The Final Best Picture Power Rankings and a ‘Sinners’ Second Look With Autumn Durald Arkapaw!

Sean and Amanda open today’s jam-packed show by covering the results of the BAFTA Awards and highlighting some key takeaways, including Sean Penn's and Wunmi Mosaku’s wins (2:30). Then, they discuss a new release, ‘How to Make a Killing,’ starring Glen Powell, and work through why the movie was dumped (and then bombed) and why they found it to be pretty solid (14:47). Next, they take a second look at ‘Sinners’ and revisit all of the things that make it so special, including the magical moviemaking, its sharp understanding and rendering of sex and desire, and its brilliant use of music (25:32). Later, they update their Best Picture Power Rankings (1:06:37). Finally, Sean is joined by Academy Award–nominated cinematographer Autumn Durald Arkapaw to nerd out and get into the nitty-gritty of aspect ratios and anamorphic glass, discuss where ‘Sinners’ fits into her career at large, and explain why she enjoys shooting difficult scenes that require problem-solving (1:29:58). Hosts: Sean Fennessey and Amanda Dobbins Guest: Autumn Durald Arkapaw Producer: Jack Sanders Production Support: Lucas Cavanagh A State Farm agent can help you choose the coverage you need. Like a good neighbor, State Farm is there.® Drivers wanted. Learn more at vw.com Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Speaker 00

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• 1:46Sean Fennessey?

  I'm Sean Fennessey.

• 1:47Amanda Dobbins?

  I'm Amanda Dobbins.

• 1:47Sean Fennessey?

  And this is the Big Picture Right Conversation Show about the home stretch. Today on the show, we will revisit Sinners, the most nominated movie in the history of the Academy Awards nearly one year after its release. We will construct our very last Best Picture power rankings of the season and discuss the BAFTA results from over the weekend. Those crazy Brits, they did some stuff with their award show. Later in the show, I have a conversation with Autumn Dural. Arkapaw, the Oscar nominated cinematographer of Sinners. It's her second collaboration with Ryan Coogler. Autumn has had a fascinating path to this moment. And we discussed a whole lot of stuff, including the technical aspects of her work on Sinners, her arc as a cinematographer. We talked about cameras, lenses, aspect ratios, all your favorite stuff.

• 2:27Amanda Dobbins?

  No, I actually am very excited to listen to it because Sinners is a film that looks good.

• 2:30Sean Fennessey?

  That's true.

• 2:31Amanda Dobbins?

  In a, in a time when most don't. So I would like to hear what she has to say.

• 2:34Sean Fennessey?

  Autumn, very smart and confident guest. One of the better conversations we've had here recently. I hope you will stick around. She's already made history. She's the first woman of color nominated for best cinematography at the Academy Awards, which is shameful. But she also has a chance to win. And so we will talk about her chances there, too. But first, let's talk about the BAFTAs right after this.

• 2:53Amanda Dobbins?

  This episode of The Big Picture is presented by State Farm.

• 2:56Sean Fennessey?

  You know those friends who show up for whatever you're into? The ones who debate which superhero universe is better or binge true crime documentaries with you at three in the morning? Those friends are gold.

• 3:05Amanda Dobbins?

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• 3:16Sean Fennessey?

  Like a good neighbor, State Farm is there. Okay.

• 3:20Amanda Dobbins?

  Did I throw you off there?

• 3:21Sean Fennessey?

  Nope, you were great.

• 3:22Amanda Dobbins?

  Okay, thanks so much.

• 3:23Sean Fennessey?

  You're letting me stretch out and close me in as well.

• 3:26Amanda Dobbins?

  I love hearing about lenses when Autumn D'Arlo Arkapaw or Ben Affleck talk about them.

• 3:31Sean Fennessey?

  Yeah. So. When a woman or a man you want to be near. When it's me, not so much.

• 3:36Amanda Dobbins?

  I saw he was at the golf.

• 3:38Sean Fennessey?

  He was at the golf, over the weekend. Yeah, Riviera. Yeah, I didn't see any of the golf this weekend, unfortunately. I did see the hockey. Did you see the hockey?

• 3:45Amanda Dobbins?

  I did see, I saw the hockey. And.

• 3:48Sean Fennessey?

  USA, huh? What do you know?

• 3:49Amanda Dobbins?

  I got this.

• 3:50Sean Fennessey?

  We still got the juice.

• 3:51Amanda Dobbins?

  Broken clock, right? Right? Once a day.

• 3:54Sean Fennessey?

  Yeah.

• 3:54Amanda Dobbins?

  While my children are watching.

• 3:55Sean Fennessey?

  First time in 46 years, the USA hockey was right. And we're happy to see it. Okay, BAFTAs.

• 4:01Amanda Dobbins?

  Yeah.

• 4:01Sean Fennessey?

  So, let's just start with the, with the big award. One battle after another one, best film. We're looking very closely at this final corridor of Guild and international awards, because this is the first of the next big three, which is of course, uh, the Actor Awards next Sunday.

• 4:17Amanda Dobbins?

  Of course.

• 4:18Sean Fennessey?

  And the PGAs next Saturday. And then all the precursors, for the most part, are done.

• 4:22Amanda Dobbins?

  And, and voting begins.

• 4:24Sean Fennessey?

  And voting will begin. And one battle won. And we're gonna talk about Sinners. And one of the reasons why we wanted to revisit Sinners was you hadn't seen the film in full. Uh, one of the other reasons why was because it's just, it's now become this.

• 4:36Amanda Dobbins?

  Not on purpose. And I'd like to talk about some changes that they made that I thought were very smart.

• 4:42Sean Fennessey?

  We can do that. Um, but one battle winning here, what does, what does that tell you? Anything? Nothing?

• 4:48Amanda Dobbins?

  I think we're focusing, I, I think we're stirring up intrigue in the wrong categories. I, I, and I would just wanted to propose that to you. I still, I still don't feel a hundred percent about one battle after, one battle after another over Sinners and Best Picture. I do think that that could go either way. But what the BAFTAs said to me were that pretty much every acting category, except for actress, is open.

• 5:14Sean Fennessey?

  Yes.

• 5:14Amanda Dobbins?

  I think some are more open than others. I think that the BAFTAs are not always the most predictive and can get a little silly. Uh, or not silly.

• 5:25Sean Fennessey?

  Even in Best Picture, I think in Best Film, they've only matched two out of the last 14 years. So like, it's not a historically predictive race. Except maybe for Below the Line. I do think Below the Line shows us the way in a lot of these races. But you're right about the acting races.

• 5:39Amanda Dobbins?

  Yeah.

• 5:40Sean Fennessey?

  Everything is up in the air right now.

• 5:42Amanda Dobbins?

  So my response to this slate was not, oh, it's a lock for best for one battle, but more, I haven't spent enough time worrying about supporting actor and supporting actress and maybe even actor, which I have been flummoxed about. And don't like feel totally certain. And again, there's, there, there are no conclusive results at this point. Next weekend, I think, with the, the PGAs and the actors. Will help.

• 6:10Sean Fennessey?

  It will help.

• 6:11Amanda Dobbins?

  In different categories, but weird things can still happen. You're right.

• 6:14Sean Fennessey?

  There's all these variables that are going on in the acting races that have made this. I thought this was going to be one of the most boring Oscar seasons in years. And you, you heard me in January and December being like, oh, another round. And now it's turning out to be, or at least seemingly very interesting. We might end up with Timothy Chalamet, Stellan Skarsgård, Tiana Taylor, and Jessie Buckley in the acting wins. And then that'll be like, okay, well, that's more or less what I thought was going to happen in November. But as we saw on Sunday, Wonmi Masaku won Supporting Actress for Sinners, which is fascinating. She's also nominated at SAG, right?

• 6:47Amanda Dobbins?

  Yes.

• 6:47Sean Fennessey?

  So that's also notable. In Supporting Actor, Sean Penn won. Now, I've been nudging you on this a little bit.

• 6:55Amanda Dobbins?

  Yeah, no, I know.

• 6:56Sean Fennessey?

  Over the last few months.

• 6:56Amanda Dobbins?

  I know, and I, I saw your posting.

• 6:58Sean Fennessey?

  Yeah, I posted about it, you know, I've been thinking about it.

• 7:00Amanda Dobbins?

  When did you post that? Because I, we had a lovely Saturday afternoon at, Sunday afternoon at your home.

• 7:07Sean Fennessey?

  Oh, yeah.

• 7:07Amanda Dobbins?

  And then I saw that you posted and I was like, were you?

• 7:10Sean Fennessey?

  It was in transit from the Huntington Gardens where we celebrated the Lunar New Year.

• 7:15Amanda Dobbins?

  Okay, oh.

• 7:16Sean Fennessey?

  With my family and my sister Cara, who is in town, which is great. And between that and, and the, and the barbecue at our house.

• 7:22Amanda Dobbins?

