Ep. 666: MeatEater Radio Live! All Hands for Public Lands!

Hosts Ryan Callaghan, Brody Henderson, and Seth Morris call recently let-go BLM worker Ryan Schroeder, chat with David Willms about the state of the land-grab, learn some hot tips from listeners, and face the realities of methane beneath the ice with Bruce Kania of Floating Island International. Watch the live stream on the MeatEater Podcast Network YouTube channel. https://www.youtube.com/@MeatEaterPodcastNetwork Connect with The MeatEater Podcast Network https://www.youtube.com/@MeatEaterPodcastNetwork MeatEater on Instagram https://www.instagram.com/meateater, Facebook https://www.facebook.com/StevenRinellaMeatEater/, Twitter https://twitter.com/MeatEaterTV?ref_src=twsrc%5Egoogle%7Ctwcamp%5Eserp%7Ctwgr%5Eauthor, and YouTube https://www.youtube.com/@MeatEaterPodcastNetwork See omnystudio.com/listener https://omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Speaker 00

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• 0:04Steven Rinella?

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• 3:05Speaker 03

  Smell us now, lady. Welcome to Meat Eater Trivia, Meat Eater Podcast.

• 3:28Speaker 03

  Whoa, welcome to Meat Eater Radio Live. It's 11 a.m. Montana time and you're back in the Meat Eater studio. Joining me, I'm your host, by the way, joining me today, Brody Henderson.

• 3:41Speaker 04

  Hola.

• 3:43Speaker 03

  Seth Morris. Howdy. Lots of energy, keep it up, guys. Corey Calkins. And Phil is running this whole gig, as you already know. Today, we have a very special Meat Eater Radio Live where we're focusing on a topic near and dear to all of our hearts, which is public lands. We're going to talk about state lands and federal lands and get a general idea of what the heck is going on out there in this crazy world. We are going to check in with an ex BLM, a recently ex BLM. The body's still warm, folks. BLM, Rangeland ecologist to talk about layoffs.

• 4:28Speaker 03

  Then we're going to talk with our buddy David Willms, who is our go to legal source for all things public lands. Then. We're gonna have some fun with a hot tip off. And finally, we're gonna wrap up with another guest, who's the CEO of Floating Island International, Bruce Kania, who is gonna talk to us about methane, specifically in regards to the Ice House explosion that we covered on the meat eater.com. First, before we get into all of this,

• 5:11Speaker 03

  I guess we're gonna call this like Cal Unleashed. I just wanna like, set the stage on what we're tackling.

• 5:17Speaker 05

  Yeah, Cal, I actually made a drop for this, if that's okay.

• 5:19Speaker 03

  Ooh.

• 5:20Speaker 05

  Yeah, I don't know if you're gonna like it or not, but.

• 5:24Speaker 03

  Oh yeah, the music's perfect.

• 5:31Speaker 03

  Whoa, what was that at the end?

• 5:33Speaker 05

  Uh, that was System of a Down. That's kind of a deep cut. So, my ones hit me up.

• 5:38Speaker 06

  I was sitting in my office and heard Phil making this, and I was just like, you know what? Just Phil doing his thing in there, I'm not gonna be worried.

• 5:47Speaker 05

  I gave Chili a warning, but not Seth. I probably should've given the whole office a warning, so.

• 5:51Speaker 03

  You know, the Mountain Tough Fitness guys used to be like, my next door neighbor where I live before they moved into their new facility. And I'm an early riser, right? And I had to tell those guys, I'm like, you know, if you guys didn't play that type of music, I'd probably come over and work out, right? I'm like, can't you do like BBC News or something like that? Yeah.

• 6:14Speaker 03

  So, we've been listening to a lot of feedback. And tip of the hat here, there are people who read the comments on the YouTube channel, and Reddit, and all the other places, including email that you send in. So, we recently did a, it's a State of the Union type of podcast that we always do with TRCP. We have a new president, CEO at TRCP, Joel Peterson, who's a fine human. And the timing, the news cycle right now, is very, very fast paced. So, anytime you put something out, you risk it being dated.

• 6:59Speaker 03

  By the time it actually releases, right, the the gap between the recording time and the release time, a lot of things can happen. And we were in a spot where we were, I'd say we were like, kind of speculating on if there would be any more federal layoffs at the time of recording. And by the time that recording came out, there had been a lot of federal layoffs. So we want to tackle that head on today. And I'll just tell you right now, public lands, access to public lands, access to public wildlife, those are absolutely core to Meat Eater, to everybody who works here. And they just shouldn't be screwed with, man.

• 7:44Speaker 03

  And we're going to get into this deeper with with our first guest, but there's no slippage in those values here. And we care deeply about the stewards of the land, who often sacrifice at low pay and very little thanks to go out there and clear trails and and clean up, you know, government houses, those nice square government houses with the little pebble walls. They do a lot more than that. And the drop toilets. Yes, a lot more than that. So hopefully we'll get into more of that. I would say, and fellows, please chime in here, that I don't think it's unfair to say

• 8:27Speaker 03

  that there's like a general attack on public lands right now. And it is Widespread. Well, it's coming from both the state side of things and the federal side of things. And I, the only kind of disclaimer I would put in there is like, public lands as we know them. So.

• 8:49Speaker 03

  Right now with the layoffs that just recently went through like the group of people that those layoffs affected on in Bureau of Land Management, US Forest Service land that we use heavily here in Montana and throughout the West. Those are the folks that are doing the trail maintenance and the general cleanup that you see like covered in the news like the it ticks me off that like the scariest thing that some of these news outlets can come up with is like, so don't be surprised if there's trash at your campground when you show up.

• 9:26Speaker 04

  Yeah, I mean, there's also habitat work going on, research going on like it trickles down to every facet of hunting and fishing, right? Like everything and and other forms of outdoor recreation that are important, too. I mean, look like camping, rafting, whatever like.

• 9:46Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 9:46Speaker 04

  It affects everyone.

• 9:47Speaker 03

  Yeah, like your off-road vehicle.

• 9:50Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 9:50Speaker 03

  Stamp that you get like that goes directly to trails and campground maintenance.

• 9:57Speaker 04

  Mm hmm.

• 9:58Speaker 03

  Yep. Right? It's it's probably going to be a little beefed if you're a ATV or single track rider and those trails aren't maintained and your campgrounds are are don't have to worry about trash blowing around because you're not going to be able to get into them, period.

• 10:16Speaker 03

  So without further ado, I think and like we want to get into how you can wade into this this situation here. Certainly at the state level, you have every right and ability to contact all of your lawmakers from the governor to your state representatives to your congressional representatives. And if you're concerned about this stuff, you absolutely should be writing in, right? Like in the West, I'll tell you that small town economies are greatly impacted by USDA, Forest Service, Bureau of Rec, BLM employees.

• 11:00Speaker 04

  It shouldn't just be about the West, though.

• 11:03Speaker 03

  No.

• 11:03Speaker 04

  You know, because back east, there are millions of people that live within spitting distance of national forests, national parks, you know, all kinds of federally managed land. So it's it's not just a Western issue.

• 11:15Speaker 03

  Yeah, and you can absolutely agree.

• 11:19Speaker 03

  Like, um, we're based on, uh, having your cake and eat it too here in America. Okay? You can agree on some things our elected officials are doing and be diametrically opposed to other things that they are doing. And that is absolutely okay. In fact, it's completely normal. So when you call your elected representatives, um, when you hold their feet to the fire, you can say, hey, I love what you're doing over here. Keep it up. However, what you're doing over here has giant negative impacts that you don't even understand. And you need to stop or you need to change, uh, the pace at which you're, you're pushing this stuff. So, um, yeah.

• 12:04Speaker 04

  How'd your, uh, day go yesterday, Kyle?

• 12:07Speaker 03

  Oh, that's a good question. Yeah. So we did a rally for public lands at the Montana State Capitol, uh, Helena, Montana. Uh, I always like to point out when I go up there that, uh, um, behind Capitol Hill in Helena, uh, is a chunk of BLM. And my grandpa, he grew, grew up there at the base of that BLM chunk. And that was his last trap line.

• 12:28Speaker 04

  Oh, nice.

• 12:28Speaker 03

  Was on that chunk of BLM, uh, up above the Capitol. Um,

• 12:33Speaker 04

  Big crowd there?

• 12:35Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 12:35Speaker 04

  Loud crowd?

• 12:36Speaker 03

  It was a loud crowd. Um, you know, unfortunately we didn't see a whole lot of lawmakers in the room, but I guarantee you they could hear us. So we had some really killer, um, speakers and just a really good show of support, uh, for our public lands here in Montana, both state and federally managed. So that was really cool. And, and gang, I gotta tell you, like showing up physically and being in these places when there's a call is really, really important. I mean, it makes a big impact. It's a very hard thing to ignore. I told the crowd yesterday that if I was a,

• 13:17Speaker 03

  Anti-public lands representative, I'd be scared shitless of being in that room. Like, I mean, you're talking about some dedicated people and you look in their eyes and you just know this stuff's important and you shouldn't mess with it.

• 13:31Speaker 04

  Yep.

• 13:32Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 13:32Speaker 03

  Yeah. Yeah. Hard to replace that. Um, so, uh, are you guys ready to get to our first interview here?

• 13:40Speaker 04

  Sure.

