276. Introversion vs. extroversion

What makes someone an introvert vs. an extrovert and why is it different to what you may have been told? In today's episode, we break down the psychology between these two personality types that seem to categorise and divide society by looking back at when the theory was first created, till now. We also discuss: The myth of ambiverts What dopamine has to do with it How much is it genetic? The Big Five How introversion/extroversion is influenced by where you were born How to accept your personality + so much more Listen now to learn about why you are the person you are! PREORDER MY BOOK: https://www.psychologyofyour20s.com/general-clean https://www.penguinrandomhouse.com/books/755841/person-in-progress-by-jemma-sbeg/ Follow Jemma on Instagram: @jemmasbeg https://www.instagram.com/jemmasbeg/?hl=en# Follow the podcast on Instagram: @thatpsychologypodcast https://www.instagram.com/thatpsychologypodcast/?hl=en# For business: [email protected] mailto:[email protected] The Psychology of your 20s is not a substitute for professional mental health help. If you are struggling, distressed or require personalised advice, please reach out to your doctor or a licensed psychologist. See omnystudio.com/listener https://omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Speaker 00

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• 0:04Jemma Sbeg?

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• 0:49Jemma Sbeg?

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• 3:39Jemma Sbeg?

  Before we get into this episode, a little disclaimer. If you couldn't already tell from my voice, I am indeed a little bit sick with some mystery bug, a mystery illness, but of course, the show must go on. I'm in Wyoming at the moment in the US, visiting some friends. And as an Aussie gal, the cold weather does not agree with me one bit. And I seriously feel like I landed. Spent like two hours in Wyoming and my body was like, we don't like this. Let's bring up any dormis dormant viruses that you may have and bring them all to the surface.

• 4:18Jemma Sbeg?

  So if you can, please bear with me while I manage this cold virus, whatever it is, I would really, really appreciate it. Because I'm just really glad to share this episode with you. It's one that I have wanted to do for a long time. I feel like I say that a lot, but it's because I always have these ideas on the back burner. Today, I'm really happy to have you here for a very in-depth, dare I say, fun and fascinating episode on the difference between introverts and extroverts. Or should I maybe say what you think the differences are? But which we may have been misled to believe by the over simplification of human personality.

• 4:59Jemma Sbeg?

  Extroversion and introversion seem to be this weird thing that divides society. Who are the social butterflies? Who are the hermits? But it is so much more complex and nuanced than that. You know, I consider myself an extrovert, but I don't really party. I cancel plans probably way more than I should. I feel tired a lot. So maybe I'm an introvert, you know, there's all these like different ways of seeing it. And I really want to explore what it actually means. And you know, I also have friends who are most certainly introverts, who really need a lot of alone time. But you know, for the two hours that they're at the party, like they are the life of the party.

• 5:44Jemma Sbeg?

  Basically, what I'm trying to say is that it's complicated. And what I really want to do is break down the origin of this concept, like historically in the psychology community. Uh, what the research really tells us about each personality type? And why that simple version that we probably all know is is incorrect. We're going to start at the very beginning and then explore how levels of extroversion and introversion have maybe even changed in recent years. More specifically, how it differs within individuals based on factors like gender and culture. I also want to discuss the myth to do with so-called.

• 6:25Jemma Sbeg?

  Ambiverts, why do you feel that you might not be either an introvert or extrovert? And is the term ambivert appropriate? But ultimately, what is it that makes us more like one than the other scientifically? And I also want to finish out the conversation by talking about how we can accept the introverted or extroverted part of ourselves, especially in a world, you know, in a career, in a friendship, maybe, even in an environment where certain parts of being an introvert or being an extrovert don't feel accepted. So there is a lot to cover.

• 7:07Jemma Sbeg?

  If you are like me and really fascinated by, you know, just personality in general, this is definitely the episode to open your eyes and give you some cool facts that you may not have known. I hope you're ready. I am definitely ready. Without further ado, I'm going to give you a short break from my sick voice and get into the episode, get into the psychological differences and perhaps similarities between introverts and extroverts. Let's get into it.

