Mel C: The Harsh Reality Of Being In The World’s Biggest Girl Band

Mel C is a singer and ‘Sporty Spice’ from the Spice Girls, through her solo career and her time with the Spice Girls she’s sold over 100 million records, making her one of the best selling musical artists of all time. Every single one of those records was against the odds of coming from a council estate near Liverpool, derogatory labels in the press calling her ‘Sumo Spice’, and music industry management that didn’t believe in her and sought to objectify her. But she persevered and helped to build the biggest girlband of all time, as well as one of the most successful solo careers of any group member ever. The world is so glad she did because, as this conversation shows, she has so much to contribute when she’s let free to do things her way. Follow Mel: Twitter - https://www.twitter.com/melaniecmusic Instagram - https://www.instagram.com/melaniecmusic/ Mels book: https://amzn.to/3R1ikGl Follow me: https://beacons.ai/diaryofaceo Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Steven Bartlett?

  Before we start, I've got to be honest with you about something. When we recorded this episode with Mel C, it was honestly one of the most moving, heartbreaking, inspiring, revealing conversations I've ever had on this podcast. And I've been looking forward to sharing this conversation with you for some time now. And then we had an incident where one of our hard drives was stolen and we lost the audio for Mel's mic, which is really, really heartbreaking because of all the episodes to lose the audio for, for it to be this one is, has been very hard to deal with. And I think I want to start by apologizing to Mel because she came here, she shared her story in such a profound, vulnerable way.

• 0:43Steven Bartlett?

  And I've carried the sense of guilt because, because when people come here, not only they're giving us their time, but they're giving us their story. And for some people, as is the case in this conversation, it's the first time that that story has been shared in this way. So I've been really struggling with that, but because it was such a profound story and to make sure we honor all of that which Mel gave us by coming here. We spent a lot of time fixing the, the audio we do have, which actually comes from one of the cameras that's rolling, not from the microphone in front of her. We've worked with a specialist to try and repair the audio as much as we possibly can. And this is one of the episodes where I'm asking you for a favor, which is to stay with us. I know it's not always easy to listen to audio when it's not as crisp as this audio

• 1:26Steven Bartlett?

  sounds right now, but there's a story underneath the lack of clarity in the audio, the lack of crispness, crispness in the audio that needs to be heard. It's one of the most amazing stories we've ever shared. And so I hope you enjoy this episode and we've put many, many, many, many, many, many, many measures in place to make sure that we never lose any audio or any footage ever again. In this case, it was out of our control, but um, this episode is worth it. So we're putting it out anyway. You're going to enjoy it.

• 1:56Speaker 01

  There's an element of guilt attached to my success. It was Joe's, you know, because I had a secret and he was killing me.

• 2:11Speaker 01

  The early days of the Spice Girls were the best and I feel blessed. But with it has been some really tough times. It was fucking dramatic how it went down.

• 2:26Speaker 01

  The tabloid media were brutal. We all got culled, terrible, horrible things.

• 2:33Steven Bartlett?

  Did you notice a change in yourself at all after that?

• 2:35Speaker 01

  Definitely, that was the catalyst.

• 2:37Steven Bartlett?

  Why?

• 2:37Speaker 01

  I became very, very ill. I couldn't control my eating. I was struggling to get out of bed. It was killing me.

• 2:46Speaker 01

  I think, did becoming famous ruin my life? Did it ruin me? Sometimes I question that.

• 2:56Speaker 01

  And yeah, that's my, I'm like, you've been it.

• 3:07Steven Bartlett?

  Without further ado, I'm Steven Bartlett and this is the Diary of a CEO. I hope nobody's listening, but if you are, then please keep this to yourself.

• 3:22Steven Bartlett?

  Melanie, when I, when I sit here with people, I, I always try and figure out the best starting point. I always know I'm going to start at the very beginning. But with you, when I was reading through your story, it was quite clear to me that the things that shaped you started at a very, very young age. I'm talking when you were two, three and four years old. So can you take me right back to the very start? I'm guessing that's like sort of 1976 ish.

• 3:45Speaker 01

  It is, and you're right. You know, things that happened to me when I was a toddler really defined a lot of who I became. I grew up just outside of the pub and I was born in West Kensington. My parents and I lived in a place called Rain Hill. And they divorced when I was, I think I was about three years old. And my life kind of quite quickly changed, you know, as lots of young people would be affected like that. And yeah, that was where the story began, I think, me developing this need to succeed.

• 4:24Steven Bartlett?

  When you say your life changed, give me a colour to what that means for you.

• 4:28Speaker 01

  So I was living quite comfortably with mum and dad, you know, the kind of happy, archetypal family life. And my mum, and we left, me and my mum left and we went to live with my grandparents. And then we we went to live in quite a different area, we're still only about thirteen minutes away. But it was quite different. We went into um council accommodation. And my um quite quickly, my mum was in a new relationship, so there was this new guy around. And it was just kind of, it just, you know, looking back, it was just very different to the world I'd entered into when I first turned upon this planet.

• 5:10Steven Bartlett?

  What was your um your family's sort of economic situation throughout this journey? Was it, were you a working class family or?

• 5:17Speaker 01

  Absolutely, yeah. I mean, my family just still are, you know, very working class, you know, through the generations. And my mum and dad were doing, you know, they were doing good. We had a lovely semi touch house in a in a nice suburb of, you know, Liverpool. And obviously with my mum leaving dad, as today, you know, lots of couples find that it is very difficult to to start again. And so we were, yeah, going into a situation where it was hard for mum to make ends meet. So it was, yeah, it was, it was quite a tough area to be um to be grown up in.

• 5:52Steven Bartlett?

  Where was your dad?

• 5:54Speaker 01

  So dad was in the house.

• 5:56Steven Bartlett?

  In the house you'd been raised in for this first few years?

• 5:58Speaker 01

  And then after, I think, a couple of years, he went travelling. And um yeah, and then he went to work abroad, actually. So I've always seen a lot of my dad, but there were periods of times when he was away. So um yeah, so it was a bit of a shake up quite early, but they're formative years, aren't they?

• 6:16Steven Bartlett?

  Hmm.

• 6:17Speaker 01

  And you're that little, you don't think about it, because as a child, your life is your life. But I think when you start to think about who you are and how you became that person, you start to, you just kind of pinpoint maybe little moments that put you on that track.

• 6:32Steven Bartlett?

  So when you look back to that, that experience of your parents separating at a very young age and then your life shifting and in hindsight, what impact did that have on you? Like when you look back and connect those dots and go, ah, that, that's the reason for that?

• 6:46Speaker 01

  I think it kind of confused me, I think, as a young person to have my location change, you know, to be taken from the family home and obviously I'm tired, so I didn't understand, you know, I didn't understand adult relationships, I didn't understand why it was happening. So this little series of events and then, you know, I have a new, I've got a stepdad and then I had a new sibling and then I had stepbrothers. And so there was just, there was just quite a lot of big things happening in my little world. And it made me just kind of confused to like where I belonged, who I was, how I fitted in to that new dynamic.

• 7:31Speaker 01

  And, you know, as I got older and my dad got married and I have this incredible family, it's very complicated and it's huge and I have half siblings, step siblings and stepparents and, and it's lovely. But I think for me, being the only child of my mum and dad, sometimes it made me feel a little bit of a spare part. And I think that's what made me feel like I had to make myself a place in the world, my own place in the world. And I think also it was about kind of earning the love of these people. I kind of felt like I had to prove that I was worthy of existence. It sounds a bit dramatic, but I think as a, as a young person, you, I mean, especially going through my teenage years,

• 8:15Speaker 01

  you, you question all everything, don't you? You know, why we're here? And a lot of that for me was like, do I deserve to be here? And so I had to make myself worthy of being here.

• 8:26Steven Bartlett?

  And you think that started because of your parents' separation and in this new context of these other siblings that were, felt maybe belonged more than?

• 8:35Speaker 01

  Yeah, I, I think, I think especially when, you know, both my parents remarried and they both really happily remarried and had gone on to have more children. And I love my parents and I love my stepparents and all of my siblings. But for me, I sometimes feel quite alone. And I think that is what propelled me in some of the issues I went on to have in later life. You know, for good and for bad, you know, I think there's been real benefits to those feelings. And it's made me very determined, um, very conscientious, but also it's made me very hard on myself and a bit of a perfectionist.

• 9:12Steven Bartlett?

  One of the things that I was quite surprised to read was this almost contradiction between you, you really looked up to your dad. You, I think you wrote in your book that you almost worshipped him, but then when he left, it was almost like there wasn't, there wasn't a reaction from you.

• 9:24Speaker 01

  Yeah. I know, it's so strange to me. It's hard for me that young, isn't it? Because your own memories are such little tiny snippets and you remember, and we all remember things. But for my dad, you know, I did, I put him on a pedestal and I still do, you know, he is my hero and he always will be. But yeah, he, he ran away and he ran away for his own reasons and as an adult completely understand that, you know, and he needed to do that. But yeah, I kind of shut down, I think. And I think I kind of, I have learned in my life, which has been really useful in my career, that I can have these incredibly intense emotional feelings. But they have to be buried.

• 10:09Speaker 01

  Not healthy, but helpful.

• 10:14Steven Bartlett?

  In the short term.

• 10:15Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah. But I think if you, if your knowledge, you know, you have the knowledge that you do that, I think that can help. In just maybe not doing it or, or trying to do it too much.

• 10:28Steven Bartlett?

  Is that the first time you, you kind of recall that those early years where you think you might have just buried a set of emotions? And not address them, that, that blocking out of it just to keep on keeping on.

• 10:39Speaker 01

  Yeah, I, I think, I, I think some of it is my personality, but I think some of it was circumstance that I kind of, I don't like to rock the boat. I don't want to cause people problems. I want to always make sure everybody's okay. And, and I think that's a lot to do with wokeness and now feeling unworthy potentially.

• 10:57Steven Bartlett?

  Um, just, just so I'm completely clear in my own mind, because I, I don't want to make any assumptions. That feeling of like not feeling worthiness came from that dysfunctional family dynamic. That's the first sort of hint you have of it.

