The DC Shooter Worked for CIA | EYES ON GEOPOLITICS

In this episode, the hosts discuss various geopolitical issues, including a recent shooting incident involving National Guardsmen, the implications of PTSD on military personnel, and the challenges faced by Afghan allies seeking immigration to the U. S. They also delve into the effectiveness of special operations forces in military engagements, particularly in the context of Venezuela, where military action is being considered. The conversation touches on the legal and ethical complexities surrounding military orders and the importance of congressional oversight in foreign policy decisions. Support the show on Patreon:⬇️ https://www.patreon.com/TheTeamHouse Subscribe to our new newsletter!!!! https://teamhousepodcast.kit.com/join New merch, patches, and stickers! ⬇️ https://theteamhouse-shop.fourthwall.com Check out Mick's new podcast here:⬇️ Apple Podcasts: https://podcasts.apple.com/at/podcast/pub-and-porch-applied-stoicism/id1836955475 Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/1k3QPmkAMwnGJxMLDwUSSd?si=n6piIu8XRcag1Z0K43A3bQ Youtube: https://www.youtube.com/@UCd0Hq6QFk8CoTu5j-VU0Ong Find Mick Mulroy here: Fogbow ⬇️ https://fogbow.com/ Lobo Institute ⬇️ https://www.loboinstitute.org/ Twitter ⬇️ https://x.com/mickmulroy?s=21&t=-Ze3F_Ix2vlJ18KFvORTCA LinkedIn ⬇️ https://www.linkedin.com/in/michael-patrick-mulroy-31198b52/ Bluesky ⬇️ https://bsky.app/profile/mickmulroy.bsky.social Mick’s publications ⬇️ https://www.loboinstitute.org/publications/publications-of-michael-mick-patrick-mulroy/ Find Andy Milburn here: Twitter ⬇️ https://twitter.com/i/flow/login?redirect_after_login=%2Fandymilburn8 LinkedIn ⬇️ https://www.linkedin.com/in/andrewmilburn2023 Substack ⬇️ https://amilburn.substack.com/ Andy’s book ⬇️ https://www.amazon.com/When-Tempest-Gathers-Mogadishu-Operations Bluesky ⬇️ https://bsky.app/profile/andy-milburn.bsky.social Find Jason Lyons here: LinkedIn ⬇️ https://www.linkedin.com/in/jason-lyons-666873316?u Bluesky ⬇️ https://bsky.app/profile/bgsilverback73.bsky.social "Karl Casey @ White Bat Audio" 00:00 Start 01:25 The Shooting Incident and Its Implications 09:44 Understanding PTSD and Its Impact on Veterans 16:38 The Role of Afghan Allies and Immigration Challenges 20:06 The Efficacy of Special Operations in Modern Warfare 25:04 Trust and Partnership in Military Operations 30:27 The Role of Advisors in Warfare 36:17 Venezuela: Military Action and Its Implications 45:55 Legal and Ethical Considerations in Military Orders Become a supporter of this podcast: https://www.spreaker.com/podcast/the-team-house--5960890/support https://www.spreaker.com/podcast/the-team-house--5960890/support?utm_source=rss&utm_medium=rss&utm_campaign=rss.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

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• 1:00Speaker 03

  Hey, guys. Welcome to another episode of Eyes on Geopolitics. I'm Demetri Kuntakos. I'm here with Mick Mulroy, Andy Milburn. Not going on as usual. Start off with, we had that shooting incident that happened in DC where two National Guardsmen were shot. I believe one has passed away over the weekend. The other one is in critical condition. You know, it was a former Afghani. He wasn't a commander. He was a translator, right, that worked for like the Zero Units that were connected with the CIA. Mick, you obviously have, you know, pretty intimate knowledge about what, you know, what the units were

• 1:43Speaker 03

  doing there and stuff like that. I saw a lot going on in terms, not, I guess, politically, where like, you know, the administration pulled away, like, any and all immigration and visas for, like, any pending visas for folks coming from Afghanistan to the United States. So there's, it's become kind of this like back and forth. You see it in the veteran community and people who have worked with, you know, indigenous folks that helped us, you know, tremendously. We probably wouldn't have been able to do any of the things we did there without them. They're kind of being demonized and stuff. And obviously, what this guy did was abhorrent and fucking horrible, and he should rot in jail. But I don't think that, you know.

• 2:30Speaker 03

  Labels the entire community, right? So Mick, what are you thinking about like that? I know you have, you're pretty tight with, you know, you know, these people, a lot of these people and stuff like that. So you have intimate knowledge.

• 2:45Speaker 04

  Okay, so I don't know this individual specifically, and I agree that this was a deplorable cowardly act. And the person that did it should be prosecuted to the full extent of the law. Uh, and now that this young soldier has passed, who was simply doing her duty. Uh, the fullest extent of the law is going to include potential for the death. So my thoughts are with, uh, the surviving soldier, uh, the staff sergeant. And obviously the family of both, it's just, uh, horrible. Um, I do agree that don't condemn the entirety of the group based on the depraved actions of one individual.

• 3:30Speaker 04

  Uh, if you look at this year alone, we've had a service member run a car through people in New Orleans. We had been killed 14 people. We had, uh, another one, uh, so the first one was a soldier. Second one that I, I'm just off top of my head, uh, can attack the, uh, church in Michigan, Marine. Uh, the third one that I can think of off the top of my head, uh, shot people on, up on a pier in, uh, North Carolina, another Marine. So obviously horrible on all fronts, but we don't condemn the Army and the Marine Corps, uh, in its entirety for the actions of, of those, uh, individuals. So, uh, that's where I'd start. And yes, I'm very familiar, uh, there's certain restrictions on what I can say.