• 7:42Jemma Sbeg?

  I want to get straight into it and talk about the major differences between introverts and extroverts, some of which we're probably already familiar with, some others of which you may not have heard of. But before that, we do need to know where this idea came from. I feel like these terms, introvert, extrovert, have become parts of our shared language now, like they're parts of the psychobabble. We throw them into conversations, left, right and centre. But I do think it's really important to also know how they came to be. It's an important piece, you know, even if trivia, if nothing else. So the person you really want to know about in order to explain these concepts is Carl Jung. He is a legendary Swiss psychoanalyst and psychiatrist.

• 8:29Jemma Sbeg?

  He is, he's famous. He can be credited with more concepts than I think I could even count. And extroversion and introvert is just one of them. He basically saw these as central traits to each of our personalities. And, you know, something that we could use to categorize people in society and categorize their personalities. You were either high in introversion or high in extroversion. Something that a lot of us actually get wrong, though, is that you have to be one or the other explicitly at all times. Not true. According

• 9:11Jemma Sbeg?

  to Jung, we actually all have an extroverted and introverted side. One is just more dominant more of the time. And to be honest, you know, I have never actually met somebody who is entirely one hundred percent introverted or entirely extroverted. You know, maybe the only example, like I was thinking about this and I was like, no, there must be someone. The only example I can think of is like that philosopher who lived on an island by himself for twenty years. I've completely forgotten his name. If you know who it is, leave a comment because it's, it's going to annoy me. But, you know, perhaps the only people who we

• 9:53Jemma Sbeg?

  could accredit as being one hundred percent one over the other are people who are so-called hermits, people who are socially reclusive. But again, that is very, very rare. And, you know, it's not the case that you can only receive energy from ourselves, or you can only receive energy from others. Humans require different, different things, different sources of fuel, different sources of motivation and energy. This here is actually the most important distinction between an extrovert and an introvert. It rests on how we each prefer to gain energy or recharge.

• 10:37Jemma Sbeg?

  Do we seek inspiration and stimulation from within ourselves or out in the world? It's a spectrum that we all sit on and where we sit can actually change day to day. But we do tend to lean more one way than the other. Now, people who sit right in the middle, they're known as ambiverts. They have a perfect balance, some would say, of extroverted and introverted traits or desires. It's actually important to note that this idea of an ambivert is actually a modern addition to the original theory. So Jung, he himself did not introduce that term.

• 11:19Jemma Sbeg?

  He didn't believe that ambiverts existed, so of course he wouldn't have given it a name. He really did say you are, you have both, but one is dominant. Therefore, no one is an ambivert because that would suggest a complete um balance, a perfect unison or blend of them both. Anyways, basically what makes you an introvert versus an extrovert depends on where you primarily seek gratification or stimulation. So a primarily extroverted person seeks it from human interaction. Hence, this idea that they're quite talkative, they're social butterflies, they have many friends, they make plans.

• 12:01Jemma Sbeg?

  They're enthusiastic, they really thrive from the energy of others or in a group. In contrast, people we would consider introverts derive gratification and peace from solo activities, from that alone time that they crave so much. They're a bit more reserved, quiet, passive, maybe. If you're an introvert, you may also find that if you have been around people for too long, for too many days in a row, you do get a bit irritated. You can't focus, you wanna just kind of fade into the background and you can't wait to like, get back to your room, get back to your space, get back to a place where you can just be in your own company.

• 12:46Jemma Sbeg?

  In comparison, like, an extrovert may never want the party to stop. Like, they're the ones who are like, okay, like, we finished the main event. Come hang out at my place. Like, let's go watch a movie. Let's go out for another drink. They're people who really need multiple social touchpoints throughout the day. So they need to see someone in the morning, they need to have a call with someone in the evening. Uh, you know, they like to have a so- a full social calendar. And they will find that they feel less satisfied, less purposeful, less creative, less fulfilled. When they go too many days without seeing people or really like having nourishing conversations or interactions.

