Drew Goddard

From BUFFY and LOST to CLOVERFIELD and THE MARTIAN, Drew Goddard is lowkey one of most important contributors to pop culture in the last 25 years and now with PROJECT HAIL MARY the Oscar nominated screenwriter is back with another celebrated hit. He joins Josh to talk about all of it including his famous abandoned SINISTER SIX film and his upcoming MATRIX movie. SUPPORT THE SHOW BY SUPPORTING OUR SPONSORS! Rula -- Rula patients typically pay $15 per session when using insurance. Connect with quality therapists and mental health experts who specialize in you at ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://www.rula.com/happy⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ #rulapod #sponsored NordVPN -- EXCLUSIVE NordVPN Deal ➼ ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://nordvpn.com/hsc⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Try it risk-free now with a 30-day money-back guarantee! Saily -- 🌎 Get an exclusive 15% discount on your first Saily data plans! Use code HSC at checkout. Download Saily app or go to to ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://saily.com/hsc⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Limited Time Offer–Get Huel today with my exclusive offer of 15% OFF online with my code happy15 at ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠http://huel.com/happy15.⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ New Customers Only. Thank you to Huel for partnering and supporting our show! Check out the ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Happy Sad Confused patreon here⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠! We've got discount codes to live events, merch, early access, exclusive episodes, video versions of the podcast, and more! Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:01Speaker 00

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• 0:29Speaker 01

  Prepare your ears, humans. Happy, Sad, Confused begins.

• 0:37Josh Horowitz?

  Hey guys, it's Josh. Welcome to another edition of Happy Sad Confused. Our coverage of Project Hail Mary, one of my favorite movies of the year, continues today with screenwriter Drew Goddard. Thanks, guys, as always, for checking out the podcast, for enjoying us on YouTube, on Spotify, however you're doing it, I appreciate you guys. And I also appreciate Project Hail Mary, if you couldn't tell already by my conversations with Ryan Gosling and Phil Lord and Chris Miller. If you haven't checked those out, they're waiting for you in the archives. But today's all about Drew Goddard. This is a writer and director who has a hell of a resume. Cloverfield, Buffy the Vampire Slayer, Cabin in the Woods, Daredevil. And those are the ones that were made. We're also talking all things Sinister Six in this one,

• 1:20Josh Horowitz?

  The Matrix, which he's currently working on. For any genre fan, this is a deep dive you're gonna really want to enjoy and savor. I should also mention spoilers for Project Hail Mary. If you haven't seen it already, probably best to check it out and come on back for this conversation with Drew Goddard. Before we get to Drew, a quick reminder, as always, patreon.com/happysadconfused. You get early access to all our episodes. You get merch, autographed posters, you get discount codes for our live events. We've got Stanley Tucci coming up in May and more that are gonna be announced very, very soon. Check it out, patreon.com/happysadconfused. But like I said, today, the name that we're talking about, the resume we're talking about, it's Drew Goddard.

• 2:05Josh Horowitz?

  This is one of those conversations with a filmmaker that I love because research is not required for me. I know and love everything about Drew's work. He's easy to talk to. He has all the same reference points as me, as probably you. So I think you're gonna enjoy this one. Please enjoy the screenwriter of Project Hail Mary and so much more. It's me and Drew Goddard. We're doing this. This is not a Project Hail Mary podcast. People might think it is by now. I've kind of become the unofficial Project Hail Mary podcaster.

• 2:35Speaker 03

  We're happy that you have been.

• 2:37Josh Horowitz?

  Drew Goddard's on the podcast, first time guest. How are you, man?

• 2:40Speaker 03

  I'm so happy to be here. Thank you for having me.

• 2:43Josh Horowitz?

  I'm thrilled. Um, look, we talked before, but never the long form. And if any resume demands a long conversation, look, look him up on the IMDb, guys. This guy's been contributing to pop culture for 20, what are we at now? What's 25 years?

• 2:58Speaker 03

  Yeah, 25 years. Yeah. And we've known each other about that long. So it really means a lot that you would have me and that we've can sort of look at this big, the big scope of this. It means a lot. Thank you, Josh.

• 3:08Josh Horowitz?

  No, no, of course. And look, I think it's a great excuse. Obviously, we're going to start with Project Hail Mary, which is such a great accomplishment. Um, I've now seen this movie three times. I love this movie. Uh, it's one of those things that you can talk about in so many different capacities from the writing to the production to the acting. Um, but I'm curious, like for you, look, you're the screenwriter of this. You're adapting Andy Weir's material once again. You're also an executive producer on this. I'm curious, like, do the responsibilities of executive producer and writer ever kind of like come at odds? Or, I don't know, is there like an overlap? Do you know what I mean?

• 3:43Speaker 03

  Yeah, it's a good question because I do think writer is the one that's the most difficult. I don't, it's most difficult to deal with the writer. The producer's fun. Producer Drew is a lot of fun.

• 3:55Josh Horowitz?

  Right.

• 3:56Speaker 03

  Writer Drew is, gets very, it's so internal, the act of writing, you really have to lock yourself in a room.

• 4:01Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 4:01Speaker 03

  And sort of be antisocial. So it's, in some ways for me, it's sort of like changing personas.

• 4:08Josh Horowitz?

  Right.

• 4:08Speaker 03

  Like, once the writing's done, producer Drew can just be helpful.

• 4:11Josh Horowitz?

  Yes.

• 4:11Speaker 03

  Would you, he, if you want to hang out with him more than you want to hang out with writer Drew.

• 4:15Josh Horowitz?

  Are you, are you tough? Well, you're in the thick of the writing process?

• 4:18Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 4:19Josh Horowitz?

  If I ask friends and family, or is like Drew, is it a different Drew?

• 4:21Speaker 03

  I, absolutely. And you, you know, can we talk about how your brother and I?

• 4:25Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah, my brother Adam Harwood.

• 4:26Speaker 03

  You can ask, um, uh, your brother about that because I remember we used to, we wrote together on Lost. And I'm going to quote him. Uh, I was, I like to, you know, when I'm really struggling with a script, it's a lot of pacing around, looking haggard, you know? And I remember once I was pacing around the Disney lot where we worked. And Adam and his partner, they came up to me and they said, is this what giving up looks like?

• 4:52Speaker 03

  Which I always talk about now. I mean, that quote has stuck with me because

• 4:58Speaker 03

  because that now it's become like the thing my wife says like, oh, we're in the giving up stage here of writing. But, you know, you just sort of hack your way through the uh, through the forest and get there eventually.

• 5:09Josh Horowitz?

  It's so cruel that it never gets easier, does it? It's like you, you start at page one, the blank page. Doesn't matter how many Oscar nominations, how many billions of dollars of box office.

• 5:18Speaker 03

  If anything, it gets harder in some ways, but the part that does get easier is you recognize, oh, I've had this feeling before.

• 5:25Josh Horowitz?

  You know the process. This is part of it.

• 5:26Speaker 03

  This is part of the process. It's not going to go away. So just step by step, work your way through it.

• 5:32Josh Horowitz?

  So if you'll indulge me, I know you've told kind of the origin story of this one, but um, you know, you're on this quite early on. You obviously have this great relationship with Andy Weir, the brilliant novelist who wrote The Martian, wrote Project Hail Mary. And correct me if I'm wrong, he comes to you, this is not a, this is not a book yet, this is a manuscript. What's the conversation there? And how quickly does it develop into an actual partnership again?

• 5:54Speaker 03

  Yeah, I mean, we, we've always stayed in touch, you know, through The Martian, just checking in both on how work's going and also how life's going, right? So it wasn't like out of the blue, but, but we hadn't spoken in a while because, and I tend to not ask Andy about whatever he's writing because I, I know as a writer, sometimes you just want to be left alone, like give people the space to, to actually write. So, but he, two weeks after the pandemic, shut everything down. I remember it because it was April 1st, 2020. Is that, is that when the pandemic?

• 6:23Josh Horowitz?

  That would be, yeah, yeah. My birthday, by the way, April 1st.

• 6:25Speaker 03

  Oh, happy birthday. Well.

• 6:27Josh Horowitz?

  Happy birth of your collaboration.

• 6:29Speaker 03

  That's right. That's when that, now we will celebrate two things.

• 6:32Josh Horowitz?

  There you go.

• 6:33Speaker 03

  Project Hail Mary and you. But um, he sent me an email that said, I've finished my new book. Um, I've, I'm, I'm a producer now. He was very happy that he was a producer. He's like, I've already attached Ryan Gosling. I'm like, you're killing it as a producer. By the way, that is like who you are.