  Okay.

• 7:23Sean Fennessey?

  Just some, just some stray thoughts I had.

• 7:25Amanda Dobbins?

  And I just, I didn't check till later that night. Because I really thought you were like hiding at the, you know, in the grill. Or being like, no, I'm getting more hot dog buns.

• 7:33Sean Fennessey?

  Something I know you relate to, classic thing where, um, when you've got extended family in town, they can watch your kid for a minute. And then you might have a thought about an acting race. And I had a thought and I just, I threw it up on X.com. Sean Penn winning is just really interesting. I thought Stellan Skarsgård would have won here. I have thought he was the frontrunner in this race. You know, you've been banging the drum for Benicio del Toro for some time. There are, there have been some people who have been speculating that the Penn win indicates maybe weirdly an opportunity for Delroy Lindo, because there's no consensus here. And so maybe the one battle guys cancel each other out.

• 8:07Amanda Dobbins?

  Okay.

• 8:07Sean Fennessey?

  Paul Meskell not winning here is interesting. He's not represented at the Academy Awards. This race is wide open. My take, my case for Penn, as I've mentioned before, is just sure he's won twice, but he's one of the most revered actors of his generation. He may not be like the most politically beloved figure in the Academy, but I think to multiple generations of actors, he's seen as like a real titan. And also, the Academy Awards loves a villain. You know, this is the Academy that gave Heath Ledger for the Joker, the Oscar.

• 8:37Amanda Dobbins?

  Right.

• 8:37Sean Fennessey?

  You know, they gave Javier Bardem the Oscar. Not, not, not a villain in the race.

• 8:42Amanda Dobbins?

  Yeah, exactly. Which, you know, depending on where you're sitting, like, like maybe Sean Penn is, again, according to your-

• 8:48Sean Fennessey?

  A villainous character.

• 8:48Amanda Dobbins?

  -politics or your just enforcement of Los Angeles smoking indoors laws.

• 8:53Sean Fennessey?

  Yeah. He plays fast and loose. Frankly, I love Sean Penn as an actor, and I think he's amazing in one battle. It's a very showy performance, a very noisy performance.

• 9:03Sean Fennessey?

  But, you know, it's like, that's what you, Christoph Waltz from Glorious Basters, that's what wins here. It's, it's very memorable people who are right outside the edge of the center role in the film, who tend to drive a lot of action. That's what often wins in this category. It would be pretty wild for Sean Penn to become one of the very few actors to win three Academy Awards, but Frances McDormand just did it a few years ago.

• 9:25Amanda Dobbins?

  Yeah, and it would make sense in terms of how Hollywood and actors feel about him and the way that the Oscars do tend to reward certain types of performances and certain types of people. We haven't said, so Alordi still in the mix? Yes or no?

• 9:44Sean Fennessey?

  I think he's in play for SAG. Yeah. I think that could happen.

• 9:47Amanda Dobbins?

  And then if that happens at SAG, that's a real boost in terms of-

• 9:52Sean Fennessey?

  SAG is also on Netflix, and that's a Netflix movie. And also, the people who vote in SAG, remember, are not just actors, they're also like weathermen and influencers, like, because it's SAG-AFTRA.

• 10:01Amanda Dobbins?

  And you?

• 10:02Sean Fennessey?

  And, well, I'm not in SAG, no, thankfully. Although, we should probably be in SAG at this point.

• 10:05Amanda Dobbins?

  Among other things, yeah.

• 10:08Sean Fennessey?

  But, uh, yeah, I mean, I, I think Alordi could definitely win there.

• 10:11Amanda Dobbins?

  Yeah. Who is the fifth person? Who am I not thinking of? Stellan, Benicio, Sean, Alordi, and-

• 10:19Amanda Dobbins?

  Who is our fifth person who's literally, who's just not gonna win?

• 10:22Sean Fennessey?

  Well, Stellan Skarsgård's not nominated at SAG even.

• 10:24Amanda Dobbins?

  Right. No, I meant at the Oscars. Who is the, who is it? It's not Paul Meskell? Delroy Lindo, of course. That's what you just, you already said, Delroy Lindo. We were talking about it, of course. Um, okay, so it could go anywhere.

• 10:35Sean Fennessey?

  Any of them could win.

• 10:36Amanda Dobbins?

  It could go anywhere.

• 10:37Sean Fennessey?

  That's cool. That's great.

• 10:39Amanda Dobbins?

  I think, it's probably not Benicio at this point, which is sad, that he had like a real critics run and then,

• 10:44Sean Fennessey?

  He did.

• 10:44Amanda Dobbins?

  and then it fell off.

• 10:46Sean Fennessey?

  He did. I, I'm not ruling anything out.

• 10:48Amanda Dobbins?

  Okay.

• 10:49Sean Fennessey?

  I think this is gonna be really fun to predict this year. Um, supporting actress similarly is wide open. You know, the, the, the two actresses from Sentimental Value are not represented at SAG.

• 10:59Amanda Dobbins?

  Yeah.

• 10:59Sean Fennessey?

  You know, there was a moment where we were like, oh, it's Inga Ibsdottir-Lilius. So, you know, now it's like, does, could Winmi Masaku win in this category?

• 11:05Amanda Dobbins?

  I think so.

• 11:06Sean Fennessey?

  We can talk about her character when we talk about that film. Seems like that could happen.

• 11:09Amanda Dobbins?

  Yes, especially if she goes BAFTAs and then SAG Actor Awards, whatever we're calling them, and then, um, and straight into, to voting.

• 11:19Sean Fennessey?

  Yes.

• 11:19Amanda Dobbins?

  Um, and, and I think also if that happens, then you could feel the momentum also saying, why not Delroy Lindo?

• 11:27Sean Fennessey?

  Yes.

• 11:28Amanda Dobbins?

  And then, and then I do think that has a real up the ballot swing for Sinners.

• 11:34Sean Fennessey?

  That would be one of the ways in which you could see that it is happening. And we'll know because those are two of the earliest awards that are given out. If we get two Sinners Acting Awards in the first 20 minutes of the telecast.

• 11:44Amanda Dobbins?

  Yeah.

• 11:44Sean Fennessey?

  Everybody's gonna spend the next three hours being like, well, Sinners did it.

• 11:47Amanda Dobbins?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 11:48Sean Fennessey?

  So that'll be really interesting. So Sinners won three BAFTAs, which is, I think, more than I would have guessed. I don't think I would have guessed that, uh, with a Winmi Masaku. I didn't do any predictions for BAFTA, but

• 11:57Amanda Dobbins?

  Yeah.

• 11:57Sean Fennessey?

  score makes sense.

• 11:58Amanda Dobbins?

  Mm-hmm.

• 11:58Sean Fennessey?

  Um, original screenplay does make sense to me. I would not have guessed that Winmi Masaku would win, but that feels open. And then let's talk about actor.

• 12:06Amanda Dobbins?

  Yeah.

• 12:07Sean Fennessey?

  So Robert Aramio won for I Swear, which is a film about a man, based on a true story about a man who, um, has Tourette's and his family. Um, and this film won multiple awards at this award show. It's obviously not been represented at any of the awards show we've been talking about over the last few months. And so

• 12:24Amanda Dobbins?

  It's not out here in the US until April.

• 12:26Sean Fennessey?

  April, that's right. So we haven't even seen it yet. I've heard it's quite good. Um, I'm curious to see it. But this, this is just another wrinkle in a race that like, I think maybe we thought was over two months ago.

• 12:35Amanda Dobbins?

  Yeah.

• 12:35Sean Fennessey?

  And now is not. And now is Timothy Chalamet a little weak? Then or at least weaker than we thought, you know, Marty Supreme won zero awards last night. I think it went 0 for 11, which is not great. And like, is Marty Supreme suddenly going to become the Irishman of this year? That's, that's in play. Um, we shall see. I, I think, does it open the possibility for Wagner Mora?

• 12:58Amanda Dobbins?

  Well, the thing is, Wagner Mora is also not nominated at SAG Actor Awards.

• 13:02Sean Fennessey?

  Yes.

• 13:03Amanda Dobbins?

  So it's, if, I think it closes the door for Wagner Mora.

• 13:08Sean Fennessey?

  Really?

• 13:09Amanda Dobbins?

  Is what I think personally. I could be wrong. And I, you and I have both been wrong, uh, speaking against the power of Brazil many times on this podcast.

• 13:17Sean Fennessey?

  Yeah. I've spoken no words against Brazil and I never will.

• 13:20Amanda Dobbins?

  But he didn't get BAFTA and he's not eligible. He's not nominated at SAG.

• 13:26Sean Fennessey?

  Yeah.

• 13:27Amanda Dobbins?

  So he's not going to be in front of people again.

• 13:31Sean Fennessey?

  The other thing is that sentimental value won international feature at BAFTA, which is also, you know, a challenge for the secret agent, which I, I think I thought was going to be a little bit stronger through this race. And I think we talked about that as, at, at the Golden Globes.