• 4:15Speaker 04

  Um, the person to my knowledge, and this isn't from my bitten, knowledge from being in the service and the, and the agency is just from the press releases. He was a, he was a, a salter with one of them, one of the main, uh, Units that we had over there and he according to the again media ten years uh he was in service and I could tell you that that unit um saw some of the hardest fighting in Afghanistan. It was almost nonstop. Right? So even if you look at folks that went over there and came back, went over there and came back on our side. Uh, these guys never left. So it was it was uh operations every night.

• 4:59Speaker 04

  I I would like to point out, although it's not really relevant to this, is this idea that they were like a walking human rights violation is patently untrue. Uh, and if it was the case, then there's a whole generation of CIA officers and military officers uh that condoned it and and uh and essentially were okay with it because we were completely embedded in in charge. Uh, so I I just find that to be, it's one of those things each is he can't defend itself because we can't really talk. Um, but it's just untrue, whether it's uh, you know, a foreign journalist writing it or a US. And if it is the case, then they should have they should have had a DOJ investigation and the oversight committees should be going crazy. But you know why they're not? Because it's not true.

• 5:46Speaker 04

  That's it. So on on and I don't know the exact process. I was involved with the TF Dunkirk, because this is long after I got out of the government, of helping get uh Afghans that worked with us out and in this uh special immigrant visa process, which is a law that was passed in, I think, the two thousand nine NDAA, uh, which gave the criteria. And I do believe that we had an obligation uh to get the ones out that met that with a strong caveat that they still have to be vetted. And if they're a threat to the United States, then that would. Uh, void the obligation, right?

• 6:30Speaker 04

  I think inherent in any obligation to bring you in and make you a potential citizen is that you're not a threat to our fellow citizens. So I do think what should happen here is they should follow the facts. This could is probably a PTSD thing. I don't know that. But if I'm looking at what happened, a revolver, driving across the country, uh, the ambush tile thing, I just, I, but again, the facts should lead or the facts lead, not speculation by me or anybody else. I don't think there's a problem with, uh, you know, reviewing our vetting process. Uh, but I think we should accept that. Any vetting process is mitigation of a threat. It's never going to be elimination of a threat.

• 7:15Speaker 04

  And that includes us, like going into the military or the CIA or, um, you know, uh, vetting to be a doctor or a lawyer or whatever. It's, it is, I think we have a very effective system. There's nothing wrong with reviewing it to determine whether we actually do. Um, that's one side of this. I also would strongly urge not condemning an entire population of people based on the actions of one, obviously, that's un-American. Uh, but some of the, to you know, the, the flip side, not of that, but the flip side of relooking at who we're letting in is a lot of these countries don't have records. They don't actually have what we need to do vetting, not, not this, uh, SIV, because we kept those records.

• 8:00Speaker 04

  But a lot of people coming in from some countries, like there isn't anything there, there, they can't really inspect it, is my understanding. If, if, if that's not true, then, then I don't know why we would have a ban on them. If it is true, then we're going to need to review that. But that, because this expanded from this individual and this program to like everybody coming from, uh, you know, what is it, 30 countries? Um, I would just caution that that should be reviewed, but, but, um, uh, ultimately, if we can do solid vetting, I don't think they should be restricted, but we should really look at, uh, our processes. I think that's very fair.

• 8:41Speaker 04

  But hopefully, and I saw several people who have been champions start coming out of these groups. And I, you know, on behalf of them, I appreciate that. Because it's not easy to be talking about this right now from that perspective. It's way easier just to be the one saying boot them all out and all that. And that's just not, I think, fair, just like it wouldn't be fair to veterans. To base our value and worth on individuals that might have had a psychological event.

• 9:16Speaker 05

  Yeah, I, you know, whenever anything like this happens, the, there is always a surge of kind of a desire understandable in the public for vengeance, right? It's kind of closing the door, the stable door after the horse has bolted.

• 9:40Speaker 05

  And yes, the, you know, the crimes are horrific. And so everyone feels compelled, of course, to say, to express rightfully sympathy for the victims. But these are such complex issues, right? You know, Mick, you mentioned that PTSD was likely involved. Well, of course, it was likely involved. You know, you mentioned too, the scale of combat that these units were in. And, you know, I wish you could talk a little bit more about,

• 10:14Speaker 05

  about, you know, in general terms about these units. Because yes, indeed, they were in a degree of combat for a period far longer than than most American troops could even imagine. You know, Americans rotated in and out. But the Afghans and the Iraqis, for that matter, they lived these wars. There was no escape from them. Again, you know, every time we start talking about this, we feel compelled to say, but what they did was horrible. But, you know, PTSD is an awful thing too. You don't, and that sounds like such a vapid facile thing to say. But it, it changes people traumatically, right? I mean, doesn't it?

• 10:58Speaker 05

  You know, I mean, it, it turns, it makes good people do bad things. We know that. We have seen that. There's no denying it. We've, and, you know, on a, on a, on a. On a different scale, we've all known guys who've come back and taken their own lives as a result of PTSD. And in every case that I've known of, in the months, sometimes years before they have taken their lives, they were no longer the individuals that they used to be. So, again, I mean, this isn't this isn't just an empty rant about the tragedy of life.

