Never Enough: 7 Ways to Protect Yourself (and Your Kids) From Toxic Pressure

In this episode, award-winning Harvard-educated journalist and researcher Jenny Wallace is here to discuss “toxic achievement” and the toxic pressure that makes you feel that no matter what you do or what level of success you achieve, it will never be enough. You feel toxic pressure at work, and you feel toxic pressure at home. Jenny Wallace, who just completed a major research study with over 6,000 kids and their parents, is here to tell you this unhealthy pressure is trickling down to your kids, who are buckling under the never-ending demands to measure up. Whether you are sick of spending every weekend racing from one sporting event or club team practice to another, or you are tired of the never-ending video calls that keep you working day and night, one thing is clear: something has to give. Your worth is not determined by the things you achieve. Jenny Wallace is here with the research and the findings that say all this pressure is backfiring because all anyone really wants is to feel like they matter. According to her research, there are seven changes you can make that will boost your kids’ confidence and resilience and get you off this hamster wheel that is leading nowhere. If you struggle with work-life balance and feel burned out, the research will empower you to: Learn the one question to ask your kid that shows you love them. Stop working yourself into the ground to prove your worth. Why you are your harshest critic and the simple things you need to do to become your biggest fan. Snip the tie between achievement and self-worth. Unplug yourself from the stress loop of other people and never get rattled again. The 3 things you can do to show people you love that they matter to you. Stop beating yourself up for not having the perfect home or getting A’s on every test, and prioritize what really matters instead. I want you to get off the hamster wheel and stop being obsessed with achieving, having, and winning. You hold the key to helping yourself and others feel like they matter in this world. It’s time to unlock it. Xo, Mel In this episode: 1:00: Not gonna lie; I started freaking out big time after this conversation. 5:30: What exactly is grind culture? 7:40: The opposite of toxic achievement is healthy achievement. 8:30: How did we get sucked into this way of thinking? 10:00: Harvard survey learned powerful information about parents. 14:00: Students who felt this were more likely to be healthy achievers. 17:25: What is social proof and why is that such a big deal? 18:40: Kids who feel they don’t matter will find ways to prove they do. 20:00: Do this when you don’t feel like you matter. 23:10: The one question you can ask to let your kids know they matter. 25:30: 80% of workers have not heard this from their bosses last year. 27:10: Many people don’t express their gratitude for others because of this. 28:00: Here is what to say to your kid when they get a bad grade. 28:30: A mantra to play on repeat with your family. 30:30: Why good enough is perfect. 32:00: The #1 intervention for any kid, and adult, in distress. 33:30: An incredible study of mothers who met to share their struggles. 37:30: How do we parents erode our kids’ self-confidence? 39:00: Keep this phrase in your head to let your kids know they matter. 40:40: How are household chores helpful for kids? 42:00: Say this to your kids to get them to do their chores. 46:00: Jennifer stopped doing this with her kids after reading the research. 48:20: Focus on these values at home instead. 49:05: Forget the grades and focus on what teachers say about your kids. 50:00: The one question to ask teachers at your next conference. 51:00: We all have a responsibility to do this and it will come back to us. Want more resources? Go to my podcast page at https://melrobbins.com/podcast. Disclaimer

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Mel Robbins?

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• 0:43Mel Robbins?

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• 1:28Mel Robbins?

  or maybe you just want to explore a cool beach town this summer, Expedia makes it easy. Flights, hotels, vacation rentals, cars, activities, everything you need in one place. That means no jumping between sites, no hassle. And when you bundle, you can save up to 30% with everything you need in one app. Sign in to save savings vary. Expedia, the one place you go to go places. Hey, it's your friend Mel and welcome to the Mel Robbins Podcast.

• 1:57Mel Robbins?

  All right, today I have to talk to you about something that happened this weekend, and I had no idea that I was internally freaking out about this topic. But I know you're going to relate to it. Here's what happened. So I'm in the middle of the fall of my son's senior year of high school. So we are in the thick of it with college applications, right? And one of the things that I have loved about living in southern Vermont is that nobody really talks about it. So I haven't really felt the pressure cooker that the college application process can be. But I was out and about, and I bumped into a woman that I know, and we were just chit-chatting, and all of a sudden, the question came up.

• 2:39Mel Robbins?

  "So, does Oak know where he's applying to college?" And I said, "Yeah, actually, he's figured it out. There are four schools he's going to apply to, and I think personally, he'd be super happy at two of them in particular." She said, "Does he have a first choice?" And I said, "As a matter of fact, he does. He's going to apply early decision to this particular school." And she paused and said, "Oh." And I was like, "Yeah, I know, it's a really competitive school, but he does have the grades, and he's right in the range of the kind of student that they accept. But these days, everything is so competitive that you just never know." And she said, "Well, we thought that too about our son.

• 3:22Mel Robbins?

  He applied ED, and he ended up not getting in. They took two other people from the school, but they didn't take him." There was something about the way that her tone of voice was, that my heart went "shurik! Pff!" And I don't know what happened. I became that freak. I became that psycho parent. There was something in me that was like, "Huh? What do you mean? What do you mean? You mean, he's not going to get in? You mean, he's within range, and they're going to take somebody else?" And I became that parent that all of a sudden started to own their kids' choices and success and their outcomes.

• 4:04Mel Robbins?

  And I came racing home, and I was like, "Oak, Oak, have you written your college essay? How is the process going? Can I take a read of it? Can I see it?" And he's like... Yes, you can read it. And he sent it to me, first draft. I'll be honest, not that great. It made my heart go "really?" even more. And then I go to say to him, uh, uh, uh, is this done? I mean, this is not what you're submitting. I mean, this doesn't even sound like you. And he's like, Mom, could you back off? I'm working with it at the counselors at school. This is the first draft. Can you get off my back? It's all we talk about at school. Would you ba ba ba ba ba ba ba ba ba? So whether you're in the college application process or not, you have experienced it yourself or with somebody that you love.

• 4:50Mel Robbins?

