What Happens When You Swear Off Men feat. Ashli Pollard

If you've thought about quitting dating, swearing off men altogether, or joining the 4B movement (don't worry, we define it if you're not familiar), this episode is for you. We are joined by entrepreneur/marketing expert and recent viral sensation for the no-men movement, Ashli Pollard, to discuss why she decided to stop dating two years ago and how her life has changed since. We talk about living life outside of the male gaze, talking to your friends and family about this choice, sex and pleasure, what people get wrong about the movement, how she sees her future (including motherhood), and how both men and women can help support women better. Before Ashli joins us, we're sharing the juiciest plane passenger situation we've encountered, and how we ended up on contractor-Tok. Enjoy! Follow Ashli on Tiktok @ashli_p, listen to her podcast Unfiltered Entrepreneur, and read her substack Cocky. Follow us on Instagram @girlsgottaeatpodcast, Ashley @ashhess, and Rayna @rayna.greenberg. Visit girlsgottaeat.com for tour dates, merchandise, and more. Thank you to our partners this week: Aura Frames: Get $45 off at https://auraframes.com with code GGE. Hinge: Download Hinge today. Article: Get $50 off your first purchase of $100 or more at http://article.com/gge. Quince: Get free shipping + 365-day returns on your next order at https://quince.com/GGE. Fresh Direct: Get $50 off your first order at https://freshdirect.com with code GGE. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Speaker 00

  I heard about the 4B movement and I said, you know what? A lot of my life has been focused around the male gaze. What would it look like to adopt this for a year? How would this change my outlook on everything?

• 0:27Ashley Hesseltine?

  This podcast is a Dear Media production.

• 0:30Rayna Greenberg?

  Hi, guys.

• 0:31Ashley Hesseltine?

  Hi, guys.

• 0:31Rayna Greenberg?

  Welcome back to another episode of Girls Gotta Eat.

• 0:34Ashley Hesseltine?

  Welcome to December.

• 0:36Rayna Greenberg?

  Ooh.

• 0:37Ashley Hesseltine?

  I'm wearing my winter white.

• 0:38Rayna Greenberg?

  Oh, yeah, you're in all white.

• 0:39Ashley Hesseltine?

  I love December.

• 0:40Rayna Greenberg?

  You do?

• 0:41Ashley Hesseltine?

  You really do.

• 0:42Rayna Greenberg?

  I don't get it. I've never understood it.

• 0:44Ashley Hesseltine?

  The holidays.

• 0:46Rayna Greenberg?

  People constantly tell me, I love New York in December. I'm like, have you been to New York in October? You're like, I would like it to be colder and darker.

• 0:53Ashley Hesseltine?

  New York in December is so special. It's like the most special time. No, it's not October or June, which are the two elite months. But I find that it's never like that bitter cold. Also now because of global warming, sorry to get political. But it's just, it's mild. The holiday markets, ugh. We're not in New York. I'm just over here waxing poetic about New York. I'd rather be there than here. It just doesn't hit the same here and we're going to be.

• 1:18Rayna Greenberg?

  I really hate being in like a sunny climate during honestly Halloween, Christmas, Thanksgiving. What's the point?

• 1:24Ashley Hesseltine?

  I don't know, though. I'm telling you, it's gotten colder here while it's gotten milder everywhere else. Like around Halloween, I was checking temps and we were always aligned with like Boston.

• 1:34Rayna Greenberg?

  That's your weather report.

• 1:35Ashley Hesseltine?

  It was never that much different.

• 1:38Ashley Hesseltine?

  We used to do weather reports.

• 1:39Rayna Greenberg?

  All right, let's take our partners and then we'll jump right in. Thank you to Hinge. Download Hinge today.

• 1:46Ashley Hesseltine?

  Whenever you do that.

• 1:47Rayna Greenberg?

  No. Leave it.

• 1:53Rayna Greenberg?

  Usually guys are like a discount, but like it's just like, do this thing.

• 1:58Ashley Hesseltine?

  But that's what you guys.

• 2:01Rayna Greenberg?

  Okay, Quince, get free shipping and 365 day returns on your next order at quince.com/gge. And thank you to Article, get $50 off your first purchase of $100 or more at article.com/gge.

• 2:13Ashley Hesseltine?

  That's what I thought on there. I knew you were gonna laugh when you read it. And then you did. Okay. Thanks to Aura Frames, get $45 off at auraframes.com with code GGE. And Fresh Direct, get $50 off your first order at freshdirect.com with code GGE.

• 2:29Rayna Greenberg?

  Why do you keep laughing? Thank you to Hinge, Jalen Hinge today.

• 2:35Ashley Hesseltine?

  Do it. Guys, happy December. Happy Cyber Monday.

• 2:41Rayna Greenberg?

  Yes, happy Cyber Monday. This time of year is our biggest sale that we do at Vibes Only. It's the whole website. It's every product. If you want an Airpods vibrator, if you want a wand, if you want Suck and Blow Gel, if you want lube, if you want to spice it up with a warming massage candle. So for your solo play or for partner play, check it out at vibesonly.com. And the code today is Viber Monday with a V, V-I-B-E-R Monday.

• 3:04Ashley Hesseltine?

  And we haven't been able to provide an update on the Dill Pickle Blow Gel, but we do want to tell you guys that it sold out in a day. The Dill Pickle Suck and Blow Gel, which was sort of a joke. You guys stormed the store and sold it out in a day. We may or may not restock. It's hard to tell. It's hard to tell of like-

• 3:23Rayna Greenberg?

  We'll wait till you get it and see if you like it.

• 3:26Ashley Hesseltine?

  No, you guys are gonna love it. We, I mean, we never said this, but we really tested that flavor to make sure it was right. And like, Dill Pickle lovers would love it. So it's not that. It's just like, did we get you all? You know, did people who wanted it get it? And is there still a demand?

• 3:41Rayna Greenberg?

  Or is this the Stanley Cup thing where everybody still wants it?

• 3:44Ashley Hesseltine?

  Yeah, exactly, exactly. So on that note, we have amazing other flavors in the Suck and Blow Gel. And that's gonna be Red Velvet and Sugar Cookie. And we brought the Peach back in a bundle. So we are offering for the first time a three Blow Gel bundle. So you're gonna get all three great gifts, great stocking stuffers. So get that Suck and Blow Gel bundle and you're gonna get the Peach with it. So.

• 4:07Rayna Greenberg?

  My God.

• 4:08Ashley Hesseltine?

  Yeah. And we're really excited for our-

• 4:10Rayna Greenberg?

  Our guest today, Ashley Pollard, and she is on the show to talk about the 4B movement, but we met her because she is the owner and the head of our Vibes Only Marketing Company, and really a brilliant woman. She has revolutionized what we do in social and newsletters, and has just been somebody we really trust to take our company to the next level. And so, we're really excited to feature her on the show today in a totally different light.

• 4:36Ashley Hesseltine?

  She's a bad bitch.

• 4:37Rayna Greenberg?

  The best.

• 4:38Ashley Hesseltine?

  She is a person that you wonder if she has more hours in the day than the average person. Like, she is truly one of those people, I know a few people like this in my life, where I'm like, they are working harder. Like, not that they're frazzled or stressed, they are just able to accomplish more.

• 4:52Rayna Greenberg?

  Oh, no men in our life.

• 4:54Ashley Hesseltine?

  That's what I'm saying. That's what I'm saying. I'm like, she is doing it all and doing it well, you know, like, it's impressive to see. And she's so successful, she's so professional, she's such a perfectionist, and she's just like, growing her businesses, and you know, she's just amazing. And so, she really is one of those people that we have gotten off calls and hear about everything she's doing with us and outside of us, and been like, damn, she's accomplishing more than the average person.

• 5:21Rayna Greenberg?

  Yeah, she is tremendously impressive, a step above the rest. And it's just really exciting to do this episode with her because we know her personally, and she's done so much for our brand and our business. And if you go to the Vibes Only Instagram, I mean, of course, Ashley and I and Tessa, we all have a hand and everything, but really, her team creates all of that. And it's beautiful and creative, so we're excited to feature her today.

• 5:40Ashley Hesseltine?

  She has changed our lives.

• 5:42Rayna Greenberg?

  Every day, I thank God for her.

• 5:43Ashley Hesseltine?

  Yeah. And we just want to remind you guys about the live shows. So, the No Crumbs Tour is going to conclude this month. We have two shows in New York on the 13th and 14th, and then we have three shows in Boston on the 19th and 20th. And it's been an amazing tour, you know. We kicked it off in September, you know, we've traveled all around, we've had so much fun with you guys, and we absolutely cannot wait to end it in New York and Boston. I mean, it's two cities that are so important to us. And, you know, I met my fiance in Boston at the Wilbur. We'll tell the story at the show, he'll be at all the shows, if you're curious, you know. And of course, New York, where it all began, the podcast began, the very first place we ever did a show, and then ever did a holiday show. And so, it just really

• 6:28Ashley Hesseltine?

  means a lot to end the tour there. And we do just want to let you guys know that we do not have a tour planned for next year. And this isn't some like retirement announcement or sad thing, you know, we want to keep it light, but we don't have a tour planned for next year and we may or may not do holiday shows next year. That's a tradition that we've done for six years and we're just going to see, you know, what things look like. We always want to come see you guys and travel and interact with you in real life. But, you know, it's the end of the year, no plans for touring in 2025. And for no other reason than we've done this a long time. And this is kind of what we're going to do is really take this break now and, and see what we want

• 7:10Ashley Hesseltine?

  to do. And we feel like we've done, gone to so many cities and done this type of show that no one's really ever done. And there's so many amazing elements to it. We've put so much hard work into it. We have so much fun with you guys when we, we come see you and we, we know you feel the same. And so basically just letting you know to get these tickets for these shows, if you want to see this show, you know, if you want to see this wild and crazy show that we've conceptualized, that it's, it's going to be the musical acts and the local talent and the strippers and the wild and the craziness and our friends and the special guests and all that stuff in these two cities that we love so much. And we really just want to be transparent that this is like the last opportunity for a while.

• 7:50Rayna Greenberg?

  Yeah. So we always want to find ways to connect with you guys, see you guys. We'll plan other events and ways to be in person with you, but this is it for touring for now. Thank you for just like an amazing year of shows. And of course we'll talk more about it at the end of the year, but if you want to see us, get these tickets, girlsgottaeat.com. And that's it for the year. We cannot fucking wait to see you guys.

• 8:09Ashley Hesseltine?

  Yeah, it's going to be incredible. New York, that show's in Times Square. We've never performed in Times Square. The Boston is the late show on Friday, which is going to be lit. A late show is always just going to be like wild and crazy. So those are the two shows there are tickets left.

• 8:22Rayna Greenberg?

  So yeah, we'll see you guys. This is a big week. I'm excited. So we're recording this before we go home for Thanksgiving. Got it in there for another episode. But I am going to London to meet my nephew and I'm going to Paris with our friend Brittany for a couple of days. And so if anything crazy happens, I'll let you guys know. But I'm sure I'll be a totally different person when I get back because I'll be an aunt.

• 8:43Ashley Hesseltine?

  Yes.

• 8:43Rayna Greenberg?

  And then this week of December 2nd, I'm moving. So I'm very excited to just see what has been done to my new house and move in and build a studio there and make it so special. And I'm like, very, very excited. And I've been having a lot of fun just like decorating and renovating and all that.

• 9:00Ashley Hesseltine?

  Big things happening in December.

• 9:01Rayna Greenberg?

  I'm excited. Yeah, it's been really, it's been really fun. I'm enjoying all of it. And I can't wait to pack up and go.

• 9:06Ashley Hesseltine?

  I can't believe it. I can't believe you're gonna be in that house. You're a homeowner. We're gonna have a New Year's party.

• 9:11Rayna Greenberg?

  I can't believe it. I love it so much. I just am fun. And everybody's just been so nice about it. I mean, I don't know why they wouldn't be, but it feels like a huge accomplishment.