• 6:51Josh Horowitz?

  The smartest decision you can make as a producer.

• 6:53Speaker 03

  You're running circles around all the, the other producers in Hollywood right now. And he's like, will you take a look at this? And I'd be like, and I, at first I thought, well, I'm so flattered and honored. And I was, I was so excited. I was also a little scared because Martian went so well that I just didn't want to let Andy down. Quite honestly, like I wanted to make sure I could. Be there for him, you know, and so I was a little worried, but then I opened it and read the book and I remember about halfway through the book, I was like, oh crap, I gotta do this.

• 7:25Josh Horowitz?

  It's funny because like people have said, like there are surface level kind of comparisons you can make that like that that would seem like, oh, these are of the same cloth, but you dig under the hood, it's a much, it's a hugely different story, hugely different structured story. Did that kind of allay some fears of like, I don't want to go to the well, the same, the same well again?

• 7:44Speaker 03

  Yes, absolutely. I think there were sort of some surface comparisons, but very quickly you realize Project Hymn Mary is a very different text, right? And I think that was both, and then it was suddenly became scary for the other reason. I was like, oh, no, now I want to feel, I can't use my old tricks. Like I have to actually do what's right for this movie. But that was thrilling and that's, that's part of why I was in.

• 8:08Josh Horowitz?

  So what do you, okay, so you, you read the book, you're in, your first kind of steps are, is it kind of like, you know, I can only imagine the dog eared copy of the book you have, like, is it circling lines, scenes, are you writing down themes, like the big picture, like mission statements, like what, like, how do you even approach something like this?

• 8:27Speaker 03

  I have a process that is very, it actually is similar, no matter what kind of adaptation I'm doing, but it also sort of applies to an original idea too. I want to be just in the space where I'm just in love with it for as long as I can be before I start worrying about the problems, if that makes sense. So I'll just read, I read the book, all I do is write down the things I love. I like, it could be a scene, it could be a moment, it could be a line of dialogue, it could be a descriptor, you know, like, I don't, there's no judgment, I just write it down and put it on a little board I have. And then don't talk to anyone, right? I just do that and then maybe read it again. Don't talk to anyone because I don't want.

• 9:09Speaker 03

  Anyone else's opinions to start to cloud my, at least my core opinions, because I know that the act of adapting something, you start to second guess everything, you yourself. It's not even other people second guessing you yourself. So I just want a clean record of when I first.

• 9:23Josh Horowitz?

  It's only going to be pure for a certain amount of time until everybody else. And they have great ideas, but it's going to muddy up.

• 9:29Speaker 03

  And me too.

• 9:30Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 9:30Speaker 03

  Me, I also will start to muddy it up. You know, just as when I start to think of the logistics. So I want to have a clean record of like, what did I love? You know, like, what are the things when I first read it? How did, what did I respond to? And, and that gives me a roadmap, you know, because it really, you have to make really hard decisions and I would keep coming back to that list.

• 9:48Josh Horowitz?

  Okay. So what did you love? What was like top of the list?

• 9:51Speaker 03

  All right. So without, I mean, we're, we're giving a spoiler.

• 9:54Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah. So the movie's out. It's made a billion dollars.

• 9:57Speaker 03

  Stop listening now, right?

• 9:59Josh Horowitz?

  If you haven't seen it.

• 10:00Speaker 03

  Um, there was a long list, but the first one was the big reveal that Sandra Huler's character, um, uh, made the forces Grace to go on this mission. When I got to that moment in the book, the hair stood up on the back of my neck. I thought, oh my God, I didn't see this coming.

• 10:18Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 10:18Speaker 03

  My job is to see things coming like I, that's what I'm always reading or watching things, just in the back of my mind, thinking about where the, um, where the twists are.

• 10:29Josh Horowitz?

  Sure.

• 10:29Speaker 03

  And in that case, I, I didn't see it coming. So I knew like, oh, that's really special.

• 10:34Josh Horowitz?

  Wait, can we, can we dig into that? And then we'll go down the list because that's such that I want to talk about that anyway. Cause that's like something that, you know, I would imagine is a big talking point, like in the boardroom with the executives or whatever. It's like, how do we not lose the audience? Like when you reveal that your hero is a coward, is, it wants out. Is that how much of a discussion, like there's never a scenario where that wasn't a part of it, where you kind of like backed off of it?

• 10:57Speaker 03

  Oh no, it was under fire for the whole time. Now, again, nobody, we, everyone always supported just us and our vision, right? Like, but anytime you have something different, they do question it.

• 11:09Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 11:10Speaker 03

  They do, and they question it. If this isn't like a Drew's going to battle, sometimes you have to go to battle.

• 11:15Josh Horowitz?

  Sure.

• 11:15Speaker 03

  It's more just they're afraid.

• 11:17Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 11:18Speaker 03

  They're afraid because that, we haven't seen that before.

• 11:20Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 11:20Speaker 03

  So often the things that I love are the very things that make everyone afraid because they're different.

• 11:26Josh Horowitz?

  Right.

• 11:26Speaker 03

  Right? And so you, I've just learned to sort of. You use all, you have a lot of tricks, right? But first and foremost, your main trick is to explain, hope to inspire them to see what you see.

• 11:39Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 11:39Speaker 03

  Right? That's really the main, because it doesn't really work. You can win the battle but lose the war.

• 11:44Josh Horowitz?

  Right.

• 11:44Speaker 03

  Like, that's such a big move that if they, if they go with it begrudgingly, later they're gonna second guess and it'll get cut out of the film.

• 11:54Josh Horowitz?

  Right.

• 11:54Speaker 03

  So you have to really sort of build consensus and build, you know, build it with everyone so that it will work. Otherwise, it's not gonna work.

• 12:03Josh Horowitz?

  So how close did it come to not even being included?

• 12:06Speaker 03

  Jumping ahead, so there was a point where, because I'm gonna list a couple other of my favorite things. The ending of the book.

• 12:13Josh Horowitz?

  Right.

• 12:14Speaker 03

  Right? I love the way the book ended. That was another thing that I didn't see coming and thought, oh, not only is this a wonderful ending, it actually speaks to the journey he's been through.

• 12:25Josh Horowitz?

  Right.

• 12:26Speaker 03

  And speaks to some of the deeper themes of, of the book. And I felt like, oh, I, actually, when I got to the, my favorite kinds of endings is when, are the ones that, when you reach them, you realize you have to reevaluate the entire story you just watched.

• 12:40Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 12:41Speaker 03

  Because you're like, oh, this is, this is where we were heading. Okay, now let me look at the beginning.

• 12:46Josh Horowitz?

  Now, remind me, because I have read the book, but it's been a minute. Is that the, in fact, the very ending where he's, he's like, what are we teaching again on the planet?

• 12:52Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 12:52Josh Horowitz?

  Like, yeah.

• 12:52Speaker 03

  The last sentence is, and I'm, I could get the exact wording wrong, but it's something like, 12 claws raised their hands.

• 12:58Josh Horowitz?

  Right.

• 12:58Speaker 03

  And it was, or no, 12 claws raised in the air, because they're not hands. It's something like that, but it's good, it's wonderful, you know? And so, that was one, I think, I really loved that they watch each other sleep.

• 13:12Josh Horowitz?

  Yes.

• 13:12Speaker 03

  Right? Like, it's like, okay, you know, I love Strat, just the character of Strat in general. I thought it was a spectacular opportunity for a character. I loved that he was a teacher, like, these are on the list.

• 13:24Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 13:24Speaker 03

  But there was a point on a conference call with a whole bunch of people, like, so, and I don't wanna point the finger at anyone. This was just, but it was just the second guessing. Sometimes you just, there, there's just things where everyone second guesses everything.

• 13:36Josh Horowitz?

  Sure.

• 13:37Speaker 03

  And I remember, it was all a conference call, so I was looking at my desk, just watching them. And check the things off the list and going, oh, no, oh, no. Slowly but surely, and they were all for different reasons. Some of them were just like pure logistical reasons. Luckily, all the I had Chris and Phil were right there with me. Like, they loved the same things I loved. So we there were strength in numbers. And again, no one like put the hammer down. It was just, are we sure we need that is a way that this gets phrased.

• 14:04Josh Horowitz?

  Right.

• 14:05Speaker 03

  And you just you you start to you start to get sad because you're like, I think I am sure.

• 14:10Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 14:10Speaker 03

  But I don't know because there's enough people that are worried about it. Luckily, it all worked out.

• 14:16Josh Horowitz?

