The Truth About The Patriarchy: Men Don't Benefit Anymore - George TheTinMen

George TheTinMen is a content creator, pro-men’s advocate and social media influencer. Men's mental health is in the toilet. 80% of 18-24 year old suicides are men. 15% of men say they have 0 close friends to call on in an emergency. So why does it seem like the world doesn't care and just thinks that men are still the benefactors of a patriarchy they no longer feel a part of? Expect to learn why Drake's dick pic leak was such an important cultural moment, whether Billie Eilish is right that men don't receive criticism for their bodies, the reaction online to a new study saying that men need 2 guys' nights per week, what Are We Dating The Same Guy is, whether men have reproductive rights and much more... - 00:00 New Study About Guy Nights 06:00 What Do Women Think Guys Are Doing Together? 11:35 Explaining ‘Are We Dating the Same Guy?’ Facebook Groups 16:30 The Path to Becoming a Female Incel 20:19 Women Bragging About Abusing Men 29:09 The Advantage Women Have Over Men 33:13 Hollywood’s Damaging Portrayal of Women 37:40 The Strange Laws Around Female Sexual Assault 47:20 What Are We Misunderstanding About Domestic Violence? 55:10 Do Men Have Reproductive Rights? 1:01:54 Responding to Billie Eilish’s Comments About Men 1:07:34 Men Are Facing Higher Discrimination Than Women 1:16:38 Placing Female Victimhood on a Pedestal 1:20:00 What the Right is Telling Men 1:28:20 Sexual Assault in Male Prisons 1:32:46 The Disposability of Men 1:39:48 The Current State of Men’s Advocacy 1:48:07 Will There Be a Minister for Men? 1:53:04 Where to Find George - Get access to every episode 10 hours before YouTube by subscribing for free on Spotify - https://spoti.fi/2LSimPn or Apple Podcasts - https://apple.co/2MNqIgw Get my free Reading List of 100 life-changing books here - https://chriswillx.com/books/ Try my productivity energy drink Neutonic here - https://neutonic.com/modernwisdom - Get in touch in the comments below or head to... Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/chriswillx Twitter: https://www.twitter.com/chriswillx Email: https://chriswillx.com/contact/

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Chris Williamson?

  What happened when Robin Dunbar's new study came out about men needing two guy nights per week in order to stay healthy?

• 0:08George?

  I saw it mentioned a bunch of times on various social media channels and it was basically saying that men need two guy nights a week. So for their, for their health and their mental health, obviously male suicide is a massive issue, especially in Western society. And one of the most key factors of male suicide is male loneliness, male isolation. So he, he was looking into that and he found that two nights a week for guys is sort of the ample amount. And then as social media normally does, it sort of kicks off, everyone goes crazy. You know, everyone's whining, making it about themselves and everyone found the idea of two guy nights a week for men just too intolerable. And then they want to know how many, how many nights for women, it's got to be seven at least and all I want is time alone. And maybe it's great if they go, so you don't have to spend time with them.

• 0:53George?

  And honestly, the comments on each of those posts are all the same, just a bunch of whiny narcissists making it about themselves. And just totally ignoring the fact that male suicide is a massive issue, male loneliness is a key part of that. And I'm sure you've seen the comments for yourself, Chris.

• 1:08Chris Williamson?

  Yeah, some of my favourites, and this is why women don't want to have their babies. This article was written by a man child. Everyone caters to men enough as it is, we're tired of hearing you whining. The world is your playground and you still cry all the time.

• 1:25George?

  This is, this is like really great, to sort of self-selects because those women are all taking themselves out of men's lives. And we all appreciate that too, like we, I do like those, they all sound like really horrible people. And people would just sort of, they painted in a picture of their own creation. They were like, oh, you don't want to spend time with your children or your wives. And no one said anything about children, not talking about fathers, talking about men as a general group. And the point was lost completely of male isolation and loneliness is a massive issue right now. And there's nothing wrong with wanting to spend a bit of time with your mates, doesn't necessarily mean have to be at a pub. Could be playing computer games, it could be like this. It's just the idea of men talking and sharing time together is a really, really important issue. And unfortunately, just a mere mention of that is too much for some people to handle.

• 2:09Chris Williamson?

  Can you steel man the other side? What's the best interpretation of why people had a problem with men getting two nights a week to themselves?

• 2:17George?

  Uh, I I've learned about a meme called, is it Saturdays are for the boys? Which became like a toxic meme where the idea was that Saturday was supposed to be the boys' night. And I I know I've I've dated quite a few women that have have had really fair complaints about men that they've dated. Where they play Xbox every single night, or they do go and see the boys every single, every night and get drunk and hung over the next day. And like, like all things, if you if you peel back all the outrage and hysteria, there is actually a fair point. And I do feel like that that there are some valid criticisms of men spending too much time together. I I don't buy into the whole toxicity of male-only spaces. I think male-only spaces are a really important part of men understanding each other, male bonding, male socialisation.

• 3:00George?

  I feel the exact same way about women's spaces, but I feel like there's a lot of women out there who have a very, have had a very negative set of experiences of sort of dating men who are not given the time they did want or deserve. Uh, so I see, I think there's probably a fair reason behind it. I just wish they would tone it down a little bit.

• 3:18Chris Williamson?

  But why is it? Why? What what do you think triggered that issue? Is it just more sort of low-resolution thinking about male privilege? Oh, well, they've already got it easy in the office and then they're not going to contribute to the housework and they're going to go out with their friends. Is it a threat somehow that spending time with the boys is a threat to the relationship?

• 3:38George?

  I just think it it seems to stem from a very fundamental misunderstanding of male loneliness. And a set of experiences that I I don't think women can quite understand what it is like to be a lonely man. And the unique sense of isolation many men feel and how that links to male suicide. I think, I just don't think they can quite understand the same experience. Um, and and also people just struggle to comprehend of the idea of men having issues inflicted upon them. People are happy to talk about male suffering, but only in the context of it's the man doing it to himself. It's his toxic masculinity, or it's the bloody patriarchy backfiring. People struggle or are just totally disinterested in the idea that something is happening to men that they do not have control over. They do not have agency or autonomy over, and they are the victims in their own right.

• 4:23George?

  And male isolation is not a self-inflicted problem. Um, part of it surely is, but it's a much wider issue. And one of those issues is people would not want to talk about male, male guys' nights and thinking it's inherently a bad thing, which it isn't. Uh, I mean, I've I've been, I went to one house party once ago, what, ages ago, a uni, went to a house party and no women turned up. No, not single woman turned, one woman turned up and then left. And it was just the ultimate sausage fest. And I tell you, it was the best house party I've ever been to.

• 4:54George?

  It was just like, everyone's, everyone stopped trying to like, just like basically fuck women. Everyone stopped trying to impress women and out for each other. And it was just the lads, we had like arm wrestle tournaments. We had like, um, it had this massive giant banana hanging from the ceiling and everyone was trying to kick. It was just like the most amazing, amazing house party I've ever been to. And it was like, it was almost like it was spiritual almost. And I'm just like, I really believe in it. And it's, I guess it paints a wide, the problem, the wider problem is a lack of male spaces. And, and how society uh is impacted and damaged as a result of that, like youth clubs, for example. And the, the closing of youth clubs in London and how that impacts knife crime going up.

• 5:36George?

  Because closing these male spaces, uh like Boy Scouts, for example, like the men, the boys and men go elsewhere. And often they're taken to gangs. Uh and then you obviously got to look at that within the context of like fatherlessness. And the lack of male role models in schools and the lack of male role models in TV. Overall, like we're just losing these male spaces and these conversations for men. Uh and that's, yeah, that's my, my perspective of it.

• 6:00Chris Williamson?

  Yeah, it's strange. I, I wonder how much of it is that women don't know what guys get up to. When it's just them and their guy friends. I, I wonder whether they think that it's, you know, that, that this is finally the patriarchy getting their opportunity to plot the downfall. It's that, I wonder if he's thinking of me, me.

• 6:20George?

  Yeah.

• 6:20Chris Williamson?

  All over. And it's always like a dude thinking that if he doesn't do this next deadlift, his whole family's gonna die. Or him and his friends, like seeing who can do the loudest fart using a decibel meter that someone's brought in from work, like.

• 6:35George?

  Yeah, I mean, I, I mean. I don't think women quite understand what it is to be with the boys. It's interesting. It's that classic story you hear where, you know, husband goes out, spends the night with the lads, comes home and the next day is his wife or girlfriend is asking him all about it and what's so and so up to and how are the children? And he knows none of it. Like he's not asking any, anything about your family or friends or what you're doing. How's work? We just talk about the most random in say like who's going to win a fight between King Kong and Godzilla, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. And that's like, I feel like that's great. Like it's a chance to like unwind and not talk about really intense things and like relax, I think.

• 7:11Chris Williamson?

  It's an interesting, it's an interesting duality, right? Because on one side, there is this push for men to open up and talk about their feelings more, for them to get in touch with their feelings, to be emotionally more mature, to be more well-balanced members of society. But this requirement of men to be with other men. Like if you were to say that brunch with the girls is like part of a messandrist conspiracy theory to keep men out from bottomless prosecco meetings or something. It would be ridiculous, but because for a long time,

• 7:54Chris Williamson?

  some male-only spaces were vaulted positions of power in which there were meetings going on where, you know, how the high-powered lawyers and the people that were doing investments and so on and so forth. But in January of last year, the highest number of female CEOs ever were recruited and it was like over a third of CEOs were women. I don't know how many women want to be CEOs. My point being that a lot of male spaces have been destroyed and a lot of the upper echelons that were gendered spaces have also been cut down for precisely that reason. But it's also caused all of the stuff at the bottom end of the funnel to get destroyed too.

• 8:34Chris Williamson?

  Like Boys Night got, that puberty post got thousands and thousands of comments from people, mostly women, almost exclusively women, who had problems with it.

• 8:47George?

  Yeah, I mean. Yes, I just don't want to get distracted by that, the one single post. It's sort of, it's a much wider problem and it doesn't go both ways. Although we are closing down these male spaces, we're not, we're not doing the same to women's spaces. Women's spaces are held up and protected and funded and set up in more or less every corner of society and like quite rightly so, like there's, there's like, even like Boy Scouts does accept girls, but Girl Scouts doesn't accept boys. That was one of the first conversations I had with someone and by conversation, I mean someone shouting in my face. And they were like, oh, it was a, a friend of mine who's a woman and she was, I went to Boy Scouts. I really enjoyed it. And I was like, that's great. I really think girls should have opportunity to learn these skills. I went to Boy Scouts and it's amazing, like learning to tie knots and like have kayaks and stuff.

• 9:31George?

  And then I asked her like, what can boys go to Girl Scouts? And then she was, I knew you were gonna say that. Finger in face shouting. I'm like, I was just like, wow, okay. And the answer is no. Then you ruined Christmas. Yeah. And there's just so many examples. Well, what about International Men's Day? That didn't have a good run either last year. It's getting better. It's getting better and better. So like every year, I mean, I do the same thing every now, every year I check out Google and I really hope for like a bespoke Google doodle. You know, every year you have like International Women's Day, of course, gets one. There's even International Bobblehead Dog Day. And I'm not joking. There's actual day for bobblehead dogs and they've got a fucking Google doodle. And I'm like, are you telling me men do not matter as much as a plastic dog that sits on your dashboard?

• 10:16George?

  And clearly they don't, but people talk about International Men's Day and they, they put it within the context of it. Oh, that sounds like White People Day or Straight, Straight Pride Day or Able Body Day. And I'm like, I always find those are such false equivalences to say being a man is the same as being white or the same as being able bodied. I'm like, well, being, that's good either way. I don't think being a woman is the same as being black. I don't think being a woman is the same as being disabled. I find they're so, those concepts so offensive. I mean, as a white person, I'm happy to say like being white in the West is more or less excellent in every single possible way. But being a man comes if it's a mixed bag of advantages, disadvantages. So it's not the same as being white and.

• 10:58George?

  Everyone says that to like to wave away International Men's Day as unnecessary. And I think it's really necessary because it actually allows us to talk about some of the issues that are quietly damaging men and boys from sort of birth right to sort of later life and death. And there needs to be a space for these discussions, either a space for discussion online or actual physical spaces for men to talk or house parties.

• 11:22Chris Williamson?

  Or kicking a banana on the ceiling.

• 11:24George?

  Honestly, I was the first person to kick the banana, by the way, and I became like, I was like a king. I got carried, I got carried.

• 11:29Chris Williamson?

  A god amongst men.

• 11:31George?

  I got carried out of the house. Honestly, amazing.

• 11:35Chris Williamson?