• 9:19Ashley Hesseltine?

  Can you imagine they're mean about it?

• 9:20Rayna Greenberg?

  Thrilling.

• 9:23Ashley Hesseltine?

  Well, I had brought this up to you and we thought it'd be funny to talk about on the podcast, but we did an episode now exactly a month ago, and it was about the election, but also should I fuck my contractor? And we talked about Raina and her contractor and we read an email from a listener and we posted a clip on Instagram and TikTok about it and just like the way to fuck your contractor, you know, like flirt while the job is going on and then wait till it's over and let it build up and all this stuff. And I went into TikTok and the comments were so funny.

• 9:54Rayna Greenberg?

  You asked me like, have you been looking at these comments? And I'm like, no, not at all. And I had, this reached a corner of the internet that made us so happy, which I rarely say about TikTok.

• 10:05Ashley Hesseltine?

  No, TikTok's nice. Sometimes. Yeah. Well, yeah, that's the thing, right? Like, it depends on how far the reach goes. I mean, it's not like it went crazy viral, but the 100,000 people it reached were the right exact people and those are the contractors.

• 10:20Ashley Hesseltine?

  Fucking your contractor, the clip, do I fuck my contractor?

• 10:25Rayna Greenberg?

  Oh, there's so much to go. More Raina's friend.

• 10:27Ashley Hesseltine?

  I think you let that tension go until the very end. Okay, so that's the gist and the top, the top comment is from a guy named Matt. As a contractor, your bid is approved. Trevor, plumber here, I got the wrong customers lol. As a contractor, let's get that remodel started. As a GC, general contractor, I approve this message. Thinking about getting my GC license. Why don't I get clients like this? I knew I should have been a contractor. As a contractor, I approve this message. You guys are hilarious. That's called a tip. I need women like this in my life.

• 11:00Rayna Greenberg?

  This is crazy.

• 11:02Ashley Hesseltine?

  And then you ladies need any floor work done? I kid, I kid. I'll send you all my card. GC here, let me know what you need done.

• 11:10Ashley Hesseltine?

  And then, yes, fuck them every time and make the move. Sometimes we are blind.

• 11:14Rayna Greenberg?

  I just, I'm, I did not expect this response. I didn't know all these contractors were just watching our shit. And I can't believe they were so surprised by it. Like, isn't this like the main porn fantasy that you just like start fucking your contractor? Like someone's working on your house and then they fuck you?

• 11:33Ashley Hesseltine?

  Listen, Raina, I know you and I aren't like that unique, but I don't know how many other podcasts are putting out content like this. Raina and Ashley, Raina specifically, like a lot of these contractors probably never saw a clip like that. And they were like, finally, the respect we deserve.

• 11:49Rayna Greenberg?

  Seriously, but do you think they're in there every day like, is somebody gonna try to fuck me already? Like, this is every porn you watch? And like, I just, I worry that like everybody that else, that my contractors around is so hot. Cause like LA, every house he walks into, like, do you think I'm up against like other hot, like lady homeowners?

• 12:07Ashley Hesseltine?

  Probably. You're every, every situation in LA, you're up against hot people. It's just what it is. I saw a guy today in Erawan when I went over there to get lunch. He like took my breath away.

• 12:18Rayna Greenberg?

  The Venice Erawan is insane.

• 12:20Ashley Hesseltine?

  I, I was like, he's a, he's has to be famous. Like, you don't look like that and you're not famous. He probably is an actor or model, but not some like A-lister. But I was like, oh my, it's crazy to see people like that in real life.

• 12:32Rayna Greenberg?

  I mean, they, you've always said that the men in LA are better looking and.

• 12:36Ashley Hesseltine?

  Best looking men in the whole country.

• 12:37Rayna Greenberg?

  I just.

• 12:38Ashley Hesseltine?

  That's really all they got going for them, but that's.

• 12:39Rayna Greenberg?

  Totally. They don't, it's not jobs.

• 12:41Ashley Hesseltine?

  It's not jobs or personality.

• 12:45Rayna Greenberg?

  They're overcompensating. I mean, if you want to just get as horny as humanly possible, go to the Venice, Arowan, or the Whole Foods. I mean, the men there, it's bananas. I get dressed up to go to the grocery store. That's what I shop for.

• 12:59Ashley Hesseltine?

  Yeah.

• 13:00Rayna Greenberg?

  Like, I-

• 13:01Ashley Hesseltine?

  That's what you're shopping for.

• 13:02Rayna Greenberg?

  Yeah. I just, it's outrageous. Anyways, I really did not know this was going to reach this corner of the internet and I am so proud. And honestly, if you're hot, reach out to me.

• 13:13Ashley Hesseltine?

  You already have one.

• 13:14Rayna Greenberg?

  Well, I know I need more work done. I've been thinking about redoing a different bathroom.

• 13:19Ashley Hesseltine?

  Oh my god. This is why you bought a house. It's all starting to come together.

• 13:22Rayna Greenberg?

  It is a parade of hot men. Do you know how excited I am to start hiring Task Rabbits again?

• 13:26Ashley Hesseltine?

  No, this is so you. Cause when you moved into this house, you just hired all those hot Task Rabbits and then you elevated your game. You're like, you know what I'm gonna do is buy a house and get them to actually remodel shit. Like, you were like, the Task Rabbit, putting shelves up and hanging stuff isn't enough for me. I need to do some demo with these men.

• 13:41Rayna Greenberg?

  That's true. It's just like, I've leveled up the skillset also. The parade of men coming through my house two years ago, that one model, holy shit. You shouldn't be allowed to walk around looking like that. I think I'm gonna text him and just see what he's up to.

• 13:55Ashley Hesseltine?

  Okay, so we have a story for you guys. I told Rayna, this podcast could just be travel and plane stories.

• 14:02Rayna Greenberg?

  But it's just American.

• 14:03Ashley Hesseltine?

  It's always just American.

• 14:04Rayna Greenberg?

  Like, Delta, we are like the most Delta girlies in the world, but like, nothing interesting ever happens on a Delta flight. You take off and you land. That's it.

• 14:12Ashley Hesseltine?

  And again, we talked about how Americans know rules. They don't care if your tray table is up or down, if your seat is reclined, if your bag's under the seat in front of you. And I flew Delta for the first, I flew American that whole other trip we took, like, recently. So I haven't been on Delta in a, I don't know, a month or two. And so we got in Delta the first flight out on this last tour that we did. And I walked on the plane, I walked on the plane, and Rayna had port, she's gotten to the airport before me, and, cause we were leaving from LAX. And she's sitting next to this very attractive guy. And I walk on, she's already flooring with him. I was like-

• 14:46Rayna Greenberg?

  We were yucking it up.

• 14:47Ashley Hesseltine?

  They were yucking it up. So I just look at her and I was like, I see you. And she goes, he's got a girlfriend.

• 14:53Rayna Greenberg?

  Two other people at- Already come on the plane. I sat down and oh, I was wearing my Yankees hat, which will never leave me alone. And he said something about it. We started chatting and I forget why it came up, but he asked me like what I was doing and why I was going to Denver. So I started talking about the show and then this one girl walked on and goes, oh my God, I love you. I'm going to Denver.

• 15:10Ashley Hesseltine?

  Got it.

• 15:10Rayna Greenberg?

  And he's like, oh, you're like somebody. And then I was like trying to take selfies and I put my cowboy hat on. He was like, what the fuck is going on? He was great. He was very funny.

• 15:19Ashley Hesseltine?

  Okay.

• 15:19Rayna Greenberg?

  So by the time you walked on, we were already besties.

• 15:21Ashley Hesseltine?

  Got it. And you'd already been like headlining the plane. So I get on, Raina says in front of everybody, he's got a girlfriend. I yell back in front of everybody, you check his ring? Like we were going back and forth over people's heads. Right? So I sit down and I sit down next to this like nice lady and of course the Delta flight attendant comes over and she's like bag all the way under. She sits there, arms crossed until it's all the way under the seat.

• 15:43Rayna Greenberg?

  No nonsense.

• 15:44Ashley Hesseltine?

  There's no clearance, you know, and the lady was like, geez, they're so strict. I was like, oh, girl. I was like, Delta is crazy like that. I started doing all my bits about Delta versus American. She's laughing so loud. I was like, ma'am, calm down. I love it. I love.

• 15:56Rayna Greenberg?

  I thought she was a fan. Like you were like doing a set.

• 15:59Ashley Hesseltine?

  She didn't know me at all. She did by the end of the thing. She was like, so what's it? Cause she saw me talking to you and she was like, are you guys together? Cause then people don't understand why we're not staying together. We're like, no, we both like a window. It's what it has to be. And so she's like, what's going on with you two? So I told her about the podcast and you know, she looked it up and everything, but I was like doing all my jokes about American versus Delta. She was laughing so hard.

• 16:18Rayna Greenberg?

  Love a fresh audience.

• 16:22Ashley Hesseltine?

  Okay. But that's not even the flight where the shit went down. So.

• 16:25Rayna Greenberg?

  Obviously it's not because it's not American.

• 16:27Ashley Hesseltine?

  Right. Exactly. Cause that was Delta. So we get American back to LA, four hour flight. This is important. So.

• 16:33Rayna Greenberg?

  Four and a half hours.

• 16:34Ashley Hesseltine?

  Yeah. We're on American, bags wherever, you know, strewn about.

• 16:37Rayna Greenberg?

  Wherever they lay.

• 16:38Ashley Hesseltine?

  And I sit, I sit in the window. This guy comes and sits next to me. Immediately I clock him. He is really.

• 16:44Rayna Greenberg?

  Big, fit, attractive, looks like pro athlete or even like a young coach.

• 16:50Ashley Hesseltine?

  He looked like a professional baseball player.

• 16:52Rayna Greenberg?

  When he stood up, I think I was like 6'4", he's the height of the plane.

• 16:55Ashley Hesseltine?

  But stone cold face.

• 16:57Rayna Greenberg?

  I look at Ashley and I'm like, that guy's so hot. And you're like, do you want to switch seats? And I'm like, at this point, it'd be kind of weird.

• 17:02Ashley Hesseltine?

  Yeah, but didn't acknowledge my presence. Like, he was dialed in to his phone. So he sits down and I glance over and I see a full screen of blue. He is texting like crazy, right? He's texting full screen of blue. Now I'm invested, but no expression on his expressionless, just dialed in.

• 17:22Rayna Greenberg?

  So I'm waiting for him to like start flirting with you because I was gonna get jealous. Because you were like, are you gonna, do you want to switch seats to me? And I was like, no, it's okay. And I was like, if he says one funny thing to her, I'll be so upset that I'm not there. Because like if it was a hot guy and they start being chatty, then I'm like, motherfucker.

• 17:35Ashley Hesseltine?

  Exactly.

• 17:35Rayna Greenberg?

  I missed my window.

• 17:36Ashley Hesseltine?

  I know. And like, absolutely, I would trade with you.

• 17:39Rayna Greenberg?

  Oh, I know you would have. I didn't want, I was already seated and I couldn't get up.

• 17:41Ashley Hesseltine?

  Yeah. So he is on his phone and then I see one response from the other end. And I saw the profile photo. It was a photo of a girl, just like close up, like heavily filtered. We'll talk about that later. And so she writes back like one sentence and he's going pages and pages, but I couldn't read it. So I'm just seeing blue, blue, blue. He's texting like crazy. She's like barely responding. And so I'm like, oh my God, Rand, this is wild. We haven't even taken off yet. So I tell you, you can see it too from where you're sitting and we're like, he cheated.

• 18:12Rayna Greenberg?

  Of course he did. I see, from the volume of blue, I can see it. He is making no expressions and he never picks his head up once. It is a constant text bubble. It was wild.

• 18:23Ashley Hesseltine?

  Yeah. So he's in it, right? And like for every screen of copy, she gives him a three words, you know? And I'm like, I'm so into this. And then we're going back and forth and you're like, maybe he's lost custody of his kids.