  Well, I mean, look, and it's it's not without validity to question it because, I mean, look, you have Gosling. That's that's kind of your superpower also, right? In the hands of someone else, maybe you lose the audience. But he's got such an inherent charm and relatability that you kind of forgive. What's what's like a real decision and and and is a relatable decision like and it makes you question what you would do in that situation?

• 14:40Speaker 03

  Well, that's the thing of like, through the course of making your movie, you second guess everything yourself too. You it's not just you have to get my job, especially as a screenwriter, is to inspire other people to do their jobs, right? And so I have to get 300 people to believe, right? And so in order to do that, you second guess yourself all the time.

• 14:58Josh Horowitz?

  Right.

• 14:58Speaker 03

  So it is it becomes this when it's working well and you're with people you trust, you're it's okay to air these things. It's okay to, you know, and that's why I had that list so I could go back to it even when I started to second guess it.

• 15:46Speaker 04

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• 16:31Speaker 04

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• 16:48Josh Horowitz?

  I mean, there's so many layers of challenge for you here. I mean, we haven't even addressed the fact that it also there's the aspect that it's almost like, you know, this is like E.T. meets Memento. It's like you have a lead character that doesn't remember much of anything, and you have to kind of build his history through these flashbacks, but also like I love like all the context clues, especially in the first act of the film, having seen it now a few times. You know, the T-shirts, I like when you were talking about your whiteboard, I'm thinking about his whiteboard, which is like the funniest thing to me, which is like they like, I think it's like, okay, cilantro, always muscles, question mark. Can you talk a little bit about like, I don't know, the challenge and opportunity of like, yeah, like building a character and teasing at like who they were

• 17:32Josh Horowitz?

  through without dialogue, without?

• 17:34Speaker 03

  I mean, that I have to say, that's one of the things that changed the most from the first draft to subsequent drafts. I turned in the first draft, and I think I used a lot of my old crutches for the first half of the script, you know, or at least until Rocky shows up, you know, first third of the script, where I had him talking to camera and recording video diaries and And it made sense and attracted because we needed to explain all of the things. It's a very internal problem we had to solve, which is you're having a main character. Who is, does not know what's happening. Which can be confusing. You need to, the audience needs to hear that you don't know what's happening. Otherwise, you're just behaving like a lunatic, right?

• 18:14Speaker 03

  And so, I, the first draft had that. Ryan read it and he, his big note was, I don't buy that my character would do this. I am not a, you know, astronaut who's there to, you know, preserve knowledge. Especially once you've seen the movie through once, you realize he's, he, he, he's not on board this mission. He's not going to be recording this. Like, he's not, he's just trying to survive. It was false to the character. And as soon as he said it, I knew, oh crap, he's right. Like, he's absolutely right. And so, we pulled all of it out. And I remember Chris Phil and I sitting there after sort of, he gave that note and thinking, he's right. But let's figure out how we do this. And I think Chris and Phil came up with the whiteboard idea.

• 18:58Speaker 03

  Of just working things out. Also, you just want to give Ryan things to play with and work things out. What would you do? A lot of those conversations were, what would you do then? And let's see if there's something useful. And if we don't spell it out entirely, maybe that's okay. You know, maybe it's okay if we're not, I think we're all sort of accustomed to making sure it's clear.

• 19:18Josh Horowitz?

  Yes.

• 19:18Speaker 03

  But then you, you, you can start to pull that back and you, and it, you realize, oh, it's, it's more clear than you realized.

• 19:24Josh Horowitz?

  Totally.

• 19:25Speaker 03

  And then, and then, once we did that, we thought, well, maybe we can get away with this for the entire movie. And then Rocky showed up and Ryan had the opposite note, which is, well, obviously I would film now. Like, obviously, it's an alien. Like, if we all, if an alien walked in this room, we'd all start filming. Like, that's what would happen. And so, it was a good lesson of just like, trust your characters. And trust your actors when they really are bumping on something. There's usually a good reason behind it that you're not thinking of.

• 19:55Josh Horowitz?

  So is there anything, any scene, any aspect that you were sure was going to make it all the way to the end? That through the development process, just fell away at some point?

• 20:05Speaker 03

  No. Boy, that's a good question. No, I mean, there was a couple of things on my list that I was on board cutting, right? Just because it's hard. There's a lot of the book, there's these wonderful scenes of what Earth is doing to combat, you know, the sun dying. And one of the things is that there's this great sequence where they nuke Antarctica, right, to help buy themselves time. And it was such a bold idea. And it was on the list. Like, I thought it was really thrilling in the book. But I got to that point in the script and you realize there's no fast way to do this. There's a, that's a seven page scene to make you understand it. And we don't have time for a seven page scene. We just don't for, that's kind of off theme. You know?

• 20:46Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 20:47Speaker 03

  So that was, that one hurt, but yet we all kind of agreed.

• 20:50Josh Horowitz?

  Do you, do you think about like, I mean, again, having seen the movie a few times and being a cinephile, look, I can't help but think of reference points for me, things that it reminds me of. And yes, I think of things like everything from E T to two thousand and one, big comes up to me, especially like in the goodbye, I'm thinking of big. Um, I mean, did you have reference points? Is that, is that something that's helpful for you? Or is it just sort of so ingrained, it kind of comes through, if it comes through?

• 21:13Speaker 03

  Or? Yeah, if anything, I try to avoid reference points because it, you can almost, in trying to react one way or another, you're not being true to the craft. But there's stuff that is definitely ingrained. I mean, for a movie like this, James Cameron's structure is deeply ingrained in me, like the sort of lesson of it always has to be emotional, like always you, and I don't mean, when I say emotional, I don't mean every scene has to be crying. You just.

• 21:40Josh Horowitz?

  But it's tied to emotion, right?

• 21:41Speaker 03

  Right. There's no difference between plot. There's no difference between plot and emotional journey. They're the same thing, right? The cleanest example is they kiss, they hit the iceberg, right? Like, that's it. But the abyss was very much in my head, the sort of, you, you're a divorced couple or a soon to be divorced couple, trying to figure out how to live and die for one another and come back together. That, that structure isn't through the whole movie. And so I, I just knew it's important that we structure this movie around whatever that we think the soul is. And the rest will, all the other things will fall into place if we do that.

• 22:15Josh Horowitz?

  It's so funny. I, I forget, we just had somebody here and I was talking about Cameron and, and this kind of stuff before and like. He's so underestimated as like a storyteller in terms of like as a screenwriter because it's also, we're not even talking about, I'm always so impressed in how he kind of lays down exposition and pays it off famously like the Titanic sequence where he's literally showing how the boat goes down early in the first act and then that's exactly how it goes down and you in your brain know in that third act.

• 22:43Speaker 03

  I mean, you're absolutely right. I think it's, I may be misquoting, but I think Frank Darabont said, it took me 10 years of screenwriting before I realized that all screenwriting is set up and payoff.

• 22:52Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 22:52Speaker 03

  And boy, there's truth to that. There really is like this idea that when you can handle exposition well, it actually becomes foreshadowing, right? It becomes something that sets the audience's intrigue, you know, on alert.

• 23:07Josh Horowitz?

  Totally. So I'm curious also your perspective on adaptation. So you've done that obviously quite a bit, whether it is a bestselling novel or, you know, working in the comic book genre world. You know, there's so much talk, like especially in recent years about like fan service and how much to kind of like think of the fans and kind of satisfy their expectations versus just doing your own thing. And I'm curious if you have kind of like an overall philosophy when you approach adapting anything now.

• 23:33Speaker 03

  I do. I do. It has served me well. And the truth is, I, I make sure that I am a fan.

• 23:41Josh Horowitz?

  Right.

• 23:42Speaker 03

  And, and not a fake fan. There's a lot of people that claim, I saw this happen at Comic Con when, you know, I sort of spanned, we've been at a lot of Comic Con's together and we sort of saw a Comic Con change, right? Like there was a time when Comic Con was us, just all of us with our long boxes, digging through crates, trying to find that old X-Men issue we really needed. And, and the, and the panels were versions of just people who loved it, talking about it. And slowly but surely became profitable and then it became a big marketing endeavor. And then I had to deal with a whole lot of people in Hollywood specifically that said, I'm a huge fan. I'm a huge fan of Iron Man. And you're like, what's your favorite issue? Like, no, they're like, no, I just, I've always loved Robert Downey Jr. or Iron Man. You're like, okay. So now, to be fair, I love people that came on board.

• 24:26Josh Horowitz?