• 13:40Speaker 03

  All right. So Ryan Schroeder is a fella that I've met a handful of times, uh, over the years. And a real interesting story, but he caught old Dr. Randall Williams' attention the other day, uh, because he posted on, on Instagram about, uh, being laid off. And, um, I think it's a story worth hearing. So we'd like to get, uh, Ryan. Well, there he is.

• 14:08Speaker 07

  There I am. Can you see me, guys?

• 14:10Speaker 03

  Yeah, we got you.

• 14:11Speaker 07

  Awesome. Good to see you guys. Thanks for, uh, thanks for having me on. I really appreciate the time and, uh, and your willingness to talk about this. So thank you.

• 14:19Speaker 03

  Where you at?

• 14:20Speaker 07

  Um, I am in Mankas, Colorado. So, um, just, uh, between Cortez and Durango right now. Um, yeah, far southwest Colorado, um, around, I think, uh, hunting units 72, 71 and 711. So, uh, for those of Colorado folks, I know you, Brody. So I'll, I'm gonna do my best not to burn any spots.

• 14:40Speaker 04

  There a time or two.

• 14:41Speaker 07

  Just a time or two. Yeah. Um, so yeah, thank you guys for having me on.

• 14:45Speaker 03

  What's the, uh, the population of Mankas, Colorado?

• 14:48Speaker 07

  Oh gosh, are we including cattle in that population too or, uh, and mule deer? Oh gosh, I think Mankas is right about 1800 folks. Uh, last I checked, yeah, I, uh, I just moved, well, plus two now. I just moved here back in, uh, December from, uh, from Missoula, actually. So, so you guys have me did your live when you came last year.

• 15:07Speaker 03

  Oh, thank you. So, uh, let's just get down to it. What, what made you go down the path of being a parasite on the government payroll?

• 15:17Speaker 07

  Oh, geez. Um, uh, yeah. Well, for, to correct you first.

• 15:21Speaker 03

  That's what I see in the news.

• 15:23Speaker 07

  Yeah, supposedly. Um, yeah. So I was, um, I don't know the right tensing to use, uh, cause I was fired. I've never been fired before. Um, but was fired on Tuesday. Um, but I was a range and management specialist, not a range and decolages. Those are two different job series titles. Um, uh, for the Bureau of Land Management, uh, here based out of the Trace Rios Field Office, uh, here in Dolores, Colorado.

• 15:48Speaker 03

  That's three rivers, Seth.

• 15:51Speaker 07

  Yeah, see.

• 15:51Speaker 03

  I got, yeah, I got.

• 15:53Speaker 07

  See, um, but yeah, so, uh, yeah, range and management specialist, uh, out of the Trace Rios Field Office, but also had it. Duties with the Canyon of the Ancients National Monument. So that's just north of Cortez, Colorado. And so, yeah, gosh, where to start? Why I got interested in wanting to, uh, work for the federal government and the Bureau of Land Management in particular. Um, you know, I always wanted to serve my country. Um, when I was in high school, I wanted to, I ended up wanting to be in the Marine Corps or the Army. And, uh, but I ended up being medically denied, uh, when I was getting out of high school and wanted to go down that path.

• 16:34Speaker 07

  But still like was interested in agriculture, habitat, hunting, fishing, et cetera. And so went to school at Purdue University, did kind of a generic natural resource environmental sciences degree. But got specialized in soils and vegetation, things like that. And, uh,

• 16:54Speaker 07

  I got introduced to hunting out. So I grew up in Indiana. Um, so, you know, corn, soybeans, agriculture, um, thickets with trees with good whitetail populations and frog ponds for fishing. Um, but I had a friend of my dad's friend had a grip on a ranch out by Reed Point, Montana, and took me out. They're hunting when I was like eight, 10 years, I think 10 years old and killed my first deer out there and. Oh, I can see further than like around the next corn field and stuff. So, uh, that always was trickling in the back of my mind. And in high school, went out hunting around, uh, Laramie and Wheatland, Wyoming, a lot for pronghorn. That's, uh, 2013, uh, pronghorn up there behind me.

• 17:34Speaker 07

  Out of Wheatland area and yeah, I was just like, wait, people manage this stuff? Like, I don't know, like, do people do anything with this? Or can, like, it's not like row crop ag. I don't know what do you do other than ranch it? And how does that work? Um, so doing work at Purdue University, got introduced with a couple of land trusts, with habitat work on restoring prairies and oak savannas. Then, um, got a chance to work for the US Forest Service and the Bighorn National Forest out of Buffalo, Wyoming, uh, as a range tech, as a seasonal position 2016, 2017. I thought it was chaos, um, in 2016 or 2017, getting back to work with them.

• 18:15Speaker 07

  Um, but, uh, that got me just so induced, like, this is range. Range isn't the top of the stove. Range is habitat work, is livestock, is wildlife, is this nexus of agriculture, conservation, and wildlife issues. Figuring out how do plants and soils and water and animals interact on the landscape? How can we manage it, uh, to, you know, achieve the objectives that we want out on the ground and do good habitat work to be able to have all these different things out on the ground? Um, and do all these different, you know, recreation, hunting, fishing, hiking, um, and also other extractive uses, like livestock grazing is an extractive use.

• 18:57Speaker 07

  We've got mining, um, oil and gla- gas exploration, et cetera. And so I ended up doing my masters at Colorado State University, doing work funded by the Bureau of Land Management and the US Forest Service in western Colorado out by Grand Junction and a couple of the national conservation areas over there, as well as up north of, uh, Hayden, Colorado, uh, northwest of Steamboat Springs, in a beautiful area that I'm not going to say the name of it.

• 19:23Speaker 04

  Don't say it.

• 19:24Speaker 07

  You know what I'm, you know what I'm talking about? Teddy Roosevelt was there. Um, uh, but, uh. Yeah, so be working in in beautiful landscapes with amazing people who care about stewardship of our public resources because like I said, I grew up in Indiana, surrounded by private land and got exposed to, you know, all the lands that we lands and resources that we all own as Americans and just like, oh, man, these people do cool work and are doing good, important work to steward our lands. And so did my masters at Colorado State, then got funding from the USDA Natural Resources Conservation Service to do a PhD, started it down in New Mexico State University in 2020.

• 20:10Speaker 07

  Working on the Hornado Experimental Range down there, as well as working with the NRCS to develop a tool on the Web Soil Survey. It's a soil interpretation to help us better restore rangelands through active seeding and rangeland seeding activities. And so been in academia, been in school for 11 years and working with agencies who get out and do work on the grounds. Like, I don't want to be in academia. I don't want to be on my computer as much as I have in the past so many years. And my interactions with our public land stewards and and the private people that we work with, or that public land stewards work with, just made me want to get in to do that hands-on, on-the-ground work. Not being here is like, oh, I'm

• 20:54Speaker 07

  here to the government to tell you what to do. I am here to help you solve problems, help us steward our national natural heritage for current generations and for the future from this multiple multiple-use mission that the different agencies have from Federal Lands Policy Management Act, FLIPMA. And, yes, that's having those skills, that knowledge in rangeland ecology, soils, vegetation, et cetera.

• 21:26Speaker 03

  And when you talk about rangeland, right, like that, that term is is particular to grazing allotments. It's not like rangeland for deer and elk. You're out there.

• 21:38Speaker 07

  Exactly. Yeah.

• 21:39Speaker 03

  Like that NRCS-funded reseeding project, that's to put more grass on the ground.

• 21:47Speaker 03

  For cattle, for private enterprise.

• 21:50Speaker 07

  For that, but also just for keeping our lands and soils healthy, for keeping our soils where they're supposed to be and managing for the watershed resource. Managing for all these different resource ranges, such an interdisciplinary program and that, yeah, our mission or our project area, program area and range has been for first and foremost, because of the Taylor Grazing Act that was passed in 1934 to help solve some of the issues that had happened from the 1800s and westward expansion and the overgrazing of just open range.

• 22:23Speaker 07

  We now have grazing back in 34, 1934, soon enough to be 2034, geez.

• 22:30Speaker 07

  But to at least permit and authorize and have terms and conditions set out for private citizens to

• 22:39Speaker 07

  through a regulated way, graze lot, domestic livestock, whether that be cattle or sheep. Primarily in my field off, in the field office I've been working with was primarily cattle, was primarily cattle.

• 22:53Speaker 07

  Was to, yeah, get, produce food and fiber for the American people on our public range lands, but do it in a responsible way. A balanced way to do, to, to look at other resources and make sure that we minimize conflict. Mitigate and minimize negative environmental impact of this, of this, of this primary use that's you guys have talked about before within multiple use missions of grazing as, as one of those primary tenants of a authorized use or a use on public lands, but it's so much more than just grazing and keeping grass on for cattle. It's for soil health. It's for wildlife habitat.

• 23:37Speaker 07

  I mean, we, we are here to advocate or we were, I don't know what the tense to use because I was fired so recently. Terminated and not laid off. I was, it was a termination is how it is written in my termination letter.

• 23:51Speaker 03

  And can you, I'm sorry, Ryan, to interrupt you there, but you know, we were hearing the terms terminated, layoff, furloughed. What's the difference between terminated and furloughed?

