometimes you feel uncomfortable. But I think in a year or two from now, our bots,

• 30:10Speaker 00

  particularly bots from frontier models, like from X, OpenAI, and Claude, you will start trusting them soon.

• 30:17Harry Stebbings?

  What seems crazy today that you think will be very common in five years? I totally remember, I wasn't allowed eBay when I was young, because my parents were like, no way are you putting credit card details online. I remember when it was like, you think you're gonna find a partner online? These apps are ridiculous. Now 60% of relationships are online, and I think we live online transaction-wise.

• 30:39Speaker 00

  Probably your bot buying a cyber cab that will start making money for you. So you will buy a cyber cab that makes money for you with a bot, and the bot runs the cyber cab.

• 30:51Speaker 00

  That would be pretty sick.

• 30:52Harry Stebbings?

  I mean, it's not that far off happening now.

• 30:55Speaker 00

  Yeah. And then there will be the health part. That is another area where I hope that cancer can be solved within 10 years. I think companies like Aids Sleep will be able to save your life, save the life of millions of people.

• 31:07Harry Stebbings?

  Does the Aids Sleep product actually change that much with the greatest of respects in a completely AI-driven world?

• 31:12Speaker 00

  Hundred percent. We start seeing the likelihood you develop diabetes in our data, hypertension. We are becoming a medical device for sleep apnea. So your bed will become the most advanced medical platform you ever had.

• 31:26Harry Stebbings?

  You said about retail earlier. I bet retail has been a question for you for years, and I bet there's been different board conversations had. How do you think about when's the right time? Because you're still not, still D to C. How do you think about when's the right time?

• 31:40Speaker 00

  Well, let me step back for a second. One thing I'm learning as an entrepreneur is there is a time for things, right? Similar to what I was telling you about the out-of-home campaign. Nailing the timing of what you do, so when you do what, is actually really important for CEOs. Because it's not that it's binary that, I don't know, retail doesn't work or out-of-home doesn't work. No. It works, but there are some second or lower level conditions that are required to make that project work. And so I think for Aids Sleep, that is happening now. And so you should imagine retail to become a meaningful part of our channels in the next month, years. But before, it would have been too early.

• 32:20Speaker 00

  Same for China, right? Launching in China, one thing I spoke to a lot of Chinese founders, and what they told me is, sometimes when they start their consumer products, they actually start selling outside China first. And I said, why? You have such a big market and you know the market. And they say, because the Chinese market, they love to buy products that are already well-recognized in the Western world. And so you wanna build the product and the brand first in the rest of the world, and then you come back to China. Otherwise, in China, you would be one of many knockoffs, and it would just be a price war. And so I didn't know, we just decided to launch China, and so we were just doing it. But I didn't understand that for us was the right time to get into China, because now we're already selling in 35 countries.

• 33:03Speaker 00

  We are well-recognized. We sponsor Charles Leclerc and I work with Ferrari through Charles. That is a very well-recognized brand. Many athletes use us. Elon spoke about us. Mark Zuckerberg spoke about us. Elon is really big in China, right? And so you have a level of trust where you command a certain price. But if we were doing the same thing five years ago, we would be destroyed by a knockoff that is 500 bucks cheaper.

• 33:27Harry Stebbings?

  I was, I had Hugo Barra on the show, who was a former ZET from Xiaomi, and he taught me something very important in Harvard, and I'm intrigued if you agree with it. He said, you need to be one of two things. You either need to be price king, which is I'm the cheapest, or feature king, which is I'm the best. Do you agree with that?

• 33:42Speaker 00

  So I agree and disagree. I agree that you can be the best price, that's not what we wanna be. Or I would call it the best product and brand. Not that there's so much about features, but the brand is really important. And so being a brand that is associated with, again, the Charles Leclerc, with Elon Musk, people they really respect, they want that. And the same happens in Europe, right? I grew up and I remember when I bought my iPod. It was impossible, and I was buying a second-hand iPod on eBay back then, but because Americans were having this product and it was not being sold in Europe yet. There is that kind of FOMO.

• 34:19Harry Stebbings?

  I completely agree. Listen, a thousand songs in your pocket in a beautiful poster. Did Samsung and all the others did a thousand songs in your funky device too? It was the same in many ways.

• 34:30Speaker 00

  Hundred percent the same. And Steve Jobs has always been a genius, because he was coming with a great product after everybody else, sometimes one, two, three years later. But he was nailing the branding, the packaging, and the peach, and everybody, and after the look, and everybody wanted it.

• 34:46Harry Stebbings?

  What do you think people don't consider about consumer brand enough?

• 34:50Speaker 00

  The brand, particularly, I think in Silicon Valley. I think in Silicon Valley, we understand really well building the best product, but I think we underestimate the importance of brand. Then, a great brand with a shitty product goes nowhere. So first is product. But then you need to be able to build a brand that is aspirational and can command a certain price.

• 35:09Harry Stebbings?

  Charles Leclerc is a phenomenal talent, for those that don't know, in the racing world. One of the best. How does that come to be? You get a DM from Charles saying, I love Aids Sleep, do you wanna sponsor me? How does that come to be?