• 13:43Amanda Dobbins?

  Yeah.

• 13:43Sean Fennessey?

  But this has really been moving around. My gut still tells me it's still Timothy Chalamet. The one thing against that, I think, is that no person since whatever it is, 1990, I think, is when the SAG Awards started, um, has, has won two years in a row. And so Chalamet won last year. So it would be unprecedented for him to win. We will see in a week from now. Um, Jessie Buckley, turtles all the way down, man.

• 14:05Amanda Dobbins?

  Yeah.

• 14:06Sean Fennessey?

  She's just, she's, this is one of the most dominant performances in an, uh, in an awards campaign that I've ever seen. Um, we, I think people knew the moment they saw the movie nine, nine months ago, um, that this was over. And that's really interesting. Below the line stuff, you know, I think one battle winning at cinematography is interesting, particularly because, I don't know if we've ever talked about this, but you know, Michael Bauman is the credited cinematographer. He is the cinematographer of the film. And On the previous Paul Thomas Anderson movie, he was co-credited as a cinematographer with Paul Thomas Anderson. And on the previous Paul Thomas Anderson film, Michael Baumann worked as a gaffer on that film, or maybe as like a coordinator. But PTA got the cinematography credit.

• 14:49Amanda Dobbins?

  Right.

• 14:49Sean Fennessey?

  And so along with Colin Anderson, who's this camera operator, who you may have heard Ben Affleck talking about in his conversations with Josh Safdie. Colin Anderson also worked on Marty Supreme. Those three guys make this kind of three-headed monster of cinematography, even though Baumann, who I've heard is great, and actually Matt Johnson from Nirvana, the band, the movie was here talking about it because he shot his new movie, Tony, with him. But anyway, awarding this group as opposed to an individual is kind of fascinating. If indeed Baumann goes on to win the Oscar, I have been thinking it's going to be Autumn Durald Arkapaw. I believe she's the favorite in the Oscar race.

• 15:25Amanda Dobbins?

  Yes, no, I have as well. But I mean, it is, Sinners did win three awards at the BAFTAs. But, you know, one battle, one best picture, best director, and cinematography, and did PTA one adapted screenplay.

• 15:39Sean Fennessey?

  He did.

• 15:40Amanda Dobbins?

  Yeah, so there is still.

• 15:41Sean Fennessey?

  And editing as well.

• 15:42Amanda Dobbins?

  Right, there is a real strength there, above and below the line, even if it was overlooked. And you throw in Sean Penn, and you're like, oh, okay, there is a lot of enthusiasm for this.

• 15:55Sean Fennessey?

  Hmm, yeah, it's interesting. Couple of awards for Frankenstein, of course, which we think we'll see at the Academy Awards. Production design, makeup and hair, costume design. F1 for sound.

• 16:04Amanda Dobbins?

  Yeah, vroom, vroom.

• 16:06Sean Fennessey?

  Makes sense, can see that. Special visual effects, Avatar Fire and Ash, big deal.

• 16:10Amanda Dobbins?

  Yeah.

• 16:11Sean Fennessey?

  Hmm, okay, we'll save the rest of our conversation when we get into our best picture power rankings. Let's talk about a new release.

• 16:18Amanda Dobbins?

  Mm-hmm.

• 16:20Sean Fennessey?

  It kind of flew under the radar. And it flew under the radar because it got dumped. Fascinatingly dumped. We can talk about why it's been dumped. I think you and I kind of landed in the same place with this movie. So the movie is How to Make a Killing. It's the new film from John Patton Ford, who wrote and directed a movie a few years ago called Emily, the Criminal, which you and I both enjoyed. Who was the star of that movie? Why is it?

• 16:40Amanda Dobbins?

  Aubrey Plaza.

• 16:41Sean Fennessey?

  Aubrey Plaza, thank you.

• 16:42Amanda Dobbins?

  Theo Rossi, I believe, was the supporting performance that we loved.

• 16:45Sean Fennessey?

  He is great.

• 16:45Amanda Dobbins?

  I think we gave a, like, a alternative big pick to Theo Rossi.

• 16:49Sean Fennessey?

  We did. This new movie is a kind of soft adaptation or inspiration off of the 1949 British film Kind Hearts and Coronets, which is kind of a caper comedy classic starring Alec Guinness, which is also inspired by a 1907 novel called Israel Rank: The Autobiography of a Criminal. This new movie, of course, stars our guy, Glenn Powell, Margaret Qualley, Jessica Henwick, Bill Camp, Zach Woods, Topher Grace, Ed Harris, really good cast. It's an 824 movie, and the premise is as follows: Disowned at birth by his wealthy family, Beckett Redfellow, great name, will stop at nothing to reclaim his inheritance, no matter how many relatives stand in his way. So, not a lot of people saw this movie. It opened in fewer than 2,000 theaters, despite its wide release status.

• 17:34Sean Fennessey?

  What did you think of How to Make a Killing?

• 17:36Amanda Dobbins?

  Listen, I called my shot in 2016, called it again in 2018. I like watching Glenn Powell. I really, I do. And it's been interesting to watch him try to find the right roles for him. And I think that this one is closer than some recent choices, specifically The Running Man, in which it has a fair amount in common.

• 17:59Sean Fennessey?

  Yep.

• 18:01Amanda Dobbins?

  And maybe not 100% there, but he's watchable. I was rooting for him despite the circumstances of the film, which the film needs to succeed. And then I really like John Patton-Forten. I think he has a real knack for what you could dismiss as like another Eat the Rich movie and, you know, top line.

• 18:23Sean Fennessey?

  Has some of that element, yeah.

• 18:25Amanda Dobbins?

  Like, many rich people get creatively murdered. But is way more specifically observed. I think he really understands.

• 18:36Amanda Dobbins?

  The distance from that world that his characters feel and the anxiety and the anger and can also and also has a sense of humor about the very rich people, even as he convincingly portrays that they are ruining like society at large and also all of our insides.

• 18:56Sean Fennessey?

  Mm hmm.

• 18:57Amanda Dobbins?

  So I I thought it was strange and worked and I and I liked it.

• 19:02Sean Fennessey?

  Yeah, I think it's pretty good. I'll start with the negatives.

• 19:05Amanda Dobbins?

  Yeah.

• 19:06Sean Fennessey?

  There's an inherent tonal clash that is a little hard to navigate. Because it is a movie about murder and it is also a farce, but also feels like a kind of deeply felt story about class.

• 19:16Amanda Dobbins?

  Mm hmm.

• 19:17Sean Fennessey?

  There are times when you're like, how seriously am I supposed to be taking this? Like, a movie that features both the Zach Woods character.

• 19:22Amanda Dobbins?

  Yeah.

• 19:23Sean Fennessey?

  And also the like, absolute misery tragedy near the end of the film.

• 19:28Amanda Dobbins?

  Mm hmm.

• 19:29Sean Fennessey?

  It's a little bit like lumpen in places and you can tell that they like, he didn't really totally get his arms around the tone of the material. That being said. Um, I thought I thought it went down very easy.

• 19:41Amanda Dobbins?

  Yeah.

• 19:42Sean Fennessey?

  You know what I mean?

• 19:43Amanda Dobbins?

  Like, that's the thing.

• 19:44Sean Fennessey?

  It's very enjoyable to just hang out with this movie for me. And I've been a little surprised by the mixedness response to it because it is another example of I'm like, I just want like 25 of these a year.

• 19:53Amanda Dobbins?

  Yeah.

• 19:54Sean Fennessey?

  Um, and it's good star part. I think Margaret Qualley is maybe overdoing it a touch in the movie and that kind of weighs it down a little bit.

• 20:00Amanda Dobbins?

  But that is also what she is cast to do.

• 20:05Sean Fennessey?

  Yeah.

• 20:06Amanda Dobbins?

  In the movie, so I try not to hold it against her specifically, but you know.

• 20:09Sean Fennessey?

  I like her, but she's really hit or miss as a performer.

• 20:11Amanda Dobbins?

  And it's she is just always, oh, Margaret Qualley is here doing Margaret Qualley stuff.

• 20:15Sean Fennessey?

  Um, it can be a bit distracting in a movie like this.

• 20:18Amanda Dobbins?

  She is very beautiful and you know, they have her in just abs like head to toe, very tacky Chanel, like old Chanel, not new Matthew Chanel and which she.

• 20:28Sean Fennessey?

  Real clueless style era.

• 20:29Amanda Dobbins?

  But it is very funny and purposeful and she like has a relationship with them. So I do think most of it is like real and purposeful.

• 20:36Sean Fennessey?

  Knowing, yeah.

• 20:37Amanda Dobbins?

  Yeah.

• 20:39Amanda Dobbins?

  So that's what she's there to do.

• 20:40Sean Fennessey?

  Mm hmm.

