421: Blackout Drinking, a Packed Party Bus and a Murder Mystery in a Bar | Joel Lovelien

Halloween weekend in Grand Forks was pure chaos: packed bars, wild costumes, blackout drinking, and a party bus full of people who could barely remember the night by morning. . If you’re new here, don’t forget to follow the show for weekly deep dives into the darkest true crime cases! To watch the video version of this episode, head over to youtube.com/@annieelise. .🔎Join Our True Crime Club & Get Exclusive Content & Perks..🎧 Need More to Binge? Listen to both of my weekly true crime series 10 to Life & Serialously with Annie Elise wherever you get your podcasts on the Annie Elise Channel!🍎 Apple Podcasts | Where you can also unlock access to 100+ and growing extra exclusive deep dives.💚 Spotify🔴 YouTube🎙️ All Other Platforms.📸 Follow Annie on Socials Instagram: @_annieeliseTikTok: @_annieeliseSubstack: @annieeliseFacebook: @10toLife.⭐SponsorsRo-GLP-1S: Go to http://ro.co/ae. Neuro Gum: For a limited time, you can get 20% off your first order at http://NeuroGum.com by using code AE. Chime Financial: Head to http://chime.com/serialously. Willie’s Remedy: Order now at http://drinkwillies.com and use code SERIALOUSLY for 20% off of your first order + free shipping on orders over $95. Ladder: Head to http://ladder.fit/AE and take a quick quiz to find your perfect Ladder plan..👗 Shop Annie’s Must-Haves! ShopMY: bit.ly/AnnieElise_ShopMy Amazon: bit.ly/AnnieElise_Amazon.🫵🏻 Get Involved or Recommend a CaseAbout Annie: www.annieelise.comFor Business Inquiries: [email protected].📚 Episode Sources Amundson Funeral Home | Dakota Spotlight True Crime | Dateline | Grand Forks Herald | InForum | NBC News | The Cinemaholic | True Noir Stories••••••••••••••••••🚨Disclaimers1️⃣ Some links may be affiliate links, they do not cost you anything, but I make a small percentage from the sale. Thank you so much for watching and supporting me. 2️⃣ Sources used to collect this information include various public news sites, interviews, court documents, FB groups dedicated to the case, and various news channel segments. When quoting statements made by others, they are strictly alleged until confirmed otherwise. Please remember my videos are my independent opinion and to always do your own research. 3️⃣ The views and opinions expressed in this video are personal and do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of any other agency, organization, employer, or company. Assumptions made in the analysis are not reflective of the position of any entity other than the creator(s). These views are subject to change, revision, and rethinking at any time and are not to be held in perpetuity. We make no representations as to the accuracy, completeness, correctness, suitability, or validity of any information on this video and will not be liable for any errors, omissions, or delays in this information or any losses, injuries, or damages arising from its display or use. All information is provided on an as-is basis. It is the reader’s responsibility to verify their own facts.

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• 0:00Annie Elise?

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• 1:27Speaker 03

  Heather Eastling and her boyfriend Joel Lovely were putting on costumes. But that evening, inside the Broken Drum, they were completely unprepared for the most frightening night of their lives.

• 1:38Speaker 04

  Not an emergency? We got an emergency at the Broken Drum. Evil exists. Evil dwells in people. And it comes out, and things like this happen.

• 1:51Annie Elise?

  Hey, true crime besties. Welcome back to an all-new episode of Serial Insanity.

• 2:13Annie Elise?

  Hello, hello, hello, and welcome back to an all new episode of Serialist Lee with me, your host, Annie Elise, here to break down another case with you. I'm going to be honest with you, this one is kind of like, not kind of, it is a mystery, and it has a lot of scary elements, like different Halloween costumes, different stories and versions of events, like what really happened, what's the truth, and it's fucking nutty, okay? It is a weird one, and like, I hate this term, you know, I hate this expression, but like a real whodunit kind of case. And so I knew that this was going to be a perfect one for me to come on here and share with you guys, just because, you know, we're all family here,

• 2:55Annie Elise?

  and I feel like I can really express myself accurately with this case, without needing to censor myself, like YouTube loves me to do. So I want to share it with you today. And like I said, it's a weird one, there's a lot of mystery behind it, and I am going to be so, so curious to see your comments and know what you think about it, because I feel like I have my thoughts and ideas, but, you know, what do I know? It's just little old me. So I'm going to stop talking, and let's kick this case off. Now, as we all know, Halloween is one of the biggest party holidays of the year, especially in college towns. The streets are flooded with people who are decked out in full costumes,

• 3:36Annie Elise?

  bars are packed, parties are going, the whole night is filled with excitement and chaos, and drinking, sometimes drugs, I mean, lots of things. Now, in Grand Forks, North Dakota, that is exactly what Halloween weekend looked like on Saturday, October 27, 2007. College students and locals were packing into the bars, people were dressed as all kinds of movie characters and monsters, you know, just all these costumes and people roaming the streets, people drifted from one party to the next, and it was kind of like one of those nights where it's easy to lose track of your friends. Everybody's raging and partying together, going in and out of bars of how Houses, things like that. And just like people get lost during all of the chaos.

• 4:19Annie Elise?

  Everybody was out, everybody was having a good time. But by the end of the night, someone wouldn't make it home. Someone who had tried to do the right thing, but was found beaten to death. And there were multiple potential suspects, okay? One of whom was found covered in blood. Yet somehow, this case still left more questions than answers in the grand scheme of things. With the main question, of course, being, what really happened that night? That night, a 38-year-old IT tech named Joel Loveling and his fiancee Heather Eastling had met up with some friends at the Broken Drum Bar in downtown Grand Forks. Now Joel and Heather had been doing this long-distance relationship type thing for quite a while at this point.

• 5:04Annie Elise?

  However, Heather had recently made the move from Texas. So now they had a lot to celebrate. It wasn't just Halloween weekend, but her moving there, no more long distance, which if you've ever been in a long-distance relationship, ugh, it sucks balls. And they were ready to just like, party and have fun. Now Joel was a very big ice hockey fan. So he was wearing a bright green jersey repping the University of North Dakota, while Heather was dressed up as a mechanic. So they were having a really fun night out, laughing, drinking, and just enjoying being together, finally, together in person. Joel was seen puffing on a cigar, playing blackjack, and it just felt like the perfect night out. It would really be a Halloween to remember. However, for all of the wrong reasons.

• 5:48Annie Elise?