• 35:21Speaker 00

  Yeah. Well, it's pretty incredible, the story. So we got connected. So Charles already had our product for two years before we met, and we didn't even know. And that is the best way, obviously, for us to start the relationship. Then, I'm an F1 and motorsport obsessed fan, like obsessed. I know everything since when kids racing go-karts. So I knew about Charles six, seven years before he got into F1. And three years before F1, he was racing, two years before, he was racing in F2. And at the time, I reached out to his team in F2, and I say, I'm a huge Charles fan. I think he will make it big. Is there any way where Aids Sleep can sponsor him? But at the time, Aids Sleep was very tiny, and so we couldn't find any real deal.

• 36:03Speaker 00

  But when I met Charles, I still had the email, where I was not going back and forth with his team, and I wanted to sponsor him before he even made it to F1, not to Ferrari, before F1. And then I shared with him our vision, our medical vision. He really cares about that. And he's actually really into AI, is incredible, super sharp guy, super into AI. And we had dinner together, I think it was the Wednesday of the GP in Miami. And before the end of the dinner, we say, we're gonna do, we're gonna work together. And the deal since then was done in a matter of days.

• 36:35Harry Stebbings?

  Can I ask how much it cost?

• 36:36Speaker 00

  No, I can share. What I can tell you is that Charz invested in Eight Sleep. I was honestly, first, really happy because he was one of my heroes. But second, I think that proves what I was telling you, how smart he is, also as an entrepreneur and a businessman.

• 36:54Harry Stebbings?

  Can I ask you, I think a lot more celebrities and athletes are obviously trying to be investors and wanting to invest today than ever before. What would be your biggest advice to other founders on how to get them and how to get the most out of them as a founder of a company?

• 37:07Speaker 00

  Well, we made a lot of mistakes with that, too. And now it's probably four or five years that we invest in sport because obviously we have Charz. But we were sponsoring the UAE team with Pogacar. Pogacar was installing our product every single night at each hotel of each stage of the Tour de France since last year. We didn't even know. He won last year and then he won this year. So they reach out after the first year and say, look, Pogacar did everything on his own. We bought the product. Now everybody in the team wants it and we do something together. So we sponsor the UAE team this year. And then we are in Padel with Arturo Coelho and Federico Chingotto, so number one and number three in the world. We are in tennis, where we sponsor a lot of coaches, including the coach of Sabalenka and many others.

• 37:51Speaker 00

  And there are a lot of top, top athletes that use our product. It's not public.

• 37:55Harry Stebbings?

  But what would you advise founders on lessons from how to get great talent? And then it can be celebrity investors, too, pop stars, DJs, you name it, and how to get the most out of them? Or do they just not have that?

• 38:05Speaker 00

  Well, there are two conditions for any deal now. First, they need to use the product. If they already use it, they bought it on their own, perfect. Now we can talk about not doing a deal. If not, they need to try it and then we want to hear the feedback. They need to know the product, otherwise it's just a pure business transaction and I don't like it. Second, I want to have a direct relationship with them. Usually sometimes managers, they don't want that and they want to try to be in the middle. But if I don't have the direct relationship with the athlete, we're not going to do the deal. Because then it's just a financial deal and at this point, we don't care. I want to be connected to the athlete. I want to know that they love our product.

• 38:39Speaker 00

  And if they don't, it's fine, but then the relationship will never work, particularly in a product like ours where these people, the biggest value they do is just by talking to their friends about how good our product is. They really need to be bought in. If they just have a stake in our company because they put a few million dollars, you don't go anywhere.

• 38:58Harry Stebbings?

  Who would you most like to have on the cap table who you don't have?

• 39:01Speaker 00

  Probably...

• 39:03Harry Stebbings?

  Do you have Cristiano Ronaldo?

• 39:05Speaker 00

  No.

• 39:05Harry Stebbings?

  He would be amazing.

• 39:06Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 39:06Harry Stebbings?

  Have you seen pictures of him training?

• 39:08Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 39:09Harry Stebbings?

  I'm a straight man. My God, this guy's body is incredible. I lifted it and then I lifted it myself and it just felt like, oh, dear.

• 39:18Speaker 00

  For us, there is a big difference between the athletes that we can disclose and the athletes that use the product. Some of the top, top tennis players, the pingas, then in all the Grand Slam, they sleep on our product. In F1, we have probably 80% of Formula One drivers sleeping on the product, including the people that are winning. But we are not allowed to share that, right? It's a private confidential relationship.

• 39:41Harry Stebbings?

  Do you have any wild stories of like delivering it somewhere crazy for someone last minute because they need it?

• 39:48Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 39:48Harry Stebbings?

  You don't need to say the person.

• 39:49Speaker 00

  Yeah, I'm not sure the name, but there is this really, really famous football player. And so he tries the product at a friend's house. And then his team reaches out and say, this, no, the athlete wants the product. Can you install it for him? Can you come and let him try it at home? So the team goes. But once they get there, he has this very unique, special sized 300K mattress. And our product doesn't fit because we have, I don't know, the queen, the king, not the standard sizes, but this was unique and customized. And so the team is leaving, but then the athlete says, no, no, no, okay. Would you mind installing this in my kid's room? They say, fine, because that was a standard sized mattress. And so we installed it there.

• 40:31Speaker 00

  A week later, the athlete calls us and say, look, I'm going to give away my 300K mattress, but I'm gonna move Eight Sleep in my bedroom. I need it for my own performance. And so he threw away the 300K mattress and then now he sleeps on Eight Sleep.