  All good, but don't pretend that you were there.

• 24:29Speaker 03

  That's right.

• 24:29Josh Horowitz?

  When he was an alcoholic in the comics.

• 24:31Speaker 03

  Correct. That's right. And so I, I bristled. That was like my angry, now I'm. Older and I'm like, I'm just happy for anyone's enthusiasm about anything, to be honest. But I've, I've learned to do my job well, to adapt something well, because adaptation is a lot about doing, making brutal decisions.

• 24:47Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 24:47Speaker 03

  Like, it just is. Movies are short. Like, we don't realize how few words you have to work with in a movie. It's, you have to be efficient and that means you're gonna have to cut some, make some really tough choices. And so I've learned that if I am sincerely a fan and I love it, then I will trust myself to protect the things that I will love and hopefully that will sort of be the things, at least most of the things that the fans love. But if I try to, if I try to just guess at what the fans are gonna love.

• 25:19Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah, they're gonna.

• 25:19Speaker 03

  I'm gonna end, I'll be wrong because I'm not coming from a place of, um, listening to my own fan, right? I'm just guessing and, and that's where you really get in the weeds. I've seen it happen. I get called in a lot to script doctor and I realize, and you can feel it where you're like, nobody likes this project. Like, somebody thought this was a good project to market or someone else was told them that this had a lot of audience, right?

• 25:43Josh Horowitz?

  Mm-hmm.

• 25:43Speaker 03

  Or had a big, and you can feel it. You're reading it and you're like, does anyone care? Like, does anyone actually care about what this is or do you just think this is a good business opportunity?

• 25:51Josh Horowitz?

  Like, do you realize like what this comic or whatever was actually about? Like, why people love it? Cause you clearly, what I'm seeing here doesn't actually demonstrate that.

• 25:58Speaker 03

  Yeah, cause you want somebody.

• 26:00Josh Horowitz?

  The core tenets of what it is.

• 26:01Speaker 03

  That's part of adaptation is you as a screenwriter are saying, let me share my enthusiasm with you.

• 26:07Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 26:07Speaker 03

  Let me tell you the thing that I love about this, that I connect. And I feel like if you come at it from that point of view, even if I'm wrong, people feel my own love.

• 26:16Josh Horowitz?

  Yep.

• 26:17Speaker 03

  Right? Even if we disagree.

• 26:18Josh Horowitz?

  Yep.

• 26:18Speaker 03

  Like, Lord knows, there's, there's.

• 26:21Josh Horowitz?

  That'll happen, yeah.

• 26:21Speaker 03

  Things about, you know, uh, a Daredevil comic that some people can spark to. They're not the things that I sparked to.

• 26:28Josh Horowitz?

  Right.

• 26:28Speaker 03

  But the thing that I can promise is the things that I was writing about were the things I loved about Daredevil.

• 26:33Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 26:33Speaker 03

  And I, I hope that that comes across with everything, cause it's not just superhero, right? It's also math and science, right? It's like, oh, here's some stuff about space travel and math that I actually love. And, okay, you think it's complicated, let me tell you why I think it's fun, right? Let me work through that. And that, that has always guided me well.

• 26:53Josh Horowitz?

  All right, there's a thousand things I could talk to you about. Let's just dig in. Um, because pretty much the first very notable thing on the resume people always talk to you about is Buffy. So you're doing the math, you're probably 26 or 27.

• 27:07Speaker 03

  Sounds right.

• 27:07Josh Horowitz?

  When you get hired as a writer on Buffy, this is, I think, for the last season.

• 27:11Speaker 03

  Yep.

• 27:12Josh Horowitz?

  Um, I assume you were a fan by the time you got there.

• 27:14Speaker 03

  It was my favorite show of all time. It still is. I gotta ask, it still is my favorite show of all time.

• 27:19Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 27:19Speaker 03

  Um, and, and it really was, oh my God, it was terr- it was so exciting, but it was also terrifying. Right? To know like, sometimes you don't want to be out and working on something that you're a huge fan of because you're like, ah, this, if this goes bad, it's gonna be my fault.

• 27:34Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 27:34Speaker 03

  The blood is gonna be on my hands.

• 27:36Josh Horowitz?

  I don't wanna ruin what I love.

• 27:38Speaker 03

  That's right. That's scary, but looking back, it was the best thing that could have happened to me because I was in a place where I was comfortable writing what, what I loved, right? And if you really, if I really look back now, with the benefit of time, it set me up for every, everything I've done since. Because both in, in terms of, um, you know, the structure and the, the lessons I learned there, but also just knowing that like, oh, writing, going back to what we were talking about, writing's always gonna be really hard.

• 28:06Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 28:06Speaker 03

  But if you pick areas that you genuinely are connected to, whatever those reasons are, you don't even have to know why you're connected.

• 28:13Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 28:13Speaker 03

  It will get you through that forest.

• 28:15Josh Horowitz?

  Did you have a particular kind of like, I don't know, expertise or kind of corner of the writer's room for what you were, your specialty was? I mean, you, I think you were credited on seven scripts, Conversations with Dead People is probably the one that people really pick out the most. Does that, does that also hold a very special place in your heart?

• 28:31Speaker 03

  Well, the first one I wrote was called Selfless and it just worked. It just connected. I just, I just was ready. I love writing characters that everyone sort of dismisses. You know, like finding a character that, in that case, Anya, who everyone had overlooked, or hadn't, hadn't had a chance to shine yet, is a better way to say it.

• 28:49Josh Horowitz?

  Right.

• 28:49Speaker 03

  Um, that's delightful for me. Like, I really love when you, when you widen the cast, if that makes sense of, everyone gets to step forward to the spotlight. And, and also that episode was full of like, I mean, frankly, as I'm thinking about it right now, a lot of the things about Hail Mary that it connects to of like, really heartbreaking, there's heartbreaking things that happen within that story. And then there's silly comedy. Like, there is very, like, we're jumping around. Same with conversations with them. I mean, truthfully, that was all of Buffy. Like, the thing that I learned about Buffy is be fearless in your storytelling.

• 29:24Josh Horowitz?

  You could, you could actually, these things that you put, you separate, generally speaking, actually can go together. Be butter and chocolate sometimes works together.

• 29:31Speaker 03

  Yeah, and, and every episode can be wildly different.

• 29:34Josh Horowitz?

  Right.

• 29:34Speaker 03

  Right? Like, we would, we would swing for the fences, both in genre and in emotional stakes. And yet, because we were true to the characters, you could, the audience would go with you. And that, that has been a lesson I've always held of, like, character first, emotion first. If you do that, you can go to some bananas places.

• 29:53Josh Horowitz?

  So just in the last couple of days, as we tape this, the reboot, or I guess continuation that Kojia was gonna direct, I guess they're not picking up, which is bumming out a lot of Buffy fans, of course. I mean, over the years, have you been approached or had any talks about potentially doing a continuation or something with Buffy?

• 30:10Speaker 03

  I mean, certainly never formally, never. Like, sometimes the question comes up, and, and it's, I never rule anything out, right? But I also, part of the ending of our, our arc, was that you pass, you pass this on to the next generation, right? Like, that was the ending of the seven seasons of Buffy. Like, it's, and I actually believe that. I believe that that's important, you know? So, it's always like, I've let it know, I'm always here to help, if I can be helpful, but I shouldn't be running with this. This is, it's time for a new generation to be running with this. I do understand that. But they always have my support if they ever need it.

• 30:45Josh Horowitz?

  I'm also kinda surprised, look, of course, then also on the resume is Lost, where you knew Adam, my brother. And that's one that, I don't know if it's that JJ has some control over it or not, but like, I can't imagine that ABC hasn't tried to do something with Lost over the years.

• 31:00Speaker 03

  If there's one thing we can be sure of, anything that was successful in the path, somebody is going to try, right? They're just gonna try. Um, and I, I hope that they just, if they're going to, they find people that really love it.

• 31:12Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 31:13Speaker 03

  You know, that's really the key. Don't just do it for the sake of doing it. Do it because somebody is excited to tell stories of that world in a very pure, real way.

• 31:21Josh Horowitz?

  So you talked a little bit about learning under, under Joss and Buffy and like what you could do in Buffy. That really was, was impactful in the rest of your, your career. When you look back at Lost, what are the lessons of working with Damon and Carlton and the whole gang there?

• 31:33Speaker 03

  Yeah, I mean, it's sort of like Buffy at the end of the day was, even though the stories went to crazy places, it was a small show and I just mean that in the sense of it was a, almost like a handmade bespoke quality to the show.