  Pretty soon, a party bus pulled up to the bar and about 40 to 50 people, mostly people in their twenties, just came stumbling out of this party bus. Clearly wasted, had been drinking, maybe even day drinking for quite some time at that point, who knows? But obviously drunk and wasted out of their minds and ready to keep the party going. Now, if you don't know what a party bus is, let me break it down for you. It's basically a nightclub on wheels, okay? It's like, some of them are decked out with stripper poles inside of them. They have like, the disco lights, the strobe lights, loud music, you know, bench seating, not traditional party bus type seating, but like bench seating. All around the perimeter and it's like you have bars on the side like a traditional limo, not bars, but you know, like ice chests where you can hold drinks and like everybody's

• 6:33Annie Elise?

  partying and hanging and talking and listening to music and some of them have like flat screen TVs in them. I mean, they're really fun. So the whole idea is that, oh, while you're in route to the next location, you're able to keep the party going on this bus, drinking, not being risky by driving and just enjoying your time. Now, these partygoers who arrived were obviously in costume because it was Halloween after all. So that piece of it didn't feel off or unusual. It was just another group out celebrating. So the night continued on like that with people coming and going, drinks flowing, music playing. And then at some point, the group headed outside to take the bus to their next destination. Now, at this same time, which was around 11:30 PM,

• 7:15Annie Elise?

  Joel had also gone outside. He needed to step outside to take a phone call. It was way too loud inside. So he goes out, takes this call. But then he comes back inside and he tells Heather that somebody from the bus needed help. And he said something about a person getting left behind. So he told her like, look, I'm gonna go help them. I will be right back. It's gonna just take me a minute. He gave her a quick kiss and then he headed to the parking lot to go help this young twenty something year old. Heather obviously didn't really think much of it. I mean, Joel was a very good guy. He had a reputation for helping others out too. So it tracked that he wanted to help this drunk kid out. And nothing seemed alarming or out of character. But little did she know that in that moment, that was going to be the last

• 7:58Annie Elise?

  time that she would ever see Joel alive. Within just a few minutes, someone frantically came in screaming, call 911, call 911. But the call wasn't for that person that Joel had gone outside to help. The call was for Joel. The employees of the bar immediately called 911. This was at 11:52 PM and they reported that there was a fight happening in the parking lot. And in this fight, it was so bad that there was a person down on the ground. Then, just three minutes later, at 11:55 PM, they called again. This time saying that the person on the ground didn't appear. Here to be breathing. That person was Joel. Several officers arrived very quickly and immediately began performing chest compressions.

• 8:43Annie Elise?

  One of the officers immediately noticed that Joel had severe head injuries as well. He was lying flat on his back and his head was just completely covered in blood, making it very difficult to even see his facial features. Now, as the officers were working on Joel, of course, when things like that happen, it's a spectacle and a big crowd of bystanders started gathering around, some offering help, some just wanting to witness what was happening. And while still inside the bar, Heather didn't understand that it was Joel, but she heard the commotion and heard what was going on, so she rushed outside. Now, what she saw was obviously completely shocking and devastating and something that nobody should see because she saw Joel lying on the ground, unresponsive, with blood covering his head.

• 9:27Annie Elise?

  She couldn't tell what had happened to him. It made absolutely no sense. He had been beaten so badly that the blood was literally flowing from his head, which, can you even imagine? I mean, one minute, your significant other kisses you, saying they're just gonna go help somebody out outside, they'll be right back, and then the next thing you know, you walk outside to some sort of commotion, you find that person unconscious on the ground with their head bashed in. How do you even start to reconcile that in your mind? Ultimately, Joel was rushed to the hospital, and the doctors did everything that they could, but there was nothing more that they could do, unfortunately. Joel was pronounced dead shortly after arriving. And making this even more tragic for those working there and just in general

• 10:12Annie Elise?

  is the fact that this was the same hospital where he worked as an IT tech. According to the coroner, Joel was beaten so badly that the coroner could feel and hear the bones in Joel's face. And ultimately, his cause of death was choking to death on his own blood. Which that has to be one of the scariest moments and realizations to be lying there, knowing you're so badly injured that you can't get up, you can't really talk, you can't speak, but then you're trying to, you're trying to fight and you're just choking on your own blood. It is awful. And I mean, like, this was just a night of fun, what was supposed to be fun, celebrating that his girlfriend had moved to town. They are not long distance.

• 10:55Annie Elise?

  It's Halloween weekend. We're having drinks. I'm going to go outside. I'm just going to help this person. And it just ends in complete devastation. News of Joel's death spread very quickly, leaving his family and friends completely stunned. When they heard the news, it didn't even feel real. I mean, just hours earlier, he had been out celebrating Halloween. And now he was gone? He was only 38 years old. He had his entire life ahead of him. None of it made any sense. And for the people who knew him best, the question was the same. How could something like this happen to Joel? Who would even do this to him? Now, to understand why Joel's death hit people so hard and why it made so little sense, we do need to take a little bit of a step back and look at who he was.

• 11:39Annie Elise?

  Joel was born on October 8, 1969. He spent most of his life in the Upper Midwest. He was born in Bismarck, North Dakota, the state's capital, and then later grew up between Grand Forks, North Dakota, and Bagley, Minnesota. Joel was also a very big guy, tall, broad shoulders, pretty sturdy looking. As a kid, he could be very stubborn and very strong willed, but as he got older, his friends started calling him Gentle Giant for just his welcoming and kind presence. He was also incredibly smart, and he graduated from the University of North Dakota with degrees in math and computer science. But apparently, he could also be a little bit of a jokester. He wasn't just like book smart and, you know, nose in the book, bookworm kind of guy.

• 12:22Annie Elise?

  He was a jokester. He had a dry, sometimes, you know, raunchy sense of humor, but loved to just have a big personality with the people he loved, even strangers that he met. Outside of work, Joel enjoyed golfing, bowling, of course, hockey, hence his Halloween costume. But above all else, he loved spending time with the people closest to him, especially his daughter Alexa from his first marriage. She really brought out his goofy side and they both bonded over their love of SpongeBob SquarePants. It was kind of their thing and Joel became known for just like belting out the theme song at any given moment. It didn't matter if it was the middle of lunch or if he was having a beer after work with his friends, he would just start, you know, singing that song.

• 13:04Annie Elise?

  Then around 2006, Joel met Heather, an elementary school teacher. They instantly fell in love, they felt a very deep connection from the jump and of course, a romantic relationship quickly formed. They were engaged after just 10 months of dating and they already had a wedding date planned as well. August 8th, 2008, as in 8-8-8 or 08-08-08. So that's who Joel was, a father, a fiance, a friend, and someone who was truly known for their kindness and their big heart, a gentle giant. So that's why what happened to him on Halloween night when he reportedly was just going out to help someone, which was so on-brand for him, it just left his loved ones searching for answers. How could this happen?

• 13:49Annie Elise?