• 11:42Speaker 05

  It's a fact that we cannot, you know, we want to feel this desire for vengeance. We want to strike back. We want to now say, okay, ban every Afghan from ever coming in. But that's not the solution, you know, because the problems that caused what the things that have happened are infinitely more complex. It's the same thing with the Marines you mentioned, Mick, and the discussions that we had leading up to the, you know, this podcast, the two Marines who did horrific things and murdered innocent people, right? And you look back, though, at their career, they weren't always like that. So what changed them, you know, again? And, um,

• 12:25Speaker 05

  okay, so what, you know, what's the solution? Well, the solution obviously isn't to let these people off. And the solution perhaps is to look, I mean, there's multiple things, but it's a social issue, deeply buried social issue. And the answer is not simply to cut off immigration. And last thing I'll say in this, Mick, I'm sure you agree, I like saying that anyway, because it gives me some sense of authority. But, you know, this country's made it hard enough for Afghan veterans, friends of the United States to come in. The last thing that we need to do is make it even more difficult. That's, that's my opinion. You know, we've deserted our allies in many ways. We've raised barriers, we've

• 13:05Speaker 05

  left them, you know, not just the Afghans, you name it. I mean, before them, to some extent, Iraqis, and of course, you know, the Vietnamese. I mean, we haven't been good about

• 13:21Speaker 05

  About enabling people who have helped us in these wars to come to the United States. We don't need to raise even more barriers. That's just my thought.

• 13:30Speaker 04

  Good point, and we have a long history of unfortunately leaving our allies behind and then the community, military intel, special operations community stepping up. Right, so I'm in Montana. If you go down to Missoula on a Saturday during the summer, right now, there's a farmer's market and you get there and you'll see a bunch of mom, a lot of mom, and they have most beautiful vegetables, by the way, and you're like, how did you guys get here? Well, how did they get here? Because a bunch of CIA paramilitary and military special operations vets brought them from Laos.

• 14:11Speaker 04

  When we decided we didn't want to do that anymore and all those people were going to get slaughtered. A lot brought them, brought them over in Vietnam. Right, so there's now there's a memorial in Arlington. Not a lot of people know it, but you can, you can Google it, find it. Two are indigenous partners from Laos and Vietnam. And their service to the United States during that conflict. That's not any different with the Afghans who put it all on the line and quite frankly, they've been annihilated by the Taliban for working with us. So I'm all about making sure that they are sound and not a threat.

• 14:55Speaker 04

  I think if they're going to review things now, they should also review who's helping them, right? So lots, sometimes you get into a status where you can be here, but you can't work. Think of the problem with that. Right, so if there's something keeping somebody from going to gainfully employment and then we're complaining about them not being employed. You see the problem there, right? So, and I understand there's a lot of bureaucracy and there's only so much folks can do. But I think if we're going to do a review, if we see it, we ought to also do a review to how to help people essentially help themselves. So if they're in some status that doesn't allow them to work, let's change that. Let's change that and let them work and basically make a living and not be,

• 15:40Speaker 04

  you know, a burden to others, either taxpayers or other folks. It's a big, it's a big issue of self-worth. I think we all know that. So let's, let's review it for everything, both suitability to be here and what are we doing to make them

• 15:56Speaker 04

  successful? Cause that's, I think, in all of our interests, including society at large.

• 16:04Speaker 04

  But again, absolutely horrible event and I certainly understand and share the outrage.

• 16:10Speaker 05

  Mike, what, what can you tell us about the, the program that he was involved in?

• 16:15Speaker 04

  So it's, it's, you know, obviously I don't, I usually just talk analytical stuff, but there's a lot out there on this program. And already it's a sensitive issue, you know, cause it's easy to write about CIA stuff and then write all this bad stuff. And the CIA doesn't, generally doesn't answer. So I want to take the opportunity to point out that that's not the case. And I can tell you, there's, there's people in the US military special operations,

• 16:43Speaker 04

  you know, SOCOM, all the way to the top and the HT all the way to the top that have worked on these programs and spent a lot of time, years like myself with these programs. They, I think,

• 16:56Speaker 04

  to put it bluntly, we would have lost thousands of more soldiers, sailors, airmen and marines if it wasn't for these units. Not just what they're referring to as the zero units, but also the commandos and the other units that work directly with the US military exclusively. If it wasn't for them, we would have lost, me can Google how many casualties they had. Those would have been Americans, right? And by the time we left and that really disaster with withdrawal, very few Americans were on the front lines. We were losing very, had very few casualties, which is why I was so opposed to just the way we left, rather than leaving a residual force.

• 17:39Speaker 04

  We largely got to that position because of these other units stepped up to the fight. And they did so without hesitation. And I think that has to be remembered. Another interesting point for these particular units is there was never a friendly fraticide ever.

• 18:01Speaker 04

  Uh, and that was, you know, an unfortunate occurrence in other units, but we never had one. We never one attempted one. Um, in fact, when I was at the Pentagon, uh, I would be asked as they did a review of the whole uh, green on blue fratricide in Afghanistan and I was pulled in, not as, you know, the policy guy, but the guy who spent a lot of time with these units. And the question was why? Um, I think it's because we were completely embedded with them. We had folks that went back continuously to the same area. And, you know, I'm not saying that wasn't done, but it just wasn't really done, but by the military. And I don't really know the answer, but with that, it's a important point and it's actually been studied.

• 18:43Speaker 04

  So the idea that this person would come here, uh, and then do this is just, it's, it's an anathema to me and it's just horrible, obviously for the individuals, but also for the community and everything that's been done by so many people

• 19:00Speaker 04

  to try to help these folks get into the United States. I just hope we review that and do the right thing going forward. And, and that's both the security of our citizens and also uh, carrying out our obligations to those that should be here.

• 19:16Speaker 05

  You know, picking up on something that, that you just kind of mentioned, Mick, that perhaps people don't realize now because it's been a long time, but it's been 11 years. It's really the conventional war in Afghanistan ended. I know people are going to critique me for that, but that's true. Conventional troops pulled out basically in 2014 and from then on the war was being fought by units like the agency and by special operations forces by with and through Afghan forces.