  And you know there is something psycho weird about how competitive things have gotten? I mean, I always joke that when I applied to college back in 1985, if I were applying today, I would never get in because of how crazy competitive things have gotten. And I have prided myself on not getting sucked into this. I have meant it when I have told you that I do not put the bumper stickers on my cars, that their achievements are not a reflection of my parenting, that my kids need to own the process. They will end up where they're meant to end up, that they will get the lessons they need. They will figure it out. I believe that. But there was something about somebody going, "Oh, well, that didn't happen to ours."

• 5:35Mel Robbins?

  That made me go "wah, wah, wah, wah." And I went crazy for about 48 hours. Well, thankfully, I bumped into another friend of mine. Shout out to Paige. And Paige and I were talking, and she was saying that she was reading this incredible book. And I was like, really? What is the name of the book? And she's like, yeah, it's so incredible. It's called Never Enough. And you've got to get this woman on your podcast. And I'm like, what's it about? And she said the entire book is about something called grind culture and the way that we are prioritizing what this author calls toxic achievement, how parents have gotten super sucked into it, how we've gotten super sucked into it. I said, Paige, say no more. You are like an angel from the heavens

• 6:20Mel Robbins?

  who is hitting me with a sledgehammer, saying, Mel Robbins, you got to talk about this pressure we are all feeling. And so you know what I'm going to do? I reached right out to Jenny Wallace. That's right. She has written a book called Never Enough. Jenny Wallace, an award-winning Harvard-educated journalist from 60 Minutes. She is also a Journalism Fellow at the Center for Parent and Teen Communications at the Children's Hospital of Philadelphia. And I got a copy of this book, Never Enough. I dug into it, and I just want you to get ready. Because we're not only going to talk about how you break free from the grind culture, and how you can get your life, and your peace of mind, and your control back.

• 7:03Mel Robbins?

  We're going to talk about a deeper topic. Because she says that the way that you break free from grind culture and toxic achievement is to actually focus on something else, the thing that you and I are both seeking. And we're going to explain what that is in this conversation. So please, help me welcome Jenny Wallace to the Mel Robbins Podcast.

• 7:24Speaker 01

  Thank you so much for having me.

• 7:26Mel Robbins?

  Jenny, thanks so much for jumping on so quickly with me. And I just really want to jump into it. You have this term that you call the grind culture. And I think, even though we don't know what the definition is, we all feel that we're in the thick of it. It's this stress and this pressure to do more, all the time. And that when you're not doing more, it's never enough. So no matter how successful you are, it's never enough. No matter what school you get into, it's never enough. And so I want to start off with the terms that you use in your research. What is the grind culture?

• 7:59Speaker 01

  Grind culture, to me, is a set of messages that tell us we are only as good as our productivity, our performance, what we make, the grades we get, the college we get into. So it is, your worth is contingent upon your performance.

• 8:18Mel Robbins?

  That makes a lot of sense. And I think we all understand what that is. Because we all feel this, like, vice on our heads right now. But you also use this term in your research, toxic achievement. What exactly is toxic achievement?

• 8:33Speaker 01

  Toxic achievement is, you know, running for the next goal because you feel like you are not worthy until you hit that next goal.

• 8:41Mel Robbins?

  Like you gotta get the good grades, you gotta be on the winning sports team, you gotta make the team, you gotta like be at the best school, you gotta be in the AP classes, you gotta do great on the SATs, like this constant, I almost said it, grind culture that gets created by the parents putting the emphasis on the achievement. I worry about our kids because I don't feel like, I felt that pressure when I was their age, and I know a lot of you are worried about either your kids, or your nieces and nephews, or your grandchildren, or you've felt this pressure, and even though you're through college, you feel this pressure to climb the ladder, you feel this pressure compared to what your friends are doing, you feel this pressure because you're not making the money your friends and finance are making.

• 9:25Mel Robbins?

  So if that's toxic achievement, what is healthy achievement?

• 9:28Speaker 01

  Healthy achievement is recognizing your strengths, recognizing that you need other people to reach for these high goals, and if you miss it, if you miss a goal, to not feel as though it's an indictment against your worth.

• 9:43Mel Robbins?

  That makes a lot of sense. And so here's how I want to handle this, because your work is primarily focused, Jenny, on the toxic achievement and grind culture aimed at children, and teenagers, and young adults, and how it's impacting their mental health, and how it's backfiring and not working, but it relates to all of us. And so here's what we're gonna do in this conversation. Number one, I want you to unpack your research for us, okay? And then what I want to do is I want to go to the deeper conversation that relates to all of us, which is the root cause of toxic achievement. We can all feel it, it's never enough, but how the hell did we get here?

• 10:23Speaker 01

  Yeah, so what's happening today is that parents are becoming, in the words of researchers, social conduits. They are trying to prepare their kids for this uncertain competitive future, and it comes out in our parenting. We tend to become more controlling, we tend to become more perfectionistic in what we're demanding of our kids, and not to blame parents.

• 10:46Mel Robbins?

  But why not? Hold on a second. I blame myself, and I don't have a problem with it. By the way, this is so relevant to me as a boss, too. To take responsibility for how you take the pressure that you feel and pass it on to somebody else, you have a huge impact in other people's lives based on how you process and handle the pressure that you feel. And you just jam that down your kids, or your colleagues, or your friends' throats because you can't tolerate it yourself. And so I think there is a massive role that parents play that they need to wake up and start taking responsibility for.

• 11:20Speaker 01

  I don't disagree with you. Blame is the word that I'm tired of. I guess what I'm trying to tell parents is to zoom out and put into context the anxieties and the fears that they are feeling so that they can see them. It's not personal. Every parent is feeling this. I worked with a Harvard researcher to conduct a first-of-its-kind parenting survey, and we were hoping to get a sample size of 1,000 parents. And within a few days, 6,500 parents had filled it out. And there were these universal themes that parents today feel responsible for my children's achievement and success.

• 12:00Mel Robbins?

  Does that concern you?

• 12:02Speaker 01

  It concerns me when our parenting behaviors are not conducive to raising healthy achievers. When I was growing up in the 70s and 80s, like, my parents, yes, they would buy me a tennis racket or a pair of running shoes, but they didn't feel like they had to push me to the front of the pack. And I think today, parents, not only do they feel that responsibility, they think other people are judging them on that as well. I asked how many agreed with, "Others think that my children's academic success is a reflection of my parenting." 83% of parents agreed with that statement. So it's not only that we feel responsible for making sure they're successful in the future, but other people are judging us.

