#538: How I Built The Tim Ferriss Show to 700+ Million Downloads — An Immersive Explanation of All Aspects and Key Decisions (Featuring Chris Hutchins)

How I Built The Tim Ferriss Show to 700+ Million Downloads — An Immersive Explanation of All Aspects and Key Decisions (Featuring Chris Hutchins) | Brought to you by LinkedIn Jobs http://linkedin.com/tim recruitment platform with 770M+ users, Athletic Greens http://athleticgreens.com/tim all-in-one nutritional supplement, and Helix Sleep http://helixsleep.com/tim premium mattresses. More on all three below. Chris Hutchins (@hutchins https://twitter.com/hutchins) is an avid life hacker and financial optimizer. He’s the host of All the Hacks https://www.allthehacks.com/ podcast and the Head of New Product Strategy at Wealthfront https://www.wealthfront.com/tim. Previously, Chris was co-founder and CEO of Grove (acquired by Wealthfront https://www.wealthfront.com/tim), co-founder of Milk (acquired by Google), and a partner at Google Ventures https://www.gv.com/, where he focused on seed and early stage investments. Chris reached out with many questions about podcasting. He had already read much of what I had written https://tim.blog/2016/04/11/tim-ferriss-podcast-business/ and listened to several interviews https://rolfpotts.com/podcast/tim-ferriss/, and this is intended to be an updated guide to all things podcasting. Please enjoy! This episode is brought to you by Athletic Greens https://www.athleticgreens.com/tim. I get asked all the time, “If you could only use one supplement, what would it be?” My answer is usually Athletic Greens https://www.athleticgreens.com/tim, my all-in-one nutritional insurance. I recommended it in The 4-Hour Body in 2010 and did not get paid to do so. I do my best with nutrient-dense meals, of course, but AG https://www.athleticgreens.com/tim further covers my bases with vitamins, minerals, and whole-food-sourced micronutrients that support gut health and the immune system. Right now, Athletic Greens https://www.athleticgreens.com/tim is offering you their Vitamin D Liquid Formula free with your first subscription purchase—a vital nutrient for a strong immune system and strong bones. Visit AthleticGreens.com/Tim https://www.athleticgreens.com/tim to claim this special offer today and receive the free Vitamin D Liquid Formula (and five free travel packs) with your first subscription purchase! That’s up to a one-year supply of Vitamin D as added value when you try their delicious and comprehensive all-in-one daily greens product. * This episode is also brought to you by Helix Sleep http://helixsleep.com/tim! Helix was selected as the #1 overall mattress of 2020 by GQ magazine, Wired, Apartment Therapy, and many others. With Helix http://helixsleep.com/tim, there’s a specific mattress to meet each and every body’s unique comfort needs. Just take their quiz—only two minutes to complete http://helixsleep.com/tim—that matches your body type and sleep preferences to the perfect mattress for you. They have a 10-year warranty, and you get to try it out for a hundred nights, risk free. They’ll even pick it up from you if you don’t love it. And now, to my dear listeners, Helix is offering up to 200 dollars off all mattress orders plus two free pillows at HelixSleep.com/Tim http://helixsleep.com/tim. * This episode is also brought to you by LinkedIn Jobs https://linkedin.com/Tim. Whether you are looking to hire now for a critical role or thinking about needs that you may have in the future, LinkedIn Jobs https://linkedin.com/Tim can help. LinkedIn screens candidates for the hard and soft skills you’re looking for and puts your job in front of candidates looking for job opportunities that match what you have to offer. Using LinkedIn’s active community of more than 770 million professionals worldwide, LinkedIn Jobs https://linkedin.com/Tim can help you find and hire the right person faster. When your business is ready to make that next hire, find the right person with LinkedIn Jobs. And now, you can post a job for free. Just visit LinkedIn.com/Tim https://linkedin.com/Tim. * If you enjoy the podcast, would you please consider leaving a short review on Apple Podcasts https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/the-tim-ferriss-show/id863897795?mt=2? It takes less than 60 seconds, and it really makes a difference in helping to convince hard-to-get guests. I also love reading the reviews! For show notes and past guests, please visit tim.blog/podcast https://tim.blog/podcast/?utm_source=podcast&utm_medium=podcast&utm_campaign=podcast-description. Sign up for Tim’s email newsletter (“5-Bullet Friday”) at tim.blog/friday https://go.tim.blog/5-bullet-friday-1/. For transcripts of episodes, go to tim.blog/transcripts http://tim.blog/transcripts. Discover Tim’s books: tim.blog/books http://tim.blog/books. Follow Tim: Twitter: twitter.com/tferriss https://twitter.com/tferriss Instagram: instagram.com/timferriss https://instagram.com/timferriss/ Facebook: facebook.com/timferriss https://www.facebook.com/TimFerriss/ YouTube: youtube.com/timferriss https://www.youtube.com/timferriss Past guests on The Tim Ferriss Show http://tim.blog/podcast include Jerry Seinfeld https://tim.blog/2020/12/08/jerry-seinfeld/, Hugh Jackman https://tim.blog/2020/06/26/hugh-jackman/, Dr. Jane Goodall https://tim.blog/2020/04/16/jane-goodall/, LeBron James https://tim.blog/2018/11/27/lebron-james-mike-mancias/, Kevin Hart https://tim.blog/2020/05/20/kevin-hart/, Doris Kearns Goodwin https://tim.blog/2018/09/07/doris-kearns-goodwin-leadership/, Jamie Foxx https://tim.blog/2015/12/06/jamie-foxx/, Matthew McConaughey https://tim.blog/2020/10/19/matthew-mcconaughey/, Esther Perel https://tim.blog/2017/05/21/esther-perel/, Elizabeth Gilbert https://tim.blog/2020/05/08/elizabeth-gilbert/, Terry Crews https://tim.blog/2017/12/20/terry-crews-how-to-have-do-and-be-all-you-want/, Sia https://tim.blog/2020/08/12/sia/, Yuval Noah Harari https://tim.blog/2020/10/27/yuval-noah-harari/, Malcolm Gladwell https://tim.blog/2016/06/21/malcolm-gladwell/, Madeleine Albright https://tim.blog/2020/05/27/secretary-madeleine-albright/, Cheryl Strayed https://tim.blog/2017/03/30/cheryl-strayed/, Jim Collins https://tim.blog/2019/02/18/jim-collins/, Mary Karr, https://tim.blog/2020/11/11/mary-karr/ Maria Popova https://tim.blog/2014/10/21/brain-pickings/, Sam Harris https://tim.blog/2020/05/15/sam-harris-2/, Michael Phelps https://tim.blog/2021/01/21/michael-phelps-grant-hackett/, Bob Iger https://tim.blog/2020/01/16/bob-iger/, Edward Norton https://tim.blog/2019/10/31/edward-norton-motherless-brooklyn/, Arnold Schwarzenegger https://tim.blog/2015/02/02/arnold-schwarzenegger/, Neil Strauss https://tim.blog/2014/06/24/neil-strauss/, Ken Burns https://tim.blog/2019/09/12/ken-burns/, Maria Sharapova https://tim.blog/2017/08/26/maria-sharapova/, Marc Andreessen https://tim.blog/2016/05/29/marc-andreessen/, Neil Gaiman https://tim.blog/2019/03/28/neil-gaiman/, Neil de Grasse Tyson https://tim.blog/2019/10/03/neil-degrasse-tyson/, Jocko Willink https://tim.blog/2016/09/21/jocko-willink-on-discipline-leadership-and-overcoming-doubt/, Daniel Ek https://tim.blog/2020/12/03/daniel-ek/, Kelly Slater https://tim.blog/2020/09/08/kelly-slater/, Dr. Peter Attia https://tim.blog/2019/11/27/peter-attia-fasting-metformin-longevity/, Seth Godin https://tim.blog/2016/02/10/seth-godin/, Howard Marks https://tim.blog/2018/09/25/howard-marks/, Dr. Brené Brown https://tim.blog/2020/02/06/brene-brown-striving-self-acceptance-saving-marriages/, Eric Schmidt https://tim.blog/2019/04/09/eric-schmidt/, Michael Lewis https://tim.blog/2020/05/01/michael-lewis/, Joe Gebbia https://tim.blog/2018/03/08/joe-gebbia-co-founder-of-airbnb/, Michael Pollan https://tim.blog/2018/05/06/michael-pollan-how-to-change-your-mind/, Dr. Jordan Peterson https://tim.blog/2021/03/01/jordan-peterson/, Vince Vaughn https://tim.blog/2017/05/31/vince-vaughn/, Brian Koppelman https://tim.blog/2020/04/23/brian-koppelman/, Ramit Sethi https://tim.blog/2019/05/07/ramit-sethi/, Dax Shepard https://tim.blog/2020/11/18/dax-shepard/, Tony Robbins https://tim.blog/2014/10/15/money-master-the-game/, Jim Dethmer https://tim.blog/2020/05/18/jim-dethmer/, Dan Harris https://tim.blog/2020/11/19/dan-harris/, Ray Dalio https://tim.blog/2017/09/13/ray-dalio/, Naval Ravikant https://tim.blog/2015/08/18/the-evolutionary-angel-naval-ravikant/, Vitalik Buterin https://tim.blog/2021/03/08/vitalik-buterin-naval-ravikant/, Elizabeth Lesser https://tim.blog/2021/03/16/elizabeth-lesser/, Amanda Palmer https://tim.blog/2019/04/18/amanda-palmer-2/, Katie Haun https://tim.blog/2021/02/18/katie-haun/, Sir Richard Branson https://tim.blog/2017/10/09/richard-branson/, Chuck Palahniuk https://tim.blog/2020/09/02/chuck-palahniuk/, Arianna Huffington https://tim.blog/2017/10/18/arianna-huffington/, Reid Hoffman https://tim.blog/2015/08/31/the-oracle-of-silicon-valley-reid-hoffman-plus-michael-mccullough/, Bill Burr https://tim.blog/2017/09/17/bill-burr/, Whitney Cummings https://tim.blog/2015/06/26/whitney-cummings/, Rick Rubin https://tim.blog/2015/05/15/rick-rubin/, Dr. Vivek Murthy https://tim.blog/2020/03/26/vivek-murthy/, Darren Aronofsky https://tim.blog/2017/09/09/darren-aronofsky/, and many more. See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Tim Ferriss?

  This episode is brought to you by Athletic Greens. I get asked all the time what I would take if I could only take one supplement. The answer is invariably Athletic Greens. I view it as all in one nutritional insurance. I recommended it, in fact, in The Four Hour Body. This is more than 10 years ago, and I did not get paid to do so. With approximately 75 vitamins, minerals, and whole food sourced ingredients, you'd be very hard pressed to find a more nutrient dense and comprehensive formula on the market. It has multivitamins, multimineral, greens complex, probiotics and prebiotics for gut health, an immunity formula, digestive enzymes, adaptogens, and much more. I usually take it once or twice a day just to make sure I've covered my bases if I miss anything I'm not aware of.

• 0:43Tim Ferriss?

  Of course, I focus on nutrient dense meals to begin with. That's the basis. But Athletic Greens makes it easy to get a lot of nutrition when whole foods aren't readily available from travel packets. I always have them in my bag when I'm zipping around. Right now Athletic Greens is giving my audience a special offer on top of their all in one formula, which is a free vitamin D supplement and five free travel packs with your first subscription purchase. Many of us are deficient in vitamin D. I've found that true for myself, which is usually produced in our bodies from sun exposure. So adding a vitamin D supplement to your daily routine is a great option for additional immune support. Support your immunity, gut health, and energy by visiting athleticgreens.com/tim.

• 1:27Tim Ferriss?

  You'll receive up to a year's supply of vitamin D and five free travel packs with your subscription. Again, that's athleticgreens.com/tim.

• 1:40Tim Ferriss?

  This podcast episode is brought to you by Helix Sleep. Sleep is super important to me. In the last few years, I've come to conclude it is the end all be all that all good things, good mood, good performance, good everything seem to stem from good sleep. So I've tried a lot to optimize it. I've tried pills and potions, all sorts of different mattresses, you name it. And for the last few years, I've been sleeping on a Helix Midnight Luxe mattress. I also have one in the guest bedroom and feedback. From friends has always been fantastic. It's something that they comment on. Helix Sleep has a quiz, takes about two minutes to complete, that matches your body type and sleep preferences to the perfect mattress for you. With Helix, there's a specific mattress for each and

• 2:24Tim Ferriss?

  every body, that is your body, also your taste. So let's say you sleep on your side in like a super soft bed, no problem. Or if you're a back sleeper who likes a mattress that's as firm as a rock, they've got a mattress for you too. Helix was selected as the number one best overall mattress pick of 2020 by GQ Magazine, Wired, Apartment Therapy, and many others. Just go to helixsleep.com/tim, take their two-minute sleep quiz, and they'll match you to a customized mattress that will give you the best sleep of your life. They have a 10-year warranty, and you get to try it out for 100 nights, risk-free. They'll even pick it up from you if you don't love it. And now, my dear listeners, Helix is offering up to $200 off of all mattress orders and two free pillows at

• 3:06Tim Ferriss?

  helixsleep.com/tim. These are not cheap pillows either, so getting two for free is an upgraded deal. So that's up to $200 off and two free pillows at helixsleep.com/tim. That's helix, H-E-L-I-X, sleep.com/tim for up to $200 off. So, check it out one more time. Helix, H-E-L-I-X, sleep.com/tim.

• 3:36Tim Ferriss?

  At this altitude, I can run flat out for a half mile before my hands start shaking.

• 3:41Speaker 01

  Can I ask you a personal question?

• 3:43Tim Ferriss?

  No, we're just sitting in a perfect time.

• 3:46Speaker 01

  I'm a cybernetic organism, living tissue over metal endoskeleton.

• 3:59Tim Ferriss?

  Hello, boys and girls, ladies and germs. This is Tim Ferriss, and welcome to another episode of the Tim Ferriss Show. We have had three technical failures, but we've made it happen, and this is an improv episode. I'm very excited about it because my friend Chris reached out with many questions about podcasting, good questions. He had already read much of what I had written. He'd listened to several Interviews, and this is intended to be an updated guide to all things podcasting. The last time I wrote anything at length about this, I think the Tim Ferriss Show had about 60 or 65 million total downloads. Now it's past 700 million. So the show has grown, a lot has

• 4:39Tim Ferriss?

  happened, technologies have, I want to say developed, not always evolved, as we may end up covering. But Chris, why don't you take a moment to tell people who you are? We've known each other now for at least six years, maybe closer to 10. I can't really even recall how we first met, but we have a mutual friend in Kevin Rose and many other people. Who are you, Chris?

• 5:03Speaker 02

  So, hi, everybody. I'm Chris, Chris Hutchins. I'm a bit of one of those crazy life hacker optimizers, take it to the extreme sometimes, and I host a podcast, hopefully a soon to be award-winning podcast called All The Hacks, where I document my journey to upgrade my life, money, travel, all while spending less and saving more. Outside of that, I'm building new products at Wealthfront. And before all of this, I've started a few companies, sold a few companies, worked in venture capital, investment banking, management consulting, and kind of traveled around the world for eight months. So, bit of a seasoned set of random things, jack of all trades, maybe master of none, and I'm excited to be here.

• 5:45Tim Ferriss?

  Well, I'm excited to jam, because I actually haven't spoken at length in detail about the latest and greatest, or in some cases, the old and the tried and the true that I don't think needs to change. But I want to underscore that you really do know what you're doing when it comes to certain obsessive deep dives that you've done, particularly, I shouldn't say particularly, but including travel and points, and not just saving or cutting costs, but improving the immersive experiences that you have in life. And so you've traveled to roughly 70 countries,

• 6:29Tim Ferriss?

  mostly for free, on points, and there's much more to it. How many episodes have you recorded and published so far of your podcast, just so people have some context?

• 6:40Speaker 02

  This is relatively new. I think I just released episode 19 when we're recording this. So it's been I started in May, it's September, so only, you know, four or five months.

• 6:51Tim Ferriss?

  We'll come at this from many different angles, but where do you think it makes sense to start? In preparation for this, hoping this would be sort of the one-stop shopping, or at least the jumping off point for anyone who really wants to study, maybe not best practices, but good practices within podcasting. Where do you think it makes sense to start?

• 7:12Speaker 02

  So there were two things that you've done that I think really gave me a lot of background. And one was the post you mentioned that you wrote in 2016. And then you did a maybe two-hour or something interview with Rolf Potts on his Deviate podcast and talked a lot about this. So I thought maybe to kick it off, I'll just highlight some of my takeaways from doing my homework. And, you know, feel free to say, whoa, that's wrong, that's changed. But we can kind of run through what I learned and then we can kind of run through that same series of kind of getting started, picking gear, finding guests again, and kind of dive deeper on, on what's changed and how it's evolved and, and questions that maybe were left unanswered in the original stuff.

• 7:55Tim Ferriss?

  Let's do it.

• 7:57Speaker 02

  Perfect. So when it comes to getting started, this is something that I, like you, took a while to decide to start a podcast. And one of the pieces of advice that you gave that was really valuable to me was, you don't have to commit forever. I think it always feels like a thing that you have to do forever. Once you start, it happens every week forever. And you can kind of set a date and say, let's do five, let's do 10 episodes and that's it. And we'll reevaluate. So I think that's a really important takeaway is that knowing you don't have to commit forever. And the other big one is it's a lot more work than it seems. And so you said, only do this if you do it for free, which really means like, it's gotta be you. It's gotta be what format excites you, the tone of voice, the kinds of guests, the questions that are exciting to you, otherwise you'll get bored.

• 8:42Speaker 02

  And the final kind of getting started advice I took away was, look, if you don't have an audience, don't be afraid. Everyone started with some lack of audience at some point, and plenty of people with massive audiences have totally failed in podcasting. So the quick way is just get a couple of episodes out there, keep it simple, do something you love, don't worry about the business side and experiment. And I think that kind of sums up what everyone needs to know in a very concise way before getting started.

• 9:11Tim Ferriss?

  Let me add to that. So I agree with all of that. And I want to add a couple of nuances or just additional comments. So it's helpful to bracket the minimum and then a check in point for your commitment to podcasting. In other words, you could say, I'm only committing to do it to X or for Y number of episodes. I decided to do six episodes, to commit to six episodes in the beginning because I wanted to ensure that I could win even if I failed.