• 11:09Speaker 01

  I, I think so. I think looking back, you know, I grew up in the seventeen eighties and for me, in the environment I was in at that time, it was really unusual that parents separated. All of my friendship group, they had, to me, what I saw as the happy family, you know, the family unit. And I longed for that and I didn't have that and it made me different. And obviously, you know, far forward to today, and I think it's probably rarer to have the family unit, you know, life has changed so much. So that's how it affected me at the time, it, it made me feel like, yeah, an outsider and a bit strange.

• 11:51Steven Bartlett?

  You moved to, um, Roncorn with your mother, which is, um, where the council estate is where you lived. Well, that area isn't a good area back then.

• 12:02Speaker 01

  Yeah, you know, I mean, Roncorn is, it's like a satellite town of Liverpool and lots of people, you know, it's kind of like overspill. And lots of people were out there and this, this particular estate that we, we got housed in was, it was built and it was, obviously there were so many families that needed to be housed, very much like today. And it was this, like, bizarre architecture. And we had these huge round windows and then we had houses about, we used to call them the Lego houses because they were like blue and yellow. It was, you know, I suppose at the time it, it seemed very forward thinking, but I think unfortunately, you know, it was, it was one of those environments of which there are still many

• 12:44Speaker 01

  um, where, you know, problems can occur because it's, it's kind of set up, there are, you know, there were just opportunities, I suppose, for people to be quite discreet and there was, you know, lots of people there who were struggling. And it was, I think it was knocked down, I think they started knocking it down in about nineteen ninety because it just kind of got, yeah, too rundown, I think.

• 13:08Steven Bartlett?

  When you, um, when you look back on your, your father's decision to leave, is there any feelings of like? I don't know, animosity towards that decision to, for him to leave your life. I understand the separation, but for him to then be absent seems like it was, from reading your book, the catalyst moment for other things to then happen. Has there ever been any animosity towards when you reflected on it as you grew up?

• 13:35Speaker 01

  No.

• 13:35Steven Bartlett?

  Really?

• 13:36Speaker 01

  No, there really hasn't. Because I think, you know, just that thing of being the kid and your life is your life. No, so it's just that you get told something like, oh, okay then. And I think when I became a parent, and I think about my daughter, and obviously I work away a lot, you know, but I just, yeah, it's weird. I don't think you really fully, I don't think you ever fully understand your parents, but I think you get a much better understanding of them when you become a parent, you know. But at the end of the day, I think as a child, you look up to these adults thinking, you know, they know how everything should be and how everything should be done. And then when you become an adult, you're like, no, I've fifteen a year and a half and I still haven't got a clue.

• 14:19Speaker 01

  So, and I still feel like a child, you know, and my mum was like, I'm still a teenager. And I was like, and I get it now, we're all just trying to figure it out throughout our lives, you know, I don't think we ever get to that age where we go, yeah, I've got it now.

• 14:35Steven Bartlett?

  Dancing seemed to be your first love as I was reading through your story. Where did that show up? Where did dancing come from?

• 14:42Speaker 01

  You know, I think like so many young kids, you have this moment where you maybe go to ballet or disco or whatever, the local, you know, it was in the, their local club or whatever. And I went not to ballet in town when I was so little, I can't even remember. But it must have struck a chord with me because when we moved to Roncon, it was, there was no one could afford for me to do dance classes. So I had this period of time without it. We moved to Widnes when I was, I think I was eight years old, and that's when I picked up dancing again. And I think I'd really like bugged my mum for years, oh, I don't think I want to go back, I want to go back. And I did sports at school, you know, I've always, I'm just very active. I'm, I think we're probably one of those kids who never stopped still.

• 15:25Speaker 01

  You know, I was always outside, I was always upside down or kicking a ball or something. And dancing for me, it was just a way of expressing myself and a freedom. And it was almost like a safe.

• 15:38Steven Bartlett?

  Safe place.

• 15:39Speaker 01

  I've had many performers and I'm I'm sure you've spoken to people who were like this, that I'm quite shy in certain aspects of my life, maybe like in a social aspect. And, you know, being at school, I kept my head down. I wasn't very academic. I did okay. But when I was dancing, when I was doing something creative and being able to express myself, I felt very comforted and free and alive. So, yeah, dancing school was where I really felt in my element.

• 16:08Steven Bartlett?

  So, so you you became a very obsessive dancer, practiser, very meticulous.

• 16:14Speaker 01

  Yeah, I think there's something about classical ballet on the training of that, which there's a lot of discipline and it just really works for me. And and even now, you know, I I have to have an awareness of this, that it's to have those parameters and to have that discipline makes me feel safe. I don't really know where that comes from. But I am I'm very hard on myself and I kind of, I think I'm a little bit of a workaholic because I feel like when I'm in a workspace and I'm being very disciplined, that I'm safe.

• 16:50Steven Bartlett?

  One might guess that if parameters and discipline and that that structure makes you feel safe, then there might have been a time where a lack of parameters made you feel unsafe or a lack of a foundation made you feel unsafe.

• 17:04Speaker 01

  Absolutely. I I'm sure. I'm sure. I think there was a lot of, you know, my mum's a performer. And, you know, it's it's so, it's so weird now because obviously I found myself in a similar position, but she'd be away an awful lot. But there'd be times when I'd be staying with other people or, you know, having babysitters. And, you know, maybe there was a little bit of instability felt there. And that would definitely make sense.

• 17:30Steven Bartlett?

  A bit of instability. Is this, are you talking to, talking about your nanny?

• 17:35Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, there was a little period of time where, yeah, my mum had employed someone to look after me, who, um.

• 17:44Speaker 01

  You know, she felt was was a great person for the world. But unfortunately, you know, the girl, she was maybe a little bit too young to take on that responsibility. And had kind of moved me out of our home and I'd moved in with with her mum. And yeah, it was all a little bit shady. But yeah, as soon as mum found out she'd put an end to it. But I think I was very quiet about it because I was so little, I think I was only about five. So I chose not to tell her, probably didn't want to rock the boat.

• 18:11Steven Bartlett?

  What were you telling her?

• 18:13Speaker 01

  Um, that I wasn't at home and that I wasn't being taken care of by the girl she'd employed to take care of me.

• 18:22Steven Bartlett?

  That feels like a

• 18:25Steven Bartlett?

  a a light way of saying something that is a little less light in reality.

• 18:30Speaker 01

  Well, you know, again, I was so young. It was, I don't think it's something I've got owned that I felt that's that was probably something that would affect you in a big way. But at the time, it was just my life.

• 18:42Steven Bartlett?

  You recite this moment of of just waiting for this per this person that was meant to be taking care of you. Um, just not showing up on many occasions and you having to wait outside and weeing your pants at one point because you were waiting outside so long.

• 18:56Speaker 01

  Mm hmm. Yeah, I remember getting back from school and we had these, you know, hot damn concrete steps up to the front door and no one was home and yeah, just busting for the toilet. And yeah, I worked myself and luckily the the neighbour came home and she took me in and kind of cleaned me up and yeah, so that's, I mean, again, I was so young, there's there's just these little flashes of memories of those things.

• 19:23Steven Bartlett?

  I think I think when you're when you're young, you maybe don't, it's not that those, I think about my own life, like, it's not that those things don't aren't impacting you, it's you don't, you're not really aware of the impact they're having or the stories that they're they're making you write about yourself and about your situation. Um, and then obviously, oftentimes it seems that we, including myself, then see the consequences of it. And in hindsight, have to peep sort of piece together where that came from. But that's, I mean, when I, when I read that, um, in your book, I was. I mean, that's that's almost like criminal negligence to treat a child in such a way. And I think about the your your the departure of your father, your mum then departing to go and pursue her career.

• 20:03Steven Bartlett?

  And then you you ultimately ending up on these steps, you know, urinating your underwear because of this negligent nanny. And that's, you know, that that's where I think, oh, that is, you know, that must have been formative in in to some to some degree.

• 20:18Speaker 01

  Yeah, I mean, you know, I'm a big believer in therapy and I've been having it for many years. And probably I only started to do that because of my time with the Spice Girls and how much the head fuck that was. But it's really interesting because you do look at your habits. And the things that you do or why you do them is so much of it comes back to your childhood.

• 20:42Steven Bartlett?

  Dancing was your first love. Um, you you become very disciplined at that and eventually off you go to um study in London. And that's where you find singing.

• 20:52Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 20:53Steven Bartlett?

  Which you hadn't, had you been doing it before?

• 20:55Speaker 01

  You know, because my mum was a singer and she had deals in the seventies, she had a couple of record deals with different bands. But, you know, it hadn't worked out the way she would have liked it to. Um, you know, she did great, but didn't get to those heights that all of us performers to get. So I just knew growing up, it's really, really hard. Working in the music industry is really difficult. So, you know, my young brain goes, okay, I want to be a pop star. But it's really hard. So I love dancing and I love singing. So theatre, because I loved musical theatre as well.

• 21:35Speaker 01

  I was from girls' college and I was pursuing that and I I'd sung a little bit, but I just, I never really had confidence in my voice. But there was this like weird thing of, it just gave me so much joy, truly more joy than dancing.

• 21:51Speaker 01

  I was in college, I was in my second year and we had these competitions that would happen every year. And I was singing a song and it was the first time I just had a moment with an audience where I, I just really felt this energy, this transaction between myself and men. And it was when I was singing and that was it for me. That was the moment. It was like, it is singing. That is it. That is what I have to do.

• 22:13Steven Bartlett?

  So eventually you, you and four hundred other young women respond to a advert in a magazine. What was that advert?

• 22:23Speaker 01

  Okay, so what I saw to the stage newspaper was when you leave performing arts college, you're an actor, a dancer, singer, whatever, you go for your auditions, the stage is where you find your auditions. If I myself had an audition, I didn't want to be a, handed a flyer for a girl band. And I'm like, that's it. And that's what I'm gonna do.

• 22:46Steven Bartlett?

  You, you get handed a flyer. A lot of people have been handed that flyer. Did you know then that you had, you said, that's it, that's what I want to do. Did you know then that you wanted to be in a girl band? Or did you mean, that's it, I'm gonna apply? And I think that's more befitting of what I, where I want to go?

• 23:03Speaker 01

  It's hard to know exactly because of what's happened since then.

• 23:07Steven Bartlett?

  Yeah, yeah, of course.