• 40:46Speaker 00

  That was really sick. Oh, there is this other story that is really cool. So we give one of the most famous actors in the world gets our product as a gift and he loves it. He absolutely loves it. And then he buys 10 of our products for everybody in his family. Then I go to this dinner and this famous actor comes in and there is me and some top, top CEOs, but CEOs of 100 billion plus companies, right? He starts shaking hands and he spent literally three seconds with everybody, hi, like three seconds. Then he comes to me and he realizes I'm the CEO of Eight Sleep. And at that point, we start talking together for like literally five minutes, to the point where the other CEOs before, they were looking at me like, who is this guy? And after that, they were looking at me with a lot of respect.

• 41:30Harry Stebbings?

  What is the most amount of Eight Sleeps one person has bought?

• 41:35Speaker 00

  A very famous person that everybody knows has 55 for his houses. But then there are other people that buy through embassies and they bought in the hundreds.

• 41:48Harry Stebbings?

  Someone bought 55 for their houses? What?

• 41:51Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 41:52Harry Stebbings?

  Did you get a discount?

• 41:53Speaker 00

  No, these people don't ask for discount. They just reach out and they, their team, and they just ask to help for the setup or not to place such an order because...

• 42:04Harry Stebbings?

  That is wild. I love that.

• 42:06Speaker 00

  Well, there is another story. There is this couple and they reach out because wherever they go, if they stay in an hotel for, I believe, longer than three or four nights, they buy Eight Sleep for that, to install in that hotel. Yeah, because they can't sleep without that and obviously they're...

• 42:24Harry Stebbings?

  Do you mind that Eight Sleep is such a premium product? Would you like it to be more for everyone?

• 42:28Speaker 00

  We want to democratize sleep. So the way I always say is imagine if we were Tesla, we are the Model S. There will be the roadster, so there will be something even better. But you will also see us coming out with the Model X and Y and three.

• 42:42Harry Stebbings?

  Do you worry about income inequality? I know it's kind of a, but we've talked about people just buying 55. You operate in a world where you see extreme wealth. I do as well. Do you share the concerns?

• 42:53Speaker 00

  I do. The way I think is, okay, how do I democratize better sleep? If our product was $100, probably by now we will have sold billions, like literally, because people really, really like the benefits of what we do. And so it's our job as a group of, now an engineering group, even if I'm not an engineer, to make sure that we can keep reducing prices. So everybody can get better sleep.

• 43:14Harry Stebbings?

  You said earlier about your co-founder, Alexandra. I hope it's okay, she's also your wife.

• 43:20Speaker 00

  Yep.

• 43:20Harry Stebbings?

  How does that work most efficiently? What lessons do you have? What works? What doesn't work?

• 43:26Speaker 00

  Yeah, so we have two different channels. So one is Slack for work and one is WhatsApp for private communications of our life and we never mix them. And so I might be screaming on Slack, we have to get this done by the end of the day and let's review this at 9:00 PM. And then on WhatsApp, it might be, oh, what do we have for dinner? I'm creating pizza. I don't eat carbs. We cheat on Friday, Friday night is when we have pizza, but as a joke. So that is one. Second is I could talk about work all the time, like literally 24/7.

• 44:01Speaker 00

  I love that and it helps me for her instead, like a certain point, she, she really wants to operate like if she was an executive, that you wouldn't bother after a certain time in the night, like at 10, 10:00 PM. Okay, if it's urgent, you can talk about that. But otherwise, if we are on the couch watching TV, don't just keep talking about work because my brain needs to digest the information from the day and that is how she, you know, she performs. But then what I can do, I can Slack her. So sometimes we are on the couch watching TV, I start coming up with ideas and I start slacking her and her phone might be vibrating next to me and I know that it's me and it's completely fine. And we don't talk about that, even if I'm there writing a couple of messages.

• 44:41Harry Stebbings?

  And that doesn't irritate you?

• 44:42Speaker 00

  No, because I think the way she framed it was extremely smart. And she says, if I was an executive that was not sitting next to you, would you call them for this thing at 10:15 PM? Say, no. And she says, so just treat me how you would treat our VP of Ops, who is in New York.

• 44:59Harry Stebbings?

  Would you not? I will call people at 10 or 11:00 PM.

• 45:03Speaker 00

  Well, it depends on if it's urgent or is a random idea or is something that we need to remember. If it's urgent, I call you midnight, 2:00 AM, 3:00 AM, like, trust me, I'm gonna come to your door at 5:00 AM. I'm that type of guy. But if I just have an idea that maybe for the next launch of the next product in the video, we should talk about this, I can just send you a note.

• 45:24Harry Stebbings?

  When was the most challenging time?

• 45:26Speaker 00

  For the company?

• 45:27Harry Stebbings?

  For the scaling of your relationship in the company? Because there's always like break points, you know?

• 45:32Speaker 00

  In the early days, I think. Now, probably, I don't know, four or five years, I think we are really fine tuned. Even because I'm extremely demanding, like I'm a bit binary on the thing, like I'm a weirdo. And so I can be a husband on one side, but business wise, like no mercy. We have to do what we have to do and I can be the CEO if I deserve to be the CEO. And she can do her job if she deserves that job.

• 45:55Harry Stebbings?

  Where were you not demanding enough, where you should have been more demanding?

• 45:59Speaker 00

  No, impossible. If anything, I do the opposite. I'm way more demanding than what I would do. What I probably had to learn on my side in the early days, when you're so close to a person, you might act or behave in a way where you still pretend the same things, but you're not as professional as you would be with another executive. That is no.

• 46:20Harry Stebbings?

  Arm blank.