• 31:49Josh Horowitz?

  Yep.

• 31:49Speaker 03

  Right? Part of that was our budget, part of it was the approach, right? It wa- it wanted to feel, whereas Lost was like, oh no, we're opening this canvas, right? We are, especially then, it's easy to forget now, but when that pilot dropped, there had been nothing like it ever on broadcast television. JJ first and foremost said, I am going to treat this like a feature. I am not going to treat this like network television at all. I don't care if people are telling me I can't do it. We're gonna start with this plane crash. And you just never see anything. Now, like, I think because TV is elevated so much, it's not as insane to see sort of spectacle on that scale, but we had never seen spectacle on that scale.

• 32:34Speaker 03

  And then, and then what Damon um, sort of brought to it was this, the character that we're talking about, right?

• 32:40Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 32:41Speaker 03

  Mixing that spectacle though with, oh my God, we're gonna see people from all across the globe and we're gonna explore this, um, all of these characters.

• 32:49Josh Horowitz?

  Right.

• 32:50Speaker 03

  In a way that, again, the, it sounds quaint now.

• 32:54Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 32:54Speaker 03

  But at the time, subtitling our Korean characters was a huge battle. Like, and you know, it's credit to everyone of saying like, no, no, we can, the world is different. We can open this world up and they're gonna go with us.

• 33:07Josh Horowitz?

  Right.

• 33:09Speaker 03

  We take it for granted now, but at the time, putting that on network TV, people were not, they, the studio did not know people were ready for it.

• 33:17Josh Horowitz?

  I also can't abide by like the whole, the lingering like digs at the end of Lost, the finale of Lost, which I, I'm biased, I know, but like, I, I find very moving and very effective.

• 33:27Speaker 03

  I'm with you. And look, it's, it's been fun because I left after season four because I went to go do the cabin in the woods. So I actually got to experience it as a fan, you know, so I, so I say that just so you don't think I'm biased. Like I, I loved it. There's a heartbreak. That final scene between Jack and his dad is everything lost, every, every episode about in Lost that you love. The core of that episode is about, is being discussed by Jack and his father.

• 33:55Josh Horowitz?

  Right.

• 33:55Speaker 03

  That is a conversation that is about the soul of the show.

• 33:58Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 33:58Speaker 03

  And when I watched the show, that show, that, that conversation in particular, you realize now this is the only way it could have ended.

• 34:07Josh Horowitz?

  More Happy Second Fused coming up.

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• 35:32Josh Horowitz?

  Let's talk Cloverfield.

• 35:33Speaker 03

  Let's do it.

• 35:34Josh Horowitz?

  Cloverfield, does that begin as like a loose idea from JJ? Essentially like Godzilla, but from the POV of like the people on the ground?

• 35:42Speaker 03

  Yes, I mean, it really was. We were sitting, I was sitting in my lost office and the phone rings and it's JJ. He's like, I just got back from Japan and I just keep thinking about Godzilla. What, here's an idea. What if we did Godzilla, but like, like in the style of the Blair Witch Project? Cause the Blair Witch was a big, big movie then. And I remember sitting up and going, oh, that sounds good. Yeah. Like that just, I was like, I just got it right away.

• 36:08Josh Horowitz?

  Right.

• 36:09Speaker 03

  I was like, okay, let's do it. And, and this is what it's like working with JJ. He hangs up and then like two weeks later, I'm in a room with Brad Gray at the time.

• 36:19Josh Horowitz?

  Right.

• 36:20Speaker 03

  Pitching it, right? Just pitching that idea. And they're like, great, how fast can you write it? And I'm like, well, we're about to break for the holidays, right? At, at Lost, you get, I got two weeks off. I can write you an outline of it. I wrote the outline of the holidays, thinking this will get me through. Then I could finish the season of Lost and I could write over the summer.

• 36:40Josh Horowitz?

  Right.

• 36:41Speaker 03

  And JJ, this is where he just does not take no for an answer. He turns it in, they love it and they go, great, you're greenlit. You gotta be shooting by March though. So I was like, oh my God, I gotta write this while I'm doing my day job at Lost. Poor Matt Reeves. Every day I, Matt Reeves, our director, just exquisite director. I apologized to him every time I see him because he didn't get a script for Cloverfield till two weeks before. So he was prepping off my outline that entire time. And now that I've directed, I realize how badly I hosed him. Like I just hosed him so badly. And, and yet that whole process never felt like we were like doing quote unquote, a big Hollywood movie.

• 37:23Speaker 03

  It felt like it was just our friends in the backyard goofing off. Like it did.

• 37:28Josh Horowitz?

  Everything about that is like a miracle for those that have lived through that time and remember of like how it was marketed. There was no title.

• 37:34Speaker 03

  There was no.

• 37:34Josh Horowitz?

  The trailer like drops and no one knew this movie existed.

• 37:39Josh Horowitz?

  I mean, the fan theories, that was like the birth of like, I mean, Lost was doing it on the TV side, but like, what a gas it must be for us like a screenwriter to like see this whole like, this whole phenomenon of everybody having a theory of what your film is even about, the larger mythology. Like, do you remember, like, were any of like the fan theories at the time, like, really exciting for you to hear, like, how people extrapolated off of what you came up with?

• 38:02Speaker 03

  It's always exciting to sort of hear people's enthusiasm and wanting to sort of, play more in the sandbox, right? Letting them play more. I mean, I, what's interesting about Cloverfield is, I think, because we were going so fast, and because I did, I came from an emotional background in terms of how I approach story anyway. I look at that movie now and I go, oh, that's me trying to process 9/11. Right? That's obvious, I mean, we talk about it, but it's like, they're the sort of, and that part of processing that sort of level of destruction was, there aren't easy answers. Like, that's, it was actually intentional that there weren't easy answers because it was about connection.

• 38:44Speaker 03

  Like, going back to like themes I now see with the benefit of time in everything I do, Cloverfield is just about these characters trying to reach out for each other. Right? That's what, like, it's like, oh, I keep writing about this theme, right? I keep writing, I don't mean to be, it's not conscious, but it is about characters reaching out for connection amidst a crazy backdrop. And, and the fact that it is actually weirdly militant that way, saying like, you know what? We're not gonna get into like an elaborate alien, you know, conspiracy, because that's not what this movie is. This movie is about people on the ground, right? I think that carries over now that we're talking about it. I mean, that's Hail Mary, right? Like, that's what we're talking about. It's like, oh, that's a schoolteacher in space.

• 39:28Speaker 03

  Like, these are the things I am clearly drawn to.

• 39:31Josh Horowitz?

  So, for nearly 20 years, I feel like I've been asking Matt, JJ, probably you, about Cloverfield continuations. Obviously, there's been Ten Cloverfield Lane, the Cloverfield Paradox, but I know for a fact from past conversations, like, you guys have talked about it, you've had different ideas, like, even as, as late as, I think, like, 2018, JJ said at CinemaCon, like, we finally, we've got like a continuation in mind.

• 39:53Speaker 03

  Yeah, I don't know. Well, I think part of what happened is, we all got real busy.

• 39:58Josh Horowitz?

  Sure.

• 39:58Speaker 03

  Like, we, and we also, again, didn't want to do it for the sake of doing it.

• 40:01Josh Horowitz?

  Right.

• 40:02Speaker 03

  I kind of feel the same way about Cloverfield that I felt. About Buffy, which was the end of Buffy, which was, oh, no, this is a, this is a world where because it's not about some plot, I actually don't feel ownership of what everyone else wants to do, right? It's a wonderful umbrella for letting other artists put themselves and come up with something. And I actually think that's great.

• 40:25Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 40:25Speaker 03

  I want them to go do that because it's not like they're going to screw up the alien invasion story that I had set up.

• 40:31Josh Horowitz?

  That wasn't the point for you.

• 40:32Speaker 03

  No, we didn't set up anything. Like, so you should, Godspeed.

• 40:36Josh Horowitz?

  So was there ever an idea that you were kind of close to really pushing?

• 40:40Speaker 03

  Yeah, I always have had ideas and I weirdly, I could see before the end of things for me, returning to that universe. Like, it's just a wonderful, I loved it. I loved that style. It really opened up, combining those two genres, the sort of found footage and big spectacle really allowed some wonderful things and I could see myself returning.

• 41:03Josh Horowitz?

  We should give some love to Cabin in the Woods, which what a directing debut. I mean, that's a, which again, like, very, I mean, your filmography is all over the place in the best possible way. Like, there are like kind of two sides of Druid that I see. It's kind of like the deconstructionist and kind of like then like the loyalist to the genre.