• 9:49Tim Ferriss?

  What that meant was, what skills can I develop, learn, or improve? What relationships can I forge or deepen that will be of value to me even if I stop podcasting? So the minimum effective dose for that is probably not one episode. It's probably not two episodes, probably not three episodes. For me, I thought, eh, it's probably somewhere between five and 10. Let's just commit to doing six. I don't know exactly why I chose six. And the way I could win, even if I failed, in that case, was by improving my ability to ask questions and plan interviews because I was already doing that in the course of writing books,

• 10:33Tim Ferriss?

  when I did research, when I found experts. These were all transferable skills. And then I would also have an excuse to deepen relationships with some of my close friends, because it's pretty creepy to do hours and hours of internet sleuthing on your friends otherwise. But if you have the pretext of an interview, you can actually learn a lot about people like Kevin Rose, our mutual friend, who was my first guest ever, who shafed my nuts really hard. And it's pretty funny to listen to now. It was less amusing at the time. So that's, I think, an aspect of the picking of the minimum dose that's important. Doing something you love is ideal. If you can do something you love, fantastic. If you don't know what it is that you love or would love, because if it's a new medium,

• 11:16Tim Ferriss?

  you may have no idea, at least do something that is sustainable. Don't do something for, say, six episodes that you can't do for 500 episodes. That's my advice. And if you try to out This American Life, This American Life, you're gonna get your face ripped off. There's a reason when they read the credits at the end that they have staff of like 20 or 30 people. It is an incredible amount of work and they work very hard for it to seem seamless and maybe even improvised. Wow, it's so conversational. They do this with the team at Gimlet as well. You listen to like, oh, they're just having a conversation. Like, no, believe me, they're not just having a conversation.

• 11:59Tim Ferriss?

  So sustainability is super important. And like you said, Chris, there's more involved than you expect. And you should ask yourself, this applies to podcasting, it applies to many other things. If this cost twice as much, took twice as much time, would I still do it? And if the answer is no, either don't do it or change the format, change the approach so that the answer is yes. And podcasting is not the native element for all people. So if you think about how people with large audiences have built large audiences, in some cases, they build them on YouTube and then that audience follows them to new formats.

• 12:41Tim Ferriss?

  In some cases, mine would be such a case. They build it through books, but books don't give you direct access to readers. In the same way that podcasts do not give you direct access to your listeners. So I ported the popularity of the books into building a popular blog. The blog is what gave me an audience that then traveled, in part at least, to podcasting. So a lot of building a large audience, if that is one of your goals, and by the way, I don't think that is a worthwhile goal in and of itself. I would ask why, why, why, why, at least a few times? Or so what?

• 13:20Tim Ferriss?

  At the very least, then you need to choose a game you can win. And that requires some self-assessment. But for instance, if you decide you should do podcasting because everyone else is doing podcasting. You are going to be outlasted, outsmarted, outmaneuvered by people who are really, really enthusiastic about the medium, about the format. They're just going to be better and they're going to last longer. There's this gigantic kind of elephant graveyard of three-episode podcasts. So if you're likely to be a casualty, do something else. Pick a different medium.

• 14:00Tim Ferriss?

  And because I mentioned it, I think at the very head of the show, if I didn't, I should have, we had a number of technical difficulties in getting this show started. We had a number of false starts. We began, sorry to throw you guys under the bus, but you kind of failed us today. Zencastr had a number of issues. Then the plan was to jump to Squadcast, but you have used Riverside.fm. All of these platforms I have seen fail. None of them are perfect. And therefore, on the technical side, whether you are in person or remote, the expression that I first learned from friends in the military, "two is one and

• 14:43Tim Ferriss?

  one is none." If you have a single point of failure, you are going to be fucked. At some point, you will have a disaster and it will be a mess. Always have backup options. So in the calendar invite, or in the email that was sent to Chris, and also in my calendar, there are at least two backup options, and both of us are currently recording local backup audio using QuickTime Audio. So those are a few things that I wanted to add. Please continue, Chris.

• 15:16Speaker 02

  So I do want to talk about gear, but I'll ask one question before, which is, in 2017, you said, "Yeah, it's definitely not too late to start a podcast." But, you know, that was a long time ago. 24% of people had listened to a podcast. Now it's closer to 60. There were a few hundred thousand podcasts. Now there's over 2 million. You still think we're early in the days of podcasting and there's lots of opportunity? Or is it too crowded and people should consider new mediums for content?

• 15:42Tim Ferriss?

  I think it's still super early. I think it's still super, super early. There are some...

• 15:48Tim Ferriss?

  Indicators or maybe proxies that you can use for that. The percentage of, say, terrestrial radio or satellite radio advertising dollars that have migrated to podcasting is still extremely low. I don't know what the percentage is, but it's very low, I would anticipate, just based on the types of brands that you see represented. And you can look at other types of media. So based on that alone, I think we are very much in the early days, super, super early days. And that said, we've seen a lot of changes over the last handful of years. If you look at the charts, say, on Apple or elsewhere.

• 16:32Tim Ferriss?

  If you look at Apple, the one-person shops or small-team shops like mine are fewer and fewer and far between. Where, let's just say, when I got started in, whenever it was, 2014, I think, maybe a little bit earlier, you had Joe Rogan way up at the top, of course. You had Nerdist, you had Marc Maron, you had a handful of others who were constantly in the top 10, top 20 on what was then iTunes. What you see now is professional outfits.

• 17:11Tim Ferriss?

  You see companies, you see organizations, WNYC, you see Pushkin, which I think does a really nice job. You see actual companies. You see also incumbents, previous terrestrial incumbents who are now investing dollars into podcasting. So there has never been more competition, but the analogy I might use is, let's use startup investing, something that you and I are quite familiar with. So I had the very good luck of... Starting to do angel investing in 2008.

• 17:51Tim Ferriss?

  Now, this was perfect timing because there was a financial crisis, which meant all the fair weather entrepreneurs, founders and investors kind of ran for the hills. And that left the diehards and the true believers, which meant that the playing field was very uncrowded and you could actually find really, really good startups, I believed, all over the place. In 2008, 2009, it was a great time to invest. In 2015 or so, I decided to exit stage left, not because there weren't great companies. There were great companies, but it was a lot harder. The deal terms were harder.

• 18:35Tim Ferriss?

  There was a huge influx of capital from all over the place, including China. Things were getting really weird for me. And I realized, okay, this just went from single deck blackjack, where you could have a system as a solo player, as a team, to multiple deck blackjack. And I don't have confidence using my own bankroll that I can win in this environment. So I took a long break. Similarly, you just have to be better now. When I started in 2014, and if you had an existing audience that would travel with you, you could be in the top 20, 30, 40, 50 on then iTunes, now Apple with relative ease.

• 19:17Tim Ferriss?

  And you can still do that if you have a massive influx of subscribers over a short period of time. It could be a few days, it could be a week, but you'll fall off. It's simply harder now. So there's all the more reason why you should have confidence that you're going to do this with some degree of dedication to the craft, like you, Chris. You're taking the study of the craft and the practice and the deliberate training, so to speak, very seriously. And you have to have, I think, good reasons for doing it. And a good reason could be, I enjoy doing it. Great, that's a good enough reason. You do not need to be on the charts to have a "successful" podcast, but you have to ask yourself, why am I starting a podcast?

• 20:01Tim Ferriss?

  Why do I want to start a podcast? So let me ask you that, Chris. Why did you want to start a podcast? Why did you decide to start a podcast?

• 20:09Speaker 02

  I think two things happened at the same time. So one was I found myself constantly, whether I was with a group of people I knew or didn't know, kind of telling a story about a level of optimization that in the financial travel world that most people hadn't thought about. And I thought, man, I love telling that story to people. Could I tell that story at more scale? Because it seems like it's happening a person at a time. So that was a piece of it. And then the bigger piece was I loved that game. And I knew that the only way I would get better at that game and go deeper at that game was to learn. And there are people out there that know much more about different types of ways to upgrade life, ways to optimize, ways to make more money or save more money or invest better.

• 20:54Speaker 02

  You know, I was going to find those people and have those conversations anyway, because I was. But I knew that people loved hearing those stories in small groups. And I thought if I had a platform where I could have those conversations and share them, people just like I would see at a dinner table would enjoy listening to them on a run, at home, driving in the car. And so I thought, I'm going to do this anyways. I love doing it. Why not see if other people really do want to listen at scale? And they did.

• 21:22Tim Ferriss?

  Do you still feel like that is enough? The psychic gratification of sharing what you would have done otherwise? Because the reality is, it is kind of what you would have done otherwise. But the setup and the tech and the microphones and the post-production and everything else involved adds a layer of labor and complexity. So what on top of that? If anything, there doesn't need to be anything extra. But how has your thinking changed on what makes it worthwhile to continue or not?

• 21:56Speaker 02

  Well, what's interesting is, let's take an episode I did with a writer, Morgan Housel, and it was all about the psychology of money. I'd read the book. I'd been fascinated by it. I had questions I wanted to ask Morgan. I could probably just reach out and say, hey, I'm just a person and I want to learn more about what you wrote. Can we talk? But I'm guessing I would have had better success, which I did, saying, hey, I have this podcast. I want to talk. I want to ask you those questions and share that with my audience. And so having the podcast lets you level up, I believe, the people you can have those conversations with because there's a reason. It gives a reason to do that. And then as the audience grows, it gives a second reason. So one is you could just reach out and say, can we do a phone call?

• 22:39Speaker 02

  But you know, there's at least a reason. And then as the audience grows, there's more. And that I think is worth the trade off of the amount of work you have to put into it. But you know, you mentioned gear. There's a world where, and I believe you can buy a microphone for under a hundred dollars and use a pair of headphones you already own and keep it pretty simple. And I think to your, your original post and what we talked about earlier, the more simple you make it, the easier it will be to keep going and the more authentic it will be, which you know, you may think you want to say something because it's what the audience wants to hear. And there's this weird thing where it's actually just ask what you want. And most people are more engaged by your engagement with a conversation than if you ask a question

• 23:24Speaker 02

  they want to hear, but you're bored having that conversation.

• 23:26Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah, absolutely. And, and just to give people a sense, right now I'm using what I use more or less all of the time for remote recording. And I remotely record even pre-COVID, probably 80, 90% of my interviews. It allows you to get better guests, by the way.

• 23:49Tim Ferriss?

  Generally speaking, unless you are the undisputed king of podcasts like Joe Rogan, then you can insist on in-person visits, but very few podcasters have that leverage and you will sacrifice some guests by having those conditions. So I do everything remotely. It makes my life easier as well. I'm in a farmhouse right now. I've recorded dozens of podcasts here and I have a Logitech Brio camera, which I do not use all of the time. I very frequently do audio only. We could talk about why I don't do more video.

• 24:22Tim Ferriss?

  I have an Audio-Technica ATR 2100X, one of the more recent, it might be a 2500, but, and you have that exact microphone in front of you. This is probably, what would you say, an $80, $80 to $100 microphone that connects to my MacBook Pro. And then I'm using AirPods for in-ear listening. That's it. That is the sum total of hardware that I am using. And we're currently recording on Riverside.fm, which you use. I typically use Zencastr and Squadcast, but all of these things break, so have backup.

• 25:01Tim Ferriss?

  And if this didn't work, I also have a conference line with no PIN that can be set to record. So if my computer broke, I could call Chris on my cellphone and we could record the conversation. I have backups upon backups upon backups. And trust me, at some point, you're gonna need it.

• 25:26Speaker 02

  Is there a point at which you would just reschedule instead of, or how do you think about that? You know, the quality of a conference bridge being maybe not worth doing now and postponing to when your computer worked again?

• 25:39Tim Ferriss?

  I will reschedule if the connection is really bad or if the audio on the opposite end is very poor. And to try to minimize the likelihood of the audio being poor on the other end,

• 25:59Tim Ferriss?

  we ship every guest a microphone. Unless they already have a really polished setup, we will use Amazon Prime to buy an Audio-Technica 2100 mic and ship it to them. And it's very easy to do. It's 80 to 100 bucks. And that may not make any sense in the beginning or be feasible in the beginning. But right now, for the type of operation that I run, and very quickly, the cost of rescheduling is more to me than $80 to $100.

• 26:33Tim Ferriss?

  However, you can have a great mic in a really terrible room. So if someone's in a room with lots of metal, lots of glass, you could have a very bouncy room even with a decent mic. So there are other technical tricks that are not really tricks, but you could have a mediocre mic in a room with lots of carpet and drapes and you're gonna probably have better sound than a really nice mic in some highly modern metallic glass bouncy room. If you end up in that type of environment, there are tricks you can use like putting pillows in the corners of the room. That's one I learned from Edward Norton, actually. He was in a really bouncy room and he said, "Hold on, I know how to fix this." And he fixed it. I was like, "Wow, that's genius."

• 27:16Tim Ferriss?

  So you do get better at these things over time, but I very rarely reschedule unless one of us is sick or the sound quality is absolutely abysmal. But a bridge line recording is not going to give you Carnegie Hall symphony quality fidelity, but nobody really cares, is what I've realized. I don't use equalizers. I don't use any of these external devices that one might think are necessary. Yes, they can improve quality sometimes, but as Morgan Spurlock said to me on this podcast, "Once you get fancy, fancy gets broken."

• 28:01Tim Ferriss?

  And I prefer to have the fewest number of moving pieces possible. When I record in person, just to cover that, I use the Zoom H6 recording device with XLR cables and generally SM58 stage microphones, which are Shure microphones. They're the oldest microphones you can imagine. Yes. So you have the H6. You could take the SM58 mic and probably throw it against a brick wall and it would be fine. That's my guess. And I can throw all of that gear into a backpack. I can travel with my entire podcast studio, so to speak. It's been good enough for between 600 and 700 episodes and I don't have any plans to change. So that is the gear.

• 28:47Speaker 02

  I use a similar setup and I would say, I don't know if you, you know, a specific one, you could go listen to the episodes I've done and one of them, someone had no headphones, no microphone. We were just using a MacBook and I'd be shocked if someone could actually, that isn't an audio engineer, could go back and pick out which one it is.

• 29:05Tim Ferriss?

  Pro tip that we ended up using earlier in this conversation, which I picked up from Kevin Rose, actually, who has a lot of experience with this kind of thing, is if you're doing a remote recording and you ask someone to check their source, to make sure the inputs and outputs are set properly, they might say, "My mic is selected," but if it sounds funny to you, ask them to tap the mic. If they tap the mic and you don't hear that right, that, that kind of punchy tapping sound, then it means it is not selected. It's probably their headset or the built-in microphone on the laptop. So that's an easy way to test, to see if the proper external mic is selected. All right. Chris, what else should we cover?

• 29:50Speaker 02

  So I think we covered gear a lot. One thing you mentioned was video. Early on, your advice to people was, "Don't use video. It makes it easier for guests. You can look at your notes." You said that's evolved a little bit. We're recording video today. How do you think about that differently now? Or do you think about it differently in a way that wouldn't apply to someone else?

• 30:11Tim Ferriss?

  I record video now if someone wants to record and if I think it will improve the rapport in some fashion. I still frequently record without video because I like to have lots of notes. I do quite a bit of homework. My team does quite a bit of homework for each guest and I like to have my notes in front of me and it sometimes can be very distracting if you're having a conversation with someone on video and you're looking off-screen like Rain Man. I also like the ability to set, and I always set both the laptop and my iPhone to do not disturb because you might just receive a FaceTime audio

• 30:54Tim Ferriss?

  call and that can mess up your interview. It does happen. I've seen it. I've experienced it. It's not fun. So do not disturb, do not disturb. But with do not disturb on my iPhone, if I'm not using video, you could also take yourself off video.

• 31:11Tim Ferriss?

  Temporarily to do this, or you could tell the guest in advance that if you check your iPhone, you're not checking email, you're Googling something. What will sometimes happen is a guest will say, "Oh, well, there's a book by so-and-so. It's called this." "Ah, I can't remember the author name." You can look that up. Or they will say, "There are three people who are really good at X, Y, and Z." They'll name two, and then they'll say, "The second person, I think their first name is Laura or Brian." And you can look it up, so you don't have to deal with it in post-production or put it in the show notes. You can look it up on an iPhone, and no one who is listening will hear you tap the iPhone, but they will very often hear you tap a laptop. So I use my phone in that way.

• 31:53Tim Ferriss?

  Now, you could have a production assistant, or a producer, or an engineer, or someone like that, who would do this for you, which is what Joe Rogan does, but I don't do that. I have a smaller team. By the way, it works spectacularly well. Now, speaking of Joe, so Joe Rogan is fluent in video. He is absolutely adept and expert and comfortable being in front of the cameras and making really good use of cameras. I think one of the reasons, not the only reason, but one of the major reasons that Joe has become as big as he has is his use of YouTube. I don't know if it's still the second-largest search engine in the world, but it is an

• 32:35Tim Ferriss?

  enormous traffic driver, particularly if you take not just your long-form videos and put them online, but create clips, as he has through JRE Clips and so on. And if you are bringing on guests who are going to be capitalizing on news, or who are part of the news themselves, then people will be searching for these temporally relevant topics, whether it's someone who got fired, someone who got in trouble, someone who made a big decision, a CEO who just found themselves in the news. If you do that, you can drive a lot of traffic. I want to...

• 33:17Tim Ferriss?

  Produce, for the most part, evergreen episodes that will have very fat tales they get listened to for years and years and years and don't lose their relevance. That's important to me and I don't want to immerse myself in the news any more than absolutely necessary. So I don't do that. I also don't think that I am as good on video as Joe. He has a studio. He has a visually interesting environment. He is funny. He's a comedian. He's an entertainer, very smart entertainer, but he's a very, very, very skilled entertainer and it makes sense. And they have just more production capacity.

• 33:58Tim Ferriss?