  So I first learned about Are We Dating The Same Guy? On your Instagram account. And then since then, I've seen it trending more online. What is Are We Dating The Same Guy for the people who aren't familiar with it?

• 11:48George?

  Um, Are We Dating The Same Guy is a series of private Facebook groups all over the world. So if you live in a major city in the West, especially, America, Canada, UK, Australia, mostly. All the major cities have them. They have about 10,000 to over 100, 150,000 members. And they're all private. You can't join unless you're a woman. And they're basically, they started off well intended. They were about helping women make good decisions whilst dating. And sort of checking out for red flags of sort of men. And then it sort of changed. It became a bit more, a lot more toxic, got more nefarious. It became a space where women were sort of sharing photos and names and workplaces of where these men worked and like basically doxing them.

• 12:30George?

  And then humiliating them, like talking about their bodies in horrific ways. And then it got worse. And it was like women talking about their husbands and their long-term partners and how to sort of track them. I saw one story is about how to unlock your husband's phone when he's asleep using sort of facial recognition. One of them was about, I've bought my boyfriend these blue reflective glasses for light. But I bought them so I could see what he was doing on his phone in the reflection of his glasses. Like one was trying to find out the identification number of a car her husband is in. Another was how to plant Apple tags on your husband on his car. And it's just like, what started off as what seemed like a well-intended set of groups for women's safety became very much the opposite. And it became like a threat to men's safety. And like it's, it's led to suicides.

• 13:15George?

  It's led to a man being killed by his partner. And it's like, it's gone so out of hand, as it always does. And There's so many men that have messaged me being like, I've been brought up in these groups. I can't get a photo taken down. I've talked to Facebook. They don't do anything. I've done nothing wrong. Like, everything that's been said is not true. And, um, yeah, are we dating the same guy? It's a terrifying phenomenon.

• 13:36Chris Williamson?

  So it's not just about women working out whether or not they're dating the same guy?

• 13:42George?

  Um, no, it, I mean, that's how it started, but now it's just everything. There's like women offering like loyalty tests and stuff like, oh, I'm gonna talk to your boyfriend and try and get him to like flirt with me and hook up with me.

• 13:54Chris Williamson?

  Oh, like a honey trap thing?

• 13:55George?

  Yeah, honey, and it's just like, it's, it's not what it was. If it, I'm not even sure if it ever was that. But it's just gone so out of hand. Um, and they're all private. I've got a mole in a few of them.

• 14:09Chris Williamson?

  And you're the counter resistance.

• 14:10George?

  My, my girlfriend is in, in a few, and it's just like, I wanna find out what's going on. And like, oh, like some of them, some of the things you see in there are horrific. And if, if that was the inverse of like a group of hundreds of thousands of men sharing the photos and names, uh, like where they live of women, that would be, that would be outrageous. And it is outrageous. And it's just like a, a basically a kangaroo court for a bunch of resentful single women to whine about men.

• 14:40Chris Williamson?

  But, okay, so this, I thought, I thought this sounded like it had transitioned into a lot of women who had partners, but were just nervous about whether or not they were being faithful and truthful and honest.

• 14:52George?

  It's a many feathered bird. I think it's a lot. It's just a big shit show. Uh, and it's just, yeah, it's all of those things plus many more. And it's absolutely enormous. And I just hear, I'm just hearing a lot of horrible things. And, uh, it's just basically a way of bullying men and shaming men and humiliating them and just saying things about their bodies and just, look at this profile, what do you think? And then it's just that, honestly, some of the stuff you read is just horrific.

• 15:18Chris Williamson?

  Well, there was a, there was something similar like the Pink Pill on Reddit. R slash the Pink Pill and R slash female dating strategy. Do you remember that?

• 15:27George?

  Oh, yeah, yeah. I mean, yes, it's the same. It's, it's just basically another group of angry women.

• 15:37George?

  Uh ranting about men and just hating men as a generalised group, not not any specific men, just men as a concept. And it's it's dehumanising. They have their own set of languages and they call men like misters. And it's it's just a very sorry.

• 15:51Chris Williamson?

  That doesn't sound too bad. Mister doesn't sound too bad.

• 15:54George?

  I don't think I've been I'm not sure what the the concept is behind it, but I'm sure it's offensive. And it's just like, I guess, these to me feel like the female equivalent of incels, like angry, bitter, lonely women who need help, probably have a very difficult set of experiences involving men. And they've decided to take it out on the online world through these groups and others. And it's a very interesting thing. It's an interesting point about women's spaces and men's spaces and how how how do they become toxic? And they certainly do. And we need to be careful around it.

• 16:28Chris Williamson?

  I wonder if the descent into toxicity happens differently for women than it does for men. I wonder if you, you know, William Costello is doing a lot of work at the moment tracking the incelosphere, what's going on, what the what the constituent members are over representations of autism, over representations of disability, over representations of people with left leaning ideology with people who are non white. So that's interesting. But I'd love I'd love for there to be a study to look at what causes a disgruntled woman. Because, you know, in some ways, you need to do it because you say this is not good for the people that are the members of it, or for the people that are the victims on

• 17:12Chris Williamson?

  the other side of it. Like, I wouldn't say that there are any women that would be like, oh, I feel very enthused to know that the incel movement is gaining steam, or that they've got, you know, a virulent fucking forum or something like that, in the same way that men aren't going to say the same thing about women. But the other thing is, it also kind of creates a list of risk factors that people who are currently feeling healthy about whatever it is that they're doing in their life can say, oh, well, actually, X percent of people that are a member of this group, which I don't want to fall into, are they spend less than five hours with friends per week, or they had an undiagnosed psychiatric disorder, or they had like something in their childhood that came up. So what you

• 17:57Chris Williamson?

  see is these different way markers that other people can use to avoid tumbling down the same rabbit hole.

• 18:04George?

  Yeah, I mean, I, I, one of my fundamental concepts on the Tin Men is not to see people as sort of static endpoints. They're not, no one's born bad. People are the sort of the product of their life experiences. Um, and one way of seeing it is like, um, there's no such thing as abnormal behaviour. There's only, um, a normal response to an abnormal set of experiences. That's what it is. So it's like, the idea is that anything can be seen, anything can be seen as normal, if you can understand the wider context of the person making that, that decision and his behaviours. And like incels, for example, like they are so widely misunderstood in a way as you described. They are majority, according to William's research, which is

• 18:45George?

  amazing, like mostly left-leaning, mostly, um, incels of colour, as far as you put it. And, um, the funny thing is about looking at incels who are black, for example, is that people, and William said this as well, like people are a lot more compassionate, a lot more willing to talk about lonely, isolated, depressed, anxious, um, black men. But when you talk about that as white men, that's when everyone starts throwing around incel labels and starts, sort of losing their mind. But you are right, is that we are all the product of our experiences. And the women in these groups, they didn't arrive there for no reason. They've, they've been on their own journey and they probably have met a bunch of shitty guys and they probably had some horrific dates. I, when I was dating, I always used to ask the women I was dating about, like, what's your worst date? Like,

• 19:29George?

  tell me about your nightmare. And that, some of the stories I heard were horrific. And I'm happy to say I didn't have many to share on my side. I've, I've been very lucky. But you are right, in the sense that we are all formed from our experiences. We need to like, not see men, for example, as a static endpoint and ask ourselves, what has he been through to become this way, in the same way as we ask that of women in a way described. And incels, for example, like exactly, we need to grow up around incels. Like, we keep, people keep talking about being mental health advocates. And I'm like, great. Well, the incel problem is that the extreme form of that, that is the men's, the men's mental health crisis, like on steroids. And if you're not willing to talk about them in a way that isn't so dehumanising, and perhaps looks at what they've been through, and then maybe has a bit of

• 20:12George?

  compassion, then I don't know if you really are a mental health advocate at all. So yeah, I know, a lot to be said.

• 20:19Chris Williamson?

  What was Bad Girl's Advice and Jezebel? I learned about both of those. I feel like I get a window into subcultures of the internet just through your Instagram account.

• 20:29George?

  Yeah, it's terrifying. Bad Girls Advice was the same again. Both of them are the same in the sense that it was a bunch of women bragging about physically abusing their sort of partners, their male partners, beating them up and like basically sharing stories and like below that all these comments about, yeah, screen, you get him, great job. And Jezebel in particular, who have now gone bankrupt, which is great news. A few months ago, they've just closed their doors, they no longer exist. But they put that article. And the thing that's interesting about this article is that a piece of research I'm familiar with by Daniel Whitaker came out that found that half of domestic abuse is bilateral, meaning half the half of domestic abusive relationships, both partners doing

• 21:10George?

  it. And then of the other half, where it's non reciprocal, women are 70% of non reciprocally abusive relationships. So this idea of male only abuse is the is the third least, the third most popular form of abuse. That's a really interesting piece of research. But Jezebel decided to do their own thing. And for them, it became an opportunity for their editors and writers to basically, again, compare notes about boys they've dated, men they're partnered with, but beating them up, like physically abusing men in their lives, like punching them, smashing their glasses, hitting them. And it was like, again, not not through shame, not through like a sense of admission, but bragging about it.

• 21:54Chris Williamson?

  Why would they do that?

• 21:56George?

  Because there's a clear double standard between men who are violent to women and women who are violent to men. That one is seen as a joke, the other one's seen as a national epidemic.

• 22:04Chris Williamson?

  But what was the justification? I still, you know, I don't see, I can't imagine a woman who would say, congratulations, you hit your boyfriend. Is it was this like righteous retribution for the entire male sex and its misgivings against women? Is that what was happening?

• 22:23George?

  I think it's just like a massive bastardization, contortion of this sort of boss bitch queen, go get your bad girl, you're a powerful woman sort of archetype. And this is pushed to its like 150% where actually somehow they're praising violent women. And they seem to think that to be a strong woman is about being a complete dickhead. And those two are not the same thing. And. I don't know. I honestly do not know. I don't, I, I see that article and I'm horrified. I, I can't even get, begin to get my head around why a bunch of women would brag about physically abusing men. I don't think we'd see that article written in GQ or FHM about their male journalists being like,

• 23:03George?

  yeah, I went home and punched my wife right in the face. And the article's still up, like, they've had so long to like, take it down. And they haven't, it's still there. They don't, they don't seem to understand the double standard that they're sort of involved in. But I haven't really got a good enough answer for you, but I do feel like some women think that to be violent or to be a dickhead is somehow a sign of a strong man or an empowered woman. And it obviously isn't. In fact, it's the opposite.

• 23:31Chris Williamson?

  That's wild. Talk to me about the social psychology of Drake's dick pic.

• 23:38George?

  This is, yeah, this is, this is, this happened hours ago, but from what I understand is that Drake, Drake's dick has now been leaked online, not seen it, not interested in seeing it. But it has brought up an interesting double standard where there's a lot of women on Twitter right now, sort of melting over these images over a well endowed Drake, let's put it that way. And it's just everywhere, it's just being thrown around, flinging around, like everyone's just talking about it, like how great. And I'm just like, no respect for his privacy or his body. And it's difficult not to compare it to what's happening to Taylor Swift and how she had that AI generated image of her, not real at all. I haven't seen it either. And I was like, everyone's outraged over that. And they're bringing in, they're

• 24:22George?

  changing laws to stop that from happening, which is fair enough. But Drake's actual dick has been leaked and it's like quite explicit. And I imagine the people that were kicking off over Taylor Swift are now the ones sharing it and tweeting about how great it is. And it's. A developing story for sure, but a definite double standard about how we seem to respect women's privacy more when it comes to these sort of things than men's. And again, that's not to say women having their nudes leaked, celebrity women is not a massive issue, of course it is, but it's still an interesting double standard about how when it happens to a man, it's sort of a fair game, like it's open season. But yeah.

• 24:58Chris Williamson?

  I wonder how many men come out in sort of, it seems like guys lose on both sides, that women will come out in defense of women who've had their nudes leaked. And men will probably feel at least a little bit reticent about publicly talking about them, maybe in WhatsApp it'll get forwarded quite a lot, but publicly they're not going to talk about it. And the reverse seems to be true if it's a guys. I don't think, I don't know, like unless I was feeling particularly like paragon-y that day, I don't know whether I would shout up as a normal person who didn't have a platform and just be like, this is ridiculous, like all of these people, like that's just not the guy impulse to kind of step in in that way.

• 25:40Chris Williamson?

  There's something kind of a bit icky about it being a guy's nudity in any case, that guys, dudes sort of kind of lean away from a little bit.

• 25:48George?

