ABC Suspends Jimmy Kimmel, Why You Should Check Out Netflix’s ‘Black Rabbit’, and ‘Alien: Earth’ Episode 7

Chris and Andy talk about ABC’s decision to indefinitely suspend Jimmy Kimmel and what it means for the media space (1:18). Then, they take a moment to remember Robert Redford and his outsized impact on film in the wake of his passing (11:58). Later, they break down the penultimate episode of ‘Alien: Earth’ and the premiere of the new Netflix miniseries, ‘Black Rabbit,’ starring Jason Bateman and Jude Law (30:50). Subscribe to the Ringer TV YouTube channel here for full episodes of ‘The Watch’ and so much more! Hosts: Chris Ryan and Andy Greenwald Producers: Kaya McMullen and Kai Grady Video Producer: Jon Jones Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Speaker 00

  I'm pro-football Hall of Famer Brian Dawkins, and I lived for a long time with something I did not know the name of: major depressive disorder. I carried sadness and anger because I thought I could handle it alone, but I couldn't. Now I want to make sure others know that that support is out there. If you're experiencing similar symptoms, talk to a healthcare professional. Visit MDDAllies.com to watch my story.

• 0:25Speaker 01

  Paid partnership with Johnson & Johnson. Brian Dawkins has not prescribed Caplyta lumateperone.

• 0:37Speaker 02

  I needed more from my antidepressant, so my doctor added Caplyta lumateperone, proven to provide greater relief from depression symptoms than an antidepressant alone, building on my progress without starting over. Caplyta is for adults with major depressive disorder when used with an antidepressant and is available by prescription only. Individual results may vary. In clinical trials, weight gain was not common.

• 0:57Speaker 01

  Elderly dementia patients have increased risk of death or stroke. Caplyta is not approved for dementia-related psychosis. Call your doctor about new or sudden mood changes, behaviors, or suicidal thoughts right away. Antidepressants may increase these risks. Report fever, confusion, stiff muscles, which may be life-threatening, or uncontrolled muscle movements, which may be permanent. High cholesterol and weight gain may occur, as can high blood sugar, which may be fatal. Monitoring is recommended. Common side effects are sleepiness, dizziness, nausea, dry mouth, feeling tired, and diarrhea. These aren't all the side effects.

• 1:24Speaker 02

  Ask your doctor about Caplyta. Learn more at Caplyta.com or call 888-252-4824.

• 1:30Speaker 03

  For adults with Crohn's disease or ulcerative colitis symptoms, every choice matters.

• 1:37Speaker 03

  Trifya offers self-injection or intravenous infusion from the start. Trifya is administered as injections under the skin or infusions through a vein every four weeks, followed by injections under the skin every four or eight weeks. If your doctor decides that you can self-inject Trifya, proper training is required. Tremfya is a prescription medicine used to treat adults with moderately to severely active Crohn's disease and adults with moderately to severely active ulcerative colitis, serious allergic reactions, increased risk of infections, or lower ability to fight them, and liver problems may occur. Before treatment, get checked for infections and tuberculosis. Tell your doctor if you have an infection, flu-like symptoms, or need

• 2:17Speaker 03

  a vaccine. Explore what's possible. Ask your doctor about Tremfya today. Call 1-800-526-7736 to learn more, or visit tremfyaradio.com.

• 2:30Speaker 04

  I need sports to have to clear the room.

• 2:33Andy Greenwald?

  Stand up and walk now.

• 2:36Chris Ryan?

  Hello and welcome to The Watch. My name is Chris Ryan. I am an editor at theringer.com. And joining me in the studio, he also remembers Mars Bar, it's Andy Greenwald.

• 2:50Andy Greenwald?

  I do. You're talking Black Rabbit.

• 2:51Chris Ryan?

  I'm talking Black Rabbit on Netflix. I'm talking Alien Earth on FX. We might discuss the legacy of the great Robert Redford.

• 2:59Andy Greenwald?

  Oh, yeah.

• 2:59Chris Ryan?

  And obviously, we have to address the Jimmy Kimmel stuff. Greenwald, welcome to the show.

• 3:04Andy Greenwald?

  Thank you. I also have some other things on my personal.

• 3:06Chris Ryan?

  Oh, I got some other things on my docket, too.

• 3:08Andy Greenwald?

  I have a shadow docket. Like all the great thought leaders in America.

• 3:12Chris Ryan?

  Like Antonin Scalia?

• 3:13Andy Greenwald?

  Und signed, but opinions are strong.

• 3:16Chris Ryan?

  Oh, man. Andy, great to see you. Thursday. We're recording this at 10:57. You can email us at [email protected]. You can follow us at thewatchpod on Instagram. And you can watch us on YouTube, bringer-tv, or on Spotify, where we hope you listen to this podcast.

• 3:34Andy Greenwald?

  You can watch us last night, walking out of Dodger Stadium with our tails between our legs. Couple losers.

• 3:39Chris Ryan?

  Yeah, before it even ended. We gave up. We quit.

• 3:42Andy Greenwald?

  Well.

• 3:42Chris Ryan?

  We wanted to be traffic.

• 3:44Andy Greenwald?

  We saw where it was going. We won the series. It's all right.

• 3:47Chris Ryan?

  Uh, Greenwald, great to see you. I mentioned that it was 10:57 because obviously, the Jimmy Kimmel story is quickly evolving, and I just wanted to kind of timestamp our reactions and also like the reporting that's come out about it, which is a little... On one hand, it's incredibly clear what happened. And on the other hand, it's a little murky because as of this recording, Bob Iger and there's been an ABC statement, but there has not been a corporate Disney statement. Bob Iger has not done an interview about this, to my knowledge. So I'll just sort of set the scene by reading from the Wall Street Journal.

• 4:22Andy Greenwald?

  What that keeps you right in your morning routine.

• 4:24Chris Ryan?

  I have a sub. Must be nice.

• 4:26Andy Greenwald?

  Truly.

• 4:27Chris Ryan?

  Disney said it pulled Jimmy Kimmel's show off ABC in the wake of remarks the late night host made about the killing of conservative activist Charlie Kirk. Jimmy Kimmel Live will be preempted indefinitely, an ABC spokesman said on Wednesday. The suspension began with Wednesday's planned broadcast. While no return date had been set, Disney was monitoring the situation and saw a path to the show potentially returning in the next several days, according to a person familiar with the situation.

• 4:55Andy Greenwald?

  Corporate bravery at its finest.

• 4:56Chris Ryan?

  Federal Communications Commission Chairman Brendan Carr said in an interview on CNBC Thursday that Kimmel appeared to directly mislead the American public, quote unquote, about Kirk's murder. During an interview with conservative political podcaster Benny Johnson on Wednesday, Carr suggested that the FCC could take action against the broadcast licenses of ABC-owned stations. Owners of some ABC TV stations, including large broadcasters Next Star Media Group and Sinclair, told the network they were dropping the show.

• 5:30Andy Greenwald?

  So there's so much good faith in all this. It's almost hard to parse.

• 5:34Chris Ryan?

  Yeah. So how should we talk about this? Because obviously, there's like a personal reaction. There is also like the lens through which we usually talk about things, which is within the realm of like TV, movies, the entertainment industry, the culture industry.

• 5:50Andy Greenwald?

  By the way, what has the Austin stand-up community have to say about this? Because I believe they-

• 5:53Chris Ryan?

  That's my shadow docket.

• 5:55Andy Greenwald?

  I know. I believe en masse, they voted against cancel culture. And I just am dying to hear how they feel about this.

• 6:01Chris Ryan?

  Next time I go to the mothership, I'll let you know. I have not actually been in the mothership. I don't even want to get into this.

• 6:07Andy Greenwald?

  Okay. I'm just noting with interest the sweatshirt color you're wearing today. That's all. That's all I'm saying.

• 6:12Chris Ryan?

  Shout out to Touche Amore. That's the sweatshirt I'm wearing. Shout out to Jeremy.

• 6:16Andy Greenwald?

  Make America Touche again.

• 6:18Chris Ryan?

  Anyway, I thought we could start with the conversation about this as a TV story. Which may seem far down the list of the sort of most important things happening.

• 6:30Andy Greenwald?

  Well, I mean, there's, there's, I don't know if it is just a TV story, to be honest with you.

• 6:35Chris Ryan?

  I don't think it is.

• 6:36Andy Greenwald?

  They're like Jimmy Kimmel, who is the consummate broadcaster. Like, he's very, very, very good at this. He's good at hosting the Oscars. He's good at hosting his own show. He is been, how long has that show been on? 24 years, I believe?

• 6:51Chris Ryan?

  Yeah, Bill moved out here to do it.

• 6:53Andy Greenwald?

  So in a way, thank you, Jimmy, for the trickle-down effect. That does work, by the way, trickle-down economics. You know, I think we both have had personal interactions with him before, and he's a lovely guy in person.

• 7:06Chris Ryan?

  Tom Thibault, yes, we have connections to the show.

• 7:08Andy Greenwald?

  On a personal and professional level, I think this absolutely sucks. It is deeply unfair, if not borderline corrupt. And it is a tragedy anytime people lose their jobs, whether it's for one day, five days, or forever. And the show, being a bedrock of LA, has employed hundreds of people for a very long time.

• 7:28Chris Ryan?

  And it's worth mentioning, still records its nightly show, or its weeknight nightly show, in the center of Hollywood.

• 7:35Andy Greenwald?

  I think that there is a absolute, you know, bad faith, insane, snowflake political story to be, to be told here. That's not generally where we get to go with our, with our coverage, usually just only in sort of, you know, little sour asides to each other at the beginning or end.

• 7:55Andy Greenwald?

  So I think for me, you know, the, the bigger story isn't just the fast-forward button being hit on what was an inevitable degradation of late night as we have known it for our whole lives. That's sort of the framing of the Colbert story, even though I think in many ways they are part of the same story. As much as that 11:30 hour with, with light politics, monologue, celebrity guests promoting movies, and some comedic bits that now get chopped up and enjoyed on YouTube the next day, as much as that's part of the framework of our day, even though you and I don't really stay up that late anymore, let alone watch these shows, it, it does feel very significant to see them being taken off the air, being canceled, being overlooked, being piled upon and, you know, removed from our, our lives.

• 8:39Andy Greenwald?

  Like, that is very intense and surprising, particularly, I mean, even though... I think before any of these cancellations and suspensions started, I think that if we had a conversation about the future of late night, I don't think we would have said it's white men in their 50s talking into microphones at 11:30. It's white men in their 50s talking into microphones at 10:47 in the morning. Right? God intended it. Anyway, so that's the TV part of it, right? I think the more deeply, deeply chilling aspect of the story for us today and going forward is a larger story about the chilling and corrupting effects of media consolidation.

• 9:19Chris Ryan?

  Yes.

• 9:20Andy Greenwald?

  And what happens when everything is owned by two to nine billionaires who want to accrue more billions and in order to extract money from their properties, not only need to, not only make, you know, very often callous decisions about staffing, about hiring, about employment, also must apparently bend the knee to whomever in Washington controls their opportunities to expand their already enormous bottom line, which is really the story here, far beyond the, you know, salacious truth, social chatter about like standing up for the hurt feelings or a fallen friend.

• 10:00Chris Ryan?

  This is going to be cast as a free speech story. I suppose it should be. I think that I've probably reached the end of the road doing what about back and forth or reading what about back and forth, you know, online about cancel culture or suppression of information and stuff like that. And you can just, we just are going back and back and back. I think it's worth noting that Nextar, who is one of the, one of the network of affiliates that dropped Jimmy this week, is also looking to buy another collection of affiliate stations and do a merger. And I think that there is a feeling right now that I would say is pretty

• 10:43Chris Ryan?

  accurate, that you need to have the tacit endorsement or explicit endorsement of the federal government to pull off a merger like that. And I'm not saying that it's quid pro quo, but I'm not not saying that, I guess. You know, I mean, I don't, it's hard to look at the way that society is functioning right now and think of it as anything other than

• 11:07Chris Ryan?