• 41:20Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 41:20Josh Horowitz?

  And this is like the deconstructionist side. The Cabin in the Woods is kind of like, kind of fucking with the things you love and hate about horror, fair enough? Is that fair to say?

• 41:28Speaker 03

  I think so. It certainly is the most deconstructionist because I, it's funny because I don't know that I set out to deconstruct.

• 41:35Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 41:36Speaker 03

  Maybe on Cabin. Cabin was definitely one where the question of why do we feel the need to watch teenagers be butchered on screen? Like, what is it about, not the horror genre, big picture, but it was very specifically like butchering youth, right? Was something that clearly was in my head of watching kids go to war, you know, like it was, I was of that generation where we were starting to see people sent to war for reasons we did not understand at all. And I think that was part of it and understanding like this is speaking to a much bigger question.

• 42:08Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 42:10Speaker 03

  And yet, we also, I also love horror films, so you also want to do both, like, play around in it. I think the deconcer can happen a little bit, but then by the end, it sort of becomes a statement of, oh no, we love the genre, right? It does. So, which I think is probably anytime I'm ever working in a genre, it's because I love the genre.

• 42:31Josh Horowitz?

  I'm always amazed when I see like a first time feature, like from a director, like obviously you had a ton of experience as a writer, but like, that had such a sure hand, like you could feel, you feel a sure hand as a director in that one. And especially as I recall, if correct me wrong, like I feel like it sat on the shelf for a bit, there were some studio issues, like the ending, I could see being a bit controversial. Like, was there pressure to change the ending? Did you?

• 42:53Speaker 03

  No, we never had pressure to change the ending, but what did happen was MGM went bankrupt and got bought, right? And so they got sold. So suddenly, or in the process of selling a studio or buying a studio, it takes years.

• 43:06Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 43:07Speaker 03

  So we were like, oh no, like this is going to take a while because if you don't, if a studio's, you know, bankrupt, they can't pay for marketing. You need marketing to release a film. Like it's just not coming out. It's not as simple. It's like, well, just put it out. At the time, there's no streaming even. So you couldn't even put it anywhere. You just had to wait, which I think the thing that got me through was I knew like, well, sooner or later, this will come out.

• 43:32Josh Horowitz?

  But the worry is though, and I remember like even I was covering stuff by them. It's like there's this, there's the stink of something when it's been sitting around. You're like, there's a problem.

• 43:38Speaker 03

  I know.

• 43:39Josh Horowitz?

  There's something.

• 43:39Speaker 03

  And, and look, you really, weirdly, I kind of liked that.

• 43:44Josh Horowitz?

  You go set low expectations.

• 43:46Speaker 03

  Yeah, I'm, I'm, I love a low expectation because.

• 43:48Josh Horowitz?

  You should not be working on any weird projects then.

• 43:51Speaker 03

  Well, that's the problem. At the time, but Martian was very low expectation. So, yeah, I'm way more comfortable with that, in that because it, it, it's also more delightful. Like there was a, there was always my favorite moment in Cabin where. The movie, you kind of think, okay, I'm getting it. I see it as a slasher film. They're doing a send up or something. And then about halfway through, it starts to click of like, oh no, that's not what this is at all. And there's a moment, I mean, we've all, anyone who was in the theater, when those kids decide to open those elevators, you could feel every single time, you could feel the audience just start to cackle. Like you could just feel before it happened, like, oh, the anticipation of what's about to happen. And I, that was every time we screened it, we'd feel that same thing.

• 44:34Speaker 03

  So I always knew we had that in our back pocket. Like no matter what, I got that. We can do, we just got to get it out there when at the right time. Cause you, you also want people to get it. And do Lions, Lionsgate finally came in, saw the movie and goes, we don't want to change a thing. We love this movie. And I was like, thank God. Great. It's worth waiting for. I'd much rather wait and be in there with the right partners than rush something.

• 44:56Josh Horowitz?

  Here's, here's a film I'm fascinated by. Correct me if I'm wrong. You were part of the brain trust that kind of got World War Z to the finish line, which is, for those who don't know, this is a very unusual circumstance. Like sure, movies are rewritten. There's additional photography. But the whole ending, the whole third act of that film basically changed and you were one of the key people that kind of came in to kind of help salvage it essentially.

• 45:19Speaker 03

  They, so they, you know, and I, I do this a lot. I, I, I love, anytime anyone asks me, can you take a look at a film that, tell me how to make it better. I'm always like, sure. If I can, if I have time, you know, it's fun and try to be helpful and you get to, you learn a lot too. From these things, because all movies struggle. Like I don't care what the movie is. I don't care what filmmaker that you, you love and is are positive.

• 45:41Josh Horowitz?

  There was a moment in that process where that was gonna be disastrous.

• 45:45Speaker 03

  And so it's, it's part of the process is to just look at it. I think World War Z for a variety of reasons that I don't even know, right?

• 45:53Josh Horowitz?

  By the time you got there, stuff had happened.

• 45:55Speaker 03

  Well, Damon LaFitt lost, he had called me and said, they asked me to come look at this movie and I think they want to do some pretty drastic things to it. Will you come look at it? And I said, of course. And I, but I, we watched it and I remember thinking, oh no, I actually don't. Usually I have some ideas, but I looked at this one and went. The only idea is we have to change the whole back half. I don't see how to and I said that is like that's what I think too and that's what they think. And I said, there's no way that's possible because what we're talking about.

• 46:24Josh Horowitz?

  Is it very expensive?

• 46:26Speaker 03

  Fifty pages. We ended up writing fifty new pages, which it's a page a minute. So it's fifty new minutes of of stuff to shoot like.

• 46:34Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 46:34Speaker 03

  That's a lot, but I and I and they got a lot of Paramount at the time got a lot of grief for that.

• 46:39Josh Horowitz?

  Right.

• 46:39Speaker 03

  But I was like, no, the story's wrong here.

• 46:42Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 46:42Speaker 03

  This is a this this story should be a studio said, we're going to invest what we need to invest to make this movie work.

• 46:49Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 46:49Speaker 03

  Right? Because they're all messy. Like you need.

• 46:52Josh Horowitz?

  The easier thing would be to dump it and move on to the next.

• 46:55Speaker 03

  It was really encouraging that like, you know, ten years later Marvel sort of adopted this into their style. They said, you know what? It is going to be rough on that for and we're going to learn something. Let's just plan to shoot.

• 47:05Josh Horowitz?

  Bacon additional photography.

• 47:06Speaker 03

  It was so smart because it's like and you could see how that really changed and made their movies better.

• 47:11Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 47:11Speaker 03

  And I remember at the time because he's grateful that they did. And so it was it became like, let's just be helpful and write new stuff. And luckily it worked out.

• 47:18Josh Horowitz?

  Did you work on the the Fincher sequel?

• 47:21Speaker 03

  No.

• 47:21Josh Horowitz?

  Okay.

• 47:22Speaker 03

  No.

• 47:22Josh Horowitz?

  I'm fascinated.

• 47:23Speaker 03

  I know. I'm fascinated.

• 47:24Josh Horowitz?

  David Fincher was close to directing a World War Z movie? Come on.

• 47:27Speaker 03

  I mean, it's gotta be one of those great like what ifs.

• 47:31Josh Horowitz?

  Speaking of what ifs, this is a good, good segue. Sinister Six.

• 47:35Speaker 03

  Oh, yeah. Yeah, yeah.

• 47:36Josh Horowitz?

  I don't know if this is a sore point or it's a happy memory. I mean, was it a completed script? I mean.

• 47:41Speaker 03

  Oh, yeah. No, we were in prep. We were in deep prep. I had a whole art department. Mike Martin Wist was my production designer who did Cabin with me, who did Bad Times with the All Out, did Cloverfield. Like, we had a whole operation there at the Sony lot. And it was a definitely a it was a very Drew approach to a Spider-Man movie, I would say, in the sense of like, I was swinging for the fences. Like, we were going for it.

• 48:05Josh Horowitz?

  You said it was it was kind of a heist movie? You would describe it as that? No?

• 48:08Speaker 03

  Well, uh, maybe I did. I mean, what I thought of it is was a summer annual. And if you're a comic book reader. Especially at the time I was making it, I felt that comic books became very much about this serialized story. The movies became so much about like, well, this movie's just about somebody gets a jewel to get to the next thing, to get to the thing.

• 48:27Josh Horowitz?

  Right.