• 13:29Jemma Sbeg?

  Some introverts though do have like, um, I don't know what the term is, but like introverted pals, let's call them that. People who they can be around constantly and not feel the need to have a break from in order to restore their energy. Normally, it's another introvert, right? It's someone who you can do what we call parallel time with. Where you're like both sitting in the same room, but you're doing different things, but you enjoy like the physical presence. That's a, a, a little caveat, a little small addition to the introverted nature. Some psychologists have suggested that introverts are people whose energy tends to expand

• 14:08Jemma Sbeg?

  through reflection and dwindle during interaction, but active interaction. So they can be around other people if it is not something that is going to cost them all their mental resources. They can be silent, they can be thinking, they can be introspecting. Now, introversion is not the same thing as being antisocial or shy or even having social anxiety. It's a common misconception, but extroverts can be just as shy and just as socially anxious as your everyday introvert. I am somebody, again, who was incredibly extroverted. In fact, you know, I was reminded of that fact very recently, like I spent a few days

• 14:52Jemma Sbeg?

  in a row without seeing anyone and I did feel low. I I felt a significant dip in my mood, but I also have my fair share of moments of feeling awkward, um, of feeling like I shouldn't go to this thing, I don't know anyone. I'm not confident all the time because extroversion and social ability or perceived social acceptance are not the same thing. This is a whole other facet of personality. If we look at it another way, an introvert can be the most confident, self-assured person you know, counter to what people may think. They just need more space in their day for themselves, but you could put them in front

• 15:37Jemma Sbeg?

  of a big crowd, in a big group, and they would still feel at ease. It's just that it's not their preferred way to seek validation, gratification and energy. Again, it's two different dimensions. So continuing on with this history lesson, after Cal Young first introduced this idea in a piece of writing almost a hundred years ago, it was then adopted by many others in the field. Many other psychologists and psychiatrists were like, huh, he might be right. And they wrote papers finding things that were very, very similar to what he was noting, that we could identify people in this way.

• 16:19Jemma Sbeg?

  And so extraversion slash introversion became what we now know as one of the defining personality traits that we use today. Famously, it is now part of what we call the big five. Now, we've spoken about the big five many times before. And if you're a psychology student, I'm sure you have heard of this before many, many times. So apologies for being boring, but let's just consider this a refresher. If you're new to the idea, the big five is basically the attempt of psychologists to categorize us as humans by categorizing our personalities.

• 16:57Jemma Sbeg?

  It's basically the closest thing that we have to a formula for describing someone based on five core traits and where they sit on the spectrum of these traits. So consider like five scales and you can sit, you know, in different positions on each of those scales. And where you sit on those different positions will end up giving you your personality type. If you've ever done, you know, the Myers-Briggs test, like you'll be very, very familiar with this. Let's talk about the traits though. The first one is openness to experiences.

• 17:35Jemma Sbeg?

  So you can either be someone who is very curious, very creative, um, is really accepting of new things, is really hungering for um, new sensations, maybe takes risks, is happy with the discomfort of experiencing something new. Or you can be someone who is quite happy in the normalcy and happy in the comfort of their routine. Next, we have conscientiousness. This is organization, how efficient you are, your general sense of responsibility. You can be someone who we would call quite type A, who was very efficient, very organized, very productive.

• 18:16Jemma Sbeg?

  Or you can be someone who kind of, you know, operates more by like the seat of their pants, is a little bit more on the go. Then we have extraversion, which we've already talked about. One side of the scale is extraversion, the other one is introversion. Are you social? Are you, are you assertive? Or are you more reserved? Do you gain energy from reflection? Then we have agreeableness. This is compassion, respectfulness, trust in others, basically your ability to get along.

• 18:45Jemma Sbeg?