  You know.

• 11:08Andy Greenwald?

  Kleptocracy?

• 11:08Chris Ryan?

  Yeah, kleptocracy and deeply corrupt.

• 11:12Andy Greenwald?

  Yeah, like, look, there's a hotter spotlight at the moment because of the rashness of these actions and also, again, the supremely bad faith in which all of this has been carried out. And this is what happens when the person who is actually pulling the strings is a sensitive snowflake, right? And can't have feelings hurt. And thus, everyone is quick to make it about that. The deeper story that will far outlive this presidency is the consolidation of media in the hands of a few billionaires. That's ongoing no matter what. Now, the flames might not reach as high, because, for example, we're talking about this under the, you know, a few days on from word getting out that David Ellison, fresh off his takeover of Paramount,

• 11:55Andy Greenwald?

  would like to also add Warner Brothers, Warner Media to his portfolio, thus making Paramount plus HBO with Showtime, or whatever it might be. That would be a story regardless of who was in the White House. And I haven't seen much evidence of either party, frankly, stopping things like that from happening, or understanding the trickle down effects of that. Now, in the short term, what could happen if he tries to do it in the next few months? Well, that might be it for South Park, right? Like, any more times you give them, you give a little bit, they're gonna take more. That's actually, as we learn in Black Rabbit, that's how it works when you're in debt to someone.

• 12:33Chris Ryan?

  Juice is running.

• 12:34Andy Greenwald?

  You know?

• 12:35Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 12:36Andy Greenwald?

  But the deeper story about who controls the stories that we get to tell, or the entertainment that we get to enjoy, it's very, very dark. It's very, very disturbing.

• 12:46Chris Ryan?

  Yeah. I say watch this space, not because I don't want to talk about this anymore, but I think that this is just chapter five in a long, long book. And, you know, you talked about David Ellison's takeover of Paramount, his rumored attempts or interest in buying Warner Brothers Discovery. His father, Larry Ellison, is aiming to take a large stake in the sale of TikTok.

• 13:12Andy Greenwald?

  Oh, yes, that's convenient.

• 13:13Chris Ryan?

  You know, I mean, this is just... This is, this is like a-

• 13:16Andy Greenwald?

  I mean, this is what happened when the Soviet Union collapsed, right? Like, everybody got a taste.

• 13:20Chris Ryan?

  Uh huh.

• 13:21Andy Greenwald?

  And, um, but in defense of that country, things worked out great for them.

• 13:25Chris Ryan?

  They got Chelsea Football Club, you know?

• 13:27Andy Greenwald?

  We-

• 13:29Chris Ryan?

  Soccer appreciators, yeah.

• 13:30Andy Greenwald?

  Ball knowers.

• 13:31Chris Ryan?

  Uh, yeah.

• 13:33Andy Greenwald?

  It, it's, it's just, this is obviously a dark and challenging and tumultuous time.

• 13:39Andy Greenwald?

  It's, feels, it feels particularly scary, I think, even when the most cynical, oh, but guardrails people among us realize that, um, you know, I, I think there was a thought that like, well, everything will keep chugging along because long as, because Wall Street really rules the roost, right? And if anything runs afoul of profits or shareholder value, then this whole misbegotten project will collapse.

• 14:06Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 14:07Andy Greenwald?

  I don't know if that's the case because the people who control Wall Street seem pretty psyched with what they're able to do now.

• 14:14Chris Ryan?

  Yes.

• 14:15Andy Greenwald?

  And, uh, turns out that might not have been the best guardrail.

• 14:18Chris Ryan?

  Uh, yeah.

• 14:19Andy Greenwald?

  But, you know, at least, at least Tim Cook had to sit there and watch the pit win. You know what I mean? We gotta take the victories where we can.

• 14:27Chris Ryan?

  Um, one of the major stories that came out this week that kind of got blown off the front pages or the, the main, main feeds of, of people out there is-

• 14:36Andy Greenwald?

  Daredevil season three renewal?

• 14:37Chris Ryan?

  Uh, Robert Redford passed away.

• 14:39Andy Greenwald?

  I'm sorry.

• 14:40Chris Ryan?

  Um, I think that the-

• 14:42Andy Greenwald?

  This podcast could contain multitudes.

• 14:43Chris Ryan?

  The Ringer Podcast Network will probably be diving deep into Robert Redford's life or legacy. I just wanted to mention it and also mention my deep affection for the movies that he made and also a lot of what he stood for.

• 14:59Andy Greenwald?

  Yeah.

• 14:59Chris Ryan?

  Uh, and his values. It's kind of strange, you know, he's, uh, he was seven years older than my mom and I think that generation of people, uh, has come in for a lot of criticism recently for staying in their homes, you know, and all that, but I do have to say that like, there, there, I, I'm starting to get a little bit more, more romantic about some of the values that like- People like Redford stood for.

• 15:27Andy Greenwald?

  Sure.

• 15:28Chris Ryan?

  Obviously, he was just a giant movie star, but tried to use a lot of his fame and the capital accrued from that, I think, to help other people. Some of the memorials about him, like you reposted Sterling Harjo's anecdote about him. I thought that was incredible. I know that, like, I read this old interview with Redford, where he's just talking about, like, working on the Fruitvale Station script with Ryan Coogler and how, like, inspiring it is to, like, you know, be a part of the early days of someone's career.

• 16:03Andy Greenwald?

  Yeah.

• 16:03Chris Ryan?

  And I think he felt a real sense of responsibility for the continuation of the art form of filmmaking.

• 16:11Andy Greenwald?

  Yeah.

• 16:11Chris Ryan?

  As much as the business of filmmaking. And, you know, Sundance is a really interesting story over the course of its lifespan. But I think that it's pretty easy to locate Redford as a really positive force in American culture over the course of his life and Told Me Missed.

• 16:29Andy Greenwald?

  I love that idea of the art form of filmmaking as more than where you hang the lights and where you point the cameras.

• 16:37Chris Ryan?

  Sure.

• 16:37Andy Greenwald?

  Because he was from the West Coast, but a lot of his peers and contemporaries came up in, like, the Actors Studio and, you know, a sort of collectivist theater movement in New York that explained certain ways on how you build character, how you are present in the scene, how you work with others. The biggest takeaway from that would be the sense of community, right? That creativity does not come necessarily from an actor sitting alone, running a monologue in a trailer, or, you know, a screenwriter being like, "But wait, when do we reveal what Thunderbolts really means?" More that, like, you build things together collectively from the ground up. And I think that aspect of Sundance has been almost overlooked as it became famous for the channel, the film festival, the aesthetic.

• 17:19Andy Greenwald?

  The idea that, year after year, over the last few decades, he was just there, right? Greeting people who came in with scripts, with projects, giving support, writing little notes, being like, "I enjoyed this film."

• 17:31Chris Ryan?

  Right.

• 17:32Andy Greenwald?

  Actually showing up and not just, like, dropping a bag of cash and building a little amphitheater and walking away.

• 17:37Chris Ryan?

  Right.

• 17:38Andy Greenwald?

  That this was the work of the last few years. In addition to being... Like for, I think even for us, right? Like, we grew up slightly, we, we became movie aware slightly past his like seventies golden run.

• 17:50Chris Ryan?

  Yeah, like to me, like the first Robert Redford movie is like The Natural.

• 17:53Andy Greenwald?

  That's the first movie I saw too, but I, I will never forget the way my mom talked about Robert Redford, walking into the movie, about like, my takeaway was like, this is what a man should be, and I have failed. However, one day, I too will. No, but like, both in terms of like his looks, his charisma, but also the way a movie hung on his shoulders, like a well-fitting suit.

• 18:19Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 18:20Andy Greenwald?

  Um, it was very, very, very memorable. And the fact that he was good for so many decades, like, I, I made a Thunderbolts joke, but he was really good in Captain America. He was

• 18:31Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 18:31Andy Greenwald?

  having a fun time being in Endgame even, just a few years ago, reprising the role and reprising that scene. Um, do you have a, like Mount Rushmore of Redford?

• 18:42Chris Ryan?

  Yeah, they're not that complicated. It's three days of the Condor, the Sting, um, All the President's Men. Uh, of a more recent one, I would say Spy Game.

• 18:52Andy Greenwald?

  Underrated.

• 18:53Chris Ryan?

  But, you know, I would highly recommend, if you haven't, you're listening to this and you've never checked this book out, Adventures in the Screen Trade, which is William Goldman's really dazzling, candid, witty tour through some of his, he's a famous screenwriter, um, like, the late William Goldman, but he wrote about like his, sort of his career in getting into movies and writing scripts and working with actors and, and all of his sort of observations about that. He had some mixed experiences with Robert Redford.

• 19:22Andy Greenwald?

  With Bob?

• 19:23Chris Ryan?

  Yeah, but writes very eloquently about Redford's participation in a project made it from an idea to a movie.

• 19:31Andy Greenwald?

  Yeah.

• 19:32Chris Ryan?

  And when you look at Redford's career, especially

• 19:36Chris Ryan?

  Especially the 70s, but even I think to some extent, some of the stuff he did in the 80s and some of the things he did as a director. That's a guy who used his star power to make really interesting stuff.

• 19:48Andy Greenwald?

  Yeah.

• 19:48Chris Ryan?

  And we could use more, more people like that.

• 19:51Andy Greenwald?

  Can I just give a personal shout out to two? For me, it's, it's The Hot Rock.

• 19:55Chris Ryan?

  Mm hmm.

• 19:55Andy Greenwald?

  Which is just an incredible 70s caper based on a Donald Westlake novel, him, George Segal. Like at his most like.

• 20:03Chris Ryan?

  Swagged out.

• 20:03Andy Greenwald?

  Swagged out and charming. Um, and maybe my favorite film of all time is Sneakers, which.

• 20:09Chris Ryan?

  Is that really your favorite film of all time?

• 20:10Andy Greenwald?

  No, I'm just saying that. Like it's in my, it is in my personal canon. It is in my top 10 of like movies that I just love on a molecular level. It makes me happy. I want more movies, more TV shows, more art to feel like that movie. Um, I feel like it's sleepy appreciated, but not necessarily as celebrated.

• 20:28Chris Ryan?

  I think there's a sneakers high of out there, but there should be bigger.

• 20:31Andy Greenwald?

  There should be more movies like that. It's about a ragtag group of like proto hackers, like kind of before hacking was hacking, like people who are hired.

• 20:39Chris Ryan?

  And Redford plays like a Weather Underground kind of guy who has now tried to come up with a new identity and is a computer security specialist.

• 20:47Andy Greenwald?

  He has a ragtag group with featuring Sidney Poitier, River Phoenix, Dan Aykroyd, David Strathairn. And it's like they get hired to test the security of your company. And then they get mixed up with the NSA that might not be the NSA. And turns out there are too many secrets.

• 21:00Chris Ryan?

  Mm hmm.

• 21:01Andy Greenwald?

  Not to spoil it, but like watching him and Poitier in that movie.

• 21:05Chris Ryan?

  It's awesome. Awesome. Uh, yeah, there will probably be a lot of really cool stuff, hopefully over the next couple of weeks on the, on the pod network about Redford.

• 21:14Andy Greenwald?

  And I didn't see this because I didn't stick with the show, but apparently he did make a cameo last season on Dark Winds. The, the, um, the very good, we just didn't stick with it. I think Native American cop show that he was a producer on. Um, before we turn to our TV business of the day, can I just make one, just like one procedural, like how we run, how we run things comment?

• 21:34Chris Ryan?

  Yes.

• 21:34Andy Greenwald?