• 19:52Speaker 05

  You know, obviously, you know, in the end, the war was not successful, but by and large, those efforts were more successful, I'm generalizing here, than our law, than our conventional, uh, type operations. And, um, and that's kind of, that's kind of a trend, right? Wouldn't you agree?

• 20:12Speaker 05

  See how I do that, but you know, the lighter touch that we have with more specialist troops, the better we do. You know, you think about El Salvador, you think about Colombia,

• 20:26Speaker 05

  you think about the Afghanistan after the, after 2014, as you put it, that we were continuing the war. You know, we were, we were holding ground, we were doing relatively well with very, with relatively low casualties because of our use of indigenous troops and, and special operations troops. It's a really, it's kind of an interesting comment. And yet, when we go in large scale conventional forces, we kind of make ourselves a target and operating in that sort of environment and counter insurgency does require, it requires specialist troops. People are going to disagree with me for that, but it does. You know, I think about our time, you know, I was with

• 21:10Speaker 05

  a conventional infantry unit, I was commander of a conventional infantry battalion before I, I went over to special operations. And yeah, we did, you know, of course, we, I like to say we did a great job and, and, but we paid heavily for it. And the average battalion going through Anbar back then was losing. You know, this is no exaggeration, between 25 and 45, sometimes higher than that, dead and several hundred wounded. And our gains were very temporary. But then going back as a commander of a siege of Sodif, where we took very few casualties, you know, we were able to have a tremendous effect on the Islamic State. Yes, different

• 21:53Speaker 05

  environment, but my point is simply this, that, that, that is, I think, an important thing to learn about going ahead, that, that the light touch, you know, is maybe reconsider going into Venezuela now, that it's, that the big invasions just don't work so well for us, right? But the influence, the putting in of highly trained teams to work with indigenous forces, that's worked pretty well over the years. Even in campaigns, things did not.

• 22:24Speaker 04

  I agree. In fact, I mean, we obviously have the best, most powerful military in the world. Conventional forces are what's going to be necessary to fight and win wars, right? But the long-term irregular warfare-type scenarios of counterinsurgency, uh, it's, it's in many ways counterproductive. It's counterproductive, uh, as it tends to build more insurgents. It's counterproductive because it's very, I mean, politically sensitive, which matters in a democracy. Uh, when you see, you know, young men and women coming back and wars that don't have an end date. Um, so it's, it's absolutely essential that we have the ability to do partner force operations

• 23:04Speaker 04

  in these long-term, uh, uh, low-intensity conflict, uh, although it don't look so low-intensity to the people that are in them. But, uh, you know what I mean? It's, it's imperative. So, and this is now, now you can see how this is coming back around on each other. In order to have the ability to do this, you have to have trust. If you don't have-

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• 24:20Speaker 04

  If you don't maintain your obligations, if it's simply everything's temporary and no commitment is valid, it's going to make it very difficult for the US to do- Uh, significant partner force operations in the future. And not that I'm running to get into the next one at all. But if it happens, we have to have the ability to do that. And it really is a combination of the, the advisors, for lack of a better description, and the force itself. It's a combination of the two. You can't just have like some remote uh, proxy force like Iran does and expect it to be that effective. It has to be the combination which fuses experience, operational planning, intelligence support, all these things, and with a unit that's willing and able

• 25:05Speaker 04

  to uh, have this joint mission. And of course, abide by human rights, just like it was a US uh, unit. Uh, but that's going to be necessary going forward. You never know what's going to happen. And we tend to find ourselves in more um, irregular wars than we do conventional wars, but we have to be ready for both. And I think, I think this kind of ties the two together. And I know, I think we're talking about Venezuela next. Hopefully, we're not talking about a long-term counterinsurgency operation there. We need to have the capacity in our, in our uh, in our quiver, if you will. Uh, going forward, you know, I was, I was there when we did the irregular war for economics. Uh, that was a big part of it. You know, we got to understand that

• 25:47Speaker 04

  um, the history of warfare is primarily, if you look at the majority of them, irregular. Right? So we have to be able to do both. And one's not better than the other or anything like that. Conventional forces, you know, if there's, you know, if there's a third world war, you know, the special operations folks like myself and Andy are going to be, I think, participants, but aside you know, compared to, you know, the, the major efforts are going to be conventional. But uh, the irregular wars, uh, we got to be ready to, to fight it. Part of it is having a uh, a word that you can trust from all the groups around the world.

• 26:25Speaker 05

  You know, the other thing that I felt was very interesting that you said, Mick, about the low number of incidents of green on blue, and by the way, for everyone, green on blue is when we refer to that as intentional fratricide, right, from our partner nation, indigenous forces, and that became a prevalent trend in Afghanistan, sadly, for a period of time towards the end of conventional force involvement, is that these advisor teams were taking casualties not from the Taliban, well, from hidden Taliban, as it were, among

• 27:05Speaker 05

  Afghan troops, and yet among special operations forces, those incidents were far lower. And I think, you know, what is different, I think, part of it is, and again, you hit on this, Mick, was just the nature of how we operate, the special operations forces operate deeply embedded in indigenous forces, they don't go home in the evening to a separate camp. You know, the contrast was clearly there in Afghanistan, you can look at the numbers and the fact that, yes, fratricide, it did occur on the special operations side, but

• 27:44Speaker 05

  it was at a lower level rate, and in Iraq, it was almost unheard of among special operations forces, and yet it did occur amongst some of the advisor teams, and certainly against conventional forces. I mean, in Mosul, 2005, Fob Marais, one of the worst suicide bombings in Iraq against US troops occurred, and sadly, an Iraqi soldier blew himself up in the mess hall on Fob Marais, killed 14 soldiers, number of contractors, and some locals.