  We all know there are people who like, they just start fires, they just create conflict. And then there's another set of people who are very, um, I don't know what the word is, but they're just very easy to be around. They don't really wanna disagree. It's not that they don't have opinions, but they know the time and place. Like, they're just an everybody person. Then finally, we have neuroticism. So this is probably the biggest area where we would talk about mental health. It's a very slim part of it, but do you lean towards being quite anxious and depressed or, um, yeah, quite neurotic is the term they used to use for it, or are you someone who was not really afflicted by those things?

• 19:28Jemma Sbeg?

  So individual personalities are thought to feature each of these, like all of us sit somewhere on this scale. You can't be like zero in any of these. Like you sit somewhere. So you can rate high in extroversion, but low in openness to new experiences. So you like the people you like, but you find it hard to open up to new friends. You may also be low in extroversion, so you're an introvert, but high in agreeableness and low in neuroticism. So you come off as really friendly and open, but that doesn't necessarily mean that you wanna be around people all the time. Basically, what I want you to conclude from the big five is that personality is bigger than introversion versus extroversion. And it's also most certainly bigger than the big five.

• 20:14Jemma Sbeg?

  The big five is a great structure to explain how someone might react in a certain situation, why they are the way they are. But it doesn't include things like interests, specific hobbies, passions, our self-concept. Our self-concept, how we think about ourselves. That's actually a big flaw that people find with the big five. It's that it doesn't really explain this. It doesn't explain, you know, our perspective on ourselves. It just explains how we may appear to others. But personality, you know, it is also a requirement to describe personality that we reflect on our own emotional patterns, our certain abilities, our behaviors, our likes, our dislikes, like the list goes on.

• 20:58Jemma Sbeg?

  And that's why I really warn people against thinking about themselves as either entirely introverted or entirely extroverted. And more than that, wrongly assuming that it defines who you are in its entirety because.

• 21:13Jemma Sbeg?

  I promise it doesn't. It's just one component. So moving on from that, I wanna answer a specific question now that we have largely ignored for the first part of this episode. What actually makes someone introverted versus extroverted? Like, is it something that we just pop out of the womb being? Like, is it like a weird Harry Potter sorting hat? What makes us who we are? So there are a few explanations, of course. It's never straightforward in psychology. The first is that it's largely, but not entirely inherited. So there's a huge genetic component, and we can see that in twin studies.

• 21:55Jemma Sbeg?

  In one series of twin studies conducted in twenty twenty, researchers looked at more than six hundred different genes and found that blueprint, genetic blueprint, contributed somewhere between thirty to sixty percent to whether you were extroverted or introverted. So basically, if you had an extroverted parent or you had an extroverted twin, there was around a thirty to sixty percent chance that you would also be extroverted, not introverted. So that is like heritability. What's the likelihood that if we took a million people, how many of them in the same circumstances would end up as extroverts? How many of them would go the other way and end up as introverts?

• 22:41Jemma Sbeg?

  Honestly, you know, if it's at the low end of like thirty percent, that's actually pretty minimal in my eyes. But, you know, it's it's bigger than nothing and it still does point to the fact that who your parents are really does influence who you will be. So the reason that genetics has an influence is because of how genetics can influence how certain systems in our brain work. So we all know that when we get a genetic blueprint, that genetic blueprint influences a lot of things. One of the things that it influences is cerebral or brain development. And that's what makes the next two theories important.

• 23:22Jemma Sbeg?

  Is that whether you are an extrovert or an introvert comes down to arousal. And we're not talking about sexual arousal. But the extent to which our bodies and our minds are alert and ready to stimulation. So this explanation was first proposed way back in the nineteen sixties. And basically, it suggested that the brains of extroverts are chronically under aroused. Leading them to seek out stimulation from the environment. Extroverts need to basically work harder to get themselves up to the level that others find normal.

• 24:04Jemma Sbeg?

  And pleasant, hence why they really like novel social experiences. They like being around people. They may even be more boisterous and risk taking. In contrast, introverts already have a naturally lower threshold. So it takes less for them to feel kind of overstimulated. You know, a really good book, a movie night, that provides just as much stimulation and fun to them. As a club, because they don't need as much to bring about enjoyment. And too much stimulation actually makes them quite overwhelmed, whereas for extroverts, sometimes the limit doesn't exist.