• 48:27Speaker 03

  And it worked really well, but I felt like what I loved about summer annuals in comic book, the comic book world is you had the serialized story.

• 48:34Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 48:35Speaker 03

  And then every summer, there would be a giant sized issue that had nothing to do with the serialized story, where the main character usually got yanked out of the normal life.

• 48:43Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 48:44Speaker 03

  And thrown into an insane situation. And that's what I wanted to do with Spider-Man. I just felt like that would be fun and let's go for it and let's sort of throw all the things that I love about Spider-Man in there. And they let me do it. And the problem was, I remember sitting there with my script the Wednesday before Thanksgiving, when the FBI swarms up to the Sony lot and the helicopters. And I'm like, what's going on? And I remember, I saw Michael Linton walking past and I'm like, Michael, what's happening? He's like, this is the FBI. All the computers are down. I'm sorry, I gotta go. Like, he didn't have time to talk to me.

• 49:20Josh Horowitz?

  Sure.

• 49:21Speaker 03

  But I remember thinking, oh, this is bad. Cause I called my assistant and go, I think you can go home for the day. It seems like we should probably, we're done. I don't think any of us realized how bad it was going to be. But over the course of the next few weeks, you saw the damage that it got, that happened to Sony. We were one of the casualties of it.

• 49:40Josh Horowitz?

  So was, was the six, was it, was it Doc Ock, Vulture, Kraven, Mysterio, Sandman, Electro? Is that what my six was?

• 49:47Speaker 03

  Uh, no, but it may have been at different versions that was the case. Like, we've changed, like,

• 49:53Josh Horowitz?

  Sure.

• 49:54Speaker 03

  as one can imagine.

• 49:55Josh Horowitz?

  Of course.

• 49:56Speaker 03

  One of the fun parts of Sinister, any Sinister Six story is picking who the six are.

• 50:01Josh Horowitz?

  Right.

• 50:01Speaker 03

  And, oh my God. I mean, that alone, when you ask like, am I sad? I'm obviously sad I didn't get to make the movie, but I did get to make the movie for myself. I'm just sad no one else got to see it. I got to spend, when I think of it like this, is I spent a year of my life. Playing with Spider-Man.

• 50:17Josh Horowitz?

  Right.

• 50:17Speaker 03

  Like that was my job. So I'm not angry about it. I'm actually, I'm grateful. I'm always grateful that anyone pays me to do anything. Like anyone that gives, that I can make a living doing art. And if you told me I could just come up with Spider-Man stories for a year.

• 50:31Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 50:32Speaker 03

  Great.

• 50:33Josh Horowitz?

  Speaking of that, like, was there, correct me if I'm wrong, was there a moment after that, that you were close to actually doing a Spider-Man film? And was that the next at a rate? Was that Spider-Man 3 of, of Andrew? Or was that the next new Spider-Man?

• 50:46Speaker 03

  I mean, I don't know that. I, I, the truth is, I've been fortunate enough to be asked to do a lot of different superhero films. And I don't, we're now talking about so long, I don't know what's official and what's not.

• 51:01Josh Horowitz?

  It's fine, man.

• 51:01Speaker 03

  But I always am grateful that where people want to talk and I'm always, it's all about timing. So much of this stuff is about timing and the right fit. Because I don't like to do, I don't like to just do it for the sake of doing it. I like to be able, like, no, like any of these movies that we're talking about, we're talking about three years of my life.

• 51:17Josh Horowitz?

  Yes.

• 51:17Speaker 03

  Right? It's three years. And so I have to sort of, that has to line up with what they want to do and make sure it's the right fit. And when it's not, we just realize, we'll do it later. Well, like, nothing ever really dies.

• 51:27Josh Horowitz?

  It'll be reiterated, whether it's.

• 51:28Speaker 03

  I'm a patient person and it's more important that we do it right than we do it.

• 51:32Josh Horowitz?

  Well, like, every actor at some point will play Hamlet in Batman.

• 51:35Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 51:35Josh Horowitz?

  And every writer-director will do a Spider-Man movie.

• 51:38Speaker 03

  That's how it feels. That is how it feels, yes.

• 51:41Josh Horowitz?

  Um, I mean, yeah, that, I mean, dovetails, like, the X-Force movie was essentially that, right? And that's a casualty, essentially, of the merger.

• 51:48Speaker 03

  Yeah, I mean, I, I have been in the middle of so many mergers, that at a certain point, I'm starting to wonder, is it me? Is this me?

• 51:56Josh Horowitz?

  Can we just settle down?

• 51:57Speaker 03

  Is there something I'm doing to cause these things? Because Bad Times in the LRO happened too. Like, we were at Fox and then Disney bought it. You know, and like, suddenly, we're like, in this situation where they're like, if you don't just rush this out, it's going to be the first thing on a streaming service that doesn't exist yet. Because we didn't even, Disney Plus didn't exist yet, but they knew, like, oh my God, they're where, they're, it's a fire sale going on.

• 52:19Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 52:20Speaker 03

  And so, again, similarly, I just knew, like, well, as long as they don't make me change the movie, I can, it will be okay. Um, but it it has happened enough times to me that I'm now a little bit, um, because it happened on Hail Mary. I mean, that's the thing. So we, Mike DeLuca and Pam Abdi bought Hail Mary for MGM. They greenlit it and then they MGM gets bought by Amazon. So now, and then Mike and Pam go to Warner Brothers. Luckily Courtney Valenti in her crew saw what we were doing and kept it going. But there was a point where on the call, I'm like with my agent, I'm like, yep, here we are again. Yet again, another studio has been bought while we're in the middle of something. Yeah.

• 52:58Josh Horowitz?

  Oh, my God. I got a few more things to hit up, hit you up. Your resume is too long. Sorry. Uh, I mean Daredevil, obviously, which was something you were obviously in on the ground for that one for the Netflix iteration. Um, and I think that you left that, I guess, was El Royale? Was that, I'm trying to remember that, or was like?

• 53:15Speaker 03

  That one, and I didn't, I think that was one, just to correct the record on, because I think it was a time where I wish I was talked about more. I was like, oh, no, I was always planning to.

• 53:26Josh Horowitz?

  Get it going and then.

• 53:27Speaker 03

  Well, it'd just be there. Never, never peace out. Like, that's, I, it just, there's a difference between who's the showrunner.

• 53:33Josh Horowitz?

  Right. You were never going to be the showrunner.

• 53:34Speaker 03

  I was not going to be the showrunner. Like, we, we had talked, but I don't know that that was clear to everyone. Right? And part of it is you're just making the show at the beginning and you don't, I also don't want to come out and say I'm not, because then people start to think, wait, why isn't he? What, you know, it becomes a story where we're like, let's just make our show. Everything, everyone. But I think what happened was the Martian then gets greenlit, right? And at the time, I was going to direct that. Yeah. So this is a whole complicated time in my life. But I, I was like, okay, great. Well, this is gonna be fine, because I'll just, you know, we have wonderful writers, like Steve DeKnight comes aboard. And he, you know, Steve and I go way back. And I was like, there's nobody better to do Daredevil than Steve DeKnight. Like, I'm here to be helpful. Like, let's, we, we'd

• 54:17Speaker 03

  mapped out the whole seasons already. So it was like, now it's just about Steve making it his own, right? So it was, it was, I mean, that's why I'm still credited on all of those, because we just kept working. I, I think it was, looking back, I think we should have just been more clear with the public.

• 54:33Josh Horowitz?

  Was that, was that initially a pitch as a? Film that became the series?

• 54:38Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 54:38Josh Horowitz?

  And what was the, what was the film? Was that, did that?

• 54:40Speaker 03

  So, yeah, I guess that's fine. Like, so I remember, cause I, you know, I love Kevin Feige, I am. There's, there's no producer that I have more respect for in this space than Kevin. Like, we don't need to explain why Kevin's so, but he is. And I remember like we were sitting and just, probably because I was around when they were doing one of the Avengers, you know, just hanging out, talking about other things. And I said, I was always like, why aren't you making Daredevil movie? Well, I don't understand. And I think there was concern by, by that it was too adult, like to do devil, Daredevil right.

• 55:18Josh Horowitz?

  Yes. If you're going to be true to the comic, you're not doing a.

• 55:20Speaker 03

  Which I actually understood. I was like, and, and the Marvel model at that time was definitely not played to adults, you know? Or, I mean, played to adult, adult.

• 55:30Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah. I mean, they still haven't done an R rated film yet. I mean.