• 28:24Speaker 05

  And yet, you know, I was in Mosul at the time, living in a ruined hospital with Iraqi, an Iraqi company with, you know, six other gringos and same, you know, literally living in the same room as these guys. And it never, it just never occurred to us, you know, even after that incident. And I, I think it gets to, you know, why, why am I talking about this? Because it gets into the nature of, of what special operations do, right? Our security is that, that trust, that, that sense of shared danger with people. And, and I know, for instance, serving Iraqi with an Iraqi battalion as an advisor, I know

• 29:08Speaker 05

  some of those dudes were bad dudes, but for some reason, they didn't try and kill us, you know, because we were maybe just too close to them. I don't know, but it didn't happen. But again, it gets back to this mentality of what is security, right? Security is not, is not, and the Israelis learning this, will learn this, have learned this. Security isn't putting yourself behind layers of security fences and high-tech automated weapons, et cetera, et cetera. Security comes from really understanding not just your adversary, but the, but, you know, the population, the people you're working with, what motivates them. And as hokey though it may sound, it comes with sharing their experiences and

• 29:53Speaker 05

  the danger with them. And the last thing I'll say on that is, so returning as a Sajid Sotov commander to Iraq in 2016, when there was this policy of remote advise and assist, I don't know if you remember that, Mick, you know, where you virtual advise and assist, right? You had this virtual kit that, that you could give your partner and, and they went on and fought the enemy, the Islamic State, and you stayed on the FOB and you could track them like it was a game, right? And you knew where the lead trace was so you could call in air support. And there were people who really thought that was going to work just as well as having soft teams. Moving with, living with Iraqi, you know, Iraqi and Kurdish security forces.

• 30:37Speaker 05

  And of course, we learned that, no, it doesn't. In the end, we ended up having to accompany them. And of course you do, and there's always going to be that human element. It's never going to be replaced by technology. And that is, you know, that's your security and that's your, that's your path to, to successfully in those environments.

• 30:56Speaker 04

  Yeah, and if I could, I'll throw in something for Dee here. There's a pretty famous episode in Greek history during the Peloponnesian War in Sicily, right? So Sicily was aligned with Sparta and the Athenians had decided to go take out basically a proxy or partner with Sparta. Sparta couldn't, you know, obviously was outnumbered during the whole Peloponnesian War, couldn't send too many. So they sent what would be, what we would call advisors, like six of them, right? And there's, there's a, it's actually written about, as the Athenians were coming up and

• 31:37Speaker 04

  they were trying to take the last, the last elevated area that the Sicilians were in control of, and then they saw the Scarlet Capes, right? They saw the Spartans standing there. And part of it was just already the Spartans had the reputation of, you know, the ultimate warrior. And part of it, they didn't know how much, how many more Spartans would be coming. But it completely changed the battle. It inspired the Sicilians. It, it challenged the fortitude of the Athenians who were slaughtering the Sicilians until then.

• 32:16Speaker 04

  And so I, I use that often because it really does, I think, show what advisors or special operation forces, Green Berets, SEALs, MARSOC, Raiders, paramilitary folks can do with a willing and capable. Indigenous partner force. And it's not new, obviously, that was the British war. But it has that effect. And I think we could do a lot more, which would save a lot of American lives. If we embrace that as one of our main models in a regular warfare. And it can be, it can play a part, obviously, in a substantial confessional fight, too. Right?

• 32:57Speaker 04

  Uh, cause that was, as we saw in the last 20 years, we had both going on at the same time. So it's almost always relevant. And I know this is, we've gotten now talking about partner forces, but it does have relevance to what we started, which is this.

• 33:11Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 33:12Speaker 04

  This event.

• 33:13Speaker 05

  Well, hugely. You know, and I think, I, I think conventional forces understand that. I, but, but they, but I don't think that, for instance, um. Army Marine Corps leadership. Has struck the right turn in how do you select and train these guys, right? It's not, any soldier marine can do this type of stuff. That's why special operations guys tend to be so good at it. They're so, but they're low density, high demand. So, you know, there have been efforts like building this S Fab brigades, which have now been. You know, that, that plan has been abandoned. And, um, in, in the Marine Corps, I know we.

• 33:56Speaker 04

  What does S Fab mean?

• 33:58Speaker 05

  Um, security force assistance, right? Brigades, so they were brigades whose sole mission was to do what we were talking about, working with indigenous forces. The British have formed a raider regiment and not a ranger regiment, right? Out of, um, you know, it's not, it, it's mission not the same as US raider regiment. Sorry. Okay. Ranger.

• 34:25Speaker 04

  Ranger.

• 34:26Speaker 05

  Um, I keep defaulting to the.

• 34:27Speaker 04

  Rangers do real well too. We kept, we include them.

• 34:30Speaker 05

  Yeah, I, but, um, you know, but it, they, they formed a ranger regiment out of three infantry battalions. And their purpose was security force assistance, which is, you know, working with foreign militaries. Because everyone realizes that, yeah, that's, that, that is one of the aspects, likely aspects, future war. And we could talk on this show about the rise of private military. Companies too, and the resurgence of private military companies across

• 35:03Speaker 05

  the battlefield, whether talking Ukraine, from my own experience, or, you know, most recently in Israel, because they fulfill a lot of, you know, a lot of functions.

• 35:14Speaker 05

  Of course, using soldiers to do the same thing is a little bit different. The governments are more skin in the game, but nevertheless, the principle is the same, that you're leveraging foreign forces to do, frankly, your dirty work, right? You to take the casualties with the brunt of the fighting.

• 35:35Speaker 05

  And it's, it's a good idea, but striking that right formula of using the right guys, because again, not every soldier or marine makes a good advisor. So you have to have some kind of selection process. Maybe it doesn't have to be as tight as the special operations selection process, but you need something there.