  There is, there is a weird, unexpected sense of respect that a lot of men have for their partners especially around sex. And this is another double standard I've noticed a lot, and someone I personally associate with, is that I hear a lot of, I hear a lot about women who are sleeping with men and they talk openly and in detail about these sexual experiences, about the guy's dick, about his body. And it's just like, you know, girl banter. And then women tell me this, like, it's normal. And then like, you must talk about it with guys. And we're like, we never talk about it. Maybe we'll confirm the act has happened and that's it. We don't go into detail, we don't talk about their bodies, we don't go into sort of step by step guard of exactly what happened. And like, I've, I've been on dates of women and like we've slept together.

• 26:33George?

  And then the next day, like one of her friends comes over and like pats me on the back, like good job, you're, and I'm like, what? And then she just basically saying like, good job for, you know, great sex. And I'm just like, I'm like, that is crazy how you've already had that conversation and like no consideration of my privacy. So I think there was a very interesting fast and loose style to. Discourse around women talking about men's bodies in that context that surprisingly men don't seem to have, there's a weird sense of respect that men have for their partners' bodies and sex.

• 27:03Chris Williamson?

  And I think it's certainly the case in long term relationships.

• 27:07George?

  Yeah.

• 27:07Chris Williamson?

  I would be tempted to say that it maybe switches at least a little bit in short term relationships, but a good chunk of that is because of the incentives, because guys see a short term casual hookup as a badge of honour, whereas girls probably want to talk about it a little bit less, depending on the kind of girl that it is, depending on her psychology. But yeah, I mean, dude, if I was to say, I mean, I don't know, would girls ask another girl, oh, what's George like in bed? Like, what's your boyfriend like in bed? I have no idea. That seemed, even to me, that seems a little bit too far. But if I was to ask my, like, married or engaged or long term bro friends, oh dude, does such and such, like, does she give good head? What's that like?

• 27:50George?

  Yeah, yeah, it's.

• 27:51Chris Williamson?

  I mean, that is crossing a huge line and they're never going to tell you.

• 27:55George?

  No, I know, it's, yeah, I don't, I think a lot of men don't have those conversations. I don't think they're interested. I think that's more of what women talk about. And then again, I've never been in those conversations either.

• 28:07George?

  I don't know, but it's definitely an example of what, what can become quite toxic. You can see the remnants of like, what could become female dating strategy or what could become, are we dating the same guy? And I just think that's women as the guardians and masters of language, that makes a lot of sense. Like, they are the innovators of language. They are the, they are so much better than men at building relationships and coalitions and groups and networking. And yeah, like language especially, and like, it makes sense that, that, that has its pros and it has its cons. And this whole like gossiping relational aggression style of discourse that is mostly women is a very interesting thing that also we're not talking about, especially in bullying,

• 28:50George?

  like the bullying between girls, this is something Jonathan Haidt talks about a lot. And it's very interesting, we don't, that's never framed as toxic femininity, like gossip culture, whispering campaigns, cancel, canceling people. And I think that's a very interesting insight to what can become from a quite toxic women only groups.

• 29:09Chris Williamson?

  I had a conversation with Freya India earlier this week. While I'm, for the people who are watching on YouTube and for the people who are just listening, I'm in a slightly different location at the moment, which I've been fighting to get the internet to work for two hours. I'm still in Honduras in Roatan. So third world country, but second world internet. So we've been able to make it work.

• 29:28George?

  Made it.

• 29:30Chris Williamson?

  But I had a conversation with Freya while I was out here and she was telling me that the deft nuanced venting, intrasexual competitiveness, the use of exclusion and kind of soft cancellation of friendships and all this stuff for girls is fucking brutal. Like it's so ruthless. And I don't want to do the reversal of the common trope, which is like women harmed, men most affected, which is often like the reverse is talked about.

• 29:57George?

  Yeah.

• 29:58Chris Williamson?

  If you think about the tools that women wield emotionally, linguistically, that is a fight that many men are unarmed to be able to compete with. It's the same, you know, a woman's emotional ability and that coalitional relational aggression thing is their specific strength when it comes, especially within small groups in the same way as a man's is his physical power or a group's would be the physical threat that they're able to bestow. So if you have this sort of back and forth, if you have a group of women that

• 30:39Chris Williamson?

  are able to castigate or direct their eye and the eye of Sauron toward men or a man or whatever, that man is hopelessly outgunned in that particular arena because his ability to do the same is the same inversion as a woman's ability to fight back physically.

• 30:56George?

  Yeah. So I mean, everyone talks about how men have an advantage in women's sports in terms of trans women, trans women in women's sports and the physical advantage males have over women. And that's a very interesting conversation, but no one ever talks about how like women, for example, are a generation ahead of men in terms of innovating within language. That there's like, they're so far ahead of men in terms of the ability to speak and communicate. It's partly biological, partly socialized. That doesn't really matter. But no one really talks about how does that give them an advantage in these spaces? Like, how does that allow, give them power, the power of like soft power, for example, the power of persuasion and influence? I haven't got the numbers exactly, but I know. Everyone talks about power dynamics in terms of hard power, presidents, congressmen,

• 31:38George?

  politicians, CEOs, all men having hard power. But if you actually look at the normal day-to-day decisions men and women have, especially in relationships, like what watching for TV, what we're eating for dinner, when are we going on holiday, those are decisions made by women. And it's something like about of about 15 biggest questions in a normal person's life, about 13 of them are made by women, the female partner, and they do have more soft power. But no one ever seems to want to talk about that. And why not? It's a show of women's superiority over men in their own domain. And you're right, in that men, in many ways, have dominant in the physical realm because of our great physical strength, but women have their own dominance

• 32:19George?

  in the sort of linguistic and relational realm. And women are hurt by that, like I said, of bullying, like girls bullying girls in America, massive problem, especially when you're bringing things like social media, where girls can bully other girls 24 hours a day with anonymity. And it's leading to a massive peak, a massive rise in suicide in young girls. So this unspoken about form of aggression, relational aggression, which has been seen in girls as young as two, is not being discussed, and it's hurting women most of all.

• 32:51Chris Williamson?

  Well, an inability to see women as anything other than pure and perfect and good and gracious and angelic is it denies other women the ability to accuse the female perpetrators of meanness against them. You know, it's the same with, I've said this a million times, but so many of the movies at the moment have perfect female protagonists. They don't have to overcome anything, they never get anything wrong. The only challenge that they ever face is that the world doesn't believe in them, or that there's some man that holds a position of power who's trying to get in the way. And

• 33:33Chris Williamson?

  Fucking going back and regendering or re-sexing all of your favorite movies so that it's got some like brave new woman female lead. I mean, it's not working at the box office, but I don't think that it's an empowering message to send to women either. I think it's patronizing and I think that it makes them fragile and it makes them narcissistic. And if it doesn't make them narcissistic, it makes their friends more likely to be narcissistic. Even if you're the sort of girl who's been able to like, you know, I was raised well and I understand that I need to work hard and the world, I shouldn't expect the world to give me anything. It's like, yeah, but what's the message that's being sent to other girls who don't have that same robust background that they're coming out of? Who are the people

• 34:15Chris Williamson?

  that you're gonna have to try and be fucking friends with? They're not going to be good. They're not going to be balanced.

• 34:22George?

  No, well, yeah, there's like a plethora of really dull, two dimensional female superheroes, for example. And like, you're right, in the sense that the reason that what makes the male superheroes great is not their strength, but their weaknesses. So it's like you have Thor, who becomes an alcoholic and gains weight. You have Iron Man, who's sort of constantly living under the shadow of his dad. You have the Hulk, who's got suffering very complex mental health problems. And that's what makes them human and relatable. Otherwise, there's people flying around in capes that we don't know really who they are. But with the women, within this new generation of superheroes, they don't have any of those weaknesses. They're just 10 out of 10 in strength in every single possible way. They don't have any sort of weaknesses. There's no vulnerability there. And I feel like the writers are just afraid

• 35:07George?

  to make them vulnerable, because it will just lead to outrage. And again, you're creating a very narrow, two dimensional set of characters. It's a bit like Captain Marvel. I remember watching that film and it was like building up to the final fight scene between her and Jude Law. And he's just like, come on, let's fight. Come on, prove yourself to me. Prove yourself. And she's like, I don't need to prove myself to anyone. And then she walks off. And I'm like, that was, I was like, that was the final fight. That was like, I've been sat here waiting for that. And she walks off. And I was just like, how boring. How cliche. And I just think that's, that explains partly, in my opinion, why Marvel is falling apart. Because they're stuck in this sort of political dogma where they don't want

• 35:50George?

  to actually write human beings as characters. They just want to write these very cartoonish, infantile style of women.

• 35:57Chris Williamson?

  I think there's definitely going to be. A gap in the market, both for media and entertainment and messaging and community and all of that stuff, but also for women who are able to be more

• 36:17Chris Williamson?

  forthcoming than that and more resilient than that, because you have to think if almost everybody is being fed one type of message, if you're able to move back against that, that puts you into a very rarefied fucking cohort of a very small number of women. It's like, look, if you're able to overcome difficult things, and this is, you know, what we want, we want robust, resilient people in the world. That sounds great. We do not want people that see victimhood where there isn't on and have this narcissistic entitlement about the things that they think that they deserve. That is not the world that anybody wants to live in. Even the people who are a part of it, the only reason that they're part of it is that they're, the only reason they're complicit is because they're benefactors. And if they weren't benefactors, they wouldn't be complicit.

• 36:58George?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah, it's, it's not, but it's not just cultural, like, that's, it's in our legal system, it's in our political system, where we just constantly see women as victims only. They're not, they, they can't be violent, they can't be toxic, they can't be dangerous, they can't do anything wrong, they can't be criminals. And I feel like that's a massive disservice to the autonomy of women. That's what autonomy is. Autonomy is to do good or bad, it's their choice, that's what autonomy is. And it's amazing how people support women's autonomy, but never the autonomy to do things that they don't like, like women to be violent in a relationship. And when I say they're raised within like the legal and political system, I do mean quite literally, like in the UK, women can't even commit rape. Like, there's no possible way for women to rape a man.

• 37:41Chris Williamson?

  I saw you do a carousel about this. What, what's the word on sexual assault for women?

• 37:46George?

  So, well, it's controversial, but in the Sexual Offenses of Acts, it basically defines what rape is, and rape is basically the penetration of a penis. And if you don't have a penis, you can't commit rape, doesn't matter what you do. It isn't like if you use drugs or assault a man while he's sleeping or use a weapon, it's not rape, and it can never be rape. So whenever people present these stats saying 99% of rape This on men, what they don't tell you is that women can't perpetrate rape at all. And nothing a woman does will ever constitute as rape. So that that one percent is interesting, that one percent is women, but that's only a joint venture. That's when a woman helps a man rape another man. And that's when a woman can legally be held responsible for rape.

• 38:27Chris Williamson?

  But in the UK, in the UK, it's not possible.

• 38:31George?

  And also our academic definitions of rape are based on that, which leads to very misleading statistics of on sexual violence. And in America, it's interesting because they changed it. They had the same laws and the CDC about 10 years ago changed it where it gender neutral. Because they found out 40% of rapes were not being captured in FBI statistics. And those those are the rapes of women onto men.

• 38:52Chris Williamson?

  And it's How does that happen for the people that would say that's the there's no such thing as that? What's she doing putting her finger inside of him? What would what what does that look like?

• 39:00George?

  Well, it's it's it's classified as being forced to penetrate. So it has to be called something and it's called forced to penetrate. And it's it's captured in data, but it's always at the bottom if captured at all. Very complicated. Everyone falls back to have quite an antiquated view of sexual violence and rape where it has to use physical force. That of course does happen. I know friends that have been raped by women in their sleep whilst they're drunk and capacitated. Women would more often use weapons. And there's also coercion. So we're going back to the whole women having the power of language. And they're using that physical, that psychological, emotional pressure, making threats. Heard one story about a woman that basically told her boyfriend if she if he didn't have sex with her. She's going to call 999. And then accuse him of rape.

• 39:43George?

  And she put 99 on the phone and the third nine was about to press call. And basically forced him to have sex with her. So coercion. So rape in its sort of the horrific detail of its full picture is not it's not just about physical power. It's about much more than that. And the the advantages that men have physically are not enough to stop them happening. And it's a massive issue. And no one talks about it. Thankfully, the Americans have led the way in changing the laws to make it gender neutral. And they've revealed this massive cohort of men not being raped by women. And someone we can do something about, but that hasn't happened in the UK. A lot of petitions have tried to change the the law, but it's it's still yet to happen.

• 40:25Chris Williamson?

  What is the balance if you change the definition and if you begin to include in a different way? Your definition, how does that adjust the numbers? Because, you know, we've heard for a very long time, and even me, like, all I've ever heard is that guys sexually assault girls, like, that's it. So what, how egalitarian is the world of sexual assault?

• 40:47George?