• 18:35Rayna Greenberg?

  Because I tried to like conceptualize, okay, this guy never made an expression, didn't pick his head up. I'm like, he's in it? Like, and you and I are like, what could you possibly be saying if the other? Like, I could rage text.

• 18:47Ashley Hesseltine?

  Back and forth.

• 18:48Rayna Greenberg?

  I could rage text, but she's not, she's not saying anything.

• 18:51Ashley Hesseltine?

  Yes. Like my ex-wife would be doing that head down. Furiously typing, but we were going back and forth like it was not reciprocal.

• 18:58Rayna Greenberg?

  So I'm like, okay, I think that she took his kids.

• 19:01Ashley Hesseltine?

  Yes, yes, right as a theory.

• 19:02Rayna Greenberg?

  My theory is that they're divorced. She took the kids. That is the only thing that could get me to type continuously with no responses for all this time.

• 19:10Ashley Hesseltine?

  Yes. So then he gets up and he goes to the bathroom and he cries in the bathroom.

• 19:15Rayna Greenberg?

  Okay. No, first of all, he gets up and I see how tall he is and I burst out laughing and I'm like, that's the hottest man ever. And he goes in the back and we're like giggling and you're like, do you think he's taking dick pics?

• 19:26Rayna Greenberg?

  And like, we're laughing. He comes out of the bathroom. He makes eye contact with me, eyes filled with tears.

• 19:31Ashley Hesseltine?

  Filled with tears.

• 19:31Rayna Greenberg?

  And then you went into the bathroom.

• 19:33Ashley Hesseltine?

  I went right after him.

• 19:34Rayna Greenberg?

  He's sniffling down the whole aisle.

• 19:36Ashley Hesseltine?

  Tears in the bathroom, tears everywhere. I'm not kidding. There was teardroplets on the toilet seat.

• 19:41Rayna Greenberg?

  No, actually, and he is sniffling so loud. He sniffles and cries his whole way down the aisle.

• 19:47Ashley Hesseltine?

  So now I'm like, oh my God, I have to read these texts. Like, but, but by the way, this is about an hour in. So I'm just going to say it now. Spoiler alert. He did this for four hours.

• 19:58Rayna Greenberg?

  When we tell you it never stopped, he never picked his head up. He didn't even notice that you and I were looking at that screen the whole time.

• 20:06Ashley Hesseltine?

  Four hours, seven IPAs. He drank that American's flight out of Goose Island IPAs. He just switched to Bud Light. So he just drank beer, the whole steady four hours of crushing beers and texting expressionless.

• 20:18Rayna Greenberg?

  So this guy comes out and a different guy comes out of the bathroom. He's walking and he stops and starts talking to Ashley and Ashley's like, it was engaging with somebody. And I'm like, surely at this point, this guy will hear something Ashley says and say like, oh, are you a comedian? Or like, anytime somebody stops in the aisle to talk to me, like, we always see like, audience members and I like, the person next to me always at least goes, oh, are you a comedian? Like, who, that guy?

• 20:42Ashley Hesseltine?

  No.

• 20:42Rayna Greenberg?

  Zero engagement.

• 20:43Ashley Hesseltine?

  And he did have his AirPods in the whole time. I mean, there was a part of me that like, I, if he didn't have his AirPods in, I may have been like, are you okay? Cause he did take another bathroom break to cry. And then I'm like, I have to read these, right? I have to read these. So I recline my seat and like, kind of made it seem like I was falling asleep. I put my hat down all the way and I strained my eyes like I've never. restrained before. I was like getting mad that I didn't have perfect vision in that moment. I was like, eyes just work better. Like, I was just like about to like get my glasses out. Like, I was like, what do I have to do to see these? So I finally caught a glimpse. And the first thing I saw him say was, I have been crying for six months.

• 21:21Rayna Greenberg?

  When Ashley told me that, the jolt through my, the dopamine rush in my body. I was like, she saw something.

• 21:27Ashley Hesseltine?

  Yeah. So he was like, I'm in so much pain. I've been hurting. I've been crying for six months or something like that. And she wrote one thing that I saw where she said, I know you're hurt. I'm trying to read more. I'm losing my mind. I'm, I'm losing my mind like crazy. And so, cause he's writing, it's like, it was all blurred together. Cause it was a screen of blue. Like, it was hard to read. It was hard to read. So I'm leaning back and then I see him say, do you love him?

• 21:54Rayna Greenberg?

  And that's when I realized my theory is wrong. And he has done some shit. And she's in love with somebody else.

• 22:01Ashley Hesseltine?

  So then he wrote so much, it was like a full scroll and a half up of blue. And she did not respond for quite some time. All he was doing was rereading. You guys, we're not exaggerating when we tell you for four hours, he texted. And when he wasn't texting with her, he was rereading the text, except for one other time. And that's when this other girl texted him.

• 22:22Ashley Hesseltine?

  So this other girl text him, she sends him a selfie, she's wearing a lei, she's on vacation. She had sent him a video of her like swimming with like dolphins or something like, I could see the videos were so easy. Big, big photos and videos were easy to see.

• 22:33Rayna Greenberg?

  Well, he has the Pro Max, it's a biggest phone.

• 22:35Ashley Hesseltine?

  Exactly. It's a huge phone. Thank God. So really pretty, looked very happy. Like, again, I just don't think it'd be something you'd send a family member or a friend. It definitely looked like something you'd send somebody you were dating, but it wasn't too sexy. So I'm like, oh man, if this girl thinks this is her man and he's been texting his ex and crying for four hours.

• 22:53Rayna Greenberg?

  What did he tell her? I just slept on the plane.

• 22:55Ashley Hesseltine?

  I cannot.

• 22:56Rayna Greenberg?

  The way, I couldn't believe this, this man took no breaks, except for to be a fuck boy.

• 23:00Ashley Hesseltine?

  No breaks. Like, for a minute, I snoozed off. And when I came, when I, when I came back to, that's when he had switched to Bud Light. I was like, oh, they're out of IPA.

• 23:09Rayna Greenberg?

  He drank them out.

• 23:10Ashley Hesseltine?

  Yeah. So then the final thing that I was able to see was, When he wasn't texting and crying in the bathroom and crushing IPAs, he would go to the girl's Instagram and I was desperately trying to see the handle and I couldn't see it. So he would go to her Instagram and so then what I realized he had done was he had gone to her Instagram and like screenshotted a picture probably from her story and sent it back to her and said like, "He's so lucky. I miss you." And the picture, the picture like, it was the most like upward angle filtered like thotty photo. I was like, okay, I got it. Very different from the girl with the lei. And then at one point, he went back into his camera roll and he looked at the picture of the girl with the lei.

• 23:55Ashley Hesseltine?

  I don't know, maybe trying to convince himself like, you know, make a life with her, like forget about this thought on Instagram. Like, I don't know. So that, that was like really all I, all I got, but obviously we can piece it together. And the intensity that he was doing this is such the behavior of a guy who thinks he's been replaced. I mean, like if I were to guess, maybe he didn't treat that first girl so great. She moved on and now he has lost his goddamn mind. I mean, I've seen this happen with a few guy friends in my life where they absolutely lose their mind. And it's when the girl's moved on with somebody else, whether, you know, they just broke up or it's been a while. And we said this before, it's the thing that made me the most crazy with my ex was when he moved on with somebody else. It wasn't all the other fights and the chaoticness and the craziness. It was like that. And he was just in it. It was crazy.

• 24:40Rayna Greenberg?

  I just, I said to you like after like 30 minutes of this, I said like, it couldn't, it couldn't be me. I would never engage with somebody like this. Like I, you can land and like we can talk, but like if you were gonna bomb me with all this, like I have to block you until you're ready to have like a regular conversation. Like I can't go back and forth with you like this. This is not like productive for me. It feels really intrusive, like it really crosses like my boundaries. If you're just gonna go at me for four hours and it does feel like the behavior of somebody who like did something wrong, like cheated on you and then lost you and you've moved on and they're like, "I'm gonna do all these things. I'm gonna be better. Here's how the future is gonna be. Here's why I'm better than this guy."

• 25:17Ashley Hesseltine?

  Yeah, like that's what Rain and I were saying. What was he saying for four hours straight? And again, like it didn't look mean. Like it wasn't aggressive, like there weren't a bunch of exclamation points or caps or anything. Like, I think it was just sadness and like, like you said, like, I'll be better, I'll do it better. Like, there had to have been that. And she was trying her best, you know, like, again, I want to tell you guys pages and pages and her writing back one sentence. And I could read one thing she said, I know you're hurt. You know, she was trying to validate it. And then the one time when, again, when she didn't respond for like, an hour, and then he was like, losing his mind. I mean, it's just like, yeah, I guess you could just block somebody, but who knows what kind of relationship they had. And it was just wild.

• 25:55Rayna Greenberg?

  I mean, we got off the plane and we were like, literally going back and forth about like, how much money we would offer him to show us those text messages.

• 26:01Ashley Hesseltine?

  I haven't felt like that in so long. I don't even remember a time where I wanted something that badly. But I don't remember, like, nothing has made me that obsessed and like insanely curious than that. Like, I was like, I cannot believe I don't, I can't read these all.

• 26:16Rayna Greenberg?

  I didn't watch one thing on that plane. I didn't watch a movie. I read like, a little bit of a book. But he was my like, straight up entertainment for four and a half hours. I was like, is he gonna pick his head up?

• 26:26Ashley Hesseltine?

  I know. Like, when I dozed off, I was like, Ashley, get back, get your head back in the gate.

• 26:29Rayna Greenberg?

  I know. I saw you were sleeping. I was like, this fucking bitch. God damn it.

• 26:32Ashley Hesseltine?

  And I was just sitting there being like, I'm letting everyone down. Like, I was like, I'm letting our audience down. I'm letting Raina down. I'm letting myself down. I'm letting my fiance down. He was involved too. And I was like, I have to read something. I was like, I have to read something. And when I was able to lean over and see, do you love him?

• 26:50Rayna Greenberg?

  The adrenaline rush in my body. I've never felt anything like it. I just, I can't get over that in the midst of this emotional psychotic breakdown that this guy was having, he's still found a way to text another girl. What are men?

• 27:04Ashley Hesseltine?

  He's probably dating.

• 27:06Rayna Greenberg?

  Well, he needs to be, because this is not, she doesn't want to be with him.

• 27:09Ashley Hesseltine?

  Like, it's, we're joking and, you know, all that. But God, it's still, if we're right about this, and he's dating someone else who's so cute, and she's in Hawaii, hey babe, aloha, and he is texting his ex crying in the bathroom for four hours straight, it breaks my heart to think that, like, we could be that girl, you could be that girl, you know?

• 27:27Rayna Greenberg?

  I know.

• 27:27Ashley Hesseltine?

  Feeling. It's just like, she has no idea. And I could be wrong. That could have been like, a friend. Again, it wasn't like it was a nude.

• 27:35Rayna Greenberg?

  Could've been his sister.

• 27:36Ashley Hesseltine?

  But the way he fired it back up to take a look and try to convince himself.

• 27:40Rayna Greenberg?

  I you, I feel like.

• 27:41Ashley Hesseltine?

  He went back to that thought.

• 27:41Rayna Greenberg?

  I feel like you're not going back to the photo. Like, my brother's not looking at photos of me twice.

• 27:45Ashley Hesseltine?

  Right.

• 27:46Rayna Greenberg?

  I would.

• 27:46Ashley Hesseltine?

  And he saved it to his camera roll. So there is that. I think that's dating.

• 27:50Rayna Greenberg?

  So he could look at it later. Yeah.

• 27:51Ashley Hesseltine?

  Like, you aren't saving a photo of a friend or your cousin to your camera roll like that.

• 27:55Rayna Greenberg?

  I.

• 27:59Rayna Greenberg?