• 24:01Speaker 07

  So furloughed is so say March 14th, Pi Day, we've got coming up the continuing resolution that we're currently acting under ends. And so say if I was still, if I were to be furloughed, I would still be on paper, an employee of the Bureau of Land Management and anybody who working for the failed government, who is not a essential employee as designated as such, would be not able to work, not permitted to work, can't touch a dang thing, your government phone, your email account, etc. But then, once funding would be restored, they would be paid

• 24:42Speaker 07

  for, you know, what they did for, for the, they would be paid and still stay on with the agency that they working for. I, as of Tuesday, February the 18th, was terminated after less than 60 days of being with the Bureau of Land Management here in Colorado. I, by the end of the day on Tuesday, like two hours after I got the notice from my supervisor, I lost access to my work email, I lost access to my work phone, I had to turn all of my badges and everything back in. I was, the letter was actually dated for February the 14th, everything out, like, everybody,

• 25:23Speaker 07

  like, a lot of the other people who were terminated in this way, so. And I was terminated because I was a probationary employee. I had less than a year in service. I had started with, uh, I'd started on December 30th, 2024. And so after finishing.

• 25:43Speaker 03

  Sorry, I mean, you're, you're a highly educated dude, motivated guy, going, you know, learning a lot, you got a lot of credentials behind you, I mean, far more than I ever will, if I'm being frank, but.

• 25:56Speaker 07

  They're just, they're just, they're just letters and it's just experience. So it's, I don't know, school of hard knocks and whatever.

• 26:01Speaker 03

  Uh, so I mean, you're, you're gonna find another gig, another job.

• 26:05Speaker 07

  I hope so, yeah. I hope to be reinstated. I want to get, like, I'm trying to appeal this to get reinstated because the reason that they used in my termination letters, like.

• 26:17Speaker 07

  Apparently, my skills and qualifications do not meet the needs of the department is what it is, how it is stated in my termination letter.

• 26:28Speaker 04

  What, Ryan, can I, like, I don't know if you can speculate or not, but what would, what do you see, like, high level, like, easy to explain the impact of not having range managers on the landscape?

• 26:44Speaker 07

  Yeah, um, gosh, that's a big question, high level. So, our primary focus in the range group is to use science and the law to administer grazing permits on public land. So, working with private citizens, like I said, and private ranches to graze livestock on public rangelands. And there's a whole set of terms and conditions and a whole process, administrative process, that that goes through to make sure that, um, we go through the NEPA process, the National Environmental Policy Act, for it is a proposed action on public lands and could have environmental impact. So, we bring in wildlife managers, recreation folks, hydrology, etc., whenever

• 27:25Speaker 07

  we go through and we renew, fully process a grazing permit. And that's so, and to be able to adapt to whatever the conditions are out on the ground, these permits renew, are supposed to be renewed every 10 years, or whenever a permit is base lease expires. And so, where there's also an option, based upon, I think, a law passed in the 90s, that we are legally, or we were, the BLM is, sorry, BLM is legally obligated to authorize, or to issue grazing permits. And so, there's a way to just renew the, renew the, renew the permit without changing anything, which is all well and good, but what if that land's not meeting land health standards?

• 28:10Speaker 04

  That's kind of what I was getting at. Like, is there a situation in which this would result in not only degraded grazing conditions for cattle, but also degraded wildlife habitat for mule deer and elk and sage grouse and bird, like, on and on and on?

• 28:27Speaker 07

  Yeah. So, like, for example, we were, but, I'm sorry, I'm getting fired up here. I'll calm down. I wonder why I'm fired up. So we, in my office, so it was myself and another new range management specialist who, he had just started in October, but had come over after two years within being in a range management specialist in Nevada. And we were working up, in addition to our permanent range technician, prioritization plans to go do land health assessments and figure out and develop a prioritization strategy for the grazing permits that are expiring this year to renew them and fully process as many of them as we could, but also do that, you know, no change in terms and conditions where it made sense.

• 29:13Speaker 07

  We have a two, because the person who I was hired for retired a year or two ago. It took the office at least a year and a half to fill my position. And there's a year, there's two years worth of backlogs of land health assessments and grazing permit renewals that we were getting geared up to do this year. It was going to be forty, thirty more days or more days in the field, bringing out also our wildlife folks, our hydrology people, et cetera, in our interdisciplinary team that we have to have out in the field to look at land health is grazing a cause of if, if land health standards are not being met, if not, great.

• 29:56Speaker 07

  If so, how can that change be mitigated and go through that NEPA, that NEPA, the National Environmental Policy Act process? It is down to one person, one, one range and management specialist and one range technician to try to fill that bat, that two years worth of backlog. I mean, with three of us, it was going to be a daunting task with two of them, and I don't like, they are the next ones on the chopping block. Because we hear that this is not the end of what is to come.

• 30:28Speaker 03

  Well, and like to point out, like, the other side of this is, is the, the quote unquote consumer, right? Like, folks want those grazing leases badly because they're the cheapest grazing lease you can possibly get. Right? It's like a dollar thirty-five per AUM.

• 30:45Speaker 07

  It's the one thing that has not changed with inflation and has not changed since 1996, about as old as I am. I'll be, I was born ninety-five, so.

• 30:52Speaker 04

  There's a lot of people in this country getting their steaks from that land, so to speak. You know what I mean?

• 30:57Speaker 07

  Yeah.

• 30:57Speaker 04

  Their steaks and their burger.

• 30:59Speaker 07

  Yes, sir. And not just, not just beef burgers, but venison, elk.

• 31:04Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 31:05Speaker 07

  Everything like, and so we were working up, we had new direction as of October to start prioritizing grazing permit renewals, fully processed renewals in gunnison sage grouse habitat because here uh over in Canyon of the Ancients National Monument and up north at Disappointment Valley, um Natarita area, um there's a lot of, there's gunnison sage grouse habitat and grazing permits in those areas that we were given direction from, from the last minute, or we were given direction from to begin prioritizing, catching up with land health assessments, grazing permit renewals to be able to adaptively manage grazing permits or help work with the private

• 31:49Speaker 07

  permittees to adaptively manage to make sure that those species are not further imperiled by what's happening out on the ground. And so-

• 31:56Speaker 03

  It's interesting, I mean, every program that you've mentioned has been uh at minimum put on uh funding freeze, NRCS is, you know, that really if you looked at NRCS, it, it wouldn't be disingenuous to call it the largest conservation program in the world. Not, not just the United States or North America, but like the world. Um, and that's something that, that helps out people on the private side of the fence tremendously. Um, just like we talked about grazers right here. So, um, we gotta get going. Um, just out of curiosity, and if you're not willing to share this, it's a little bit like uh looking at you with

• 32:39Speaker 03

  your pants down, but what uh, what were you getting paid as a new Rangeland specialist?

• 32:46Speaker 07

  Yeah, so I was brought in as a GS 11 step one, brand new um federal employee. I was making um about seventy-three thousand if I would have, seventy-three thousand dollars annually would have been my salary. Um, yeah.

• 33:01Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 33:02Speaker 07

  So, um-

• 33:03Speaker 03

  And, and what, what's next, next for you? Told me earlier it's rabbit season.

• 33:09Speaker 07

  It's rabbit season here's wrapping up. Um, you know, I've been trying to figure out when to get use some of the little leave that I had accrued over my short less than 60 days um to figure out when to go down to hunt my javelina tag down in southern New Mexico. Um, I think I might be able to do a little bit more planning to go down and hunt that tag. Um, after that, um, I just, I want to get reinstated. Um, I want to appeal this. I don't think this is right. I'm worried about the mission of, I mean, if I get, if I get, if I don't get rehired, so be it. Um.

• 33:45Speaker 03

  Keep fighting, man.

• 33:46Speaker 07

  I worry, I, you guys keep fighting too. Hold the line. This is, we need, it, this is important and this is not the end of it. And things need to, people need to know what is happening out on the ground. It's not just trash. It's not just, whatever it is, our habitat, our public resource, our natural heritage at risk for a mission that is supposedly changing that is not due to the public's will.

• 34:16Speaker 07

  Or at least not being played out in a public process right now. Um, and I worry about what is to come next for my, for, for my coworkers. If they're gonna, if more people are gonna get laid off, like they're already on a skeleton crew. What's gonna happen if more people get, get terminated or people lose faith in the agency and, and go, what does that mean for the next? Um, that's what worries me. I, I'll be okay. I, I think, um, I, I, I don't know what this sets up for, for the future of our public resources and our natural and national heritage. Well, and our stewardship of these lands.

• 34:58Speaker 03

  I, I, it's, it's hard to hear, man. I, I think, um, I, I appreciate you coming on.

• 35:04Speaker 07

  Appreciate you guys asking.

• 35:05Speaker 03

  Tremendously and, and, uh, we'll, we'll keep sending you good thoughts and, and hope you do get reinstated. Um, you know, it's a good example of what's going on right now. Um, things are moving really fast. Uh, and, and I think at the end of the day, people just need to understand that, uh, no matter how you voted, the vote's over. Right? What matters is what you do from now forward every single day. And it's absolutely, absolutely okay and within your power to say, hey.

• 35:36Speaker 03

  This particular thing I do not agree with. Right? So, um, thanks a bunch, Ryan, and, um, uh, keep me posted. Hopefully we'll have you back on with some good news at, at, at some point.

• 35:49Speaker 07

  We'll see. I, well, I guess I'm speaking in a personal capacity right now. We, once, if I were to get brought back on, I have to run it by my soup.