• 20:41Amanda Dobbins?

  And it uses some of the Margaret Qualley-ness, but I, I agree. I wasn't particularly, it, it felt like a sideshow.

• 20:48Sean Fennessey?

  Yeah, I, it's too bad because the movie kind of starts to turn on her character and that. I, I think that's why the movie's getting dinged. Through the first hour, I was like, why is this movie being dumped?

• 20:56Amanda Dobbins?

  Yeah.

• 20:56Sean Fennessey?

  I was like, this is very good.

• 20:57Amanda Dobbins?

  Agreed.

• 20:58Sean Fennessey?

  And it's a, I agree with you that it is a much closer, it's closer to Hitman Glenn Powell. You know, where it's like, he wants to be able to be a little fungible with his like, you know, his costumes and how he hides.

• 21:09Amanda Dobbins?

  He doesn't get full, full Halloween costumes, but they do let him wear a beanie for a while.

• 21:14Sean Fennessey?

  Yeah.

• 21:15Amanda Dobbins?

  Even while watching it.

• 21:16Sean Fennessey?

  Aviator suit with the plane sequence.

• 21:18Amanda Dobbins?

  With this beanie that you keep wearing. And then I was like, oh, right. It's because Glenn really wants a costume.

• 21:22Sean Fennessey?

  He likes to dress up.

• 21:23Amanda Dobbins?

  It's okay.

• 21:24Sean Fennessey?

  I think he's pretty charming and I think more or less expresses the gravity of it. Um, how did you feel about the framing device where he's sort of the confessional to the priest behind bars?

• 21:35Amanda Dobbins?

  I mean, the first two minutes is a real, uh oh, this is, we're, we're taping this together with the.

• 21:41Sean Fennessey?

  Voiceover, there's a framing device.

• 21:43Amanda Dobbins?

  And also, and like the framing device is that he's on death row. And I just, you know, I don't believe in the death penalty. So I was. I was just mad. I was like, oh, I've got to do this. But it, again, it goes down so smooth and it is like a very functional framing device.

• 21:58Sean Fennessey?

  Yeah.

• 21:58Amanda Dobbins?

  And I think like Glenn Powell narrates the, it's a good voiceover performance.

• 22:04Sean Fennessey?

  It is.

• 22:05Amanda Dobbins?

  And so at some point you just stop asking questions. You're like, sure, like I'll go along with this. And, um, and I don't, it didn't feel that scotch taping. I think it was doing a little bit of work, pulling the tone together. In a way that held for me, I think, until Margaret Qualley's character has to really do whatever she's doing.

• 22:26Sean Fennessey?

  Yeah. My friend, Chris Rosen reviewed the movie on Letterboxd and he was like, this is a September movie. This isn't a February movie. And I thought that was a good insight where like, there is a certain kind of like. It's not an awards film. It's not a blockbuster. It's got, it's just kind of like a character piece that is fun to hang out with. And the movie, I can see why the movie was kind of set aside. And maybe, I'm sure maybe Glenn is not thrilled with how it turned out or whatever, but I, I think it's pretty solid. And it's in that like, it's a six or a seven. And sometimes a six or a seven is a good time. And I like it a lot. I think Zach Woods is hilarious. His character is so real.

• 23:03Amanda Dobbins?

  Yeah.

• 23:03Sean Fennessey?

  That's a dude I'm sure we knew in Brooklyn, which is like a nepo kid who thinks he's an artist.

• 23:08Amanda Dobbins?

  What's your day job?

• 23:10Sean Fennessey?

  Empty, plastic bag. Like he has no ideas. I really enjoyed him. I didn't know that the other, the other cousin was, was Jude Law's son.

• 23:18Amanda Dobbins?

  Yeah.

• 23:18Sean Fennessey?

  Raph Law. Is Raph short for Rafferty? Raphael?

• 23:23Amanda Dobbins?

  I think so. Rafferty? Yes.

• 23:25Sean Fennessey?

  Rafferty?

• 23:25Amanda Dobbins?

  Let's double, double check this right now. Rafferty Raph. Jellico Frost Law is the fall.

• 23:31Sean Fennessey?

  Jellico Frost Law? What in the world?

• 23:35Amanda Dobbins?

  He is Jude Law and Sadie Frost kid. I don't know what else you expect.

• 23:38Sean Fennessey?

  Let's go back.

• 23:38Amanda Dobbins?

  If Jude Law and Sadie Frost are gonna have a kid, name him Rafferty Jellico Frost Law.

• 23:44Sean Fennessey?

  Rafferty Raph Jellico Frost Law.

• 23:47Amanda Dobbins?

  Yes.

• 23:47Sean Fennessey?

  That is the worst law firm in America. Uh, okay. I thought he was, I'd never, I don't think I'd seen him before. I think he was, he was amusing, um, as the stock trading bad boy who comes to a fatal end.

• 24:00Amanda Dobbins?

  I was excited when there was a helicopter, like esque, stunt-esque, not like quite a full stunt. But I was like, wow, you guys got a helicopter. Good job on you.

• 24:09Sean Fennessey?

  It has some scale. It's not a small movie. Um, I think, who was Jessica Henwick's character, not a real person?

• 24:15Amanda Dobbins?

  No.

• 24:16Sean Fennessey?

  Wish there was a little bit more time spent shaping who that person was.

• 24:18Amanda Dobbins?

  Right.

• 24:18Sean Fennessey?

  Aside from being like a very kind kindergarten teacher or like a high school English teacher. What is it?

• 24:25Amanda Dobbins?

  And there is some, there is some room there because she's supposed to be sort of, you know, disgusted by the Zach Woods character and she's drawn to Glenn Powell's character.

• 24:36Sean Fennessey?

  Why was she dating Zach Woods in the first place?

• 24:38Amanda Dobbins?

  And then she just keeps going along with Glenn Powell's, like, you know, moving on. So there is, there is some motivation and stuff to question there. And I agree, it doesn't really.

• 24:49Sean Fennessey?

  That, that, that part doesn't really work. She's sort of an audience surrogate, but not really. Um, yeah, I'm, this movie is gonna be forgotten pretty quickly. Um, and maybe people will discover it when this goes to HBO Max. But, um, I thought it was a good old time with the movies. And as I mentioned to Chris Ryan. Um, another in a long line of pop culture artifacts that are set basically in my hometown. And fans of The Wonder Years or Growing Pains might know that those are more or less inspired by youth in Huntington, and this is a movie that was originally called Huntington. And I was talking to my sister about it this weekend, and I was like, how many billionaires do you think lived in Huntington? And she started, and she was like, oh, I'm sure like a bunch.

• 25:33Sean Fennessey?

  And I was like, in our hometown? And then she started kind of finessing it with like, oh, no, when you go to the coast up north in Cold Spring Harbor and, you know, I lived in the most middle-class town in America.

• 25:46Amanda Dobbins?

  Huntington is name checked. It is, they live in Huntington, and it is a grand estate portrayed.

• 25:52Sean Fennessey?

  Yes.

• 25:53Amanda Dobbins?

  The house they used for the interior, I liked, by the way, I just want to say, good, like the confrontation scene with Ed Harris. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 26:01Sean Fennessey?

  Yeah, yeah, that was cool. I mean, that house just does not, there's Ohika Castle near Huntington, which is a place where, that was where many events were held. But most of the people that I knew who attended, attended because they worked as servers at Ohika Castle.

• 26:13Amanda Dobbins?

  I've just Google imaged Ohika Castle, and this is not the exterior used.

• 26:18Sean Fennessey?

  No, no.

• 26:19Amanda Dobbins?

  Okay, looks, it looks nice.

• 26:20Sean Fennessey?

  Sure. Um, I just, I'm like, I want to ask John Patton Ford, like, why Huntington? What was it about this town? When did, I presume he went there once?

• 26:28Amanda Dobbins?

  I don't know. It's a good name, you know?

• 26:30Sean Fennessey?

  And then they didn't use it.

• 26:31Amanda Dobbins?

  Well, but I mean, but it's just like the town itself.

• 26:34Sean Fennessey?

  It's just named after a London town, you know?

• 26:36Amanda Dobbins?

  Sure, but it, the name itself, like it books something.

• 26:39Sean Fennessey?

  Yeah, I was from Huntington Station too, which is really downmarket. We were really not from the nice part of Huntington, unfortunately.

• 26:45Amanda Dobbins?

  It was, I had a lovely time when I visited.

• 26:47Sean Fennessey?

  You did go, you've been to Huntington Station.

• 26:49Amanda Dobbins?

  The Cheesecake Factory was wonderful.

• 26:51Sean Fennessey?

  Yes.

• 26:52Amanda Dobbins?

  So.

• 26:52Sean Fennessey?

  I'll tell you what, that was a good Cheesecake Factory, I gotta, I gotta say. Um, yeah, shout out to Huntington. I, I don't really miss it that much, to be honest with you. Uh, all right, let's circle to centers.