  I mean, sure, yes, he was a big guy, as I mentioned, but he wasn't aggressive and he definitely wasn't the kind of person to get into a bar fight. If anything, he was the type of guy to talk somebody out of a fight, not start one. So police interviewed Heather and she said that it was absolutely, quote, "inconceivable" that he would pick a fight with anyone. He literally went to help someone, he was only going to be gone for a few minutes. So if someone wanted to fight him, he would back off, he would use logic instead. He wasn't the type of person to escalate an issue, he didn't feed into anger the way that some people do. Now for the Grand Forks Police Department, this became a really challenging case from the start. Grand Forks is the kind of place where violent crimes are pretty rare.

• 14:31Annie Elise?

  In fact, the city averaged about one murder per year. Now, it is a college town though, but with that, people didn't expect tragedies like this one to happen. A party town, sure, murder and death, no. And the timing of it all, that just made things so much more complicated. It was Halloween weekend after all, alcohol was involved, the streets were crowded with people in costume, people who couldn't be identified easily. Chaos. So let's go back to the night in question for a minute. Investigators got to work finding possible witnesses and suspects in all of this right away. But unfortunately, by the time the investigators were on the scene, the party bus was long gone. However, there were about 80 people still at the bar.

• 15:14Annie Elise?

  So what they decided to do was something called freeze the scene. And this meant that nobody was allowed to leave and nobody was allowed to enter. Not until everyone was questioned. They got the names and addresses of everyone present and they wanted to know if anybody had seen Joel that night or if they had seen anything suspicious. And not long after, the investigators did catch a lead. A man named Swanson had told the police that he and his wife saw the fight when they were entering the parking lot. And according to him, it looked like several people got onto a yellow party bus and then left. Now, does that mean that they got a glimpse of the killer? Does that mean that it was somebody on the bus who did this and then jumped on and skirted off into the night?

• 15:59Annie Elise?

  As investigators continued interviewing people at the bar, they zeroed in on three individuals whose costumes just kept getting mentioned and brought up in conversation. A clown, a cowboy, and a hunter. These individuals were also spotted around Joel or on that party bus. Other costumes were mentioned as well, like a gangster, a homeless person, a joker, and a penguin. But they decided to focus on those first three. Now, I know you might be thinking to like, okay, it almost sounds like it's a bad joke, right? Like what a nightmare for these investigators. Halloween, everybody's dressed up. Wouldn't it be harder to identify these people? How are you just gonna be like, hey, has anybody seen any clowns around here or any cowboys around here? Which in some ways, yes, it would be more difficult.

• 16:44Annie Elise?

  But in this case, it actually helped them because it made these individuals stand out even more. Would you think about it for a second? If you saw something shady happening and one of those people was dressed up as a clown or a cowboy, that would probably stick with you, right? Sometimes it's more difficult to have like actual facial recognition, but something like that would definitely stand out. And at the crime scene, investigators- Investigators also found another very interesting piece of evidence. It looked like a yellow cloth foot with black claws. Maybe from like a bird costume and maybe it had gotten ripped off or something like that. But it was definitely a piece of evidence, especially because it had blood drops on it.

• 17:25Annie Elise?

  Now killer or not, this person of course needed to be tracked down because it looked as though they must have been in close proximity to the scene. How else would they get blood on their costume? I mean, the truth was it was just a very strong possibility that they were present when Joel was killed. All right, I feel like we need to just have an honest conversation here in the circle of trust. Can we talk about how literally everything seems to be getting more expensive? Groceries, gas, rent, you name it. And apparently your wireless bill wants to join in on that party too. But here's the thing, it doesn't have to. Mint Mobile is making it so much easier to stop overpaying for wireless with plans starting at just 15 bucks a month. And you're not sacrificing quality either.

• 18:07Annie Elise?

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• 18:52Annie Elise?

  See Mint Mobile for details. Meanwhile, investigators managed to track down the man wearing the clown costume at another bar down the road or down, you know, downtown. His name was John DeZile. Now several patrons had claimed to have seen him arguing with Joel inside the bar before then leaving together out the back. So right away too, when investigators caught up with John, things just seemed off. He was extremely emotional, like crying hysterically, hands shaking, just very highly strung, that kind of emotional. And he kept repeating things like, I guess things just got out of hand tonight. But he also seemed confused and he said that he didn't know what was going on.

• 19:35Annie Elise?

  So from the investigator's point of view, those were some major red flags. I mean, if he supposedly didn't know what had happened that night, then why was he talking and more so emotionally acting like he did? So they brought him back to the station for questioning. And once they got started, they didn't really give him much breathing room. Investigators kept pushing him, asking him question after question. But John got more and more annoyed as the questions kept coming. So then he started pushing back, arguing, repeating the same thing over and over, that he had nothing to do with John's death. At some point through all of this, he had enough and he demanded that he get a lawyer. So that's when one of the officers told him that he needed to just quote,

• 20:18Annie Elise?

  "close his mouth and open his ears." They were sending a very clear message to him to at this point, kind of like, "Dude, you better stop arguing. You better start listening to us. This isn't going well for you. We still have questions. We're not done with you yet." But the truth was, he had lawyered up and that can only take you so far, right? And I gotta say, no offense, but like bad on the cops for saying they still had questions and weren't done with him yet, when he already asked for that lawyer. Because anything you get after that point is null and void, will not go into a courtroom. It's like, you can't do that. He lawyered up, period. But John didn't react to this the way that you might think. Getting mad and being like, you know, "Fuck you. I asked for my lawyer. Get the hell out of my face." He didn't push the lawyer issue at all, actually.

• 21:02Annie Elise?

  In fact, he just seemed confused. So instead of being like, "Hey, where is my lawyer?", he just kept asking for one thing: his girlfriend's jacket. Now this left the investigators confused themselves and scratching their heads, because that's a pretty strange request. But it turns out that he and his girlfriend had also gotten into a huge fight that night. He said that that's pretty typical when they're drinking together. She got upset, stormed off, leaving her jacket on the bus. And apparently that is what John was most worried about. He thought that he could get her jacket back and then use it to smooth things over with her, to win her back. That was his big plan, to make things right. So suddenly that crying from earlier, that shaking, that emotional panic,

• 21:47Annie Elise?

  it took on a different meaning. Maybe it had more to do with the argument between him and his girlfriend more than anything else that had happened that night. Not to mention, he didn't have any signs of being in a physical fight. No cuts, no bruises. So, they let him go. And once again, investigators were right back where they started. They didn't have any answers. So they moved on to the next person of interest. The cowboy. They found the cowboy walking downtown and, boy, did he not want to cooperate. They had to yell at him several times before he finally stopped. His name was Bryce Larson, but he gave them a fake name and a fake birthday, saying that he was Bryce Whipler, not Larson. He claimed that he had no idea that a fight had even broken out at the bar.