• 35:59Speaker 07

  I, yeah, appreciate you guys having me on, Brody, Seth, good meeting you guys, Phil.

• 36:03Speaker 04

  Yeah, thanks for talking to us.

• 36:05Speaker 03

  Thank you. You know, I, I hate asking a fella how much he makes, but when you're in a town of 1,800 people, that's a, that's a significant, uh, salary to remove out of that economy.

• 36:18Speaker 04

  Sure. And I mean, there's more to it than that even, you know?

• 36:24Speaker 03

  Oh, absolutely.

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• 39:31Speaker 03

  So, running a little bit behind schedule, but we're going to get to the hard facts of the law with David Wels, who's our very next guest. He forgot his hair gel today.

• 39:45Speaker 08

  I did. No, it's, I've got lots of it in me.

• 39:50Speaker 08

  I'm just glad I, I'm just glad I have hair.

• 39:53Speaker 03

  So, David, if it's all right with you, I'd love to just get an update on what the heck's going on with the Utah lawsuit. And then go from there and just kind of talk about where this land transfer...

• 40:11Speaker 03

  Sell off movement is, I can give you some feedback on the Montana side of things, but I know Wyoming, where you are a resident, has some stuff in Moeshaun and I think starting with Utah would be a great, great place.

• 40:25Speaker 08

  Sure, I'm happy to do that. Thanks for having me on. I appreciate it. So last time I was with you guys, the Utah lawsuit was still active, right? Meaning they had this case before the United States Supreme Court. They were asking for the Supreme Court to accept jurisdiction of the case. And we were talking, we were speculating what might happen. Well, in January, the United States Supreme Court, in a 12-word order, declined to accept jurisdiction of the case, which all that really means is they said it doesn't warrant us taking on what's called original jurisdiction. It doesn't warrant us taking the case yet. They didn't say that there was no case there. They didn't say that they

• 41:10Speaker 08

  might not hear it again in the future. They just said in 12 words, "Not now." Case would decline to exercise jurisdiction. So because of that, that case goes away. But the way I've described this to people, to use a bit of a football analogy, which might be a little late now that we've passed the Super Bowl, but I think it works, was that Utah threw their Hail Mary on the first play of the game, right? Instead of the last play of the game, meaning they took a run at the Supreme Court, knowing very well that the likelihood of the court accepting the case was exceptionally low. And all that means now is if they want

• 41:52Speaker 08

  this lawsuit to proceed, to go forward, they're going to have to file it and go through the normal course and procedure, which means filing it in federal district court, which is what we really expect will probably happen in the coming months, weeks, months. Don't know how long it'll take, but would fully expect that at some point we'll see a new lawsuit filed in federal district court. And then we're just operating under the playbook. Now the game's happening, like to use that football analogy, right? We had the Hail Mary, it dropped incomplete in the end zone, and now they're going to the playbook and they're playing the game. And that's what I would expect would happen going forward. We'll probably see a new lawsuit filed in federal district court.

• 42:36Speaker 08

  And then we'll have to go through the normal process of motions to dismiss, motions for summary judgment, and you know, all the things that come with with litigation.

• 42:45Speaker 04

  And is there there any expected timeline on them supplying that to the lower court?

• 42:54Speaker 08

  And they can really do it whenever they want. When I say it could be weeks or months, I mean, it really can be any time. I don't think I've seen anything publicly indicating when that might come. It's just when they're ready. They'll have to, you know, I suspect they learned some things. They floated some legal theories and I think some of those legal theories, folks were able to poke some holes in. And, you know, in that Supreme Court filing. And so I could see them going back and making some changes to that complaint and maybe pleading this case a little bit differently. I don't know what it, I mean, the end result would be asking for roughly the same thing, I suspect, but the the legal arguments to get there might, they might tweak those a little bit. So it just depends on how long it takes for them, you know, to do that and

• 43:39Speaker 08

  and when they decide the timing is right for them to refile.

• 43:43Speaker 04

  Dave, is there any former former examples of these kinds of cases where we can like kind of base what we think should happen in the next round, not necessarily what will, but what should based on what's happened in the past?

• 44:03Speaker 08

  You mean like, sorry to ask it another way, but you mean like the attempt to get to the Supreme Court, that being denied?

• 44:12Speaker 04

  Or in a federal district court, just just another, an example of another lawsuit like this that turned out a certain way? Or is this just like, who knows what's going to happen?

• 44:25Speaker 08

  I like, I view this as a, I mean, you don't know what's going to happen, although I would say that there's a lot of federal case law out there talking about. The the ability of the federal government to own and manage federal lands like there there's 200 years of precedent out there that Utah is going to somehow have to explain away. And I think we we talked about it before, what the narrow angle they were taking was, which is, you know, that that despite this 200 years of precedent, it was all those cases were doing was confirming that the federal government could manage and and manage those lands exclusively. But that maybe there it didn't actually address the question of could

• 45:09Speaker 08

  they hold on to those lands in perpetuity. And and so that that's the the narrow question they're trying to to force into the discussion. But man, there's a lot of case law out there talking about the federal government having the absolute authority to manage public lands and to own public lands. So it's tough. It's a tough. It's going to be a tough case.

• 45:30Speaker 03

  One one good thing that I see here is when these things come up, they kind of boil over and they become so in the past, so socially unacceptable to mess with these big chunks of federally managed public lands that are managed on behalf of all of us and and they're America's playground. Plus, it's where a lot of Americans make their living, both in the private sector and in in the public sector. We're seeing efforts in several states, states

• 46:10Speaker 03

  that have joined the the lawsuit on on behalf of Utah, and bills being introduced in different legislative sessions. And and to me, like, the positive there is being able to say, like, oh, that's, that's the person that we need to have a good conversation with, because they are going to be on the wrong side of history. So I kind of like when this stuff pops up in a way, because it flushes out folks with with bad ideas.

• 46:45Speaker 08

  Yeah, I mean, I think you're right. I also think there's the timing of this discussion is perfect. So I don't know if you've talked about this or seen this, but yesterday Colorado College released a conservation in the West poll. They do this poll every year and it's they're they're polling voters in in the West, particularly the Intermountain West, on a host of conservation issues. And one of the questions that they were asked was about transfer of lands to from states or from the federal government to states. And 67% of respondents oppose that across the West in the aggregate. And in Utah, it's 57%. So even in Utah, that's leading the charge on this. 57% of the voters, it

• 47:30Speaker 08

  doesn't matter political party, oppose transfer. And so to your point of of these bills coming up in state and, you know, seeing who's sponsoring them, who's behind the bills, I think that matters because the public doesn't want to see this happen, right? The this data is, you know, just like I said, just released yesterday, which confirms, you know, the poll from last year and the poll from the year before. And you can go back and look at polls over time. It's pretty consistent. The public doesn't want to see federal lands transferred. There's a there's an accountability piece here, an opportunity and educational opportunity and accountability opportunity in some of these states.

• 48:11Speaker 03

  Yeah. And who's who holds people accountable?

• 48:14Speaker 08

  Voters. You got it.

• 48:15Speaker 03

  That's right. That's right. So what what's happening in Wyoming, David?

• 48:21Speaker 08

  What isn't happening in Wyoming? Jeez. So I could talk about a couple of the things. So there was a bill and this one or sorry, excuse me, a joint resolution. And this one actually died recently, but it it made it pretty far on the Senate side, which proposed transferring all federal lands in the state to the state, including Grand Teton National Park. So everything except Yellowstone. And that that did ultimately die in the Senate on second or third reading. I think it was, I mean, it was a narrow, narrow margin. Then you have a couple of

• 49:03Speaker 08

  others. There's been a bill there to, and this one, I believe, is still alive. And it would require, if you're a private landowner, You own your own property and you want to sell that property. And the buyer that's interested in that property is the federal government. Under this bill, the state legislature would have to approve that sale. You could not sell your private land to the federal government without the state legislature's approval. And that bill, to my understanding, is still alive. And it's rooted in this concept of the state wanting to have a no net gain of federal lands in the state. And then there's one other thing I'd mention in state, and this one's not a bill. And this one's pretty quiet.

• 49:45Speaker 08

  And this is like, I mentioned this because it's something I think people should be aware of because it could happen in any number of states. But I'm sure you've talked about this before on your podcasts and I'm sure listeners know. There was a parcel of land in Grand Teton National Park that was owned by the state of Wyoming. That late last year was sold to the Park Service for $100 million. 640 acres, a section that was bordered on. I think it was on two sides by the Park Service, one side by the National Elk Refuge and one side by the National Forest. So it was just transferred to the federal government.

• 50:27Speaker 08

  Which was a great deal for Wyoming to get $100 million out of it. And it was a great deal for the Park Service to ensure that that land wouldn't be sold or subdivided or developed. Now, the state wants to package that $100 million and an additional. I can't remember the exact number, 48 or 50 million from a sale that occurred about 10 years ago of another parcel in the park. And they want to put a proposal, in fact, I think they may have already submitted the proposal to the Bureau of Land Management. To purchase 10,000 acres of BLM land in northeast Wyoming with that money. And I think that's pretty quiet. I don't think there's been a lot of press about that.

• 51:07Speaker 08

  And it's something I note because there is a process under the Federal Land Policy Management Act. For transferring federal lands or selling federal lands if it's in the national interest. And I suspect there's going to be a pitch that this sale would be considered in the national interest. It's an acreage that's large enough that it would require notification to Congress.