  Kai is ready. Kai, Kai's mic is on, so. We love doing this podcast and we, I think we've adapted well towards the new reality of vertical video and, you know, and, and really having to like put our face where our mouth is in terms of our opinions and our takes.

• 21:51Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 21:51Andy Greenwald?

  One thing that I definitely did not understand fully going in was how much our lives and our online careers are in the hands of Kaya McMullen over here. We watched football together this weekend, Chris, and a few times we made references to poor quarterbacks throwing hospital balls across the middle of the field where the receivers is like, I guess I gotta go potentially.

• 22:12Chris Ryan?

  I just really like saying hospital ball.

• 22:14Andy Greenwald?

  I do too.

• 22:14Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 22:15Andy Greenwald?

  I have noticed a trend that anytime I raise my voice slightly and perhaps I'm, you know, critical in ways that I have been in the past on the podcast, old Kaya Scissorhands over here is ready, ready to just, just, just hang me out to dry on a slant route against Fred Warner. So.

• 22:32Chris Ryan?

  I have to say, the thing that she doesn't do.

• 22:34Andy Greenwald?

  Yeah.

• 22:34Chris Ryan?

  Is kill you with the caption. Cause she could do.

• 22:37Andy Greenwald?

  That's true.

• 22:38Chris Ryan?

  Another all caps unhinged.

• 22:40Andy Greenwald?

  That's true.

• 22:40Chris Ryan?

  Read.

• 22:41Andy Greenwald?

  So are you saying?

• 22:42Chris Ryan?

  From Andy Greimold about his arch nemesis Nate Bargatze.

• 22:47Andy Greenwald?

  I, I note with interest that the first 15 seconds of my monologue in which I said, I love Nate Bargatze and watch all of his comedy specials regularly. Boring. This box is fueled by hatred and vitriol.

• 23:02Speaker 07

  How am I supposed to know that Nate Bargatze has stans like that?

• 23:05Andy Greenwald?

  Now, I don't know what he has because I have not, nor will I for my own well-being.

• 23:10Chris Ryan?

  What if it's?

• 23:11Andy Greenwald?

  Look at the 600 comments.

• 23:12Chris Ryan?

  600 people being like, I walk into the fire with you, brother. You've just said what I've always felt.

• 23:17Andy Greenwald?

  It's just not the way it works. So yesterday, so since we had a really, I thought we had a good podcast on Monday.

• 23:22Chris Ryan?

  Ah.

• 23:23Andy Greenwald?

  We had a fun bit where you were like, what would happen if we went into Lefty's Tap Room?

• 23:27Chris Ryan?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 23:28Andy Greenwald?

  The, the hangout, the watering hole of the Dark Hearts Motorcycle Gang. Fun back and forth. I did, I did my character where I'm a bit of a priz.

• 23:38Andy Greenwald?

  And I was like, let's have some rice lagers. And everybody laughed. Eighteen point four thousand views respectable, right? I say that this was a disaster of an award show. We are approaching six hundred thousand views. The only clip ever to come close is the five seconds where I was like, honestly, Oasis wasn't really good of a live band. And then the Lager Lads found that.

• 24:01Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 24:02Andy Greenwald?

  So I'm just saying, just.

• 24:03Speaker 07

  People like conflict. They like, I don't think people, most people are not on social media to like, I don't know.

• 24:10Chris Ryan?

  To agree?

• 24:11Speaker 07

  To agree, yeah.

• 24:11Andy Greenwald?

  It's true. It's just interesting. I'm learning something that I think um most people listening probably know. But I would say the body politic of America has learned too late, which is that there is just different audiences out there. And, you know, we had a really good podcast. I thought we made some good comments and some insights on task. Everything that I've monitored, my sources in the Five Eyes community, crickets. Like, I haven't seen anyone be like, oh, it was really thoughtful.

• 24:36Chris Ryan?

  But how would they communicate that to you?

• 24:37Andy Greenwald?

  Well, you get emails. I don't know. All I know is that I said one thing, which I stand by, because that award show sucked. Over half a million people.

• 24:45Chris Ryan?

  I feel, listen, see?

• 24:47Andy Greenwald?

  She's threatening me.

• 24:47Speaker 07

  There is a bit of internet parlance where it's something breaks containment. And basically it was.

• 24:54Andy Greenwald?

  By the way, that should also be alien Earth parlance, but go on.

• 24:57Chris Ryan?

  They don't know, but they don't know who you are. They're just like, who's this asshole talking about my favorite comedian?

• 25:02Andy Greenwald?

  That's fair.

• 25:02Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 25:03Andy Greenwald?

  A fellow fan.

• 25:05Chris Ryan?

  Do you see how, have you noticed how I'm kind of like uh the dude in World War One trench warfare who's like, we'll take this hill. And then like you go over the, you go over the top. And I'm like, oh, hurt my hamstring.

• 25:19Andy Greenwald?

  Have I noticed?

• 25:20Chris Ryan?

  It's never me who's doing the rants. I got got with James Cameron, though.

• 25:24Andy Greenwald?

  Yeah, but that was, I don't know, that that felt, it felt like you had the power of truth behind you.

• 25:29Chris Ryan?

  There was an initial layer of hell, yeah, brother, I walk with you anywhere CR. And then it was, and then it turned into like, wait, who is this asshole? He hasn't even seen the movies.

• 25:39Andy Greenwald?

  Right.

• 25:39Chris Ryan?

  So I get it, man.

• 25:41Andy Greenwald?

  Like, I just feel like what's lost, I just feel like we've lost some nuance maybe in this country.

• 25:45Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 25:45Andy Greenwald?

  Is that possible? Is that crazy? Kyle, don't clip that, you know, don't get me in trouble.

• 25:50Chris Ryan?

  She's just clipping you calling his a kleptocracy.

• 25:54Andy Greenwald?

  And then me being like huh, you think?

• 25:56Speaker 07

  I'm just gonna stitch together a few of your Kimmel stuff and then I think we'll be good for a couple of weeks.

• 26:02Andy Greenwald?

  I just, I'll plan the wedding for free now, like whatever. We work for her.

• 26:09Chris Ryan?

  Um, speaking of weddings.

• 26:12Chris Ryan?

  Did you have anything else non-show related that you wanted to discuss on your shadow docket?

• 26:16Speaker 08

  No.

• 26:16Andy Greenwald?

  Okay, move on.

• 26:17Chris Ryan?

  Uh, the finale of the summer I turned pretty occurred this week.

• 26:21Andy Greenwald?

  Oh, yes.

• 26:22Chris Ryan?

  Uh, I bring this up for a couple of reasons. Wedding, you know, obviously was a major element of the third season. Spoilers for the end of this, if you haven't.

• 26:29Andy Greenwald?

  Is Kaya caught up?

• 26:30Chris Ryan?

  Consumed, she hasn't, but she knows what happens.

• 26:32Andy Greenwald?

  Okay, just don't piss her off.

• 26:33Chris Ryan?

  And, uh, almost immediately after this show aired, which I have, uh, I have my thoughts about the finale. I don't really know if I want to, you know, if you need to hear them. It was, it was, I thought, well done to a point. When it is like, when there is a central relationship in a show that every single person who's watching is like consumed by. I just don't need to see Jair's pop up.

• 26:58Andy Greenwald?

  He's a cook, I heard.

• 26:59Chris Ryan?

  Yeah, he's a chef, the hottest chef in Boston.

• 27:01Andy Greenwald?

  Well, tallest, tallest dwarf, but all right. Clip that, Kaya. You're on.

• 27:09Chris Ryan?

  Um, but, you know, set in Paris. Conrad shows up.

• 27:16Chris Ryan?

  Confesses his love again to her.

• 27:18Andy Greenwald?

  What's funny is you're acting like in my household.

• 27:20Chris Ryan?

  And she Heismans him for a while.

• 27:22Andy Greenwald?

  What day did, what day did this premiere?

• 27:24Chris Ryan?

  It came out Tuesday at midnight, or so Wednesday at midnight.

• 27:27Andy Greenwald?

  Do you know when it was playing at my house?

• 27:29Chris Ryan?

  6 a.m.

• 27:29Andy Greenwald?

  6 a.m. yesterday.

• 27:30Chris Ryan?

  That is, there's two, there are two wolves here and you either stay up late.

• 27:34Andy Greenwald?

  I'm the father of both of them.

• 27:34Chris Ryan?

  Or you get up early. Uh, but the interesting part is just that they announced very quickly after the finale aired that they are going to be making a movie, uh, epilogue, I guess.

• 27:47Chris Ryan?

  This is probably good business for Amazon. I would say there's not a ton of ambiguity about how the show ended. Uh, in terms of who she chose and what state their relationship is in. If I had to guess, this will probably be more of like a fun reunion and like tying up loose ends. Then it would be like something tragic and or dramatic happens, but I could be wrong.

• 28:09Andy Greenwald?

  Do you know what the, um, the comparison ought to be, I think, for this sincerely is Downton Abbey? Because

• 28:17Chris Ryan?

  Yes.

• 28:17Andy Greenwald?

  Down Naby as a franchise, Julian Fellows as a corrector.

• 28:20Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 28:21Andy Greenwald?

  As a creator. I said creactor, which is collector slash creator.

• 28:26Chris Ryan?

  In Trump's America, we're all correctors.

• 28:33Andy Greenwald?

  He found a way to somehow keep the balloon afloat, even though.

• 28:37Chris Ryan?

  People just want to spend time with these people.

• 28:39Andy Greenwald?

  In the world. And so it seems like Jenny Han has a sense of like, we can just keep them hanging out. We can put a few more problems in front of them. Low stakes obstacles. And what did she say in the press release? Like the next chapter of their journey?

• 28:52Chris Ryan?

  There's one major life like hallmark or life moment that we need to go through with Belly. And I was like, this is when she finds out that she's been an agent for Treadstone this entire time.

• 29:01Andy Greenwald?

  Yes. I thought it was when Jer partners with his brother, Jason Bateman, who's a bit of a ne'er do well, his other brother on a restaurant in Lower Manhattan.

• 29:09Chris Ryan?

  Can I just recap a show I watched this week for you before we get to Alien and Black Rabbit?

• 29:14Andy Greenwald?

  Watched more shows.

• 29:15Chris Ryan?

  I watched a show this week and I wanted to just describe the plot and see if it's something that might interest you.

• 29:19Andy Greenwald?

  Cool.

• 29:20Chris Ryan?

  An Iranian nuclear scientist defects. A movie producer loses his star actress on the day of shooting in the biggest stunt in his film. The TV rights to the Olympic Games are put into jeopardy and an environmental disaster strikes.

• 29:35Andy Greenwald?

  Whoa.

• 29:37Chris Ryan?

  One guess. Just take a guess.

• 29:38Andy Greenwald?

  The front page of the Wall Street Journal on Tuesday.

• 29:40Chris Ryan?

  No.

• 29:41Andy Greenwald?

  Sense 8 by the Wachowski siblings.

• 29:43Chris Ryan?

  Nope.

• 29:44Andy Greenwald?

  I'm out of guesses.

• 29:45Chris Ryan?

  The morning show, season four.

• 29:46Andy Greenwald?

  Hell, yeah. I wondered if we were going to be talking about it. Good use of the shadow docket. Good job.

• 29:52Chris Ryan?

  Possibly the most expensive show I've ever seen in my life. Now, they are no longer even pretending to be like in someone's apartment. Like it's like gauzy, like matte painting windows. Like I, I, I think that they've probably consolidated some of the production of this. But there literally are no non-famous people in this show anymore. Like it's just like, if they need someone to be someone's agent, it's Will Arnett. If Marion Cotillard, who is in this show, needs a boyfriend, it's Aaron Pierre. You know?

• 30:24Andy Greenwald?

  It's so wild.

• 30:24Chris Ryan?

  Jennifer Aniston's father, it's out there, Jeremy Irons. It's fucking crazy, dude.