  A lot more than people are willing to admit. So it's interesting because they changed it. They were basically capturing data and like the number of men, the number of male rape victims is very low. It was like less than about seven percent, eight percent. And then next year it was like thirty six percent, thirty seven percent. And then a few researchers, Laura Stempel, for example, excellent researcher. She was like, why has it suddenly gone from seven percent to thirty six, thirty seven percent? And she looked into it and she realized it's because the definition of rape had been changed and they'd introduced the men that are raped by women. So like I said, forty percent of rapes were not being captured by FBI statistics because they were using a gendered definition of rape.

• 41:26George?

  And yeah, we don't know, in the UK, we just don't know, but we do not know how many men.

• 41:29Chris Williamson?

  Especially if you're talking about, you know, rape crisis centers or justice for victims and things like that, you know, I've seen, I've seen those graphs where it says, this is how many sexual assaults occur and of those, this is how many are reported and of those, this is how many are investigated and of those, this is how many are prosecuted and of those, this is how many are convicted. And it's basically like, don't get it wrong.

• 41:53Chris Williamson?

  It might as well be that male to female rape is legal with how rare the offense to conviction ratio is. Now, there's a whole bunch of ways that you can have false allegations and all the rest of the things, but this is Jimmy Carr's point. Jimmy Carr taught me this and he was like, it's fucking atrocious. But if you are, again, the same thing, if feminists are for equality, they should be campaigning as much for the things that boys and men don't have as they do for the things that girls and women don't have. And the same thing true here, like, if you're saying that, you know, one third of victims are guys in one form or another, and we already know about the male proclivity to not ask

• 42:35Chris Williamson?

  for help, to not admit medical problems, to not admit if they've been domestically abused by their significant other, because it seems even more, on top of all of the other things and the trauma and everything else, it's emasculating and they're, they're going to be scared that they're going to be seen as. Weak or a pussy, you know, there's all of the problems that you have for women get pivoted in different ways for men too. But you know, there's not, I mean, dude, you're big on trying to be early on these trends and advocating for the problems of men and boys. If you want this as a men can be sexually assaulted to, dot, dot, dot by women, dot, dot, dot. And yes, it's a big problem. You are going to be waiting. I mean, that is a, that is, that is a cruise ship sized culture.

• 43:20George?

  Yeah.

• 43:21Chris Williamson?

  Because there's still, there's still this sort of pervasive idea that we haven't had the reckoning around male to female sexual assault fully yet. So going like, oh, I have another, what about this idea? That is going to take, it's going to take a very long time.

• 43:36George?

  I mean, you can't deny the fact that violence against women, sexual violence against women is a horrific epidemic problem. I have people very close to me that have just have experienced all these things and it is brutal. I really, really do think I understand that problem and I'm no way trying to diminish it. I'm always trying to add to the conversation, always trying to broaden perspectives and say, yes, and not, not either or. It's one part of a big problem. And again, like if refusing to talk about violent women does hurt women too. The most violent relationships are lesbian relationships, the least violent are gay relationships. It makes no sense in terms of like the fewer the men, the least

• 44:17George?

  violent the relationship becomes. And if you don't talk about violence, women, then you're only going to hurt lesbian women too.

• 44:24Chris Williamson?

  Is that actually true? Because I'd seen, I'd seen a rebuttal to the, the most violent relationships are the ones that don't have any men in it's lesbians that commit the most. And then I saw a rebuttal that was like, this is midwitt thinking, the data doesn't back this up at all. So I stopped citing that. I stopped talking about that on the show, maybe, not that it's a common, I wasn't like citing it all the time, but I stopped believing it about six months ago. What's, what's the truth about domestic violence?

• 44:48George?

  It's a toss up between bisexual women and lesbian women. They're the top two. It goes between the two. And it is this fair criticism. We could say that women are more likely to report abuse than men are. So if there's two women more likely to report than two men, and because the data is based on reports.

• 45:05Chris Williamson?

  It could be reporting issues.

• 45:06George?

  And I'm like, yeah, these are really fair criticisms to make at that point. But my point is that our view of domestic violence is wrong in three ways. And that is first of all, bilateral abuse, as we talked about. Like I said, half of domestic abuse is bilateral. Both partners are doing it. The second is there's a multiplicity of causes of domestic violence, not just male power and control. That's one cause. And that is also reflected by women too. And the third is it's not a gendered issue. Like, men and women both do it. We can nitpick over lesbian women versus gay men, and I'm sure we'll never come to any sort of conclusion. But the point is, it's not gendered, and women can be violent,

• 45:48George?

  just as violent as men. And another thing I keep seeing, and this is what Sadiq Khan did in London, who I'm losing faith in, and I did actually file a complaint. He was talking about violence against women, and he said, although men can experience violence, this is mostly from other men. And I had the data, and 1% of domestic violence against men is by other men.

• 46:11Chris Williamson?

  Was he referring to domestic violence? Because it sounds to me, from that quote, like he was just talking about violence generally. And I would guess that if you take violent into...

• 46:20George?

  No, yeah. But still, but I still, even though you're right, in terms of violence more broadly, like terms of street violence, stranger violence, is what you'd call it, that is men doing it to other men. And I'm like, so what? Like, that is the exact same bigoted rhetoric that diminished black and black crime for ages, because it's black people doing it to other black people, therefore it doesn't matter. And I'm just like, okay, well, then let's apply that to other crimes, like FGM, which we all hate. That's mostly done by elder women. So what, is it by other women? Are we going to say that too? And it's just like, if you are more interested in pointing out the genitals of the assailant, then I would say you don't really give a shit about violence against women or men. You're just interested in like a gender war. And just because a violence is by men, doesn't

• 47:05George?

  mean it hurts any less or matters any less, and doesn't mean we cannot help that man. And you're right, but in terms of what I was talking about, I've talked specifically about domestic violence and everyone seems to think it's men doing to the men, which does happen, but it's a very, very small part of the pie.

• 47:20Chris Williamson?

  Okay, so what's this, what else is missing from the relational aggression standpoint? What's missing around the discussion to do with domestic violence?

• 47:31George?

  I think male suicides as a result, suicides in general, as a result of domestic violence needs to be talked about big time. Like that is like the, the constant bombardment and pressure of psychological abuse by both men and women is horrific and not discussed. Again, everyone talks about domestic homicide, which is a partner killing the other partner. And it's mostly talked about, you know, pretty much exclusively talked about as in, as men doing to women. And it is mostly men doing to women, about 77% of domestic homicides are men killing women. That doesn't mean we can't talk about the final quarter, but it is mostly women, but no one talks about suicides that are caused by domestic violence, which are overwhelmingly male. And if you actually bring in suicides as a result of abuse, there

• 48:14George?

  are more male deaths as a result of domestic violence than female. And that, again, a massive, massive half the pie chart that's just ignored because it's unpopular. And again,

• 48:26Chris Williamson?

  So what is that? A guy is in a relationship with a woman and the pressure of that interpersonal sort of toxicity and stuff causes him to take his online?

• 48:37George?

  And yeah, and more so abuse by proxy, using children, taking children away, using the court system to destroy a man's life. Like there were so many amazing, incredibly smart things that women are doing to men and men doing to women. But like parental alienation, for example, is when one parent turns the child against the other parent. So you're basically telling your child that your dad's deadbeat or your mum's a, you know, a piece of shit. And like over time, you basically turn the child against the parent. So you drop the child off and you come and pick the child up a week later and it hates you and you don't know why. And it's because the other partner's been turning against you. That's parental alienation. No one talks about that. And that is abuse and that can and does lead to suicides. And we need to talk about domestic violence in, in this

• 49:22George?

  detail. We need to have a much higher resolution discussion around domestic violence that isn't just this trope of male violence, because that is just a small, small wedge of the problem.

• 49:33Chris Williamson?

  I suppose the the issue you have around this conversation is the impacts of male domestic violence are very plain and present, right? You know, guys are able to enact more damage. That's stronger. Therefore, it looks significantly more bad on a evidence photograph reel, the gallery of problems, you know, the list of things that somebody's been admitted to hospital for. Dude, I watched um, I watched this documentary about, I think he was called The Machine or The Juggernaut or something. He was a UFC, he was briefly in the UFC and then got let out, got released and was a MMA guy and he was in a relationship with this

• 50:17Chris Williamson?

  adult actress. And they'd been broken up for quite a while. He came around and found her in bed. This is like a good while after they'd split up. He came around and found her in bed with another man. And this dude's, you know, he's trained, he's beyond hard and psychopathic and and masochistic and narcissistic. He was trained. And he, you know, got on top of this guy and like just fucking destroyed him. Meanwhile, the girl was trying to, I think she tried to call 999 or she tried to do something like that. And he made the man promise that he was never going to touch, never going to be around the woman again. And the guy obviously just said like, whatever, like anything. Yeah.

• 51:00Chris Williamson?

  Got got dressed and left because he presumed that his ire had been directed just at the guy. And then this UFC fighter, it was all over the news a few years ago, this UFC fighter, MMA guy, just like brutalized this girl. And it was awful. Like, it was really difficult to watch. And her mother gives this testimony. The only way, the only reason that she managed to escape, I think he got a knife, he got a knife and started hurting her with the knife and stuff. And she ran away by like bloody feet sprinting down the street, like something out of a horror movie. And the neighbor found her and called the police and did whatever. And the most chilling thing, there's a really interesting breakdown of it on some like

• 51:44Chris Williamson?

  criminal psychology YouTube channel people can go and watch. And the most interesting thing is when the mother gives her.

• 51:52Chris Williamson?

  Testimony about what she'd seen and about, you know, character witness and all the rest of it for both the daughter and the ex-partner. And this luck that she gives the guy from the stand is terrifying. Like so just the degree, you know, mother's love, mother to daughter is the tightest genetic bond that you're going to have of any two people except for twins. And yeah, dude, it's ruthless. But yeah, you know, you have that, but it's so, the photos of her, the face is just ballooned up and there's cuts everywhere and all the rest of it. But the guy that takes his own life because the female partner has detached him from

• 52:33Chris Williamson?

  his friends or has been using his kids as a cudgel or has been derogating the relationship between his children and him or whatever, whatever. And, you know, I understand that this, it's probably really uncomfortable for both guys and girls to hear, like, you know, seeing the sour side of what your sex can do, seeing your gender at its worst is not very pretty. But if you deny the fact that those things exist, you're not, it's not helping anybody.

• 53:04George?

  You're not breaking the cycle of violence. Like, that's what's important. It's not about pointing fingers, it's about breaking the cycle of violence because violence is reciprocal and generational and it's passed down through families from childhood. And I was like, unless you're going to look at both sides of the equation, you'll never solve it. And we need to break the cycle of violence to which women contribute. I have a similar, I read a similar story, but inverted, the 20 told, which is heartbreaking. And I hope, I hope it sounds like there was some sort of justice. But here's a story where there was no justice, and this was only a few weeks ago. A woman stabbed her boyfriend to death. I think she stabbed him 108 times and he died. And do you know what sentence she got?

• 53:48George?

  She was let out, she got let out on bail. No, no, she got a hundred hours of community service. That's it. Why? Because apparently she was in some cannabis infused stupor and she was in control of her, what she's doing. And I don't think that's quite how cannabis works. And she was in some sort of cannabis rage. And that's what I mean, like we're depriving women of autonomy of their own decisions and their own actions. And like she killed her husband who killed her partner and she did a hundred hours of community service. That's less than one hour per stab. And because, because. Oh, my God. Because, because, and like, we just completely absolved her autonomy of that.

• 54:31George?

  And like, if, if it's true that she did it through a psychiatric break, then she should be in some sort of, like, getting help somewhere. She shouldn't be out doing community service, like, she's unsafe one way or another. And it's, I don't think you'd have that if it was the other way around. If a man stabbed his wife or girlfriend to death that many times, I don't think he would get a hundred hours of community service and a slap on the wrist and let out. And he shouldn't be. And, um, we, again, we by no means talk about violence against women in enough detail. And every, every crime and death is heartbreaking and deserving of attention. But we just need to talk about when it happens to men, which we don't. Do you think that men have reproductive rights?

• 55:16George?

  Not in the context of the way we discuss, like, pro-choice. Like, I'm pro-choice. I believe a woman should have the choice of what she does of her body, if or when she has a child. I feel like not only does she benefit from that, but wider society benefits in the sense that we're not forcing women to have children they don't want. And if you look at the data, unwantedness causes a huge amount of issues later in life. A child born to unwanted mum, for example, is more likely to be a criminal.

• 55:42George?