• 12:44Mel Robbins?

  I agree with you. And in fact, this reminds me, this is the first time in US history, anyway, that kids are worse off than their parents. Worse health outcomes, life expectancy, higher anxiety rates, higher depression rates, worried about the environment, the changing job market. It's no wonder everybody is stressed out.

• 13:04Speaker 01

  Yes. I asked parents, so we're talking about the stress that they're feeling in their homes, right?

• 13:11Speaker 01

  How many of you agree or disagree with this statement on a scale from one to four? "I wish today's childhood was less stressful for my kids." Eighty-seven percent of parents agreed with that statement. I want to know, who are the thirteen that didn't? My god.

• 13:28Speaker 01

  Maybe they read the question wrong. At the end of the survey, I asked parents if they would be willing to be interviewed, and hundreds of parents reached out. And so I traveled the country, listening to these stories over and over again. It was the same story. The, you know, the sleepless nights by their kids in order to cram in all the AP classes, the weekends spent at soccer tournaments, missing family gatherings, missing birthday parties. The mother in Alaska told me her kids never understood what a Thanksgiving meal really was, because they were always on the road going to soccer tournaments on Thanksgiving. So I guess what surprised me the most was how universal this feeling was, and how honest

• 14:13Speaker 01

  parents were about it.

• 14:15Mel Robbins?

  That's exactly what we're talking about. That there's the ability to strive and to want to achieve something and to do it in a very healthy way, rather than amping up the pressure and the stress that we feel.

• 14:29Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 14:29Mel Robbins?

  And I can't wait to hear what we need to focus on in order to get back to the kind of life where you are focused on healthy achievement, instead of being driven to the race to nowhere, based on this toxic grind culture and this pressure that we feel. So how do we get there?

• 14:47Speaker 01

  Yeah. At the root of all this suffering is an unmet need to feel like we matter, for who we are at our core.

• 14:57Mel Robbins?

  Seriously?

• 14:58Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 14:59Mel Robbins?

  I mean, I thought we were talking about achievement. Now you're talking about mattering? I mean, that's kind of a squishy topic. You're gonna have to break this down for me and for the person listening, because you're talking about doing, doing, doing as the problem, but somehow being, being, being, and feeling like you matter? How are we gonna get there?

• 15:21Speaker 01

  Yeah. As part of my research, I went in search of the healthy strivers. I wanted to know what, if anything, they had in common. What was home life like for them? What was their relationship like with their peers? What was school like? And I found about 15 or so common threads that these healthy achievers had in common. And as I was looking for a framework to present my findings, I came across the psychological construct of mattering. It's been around since the 1980s. It was first conceptualized by Morris Rosenberg, who brought us the idea of self-esteem. And what he found in the 80s was that students who felt a healthy level of self-esteem felt like they mattered, that they were important to their parents

• 16:07Speaker 01

  and known for who they were at their core, that their value wasn't contingent on their performance or what they looked like or what team they made. And they were also depended on to add meaningful value back to their families, to their friends, to their communities. They experienced this high level of mattering because they had social proof. They believed at their core that they were valued, and then they saw it in action with how they were adding value to those around them. So when they stumbled, when they had a setback, they didn't feel like it was an indictment of their worth. They were able to bounce back.

• 16:43Mel Robbins?

  Oh, wow.

• 16:44Speaker 01

  Yeah. Mattering is a core need that we all have to feel important, significant, and like we make an impact on the world. To matter, we need to feel valued for who we are at our core by our families, by our colleagues, by our friends and our larger community. And importantly, we need to be depended on. We need to be relied on to add value back to our families, to our colleagues or friends, and to our larger communities. When we experience that feeling valued and adding value, that's when we have a high level of mattering. And mattering acts like a protective shield against anxiety, depression.

• 17:29Speaker 01

  It's not that the students that I met... Who experienced this high level of mattering, who were striving in healthy ways. It didn't mean they didn't have failures or setbacks. But what mattering did is it acted like a buoy. It helped to lift them up. When they had a setback, when they felt like they were failing, it wasn't an indictment of their worth.

• 17:48Mel Robbins?

  Hmm.

• 17:49Speaker 01

  The kids who seemed to be suffering the most were kids who felt like they only mattered when, that their mattering was contingent, their value was contingent. The other group that seemed to be suffering the most were kids who felt like they were valued at home, but no one ever depended or relied on them. So what happens is they lacked social proof that they mattered.

• 18:16Mel Robbins?

  This is the exact same thing that all the research has proven to be true about people who succeed at work and people who don't. That there is this underlying theme of feeling like you matter to the people that you work with, to the person that is your manager, and that your contributions are important. And so it makes sense to me that this would be the exact same construct that would either make a student feel invisible or that they mattered, or make a student feel like I only get the attention I need at home when my grades are amazing and my parents have something to brag about.

• 18:59Mel Robbins?

  I wanted to pull this apart just a little bit more because I immediately latched on to you saying, if you don't have social proof, that can plummet your self-esteem. What is, what do you mean by social proof?

• 19:15Speaker 01

  Right, so social proof tells a student or an adult that you, you are important in this world. You make a positive impact on the world around you. The, the idea of mattering, whether it's for students or for people at work, or for people who are retired, mattering matters throughout life. Young, old, rich, poor, there is what researchers call an instinct to matter. So beyond Food and shelter. It is the instinct to matter that researchers say drive all of human behavior for better or for worse. When we feel like we matter, we show up in the world in positive ways. We achieve in healthy ways.

• 19:57Speaker 01

  We want to give back to society. We want to be a good neighbor. We want to be a great colleague. We want to lift people up. Because we have this deep core of mattering. When we feel like we don't matter, when we are made to feel marginalized, we can either fall inward, get depressed, anxious, lean on substances to to feed our our loneliness. Or we can act out. So a school shooter is, you know, among the most tragic examples. You don't think I matter? I'll show you I matter. This is a universal need that we all have, and we are living in a society where it is going unmet for too many people.