• 46:21Speaker 00

  Yeah. And so that was one of her points where she pushed me in the early days and say, I have no problem in you being extremely demanding and pretending this by this time of the day. But the words that you use and how you say it, it cannot be just like I'm your body. You need to treat me professionally like an executive. And there is where I had to step up.

• 46:39Harry Stebbings?

  I get in trouble for treating mine like an executive. She's like, I'm not an executive. Don't treat me like one.

• 46:47Speaker 00

  No, for us is that to the point where I think Delian and Keith, when they invested for the first year, they, I'm not sure, they didn't even know we were married. Obviously, you disclose it when you do a round. So it has been disclosed in every round. But because of the interaction in the board meetings, they didn't even realize that. You could ask Delian. My brain works like that. I'm very binary on these things. When I'm working, I'm working.

• 47:11Harry Stebbings?

  You know, I heard this brilliant statement the other day and it's vulnerability is sharing something that you're scared to admit in spite of the consequences, in spite of them. What do you think you're kind of scared to admit in spite of the consequences today?

• 47:24Speaker 00

  Well, I think for me, a lot of things were also like, I moved to the US coming from Italy. I graduated in law. I didn't know anything about Silicon Valley. I didn't go to Stanford, I didn't go to Harvard. We are three immigrants funding eight sleep. So in the early days, it was very challenging, right? Because I didn't know anything about that world. I didn't know anything about how the US was working. So thinking of creating a product that consumers would buy and they would also love to scale. I had a lot of question marks if I could really do that. And I think it was also in the early days, this fear of can I really scale the thing? No, okay, you can build a product and hundreds of your friends might buy it because they are just nice to you.

• 48:06Speaker 00

  And maybe you sell a thousand because it's a crowdfunding campaign. But can you really build a true business that people buy the product because want that product?

• 48:15Harry Stebbings?

  I love it, but what are you scared of today?

• 48:17Speaker 00

  Today?

• 48:18Harry Stebbings?

  Yeah.

• 48:18Speaker 00

  Do you know the story of when I had to move to China in the early days for manufacturing? Or I didn't tell you?

• 48:24Harry Stebbings?

  No, I didn't, you told me.

• 48:25Speaker 00

  So it was after the, we see demo day, right? We just raised five, six million dollars, whatever. But manufacturing was not happening. So we had all these beautiful prototypes. None of us had any experience about manufacturing. So we thought, oh, you have a prototype and now you build it at scale and we are done. But things were not happening. And so I go to Alex and I say, I have to go to China. And she says, why? And I say, because manufacturing is not happening. And she says, when do you go? I'm gonna go tomorrow. And she says, when do you come back? And I say, once I fix manufacturing. I came back three, four months later. And now, still today, the longest tenure employee in the company is a Chinese person that I hired during those months while I was living in China.

• 49:06Harry Stebbings?

  And she just put up with that, three to four months away?

• 49:09Speaker 00

  Yep.

• 49:09Harry Stebbings?

  How did you do that? Like, how did you make that work as a couple?

• 49:13Speaker 00

  Well, when the relationship started, she was living in Mexico and I was living in Italy for our first year. But that was by then probably five, six years before. I don't know. It's just for us, if the business requires that, you do what you have to do.

• 49:26Harry Stebbings?

  Like, one thing that I'd be nervous of, scared of if I was you is like, the ways in which you work may not be transferable to having a child, going to China for three to four months. You can do it. You're a lovely human and I really appreciate our friendship. I don't think that's the type of dad you want to be.

• 49:41Speaker 00

  I think we would figure it out. I think we would brainstorm. That is how it works at our house, right? We would brainstorm and if I have to come back for a weekend and go back, I do whatever it takes. I go hardcore, whatever it takes. And then I try to do it in a smart way for whatever is possible.

• 49:58Harry Stebbings?

  We said before about the travels. You can travel anywhere to any hotel. What is the favorite hotel in the best place and why?

• 50:06Speaker 00

  I love Maldives.

• 50:07Harry Stebbings?

  Do you not find it boring?

• 50:09Speaker 00

  So here we have another problem, which we call, Alexandra and I, we call it the scene. And we say, we have the scene. And so I never took a vacation since when I sleep started. We didn't even have a honeymoon because we set the date of our wedding to be exactly one week after the end of the crowdfunding campaign. And so I get bored in any place for longer than, we calculate that longer than two nights in a place, I start feeling like I'm bored. Let's move to the next big thing.

• 50:39Harry Stebbings?

  So what do you do in the Maldives?

• 50:40Speaker 00

  I was literally there for a weekend because I had to be in the Middle East for work. So we just.

• 50:44Harry Stebbings?

  So you'll do a weekend in the Maldives?

• 50:47Speaker 00

  Yeah, because I, we had to go to Middle East for work and Friday night. But then what happened actually is that the guy who was leading hardware, he calls me that Friday night at 2:00 AM and he's saying he's leaving. And so I spent the whole weekend trying to save him because we wanted to save him. And I saved him, but I spent, not the whole time. I had dinner and I went snorkeling once during the weekend, but dealing with the guy, but then we retained him. So.

• 51:13Harry Stebbings?

  How did you save him?