  I like to apply that to men too, who don't have the same choice. So like after conception, a man's choice to be a father is, is gone. He's sort of beholden to the woman's wishes, which, which is quite right. He should not be able to choose if she keeps or has an abortion, in my opinion. But he's. Coming along for the ride, whether he likes it or not, he has no choice. His choice was to wear a condom or not. And whatever reason, maybe he did, if she becomes pregnant, there's no choice left. She can, you know, have a morning after pill. She can have an abortion, she can, she has safe haven laws, which basically mean that up to three weeks after birth, a woman can give a baby to a police station or fire station. And they'll take it, no questions asked, no name, no nothing. And I was like, a man does not have that choice. And he's basically forced to finance a decision he has no choice in. And

• 56:26George?

  this is something that's called a paper abortion, or more recently called voluntary parental surrender, which is a hypothetical right, which doesn't exist, for a man to forfeit all privileges and responsibility to a child he doesn't want, as long as A, he tells the mum to be early in the pregnancy, so she can make an informed choice. B, he contributes to the medical fees of childbirth.

• 56:50George?

  It doesn't exist. A lot of pro-choice feminists support it, like Karen DeCrow, and she's saying, like, an autonomous woman making a unilateral decision should not expect a man to finance that choice. And I get it, it's a very controversial thing. People think it gives men the ability to be sort of deadbeats and step out of childhood. And there are some fair criticisms. I don't necessarily think I support or unsupport it. I want to have that discussion. I want to know what might these rights look like for men? Can we give men more choice? And is forcing men to be dads to children they don't want, going to have the exact same problem as the same one to women? Where it was causing like a generation of unwanted, more likely to be criminal children. And we all know the links between fatherlessness and crime, juvenile crime in boys.

• 57:36George?

  And I want to know, will, is giving choice to men and fathers going to help them make that choice to become, to be a committed parent? As I feel like. A parent that's chosen to be one is more likely to raise a child that is happy and healthy. And that's why I'm pro-choice for both men and women. Yeah.

• 57:57Chris Williamson?

  What do you say to the people who would claim if you didn't want to be a father, you shouldn't have had sex?

• 58:06George?

  I mean, there's a feminist slogan that says consenting to sex is not consenting to parenthood. And I agree. And that applies to men and women. Like, you'll see that sign on placards outside in protests held by feminists consenting to sex is not consenting to parenthood. Some people disagree. That's why that's my personal belief. And I like to extend that. I feel like, I think like, one in 10 men in America have been forced or had a partner try to trick them into getting pregnant when they didn't want to. One in 10. So that's like the classic thing of like, oh, I'm on a pill. Oh, no, I'm not. Baby trapping, I suppose you'd call it that. And I'm like, well, they should have a choice. There are men who have been raped that have been legally compelled to pay child support. They didn't have a choice either. And boys, they're being boys that have been

• 58:49George?

  raped by babysitters, teachers, and they grow up like four or five years later. And then they're served court documents saying you owe this much money in child support. And I'm like, they didn't have a choice either. So again, it's very complicated. And I just don't think this meme of, well, you shouldn't have had sex is particularly not on my modern perspective, in my opinion. And it certainly doesn't apply to women, unless you're, of course, pro-life.

• 59:12Chris Williamson?

  I suppose this tumbles down from reproductive rights into custody rights as well. I haven't actually seen you write much about this, although you post a lot on your Instagram. So I very well may have missed it. What's the TLDR of fatherhood custody rights?

• 59:33George?

  Um, in America, probably best to talk about it. So what a lot of people want is called a presumption of joint child custody. I think I got that right. And what that means is that the father and mother who are fighting for custody enter court on a level playing field. It's a presumption that we're going to have a shared child custody here. Currently, that doesn't exist. That only exists in two states. I think one of them is Kansas. Florida was going to bring it in, but it got thrown out because of so much campaigning against it by ironically, the National Organisation for Women, which is the biggest feminist group in America. They were the ones that are campaigning against equality, which is just doesn't make any sense. So presumption of shared custody basically allows both parents to go in level playing field and they basically build their case from there. They say, well, I I earn this much, I have this much free

• 1:00:18George?

  time. And then obviously, people start making accusations of abuse and it becomes very messy in family court. But like I said, that presumption of shared child custody only exists in maybe two, perhaps three states. It's increasing, but not all of them. And in Amer- in England, the UK, it's even worse. Like in the UK, and if you're not married, you are screwed. Like, if you're not married or named on the birth certificate as a father, you have no rights to that child.

• 1:00:43Chris Williamson?

  Oh, yeah. You um, you said this about, this was your justification for why men should get married? Or this is part of your justification for why men should get married?

• 1:00:52George?

  I mean, I don't know if I made that argument, but if you want to keep, if you want to have equal rights to your child, you should be married. Yeah. And I don't think that's, I may imagine a woman not having rights to something unless she was married to a man. That is, that is ultimate, that is like the ultimate patriarchy definition. Like, you have to be married if you want equal rights. That's exactly how it exists in the UK for fathers. You have to be married or named on the birth certificate. And in both instances, the mother can just be like, no, I'm not going to marry you. I'm not going to name you. And then she has all, she has full control of that child's life. You have none. And she'll have full rights, no matter what. She doesn't have to be married. She can be single, divorced, separated, or married, doesn't matter. She has full rights to the child. Not in the UK.

• 1:01:35George?

  And not for men. And it's not much better in America. But if you want to see serious systemic sexism, then just go and spend a few hours outside a family court and talk to some of the fathers coming out. And you'll hear some stories that will change your mind, I think. Yeah.

• 1:01:54Chris Williamson?

  How right do you think Billie Eilish was when she spoke about men not facing criticism for their bodies because women are nice?

• 1:02:01George?

  Well, she's just, I like Billie Eilish, I like her music, but that was so stupid. Like, some celebrities should just stick to what they're good at, which is singing, and leave the politics to grownups. Basically, what she said was, "Men don't experience criticism for their bodies because women are nice." And I'm like, "What?" Like, it doesn't make any sense. Men get huge amount of criticism for their bodies, like so much, including from women. Like, men, in some data I've seen, have, show more signs of body dysmorphic disorder than women now, they're more self-conscious about their body. And not in the same way, that's what's interesting, not so much weight, but height, hairlines, facial hair, penis size, like different things that they're self-conscious about. And for Billie Eilish to say that is so stupid.

• 1:02:45George?

  And also in the context of the fact that she has herself shamed men's bodies. She talks horribly about ugly men and how entitled they are, and just horrible, horrible stuff. And it's interesting, because it brings into, like, some of the horrible operations and batshit crazy procedures that men are willing to undergo to alleviate these issues. Like, we're talking about leg-breaking surgery, which is where a man pays thousands of pounds, and they'll surgically break his femurs, they'll insert titanium rods, and over the course of months, the titanium rods will extend about six inches, and he gains about six inches in height. Excruciatingly painful, very dangerous and expensive.

• 1:03:28George?

  And it's becoming more and more popular for sort of non-medical reasons, for men doing it for aesthetic reasons. And then you have like these horrible penis implants, with pumps and tablets and like, the fact that someone could think that men don't face criticism for their bodies is just, reveals a breathtaking sense of ignorance. And for someone like Billie Eilish, who has learnt a lot about being shamed and being objectified for her body, like, she should know better. And I just think she's ignorant, she's just wrong, just wrong academically.

• 1:03:59Chris Williamson?

  I learnt from you that it's not just leg-breaking surgeries, but there's penis surgeries now.

• 1:04:05George?

  Yeah, there's, I think it's called a femina or something, basically it's like a silicon...

• 1:04:13George?

  Spring roll that you just have inserted into your penis. And unlike other cosmetic surgeries like boobs and bum implants, which are dangerous too. Penis is not the same because it obviously grows and shrinks and changes shape throughout the day. And unlike your boobs, they say more or less same size. So it doesn't, just doesn't work. It's extremely dangerous and there's very little like oversight over these sort of surgeries that men are undergoing. And if you talk, if you listen to the reason why men are getting them, they're not, they don't need them. They have perfectly functional, well sized penises. But a lot of the reasons are, I felt like I wasn't satisfying her or, you know, I wanted to match up with her ex boyfriend.

• 1:04:53George?

  And it speaks to a very deep, much deeper, more candid insight into men's insecurities. And they're right across the board and we should be talking about them too, and we're not.

• 1:05:06Chris Williamson?

  Yeah, Scott Griffiths from Australia was on the show and he was talking about how male body dysmorphia is on track to overtake female body dysmorphia. I think that the, the future of the issues between the sexes is going to be mental health for women and a lack of role models for them and body image for men and their insecurity. I think that we're going to see a crisis of femininity, but a male body dysmorphia epidemic. I think that that may be where 10 years' time, five years' time, I think that may be where we end up.

• 1:05:42George?

  I think the, I mean, if I want to put my piece of, piece of bet cap on, I think the crisis of femininity is going to be when they finally reach the end of the road of being, you know, Fortune 500 CEO and finally realise that is not the key to happiness. Like it's not like.

• 1:05:58Chris Williamson?

  Dude, I got to, I got to tell you about this. It's Will Smith in his biography, written by Mark Manson, says.

• 1:06:08Chris Williamson?

  When I was broke and miserable, I had hope because I could become rich and it would make me happy. But when I was rich and miserable, I was despondent because I had nowhere else to go.

• 1:06:17George?

  Hmm. Yeah, like I I spent the first 10 years of my adult life building a fair amount of success and it didn't make me happy. My dad did the same, spent his whole career doing it. I don't think it made him happy. It made him very lonely and isolated and and me as well. And if you just look at fundamental sense of meaning, like if they asked men and women, where do you find happiness in life? And women have far more sources of happiness than than men. They have like friends and family and hobbies, interests and work. And but men just have work, work and money. That's that's where they find happiness. And I feel like too many women are trying to replicate that idea of if you're successful, you will be happy. And I'm I promise you, men have bought a ticket to that raffle many, many

• 1:07:01George?

  years ago. And it's it's a many feathered bird. It is not quite as simple as it seems. It may it probably will not make you happy. And I feel like women in many ways have the winning ticket ready. They have amazing networks of friends. They have a really strong connection with the family. They are entering the workplace. And I don't think they should trade that in to follow men down the road. That has led to so much misery for men later in life. And I that's why I think the crisis of femininity might be in 10 years, but that realisation hits. And but it's surrounded by a bunch of miserable boss bitch CEOs.

• 1:07:34Chris Williamson?

  According to the biggest study of its kind, men are more likely to face hiring discrimination than women now.

• 1:07:42George?

  Yeah, I mean, you're really racking up the controversial claims like this is yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Basically, biggest study ever done into hiring bias. I think it was over 40 years, maybe 18 studies, hundreds of thousands of applicants studied. And what they do is they basically look at female and male applicants for jobs in female and male dominated industries. So for women, it's like teaching, healthcare, psychology, schooling. And for men, it's, you know, engineering, science, physics and stuff like that. And they basically manipulate the CVs of equally qualified men and women and they measure sort of callback rates. And they found that the bias against women in male dominated industries has disappeared.

• 1:08:22George?

  And in some cases reversed slightly, but the bias that men experience in female dominated industries remains consistent. So that was the first set of findings. Second set of findings is probably even more important. And is our perspectives of hiring bias is completely wrong. We we just totally misinterpret it. So they asked sort of the average American member of public and academics. What do you think the bias is going to be? And they were just way out, way out, like three or four times out. And again, we need to reset our perspective of hiring bias. And it's interesting because they had the exact same conclusion in Australia because they were trying to get more women into governmental positions. So they decided to hire blind.

• 1:09:03George?

  They decided to take gender off CVs and just hire based on merit, which I'm like, that's great. But what they found is they ended up hiring more men, so more men based on merit. And then it was such an unpopular thing that they decided to scrap it. So then they went back to put names on CVs. And then they were like, well, this is the kind of discrimination we like. We're going to discriminate and get more women into positions of power. So yes. Biggest study ever done into hiring bias has found that men are the ones being discriminated against. Of course, that's changed over time. Twenty years ago, it wasn't the case, but now it is. And I don't know why we cannot keep like our finger on the pulse of sexism and constantly shape like reform our opinion, reform our opinion, because that is a sign of progress. We should be happy about how we've eliminated bias against women

• 1:09:48George?

  in male industries and give ourselves a pat on the back. And now do the same for men trying to get into nursing or healthcare or teaching. And also like men like just being dads in playgrounds for children and stuff. And those are, that's like the old girls' club, I think. I mean, I know so many fathers who are looked at as paedophiles or predators, babysitters. When they're waiting for their child at the playground, I saw, I read one story about a guy got pepper sprayed for taking a photo of his own kid. And I'm like, we need to, we need to do a lot more to bring men into those spaces. And then I guess you have to further down the chain, you have like, there just aren't baby changing tables in men's changing rooms. So then men have to either go into women's changing rooms or change a baby somewhere else. And it's like,

• 1:10:33Chris Williamson?