  They've invested more in making that a core component of what they do. I just am not interested enough. Could I make my show bigger? Would it be bigger if I tried to do all of that? I think it would be. But this is an example of knowing where you are strong, knowing where you are perhaps not as strong, and also asking yourself, why am I doing this? Does my show, does The Tim Ferriss Show need to be two times bigger, three times bigger, 10 times bigger? I can't come up with a really compelling reason for why that's the case. Would I like it to grow? Yes. Do I need it to grow even if it involves doing things I dislike? No, that would be

• 34:41Tim Ferriss?

  so stupid. It would be so stupid. And I've made that mistake. Just a quick thanks to one of our sponsors and we'll be right back to the show. This episode is brought to you by LinkedIn Jobs. Today, many small business owners like me are busier than ever. Time spent searching for and interviewing candidates can take time away from managing and, most importantly, growing your business. That's why LinkedIn Jobs has made it easier to get to the candidates worth interviewing faster and for free. Create a free job post in minutes on LinkedIn Jobs to reach your network and beyond to the world's largest professional network of more than 770 million people. Focus on candidates with the skills and experience you need and use screening questions to get your role in front of only the

• 35:26Tim Ferriss?

  Most qualified people, then use the simple tools on LinkedIn jobs to quickly filter and prioritize who you'd like to interview and hire. It's why small businesses rate LinkedIn jobs number one in delivering quality hires over leading competitors. LinkedIn jobs helps you find the candidates worth interviewing faster. Did you know every week nearly 40 million job seekers visit LinkedIn? So try to post your job for free at LinkedIn.com slash Tim, T I M. That's LinkedIn.com slash Tim to post your job for free. Terms and conditions do apply.

• 36:05Speaker 02

  You're at a scale now that your show can afford the, you know, person to help you prep for guests and that kind of stuff. What do you think about people earlier? I'm at a place right now where I've recorded the video of a lot of my interviews.

• 36:18Tim Ferriss?

  Yep.

• 36:19Speaker 02

  But I haven't done anything with it yet, and I know it could help grow the show and the show couldn't monetize to support it. So growth is kind of a factor. It plays into the longevity of the show because it takes time. And yes, I would do it for free, but you got bills, you got, you know, people have things they have to do. So if they want to do it more, it does need to grow. Do you think it would be different if your show was smaller and it couldn't afford all of those things?

• 36:46Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah, well, let me, let me dig into a bunch of pieces of what you just said and ask some follow up questions. So how different would my operation look if I were just getting started? Well, let's rewind the clock. I can tell you exactly what I did when I got started. I wanted to know how to do everything and that's part of my nature. But it's also because I wanted to try to create as elegant an operation as possible for myself. Elegant is not, does not have the same definition, doesn't have the same puzzle pieces for everyone. So I not only recorded everything myself, I edited everything myself. I published everything myself.

• 37:27Tim Ferriss?

  I uploaded the file to hosting services and so on and so forth. So in the very early days, I didn't have someone to help me with research. I still. Appreciate and value having someone to help me with research. But if for whatever reason that weren't possible, I have full confidence that I could do that myself. But let's, let's take a look at something you said, and that is, and it comes back to this question I had earlier of, is the podcast still worth it, right? To get to episode 50, episode 100 for you, what does the podcast need to be for it to be worth doing, well worth doing, easily worth doing, right? So you said, we got bills.

• 38:13Tim Ferriss?

  Shit, got bills to pay. Got to keep this ship afloat. Now, I don't have a perfect window into all of your personal finances, but I have on some reasonable authority, sufficient belief that you could probably cover your podcasting bills. And I know the costs involved with a lot of podcasting without having to monetize the show. So it would be nice to monetize the show, but you could make that money in some other way. So let me jump to a point about monetizing that I mentioned, I believe in that 2016 article, and probably again with Ralph Potts on deviate. And that is, in the beginning, I did not focus on monetization.

• 38:56Tim Ferriss?

  Now, it's very easy for someone to say, well, you already had money there for your advice doesn't apply to me. Your experience doesn't apply to me. I would discourage you from looking at it with that lens, you meaning listener, because you can learn something from everyone. And even if their decisions are not the decisions you would make, it's helpful to learn how more experienced people have thought about it. So the, the way they go about making decisions. I felt, especially since I was doing the editing and so on myself, that any focus on monetization, even if you think it's only going to be 5% of your time, and we can come back to sort of preoccupation versus active time on something.

• 39:42Tim Ferriss?

  I didn't want anything to distract from my focus on improving my ability to prepare an interview and edit. I wanted to focus on the craft, the product, and that was it. That was to be my, my real soul focus, which the editing helps with, by the way. The editing forces you to listen to everything really carefully. Not saying everyone should edit their own stuff. I no longer edit my own episodes, but we do get everything transcribed and we go through and we look at ways to clean up and tighten and possibly cut or rearrange. We do that with a lot of episodes, not all of them. So I didn't focus on or pay attention to monetizing for the first, I don't know. I'd have to go back and somebody could probably

• 40:25Tim Ferriss?

  confirm this, but who knows, 60, 70, 100 episodes, I'm not even sure. By that point, the downloads were such that I had a broader spectrum of possible sponsors to choose from, and that felt better to me than taking whatever came over the transom early. However, I believe, Chris, one of your questions that you had for me was along the lines of, should I say no to things that come over the transom? So let me take a step back and I will answer that, but how are you thinking about monetizing? Because it is very easy, and I'm not saying this to you, Chris, specifically, but for people to get pulled away from the creative

• 41:09Tim Ferriss?

  by the siren song, the mesmerizing nature of monetizing, because every time you go on Twitter, there's something trending that's like, here's how much top influencers get paid on Instagram. And you're like, what? $100,000 a post? That's fucking crazy. I want to make $100,000 a post. And then, oh, boy, then you're lost. So how are you thinking about monetizing right now? And I should say, Chris is smart. You're smart with your money. You are very deliberate and you've done a lot of homework. You're a student of personal finance and money. But how are you thinking about monetizing and what to do or not do with it?

• 41:45Speaker 02

  Yeah, so I think I took a similar approach to you and it was maybe for a slightly, if your reason was to hone the craft, mine was to prove out the longevity. So going to spend any time monetizing your podcast before you realize this is something that I could do for a long time, which you will never know until you do it for at least, you did six. For me, it probably took five or 10, maybe 10 episodes. Until that point, it would have been a complete waste of time to think about monetizing because I didn't know if I was going to do this and the amount of money you're going to make on a 10-episode podcast is almost nothing. So I said, let's make sure this is something I could do forever before I think about it. Then I thought, okay, let's also make sure

• 42:30Speaker 02

  that the amount of money it would generate is even worth the effort. Sponsors have reached out and said, oh, we want to advertise on two episodes. It's like, okay, but like, if I'm going to sell, you know, two sponsors on a show, two episodes at a time, we're talking 50 calls a year to sponsors and that's just the ones that say yes. So maybe you're, you're doing, you know, 200 calls to try to line sponsors up. That just seemed like a distraction for how much it would make. So I had a similar kind of thought, which is get to a point in time where the amount of money you'd make for the amount of work it would take to bring that money in is worth it. And the only deviation from that was when people cold outreach and say, hey, can we just do this? And it's like, well, now it's no longer work, but even then,

• 43:15Speaker 02

  I've since decided to say no, not because I think it would ruin the show, but just because I have a list of things that I prioritize. And for me, it's making the content great and finding the people to bring on. If I spend time on anything else, it takes away from that and that is not yet on autopilot. And I think ultimately, that's all that really matters. Like your show's not going to be good if it's not something people enjoy listening to, which is usually a factor of who's talking and how much those people have thought about what they're going to say, or, or at least prepared to have a good conversation.

• 43:49Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah, I think that makes a whole lot of sense. Couple of thoughts also on monetizing. Figure out what would be amazing from a monetizing perspective. And I'm very deliberately not saying sponsorship or advertising perspective, because there are many different ways to convert a podcast into, I shouldn't say convert, is a side effect of doing an awesome podcast to produce income. Let's just say you are a high-priced consultant and you don't have any advertising, but you generate clients from the podcast.

• 44:32Tim Ferriss?

  That would be a somewhat straightforward example. You could have, as many people do, especially in the early days, affiliate relationships, very often the most lucrative of which are going to be with certain types of products, right? Domain services, hosting, et cetera. They have a very high stickiness with their customers. High level of stickiness, low churn rate, which means high lifetime value. They're willing to pay you quite a bit upfront. But is that what you want? Are those the products, services, et cetera, that you want to be endorsing? Maybe, maybe not. There are many different ways to approach this, many different ways to generate income.

• 45:16Tim Ferriss?

  Perhaps you have a newsletter that is a paid newsletter and people sign up for that. Perhaps you have a different version of the podcast, or you have a membership of some sort outside of newsletters. Maybe people pay for the show notes. Maybe these are all real examples that I've seen. For myself, I decided that sponsorship was the easiest. I've done some experiments with membership and they all just entailed more headache for me and I felt ultimately less value all around than sponsorships, assuming in my case that I am using or testing everything personally. That is where.

• 46:00Tim Ferriss?

  The sponsorships are somewhat time consuming for me. But I don't, I don't mind it because I actually use like, if you walked around my house, you would recognize all sorts of stuff from my sponsors. And I don't just have them because they're sponsors. Like I have them because they are good products or services. And let me give a couple of examples of questioning best practices or standard operating procedure with sponsors. And this may help people to simplify their approach. So I did not ask myself, how can I make as much money with sponsors through the podcast? Because there are no constraints on that.

• 46:45Tim Ferriss?

  You're not applying constraints in such a way to ensure that your life does not become a miserable existence of just being a pinata for every ask and request of dozens of sponsors. Right? As it might be in the example that you gave. That could be a huge pain in the ass. So what constraints could you apply to ensure that it does not become a monster you have to feed or a huge distraction? A very simple constraint that I applied was, A, we're going to have our own insertion order document that is going to be non-negotiable and everyone is going to prepay for their spots. We will not have any terms. We're not going to have accounts receivable. We're not going to chase people for payment.

• 47:30Tim Ferriss?

  Everybody is going to pay upfront. And what do you think the response was from sponsors initially? The response was, what the fuck are you talking about? We get terms for everyone. That's how this is done. And I said, that's fine. We don't have to work together. This is just what allows me and my tiny team to remain sane. So if it's not worth it, it's not worth it. I totally understand. Let me get back to work and make the podcast so good that there will be at least a few sponsors who are going to say, you know what? Fuck it. We will pay you upfront. And that is something we have stuck to. And I cannot tell you how much that has simplified our lives and our operations.

• 48:15Tim Ferriss?

  It also acts as a litmus test for commitment from sponsors. Because as you noted, to fill

• 48:25Tim Ferriss?

  Let's just say in your case, right? 50 different sponsors at two spots apiece. If you have a high churn rate, meaning a lot of those people take two episodes and then split and never come back, you're just gonna have to do that again next year. That's exhausting. Right? So I want to make sure there's a high level of commitment, but there's also a high level of vetting on my side. Therefore, a high probability that the product and the company will do really, really well on the podcast because I don't want them to do two or three spots. And we do insist on a test of multiple spots. I'm not sure if it's two right now, it might be three. And my podcast is expensive, very, very, very expensive.

• 49:09Tim Ferriss?

  I mean, it's a premium podcast. I want them to spend millions of dollars on the podcasts over a long period of time. So everything is geared towards that because it's, it just simplifies everything for everyone. But the point I wanted to make is question best practices. And if you are not in a position to question best practices, your product isn't good enough or you just don't have enough leverage for some reason, and you should take a very close look at those reasons. But it doesn't hurt to ask, for instance, what does every, almost 99% of authors out there do? They publish a book in hardcover, six to nine months later, the book comes out in paperback

• 49:51Tim Ferriss?

  and they hit the press junket once again and they go on tour to announce the launch of paperback. None of my books have ever gone to paperback. Why is that, Tim Ferriss? I'll tell you. It's because, and the numbers vary, but not by that much. Let's say that you're getting a 12% royalty on your hardcover book. Paperback royalty is probably going to be 6%, 6.5%. So broadly speaking, paperback royalties are, you'll get paid 50% of what you're currently earning per book by going to paperback. What does that mean?

• 50:32Tim Ferriss?

  That means you have to sell twice as many books to make the same amount of money. I'm skipping over some specifics here, but more or less you have to sell twice as many books to make what you are making right now. What is the benefit to the reader of this? Well, we live in a world with audio, with Kindle. And the benefit to the customer, we also have libraries where you can get e-format for free oftentimes. And actually, I learned of a very cool, I think it was a Chrome extension on your podcast, in fact, about this. The benefit to the consumer used to be they could save, whatever it might be, $5 on cover price.

• 51:17Tim Ferriss?

  With Amazon, which is generally selling it almost, I mean, often close to wholesale prices, that benefit just no longer exists. So for a marginal to nonexistent benefit to the end reader, you are going to voluntarily cut your royalties in half, which means you have to sell twice as many books to earn the same amount per year. That made no sense to me. So I've never done it. And to their credit, my publishers, early on, were open to this logic for staying in hardcover. And it worked out really, really well. I did not have a lot of leverage in the beginning, right? I did not have sort of Tim Ferriss and Markiplier's people, or some people perceive it today.

• 52:02Tim Ferriss?

  I simply laid out the logic, right? So really question what you have to do, because sometimes those best practices make no sense whatsoever.

• 52:11Speaker 02

  We've talked about getting ready and all of that, but I'm curious, I think the bulk of what goes into podcasting is finding guests, prepping for the conversation, and having the conversation. And I'll tell everyone, even if you don't have a podcast, thinking about how to find interesting people and to have a better, more informative, exciting conversation is probably valuable just in life. I mean, you said the reason you got started, and if you never continued, you will have at least learned the skill that was really valuable. So I'll start with finding people. When you first wrote your original post, there wasn't that much about... About finding people, you know, look for people you're interested in.

• 52:52Speaker 02

  The one thing that you said, maybe not in that post that I thought was really interesting was, don't put as much value as you think on how big of a name they are. That maybe half of your top episodes are people that your listeners had never heard of before. And so it just keeps coming back to content is really, really important. And people like good content more than they like bad content with a fancy name. I can attest to some of the episodes where I thought people had the smallest names that no one had ever heard of, have far outperformed conversations I've had with like Ramit Sethi, who, you know, we had a great conversation and lots of people know his name. And that is something that I don't think I thought going in would ever be true.

• 53:35Tim Ferriss?

  Yes.

• 53:38Tim Ferriss?

  Why yes, let's jump in. So this comes back to the initial question of why do you want to do a podcast? And maybe it should be framed differently. What is so compelling about this that you're going to want to do 100 episodes of this podcast? Maybe that's the question. What is so compelling about this that you will be so thrilled about doing 100 episodes of this podcast? That you would pay, not get paid, but you would pay to do this podcast? Chances are the answer is not banging your head against a wall, trying to get through a phalanx of publicists and lawyers and managers,

• 54:20Tim Ferriss?

  and getting the runaround from like Hollywood entourage for a year to get a guest. Chances are you wouldn't pay to do that. If you chase famous people, you are going to do that, just to be clear. So maybe you should focus on doing something that really satisfies you. And maybe in some niche, God knows where, some way, somehow, it's so fucking good that like 100 people who might know famous people are like, wow, this is really smart. That's not guaranteed, but it's a possibility. So for me, the answer is follow your interests.

• 55:05Tim Ferriss?

  And make it easy in the beginning. So in the first, I want to say five to 10, maybe 20 or 30 episodes, I only interviewed people I knew quite well because I didn't need the nerves of interviewing a stranger to add to what was already somewhat challenging. Does that make sense? And I remember, I think it was Ed Catmull, the former president of Pixar, who was the first person I'd ever interviewed, who I hadn't had a conversation with prior to the actual interview. And it was nerve wracking. Ended up being a really fun interview,

• 55:47Tim Ferriss?

  but it was very stressful for me. Why? I couldn't really pinpoint because I talked to strangers all the time. And that's certainly true with the books, but it felt different. So make it as easy as possible in the beginning. Stack the deck so that you can win in the beginning. And for me, that meant doing it with friends. In terms of finding guests, there are as many ways as you could imagine, and probably more than you could imagine. But the focus of the show will direct how you search. So in my case, The Tim Ferriss

• 56:29Tim Ferriss?

  Show has always been about world-class performers in different disciplines and trying to tease out the habits, routines, favorite books, et cetera, that make them tick, or that they think might contribute to making them good at what they do. Frameworks, decisions, thought process, all of that. Turns out that's very, very broad. So I have some people on the docket, like there's a, I think it's a violin assessor, like evaluator, like someone who assesses and rehabilitates, you know, multimillion dollar violins. I can tell you with great confidence that that does not have a large built-in audience.

• 57:16Tim Ferriss?

  But it's interesting to me. And I also think about which guests will care enough to bring their A game. It doesn't matter how famous your guest is. It doesn't matter how good your guest is, if they don't bring their A game. Chris, one of the things you asked me if I'd be willing to do is listen to a few episodes of your podcast and provide feedback. And the first episode I listened to was actually the first episode you published, which I learned later was the fifth that you'd recorded, which is smart, on pro travel hacks with, is it Lee Rowan? Yep. Is that how you say the last name? Yeah, Rowan.

• 57:55Tim Ferriss?

  And, and Lee is amazing. Lee is like Sam Harris. If he didn't have a teleprompter or something, that man speaks in finished prose. It's fucking ridiculous, right? So, so Lee is one of those guests who clearly brought his A game. And I thought you did a very good job in the interview, and it's an area where you have a lot of domain expertise. But honestly, you could have been making like zoo animal noises, and he could have just run, and it would have been a incredible interview slash monologue. Do you know what I mean? Yeah. If you were just like, I'm gonna give you words that I pull out of this hat, and

• 58:37Tim Ferriss?

  I want you to riff for five minutes. And you're like, arthropod, uh, tax optimization, uh, grizzly bears. Like, I'm sure it would have been a really fascinating conversation, because Lee is just that good. You know what I mean? There are those guests. Esther Perel is one who comes to mind immediately. Hugh Jackman was, was like that for me. There are many guests, including those you wouldn't recognize, who are going to be really, really, really good. So, a big part of guest selection is also improving as an interviewer, in quotation marks. Ultimately, it is very hard to fix a bad guest. It does not matter how good

• 59:22Tim Ferriss?

  you are as an interviewer. The only fix that I have found is if I generally budget 90 to 120 minutes for an interview, I'll usually say 90. If I get 30 minutes in and I'm like, "Oh my God, this is a stillborn." Like, "This is a mess." "This is, we're not getting anywhere." Which, by the way, can happen with people who are very, very, very good conversationalists, but as soon as you hit record, once it's an interview and not a conversation over wine at dinner, they get really stilted and weird and can't be themselves. That happens quite often. Then I will talk more. This doesn't work for everyone. It won't work for everyone, but generally, I'm going to come into the interview having done a lot of homework.