• 27:03Amanda Dobbins?

  Yeah.

• 27:04Sean Fennessey?

  Now, you have not, I think I've watched this movie five times, and you have not seen it since you saw it in movie theaters last April.

• 27:11Amanda Dobbins?

  No, I mean, I've seen scenes from it in parts, because it has started as it was released on digital. You know, it's just permeating the culture and you catch up to stuff of it. And it was interesting, certain shots, when they showed up in my rewatch, I was like, oh, you know, Leo pointing at the camera because I am so familiar with them individually. But, no, but I did go back. I saw it in theaters. I saw a re-release.

• 27:37Sean Fennessey?

  Okay. Was it IMAX? Or was it just a regular?

• 27:40Amanda Dobbins?

  No, it was just, it was a regular special screening. Yeah.

• 27:43Sean Fennessey?

  Yeah. So, I mean, I think, you know, over the next few weeks, we'll like revisit a couple of the movies that are nominated for Best Picture. I think we'll talk about the doc nominees pretty soon as well. But this feels like a good time to go back to this movie because we did two big episodes about it right when it came out. And then we've talked about it through the awards race, but not kind of through any critical perspective. I actually just rewatched it about 10 days ago because my wife was like, let's watch this. I want to see it. I'm trying, I'm knocking off all the Best Picture contenders and she didn't get a chance to see it in movie theaters. So I got to watch it at home. So, you know, with almost a year out, tell me some of your reflections. What did you make of the movie? And especially in light of it having this kind of elevated historical status now.

• 28:21Amanda Dobbins?

  Yeah. Well, it was interesting. I remember, I remember our conversation with Van and we were talking about how much is stuffed into this movie, which is true and is what really stuck out to me the second time. I think, you know, much in the way that when we watched One Battle, the first time I was like, oh, this is really funny. And the second time I was like, oh, this is so emotional. The first time I watched the movie, I was like, oh, wow, this is like a really, really elevated, like really smart, like almost like genre breaking vampire movie. But it is, you know, there is a big centerpiece with like a lot of vampires.

• 29:02Sean Fennessey?

  Yep.

• 29:03Amanda Dobbins?

  And the second time I watched it, I was like, oh, the vampires don't matter at all. I mean, and they, and they do, and they do. And there is, it's a very cool idea that the vampires represent in the movie about ownership of art and black art specifically. And.

• 29:23Amanda Dobbins?

  And also the type of movie that is being made and the type of movie that people, you know, audiences want to see. So they do matter. And also, like the set piece, obviously, like they, they spent a lot of time and effort shooting like a very gnarly vampire movie. But I found some of it is just personal preference. My, my attention was almost waning a little as they just, they kept jumping on each other. And I was really surprised and, and excited at how alive the movie came again at the second, the actual climax,

• 30:03Amanda Dobbins?

  which is the smoke character against the clan. And the way that's shot and, and it is, it's sad and exciting. And obviously, like the emotional, like dream stuff at the end. And as you realize, oh, this was foretold in the first scene also. So

• 30:24Sean Fennessey?

  Which he does. He does that in Black Panther, too. You know, he uses these kind of illustrative, narrative moments early in the movie. That's kind of like, here's the movie you're about to get.

• 30:32Amanda Dobbins?

  Yeah. So it was, it was interesting just to, to be sitting there and realize, oh, no, this is the movie. And this is where it's going. And this is, this is where I'm actually going to get catharsis and where a lot of the ideas are gonna, maybe not meet resolution, but at least kind of come to a head. And then, you know, famously, at this point, I didn't know there was a post-credit sequence. So the first time I saw it, I didn't see it. And I noticed that the ending, then the post-credit sequence now started before the credits, when I saw it in re-release.

• 31:14Sean Fennessey?

  But there were no credits at all when you saw it in re-release, before it started? Because I think that there was like a directed by Ryan Coogler credit, like maybe like a couple of credits? And then it went to the post-credit? Was there anything?

• 31:27Amanda Dobbins?

  They show Buddy Guy before you hit.

• 31:30Sean Fennessey?

  Playing guitar.

• 31:31Amanda Dobbins?

  But yeah, it almost goes straight from like Miles Keaton's character from Sammy, driving with the guitar along in the road. And it goes straight to Buddy Guy.

• 31:42Sean Fennessey?

  Can't remember how they, how they do it on the, on the Blu-ray release.

• 31:45Amanda Dobbins?

  And they, um.

• 31:48Amanda Dobbins?

  And you like play a little more and it's just, it's made a lot clearer that like more is happening. And you need to stay and watch. And I understand why, because that's the actual end of the movie.

• 32:01Sean Fennessey?

  Yeah, yeah. I have some questions for you about that.

• 32:04Amanda Dobbins?

  Yeah, it brings in, you know, in the way that the, um, the, the showdown with the clan and then Smoke seeing Annie and the, you know, the, his, his baby is a resolution for that character. You get some sort of resolution for Sammy before the credit sequence, but it's really the ending for both Sammy and, and Stack and the Mary character. And.

• 32:31Sean Fennessey?

  Or is it?

• 32:32Amanda Dobbins?

  Or is it? And well, you know, is it a happy ending? Who is the happiest? Like, what are you supposed to take away from the, from these resolutions is, is an interesting question.

• 32:42Sean Fennessey?

  I mean, what I really want out of that final stretch, and maybe this is just Marvel brain, and I want to talk a little bit about Marvel and Kugler and how that intersects with this movie. But I would very happily watch the 1990, you know, Stack and Mary vampire movie that's like circa Demon Knight or something like a, a, a black horror movie in, in, from the time of my adolescence, because I loved horror movies at that time.

• 33:07Amanda Dobbins?

  Right.

• 33:07Sean Fennessey?

  I think Kugler would be awesome at making a movie with like, you just think about the music that he could use at that time. You'd look about like, think about like the set design, the production design he could incorporate. It does have a little bit of the like, there could be another chapter of this movie too.

• 33:19Amanda Dobbins?

  Yes.

• 33:20Sean Fennessey?

  Which, given how successful it's been, you could see it. And it, it sets it up, but not in, in an obnoxious way. It's not like next time on Sinners. It's like, this is open. Stack is still a vampire. Mary is still a vampire. We can do more, but we don't have to. And you can be happy with the end of Sammy.

• 33:36Amanda Dobbins?

  And I think, and also the openness is like another accomplishment of the film, because what Sammy says to them as they leave, and he was like, he says something like, until everyone started dying, that was the best day of my life. And he's almost looking. At the vampires before him with longing and they go off together.

• 33:59Sean Fennessey?

  Yes.

• 33:59Amanda Dobbins?

  Um, and so again, you're like, so which outcome was I supposed to be rooting for? Who is, what is the, the happy ending here? Like, what are we, we supposed to want? Which is like, really cool.

• 34:14Sean Fennessey?

  I mean, you're, you're touching on something that I find to be such an electrifying aspect of the movie, which is on the one hand, there's this big load bearing metaphor about the vampires who want to siphon the life from all people, but especially these black people, and especially this one black kid, who Remick, the Jack O'Connell character, is obsessed by because he hears the music that allows him to conjure his past and remember his own life, which is a really thorny idea that like white people, forget about stealing black art and commodifying it. In America, white people are fascinated by black art. They're moved by it. It has inspired so much, so many white people to make art that is, that sounds like the blues.

• 34:57Sean Fennessey?

  That's rock and roll is totally this transmogrification of the blues music. So that idea is really interesting. And then so Sammy then, and some of the other characters that are inside the juke joint, looking at Remick and then looking at their loved ones who have become vampires and being torn about like whether to join this eternal life where you're part of a hive mind and you feel like a part of something, but knowing that there's a kind of evil in that decision and a, and a kind of, um, a colonization and a, uh, just become like losing the self, right? Like losing your individuality.

• 35:36Amanda Dobbins?

  Right.

• 35:36Sean Fennessey?

  In order to feel safer is a, is a big idea in a vampire movie. And he, I thought he really communicated it really well. And I, I'm, I think I'm generally with you that the actual vampire mayhem of the movie, to me is the least successful stuff in the movie.

• 35:50Amanda Dobbins?

  Yes.

• 35:51Sean Fennessey?

  Um, and some of that is just like, even though Coogler's now made a few action movies, I feel like he's not in that like John McTiernan level where a vampire throwdown is going to be the best thing in the movie. Maybe he'll get there, maybe he won't. But everything conceptually around the vampire usage is so smart and so realized. And so much of it is more like the formal classical universal horror movie stuff of, you know, if you would just invite me in and I could cross that line. Like Omar, I talked to Autumn actually about that Omar Miller sequence when he comes to the door. And he's like, just let me come on in, you know? And they're kind of having that negotiation between the two of them. And that's just like, you could find that in a vampire movie 100 years ago. And it would be just as compelling and just as interesting as a concept. So he's got his, he's really got a handle on that stuff.