• 20:38Speaker 01

  And that, to me, is the driving force behind the loneliness we're feeling. The anxiety that we think we're not worthy, the depression when we when we feel invisible, when no one cares about us, or when we think no one cares about us.

• 20:52Mel Robbins?

  So it sounds like we all have this innate, important, critical need to feel as though we matter in the world at large or to other people that we have something to contribute. That that is the core issue that most of us are struggling with. And the symptoms that it's not being met are things like loneliness, despair, feeling angry, anxiety. All of those things rise to the surface when this core need isn't met.

• 21:26Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 21:27Mel Robbins?

  I really want to like dig deeper and deeper into this because I think. When, you know, our audience, which is now in 194 countries, when people write in, "I have no friends. I don't know what to do with my life." I believe this is an issue that this person has no social proof that they matter. Can you give us examples of what is social proof that you matter?

• 21:55Speaker 01

  Yeah. In a corporate event, a 30-year-old raised his hand and he said, "Sometimes I feel like I don't matter. Is there a mantra I could say to myself to help me put myself in that mattering mindset?" And I said, "No." I said, "Here's what you need to do. You need to go down to your cafeteria and you need to smile at the cafeteria lady who always smiles at you and asks you how your day is going. And you need to say to her, 'These days have been a little rough for me, but knowing that you're going to be there greeting me with this delicious meal, making me smile, you brighten my day every day. I just want you to know that.'" Unlocking the mattering in other people feeds our own mattering. So instead of a mantra,

• 22:39Speaker 01

  go out and be kind and caring to the person at the drugstore who's ringing up, you know, who's probably being attacked day in and day out for not moving fast enough, and just thanking them, just thanking everyday people, thanking a friend who's been there for you. Just a quick text. It, it, mattering is felt, you know, in big moments, right? When we are celebrating a milestone birthday and somebody gives a toast to us and tells us why we matter to them. But it's also found in little everyday moments, too. I just remember distinctly, I was at an office party with my husband and a guy was talking to me, but on his phone and texting the entire conversation. And I thought to

• 23:22Speaker 01

  myself, "Wow, I really don't matter to this guy." He wasn't being rude to me. He was just showing me, "Yeah, you don't matter as much as this phone." So when we, when our kids come up to talk to us and we're scrolling or we're doing a work email, they, they can be getting those small signals of not mattering, like I got at that, at that office party.

• 23:41Mel Robbins?

  Wow. That is fascinating. And I want to take a quick pause. We need to hear a word from our sponsors who allow us to bring this amazing content to you for free. So let's take a listen because they matter. And we'll be right back with more from Jenny Wallace. Stay with us.

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• 26:08Mel Robbins?

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• 27:37Mel Robbins?

  Welcome back. I'm here with Jenny Wallace, who's just finished a four-year-long research project. She's written a book, Never Enough, and she's helping you and me break this cycle that we're trapped in of toxic achievement and focus on what actually matters in life. So Jenny, you recommend when kids come home from school that there's one question that you ask that shows that you matter. What is that question?

• 28:06Speaker 01

  I lead with lunch.

• 28:07Mel Robbins?

  What does that mean?

• 28:08Speaker 01

  So what I used to do before researching this book is my kids would come home and I'd be, you know, thinking, how'd you do on the Spanish quiz? How'd it go on your report today? And what I realized in doing the research was that the signal I was sending my kids, one was that achievement mattered. Two, this is what I'd been thinking about all day while they were in school. And so instead now, when they walk in the door, I lead with lunch. I ask them, what'd you have for lunch today? And I got that idea because my grandmother, in every conversation I would have with her, she's since passed away, it would always be, what did you have for lunch? It was, I care about you. I care about your nourishment. I care about things that have nothing to do with how you look, what grade you got, how your career is going.

• 28:54Speaker 01

  I just care about you and your basic needs.

• 28:57Mel Robbins?

  And what did you see change in the dialogue with your kids when you started asking about lunch instead of the Spanish test?

• 29:04Speaker 01

  I, well, first of all, what I have realized and what the research shows is my kids don't need me to ask about their Spanish test. They already are getting the signals everywhere that achievement matters so much. My home needs to be a place for kids to recover from the pressure they're feeling, from their peers, from their peers' parents, from teachers, from the college admissions process. My home needs to be a haven from that pressure. So I don't need to ask about their Spanish quiz because they're going to tell me. It's already on their minds.

• 29:37Mel Robbins?

  So is the same true when your partner comes home from work or your roommates come home from work? How do you signal that they matter to you? What's the question that you ask?

• 29:47Speaker 01

  What was the best part of your day? What mattering to me is, is that I value for who you are at your core. It is not contingent on your performance. It's not contingent on how you look that day. It's not contingent on how many dates you're going on. You matter no matter what. Unconditional mattering. And we need to be a source of unlocking it in other people.

• 30:10Mel Robbins?

  I love the advice that if you want to unlock this sense of mattering, and if you want to build your own self-esteem, put your attention on other people and unlock it in them. Make eye contact, smile, point out what you appreciate that people are doing for you. Thank people, compliment their nails. It's so easy to do, and not enough of us are doing it. And you do get back this reciprocal exchange of energy that makes you feel important, because you just made somebody else smile, or you just made somebody else light up when you said their name. There was a Gallup study that was done that I found to be shocking, that something like 80% of people haven't been told by their boss

• 30:52Mel Robbins?

  that they're appreciated in the last year. Not a single acknowledgement that what you do here matters, and I appreciate you for doing it. And that, to me, is stunning, except for the fact that the same research showed, if I recall correctly, that most people assume, "You know how I feel about you." And that's the huge mistake that we're all making, that we assume that our kids know that we love them, but we never say that. That we put our attention on other things, like the Spanish test, which then cues to somebody, "That's what she cares about, that's all that she cares about. She's really happy when the team wins, she's not so happy when we don't."

• 31:37Mel Robbins?

  And so I think what you're revealing is this real thin veil that separates us from one another, that we don't realize we need to have to get super, super proactive about.