• 24:47Jemma Sbeg?

  So really, what this all comes down to, this is the suggestion, is our brains and their inner workings. Specifically, the activity of neurotransmitters like dopamine, serotonin, adrenaline, or norepinephrine. Now, this theory of arousal was presented almost sixty years ago. And since then, we have obviously become a lot more advanced in our scientific technologies. So we've been able to test what was once a bit of a wild guess. Turns out, it was a pretty good guess. In two thousand and five, researchers from the University of Amsterdam. Set out to test this theory specifically by looking at whether extroversion versus introversion is really.

• 25:32Jemma Sbeg?

  Determined by how active our dopamine systems are. Now, a lot of us think of dopamine as the happy chemical. That's true, but it's also responsible for motivation, learning, concentration, sociability. So it's gonna play a role in this personality trait. They got a huge sample of people and they grouped them based on a simple personality test. And then they got them to participate in a game of sorts. Where they had to place bets and they had to be, it was in like a social environment. And they were either rewarded for their gamble or not. Here's what they saw. The reward centers of the brain displayed a lot more activity when the individual was an extrovert.

• 26:18Jemma Sbeg?

  They also paid attention to the game for longer. They seemed more keen to keep engaging in the game. Maybe because of that social element. But all of this, this whole experience, they were receiving a more positive, more rewarding reaction from it. The introverts, on the other hand, or who the people, who the scientists imagined were introverts based on this personality test. They displayed a whole lot less activity in those same areas. Suggesting that extroverts are the way they are because they just have a heightened sensitivity to reward. Highly reactive dopamine systems. And they already receive a baseline of reward just from being around people that introverts don't get.

• 27:04Jemma Sbeg?

  So it makes sense that these people would be happier in big social situations or taking social risks or even personal risks because of what happens deep in their brains. That's one side of the coin, but it also comes down to environment, specifically culture, socialization. How we were raised and that's one further piece of the puzzle that we were going to explore after this short break.

• 27:36Jemma Sbeg?

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• 28:57Jemma Sbeg?

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• 31:03Jemma Sbeg?

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• 33:11Jemma Sbeg?

  Looking at the origin behind introversion and extroversion, specifically like the biological underpinnings is one thing, but humans, I don't think, can be reduced to chemical messages in their brain. I think doing so misses a really important part of the picture. And that part we miss comes down to social influence and environment. It seems that where you were born and where you grow up will also determine whether you are more extroverted versus introverted. If you grew up within a culture that values outward social engagement and being outgoing and loud and very forward,

• 33:54Jemma Sbeg?

  extroversion rates will seemingly be higher because more people learn that this is what is kind of expected of them. They're also kind of raised to adapt to these environments. They mimic the behaviors of those around them, so they may appear to be more extroverted. Extraverted. When we compare that to quiet, reflective, peaceful societies where children are taught and raised to be quiet, to be reserved, to be introspective. We're definitely gonna see a difference in overall rates. Consider the difference, for example, between individuals from a country like Japan versus the United States.

• 34:35Jemma Sbeg?

  Obviously, not everyone within those countries are going to be the same. You know, no one group is completely homogeneous. But if we took the median of each, I would expect the US to be higher in extroversion and the Ja- and the Japanese people higher in introversion. So the research shows that levels of extroversion seem to be divided by whether a country or a culture is actually individualistic or collectivist. So individualistic cultures like the United States, they prioritize individual expression and outward displays of of confidence that's linked to extroversion.

• 35:17Jemma Sbeg?