• 51:15Speaker 00

  Because of our culture. The company was paying him way more, giving him RSUs, so liquid stocks, plus paying him probably three X more. But he loves so much what we do, how we work and what we want to build that at the end decided to stay. But he literally decide five minutes before going in the conference room to tell his team. So it was out, out, out, out, out, out. And then comes to me five minutes, I was in San Francisco, his business in San Francisco, five minutes before going into the conference room to tell his team he's leaving. He says, I thought about that. Can you do this for me in terms of offer? And we say, yeah, I'll do it. And then he stayed.

• 51:52Harry Stebbings?

  Can you advise me? I'm a founder of an early-ish stage company today. My talent is getting poached by hot companies, top labs. Should I pay the same as what they're paying to keep them if they're great? Or do you just have to accept that it's out of our league?

• 52:06Speaker 00

  Well, I'll tell you something slightly different. I think you cannot even compare, meaning if the people are really comparing the options between a company at a total different scale to you, they are probably the wrong people. Or it's not that they are wrong fundamentally, like in our case is this person was tired of not, there is pressure at a sleep and he does hardware. So he needs to go to China, Vietnam, travel all the time. And so it was becoming a personal choice. But he's a hardcore guy. And at the end of the day, he realized that this is what gives him energy. And so he didn't even want that life. And so sometimes it's still happening today. Sometimes people say, oh, I'm at the final stage with Entropic and Eight Sleep.

• 52:49Speaker 00

  And to me, that is a really bad red flag, not even for the salary, but it means you're confused. There is no way that these two jobs are any way similar. And I'm not talking because we are hardware versus software. It's just, man, get your shit together. Do you want to work at a very large company that has no certain standards and probably a certain profile? Or you want to work at Eight Sleep? But here I tell you another thing that we are seeing, actually, you will love this. There is another trend in Silicon Valley where there are people that have been laid off. Obviously, I don't want to generalize, but we have seen this in the data. And so what they do is they start talking to a lot of companies. And sometimes some of these, at least with us, they took one of our job offers. And then two weeks later, they switch to another company.

• 53:33Speaker 00

  And the reason is because they didn't have probably income or salary for a few months. They want to try to get a salary or income. And then they keep certain conversation open and then they might take another job.

• 53:46Harry Stebbings?

  Does that not look terrible, switching so quickly?

• 53:49Speaker 00

  Yeah, but then they don't even disclose.

• 53:50Harry Stebbings?

  Do you think the valley is too money oriented? Chamath said on X recently that, you know, it's become too transactional, it's too financial. From Chamath, that really is something. Do you agree with that?

• 54:01Speaker 00

  Yes, but with a caveat. I think people that join a startup, they should be driven and it's important that they are motivated by potential financial success. And I agree. But that success will come by now, increasing the equity value from X to 10X. That is also why to me it's so important, right? You cannot really compare us to one of these big companies that are already so big, where they are way more stable and maybe you do two, three X. At Eight Sleep, you should come to try to do hundred or a thousand X. But the team size, there are so many details that are totally different. And so we actually want people that are very driven and ambitious, but they need to be driven and ambition because of the right things.

• 54:41Harry Stebbings?

  Do you think people care to say more about upside in terms of 10, 100 X? Or actually just certainty of cash? Yes, it may be more capped, but you will get a tender next year and that will be done as they are every year.

• 54:55Speaker 00

  I think it's completely fine, but that it goes back to get your shit together and understand what you need and probably what your family needs. So another thing that I learned as a CEO is sometimes now, like we just promoted one of our best guys to VP of Engineering. And we were running a search for VP of Engineering, but he wanted the job. And what I told him is, look, we will run the search, but you have your own shot. So prove yourself. He did insanely well for three months and then we decided to go for him. But I think it was very good that we run an external search so we could see other people as well, right? I found that not the professional way to do it. But what I told him is, I'm gonna give you the job, but I don't want you to answer tonight. You go and you talk to your wife because she has seen how hard you work over the past three months. You were already working hard.

• 55:40Speaker 00

  The last three months, you went like 130%. And so here is not just you committing to this life. If I give you the job, I expect you, or I would like you that everything equal, you stay with us for the next two, three, four years. Otherwise, I'm not gonna bat on you. So go and talk to your wife. She has seen how hard you work and you guys, both of you need to commit. Because it's not just you, it's your family.

• 56:03Harry Stebbings?

  Completely agree. I call it the power of pillow talk, which is why I will always spend time at a dinner party or a drinks party, speaking to their partner, because I want them to actually know at the end of the day why I'm doing what I'm doing and how important my family is to me and what we build is together. And so when they come home and have a shit day, it's like, but I do like Mateo and I know he's a good human.

• 56:23Speaker 00

  Yeah, exactly.

• 56:24Harry Stebbings?

  Changes everything.

• 56:25Speaker 00

  And everybody has a family, right? So we need to take care of them, but they also need to be bought in.

• 56:30Harry Stebbings?

  Can I ask you, when we look at the team today, how big is the team?

• 56:33Speaker 00

  Well, only 160 people.

• 56:34Harry Stebbings?

  Wow, that's small.

• 56:36Speaker 00

  Our revenue per employees is way higher than Apple. One thing I can tell you is without disclosing our revenue, but other similar companies are probably in the thousand people at our revenue stage. Our output is 5X what is average in Silicon Valley.

• 56:51Harry Stebbings?

  Can I ask you, when we look then three years out, it's a reasonable timeframe, it's not crazy out, but it's a decent, how many people will you be then?

• 56:58Speaker 00

  Two fifty people making a billion.

• 56:59Harry Stebbings?

  Which function does not exist today that will be very important or job?