• 36:36Sean Fennessey?

  There is just like a big CGI fight, like there is in so many Marvel movies. There's two of them, really. There's the raid on the juke joint. And then there's when they go outside, when Remick is, is, you know, when they're all kind of burning in the sun. That is like, I think when the movie gets criticized, it's people thinking about that stuff in the movie, which makes it feel just like a genre movie or a comic book movie or whatever. And it, and then you like, it lied all the other dramatic or metaphorical stuff that makes it such a powerful movie. But I, as I have been saying since the Shape of Water Best Picture win, I'm like, good. Like get more of that shit in movies that can win Oscars. Parasite winning, which is like a Hitchcock movie after Hitchcock never won, is good. Like, let's just kind of get more what like people want from movies.

• 37:21Sean Fennessey?

  And that is part of the reason why that stuff is all in there is because Kooler has such a keen sense for what audiences want. It's what's made him so successful. And they do want a big fight at the end. They do want a throwdown, you know? That's something that you learn making Creed or that you learn making Black Panther. And so I understand why that stuff is there. I wish it was a little bit more sharply rendered or a little bit more clever.

• 37:41Amanda Dobbins?

  And it also, you know, it does come after, um, not just like an hour of, it's amazing how much world is built into what is a one night only movie. This is, it's a 24 hour. It's just like, it is one crazy night.

• 37:55Sean Fennessey?

  It is.

• 37:57Amanda Dobbins?

  And so much history and then and so much recreation. I just like the, you know, it's not insightful to say that like the production design and the costume design and the cinematography like really stand out in this. But like, so that's Ruthie Carter, that's Hannah Beekler, that's Autumn Gerald Arkapaw. And they really bring this specific place in Mississippi in 1932 to life.

• 38:21Sean Fennessey?

  Yep. The train station, the cotton fields, the juke joint, like the spaces that they build are really amazingly realized. Yeah.

• 38:27Amanda Dobbins?

  And so you're, you're so immersed in that world. And Kugler has talked about like how much research, you know, he did. And in addition to this being something that was shared with him from family members and it's like a big part of meaningful to him. But so it's so beautifully recreated. And then you do before all the vampire stuff really gets kicking, you have what I am now calling like the the dream ballet. The like the big sequence, which is I lied to you and is a literalization of so much of what the movie is trying to do in terms of the connection of black music and black history, like over time and space, backward and forward.

• 39:13Sean Fennessey?

  And also other cultures, too.

• 39:14Amanda Dobbins?

  Yeah, exactly.

• 39:16Sean Fennessey?

  Japanese, Chinese, yeah.

• 39:17Amanda Dobbins?

  Totally. And it uses also the characters because they're the Chinese group in the Mississippi, like the Chinese history in the Mississippi Delta is represented in the characters and also in in that dream ballet. And it also creates something that I think the movie does so well, which is this is like a very sensual movie, and it understands the power of music, it understands the power of movement, it understands the power of sex. It understands how all those things are like related to God and spirituality and that, you know, on one side is church, on the other side is music, on the third side is.

• 39:58Amanda Dobbins?

  Oral sex and lots of liquids and you feel all of those things like it's just you feel the different combinations of or like expirations of the ecstatic and then you get to that sequence which is just killer and and looks so good and you're just it's it's magical movie making and then you do got to watch a CGI vampire fight. So I do think that some of the the criticism or the resistance to the that fight is because of like the high highs that are achieved in the first 90 minutes.

• 40:29Sean Fennessey?

  I felt a little bit of it watching even the first time. I was like, OK, this is going into a slightly more standard movie territory. And I think some of those criticisms are informed by a generation of movie fan that saw a couple of movies that I think Kugler's been pretty honest about being inspired by. But I feel like it's probably better to put those movies in a lineage. And I've been kind of arguing with people about this over the last few months, but obviously, there's a lot of From Dust Till Dawn in this movie.

• 40:58Amanda Dobbins?

  Yeah.

• 40:59Sean Fennessey?

  The Robert Rodriguez film, which is written by Quentin Tarantino, George Clooney and Tarantino play brothers who are criminals who kidnap a family and they bring them as hostages on this road trip so they can escape after a bank robbery and they find themselves at a bar on the border of Mexico and they realize when they're in this bar where they're waiting to meet someone overnight, that it's actually a vampire bar and that after a certain period of time, all the patrons of the bar and all the people who work at the bar are all vampires. Very similar in a kind of a little more than superficial way. But if you look at the history of these movies, From Dust Till Dawn is very clearly inspired by John Carpenter's Assault on Precinct 13. It's also clearly inspired by Catherine Bigelow's

• 41:42Sean Fennessey?

  Near Dark. It's also inspired by John Carpenter's The Thing, which Kugler and Autumn have cited as major inspirations. And so I I personally enjoy the idea of Kugler using movie history and the frameworks of movie. This is what all of my favorite directors do, where they're just like, I really love this movie from 40 years ago, and I want to do kind of my spin on it and I'll do it in the Mississippi Delta and it'll be about blues music. Like, to me, many great movies, maybe most great movies are kind of in conversation with movie history. And so the idea of people being like, this is just From Dust Till Dawn, like completely misunderstands the long arc of vampire movies in American popular culture. So I enjoy that he does that. And then I also enjoy the fact that

• 42:28Sean Fennessey?

  He doesn't just end with a big vampire fight. He does the two things that you were describing where he puts a bow on the KKK, which the movie kind of sets up very well at the beginning when Smoke and Stack buy that space from Hogwood. Hogwood, incredible hilarious name for the KKK member.

• 42:45Sean Fennessey?

  You get this really artful, kind of classical John Dillinger, like shooting into the camera moment from Michael B. Jordan. And then that incredibly complex spiritual idea of Annie and their child who are both dead, and then him, Smoke, moving on at the end of the film, which is a swing. I mean, that's not a small gesture. It's a pretty dramatic moment. And what I like about that, and I've been turning this over in my mind, so I'm curious how you feel about it. I see the movie as like somewhat anti-organized religion. And I don't even know how faithful a person Kuehl is or not, but Sammy's kind of war

• 43:28Sean Fennessey?

  between his family life and his creative life and what his father wants for him and what his cousins want for him and where he ultimately ends up when he grows up to become Buddy Guy. And the way that Smoke goes out and the fact that he does have this connection to the spiritual world and that Annie represents this other Creole and African relationship to the spiritual. But that the kind of the organization, the like structure that keeps you spiritual is really discarded in the movie and not really paid as much attention to. And what it is really ultimately is a movie about like following your passions and what you want and what's inside you yourself and keeping it for yourself and not giving it to Remick and not giving it to anybody else who wants it.

• 44:09Sean Fennessey?

  Doing it on your own terms is again, another thorny idea in the stew of the movie that I really enjoy. And every time you think he's going to end the movie, he waits to end it to say like one more thing about the things that are on his mind as he's writing through it. But I don't know if, people may disagree with me about how they see spirituality and the church in the movie.

• 44:31Amanda Dobbins?

  I mean, it's definitely set up as something that the Sammy character is rebelling against. And the the last shot is him, the last shot before the final credits.

• 44:44Sean Fennessey?

  Yeah.

• 44:45Amanda Dobbins?

  The last shot of the last shot of Miles Caton is Sammy driving away from the church.

• 44:52Sean Fennessey?

  Yeah.

• 44:53Amanda Dobbins?

  And in, you know, and it echoes him driving away with with smoke and stack ahead of time and like, he's like, he's on a road of like, you know, a road of his own.

• 45:05Sean Fennessey?

  Yes.

• 45:05Amanda Dobbins?

  Maybe perhaps a road to Damascus, but um, so I, I don't disagree. I think.

• 45:11Sean Fennessey?

  It might not be as like, clean as like, it's anti-religion. That's not really what I'm saying. But it is like, I wonder inside of Kugler, there's something about like, I could have went here, but I went here.

• 45:19Amanda Dobbins?

  Well, I, I think what the movie is amazing at communicating and it and is exploring and like, it's the connection, like, music, spirituality, like sex, like there, there are different ways to feel and, and, and live in this world and enjoy this world that it and, and find its real beauty than in like, the institutions that are presented throughout the film.

• 45:49Sean Fennessey?

  I think that's well put.

• 45:50Amanda Dobbins?

  So, and, and the movie really understands the connections between all of those things. So I, I don't know. So like, it is a very sexy movie and there are not very many sexy movies right now. But, but not in like, a, not in a gross way, or not in a way that's trying to like, titillate. I think it just understands like sex as another like, way of connection and physical expression, or.

• 46:19Sean Fennessey?

  Yeah, no, I'm, I think it's a, it's a movie about desire in a lot of ways, about what people really want. And Sammy going down on Jamie Lawson's character, you know, and then having that kind of like, union, that realization, I think Hailee Steinfeld's character is like incredibly sexual and forward in a way that's fairly uncommon. But again, it's kind of a this thorny idea of this white woman coming into this space.