• 22:32Annie Elise?

  But the investigators thought that he was lying because one of the bouncers at the bar had said that a man, dressed as a cowboy, had come up to them and reported a fight. But another thing that stood out to the investigators was that Bryce didn't have any injuries. No cuts or bruises, no blood, nothing. Nothing suggested that he had been in a fight, or, you know, tried to break one up, or anything for that matter. Yet still, Bryce acted incredibly defensive and aggressive. He was yelling, pointing fingers, arguing with the officers about pretty much everything. And eventually, things started getting physical. So at this point, officers didn't really have much of a choice. They had to handcuff him, calm him down. They didn't place him under arrest, but they knew that they needed to get control over the situation.

• 23:16Annie Elise?

  So they brought him into the station, still very drunk and not wanting to make a statement. But they did uncuff him, because now, at this point, he had calmed down, he was no longer getting physical. He said that he had no information about the fight, and he didn't know who could have been involved. He didn't know anything about it, he just wanted his lawyer, like, "Leave me alone, I know nothing, I saw nothing, just get me my lawyer." However, through all of this, he did ask an unusual question. He asked if the victim was wearing a green shirt with the initials U.N.D. on it. Which that is pretty specific, I would say. And of course, this sounded exactly like Joel, exactly like what he was wearing.

• 23:56Annie Elise?

  So naturally, that caught the investigators' attention, because had Bryce actually witnessed the fight that killed Joel? Because if not, how else would he have known what Joel was wearing? So the next day, the investigators brought back both the clown and- The Cowboy, John and Bryce. Now this time, part of their stories changed. Initially, Bryce the Cowboy had said that he had not seen Joel at all that night. Although he had implied that he had because he had mentioned somebody wearing that green shirt, right? But now Bryce claimed that he had seen Joel. And that when he last saw him, he was alive and well. Meanwhile, John the Clown also was changing his story. He was saying that he never actually even got in a fight with his girlfriend.

• 24:41Annie Elise?

  Which remember, he said they fought on the bus and that's why he wanted her jacket? Instead, he said that he was upset after hearing what had happened to Joel, realizing, you know, that could have been me. It could have been me that night. Which is so weird that they both are changing their stories the following morning. Which maybe you could say that the booze was wearing off and they were having, you know, memories and recollections possibly. But still, I mean, a pretty big coincidence, right? So it turns out that neither of them had seen Joel's murder. But they did witness a fight outside the bar. But not one involving Joel. Their friend, who was dressed up as a hunter, got into a fight with a guy who was wearing a yellow sweatshirt. Both of them had been riding on that party bus as well.

• 25:23Annie Elise?

  The hunter turned out to be a man named James Wavra. And when investigators brought him into the station and started asking questions, he told them the fight came out of nowhere. That he was just walking out of the bar toward the bus with a girl named Anna, who was dressed as Paris Hilton. And according to him, James, all of a sudden, a random guy just lunged at him, made a smart-ass remark, and then took a swing at him. Almost like the guy was seriously trying to hurt him and injure him. Luckily, the punch just grazed him and it missed Anna. But the guy could have done some real damage. Apparently, he was just like charging at him. So after that, James says that he fought back. He punched the guy a few times and might have kicked him too. But weirdly enough, he didn't even remember what this guy was wearing.

• 26:08Annie Elise?

  Because according to him, his like fight or flight mode just kicked in and he was just like on the defense. He said he didn't even have any time to pay attention to this guy, not at all. All he remembered was that the guy was pretty young, maybe 22 or 20 33 years old, certainly not a big guy either, pretty small guy. So he suggested that the police call his friend Anna, the one who was dressed as Paris Hilton. He figured that if anyone remembered something about this guy, it would be her. And luckily, she did. Anna said that she remembered the guy pretty clearly, that he was a white male, similar in size to James. He was wearing a yellow sweatshirt with the hood pulled up over his head, and that the sweatshirt looked like it said "Golden Gophers" on it. Before the fight, I guess he had been staring at them.

• 26:51Annie Elise?

  And then out of nowhere, he tried to hit James and grab his neck. So she ran onto this party bus to get help. Later, because of the fight, the guy in yellow got kicked off the bus. So they went to the next bar without him. But as they were leaving, I guess the people on the party bus remember seeing the same guy in the yellow hoodie talking to somebody else outside of the bar, someone wearing a green hockey shirt. Now that detail immediately caught the investigator's attention, because that person potentially was Joel. And before long, they would discover just who that man in yellow was. The thing was, they didn't have to go looking for him. Because not too long after talking with the clown, the cowboy, and the hunter,

• 27:35Annie Elise?

  a man had showed up to the station claiming to be who they were looking for. His name was Travis Stay. He was a 23-year-old nursing student at the University of North Dakota. He had woken up after the party bus night, completely just hungover from the night before, and he woke up to a bunch of messages saying that the police were looking for him. Travis said that he had absolutely nothing to hide, so he decided to go to the station a couple of days later and explain what had happened. Travis said that he had gotten off the bus that night at the Broken Drum Bar. He was dressed in a lion costume, and he was wearing a yellow hoodie. And he said that the Broken Drum was supposed to just be for a quick bathroom break for the people on the bus. It wasn't going to be to stay, to linger, to party, to drink more.

• 28:17Annie Elise?

  It was just, get off the bus, go pee, get back on, we're going to the next bar. But then he said that once they got inside, they stayed longer than they had initially planned. So he said he ended up talking to a girl at the bar, then going back to the bus, and then getting punched in the face. He says he felt pretty out of it and dizzy afterwards, but that's all that he remembered.

• 28:37Speaker 05

  We went in there, it was a bathroom, and I came back out and I think it was a guy, a guy in orange, a guy in cowboy hat, kind of, he was, um... He was kinda in charge of the whole deal.

• 28:50Speaker 06

  Mm-hmm.

• 28:50Speaker 05

  And I came out there and these guys were kinda, you know, beefy with me and next thing I know, he slammed with a fist right near the face.

• 29:03Speaker 06

  Okay, who hit you?

• 29:04Speaker 05

  Guy who blazed on it.

• 29:05Speaker 06

  Okay. Okay. Did you fight back?

• 29:08Speaker 05

  Oh, no.

• 29:10Speaker 06

  Okay. You, you did fight back, did you? No?

• 29:14Speaker 05

  Got hit and I got fell over and I had to.

• 29:16Speaker 06

  Okay.

• 29:17Speaker 05

  So, and well, I guess I tried, you know, by a towel and that's where I got rolled grass.