• 51:36Speaker 08

  But I don't think it requires approval of Congress. It's one of those where you provide a notification to Congress and if Congress, if one chamber of Congress doesn't oppose within 30 days to the transaction, then they can move forward with it. Now, there are other things that have to happen. They've got to comply with the National Environmental Policy Act, probably have to do an EIS. It could be environmental impact statement. It could be years before that happens, but it's an example of using existing processes and something kind of behind the scenes to effectuate pretty significant land transfers.

• 52:06Speaker 03

  And I think that's something that everybody needs to be aware of, like land transfer sales of publicly managed ground, they do occur and they have for a long time. And sometimes there's some gains as well. But everybody needs to be aware that they can weigh in on those. They have a vested interest in saying, whoa, that doesn't work for me, or this does.

• 52:33Speaker 04

  And they can frame it in a way that's not, it's not like a seizure, right? Like it's kind of like willing seller, willing buyer type thing. Like they can frame it that way. And, you know, it's harder to fight that, I think.

• 52:47Speaker 03

  No, absolutely. Absolutely. You want me to hit you with some Montana stuff, David?

• 52:53Speaker 08

  Yeah, and then I might punt it right back to you to answer it.

• 52:56Speaker 03

  Well, I mean, things that I think people should know about, right? So as we talk, the debate on land transfer is, I'm sorry, Brody's got a party in his pants over here. The debate on land transfer always edges towards, well, the state, state will manage it better. And I kind of kick that back and say, well, it's not actually about management. The fear is that the state will have to sell these lands if they were to actually get ownership of them for a bunch of reasons. Most of them would be just tackling any sort

• 53:40Speaker 03

  of budget deficits that would come up in the future.

• 53:44Speaker 03

  So, right now in the state of Montana, we had a, and I feel strongly that most of our politicians really know that land transfer, land sell-off, reducing public land, public access, is not something that's going to get you elected. But we did see a, you know, a Montana state-funded, i.e. the taxpayer-funded, um, program get put into place this year that would assess all state lands and identify lands to sell. And then, uh, right now, we have, uh, what

• 54:27Speaker 03

  is it? HB 379, House Bill 379, which would, uh, essentially just streamline the process of selling state lands. And then, most recently, um, and this kind of goes into the social side of things, like, our governor was just quoted in a Wall Street Journal opinion piece that, uh, is very land transfer privatization adjacent, but just the fact that he's quoted in there makes me nervous. Right? And, and it's this, I, this conglomeration of state lands and federally public, federally managed public lands are the same. And, and in a lot

• 55:12Speaker 03

  of ways, it's like apples to coombequats, right? Like, we're, we're not in the same ballpark. We're, they're, they're very different. Um, and then, on top of that, we have a bill that hasn't seen the light of day yet, but I think it is one of those things that, uh, hasn't quite gotten out into the light because they, they're afraid of the social repercussions. Um, Rep. Tommy Millet of Marion, Montana, has, uh, LC 2912, which is a draft, but it would be supporting, uh, Utah's lawsuit. So, straight up, support of land transfer going through, uh, the Montana State Legislature, which hasn't been there. Uh, we haven't seen

• 55:57Speaker 03

  it yet. But, all of this to say...

• 56:02Speaker 03

  On the federal side of things, we're dealing with some very challenging times regarding our public lands. And that, those challenges are going to have repercussions in the way that we experience public lands right now. The same stuff that we've been talking about. Bathrooms, campgrounds, road maintenance, trail maintenance, down to Ryan that we just talked to is like, it's possible that our rangeland that create, you know, tall grass makes fat cattle, but it also makes, you know, awesome horn growth on big gnarly mule deer

• 56:43Speaker 03

  bucks, right? It's possible that just that soil and rangeland could be affected, like down, down to that level. At the state level, we're seeing movement to acquire slash dispose of public land. What's your sense of the landscape right now?

• 57:08Speaker 08

  Yeah, I mean, you summed it up pretty well. There's, I would say some antagonistic behavior in various states, Montana, Wyoming, Utah, Arizona are, are right at the top of the list, from, you know, the state, state level, pursuing policies that would encourage federal land transfer. I think you also have to look to what's going on in DC as well. The things that have happened or the things that haven't happened yet, but could. And it's sort of a, this would be a call to say, hey, keep your eyes out for some of this stuff. You know, you might've heard, you know, everybody's probably seen news reports

• 57:52Speaker 08

  about, you know, reconciliation and, and what it looks like for, for pursuing the, the president's policy agenda and getting, you know, through this reconciliation process and getting tax cuts made permanent. I'll use that example because that's the one that's directly correlated here. You know, he had the, the 2017 tax cuts during his first presidency and he wants to Wants to make those permanent and maybe add some additional cuts. And when you have tax cuts, you have to be able to pay for that lost revenue. You have to offset that revenue. And one of the ideas that I've seen floated around is using this. You know, I think somebody estimated $200 trillion asset that is our federal lands.

• 58:36Speaker 08

  Using some of those to help offset the, the, um, you, you, you know, like selling those to offset the, the tax cuts.

• 58:45Speaker 04

  Well, there, there's.

• 58:45Speaker 08

  I don't know if I'll make it in there, but, but those conversations are certainly happening behind closed doors.

• 58:50Speaker 04

  Well, there's, there's precedent for that at the state level, right? Like there, there are plenty of states that don't have any state owned public land because they sold them all to, to.

• 59:04Speaker 03

  Every single state has less state land than they started with.

• 59:07Speaker 04

  Right. And they use that to do whatever, fund the government. Um, so it's, it's almost like taking that to the national level, right?

• 59:19Speaker 08

  Yeah. I mean, at, at the state level, the, the difference here is at the state level, all of these states received these parcels of land and were constitutionally obligated to maximize the revenue off of those acres. And the maximizing of the revenue off of those acres sometimes meant selling those. I mean, the state of Utah still has, uh, I think every six months they hold s- sales of state trust lands. And the idea is you maximize the revenue for your public schools and hospitals and universities, depending on the state and the constitution. So there's this constitutional obligation that has led to the selling off of a lot of that land estate. You don't have that obligation at the federal level.

• 1:00:03Speaker 08

  Uh, so it's, it's, it's a little bit, um, disconcerting, uh, that, that those, that we're now talking, you know, I haven't, I don't, I'm not going to call it mainstream. I don't think it's mainstream. I think most people, even at the federal level in Congress, oppose this idea of selling off the federal estate or transferring it.

• 1:00:21Speaker 04

  Well, you know, what's interesting though, David, is if you look at, like Utah's a great example. Like if you look at the revenue generated, uh, you know, Utah, like taxes, um.

• 1:00:34Speaker 03

  As most states do, right? They tax oil and gas extraction, mining in a much different way than the feds do. And like the income received through extractive industry on state land in Utah is significant. So like, you know, I don't know much about anything. My life's as much of a mess as the next person, but I don't see how it makes sense to sell off that land. Like, it's like mailbox money, to the tunes of billions of dollars.

• 1:01:08Speaker 08

  Well, you pointed out one, one big thing, right? Like, the federal government isn't required to manage public lands to generate revenue. They do generate revenue. They sell oil and gas. They have grazing leases. And your last guest, you know, highlighted the dollar thirty-five in AUM for grazing leases. The states are required to make money off of it, as much money as possible, which is why it costs in a lot of places a thousand percent more to graze on state land than it does on private land. Why oil and gas royalty payments to the states are higher on state land than they are on federal lands? Because they're required to generate that revenue. They're not required to manage lands

• 1:01:50Speaker 08

  with multiple use in mind, including recreation and hunting and angling and conservation and all of the things that go into multiple use management. It's different. The state's systems are just different. And so if you had, if you had these transfers, they're going to be managed differently than they are currently managed under the federal system. And, you know, when, I mean, here's one thing that I was faced with. So I used to work, as you know, I used to work for the governor here in Wyoming, the prior governor. And when we were faced with, you know, questions about whether we should support public land transfers, one of the big reasons we opposed it was the cost of fighting fire would have

• 1:02:32Speaker 08

  bankrupt the state. We couldn't afford to do it. You know, it was so, so unbelievably expensive and so important to our states to have, to have fire crews and equipment and everything out there combating these big wildfires. But it's... Like they're just different systems. And so this idea that we that we'd would use federal lands to help pay for tax cuts by selling them either to either to private landowners or to to states, you know, it's so short sighted, like the impacts on that would would be pretty, pretty catastrophic, hard to even hard to describe.

• 1:03:12Speaker 03

  Well, yeah, and I think anybody who's trying to get a mortgage in a Western state right now understands that holy cow, this land just keeps going up and up and up. So David, I'd love to talk to you more, but I'm running this horribly over time.

• 1:03:29Speaker 08

  You are way behind. I can tell you.

• 1:03:31Speaker 03

  Cal unleashed. Yes. Yes. All right. Dave, thank you so much for coming out. Where where can folks weigh in?

• 1:03:40Speaker 08

  On which thing?

• 1:03:42Speaker 03

  On all of it. Like, if you want to be a public lands advocate right now, what's what's your top two?