  I have hundreds of photos of my brother in my camera roll right now. He's doing this weird thing in my sister-in-law where I keep asking for baby photos and they just send me photos of the two of them. The baby's like obscured. Like, I got a video this morning of my brother singing. Who knows what's in his hands? It could be anything. The baby's in his arms, but like, it could be anything. It's just videos and photos of my brother in bed. He's just like.

• 28:22Ashley Hesseltine?

  Ew, did it make you feel weird?

• 28:24Rayna Greenberg?

  Yeah, it makes me feel weird. I hate it. It's, I keep, like, can I see photos of it? I have all these photos of, like, my brother in bed with, like, the dog and their baby, but like, the baby could be anything. My brother, the baby's obscured. It's just like my brother in bed.

• 28:38Ashley Hesseltine?

  No, I don't want it.

• 28:39Rayna Greenberg?

  And my dad and I were, like, talking about it on the phone last night. We're like, how do we ask them to stop? Like, it's too much.

• 28:44Ashley Hesseltine?

  Aren't you trying to say baby only?

• 28:47Rayna Greenberg?

  I texted them and I was like, hey, I would love more photos of the baby. You know, I can't even tell if the baby's in these photos.

• 28:54Ashley Hesseltine?

  You're trying to find the baby?

• 28:56Rayna Greenberg?

  We can't find the baby. And it's like, they're clearly holding something, but it could be a pillow. Like, I don't know. Like, just, I have, like, photos of my brother shirtless. I have, like, a lot of them. My whole camera roll.

• 29:05Ashley Hesseltine?

  Too much.

• 29:05Rayna Greenberg?

  I have the ick about my brother.

• 29:07Ashley Hesseltine?

  Oh, does he look good? What's his post-baby body like?

• 29:12Rayna Greenberg?

  Anyways.

• 29:13Ashley Hesseltine?

  If you and I are experiencing this, that means everybody is. Like, let's stop sending shirtless pictures of family members just because there's a baby involved now.

• 29:19Rayna Greenberg?

  I don't want it. I have so many photos of my brother. It's giving me the ick. It's so gross. Anyways. Yeah, I feel like you don't do that unless it's somebody that you're dating. So that guy, that's a girl he's dating.

• 29:29Ashley Hesseltine?

  Okay, well, that's the tea, you guys. I wish we had more for you. And then one thing I kind of regret is, which it may or may not have worked, but I was like, if I could find out like his name, and I wish I would have like turned my airdrop on, on the plane to see if his name would have popped up.

• 29:45Rayna Greenberg?

  When you said that, I couldn't believe it. It never occurred to me for one second. He had all these, what are those bracelets called? The rubber bracelets.

• 29:53Ashley Hesseltine?

  Oh, like Liv Strong style?

• 29:54Rayna Greenberg?

  Like Liv Strong, like rubber bracelets. He had like, like five or six of them on, and I was zooming in on them to see like, maybe like, it has like his company's name on it or something. Like, I was looking at all of his clothing to see like, is any of this like, is there any clues on his hat?

• 30:09Ashley Hesseltine?

  He's a celebrity now, in our minds.

• 30:11Rayna Greenberg?

  I just, I feel like, did he even exist?

• 30:16Rayna Greenberg?

  What I would give for, Ashley and I decided we would pay a thousand dollars of the company's money.

• 30:20Ashley Hesseltine?

  500 apiece.

• 30:20Rayna Greenberg?

  Yes, 500 apiece, just to pay him to show us the text messages, or even just tell us a little bit about it.

• 30:25Ashley Hesseltine?

  Right. What I couldn't get over was just how, like, I was in 3A, okay? So, how lucky the guy in 4A was and didn't even know it. He could have been looking over, reading the whole thing through the seats that whole time. I almost told JT to come up here and just stand behind him, like, you have to go to the bathroom, just to get a glimpse, because of my comedian friend on the plane. Like, he was two rows behind, and I was like, just come, I was about to be like, just come up here and look over his shoulder. Like, I just had to get info.

• 30:49Rayna Greenberg?

  Do you remember that I sat behind that tour manager for that big band? Like, and I was like, reading his text messages?

• 30:56Ashley Hesseltine?

  What? I'm sorry, if people have important lines, they should get, no, listen, at one point, I do think he almost wanted me to read it. It was a cry, no, I think it was like a cry for help. Raina, he was not being brightness all the way up. He wasn't turning it away from me at all. Like, he did not care.

• 31:11Rayna Greenberg?

  That guy, I, he never stopped staring at him. I just, the guy next to me was bothered. So, like, you would think that other people, that guy did not notice. And by the way, that tour manager guy who I spied on the whole plane, he was screaming at his ex-wife, so he deserved it, remember?

• 31:25Ashley Hesseltine?

  That guy was the fucking worst.

• 31:26Rayna Greenberg?

  Yeah. At first, I was reading his texts because I thought he was hot, and then we heard him screaming at his ex-wife.

• 31:30Ashley Hesseltine?

  Then I got all the tea on who we managed and stuff, and then we looked him up, we matched his tattoos. Yeah, we, I love investigative work on a plane.

• 31:37Rayna Greenberg?

  Yeah, we, listen, we just keep it between us. I'm not gonna drop the name of the band.

• 31:42Ashley Hesseltine?

  Remember Jeremy was gonna go see him like the next night?

• 31:45Rayna Greenberg?

  I think he did.

• 31:46Ashley Hesseltine?

  Tim Tessaco?

• 31:49Ashley Hesseltine?

  We're like, the manager's a real dick.

• 31:52Rayna Greenberg?

  And I'm on his wife's side.

• 31:54Ashley Hesseltine?

  All right, guys. Well, again, we cannot wait for you guys to meet Ashley today and talk to her. We're like really excited for the discussion, but we're just gonna talk about a couple of our partners. I am so excited to tell you about this new partner and this is Aura Frames. Okay, I love photos so much. I'm obsessed with reminiscing and reliving memories. And I love a frame and I love a digital picture frame. And this is truly the best digital picture frame on the market. It is named the best digital photo frame by Wirecutter. And Aura Frames makes it incredibly easy to share unlimited photos and videos directly from your phone to the frame. So just ready to go. Like that guy could upload all of his text into a frame and just send it to her so she could have him forever on a frame.

• 32:36Ashley Hesseltine?

  Can you imagine? And when you give Aura Frame as a gift, you can personalize and preload it with a thoughtful message. This is maybe one of my favorite parts. So you can actually send a personal message that people wouldn't even know until they they open the frame and get it as a gift. So it's an ideal present for long distance loved ones. It's a gift so special, they'll use it every day. I love this, obviously, for long distance couples, but I love it for family members. And I love this for like a elder family member, like a grandparent, and you can all load photos onto it. Like all the grandkids or the kids could like do it and the photos could continuously change.

• 33:09Rayna Greenberg?

  And Ashley and I loved the packaging. It really is beautiful and high end, so it's a great gift.

• 33:13Ashley Hesseltine?

  It's such a great gift. Yeah, different sizes of frames, different looks of frames. But yeah, a new baby, like just continue to upload them like as he grows, pictures of your brother shirtless on the frame. It takes about two minutes to set up, super easy. It's not some complicated thing. And then again, you use the app and there is free unlimited storage.

• 33:31Rayna Greenberg?

  Go off.

• 33:31Ashley Hesseltine?

  Yeah, so unlimited photos and videos, invite as many people as you want to a frame. So you get the whole family involved, no hidden fees or subscriptions. Again, featured in more than 130 gift guides, all like, you know, Fast Company, Wall Street Journal, Forbes. And there is smart photo cropping. Aura detects faces and other key details in a photo to make sure nothing gets left out and you can react with. Emojis to show you love a photo like it's really fun for the whole family. So for a limited time, visit auraframes.com and get $45 off Aura's bestselling Carver Matte Frames by using promo code GGE at checkout. So that is A U R A frames.com promo code GGE. This exclusive Black Friday, Cyber Monday deal is the best of the year, so don't miss out. Terms and conditions apply.

• 34:14Rayna Greenberg?

  Okay, and Hinge is a dating app designed to be deleted. So obviously the holidays are crazy, but I think a lot of us are taking a moment to pause and reflect on the year and the dating journey over the last year. What you want to do in 2025, how you want to date differently in 2025, maybe you want to get engaged like Ashley. So before the new year, take the time now and refresh your Hinge profile to better represent who you've grown into this past year. I mean, I think it's such a fun activity and you can do it with your friends. I've always done this with my friends, like pick new photos, refresh it, pick new prompts. Obviously, the thing that we love about Hinge the most is all of their prompts that are really, really designed to create conversation.

• 34:52Rayna Greenberg?

  And you know, what I really feel is like, if you're feeling like I'm single and I want to make this a priority, no other app makes it easier to meet people, quality people. We know so many people in relationships with people they met on Hinge, great guys. And honestly, it's just a nice way to like spend the winter. Go on a bunch of 90 minute dates, you know? And it's just, it's light, it's easy. Make it fun. If this is your goal, this is the perfect way to lean into it. And I think a lot of us have these goals where we're like, how, how can I make this attainable? If you want to start dating, Hinge is the way to do it, you guys.

• 35:24Ashley Hesseltine?

  Yeah, we have so many couples that have met on Hinge just when we were touring this weekend. We were in Minneapolis. We have a great guy friend out there and he's like such a catch and you know, I was always wondering if he was really going to find the one. And he's always traveled for work. He's super successful, attractive guy. And he's had this girlfriend now for a couple of years. We met her last year around the holidays and I had forgotten how they met and you asked and they were like, Hinge?

• 35:45Rayna Greenberg?

  Yeah.

• 35:46Ashley Hesseltine?

  You know, and I just love to hear it. Like it's so many people, like I hear it all the time.

• 35:50Rayna Greenberg?

  It's just the best new year, new dating mindset activities. So get in there, update your profile, new photos, great prompts. Obviously, one of the best prompts in there this year, I really want to. You guys can fill in what the intention is for the year. Refresh your Hinge profile early or download Hinge today and set your 2025 dating intentions now.

• 36:09Ashley Hesseltine?

  Okay, let's get into it.

• 36:12Rayna Greenberg?

  All right, guys, we are very excited to welcome a really, really special guest to us today. She is the owner of Dial Zero, the marketing company that really has just changed our lives. She is an expert in the industry and everything she does. We're so excited to feature her thoughts and insights today. Please welcome to the show, Ashley Pollard.

• 36:30Speaker 00

  Guys, I'm so embarrassed. That's so kind. Thank you. I knew I'd get an intro, but wow.

• 36:36Ashley Hesseltine?

  Yeah, I'm afraid it goes hard. Yeah, I like to make everybody feel really good. We brought you on to tell us all their secrets. We brought you on today to talk about marketing. No, I'm kidding.

• 36:44Speaker 00

  Yeah, right. All day I talk about marketing.

• 36:47Ashley Hesseltine?

  Complete opposite. Yeah. It is funny to have you on. You do our marketing, or your company does. And we're talking about swearing off men. So we love that.

• 36:55Rayna Greenberg?

  Our sex to our company.

• 36:56Ashley Hesseltine?

  Yeah, but that's how you excel in marketing, guys, by the way.

• 36:59Speaker 00

  Honestly, it's a, it's a good push for the, for Vibes Only, if anything. Let's be totally honest.

• 37:05Ashley Hesseltine?

  Exactly. This is just one big promo for vibrators. So let's talk about vibrators.

• 37:11Rayna Greenberg?

  No, we are so excited to have you because, you know, Ashley and I, of course, will, will explain what the 4B movement is. But we were talking about the 4B movement and we came across an article that both you and a former guest of ours, Amy Chan, were featured in.

• 37:26Ashley Hesseltine?