• 1:00:04Tim Ferriss?

  I'll have some domain familiarity, if not expertise, and I will then ask a question where I can reciprocate and give examples or buy time by talking about something else. And in doing so, I will extend the time. We might record for two to two and a half hours. And then we can cut that down to, say, 30 to 60 minutes. It will probably include a lot of me. And the downside to that is people will be like, "Wow, this guy really likes to hear himself talk." And it's like, "No, I just saved this interview." And at the end of the day, there will be some actionable takeaways within that interview, right? So that's one way to save it. I will only try to save in an interview like that if someone is at least trying and

• 1:00:49Tim Ferriss?

  they have done the prep work. So when I talk to people, or I should say, prior to ever interviewing, people will have a list of commonly asked, rapid-fire questions, which I have right here. People will recognize a lot of them from Tribe of Mentors and other places, but there are certain questions I ask a lot, like the metaphorical billboard question, favorite failures, et cetera. There's certain questions I ask frequently. I send this to people in advance. I generally don't send other questions in advance. And I always talk to people beforehand for five to 10 minutes before recording to loosen them up.

• 1:01:31Tim Ferriss?

  This is assuming they're not somebody who's got a publisher cracking the whip on my face. So assuming they have a little bit of slack in the system, we'll talk in the beginning. I will first say, "You, like all of my guests, have final cut. You can see a transcript beforehand. You can listen to the audio. Any edits you want to make, we can make. This is not a show about gotchas."

• 1:01:54Tim Ferriss?

  So number one, there's that. And I will say, I've been screwed by journalists before. I've been had my trust betrayed. I've had things cherry picked. I've been misquoted. It sucks. I'm not going to do that. And you have final cut. Which, by the way, is what Inside the Actors Studio always did. And what you might have seen on TV for those episodes, 45 minutes, an hour, was actually several hours of recording. They would cut down substantially. So I'll do that first. And in the, say, warm-up calisthenics, I will always ask someone, what would make this interview a home run? When you look back three, six months from now, what would make this an absolute home run? Where when people ask you, what are your favorite two or three interviews?

• 1:02:37Tim Ferriss?

  This is one of those two or three. And people are always, almost always surprised when I ask that. Because it's, it's never asked. And I'll tell them, because that can inform how I try to steer the conversation. It will also inform how we promote the episode. So let me know if you have an answer. And if not, if you have an answer later, we can try to customize things. I will also ask them, is there anything you absolutely don't want to talk about? Or something that you're really sick of talking about, that you just don't want to rehash? I will ask that. And by the time you ask these questions, or these types of questions, A, someone is warmed up a little bit.

• 1:03:22Tim Ferriss?

  B, they will think to themselves, okay, wow, this guy's really put some thought into this, is aware that I'm coming into this with certain goals, and hopes, or fears. And this is not his first rodeo. And what I'll also then tell people is, we can always cut things later, but we can't put interesting things in. So feel free to curse, be yourself, like, let it all hang out. We can always cut things later, but we can't put it in. We can't put the fun in. So go crazy, and we can always cut. I would say, out of...

• 1:04:05Tim Ferriss?

  Whatever it is now, 600 to 700 episodes, less than 3% of the guests ever ask to see the audio or transcript. It's very uncommon, but I will take notes as we talk. And if someone, say, mentions something like a lawsuit, which might be legally complicated for them, it were broadcast to millions of people, or just made public to, honestly, an audience of 100 people. Or if they mention, say, details about their family, or where they live, or they say, "Let me give out my email address," I will flag all of those things, and I will talk to them afterwards and say, "Do you want to keep this in? Are you sure you want to keep this in?

• 1:04:49Tim Ferriss?

  I would suggest you cut this..." Dot, dot, dot, dot, dot, to look out for them also. And then, my team will also listen to things and review transcripts to try to identify other things that should be cut. Twitter is an excellent way to source guests. To come back to that question you asked so long ago. Twitter is an excellent way to find guests, although part of my feedback to you on your podcast is, you mentioned Twitter a lot, and Twitter is a very, even though it's expanded a lot, and I'm sure it rankles Twitter to death, that Donald Trump kind of saved Twitter. How funny is that? It's still a very tech-centric environment.

• 1:05:31Tim Ferriss?

  And so, I would suggest to you that you drive people to the website, and preferably some type of newsletter, so that you have the ability to communicate directly with your listeners. Podcasting is still largely a black box. It's very difficult to get good analytics. This is also why it's very difficult for me to give growth advice. Because it's very difficult to confirm attribution for different types of organic or paid acquisition or PR. It's incredibly difficult. We can talk about growth. I'm happy

• 1:06:10Tim Ferriss?

  to talk about it. But the reason Twitter works specifically for guest recruitment is probably similar to how you could use other platforms, but my other platforms are completely deluged. For instance, maybe you could use Instagram DMs for this, but because I'm flooded by DMs and anyone apparently can send me a DM on Instagram, I can't use it. There's too much noise, not enough signal. So it's an unusable tool for me. But on Twitter, if you follow someone and then you like something of theirs and then you retweet, and it's a lot easier if you have a verified account, of course, to get someone's attention. But if you follow them, like something, retweet something, maybe reply to something of theirs,

• 1:06:55Tim Ferriss?

  and kind of do it all at once so that you occupy more of their timeline if they're looking at at replies and things like this. If they follow you, you can DM them. And if you DM them and connect with them, you can do so without having any of their contact information. You don't have their email address. You don't have their phone number. If they dislike you, they can block you. In other words, they don't have the same fear factor associated with you having a direct line to them in any fashion. So for Tribe of Mentors, as an example, the book, there were 100, maybe 120 people who answered many of the

• 1:07:37Tim Ferriss?

  common questions for the podcast. And the way I connected with Ben Stiller and dozens of the larger celebrities, better known figures, was through Twitter. That is how I made contact with them. It is also a very good way to make contact with well-known people, or even if they're not well-known, difficult to reach people. And to circumvent around their multiple layers of entourage. Because if you email an agent or a manager, just get ready for the merry go round of bullshit to start. And there are some great agents and managers out there. I don't want to imply that there aren't. But if you're dealing with anything related to Hollywood, nine

• 1:08:21Tim Ferriss?

  times out of 10, you are just going to get this incredible runaround dance that can last forever. There are some incredibly talented and hardworking and great agents and managers. So again, not to malign all of those people in those categories, but you run the risk of an incredible amount of hurry up and wait that can last years. Even at this point, for me, by the way, that is true.

• 1:08:51Speaker 02

  Do you think if you had their email, you would use it over Twitter? Or is it you think Twitter is a better medium?

• 1:08:57Tim Ferriss?

  It might be better. It may be less crowded. It depends entirely on how many people they follow. Yeah. So it depends a lot. I will say that as someone who gets an incredible amount of bullshit sent to me through one means or another, that if I have channels that are intended for people to get in touch with me, and they disregard those channels and think they're clever by barraging me somehow, they're immediately blacklisted. And most people, if they do get a random email from you, what I would suggest, if you're going to take that approach, that you indicate in the email how you got their

• 1:09:39Tim Ferriss?

  email address. No one on my team will ever reply to someone who called emails, or if they try to get a hold on like phones or anything like that, immediate blacklist. But maybe via email, if they reach out, if they don't indicate how they found the email, no response. Like, they need to clarify that first. But if they have channels for getting in touch with them, I would suggest that first.

• 1:10:03Speaker 02

  Unless they're the, their agency.

• 1:10:05Tim Ferriss?

  It's not that you can't and should never reach out to an agent or a PR agency or a manager to try to reach, say, a celebrity or someone who's well-known. It's that you should expect that to take a lot of time.

• 1:10:26Tim Ferriss?

  And an alternative or a compliment to that would be Twitter. With all of the time, and this is true actually for a lot of optimizing in general for me, even though I am fascinated by sort of, we can talk about what kind of what optimized means, right? Optimize for what is a good question when thinking about a lot of these things. But if I think about the number of podcasters or would be podcasters who ask me about guest recruitment, and they don't need my help to get 90% of the people out there. So really, the question is, how do I get guests who are hard to reach?

• 1:11:09Tim Ferriss?

  That's the question. If they completely avoided guests who are hard to reach and just focused on fucking recording another 10 episodes in the same amount of time, the same number of hours that they're going to blow trying to get Oprah on their podcast? God bless Oprah. I wish I could have her on my podcast. I don't think it's going to happen. I think they would be much further ahead at the end of the day.

• 1:11:34Speaker 02

  I'll say two things about that first episode I did with Lee. One, Lee had never been on another podcast. So Lee is not a celebrity name that I think anyone knows. And that podcast, that first episode has had two and a half times more downloads than every other episode. Yeah. So it's content way over the name. And the other thing, just because I thought it was a funny example of technology failing. So in that episode, we actually recorded in person, we used a Zoom, and we had a bad SD card, no backup. And so that episode was actually, three days later, rerecording the episodes. It was a little different than the original, but I will say, going into that, I had this huge

• 1:12:19Speaker 02

  fear that you'll never be able to recreate a good episode if you have to. And I'm not saying I would ever encourage it, but that fear was kind of busted. So I would rather have had the backup of the original because it's hard to try to keep it going. But if you have to, it's not always a bad outcome.

• 1:12:37Tim Ferriss?

  Not always bad outcome. So I should actually modify my gear recommendation and say that I also have redundancy.

• 1:12:44Tim Ferriss?

  In person. So I have the H6. I've got that. Usually I'll have another H6 sitting out and recording, but without the XLR. So it'll be sort of a field recording setup. I may also have an iPhone with a Lightning port-connected Shure microphone. They make some really, really cool, smaller microphones. I can't remember the exact model number, but I will have redundancy in person as well as backup options remotely. Now, I want to come back to one thing. For those people who want to find this

• 1:13:26Tim Ferriss?

  episode, we'll link to it in the show notes, obviously, for the Pro Travel Hacks, episode number one of All the Hacks. I have another piece of feedback there for you. Lee Rowan is L-E-I-G-H, last name R-O-W-A-N. So two things I want to say. The first piece of feedback is that I would definitely transcribe all of your episodes and read them yourself, in the beginning, especially, and look for terms that you repeat a lot and try to trim those down. So for instance, as essential as the term is to the namesake of the podcast, All the Hacks, I would suggest perhaps dialing down on the

• 1:14:11Tim Ferriss?

  volume of using the word hack or hacks and thinking about it like a magazine article. If that word came up over and over again, the editor would be like, here's thesaurus.com. Please come up with some other words. So on the audio side, I think it's very similar. And we all have these tics. We all have tics. And I remember, actually, after the Ed Catmull episode, oh, this is terrible, I looked on social to see what type of feedback there might be. And I saw many tweets with

• 1:14:44Tim Ferriss?

  Mmm, mmm, mmm, MMM, dot, dot, dot, MMM, dot, dot, dot, MMM, dot, dot, dot. You're driving me fucking crazy. And it turned out, I was so nervous that every time he said something interesting, I went, "Mmm, mmm, mmm," like some cave creature. And it was just cringe-worthy to listen to. I had no awareness that I was doing it. And there are other words, pet phrases, et cetera, that in any given interview, I might repeat way too many times. So, keep an eye out for that. The other way that I used transcripts early on, and one of your questions for me has been, "How have you honed your interviewing skills? Do you ask friends, mentors to listen to episodes and give feedback?

• 1:15:29Tim Ferriss?

  Do you re-listen to your own episodes?" Let me answer those specifically, and then I'll come back to how I use the transcript. Do I re-listen to my own episodes? No, I don't. I read the transcripts because it is more painfully obvious what you need to change. You can get away with things in conversation that work and can work really well. There is no one good style of interviewing, or one great style of conversation. There are many, many ways to do this, and many ways to play this game. So, I don't think it makes any sense for everyone to emulate one particular interviewer or style of interviewing.

• 1:16:07Tim Ferriss?

  However, reading the transcript will make you acutely aware of any repetition, verbal tics, things like that. So, I do not listen to them, unless I'm checking audio quality, which I used to do, of course. But, these days, I have a team to help with that. And by team, I mean a contracted, post-production, sound engineer. This is not... I do not have... I have two full-time employees for everything that I do in my life, just to give people an idea of how small my team is. Do I ask friends or mentors to listen? Sometimes I do.

• 1:16:45Tim Ferriss?

  But, in the beginning, if I did that, and this is true with asking friends for feedback on writing as well...

• 1:16:56Tim Ferriss?

  I don't think it's very high yield, very helpful. And certainly, I think it's quite frustrating for the friends you're asking for advice. If you just say, "Give me feedback," I don't think that's specific enough. So in the case of writing, what I would do, and still do, if I'm writing a book, I split up chapters which are intended to mostly be self-sufficient. They're kind of modular in that way. They're like feature magazine articles, the chapters. And I will send, say, a single chapter to three or four friends. Ideally, they are writers or lawyers, or they've gone to law school. This is for writing, although it can apply to audio as well.

• 1:17:40Tim Ferriss?

  The reason for that is that both writers and people who have reviewed documents or learned to use a legal eye for reviewing text have a keen eye for ambiguity. They have a keen eye for anything superfluous that you just do not need, that should be cut or can be cut. They have very, very sharp observation with respect to that. So they make good proofreaders, in my experience. And I will say, among other things, please read this. And if anything is confusing, please note that. You can love it, you can hate it, I'm fine with either of those. But if it's confusing, it's no good for anyone. So if anything's confusing, please note.

• 1:18:23Tim Ferriss?

  If your mind starts to wander, please note where that is. If your mind starts to wander, it means it's dragging. So I listened to a few of your episodes. There were a few points where I was going on a hike. Like, there were points when I was totally immersed in the audio, and then there were points where I'm like, "A squirrel, trees, a bird, a butterfly," which is fine, because I'm on a hike. But your intention, I assume, is to captivate me with the audio. And there are points where my mind started to wander. So you can ask someone to indicate. Like, if your mind starts to wander, indicate the time code. Make sure you use the same application for the time code because it can vary from application to application. So if you're using Overcast, use Overcast. If it's Pocket Casts,

• 1:19:08Tim Ferriss?

  use Podcasts. If it's Spotify, use Spotify. But have everyone use the same app. Okay. In addition to that, I will say if you could only keep 20%, if I were going to cut 80% of this interview, which 20% should I keep? And would you cut it? Hold on one second, I'll get to that. Then conversely, and you don't have to use both of these, but I would say if I had to cut 20%, which 20% would I cut? I actually like that question more, but I do ask both for different reasons. Because if I give it to four people, if one person loves a section and three other people say, "Cut it," I will keep it. If anyone loves something, I keep it. That's my rule. But very often, I wouldn't

• 1:19:50Tim Ferriss?

  ask for feedback if I weren't planning on somehow using the feedback if I found it valuable. So the answer is yes, I very often make these cuts. But asking your friends to listen to audio and do this is really time consuming, and it's actually very hard for them to specify things. So what did I do with my transcripts? One thing I did is I ended up reaching out and finding someone who did research and guest prep and everything for Inside the Actor's Studio. And I asked them if they would be willing to read transcripts of some of my early episodes and to indicate where they thought I could improve, what they think I

• 1:20:30Tim Ferriss?

  should cut, where they think the sequence might be off in terms of questions. And that's what we did. I would send them Word docs, and they would add comments and redline and so on. You could certainly use Google Docs or something else. I now use Google Docs for this type of thing. But that is how I improved my interviewing. And interviewing just as an aside, but it's not really an aside, this is sort of a core piece of the discussion, is like anything else, right? It's like basketball, like what makes a good basketball player? Well, which position are they playing?

• 1:21:08Tim Ferriss?

  What is the other team, right? If they're boxers, like styles make fights, right? It's like, okay, just because A beats B and B beats C doesn't mean A is gonna beat C. It really depends on styles. And if you look at salespeople, what makes a good salesperson? Well, what are they selling? Some people are so charismatic and have this reality distortion field that people want to befriend them, and they'll buy from them as a result of that. Some people are super, super technical and kind of dispassionate in a way. And others are really good at deal structure and figuring out conditional purchase orders and kind of navigating the wants and needs of the other person

• 1:21:48Tim Ferriss?

  and being very, very creative in how to structure a purchase, maybe finance a purchase, right? These are all different characteristics and different skillsets. Yet, all of them could be exceptionally good salespeople. The same thing is true in podcasting. You know, if you want to grow your podcast, like, turn yourself into a super hot woman and talk about blowjob.

• 1:22:14Tim Ferriss?

  I've seen a few podcasts that have done really well by doing that. In addition to many other things that you have to get right, that is sort of, it's not necessary, but not sufficient, I wouldn't say it's necessary. But you can't do that, Chris. You could, I don't know, maybe you'd find a market for it, but that's not gonna work for you. If I tried to be Joe Rogan with his knack and talent and developed skill for comedy, it would fall flat. Not gonna try to be Joe Rogan. James Lipton, when he ran Inside the Actor Studio, never deviated from his questions. He had his list of questions, they were stacked in order on these blue cards, and he would never deviate.

• 1:22:57Tim Ferriss?

  Even if there was a side door to a topic that could be more interesting, he would not take that side door. Now, some people might judge that harshly and say, "Well, that's stupid, he should've taken the side door." Well, does anyone know your podcast? A lot of people know Inside the Actor Studio, seems to have worked pretty well. Maybe that format was exactly what he needed. Then you have folks who come in with meticulous notes. I come in with lots and lots and lots and lots of notes. That works for me. Larry King came in blind. Larry King, who also, one could say, was early to the radio game in the same way that some people were early to the podcast game. So you have to take that into consideration

• 1:23:41Tim Ferriss?

  and maybe discount things a little bit, but he would come in with beginner's eyes to ask the naive questions that a listener might want to ask. He didn't want to know more than the listener or the viewer. So this is all to say, becoming a better interviewer is really becoming your best self as an interviewer. But no matter what reviewing transcripts for me is a core piece of that. And collecting questions. I remember I would effectively have not a three-ring binder, but a collection of questions. I would take photographs of my phone. Pre-COVID, certainly, if you're taking flights, it'd be the only time that I read magazines. And you look at these in-flight magazines, there are always

• 1:24:25Tim Ferriss?

  interviews. And if I found a good question, I would take a photograph and I would test it. If I listened to a podcast and I heard a good question, I would note it. I've been interviewing people for hiring for a new position recently, and someone I was interviewing, I solicited questions and they said, "How do you give feedback? Could you give me a few examples of when people have disappointed you and how you've handled that?" And I thought to myself, "Holy shit, that's a good question. I might steal that one." So be a collector and a tester of questions also.