  Collectivist cultures, on the other hand, they value harmony, they value group cohesion. That might lead to more introverted behaviors. You know, I would love to see like at what point being removed from that culture and placed in the other one would maybe change who you are. Like if you grew up in the United States until you were six and then you moved to a place like Japan, would that change who you are? Or like, would it have to be when you were three? Could it be, you know, as late as fifteen? It would just be very, very cool. Like whether it would be a really great way to see whether it's something you're born with or something that you learned. Like if there's a

• 35:59Jemma Sbeg?

  certain direction you're going, that's then like completely turned around by primarily exposure to a different culture.

• 36:07Jemma Sbeg?

  Long ramble, apologies. I'm just very interested in that, like it'd be cool research project. Gender also influences us a whole lot because it impacts how people choose to see us and how we are raised. I feel like I don't have to do a whole revision or history lesson, but you know, there's this real sense that loudness in young girls is definitely policed, it isn't seen as attractive. Um, whereas for young boys, like it's totally acceptable. They are raised to be boisterous, loud, a lot more social. So there are actually higher rates of introversion amongst women compared to men.

• 36:46Jemma Sbeg?

  It also kind of brings me to a crucial question of this episode, maybe one that you are asking yourself at this point. You know, if you were raised in a specific culture, if you were raised as a woman to be quite timid, to be quite shy, to be quite silent, can we change that the older we get? Is there an opportunity at some point to become more extroverted? Or is it forevermore a permanent part of our identity? I think from my research and also experiences, it is really possible for us to obviously momentarily slip into an introverted or extroverted state if our environment requires it, sometimes even for more than a moment.

• 37:30Jemma Sbeg?

  Um, obviously we were discussing before Jung's theory that actually it's just that one is more dominant, but you do still have introverted and extroverted parts. And when it's appropriate, that part of you might switch on. I've heard stories from friends, but also in case studies of people who after trauma, especially a social kind of trauma, they were extroverts and they become introverted. They no longer get the same energy. We also see people who are quite introverted, who enter a new environment, perhaps a new workplace or a new relationship and become quite extroverted. But if you do believe the psychology and the personality theories,

• 38:11Jemma Sbeg?

  what they say is that you should always return back to the state that is natural for you. Even when the trauma has hopefully been addressed, even when you're in that workplace that demands this from you, at some point your true nature is going to come out and you're going to return to what we call like emotional or I guess even social homeostasis.

• 38:36Jemma Sbeg?

  I think beyond that, though, people do change as they get older. And as their situation changes as well. So yes, it might be a momentary lapse into introversion or extroversion. But over time, if a situation demands it, or if you just change as you grow, you will see that you're skewing perhaps more towards the other direction. You know, consider someone who is really isolated in a retirement home. Maybe they become more introverted out of necessity. You know, it's quite a sad example, but in this state, like, it's harder for them to change their nature entirely. So maybe this part of them just becomes more present.

• 39:21Jemma Sbeg?

  It means that they are forced to be okay with being alone because of their situation. And so maybe some small part of them adapts to that. What we, what we're really wanting to discuss here is can we change our personality? Like, that's the real key question of the hour. And I actually have an interview coming out with someone in two weeks, and it's this amazing author from The Atlantic, and she tried to change her personality over the span of a year, and she was really, really diligent. She enacted all of these lifestyle changes and habits. And she did find like some great success, so I'm not going to spoil that episode. But yeah, I do think that persistent intervention or major lifestyle events

• 40:04Jemma Sbeg?

  can permanently shift you, even though like there is a theory that you'll always come back. I think depending on the magnitude of the event or how intense and diligent you are with your exercises to become more introverted or more extroverted. I do think it can work, but what I would ask is, why would you want to? You know, if I'm talking about this and you're really paying attention, why is it that you feel like it's so necessary for you to change who you may fundamentally be? If this is who you are and where your energy levels, your socialization levels, your stimulation levels naturally sit,

• 40:48Jemma Sbeg?

  what would push you to try and strongly change that part of you? I think I have an answer, right? I think it really does come down to the fact that it often feels like society is made for a very specific type or level of extrovert, not someone who is introverted and definitely not someone who is too extroverted. And I actually received a message from a listener about this, which really inspired me to do this topic where she was talking about how difficult it is to feel like you'll be successful when you are naturally quieter or naturally less assertive or naturally less interested in networking in a