  Wow.

• 1:10:34George?

  It's a two way street.

• 1:10:35Chris Williamson?

  Well, I think not the baby changing thing, that's insane. I didn't even know about that. And it makes complete sense. Yeah, sometimes it's the disabled changes, but I guess I have seen, I don't think I've ever seen it in the men's.

• 1:10:49George?

  No, and it's annoying because this happens alongside a separate conversation where we're constantly demanding fathers to take equal responsibility for childcare. And I'm like, well, how about equal respect first? And how about equal rights? Like, that's how it works. Like, if you want equal responsibility, you need to give equal rights. That's how it works. And no one is doing that. Everyone just stands more fathers whilst constantly humiliating them. Yeah.

• 1:11:13Chris Williamson?

  I suppose the interesting element of the guy getting pepper sprayed at the playground because he was taking a photo of his own kid is that that is almost surely a product of what the culture and the memes have sort of pushed forward. And quite rightly, stranger danger, all of that's, you know, like, do not get into a car with somebody that you do not know. I remember the hedgehog from the Green Cross Code. You remember that guy?

• 1:11:45George?

  Yeah, no, I have not thought about Hedgehog in many years, but thanks for bringing it right back. I mean, that's a great campaign, the fact that I'm like, oh yeah, the hedgehog.

• 1:11:52Chris Williamson?

  The Americans won't know what we're talking about. Maybe they had their own. They would have had a very patriotic hedgehog if it was 20 years ago.

• 1:11:57George?

  No one talks about women that way. Like, if anything, when women who spend more time with children and mothers are the number one abuser of children, which is also unpopular, but albeit true. No one talks about women that same way. There's so many headlines of like teachers, female teachers that are basically raping boys. And it's like, saucy teacher has fleeing with 14 year old. I'm like, she raped him? Like, stop this lucky boy phenomenon of like, a boy's lucky dad sexes teacher. I'm like, what? That's, she's a paedophile and he's a victim of rape. And we don't have that same perspective whilst, whilst a man taking a photo of his own child pepper sprayed. He has another one. And I saw another one. It was like a man waving at a child.

• 1:12:40George?

  And the police got involved and the police went and found the man, investigated because they thought he was a paedophile. Turns out he was just waving the child across the road. He was like, yep, you can cross. And they were like, paedophile. And there's a whole police investigation. And it's just, it's, it's gone too far. Like, there was, part of it is being mindful of your safety. And we should all be mindful of our safety. But when it becomes this hysterical fear mongering of men that stokes a cultural fear, it's gone way too far. When men are getting pepper sprayed like that, or being investigated by police for waving a child across the road, like, we can all agree that is too much, too much vilification, too much hysteria. This cultural panic has just gone way too far.

• 1:13:23Chris Williamson?

  Well, I suppose the, the reason for this is, there are still reports and stories of men misbehaving in ways that are awful and newsworthy. And the solution to that is, okay, well, let's be, let's just continue. It's like, there's one solution to it. And the only solution is vigilance. And you just have one dial, and you just continue to turn up vigilance, more and more and more. Let's just continue to scrutinize and be vigilant and be aware and make sure and so on and so forth. And that's it. That's the only button that there is to press. And the issue is that, I don't think that necessarily gets rid of the problem.

• 1:14:07George?

  No. I think it makes people more afraid, in many ways. This of all we hear are these stories of like vigilance and fear and, you know, horrible crimes, men behaving badly, although I'd say that's understatement. Like, that's just gonna create more fear. That's just gonna

• 1:14:25Chris Williamson?

  But what do you do? You can't not report on it.

• 1:14:27George?

  Well, I mean, yeah, a man goes to work, has a sandwich, comes home and goes to bed. That is not interesting news, is it? But a man who assaults a woman, that is headline news all over the country. And like, I'm not saying we shouldn't report it, but we should be, we should understand that we're, we're seeing a very small minority of men that are being hyper sort of amplified through social media and the news. We're getting a warped perspective of what the world is really like. And we really, really are. Like, everyone talks about not all men. And I'm like, that not all men is a really important rebuke that we should be using, because it is not all men. If you actually look at the data, 0.2% of Americans are arrested for a violent crime each year, 0.2%.

• 1:15:11George?

  Not all men, a tiny, tiny percentage of one, tiny point of one percent are arrested violent crime. And like one percent of people are commit like sixty percent of crime, sixty percent of crimes by one percent of people. And it's not all men doing it. It's just not, neither are all men billionaires. Like, that's what I'm sick and tired of. Who has the most billionaires being used as a metric for gender equality, like that has any sort of meaning to normal people? Like, the chance of a man being a billionaire is like naught point naught, naught, naught, naught, naught, four percent. And the chance of a woman being a billionaire is like naught point naught, naught, naught, naught, naught, five percent. And I was like, yeah, one of them is bigger, but they're both fucking small. It's like you're comparing two grains of sand. Like, yeah, that's bigger, but the tiny, like, you're not going to be a billionaire, whether you're a man or a woman.

• 1:15:56George?

  Sorry to break it to you. Meanwhile, measures of equality such as education, health outcomes, life expectancy, which are applicable to everybody, are not, not included at all. We're constantly talking about murders, billionaires, and all these things, violent crime, like, this is like very, very rare instances. And meanwhile, men who die younger in every single country in the world, and boys who are behind every stage of education in every single Western country, not talked about. And I'm like, the ability to decide how we measure equality is a privilege in its own right. And what the metrics we're using are just not, not inclusive enough. And they're just giving a very warped perspective of society.

• 1:16:37Chris Williamson?

  What was that thing you were, you were teaching me about, like, the minimization of male suffering and kind of the pedestalization of female victimhood or something? The Sarah, was it the Sarah Everard case was an example of that?

• 1:16:49George?

  Yeah. Well, yeah, I mean, we're talking about gamma bias again, which is where we highlight certain elements of maleness. So we highlight perpetration in that sense of men, men being violent, no, knife man, gun man, con man, henchman. You know, it's very much part of it, of the naming. So Sarah Everard was killed by Wayne Cousins, who was Human piece of filth is a police officer who basically killed her in London a few years ago. And again, that sparked a huge outcry, understandably so, of violence against women. And horrific crime was like a catalyst of that chain and anger, so much anger. And

• 1:17:32George?

  it went too far, in my opinion, it became too political. Even Sarah's own friends were saying, Sarah didn't hate men. Like, this is, you stop, you're basically hijacking our grief and her death for your own political gain. And all we heard is male violence, male violence, male violence. This following week, also in London, a man dived into the Thames to save a woman who tried to kill herself. So she jumped in, he had no idea who she was, he jumped straight in after her, and he died. He gave his life trying to save a woman he never met. And I'm like, we never talked about male heroism, or male sacrifice, or male bravery. And that's what I mean, that's why it's gamma bias, because as we highlight perpetration, we minimize the celebration of men and the victimhood of men. And again,

• 1:18:15George?

  a very warped perspective of society that is systematically negative, especially towards men. And we need to recognize that the vast majority of women and men are good people and nothing like brain cousins. And until we do, this gender divide is going to get bigger and bigger, I think.

• 1:18:33Chris Williamson?

  Does the world really judge women more harshly for their sexual history?

• 1:18:37George?

  No, I mean, not according to data, no. That's not to say women aren't judged for their sexual history. It just, the argument is that they're not judged more harshly than men. I mean, I think in long term relationships, looking for a partner, they're judged equally, equally well, or equally negatively, depending on who you are. When it comes to short term relationships, there is a double standard, but against men. So men are treated more harshly, judged more harshly for their sort of sexual history. So there's a lot of data telling me, telling us that, lots and lots and lots. I put up a study of 2,000 Norwegian men. Alongside four further studies all around the world and people became infatuated with the idea that it was Norwegian men and they're like, this is a very small selective study.

• 1:19:20George?

  And I was like, yeah, that's why I did four more studies and here's several more. Like, it's a well-established in the literature that this double standard of shaming women is folklore. It's not in the data and we treat men and women the same. And if anything, we treat men more harshly than women in that case. And yeah, it's like, that's just Instagram science, really. Like a bunch of armchair experts just making hypotheses and just drawing their own conclusions off based off anecdotal evidence, which certainly exists, but it's not what's seen in the data. And not at all, no.

• 1:20:00Chris Williamson?

  Well, we had a conversation last time, for the people that missed it, they should go back and listen to that, because it's really great. You're a guy who's ardently from the left, that's your political standpoint, but you're also very pro-men, which is a relatively unique position, I think, at least to hold publicly. And we had a discussion about what the problems were, what was wrong with the advice that the left were giving to men. We know that they treat men like defective women for the most part, or they just minimize their suffering or forget about them entirely. What do you think is wrong with the advice that the right gives to men?

• 1:20:36George?

  I mean, often it's the inverse of the problems that the left have, where like, the left think gender's complete social construct, whereas the right often think it's biological and that socialization has no impact on gender at all. Personally, I think it's a bit of both. And the same, like, people think masculinity is the problem on the left, people on the right think it's the solution. One of my big gripes of the right perspective of men's issues and masculinity and male suicide crisis and men's mental health is that they think the solution is to reinforce the antiquated models of manliness to help men becoming the breadwinner again and to find purpose and recapture their manhood. And basically holding men to a very old archetype of masculinity, i.e. the sole breadwinner

• 1:21:20George?

  for the family, you know, coming home in a 1960s household, two and a half children and a lovely wife. And that does not exist anymore. That does not exist. Women have entered the workplace, quite rightly so, and men can no longer take that position. It just doesn't exist. And we can't all be Andrew Tate sort of Bhagati breadwinners. It's just not possible. So, like I said, we need to help men. Find more more strands of purposeness, like more sense of meaning in their life. Because simultaneously, I do understand where the right is coming from. And I do think men get a lot of benefit mentally from being productive and being powerful and having a sense of purpose. But the problem is, we need to find that purpose and meaning outside of these very narrow,

• 1:22:01George?

  you know, breadwinner job, being rich sort of archetypes that are just increasingly unable to achieve. That's just, I mean, yeah, I mean, don't get me started, but I do think the right have done better, but they are no means perfect. Like, sometimes they become, they get so close to talking about men's issues, but in a different format. Like, I've been very interested in following the whole, like, trans-affirming surgery on minors and how the right are hate it. And I'm apprehensive too, but I have no idea why circumcision has never been brought into discussion of surgeries, unelected, non-consenting surgeries of minors, medically unnecessary surgeries.

• 1:22:42George?

  I'm like, surely they are both surgeries on minors for ideological reasons.

• 1:22:47Chris Williamson?

  Well, that's a question. Why, why hasn't there been a reckoning around circumcision yet? Especially given how much of a hot topic female genital mutilation is.

• 1:22:57George?

  Ah, yeah, I do not know. I do not, it blows my mind how people think that the right, people on the right, right-wing pundits especially, don't seem to mind ideological altering of babies' genitals. Um, and there is, there are almost no medical benefits for circumcision. Um, it's almost always done for cultural, aesthetic, religious reasons. And it is done, uh, millions, millions and millions and millions, like 60% of baby boys, 80% of men in general in America, we're talking billions actually, if you're looking worldwide, it is such a massive problem. And it's probably people listening to this right now that feel, have been circumcised, they feel very defensive.

• 1:23:38George?

  And it always comes up, always comes out of the woodwork in the post about it. There's always people in the comments that are pissed off at me. And I think that's the problem. The problem is it's so widespread, so normalized.

• 1:23:48Chris Williamson?

  What are people pissed off about?

• 1:23:51George?

  They think that I'm, they think that they're being shamed. They think that they've been used as political porn. They like their dicks the way they are, but they don't, they don't know any differently a lot of the time. And they don't, I don't mean they quite understand that when you circumcise a baby, you're removing more than half of the nerve endings of the penis and the most sensitive part of the penis. And it's almost always not needed. It leads to like significant problems later in life, like erectile dysfunction. It can be traumatizing. Babies die from like infections and blood clots. Over a hundred babies die every year in America, I think, from circumcision.

• 1:24:26George?

  And it's just totally not necessary. It's needed in a very small number of cases, but nowhere near the size at which it's been done. And again, it's double standard. People don't like comparing it to FGM. And FGM is a very complicated issue in its own right, but there are certain types of FGM, specifically type one A, that are comparable to circumcision. Cause they're basically removing the same biological tissue. So the clitoral hood or the prepuce is being removed in FGM type one A, digging into the nitty gritty. And that's the same as the male foreskin, the same biological tissue. One's illegal, one's perfectly acceptable. And I do not understand the hypocrisy there. I do not understand the double standards.

• 1:25:07George?