  Well, it came out of like 4B, this, 4B, that, we'll talk about it, like right after the election. And I think we were with Alyssa, who we know you through Alyssa Amaro. So, and she goes, wait, have you guys seen Ashley is going viral about this? And we were like, what? And she was like, you guys, she's the spokesperson right now, stateside for the 4B movement. And we like rushed to your social and then we saw a USA Today article. It's been a ton of articles, but it was just like your reels or your TikToks like took off. So that was just really funny that, you know, you've become this person. Is that kind of what happened? Did your content go viral and then you just got reached out to from a bunch of publications?

• 38:05Speaker 00

  Yeah, what's so crazy is I had no TikTok following. I had 200 followers and the only reason I even have TikTok is because I need to understand from a marketing perspective, like how, like the function of like how to post things. Do you know what I mean? Like I need to be able to speak to like the functionality. I didn't, I didn't want a TikTok following. I didn't care to have a, you know, anything like that. And what happened is that I logged on after the election. I saw four videos in a row of women who were nineteen, twenty, twenty-one, talking about how we need to activate the 4B movement here. And I'm a big sister and I had this like big sister moment where I felt very

• 38:48Speaker 00

  protective over them because I was like, you're gonna get, you don't know the vitriol you're about to get for this. Like you have no idea what you're signing up for by saying this. I know. And so I kind of said something just to kind of get in the line of fire. And I was like, no one's gonna see it, but the people that I know are gonna come for these girls are gonna say the things where it's like, you're young, you don't know what you're talking about. This is a reaction to the election. And so I wanted to lend my perspective and say, I'm thirty-six. It was an active choice, not in a presidential election year. And I just want to give you guys a little bit of insight into like my decision.

• 39:28Speaker 00

  And curtail a little bit of like what I know that they're gonna get, which has been, I've been gotten, getting like the worst shit ever, but I don't care. Yeah. Oh, I don't give a shit. So, but that was, that was part of it. Yeah, that, yeah, that was part of it was I was like, I don't think I would have been ready at eighteen, but I'm perfectly ready at thirty-six.

• 39:45Rayna Greenberg?

  Sure.

• 39:45Speaker 00

  So, and then, and then it took off. I set my phone down. I come back later and I had like nine thousand followers. And I was like, oh, well, let's keep going. Let's keep having the conversation. Let's be honest. And let's answer some of these things and it just hasn't really stopped.

• 40:00Rayna Greenberg?

  Wow. Well, congratulations. And that's amazing. And let's maybe kick it off by introducing the concept of what 4B is and of, you know, this, this originated in South Korea as a movement against misogyny and sexism by women in South Korea. It's characterized by four tenants essentially that all start with a Korean word because the B, but it's, it's no sex, no dating, no marriage, no children with men.

• 40:23Speaker 00

  Correct. I also think it's important to acknowledge, this is something I'm very loud about. I do think if we are going to adopt this in the US, we have to find our own name for it. Mainly because my fear is these women will lose their, you know, attention that they're trying to get for them.

• 40:39Rayna Greenberg?

  Yeah.

• 40:40Speaker 00

  Their oppression is so different from ours. So I do think that we're adopting it here and I do think we need to find a different name. There's also some like transphobic undertones that I think need to be called out, but generally speaking, same kind of vibe. You know, it's basically like, let's let go of centering men generally. And that, that's been something that they're trying to stand up against. It also kind of has a little bit of like financial implications because some people take it to what's called like 6B, which is like, you don't talk to, you ignore completely men, uh, which I'm not doing. So people are like really pushing to see if this can make economic change. To me, it's not that, but I, you know, more power to anybody who hopes for it to go there.

• 41:20Speaker 00

  To me, it's really just more about showing women who are maybe 18, 20, 25, 26, 35, I don't care. That if you feel like you're supposed to do this marriage kids thing and it's not for you, or if you don't feel like dating and you're over it, like I'm the happiest I've ever been in my entire life. So I'm not some down and out victim crying for help. So that's kind of been my point of the message is that there's joy that maybe you haven't seen before and it looks a little bit different than what other people are telling you joy looks like as a woman.

• 41:57Rayna Greenberg?

  Totally. I also just have to say, we, the USA Today article, the first sentence, Ashley Pollard is done dating men. Like, I just love it. That's the name of the movement over here.

• 42:06Speaker 00

  Yeah. The name of the movement is basically, I tell people like, yeah, vibes only. That's, that's it.

• 42:14Speaker 00

  That's, that's the, that's the name of the movement. It should be just vibes only. We're riding on vibes over here.

• 42:19Rayna Greenberg?

  And I like that it can be kind of as quote unquote extreme as you want it to be or not. It can be, you know, a temporary swearing off of this. This doesn't serve me. I don't need men. Or it can be, yeah, like if there's a man at the grocery store checking you out, you're like, excuse me, can we get a woman to do this? You don't speak to male waiters.

• 42:34Speaker 00

  I mean, I definitely won't go that far.

• 42:36Ashley Hesseltine?

  Can you go get a woman I can speak to? I don't know, like you're just, you're talking about like money and finance. I need to speak to a woman about this.

• 42:42Rayna Greenberg?

  Well, let's, let's sort of maybe unpack why you made this choice. Yeah, like what was your dating life like previously? And what led you to be like, I wanted to centralize men completely for my life?

• 42:53Speaker 00

  Yeah, you know, what's really funny is I've gotten, I've done 30 interviews now with like news outlets. And everybody has asked kind of the same question, which is like, have you had really bad dating experiences prior to this? And my answer is like, I've had really good dating experiences. I've had very long, solid relationships that didn't end up clicking for any longer than it was, basically. You know, I had a four year relationship and I had a seven year relationship that very much felt like a marriage, but wasn't obviously because we didn't get married. And, uh, and then I had like a year and a year and a year. And then the pandemic hit and I started one of four businesses over the span of two years.

• 43:36Speaker 00

  And I was just kind of like laser focused in, didn't really have any interest in dating. You know, I kind of was like, I had my fun. I was like a crazy party girl at one point, you know, I had my serious relationships. I just want to focus on my businesses. And then I heard about the 4B movement and I was dating, but not really for any point, you know? I was going on dates, I was dating casually and every, I just wasn't impressed by anybody. And I felt like the older that I got, the more men wanted me to take care of them or were interested in a relationship I just wasn't really interested in. So I heard about the 4B movement and I said, you know what?

• 44:18Speaker 00

  A lot of my life has been focused around the male gaze. What would it look like to adopt this for a year? How would this change my outlook on everything? And what was crazy is I think I completely changed as a person. I don't think anything really stayed. There was so much that I realized was rooted in, will I look hot? Will I get hit on? Will that guy look at my Instagram story and send me a little message? Will I be? You know, made fun of if I tell people I like reality TV. I mean, the list goes on. The amount of things that I was like, is this acceptable to men? Is this acceptable to men subconsciously? And I was really working all year. I wanted to challenge myself to like literally no focus at all on male interpretation of my decisions.

• 45:01Speaker 00

  Everything changed. My style changed, the way I lived changed, the way, you know, my day to day life changed. The way I talked changed, everything changed. And so I realized like, I don't even think I know who I am. Like, I feel like I met myself for the first time because I haven't been living for this validation. And it's, it gave me the most confidence I've ever felt. And I'm so happy and I feel so light and I feel so free. So for me, it's almost like I took a year off of drinking and realized I felt better. So I probably won't go back. That's kind of how it feels.

• 45:30Ashley Hesseltine?

  Yeah. Why I feel really emotional? I don't know why.

• 45:35Ashley Hesseltine?

  But it's, you're such an inspiration in that like, this wasn't that I couldn't get a relationship or get a date. You know, this is just like, I had great experiences, but a lot of us really live for the male gaze. Whether we think we do or not, you know, like thinking, maybe I'll meet someone at the grocery store. You know, like all those things really take up a lot of space in our brains.

• 45:57Speaker 00

  What am I gonna wear on the airplane? Like, it's so, it's like little, is this drink too girly? Or like, is this drink gonna make me look cool? Or it's just like every tiny little thing I tried to dissect. And I realized I don't think there was a single decision I was making that didn't consider men in some capacity. And so I'm off the juice.

• 46:18Rayna Greenberg?

  It's interesting that you bring up the way you dressed and like the way you do your hair. Cause every article I read about this, women said like, I realized I didn't need to spend hours of my time getting makeup and hair and I could be just comfortable. And I didn't have to wear clothing where I was physically uncomfortable to sit down. Like we all have those jeans. We're like, I can't sit in those. Like, you know, like, and I, I like to dress cute for me and I like to dress cute for my girlfriends. And I love that moment where you're like, yes, bitch, you look so good. But like, a lot of it is for men, of course. And I couldn't believe how many articles I read that all this was like, the amount of time I got back by not doing my makeup and my hair was crazy.

• 46:53Speaker 00

  I mean, it's also the amount of confidence, you know, like I had to work out before the day started. So I could be a bad bitch. And it was like, That was something that I realized I even thought was kind of to be like a masculine woman who's incredible and admirable, or like respected, or whatever it is, so that I could show, I wanted to make sure I showed up in a meeting to impress men. It was just like, the list goes on. I mean, I could list hundreds of things that I realized like, that I probably wouldn't own that, or I probably wouldn't have done that, or I wouldn't have gone there, I wouldn't have said this. Like, it was just like truly unbelievable, and I feel such like an intimacy to the women in my life that I feel like I didn't before.

• 47:36Speaker 00

  It's very like, do you have a Bechdel test?

• 47:39Rayna Greenberg?

  What is that?

• 47:40Speaker 00

  So the Bechdel test is something that people kind of use to gauge if a movie's feminist or not.

• 47:46Rayna Greenberg?

  Yeah, I've seen stuff about it, yeah. Tess is nodding, she knows what it is, but I don't. Explain it to me.

• 47:51Speaker 00

  So a Bechdel test is, are two women on camera

• 47:55Rayna Greenberg?

  Yes.

• 47:55Speaker 00

  having a conversation that has nothing to do with men for over a minute, or something like that. And, and like, strong characters.

• 48:03Rayna Greenberg?

  Yes.

• 48:04Speaker 00

  Not random others.

• 48:06Rayna Greenberg?

  Okay.

• 48:06Speaker 00

  And so what's interesting is that I started even noticing this kind of like Bechdel test in my friendships, where it's like, well, if you don't have anything to ask me about my dating life, or that guy, or is he texting me back, or what should I say to this, or like, do you like him, or like, do I like him, or am I okay with this, or whatever the list is. We got to talk about like, life, you know? We got to talk about politics, or ideology, or our insecurities, or what we think our futures are gonna look like. Not that we weren't having those conversations, but like, it opened up space for that even, which I thought was really great, you know? And people say like, who's gonna take care of you when you're older, or what about, like, don't you miss like, sleeping next to someone? No, like, I'm good. I'm chilling.

• 48:50Rayna Greenberg?

  I really think it's interesting that you bring up like, what women talk about in groups, because, listen, there's nothing I like more than like, getting to my girlfriends and talking about the men in their lives, and who they're dating, and who they're sleeping with, but like, I have felt in the past, like, when I don't have anything to contribute in that realm, that people don't ask me questions, and I don't have it, like, I'm just, I'm not really as much of a part of the conversation, and I have two businesses, and I'm

• 49:10Ashley Hesseltine?

  On tour and like that stuff that won't necessarily come up and you're in your head like, well, maybe no one's asking anything because I, you know.

• 49:18Speaker 00

  Well, it's challenged friendships. There are people I'm just genuinely not friends with anymore. It was the only thing we could talk about, you know? And you start to realize like, okay, well, I'm gonna talk to you about my business or like this place I'm traveling to or this conversation that I had that, you know, really opened up my eyes to some things and we don't have anything there, you know, so it's been really interesting.

• 49:44Ashley Hesseltine?