• 1:25:03Speaker 02

  So I have a bunch, I'm like going back, man, I have a bunch of follow-ups here.

• 1:25:08Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah, let's do it.

• 1:25:10Speaker 02

  Backing up to the prep, how long are you spending? Let's go back to if you were doing this all on your own, preparing for an interview.

• 1:25:18Tim Ferriss?

  It depends on the interview, but I would say generally, minimum, a few hours. So let's just call it minimum two to four hours. And I have some approaches for that that I can share. And maximum, for instance, if there is a possible big break interview, and one of those for me was Arnold Schwarzenegger, when that finally came together, I spent probably four or five days digesting everything about Arnold Schwarzenegger, watching interviews, watching movies, reading books. Going through every past interview I could find, I wanted to be the best-prepared interviewer

• 1:26:03Tim Ferriss?

  he had ever met, basically. And therefore, I took it very, very seriously. But if we're talking about on the average side, let's just assume that's three to four hours. Now, I spend less time because I have help and I have cultivated a system and also improved the system with the input of team members, how to prepare, research documents. I would say two to four hours. I will also ask guests to send their favorite two to three long-form interviews.

• 1:26:41Tim Ferriss?

  I will ask them, and not all guests are keen to do this, but some are very keen, for exploratory topics or questions that they think could be fun for us and the audience, and anything else that they would like to send. So I open that door, and all of those things are received typically weeks or months in advance, because the editorial calendar is built out quite far in advance. At least these days, it is. If you're doing prep from scratch, if the person has a Wikipedia page, I look for the

• 1:27:19Tim Ferriss?

  strangest or most esoteric/tiny unusual mention in Wikipedia, and I do a deep dive on that point. And I go into the citations. I will certainly look at social. This is important, because, for instance, in between the time that you book a guest and you record, they could have a family member die. They could have any number of things happen. They could have some type of disaster in the press. You want to be aware of what is going on. So I don't spend a lot of time on social, but I will check in and go back at least a month or two to ensure that I have a basic understanding of what is on their minds and hearts. That doesn't take very long.

• 1:28:04Tim Ferriss?

  I would say that's less than, less than 30 minutes. So you have Wikipedia, and then long-form interviews. So I will look at print. I will start, print meaning text, long-form text interviews. I will look at the interviews that they've sent. And that helps me in a number of different ways. It shows me where they're good. It shows me where they stall out or don't have answers. It also helps me to gather what I consider greatest hits stories. And here's what I mean by that.

• 1:28:43Tim Ferriss?

  We all have stories that we have told more than once, just like comedians who have worked on their material and refined over and over again. That 60 minute special. We all have stories that over time, we have determined get a great response. And I want to know what those are. And sometimes I'll ask them point blank, either in prep or while we're doing the warm up in the beginning, I'll say, hey, is there a story that I can cue? I don't want to hear the story now, but a story that's really funny or that always gets a response from audiences. Maybe you've done a lot of speaking engagements.

• 1:29:26Tim Ferriss?

  It's something that people always come up to you and mention. Is there any story or anecdote or metaphor, could be anything, parable that comes to mind? And oftentimes they'll say, let me think about that. Yeah, there is. Okay. Ask me about the time that X. Ask me about when I was in college and why I happened. Great. I will plant one of those greatest hits stories within the first 10 minutes, if I have one of those, to pull people in and hopefully pass the driveway test, as I heard someone from NPR put it, which is, and this happens with podcasts too. When you're listening to it in the car and you've got 10 or 20 minutes left and you get home and you just have to finish it.

• 1:30:11Tim Ferriss?

  So you stay in the car in the driveway and you listen to the end. I think it's helpful to plan that through. So those are a few of the ways that I do research. If we have any common friends.

• 1:30:25Tim Ferriss?

  Or acquaintances, I will also ask them for topics and questions they think might be fun, or that might take us on the road less traveled. And I used to do this more than I do now, but I will sometimes post it to social and ask what types of questions people would love me to ask. Given the size of my audience on social now, that makes less and less sense because it's very hard to filter, very hard to gather them. I will sometimes do that, but not terribly often.

• 1:30:57Speaker 02

  Have you ever done so much research that you kind of knew the entire conversation you would have in advance? Because you'd learned, you know, you'd read someone's book, you learned all this information. It's like coming in Arnold Schwarzenegger so prepared. You know, there are probably things that you wanted to talk about that you knew the answers to, but how did that go? Because now it's not as engaging because you know the answers.

• 1:31:21Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah, I will always leave lots of virgin territory. So I will have some familiarity, not with all guests, but some with greatest hits stories. So I'll plant a few of those. But generally speaking, my interviews are going to be at least 90 minutes. That will be maximum five to 20 minutes of the conversation. There may also be things that they've talked about, but there's some aspect that was left out and I'll ask about that. So my rule, or one of the fundamental precepts of how I approach podcasting is if it's interesting

• 1:32:02Tim Ferriss?

  to you, it will be interesting to other people. You can't fucking fake it. People can smell it out. It's like dogs can smell fear. Audiences know when you are stoked and audiences know when you're faking it. So you gotta make the interviews interesting for yourself. Even if it gets into some really strange topics that are going to appeal to a very small percentage of your audience, doesn't matter. You gotta include it. And you can always cut it out later, but you gotta make it interesting for yourself. So in the case of Schwarzenegger, yes, I had consumed vast quantities of interviews and footage and

• 1:32:45Tim Ferriss?

  commentary and so on related to Arnold, but he has decades of

• 1:32:51Tim Ferriss?

  Time on this planet and there is a lot that is not covered. So it was easy for me to weave in questions that would take us to unexplored areas. That was very, very easy. I'll also say, do not get too attached to your research. In the sense that 90 minutes goes very, very quickly. I mean, we've been recording for more than 90 minutes now. 90 minutes goes very quickly. So if you have tons of research in front of you, pick the five to seven questions you most want to get answered. That is for 90 minutes.

• 1:33:34Tim Ferriss?

  Keep in mind, because I want the freedom and the slack to explore side doors. And we may end up scrapping all the research that I've done and save it for a round two, which is something I do quite a lot. And then I'll circle the things that we didn't get to with a highlighter and put R2 on them, take photographs, put it into Evernote and I share that with my team and I'm like, this is what we'll use for a round two. Don't be attached to finishing all of your questions. And very often what I will do to try to limit the impulse to do that is I will block an interview into sections. I don't do this always, but sometimes to let a guest know what is coming, I will say for the first 30 minutes, we're going to bounce all over the place.

• 1:34:17Tim Ferriss?

  It's going to be background, personal story, et cetera. And I always ask them for specifics and examples. High concept, abstract stuff bores the shit out of audiences. It bores the shit out of me. There can be some high concept stuff, but we need real examples, real details and so on. If someone's not willing to do that, by the way, I will sometimes not publish the audio. So if they don't bring their A game, if they're not playing to win and really doing the prep, I don't feel obligated to publish. That happens very rarely, but I'd say around a dozen interviews I haven't published. Like if they're not actually trying, if they're not... Attempting to do what will appeal to the audience, I'm not going to publish.

• 1:35:02Tim Ferriss?

  Are you direct with them in your telling them why you didn't publish? Sometimes, sometimes, sometimes, yeah. Sometimes you just lose, lose the audio. Oh, yeah, exactly. I mean, I wish I could tell you that I'm always 100% honest about that. But sometimes, especially in the early days, I was not confident or comfortable enough to do that. So there was a lot of audio that just vanished into the cloud. Hard to explain, but it happens. And, and sometimes there would be a make good on that. So let's say they have an excellent book, but the interview was just terrible. Then I might offer to take an excerpt from the book from a particularly good chapter, put it on the blog, and then use that as a way to assist in some fashion.

• 1:35:48Tim Ferriss?

  One of the questions that you had, and don't lose track of your follow up questions, but one of the questions you had is, do I read the books? These days, no. And in fact, I get sent and have been sent, there's a point where I was getting sent 50 plus books a week from publishers. By the way, never signed up for these lists, never asked for them. So if any publishers are listening, please take me off your list. Cause I, I'm going to start putting specific names on the sort of public hall of shame for spamming me with physical books. You're killing trees. You're causing the decline of our earth unnecessarily with books that I'm just going to give away. Stop it. Stop it. Stop doing it.

• 1:36:31Tim Ferriss?

  Take me off your lists. But the point is, I was getting 50 plus books a week, and that's just untenable. I can't, even the books from friends or acquaintances, if you consider the hundreds of people I've had on the podcast and the many people that I know and have met over the years, it's physically impossible for me to read these books and I don't want to have to pick and choose. So I actually put up. People can see it at tim.blog/newbooks. It is the one decision that removes a thousand decisions. There's a blog post about that. And one of the policies is I will not read the books beforehand. I'm only reading old books, meaning books that have not been published in this year. So I don't do that.

• 1:37:12Tim Ferriss?

  However, you can ask the publicist or the author to send you some high level concepts or a one or two pager if they're using that for interviews and so on. You can have them do that, but I do not read books in advance. There have been cases where I've read the book in preparation, like in Arnold Schwarzenegger's case, or if the authors are authors I've followed for a long time, like Walter Isaacson, for instance, who's written incredible biographies of Benjamin Franklin and Da Vinci and so on. Then I will read the books, but it's quite rare, especially in the last two years.

• 1:37:52Tim Ferriss?

  But in the beginning, yes, look, you gotta earn the quality of the output in your interviews. And if reading is going to help, then do it. Because in the beginning, you're not going to be getting sent 50 books a week. You may have slack in the system to do that. What other questions or topics?

• 1:38:13Speaker 02

  In the beginning, did you ever, as I've even found myself, as your interview skills get better and better, it's easier and easier. But in the beginning, did you ever just take a pause in an interview and say, let me just take a minute to really like regroup and replan where this is going to go? Maybe you don't tell them exactly why, but what kind of things might we have found on the chopping floor?

• 1:38:34Tim Ferriss?

  I will always tell people in advance that they should feel free to take a water break or a bathroom break and that they can also restate anything. So if they get two sentences into a story and they're like, ah, this isn't that good. I want to start over. They can just say that, nah, you know, let me just start that over. Take two seconds of silence, start over and we can clean it up. That also gives me the ability, and I'll say this, I may need a water break or a bathroom break. That gives me the ability, if I need a breather, water, bathroom, or just to clear my head and figure out where is this going? Where do I want to take this? Then I'll do that. But my episodes are, generally speaking, minimally edited, very minimally edited.

• 1:39:19Tim Ferriss?

  Although the number of ticks... Will determine how much editing. It is incredible how many smart people have atrocious verbal tics. They will say like, like, like, like, like, literally 100 plus times in a 90 minute interview. I do not exaggerate. Or someone will say, You know. You know, you know what I'm saying? Which is actually a very, I've noticed some gender patterns. I know it's very unfashionable to talk about such things, but men, the you know, you know, tends to be more of a male thing across the board.

• 1:40:00Tim Ferriss?

  And like, a lot of men say like, but it's especially noticeable for a lot of women, a lot of female guests. It's kind of interesting that the tics seem to skew in, in different genders and different directions. So, so, dot, dot, dot, so, dot, dot, um, uh, ah. Those are all very common. There was one guest, I'm not going to name him by name, although I think he'd find it funny. He said, he had a really good one. He, he said, and whatnot? And he'd be like, da, da, da, da, da, and whatnot, da, da, da, da, and whatnot. And he said it so often. And at the time, I just didn't want to deal with having to edit it. So I left it in and he went into the office the day after the podcast had come out and

• 1:40:45Tim Ferriss?

  all his coworkers started calling him Mr. Whatnot. And you will absolutely notice that. So I want my guests to sound as good as possible. If they're nervous, I will tell them that, like, my job is to make you sound as good as possible. If you're nervous, put that on me. It is my responsibility as the interviewer to direct and shape and prompt in the best way possible. Just be yourself. Take any nerves and just put it on me. It's all on me. So I will also say that if people are nervous. So that'd be a good example. Uh, dot, dot, dot. If you do it once or twice, it's fine and you can leave it in.

• 1:41:28Tim Ferriss?

  But if you hear that at the beginning of every answer, then it's a problem. Another tic would be, that's a good question. That's a good question. Oh, that's a good question. That's a great question. Oh, that's a good question. You might hear that literally 20 times in one interview. You gotta clip that. They just won't sound. As good as they should otherwise, and that's part of your responsibility.

• 1:41:53Speaker 02

  But if you're just getting started, there's a product that I've used called Descript or Descript, I don't know exactly.

• 1:41:59Tim Ferriss?

  Descript is great.

• 1:42:00Speaker 02

  Yeah. And it makes it really easy to find these filler words. I still find it needs some tweaking around the edges because they're not perfect, but it's a great tool for like running through a transcript that's auto-generated, but certainly cheaper than if you were paying someone to, you know, word for word, transcribe everything.

• 1:42:17Tim Ferriss?

  Mm hmm. Absolutely. And looking at another question that you sent me, because to lay out how this podcast came to be, you sent me a bunch of very good questions via email, which I requested after we had an initial conversation. And one of them, which I then asked to answer in this format, so I could point people to it, is you seem to understand your audience well. How did you build that understanding? Did you survey them? Ask for email feedback or something else? Okay, I'll give you the tactical answer and then I'm going to give you the principle behind most of my thinking. I have surveyed my audience, but I haven't done that at length in many, many years.

• 1:42:58Tim Ferriss?

  The reason I surveyed my audience also was to gather demographic data, average household income and many other things so that I could present that to sponsors. Because at the time I had dozens of sponsors coming in and I could not answer those questions. Now with Facebook Analytics, assuming you are present on multiple platforms or your podcast is present on multiple platforms, you have many different ways that you can gather this data now. Facebook would be one. There are many other options. I did survey, but I would say the way I've gotten to know my audience is, this is going to be a very unsatisfying answer.

• 1:43:38Tim Ferriss?

  Fortunately, I think there's a satisfying principle that comes after it, is over more than a decade, since Four Hour Workweek came out in 2007, I started the blog, I want to say in 2005 or 2006, I have been growing and learning alongside my audience for

• 1:43:59Tim Ferriss?

  13 plus years now and you really get to know your audience and your audience will change over time. So since launching the podcast, I would say my audience, my readership was 80, 20, 80% male, 20% female. Let's just keep it simple. I know that gender is a sensitive topic and there are more options, but let's just keep it basic for now. I would say as of a few years ago, it's more 60, 40, female, male, and I have changed over time somewhat. Blog, social, blog, meaning blog comments, social media feedback.

• 1:44:44Tim Ferriss?

  These are all things that I pay some attention to, but that can quickly get overwhelming. So I would suggest that people listen to, I'll give you the upshot in a moment, but listen to my interview with Tim Urban, who has an incredible blog called Wait But Why? And if he had followed any of the advice for how to create a popular blog, by the way, he would not have done what he did. I mean, some of his pieces I want to say are 30,000, 50,000 words. I mean, they're books. Some of his multi-part blog posts are effectively books. They're long. Not all of them are long. One of my favorites is The Tail End.

• 1:45:27Tim Ferriss?

  It's not germane to what we're talking about, but The Tail End, just search The Tail End by Tim Urban. Everyone should read it. It will improve your life. It will improve how you relate to your family. It's a must read. It'll take you 10 minutes. But he has talked, and I think he also talked about this in Tribe of Mentors, about writing for his audience. And he said, it's really easy. And I'm paraphrasing here, but basically, he imagines a huge stadium and each seat is filled by another Tim Urban. So an entire stadium filled of himself.

• 1:46:03Tim Ferriss?

  And he is just writing what he would want to read. And it sounds so simplistic. It sounds almost ridiculous. And if it is incredibly simplistic, it is incredibly effective as well. So if you know yourself and you pay attention to what excites you, you pay attention to your fears, you pay attention to the goals that you have, you pay attention to the things that you struggle with, even though you've tried to fix them before, you pay attention to the things that bother you.

• 1:46:40Tim Ferriss?

  You at least have a guaranteed market of one. A lot of people fuck that up. They start speculating and you know, they're like a 22 year old guy and they're like, you know what, I went to Wharton and I figured out doing all of these financial models and management consulting, there's this huge opportunity for new moms who need blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, for their kids and you know, regenerative blah de blah. They don't know anything about any of these things, but they've identified a huge market opportunity. And that is where they're going to focus their energies for building a company. That can work. I'm not saying it can't work in terms of good financial outcomes. Are they going to have a lot of fun doing it? Probably not.

• 1:47:20Tim Ferriss?

  In the world of podcasting, in the world of writing, don't assume you are someone of superhuman empathy and that you can guess what other people need. Just focus on yourself and the personal will end up being the most universal. If that makes sense, I'll give you an example. This might screw up the audio for a second, but I'm holding up an AirPods case. All right. Now, who else has an AirPods case? My girlfriend. And we mix up cases all the time. And it's a huge pain in the ass because sometimes I'll pick up what I think are mine. They're hers and the earbuds aren't even in the case.

• 1:48:04Tim Ferriss?

  They're upstairs somewhere and then I get to a coffee shop where I'm supposed to work or do something and I can't take a phone call. And this problem has repeated itself over and over and over again. I tried to say, use a Sharpie to write a name on the outside. Anyone who's tried that knows that it immediately gets rubbed off, doesn't work. So. The solution that I figured out is you open the case and you just put your initials inside the divots at the very top. So you can see T there at the top, never gets worn off, works every time, and we have not mixed up our AirPods since. This is the first time I'm talking about that, but I suspect I'm not the only person who has had this problem.

• 1:48:45Speaker 02

  There is a piece of blue masking tape on my wife's AirPods case, which does not fall off like marker.

• 1:48:52Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah. So you could do that as well. You could use masking tape. I mean, there are multiple solutions here. This is the one that worked for us. Great. Where to next?

• 1:49:01Speaker 02

  So the audience thing is interesting. I know you're someone who likes stats and analyzing the data. There is some interesting data that I'm not sure if it even makes sense to do anything with. So you've got your downloads per episode. You've got these charts that Apple and Spotify give you of like, where do people drop off in an episode? Do you look at that data? Do you do anything with it? Do you completely ignore it?