• 55:33Speaker 03

  But I said, I remember saying like, well, here's my vision. My vision is that the first one would be the Kingpin, because it just felt wrong to me to like, don't overthink it. Like, find a way to make that special. It's, it's, it's more about the tone. Cause we hadn't seen that kind of tone.

• 55:49Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 55:50Speaker 03

  But then I was like, my second, the second movie, the idea was, um, I think the villain of the second movie should be the Punisher. And I remember that, that everyone in the room was like, oh, that's exciting. Like that's, that's what, that's what it should be, you know? Like rather than do they like, oh, cause I love, I love anytime to quote unquote heroes go to battle with each other, right? And I, and that, to be fair, we got to do it. Like, that's what happened. So we just did it on Netflix, which I think was the right fit for that.

• 56:20Josh Horowitz?

  You have a relationship with James Gunn as well, right?

• 56:22Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 56:22Josh Horowitz?

  I mean, it's a small town in a way. And like, James, I think has said that you were part of kind of that initial writer's room that kind of helped hatch the initial idea of what his DCU would be. I mean, do you remember what that was like to kind of, I mean, I know enough about how the sausage is made that it's like often just can be a few days. It's a week, it's a retreat. Is it one of those things where you're just literally, there's a whiteboard and like, what would you do with all these heroes?

• 56:45Speaker 03

  It's not. Unlike what I just described when I'm starting out adapting a book.

• 56:51Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah, what do we love?

• 56:52Speaker 03

  What do we love? Like, just start there. Don't overthink it, you know? If anything, I just went in there and listened to James's passion and said, you should just do that. I think sometimes, you know, I think we need, I think as artists, we are, especially in the film business, we are constantly under siege.

• 57:09Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 57:09Speaker 03

  From sort of people telling you why something's a bad idea, or why you can't do something, or why this won't work, right? Sometimes it's just helpful to hear, you know, what I, all I did on there, I'm happy to know James thinks I was helpful. I don't think I was helpful. I think all I did was say, James, your ideas are wonderful. Just do those ideas. That sounds great. But to be fair, I think that is valuable sometimes to just have somebody come in and say, is this good?

• 57:36Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 57:37Speaker 03

  Because I don't know if it's good yet. And in that case, it was good. He pitched, he pitched the Superman movie that you guys have now seen. But I remember him talking through and how, and the tone he was chasing. And I remember thinking, oh, that's exactly what Superman needs.

• 57:51Josh Horowitz?

  Is there anything on the DC side that you're just as a fan, whether you participate or not, that you're excited? That hasn't been realized yet that would be cool to see?

• 57:59Speaker 03

  Oh, that's a good question. I'm sure the answer is yes, but I'm hesitant to say because then the story will become not that, oh, Drew's doing this. There's so much. I mean, again, I still, I'm the boy who had this stuff on his walls as a kid, so I'm sure the answer is yes.

• 58:15Josh Horowitz?

  Okay, the last topic, which I'm sure you know is coming, is The Matrix.

• 58:19Speaker 03

  Sure.

• 58:19Josh Horowitz?

  Drew, The Matrix. I mean, come on. You're not taking on easy assignments. And I know you probably don't want to divulge much yet, but we know that you've been on board to potentially write and direct a Matrix film. Tell me what you love about The Matrix, first of all. I mean, that's, I mean, it's a seminal work. It threw all our brains apart 25 years ago.

• 58:42Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 58:43Josh Horowitz?

  What did you respond to? What do you want to capture?

• 58:44Speaker 03

  I think anyone who was alive in that time when it came out and saw The Matrix in the theater, right? Remembers cinema as before and after The Matrix.

• 58:56Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 58:56Speaker 03

  Right? They're just, it was, it was not. I remember how it felt when Empire Strikes Back came out, where Star Wars came out. I was, I was, I was probably four when, uh, two when Star Wars came out. So I don't really, I feel like I remember, I, I remember being obsessed, but, but I remember that and then, and then it becomes the Matrix, right? Where you just go, oh, somebody did something I didn't even realize was possible, right?

• 59:21Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 59:23Speaker 03

  And there's so much, I mean, but to me, the sort of existential questions, right? The existential questions of the Matrix, I, really moved me. I think it doesn't get, I don't think Lana and Lily get enough credit for the emotion and the emotional side of that story and all of their work. I find their work profoundly emotional.

• 59:47Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 59:49Josh Horowitz?

  There's nothing to do it to a Cloud Atlas fan here.

• 59:51Speaker 03

  Yes, right?

• 59:52Josh Horowitz?

  You're in a safe space.

• 59:53Speaker 03

  One of my favorite things about Cloud Atlas is that there are times where I start crying in Cloud Atlas and I have no idea why I'm crying. Like I actually don't know what it is. Like usually you know, oh, this is why, uh, there's times where I'm watching Cloud Atlas and there, uh, and I love that feeling. I love that feeling when emotion is welling up in me and I don't quite understand it because it suggests we're digging deep, like we're, we're looking at something and I feel that with Lana and Lily's work so strongly. So that's it. It's, it's the thing that all of these things that we're discussing have in common, right? Whether it's Andy Weir's writing, whether it's Daredevil comics, right? Whether it's Buffy the Vampire Slayer, the thing that they all have in common with me

• 1:00:33Speaker 03

  is all of them moved me profoundly and I was lucky enough to get to work in that, right? And so.

• 1:00:40Josh Horowitz?

  Like, does this, can you say at least that, did this start as just like an unsolicited pitch? Like, were they looking for ideas for a Matrix and you said, hey, I got something?

• 1:00:48Speaker 03

  No, it's, it's a lot of, because again, all, I've been doing this a long time. So a lot of this is just. People ask, hey, would you ever be interested?

• 1:00:58Josh Horowitz?

  Yes.

• 1:00:58Speaker 03

  Would you ever be interested in this, right? Like, would you ever be interested? And it's, I really appreciate it because I like to talk because it's really, sometimes you come up with your best ideas. When you don't think you're ever going to do something, right? When you just think, oh, but what if I did do, James has mentioned, it's like, what if I did do a detective chimp movie? What would that, like, let's just pretend that I had.

• 1:01:17Josh Horowitz?

  Let's go down that road for a second.

• 1:01:19Speaker 03

  Right, let's just enjoy that. Let's not think about like, how would you actually do, just go like, well, let's, and you'd be amazed at what can happen. And I think that's kind of what happened where I was like, well, no, they don't, I don't know that they need me, you know? But oh, let's think about it. And then you just keep having conversations and that's still where we're at. It's like, I, I see the headlines because I'm on this pred, press tour and I'm like, oh, I mean, I wish I didn't have to say anything. But to be fair, it's a, it's a reasonable question.

• 1:01:47Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 1:01:47Speaker 03

  And the truth is that we're still figuring it out. I'm still, you know, in that, I call it the writing cave because, and that's why I'm hesitant to say anything because I may change my mind in a month. There may no, be no Warner Brothers in two months. Like, I don't, like, we don't know. And so it's, it's, it's a little premature. It's a little premature to be talking about any of this. And yet, to be fair, I understand why people want to.

• 1:02:11Josh Horowitz?

  Again, tip of the iceberg, your resume speaks for itself, but I'm so glad we had a chance to catch up. Uh, and use the Project Hail Mary as a good excuse. Um, movie's fantastic. You know, I'm a fan.

• 1:02:20Speaker 03

  Thank you, Josh.

• 1:02:21Josh Horowitz?

  Uh, everybody should check it out again, because if you're listening or watching this, you've watched it, I'm sure. Uh, but support it, support Drew, um, and thanks, man. Thanks for stopping by. Appreciate you.

• 1:02:30Speaker 03

  This has been a joy. Thank you. Thank you for these conversations all these years. It really means the world to me, Josh.

• 1:02:35Josh Horowitz?

  Anytime.

• 1:02:37Speaker 01

  And so ends another edition of Happy, Sad, Confused. Remember to review, rate and subscribe to this show on iTunes or wherever you get your podcasts. I'm a big podcast person. I'm Daisy Ridley and I definitely wasn't pressured to do this by Josh.

• 1:02:56Speaker 01

  It's the feeling of escapism, the call of glory that drives us to build fantastic worlds.

• 1:03:01Speaker 06

  Yet some grow darker than others. Dark Dice is the improvised horror podcast diving into the depths of madness and the corrupt divine in the fantasy realm of terror. Wayward souls who dare risk their characters at our table bring our stories to crawling life. Enhanced with award-winning soundscapes and music, Dark Dice mixes the role of the dice with the drive to survive. So join us and hear the horrors of Dark Dice wherever you listen to podcasts.