• 30:31Andy Greenwald?

  That's so, that is just.

• 30:33Chris Ryan?

  Every time you check your phone.

• 30:35Andy Greenwald?

  Yeah.

• 30:36Chris Ryan?

  Jeremy Irons is like, yes.

• 30:39Andy Greenwald?

  Oh, because of it's an Apple phone? So you think Tim Cook somehow got through the Emmys?

• 30:45Chris Ryan?

  Yeah, I think so.

• 30:47Andy Greenwald?

  That's wild. It does help me. It does track with my previously held opinion that everyone is behaving like it's last call at the money bar. Like, this is all ending soon, so we gotta get there quickly.

• 30:59Chris Ryan?

  But like, I honestly admire them for being like, well, we could keep this as like a kind of soapy office drama about these two women who respect each other but are constantly like rival, like are also rivals. And instead, they're like, what has to happen is Alex Levy, who's Jennifer Aniston's character, needs to facilitate the defection of an Iranian nuclear scientist and his gymnast daughter. And it has to happen at Jennifer Aniston's TV studio interview.

• 31:27Andy Greenwald?

  Do you feel like there was a meeting of like the local chapter of SAG or like, like the Broadway Actors Alliance where they were like, great news, like Morning Show is gonna film in New York? And like, there was a moment when they thought it was gonna be Law and Order for them, where they were like, Jennifer Aniston needs a father and like, beloved that guy character actor Peter Garrity was just like, Papa's gonna work one more time, and he'd fly in Jeremy Irons on a private plane.

• 31:51Chris Ryan?

  Yes.

• 31:52Andy Greenwald?

  That's cool. Um, the only other thing that I heard about this season was that I believe, is this correct, that it's set in 2024, but it's not about that? Like, there's no election going on?

• 32:02Chris Ryan?

  So far, it's about the Olympics and the Olympic coverage.

• 32:05Andy Greenwald?

  Let's keep focused. Casey Wasserman's thrilled. That's awesome.

• 32:09Chris Ryan?

  Paris Olympics.

• 32:11Andy Greenwald?

  No, I know. But he wants the story focused on the beautiful Olympic flame and how it goes from one location to another.

• 32:16Chris Ryan?

  I'm sure that the season will end with, with the Olympic flame thriving in Los Angeles.

• 32:21Andy Greenwald?

  Tom Cruise brought it here. Remember that?

• 32:22Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 32:23Andy Greenwald?

  It was a simpler time.

• 32:23Chris Ryan?

  Maybe he'll make an appearance on the Morning Show.

• 32:26Andy Greenwald?

  You have done something in the past where you have, like, you have a couple scratch-off tickets that you can use and like, one of them is to make me watch something.

• 32:35Chris Ryan?

  And it has to do with nuclear scientists defecting?

• 32:37Andy Greenwald?

  Well, I leaned in at that point, but you, you used it for me to watch the January 6th episode of The Morning Show?

• 32:43Chris Ryan?

  Yes.

• 32:44Andy Greenwald?

  We'll monitor the situation. If you need me back on this for anything, I'm willing.

• 32:48Chris Ryan?

  I stay up later than Greenwald.

• 32:50Andy Greenwald?

  That's true.

• 32:50Chris Ryan?

  My wife and I have several shows that we watch together. Morning show is one of them. It just is a great conversation starter. Clearly, look at us. Just look at, look at this banter. Kyle, what do you think?

• 33:05Chris Ryan?

  Do you think that gymnast should have defected on television? Anyway, um, that's what I've been doing. Let's take a quick break and we'll come back and we'll talk about Alien Earth and Black Rabbit.

• 33:18Speaker 09

  FanDuel is now available everywhere in the U.S.

• 33:26Speaker 09

  So you can get in on the sports action no matter where you are, including these places.

• 33:36Speaker 09

  Make this your most rewarding season ever with FanDuel. Age and location restrictions apply. Product availability varies by market. See FanDuel.com for eligibility. Gambling problem? Call 1-800-GAMBLER.

• 33:48Speaker 04

  This episode is brought to you by The Home Depot. The Home Depot has everything you need to launch your holiday season in style. Upgrade your yard with this year's hottest holiday decor, including the showstopping towering Santa. Oh, I like that one. And his impressive reindeer, both 8.5 feet and both designed with incredible detail that stands out day or night. When you want decor that delivers impact, The Home Depot has it. Make your home Santa's favorite stop with the holiday decor you want, all waiting for you at The Home Depot.

• 34:17Speaker 10

  This episode is brought to you by Petivity. Cat parents are basically mealtime detectives. Who actually ate? Did they finish? Was that less than yesterday? The new Petivity Smart Feeder for cats turns everyday meals into meaningful health insights, helping you identify changes in your cat's habits and be more proactive about their health. Plus, you can feed them from anywhere. Take the mystery out of mealtime. Visit petivity.com, P-E-T-I-V-I-T-Y.com/catfeeder to learn more.

• 34:46Speaker 04

  This episode is brought to you by Boar's Head. You know what I love about football season? It's the football, but also the football watching food. And nothing hits like a Boar's Head sandwich when I'm watching a game. Really, any game day sandwich better with Boar's Head. Philly cheesesteak, layer up buttery slider rolls with Boar's Head London broil roast beef, American white cheese and picante provolone. Delicious. Then add roasted onions, peppers and Boar's Head pub style horseradish sauce. I love horseradish and you've got the ultimate game day cheesesteak. They've also got a whole lineup of premium meats, cheeses, hummus and dips, condiments and more to serve up on game day. Head to your local Boar's Head deli counter to shop now for game day sandwich inspiration and more, visit boar'shead.com. Boar's Head, committed to craft since 1905.

• 35:30Chris Ryan?

  All right, buddy. Deal's Choice, what do you want to do first?

• 35:33Andy Greenwald?

  Oh, I think we should do Alien because we've been talking about it and-

• 35:37Chris Ryan?

  Black Rabbit, people may be in various places in the viewing since it came out last night.

• 35:41Andy Greenwald?

  If you want to timestamp us, I don't think we're, I don't think Black Rabbit, season one has reached some right turn pretty finale status.

• 35:46Chris Ryan?

  It hasn't broken contain, yeah.

• 35:49Andy Greenwald?

  It doesn't, it's not B.C. As we say.

• 35:51Chris Ryan?

  Um, okay, so Alien Earth, episode seven, it's called Emergence. It was written by Noah Hawley and Marina Melnick and it was directed by Dana Gonzalez, Hawley's oftentimes collaborator.

• 36:03Andy Greenwald?

  DP, yeah.

• 36:04Chris Ryan?

  Let's do this, let's start here. Why is this show making me such a fucking hall monitor? Why am I such a narc about this? Because I, I like to think, what I don't want is for all TV criticism to be pointing out logical flaws in plot, you know? Be like, well, how would he do this? Or why would they do that? Or what's this, what's happening here? Like, this doesn't make any sense. Like, I don't think that's really a useful way to think about culture or art is just to constantly be nitpicking like that. And I think the reason why I do it with this show specifically is because I don't think that there are any like real people in it, right? So if the characters aren't exhibiting any consistent kind of behavior that-

• 36:49Chris Ryan?

  Reaches me, or touches me, or moves me, or I connect with, then you really are uh, kind of dependent on the show making some kind of sense. Now, this was the penultimate episode. There could be reveals in the finale next week that explain some things. I think that I was holding on hope that, on the hope that the Timothy Olyphant character Kirsch was somehow orchestrating some of this, was a double agent. He's still slippery. He could be working for himself. But, I think that the reason why, when I see the first scene of this episode,

• 37:28Chris Ryan?

  and it's somehow occurred that slightly, uh, one of the young synths has Hybrids. Hybrids, has dragged a Adult man. Comatose body of, of Arthur with a facehugger on it, through a ventilation shaft, I supposedly down a hallway, and into his room.

• 37:52Chris Ryan?

  And without showing like, oh, is there anybody in the hallway, like, was he not monitored? I guess at this point now Kirsch is kind of like consolidating all of the observation of these people and deciding when to say something went wrong. But, there's that, there's, uh, kind of the rather brute force way Moro decides to like take the island, which is like walk through the front door. There's a lot of moments like that, where I find myself basically like fixating on whether or not something makes sense, instead of whether or not it feels right. Totally. So I guess it feels wrong, is what I'm saying. I'm not mad about this, but I think that I'm just trying to kind of unwind like,

• 38:36Chris Ryan?

  when I'm watching a TV show, I don't want to be like, hey, stop running on the side of the pool.

• 38:42Andy Greenwald?

  I think, I mean, look, once a lifeguard, always a lifeguard. So I don't blame you for it. I think that there are a lot of nits to pick. I think when a character says, "We're going to be late, we have to hurry." And then when you see that character again, and he's taking the time to build a wooden raft to transport a corpse.

• 38:59Chris Ryan?

  I also thought those guys were like, super strong.

• 39:02Andy Greenwald?

  Yes, they could probably just carry him.

• 39:03Chris Ryan?

  What's up with that?

• 39:05Andy Greenwald?

  Similarly, the high-security lab is the most trafficked place and the most-used set in the show. It is equivalent to the break room with the vending machines on the office. In terms of how many people are there on top of each other at any given time. That beggars belief a little bit.

• 39:25Andy Greenwald?

  I think the point you made that's really worth returning to is the show only works if its central conceit delivers. And the central conceit of this show, which again, construction-wise, I think is very, very smart and admirable, and potentially wise, which is what can you do with this franchise over eight episodes with more in-depth exploration of it? And I think Noah looked at the history of the movies and saw that it's not just that there are xenomorphs and Ripley's. There are also synths and half-people, half-man, half-machine.

• 39:57Chris Ryan?

  Incorporations, yeah.

• 39:58Andy Greenwald?

  And so what, and which, which, you know, really are people too, as we've learned over the last decade. God bless them all.

• 40:05Andy Greenwald?

  And what is the thematic string to pull within that? And I think the answer, especially when you bring aliens to Earth, is what does it mean to be human? Which is a very, very broad, but very, very often rewarding question to ask in any art form. I think that the show has struggled to answer that question in any affecting, emotional way. Which is a bummer. Now, I would also say that it's an interesting assignment for a filmmaker like Noah, who is so incredibly talented at so many different parts of the television-making storytelling process.

• 40:49Andy Greenwald?

  I would say respectfully that from the work of his that we have enjoyed the most and that we've celebrated the most, whether it's the first two seasons of Fargo or Legion, which I was lucky enough to work in a very small capacity on in the first season of. The best characters are either, are usually the most extreme. They are avatars of points of view, of zeitgeist, of thematic intent, of politics, of culture. They are very rarely just a person trying to get through their day. Now, you could argue, quibble point by point, you know, whether it's like Alison Tolman's cop in the first season.

• 41:26Chris Ryan?

  I was gonna say.

• 41:27Andy Greenwald?

  Sure.

• 41:28Chris Ryan?

  Is also the most like Marge from Fargo the movie.

• 41:33Andy Greenwald?

  They are.

• 41:34Chris Ryan?

  That is the one that where it's like, but what about Alison Tolman? It's like, but you could say that that is like almost direct adaptation in some way. Indirect adaptation.

• 41:41Andy Greenwald?

  Well, it's what he does best, which is it's a tribute to something we've seen, used in a way that maybe we haven't seen before. You know, this is, I want to be very clear, because I can feel Kai's hands moving towards the edit button, that like, the ability to do that, to tell, to do television storytelling on a very high thematic level is very, very hard. But I find it less rewarding in this show when the most human moments available, again, because of maybe the real estate that you have in eight episodes, the budget expense, the storytelling weight, the fucking alien that has to go ham every episode and a half, the eyeball.

• 42:17Chris Ryan?

  That's Peter Garrity, by the way, in a big suit.