  I, I don't know. I like to give our friends credit because every time I feel like I meet a friend, they're like, how's the tour? Which I love, you know what I mean? They're not like, how's your wedding planning going? Which I'm just like, I feel like I'm surrounding myself with the right people that like, the first thing is kind of like the tour or like, how's the trap, what's going on as opposed to like, have you picked a date? Which I'm just like, well, I got the right people in my life. And I mean, Rain and I started this podcast to talk about dating, relationships and sex. You know, it's like a big part of our life and I'm engaged. I mean, so, but you can still think about these other things and I just, I love talking about that, like what women talk about and like, thinking about those relationships you might have that are, you've never talked about anything else other than your dating lives.

• 50:25Speaker 00

  Yeah, I mean, the cup runneth over, right? So if you're filling yourself up with interesting knowledge or topics or, then that's going to be what you want to talk about, you know? And to me, it's like someone saying, I read this really interesting Substack, you have to subscribe to it. Or I have this book that I want to talk to you about, or did you see this interview? Like that, even that's maybe too intellectual. Like it could be TV, it could be like, I saw this movie or I went to this playground with my nephew and, you know, somebody was saying something interesting that I heard. I don't know, but I, I think that what, what that says to me is that your, if your cup runneth over, then you also have other things to go, like, to go around. And I think there was a part of my life, if I'm being completely honest, where I didn't have anything else.

• 51:09Speaker 00

  You know, what I was going to tell you is my, who I had on my burners at any given time, you know? And like where, who's in where in the rotation or how I feel about a relationship and I need to like dissect everything, which is also, to be fair, like. Me being in wrong relationships probably at the time, but it's been very eye opening for sure, especially with friendships.

• 51:31Rayna Greenberg?

  Did you like make this kind of statement? You decided you're gonna live like this. Did you make this statement to girlfriends? Like, I'm not dating, don't expect me to be dating, don't expect me to be bringing this stuff up. Like, was that a conversation with friends or family? You said you're super close to your mom. Like, do you feel like you need to sit down and be like, I'm taking myself out of the game?

• 51:49Speaker 00

  No, but you know, friends will be like, a lot of my friends are married. I should throw that caveat in it. And most of them have kids. And so I get a lot of like, tell me, are you dating? Are you interested? Or like, is there anybody we need to know about? And I always just say, I'm not dating, I'm not open. That's pretty much what I say. You know, if it happens, it happens. But I'm not dating and I'm not open. And I'm genuinely not. And do I see it happening? No. But life is weird, you know? So I'm not dating and I'm not open. That's basically what I say.

• 52:17Rayna Greenberg?

  Okay. I like that you compared it to drinking, like, taking a year off of drinking and then just deciding to stick with it. Like, I like that comparison, because I think that's a lot of people, if they don't find this relatable, they find that relatable. Like, we've heard that story a ton of times. It wasn't some rock bottom addiction, which also is, you know, some people's story. But it was just like, I just, it wasn't serving me. So I decided to see what my life was like without it. And then I just kept it going.

• 52:41Speaker 00

  Yeah. Another analogy I tend to use. So like, I'm not a sweets girl, right? I don't love dessert. I'm not like, I don't have a sweet tooth. And so something else I try to say to people is that it's almost like I was eating cake all the time. And I decided to take a year off cake. And at the beginning, I was like, oh, my gosh, how am I gonna do this? This is so hard. This is terrible. I can't believe I could live like this. And then after such a long time, I had a piece of cake and was like, oh, that's disgusting. Like, oh, I'm not interested.

• 53:10Rayna Greenberg?

  Not at the cake?

• 53:11Speaker 00

  Yeah. Go away from me respectfully. Everyone else can like cake, but after my year away, I don't have the taste anymore.

• 53:21Rayna Greenberg?

  I mean, in the year, have you had to say, like, have guys asked you out? And you've had to be like, I'm not open for business? Like, what does that look like?

• 53:28Speaker 00

  I didn't really even think of myself as like, an active member of the 4B movement. I heard about it. I took this year off and just never stopped. It wasn't until around the election time that I realized, maybe this is something I want to start talking about. And then this opportunity just kind of positioned itself and worked.

• 53:45Rayna Greenberg?

  Do you flirt? You know, like, I feel like we want to try to get a picture of your life day to day with men around. You're at a bar, somebody approaches you.

• 53:52Speaker 00

  I'm super kind and maybe I'll flirt because I guess I'm a little bit of a flirt just naturally. But if somebody were to be like, I'm, we have such good banter. You're cute. I'm cute. Like, should we? Should we not? I basically just say, like, you don't want to date me. Like, I am too busy with the business. I'm not going to text you back. I'm not coming to dinner. I'm blowing you off. I'd rather stay at home. You know, there's also that viral TikTok where it's like, you're not competing with other guys. You're competing with my free time. And my life is just like, the best it's ever been, you know? So like, I'm just not impressed with anyone, you know? Like, I'm a baller and my friends are incredible and I'm super close with my family. And I did have everything that I could possibly want. So like, I don't see anything here,

• 54:36Speaker 00

  is kind of how I feel. Not to be a dick, you know?

• 54:38Rayna Greenberg?

  No, I think it's just honest. And it sounds like, I mean, listen, we know how you are in business and you're phenomenal. It sounds like your business really thrived. You were just singularly focused. So, talk to us about sex. Yeah, like, what does that look like if you're like, I'd love to feel a dick inside of me?

• 54:53Speaker 00

  You know, a lot of people ask me about sex and do I miss it? Is it important to me? And I would say that it was at a certain point in my life and I've enjoyed it and I've had great experiences. But being away from it, abstaining from it, you know, there's times that I've dipped my foot back in the pond and, or in the pool and enjoyed it, kind of. But I also am like, I don't really think I'm missing out on that much and not enough to really go out of my way to prioritize it again. And I've got vibes only and a girl's got to eat, you know? So like, I have ways to take care of myself. I'm perfectly content.

• 55:26Rayna Greenberg?

  Yeah. So, you know, now that the 4B movement has, you know, taken hold and people are talking about it more since the election, and you said you saw so many young women talking about this on TikTok, like, what's that been like? What are people asking you? What do you feel like the advice you need to give to people is? Let's like, talk about it since Donald Trump became president-elect.

• 55:46Speaker 00

  Yeah, I mean, I'll tell you what, I'm 10 toes deep after going viral on TikTok because men are frightening in how they're responding. And women are coming out of the woodwork saying, I'm doing this, or I've been doing this and I didn't have a word or a name for it. I mean, it's almost a one to one ratio of a man telling me that I'm used up and it's because nobody wants me and because I'm fat or I'm ugly. It's like blah, blah, blah. It's like the same shit you'd expect. Do you know what I mean? It's like, well, nobody would want you if you're this angry. And I'm like, I'm fine.

• 56:28Rayna Greenberg?

  I'm not angry. I'm fine. Yeah, I feel great.

• 56:30Speaker 00

  Yeah, like I'm, I'm sleeping like a baby. Thank you very much.

• 56:33Rayna Greenberg?

  You know what it reminds me of?

• 56:34Speaker 00

  I think I'm okay.

• 56:35Rayna Greenberg?

  You know, prior to ever hearing about the four B movement is saying, saying, you know, I don't want to be a mother. Like Chelsea Handler talked about not wanting to be a mother and the blowback she got publicly. And it's so many men being like, well, nobody would want you anyways. And it's sort of similar. It's, it's interesting, the response it elicits to men. And it's like, but I'm not, I'm not a part of your life. I'm not dating you. Like, why is this eliciting such a negative response to me? Like, I'm, I'm not insulting you.

• 57:01Speaker 00

  Uh huh. But it's taken that way, you know? And I try, I try to empathize with other people, right? I try to say like, where could this be coming from? And I can understand

• 57:11Speaker 00

  if I work at it, the defensiveness of like, you're saying something bad about men. So you're saying that I'm a bad guy. And to me, it's guilty until proven innocent, in my opinion, you know? In my opinion, we're looking at a bowl of Skittles. And if one of those Skittles can kill you, then I'm not eating Skittles, dude. I'm not going to be like highly inspecting them and like testing them at a chem lab. Like, that's just not going to happen. And I feel like we live in a time where one in four women are hurt by their husband. And one, you're vowing something to someone. You don't think that that's going to happen. That's also people that have reported it. So I don't really want to put myself in a situation where I could be dealing with that. One, women aren't taken care of, you

• 57:55Speaker 00

  know? We live in a society where I can't go running at night. I have to hold my keys between my fingers. I have to, you know, tell my friends if I go on a date, what my location is. So I don't even feel safe with men generally. And so to have this stance that I don't necessarily want them in my personal intimate space.

• 58:15Speaker 00

  React in a way where it's like, kill yourself. Well, like with all due respect, I'm out.

• 58:22Ashley Hesseltine?

  You're proving, you're telling on yourself that you're one of the men that of why we're doing this. Cause I have so many amazing men in my life. I have a fiance. We have our brothers, you know, we have amazing guy friends. I mean, we need men along in this fight with us. So I have men in my life that serve a great purpose, but also those men are not insulted by this movement because they like know they're good guys.

• 58:46Speaker 00

  They know it doesn't apply to them.

• 58:48Ashley Hesseltine?

  Yeah. So that's, it's interesting. Like it's exactly the guys that would get pissed about this, leave a comment on a stranger's Instagram, you know, are the actual guys that have made women do this in the first place, you know, and a guy who is secure in himself and cares about women would be bothered by this. They'd be like, what drove women to this point, you know, that they need to swear off of men? And like, how can I be a better man?

• 59:17Speaker 00

  I do get those comments. They're like one in a thousand, one in every 500 of a man saying, like, you have every right and I'm going to do my part. My thing to men sometimes is like, do you understand that if I'm criticizing you, I think you can be better? Like if I thought men were trash, why would I be disappointed? You know, if I thought that men were terrible, wouldn't this be what I expected? So for me, if I have negative connotations of men and I'm critiquing it, I'm saying, don't you think you could be better? Like I'm, I'm saying that I know good men. My uncles are incredible men. My cousins are incredible men. I dated incredible men. My friends are married to incredible men. And if they didn't exist, then I'd be like,

• 1:00:01Speaker 00

  eh, that's guys for you, but it's not, you know?

• 1:00:05Ashley Hesseltine?

  Right. Okay. We're just going to take a quick break and then we'll get right back into it. Tell you guys about Quince. If you are watching the video of this episode, you might notice that I'm wearing the Mongolian cashmere sweater from Quince.

• 1:00:15Speaker 00

  You're wearing like the burgundy color. I have that exact sweater in black. I'm obsessed with it. It's so good.

• 1:00:21Ashley Hesseltine?

  It's really high quality. That the pricing is crazy.

• 1:00:26Rayna Greenberg?

  I'm so impressed by everything that Quince does and this is a great website to shop on for holiday gifts. So if you're looking for really quality products and it really can be anything. They have 14 karat gold jewelry, Italian leather handbags, European linen sheet sets. I mean, really whoever you want to get a gift for in your life, you can trust that this will be affordable and also really high quality. I just bought this bag, the Italian leather hand woven slouchy shoulder bag in black. It's just like the most perfect everyday bag and I feel like anybody would like it and elevate their wardrobe. There's just so much to choose from and there's premium fabrics and finishes for that luxury feel in every piece and I just, I'm thrilled about the price.

• 1:01:04Ashley Hesseltine?

  Yeah, that I was right. It's $69.90 for that sweater. We both have like a beautiful cashmere sweater. And of course I love that with jeans or like again, the silk skirt. I'm obsessed with their washable silk.

• 1:01:15Rayna Greenberg?

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• 1:01:37Ashley Hesseltine?

  Okay. I'm telling you about Fresh Direct. I cannot believe it's already the holiday season and this brings me back to again, New York during the holidays. December, always a crazy time of year. We were always touring and being so busy around the holidays. And so I've never used Fresh Direct more than especially around the holidays because I just didn't have time to go to the grocery store. So grocery shopping at Fresh Direct is going to be a lifesaver. So anything you need for your day to day breakfast, lunches and dinners, as well as holiday parties, Fresh Direct has it all. Fresh Direct is farm to kitchen, food sourced directly from farmers, fishermen and ranchers, delivered straight to your door the same day. So you really are going to get that quality food and so convenient. Again, it's such a pain to shop, especially in like a big city like New York and

• 1:02:19Ashley Hesseltine?