• 29:24Speaker 06

  Okay. Yeah.

• 29:25Speaker 05

  Grass right here and I, you know, trying to get up.

• 29:28Speaker 06

  What happened to you again?

• 29:30Speaker 05

  So.

• 29:32Speaker 06

  Then what happened?

• 29:35Speaker 05

  Then got, got, got, got, lost, drove away, all sitting there.

• 29:41Speaker 06

  Okay.

• 29:41Speaker 05

  You got to, on a cab and I went home.

• 29:44Speaker 06

  Well, now, um, you didn't call for the cab.

• 29:48Speaker 05

  I don't, I don't know.

• 29:51Speaker 06

  Do you remember somebody approaching you and giving a hand or anything like that?

• 29:56Speaker 05

  I don't remember, I don't remember.

• 29:57Speaker 06

  Let's back up, let's back up, guys. Let's, let's, uh, you just got punched.

• 30:01Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 30:02Speaker 06

  And you just fall to the ground though. Okay. What do you remember next?

• 30:06Speaker 05

  I remember looking up and just seeing the bus. Um, I, I guess I was so dizzy and I could, you know, I, all that felt like was falling on the ground and laying there.

• 30:17Speaker 06

  Okay.

• 30:18Speaker 05

  I was so dizzy and confused and then.

• 30:20Speaker 06

  Okay.

• 30:22Speaker 05

  Couldn't do anything.

• 30:23Speaker 06

  What do you remember next, after that?

• 30:25Speaker 05

  The cab. I remember being, I remember walking and then a cab, getting into a cab, the cab bring me home.

• 30:35Speaker 06

  Okay.

• 30:35Speaker 05

  That's what I remember. I remember walking, I'm not sure for how long, maybe it was on the parking lot, maybe far, far, I, I just remember walking.

• 30:46Speaker 06

  I know that says, I think I'm being gay.

• 30:48Speaker 05

  Yeah, I don't think that.

• 30:50Speaker 06

  Okay, let's stop there.

• 30:51Speaker 05

  I could've walked that far, I think he got home.

• 30:53Speaker 06

  Okay, you remember getting into the cab?

• 30:56Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 30:57Speaker 06

  Okay, let's stop right there. Before you got into the cab, what did you do?

• 31:04Speaker 05

  Before I got into the cab?

• 31:08Speaker 05

  Just like this. I didn't do anything. I sat there and waited for my cab.

• 31:14Speaker 06

  Okay, where were you when you waited for the cab?

• 31:17Speaker 05

  What was that?

• 31:22Speaker 05

  It's all blurry after I got hit. Like, I don't remember. If we could call this cab driver.

• 31:31Speaker 06

  And we will.

• 31:32Speaker 05

  You know.

• 31:32Speaker 06

  Let's try to focus a little bit.

• 31:35Annie Elise?

  So he really had no memory of that night. I mean, aside from getting punched. Which, remember, there was that yellow foot from a costume that the police had found at the scene, the one that had blood on it. And it turns out that it wasn't a bird foot, it was a lion's paw. And it did belong to Travis's costume. So no memory, got into a fight, part of his costume was found at the crime scene. I mean, things were not looking good for Travis. And to make matters worse, he looked pretty rough. He had a ton of injuries. He had a deep cut under his left eye, a bunch of bruises, scratched up knuckles. Police questioned him about those, but Travis said that he had been punched by a guy who was dressed like a hunter.

• 32:19Annie Elise?

  So his story mirrored what the clown and the cowboy had already told the investigators. The man in the yellow sweatshirt, the fight with the hunter, I mean, it all matched. So the investigators at this point wanted to know, okay, well, what happened to the rest of your costume? But Travis said that he had thrown it away because it was covered in blood. And while they were speaking to him, they also noticed a small drop of blood on his shoes. So immediately, they asked him if they could take his shoes in as evidence. And surprisingly, he cooperated. He said yes. Although, they did find it a little bit weird that he had come to the station wearing them if they had blood on them, especially if that blood had been from, you know, the night before.

• 32:59Annie Elise?

  But Travis continued to cooperate, even allowing them to search his home and get a DNA sample, all without a search warrant. Eventually, they found his lion costume in the trash, just like he had said. His story still seemed a little sketchy, though, but he kept insisting that he had nothing to do with Joel's death. He claimed that he was so drunk that he couldn't even remember what had happened at the bar or even talking to Joel. According to him, the last thing that he could even remember was the fight outside of the bar. Everything else was just a little bit blurry. Until he found himself riding in a cab going back home. This episode is sponsored by Chime. Get more of your money with Chime. With the Chime card, you get 5% cash back in a category of your choice with qualifying direct deposits.

• 33:44Annie Elise?

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• 34:27Annie Elise?

  Go to chime.com/disclosures for details. Well, through all of this, the cab driver also came forward. And he said that Travis got into his cab at around 1 a.m. and that he had bloody hands and shaky hands. He said that there was blood covering his entire face, almost like a mask. He also said that Travis seemed really out of it. He didn't even say where he wanted to go until the driver asked him four different times, like, "Where am I taking you?" Which, I just want to pause for a moment and process this collectively, all together. I get that it's Halloween, okay? But you're telling me that this driver saw Travis covered in blood, all over his face,

• 35:08Annie Elise?

  bloody hands, hands shaking, something like it's out of a horror movie, and still agreed to drive him wherever he wanted to go? For me, that would be like a giant, "Hell no, get the hell out of my car." I'd be calling the cops as soon as I possibly could. But again, I get it, it is Halloween. Could it have been... I don't want to say part of the costume because the behavior is there and like unless he's a method actor. I mean, come on, but that would be incredibly scary and it gets even creepier. Travis was in the front seat. He didn't even ride in the backseat. He just sat in the front seat and was just staring straight ahead with a blank stare.

• 35:47Annie Elise?

  He just stared right ahead at the dash with not saying a single word, not reacting, just staring. Or arguably processing. The driver also noticed that Travis had a very deep cut just below his eye. So he asked him if he wanted to go and get it looked at, but Travis said, what cut? Then he flipped down the, you know, what is that called? The rear view mirror? Not the rear view mirror, but you know, the one that flips down on the sun visor and you open it up. So he flipped that down, opened the mirror, looked at it. And then that moment, him seeing himself in that mirror, that is what snapped him out of his trance. Just a very strange and very unsettling interaction all around. I mean, something was clearly off, right?

• 36:31Annie Elise?