• 1:49:26Tim Ferriss?

  I do pay attention to downloads, not a lot of attention. I haven't looked at my stats in weeks. But if an episode does unusually well, if it's several standard deviations, say away from other episodes, and there isn't an easy explanation for it. So if I have LeBron James on the podcast as an example, which I did, then if that episode is a runaway hit, I'm not going to be that surprised because some of what was featured in the episode is picked up by ESPN and different comments are quoted all over the place. So there's a lot of carry. But if there's an outlier that isn't easily explained,

• 1:50:08Tim Ferriss?

  then I want to take a close look at that. If there's an underperformer that isn't easily explained, I also want to take a close look at that. Determining any causality whatsoever is really difficult, unless there's a technical problem. So very often, if there is an underperformer, the first thing that we look for are technical problems. Was there an issue with any of the major platforms? And that is important to keep an eye on. But I have not found the vast majority of data that is easy to collect or to find to be that actionable. But I'd be curious to hear your perspective because things have changed and the tools have become better.

• 1:50:53Tim Ferriss?

  But still, I think it is tempting to conclude causality with, say, an N of one, with one episode that does something strange. And it's very, very hard with any conviction for me to say that that's going to be an accurate read.

• 1:51:12Speaker 02

  I have not found anything super effective to use with kind of the standard platform analytics. Every now and then I'm like, wow, that episode did a little better. I haven't seen any major order of magnitude changes. You know, there's been this one's 10% up, 10% down. I kind of attribute that to all kinds of randomness.

• 1:51:31Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah.

• 1:51:31Speaker 02

  The one thing that I will say, maybe this falls under analytics and it's a, another tip from Kevin Rose was Chartable is a platform that you can use for lots of analytics things. But the one thing they do that's really cool is if you put their prefix in front of your feed, which means every episode just gets hosted on a platform, you can tell your hosting platform, hey, make sure the URL include this other thing also so that someone else sees whenever that's requested. And so you can create a link. So, you know, if this were on my show, it'd be link chartable.com slash A T H Tim. And then Chartable will say what IP address went to the link?

• 1:52:15Speaker 02

  And then look for whether that IP address actually requested an episode. And so you can go and say, here's a link to promote an episode. You could put it on different social channels. You could give it to a guest if they want to promote it. And you could see which channels are actually converting to downloads, which I think is something that it's always easy to see who clicked what, but did they actually listen to the episode? Now you can't find out how many minutes they listened to or anything like that. But it's at least one piece of evidence to support what to do. And I used it to make a decision, which was interesting. When you are promoting an episode, you basically have two choices. You can send a link to every platform out there, which some people do. They go on Twitter and they're like, check out my new episode.

• 1:52:59Speaker 02

  Here it is on iTunes and here it is on Google and here it is on Spotify. And here it is, here, here, here. Or you can link to a site, like your own website where it's click here. And now there's like seven player buttons where the individual listener could jump off to. Or Chartable will let you say, if someone opens up an iPhone, just directly take them to the podcast app, which is great if they use that. It's probably a terrible experience if they're a Spotify or an Overcast listener. So I actually tested out one episode I did one way, one I did the other way, one I did the next way. And I just looked at which one of those links converted better. And the best conversion was sending them to my website with the player links on it, than trying to guess or listing multiple things.

• 1:53:42Tim Ferriss?

  What success is depends on how you define success and what metrics constitute success for you. So one could be increase in downloads.

• 1:53:54Tim Ferriss?

  Another could be increase in plays, which is a lot trickier, although different platforms count downloads and plays differently. So you might have automatic downloads in the background on Apple. Things may have changed, but at least a few years ago, that was the case. And that would count as a download, even if it were never touched, never seen by the person who owns that iPhone. Versus say on Spotify, if someone clicks play, that counts. And then people might look at their analytics and conclude, oh, Spotify is only 5% of my downloads, in quotation marks, therefore I really don't need to pay attention to it.

• 1:54:36Tim Ferriss?

  Whereas in reality, maybe it's 20 or 30% or more of your actual plays. So it's important to understand the limitations and the.

• 1:54:46Tim Ferriss?

  Mechanics of some of these platforms. I would also say an additional benefit of sending people to your website is that you can offer or incentivize them to sign up for something like a newsletter. Because as it stands, if you are publishing through an RSS feed in the way that most people do, you do not have a direct relationship, or I should say, you don't have the ability to communicate effectively, directly with the people who listen to your podcast. And I view that as a problem, in the same way that I view any business based on a single platform as highly vulnerable. I remember talking to somebody who had, it was something, I don't know, $10 million

• 1:55:31Tim Ferriss?

  a year business built on a Facebook page of some type, Facebook pages. And I asked them how that was going for them. And they said, "Well, it's going great, but it feels like I have the most profitable McDonald's in the world built on top of an active volcano." Any moment, at any moment, the algorithm could be changed, suddenly, "Oh, you're a business page. Okay, now we're going to throttle your organic reach to like 10% of your audience, and you're going to have to pay to reach the people you thought were guaranteed to see your message." I don't like that. I don't like that risk.

• 1:56:11Tim Ferriss?

  And therefore, for me at least, one of the core drivers for using the newsletter, as I have, you know, Five Bullet Fridays is the most popular aspect of the newsletter, which is free. So, listeners, you can find that at tim.blog/friday. I've been doing that for a long time now, is to establish...

• 1:56:36Tim Ferriss?

  A direct line of communication with my listeners and readers. And quite frankly, also because text is my native language. Everything started with books. And so in the same way that Rogan is really, really, really, really good on video. He's also quite clever via text. I mean, I think his, there are many good reasons why he is incredibly popular on Instagram. I mean, some of his, some of his captions and so on are exceptional and they're long, some of them. For me, that translates to feeling very comfortable, very competent, very good about the newsletter. Writing Five Bullet Friday is therapeutic for me.

• 1:57:15Tim Ferriss?

  So it is in a way, a diary and self-therapy and quote unquote, "marketing all in one", which is great. So those are a few thoughts, but I don't pay a lot of attention to data, but I will look at trend lines over time. And if there's some type of catalyzing event or concern, especially due to technical problems or new policies on platforms, then I'll take a quick look at that. But the fact of the matter is, I wouldn't pay too much attention to data or specific data sets until you've asked yourself, "What action will I take or not take? Or what behavioral will change based on looking at this data set?"

• 1:58:00Tim Ferriss?

  And if the answer is none and none, do something else. Unless you're just, it nurtures your soul and kind of tickles your nuts to chew on data. If that's just your fun, that's your recreation, great, have fun. But otherwise, I wouldn't pay too much attention to it.

• 1:58:18Speaker 02

  So one of the, the most common things I think people look at data for, and it's not clear, like you said, that they would do anything about it, is to try to see if their audience is growing.

• 1:58:29Tim Ferriss?

  Yep.

• 1:58:30Speaker 02

  So I know you said, "Don't think about growth, but we can come back to growth." I think one of the interesting things is, a lot of people have podcasts, good content. And, you know, I've been asked to go on some podcasts where they get 100, 200 downloads an episode and they're just not breaking out, but it's not because they don't have good content. You obviously came into this, I remember you said that when you launched your podcast, it was the number one podcast in iTunes.

• 1:58:55Tim Ferriss?

  Yep.

• 1:58:56Speaker 02

  I know you get a boost when you launch, but not everyone has that. Do you think, other than good content? Is growth something you think people should spend any time on? Because people have to find that good content.

• 1:59:10Tim Ferriss?

  Sure. I think growth, I think awareness is perfectly valid to focus on. And I do pay attention to growth. I do track, I'm very well aware of like the average number of downloads at week two, at week six, per episode and total number of downloads. And I do pay attention to a handful of key metrics. I just don't, I don't pay attention to them to the extent that they become a distraction from things that I think are more important. But in the beginning, for sure, I launched, like I said, 2014 and the ecosystem has exploded since.

• 1:59:53Tim Ferriss?

  Competition is, I mean, probably a million X what it was. I mean, at least a few thousand X what it was. Although I would say just, just because there are a lot of podcasts doesn't mean automatically that you have competition. Competition for what? What is the scarce resource that you are competing for? If not, why is it a competition? Is it an ego thing? What is the competition? I think these are questions worth asking. But to come back to growth, so when I launched in 2014, I should also say there were people who said to me, "That ship has sailed. It's too late. There's no point doing a podcast." In 2014, so I think they were wrong then and the people who say that now, I also think are wrong.

• 2:00:38Tim Ferriss?

  Still very, very early. Think about it. I mean, Amazon has only come into this space in a big way very recently and they're very quietly, I suspect, doing lots of interesting things, but they have not thrown all their weight behind this.

• 2:00:58Tim Ferriss?

  And they have a lot of weight to throw. That is just one example. We are so early still, I think. But with respect to what has helped increase downloads, I would say being on other podcasts first and foremost.

• 2:01:18Tim Ferriss?

  Helped drive subscribers. You need to be explicit about asking people to go to the podcast and being explicit with the host that that is why you are coming on the podcast. Otherwise, I don't think there's automatically a high conversion rate. People who listen to podcasts probably listen to more than one podcast. So I do think that there is a fair amount of transference when you're on other podcasts. And it makes you a better podcaster to be on other well-run podcasts. So you can take notes on process, how they prep you, what technology they use, what did they do or not do that you could adapt or not adapt? What are you doing that you might want to discard? So there is an educational part also to being on other podcasts

• 2:02:03Tim Ferriss?

  that you might not get from pursuing growth through other channels. I think that newsletters are also very powerful. Email and newsletters, they're powerful for everything because they are one link, click away from whatever the desired action is. So those would be two that come to mind. And there are other ways to increase downloads and subscribers. Certainly, big names don't hurt, but it's one thing to get somebody to your podcast. It's another to have them stick around and be an active listener. So if you get a celebrity on and they are mediocre at best,

• 2:02:47Tim Ferriss?

  is someone going to listen to a second episode? I would guess not. They might have an automatic download, but what is it that you actually care about? The download number or the number of active listeners? I care about the number of active listeners for a lot of reasons. Hard to confirm what the active listenership is, but big names definitely help, right? The Arnold Schwarzenegger episode and the amount of promotion that I then did behind it. Right? So I do use paid acquisition, advertising, things of this type.

• 2:03:18Tim Ferriss?

  Having a name to really put a lot of the machine behind and muscle behind, which could be as simple as a basic campaign on your platform of choice. That doesn't necessitate having a blog and so on like I do. I think that is certainly helpful, but it's a temptation that needs to be tempered because you could spend all your time chasing big names. And I think it's a fool's errand, as I mentioned earlier. Certainly video, I think YouTube, TikTok to some extent, certainly. Although I think Andrew Chan has written some very interesting pieces about TikTok

• 2:03:58Tim Ferriss?

  and its effects on virality and some perhaps unintended or unknown consequences of sudden influx. So people can Google that and find it. YouTube can be extremely helpful and I've seen that with many podcasts now. It's not just limited to Joe Rogan. You have many examples. I mean, Jordan Peterson would be another example. There are probably thousands of examples, but I could certainly think of a dozen offhand who use video very, very well. Those are a few and PR. PR, if you want to practice your chops with getting out in other types of media outside of podcasting, then knock yourself out. You could do that as well.

• 2:04:42Speaker 02

  When you said video, I noticed you have two kinds of podcast videos on your YouTube channel. You've got the static image of the cover art and the guest and just playing the audio and then the actual interview. Are both of those effective or do you really think the real boost comes when you have video content?

• 2:05:01Tim Ferriss?

  The real boost comes from video content for sure. Yeah, the static images are placeholders from audio only interviews.

• 2:05:09Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:05:09Tim Ferriss?

  So to put them on YouTube, we choose a cover page of some type and that is what people see. But for sure, actual video moving images makes the biggest difference. And I will say now that I suspect a lot of people are going to be very disappointed with my answers on growth here. And I will say, and this is such an old man thing to say, but I'll say it anyway. There is no magic bullet for growth and the tools change. So I would suggest.

• 2:05:45Tim Ferriss?

  Getting a book like The 22 Immutable Laws of Marketing, reading a short chapter called The Law of Category. I believe I put an updated slash edited version of that in either Tools of Titans or Tribe of Mentors, because I think it's that valuable. Read The Law of Category. Read 1,000 True Fans by Kevin Kelly, which you can find on KK.org. These will give you principles, adaptable principles, that will allow you to build a unique position in the minds of people who will become diehard evangelists. If you do that, which takes consistency over time, and it takes focus more than anything else,

• 2:06:27Tim Ferriss?

  a lot of the other dominos will tip over without any additional effort. But if instead of learning how to draw, as an analogy, you're focused on whether you should use a ballpoint pen, or a fountain pen, or pastels, or crayons, or watercolors, meaning the different technologies and tools. Clubhouse versus TikTok versus Instagram versus, oh, Vine. Remember that? Oops. Uh-oh. If your promotional engine was based on that, uh-oh. Facebook business pages? Oh, yeah. You're gonna need to boost to reach your audience now. Sorry about that. There's too much fragility in a tactics or tools-based approach.

• 2:07:11Tim Ferriss?

  So I think the principles are most important. But I recognize also that perhaps I am just too far from the nascent years in which I built my blog following to provide a good answer. I will say, though, that I built a very, very, very, very popular blog when practically no one knew who the hell I was. And I did that by writing posts that I hoped 10% of my then very small audience would love. I did not write posts that I wanted 100% of my audience to like. And I do the same thing with podcasting. I think it works really well. So I do not expect my entire audience to love any episode.

• 2:07:54Tim Ferriss?

  And if I tried to do that, I think I would shoot myself in the foot. I expect that my active audience will be in a rotation in every...

• 2:08:04Tim Ferriss?

  Fourth or fifth, or maybe 10th episode, they will love so much that they will send it to 10 of their friends. That is how I think about it. And I believe, at least so far, it has been extremely, extremely effective.

• 2:08:17Speaker 02

  One of the pieces of feedback someone gave me on my show was that not every episode is relevant to them. I did an episode where I interviewed a professional car buyer and they were like, I don't have a car. So this episode's pointless. They're like, maybe you should change the show so that everything's always relevant to everyone. And my answer was, I don't know, I'm going to buy a car. I wanted to talk to someone that professionally does this and that's super interesting to me. So just skip it and go to the next one. Do you feel similarly? You said, you know, one in five to 10 people love that episode. Do you care? Or, or do you think they're listening to the other five to nine episodes?

• 2:08:53Tim Ferriss?

  I don't care. I literally spend zero time thinking about it because, and this, this might sound strange, but for me to be, for me to have fun, for this to be a joyful experience that I look forward to, the podcast needs to have a certain essence, a certain pull for me, and it has to have a certain dosage. So I have a very infrequent podcast. I do it on average four times per month, or I publish four long form episodes per month. We didn't really talk about recording cadence, which we could talk about. But on average,

• 2:09:35Tim Ferriss?

  I publish four long form interviews per month. At one point, it was six episodes. And then I noticed a few months into doing that, I was starting to drag my feet a little bit. And it began to feel like a job, like an obligation. And I noted that quickly, thankfully. And I said, this is no good. If I keep this up, I'm going to stop doing the podcast.

• 2:10:00Tim Ferriss?

  Or I'm just going to be unhappy doing it, in which case, what the fuck am I doing? Because I don't need to do it. And I then ratcheted back the frequency of the podcast to the point where it felt good. There's a dosage question, i.e. frequency. There's also an essence pull question. So for me, I have to follow my own interest and to be of a good steward of my own self-care, but to also be of greatest service to the people who are listening, I need to keep doing this, or at least I hope to keep doing it. Maybe I don't need to, but I would like to keep doing this and to be able to grow over time and share those lessons.

• 2:10:41Tim Ferriss?

  The only way I'm going to do that is if I am drawn to continue doing this because I enjoy it. So if I decide to do an episode with a violin appraiser and it gets 10 listeners, I don't fucking care at all. As long as I enjoy the episode, I do not care. And I will say that over time, that not caring is the ultimate form of caring, because you can cultivate an audience who is interested in stepping into weird, strange corners of the world, into interests and professions and lives they perhaps otherwise would have ignored or avoided.

• 2:11:26Tim Ferriss?

  So your audience will also change in how they relate to you over time. And at least in my experience, they, I hope, have realized that sometimes it is the episode they least would have expected to want to listen to, that they end up liking the most of perhaps the last 20 episodes I've done. So I think my listeners are more and more willing to give me the benefit of the doubt and try something strange.

• 2:11:58Speaker 02

  Yeah, I got some feedback from Joe Saul Sehi, who runs a podcast called Stacking Benjamins, which is a funny, like, kind of different style podcast. But he said, "The interesting thing you have to realize with guests is someone might listen to the episode for the guest, but at the end of the day, they're subscribing and coming back for you." And so the nature of interviews, though, often is, we're trying to highlight the guest and hear their stories, which inherently, if done well, is them talking more than you. You mentioned earlier, if it's a bad guest, it might be you talking much more than them. How do you make sure you interject enough of Tim into the podcast that new listeners

• 2:12:39Speaker 02

  and recurring listeners get that when the focus of each episode is always on someone else?

• 2:12:45Tim Ferriss?

  That is a really good question, and the answer is, I don't think about it at all. But there are some times when I will interject, and it has a strategic purpose or a practical purpose. There are interviews where I basically don't talk at all. And if someone is just, you know, a woman or a man possessed, and they are in flow, I will let them riff. It'll just be an audiobook of that person for an hour, two hours. You

• 2:13:21Tim Ferriss?

  can listen to Tim Ferriss and Balaji as an example of that. The four-hour, every-topic-under-the-sun-covered podcast, which was quite an experience to be on the receiving end of, also, great episode, very unusual, and one of the best-performing podcasts probably of the last year for me, which is saying a lot. So if people look up my name, or just go to tim.blog and search Balaji, B-A-L-A-J-I, yeah, put in a mouthguard and drink up a few cups of coffee and prepare yourself for the onslaught. It's quite something. But-

• 2:14:02Tim Ferriss?