• 42:20Andy Greenwald?

  God bless him, 85 years young, still nimble. When then the most human moment is like Dame Sylvia like scrolling through photos of her husband on her iPad.

• 42:30Chris Ryan?

  Yeah, but that's the problem with that is that she just blithely was like, like their marriage is weird, like it's interesting and like we should hear about it because they are a married couple who are also.

• 42:42Andy Greenwald?

  Respectfully were.

• 42:44Chris Ryan?

  They are, were a married couple who supervised this great leap forward in scientific research and development, right?

• 42:52Andy Greenwald?

  And apparently child free by choice, but are parental figures for these.

• 42:57Chris Ryan?

  And they had a crucial disagreement about what is moral and ethical about what they were doing, what they were being asked to do by their, by their bosses. And instead of having a debate between the two of them, or in a scene, a beat, a moment.

• 43:16Chris Ryan?

  Dame Sylvia is just like, I'll do it. And Arthur's like, no. And then they're like, you're fired. Get out. And she's like, oh, well. You know, like, there's no kind of like, there's no realistic, like, emotional in exchange between two of the only humans we have.

• 43:31Andy Greenwald?

  Yes. And, and then when you do see faints toward.

• 43:36Chris Ryan?

  And so when she's scrolling, I'm like, why? You didn't.

• 43:38Andy Greenwald?

  I didn't see.

• 43:39Chris Ryan?

  She just saw him 10 minutes ago and didn't care.

• 43:42Andy Greenwald?

  Well, I assume that when I leave work today, you will spend a few moments before recording another podcast, just looking at old pictures of me.

• 43:48Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 43:48Andy Greenwald?

  Hopefully I have a better, you know, gastrointestinal experience later.

• 43:51Chris Ryan?

  I got canceled.

• 43:55Andy Greenwald?

  Honestly.

• 43:56Chris Ryan?

  Likely.

• 43:58Andy Greenwald?

  Like the scene on, the scene on the beach, like in Arthur's few moments.

• 44:03Chris Ryan?

  When he's like, I love you and, or we love, you know.

• 44:06Andy Greenwald?

  I thought that was very affecting and very sweet through.

• 44:08Chris Ryan?

  Did he say, I love you? Am I making that up?

• 44:10Andy Greenwald?

  I think that's just like, he's like, want to have a catch, kids? You're like, the screen got really blurry there. Daniel Gonzalez did a bad job focusing. Anyway.

• 44:21Andy Greenwald?

  No, it was very sweet. And like, the handholding was also a nice, like, touch. And it was, it was well performed.

• 44:27Andy Greenwald?

  It's not very much. We don't get very much of that. I think that moment was very sweet and added something new to a mythos that usually is limited to two hours and is much more extreme and about, are you alive or are you getting, you getting got?

• 44:40Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 44:41Andy Greenwald?

  And the ratio of those things, it's just, it does feel, it does feel perpetually out of whack. I did have a question. Just like, what do you think Arthur's like?

• 44:52Andy Greenwald?

  It's pretty, it's, it's really hot in Thailand. It's pretty sweaty. And he has spent, I don't know how much time in a, in an event with a absolutely disgusting space squid with its, like, I don't know what part of it jammed down his throat. And then it comes off of his face and he's just like, hey, guys.

• 45:11Chris Ryan?

  Well, that's what John Hurt does in Alien.

• 45:13Andy Greenwald?

  No, I know. I know. I know there's precedent.

• 45:14Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 45:15Andy Greenwald?

  I guess I'm just wondering, like, hygiene wise, like, do you think he's like, does he smell like an aquarium at this point? Like, what's the?

• 45:20Chris Ryan?

  It's not like the, the scents or, or the hybrids, they're not like, oh, you stink.

• 45:25Andy Greenwald?

  Because they're polite.

• 45:26Chris Ryan?

  Well, I have questions about all the different, like, uh, levels of expertise that the hybrids have.

• 45:32Andy Greenwald?

  Sure.

• 45:33Chris Ryan?

  So like, Wendy is a super soldier who can speak alien.

• 45:39Chris Ryan?

  Isaac is like downloading all scientific information ever.

• 45:43Andy Greenwald?

  Was.

• 45:44Chris Ryan?

  And Curly is is trying to catch him in the AP power pole. But then there's like three kids who were like, I'm an idiot. What's it like? Right?

• 45:57Andy Greenwald?

  I mean, that's some kids.

• 45:58Chris Ryan?

  I have a stuffed animal and like these other two, like, what do they do? Do they have jobs? Why does Isaac and Curly have to like?

• 46:06Andy Greenwald?

  First of all, if you're the kind of guy who's like, why aren't these kids having jobs? You're gonna do great in the next five to 10 years. You were born at the right time. There's a position of power waiting for you in the Department of Labor.

• 46:20Andy Greenwald?

  Secondarily, that's really funny. Like, I think that you could.

• 46:26Chris Ryan?

  Wouldn't you be like? I guess maybe there's only like a 50% hit rate on this new technology.

• 46:32Andy Greenwald?

  Right.

• 46:33Chris Ryan?

  But wouldn't you be like, put those three back in the lab and like up their juice?

• 46:37Andy Greenwald?

  I would say that there is kind of a lack of infrastructure. You know, we've we've read a lot in the last two weeks about how it might not be that young quarterbacks fail their team. It might be that the team fails their quarterback.

• 46:49Chris Ryan?

  Yeah, it's true.

• 46:50Andy Greenwald?

  So it's very possible that they did the hybrid thing on like four Caleb Williamses. You know what I mean? Like all the tools in the world on paper, you get him in the room. By the way, Arthur is big Shane Waldron vibes. Okay. I've learned recently, not very confrontational.

• 47:08Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 47:08Andy Greenwald?

  So I can sort of see that. So so maybe they just aren't ready to step up. When you have a multi-billion dollar corporation, or let's call it a league, that is expecting them to really carry the day.

• 47:20Andy Greenwald?

  Then I guess the next, what's the next version of this? That like putting them into the tower in episode one is like having a rookie play.

• 47:26Chris Ryan?

  Boy Cavalier, don't you hire the shanny of robots? Like, don't you hire the Kyle Shanahan of robot development? Who's just like, I can take any fucking robot and turn him into.

• 47:37Andy Greenwald?

  No, because if you're Boy Cavalier, you hire four people and then you just walk around barefoot all day.

• 47:42Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 47:43Andy Greenwald?

  Like, it is, it is just, it's just, it's asking a few too many things to hold together.

• 47:49Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 47:49Andy Greenwald?

  You know, like, the idea of like, who's keeping track of who, when, at any moment, like? It doesn't feel fair for an audience to be doing this calculation, all these calculations. Like Kirsch, iPad-ing it around, being kind of in charge, took some of the stink off of it for a little bit. But it does reach a point where it's just, it's just hard to keep track of who is keeping track of anyone at any time. They can, Wendy can turn on them and be like, "You shouldn't have done that," and then leave, and they can all look at each other and be like, "Ooh, I hope she's not mad. Too bad we can do nothing to stop her, even though we have a big button marked 'Stop Wendy,' and she just depowers, right?" Or whatever.

• 48:30Chris Ryan?

  I think the idea there is that Wendy is just up against the line of, like, you guys might not be able to stop her. Because I don't think they have a remote control that just shuts her down, do they?

• 48:40Andy Greenwald?

  Wouldn't you?

• 48:41Chris Ryan?

  Yeah, I would have a kill switch, for sure. Yeah.

• 48:44Andy Greenwald?

  These guys, I mean, it, you know, Cavalier is right there in his name.

• 48:48Chris Ryan?

  I suppose it is. Move fast and break things.

• 48:50Andy Greenwald?

  Look, and it's the kind of thing where for the first two years, your offensive system dazzles the league, and the next thing you know, you're going to play the Bills in a make or break game, and you might be the ex-coach of the Miami Dolphins. You watch morning show, I read The Athletic, and this is where we meet.

• 49:06Chris Ryan?

  I want to talk to you a little bit about what has been characterized in the press as the big moment of the episode, which is fair enough. It's the finale, like, the concluding couple of minutes where Hermit, Wendy, and Nibs are trying to escape the island.

• 49:23Andy Greenwald?

  By the way, that's just a little boat. That's not even like a go-fast boat.

• 49:28Chris Ryan?

  No, I mean, I don't even know where they are, or when, what civilization beyond this new Siam looks like.

• 49:35Andy Greenwald?

  The Weyland people just kind of walked there, it looks like.

• 49:37Chris Ryan?

  I know, they just swam. They're trying to get off this boat. It turns out Hermit going around to everybody on the island and being like, "Is there a boat? Can I get it? Do you have the code?"

• 49:48Andy Greenwald?

  "I'd like to get my sister off of this island."

• 49:49Chris Ryan?

  Yeah, loose lips, sunk.

• 49:52Andy Greenwald?

  The ship was fine.

• 49:53Chris Ryan?

  Ship was fine. I guess Nibs wasn't fine.

• 49:55Andy Greenwald?

  Loose lips, sink.

• 49:57Chris Ryan?

  Nibs. So basically, as they're trying to get off this island and get to the dock, it turns out that Wendy has pretty decent control over a xenomorph, and can instruct it to kill, hide, follow, save them, whatever. There's a fight on the boat where they're trying to get off, and Hermit's old compatriots try to stop them. At one point, it looks like Nibs is going to kill one of Hermit's colleagues, and Hermit stuns her, right, with a gun, but it seems like it kills her.

• 50:36Andy Greenwald?

  He does the electric thing that I think works on xenomorphs.

• 50:42Chris Ryan?

  Right, and she seemed real messed up by that.

• 50:45Andy Greenwald?

  She did.

• 50:45Chris Ryan?

  Yeah. Wendy is like, what did you do? What did you do?

• 50:50Andy Greenwald?

  Which seems like the strange question. I think it's very clear what he did.

• 50:54Chris Ryan?

  I think the idea is Wendy is viewing this as like, it's us against everybody.

• 51:00Andy Greenwald?

  Right.

• 51:00Chris Ryan?

  And there's no distinctions, which I suppose you could say would be a human trait, although we haven't really seen a ton of that in humanity recently. You can make some distinctions between like, well, these people work for these people. It's just following orders or whatever. But what did you make of the moment? And did you feel like it hit the dramatic heights that I think it was supposed to?

• 51:19Andy Greenwald?

  No. I found it all a little muddled and confusing.

• 51:23Chris Ryan?

  Which is weird, because it's shot in broad daylight.

• 51:25Andy Greenwald?

  Which is also maybe not the right choice. I don't know. Let's walk it back a couple of steps. Like, again, in terms of like your security, in terms of your security protocols and what works in a two-hour movie versus an eight-hour show, having, creating hybrids who can touch monitors and do anything does seem like a god-level cheat code that is pretty tough to work your way out of. So she touches a screen and frees the xenomorph, and then off it goes. I guess at that moment, she has made a decision, Wendy, about what's important to her, which is like what you said, right? It's just them getting off the island. Everybody else can...

• 52:09Chris Ryan?

  Right.

• 52:10Andy Greenwald?

  I was gonna say live with it, but it's actually the reverse.

• 52:12Chris Ryan?

  Die with it, yeah.

• 52:14Andy Greenwald?

  When they are then confronted in their journey, and by the way, I should say that the scene where they saw their gravestones was a good scene. That was another, like, a moment that was like evocative, thoughtful, and paid off its premise. Then the Weyland goons come out of the marsh grasses. They're wearing their ghillie suits, and Wendy does a dog whistle, and the alien comes and wreck shop.

• 52:38Chris Ryan?

  Duolingo does wonders.

• 52:41Andy Greenwald?

  I get... I get so many passive aggressive Duolingo messages because my daughter used my email to join Duolingo and has embarked on language journeys on four different languages. And that, it is pissy.