  Now, to be fair, Travis had been drinking heavily that night, so that could explain why he seemed so out of it. And just to look at the bigger picture of it all, the partying that night was on another level. People on the bus later described it as a major, just like binger and rager going from bar to bar, drinking on the bus, off the bus, everywhere. In fact, it's estimated that there were 325 Jell-O shots on the bus alone, which that equates to six or seven shots per person. And that's in addition to what they were drinking at the bars that they all stopped at. Now, just in case you didn't know, either Jell-O shots are basically just Jell-O powder mixed with water, vodka, tequila, or any other alcohol.

• 37:14Annie Elise?

  They can be incredibly potent and you chill them until they get firm like Jell-O and then you eat them in one bite. You just swallow it and like throw it back. I know because I have had a Jell-O shot or 100 in my day. But in other words, the point being that when it comes to Jell-O shots, it's a very easy to have more than one. It tastes like Jell-O, you just throw it back and you don't even realize how much you're consuming, I guess. I mean, at least speaking from experience, I never did. It's, you know, it seems like easy. Especially at a party when you're all drunk and having fun. So needless to say, everybody was just totally wasted. And like Travis, a lot of other people didn't remember much from that night either. However, there was a missing stretch of time.

• 37:59Annie Elise?

  The time from the fight in the parking lot to when he got in the cab. And that stretch of time was about an hour and 15 minutes to be exact. So that raised an obvious question, right? What exactly was Travis doing during that window of time? Because according to the investigator's timeline, that window of time is when Joel was killed. So they were not buying Travis's story. However, they had no choice but to let him go. Two days later, they then brought him back in for more questioning. But his answers didn't change. He still didn't remember much from that night, and he said that he had never even talked to Joel. So weeks went by and the investigators continued to work around the clock, trying to piece together what had happened.

• 38:43Annie Elise?

  And one of the more interesting reports that they were able to find related to the early morning hours of Sunday, October 28th, at around 12:20 a.m. A man named Steven Resseca had been walking home after watching hockey at a neighbor's house. It wasn't too long of a walk, and at one point, he walked down an alleyway. He immediately saw a man leaning on a fence, and it made him super suspicious. It was late, it was cold out, so you know, why was someone hanging out there? And he sensed that things were off, so he started picking up his pace, walking a little bit faster. Sure enough, his instincts were right, because he turned around and he saw the guy was following him. Not really chasing after him, more like stumbling toward him like a drunk person would do

• 39:28Annie Elise?

  if they were like walking in that direction. But the guy kept getting closer and closer. And then he pushed up a sleeve on his yellow sweatshirt, and he tried swinging at Steven. Luckily, Steven dodged it, sending the guy to the ground. You know that feeling when like somebody punches, but it's the air and they fall forward? So then he ran all the way to his place inside. He grabbed a baseball bat and he called his friend down the street to like come help him. But when the friend showed up, the guy The yellow had disappeared, was completely gone. So Steven and his friend drove around looking for him for a little bit, but they had no luck finding him. Steven ended up reporting the entire thing and also remembered that the attacker was

• 40:08Annie Elise?

  young, college age, wore a yellow sweatshirt, had the hood up on the yellow sweatshirt, and had blood right in the middle of his forehead. He also appeared to be injured, and he had some sort of makeshift bandage on his arm, almost as if he had been in a fight or something. So when the investigators heard this story, they were like, okay, this is obviously Travis, right? I mean, a college-aged guy in a yellow sweatshirt, covered in blood, how many of those people are just wandering the street the same night? It was obviously another piece of this puzzle, and it lined up with what they already knew about him. So the investigators kept digging, trying to build their case. And then, about a month later, their hard work paid off, because they finally caught

• 40:53Annie Elise?

  a major break. The DNA tests had finally come back from that bloody sweatshirt, and the investigators had the evidence that they were waiting for. Some of the blood, yes, did belong to Travis, but some of it belonged to Joel. So for the investigators, this was enough. Travis Stay was arrested, and he was charged with the murder of Joel Loveling. After Travis was arrested, the case made its way through the court system, with prosecutors offering him a plea deal. Basically, if he pled guilty to manslaughter, he would serve 10 years in prison. But Travis refused, and he continued to claim his innocence, meaning that this case was going to go to trial.

• 41:34Annie Elise?

  So nearly a year later, in December of 2008, Travis would finally stand trial, facing the possibility of life behind bars. When the trial started, people all over Grand Forks started paying attention. Things like this just did not happen there, and many people had followed the investigation from the very beginning. So the court had tons of spectators, and it was standing room only. Everybody was there, trying to figure out what was going to happen. Even local schools started taking field trips, so they could get a glimpse into what was happening, which I've never heard of a school field trip going to a courthouse for a trial, but like, that's how big this was. Everybody wanted to know the truth and what had actually happened that night. So the prosecution laid out the state's theory of what happened that night.

• 42:20Annie Elise?

  According to them, Travis had brutally attacked Joel while he lay on the ground. Then Joel choked on his own blood and died, all while Travis fled the scene. To explain their theory and set up a timeline, they used video surveillance from the night at the Broken Drum. And in that footage, Travis can clearly be seen heading outside to the parking lot in his yellow lion costume. A few moments later, Joel is seen in the bar too, wearing his green hockey jersey. He walks out that same door, but he never comes back in. And even though there weren't cameras in the parking lot, prosecutors argued that the footage still told them something crucial, that Travis was in the parking lot when Joel was killed.

• 43:04Annie Elise?

  Physical evidence also helped back this up, because Travis's sweatshirt had four areas that were totally drenched in blood. And testing showed that three of the four areas were Joel's blood. Blood spatter experts believed that Joel had been laying down the entire time that this attack happened. This is because of the way that the blood had appeared at the scene and on the clothing. So to them, it was evident that Joel's attacker had been on top of him, possibly even straddling him and not allowing him up, and that Joel was just defenseless on the ground. There was blood on the middle of the sweatshirt, the sleeve of the sweatshirt, and on the costume that they found in the trash. The blood on the middle of the sweatshirt and sleeve showed what experts called "impact

• 43:49Annie Elise?

  spatter." That's when you hit somebody so hard that their blood literally sprays back on to you, on to the person delivering the blows. And then there's this thing called "contact blood." And that's when something comes into direct contact with blood, which in this case, the costume touched Joel's blood and picked it up, meaning that at some point it was basically laying on his blood. Next, they brought in the pathologist who completed Joel's autopsy. They asked if it looked as if Joel had been attacked by one person, or perhaps several people. And according to her, if it had been several people, then there would have been way more injuries all over Joel's body. They would have been more spread out as well. They wouldn't be as concentrated.

• 44:32Annie Elise?