• 57:04Speaker 00

  Well, we saw a change in email, but what I think is I start thinking of in terms of teams of two. That is how I think for certain parts of the business where I think you still want two people to have redundancy and you want two work-class people overseeing that area, but that area could be really big, right? So like right now, our paid media team makes hundreds of millions and there are two people, like two, three hundred million just a group. So the way I like to keep the organization is extremely small and flat and that is how we can be 160 people instead than a thousand and similar companies are in the thousands.

• 57:38Harry Stebbings?

  So which function today or which job today will be gone in five years' time and which will be created?

• 57:45Speaker 00

  Again, I don't think anything will be gone. I think you can do what you're doing with way less people or the same people be spread more horizontally to cover more areas, right? And so maybe the AI SEO, maybe the same person oversees this other section and this other section. So you can be way leaner. Now I have an AI internal tools team that didn't exist until six months ago and are the guys building these thousands of agents for internal.

• 58:11Harry Stebbings?

  And you have a separate team for that. You don't expect horizontal groups to do that?

• 58:16Speaker 00

  No, because this team needs to be very connected to the data engineering team because the agents needs to have access to data backend, the data pipeline of everything we do. And so I don't know, the marketing agents needs to make sure there has perfect access to the revenue by country and the CAC by country. And so fine tuning that, that is the real true challenge because you want to make sure that the agents are a hundred percent correct.

• 58:39Harry Stebbings?

  Other than email marketing, what agent has had the most significant impact?

• 58:43Speaker 00

  Well, the one for paid media, right? Now we make hundreds of millions with these paid media agents. Now the other big one is in finance, particularly in all these groups is where we save a lot of headcounts compared to normal companies, right? Probably a company like ours should have, I don't know, a team of 20 people in finance, our team is four people. I just really like to keep teams small and try to see if I can 5X the output. I really have loved when I talk to investors to ask them to compare each of my teams and the quality of the output of each of my teams to other companies they have and the delta in size.

• 59:18Harry Stebbings?

  You're in thirty-five countries?

• 59:20Speaker 00

  Yep.

• 59:21Harry Stebbings?

  What's the hardest country?

• 59:22Speaker 00

  Well, China, because you don't sell on the website, so we had to reinvent everything.

• 59:26Harry Stebbings?

  Dude, I want to do a quickfire answer. I say a short statement, you give me your immediate thoughts. How many hours' sleep do we really need today?

• 59:32Speaker 00

  At least seven.

• 59:33Harry Stebbings?

  Biggest sleep tip for me?

• 59:35Speaker 00

  Consistency and amount of hours. You just nail those two things, you will be good.

• 59:40Harry Stebbings?

  Eating before bed, any advice?

• 59:42Speaker 00

  It's very personal. For certain people, it makes a difference. For others, no, and it will change as you age.

• 59:48Harry Stebbings?

  What have you changed your mind on most in general in the last year?

• 59:52Speaker 00

  Probably in health in general. I think really ninety-five percent of the value is just to be consistent and do the right things without going too crazy in terms of, I don't know, products that you can take and supplements and all that. If you just have a very balanced life in terms of eating well, training and sleeping, then the score will take care of itself.

• 1:00:12Harry Stebbings?

  What's a kooky prediction, weird prediction you have about the future that you do stand by?

• 1:00:18Speaker 00

  That kids that are being born now will never work, at least for money. Then they might do it because of their passion.

• 1:00:25Harry Stebbings?

  Can you just explain that to me?

• 1:00:27Speaker 00

  Well, I don't think if a kid is born now, by the time they are twenty years old, they will ever work. By then, I think AI will be at a point where humans don't work, they will do activities, social activities, even to help other humans.

• 1:00:41Harry Stebbings?

  What will we do then?

• 1:00:42Speaker 00

  That is what we need to discover. I also have this pyramid of life about the importance of life and to me is a pyramid. At the bottom, you have health and then you have relationship and then you have purpose. I think this is what drives happiness. So the first thing you need to nail in your life is to be healthy because if you are unhealthy, almost nothing else matters, right? If you have a cancer and you risk to die in the next two, three months, you can't be happy. Once the health is on track, you focus on relationship. Doesn't matter what kind of relationship, it could be a partner, it could be your family, it could be your friends, but you need to have a relationship of other people, right? If you are extremely rich and healthy but completely alone and nobody wants you, you can't be happy. The third is purpose and purpose is extremely important, right? So once you're healthy, once you have great relationship, you need to have a purpose of your life. You

• 1:01:27Speaker 00

  need to work towards something and it doesn't need to be financially related. It could be anything that you really enjoy, but you need to have a purpose. And I think that is the part that we need to pay attention to.

• 1:01:38Harry Stebbings?

  What would you advise someone asking whether they should go to universities today?

• 1:01:42Speaker 00

  No, a hundred percent no. It's useless. Well, if you want to have social activities, there is the social part, but I'm just talking in a very pragmatic way. If they want to do, have a career particularly in Silicon Valley as entrepreneurs, I think it's totally useless.

• 1:01:55Harry Stebbings?

  Do you believe in universal basic income?

• 1:01:58Speaker 00

  I think it will have to happen and I think probably as companies will get more efficient and probably they will need less people working for them, probably they will get taxed more to make sure that we can distribute universal income to everybody.

• 1:02:11Harry Stebbings?

  Do you think Bill Gates's suggestion was right that we should tax agent usage and token usage?