• 31:52Speaker 01

  One of the reasons that people, research finds this, that we don't tell people how much they mean to us and how much we appreciate them, is because we think they're going to be embarrassed by our feedback.

• 32:03Mel Robbins?

  Really?

• 32:04Speaker 01

  Yeah, there's a research on gratitude, about why people don't express their gratitude, because they underestimate how the other person will receive it. And sometimes they think they'll embarrass the other person. But the research does not bear that out. So just to clear up any misconceptions.

• 32:20Mel Robbins?

  You said that 80-plus percent of parents believe that if your kid is doing poorly on a test or gets bad grades, it is a reflection on your parenting. But you've got this amazing reframe. What does a bad grade mean?

• 32:36Speaker 01

  Yes, I got this wonderful advice from child psychologist Lisa Demore, and I have used it in my own home as well. So when a child brings home a bad grade, instead of dismissing it or saying, "That's okay," help them widen their perspective. Here's what a bad grade on a one-off test tells you. It tells you that that's what you knew that specific day. It doesn't mean how much your teacher loves you. It doesn't mean how well you're going to do in the future. It doesn't define who you are as a student. It's one test on one particular day, and we all have bad days.

• 33:11Mel Robbins?

  I love that. I love that. You have this incredible family motto. I would love for every family to adopt this. Can you share it with us?

• 33:20Speaker 01

  So in our family, we have a mantra, which is to never worry alone. And that's true of us as parents and also of our kids. And what I hope to instill in my kids with that mantra is the idea that we are worthy of support. We are worthy of being held and nurtured and supported when we are having setbacks. We are not our setbacks. Our worth is our worth. And when we worry with others, we feel validated. We hear our worth. We see it in the support that others give us. We get that social proof that we are valued no matter what. Whatever you do, don't worry alone. That's when we get into trouble.

• 34:02Speaker 01

  So reach out for support. We think as parents, our job is to raise self-reliant, independent adults. And that is an important thing to do. But there is a more profound lesson that our kids need to learn if we want to raise them to be healthy, and that is the skills of interdependence. How to rely on others and how to have others rely on them in healthy ways. And so that's where the "Don't Worry Alone" comes from, is part of the skills that I'm trying to teach my kids of interdependence.

• 34:36Mel Robbins?

  Oh, wow. That's so important. You're right. And we do focus on pulling yourself up by your bootstraps and being self-reliant and taking responsibility, that modeling healthy connection and interdependence, getting support when you need support, talking about your feelings. We've got to model that too. And if you're not, you're teaching somebody to suffer in silence, the way that so many of us have for generations. One other thing that I love that you wrote about was that being good enough is way better than being perfect. Why is that?

• 35:14Speaker 01

  Yes. So I talk about this in the book, that when my oldest was born, almost 18 years ago, I thought about going back to graduate school to get a PhD in psychology so that I could be the perfect parent with the latest research. And I know, crazy, right?

• 35:31Mel Robbins?

  Yes.

• 35:32Speaker 01

  And what I found is that perfection as a parent does not serve me, and it does not serve my kids. What serves us both better is this idea of being good enough. And the good enough mother is responsive to her kids' needs. She doesn't meet every need because she can't, only, you know, no one can. But to be responsive, to acknowledge it, to validate the need, and to do the best that you can do. And that takes us off the hook as parents, not needing to be perfect. And it helps our kids regulate their emotions when they get a little bit disappointed and frustrated that they can't have the perfect parent in this situation.

• 36:15Mel Robbins?

  It reminds me of this thing that you wrote, "The difference between getting a 91% on a test and a 99 is having a good life."

• 36:25Speaker 01

  That is it. That is it. And, you know, as parents, I certainly fell into this trap myself. The idea that we had to put our needs behind our kids at every turn, and I certainly subscribe to that idea of needing to be the perfect mother. And then I realized that I was getting burnt out. I would say the thing that really changed my mind about all of this is the research. The number one intervention for any child in distress is to make sure the primary caregiver, most often the mother or the father, that their well-being, their mental health is intact. Because a child's resilience rests fundamentally on their caregiver's resilience.

• 37:09Speaker 01

  And caregivers resilience rests fundamentally on the depth and support of their relationships.

• 37:17Mel Robbins?

  I want to make sure everybody heard that. You're saying that based on the research, if there is a child that is struggling, the most important intervention that works to help the struggling child is to give the caregiver of that child deeper levels of support.

• 37:42Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 37:42Mel Robbins?

  If you're somebody that's listening to us right now and you're like, Jenny Mel, that sounds great, but I don't have anybody, or I don't even know where to start, or who the hell am I going to ask because everyone that I know is also burnt out? You have a framework for this. So can you lay it out for everybody listening?

• 37:58Speaker 01

  Sure. So this is a study that was originally started by Sonia Luthar, one of the leading researchers in the world on resilience. And she did a series of studies, including people who were busy mothers and also had a busy professional life. And she wanted to find out if one hour a week for three months, one hour a week with a small group of four to five people in the same sort of kind of world, if they could be sources of support for each other. And what she found was no mother bowed out, even when the busyness, you know, of their, of their professional and, and home lives were calling for them. One hour of the week, they met,

• 38:41Speaker 01

  they talked about their struggles. And at the end of it, she measured their cortisol levels, those had lowered. She measured well-being, the relationships with their kids and relationships with their parents. And what she found was that you only need one hour of deliberate support a week, one hour. And after the three-month intervention,

• 39:03Speaker 01

  The mothers reported stronger connections with their kids, less stress when it came to work and home life, and lower levels of cortisol.

• 39:12Mel Robbins?

  And for those of you going, but I don't know where to get it, churches have free daycare and they have a lot of support groups that would be a great place to start. Community centers, looking in your town's Facebook pages for events that are going on. You're not going to find it sitting on your couch complaining to yourself about it. You're gonna have to put yourself out there. You also say it's critical that we tell our kids and our colleagues and our friends our failure stories. What does that mean?