• 35:54Speaker 03

  There's a unit called, what's it, C S O R in Canada? I think they do fit in also like direct action. They're like a mix.

• 36:01Speaker 05

  Yes, Canadian Special Operations Regiment.

• 36:03Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 36:04Speaker 05

  Very, very similar, actually, in makeup to the Marine Raider Regiment.

• 36:13Speaker 05

  We,

• 36:15Speaker 05

  I had a contingent of those guys in the Siches, Sodif in Iraq. They're very, they're very good for Canadians.

• 36:23Speaker 03

  We just had a guy on too, a few weeks back on the Team House that was in C S O R, who was in, yeah, who was there.

• 36:31Speaker 03

  Also, if you guys are interested in learning more about

• 36:35Speaker 03

  the zero units or the omega teams or whatever, Jack Murphy and Sean Naylor wrote a pretty in-depth article about them on the high side, so you could check that out.

• 36:47Speaker 03

  No comment from Mick. I think Mick was commented in it, but he you didn't it was like you didn't do anything. It was like a normal, regular comment. You didn't confirm or deny anything.

• 37:00Speaker 03

  Yeah, so let's push on to Venezuela and what's going on there. It seems like, you know, every week we're we're hearing more and more that it's gonna happen. More staging happening. There were some pictures that came out today of some F-35s and stuff like that in Puerto Rico. President Trump tweeted out something that like, like, what is it? It was like an unofficial NOTAM. Basically, like, no one should be flying or doing anything near around the area of Venezuela.

• 37:31Speaker 03

  Where are we at with that? What's it look like? Is there any diplomatic talks? Why are we even doing this? But I mean, we've asked that question a million times.

• 37:39Speaker 05

  Yeah. Hey, have you noticed before Mick says something that's insightful and serious? Have you noticed, though, that when we talk about Venezuela, our numbers plummet? It's like, no one gives, no one gives a shit. I mean, we could be-

• 37:54Speaker 03

  I think the national security, like, people who are interested in this world, like, do give a shit, but I think for the vast majority of American citizens, they can give two fucks.

• 38:04Speaker 05

  Yeah, doesn't affect their lives.

• 38:05Speaker 03

  No.

• 38:06Speaker 04

  Only 30% support any military action in Venezuela.

• 38:13Speaker 04

  But the buildup is there, right? We've talked about it a lot, so I'll reiterate. Everything's set for some kind of action, and when you're making statements like closing the airspace over an entire country, one can expect that that means something, unless this is some giant bluff.

• 38:30Speaker 04

  We have also talked about how poorly run Venezuela is and how abhorrent Maduro is, which is all true.

• 38:39Speaker 04

  Just to give you an idea, uh, it should be one of the wealthiest countries in Latin America. Let has been said of that. They had eight million people had to leave the country because they couldn't find food. Right? So, uh, it is terribly run and, and Maduro's illegitimate. So if, if they were to uprise and install somebody uh, like the, the, the, uh, recent Nobel Peace Prize recipient, Maria Machado, that'd be great. Uh, I just don't know how we can necessarily orchestrate that unless that's what's going on right now behind the scenes. With, uh, you know, the clandestine diplomacy, if you want to call it that, probably led by the agency. Uh, if he leaves, then I think he will get credit. He'd be in the president will get credit for Oikoke.

• 39:22Speaker 04

  Uh, and that would be good for the people of Venezuela. Uh, if it doesn't work and, and you know, there's stuff on the internet saying that he is scared to try to leave because there's Cuban intelligence officers around him that won't let him. Uh, I don't know if that's true.

• 39:39Speaker 04

  Then it's either a big bluff or we do something. And I think the something is probably going to be limited to airstrikes. But it's important to note that, um, if we start, you know, attacking them, even if it's the drug infrastructure, uh, which could include ports, airports, uh, they might attack us, right? So conventionally, it's not even a match, but it's important to point out they do have uh, anti-ship missiles. Air launched from the SC30s, uh, I think they have KH31 alphas, which, um, are Russian-made supersonic launch from an aircraft.

• 40:24Speaker 04

  I think it's like 140 kilometer range and they do this weird deal where they, it's kind of like nap the earth or the ocean. It stays very close, so it makes it very difficult to intercept. And then as you get closer, it gets closer and closer to the water, right?

• 40:40Speaker 04

  They are effective against destroyers, which we have destroyers.

• 40:44Speaker 04

  I'm not an expert in that. If we have listeners that are, they should, hopefully they'll chime in and say, yeah, it's a threat, but it's not that big of a threat. I think from people I talk to that, they're like, yes, it is a threat. And if they launch them all at the same time, it could be problematic. But we have a lot of ways to mitigate it. But my point being is, we blow up a drug factory, they launch these anti-ship missiles. And there's also sea-based ones that they have, Iranians' versions.

• 41:12Speaker 04

  One destroyer's hit, casualties, Americans, that's how this escalates. We all know us. If we take casualties, we're not going to stop. We're not going to say, okay, let's, let's turn around and go. That's not the way America rolls.

• 41:28Speaker 04

  That's how this could escalate. So I would just highlight that, that is a potential. And if we are actually going to do any kind of ground-based operations with troops, potentially like special operations to apprehend Maduro, that brings a lot of risks too. A lot of risks, you know, there is, the place is completely apparently submerged in surface-to-air missiles, thanks to Russia. So that's also a significant issue. We dealt with that before. I'm not saying that means we don't go. But these are the risks that the administration is taking, especially with the level of support that you pointed out, the the American people and no authorization of Congress that I can see.