• 23:08Speaker 01

  But my, my telling of the story is, I mean, I just had a really strong feeling at that time that I was gonna, whatever this thing was, I was gonna be a part of it. And it was gonna be something incredible.

• 23:22Steven Bartlett?

  What did that flyer say?

• 23:24Speaker 01

  I think it said something like, are you eighteen to twenty four? I think it was like the wording of it, streetwise, can dance, sing, fun-loving, I don't know. But it was, it was just basically an audition, an open audition, anyone come along, put the girl band together, music management. And yeah, I went along to that audition.

• 23:49Steven Bartlett?

  And how did that go?

• 23:50Speaker 01

  It went well. I was recalled, we had to dance, and then we were recalled to sing. And then we were all sent away. And then we were, we were called back. But when we were called back, I was ill and I couldn't speak, let alone sing. So, yeah, I, I missed my first opportunity of being in this band.

• 24:10Steven Bartlett?

  You missed your first opportunity.

• 24:11Speaker 01

  Yeah, so I was really sick. I kept getting poditis. And I, yeah, I was really poorly when the recall happened. And so I begged my mum to call in. And just say, give Melanie a week, I got Betty should come and sing for you. But they were like, no, we've already chosen the girls, it's, I'm afraid. It's a nervous town. And there was lots of auditions that were announced. So it was like, oh, well, it wasn't meant to be. But then a couple of weeks after that, I got a call to say, somebody hasn't worked out, we'd like to see Melanie again. And then that was my chance to get in the band.

• 24:46Steven Bartlett?

  Christ, that is a pivotal phone call.

• 24:52Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's bizarre. Yeah. And I, you know, I think, I often think about the other girls who had potential, because that's still one of the five that everybody got to know. You know, there was, I think there were three girls from the, the beginning of the band being put together, who didn't end up being part of the final lineup of the Spice Girls.

• 25:15Steven Bartlett?

  It's funny, isn't it? When you think back, even being handed that flyer, you think, what path would I have walked potentially? If that person that day hadn't given me that flyer. It's a really strange thought, isn't it?

• 25:28Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's a sliding doors moment, isn't it? But yeah, I really, because often in interviews you'll be asked, oh, if you didn't do this, you do. And I'm like, I have no clue.

• 25:40Steven Bartlett?

  Funny. I think about it because I, there was an early, early point in my career where I got a phone call saying, um, a day before saying this 16 year old kid that was meant to be speaking at this event had dropped out last minute. And could I get to London? I had no money. I ended up bunking on the Megabus. This 16 year old kid had just sold his business for 30 million. So they needed like a young entrepreneur last minute. Found me because I was on some website at 3am, asked me to come. And that sent me off in my career. It was where I got my investors from, that one talk. I think if they hadn't asked me to be there, how would my life have been different? And the weird thought, which we never consider, is that maybe I would have been happier.

• 26:20Steven Bartlett?

  Have you ever, have you ever thought that?

• 26:23Speaker 01

  Often, often, yeah. You know, I, I wouldn't change my life. Obviously, I'm so proud of the things that I've achieved. And I have my incredible life and I absolutely do my passion, you know, that's my, I've just had a weekend of it, you know, three shows over the weekend. And I feel blessed, but with it has been some really tough time. And sometimes I do, I do think, wow, I think, did becoming famous ruin my life? Did it ruin me? Sometimes I question that.

• 27:01Steven Bartlett?

  It's a hard one to answer, isn't it?

• 27:03Speaker 01

  It really is.

• 27:03Steven Bartlett?

  Because you don't know the alternative, so you can't.

• 27:05Speaker 01

  Yeah, but I think the thing is, it's like, you know, it's always so important, isn't it? To remember, we're on a journey, right? What's the destination? The destination's death.

• 27:19Speaker 01

  Just enjoying this journey. And I remember the early days of the Spice Girls were the best. Before we released anything, we had the most fun because it was this excitement, what's going to happen? You know, what can it be? And then when it happened, it was incredible. But there's a lot of pressures that come along with it. So everything starts to change.

• 27:42Steven Bartlett?

  In those early years then, so before you've released any music, you stumbled around trying to find management for a while, right?

• 27:48Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 27:49Steven Bartlett?

  And then you recount stories in your book about some like dickheads that's made some just like awful comments to you. Can you tell me about that, that comment? Was it his name Ch- Chick?

• 27:58Speaker 01

  Oh, Chick, yeah. So he was a financial backer. So when we, we were first put together by a management team. And we were with them maybe for about a year. And Chick was, um, yeah, the financial backer of these original managers. And he'd commented on the size of my thighs. And which was something that really shook me. Because I, you know, I went to a performing arts college, which was predominantly a dancing college. And, you know, body image was an issue there. There was, there were girls with eating disorders. I'd, I'd been.

• 28:32Speaker 01

  You know, I'd been a witness to that in my life, but it never affected me personally. And, you know, I'm a teenager, probably a bit away, moving away from home, not really eating as well, going down the pub. And I was a little bit frustrated a little bit, but it was never something that really bothered me. It was just, well, I put back a little bit, lose a few pounds. But somebody actually commenting on the way I looked when I was going into Korea was so much of it is about how you look. Really affected me.

• 29:07Steven Bartlett?

  Did he make that comment in front of people?

• 29:09Speaker 01

  He made that comment in front of the other girls.

• 29:13Steven Bartlett?

  There's something about, there's something about, um, when you're trying to fit in, when someone points at something which makes you different or that might make you feel like you don't fit in. And from just listening to your early years where fitting in and feeling worthy was so important to you, for someone to then in a group of people where you, where you belong, those that, that band to say, this is why you don't fit essentially with that comment. I can't think of anything more, more hurtful for one's self-esteem.

• 29:42Speaker 01

  Especially the young person, because you know, think about it, I was probably nineteen at that point. Which every time you feel like you're all grown up and back college, going out into the big wide world. You're a child. You know, you're still, you've been so vulnerable.

• 29:57Steven Bartlett?

  Well, Victoria said to you that he had said comments to her about her weight as well or her appearance.

• 30:02Speaker 01

  Yeah. I think, you know, it was, it was very much at that time. I mean, you know, I went to dance college, so teachers would say, you need to lose weight, you know, what's that stomach doing there? I mean, I've spoken to dancers recently about the culture of that because, you know, um, recently there was a lot, there's people who are talked about in the gymnastics world. And there was definitely a culture within dance, which was very cruel and heartless and shaming, body shame, um, which is changing. But, you know, dance teachers, there are some really lovely nurturing ones out there, but some of the best dance teachers are humble.

• 30:42Speaker 01

  You know, I mean, carrot and the stick, isn't it? It's quite an old fashioned way, but it worked in some ways, but it's very damaging.

• 30:54Steven Bartlett?

  Did it change your behaviour, that, that comment from him? Did, did you notice a change in yourself at all after that?

• 30:59Speaker 01

  Definitely. That was the catalyst. That was the catalyst for me to, it was like a wake up call. It was like, if I want to do this, if I want to be a pop star, and you have, this was like the mentees as well. So it was, you know, body image was a very different thing there. Yeah. Thank God. There's so much more body, body positivity now, you know. But back then it was all about being stick thin. And I thought, wow, if I'm going to do this, I have to fit the mould. And so then that was, it was just, it was, it was a gradual thing, but it was like the eating and the exercising. And that's when, that's when it began. Yeah. From a comment like that, which he probably didn't give a second thought to, you know?

• 31:38Steven Bartlett?

  Isn't that crazy?

• 31:39Speaker 01

  It's crazy.

• 31:41Steven Bartlett?

  We never really appreciate that one comment can have such a profound impact and change someone's, um, the trajectory of their health or their wellbeing in such a significant way. Just one comment.

• 31:52Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 31:53Steven Bartlett?

  Just a few words.

• 31:54Speaker 01

  Yeah. You know, I think it's a bit of a trigger, isn't it? You know, so that happened. And I think obviously I was feeling vulnerable and it knocks your confidence. But then it's kind of, I think it's like a little chain of events that leads you down that road.

• 32:07Steven Bartlett?

  Right.

• 32:08Speaker 01

  You know? So that maybe was the little start of it.

• 32:12Steven Bartlett?

  The first domino to fall.

• 32:14Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah.

• 32:15Steven Bartlett?

  On that journey, trying to find new management, you, you stumbled across Simon Cowell as well, and he. He must hate when you recount this story because.

• 32:24Speaker 01

  It's so funny because he, this is the thing, right? And Brody remembers things differently because he remembers, he said yes, but we said no to him. So basically, we got to the point where we were going to record companies. We were looking for a record deal. So we'd let the original manager. And we had some demos, demo tapes, and we were going around meeting managers, meeting record labels. And most people were very positive. We got very positive reactions. But we remember Simon saying, he was interested. Um, yeah, but he, he recants it differently. So that's funny, isn't it? Clearly the hen, it was the nineties. He was a, a record company. Exactly. He wasn't known to the, to the wider public.

• 33:08Steven Bartlett?

  At this point, when you're going around trying to find management, how are you like providing for yourselves? How, where's the money coming from to sustain the band? And was there ever a moment where you thought, fuck this, I'm gonna.

• 33:18Speaker 01

  No, no, no, no, no. So when we were with our original management, they, they did give us like a little bit of good money. They put us up in a house. I think they gave us about sixty pounds a week, which, because we weren't paying for our accommodation at the time, you know, we could make ends meet. Um, but when we left them, I think I went to stay with a friend back in Sukka, where I'd been to college. So I was like staying in her spare room. And then there was a period of time where Melanie and Jerry were homeless. They were doing a little bit of sofa surfing. Yeah. And Eva went home to her mum's place in Finchley and Victoria was back at her mum's place, um, in Hertfordshire. So, yeah, we were, I think it was so lovely. This, I remember we'd go to Eva's mum's place.

• 34:00Speaker 01

  And she'd do loads of toast for us and muffin timbuktu and that would be breakfast. And, yeah, we, we were just, we never thought, it was never an option to give up. We were on this journey and we were going to make it happen.

• 34:13Steven Bartlett?

  How long was that period when, when, between you leaving your initial management, ultimately when you found Simon Fuller and, you know, that kind of, it began with Virgin. How long was that? How big was that gap?

• 34:25Speaker 01

  It, it wasn't as long as a year.

• 34:27Steven Bartlett?

  Okay.