  I will interject in a few instances. One is where I know I'm asking a question, or I suspect I'm asking a question the guest is going to have trouble answering unless they have some time to think about it. So, for instance, if I ask them, "What is one of the best investments you've ever made?" Which, by the way, is better than "What's the best investment you've ever made?" In the same way that "What is one of the books you have gifted the most for other people" is better than "What's the best book you've ever read?" The search function is a lot harder. It's going to take them much longer to try to come up with a single answer, and they

• 2:14:46Tim Ferriss?

  will generally default to recency. They'll come up with something that happened recent, so you don't get the best answers. If I ask someone, for instance, "What is one of the best investments you've ever made?" And then I might buy them time by giving some examples. I'll say, "Let me give you a few examples and give you a second to think about it." It could be an investment of money, like so-and-so, say Warren Buffett, who invested in Dale Carnegie speaking classes for public speaking, and he always cites that as his best-ever investment, because it has multiplied and magnified his ability to do everything else. It has been a supercharger for all of his other skills and talents.

• 2:15:27Tim Ferriss?

  It could be buying an entrance ticket to a competition that allowed you to prove yourself that then led to X. It could be an investment of energy, it could be anything. Okay, I just gave everyone listening and you 45 to 60 seconds to think about an answer, as opposed to off-the-cuff coming up with something as quickly as possible. Fortunately, you can take that approach, or if you're not recording live, you can just say, "Take your time." We're not recording this live. You can take 30 seconds in silence to think about it.

• 2:16:08Tim Ferriss?

  And then we can talk, but that feels strange to a lot of people, even though you can do that from a production standpoint, sitting in a conversation in silence, waiting for a minute for someone to answer feels unnatural and weird. So I will interject in a case like that. Very frequently when I speak up, it is to buy time for the interviewee and to give them a few examples to act as like auxiliary search functions in their own brains. They can come up with the best possible answer.

• 2:16:43Speaker 02

  Yeah, I was thinking the whole time about my, my best investment.

• 2:16:47Tim Ferriss?

  Well, what is one of your best investments?

• 2:16:50Speaker 02

  Well, it's funny. When I moved out to the Bay area, I didn't know anyone and I had recently been laid off. And so I didn't have any money, but I invested in a membership at the climbing gym down the street. And at the time I thought this is climbing gyms are not cheap gyms. There's cheaper gyms, but through the climbing gym, I met a guy named Daniel Burka, who was at D. Through Daniel, I met Kevin, through Kevin. I was like, it's literally probably the investment that ended up building out my entire network, including being here. But at the time it seemed, you know, it was like 100, 120 bucks a month. It seemed crazy, but.

• 2:17:22Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah. Yeah, that's amazing. Was that Mission Cliffs? Or where were you?

• 2:17:25Speaker 02

  It was Mission Cliffs.

• 2:17:27Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah. Yeah, it's a great gym. I remember Mission Cliffs back in, back in the day. So that's a fun question to ask. If I ask someone about favorite failures, just the phrasing of the question is very confusing for a lot of people. So then I'll give them an example. And the other time that I'll chime in is if the interview is drowning in boredom.

• 2:17:52Tim Ferriss?

  As a rescue attempt.

• 2:17:54Speaker 02

  So that's a lot about, about Tim. So I want to talk a little bit about the transition. Early Tim was really just the four hour guy, right? You had three books in a row where that was the theme. Someone told me once, they said, Hey, you know, your cover art for an episode of podcasts, everything, nothing has anything about you on it. So I took a similar. Early on approach where this story of the show is all about what the show's about, all the hacks. It's not about me at all. And people are like, well, who are you? And you made a transition. Now your podcast is, you know, the Tim Ferriss Show. It's nothing to do with four hour. I get the sense that you're trying to run away from being the four hour guy. But how have you thought about that transition and making it?

• 2:18:35Speaker 02

  And making a brand that is really about you instead of something else?

• 2:18:42Tim Ferriss?

  I'm gonna tackle this from oblique angle and I'll couch it under the umbrella of identity diversification and also optionality. So flashing back to the four hour work week. Four hour work week was this huge unexpected hit that stayed on the New York Times list for four to five years straight every week. And it created an abundance of inbound opportunity. Almost all the requests were expectedly related to the four hour work week. So I was the four hour work week guy. We want you to give a talk on the principles of the four

• 2:19:27Tim Ferriss?

  hour work week. You want me to do consulting to help us improve efficiency and per hour yield within this organization. We want you to do this workshop. We want you to license the name so we can develop A, B, C, D, and E. We want to option it for a movie, which is almost always a dead end, by the way, if people are wondering. We want to talk to you about a musical. We want to do this. We want to do that. Most of those things all came to zero. But all of the external pressures were to milk that for everything that it was worth. In other words, I would write The Four Hour Work Week, Volume Two, or I would write The Three Hour

• 2:20:12Tim Ferriss?

  Work Week. I would continue to beat that drum until I had shaggy gray eyebrows and could bang the drum no more. That was gonna be me. And I saw many authors around me who I met on the speaking circuit early on when I did that. I no longer, and for many years have done, no paid speaking, which was a categorical decision and policy that was one of those decisions that removes a thousand decisions for many reasons we could talk about. The short answer is, I was repeating myself. And when you repeat yourself, this

• 2:20:54Tim Ferriss?

  is relevant to my point. When you repeat the same messages, as my friend Josh Waits can point out to me, you begin to calcify your thinking. And you're also repeating it because you are being paid for this perishable product, which is speaking to audiences over and over again about the same thing. And I've recognized I did not want to be many of the people I met who had been milking the same thing for a very long time. They didn't seem particularly happy about it. They didn't seem energized by it. They seemed drained. And they seemed to feel trapped, to me. Which is why, given the success of

• 2:21:38Tim Ferriss?

  the book, I decided to maintain, preserve the brand recognition of Four Hour, but move it into physical performance with The Four Hour Body. Because I recognized I might never have this chance again to step out, to have license to go to a completely different section of the bookstore, completely different subject matter.

• 2:22:01Tim Ferriss?

  But I could always go back to the four hour work week. So I could always return to that comfortable, familiar, well-worn path of these principles outlined in the four hour work week. So this is, I think, an important part of the backstory. So I decided to go to Four Hour Body. Four Hour Body does extremely well. Four Hour Body hits number one New York Times, still sells extremely well. And that then bought me the license to write The Four Hour Chef. Where I'm taking these principles, which also come up in your podcast a fair amount with Andy Ratcliffe recently of Wealthfront, the 80/20 principle.

• 2:22:39Tim Ferriss?

  So Pareto's Law and many different principles that you could apply to deconstructing entrepreneurship and testing assumptions, apply equally to physical performance. They apply equally to accelerated learning, language acquisition, cooking, doesn't matter. So now I had proven to the people who pay me, at least upfront, the publishers, and also proven to my audience that what was interesting was the adventures and the principles, not any specific subject matter. It's hard for me to overstate how important that is. I was no longer trapped in one section of the bookstore. I could write about anything I wanted. Now I had license to do that.

• 2:23:24Tim Ferriss?

  Okay. The Four Hour Chef almost killed me. It was incredibly complex, extremely difficult project. It was the first major acquisition by Amazon Publishing when they were really stepping into publishing in a big way. The entire publishing world freaked out. Barnes and Noble wouldn't carry the book. I mean, it was exciting and also a huge mess on many levels. And each book launch...

• 2:23:51Tim Ferriss?

  I would talk to bestselling authors who had launched in the preceding, say, 12 months. And I would ask them which channels, tools, and outlets did less than they expected, or were waning in importance and impact, and which did more than they expected and seemed to be in assent. So for the Four Hour Work Week, blogs were neglected largely. I mean, blogs were incredibly powerful and neglected. That's where I focused. With the Four Hour Body, I asked the same questions and I explored a bunch of different channels. For the Four Hour Chef, the medium and the tool, the channel that was most

• 2:24:33Tim Ferriss?

  undervalued but most impactful was podcasting. So I focused on podcasting for the launch of the Four Hour Chef, and these podcasts had incredible impact, much more impact than huge television shows. And in the process of doing that, I really realized how much I enjoyed the long-form conversations where you could be yourself, you could drop an F-bomb if need be, or if that was your penchant for just speaking casually and comfortably, versus, say, being on morning television, which can have some impact, but seem to have less and less of an impact, where someone is staring over your shoulder at a teleprompter

• 2:25:14Tim Ferriss?

  and you literally have 30 seconds to talk after spending like an hour waiting in the green room after having your face spray painted with makeup and you woke up at 5:00 a.m. to get there. It's not that enjoyable an experience. So I saw the impact. I enjoyed the podcasting and decided then at that point, I'm gonna take a big break from books. Not sure I'm ever gonna write another book. But in the meantime, I'd like to experiment with this podcasting format and see what it's like to be in the director's seat, so to speak. And the only reason the podcast ended up with the Tim Ferriss Show is the name is I couldn't come up with a name and Kevin called it Tim Tim Talk Talk in the first

• 2:25:57Tim Ferriss?

  episode, which long-term listeners still joke about and I still joke, Kevin and I still joke about, but came up with all of these different names for it. And the fact of the matter was, at that time, there were only two things that had a lot of brand recognition. The four-hour shtick, which I didn't want to extend, I wanted to retire that jersey, or my name. And that is the reason that I decided to use the name. But if you're just starting a podcast and you don't have any name recognition, I don't think that the logic automatically follows that you should use your name. Now, it's been a wonderful

• 2:26:41Tim Ferriss?

  trip. I will say that there are drawbacks to launching a podcast with your name in the same way that there are drawbacks to founding a company that can only be run by you. As we've seen in the news, there are a lot of big deals by podcast standards happening at the moment. There is a land grab for talent and big shows and audience. So you have Joe Rogan, purportedly $100 million deal. I actually think, if I had to guess, I don't know this, but I would suspect it is substantially larger than that over time with earnouts and so on, and performance bonuses. I would guess it's much larger than that. I think there was somewhere between 60 and $100 million deal for Dax Shepard, something like a $60

• 2:27:26Tim Ferriss?

  million deal for Call Her Daddy. I think that's a three-year deal. You will notice that the deal terms appear to be getting more and more onerous. Now, those are not all comparable deals. Those are different people, different properties and so on. But I believe as part of the deal with Call Her Daddy, that Spotify has a first look or right of first refusal or automatic ownership of future properties and creations, not just current. Joe Rogan has a licensing deal.

• 2:28:01Tim Ferriss?

  Which is very different from an IP purchase agreement. But this is all to say that if I had, let's just say, who knows, the four hour podcast. If I'd called it the four hour podcast and I owned that trademark and slowly brought in other hosts or co-hosts to help, one could foresee an option of building that up into a property with many different personalities and selling that property, after which I, as the initial builder of that brand, could be free and clear to go on and do other things.

• 2:28:42Tim Ferriss?

  It is not possible to do that simply with a podcast called The Tim Ferriss Show. Yeah, so there are drawbacks, but net-net, that's the story of how I got there. And I don't think about building a personal brand, to be clear.

• 2:28:57Tim Ferriss?

  You have a personal brand already. Everyone has a personal brand. Guess what your personal brand is? Your personal brand is what your closest friends and family and coworkers think of you. That's it. What do they associate you with, right? If they had to pull four or five adjectives out of the air, how would they describe you? Whatever comes to mind, most naturally, when people think about you, that is your personal brand. So we all already have a personal brand. If you want to create a personal facade or a stage persona, I'm not saying you, Chris, but just in general, you can do that, but you should be very careful of that. And I remember I was told, and I'm paraphrasing here, but by Andrew Zimmern, who is an amazing

• 2:29:40Tim Ferriss?

  television host, who is very smart and very, very thoughtful, who's been on the podcast. His story is incredible. I mean, he was, I think, sleeping on a mattress under an overpass at one point as an addict and now is who he is. It's a really remarkable story. But when he was just getting started in television, and he and I spoke when I was doing some television not too long ago, he had some choices to make in that first episode about who he wanted to be and how did he want to deliver his lines? Were they going to incorporate any particular types of shticks? Were they going to be funny? Were they going to make fun of certain things? Were they going to use the cheesy jokes? And

• 2:30:26Tim Ferriss?

  He made a lot of decisions early on that ended up being critical to the future of his career because he said, in effect, be very careful of who you are in episode one, because that's who you have to be for the rest of the time you're on television. And I think that's true podcasting. So be really careful about what you pretend to be, because you will have to maintain that and you may actually become whatever you pretend to be. So I don't, I don't think a whole lot about personal brand, although I do think about what I want to stand for. And if I were really true to myself, like if I were really true to myself, what would I do? Who would I interview? If I were just doing this for me, what would

• 2:31:09Tim Ferriss?

  I do? And I always get the best results when I do that. When I try to predict the movement of the masses of some potential audience, like this flock of birds, where I'm trying to guess which direction they're going to fly, it never turns out well, for me especially. It's not fun and it's not particularly effective.

• 2:31:32Speaker 02

  One of the things you mentioned in that story was about these podcasts getting these licensing deals or different things. A common thing that I know happens with podcasts, especially as they start to gain traction, and has happened to me in the last couple of weeks, is some podcast network will reach out and say, hey, do you want to join our network? Do you want to be an iHeartRadio podcast? Do you want to? And you usually get to keep all your IP, but they basically say, hey, we'll sell ads, we'll keep 50%, we'll help you grow your show, we'll do all this stuff. You don't have to do, think about it, we'll just give you the money we make. And it seems, to your point about monetization, don't spend any time on it, spend time honing your craft, spend time making a good show. Is that a

• 2:32:12Speaker 02

  good way to kind of take all of that off your plate from thinking about it? Would you encourage people to take those calls because they don't result in having to spend time selling ads, though you lose upside for whatever term that deal is?

• 2:32:28Tim Ferriss?

  This is a worthwhile topic to explore. So clearly, or maybe it's not clear, but I do not work with a network or a partner of that type. A lot of people do. A lot of people do. And

• 2:32:42Tim Ferriss?

  I think it depends a lot on what you are trying to accomplish. So a question everyone should ask is, three years from now, your podcast is successful. What does that mean to you? What does it look like exactly? What does a month in your life look like with respect to the podcast? It's successful. What does that mean? What does it look like? So it depends on that. It also depends on your competencies, your willingness to hire or work with contractors or commissioned salespeople to sell ads or sponsorships or find sponsors, if that is something that you want to do. Is it worthwhile to take the calls? It's always worthwhile to take the calls. Just don't promise anything. Yeah, definitely take the calls.

• 2:33:27Tim Ferriss?

  And the question that I would ask myself in preparation for those calls is, how could I learn as much as possible from this call so that if, even if I never end up talking to this person again, I get a lot out of this? Can you ask about best practices of other podcasts? Can you ask about common mistakes that highly competent but novice or new to the game podcasters make in their experience? Can you ask them or indicate as a policy, when you have these types of conversations, you always ask, if I couldn't work with you, who would you recommend I work with? Can you start to get a better understanding of the ecosystem? Can you ask them about other players in the system?

• 2:34:11Tim Ferriss?

  In other words, further your education and give yourself more and more of an informational advantage, even if you never do a deal with these people. If you're willing to prepare in that way, come up with good questions, absolutely take the call. If you're just going to fly off the cuff and see what happens, maybe it's still worth taking the call, although you won't get as much out of it. But yes, it's absolutely worth taking the call and listening to their value proposition. There are a number of different ways that you can sell ads. You can publish on a platform that inserts ads automatically. And there are platforms, I believe Spotify has this ability, there are platforms that

• 2:34:56Tim Ferriss?

  can do this. There are also hosting companies, I believe, that will use dynamic ad insertion to fill ad inventory for you. Your Revenue from that, your income from that, your CPM, the cost per thousand downloads that you get paid, will be quite low for that, generally speaking. You can work with a network.

• 2:35:23Tim Ferriss?

  And that network may have people in-house, but the network could be a network, just like you and I back in the day could print a business card, which is like Kristin Associates.

• 2:35:35Tim Ferriss?

  And in fact, all they're doing is partnering with yet another company. And then they're splitting the commission or the vig between them. So that's another thing that you would want to ask, although I would ask it at the end of the conversation in case it pisses them off. Are these full-time employees of yours? Do you partner with other companies? Do you subcontract out pieces of this? To get an idea of how things are architected. So you could partner with a network. And if they say, "We will help grow your show", I would find out exactly how they do that. Gimlet, of course, does a good job of this, as do many of the NPR shows, because they cross-promote

• 2:36:18Tim Ferriss?

  new shows on existing properties. If they're going to do that, find out what their reach is. Find out if that's going to be for all geographies, or is it going to be a geo-limited? Is it time-limited? Blah, blah, blah, blah. All the specifics, right? That's probably for a second conversation. It's not that important compared to other questions you could ask. That's a network. You could work with companies who sell ads. That's it. That's all they do. They're not a network, but they will put sponsors in front of you and put your show in front of sponsors. And there are many, many different agencies that do this, just like ad agencies for other types of media.

• 2:37:02Tim Ferriss?

  And the economics will look slightly different, depending on who you talk to, and they'll be different probably from the networks. Then there are very, very small shops with maybe a handful of people, and they handle ads for larger shows. So I will not mention them by name just because I don't want them to get deluged. But if you're diligent, you can figure it out. Joe Rogan, Dax, This American Life, all work with the same small outfit.

• 2:37:28Tim Ferriss?

  Who only work with a handful of premium properties and they sell ads for those outlets. Then you can have a contractor or hire someone full-time, as I did, to handle all of your ad inventory. I am comfortable as an operator. I'm very, very, very, very comfortable with sales. And I'm very, very comfortable with waiting until, in this case, my podcast had enough of an audience and not just a large audience in terms of size, but a powerful audience in terms of influence, such that I would be able to say no very easily and still have takers. Does that make sense?

• 2:38:14Tim Ferriss?

  And then to set terms like no payment terms, you need to pay upfront so that we can keep our process extremely, extremely simple. And in that case, I looked at it and I was like, okay, let's just take, I mean, you can do some back of the napkin stuff, but it's like, all right, if I won't use Joe as an example, I'll let people try to figure that out on their own. But for him to do a deal of several years at $100 million, that would have to be a multiple of what he was making. He was making, I am sure, a lot. But let's say that you get to the point where you are making a small fraction of that and you make $1 million in total ad revenue,

• 2:38:58Tim Ferriss?

  which, assuming you don't have much staff, is almost pure profit.

• 2:39:04Tim Ferriss?

  If you outsource your ad sales, I would say you should expect generally that at least 30% of that is going to go away.