• 1:02:16Speaker 00

  The bottom line of a lot of companies will improve meaningfully over the next three, four, five, 10 years. And so I just think we will need to readjust part of that bottom line to be distributed to people so everybody can have a comfortable life.

• 1:02:30Harry Stebbings?

  Would you let your children use social media?

• 1:02:32Speaker 00

  That is a good question. I don't have an answer yet, but at some point I will have to figure it out.

• 1:02:38Harry Stebbings?

  What do you not know yet about parenting that you are wanting to know?

• 1:02:42Speaker 00

  Well, I tell you something that I'm actually trying to do that could be slightly different. So with Aitchley, we are lucky that we work with a lot of people that have been successful in sport, but it could be ballerinas, it could be chess players, or it could be even no great businessman. I'm trying to talk to all their dads and I wanted to, I want to learn from their dads what they did, what they thought it worked and didn't work and how they raised their kids to then learn how I can be a dad one day.

• 1:03:11Harry Stebbings?

  What did you learn?

• 1:03:12Speaker 00

  Oh, I'm starting now to do my due diligence and interviews.

• 1:03:15Harry Stebbings?

  God, that would be a fascinating exercise.

• 1:03:17Speaker 00

  It's amazing, right? Because nobody thinks about, it doesn't need to be like the dad, it could be the mom. I just want to learn what do they think they did right or wrong for their kids to be successful. And to me, successful could be even a doctor, right? I'm not talking about athletes or sports, but I want to learn from people that just went through that and I'm sure they, they made mistakes.

• 1:03:35Harry Stebbings?

  You know what my mother did? She dropped an image of like perfection or morality or goodness that most parents have. You know, you kind of view your parents as like good and always well behaved and generally, you know, she will talk to me in depth about all of her fuck-ups and the lessons that she learned, things that you really wouldn't talk to your child about. But in the depths of mistakes, you have lessons and how do I learn from her fuck-ups? Do you know what I mean?

• 1:04:02Speaker 00

  Yep.

• 1:04:02Harry Stebbings?

  But most would be like, no, that was a dark episode of my life that I'm not going back to. That I really appreciate in her.

• 1:04:08Speaker 00

  Yeah. You made me think of this thing. I don't remember the exact words, but I think there is Tony Robbins saying that a lot of people that are very driven, they are always trying to please someone since when they were kids and I think it's one of their parents. He says, you're always trying to please one of your parents or maybe, you know, it might be slightly different based on childhood. So that is another thing, particularly when I hire chief of staffs, I always make them these questions and I say, you don't have to answer to me, but if you feel comfortable, think about it.

• 1:04:35Harry Stebbings?

  Do you want to hear something even more specific that everyone gets angry at me for, but honestly, I don't really care anymore? It's actually much more specific than that and I've spent a huge amount of time studying it.

• 1:04:44Speaker 00

  Oh, really?

• 1:04:44Harry Stebbings?

  Which is actually most often it is boys and it is boys' relationships with their fathers and it is a broken relationship with their father where they're trying to prove to them that they can be something, they're worthy and that is how it most often manifests. Very rare is it and it's with mother.

• 1:05:00Speaker 00

  Yeah, it makes sense.

• 1:05:01Harry Stebbings?

  Really interesting.

• 1:05:02Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:05:03Harry Stebbings?

  Do you have a relationship with your father?

• 1:05:04Speaker 00

  Yeah, he died, but I had a, I had a relationship, but I still think he set the bar and part of what drives me is also probably if I had to guess, something that, you know, almost to meet the bar, but I don't know.

• 1:05:16Harry Stebbings?

  Did ECA sleep become successful?

• 1:05:18Speaker 00

  No. It's funny because if you go back to when my dad died, I was still a lawyer in Milan. So he wouldn't know, I live in the US, he wouldn't know I'm in Silicon Valley, he wouldn't know I'm an entrepreneur, he wouldn't know I'm married to a Mexican woman. Like, it's funny because if you had to cut off on that date, my life would be so different from what happened after that. I'm the same person, but in two different worlds.

• 1:05:43Harry Stebbings?

  I'm sure he'd be so proud.

• 1:05:44Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah. The early days was hard because when I started becoming an entrepreneur, my mom didn't want because my mom was a teacher in high school that, you know, in Italy you make like probably a thousand euros, something like that, fifteen hundred. And so she didn't have any means if I would fail as an entrepreneur. But I was doing well at the law firm and so I knew that probably my boss would take me back if I would fail as an entrepreneur at Alain Overeem. And so I took the risk, but I had the nightmares for many years after that, that I had to go back. To the law firm.

• 1:06:19Harry Stebbings?

  What advice would you have to a young person in their career on taking risk? I was a law student too, by the way.

• 1:06:27Speaker 00

  Oh, really? I didn't know that.

• 1:06:28Harry Stebbings?

  Because I was told that that was a secure life. We didn't have that much money either. And it's like, you know that you'll do okay as a lawyer.

• 1:06:34Speaker 00

  Exactly.

• 1:06:35Harry Stebbings?

  What would you advise them?

• 1:06:37Speaker 00

  So we talk about this with Alex, with my wife, a lot because we imagine this moment where I'm working. So I come from this city called Ferrara. Ferrara is a hundred fifty thousand people city in the middle of Italy with a castle in the middle. And there are the walls from sixteen hundred ish all around. And so now sometimes we joke about, you know, when she comes to Ferrara and we go see my mom. She says, how the hell did you go from this city to the US and Silicon Valley AI and everything you do? And so we joke about if you were meeting a kid now on the street and he would ask you how to get where you got, what would you tell them? And the funny thing is, I thought about this a lot, but I don't have an answer. I don't know. I just kept moving things. I saw opportunity. I went for the opportunity.