• 34:27Speaker 01

  Beginning of the year. It was maybe about eight months or so. But we, we had, um, somebody who was, you know, very kindly looking after us. So what we'd done before we left our original management, we talked our original management into putting on a ship.

• 34:41Steven Bartlett?

  Okay.

• 34:42Speaker 01

  So we did that. And then we met some writers and producers and publishers. And we made some contact and we we kind of knew all that he would go very. But we just thought it's our thing. And we did that. And so we pursued that. And we were with Mark Fox, who was head of publishing at B and G at the time. And he kind of took us under his wing and would take us out for dinners and you've got us to meet people and that kind of got us on our road. Big success.

• 35:06Steven Bartlett?

  And then you met Simon Fuller.

• 35:08Speaker 01

  We did.

• 35:09Steven Bartlett?

  Talk to me about that and how that changed things.

• 35:11Speaker 01

  It was really interesting because we'd been. It's so funny, isn't it? We really did take matters into our own hands. And we talk about auditioning. Like, do you understand that? We were this unknown girl band. Everyone was telling us girl bands don't work. But we were out there going, right, is this manager good enough for us? And so we just, we just had the attitude that we've got something very special. And we're not going to undersell it or ourselves. And which is wonderful, you know, even if any of us had any doubts about it, we were like, no, this is the way it is. And I think that real determination, single mindedness is a really important part of succeeding. It's like, no, there's no doubt this will not fail. So we went out there and met these people.

• 35:51Speaker 01

  And Mark Fox is introducing us to some writers. We met Martin Biff, who he wrote wannabe and to become one, even forever. And we also met Absolute, who we wrote, who do you think you are too much with those guys? And they were managed by a guy called Pete. And he was in Simon's offices. And Simon heard the music and wanted to meet us. So he was the first person who approached us.

• 36:18Steven Bartlett?

  And eventually you signed with Virgin.

• 36:20Speaker 01

  Virgin Records.

• 36:21Steven Bartlett?

  Virgin Records, yeah.

• 36:22Speaker 01

  We we gave everyone the runaround and we got their money up and up and up and up as you could in those days. And we just loved Virgin. It was an incredible team. And we just had so much fun with them. They really shared our vision. Great A and R, actually new to, you know, obviously. Spice was such a great album, I was a Spice world. And so, yeah, it was like a match made in heaven.

• 36:46Steven Bartlett?

  You you recount that moment that Simon Fuller gave you your first um ten K cheque, I believe. And this is before you've released any music, right? So this is like a, is this a signing bonus?

• 36:57Speaker 01

  So we we got like, um, you get a advance when you, you know, when you look at, not so much these days, it's changed so much. But yeah, you you get the chance. And we hadn't seen like, what we would deem as proper money. And that was proper money. All them zeros.

• 37:15Steven Bartlett?

  What did you do with it?

• 37:17Speaker 01

  Um, I think, you know, I did with my first one.

• 37:20Steven Bartlett?

  No, I don't.

• 37:20Speaker 01

  You're not, okay. First thing I did.

• 37:23Steven Bartlett?

  I do know you went and got some Nike shoes.

• 37:26Speaker 01

  I mean, I, the good, two, I saw that cheque, right?

• 37:32Speaker 01

  I remember like being like on this kind of stairwell in this party, give me a cheque, ten thousand, I'm lucky.

• 37:40Speaker 01

  I went down to Oxon Street, Jedi Sports, and I bought the Nike Air Max that I've been like, yeah, I've had my eye on for weeks. I made it.

• 37:50Steven Bartlett?

  And what did you do with the rest? Just leave it in the bank?

• 37:52Speaker 01

  What did I do with the rest? I think I paid for some driving lesson. Um, yeah, I paid for my rent. And I mean, pretty much when you you get an advance, whether it's with the record company or publishing, it's your living expenses, you know, and you're a young artist and you've not released anything. That's kind of what it goes on.

• 38:12Steven Bartlett?

  How quickly did things move from the the point of getting that cheque on that stairwell to um wannabe, the first single, taking off? How how quickly was that?

• 38:25Speaker 01

  Gosh, you're you're really testing my memory now. I think, I want to say it was around Christmas time when we when we got the cheque. And then wannabe was released in July of ninety six. So maybe about six months.

• 38:42Steven Bartlett?

  Six months.

• 38:43Speaker 01

  It's not, it's not very long, is it?

• 38:45Steven Bartlett?

  It's not. And it's, it would, from what I read, the wannabe didn't take a long time to record either. For a single.

• 38:53Speaker 01

  It was definitely under half an hour. This, this, we kind of disagreed. Was it fifteen minutes? Was it twenty minutes? I mean, it was kind of thrown together. It was, was it ever going to be a song? We weren't sure. We were just kind of being silly. And Manbeef, who are incredible, just obviously made it into something which it went to number one in thirty seven countries. I mean, I don't think I even knew there was thirty seven countries.

• 39:21Steven Bartlett?

  That's crazy.

• 39:22Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 39:22Steven Bartlett?

  How, what, what, what, what does that feel like? So you release that single, then you start getting the, the, the murmurs, the noise, the, the world starts vibrating a little bit. What is that? What is that like?

• 39:33Speaker 01

  We had big, we probably had big ideas above our station before we should have done, but it helped us. Our original management were always like, don't get too big for your boots. You know, you haven't done anything yet. You need, you've got work to do. We're like, we know we've got work to do, but we've got something to do and we're going to make it happen. So we were always like, we felt we were very important and very special. And when other people started to think that too, one of you was released, it was still only days. But we released our album in Japan because at the time there was no internet. So artists would release music in different territories at different times.

• 40:16Speaker 01

  So you could kind of catch up with yourself with your promo.

• 40:19Steven Bartlett?

  Really?

• 40:19Speaker 01

  You were able to do it. I'd like to say you had time to do it, but hey, there's only seven days in a week. Our schedule was insane.

• 40:27Speaker 01

  But we started in Japan and one of you went to number one. Why have you were in Japan? So we didn't really get a sense of what was happening at home. And I think when we flew back to the UK, we were in Japan for our two weeks. When we, when we flew back, everything had changed. And that was it. When it was, when people really did start recognizing us in the street. Yeah, it all started to. Yeah, increase at that point.

• 40:53Steven Bartlett?

  And how did that feel at first?

• 40:55Speaker 01

  It was so exciting. It was kind of like, it's almost like you're putting it like in a catapult. You know, we've been, we're doing all this work, doing all this work. Oh, you know, and then you're, you're gone and you're just on this like, oh.

• 41:05Steven Bartlett?

  And it really was.

• 41:08Steven Bartlett?

  I, I was trying to make sure I had the dates right before because when I was looking at the, the, the amount of time from that first single to the number one albums and the meteoric global superstardom. It feels like this much time. I was like, I'm sure I've got the dates wrong. There must be like a decade like typo somewhere because it was just a couple of years.

• 41:31Speaker 01

  It's, you know, it's not even a fourteen years, right? One of his released in July nineteen ninety seven. Jeremy left the bar in the spring of ninety eight, where we were two shows short of our European leg of the tour. So it wasn't a full few years that the five were together doing the thing, you know, it's.

• 41:54Steven Bartlett?

  That's mad. I don't understand that.

• 41:56Speaker 01

  Right. We got together in ninety four. That's when we all first met. So together a couple of years beforehand, but yeah, by ninety eight, spring of ninety eight, Jeremy had gone. We went on to do our US leg of the tour as a full piece. We come back, Manly and Victoria had their babies. So obviously everything started to change about that point. It was a very different chapter in the lives of the Spice Girls at that point.

• 42:20Steven Bartlett?

  In my head, the Spice Girls were like two decades.

• 42:24Speaker 01

  We can't get them because.

• 42:25Steven Bartlett?

  Yeah, maybe that's why. Maybe the music lasted, obviously, but uh, but it, when I was reading that was like two years. I was like, what? How is that possible? How is?

• 42:33Speaker 01

  Two, two, um, two albums and a movie and a world tour. And yeah.

• 42:39Steven Bartlett?

  And all those MTV music videos that were playing in my house constantly because of my sister.

• 42:45Speaker 01

  Yeah, blame your sister.

• 42:47Steven Bartlett?

  But I listened to a couple of the odd CD when no one was in the house, but it's my podcast, we can edit that out. But when you think about why you were successful, because there were a lot of other girl bands at that time, and there were even other girl bands that had a similar fundamental message of empowerment. And as you call it girl power, I think you can't say that anymore. I think that's a bit of a, people don't like using me using the word girl. But girl power and feminism and female empowerment. Why in hindsight, do you think that you broke through?

• 43:19Steven Bartlett?

  And these others who were there before you and in some situations were much better placed. Why did you win?

• 43:26Speaker 01

  I think the stars were in alignment. Whatever the magic was with that dynamic, that we are so different, that we are quite strong in our individuality, that we made the decision to dress how we each felt comfortable. You know, girl bands before us had coordinated their look or had a certain look. And we realised that didn't work for us. We wanted to make pop music. We loved pop music. We love so many genres. But we felt like there was a space for a female band. You know, we kind of looked at bands like Take That and New Kids on the Box. And there was no girl bands doing that. And that's what we wanted to do.

• 44:11Speaker 01

  And I just think just all those little elements, a lot of them accidental. You know, our nicknames, which we never came up with. It wasn't a marketing idea. It was top of the pops magazine, Peter Levine, who was editor there at the time. Just thought it would be really fun to give us some nicknames. And they stuck and they became part of the brand, you know, and they still live on to this day. I mean, in the US, we're known mainly by our nicknames. So, yeah, the stars, like I say, it feels like they were just in alignment. It was meant to be. We had this idea that something was going to happen, but I think it was written in the stars.

• 44:49Steven Bartlett?

  Timing seems to be quite important in hindsight as well when you think about where the world was, was it ready for this message, was it ready for a band like this? Because you know, if you'd been maybe 10 years earlier, maybe it wouldn't have worked out, or 10 years later. But there's, it's funny, the case of timing, and then even when you think back to being handed that flyer, the timing of that, it's quite serendipitous and, you know, the butterfly effect of just these, these things linking up and can be quite spooky.