• 2:39:15Tim Ferriss?

  Okay, so I'm no mathematician, but that is more than $300,000. So then the question is, for less than $300,000, could you hire someone who is absolutely excellent to do it for you? And this is just as critical, are you willing to have staff manage?

• 2:39:40Tim Ferriss?

  Do the calls, do the data analytics and so on, everything necessary to ensure that those operations are extremely smooth. And the answer for a lot of people is no. Even if you have the money, they would rather spend the $300,000 plus in this case. Now, keep in mind, you know, if you're making 10 million a year, then now we're talking 3 million plus, it can be very, very expensive, but it's worth it for a lot of people. For me, I decided I had enough entrepreneurial experience. I am comfortable enough with operations and process and management that I am totally

• 2:40:25Tim Ferriss?

  happy to hire someone full-time to handle that for me. So that is what I decided.

• 2:40:31Speaker 02

  Okay. So we've hit a lot of things.

• 2:40:33Tim Ferriss?

  We have.

• 2:40:34Speaker 02

  Here's a great question about a question, which is if you're interviewing someone about a topic and you realize well past the point that you've talked about something, that there's a great follow-up, but you're now, you know, three turns down on a different highway. Do you ask it still? And if you do, do you try to edit it back so it fits? Or do you just save it for next time?

• 2:40:58Tim Ferriss?

  I've done all of the above. So if we're down this road and there's something I really want to ask, you have many, many options. For me, one option would be you write down on a piece of paper, this is why I like to have notes. I take a lot of notes as I'm writing on things that I want to come back to also, or things that I want to ensure I don't forget. So I'll take that, I'll circle it on a piece of paper and I'll say, if you don't mind, I want to interrupt for just a second. This is going to be a complete left turn. And for all my listeners, sorry, that's just how my mind works. I really want to just put a bookmark in this. So please remember where you are. I'm going to write it down. I want to ask you about X. And then we're going to come back to Y and Z. And so you can do that.

• 2:41:41Speaker 02

  You could take a note of it and then use a teaser at the end of the episode and say,

• 2:41:48Tim Ferriss?

  We could easily keep talking for many hours. We might have to do a round two if you'd be open to it and simply circle that in highlighter, R2, like I do. I mean, there are different ways to approach this and save it for next time. You could try to edit and splice somewhere else and kind of Franken clip your way into some type of narrative. That tends to be, or can be very clumsy and labor intensive. So I tend not to do that.

• 2:42:16Speaker 02

  Well, then I'll just throw it out here because it's about a guest. One of the things I found, I heard you say that you got a lot of guests by asking people, hey, you are a guest. Are there other interesting people I should have on the show? In recruiting, I've learned that when you go to people and say, hey, are there interesting engineers I should hire? Everyone has nothing. They have to use that search function. But if you go look at their LinkedIn and say, hey, here are four people that you know that I think could be good for this job. If you think any of them are, would you introduce me to them? That works well. Is there a tactic you've used to find guests from your network of either friends or guests that helps them kind of jog the memory to find the people that might be interesting?

• 2:42:58Tim Ferriss?

  No, this is a short answer. I don't have any particular tricks here. I will mention to people, I'll say, I really enjoyed speaking with you. You're excellent at what you do. And this was outstanding. If you ever think of anybody who you think would really enjoy being on the show, who I would also really enjoy speaking to, please let me know. And I just leave it at that. I would say at this point, probably 80% plus of my guests come as referrals from past guests. And it will become easier and easier over time. When you have 15 episodes, it's harder. It's just a smaller sample size. When you have 30, 50,

• 2:43:40Tim Ferriss?

  there is a, there's a nonlinear kind of growth in the connectivity of the map that you're creating, this constellation of guests and the types of people they can reach. So it gets, I would say exponentially easier over time to get referrals. And I will also say, just as a side note,

• 2:44:04Tim Ferriss?

  A question that you can ask to also improve your interviewing and podcasting is one that Adam Grant asked me when he was a guest on the podcast after we stopped recording. And you need to be insistent, but he said, or he asked, rather, what can I do to improve? And I gave him some throwaway answer because it's an uncomfortable question. So I said something like, it was great. It was really fantastic. And it was, he was really, really, really good. And I'm pretty sure he responded with, I appreciate that. I appreciate the kind feedback and I'm not going to let you go until you give me one

• 2:44:48Tim Ferriss?

  thing, just one thing, anything, could be small, that I could do to improve as a guest. And I think he had a habit of, I don't want to say nervous, but laughing a lot after certain questions or answers. And I said, that might be something that you could take a look at. If it was one thing, and I had to pick one thing, you're outstanding. It was absolutely wonderful as is. But if I had to pick one thing, that would probably be it. And he was like, awesome. Great. Thank you so much. And he was stoked.

• 2:45:20Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah. If you want to get that type of feedback, you have to be insistent, I think, because it's uncomfortable. You're putting someone in an uncomfortable position. Right after you've done this thing, you're feeling good, probably to deliver news that you might not like. And so you have to just say, look, I love this stuff. I'm not going to let you go. Just give you one thing, could be anything, tiny thing, something that I could do to improve. And that gets results. And that is my dog barking because I have a delivery coming to the door. So I think we should probably wrap up in a few minutes, since we're almost at three hours. But I know you have prepared more. And so who knows, maybe

• 2:46:02Tim Ferriss?

  there is a round two in our future. But what other? Boxes, do you think we should check?

• 2:46:09Speaker 02

  I have a good kind of wrap up question at least is you launched your show and you said you'd commit to six episodes and I've seen you say you'd reassess then and then after deciding to continue, I saw you say you'd reassess again at 100. What kind of a process do you go through when you reassess? Is it just a gut? Do I want to keep going? Or was there more going on each time you hit that milestone?

• 2:46:34Tim Ferriss?

  It's a pretty simple check in. I think most things can be boiled down to how do you feel when you first wake up? And how easily do you go to sleep? Like, how do different decisions affect that? Certainly true in investing, big time. Like, you could have on paper, the best investment of all time, but if you're waking up anxious and having trouble going to sleep, it's probably not a good investment for you. And this is true for podcasting, too. How do you feel when you look at your calendar and you see that you have a podcast at 10am or 2pm or whenever it is? What happens internally? Is it a whole body? Yes. I mean, how do you feel mentally? How do you feel kind of in your chest? How do you feel in your gut and really paying attention to that? It's a full

• 2:47:18Tim Ferriss?

  body check in for me. Imagine, okay, it's Tuesday, you're tired, and all you want to do is call it quits, but you realize you've got 90 to 120 minutes ahead of you for a podcast. How do you feel? What do you do? What is your self-talk? What does it look like? What has it been? Those are the types of questions that I ask myself. And I want podcasting to be something that nourishes me and refills me, not something that depletes me. And I think many, if not most of my decisions these days with respect to just about anything

• 2:48:03Tim Ferriss?

  are framed in that way.

• 2:48:08Tim Ferriss?

  It's simple, but the implications are pretty far reaching. It has nothing to do with revenue, has nothing to do with how big the names are. It's really, how do I feel when I see it on the calendar? How do I feel when I'm recording? How do I feel when it comes out?

• 2:48:27Tim Ferriss?

  Is it net positive energy or net negative energy? And if it's net positive, yeah, keep feeding the dragon. That's how I feel. And also, you can build in the ability to take breaks. So for instance, to touch on one thing that I dropped a long time ago, which was recording cadence. And by the way, your brain is really incredibly trainable. You get better at doing this as you record more and more podcasts, just like mentally bookmarking things to come back to. Recording cadence, so I will very often, once per quarter, do a content creation week, which includes all of any social needs and all of my podcast needs for the next three months.

• 2:49:08Tim Ferriss?

  And I will record all of them in perhaps one week, Monday to Friday, or I may tag on an extra Monday, Tuesday of the following week, and I will record all, which for me means 12, say, episodes for the next three months. And then if I want to do more episodes, if I feel compelled, if there are things that pop up, like this episode, for instance, I don't need to record this episode. We're recording this early September. I have all of my episodes until probably December covered already. They're done. I don't have to do a damn thing. I can just sit back and chill. But I wanted to record this episode because I get so many questions about podcasts. And I also wanted to answer your questions.

• 2:49:52Tim Ferriss?

  So you can batch recording in that way. I batch any sponsor recording in a similar way so that I'm not doing, by the way, like refreshes, people who want a live read every time, not going to do it. If you have an ad that is working, do you keep using it until it stops working in terms of your sort of return on invested capital, right? Your multiple Whatever it might be. And their answer is, oh, we keep using them. Like, that's exactly what we do. So, once we have a good read, we keep using it. And for that reason, I'll batch recording for sponsors in a similar way. And any review of guests with one person

• 2:50:34Tim Ferriss?

  on my team, we will, no more than once a week, for a very short period of time, maybe five or 10 minutes, review potential guests who have come in typically from past guests, and decide how I feel about them. Doesn't matter how interesting they are, how good they are, what they do. At the end of the day, like, zero to 10, no seven allowed, what's my Stoke level? If it's not eight, nine, or 10, we do not press go. And that is also some of how I systematize the production and the editing and so on, such that the

• 2:51:12Tim Ferriss?

  tasks and the responsibilities of the podcast are not scattered, kind of willy-nilly, all over my calendar, which is very, would be, I think, stressful and ultimately a net negative energetically. So, batching also helps to make things much more fun, much easier, much more streamlined, and much less expensive. And ultimately, coming back to the very beginning, much more sustainable. And for all of those reasons and more, I don't have a set time to check in with myself about the podcast. I batch, and I expect, if you check in with

• 2:51:56Tim Ferriss?

  me five years from now, unless something really strange has happened, I'll probably still be doing the podcast.

• 2:52:01Speaker 02

  But was the batching always there? Or, you know, you only committed to six episodes at the gate. That means in episode seven, you needed to find in those first six episodes of production, how long did it take to get to that batching versus just in time? Like, I need to go set up an interview so that I can release an episode next week?

• 2:52:21Tim Ferriss?

  Well, the batching is as needed. So, batching has some practical utility in the sense that you finish everything in one week as necessary for the next two to three months. But I also get energized by the podcast. So, I will sometimes decide, you know what? I'm not going to batch all of my recording, but I'm going to do one recording per week or every other week because I find that it refills my tank. So it's not a burden to be lightened. It is also something that gives me more fuel for everything else than I'm doing. Therefore, I'm not going to record everything in the batching session, but I will record enough so that I don't feel like I have a gun against my head and,

• 2:53:02Tim Ferriss?

  oh shit, it's Tuesday and I need to put out an episode on Thursday. Fuck, now I need to rejig my whole schedule. That's not an experience I want to have and it's one that I can very easily avoid. So the batching and the systematizing comes, in my experience, later. You gotta throw a lot against the wall and figure out what works and what works for you. And then you can establish policies and rules so that you're making very few decisions instead of a death by a million paper cuts. And I do think that striving for what excites you and striving for what nourishes you goes a really long way. And to come back to a couple of recommendations, the 22 Immutable Laws of Marketing,

• 2:53:47Tim Ferriss?

  the Law of Category, read that chapter. Even if the examples are outdated, read it. Get the older copy, not the For the Internet. Cause I think the For the Internet was written like 98 or 99 and the examples are really funny. But get the older version, Positioning, by the same authors, Riess, R-I-E-S, not Eric, but an older Riess. And Trout, I believe, are the names, as well as 1,000 True Fans by Kevin Kelly at KK.org. Kevin Kelly, honestly, may be the real life most interesting man in the world. And if you want proof of that, you can listen to my first podcast episode with him. Stuart Brand might be also a close contender. I think Kevin would probably say Stuart Brand is the one who wins that title.

• 2:54:31Tim Ferriss?

  But it's a fun game. I encourage everyone to try it. You'll learn a lot about yourself at the very least. Yeah, I definitely have. And with that, my friend, I think we can bring this to a close. We will link to everything in the show notes. All of these various things we've talked about, including the article, the very, very extensive article I wrote in 2016. And the link to the podcast with Rolf Potts. We'll link to all of those things and more in the show notes. But I don't want to omit one very important thing, and that is, To mention Chris's podcast and we didn't get to go into lessons from different guests, which I asked you to prepare. So maybe another time we'll do that. But I've listened to a

• 2:55:14Tim Ferriss?

  couple of episodes, really enjoyed the, I listened to your first and your last. So at least on Overcast, I listened to the first episode, which was with Lee Rowan, which was outstanding, really enjoyed it. Even though I'm not hugely obsessed with points and optimizing on that side, there were a lot of really good points. So I'm going to go refer to the show notes on that. And I listened to Andy Radcliffe, who's incredible, one of the co-founders of Benchmark Capital also, which is one of the most successful venture capital firms of all time. I think their initial fund, I learned this from the podcast, had what 92x returns. It's just bananas. And that's, that's an episode on investing,

• 2:55:57Tim Ferriss?

  as you might imagine. And I'm listening currently to episode six on the psychology of money with Morgan Household and enjoying that quite a lot. So the podcast is good. It's super solid. And I think you're off to the races, man. I don't have tons of critical feedback for you. I think you're doing a good job. And it's really about keeping it interesting for you and staying the course. But what else would you like to say about your podcast and where people can find it?

• 2:56:24Speaker 02

  I would just say, give it a listen and wherever you listen podcasts, which you're obviously doing right now. So just search for all the hacks and reach out if you have feedback and there's topics you want me to explore.

• 2:56:35Tim Ferriss?

  Allthehacks.com. Is that right?

• 2:56:37Speaker 02

  Yep. Allthehacks.com.

• 2:56:39Tim Ferriss?

  Allthehacks.com. And this man knows of what he speaks. Chris is optimizer supreme. And I don't say that lightly. It's, it's kind of mind boggling to me how methodical you are with optimizing so many areas of your life. So this is a person who walks the walk and I've seen it firsthand in many, many areas. So I encourage people to check it out. Allthehacks.com. We'll link to it in the show notes. And it is good to spend time with you, Christopher.

• 2:57:10Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:57:10Tim Ferriss?

  Thank you for, thank you for co-hosting slash hosting this episode.

• 2:57:14Speaker 02

  Yeah, I can now, I guess I can put on my resume, host of the Tim Ferriss Show. You said it had to be you, but here we go.

• 2:57:21Tim Ferriss?

  Tim Tim, Chris Chris, Volume 2. Thanks for tuning in, everybody. Hey, guys. This is Tim again. Just a few more things before you take off. Number one, this is Five Bullet Friday. Do you want to get a short email from me? Would you enjoy getting a short email from me every Friday that provides a little morsel of fun before the weekend? And Five Bullet Friday is a very short email where I share the coolest things I've found or that I've been pondering over the week. That could include favorite new albums that I've discovered. It could include gizmos and gadgets and all sorts of weird shit that I've somehow dug up in the world of the esoteric, as I do.

• 2:58:00Tim Ferriss?

  It could include favorite articles that I've read and that I've shared with my close friends, for instance. And it's very short. It's just a little tiny bite of goodness before you head off for the weekend. So if you want to receive that, check it out. Just go to fourhourworkweek.com. That's fourhourworkweek.com, all spelled out, and just drop in your email, and you will get the very next one. And if you sign up, I hope you enjoy it.

• 2:58:28Tim Ferriss?

  This podcast episode is brought to you by Helix Sleep. Sleep is super important to me. In the last few years, I've come to conclude it is the end-all, be-all, that all good things, good mood, good performance, good everything, seem to stem from good sleep. So I've tried a lot to optimize it. I've tried pills and potions, all sorts of different mattresses, you name it. And for the last few years, I've been sleeping on a Helix Midnight Luxe mattress. I also have one in the guest bedroom, and feedback from friends has always been fantastic. It's something that they comment on. Helix Sleep has a quiz, takes about two minutes to complete, that matches your body type and sleep preferences to the perfect mattress

• 2:59:08Tim Ferriss?

  for you. With Helix, there's a specific mattress for each and every body. That is your body, also your taste. So let's say you sleep on your side in like a super soft bed. No problem. Or if you're a back sleeper who likes a mattress that's as firm as a rock, they've got a mattress for you, too. Helix was selected as the number one best overall mattress pick of 2020 by GQ Magazine, Wired, and ...therapy and many others. Just go to helixsleep.com/tim, take their two-minute sleep quiz and they'll match you to a customized mattress that will give you the best sleep of your life. They have a 10-year warranty and you get to try it out for 100 nights risk-free. They'll even pick it up from you if you don't love it. And now, my dear listeners, Helix is offering up to $200 off of all mattress

• 2:59:52Tim Ferriss?

  orders and two free pillows at helixsleep.com/tim. These are not cheap pillows either, so getting two for free is an upgraded deal. So that's up to $200 off and two free pillows at helixsleep.com/tim. That's H-E-L-I-X, sleep.com/tim for up to $200 off. So, check it out one more time. Helix, H-E-L-I-X, sleep.com/tim. This episode is brought to you by Athletic Greens. I get asked all the time what I would take if I could only take one supplement. The answer is invariably Athletic Greens. I

• 3:00:34Tim Ferriss?

  view it as all-in-one nutritional insurance. I recommended it, in fact, in The Four Hour Body. This is more than 10 years ago, and I did not get paid to do so. With approximately 75 vitamins, minerals, and whole food sourced ingredients, you'd be very hard-pressed to find a more nutrient-dense and comprehensive formula on the market. It has multivitamins, multimineral, greens complex, probiotics and prebiotics for gut health, an immunity formula, digestive enzymes, adaptogens, and much more. I usually take it once or twice a day just to make sure I've covered my bases if I miss anything I'm not aware of. Of course, I focus on nutrient-dense meals to begin with, that's the basis, but Athletic Greens makes it easy to get a lot of nutrition when whole foods aren't readily available.

• 3:01:16Tim Ferriss?

  For travel packets, I always have them in my bag when I'm sipping around. Right now, Athletic Greens is giving my audience a special offer on top of their all-in-one formula, which is a free vitamin D supplement and five free travel packs with your first subscription purchase. Many of us are deficient in vitamin D. I've found that true for myself, which is usually produced in our bodies from sun exposure. So, adding a vitamin D Supplement to your daily routine is a great option for additional immune support. Support your immunity, gut health, and energy by visiting athleticgreens.com/tim. You'll receive up to a year's supply of vitamin D and five free travel packs with your subscription. Again, that's athleticgreens.com/tim.