• 1:07:22Speaker 00

  I fell here, but that opportunity unlocked that other opportunity on this connection. And so it's impossible to explain how you go from. I didn't even speak English until when I was twenty four. I almost knew nothing about computers until then. And then after I graduated, I saved enough money with my first tiny startup, college startup in Italy. And then my dad took a loan to send me to San Diego to study English. And then with that loan, I was able, because I graduated with honor, to get into the big law firms. But even then, everything changed. And I'll tell you this story because my mom one day brought back home. I was around twenty, twenty one, right? No, I was twenty. It was my first year of college and Italy was four years.

• 1:08:07Speaker 00

  And I was not a great student. I hated school. I was terrible. And so I started university with just now mid-level grades. But I didn't like the idea of becoming a lawyer, just a traditional lawyer in this small town doing tiny things. I wanted something international. And she brings this magazine that was coming with this journal called Sole Ventiquattro, which is the Italian Wall Street Journal, right? And this magazine was talking about these big law firms that they were doing these international transactions, doing IPOs and securities. So I started learning about these law firms and I discovered that the only way you can get in are two conditions. You need to speak English and you need to graduate with magna cum laude.

• 1:08:49Speaker 00

  And then in my typical fashion, I say, okay, if those are the two conditions, I'll get it done. And so in Italy, the scores when you go to college are from eighteen to thirty. I was averaging twenty three. From that moment on, it was thirty with magna cum laude almost every single exam. I graduated magna cum laude. We take the loan. I go to the bank with my dad, they give him the loan. I go to San Diego, learn English, and then I get into fresh fields. Then I'll and then I become an entrepreneur.

• 1:09:16Harry Stebbings?

  But why? I can, I'll tell you, we used to go to Chelsea Football Club every week and we didn't have that much money. Sat in regular seats that weren't very good. This sounds really descriptive and weird. I hated the smell of beer and it was horribly like aggressive in football stadiums back in two thousand. You could never pee at halftime because there were too many men trying to get in and I was five, six, seven, eight. And then one day, a friend of mine who was very rich took me to their like box or corporate. And it was beautiful. It didn't stink of beer. It wasn't aggressive and horrible. You could pee at halftime and don't laugh. Like my eyes were open to like, oh my God, I hated it before and life was so much better with money.

• 1:09:55Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:09:56Harry Stebbings?

  And it gave me drive.

• 1:09:58Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:09:58Harry Stebbings?

  Where do you pin yours to?

• 1:10:00Speaker 00

  Well, I think I always had that drive because I was doing a lot of sports before, right? So when I was a teenager, I was playing tennis competitively.

• 1:10:07Harry Stebbings?

  But you've got to change your life to go from twenty three to thirty and to get magna cum laude and speak English and go to San Diego. Why?

• 1:10:16Speaker 00

  I don't know. It just clicked. So and it's funny because at least in terms of anything school related, I never had that. But then I'm the type of guy that when I have a goal, then you don't stop me. Like I become a beast or like I will outwork you, like you can't stop me. And something clicked and that is what happened back then. Then the why, I don't know. I just think I didn't want to work for the tiny two people law firm of my dad doing things in Ferrara.

• 1:10:43Harry Stebbings?

  Is that your greatest weakness? Because I too am like you, but that's why I'm having a hip operation at thirty. My shoulder is fucked and my knee is unreparable. I can't run anymore because I ran hundred mile races so often that my body is just so broken. I'm a beast. I'm a broken beast.

• 1:11:01Speaker 00

  It's the scene, is what I was telling you before. I have a scene. I can't stop. If you can put me on a boat in Sardinia, I'll, I like so much what I do that then the downside is I don't stop. And I get bored after a few days. And so that is why we call it the scene. Can't relax, right?

• 1:11:18Harry Stebbings?

  Do you ever want to? Like one thing for me is I lie in bed at night and actually like my mind races. And it's kind of sometimes very lonely alone in my head at night.

• 1:11:27Speaker 00

  Now the people I admire the most, not outside business, not like people that you want to emulate, are really people that you might find in any place in the world, but call it in Italy because I'm Italian, that are on at the beach, that they're just walking. Actually, there is this guy. We were having dinner like last week, my wife and I. And we see this gentleman and he's having dinner in a pretty nice restaurant. We were in Milan for work and he's having dinner in this nice restaurant. And he's there drinking his glass of wine. I don't drink alcohol. And he's eating, I don't remember, but a beautiful meal. And he's there perfectly dressed without the phone, alone, just thinking. And obviously I know nothing about the guy. I know nothing.

• 1:12:09Speaker 00

  But I just say, I admire the guy so much that he was there treating himself without looking at the phone, just thinking and enjoying his meal in this apparently to me peace. That is something I admire from people because I struggle with that.

• 1:12:25Harry Stebbings?

  Mateo, listen, I so appreciate you being so open. I love conversation. It's almost, it's nice to the second time because you're able to have a friendliness that you don't have the first. So thank you so much for being so amazing and this has been awesome.

• 1:12:37Speaker 00

  Of course. Thank you so much.

• 1:12:41Harry Stebbings?

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• 1:13:22Harry Stebbings?

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