• 45:19Speaker 01

  Yeah, it really is. You know, you're right, at the time, so the 90s, it was a period of growth in the UK, you know, it was quite a positive time for the country. We'd just kind of come out of the grungy, this music, indie was big here, and you know, we can't, you know, say, oh, you know, you're welcome female empowerment, yes, we brought that. This was something that was bubbling and moving and changing, and we were just really fortunate that we hit it at a time when more and more people were getting on it, you know? And I think because, you know, people often talk about feminism with the Spice Girls, and it's like, we feel like, you know, we were young, we had a point to prove, we wanted

• 46:03Speaker 01

  to be a girl band for girls, and we wanted to talk about female empowerment and how girls could do whatever they wanted to do, no one was telling us we couldn't do something. And it enabled us to take feminism and make it more, you know, palatable to the younger audience. You know, we had fans of three years of age, a pop band or a music act, it never happened before, you know, and even now, you know, it's amazing, I do these shows, and I go out and I do show those stuff, and I do cover the Spice Girls songs, and there's so many young kids in the audience loving and rediscovering the Spice Girls, and it's incredible, it still patches their imagination.

• 46:42Steven Bartlett?

  That, that pressure though, people often talk about the pressure of being in a band, but the pressure of being in a girl band at that time, especially when even, you know, the media were very vicious, and there wasn't an awareness around the impact of words on mental wellbeing and how that can impact people, strikes me as being an even more difficult time than today of being in, well, we have social media now, which is also an exacerbating factor, but talk to me about the pressure of public scrutiny back then on young women.

• 47:18Speaker 01

  You're right, you know, the tabloid media were brutal. I think things have improved. Not that much. I mean, it is quite shocking now when I look back at articles from the nineties and nineties, just like the wording that was used. I think they're just a bit more sneaky with it now. You know, we're still saying the same things, but in a different way. But back then, it was just, I mean, I got called, we all got called, like terrible, horrible things. And as a young person, I think for anyone, and you're right, you know, the generation now have social media to deal with, which I think is equally as damaging, if not more so in many ways, because you can't escape it, can you? You know, your phone is,

• 48:00Speaker 01

  I wake up, first thing I do, lock my phone. And luckily now I have the skin of a rhino. So if anyone's saying anything negative about me, um, you know, I can, I can usually push it off. But yeah, back then, it was, I was challenging a lot, you know, who am I? These people are telling me I'm this thing. You know, they're criticizing me. I'm, I'm not talented enough, I'm not pretty enough, I'm stupid, I'm a loud mouth, I'm this. And it's like, who am I? Am I who I want to be? Am I who they tell me I am? Should I be who they want me to be? It's so confusing. And that was, I think, another,

• 48:42Speaker 01

  you know, we were talking about these different elements that got me, because I became very, very ill um, around two thousand. And, you know, the eating and the exercising and from chicks words and certain things that had happened, being photographed constantly, but being commented constantly was a big factor in that journey.

• 49:02Steven Bartlett?

  Your demeanor changed when I talk, when I mentioned that. It looked like it genuinely, I could, I could see how that, that phase of your life had impacted you just from the, the change in your.

• 49:15Speaker 01

  Quite much, um.

• 49:18Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's.

• 49:20Speaker 01

  I don't think anyone can ever, you know, it's really hard, you know, because I'm always in this place where. Does it?

• 49:30Speaker 01

  I'm always in this place where there's an element of guilt attached to my success. And I think that's exacerbated by people going, well, you're famous. You know, you put yourself in that position. And something I explore in the book is. You know, people who want to be famous, probably other people least want quite to deal with it because. Do you know, we're, we're looking for exception and love. And adoration and to be that vulnerable and to put yourself in that position only to be criticised is. It's a bad combination. And I think, you know, with the tablo media as it was back then.

• 50:14Speaker 01

  I mean, it's horrific. I mean, I've looked again recently because. You know, there's been certain reasons why I've been having to read old articles. So I lose. Shut it. I am, I mean, I don't want to jump forward too far. Good story, but I, I did suffer with. A couple of eating disorders, one of them being binge eating disorder. I was very depressed and I gained so weight that I've been underweight for a long, long time. And my body was just like, it was just a reaction. It was like, I am starved of any nourishment. Yeah, heal me, feed me. And, you know, obviously the big change in that made me gain weight. And it wasn't an enormous amount of weight.

• 50:59Speaker 01

  I think I went from a size, probably about a size, I suppose it just sounds like a lot if you say like a size six to a size fourteen. But then a size fourteen, I don't think it's even the average size of women in the UK. And they called me sumo space. I mean, how disgusting is that? So whoever this person is, I'm not gonna say it's a guy, and maybe it was, maybe it wasn't, the other probably was. But they thought it was appropriate to call a young woman who actually had been open because she kind of felt she had to be about her issues, and it was okay to call her sumo space. How sick is that? It's really fucked up, isn't it?

• 51:45Speaker 01

  I mean, worse things happened. And, you know, worse things happen in the world, but in this, in my world, at that time, when that happened, it was devastating.

• 51:58Steven Bartlett?

  Gosh, it's disgusting, isn't it?

• 52:00Speaker 01

  They couldn't do it now. They couldn't do that now. Like I say, they, it's all a bit of reading between the lines now, isn't it?

• 52:09Steven Bartlett?

  You, you were so young then as well. You were, you know, you're in your teen years, but you're still a child at that age. And as you say, learning who you are and what you mean, was there a moment where you realised that? So that first comment from Chick sends you, changes your behaviour. Was there a moment where you look back on and go, that was maybe this, not the second catalyst moment, but my behaviour took a really sharp turn there in terms of like, exercise and obsessing over food and fitting in?

• 52:36Speaker 01

  Yeah, I, I think it was, it was more when we were in the public eye, being photographed, doing lots of photo shoot. Um, yeah, I, you know, sort of it's linked to a need of control, isn't it? Cause things at that point felt very much out of our control, even though we, we, you know, we wanted to take this thing, you know, in our own hands and we wanted to make it happen. Um, I think because when things with the Spice Girls became uber successful, which was very quick after the release of Wanna Be, we're flying gone over the world. You're in a bubble, you're in this crazy bubble and it's great, you're having an amazing time. But you can't, you can't do things on your own terms anymore.

• 53:20Speaker 01

  But you can control what you put in your mouth. Or you can be in the gym where people don't leave you alone because I've done, don't bother with she's in the gym.

• 53:29Steven Bartlett?

  You're right about how you turned into a robot.

• 53:30Speaker 01

  Mm hmm.

• 53:32Steven Bartlett?

  What do you mean by a robot?

• 53:34Speaker 01

  Okay, so.

• 53:37Speaker 01

  I think I found it the only way I could survive the experience with by switching off my feelings. Um, I had to eat a certain way, I had to exercise a certain amount. And I couldn't not do it. So I had to switch off any of those like human emotions or any of those. Just even listening to my own body, this, there was a task that had to be done and I had to complete it. I'm robot, I must do it. And that was kind of my inner dialogue.

• 54:09Steven Bartlett?

  Can you recount this, um, this day of reciting some, reciting that well being on a running machine, which I found very, almost quite unnerving and quite strange, looking in the mirror and telling yourself that you're a robot.

• 54:20Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 54:21Steven Bartlett?

  That actually happened, you were looking in the.

• 54:24Speaker 01

  I, I can, I can completely remember being in the gym right now, I'm in the treadmill, kind of in the middle of a ride of treadmills. And yeah, that was, that was my way of coping. To that shut down, shut off. Just like, just this body is just a piece of machinery that will do what it has to do. And there was no, there was no choice. That was the thing, there was no choice. That was the way it had to be. And it wasn't until I had, which I, by, you know, I, I imagine was a break in two thousand when I just, you know, I hit that bottom and, and that's when I kind of fell off because the robot wasn't working anymore.

• 55:03Steven Bartlett?

  Have you, when you think back at that young girl, have you got, how do you feel about her? As an, as an, as an, you know, much more mature person now, how do you feel about that young girl that was going through that?

• 55:16Speaker 01

  It was terrible. I feel like, you know, it was

• 55:22Speaker 01

  the most incredible time of my life and the hardest. And as much as I enjoyed it, it was joyless, you know, because I hadn't seen quit. And I was dealing with what I had to deal with.

• 55:40Speaker 01

  And living regularly at the same time. It it was, it's a, it's a head fuck. Is what it is, because I wouldn't change anything. I changed that. I changed that I became the victim of an eating disorder and exercising obsessively. I wish that hadn't happened to me. So I could have fully enjoyed the wonderful things that happened to me one hundred percent. You know, life isn't perfect. There's always issues. There's always things we have to overcome. But it was fucking dramatic in how it went down.

• 56:12Steven Bartlett?

  What would you say to her if you could speak to her?

• 56:14Speaker 01

  I'd say sorry. I do. I should feel sorry. But I did that to her.

• 56:21Speaker 01

  Yeah, I think I've been angry as well. I think I've angered other people. But I think as an adult, we take this one ability for your actions. And, you know, I don't understand, bitter and twisted, but don't hear the word people.

• 56:37Speaker 01

  Or, you know, the tabloid media. I don't want to bitch and rant about the tabloid media, but, you know, they probably need to be bitched and ranted about. Because they've been disgraced. And.

• 56:49Speaker 01

  But, yeah, I just, I, I, I feel sorry. I feel regretful.

• 56:54Steven Bartlett?

  So what would you say sorry to her for?

• 56:57Speaker 01

  The point, true. I think her truth actually. And, and it feels like.

• 57:04Speaker 01

  I can miss, I have a guilt attached to what I was representing. But what was really going on behind her stories. And you know what? I'm such an honest person. I can't, I can't lie. I'm stoned by the lying game. I, I feel so dishonest if I'm not bearing myself to people. But I was living on it. And that's probably the hardest part of it.

• 57:28Steven Bartlett?

  That, um, that secret, the secret you're referring to is the eating disorder and that obsessive exercising, right? The secret you were keeping. When you say, um, eating disorder, are you referring to the binge eating disorder that, that was, did that come after?

• 57:42Speaker 01

  It was a lady, yeah.

• 57:43Steven Bartlett?

  Okay.