• 46:39Amanda Dobbins?

  Right.

• 46:40Sean Fennessey?

  Desiring a black man. And wanting to be within this black enclave of people and her not feeling shame about that, her being excited by it and being like scorned by this person who left her and wanting to get back in their life, but then turning her into a vampire who then turns him into a vampire, which is again, this like really naughty idea that I think is really interesting.

• 47:00Amanda Dobbins?

  One thing on rewatch that I did notice was that it is, it's, it is the women every time who let the vampires in. You pointed out Lola Kirk, which like she is, I don't remember her character's name. She's Lola Kirk forever. And then, and then Mary, who is sent out because her argument is that she is like the vampire, the, the Irish musicians as, as we under, as the characters understand them at that moment are more likely to, to be forthright with her.

• 47:33Sean Fennessey?

  Lola Kirk's name is Joan, by the way, in the film.

• 47:36Amanda Dobbins?

  Yeah, okay. And then Grace, the Chinese grocer who invites them and she literally yells, comes in, come in, but it's because they've threatened her child. And.

• 47:50Sean Fennessey?

  Played by Lee John Lee, who's great in this movie.

• 47:51Amanda Dobbins?

  Yeah, so wonderful. So that's three instances. I mean, I, I, I sat there and I was like, hmm, I wonder what this is trying to say. And it's not trying to, it's not like the men are doing anything proactive. Like the, the, the men are not helpful in any way. They just like become vampires.

• 48:09Sean Fennessey?

  Well, it's also the non-black women.

• 48:12Amanda Dobbins?

  Exactly.

• 48:12Sean Fennessey?

  You know, Annie is not inviting any vampires in.

• 48:14Amanda Dobbins?

  Annie is the only person who knows how to do anything.

• 48:18Sean Fennessey?

  She's the wisest person in the movie.

• 48:19Amanda Dobbins?

  Exactly. So I, you know, I think that all of that's like very purposeful. And the, and the, the men, the funniest scene to me that I had, I had forgotten was Delroy Lindo eating the garlic clove.

• 48:35Sean Fennessey?

  So good. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, very, that, that whole sequence is very inspired by the thing and this idea of like testing who is really the monster. So like a great callback, but I mean, he's very funny in the movie throughout. That's, that's, his nomination is really interesting to me because like, I think he's really good in the movie.

• 48:51Amanda Dobbins?

  Yeah.

• 48:51Sean Fennessey?

  I don't know that he's like my favorite performance of all time. I think he's like an interesting side character, not really too much more than that. But I, I love him as an actor over the years and there are a number of different times when I've been like, he should have been nominated for Clockers, he should have been nominated for Defy Bloods, he should have been nominated for a bunch of other movies. But um, you do need a person who can play for laughs there a couple of times in the movie because the movie does run the risk of getting a little psycho serious about certain aspects of it, like Smoke and Annie, that's a very, you know, sincere um, and very straight conversation that they're having first when he goes to see her after he's returned to Mississippi. And then later they're kind of like their union inside of the juke joint. So you do need people who can kind of like

• 49:36Sean Fennessey?

  balance. And then the vampires ultimately become very funny. I spent a lot of time thinking about Jack O'Connell and Coogler's decision to like make, choose an Irish vampire. And this really interesting history of the Irish and black Americans and like

• 49:51Amanda Dobbins?

  It's purposeful.

• 49:52Sean Fennessey?

  Totally, totally purposeful, you know, like two very musical peoples. Two peoples that were considered a lower class, but one certainly at a much higher station in society than the other. And this idea of like the false sympathies of the Irish that is like, again, a very deep and complicated idea. I've had a lot of fun texting with Van over the last few months about that idea. And you know, Ryan, I thought has, I think has a really good insight and sense of humor about that. He's like, my name is Ryan. Like I am Irish, you know?

• 50:21Sean Fennessey?

  And the idea of O'Connell

• 50:25Sean Fennessey?

  being a big time monster, like a real historical movie baddie, but also having this, this

• 50:33Sean Fennessey?

  pretty typical in the right kind of movie sympathetic strain of vampire identity where it's like, most vampires are like, I didn't, this wasn't my choice.

• 50:43Amanda Dobbins?

  Right.

• 50:44Sean Fennessey?

  Somebody took my life from me. I'm, I'm bound to this eternal struggle. I just kind of want to get back to what my life used to be. And so even though you say vampire, you think of silly movie with somebody biting somebody's neck. You know, the Bram Stoker idea of it is, is very sexual, very psychological. And O'Connell, obviously on a legendary run right now, just playing complex villains. But I think he's terrific in this movie. And I said to Autumn, the rocky road to Dublin scene, when he's dancing and singing, and then it becomes this kind of like ecstatic, euphoric collectivism moment.

• 51:21Amanda Dobbins?

  Right.

• 51:22Sean Fennessey?

  Between all of these vampires who are like

• 51:23Amanda Dobbins?

  Yes.

• 51:23Sean Fennessey?

  coming together to embrace this white boy. I think it's so good.

• 51:27Amanda Dobbins?

  And you really do, the Stack character is there singing along like very enthusiastically. And Michael B. Jordan is like really having it up in that moment.

• 51:36Sean Fennessey?

  Yes, yes.

• 51:36Amanda Dobbins?

  It's great.

• 51:36Sean Fennessey?

  Irish dancing, yeah.

• 51:37Amanda Dobbins?

  Yes, it's a great performance, but I, you know, it jumps out.

• 51:40Sean Fennessey?

  Yeah. And BJ, um, also obviously nominated. And I think an actor that we've always liked, I think, has maybe been a little historically underestimated, but also we've been living with him for a long time, you know, going back to The Wire and Friday Night Lights.

• 51:56Amanda Dobbins?

  Yeah. We watched him grow up, yeah.

• 51:58Sean Fennessey?

  We did. He's, he's currently making The Thomas Crown Affair.

• 52:00Amanda Dobbins?

  I know that.

• 52:01Sean Fennessey?

  That's pretty complicated for you.

• 52:04Sean Fennessey?

  What if it's not good?

• 52:04Amanda Dobbins?

  I'm open to it.

• 52:05Sean Fennessey?

  Okay.

• 52:05Amanda Dobbins?

  That was one thing that you guys, well, I haven't finished your Crime 101 conversation yet. I mean, I do, you know, I love a, a JMO Lite podcast, so I will listen to all of it.

• 52:15Sean Fennessey?

  It's a little JMO-ish, yeah, yeah.

• 52:17Amanda Dobbins?

  But no one's mentioned The Thomas Crown Affair overtones yet. I mean, like it's a very hot insurance woman in on or not on the trade.

• 52:27Sean Fennessey?

  That didn't occur to me.

• 52:28Amanda Dobbins?

  Yeah, it was right there for the taking, so I

• 52:30Sean Fennessey?

  We missed you then.

• 52:31Amanda Dobbins?

  I enjoyed Crime 101.

• 52:32Sean Fennessey?

  Yeah, it's fun.

• 52:33Amanda Dobbins?

  I did think that it was Chris Hemsworth, the accountant, but that's okay.

• 52:37Sean Fennessey?

  It 100% is.

• 52:37Amanda Dobbins?

  But I also enjoyed The Accountant and even some parts of The Accountant too.

• 52:41Sean Fennessey?

  They're very similar performances, a very similar idea behind that guy. Two beautiful men who are like, what if I'm a little weird?

• 52:47Amanda Dobbins?

  Yeah.

• 52:47Sean Fennessey?

  You know, which I get it, as a beautiful man who's a little weird.

• 52:52Amanda Dobbins?

  Anyway, BJ, he's really, really good at reacting to people. That's one of his skills as an actor. So You really do need to hand it to him that most of this performance, he has to be reacting to himself and/or, you know, a stand-in for himself. And I do think that he, in addition to like really demonstrating a connection with both the Annie character and the Mary character and like and the Sammy character and all the people around him, this scenes between Smoke and Stack have chemistry.

• 53:28Sean Fennessey?

  Oh, yeah.

• 53:28Amanda Dobbins?

  Which is incredible because you're just having chemistry with yourself.

• 53:32Sean Fennessey?

  It's a really good twin performance. Twin performances are not easy. You have any favorite twin performances?

• 53:38Amanda Dobbins?

  Lindsay Lohan, The Parent Trap, Nancy Meyers.

• 53:42Sean Fennessey?

  Yeah.

• 53:42Amanda Dobbins?

  Yeah.

• 53:43Sean Fennessey?

  Pretty good one.

• 53:43Amanda Dobbins?

  It's iconic.

• 53:44Sean Fennessey?

  What about Tom Hardy in the film Legend?

• 53:47Amanda Dobbins?

  I do think I've seen that. He it's like 60s, he's in a suit.