• 52:54Chris Ryan?

  They gotta start being a lot nicer to you because you know, like the AirPods now can translate.

• 52:58Andy Greenwald?

  Oh, so wait, so they should, who should be nicer to me?

• 53:01Chris Ryan?

  Like, Duolingo should be like, hey, we, we'd love for you to just hang out with us a little bit more again. Like you're such a good time. Instead of like, we're really disappointed that you haven't kept your streak alive.

• 53:11Andy Greenwald?

  Seems like you don't really want to learn French. Quel dommage. Why are you looking at Kaya? She knows that's French just because she was in Italy recently? Look here. Eyes here.

• 53:23Chris Ryan?

  Hey, come on.

• 53:26Andy Greenwald?

  Anyway, I like that you're just sort of low key threatening Duolingo like they're about to be taken out of business. The daylight thing, it wasn't so much to me that the xenomorph didn't, looked a little goofy in the daylight. It was when the xenomorph is walking over to Wendy and what should be kind of a cool scene. And there have been moments, at least in my memory of the Alien franchise, where Ripley has come very close to Alien.

• 53:49Chris Ryan?

  Yes, especially in Resurrection.

• 53:49Andy Greenwald?

  Yes, exactly. When there's, when the Alien recognizes a little bit of itself in her, right? Because she has.

• 53:53Chris Ryan?

  Quite literally, yes.

• 53:54Andy Greenwald?

  Yes. So, so that, that moment. So there's a little bit of echo to that, much like, and Noah's really good at these sort of like, sort of recognition echoes throughout the work that he adapts or iterates from. My eye was drawn to Joe, to Hermit, to Alex Lothar's character, who, who I think is, he's one of the most exciting young actors out there. I love, I love everything he does from End of the Fucking World to Howard Zenn to Andor. Excited to see him playing a different kind of role. So this is in no way, Kaya, a criticism of Alex Lothar. But if you watch him in that scene.

• 54:27Chris Ryan?

  Start recording.

• 54:29Andy Greenwald?

  My main takeaway was he does not know what he's playing here, or he hasn't been told what he's playing because he looks. A little confused, a little worried, and it's like, what actually is the character playing? He is face to face with a space monster that tried to kill him multiple times. Not this specific one, but you know what I mean. Punctured his lung and is generally something that one should avoid. He's also protective of his sister. And now it's walking up to his sister and being friends with him and also has just violently massacred people in front of him. And he is a medic. This is like runs is antithetical to his whole core belief system.

• 55:04Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 55:05Andy Greenwald?

  He's like, whoa, what do I do here?

• 55:07Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 55:08Andy Greenwald?

  So then when the B side to that story is now other people are going to murder other soldiers again, with no distinction between who is who. And he's just like, I want people to stop killing people. And she's like, what did you do?

• 55:22Chris Ryan?

  He shot his girl, right? Her girl.

• 55:24Andy Greenwald?

  Yeah.

• 55:24Chris Ryan?

  Right.

• 55:25Andy Greenwald?

  But he, we know, I guess fundamentally, I don't think it is as leading a question.

• 55:30Chris Ryan?

  One of the more interesting ideas that the show put into play. And I don't know if I found that it either intellectually or visually like met the moment. But I still respect the fact that it kicked this round is what is, what is it that would make Wendy Marcy? What does she retain other than some references to culture? Like some, I, we used to watch Ice Age together. Do you remember that?

• 55:55Andy Greenwald?

  Right.

• 55:55Chris Ryan?

  That would make it her. And would Alex know the difference? And that is.

• 56:00Andy Greenwald?

  Hermit.

• 56:00Chris Ryan?

  Hermit. Know the difference. And that's why Kersh and Cavalier keep him on the island in the first place is to basically like do a kind of.

• 56:09Andy Greenwald?

  Yeah, stress test.

• 56:09Chris Ryan?

  Stress test of like, is she recognizable to this person? Like, would that be? And I think there is that line where it's like, if she, if it's not recognizable to the family, then what we have is a very expensive failure, right?

• 56:23Andy Greenwald?

  Yes.

• 56:25Chris Ryan?

  I thought that.

• 56:28Chris Ryan?

  That just got, I think maybe the fact that that got swallowed up into an action sequence was maybe why we both are reacting the same way, which is like, I just don't know if that moment hit as hard as it was supposed to, because it's, it's, it's, there's a lot of like confusing developments. Furthermore, I think by that point in the episode, I was starting to be like, so there's 100 soldiers on this island who can surround the five or 10 guys that Yutani sent. But they were not around for the containment of aliens or like the securing of, of hybrids. So then that leads me to wonder, like, is the experiment really like, how are these hybrids interacting with these Xenors? But I actually

• 57:12Chris Ryan?

  think like I've gotten past that. And I'm just like, that's not, there is not some master conspiracy going on in this show. There is a, this is what you see is what you get.

• 57:20Andy Greenwald?

  You're asking, I think that's very well framed. I think it's very generous interpretation. And I think it's very, I get that. That makes sense to me. And again, with the show, conceptually, I am on board for it. It's in terms of execution. Like, I did not find it to be particularly enjoyable hour of television because of the way there were so many, there's so much turbulence in terms of the experience of watching it. There are moments like the moment when Cavalier quizzes the sheep eyeball on Pi.

• 57:51Andy Greenwald?

  That's sick. That's like really cool. It's a great scene. It's executed. It's shot well. Like, it's creepy. It's disturbing. When the show hits, the show hits, but it does not have a fluidity or a flow in terms of, in a, in a, in a way that makes it a week to week compelling, pleasurable experience. And I think it's because it falters on the human moments that usually stitch together the bigger, that can stitch together, not just stitch together the big ideas, but also paper over some of the granular inconsistencies that truly you and I don't care about. It's that we keep feeling them, or if the shape of them are bumping against them. Like, the last point to make on that is probably the Moro Kersh.

• 58:36Andy Greenwald?

  Collision, which sort of upends what we thought was happening.

• 58:39Chris Ryan?

  Yeah, I think we thought-

• 58:40Andy Greenwald?

  I was like, oh, is Kirsch, is he a double agent? Is he working for Wayland? Or is he, or was luring Moro there always the goal? But also, how on top of it is Kirsch to the point where he is aware that a chestburster is about to come out of-

• 58:55Chris Ryan?

  Arthur.

• 58:56Andy Greenwald?

  Arthur, and he can just trap it in, in the open field?

• 59:00Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 59:00Andy Greenwald?

  It's like a Cooper DeJean tackle, by the way.

• 59:02Chris Ryan?

  They are actually like quite adept at containing those aliens. So that's what leads me to believe like, whatever damage the aliens are doing, they are aware of it and allowing it to happen because they could end it whenever they want it. Like, those guys went in, took care of the fly in like five seconds.

• 59:17Andy Greenwald?

  Can I make a pitch for what I want the last scene of the last episode to be?

• 59:20Chris Ryan?

  Sure.

• 59:21Andy Greenwald?

  I would like it to be Wendy at a cafe some years in the future. And she looks at another table in the cafe and she sees the xenomorph there-

• 59:29Chris Ryan?

  And it's just-

• 59:29Andy Greenwald?

  Having lunch and he goes-

• 59:32Chris Ryan?

  I think that's a great idea.

• 59:34Andy Greenwald?

  Wouldn't that be nice?

• 59:34Chris Ryan?

  You should write television.

• 59:35Andy Greenwald?

  Because then the alien is enjoying the fruits of Earth, cafe culture.

• 59:40Chris Ryan?

  That's another thing is like, don't let that fucking alien get off the island.

• 59:44Andy Greenwald?

  Is that your advice?

• 59:45Chris Ryan?

  Well, because you're just gonna make me so mad about like, so Ellen Ripley just lived her whole life and like, didn't know that aliens were in Thailand?

• 59:53Andy Greenwald?

  Hmm. Well, I mean, was she well-traveled? I don't know, like-

• 59:57Chris Ryan?

  I'm just saying, it's like, we're like, I'm okay with him being like, Prometheus and Covenant didn't happen.

• 1:00:03Andy Greenwald?

  Right.

• 1:00:03Chris Ryan?

  But I, I, I hope that the aliens stick to this part of Earth.

• 1:00:08Andy Greenwald?

  Well, I think that the-

• 1:00:09Chris Ryan?

  And don't mess with like, alien and aliens and like, what they're about.

• 1:00:12Andy Greenwald?

  No, I think the point you've been making from the beginning is a good one, which is, we haven't really heard about this place-

• 1:00:18Chris Ryan?

  Sure.

• 1:00:18Andy Greenwald?

  In the larger mythos, which means it might not be-

• 1:00:20Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 1:00:21Andy Greenwald?

  Right.

• 1:00:21Chris Ryan?

  Um, okay, so let's talk a little bit about Black Rabbit.

• 1:00:24Andy Greenwald?

  Okay.

• 1:00:25Chris Ryan?

  The entire season, eight episodes dropped on Netflix last night. I believe we both watched the first two.

• 1:00:30Andy Greenwald?

  Mm-hmm.

• 1:00:32Chris Ryan?

  Stars Jason Bateman and Jude Law as, uh, two middle-aged brothers in New York City. Jake, uh, is, um, Jude Law. And Jake is a successful, if stretched in, restaurateur. Uh, while Vince is a falling star, you could say.

• 1:00:47Andy Greenwald?

  Hmm.

• 1:00:47Chris Ryan?

  Um, scratching together, get rich quick schemes and trying to stay ahead of his nefarious creditors. He's a guy in debt.

• 1:00:54Andy Greenwald?

  And his own demons, I would say.

• 1:00:56Chris Ryan?

  For sure. Uh, when Vince unexpectedly turns up in New York City on the night of Jake's restaurant, then, on the night that Jake's restaurant is to be reviewed by the New York Times- Things start to change for both brothers.

• 1:01:08Andy Greenwald?

  I told you, old media still matters.

• 1:01:09Chris Ryan?

  And I, this, for what it's worth, this is written by Zach Baylin, and who wrote Creed 3 and Gran Turismo and The Order, which is a movie both of us liked.

• 1:01:21Andy Greenwald?

  Yeah.

• 1:01:21Chris Ryan?

  And King Richard, which he was nominated for an Academy Award for, along with Kate Sussman, who's his creative and I believe life partner. The first two episodes are directed by Bateman, the ones that we're gonna be talking about. There is a middle block handled by Laura Laney.

• 1:01:34Andy Greenwald?

  Crazy.

• 1:01:35Chris Ryan?

  And the final two are directed by Justin Kurtzel. So, a lot of talent involved.

• 1:01:40Andy Greenwald?

  An awesome director. The Long Road to the North, is that the name of the show that we watched, and The Order?

• 1:01:45Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 1:01:46Andy Greenwald?

  And his life and creative partner is Essie Davis, who plays Dame, what's her name?

• 1:01:51Chris Ryan?

  Sylvia?

• 1:01:51Andy Greenwald?

  Yeah.

• 1:01:52Chris Ryan?

  Well.

• 1:01:53Andy Greenwald?

  It's really all one big show.

• 1:01:56Andy Greenwald?

  This crazy thing called life.

• 1:01:58Chris Ryan?

  I, you go first.

• 1:02:01Andy Greenwald?

  Me?

• 1:02:01Chris Ryan?

  I'll go first. Really liked it.

• 1:02:03Andy Greenwald?

  Okay.

• 1:02:03Chris Ryan?

  Really liked this. I'm, I, I think that this is a very nostalgic show for me, in terms of it being about one of my favorite cities and about going out and going to restaurants and going to bars and, and, and owing people money, you know?

• 1:02:21Andy Greenwald?

  The Spotted Pig after hours, yeah.

• 1:02:25Chris Ryan?

  Even the way it's constructed, you know, I think because Bateman directed it and because it's on Netflix and because this is his first major television work, I think, since Ozark, there's gonna be a lot of Ozark comparisons.