• 57:43Speaker 01

  So, you know, and the, the weird thing is actually, as you, as you put it like that, it's like, I was in denial for a while. Swallow. You know, because there is a little voice that goes. You can't carry on like this. But then the other votes, the bigger voice goes, you haven't got a choice. And the first reason to sort of, I I started to um just eat less, small portions. And then I started to eliminate food groups um to a point because I was terrified of fat. And then I was terrified of carbs. And then I wouldn't eat a banana because it's got too much sugar in it. I mean, I do not even know how I survived. And I think often now I get so exhausted. I think it's probably two years of being malnourished.

• 58:29Speaker 01

  Um, I lived on fruit and vegetables for about two years.

• 58:34Speaker 01

  And I was underweight, my period stopped. You know, I kind of, I've always wanted to be a monk. But I had no choice but to live this life I was living, and I was jeopardising the chance of being a monk. We, how crazy is that?

• 58:50Speaker 01

  Just this compulsion.

• 58:53Steven Bartlett?

  And then it all comes to a head in two thousand when then.

• 58:56Speaker 01

  Yeah. I, I think like a lot of, and I'm going to say that of women, but a lot of people

• 59:04Speaker 01

  really hate their bodies. You know, we, oh, I hate this. Or we used to get asked in interviews. But you know, what's what's your favorite, they wonder what you call them, like your favorite attribute or whatever. You know, what what do you, what do you like least about yourself? You know, what? Stupid fucking questions. Why would you, why would you ever say, never be negative in an interview? Never pull people towards you, or what are they going to do? You do that to me? Oh, I hate my, my short stubby legs. You know, really just really focus on them. Um. But yeah, I I I hated myself. I was never good enough. Nothing's good enough. Women do this all the time. We pull ourselves apart, you know. I'm not funny enough. I'm not clever enough. I'm not pretty enough. I'm not sexy enough. All these things.

• 59:48Speaker 01

  I mean, fuck, this body is amazing. And I spent all of those years just hating it because it wasn't what I wanted it to be. But you are not your body. You know, I was talking to this weekend, I I lost another sibling a few years ago. And we were talking about when people pass and you know, and sadly he died of cancer. And we know in the last ages, people with cancer, it's it's awful to see them in that way. But I don't remember him in that way. I remember the essence of him. I remember how funny he was and how naughty he was and and it's not, I don't, I don't remember anything physical. You know, and it's just, we just need to get away from this physical being.

• 1:00:32Speaker 01

  What defines us, what defines us? We are so much more than that. And I've completely forgotten what the question was, but I just got caught.

• 1:00:41Steven Bartlett?

  No, no, it's so, it's so powerful and um it was linked to it all, all of that sort of suppression and a self abandonment coming to a head in twenty twenty two thousand.

• 1:00:52Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, so exactly. And I'd, I'd spent years like trying to make myself small, you know, fit into the form that I should be to be doing the thing that I'm doing. And it was killing me. And and this is why I started talking about my body, because I'm so grateful to my body. Because it took over and it's and it said to me, we can't do this anymore. You're not doing this anymore. We are taking the control away from you. And it was hard because from being very restrictive with my eating and being anorexic, I started binge eating. Because my body, it couldn't cope anymore. It wasn't getting enough fuel.

• 1:01:34Speaker 01

  And I was depressed. I didn't know I was depressed. I had nowhere. I that never even crossed my mind that I had depression. I just knew I'd lost control over my eating and freaked me out because it was all about the way I look. You know, it was, it it was vanity. I was like, but I'm eating, I'm eating loads. And, you know, I feel very grateful. I was never bulimic. I tried. I couldn't make myself sick. And I'm so grateful for that because I know it's a really difficult illness to recover from.

• 1:02:06Speaker 01

  So I was getting bigger and bigger and bigger because I was eating more and more and more. And and then that was, it was the vanity that took me to the doctors as well as being really fucking scared. Because I didn't know what was going on and I was struggling to get out of bed. And that was when I was diagnosed with depression and that was my first step on emotional recovery.

• 1:02:25Steven Bartlett?

  You go to that doctor who ultimately diagnoses you with depression. Can you remember that day vividly?

• 1:02:32Speaker 01

  I do, I really do. I remember sitting opposite him, his desk. And I think I said everything out loud for the first time about my eating, about crying and not being able to do that. I mean, I didn't have the words. I didn't know what anxiety was. I didn't know what depression was. So.

• 1:02:48Steven Bartlett?

  What did you say to him? Just because I want to get a colour of what the symptoms were that you hadn't yourself pinpointed as.

• 1:02:54Speaker 01

  Well, I was, I was tired all the time. I couldn't control my eating. I mean, I was, I, I told that myself because sometimes I'd catch myself mid binge. It was so, it was such a compulsive thing. I'd like, yeah, I'd just be in the middle of just eating and I'd be like. You know, and anyone, and there's certainly I know lots of people have these issues. It's like a cycle because you do it and then you hate yourself. So you do it again and then you, you just, it just keeps, you know, getting worse and worse. And to the point where I had to go to the doctor, but I felt like I was losing my mind. I felt like I was actually going mad. And yeah, and I didn't have the right words and I know they are not the right words that we use today, but those were the words I had.

• 1:03:38Speaker 01

  And yeah, and he said, but first of all, we have to, to deal with your depression. And I'm like this weight which just lifted from my shoulders because it was like, oh, we're going to a name. It's something that can be treated. It's something you can recover from. And that was the beginning of a very, very long journey.

• 1:04:00Steven Bartlett?

  Very, very long journey.

• 1:04:03Speaker 01

  I think I've still had that journey, to be honest. I don't think, I think depression is always in it. It's always waiting in the wings to leave me. But it is for me, anyway. And but I'm quite good at just keeping it at bay. You learn the tricks and the tools to keep it at bay.

• 1:04:25Steven Bartlett?

  You describe, I believe, the fear of that looming depression or, you know, I guess the fear of going back to former ways or finding yourself in that situation has been quite a scary thing. Is it a scary thing? Something you're scared of? I don't want to mischaracterise your words there, but is it something that sits at the back of your mind in terms of you know that? You fear there might be that it's like a catalyst. There could be one thing that could.

• 1:04:56Speaker 01

  Yeah, the thing that I fear the most is depression.

• 1:05:01Speaker 01

  Because, you know, I've always felt like there's a fire in my belly and even, you know, mostly at my lowest of points, I can go, this will pass, we can do this. But there were times within my depression where I had doubted that.

• 1:05:23Speaker 01

  And yeah, that's my fear.

• 1:05:37Speaker 01

  My biggest fear is it's that, you know, really overwhelming depression where you doubt if you can make it through the undead.

• 1:05:49Steven Bartlett?

  Do you have those moments post mainly where you didn't think you'd be, there was doubt whether you'd be able to make it through a moment? Is this post leaving the Spice Girls predominantly or was there moments throughout the experience where?

• 1:06:00Speaker 01

  It's never, we've never officially got up with the Spice Girls.

• 1:06:03Steven Bartlett?

  Oh, really?

• 1:06:03Speaker 01

  Yeah, we topped that decision because there was so much.

• 1:06:09Speaker 01

  Press, you know, interest in us at the time. So, you know, I'm just really, really struggling. We were working on Forever, which is the third album as a full piece without Jerry. And I'd worked on my son, I recorded and I was having a really, really hard time and it was too much. I found the environment too much and I think the girls knew me too well. You know, I was, I was dealing with these demons, these in inner demons and they, they could just read me like a book. And I just didn't want to be in their company because I had to deal with it myself, you know? So I, I did want to leave the band, but we, we took the decision to never officially split up because we, because we didn't want the press, press intrusion. We were ten five.

• 1:06:52Speaker 01

  It was because we knew, I mean, I slipped up once on a TV show. I did a show with Frank Skinner. And I used past tense. I said, when I was a Spice Girl, whatever the wording I used was. And the press jumped on it and there was camera crews up there, half in. Frigging. And they chased me down the road and yeah, and it was just like, we couldn't, none of us could face. And the, you know, the beauty of that is now, we kind of feel like, at the time, we needed separation. You know, we'd been like this, our lives had been so intertwined that we needed that space. But now we've had time to do that and grow and become individuals and mums and, and have these separate lives.

• 1:07:33Speaker 01

  We can come back together and we, we really enjoy each other and respect each other. So we quite like that. We've never split up. You know. Well, we've been always the Spice Girls. When people say former Spice, I'm a former Spice Girl. I am a Spice Girl and we were always all these Spice Girls. Even Tik Tok, which didn't get out seriously, Tumati, she's still a very, very important part of that show.

• 1:07:58Steven Bartlett?

  Twenty nineteen, you're, you're, you know.

• 1:08:02Steven Bartlett?

  Your account in your book about how coming back together was actually a really pleasant experience and it taught you a lot about your previous time together in the Spice Girls. But let's start with the point about Victoria then. A lot was written about that. Obviously, when press do interviews, they're trying to twist your words and find something, wow, how can we turn them against each other? Like, that's what, that's the game, right?

• 1:08:20Steven Bartlett?

  So how did you all feel when, you know, you knew that Victoria wasn't coming back to the group and you were going to be doing it as a four?

• 1:08:28Speaker 01

  Yeah, there was a few feelings about that because obviously we were gutted.

• 1:08:33Steven Bartlett?

  But you would be.

• 1:08:33Speaker 01

  Today, totally wanted that. And we were scared because we thought, shit, are people going to want us as a four piece? You know, in a different configuration. And the thing is, you know, let's not, you know, well, let's be honest here. Victoria is a huge international icon. You know, she has gone on to be something in her own place, you know, in the fashion world, in the world of celebrity. She's much bigger than the others of us individually. I don't think anything's as big as the Spice Girls, you know, we all feel that. But without her, it's like, you're going to take us seriously. So, yeah, so there was, there was different feelings around it. The wonderful thing about it was she was very supportive and it was

• 1:09:18Speaker 01

  really important for us to make sure she was, so she was involved creatively, you know, we wanted her to sign everything off, we wanted her to know effectively what we were going to do. And it was such an incredible experience. It's not actually part of it anyway.

• 1:09:31Steven Bartlett?

  Why didn't you, I didn't, I missed the story at that time, but why didn't she want to be, what was her public statement? What was the reason?

• 1:09:38Speaker 01

  Public statement is because of family and commitment.

• 1:09:41Steven Bartlett?

  Okay.

• 1:09:41Speaker 01

  Which is completely, you know, standable. But I think, you know, on a more personal level, and I think this has been said, I don't think she'd mind me saying, when we did the lip pics in 2012.