• 1:03:50Speaker 08

  I will tell you, if you're in one of the states we talked about, Montana, Wyoming, Arizona, Utah, you'll reach out to your local legislator, reach out to your state representative, send notes to the governor's office. Governors have the power of the pen on the veto, right? When some of these things come through, if they pass. So reaching out to your local elected officials is is really important. On some of this stuff on the federal level, reaching out to your delegation, your congressional delegation is going to be really important as well, especially as it gets closer and closer to this budget reconciliation process. You know, there are going to be other bills, like

• 1:04:28Speaker 08

  using federal lands to to build homes, like to use it for for housing in places that that don't have housing. That's a big debate that has to happen. But, you know, keep your eyes out for that, too, and contact your local representatives and tell you have tell them how you feel about that. I can tell you that conservation of the West Pole has has data about that. And most people overwhelmingly don't want to see their public lands sold for housing projects either. So elected officials are elected for a reason, right? To represent you and and the only way they are representing you is if you tell them what you think.

• 1:05:07Speaker 03

  That's right. That's right. And I'll tell you, there's nothing about the layout of Bozangela, Montana that makes me think that the people who built this place are going to do it better on public land.

• 1:05:20Speaker 08

  I'm not going to argue with you on that.

• 1:05:23Speaker 03

  All right. Thanks a bunch, David.

• 1:05:25Speaker 08

  Appreciate it.

• 1:05:29Steven Rinella?

  I'll tell you one thing that binds together all of the vehicles in the Rinella fleet at my house. They all have WeatherTech floor liners. When we get a new car, the first thing we do, out with the junky factory carpet mats, in with WeatherTech. They really are the best. They're indestructible. You can pull them out, hose them off. It doesn't matter what happens on the floor of your rig. If you've got WeatherTech, you're going to be covered. I love these things. If you're looking to get a great gift for someone, especially if they're a big time outdoors kind of person, like if you really want to do them a favor, get them some WeatherTech floor liners for their truck or car. They'll have a way easier time keeping their rig nice and clean, and they'll get years and years of use out of

• 1:06:13Steven Rinella?

  a set. Visit weathertech.com for your holiday shopping today. What if you could save up for that new car or vacation just by buying the stuff you're already buying? With the OnePay banking app, you earn 3% cash back on up to $150 in monthly spending in categories you choose, so it's easy to save. So what are you saving for? Maybe you've got your eyes on a new truck, or a new boat, or you're saving up for your first house. Download the OnePay app, or visit onepay.com for banking that gives you more for what matters.

• 1:06:52Speaker 02

  OnePay is a financial technology company, not a bank. Banking services provided by Coastal Community Bank or Lead Bank, members FDIC. Cash back is earned as points. Go to onepay.com/ rewards/terms for redemption options and additional details.

• 1:07:07Steven Rinella?

  Discover the ultimate off-road experience with OnX Offroad. The GPS navigation and map app designed for adventurers. With 750,000 miles of trails across the US, Canada, and Baja, you'll always find the perfect trail. The Discover Tool helps you locate open trails near you with filters for 4x4s, ATVs, dirt bikes, and more. Trails are color-coded by difficulty and include detailed information like distances and open-closed dates. Navigate without cell service using their high-resolution offline maps, which display every detail clearly. Follow the blue dot from your phone's GPS and leave a breadcrumb trail

• 1:07:51Steven Rinella?

  to ensure you never get lost. With integrated public and private land boundaries, you'll always know where you can legally off-road and camp. Plan trips with ease using their route builder and save them in custom folders to share with friends. Drop photo waypoints to mark key locations and keep your maps organized. Start your off-road adventure with a seven-day free trial at OnX Offroad. Download today and explore with confidence.

• 1:08:22Speaker 03

  All right, gang, I apologize for running so high. Phil, do you want to do listener feedback right now?

• 1:08:28Speaker 05

  Here's the convenient thing, Cal, is that are you surprised that the live chat has pretty much devolved into an all-out brawl? That's kind of toned down a little bit, but you know, I would say there are some people who are level-headed and just having a conversation and other people who need to get their shit together and grow up. I had to ban someone for name-calling, so.

• 1:08:48Speaker 03

  Oh.

• 1:08:48Speaker 05

  So, you know.

• 1:08:49Speaker 03

  See ya, sucker. Man, you can't be a good advocate if you lead off by telling somebody they're a jerk and then you're like, but you should listen to me. The world doesn't work that way.

• 1:09:01Speaker 05

  Anyway, I hope it's the last time I have to do it. But yeah, we got a couple. Let's do a couple of fun ones, right?

• 1:09:07Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 1:09:07Speaker 05

  We're having fun today.

• 1:09:10Speaker 05

  Let's see. Favorite February outdoor activities? Do you guys have anything specific before turkey season gets going? And the transition period?

• 1:09:19Speaker 03

  It's been a tough February here.

• 1:09:20Speaker 05

  From Caleb Tucker. Ice fishing.

• 1:09:22Speaker 03

  Yep.

• 1:09:23Speaker 04

  It's been a tough, snowy, cold.

• 1:09:24Speaker 03

  But even that's just, I haven't drilled a single hole through the ice this year, so.

• 1:09:29Speaker 04

  I think I might go this weekend.

• 1:09:29Speaker 06

  It's been hard to get motivated this year for some reason.

• 1:09:32Speaker 03

  Yeah, yeah. I mean, the skiing's frickin' fantastic. They got this warm snap coming up, which is, yeah. Yeah, yeah.

• 1:09:41Speaker 06

  I like shooting guns a lot this time of year, too. Just making sure everything's dialed in and.

• 1:09:46Speaker 03

  Yep. Hard to find a spot to lay down.

• 1:09:48Speaker 06

  That's true. That's true.

• 1:09:51Speaker 05

  Uh, one more. Cal, I know you're a frequenter. Seth, you are too. Uh, Jordan's going to Hawaii tomorrow. And he's wondering which islands, uh, were, were you guys on? I'm sure you've visited multiple, but do you have any sort of favorite islands, favorite spots on certain islands for certain activities?

• 1:10:07Speaker 03

  You know, the big island is, is big.

• 1:10:10Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 1:10:10Speaker 03

  So there's a lot of diversity. Um, every, every island has, has diversity, but, um, you can get into, um, all sorts of different stuff on the big island and, and, um, I'll tell you, nobody's gonna stop you, uh, for shooting a goat. They've got, they've got plenty.

• 1:10:32Speaker 06

  Big Island's cool because you can go from like desert to rainforest to sweating your ass to freezing your ass.

• 1:10:40Speaker 03

  Yeah. Yeah.

• 1:10:42Speaker 06

  It's a wild place.

• 1:10:43Speaker 03

  It is. It is. It's, it's really cool. Um, you know, to get into like the Axis deer, uh, you're gonna have to get over to Lanai or, or Maui.

• 1:10:54Speaker 03

  Which, uh, super, super awesome and certainly love the people over there. So best, best way to do it is get over there, explore and, and, and make new friends.

• 1:11:07Speaker 05

  Right on. Cool. That's, that's all I've got right now. Let's keep it moving.

• 1:11:13Speaker 03

  Sounds good. Okay. Keeping the fun going.

• 1:11:16Speaker 04

  Listener hot tip off? Oh, wait, we're doing hot tip off.

• 1:11:20Speaker 03

  Yeah, hot tip off.

• 1:11:36Speaker 05

  Brody, I'm enjoying you.

• 1:11:39Speaker 06

  That's a great one, Phil. Thank you.

• 1:11:41Speaker 04

  Yeah, I don't know, Phil.

• 1:11:42Speaker 05

  I gotta, you know, I gotta do some more modern stuff, Brody. I can't, I can't be stuck in the seventies.

• 1:11:49Speaker 03

  I learned so much. I learned so much. Like, part of me knows that that's a popular song somewhere.

• 1:11:58Speaker 04

  There's no part of me that knows that.

• 1:12:00Speaker 03

  It's got the stink on it.

• 1:12:03Speaker 03

  Alright, so ahead of time, we asked you amazing folks, listeners, watching, folks watching at home to send in a hot tip off to [email protected]. We have some molten hot tips sent into the inbox, but we painstakingly had narrowed down to just two submissions for this week's listener hot tip off.

• 1:12:25Speaker 03

  Here we go.

• 1:12:27Speaker 09

  Brandon Fire.

• 1:12:32Speaker 09

  Welcome to another hot tip off coming to you from 20 Below, Minnesota. No deer hunter should enter the woods without a roll of toilet paper. Not only is it great for those early morning gas station burritos, but you will find no better tool for blood trailing than a simple roll. As you go, mark your blood with a piece, hang it on a tree branch, throw it on the ground, wherever you can see it. If you lose track of that deer, you can always look back at your breadcrumbs to see their direction of travel. Not only is it highly visible, but it's biodegradable. It'll be gone in the next rainstorm and you never have to go back and pick it up. Use toilet paper to help you find your next deer.

• 1:13:06Steven Rinella?

  Richard Chikowski.

• 1:13:11Speaker 10

  Welcome to another hot tip off. My name's Richard coming at you with this week's hot tip. If you've ever spent any amount of time outdoors in the cold, you know, keeping the feet warm is always a struggle. I was a dog sled guy for four years and keeping the toes warm was always a battle. So a friend taught me this. Take a little bit of cayenne pepper and you're just going to sprinkle some on your toes and then your socks. This is going to act as a vasodilator and it's going to keep your feet warm all day. This stuff works pretty much until you wash it off. I'm not a fan of how toe warmer is feeling my boots. Never got into the heated socks and all that jazz. Uh, so this stuff is an awesome, cheap alternative to keep the feet warm. This whole jar cost me $4. Your first time using it, don't go dumping a whole jar of cayenne on your feet.