• 1:02:35Andy Greenwald?

  Right.

• 1:02:36Chris Ryan?

  And I think it's slightly more, it's paced in a more stately way than Ozark was, which isn't to suggest that it's stately, it's just not the, holy shit, a season's worth of stuff just happened in the first 15 minutes of, of Ozark. But, I, I, I will hear and understand tons of criticisms of it. There's no reason for these episodes to be an hour and eight minutes long.

• 1:03:00Andy Greenwald?

  Yeah.

• 1:03:01Chris Ryan?

  There is definitely some flab. But I think that my level of enjoyment, both for Bateman's performance, just enjoying Jude Law being like a ambitious hotshot restaurateur, and the setting.

• 1:03:16Andy Greenwald?

  Yeah.

• 1:03:16Chris Ryan?

  And the Mayu, Maya?

• 1:03:18Andy Greenwald?

  Milia.

• 1:03:19Chris Ryan?

  Milia. Well, that's what happens when Duolingo just goes by the wayside.

• 1:03:22Andy Greenwald?

  I think he directed Tone in the Barbarian, by the way, John Milia, I believe.

• 1:03:25Chris Ryan?

  Yeah, that's good.

• 1:03:27Andy Greenwald?

  That's why you don't have me on that podcast anymore.

• 1:03:29Chris Ryan?

  You should replace me.

• 1:03:32Chris Ryan?

  I enjoyed the first two episodes.

• 1:03:33Andy Greenwald?

  Mm hmm.

• 1:03:34Chris Ryan?

  I enjoyed them.

• 1:03:35Andy Greenwald?

  I got some positives for you. It's not gonna be what you think it's gonna be.

• 1:03:37Chris Ryan?

  Yeah, I will. Based on your text messages?

• 1:03:40Andy Greenwald?

  Yeah, well, I mean, I hate pilots, man. Pilots are tough and and I'm glad I watched.

• 1:03:45Chris Ryan?

  The big sin of this pilot.

• 1:03:46Andy Greenwald?

  We can talk about that, and we will. I'm glad I kept going. It did temper some of my feelings about it.

• 1:03:51Chris Ryan?

  Has that ever happened before?

• 1:03:52Andy Greenwald?

  Never. First time. But I'm still learning, you know. I think the...

• 1:03:57Chris Ryan?

  I wish we had Instagram for when you when you did your Barbie trailer rant.

• 1:04:00Andy Greenwald?

  Don't know what you're talking about. Don't give her ideas.

• 1:04:04Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 1:04:06Andy Greenwald?

  We give her... There's too much free time for her to find this stuff while we're recording.

• 1:04:13Andy Greenwald?

  The... There are things, there are definite things that I like about the show. First and foremost being like Jason Bateman's a very charming and charismatic actor. And I think it's also fun that he has, after such a long career and, you know, a child actor, darker times, research and everything like that, has grabbed the reins of his creative opportunities to the degree that he not only can shepherd a project like this, get it onto Netflix, direct it, but choose the juicier, darker part for himself to give himself opportunities that maybe casting directors wouldn't. I also like the New York-iness of it. I like, I think, as a fan of both restaurants and the New York Times restaurant reviews, this world is ripe for some sort of storytelling.

• 1:04:57Andy Greenwald?

  And there are moments when I think the show does take advantage of it, both in terms of like very, very smart, actual, smart but legitimate observations like restaurants are nightclubs for adults, which is how Vince pitches The Black Rabbit as a concept to his brother in the flashback that starts the second episode. But also there's just...

• 1:05:16Chris Ryan?

  Nightclubs technically for adults as well, since you have to be a certain age to get into them, but be that as it may.

• 1:05:21Andy Greenwald?

  Well, I think, I think people who, you know, who were...

• 1:05:23Chris Ryan?

  Age out of going to the club.

• 1:05:24Andy Greenwald?

  In some ways, yes. I think that there are moments like that take full advantage of it. Like there's a shot in the second episode where the hoodlums who are pursuing Vince say, "We should tell him he's not coming," talking about Vince. And they go into like a Turkish bath or a Russian bath in the Lower East Side, and the camera just follows them. On this labyrinthine route all the way down to a sub-basement, which is even more claustrophobic into a hidden office. And that idea that you can have, living in New York, that the city folds in on itself and it's like an M.C. Escher picture of rooms onto rooms into stairways into stairways, each with hidden meaning and hidden access, is very exciting and very compelling, even if I've never really been a Schfits kind of guy.

• 1:06:02Chris Ryan?

  I haven't either.

• 1:06:02Andy Greenwald?

  You ever did that in your day?

• 1:06:03Chris Ryan?

  No.

• 1:06:05Andy Greenwald?

  Some people still swear by it, but we don't have them on the podcast, so we'll move on. All of that, I'm fine with.

• 1:06:14Chris Ryan?

  Yes.

• 1:06:15Andy Greenwald?

  I think that one of the things that I found the most jarring about the pilot, I don't even want to characterize it as a negative. Like, this is actually a good thing for Netflix, because Netflix's business model is so savvy, or maybe its algorithm is so savvy, that this show works. I mean that without judgment in it.

• 1:06:35Chris Ryan?

  I hear you.

• 1:06:35Andy Greenwald?

  Like, it is absolutely tailor-made to show up on the screen as an autoplay, or if you like, when people finish Ozark.

• 1:06:44Chris Ryan?

  Or bloodlines, or like damages, which it kind of reminds me of, like, sort of like earlier century.

• 1:06:50Andy Greenwald?

  This is what I was gonna say. It is no sin to do a cover version in a very recognizable key for people, because that is a proven pleasure spot. And the show will deliver on that in terms of like the rising stakes and the backstabbing and the mystery inside of the mystery. All that makes sense to me. I wrote, there was something about the first 15 minutes of the show that I was like, oh, this is super pre-woke television. And what I mean by that, in the same joking way that like the guy I love on Instagram, James Dimitri, who like reviews greasy spoon fry-ups in London, and if they serve any bread that's not like buttered white toast, he calls it woke toast. This is what I meant, in the sense that the show starts with a man looking in a mirror, like cleansing himself before putting it on for a crowd,

• 1:07:35Andy Greenwald?

  and everyone's sexy, and there's violence, there's guns, and then something goes crazy, and then it stops and says, "One month earlier."

• 1:07:41Chris Ryan?

  Yes.

• 1:07:41Andy Greenwald?

  And I said, "No, no."

• 1:07:44Chris Ryan?

  As it was beginning, I was like, "This is a good fucking show."

• 1:07:47Andy Greenwald?

  Exactly. I was like, "Oh, they're playing The Walkman, and it's doing something really radical. It's starting us in the shit. Why wouldn't a show do this?" And then it did the thing that I think even, I think finally now, development executives are hitting pause on. Like, this has gone too far.

• 1:08:00Chris Ryan?

  If they just started the show with Jude Law... Peeling himself off the cot in the back of the Black Rabbit and tonight's the big night. All of that information is conveyed beautifully.

• 1:08:09Andy Greenwald?

  I agree.

• 1:08:10Chris Ryan?

  Obviously, you are given this insight into A, a crime is going to be committed at a certain point, probably many of them, and B, someone is going to get shot and but also that you can see that the restaurant has reached a even higher echelon of of success than it had previous, you know, after this New York Times review that's sort of like the culmination of the first episode, but they just take the gas, they they just they deflate the balloon with going back a month. It just started the month earlier. Like, nobody needs

• 1:08:44Andy Greenwald?

  It's okay.

• 1:08:44Chris Ryan?

  The gunshot to be like, I guess I'll keep watching Jason Bateman and Jude Law run around New York City.

• 1:08:49Andy Greenwald?

  I hope if any development executives do listen to this podcast, please take that note from us. Like, it is absolutely, I've I've been in those meetings, I've gotten those notes that in the attention economy that we have, we have to start with the most fraught moment possible. But then if the most fraught moment possible for your show, timeline wise occurs one week later, three months into your story, and you have all this throat clearing to do, maybe reconsider the show.

• 1:09:13Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 1:09:13Andy Greenwald?

  Maybe just start where the story starts or where the story ought to start and see how it flows from there. Broadly speaking, I found the word that I wrote, and again, this is not a criticism of the entertainment engagement of it, because when I watched the second episode, I was like, I could 100% see myself just binging this on a flight. There's nothing wrong with it. These are good actors. It's, you know, it's high production values and it's loosely in a world that I'm interested in, interested in that drops enough, like, okay, Danny Meyer, or like, oh, mixed use in Murray Hill. And I'm like, ooh, yes, go on. Like, I I I I get that.

• 1:09:50Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 1:09:50Andy Greenwald?

  That is appealing. But regardless, I did write down that I found this like phony baloney in the sense that like,

• 1:09:59Andy Greenwald?

  It is humorless, it indicates everything.

• 1:10:03Chris Ryan?

  I think Bateman can be funny in this.

• 1:10:04Andy Greenwald?

  Bateman is a charming and funny performer, but my main takeaway, I was like, why am I finding this very determinative and like, heavy and, you know, serious in a way that I found oppressive as opposed to Task, which I love, which DJ Grasanova aside, is also darkly lit.

• 1:10:21Chris Ryan?

  This dude's praying and being like, my family is broken, yeah.

• 1:10:24Andy Greenwald?

  And I have to say, like, these are apples and oranges, so it might not be fair to compare them, although they are both fruit, that I have the sense, when I watch Task, that Brad Inglesby, who created it, has been in these kitchens, he has been in these rooms, he has wrestled with some religious morality struggles in his life, and there is a patina of authenticity to it.

• 1:10:47Chris Ryan?

  Sure.

• 1:10:47Andy Greenwald?

  You know, inside of these rooms. When I watched the first two episodes of Black Rabbit, I felt that there was a lot of authenticity into the movies Jason Bateman and everyone else had watched to make the show. Like Jude Law in this, I love Jude Law as an actor, and I don't begrudge Jude Law wanting to be in some version of Michael Clayton in Mean Streets. I don't know if I buy him doing that, but I respect his right to be the guy in those movies, and it's just a framing thing of, you know, do you, when they go to their late mother's house, and they're like, we have to sell this or whatever, it looks beautiful. It's lit beautifully. It looks like it has good bones, you know, which I think is inaccurate to what the house

• 1:11:30Andy Greenwald?

  does in the story, but the aesthetics of the shot matter more in that moment than the storytelling.

• 1:11:35Chris Ryan?

  That's interesting, I didn't mind that scene.

• 1:11:37Andy Greenwald?

  It's a good scene, brothers are good in the scene.

• 1:11:40Chris Ryan?

  I think you're touching on something where it's like, the authenticity thing is really interesting, and whether or not you're imitating the art that you love rather than the life you want to depict. I find the two brothers, one who's spiraling out quite publicly in all of the ways that you would normally say, like, this guy is in trouble, he owes money, he doesn't have a phone, he doesn't have any cash, he's, you know, basically got to scarf fast food wherever he can to get a meal.

• 1:12:10Andy Greenwald?

  He has some sick layers, though.

• 1:12:11Chris Ryan?

  And honestly, probably could put that Sonic Youth t-shirt on Depop and do quite well for himself.

• 1:12:17Andy Greenwald?

  What about his black denim jacket?

• 1:12:18Chris Ryan?

  But... Jude Law, who is by all, you know, like, all hallmarks of success is a successful person. Is also like, I have crisis after crisis after crisis.

• 1:12:30Andy Greenwald?

  Yep.

• 1:12:30Chris Ryan?

  And has confusing, you know, perhaps other like crimes that we are not quite clear on. Because in the first two episodes, there's this whole thing with the bartender, um, who refuses to come back to work and.

• 1:12:43Andy Greenwald?