• 1:09:54Steven Bartlett?

  Yeah.

• 1:09:54Speaker 01

  She had a really hard time.

• 1:09:56Steven Bartlett?

  Okay.

• 1:09:56Speaker 01

  It was, she was petrified. I mean, we were all bloody petrified, but to the point where it's worth it.

• 1:10:02Steven Bartlett?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 1:10:03Speaker 01

  But I think it was so, you know, it was, you had a lot of anxiety in our performance that she was like, you know, I guess I'm pulling my pants and she's there.

• 1:10:11Steven Bartlett?

  True.

• 1:10:11Speaker 01

  Um, away. So, yeah, so we totally, you know, we respected her decision.

• 1:10:16Steven Bartlett?

  Yeah.

• 1:10:17Speaker 01

  And, but yeah, we're still sad about it. But you know what? We went on to have. The most successful tour we've ever done, and you know, with her blessing, sadly without her. But we did it and it was incredible and it really is truly some of my happiest Spice Girls memories.

• 1:10:35Steven Bartlett?

  One of the things that I wish I'd asked Liam Payne when I spoke to him about One Direction and the the group dynamic. And then what happens when the group are no longer making music at the time? I don't want to say split up because that is a bit loaded, but when they're no longer together is um. What what happens in the outside world in the media is people then start comparing the the like the post band successes. And I think this can be very, very toxic because you're then being compared against, in the case of like One Direction, these four, five other, four other individuals. You're then sort of measured, your life then becomes measured against who did the best after. It was measured during, as you talk about in magazines, where they said, who is the hottest and who is the this?

• 1:11:17Steven Bartlett?

  Yeah, exactly. But then post, you've got, you know, as it relates to One Direction, you've got Harry Styles, who is just, you know. Untouchable.

• 1:11:28Steven Bartlett?

  And I and I and I wonder like, no matter how how amazing the objective successes of like another member, are they they're always compared to this person? How true is that in your case?

• 1:11:38Speaker 01

  Um, yeah, it's true. It's so hard. It's so hard to go on and and become a solo artist because you like. This is what like really drives me mad about the media, right? They tell you things you already know.

• 1:11:55Speaker 01

  It's like, you know, just in you, they just want the Spice Girls, I know. And but no, I mean, that isn't totally true. But yeah, yeah, you're right. It's really, really hard because you get compared so much within the band and then post the band. But it's like, you know, you you have you have to have this logical brain, don't you, where you go? How do we measure success? You know, for me, the areas of my life, I am so happy and so successful. And then there's, they need a bit of work. But I think as a, as a fully grown adult, you have to go, stop comparing yourself. You know, other people might want to do it, but you can't do it. We all do it. We all look at Instagram, we go, that works amazing. Bullshit. No one's life is amazing.

• 1:12:41Speaker 01

  We're going on. So I, I think, yeah, it's just, we go off, don't we, on a little tangent sometimes. But it's just to just come back home and yeah, concentrate on the important things.

• 1:12:51Steven Bartlett?

  When you, when you went on that, the reunion tour, what did you learn about your former experience from that tour?

• 1:12:59Speaker 01

  I learned it was a shame that we couldn't fully appreciate it at the time. Because, and you're never going to change history and you're never going to change the way we're going forward. Because it's so chaotic and new at the time, that you'll just be a little bit subjugated. You know, you're just kind of, it's going through emotions. You know, I meet younger artists now, like I've been lucky enough to meet Mia Lish a few times. And I, I can, I, I'll relate to her so much. I think I, I saw her perform at Shakesh Bush Empire. And she was already way too big to be playing that incredible venue. And all these predominantly teenage girls were screaming for her, screaming at her.

• 1:13:42Speaker 01

  And singing her songs. And it just made me go back to Spice Girls shows. I know she's very different as an artist. But I just kind of felt this kinship with her. And so at times I just look at her and I kind of feel like I, I know what she's feeling. And what she's going through. So whenever I have the opportunity to see her, I just kind of have this little connect with her and it's just like.

• 1:14:03Steven Bartlett?

  Why does that make you emotional?

• 1:14:06Speaker 01

  Because this incredible thing happens to you and it's hard to appreciate it because it's so intense, you know?

• 1:14:15Steven Bartlett?

  Because that experience was so tumultuous for you, because there were so many difficulties. As you approached the reunion, was there fear of, you know, the former issues as well as the good times, but also the bad times coming with that?

• 1:14:30Speaker 01

  Always. Whenever us girls get together, there's little triggers, you know, and I'm scared. But I have to face them because, you know, I've learned through experience of the other things I've gone on to do with the girls. We reunited in two thousand and seven, Olympics, twenty nineteen, faced the fear and actually beautiful things happened. So, yeah, and you know, we're much more mindful of each other now as well because, you know, everyone had their shit to deal with, you know, it wasn't paying so many for anyone.

• 1:14:57Steven Bartlett?

  Was that too much of the reason you were inspired to write your book?

• 1:15:01Speaker 01

  It totally was. I mean, sometimes I still question it. I'm still questioning and get as sweet. I just felt, I started to be like, my story's a kind of all, you know, I'm just, I'm just a girl, I'm a normal girl from the northwest, working class background, and I have achieved my dreams and I go on to work in this industry, work as an international artist. I mean, it blows my mind when I think about what I've achieved, what I've continued to go on to do. And I want to inspire people. And I've, gosh, I've had hard times, you know, I've had times when I've thought, I don't know if I can carry on. I don't know if I

• 1:15:43Speaker 01

  can carry on in this industry. I don't know if I can carry on in this life. But I've done it. And, and I just really hope that people can read this book and have a laugh. You know, there's been some funny bits, there's some great memories, but being inspired and I also find some hope within it. Because, you know, I have, I, I personally, for me, feel like I've been at rock bottom at a time, but I've worked my way up back up to like feeling okay. I'm feeling great sometimes. So, yeah, I know, I know people, lots of people struggle with some of their issues, that's what I do.

• 1:16:22Steven Bartlett?

  Why, what stops you from writing this book sooner?

• 1:16:25Speaker 01

  Fear, a bit scared, a bit scared to go back to those times. I knew it was going to be hard. It was actually harder than.

• 1:16:34Speaker 01

  And.

• 1:16:35Steven Bartlett?

  Really?

• 1:16:35Speaker 01

  Yeah, and recording the audio book, which is something I definitely wanted to do. That's a lot. It's a lot because I think to write those words is one thing, but then to speak them is something else. And you can be interviewed and talk about these situations, but kind of go through it kind of, I'm like, please, is really, really draining. Yeah.

• 1:16:58Steven Bartlett?

  You've just been right, um, reading the audio book out in a studio. You sit there alone in these, um, audio book recordings in a small room. Is that, is that same experience? And you read through this, this book that you've just written. Um. What was the hardest part for you to read?

• 1:17:16Speaker 01

  I'm only halfway through.

• 1:17:17Steven Bartlett?

  Okay.

• 1:17:18Speaker 01

  I haven't even got through really tough, but yeah. Um, but you know what's weird? I wonder if you're a fan of this too. Sometimes it's the things you don't expect to get you, get you. I got really upset the other day when I started reading a part, I, I probably remember which bit it was, but it really surprised me. Cause I know there's like chapter fourteen, is it like ingrained in my brain, chapter fourteen. And is when I talk about my eating disorders and, and depression and, and that the really lowest point and of my life.

• 1:17:51Speaker 01

  I know that's going to be hard to read. I've not got there yet. And but. Yeah, some of the other points have, have been quite emotional.

• 1:17:59Steven Bartlett?

  And is that, is that part hard to read and recount now because, because of those feelings you described earlier, where you have the sadness for that younger version of yourself and you, you also said anger. Is that why it's hard to, to even read it out now?

• 1:18:13Speaker 01

  Can you do that? Curious to see how I'm going to do on chapter fourteen. Because I think I've built up like this resilience to it as well. Because I, I've spoken quite openly in the media about depression and eating disorders. And I actually started talking about it probably before I was ready. Because at the time I, I felt like, you know, being a Spice Girl, it felt like it was your duty that our lives were in the public domain. And it was such a weird time because there were so many things going on, you know, there was so much exposed about myself and other people in in the entertainment industry. And and there's a phone hacking. There were so many

• 1:18:56Speaker 01

  secrets and things that probably would never have made the papers, but you know, they were listening to people's messages. We know that this is a fact.

• 1:19:05Speaker 01

  So, yeah, there was this, I felt I had to spill my guts and I was so very vulnerable and I still feel evil. You know, I wasn't anywhere near on the road to recovery, you know, it was just the very beginning for me. So I've I've had to build up the this wall around me. So I I wonder whether I can speak about that now. And it not affect me emotionally. I'm curious to see.

• 1:19:31Steven Bartlett?

  Is that all a good thing?

• 1:19:34Speaker 01

  I think it's a necessary thing, you know.

• 1:19:38Speaker 01

  Yeah, I think some of the other points in the book, you know, talking about my childhood and my parents. And they're quite new things, not really discussed them ever before. And so they're quite hard. And also it affected the people. That's what's been held about this book. It's not just about, that's like fame, right? Fame just doesn't happen to you, does it? It happens to everybody around you. And they didn't ask for it. So and then the guilt kicks in again. There's a lot of guilt attached to fame, I think.

• 1:20:08Steven Bartlett?

  Where is your line in terms of sharing stuff? This is something that I always think about. Obviously, I have a podcast, so I talk a lot about my childhood and all the things that happened. And I've always wondered, you know, there's being transparent and honest because it will help others that have gone through that experience. And that's really important. That's how we all learn. You saying one thing can quite literally save lives. But where is your personal line in terms of? Because you kind of alluded to it there, where there's things where you just can't, maybe it's not the right time or.

• 1:20:38Speaker 01

  I think, you know, what's really important with this book is it's my story and it's in my words and it's my perspective. And I think the line for me is, you know, it's not my place to tell other people's stories. And, you know, to the point of hurting other people. That that's iconic. I I couldn't live with myself. Um. But I know sometimes we hurt people unintentionally.

• 1:21:05Steven Bartlett?

  Hmm.