• 1:13:56Speaker 10

  Uh, just sprinkle a little bit, see how it works for you and go from there. Uh, but try this out, get out there, enjoy toasty toes all year long.

• 1:14:05Speaker 03

  Alright, alright, so here's the fun part. We are gonna vote on who won the hot tip-off. The winner is gonna get this, uh, Mul tree, uh, cell cam.

• 1:14:20Speaker 04

  Ooh.

• 1:14:22Speaker 03

  Seth, you got a lot of experience with stuff like this. What are your thoughts here?

• 1:14:25Speaker 06

  With the, the mul trees?

• 1:14:27Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:14:27Speaker 06

  Oh, they're sweet. Um, I don't use them a whole lot, but I like, I like, I've went up in, uh, Alaska, just looking over things at the shack.

• 1:14:36Speaker 03

  Oh, yeah. So you're, you're like, uh, human surveillance, plus anything interesting.

• 1:14:40Speaker 06

  Yeah, I get a lot of deer on there and it's just cool to see what's going on up there, like, when I'm not.

• 1:14:46Speaker 03

  Yeah, darn right. Love it.

• 1:14:48Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 1:14:48Speaker 03

  Uh, hot commodity. So, uh, boys, we're going cayenne pepper or TP? They're kind, they're kind of related, which is interesting.

• 1:14:58Speaker 06

  Also, I couldn't tell if, uh, Richard was like messing with us or if that's like a legit thing.

• 1:15:03Speaker 03

  He's not. He threw in vasil dilator.

• 1:15:05Speaker 06

  Yeah, which seemed legit.

• 1:15:07Speaker 04

  I've heard about it before, but I had forgotten about it.

• 1:15:10Speaker 06

  I'm gonna go, uh, well, if that's the case, I'm gonna go with Richard because my feet freeze all the time. I struggle with it.

• 1:15:17Speaker 04

  I'm going with Richard too, because even if it doesn't keep your feet wet, you got some seasoning for your meat when you kill something in your pack.

• 1:15:25Speaker 03

  Same could be said for the TP, like, it's not, if your primary focus is blood trailing, it's good to have it in there.

• 1:15:34Speaker 04

  Mm-hmm.

• 1:15:34Speaker 03

  No matter what, but.

• 1:15:35Speaker 04

  I think brand is is great. I was just, the whole time I was thinking, what if it's real snowy out? You can't see that thing.

• 1:15:41Speaker 03

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:15:42Speaker 04

  But then you'd be able to see the blood in the snow anyway, I guess.

• 1:15:45Speaker 03

  Yeah, there you go. Yeah.

• 1:15:47Speaker 04

  I'm sticking with Richard.

• 1:15:48Speaker 03

  Alright, Richard, congratulations. You got an Edge 2, RealTree mobile cell cam here. Congrats. Seth Morris approved.

• 1:16:00Speaker 06

  Yeah, you'll fun with it.

• 1:16:03Speaker 03

  Alright, gang. So our last interview of the day. Bruce, it's been a long time since you logged on, I'm sure. I appreciate your patience. Um, hopefully you don't think that, um, this is some kind of cockamamie show that has, has no professionalism to it.

• 1:16:23Speaker 11

  I think you guys are doing fine. In fact, enjoying the process here. First time, you know, with you at least, but yeah, looking forward to a visit.

• 1:16:34Speaker 03

  Awesome. What is Floating Island International?

• 1:16:39Speaker 11

  We, first of all, we're based here in Montana outside of Billings, a place called Shepherd on the Yellowstone and

• 1:16:50Speaker 03

  Go Phillies.

• 1:16:52Speaker 11

  We're an invention company. We focus around environmental service product technology, including a floating island called the Bio Haven. So that's been our primary business since 2005. Today, there's maybe 12,000 islands all over the world.

• 1:17:14Speaker 03

  Well, that sounds like an entire podcast on its own, so I'm going to rein myself back in here.

• 1:17:20Speaker 03

  You, how did this work? Did you get in contact with us over the methane ice house explosion?

• 1:17:29Speaker 11

  I did. I read that article and it touched me real directly because for the last six years, we'd been researching aquatic methane. And today we have developed a data compendium. If anybody out there wants it, would like to do background on this topic, just send me an email, [email protected] and I'll provide it. The bottom line here is that if you remember back, what, 30, 40 years ago, harmful algae blooms were a rare thing. Water was in reasonable shape, although

• 1:18:14Speaker 11

  think Cuyahoga River catching on fire, stuff like that, you know, still happened. But since then, we've had this incredible increase in harmful algae blooms. And other forms of aquatic vegetation that can grow explosively, mostly connected with fertilizer, agriculture. Even, but today even healthy lakes are experiencing some of these harmful algae blooms. And that organic material, when it does ultimately die, settles into the bottom, becomes sludge.

• 1:18:51Speaker 11

  No oxygen in the sludge. That's where methane occurs.

• 1:18:54Speaker 04

  So, just real quick, Bruce, what you're talking about is like agricultural runoff into bodies of water that bring like a load of nutrients that then create a massive explosion in Plant growth. In plant growth.

• 1:19:15Speaker 11

  Yeah, anything organic that ultimately results in sludge buildup on the bottom of a waterway. And typically, if this occurs over in a deep water setting, it's even more likely to result in methane. The, you know, you're looking at here a scene of a floating island, right here at Shepherd, actually, on our research reservoir called Fish Fry Lake. But in that instance, the island is about three feet thick. We walk on it, we work on it. We, we rigidified the top of that island. So plants aren't happening there.

• 1:19:59Speaker 11

  But if you look, you'll see a native form of freshwater sponge that did colonize the island. It's, I didn't even know we had freshwater, a form of sponge here in Montana, but we do. And it's a filter feeder. It's helping clarify the water. Of course, the fish love it. They love the shade, all that.

• 1:20:23Speaker 04

  Boy, this is getting my mind into a totally different frame right now. This is awesome stuff. So, in, in your interpretation, like, what happened that, that day on the, on the lake?

• 1:20:40Speaker 11

  Well, you know, hell, I can't be 100%. There's other potential explanations. But from what I understand is that there was a surge in organic material in the form of leaves that blew into the lake. And they, they may have been the ultimate organic material that cycled into methane. But the with a lid of ice over the lake, that methane, as it ebullates up in bubble form, it can collect under the ice. So if you open a hole in that in the wrong spot, you can have a flume of methane ebullating up through the ice. And if you're in a contained

• 1:21:25Speaker 11

  setting like an ice hut, and there's any kind of ignition source, all you have to be is a half of 1% methane in the atmosphere, 5,000 ppm, you know, technically is 5,000 parts per million to flash. And that may have been what happened there. I do know this, that this phenomenon of methane associated with aquatic sources is the single largest source of methane occurring on the planet. Half again, more methane comes off of water than comes from oil and gas.

• 1:22:02Speaker 04

  Hey, Bruce, what, like, as far as ice fishermen goes, like, what kind of lake body of water is something like this more likely to happen? Like, I'm assuming like a large body of water with with clear water, rocky bottom, like, probably not as big of a risk?

• 1:22:32Speaker 11

  I think you're you're right on. If you, you know, high mountain lake or someplace as far removed from nutrient loading, you know, would be relatively safe. You can still have, under unusual circumstances, a buildup, but a buildup of methane. But the point is that in a eutrophic or hyper eutrophic water body, that's where you're going to have a lot more of that organic buildup that results in thick layers of sludge. Heck, we have a reservoir here not not far from us where sludge deposition is over 80 feet deep. That will be a methane factory.

• 1:23:16Speaker 04

  That's that like that when you get that real black smelly mud on the bottom of a pond or whatever, that's a problem.

• 1:23:26Speaker 11

  Great point. Methane is colorless and odorless, but it's usually accompanied by hydrogen sulfide, which is the deep swamp biogas that you, most of us have experienced at some point, walking in the muck or whatever. The, so if you smell that, be alert, you know, you, you might very well be in a situation where lots of methane is occurring.

• 1:23:52Speaker 06

  So Bruce, if, if I was to punch a hole in a, in a lake somewhere where this could happen, other than like the, the smell, is there anything else that could, you know, show signs that there could be methane under the ice?

• 1:24:09Speaker 04

  Do you have a cigarette in your mouth?

• 1:24:10Speaker 06

  No cigarette.

• 1:24:11Speaker 04

  Okay.

• 1:24:11Speaker 06

  But I'm getting ready to, to light my little buddy heater.

• 1:24:16Speaker 11

  Well, start by looking at the ice. If you see bubbles in it, big bubbles especially, then be alert to the fact that they could be, it could be methane.

• 1:24:27Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 1:24:28Speaker 11

  Uh, but if, and if the ice is murky and cloudy and you can't see through it, that's an indication that light isn't making its way through the ice. This methane only occurs under, in the absence of oxygen. So if you've got a, if you're, you know, just drilled a hole over a deep point in the lake and you've got a, a fish finder, if you can identify fish on the bottom, right against the bottom, that's a good sign that you're not anaerobic, you're not without oxygen, you're not in a methane hotspot.