  It seems like we are, we are, I mean, I made a joke, probably I shouldn't have, like, to misbehavior in bad behavior, rapacious, actually criminal behavior in the restaurant world over the last 10 years.

• 1:12:54Chris Ryan?

  Yes, don't know, I haven't watched past two episodes.

• 1:12:56Andy Greenwald?

  It seems intentional that there is some spotted pig, uh, it's a sim, Black Rabbit seems like a lot like a spotted pig, which was the hotspot where celebrities and musicians both invested in and partied. And then it was revealed, um, sometime later that the restaurant tour behind it, uh, was up to no good.

• 1:13:14Chris Ryan?

  Yeah, and like the spotted pig, I think that the, one of the cool things that they've done with Black Rabbit is like, there's always another room that you can't get into, you know?

• 1:13:22Andy Greenwald?

  Yes.

• 1:13:23Chris Ryan?

  Like Spotted Pig had like these tiered kind of like private dining rooms upon private dining rooms. And, and it was like, to your point about the M C Escher quality of it, like you'd go into this thing and then it would just be like, well, I'm here, I can't get that level. And then even the person in that level can't get upstairs.

• 1:13:39Andy Greenwald?

  I can eat this burger here and, you know.

• 1:13:42Chris Ryan?

  Sadly, take a picture of it on my iPhone 6.

• 1:13:45Andy Greenwald?

  Bono is upstairs right now, but I don't even know where the stairs are.

• 1:13:47Chris Ryan?

  Yeah, yes.

• 1:13:48Andy Greenwald?

  Yeah, I think it gets a lot of that right.

• 1:13:50Chris Ryan?

  I think, so basically what I think is like, it maybe is more truthful than it is authentic. Like, I like the, the way the characters are pit against one another, but also have affection for each other. I read an interview with Bateman and Law where they were talking about like the durability of brothers and family as like a dramatic.

• 1:14:07Andy Greenwald?

  We wouldn't know.

• 1:14:08Chris Ryan?

  Structure because it's like you can break up marriages, you can break up friendships, but ultimately family, you're always connected, whether it's through your dead mother or whatever it is, like you've got like this, this connective tissue. And when the second episode began and it was yet another flashback.

• 1:14:24Andy Greenwald?

  Yep.

• 1:14:24Chris Ryan?

  Uh, well, I guess the first episode starts with a flash forward, the second episode starts with a flashback. I was like, this is cool, we're gonna get a little bit more. And I thought that flashback in the first, second episode actually was like, this is neat. You can see an earlier version of Bateman, you can see two guys who think they're basically at the same kind of point in their lives. One's gonna go down, one's gonna go up, why, why did that happen?

• 1:14:45Andy Greenwald?

  And then there's the music video. Of them in a early 2000s, I guess.

• 1:14:51Chris Ryan?

  Cold War kids kind of band?

• 1:14:52Andy Greenwald?

  Long wave vibes?

• 1:14:54Chris Ryan?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:14:55Andy Greenwald?

  You know, like, kind of like post-strokes, new rock, whatever. But they actually make the video, which was a bold choice.

• 1:15:02Chris Ryan?

  And now, sadly, because it means we're old, that era is as far away from our current moment than as CBGB's was for when we were living in New York at first.

• 1:15:15Andy Greenwald?

  Right.

• 1:15:16Chris Ryan?

  Do you know what I mean?

• 1:15:17Andy Greenwald?

  Yeah. So us talking about this is kind of like old us, like people older than us talking about Spike Lee's Summer of Sam when it came out. And I was like, whoa, look at Adrian Brody's hair. That's crazy. But that was like 20 years before the movie came out. That's fun to think about. Thank you.

• 1:15:35Chris Ryan?

  Will you keep watching?

• 1:15:37Andy Greenwald?

  Yeah, I don't know. I mean, I was, I was all the way out at the beginning, but then when it settled into what it is, which it does sound like I'm, it sounds like I'm actually in debt to Troy Kotzer from Coda when I say this. I'm not like, I see what, I see the shape of it and it's, there's no shame in being a very high-class version of a type of crime show. There are enough, there's enough on the margins that make it, that kind of make it compelling.

• 1:16:02Chris Ryan?

  Is there a writer's room term for the need to put a, a mystery or a, something to solve on top of what would just be like a character drama?

• 1:16:13Andy Greenwald?

  There's not even a term for it. It's just the industry now. Like.

• 1:16:16Chris Ryan?

  Like you need to have like, who's robbing the black rabbit?

• 1:16:20Andy Greenwald?

  Yes.

• 1:16:21Chris Ryan?

  As like, okay, like we get piecemeal stories.

• 1:16:23Andy Greenwald?

  What are we, what are we, why, it's not, it used to be, I think, how do we get people to watch the next episode? And now it's how do we get people not to turn away? And you have to front-load everything. I mean, this is true. Look, this is the same sensibility that Kaia brings to our Instagram page, day after day.

• 1:16:41Andy Greenwald?

  What's sticky? You know what I mean? Like, what can we, how can we really drive the conversation?

• 1:16:46Chris Ryan?

  Engagement, yeah.

• 1:16:47Andy Greenwald?

  Clickbait. So I get that. I just wish that there was a structure where there was more to sink into.

• 1:16:54Chris Ryan?

  Yeah, I just, I mean, I-

• 1:16:55Andy Greenwald?

  But it's relatively big stars. It's a limited series intentionally. Zach Baylin is a film writer and, you know, TV can be a different animal. It doesn't need to be. There's opportunity for it to be. And it's fine to deliver something that's straight down the middle that doesn't surprise. But there's an element, when I watch the show, that might keep me from watching it more. Where it's like, when Vince goes back, I don't know if he's in Queens or Brooklyn, and he goes to the bar, that like, it's the one place that doesn't sell $50 fucking hamburgers anymore. And the guy who's the bartender there is that guy. They like, they're like, who's the actor?

• 1:17:31Chris Ryan?

  He's, he was in Ozark, yeah.

• 1:17:33Andy Greenwald?

  He's in everything, being that guy. And God bless him. He should work. He's our next Peter Garrity. I love him. But like, there's a moment when it's like, you could surprise, but instead you comfort. The Troy Kotzer part that where the criminal mastermind is deaf, like, that's a surprise moment.

• 1:17:48Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 1:17:48Andy Greenwald?

  And aesthetically, it's like, it's cool. That's it. That came out of nowhere. And I leaned in. Chris Coy, who's one of the guys, one of the hoods? Yeah. I'm just, just Cheryl over here. Chris Coy plays one of the, the-

• 1:18:04Chris Ryan?

  That could be a new way of us recapping episodes. It's like, at that point, I leaned out. But then I leaned in, you know? When Grasanova came in-

• 1:18:11Andy Greenwald?

  For what's worth, I watch television from a rocking chair.

• 1:18:13Chris Ryan?

  Sure.

• 1:18:13Andy Greenwald?

  So it's a constant back and forth. Chris Coy, who plays one of the toughs, who's standing behind the guy who's the son of Troy Kotzer, did a lot of scenes with Tom Pelfrey in Banshee, a show I still think you should check out.

• 1:18:24Chris Ryan?

  I will.

• 1:18:25Andy Greenwald?

  They had a big confrontation. It was very good.

• 1:18:27Chris Ryan?

  Did they? Is like, a huge fight?

• 1:18:29Andy Greenwald?

  That's, yes, I leaned in to that confrontation, which is to say, I thought that was pretty sick. Last thing on Black Rabbit. We don't know how brothers are to each other. We're as close as we're gonna get.

• 1:18:39Chris Ryan?

  Probably.

• 1:18:40Andy Greenwald?

  Would, is there ever a world in which I would emerge from arrivals blinking into the New York sunlight? And you're just waiting for me? We've had no text messages-

• 1:18:49Chris Ryan?

  What airport is that supposed to be? Is that LaGuardia? Is that what it's like there now?

• 1:18:54Andy Greenwald?

  My thing was more like-

• 1:18:55Chris Ryan?

  Where do they let you wait at all?

• 1:18:58Andy Greenwald?

  Well, if you have a Jaguar, vintage Jag, like Jude- It's not just that, it's like, you remember the Seinfeld thing, like, I'm not driving you to the airport? Like, this goes beyond driving someone to the airport. This is sending a ticket into the ether, assuming someone got on the plane, because that person doesn't have a phone.

• 1:19:13Chris Ryan?

  And then picking them up.

• 1:19:14Andy Greenwald?

  Just waiting until they emerge.

• 1:19:16Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 1:19:16Andy Greenwald?

  We don't know what kind of airport-arriver Vince is. Maybe he needs to go to the bathroom, maybe he checked a bag.

• 1:19:21Chris Ryan?

  Sure, skis, he could be oversized luggage.

• 1:19:24Andy Greenwald?

  He came from Reno, there are ski trails up there.

• 1:19:27Chris Ryan?

  It's Tahoe adjacent.

• 1:19:29Andy Greenwald?

  That's what I'm saying, like, that was-

• 1:19:31Chris Ryan?

  You asked the right questions, man, you always do.

• 1:19:34Andy Greenwald?

  Which was more plausible? Jude Law doing that for his brother, sight unseen at an airport? Or Jude Law's entire family being big Nets fans?

• 1:19:42Chris Ryan?

  That is fucking hilarious, but I think accurate to, like, new money in New York.

• 1:19:46Andy Greenwald?

  I agree, I think that that was a knowing thing, when he's like, because who loves the Nets? And I think the internal joke is, no one.

• 1:19:54Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 1:19:54Andy Greenwald?

  But everyone who lives kind of Park Slope adjacent, who's just like, I don't know what to do with these kids.

• 1:19:58Chris Ryan?

  My company has Nets tickets.

• 1:20:00Andy Greenwald?

  Like, let's go!

• 1:20:00Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 1:20:01Andy Greenwald?

  Don't you love our team featuring-

• 1:20:04Chris Ryan?

  Michael Porter Jr.

• 1:20:05Andy Greenwald?

  Michael, everybody's a podcaster.

• 1:20:08Chris Ryan?

  Uh, thanks for joining me today.

• 1:20:11Andy Greenwald?

  Did I have an op? What do you mean, joining you?

• 1:20:13Chris Ryan?

  Uh, thanks to Kai.

• 1:20:14Andy Greenwald?

  Who's coming on the second hour?

• 1:20:17Chris Ryan?

  My guest Brendan Carr-

• 1:20:18Andy Greenwald?

  There it is.

• 1:20:18Chris Ryan?

  Is joining me. Um, thanks so much for joining, we'll be back on Monday to talk about Task. Maybe some more Black Rabbit. Um, Lowdown is coming, Slow Horses is coming back, there's a lot of really good TV on right now.

• 1:20:30Andy Greenwald?

  I think all that's coming next week, so we better get on it.

• 1:20:32Chris Ryan?

  There's a crazy, like, Thursday is essentially D-Day for us. Not literally, we're not, we're not-

• 1:20:38Andy Greenwald?

  We don't know. We don't know, timestamp it, we don't know. But good luck, everyone.

• 1:20:52Speaker 08

  What's the secret to being a great host this season? Keeping things deliciously simple. Like mixing Simply Cranberry into a festive drink as guests arrive. Or serving up a warm mug of Simply Apple on a chilly night. That means less time behind the scenes and more time in the moment with everyone. Crafted with real fruit, Simply juices and fruit drinks make any holiday drink effortless, inviting, and completely delicious. Simply. Say yes to Simple.

• 1:21:21Speaker 11

  They're running a Cover 2 defense. But you're running to get game day deals on Uber Eats. Keep everyone at tonight's watch party fed with deals from your go-to restaurants. Or stock up with deals on your favorite snacks and groceries. Whatever the occasion, get game day deals on Uber Eats all season long. It's not football without food. Uber Eats. Order now. Terms apply. Product availability varies by region. See app for details.