• 41:28Jemma Sbeg?

  world where all our depictions of CEOs are quite brash, bold, loud leaders with big personalities. Or, you know, every job in the spotlight seems to involve a great level of socializing. You know, that doesn't look appealing if you are an introvert. I will say, introverts aren't often in the spotlight because, you know, typically they're gonna keep away from it because it's very exhausting. That doesn't mean that they don't exist and that there isn't representation, recognition, great appreciation for the introverts in our society, even if they're not the frontrunners, even if they're not the people that are put on the main stage.

• 42:10Jemma Sbeg?

  They are still, there are still, sorry, so many examples of people who are incredibly successful. Barack Obama famously has talked about how he is an introvert. Albert Einstein was an introvert. Bill Gates, introvert. Steven Spielberg, also an introvert. Eleanor Roosevelt was apparently quite introverted as well. Warren Buffett, Marissa Mayer, she was the founder of Yahoo. Like, there are so many examples. Don't let, you know, modern media and our very individualistic depictions of success make it seem like you are either too quiet or too, too loud to find what you really want.

• 42:53Jemma Sbeg?

  I want to talk about how we can actually manage our natural state or our natural level of energy and desire for socialization in a world that really favors extroversion. And even better, how to balance friendships and relationships when personalities differ. How to network, how to be socially active and do what's socially necessary without being, you know, drowned out by that constant like noise in your brain and that constant like perhaps tiredness. I think if you're an introvert and you're struggling with this, the first thing I want you to do is really devote your energy to those and what matters

• 43:33Jemma Sbeg?

  most. Try and figure out how many hours is your maximum amount for socializing before you become perhaps, you know, not someone who's that fun to be around, you know, someone who you don't really like. When you start to hit a wall, take notice. How many hours have you been in this situation? How many days in a row have you felt like you've needed to do things? Really trust your intuition and trust your body when it is asking for refueling time and almost figure out, okay, is it five hours a day that I can socialize? Is it two? I'm going to use those hours as best as possible and not try and go over

• 44:18Jemma Sbeg?

  them. I think this obviously takes some trial and error, but I've had people tell me how um keeping a journal for three weeks where they track hours around others, hours socializing versus their mood was very, very helpful for them to identify their specific cutoff. Basically, you want to follow the very simple principle of of make time for what matters and don't feel like you're selfish. Don't feel guilty for saying, you know, I don't have space for this on my plate right now, especially when it's things that, you know, perhaps are a little bit unnecessary or perhaps is leaning more into a people pleasing territory where you're only doing it to make somebody else happy.

• 45:02Jemma Sbeg?

  If you're only at the social event, if you're only in the meeting that was voluntary because you think it's going to make someone else happy. Making yourself miserable is not going to make that person happy. Like, making yourself miserable as well is going to bite you in the tush. So have strong boundaries around that, know your limits. I also think in terms of keeping up conversations or giving the appearance of meeting energy levels, especially when you you know you've hit your wall, but like there's no way out. Here are some tips I use as like, primarily as an extrovert, that I think are a small lift in those situations so that you can still be present.

• 45:42Jemma Sbeg?

  You don't feel like you're being rude, but also maintain some sense of peace, like when you don't want to be in that situation or when you do, but you're you are like getting quite tired. Firstly, I would say ask people about themselves. People love that. A recent study I was reading said that most people spend the majority of their days thinking about themselves. So if they can bring that to a conversation and talk about themselves, even better. Like, literally, my secret is just to be like, why to everything they say, but with a few more words. Like, if you ask someone what their job is at a party and they say, oh, I'm an accountant, sometimes that can really stump people because you're like, you know, wh- what, what do I talk about with that?

• 46:27Jemma Sbeg?