  And I don't understand why circumcision isn't talked about within the context of trans affirming surgery. It's the same thing.

• 1:25:15Chris Williamson?

  Yeah, there is an awful lot of attention on the right around trans affirming surgery and absolutely zero about circumcision.

• 1:25:24George?

  No, nothing, nothing. And it's like, it doesn't matter. Like this thing is about 14 national health organizations, mostly in Europe, that have come out against circumcision now, saying it's an assault on boys. It's an invasion of his autonomy, his bodily autonomy and integrity being taken away from him. And nothing, like FGM, rightly so, one of the most horrific things that could happen to a human, especially the latter stages. Is outlawed, illegal, more or less everywhere now. It's pretty, you're doing a pretty good job, but there were no, there were no laws outlawing circumcision, none. And it's just like, it's totally acceptable. And you should, you should go and see, you should, if you don't, people will say, oh, it's just a snip.

• 1:26:07George?

  I'm sure people are saying it now, but you should go and watch a circumcision of a boy on YouTube. And you'll change your mind like that. Like it is not, there are some horrific things you can see and it's just, we have a very misguided perspective of circumcision.

• 1:26:22Chris Williamson?

  Meanwhile, Oprah Winfrey is putting creams made from foreskins on her face.

• 1:26:28George?

  Yeah, I put that post up and people are like, this is sounds like an episode of Black Mirror. And I was like, yeah, except it's real. So what that is, is um, it's been revealed that a bunch of wealthy celebrity women are using a face cream that's formulated from the cloned foreskins of baby boys in Korea. So they're taking foreskins, they're cloning it, they're turning it into face cream and they're slapping it on their face. And it costs like hundreds of dollars a pop. And Oprah Winfrey is interesting because she is a, a, a world renowned advocate against FGM. And yet she goes home and slaps baby foreskins onto her face. And I'm like, I don't, I, I just blows my, it blows my mind reading that.

• 1:27:09George?

  And what happened to the sanctity of the human body? What happened to bodily autonomy and rights? And like, where did they go? And we're like, like I said, FGM is vilified, especially in the Western world, but circumcision is a face cream?

• 1:27:25Chris Williamson?

  So is that, but they're, they're cultured cells, right? They're duplicated. It's not actual, it's not original foreskin. It's carbon copy foreskin.

• 1:27:34George?

  No, it's not like this minced up foreskin. No, it's cloned. I mean, it's very secretive. We don't really know. But I, I mean, I don't, I wouldn't say it really matters how many foreskins are in a, in a jar. It's, it's still the same invasion of bodily autonomy. And like, we wouldn't, we wouldn't have a bunch of gym bros making like protein powders of like female body parts, would we? And yet we've got a bunch of celebrity women making face cream out of male body parts, her baby's body parts. Um, but no, I don't know how many foreskins go into a portion of Oprah Winfrey's face cream. Hopefully not too many, but you're right. It is, it is cloned foreskin, but it's just, it's just cra- it is barbaric.

• 1:28:12Chris Williamson?

  It's pretty grotesque.

• 1:28:13George?

  Yeah, it's like, it is like Black Mirror, like an Orwell film or story or. Yeah.

• 1:28:19Chris Williamson?

  What about uh sexual assault in American men's prisons? That seems to be something else that you you've spoken about that the right probably should pay a bit more attention to.

• 1:28:29George?

  Well, I mean, that was something I was going to bring up. Everyone needs to talk about that. They're not they're also, we talked about how men are not captured in sexual assault data if they're raped by women. But men in men in prisons aren't captured either. They're also, that's another forgotten wedge in the pie chart. And the wedge is nine hundred thousand, more than nine hundred thousand cases of sexual assault in American prisons. And again, if you factor that into the data.

• 1:28:51Chris Williamson?

  That can't be every year.

• 1:28:53George?

  No, that's, I think that's over basically over the course of the study, so it must have been years and years and years.

• 1:28:57Chris Williamson?

  Okay.

• 1:28:57George?

  And that's instances, not not individuals. That's Laura Stempel as well. And it's a massive problem, like physical violence, sexual violence in male prisons is literally seen as a joke. Like, we literally laugh about it. Like, if you want to talk about rape cultures, I think male prisons in America are such a powerful example of that. But you're right, there is another, it's a bit like what I said of circumcision, where there's hypocrisy from the right, where again, around trans people, this obsession of trans people.

• 1:29:29George?

  And a trans woman will go into a women's prison. And then suddenly the right becomes massive ardent advocates of safety in prisons. And yet meanwhile, rival gangs are being mixed together in men's prisons. And no one cares. But one trans woman makes it her way into a a women's prison and everyone loses their mind. And they always try and position it as, oh, we we only care about, you know, women's safety or safety in prisons, but I just don't think that's true. Because then they'd be talking about the hundreds of thousands of cases of sexual assault in men's prisons that they probably write jokes about. So I don't believe they're being, I think they've been quite disgenius.

• 1:30:11George?

  I think it's a lot, it's about a lot, a lot more than prison safety. And yeah, often transphobia.

• 1:30:19Chris Williamson?

  What else? What else is the right not paying sufficient attention to?

• 1:30:24George?

  Yeah, I mean, lots of things. Again, a lot of it's about perpetrating a very old archetype of manliness. A lot of people talk about male disposability, which is a very interesting phenomenon where men and boys, suffering against men and boys is not seen as important as towards women and girls. I guess that's been a running theme of this podcast, and I think it's true. It's impossible to really deny it. And people ask about, why do we not give a shit about men? And then I'm so sick of people on the right, right wing pundits, bringing up this idea of reproductive value, like the idea that women have greater reproductive value than men. Therefore, men's safety is not important, and it shouldn't be important.

• 1:31:06George?

  And then often this is accompanied by some sort of hypothetical story about tribes. And the idea is that you have a tribe of women and men, the men go off to war. And even if 90% of those men die, they can still repopulate the tribe. However, if 90% of the women are killed in that tribe, the tribe is wiped out. And that is basically how they justify male disposability, because men have lesser reproductive value than women. And I think that's a fair point of view. If we lived in prehistoric tribes, if we were wandering the savannah and, you know, climbing trees and flinging shit at each other. But like, look at where we are. Like, I'm sat with a 4K camera filming my face. I'm talking to you the other side of the world. I'm living in a beautiful flat. I'm surrounded by modern technology.

• 1:31:50George?

  And I'm like, it's not right for these podcasters to bring up this fucking ridiculous tribe analogy. And then they leave the podcast, they hop into an Uber and they just fuck off to London. Like, I'm like, unless you're willing to climb a tree and start throwing shit around, I don't think you can start basing your life on tribes. And also, like, so what? Like, human beings are defined by their ability to surpass nature. Like, the naturalistic fallacy is an interesting fallacy where people seem to think that what is set in nature is right, and it can't be changed. And I'm like, look around us, we are defined as a species by outdoing nature. And when it comes to this trope of tribes and use a justification for male disposability,

• 1:32:32George?

  I'm like, we can do better. We can overcome that too, and we need to, rather than reinforcing it. That's something I keep seeing on the right, and it is boring. And it's just... You're just perpetrating and perpetuating the same problem.

• 1:32:46Chris Williamson?

  What would be, what would be an example of male disposability being shown in sort of recent history?

• 1:32:55George?

  Oh, I mean, one that everyone's familiar with is Boko Haram. So I think it was 2014, Boko Haram, who are a terrorist group in Nigeria. They infamously captured, I think, 273 Nigerian girls. Horrible, horrible, horrible crime. Kidnapped them, disappeared, and the world erupted. Everyone, you must have seen Bring Back Our Girls, the big signs. Every celebrity on the red carpet was having it. Michelle Obama had one. You had the Americans, the Americans and the Chinese government sharing data for the first time in ages. I'm like, what? That is, that is incredible. The whole world got together to bring back our girls, quite rightly so. And that was for 273 girls.

• 1:33:40George?

  Most of them were safely made home. But in the following three or four years, 10,000 Nigerian boys were taken by Boko Haram, turned into child soldiers or worse. No one said anything. I didn't see any Bring Back Our Boys signs. And prior to the girls being taken, that had been happening all the time. Often, Boko Haram would take all children, release the girls, kill the boys. That's what they were doing for years. No one cared. But then one time they took the girls, it became a massive global cultural movement. And then they went back to taking boys. 10,000 boys gone in the following three years. Didn't hear anything. That, to me, is male disposability. We just do not see it. We just see men as more disposable, women as more precious, I think.

• 1:34:23Chris Williamson?

  Didn't we, didn't Jess Phillips put a foot in it recently?

• 1:34:26George?

  Yeah. Yeah, I mean, not a week goes by without Jess Phillips putting a foot in it in some way or another. So the UK government currently are looking into sending UK prisoners abroad to international jails to help alleviate the crisis in prisons, overpopulated prisons. I don't support that. I don't support the prison system in general, but that's another, that's another conversation. But the idea is that we're going to start sending British prisoners to international jails and prisons. And Jess Phillips has come in, you know, probably the most. Famous feminist MP in the country. And she said, we should only send men. We should only send men because women in prison are the product of, you know, abuse and sexual violence. And women in prison are actually victims in their own right, which they are.

• 1:35:10George?

  They are, and I agree. But the same is true for men. The men in prisons share the same experiences of abuse. They have the same adolescent childhood experiences and same stories of pain and trauma. And like that is just a fact, like it's not one in six men in prison having sexually abused. Fifty percent have been physically abused, fifty percent have been neglected in childhood. Like, again, like we started the podcast, we're talking about how men are not just some static object where that is inherently bad, born bad. They are shaped by their experiences. And where Jess Phillips can see that for women, and rightly so, she is right. She fails to expand that same compassion to men. And that is not, she does that a lot and it is stupid and it's embarrassing.

• 1:35:55George?

  But yeah, she just wants to send men to these prisons, not women. Yeah.

• 1:36:01Chris Williamson?

  It's the same with the Iranian protests. It's the same in Gaza about who are the protesters that are being killed? Who are the civilians that are being killed?

• 1:36:11George?

  Hmm, yeah, it's the only event we will hear like a headline, it'll be like 100 people killed, including 15 women and children. And no one ever asks, or who are the remaining 85? And the answer is men, men and boys. And we're just constantly seeing women and children, women and children, as if women are children and women are not children. Women are adults. And we, not only that, but we exclude the men. So people don't realise in the Iranian revolution, the so-called women's led revolution, 90% of protester deaths were men and boys. 90%. Every single execution has been a man, for my last time I checked. And like, no mention of that. It's constantly seen as this movement for women, which is fair enough, but they're not alone.

• 1:36:54George?

  Next, right next to those women are men and they are laying down their lives quite literally. And no one cares. They're not, they're so not mentioned in the headlines. No one ever makes a back to us, you know, near Gaza, you hear about these trustees in Palestine, Gaza. And it's always women and children, women and children, women and children. And I feel like that's insulting to women because it infantilizes them and it's devastating to men because it just totally erases their pain and their deaths and their sacrifice. So yeah, it's gamma bias again, yeah.

• 1:37:25Chris Williamson?

  Yeah, yeah. What's, you taught me a new word this week, biphobia. What's biphobia?

• 1:37:35George?

  Well, I mean, I guess biphobia is basically the dislike or repulsion of people that are bisexual. And it's interesting because it's, this is a bit of a double standard where women have very different attitudes in general towards bisexual men than men have towards bisexual women. Like, most, most men will date a bisexual woman. Like, my girlfriend's bisexual and a lot of men think it's, it's great. We don't really care. But there's an interesting sense of biphobia from some women, including bisexual women, that they will not sleep with a bisexual man because they think they're dirty or secretly gay or liars. And

• 1:38:13Chris Williamson?

  Do you know that that's what they think? Or is that you just postulating?

• 1:38:16George?

  Yeah, I mean, I've, I've read the anecdotes. I mean, I've read the story about a bisexual man who, the woman he was dating wanted to bleach him, like jokingly wanted to bleach him because she thought he was dirty because he'd had, he slept with a man. And I posted this, those stats. I think it's something like one in five, only one in five women would have sex with a bisexual man. And a lot of the comments I got were like, yeah, I didn't even tell, I don't even tell women I've had sex with a man. I'd spin them straight. And this idea of like, being secretly gay, a lot of bisexual men, people think they're secretly gay when they're not. And ironically, a lot of the people, a lot of women who are very much for gender equality and inclusivity, in principle, don't extend that to their

• 1:39:01George?

  personal life. That goes straight out the fucking window when it comes to dating. Because now suddenly, all these tropes on bisexual men come out the woodwork and then they use the justification for not, for not dating them. And I get it. I get it. There are things called preferences. I have preferences in dating. I find some people attractive, some people less attractive. But whilst we have preferences to not want to date a bisexual man because you think he's dirty.