• 39:41Speaker 01

  So, my daughter was in 7th grade and she considered herself a good writer and her 7th grade teacher, you know, gave her her paperback and it had red marks all over the place. So she was so discouraged and I said, Caroline, come to my computer. And I pulled up an early article I had written for the Washington Post's science section and it was edited by a really seasoned, wonderful editor. And it was a bloodbath. There were comments, there was, I don't understand this, can you add more here? I need another interview. Where is this study? And my daughter was like, oh my God, I can't believe they let you write for them. And I said, see, at first, I was embarrassed. I told her to need all that work to see all those red marks. And then I thought about it a different way.

• 40:25Speaker 01

  I said, oh, this person is trying to invest in me. They are trying to make me a better writer. So I now welcome feedback, is what I said to my daughter. I sometimes even say out loud to myself in my office, well, that's enough for the day. Because I have a tendency to overwork and so I have to put the brakes on myself and I want to model that out loud to my kids.

• 40:48Mel Robbins?

  You have a nicer way of saying, I'm always like, well, I just fucked up again. And then they're like, Mom, dollar in the swear jar. I'm like, I'm gonna be paying for your college tuition with the amount I'm swearing around here because I screw up all the freaking time. I could talk to you for hours, but you know what really matters right now is hearing a word from our sponsors because they allow me to bring this content to you at zero cost. So let's take a quick pause, hear from our sponsors, and we will be right back with more.

• 41:21Mel Robbins?

  When it comes to investing, or really anything, don't you think it's important to choose a company that you can trust? One where you have the freedom to do things your way with confidence? Because some days, you might want a little more control and flexibility. And other times, you may need a specialist in your corner to help out. Well, with Schwab, you get all that and more, all in one place. Schwab has everything from self-directed investing when you're thinking, "Hey, I got this," all the way to full-service wealth management when you're like, "You know what? I'm gonna need to get some help." That includes planning for big goals too, like college, buying a house, retirement planning, and more. Because if you're gonna do this whole money thing, you might as well choose a firm that lets you do it your way, right?

• 42:05Mel Robbins?

  Visit schwab.com to learn more. That's S-C-H-W-A-B dot com. Have you noticed that these days, there's a holiday for everything? So, Ollie went ahead and declared August National Dog Poop Month. Have you ever gone through a phase where you analyze your dog's poops? You know, "That one looks healthy. Ooh, that one, not so much." If anyone gets being this invested in the quality of their dog's poop, it's Ollie. They deliver fresh, human-grade food that is gently cooked to maximize your dog's nutrition. In other words, they make sure your dog's poops are 10 out of 10 every time. Ollie's fresh recipes are developed by real chefs with gut-friendly ingredients

• 42:46Mel Robbins?

  that support better digestion, energy, skin health, and better poops. This summer, treat your pup to better food and perfect poops. Head to ollie.com/mel, tell them all about your dog, and use code MEL to get 70% off your welcome kit when you subscribe today. It's super easy and risk-free with their obsession guarantee. That's O-L-L-I-E dot com slash Mel, and enter code MEL to get 70% off your first box. Ollie, Feed the Obsession. To me, self-expression is all about showing the world what's on the inside. That's why I want you to discover Pandora Talesman, a new collection designed to help you express every side of who you are.

• 43:29Mel Robbins?

  Featuring meaningful zodiac symbols and personalized jewelry pieces, each design tells a story that's uniquely yours. Pandora Talesman, a new language of self-expression, because every version of you deserves to be seen. Shop new styles in-store or online at pandora.net.

• 43:51Mel Robbins?

  Welcome back. I'm Mel Robbins. I'm here with Jenny Wallace, who's written the book Never Enough. She has researched the topic of the grind culture and toxic achievement for over four years, and her research concludes that what we all actually need is to feel like we matter. So, let's learn more research-backed tools that we can use in order to achieve that. What are the top things that parents say or do that we have no idea is eroding or erasing the value that your kids need to feel?

• 44:24Speaker 01

  Yeah. So, the first thing that we do is criticize. And most of us know not to be harsh critics of our kids, right? We, this generation is very aware of not being overly critical. But really, criticism impacts our kids up to five times more than a compliment does.

• 44:48Mel Robbins?

  Wow, really?

• 44:49Speaker 01

  Yeah. So, what I try to keep in my mind is that to create this kind of healthy environment in my house, I need to keep a ratio in mind. I need to think that for every one criticism, I need to at least have five positive interactions with my kids. We are wired, as parents, to look for the negative and to try to help our kids overcome the negative. But really, what we need to do to have that kind of connection is, we need to focus on the positive things that are inherent about them. What is it about them that's unique? And so, when you look at the research on achievement culture or on healthy

• 45:28Speaker 01

  connections, it is having that warm relationship with a parent, a minimal criticism, and prioritizing affection. That is what helps us create this connection at home.

• 45:43Speaker 01

  So when I asked the leading researcher, Sunya Luthar, "What's one thing I could do tonight in my house to buffer against any achievement pressure in my home?" She gave me a phrase that I've kept in my head, which is minimize criticism, prioritize affection. She said the kids who were the healthiest in her studies, who went to these competitive schools, at home, their parents were not critical of them. They were able to separate the deed from the doer.

• 46:12Mel Robbins?

  So can you define criticism? Because I'm thinking about a situation with our daughter the other day where she's moving back to LA, she's out of college, I still consider her a kid because this stuff about mattering is for all of us. And we were talking about the fact that today, while you and I are talking, she's on an airplane heading back. And she got her knickers in a pinch because she wanted to put all of her shoes in a box and then ship the box. And I was like, "No, that's going to cost like $100 for crying out loud. You get two checked bags for 25 bucks and I can check a bag with your shoes." So I criticized, right, is that what you're talking about? Are you talking about criticizing her for being stupid?

• 46:54Speaker 01

  Criticizing her. That's exactly right. It's separating, like you did, the deed from the doer. She's not dumb. Spending 100 and whatever to send shoes, that's kind of dumb when you can spend $25.

• 47:09Mel Robbins?

  Exactly. And now she's on a budget. It's amazing how you don't have champagne taste anymore when you're paying for it yourself. You know what I'm saying?

• 47:16Speaker 01

  I do.

• 47:17Mel Robbins?