• 42:14Speaker 04

  So that's, that's, looks like where we're headed. You know, your guess is good as mine, but we see all the indicators. This is either a big bluff and hopefully it works, or they're going to have to transition into an actual air missile campaign or something to that effect in Venezuela. And that brings risk with it. I would, I think, you know, not that anybody's asking me if this is where we were headed, I would seriously talk about the consequences, the worst-case scenarios, and try to bring a US population on board rather than distract toward it.

• 42:53Speaker 05

  Yeah, it kind of gets back to the, the end of the day, what, what do we get out of it really? And, and it's a, I'm not arguing either way. I'm just, I don't see, I suppose I am. I mean, I don't see, I don't see solid American interests being forwarded. And as you pointed out, there's a significant risk.

• 43:16Speaker 05

  I mean, we've all, we've all been at the pointy end of American foreign policy before and, and sometimes, you know, sometimes when it's for a coherent purpose, of course, that's, that's the way it goes. And when you, when there are discernible American interests that justify that risk, but it's hard to, it's hard to discern what those interests are right now. They're not connected to the drug trade. Are we going to overturn an unpopular and tyrannical despot? Maybe, but we don't have a good history in doing that either. I mean, we can, we can overturn them, but we're not good at dealing what comes afterwards. And we just don't seem to be collectively learning that lesson.

• 43:58Speaker 03

  Right. And there's no guarantee that Machado is going to be like, uh, on a ticker tape parade and they're going to crown her queen. And everything is going to be perfect and democratic, right?

• 44:06Speaker 05

  Like, yeah.

• 44:07Speaker 04

  It'd probably be his henchmen to take over. So that's a, that's a very good point. The other, the other thing, of course, is if we go into a full conflict, our adversaries are going to make hay of it. So Russia, Iran, all of them. And the issues that we're concerned about Venezuela could likely intensify. Right. So they already have a significant humanitarian issue. Thanks to the, uh, the incompetence of the government, right? Forty percent at least are on humanitarian assistance of the country. That could go up to 80, right? If there's a actual conflict and what are they going to do? They're going to leave. Or are they going to try to come? Here. That's an issue that's caused the consternation against Madero.

• 44:49Speaker 04

  Potentially, a large scale conflict could enhance it and give our adversaries an opportunity to try to further embed themselves in a country in our hemisphere. So these are all, I mean, there's never going to be a right or a perfect decision in this complicated manner. But hopefully, all these factors are being considered. Uh, when it comes to, because this could go in the wrong way and right in it, even at the start, there doesn't seem to be a, uh, a US, uh, interest from the population, from the polls, in doing anything against them, because the, the poll question is simply military action, which could include just airstrikes for one day.

• 45:30Speaker 04

  Right? So, uh, this should probably be talked through and they should either gain, um, some support or rethink what they're doing. Obviously, I think stopping the drug flow is important, but this is well beyond that. Colombia, Peru, even Mexico are bigger contributors to the drug. And I don't think anybody's talking about going to war in all three of those countries.

• 45:58Speaker 03

  And yeah, you could just keep double tapping, uh, narco boats, you know, to stop the drug flow.

• 46:05Speaker 04

  That's gonna be, we have to see what the true facts of that. That's serious. A serious situation, I think that that should basically let the facts and it should be condemned.

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• 47:18Speaker 04

  ... Because that'd be condemning folks up and down the military chain of command. And I don't think that's fair to them, just based on...

• 47:25Speaker 05

  Yeah, yeah, because, you know, and I don't need, we don't need to go down this path five minutes from the end of the show. But this whole thing about following orders, legal, illegal, it's, one of the hardest parts about this topic is there isn't always a clear distinction between legal and an illegal order.

• 47:49Speaker 05

  I mean, there just isn't. You know, what, I mean, we've, there is when you look historically, right? Because the victor decides what is legal and what is not illegal. So quite rightly, and Mick, I know you saw this movie. I want to see it. You know, quite rightly, we held the Nuremberg Trials. And that was, and that was, that was good, right? Not just because we're the victors, but those were in accordance with international norms. And there are such a thing as international norms of behavior. And, and, you know, murdering people, killing unarmed civilians, killing innocents, killing prisoners, let alone, you know, what happened during the Holocaust. All those things are clearly on the dark side of good and bad, right?

• 48:33Speaker 05

  But there is definitely a gray area. And when you're working for, when you're serving the military of the United States of America, and your automatic default is that what you're going to be ordered to do is legal, it's not always easy to tell what is legal and what is not. We've dealt with this ourselves in our own recent history with enhanced interrogation. Okay, and I'm not, you know, I'm not taking sides on, on that. I'm saying that the Supreme Court came out and said subsequently that a whole bunch of stuff was illegal that at the time, people, some people thought was legal and were ordered to do, you know, so...

• 49:12Speaker 05

  It's not easy, and people need to be aware of that. It's not, you know, I think a lot of senior military leaders, I hope, are knowledgeable enough and think enough about that profession that that they know that there is that gap. There's that space where we are supposed to not be automatons and simply follow orders. There's supposed to be a space where we make that decision, deliberate decision, is this a legal ethical order, right? And that is why we're the United States of America, and that is why those of us who held commissions held commissions, because we're not automatons. We don't simply, we're not something you press the button, we do it.

• 49:53Speaker 05

  And if we don't do it, we're disloyal fucks and we get charged with treason. That's not the way the United States military works. It's immensely, it is a complex issue. So I just want to throw that out there without, without jumping on either side, just to say that in this debate right now about illegal and legal orders, it's clear to me that many people do not understand the issue.

• 50:19Speaker 04

  And if they're gonna do an inquiry into this from the Senate Armed Services Committee, I mean, that was said by both the chairman and

• 50:29Speaker 04

  vice chairman. So that should be what leads this, not just, in my opinion, speculation based on one.