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• 1:03:03Ashley Hesseltine?

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• 1:03:16Rayna Greenberg?

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• 1:04:01Rayna Greenberg?

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• 1:04:07Ashley Hesseltine?

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• 1:04:23Rayna Greenberg?

  I can't find it.

• 1:04:24Ashley Hesseltine?

  I can't even open it. And then all this garbage, you know, like every delivery I've ever gotten from Article, and I have a ton of Article stuff in my home, is just like seamless, perfect.

• 1:04:34Rayna Greenberg?

  Absolutely.

• 1:04:34Ashley Hesseltine?

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• 1:04:35Rayna Greenberg?

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• 1:04:37Ashley Hesseltine?

  Oh my god, the headboard.

• 1:04:38Rayna Greenberg?

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• 1:05:12Ashley Hesseltine?

  Okay, we're back into it. I want to talk about something that I've seen, you know, everybody has a different stance on this, on the internet and in the world, but also, people do this for different reasons, too. So, you know, it's not, everybody doesn't have the same motivation for doing something like this. And I saw something that, it was kind of critiquing the movement in the light of women who are participating punishing men and in turn punishing themselves, and that it implies that sex, for example, is for men's pleasure and we're taking that away from them. And that's certainly your right to believe that. I don't really believe that. I don't feel that a lot of women, you

• 1:05:54Ashley Hesseltine?

  included, are like, "I need to punish men." You're like, "I actually don't want them in my life in this way and I am going to have pleasure and happiness and intimacy and love without them." This isn't like, "I'm punishing myself too." Like, I don't like the connotation that only men can give women pleasure also, or love, or intimacy, or companionship. So, I just was curious what your thoughts were on that and if you've seen any type of arguments like that.

• 1:06:23Speaker 00

  I mean, I have a million. I have a million thoughts on that. I mean, I think the one that I tend to come back to with that is that I have a little bit of a nuanced approach. My first quick thing is, women are allowed to do whatever they want for whatever reason, obviously outside of like illegal things, right? So, if they're doing it for vengeance, they're doing it for vengeance, right? I also trust women, and if a woman has a decision that she makes, then I trust that she has considered that, right? But the thing that I think is even deeper than that, is that there's this implication that women aren't allowed to be angry. That makes me angry, right? Because it's like, "Oh, well, if you're doing this backlash, then you're doing it from an angry place." And I'm thinking, "And?" Right? Like, so women aren't allowed to have anger and make decisions based on that?

• 1:07:08Speaker 00

  Women aren't allowed to have negative experiences and say, "I'm done." You know, women aren't allowed to say, "I don't want to be a part of this." And so I feel like there's also a little bit of this uprising of young women specifically, who are talking about, "If we want to be different in the world, women have to be allowed to be mad. We have to be allowed to be angry." And I'm not talking about rioting or violence. I'm talking about saying, "I don't like what I've seen." And if this is a retaliatory response, which it's not for a lot of people, but if it is, then what does that mean? What does that mean to you? Do you want to get angry back and fight us? Or do you want to say, "I'm going to take an internal moment to digest and see how I participate in this?"

• 1:07:53Speaker 00

  And I think that there's something to be said about that. Because if women are angry, fine, and then what? That's kind of how I feel about it.

• 1:08:01Rayna Greenberg?

  Sure. You shouldn't say, "I'm angry," as an insult. It's like, "Yeah, I'm angry." "I'm angry because of this behavior." "I'm angry that people in the government, like Brett Kavanaugh and the President of the United States, have sexual assault charges against them." I'm angry about it.

• 1:08:15Speaker 00

  Yeah, I mean, Brock Turner.

• 1:08:16Rayna Greenberg?

  Brock Turner, Matt Gaetz.

• 1:08:19Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:08:19Rayna Greenberg?

  Like, yeah, I'm angry about it.

• 1:08:21Ashley Hesseltine?

  Pete Hegseth, everybody. There's nobody right now in the cabinet that doesn't, even that woman.

• 1:08:25Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:08:26Ashley Hesseltine?

  Even Ms. McMahon.

• 1:08:28Speaker 00

  Yeah, like, I don't feel safe, right? I don't feel safe in this country generally. And I don't feel safe knowing the little ramifications that there are for men. And so there is a part of me where I'm like, "I'm abstaining." I don't know if you guys know this, but I'm also planning to have a baby. Do you guys know that part of it?

• 1:08:44Rayna Greenberg?

  Yeah, we did know that. So you're having a baby on your own?

• 1:08:48Speaker 00

  That's the, I mean, I'm 36, you know, hand to God, you know? Like, we'll see. But that's the plan, is that we try, starting next year, at the end of next year, and see what happens. And I've been planning with a doctor for the past year and a half to get hormones ready and to get my body ready. So I'm also like, "I can experience the joy of that." You know, like, nothing has to be off the table. You can spend the rest of your life loving the people in your life, and you can flirt with people at bars, and you can have a baby alone. Like, tell me I can't, right?

• 1:09:18Rayna Greenberg?

  Right. So do you see this as something...

• 1:09:23Rayna Greenberg?

  That will go on forever. Are you open to maybe someday I'll meet somebody that changes my mind? I mean, is the door open? And your analogy alcohol is perfect because like I would never say to alcoholic like, well, do you see that?

• 1:09:36Speaker 00

  Are you gonna go back?

• 1:09:37Rayna Greenberg?

  Maybe, you know, maybe in some time you just go back to it, you know? So if that is really how you feel about it, I'm just curious. Like, what do you hope the future looks like?

• 1:09:45Ashley Hesseltine?

  Or do you not know or care?

• 1:09:46Speaker 00

  I don't know. I don't care. I think is the bigger piece of it. You have every right. I love the question. I'm not trying to.

• 1:09:51Rayna Greenberg?

  No, I like that answer. I think it's great.

• 1:09:54Speaker 00

  I mean, the way that I kind of see it is like, four years ago, I had a high paying, big time job in the fashion industry. And if you told me that I was running four businesses now with a team of like 10 plus employees, I think that you were out of your mind. So I have no idea, you know? But I also feel like the point of this is autonomy and joy, right? And so if I feel like I maintain my autonomy and that I am finding a place that feels joyful, 100%, no question. I don't see myself for the next 10 years, looking for it or being super receptive. But like, I don't know.

• 1:10:34Rayna Greenberg?

  I like that there's not a rigidity around it, you know? You're just like, well, we'll see, you know, life today is great. I may meet somebody. And I think that the open mindedness of this is what makes you approachable, you know?

• 1:10:46Ashley Hesseltine?

  People want answers. People ask me, where you think you're gonna live next year, five years? I don't know. I don't know. Like, I've never had a five year plan in my life. It's worked out pretty well. You know, like, people always want those answers around relationships, kids, moving, whatever it is. And it's just like, the answer is, I don't know. I'm taking it day by day. But I like what you said about autonomy and joy. And I encourage women to think like that outside of this when they're finding a partner, like, making sure that that's your story when you find somebody. Like, I've chosen to find somebody. I feel those things completely. And I feel really supported. And I think it has helped my life. That has not been the story in past relationships. And that's not the story in a lot of people's relationships.

• 1:11:28Rayna Greenberg?

  Yeah, you know, and I think that that's beautiful. Like, I'm not gonna go to a wedding

• 1:11:32Speaker 00

  Like what a sucker, you know?

• 1:11:37Speaker 00

  Beautiful, like beautiful.

• 1:11:39Ashley Hesseltine?

  I also wouldn't be offended. I don't care. Like people can say, like, if someone was like, fucking stupid to get married. I'm like, well, okay, that's your opinion and we'll see how it goes.

• 1:11:48Speaker 00

  Yeah, but I don't want anyone to think that that's like the point, though, you know, like the point is just like, here's the thing, my mom, my parents were together for almost 30 years, right? The whole time I was at home, the whole time I was basically alive, right? And my mom told me the whole time, you are never required to get married and you can always have a baby without being married. She has said that my entire life. And so I always kind of grew up knowing, like, I never planned a wedding. I never had like my Barbies get married. It's just like never been on the table. The guy that I was with for seven years, talked like, should I, should we be talking about that? And I was like, I'll stay with you for the rest of my life, but I don't want to do it. So that was kind of like always off the cards for me, which I also want young women, like I, I'm so grateful I was raised with that message.

• 1:12:30Speaker 00

  So a lot of this is like, my cousin who just graduated, I want her to know, you're looking at your cousin who is very happy and is not dating and is not super interested in that route. And I, you know, I just want young women to start to see that because when I started to look into the single mother by choice thing, I found a lot of women in their 50s saying that it was worth it and I'd never heard anybody talk about it. And so now I'm just trying to be a little bit of like a middle, like a younger person talking to women in their twenties about it.

• 1:13:00Ashley Hesseltine?

  Yeah. And I feel like you saying like, I'm really happy. I don't, I don't need to prove to anybody, but I am, I'm killing it. My life is amazing, you know, because I think people want to be like, yeah, that can't be true. And it's just like, hold on a second, because let's think about all the people in relationships that are so deeply unhappy. You know, like the rule that single people aren't as happy as people in relationships is absolutely false. So.

• 1:13:24Speaker 00

  I mean, it's true for me, you know, like my life couldn't be better. I have incredible friends around me. I have a wonderful family. I have a thriving business. I feel like I've really made a mark on the world that is really positive. How many people can say that? I'm really proud of my life. I always say I could die tomorrow. I'd be fine. I feel like I did good things in this world. Yeah, I would love a partner and I've always had male partners that have added a lot to my life, of course, but I don't feel a screaming deficit when it comes to something in my life. And I'd be happy either way. And I guarantee you, I'm a lot happier than lots of people that talk to me about their relationships. And I'm like, couldn't be me. That's not the stress that I could live with. I mean, I've talked to some girlfriends that have had really terrible relationship problems.

• 1:14:06Speaker 00

  And I'm like, I don't know how you get through the day. I don't. I could never focus knowing that this person is like taking so much from me. So yeah, I mean, to your point, I'm pretty happy. I mean, and think about like the young women who get to listen to your podcast. Like you guys are such great role models for this type of thing where like, it would be incredible if someone who's 45 could have listened to something like this when they were 18, you know? I think it's really powerful.

• 1:14:30Ashley Hesseltine?

  Thanks. We always say, I wish this was real when I was in my twenties, you know, something like it. Do you have info on the impact of the 4B movement in South Korea? Cause I read that the birth rate went down.

• 1:14:43Speaker 00

  Yeah, the birth rate went down. There was also a little bit of like an economic hit, you know? And there, there's like different iterations that have happened globally. There's like a women's day off that I think was in a country in Europe where women were over it and they didn't go to work and they didn't do any of the housework and they just called off. And men changed quick, like they, they caught on, right? Like it worked well there. The interesting thing to me is going to be the economic aspect of it. Like, do I actually think that we're able to organize in a country this large around something like this? No, I actually don't think there's going to be any sort of economic or political impact. But, you know, I'm the kind of person where I've always tried to support only female led businesses.

• 1:15:25Speaker 00

  Dial Zero only supports female businesses, you know, all of my businesses only work with women. And so I only try to buy female brands if possible. And so I think like, that's kind of an interesting shift that I am trying to tell people like this can extend if you're wanting to be an ally, but you don't want to give up fucking these dudes, like, you know, only shop at female brands, you know? Like support your fellow female, shout them out on social media, write a review, like, you know? There's other things that you can do to be making sure that like women get a little bit more power just in general, you know? And a lot of that's with money. And so that's a really small way to be a part of it as well. Because they have seen economic impact in South Korea based on this.

• 1:16:08Ashley Hesseltine?