  And that leads right into something else that I think is super important for everyone to hear based on the research. Chores, chores, chores, chores matter. They not only matter because you need the people that you live with to be helping with chores, but chores impact this instinctual desire to matter. How so?

• 47:41Speaker 01

  What chores do is not only build a work ethic and, you know, a sense that they're competent. More than that, it shows them that they are an important part of the family. And family is the first introduction to society for a child. To show them how to be a contributing member of the family is one of the most important lessons that we have as parents if we want to start developing a healthier society than what we're seeing now. So instead of saying to your kids, "You need to set the table. I'm sick of setting the table." You could reframe it.

• 48:20Mel Robbins?

  Were you here last night?

• 48:24Speaker 01

  You could reframe it and say, "Hey, Dad's cooking dinner. I'm working on a deadline. Who can pitch in and set the table?" Teaching kids how to look at other people's needs as well. Does that make sense?

• 48:37Mel Robbins?

  I love that. And I'd like a few more scripts. So let's role play here because the old Mel, what I've been doing to date is, "Oakley, your room looks like shit. Look at that pile of laundry. You smell disgusting. I'm not your maid. There's no laundry fairy that lives in this house. You gotta get the laundry done." What would be a more effective and better way to say that?

• 49:04Speaker 01

  Say, "I am really busy this week. I have so many deadlines. Can you do me a favor? I really need these pants cleaned. When you do your laundry, can you throw a couple of my things in too?"

• 49:15Mel Robbins?

  Wow. I just got something, Jenny. I hate doing laundry. And so I resent the fact that it's building up. Because I do ask him in a very kind way, "Hey bud, could you stop by the grocery store on your way home from practice? You know, it'd be a huge help if you could pick up these three things." Because I need them to make dinner tonight. And he's delightful. But we are in this standoff where I'm like, "Let's go. Get your laundry done." And I'm kind of making fun, but I'm not as supportive and effective in the laundry because I don't want to have to do it. I don't, you know, but I like what you're saying. "Help me with this. Can you throw a load in? It'd be a really big help."

• 50:01Mel Robbins?

  Yeah, I love that.

• 50:03Speaker 01

  Yeah, and then it's not a power struggle. Then it's asking for help. It's reaching out for support.

• 50:09Mel Robbins?

  That's true. That's true.

• 50:11Speaker 01

  Yeah. I would say one of the things that was an eye opener for me was how important it is to ask our kids for their opinions about things. When we don't ask our kids for their opinions, we tell them your opinion doesn't matter right now. And instead, we can empower them. We can ask them advice. We can, you know, planning a vacation, having them go on and look for the best rate on a hotel room or the best price for a rental car. Show them they have an impact. Show them they can add value to the family. To matter is to feel valued at our core by family, friends and community,

• 50:53Speaker 01

  but also being relied on and depended on to add meaningful value back to the family, to the school, to the community. So, you know, knowing about mattering has changed the conversations I have with my kids. So there is a phrase by a Brown University sociologist named Gregory Elliott that really resonated with me. And he said, what gets in early, gets in deep. And when you are growing up and you are told you don't matter, we don't want your opinion, we value your brother more than we value you, when you're interrupted, when nobody sees what is interesting and unique

• 51:37Speaker 01

  and special about you as a human, that gets in deep. And it takes a lot of work to get it out. And I don't know that it ever leaves this unmet need to matter. But I do know that it doesn't take much to let people in your life, strangers, the people you love, to let them know they matter. It happens in small, everyday interactions. It doesn't have to be a big, grand gesture. These small interactions build.

• 52:08Mel Robbins?

  I feel like there's a number of things that you stopped doing. You stopped criticizing. You stopped ignoring their opinions. Is there anything else that you stopped doing or that you changed after doing this research project?

• 52:21Speaker 01

  So a lot of the wise parents that I met had a volunteer mandate in their family. So you know how some parents say, I don't care what sport you play, you could play soccer, anything you want to play, but you have to stay active. That's a value in our family. I now have a volunteer mandate and it's for everyone in our family. We devote time every weekend to that, just like some parents would with sports. I love that. I love that. I'll tell you another thing I've stopped doing. Please. I used to praise my kids. I used to say, you're so good at this, you're so good at that. Wow, you're strong in math.

• 52:59Speaker 01

  I have found in the research that a child's sense of self becomes stronger, less by being praised, which can feel like pressure, and more by being known for who they uniquely are. So I've gotten what I call a PhD in my kids. I study them just like they're studying me and I see what makes them tick. And that used to be something that was hard for me. You know, my peers and, and colleagues would talk about their kids' strengths and this and that. And I say, I don't know what my kids' strengths are. Like it doesn't stick out to me. And so as a family, we did something, it's a free online tool that is called the VIA survey. V I A, Values and Action Survey.

• 53:42Speaker 01

  And it tells you your five core strengths, things that are inherent about you. And so as a parent, I now focus on these strengths. We are no longer looking at weaknesses and sort of zooming in and focusing on weaknesses, which are sort of normal for a parent to worry about a child's weakness. You know, we are, we all have this negativity bias and we are, we are programmed by evolution to focus on the negative. But what taking the VIA survey did is that it helped me see the inherent strengths of my kids and it made my kids feel seen and known by me. I'm stealing that from you. Yeah. So the research on values was eye opening for me.

• 54:26Speaker 01

  What the research finds is that the environments that we are living in, our homes, our neighborhoods, our workplaces, activate certain values. So if you have a child that's going to a competitive school, they are saturated by these values that are saying, "Reach that goal, get that GPA, make the A-team, look good." Values operate like a zero-sum game. So the more you spend on those extrinsic values, the less room in your life you have to focus on the intrinsic ones. You just have so much time in the day. So what the research says is that parents need to really focus

• 55:07Speaker 01

  on the intrinsic values at home to balance out the values in our environment. The values that tell our kids, "You need to look a certain way, you need to weigh a certain thing. Your hair needs to look this way, you need to get all these likes, you need to make it into this college, make it onto that sports team." So at home, you need to focus on the other things, the intrinsic values. "You're such a good brother. Thank you so much for always, you know, cleaning the table and taking out the trash without even anybody asking." You just always see when there's a need in the family and you meet it. And there are different ways that we can point out these intrinsic values to our kids. One way is to do that via survey that we talked about.