  But Joel's injuries were strictly on his face and head area. As if somebody was just on top of him, going to town, blow after blow. She said that she had done autopsies on people who had been hurt by more than one person, and that this definitely did not fit in that category. Then they brought in several witnesses from that night. People like the cowboy, Bryce Larson, the hunter, James, who had gotten into that first fight with Travis, and then Steven, the one who Travis tried attacking that night in the alleyway, but fortunately was unsuccessful. Prosecutors also pointed out another big piece of evidence in their theory that this was a sole attack from Travis and not anybody on the bus.

• 45:14Annie Elise?

  And that piece of evidence was that the investigators never found any blood on the party bus. Travis had plenty of Joel's blood on his clothes, but not a single drop could be found on the bus. So if a group of guys really had beat up Joel, then got back on the bus and took off, wouldn't they have tracked blood inside? And as we know, Travis never got back on that bus. He was kicked off of it. He wasn't allowed back on. And remember why Joel even went outside of that bar in the first place? It was to help somebody who got left behind. Meaning, no one else from that bus could have been in the parking lot except for the two of them. Travis was the one who got left behind. So from the prosecution's point of view, the idea that multiple people attacked Joel, it just didn't add up.

• 45:59Annie Elise?

  And think about that too, for a moment. If he had gone outside to take that call, and Travis was like, "My friends all just left me, man. Like, they took off without me. I have no ride. I don't know how to get to the next spot." And if Joel was like, "Just hang on here. I'll be right back. I'm gonna help you." Goes inside, kisses Heather, says, "I'm gonna just go help this guy. He got left behind." Goes back out, and then gets attacked by Travis? How awful is that? So in their eyes, the prosecution's eyes, it was enough. They had blood evidence that physically connected Travis to Joel. Plus, they had plenty of witnesses. But even with all of that, the prosecution did face some big questions. Like, what would the defense do? Would Travis take the stand? How would the jury? react to him claiming he couldn't even remember what happened that night.

• 46:43Annie Elise?

  And another thing that they took into account was that Travis looked visibly smaller than Joel. I mean, you saw the pictures of Joel, if you're watching this video version of this episode. He was a pretty goo- good guy. He stood taller and he had a bigger build than Travis. So the defense could have easily argued how it would be nearly impossible for Travis to overpower somebody of that size. And that's exactly what they did. Today's episode is sponsored by Wayfair. Now you guys know I'm constantly changing things out in the studio, at my house, everywhere. I always have some sort of room that I just want to refresh. I want to like do a little mini upgrade, change something out, flip it around. So recently I wanted to change my kids' rooms. They have, they're growing, they need like full blown hampers now. I need to organize their stuff more.

• 47:28Annie Elise?

  So I went to Wayfair, knowing exactly that I was going to find what I needed. They spec it out for you. They have the exact measurements available. You can like see the reviews and it's just, it makes it so easy to find something and feel confident about what you're buying. And I love it now. It like their rooms look so cute, they're so organized. Love, love, love for them. And Wayfair just makes shopping for your home so easy because there are thousands of products across basically every style and budget. Their products also have been hand vetted by product specialists using a 10-point quality inspection. Plus you have those trusted reviews that will help you decide. So whether you're replacing one thing or completely transforming a space, there is so much to choose from. Find pieces made for real life and get even more value with Wayfair Rewards. Join Wayfair Rewards today and get 5% back on every purchase.

• 48:11Annie Elise?

  Head to wayfair.com to shop all things home. That's W A Y F A I R dot com. Travis hired two experienced defense attorneys from the Minneapolis area. And they argued that the prosecution had gotten the entire thing wrong. That the prosecution had given incorrect information and that they weren't telling the whole story. They pushed back on the prosecution's theory and said that Joel hadn't been killed by Travis at all. They argued he had been attacked by a group of men from that party bus. They called it an angry mob. And their version of events, it looked very, very different. They think, Anne said, that a fight Broke out involving Travis. Lots of alcohol had been involved, so that's likely what had triggered it.

• 48:55Annie Elise?

  And then here comes Joel minding his own business, but he sees Travis and decides to help because that's the kind of person that he was, a good Samaritan. And their size difference only added to this theory. Travis looked a whole lot smaller than Joel, so there's no way that Travis could have taken him down, let alone killed him. I mean, Joel was 6'4", 240 pounds, and Travis was about 5'9" and weighed 180 pounds, which that's a pretty big difference. So they argued that it didn't really add up that Travis could just take Joel down, even if it was in some sort of like drunken rage. He simply wasn't capable of causing the injuries that Joel had. But then what about the bloody clothes? How do you explain that? Well, the defense had an argument for that as well.

• 49:40Annie Elise?

  They got their own blood spatter expert who said that there were several ways that the blood could have ended up on Travis's clothing. One possibility? That Travis had actually been there trying to help Joel after the attack and that that's how the blood got on him. And remember how his shoes also had blood on them? Well, it turns out that that was Travis's own blood, not Joel's. But what about the cuts on Travis's hands, the cut below his eye, all of those things? Well, they brought out an ER doctor who said that the cuts weren't severe enough. They didn't come from beating somebody to death. The doctor said that if Travis had beaten Joel, then his hands would be much more bruised and bloody. And that's kind of how it was throughout this entire trial, just back and forth, two scenarios.

• 50:25Annie Elise?

  One, was Travis trying to hurt Joel? Was he trying? Another, was Travis trying to help Joel? Just two completely different narratives. During cross-examination, the defense also showed how there were problems with one of the key witnesses, the cowboy specifically, Bryce. On the stand, he admitted that he had lied to the police about not seeing the fight between Travis and the hunter. So they figured if he's lying about that, what else could he be lying about? They even straight up asked him, if you already lied to the investigators, how can we tell if you're being honest now? And his answer, he literally said, "I don't know." Which, how awkward is that? I mean, that's not very reassuring for a jury to try to figure out what happened here.

• 51:09Annie Elise?

  If they're like, "Well, how do we know if you're being honest now?" And he's like, "Uh, I don't know." It's like, "Say something, my guy, come on." So then they brought out the clown, John, the one who cried and said that he got into a fight with his girlfriend that night. He wanted her jacket back, all of those things. Well, on the stand, he literally said that he didn't remember anything. He didn't remember crying, he didn't remember even being upset, nothing. So these witnesses were proving to be unreliable, which obviously made the prosecution look bad, and it helped the defense in turn. Unsurprisingly in all of this, Travis did not take the stand. He had no memory of the time between the bus and taking that cab back home, so he wouldn't be able to even answer many of their questions honestly.

• 51:54Annie Elise?