• 1:39:27George?

  Or a disease carrier, they're called often. That is biphobia. That is not preference. That is about just biphobia. And I don't, I don't think that is a defence that can be used.

• 1:39:38George?

  But at the same time, I do recognise there are preferences and there's nothing wrong with having a preference. And it's just a very difficult discussion to have. Yeah.

• 1:39:47Chris Williamson?

  Where do you think we're at with the state of men's and boys advocacy? Are we still early adopters, the fucking third wave manosphere, or the holistic manhood, or the integrated, whatever? How early is this? And how far off is the tipping point?

• 1:40:07George?

  Well, what you're talking about there is the diffusion of innovation, which is like a really old theory in social science that talks about how does an idea become viral? How does something become adopted? It works in that civil rights movement, but it also works in terms of like iPhones. How, how many people bought an iPhone? And it basically is a graph of slow progress, slow progress, then suddenly it takes off, reaches mass market success. And that's how an idea becomes viral. But the thing about that diffusion of innovation theory is that you have to reach a tipping point, a tipping point where enough people have adopted an idea that the mass market are feel safe to join them. They're a bit more apprehensive and they need those people making instinctive decisions to go first

• 1:40:48George?

  and then they'll follow. And that's about 16%. So 16% of people need to adopt an idea to reach that tipping point. And yeah, it's an interesting conversation to have in the context of men and boys advocacy, because we are very early on in that graph. We're sort of quite low down in the, well, you have the visionaries, which is that 2%, and the early adopters, which is about 12.5, 13.5%. And I reckon you're in a better position to talk about this, because I get asked a lot about who are the ones that are making waves, breaking new ground. And I'm always like Chris Williamson. But you are the one that's been making these conversations mainstream and cool and intellectual and magnetic and

• 1:41:29George?

  shareable. And I'm like, for as long as you're involved, I'll be hopeful. I realise you talk more generally.

• 1:41:35Chris Williamson?

  Appreciate that. Yeah, it's strange, man. Like threading the needle of having this sort of a conversation about.

• 1:41:44Chris Williamson?

  The challenges that men and boys face about the realities and the uglier sides of both male behavior and female behavior. For a long time, I was so, I would, I would get, I remember the first time I ever had Carl Benjamin on the show, Saigon of a Cad, and you know, say, say about him what you will. I had a lot of fun the times that I spoke to him and um, he's become a friend. And I was so fucking nervous after I did it. I was so nervous because I was like, oh, we, we touched on some, some spicy topics here. We mentioned some things, but ultimately if the things that you're saying are backed up

• 1:42:25Chris Williamson?

  in evidence and they're said with the goodwill of curiosity to try and find out more about what's going on or to understand the situation. I've found that people seem to be, maybe it's just this audience. I don't know, maybe I have an unreasonably reasonable audience and that might be, that genuinely might be the case. Um, but people seem to be very understanding. If you're like, look, I'm not trying to say this to blame or castigate or lay at the feet of someone, an error or, or, or an issue that wasn't theirs that they maybe even weren't aware of. People can usually tell if you're doing something with good intentions.

• 1:43:06Chris Williamson?

  And if you're entering it in good faith and if you're trying to improve the lives of everybody, or if you're trying to bring light to some topic and you're grappling with it. You know, there's some stuff, so much stuff that I read on your Instagram, the Tin Man that everyone should go and follow. So much of the stuff like, I opened up Instagram to see golden retriever videos and gym motivation stuff. I didn't necessarily always want to read about male genital mutilation or the number of guys. So there's a degree of discomfort that's in there, but you go, okay, well, what's the alternative? The alternative is that people don't get to know about this.

• 1:43:41Chris Williamson?

  And it, it just perpetuates this existing, like really unuseful balance of ignorance and.

• 1:43:56Chris Williamson?

  Accusation and persecution wrongful and misinformation and confusion and lack of communication.

• 1:44:06George?

  There is a massive.

• 1:44:07Chris Williamson?

  It doesn't make the situation better.

• 1:44:08George?

  There was a massive branding identity crisis around men and boys advocacy. Everyone seems to think you're a piece of shit for caring about 50% of the world's population. Everyone talks about men's rights as if it's something to be spat upon. And I'm like, well, how about human rights? Are you for them? Like, because men are 50% of all human beings. And it's difficult. I find it very interesting because I am, I like branding. I am a creative solutions sort of expert. And I found it very interesting, this space where there was so much compelling evidence about the disadvantage of men and boys that people are not willing to listen to. It is quite clearly branded entity crisis, where if you can present these facts in a way that, in a way you described, are compassionate and thoughtful and, you know, grown up and intelligent, maybe people will start to listen.

• 1:44:49George?

  And people are listening, not as fast as I would have liked, but we need to get past this stigma and this very old idea of men cannot experience any sort of disadvantage. And if they do, it's their own fault. And we need to see men's issues as structural as women's are. And we also need to remind ourselves that anything we say about men and boys does not, should not diminish what's happened to women and girls. I always sit down to people that disagree with me in this sort of context. And I say, we can have a conversation about women and girls for all day and we'll probably agree on everything. Like, I also care about catcalling. I also hate sexual assault and I'm devastated by the same stories you've heard. I want to solve those problems as much as you, but I'm trying to add to that conversation. I'm trying to add the second half of the problem.

• 1:45:34George?

  I'm trying to widen the perspective. And I don't, my, my politics is not dependent on denying what you're saying. Whereas people I'm talking to, their politics are often predicated on me being wrong. And they have to basically deny that if you think patriarchy theory is the main cause of domestic violence, you need to now deny the fact that 3.9 million, so 2.9 million men. Our victims of abuse, that they just have to disappear in the UK and they don't, they're still here. So I'm far more in favour of inclusive styles of discourse that talks about men and boys.

• 1:46:10Chris Williamson?

  It's so, it's so fucking clunky to have to caveat every single discussion with, I'm not trying to minimise that. You know, you do this weird rain dance, this like fucking ritual before you have the conversation to try and prove that you're not.

• 1:46:31Chris Williamson?

  I don't know what, like some part of some enemy, some real or imagined enemy, some ancient or vestigial fucking bigot. You know, like, oh, you're just one of dot, dot, dot.

• 1:46:45George?

  Yeah, and it goes, that goes right to the top. Like, I'm working right now of someone that's very influential in politics. Probably the most influential, uh, it's not politician, one of the most influential people in politics in regards to men and boys advocacy. And I'm talking to him about how do we actually get change off of Instagram and actually in courtrooms and across homes and in the whole country. And I've shown him a campaign I'm doing that talks about all the different issues and makes them very, very visible in a way that politicians hopefully aren't able to deny for much longer. And he was going through the different points I want to make. And one of them was like, the fact that women can't be held accountable, can't be charged with rape in the UK. And he was like, you can't say that. I was like, why not? It's true. And he was like, it's very politically unpopular.

• 1:47:30George?

  You will make enemies in politics. People will just throw out everything you said if you say that. And it's interesting because that is the game of politics. Like, in the words of Stephen Fry, sometimes it's more, it's more important to be effective than to be right. But I just feel very uncomfortable with the idea that I have to take away the fact that women cannot be held accountable for rape in the UK. For the comfort of politicians. I'm like, that is your job to be a politician, to make change. And I'm not going to put those men at the back of the queue to help pluck take them and make them feel nice and happy. So.

• 1:48:06Chris Williamson?

  What's the, uh, what's the state of? Advocacy, I know that you've been one of the, I think you are probably the leader that I've seen for the Minister for Men, um, like push, what's, what's going on with that? Are you going to be successful or are you just eating shit?

• 1:48:22George?

  Well, this is a great, well, I bought the domain name, so I got that.

• 1:48:26Chris Williamson?

  Did you really?

• 1:48:27George?

  Um, yeah, dot com and dot co.uk. Um, but that was a really interesting, I think, quite positive view of progress. Cause I've been talking about the fact that we need a Minister for Men in the UK to work alongside a Minister for Women for years, for years and years and years. And people thought it was hilarious. People literally laughed at me when I said that. And now it's, it's in the news. It's on the streets outside, it's being discussed by politicians, it's everywhere. I mean, it's still not passed as a petition right now, that's probably not going to be successful. But at least there is a petition now. And like whilst 50% of the public are against it, um, that's more than, that's less than it was, you know, five years ago. And the pushback is getting less and the support is getting more.

• 1:49:11George?

  And I feel like that's a really good insight into the changing tides. And people are becoming a little bit more willing to dip their toes into these issues. And it's about time. And like, we need that mass support, we need signatures, we need people to make these demands and politicians, and we need a Minister for Men. Yeah.

• 1:49:29Chris Williamson?

  Would you do it?

• 1:49:30George?

  To be a Minister for, no, I, I am, nah, politician, like to be a politician to be, I mean, I'll just get thrown out Parliament straight away. I'll just get into a massive argument and probably get arrested or something. Like, I'd probably just stop calling someone names and just shouting. Honestly, I'm not, I'm just, get triggered. I'll just be like, I just, I would speak my mind too much, which I think would be quite refreshing, but it'd probably make my career very, very short.

• 1:49:56Chris Williamson?

  Well, you know, it's a, it's a shame that politics is. Uh, besmirched so much by the political, by the game playing and the fuckery and the what about ism and all the rest of this stuff.

• 1:50:09George?

  Politicking, you know that?

• 1:50:10Chris Williamson?

  No.

• 1:50:11George?

  Oh, I love that concept. When I read that, I didn't, I just knew what it meant.

• 1:50:15Chris Williamson?

  Politicking. Teach me.

• 1:50:17George?

  And it's basically the idea of politicians campaigning for um policy on the purely on the basis of getting the vote. So politic, that's all, that's all you can, that is, you've captured my whole philosophy in politics in just one single word. And my, my whole thought on politicians is that they don't give a fuck about anyone other than themselves. All they care about is getting your vote and they'll say whatever they need to get your vote. And the people who vote most are women. Women are absolutely dominating men in terms of voter turnout every single year. So who do you think politicians are going to appeal to? It's obviously going to be women because they vote more. And that is politicking. And I, I find there's so many disingenuous politicians that do not care. They do not care about you. They just want your vote. And that's why I feel like if

• 1:51:00George?

  we make our votes dependent on these politicians talking about men and boys, that's how we get change. And like, we need to start making these demands, writing to MPs, politicians, you know, rattling a few bird cages. Because otherwise they won't do it. They don't, they just don't care. And that's politicking. I love it.

• 1:51:17Chris Williamson?

  Well, I'm glad that you are uh going off the iPhone and into the real world, at least in some way. I really mean it, man. Your, your work's, your work's very, very impactful. I know that people have told you this before, but you're working so hard to just try and wave this flag for like something that no one cares about. No one wants to give you, it's just a permanent fight in the comments. And yes, you've got your, you know, sixty thousand, hundred thousand supporters, the people that like it, but you're swimming against the tide or pissing into the wind in many ways. Uh, but I, you know, I'm going to continue to try and shove you down people's throats as much as possible. I love the work that you do.

• 1:51:56George?

  I, I mean, I have a slightly more positive view. I think people do care, they just don't know. But I feel like the people that do know, and I meet people every single day, like they're learning every single day. And they're like, I did not know that. And now that I do, everything's changed. And I think most people are like that. They just do not know these things. They do not know, you know, men lead nine, a top 10 causes of death in the USA. They do not know that boys are behind every stage of education. They do not know what devastating circumcision is. They do not know how many millions of men are being abused in, and then when they do know. They care. So the issue is, I guess the ball is in my court now and people like me who are, their job is to make people aware, awareness raising campaigns. And yeah,

• 1:52:40George?

  we need more people like me and yourself to make people aware so they do discover their compassion for men, men and boys. Yeah. And thanks for shoving it down there for, appreciate it.

• 1:52:50Chris Williamson?

  One more time, dude, I'm going to keep on doing it. Every time that you post something, I find it fascinating. I've got an archive of interesting carousels and stuff that I always want to talk to you about. And yeah, it's, it's been great. It's been really, really great seeing, seeing you go on this little journey. So where should people go? They want to keep up to date with the stuff that you do?

• 1:53:07George?

  Uh, I mean, I'm dipping my toes in Twitter now, but still Instagram, at the Tin Men, one word. Uh, and everything you need is from there. I am, I am trying to get off the screen and into people's faces a bit more. I'm going to be sharing more information on that soon. Very exciting campaign. And yeah, at the Tin Men on Instagram.

• 1:53:26Chris Williamson?

  Oh yeah. George, I appreciate you. Thank you.

• 1:53:28George?

  Thank you. Thanks for having me. Bye bye.

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