  But you can ask the why question. Okay, why are they account, why are they an accountant? And then be like, oh, what made you want to do that? And then say they say what it is and, you know, it's because my parents did that and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Oh, and why did your parents inspire you so much? Why did maths seem like so much fun? Literally embody a four-year-old who just has endless curiosity and ask why, but just with a few more words. And ask open questions, smile, nod, make eye contact. You don't have to do even half of the talking. If you engage in active listening, so it might save you a lot of energy resources.

• 47:08Jemma Sbeg?

  And I promise you, like, someone will leave that interaction with you and be like, wow, they were so interesting. Because they just found themselves interesting. Like, that's the whole secret. I will also say, kind of on a different note, but quality over quantity is something that I think we extroverts could learn to do better. When it comes to saying yes, yes to friendships, to plans and whatever it is, and my introverted friends are definitely experts at this. So if you've found your balance, keep doing it. Don't think that just because someone else's life looks different to yours, that it's any better than yours. That is a fallacy that we very much love to lean into as humans. We think everyone is happier than us, just because they do it differently.

• 47:52Jemma Sbeg?

  Or just because they present as being happier, not realising that I think happiness is deeply individualistic and personal. If you know that you're an introvert, don't try and fit into an extrovert's skin. If you know you're an extrovert, don't try and shut yourself down to be more like an introvert. Because you think it's going to be more appealing to people, both individuals are going to end up unhappy. The thing is, when we talk about extroverts and introverts, at whatever point on the spectrum you sit in the moment. Or across your life, each of us contributes a perfect amount to humanity. And each of us, in whatever form we come, I think is balanced by someone else out there.

• 48:34Jemma Sbeg?

  Who was hopefully being their most authentic self. And who was, you know, filling the bit that we don't fill. So if you're an extrovert, you have your introverted um balancing act. Like, there's someone else in the world who provides what the world needs in an opposition to you. Basically, like, we need everyone. You play a role, even if you think that you're too much or you're too little. I truly believe in like the harmony and the balance of this world and maybe even the universe at large. And this is one aspect of it. Tiny, tiny micro aspect of it, but it's an important one. You know, I hate ending on something as cliche as like be yourself.

• 49:18Jemma Sbeg?

  But this is so, so true. Like, I hope you take away from this episode. How much value we each bring, how we need extroverts, we need introverts. Whatever you are, we need everyone to make the world go round. So if you are questioning, can I change myself? Can I be happier? Can I be more like that person? Please really contemplate whether being more like that person. A person who you were not born to be is going to make you any happier. Or whether really leaning in to the strengths of your introversion. Or the strengths of your extroversion, what it makes you amazing at. What it makes you so talented at, what it brings to society. Whether that is actually going to make you happier.

• 50:04Jemma Sbeg?

  Like a real sense of stubbornness to yourself, a sense of surrender, a sense of complete acceptance. I think that's all we have for this episode. Thank you so much for. Bearing with my sick gross voice for this many minutes. I appreciate it if you've made it this far. In the comments below, I want you to leave your Myers-Briggs or your big five. Personality kind of traits, whether you are an extrovert or an introvert. I really wanna hear whether people in my audience lean. More one towards the other. Maybe I'll even pop a poll down there because. I would be very, very fascinated by that information. I hope you learnt more about yourself from this episode.

• 50:47Jemma Sbeg?

  If you feel like there's someone else in your life who could get something out of this. Feel free to share it with them, start a conversation, share it to your Instagram story and see what people. Think. It's also really a great way for me to reach new people. And to hopefully build this community, which we always love. Make sure that you are following along, you leave a five star review, only if you feel called to do so. And you can also follow me on Instagram at that psychology podcast. If you have questions, queries, qualms, conundrums, further comments, or even episode suggestions. My DMs are always open and as always, until next time. Stay safe, be kind, be gentle to yourself and we will talk very, very soon.

• 51:36Jemma Sbeg?

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• 52:19Jemma Sbeg?

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• 53:03Jemma Sbeg?

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• 53:48Jemma Sbeg?

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• 53:54Jemma Sbeg?

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• 54:30Speaker 00

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