  But that didn't even matter, because the defense had more up their sleeve. Next, they took a look at the security footage from the bar. Now, if you remember, prosecutors claimed that the party bus had left by the time of Joel's murder. But the security footage, it showed the opposite. Everyone that they interviewed said that John the Clown had been on the bus that night when it left the bar. But the footage showed him still in the bar, right after Joel went outside. So basically, if the clown was still in the bar, that means that the bus hadn't left yet, right? Therefore, when Joel went outside, the bus was still there. Plenty of people were still there. From the time that Joel left to when John left, it was around three and a half minutes.

• 52:39Annie Elise?

  So, not a huge amount of time, but plenty of time for a fight to happen and for Joel to be killed, and for the person or persons responsible for his death to get back on the bus and take off. Which, I mean, you have to admit, the prosecutors really did mess up on this major detail. That is huge. How could they not notice it? For the jurors, the prosecution's case had quite a few holes in it. And they thought that the prosecution came across as a little too confident, a little too cocky, almost as if they thought that the whole case would just be- Like, open shut kind of thing. But as the trial went on, the jurors started seeing issues with the timeline. And they felt like some parts of the investigation had been rushed.

• 53:20Annie Elise?

  They also wondered why investigators focused so heavily on examining Travis's costume, but never once examined the other guy's costumes. Another thing that the jurors took into account was that Travis came across as a sympathetic defendant of sorts. He studied nursing, he didn't seem like a violent guy. He could have actually been helping Joel not hurting him. It was confusing. So that likely played a role in how some of the jurors saw this case. Because think about it, if you were on the jury and you saw this young nursing student who never hurt anybody, who couldn't even remember what happened, could you imagine him doing all of that? Maybe, maybe not.

• 54:01Annie Elise?

  After everything, the witnesses, the experts, the two very different theories, the surveillance footage, all of it. The case finally then went to the jury. They spent about five hours talking it over. And finally, at 9:20 PM, they came back with their verdict. Travis's day was found not guilty. The courtroom erupted in screams of relief from Travis's side. His friends and family jumped up to congratulate one another, hugging and high fiving. His mom even turned to the jury and yelled, "Thank you, thank you", while his brother shouted, "It's done." Other members of his group could be heard yelling, "Everything's back to normal, we're done", which, can you, I mean, can you even imagine if that was your loved one?

• 54:45Annie Elise?

  Your son, your brother, or your friend? You'd probably react the same way. Because for them, it meant that he wasn't going to prison and he was facing a long time behind bars. So there was a lot to celebrate, a lot for them to be happy about. After almost a year of uncertainty and the possibility of a life sentence, I'm sure that they felt like it was a huge weight lifted off of their shoulders. Travis's attorneys also looked pretty relieved, too. And they said that the case started to shift when the jury heard the blood spatter analysis. But on the other side of the room, the mood felt completely different. Like night and day, the prosecution looked very disappointed and Joel's family did as well. This obviously was not the outcome that they had been hoping for at all.

• 55:29Annie Elise?

  They knew that it was going to be a difficult case, but they were confident that the evidence would speak for itself because the evidence physically connected Travis to Joel. And the lead investigator had said that nothing suggested that anybody else was involved except for Travis. So now Joel's family still didn't have the answers that they were looking for. Heather was absolutely devastated. She completely believed that Travis killed Joel that night. For her, the blood on his clothing was all the proof in the world that she needed. She questioned how Travis would have gotten blood on his crotch of his pants if he wasn't standing above Joel. How it would get there if he wasn't the killer. I mean, to her, it made no sense. Joel's first wife also attended the trial too and agreed with Heather that Travis was to blame.

• 56:14Annie Elise?

  There was no other explanation in their minds. And it's not like they blamed the police or the prosecutors, but in their eyes, the outcome did not match the evidence. And think about it too. I understand that it's not a slam dunk and it can be circumstantial, it can create reasonable doubt, but evidence aside, physical evidence aside, meaning the blood, he also got into two other fights that night or tried to get into a total of two other fights that night as well. So there was a pattern. There was a pattern in his behavior, but again, you could explain that away as, well, he never ended up getting into the fight in that alleyway or whatever went on with the hunter and they didn't remember it, like, which could create doubt in the jury's mind of like, was this truly possible?

• 56:58Annie Elise?

  Or, you know, not even possible, but concrete. It was devastating to all of Joel's family and friends and they still hope that someday justice will be served. And you might be wondering, okay, well, what ended up happening to Travis? Well, his life, it didn't just stop after the verdict. He never went back to nursing school, but he did decide to go to law school instead. And as of 2022, he works as a legal practitioner, which it makes you wonder if going through something like what he went through is what influenced his decision. I would argue that it probably did, right? At one point, Travis even apologized to Joel's family. He regretted all of his drinking that night and the role that he played, even though he says he didn't harm Joel.

• 57:43Annie Elise?

  And as for what he thinks happened? According to him, a group of five men from East Grand Forks were on the party bus that night, and he thinks that they may have been involved, but there isn't any proof. And that's what makes this case so incredibly frustrating because I can see both sides. I understand why the jury had reasonable doubt, absolutely, but I also see why Joel's family still has questions and thinks that they had the answer and that there wasn't justice in this case. But at the end of the day, Travis walked away a free man. He got a second chance, and Joel obviously never got that chance. So if Travis didn't kill Joel, who did? That's my question for you. Who do you think did?

• 58:28Annie Elise?

  And what really happened in the parking lot that night? I'm curious to hear your thoughts and see your comments. What do you think happened here? Do you think that Travis is the one responsible? He was just wasted? He was angry? He was combative? And there was just enough sliver of reasonable doubt that he got away with it? Or do you think that somebody else entirely got away with it? Because obviously, someone out there knows what really happened or saw something. And poor Joel, he was just trying to help someone out there, and he gets beat to death for it. It is awful. So let's hope at some point in time, you know, that the family gets justice because justice, although delayed, it is never too late to get.

• 59:11Annie Elise?

  So hopefully, somebody comes forward and says something, or there's a new lead or a tip. I don't know, but I can't imagine being Joel's loved ones and like feeling like you're so close to justice and you have the answers and then it being, you know, ripped away. But maybe it wasn't Travis. Again, that's why I want to know your comments and see what you think about it. So let me know in the comment section what you think, and I don't know, I'm curious to know. Thank you so much for tuning into another episode. I really appreciate it. I appreciate you guys being here. As a reminder, new episodes come out every Monday, Tuesday, Thursday, and every other Friday, and you can get even more bonus content, as always, on Patreon, patreon.com/annieleese. But I will be back on the mic with you very soon. Make sure to subscribe.

• 59:56Annie Elise?

  Follow me on socials. It's at underscore Annie Elise, all of the things, all of the places. And I will be back with you again very soon. Until the next one, be nice, don't kill people, and maybe ease up on the Jell-O shots and just like, you know, watch your drinking. Alright, guys, bye.

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