• 1:25:14Speaker 11

  In fact, today, there's, there's a sonar technology that can actually

• 1:25:20Speaker 11

  work through the ice. And that would be ideal. I mean, looking and verifying whether you got fish on the bottom or not before you punch a hole.

• 1:25:32Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:25:33Speaker 11

  Yeah, the, that would be the way to go. But ultimately, be smart about it. Look at the ice. Let it tell you what's going on. You've got clear ice and maybe some bubbles, but not many. You're probably in good shape. The fact that light is getting through that ice means that there's still oxygen being generated by the, the green algae that occurs within the water, the green phytoplankton. There, there are good forms of algae as well as negative ones is, is the message there.

• 1:26:04Speaker 03

  Kind of like our political discussion.

• 1:26:08Speaker 03

  Bruce, thank you so much for, for being on. I'll, I'll let you know and, and everybody else that there is a GoFundMe.

• 1:26:20Speaker 03

  Uh, what is it? Or it's a give, send, go set up for the family of the recent ice fishing accident in Vermont, Joel Shepherd and his daughters Kaylee and Emily at givesendgo.com forward slash Shepherd family.

• 1:26:36Speaker 03

  If you got a couple of bucks to push their way, that, that'd be great. And then Bruce also, uh, my mom's just down the road from you out there in Shepherd. So, yeah, this spring I'm going to come pester you and go take a look at this island. Oh, big time.

• 1:26:53Speaker 11

  I'll tell you what, I had, uh, my brother-in-law who had never caught a fish. He was here last September. He's from England and I took him fishing with this monster big surface lure. And I thought, well, it should be fun anyway. He gets to fling his big plug around. Well, he caught two bass between four and five pounds in the space of an hour and a half.

• 1:27:14Speaker 03

  That's enough, Bruce. That's enough.

• 1:27:18Speaker 03

  Well, hey, thank you so much for being on Floating Island International. Uh, if you have any questions for Bruce and want to learn more, go to floatingislandinternational.com, correct?

• 1:27:31Speaker 11

  Yep. Thank you, guys. Have a good day.

• 1:27:33Speaker 05

  Thanks, Bruce. Thank you. Bye. Love that. That's awesome. Phil, you want to do another round of, you know, we haven't gotten a lot of questions. Like, we did get one regarding the video game stream. It is happening. I just don't have, I don't have a date yet because I want to make sure that's fun for people to watch, not just fun for me. So, but, but, but keep your eyes posted. It will happen this year at some point. But thanks. Thanks for catching up. A lot of people say they're going to try the cayenne pepper trick today.

• 1:28:05Speaker 03

  Let us know how it works.

• 1:28:06Speaker 05

  Yeah. Yeah, yeah. You should write, write in before Seth dumps it on his, on his feet. Oh, yeah. There was a running joke about whose mustache is better, Seth's or Cal's? Do we have an in-room consensus?

• 1:28:19Speaker 06

  Uh, Cal's is more seasoned. I, I think you're talking to two guys who probably don't care that much.

• 1:28:26Speaker 05

  Yeah. Michael Seth is asking how trapping is going.

• 1:28:30Speaker 06

  Uh, haven't been trapping.

• 1:28:34Speaker 06

  I like to do a lot of my trapping in the, either the earlier parts of the winter or in the spring for beaver.

• 1:28:43Speaker 03

  Yeah, beaver get going.

• 1:28:44Speaker 06

  Right now, everything's just so frozen and covered in snow. It's just.

• 1:28:48Speaker 05

  My hands hurt.

• 1:28:49Speaker 06

  Pine martin trapping would be great right now if you had a snowmobile and, you know, could get out there, but not doing much right now.

• 1:28:56Speaker 05

  Uh, Travis is also asking if he'll be back on the Montana Walleye circuit anytime soon.

• 1:29:02Speaker 06

  I wish. I wish. If I get time this summer, I'll do some tournaments, but I just don't have, I'm always gone.

• 1:29:10Speaker 05

  Yep.

• 1:29:11Speaker 06

  Just gone too much.

• 1:29:11Speaker 03

  Hard to get a rhythm.

• 1:29:12Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 1:29:13Speaker 03

  For sure. For sure. I got an update here. If, if folks are interested in helping out, um, some of our

• 1:29:22Speaker 03

  former federally employed stewards of the land, uh, old doc Randall Williams sent me a GoFundMe for Rosalie. And, uh, Rosalie is, uh, was just recently laid off. Um, she had just switched jobs in the Forest Service. So she was in that probationary period, even though she's been a Forest Service employee for a long time. But she's two months before her due date, um, and just lost, uh,

• 1:29:52Speaker 03

  Income as well as insurance. Um, and I believe, uh, Corey and Brody, you guys can probably talk about the importance of insurance when, when, uh, mom's about to calve out.

• 1:30:04Speaker 04

  Yeah. I, I wouldn't. You, you need to not say that.

• 1:30:09Speaker 03

  What?

• 1:30:10Speaker 04

  Like.

• 1:30:10Speaker 03

  Insurance?

• 1:30:11Speaker 04

  Well, no, no, that last part. Find another way to put that, Cal. You, you've got a serious girlfriend. You need to take that thing more seriously.

• 1:30:24Speaker 03

  So, uh, anyway, uh, if you check out GoFundMe, there's a support Rosalie. Uh, GoFundMe, um, and folks could, could, uh, definitely benefit from a couple of extra bucks on that one.

• 1:30:38Speaker 03

  Outside of that, gang, uh, remember to come see us at Pheasant Fest. That's coming up here in March in Kansas City. That's the annual PFQF annual gathering.

• 1:30:54Speaker 03

  Always a really fantastic opportunity to get a bunch of people in the room and get just hit over the head with really good conservation work. Um, I'm guarantee ya, there's gonna be a lot of NRCS farm bill talk, uh, during the, uh, Pheasant Fest this year. That Friday, March 5th, uh, I'm gonna be joining Kansas BHA, uh, out in DeSoto, Kansas, for, uh, just kind of a big open to the public roundtable. Let you know about what BHA and Kansas BHA are, are working on.

• 1:31:29Speaker 03

  And then, Sunday at Pheasant Fest, I'm joining, uh, Pheasants Forever Plus, the North American Grouse Partnership, to talk about this incredibly awesome program, uh, regarding endangered species called the Lesser Prairie Chicken Land Owner Alliance. And, uh, Lesser Prairie Chicken, man, fantastic game bird that, uh, you know, the mountain men, folks, they used to eat so many of them, they get sick of, they'd get sick of them. Uh, and now they're on the endangered species list and that happened on our watch. Um, lots we can be doing about that and that goes into saving America's grasslands.

• 1:32:09Speaker 03

  Outro, fellas, who, I think we just need to hit it again. Like, if you're invested in your public lands. That in absolutely no way puts you crossways with any administration. That's your right as an American citizen.

• 1:32:25Speaker 04

  Yeah, stop dwelling on the results of the election and dwell on what needs to be dealt with now.

• 1:32:32Speaker 03

  That's right.

• 1:32:33Speaker 06

  Yeah, and there's a lot of folks out there like myself who like a lot of what the current administration is doing. But when it comes to their stance on federal lands, it's just like a no go.

• 1:32:47Speaker 03

  Yeah, you get to say, hey, pump the brakes.

• 1:32:49Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 1:32:49Speaker 03

  Like what you're doing over here.

• 1:32:51Speaker 06

  So it's

• 1:32:51Speaker 03

  Keep it up.

• 1:32:52Speaker 06

  It's okay to like what they're doing and it's okay to not like what they're doing.

• 1:32:55Speaker 03

  Yep. It's just not okay to sit on your butt and do nothing if this stuff matters to you. Uh, if you do that, don't, don't write in anymore.

• 1:33:05Speaker 03

  Uh, I, I hope you enjoyed the show this week. I know we covered a lot of heavy stuff. Um, but we, you know, we're right here with you. This stuff means a heck of a lot to us. I know it means a heck of a lot to you, which is why you watch these fishing and hunting oriented things. So we're going to stay on top of it as much as we can. Um, please stay in touch and, and, uh, we will too. So thanks again. We'll talk to you next week.

• 1:33:41Steven Rinella?

  I'll tell you one thing that binds together all of the vehicles in the Rinella fleet at my house. They all have WeatherTech floor liners. When we get a new car, the first thing we do, out with the junky factory carpet mats in with WeatherTech. They really are the best. They're indestructible. You can pull them out, hose them off. It doesn't matter what happens on the floor of your rig. If you got WeatherTech, you're going to be covered. I love these things. If you're looking to get a great gift for someone, especially if they're a big time outdoors kind of person. Like if you really want to do them a favor, get them some WeatherTech floor liners for their truck or car. They'll have a way easier time keeping their rig nice and clean and they'll get years and years of use out of a set.

• 1:34:26Steven Rinella?

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• 1:34:58Speaker 02

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• 1:35:12Steven Rinella?

  The new Dual Threat Pro SD Climber is the ultimate companion for both bow and rifle hunters, thanks to its adjustable dual-threat front bar. This innovative feature allows you to tailor the climber based on your preferred hunting method. So you can choose between two climbing modes and two hunting modes. So I like having something that's got this level of versatility. Get 20% off all tree stands by using the code MEATEATER at summitstands.com. That's a phenomenal deal. That's summitstands.com. This is an iHeart Podcast. Guaranteed Human.