• 50:37Speaker 03

  Yeah, it is good to see the Senate actually doing its fucking job for once.

• 50:43Speaker 04

  Oversight is supposed to be done over every element, really, especially in national security. You know, this Oversight Committee on Foreign Relations, Military Intel, and that's their job. Bipartisan review. And yeah, you're right, they need to, they need to do that, not just because there was an article written up, it's just in general.

• 51:03Speaker 03

  That's their job, yeah, right? It's what they're paid to do, a part of why they get, why they're on those committees and.

• 51:11Speaker 05

  Yeah. Congress is supposed to do many things constitutionally, right? I mean, they, they, they don't always, but I, I mean, I, I agree with you. The Senate is generally the, the more mature, obviously the more mature chamber, but they, you, you hope that Senate can be counted upon to carry out their constitutional duties regardless of, regardless of political affiliation.

• 51:39Speaker 03

  Sure. I mean, yeah, I brought it up because of, I brought it up because of like the, the vote that they did to not have a vote about.

• 51:47Speaker 05

  Yeah, we talked about that. Yeah.

• 51:49Speaker 03

  Yeah, that's why.

• 51:50Speaker 05

  And, and that's concerning because their role is oversight, their role is absolutely supposed to be a check on the power of the executive. I mean, that's part of, that's all part of our constitution, right? It's supposed to be messy and at times a seesaw. That, that was the intent of the founding fathers. I know that's an over, overused argument, but it's absolutely the case. We should be, we should be frightened by the prospect of a weak Congress, of a Congress that does not ever want to challenge the executive regardless of who's in power.

• 52:23Speaker 03

  Right on. Um, anything else, guys?

• 52:27Speaker 04

  That's it.

• 52:29Speaker 03

  I want everyone listening in Washington, do us a favor. I want you to like and subscribe. I want you to rate it five stars on Apple or, uh, or Spotify. I want you to check out Mick's new podcast, The Pub on the Porch, Applied Stoicism. Those links are in the description as well. Andy Milburn's got a great book, When the Tempest Gathers. That link is also in the description. And you two are working on something new that should be coming out soon. And I'm excited about that. So I don't know if you want to say anything now or we'll hold it for later. It's up to you guys.

• 52:58Speaker 04

  Yeah. Let's, let's get it done first. So we're talking about, yeah, we are working on it. It's, it's, it's real. We're working on, uh, it's a regular warfare, um, study.

• 53:13Speaker 03

  Yeah, so you know, keep your eyes on, uh, ears off for that. We'll obviously let you guys know when it comes out and uh, thanks guys. This is great.

• 53:21Speaker 05

  We're, we're also awaiting our invitation to the Team House Christmas party.

• 53:27Speaker 03

  There is no Team House Christmas party this year. Yeah. I don't know.

• 53:34Speaker 03

  Just decided against it. You guys wouldn't have came anyway. You're halfway around the world. Mick is too. He's in Montana.

• 53:39Speaker 05

  Virtually. How the mighty fallen and the weapons of war perish.

• 53:46Speaker 03

  Thanks guys.

• 53:46Speaker 04

  You guys are gonna have to come out here one time and do it at the Whitefish Fiat, the FW.

• 53:50Speaker 03

  I'd love to.

• 53:51Speaker 04

  Podcast from the Whitefish VF.

• 53:55Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 53:55Speaker 04

  It's a crazy bunch.

• 53:57Speaker 05

  I bet, I bet it is. No shortage of uh, of snow either, I would imagine.

• 54:03Speaker 04

  No, not at all.

• 54:03Speaker 05

  Is that snow in the background?

• 54:05Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 54:05Speaker 04

  Oh, yeah.

• 54:06Speaker 05

  Uh, great.

• 54:08Speaker 03

  Everyone must be happy in Montana. Thanks Mick. Thank you, Andy.

• 54:12Speaker 05

  Alright, fellas.

• 54:14Jack Murphy?

  Hey guys, I want to tell all of you today about a new newsletter that we're launching that encompasses both the Team House Podcast, the Eyes On Podcast, and the High Side News Outlet, which I run with Sean Naylor. Uh, the newsletter is gonna be once a week. It's gonna come into your inbox and you're gonna get the most current podcasts on Eyes On and the Team House and whatever's topical or current on the High Side. So it's another way for us to get the information out to you as social media algorithms are pretty iffy and you never really know what you're gonna get. Um, so this is a once a week email. It'll slide into your inbox and it will have, you know, the greatest hits of that week.

• 54:55Speaker 09

  It's really good, man. I'm checking it out.

• 54:58Jack Murphy?

  The website for it is teamhousepodcast.kit.com/join. Teamhousepodcast.kit.com/join. Uh, go there and you enter into your email list or you enter your email into uh, the little thing on the website and you're good to go and that'll be it. Um, so we really appreciate your support and hope you'll consider signing up.

• 55:23Jack Murphy?

  The link will also be down in the description if you're looking for it there.

• 55:26Speaker 09

  And that's Team House Podcast.

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• 1:02:11Speaker 11

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• 1:02:34Speaker 01

  Spinquest is a free-to-play social casino. Void where prohibited. Visit Spinquest.com for more details.

• 1:02:40Speaker 10

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• 1:03:11Speaker 12

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• 1:03:42Speaker 00

  Hanging out at the pool is great. Relaxing and playing Vegas-style games on my phone at the same time. Drinking one hand and a blackjack in the other. It's all at Spinquest. Over a thousand games, including your favorite slots and table games. Be cool with this summer special. New players get $30 coin packs for 10 at Spinquest.com.

• 1:04:05Speaker 01

  Spinquest is a free-to-play social casino. Void where prohibited. Visit Spinquest.com for more details.