• 1:21:05Speaker 01

  Now, so that's probably my sheer around the book coming down now. Um. It's not my intention to hurt anybody. I've tried to be very careful. Um. But obviously, like, your parents reading, how you feel about things, you know, that's that's gonna hurt.

• 1:21:19Steven Bartlett?

  Hmm. When one of the things as well that fascinated me was um your relationship with with money. You know, um, and this this suggestion that you had almost guilt for your success. I've heard that a few times on this on this um podcast and it always seems to come from people that have a working class background. Can you tell me about that and you're from your perspective?

• 1:21:44Speaker 01

  I think for me, it's, you know, I all around me, all of my family, all of my friends' families. Everybody works really hard, you know, really hard. Whatever, you know, world state working, it could be manual labour, it can be, you know, it can be my dad. God bless him, he's in his seventies, he's sort of travelling around the world like a young man and doing this crazy job, doing super long hours. And, you know, that my dad lost his job, but it's, you know, it's a necessity to work that hard to put food on the table, to pay the bills, right? I my my work can be hard, it can be gruelling. But I go on stage and I sing and it's my passion and I'm very lucky to do it.

• 1:22:29Speaker 01

  And sometimes I could maybe earn in a day what people in my family might earn in a year, you know? And I took this guilt as host.

• 1:22:38Steven Bartlett?

  When um when you think about the the thing that made you successful the first time around, you you talk about it a lot that and I talk about it as well, that insecurities were one of my biggest drivers. They were this, you know, you're you're trying to fill some kind of void and you end up, it ends up resulting in perfectionism and overworking and all those things. How do you control that sort of those inner insecurities that?

• 1:23:00Steven Bartlett?

  I could probably ask this question in a different way. Those things that drove you then, which ultimately are quite unhealthy and toxic and end up creating a lack of balance in one's life. How do you stop those things driving you now? How do you stop being toxic driven?

• 1:23:17Speaker 01

  Do you know what? I think had to be aged as that for you because you're so exhausted.

• 1:23:21Steven Bartlett?

  Right, yeah.

• 1:23:22Speaker 01

  We've got the energy.

• 1:23:23Steven Bartlett?

  You're right.

• 1:23:24Speaker 01

  Could be that, you know, I, I think the thing is, you know, we live in a, and, and among now. So I have a different set of priorities. I love my work. Sometimes I get the balance completely wrong. You know, I'm with the book and everything. My workload is huge right now. It's the school holidays, you know, I'm not around enough for my daughter. So it's eating me up inside. But you know, I, I will find the time and we've got holiday funded. And I, I think it's just kind of, you're running from past mistakes. That, you know, be driven, but not to the point where it's detrimental. The biggest mistake I made as a young person was I believed other people knew better than I did. No one knows better than you about you. Just listen. And it's so

• 1:24:08Speaker 01

  beautiful. I was at a show this weekend with like a million people in front of me. And, and I just look at them and I just think, they're all into the essence of you. You know, because it, because I think when you're at kiddies, and obviously people have different circumstances, but this essence of you has all the answers. It's all you need, you know, and then life comes in and just like, makes it all a bit out of balance. So I just like really encourage young people to just really, you know, trust their instinct.

• 1:24:36Steven Bartlett?

  I'm really, I've been really, I've been thinking a lot about that lately. I've been thinking, because when I go up on stage and I try and give people advice, you're sometimes, people will often sometimes over complicate the answer. But as I've like, looked back at my own life and what I'm hearing from you as well is that I, I knew the answer the whole time, but there was a narrative that persuaded me to ignore it. So sometimes that can be your. Your immigrant parents telling you to go and become a doctor or a lawyer when you really wanna just dance. And so you you kind of place their narrative o- over the top of your own feeling. And so and then the other one can sometimes be social media, which tells you that you should be an X or a Y or a Z. But inside of you, I I think it's really liberating to consider that you might already have all the answers if you just listened and tuned

• 1:25:21Steven Bartlett?

  out these other voices.

• 1:25:23Speaker 01

  Easier said than done.

• 1:25:24Steven Bartlett?

  Super easier said than done. Almost impossible.

• 1:25:26Speaker 01

  Yeah. And I think the thing is as well, it's like, because you think, it can't be that. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 1:25:33Steven Bartlett?

  Maybe, maybe, maybe, especially if the answer is happiness. If it is ma- material success, then maybe you should go and be a doctor. But if it is happiness, which I think is the answer in in the long term, if you don't wanna avoid a midlife crisis when you're in your doctor's suit at fourteen, you go, what the fuck am I doing here, whatever. And maybe that is the approach to take.

• 1:25:54Speaker 01

  But.

• 1:25:54Steven Bartlett?

  Yeah.

• 1:25:55Speaker 01

  Someone say, life can be a series of chapters, right? So what's right at one point, might change.

• 1:26:02Steven Bartlett?

  Who?

• 1:26:03Speaker 01

  So I think that's, you know, that is the thing as well. It's like, okay, a decision might be made and you're following a path. And then at some point, you're like, you know what, this isn't working for me anymore. So you can change. I think that's, I think that's really powerful to know. I mean, it's fucking scary. And not everybody has the luxury of just going, okay, I'm gonna change my culture, handle it, move, have someone who can change, you know, move, put you whatever. But I think what's powerful is, actually, you have the power.

• 1:26:29Steven Bartlett?

  Who?

• 1:26:30Speaker 01

  You just gotta find a way to do it.

• 1:26:31Steven Bartlett?

  Yeah.

• 1:26:32Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:26:32Steven Bartlett?

  The practical way to. I think that's the most important thing. Um, one of the other things I wanted to ask you about is, when I reflect on my own early upbringing with my parents and the and the model of love that they taught me, not all great. What impact did the model of relationships and the separation of your parents have on your own model of of a relationship and love, if any?

• 1:26:55Speaker 01

  I think the biggest impact about my my parents' relationship and breakdown of their relationship and my childhood as hell me is that I yearn for a family.

• 1:27:07Steven Bartlett?

  Right.

• 1:27:08Speaker 01

  I yearn for that security. Um, and I I have a little girl, I'm not with her dad. And that was really difficult because I didn't want from my little girl what had happened to me. And so, yeah, I think I'm always, I'm always looking for that, that environment that I don't feel like I've ever really had.

• 1:27:31Steven Bartlett?

  We have got one last question for you. So the last guest asks a question for the next guest, but they don't know who they're asking the question to. So they write a question in the book. I don't see it on my mother's life. I don't see it until I open the book.

• 1:27:46Steven Bartlett?

  That was the last question. Okay, here we go.

• 1:27:52Steven Bartlett?

  Interesting.

• 1:27:58Steven Bartlett?

  Hmm.

• 1:28:06Steven Bartlett?

  This is interesting because it's a question we've, we've been asked once before. So it's interesting that it's come up twice. What is a pain that you enjoy having?

• 1:28:18Speaker 01

  Oh, okay. This is interesting. And I've had a little emotional turmoil recently. And I was in the gym and I was stretching to the point where it hurts, but it felt good. And I think sometimes, and this is a little bit self calming, I think, like physical pain sometimes will alleviate, like, you know, when I'm exercising to the point of it hurting can help with my emotional pain. Yeah, exercise is a really interesting thing because, you know, obviously I have a a difficult relationship with it in a sense, because I did, used to exercise extensively, which I don't anymore, but I do exercise a lot and I do it for my head

• 1:29:04Speaker 01

  more so than my body at times, you know, it's really, really important to me, but I can feel so low and so tired and so lethargic and I can go to the gym, I'm a changed person. You know, it's, it's, it's like, it's a miracle drug, right?

• 1:29:20Steven Bartlett?

  Hmm.

• 1:29:20Speaker 01

  It's the endorphins, the serotonin that's produced, whatever happens, it's like when people say to me, oh, you know, how do you encourage people to do exercise? And it's like, listen, just go, no pressure. Say I'll do ten, fifteen minutes and I bet you you're there for an hour.

• 1:29:37Steven Bartlett?

  I completely agree. That is, when I was first, when that first, when that question first came into this book, my immediate response was exercise. And I've never really thought, I, I was always curious as to whether there was an element of like escapism there as well. And I, I'm always conscious about escaping issues or, um, and then when you refrained, when you described it then as you, you're going through an emotional pain. And the pain of the exercise almost helps to relieve that. It's quite a curious thing because I understand the endorphins and all the chemicals and stuff. But the pain itself being a medicine is an interesting concept.

• 1:30:11Speaker 01

  Yeah. The other thing I think with exercise is, could you say about, because I view running sometimes like that thing running away.

• 1:30:19Steven Bartlett?

  Ah.

• 1:30:19Speaker 01

  You know, if you're running, no one can catch you. You're running, you're running, right? But it also makes you very present. You know, when you are running, you are present. And I've actually done a lot of problem solving when I've been running. Had some epiphanies as well. And so it's, I think, exercise is, you know, we were built to move. Let's do it.

• 1:30:39Steven Bartlett?

  Melanie, thank you so much.

• 1:30:40Speaker 01

  Thank you.

• 1:30:41Steven Bartlett?

  Thank you so much. And your book is, um, truly important. I think that's the best, the best way to describe it because, because the depth of your honesty and the uniqueness of your experience offers, means that it offers so much to so many people. And even someone that obviously, I mean, there's probably not, there's probably almost no one on, on planet earth that can relate to the experience itself. But the lessons that are within your book and the lessons that you've managed to pull out of those experiences are lessons that we can all use to change our life. And I, I said to you before we started recording that I usually don't make that many notes and I just, I made way too many. And it's really because I had so, I gained so much from reading it about, you know, even my own life, having not walked in your shoes, that, um,

• 1:31:25Steven Bartlett?

  really helped me in so many ways. And I know that everyone listening to it is going to gain so much from it. But I also really have to specifically thank you for your honesty around the eating disorders and. Your depression, because that will quite literally save people's lives. And you may never see it, you may never, you know, get to hear directly from those people. But I assure you of that, it's definitely, definitely will. So.

• 1:31:46Speaker 01

  Well, I thank you so much for saying that because I've been honest in the interview to say that I still fear releasing this book. But you know what, if it, if that is the case, and to hear that from you, then I feel good. I feel good about it and getting it out there.

• 1:32:03Steven Bartlett?

  Thank you.

• 1:32:04Speaker 01

  Thank you.