• 55:49Speaker 01

  Another way is to listen to what adults in our children's lives say about our kids. So for example, the teachers in my kids' schools write a little narrative along with their grades. And I've stopped focusing on the grade, and instead I focus now on the narrative. And it's always about their strengths. And I do it with a highlighter and a pencil and I annotate them. And I'm like, "Oh, my gosh, I see this too at home. Wow, you always do this with your sister." I try to balance out their values, and here's why. Because when we are overly focused on extrinsic values, research finds we are more likely to suffer from anxiety, depression, and substance abuse disorder.

• 56:29Speaker 01

  So that is why it is so important at home for a parent to focus on the intrinsic values that act as like a protective force of our self-worth.

• 56:37Mel Robbins?

  One of the things that Chris and I did that I want you to steal, because you know, our kids went to public high schools, we didn't get really big write-ups. So when we go to the teacher meetings, we would always just say, "We don't want to talk about the grades in the schoolwork. Tell us what kind of a person they are when they're here. Talk to us about who you see here and how they are with their peers, how they are with you." And it's a way for you to get that intel from another adult if you're not getting those kind of reports from whatever school. And by the way, I just keep coming back to the fact that all of this is relevant to all of us. I just assume most people are

• 57:21Mel Robbins?

  walking around with a deficit in feeling as if they matter, that most people feel that they don't. Most people have a deficit when it comes to the amount of times they're celebrated, the amount of appreciation that they get, and that if you go through your day, whether it's with your kids, or your colleagues, or with your friends, your partner, and you really just assume, most people have not been told that they've been appreciated in a week, or a year, or ever in their lifetime. People need to be lifted up, especially now. And we all have a small part to play, and I would argue, a responsibility in unlocking

• 58:05Mel Robbins?

  it in other people. And you'll be surprised how when you put the focus on calling out what you truly appreciate about other people, the difference they make for simply smiling, for simply being there, for it really comes back to you tenfold. You know, I always think about that saying, "Be kind to everybody because you have no idea what they're dealing with." And I think it's safe to assume, every person that you meet is dealing with a ton of shit. And most people have not gone to therapy. They do not have the tools. It's one of the reasons why I'm here twice a week. Because most people, it is, it got in early and it got in deep. And it doesn't even have to be your family. If you were like the only brown kid in your entire elementary school class,

• 58:50Mel Robbins?

  that seeps in. If you experience racism and bias, that seeps in. If you struggle with constant poverty, if you're being neglected or abused physically, emotionally, it seeps in. And it can come in in just infinite ways. And your research and the simple things that you're saying actually make a difference in your life and in anybody else's life when you bother to use it. So Jenny Wallace, thank you so much. The book is Never Enough. Get it, read it, apply it, because it matters. Thank you so much, Mel. Thank you. Everybody, let's give it up for Jenny. Thank you for your expertise, your insight,

• 59:32Mel Robbins?

  and for really going deep on this very real problem that we all face. And I think you gave us incredible tools. And what I find the most empowering is that you and I hold the keys to helping other people feel like they matter in this world. And when you really think about that, isn't that a beautiful thing? Isn't that a beautiful thing to be able to do for another human being? To tell them and to make them feel that no matter what you do or you don't do, you belong here, I see you, you matter to me. And simply calling somebody by their name, looking them in the eye, putting the phone down, being present, telling them

• 1:00:17Mel Robbins?

  that you appreciate the little heart or the little leaf they put in the top of your coffee, that's enough. That's enough to flip the switch for somebody. And it also explains why I always end our conversations the same way.

• 1:00:33Mel Robbins?

  I always end by telling you that, in case nobody else tells you, I want you to know that I love you. And I mean it. And I say it because I want you to know that you matter to me, that I think about you on this walk with me. And that's why I say it. So, thank you for spending your time with me. Thank you for sharing this conversation with other people in your life. Thank you for showing up for yourself. I love you, I believe in you, and I believe in your ability to create a better, more meaningful life. All right, I'll talk to you in a couple of days.

• 1:01:18Mel Robbins?

  Are you ready for me, Jesse? Yes. Okay. So, it's cool to do that? Yep. Okay. Can you turn down the return just a little? Yeah. Awesome, thank you so much. Oh, I don't know how to do that, okay. I mean, I don't have a pro-- hold on a second. Let me try that one more time. Something like that? Good? Yeah. Okay. Great. Oh, I think we should add one more thing. Oh, yeah. Do you want the this, or no? Okay, great. Great, thank you, guys.

• 1:01:58Mel Robbins?

  Oh, and one more thing. And no, this is not a blooper. This is the legal language. You know what the lawyers write and what I need to read to you. This podcast is presented solely for educational and entertainment purposes. I'm just your friend. I am not a licensed therapist, and this podcast is not intended as a substitute for the advice of a physician, professional coach, psychotherapist, or other qualified professional. Got it? Good. I'll see you in the next episode.

• 1:02:36Mel Robbins?

  This episode is brought to you by SoFi, the everything app for smarter money. Let me ask you something. Is your money working for you? Or is it just sitting there? A lot of us work hard, get paid, and then leave our paycheck in checking. That's an easy habit to change. With SoFi Checking and Savings, you can earn up to 3.8% savings APY for up to six months with no account fees and a cash bonus of up to $400 when you sign up with eligible direct deposit. Terms apply. It takes just minutes to open an account from your phone, and you can organize your savings into vaults for the goals you're working toward. Go to sofi.com/mal to get started. SoFi, get your money right.

• 1:03:20Mel Robbins?

  SoFi Checking and Savings is offered through SoFi Bank, N.A., member FDIC. Nearly 50 years after Stephen King's Carrie became a cultural phenomenon, Mike Flanagan is reimagining the iconic story for a new generation. Now, the new series honors the legacy of the original Carrie, but it's asking the question, are we watching the origin of a hero, a villain, or something far more complicated? And in this modern social media age, Carrie's new story resonates more than ever. You don't want to miss it. Carrie is streaming October 7th only on Prime Video.