  I love that message and not just because we're a women owned business, but you want to buy your vibrators from a man owned company? No, you don't. You know, like that's just one example of a product that you'd want to have women owned. But I just think that's really important. Like, I love to see that with whatever it is, you know, if you're restaurants, I mean, you can find a women owned anything, whatever you're looking for. So.

• 1:16:31Speaker 00

  Yeah, I want the Luve Tomato Candle, you know, and so I went online and I looked on Etsy to find tomato candles that were similar and I found a girl who makes them.

• 1:16:40Ashley Hesseltine?

  So good.

• 1:16:41Speaker 00

  And I'm like, great. And I saved $50.

• 1:16:44Ashley Hesseltine?

  I love this message.

• 1:16:45Rayna Greenberg?

  I do too. And I saw your TikTok about like, okay, well, if this doesn't fit into your life, you have a male partner, you're married to a man or dating a man, like, how can you be an ally? Because people did really ask you about that. Your TikTok about it was great. And I don't know this is so realistic for everybody to swear off the opposite gender, but there are so many ways to support people. We don't really hire that many men, you know, we're doing our thing too.

• 1:17:05Speaker 00

  The other one that's really funny is that a lot of people comment like, well, you should quit your job because your boss is a guy. That's my favorite one.

• 1:17:12Ashley Hesseltine?

  You're like, I am the boss.

• 1:17:13Rayna Greenberg?

  I am the boss.

• 1:17:13Speaker 00

  Yeah, I'm like, Mom, I am a rich man. Okay.

• 1:17:15Ashley Hesseltine?

  Yes.

• 1:17:16Speaker 00

  Say it to my face.

• 1:17:17Ashley Hesseltine?

  I was looking at this carousel, this woman, she does like financial advice, but she did this carousel of like things she's been saying to men lately. And it was something like, she hears and overhears a man like talking about his big house. And she's like, so what does your wife do? There's like different things like that. And she says if a guy starts talking about finances, she's like, is your wife around? I'd really, this would be more understandable if she was explaining it to me. Or like, there's a bunch of things like that. And you know, what we don't want is this episode to come off like man hating. You know, people know how we feel. But again, the men that really do support women would listen to something like this and be like, A, I'm not one of them. And B, how can I be better? And how can I support women and have them feel safe? And they live in an equitable.

• 1:18:03Ashley Hesseltine?

  Country, community, whatever it is. So.

• 1:18:05Rayna Greenberg?

  And it sounds like the way you've digested this is that it's not necessarily to punish men. It's to make you happy. This is how I can have a positive life and you know, this is how you want to live. It's not that you think every man on earth is terrible. And I still like that you say, I don't feel safe around men sometimes. I mean, how many of us don't, you know, I'm, I'm constantly looking over my shoulder. I don't feel safe after dark when I'm walking around. I've had weird experiences with men on dates, of course. But it, it sounds like you just feel empowered to make yourself happy and making yourself happy does not include men.

• 1:18:35Speaker 00

  Yeah. I mean, we're here for like two seconds. Do you know what I mean? Like we're on this planet so briefly, like I just want to like laugh and hang out with my family and travel. Like that's it. Outside of that, it, everything's an accessory. So.

• 1:18:50Ashley Hesseltine?

  And you're gonna have a baby.

• 1:18:51Speaker 00

  And then, well, let's hope.

• 1:18:53Ashley Hesseltine?

  With your kid. You're gonna be like a hot mom traveling with your kid.

• 1:18:56Speaker 00

  I'm like, she and I.

• 1:18:58Rayna Greenberg?

  You're like, I won't, I'm not gonna, I'm not gonna have men in my life, including my child.

• 1:19:01Speaker 00

  I would love to have a boy. I will take on the responsibility of raising a great man in this. I will, I would lovingly do it.

• 1:19:07Rayna Greenberg?

  Totally. Some of the responsibility does start with like, let's raise better men. Let's, let's send better messages to men. And I say it all the time, you know, I was raised by a woman that said to me, you don't need a man. God forbid a man leaves you. Make your own money, do your own thing. But I think a lot of women in our generation were raised to be these like badass bosses. But at the same time, in that generation, we didn't raise men to be attracted to women like that and to champion them. Not all of them. My brother certainly is like that. And so is Ashley's brother. But I would hope there is more of a focus today in young men, raising them to honor women, support women. Do you see people saying one, one or the other to you that we aren't doing that today, that we are?

• 1:19:46Speaker 00

  Well, similarly, I had a very close friend of mine reach out to me. She has two sons. And she said, you know, your content's making me really uneasy because, and she was, you know, a little bit harsher than this. She was very upset, which is fine, you know, a response is a response.

• 1:20:01Rayna Greenberg?

  Right. Sure.

• 1:20:02Speaker 00

  And she said, you know, I'm uneasy about a lot of this because you're kind of saying like, my sons are going to be single for the rest of my life. And I'm like. That's that's almost like saying, let's compare it to a to something easy to compare to, right? Let's say it's vibrators, right? It's a saturated space potentially to some, but good is always gonna win out, right? Good quality is always gonna win out, period, right? The cheaper ones are always gonna fall out because they didn't make the cut and that's just it. So like you raise a great man, he's gonna be Fine. so happy with someone and he's gonna treat her incredibly well and they're gonna have a great, powerful relationship because of the way that you're raising your son. And I do think that we women are also more interested in therapy and

• 1:20:45Speaker 00

  understanding our internal processes and that's a sweeping generalization that's certainly not true for everybody. But I think that men really have to take this conversation and say, why am I reacting negatively if I am, right? What's coming up for me and how can I take responsibility for that? And then the good guys, because I always challenge the good guys, be honest with yourself about what's happening in conversations when women aren't around, right? Because it kind of starts with, don't talk about her body like that. Or like, ask your wife about her mental load in a different way, right? And I think that there's just, there's conversations that men can have that are one of the good guys, the ones that ally, that are allies to us where they can say, you know, hey, here's, here's a way that you can show up for your wife better.

• 1:21:28Speaker 00

  Or hey, here's something that I learned that you can do for your sister to make her feel seen and heard. Or here's an article I read. I think it has to start with just understanding how, why we feel the way that we feel, you know? And I don't think that they understand the fear that we're like kind of ingrained and raised in us, you know, that like we're, we're raised with. I'm going on a rampage here, but like with the mental load, it's like, you know, my friend's married and her husband all the time when I'm there, he'll say like, you know, the kids haven't eaten, what do I do? And she's like, you feed them food that we have in the house, right? And so like, it's, it's as simple as saying like, I'm going to feed them this sandwich. Is that different than what you had expected? Right? Like taking some responsibility?

• 1:22:11Speaker 00

  I say all of this because I think that even the good guys probably have some work that they could challenge themselves to do to understand the female experience, whether it's with their wife or their sister or their mother or their daughter. And I think that women have an incredibly beautiful opportunity to raise men that men that are like good, you know, men that they're going to be proud of out in the world dating one day. That was a whole rant, but.

• 1:22:33Ashley Hesseltine?

  No, I, I love the conversation and of course, I get it. You know, I have friends that have boys and they're a little more easily triggered when conversations come up about like men and boys. And I understand it's like they're in a headspace I can't pretend to be in. But yeah, that was a reach also. What do you say? My sons are gonna be single.

• 1:22:51Speaker 00

  Well, I mean, my nephew, you know, my nephew and I are like this.

• 1:22:54Ashley Hesseltine?

  Yes, I have two nephews. Yeah.

• 1:22:55Speaker 00

  Yeah. And well, I mean, and I have two other nephews that are 14 and 11. But you know, my sister could easily be so offended by this because she has a three year old son. And my sister's like, I'm not phased by this. Like he's, he's gonna be a gentleman. My husband's a gentleman.

• 1:23:12Rayna Greenberg?

  Yeah, we say it all the time. If this doesn't apply to you, then it doesn't apply to you. Like the way that I've chosen to live my life is not a judgment call on how you've chosen to live your life. And if I'm saying like, I've had a problem with some men and you're like, well, not the men that I raised. Yeah. Well, then I'm not talking about them. It's not those guys.

• 1:23:28Speaker 00

  That's why it feels very similar to alcohol, you know, where it's like, I'm not telling you that you're wrong for like having two bottles of wine at a girlfriend's house, you know, like, I'm just telling you what a decision I made.

• 1:23:38Ashley Hesseltine?

  Yeah. We asked our audience while we have you.

• 1:23:40Rayna Greenberg?

  So we did. So we polled the audience and said, would you ever consider living your life according to the 4B tenants? I spelled tenants like apartment tenants. Actually, it's been haunting me for days.

• 1:23:49Ashley Hesseltine?

  I had to be like, it's tenants.

• 1:23:50Speaker 00

  I've done that.

• 1:23:50Rayna Greenberg?

  I apartment tenants. Anyways, so we, we polled about 15,000 people and 78% said, no, I would not live my life according to this. But 22% said, yes, I would consider it. And then we followed up with if you've been living your life according to 4B, what would you like to share about it, the lifestyle? And we got really positive responses from people that said they've been able to very much like you, really focus on their career, their friends, their finances. And just sort of decentralized men in general.

• 1:24:17Ashley Hesseltine?

  Yeah, I mean, nothing but good stuff in terms of like, I maybe started this and it's been a while and I don't miss it. I've been doing this without realizing it was a movement. This says, marriage is a piece of paper, dating is trash and y'all make vibrators.

• 1:24:33Ashley Hesseltine?

  I did it for three years and amazing career, excelled, deeper, stronger relationships with friends and I'm the healthiest I've ever been. My life is so much more peaceful once I no longer centralized around dating or men. It's been great. I've been able to focus on my mind, health, career and financial stability. So many pros.

• 1:24:47Speaker 00

  So many pros.

• 1:24:49Ashley Hesseltine?

  Yeah.

• 1:24:49Speaker 00

  And here's the thing, let's say somebody's not interested. If, if anybody listening is like, never on God's creation, okay? Like it, it will never happen for me. I love that for you. You have my full support. But if you find yourself single, I would challenge you to take three months to just try to completely de-center and see what you learn about yourself. I thought it was, the funny thing, the healthy one couldn't co-sign more lost weight, like more healthy. I'm telling you, like, everything got better. I hate to say it.

• 1:25:20Rayna Greenberg?

  No, I'd love to hear it.

• 1:25:21Ashley Hesseltine?

  Well, thank you again, and we'll talk to you on a call probably like tomorrow.

• 1:25:25Rayna Greenberg?

  I'm sure we have a meeting.

• 1:25:26Ashley Hesseltine?

  Do you want people to follow you TikTok, Instagram? Just give your handles, plug your company, look for clients, whatever you want to do.

• 1:25:33Speaker 00

  We are, we're thankfully in a really good place. I mean, if you want to follow any of the companies, you can follow me on Instagram and I'll, you know, have all of them tagged in my bios. You can follow me at Ashley, A S H L I underscore P. You can go follow me on TikTok at Ashley underscore P, or you could follow my Substack, Cocky, where I write articles about feminism, business, politics.

• 1:25:55Rayna Greenberg?

  Okay, we love it. Yeah. And Ashley, just thank you so much. And we just, we love working with you. Honestly, we have so many Ashes on the team. We just, we can't hire enough of us.

• 1:26:04Speaker 00

  We love you guys, genuinely.

• 1:26:06Ashley Hesseltine?

  Well, thank you. And you guys, go to vibesonly.com. You can shop on vibesonly.com and you can also check out the Instagram. Ashley's team does our social media and they're so wonderful. So that's going to be vibes only on Instagram. GirlsGottaEat.com, that's going to be your tour tickets for these remaining shows we have coming up this month. GirlsGottaEat Podcast on Instagram and TikTok. I'm Ash Hess, Raina is Rayna Greenberg. And you can subscribe on YouTube, of course. Share this episode with a friend it might be impactful for, and we will see you Thursday.

• 1:26:37Rayna Greenberg?

  Have a good week, guys. Bye.