• 53:52Sean Fennessey?

  Yeah, the Cray Brothers.

• 53:53Amanda Dobbins?

  Yes. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Sure, listen, if Chris Ryan's happy, I'm happy.

• 53:57Sean Fennessey?

  Okay. What about Christian Bale in The Prestige?

• 54:01Amanda Dobbins?

  I mean, he's good. Christian Bale is seldom bad. I've seen Amsterdam, so.

• 54:07Sean Fennessey?

  Is he even bad in that? I don't even think he's bad in that. I don't think he's ever been bad. You know, he's survived Thor, Love and Thunder.

• 54:13Amanda Dobbins?

  I guess.

• 54:14Sean Fennessey?

  He's terrific.

• 54:15Amanda Dobbins?

  Yeah.

• 54:15Sean Fennessey?

  Christian Bale should work with Coogler. That would be good. I'd be interested in that. I did like a lot about a lot of what Coogler has been saying about this film and what you were describing about his connection to the American South and how he pointed out that he made two movies about Africa before circling back to, he kind of skipped a step in terms of exploring his personal history and his family history. And his Uncle James is this kind of signal figure in the development of this movie, someone who he's really close to, who was from Mississippi, who talked with him a lot. He eventually moved to Richmond, California to be closer to his family. And so Coogler was very close to to James and they talked all the time about music and baseball and James drank whiskey.

• 54:56Sean Fennessey?

  You know, I think most of us had uncles and aunts who like with whom we had these relationships, right? Where they showed us things, they kind of, because they did, they weren't our parents, they could be more real with us about how things were. I like a lot of like Coogler's fascinations and obsessions with stuff that he puts into his movies and also his little perversions of things that he puts into his movies and him constantly citing this and his sadness about not being present when James passed away while he was making Creed, being such a critical part of informing this movie, I think is really cool. What else?

• 55:33Amanda Dobbins?

  So the, let's see. We did vampires.

• 55:37Sean Fennessey?

  Mm hmm.

• 55:38Amanda Dobbins?

  Do you think that the, the wishy washyness over, not the, the

• 55:47Amanda Dobbins?

  disagreement over the actual like vampire fighting thing? Which is the most genre part of this genre movie and the least Oscars part of this Oscars movie?

• 56:01Amanda Dobbins?

  Will be held against it in, in voting.

• 56:04Sean Fennessey?

  I think it already isn't.

• 56:05Amanda Dobbins?

  Yeah.

• 56:06Sean Fennessey?

  You know, I mean, I, it got 16 nominations and so I, that's sort of what I mean when I, as we've been doing this over the years, I give a lot of thought to what is accepted and celebrated. And, you know, I just mentioned to you The Shape of Water and Parasite, but I mean, Everything Everywhere All at Once is another movie where Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon was never really strongly considered as a Best Picture contender. It was, got nominated and was acclaimed, but a movie like that, a martial arts film? A film with a lot of martial arts is not, was just not recognized. And now it is, now there is one. It's entirely premised upon the history of martial arts, that movie. And so I, I think that's really interesting that a lot of those prejudices and biases against

• 56:51Sean Fennessey?

  genre storytelling have kind of been washed away. Now, it doesn't mean that they're always going to win.

• 56:57Amanda Dobbins?

  Right.

• 56:58Sean Fennessey?

  And I guess, has, I guess there's never been a vampire movie that's won Best Picture before. And you could debate whether or not, you know, The Exorcist and The Silence of the Lambs, I guess, are the two primary vectors in the horror movie Best Picture race over the years. And we're probably due now for another one, considering how meaningful horror is to audiences and to movie making

• 57:20Amanda Dobbins?

  Right.

• 57:20Sean Fennessey?

  in 2026. So that, I mean, I guess if Sinners wins, do you think of that as a horror movie win? I guess you do.

• 57:28Amanda Dobbins?

  I guess so, though again, my experience of this re-watch and of really sitting down and thinking about it was that I, you know, the genre, the horror element is both essential to it and also.

• 57:42Amanda Dobbins?

  The least memorable thing about it, in my opinion. And you like, you need the framework and like any good genre film in any genre is using those very that like the beats and then inventing them, putting them together in new ways, referencing what's going before that. That's like the joy of them. And that's also if you can be creative about it. So I think to not consider it genre is to also misunderstand the film.

• 58:10Sean Fennessey?

  Yeah, but it is also a musical, you know? Yeah. In a very, in a very defined way. Where there are multiple set pieces where the movie just stops.

• 58:17Amanda Dobbins?

  Mm hmm.

• 58:17Sean Fennessey?

  And we look at someone playing music. And that is so interesting that he's able to make that work together with it. The music itself, I have been giving a lot of thought to. I sort of, I instantly fell in love with it and I'm on board with what Ludvig Ransson does. Like, I just think he, and I've noticed that he's gotten some criticism because he's now won twice in a row. And there's this sense that like, he's kind of iterating on the same idea over and over again, which is he's using these kind of like cultural mashups, you know? That in Black Panther, he's taking like, uh, classic orchestral music and hip hop and African rhythms and blasting them together.

• 58:58Sean Fennessey?

  In Oppenheimer, it is this idea of like, uh, you know, the big swelling orchestra with a very tiny like quartet with this idea of like electronic music kind of pulsing underneath it. And in this movie, delta blues, African rhythms, orchestral score, gospel music, heavy metal. Um, there's a lot of like American rock and roll in the movie.

• 59:20Amanda Dobbins?

  Yeah.

• 59:21Sean Fennessey?

  Exactly. Yeah, like classic, like it's a vampire movie and we cut away to the moon and we're like boom, like death chord, which is awesome.

• 59:27Amanda Dobbins?

  I love it. Yeah.

• 59:28Sean Fennessey?

  I, I'm into it. Like as a project, I think that's a cool project.

• 59:31Amanda Dobbins?

  What else would you do for this film? I mean, that is, that is just kind of like a, a literalization of what this film is about in a lot of ways. So I, you know, I, I think it works perfectly. I have no problem with it.

• 59:46Sean Fennessey?

  I do too. I mean, I really, I think it's fun to look at the, um, To look at the playlist that they compiled for the inspirations for the music, because it is everything from Willie Dixon and Son House to Alice in Chains. You know, like, it is a vast 100-year history of American guitar music. On top of the fact that he, I think, is ascending into this, like, John Williams status, you know, where he has these collaborations with Kugler. He's now got these collaborations going with Christopher Nolan, the same way that Williams kind of had, like, Lucas and Spielberg, and then he started stacking on top of that, and then Harry Potter. And you can kind of see for the next 40 years that if Ludwig wants this, he can have this. And that's pretty rare.

• 1:00:30Amanda Dobbins?

  That's great. Let's have another John Williams, you know? John Williams, one of our greatest living.

• 1:00:34Sean Fennessey?

  How about yesterday when they were playing music and Alice was just like, can you just put on the Star Wars music? And just like, the Imperial March?

• 1:00:42Amanda Dobbins?

  No, the last 45 minutes of your barbecue was just our children, like, dancing grad to the Star Wars score.

• 1:00:49Sean Fennessey?

  Yeah, John Williams is huge. At the Jaws exhibit, have you been to the Jaws exhibit at the Academy Museum?

• 1:00:54Amanda Dobbins?

  Not yet.

• 1:00:55Sean Fennessey?

  There's, you know, multiple rooms, but there's one room where it's, um, there's a keyboard, and it has stickers on the keys, and it shows you how to play the Jaws theme. And then on the screen behind it is Spielberg and John Williams talking about the score and how they, like, built the score. And it's basically Spielberg being like, I don't know, John Williams does it, but it's really interesting. Yeah, Ludwig, I like, I'm a fan, you know? Do I wish Dan LePatton was nominated for best score this year?

• 1:01:22Amanda Dobbins?

  I absolutely do.

• 1:01:23Sean Fennessey?

  I do. I wish he would win. That's my favorite score.

• 1:01:25Amanda Dobbins?

  Me, too.

• 1:01:26Sean Fennessey?

  But he's not nominated, so he's not going to win.

• 1:01:28Amanda Dobbins?

  I do think that the score nominating committee needs to look within itself.

• 1:01:33Sean Fennessey?

  Okay.

• 1:01:34Amanda Dobbins?

  It's been two years of just egregious oversights. But I'm not mad at this win.

• 1:01:40Sean Fennessey?

  I wouldn't be mad at it either. It's almost certainly seems like it's going to happen. Johnny Greenwood's still never won.

• 1:01:44Amanda Dobbins?

  That is weird.

• 1:01:46Sean Fennessey?

  Isn't it? What's going on there?

• 1:01:48Amanda Dobbins?

  I don't know. I mean, has PTA won?

• 1:01:51Sean Fennessey?

  No.

• 1:01:52Amanda Dobbins?

  So that's what's going on there. Dave Trinder doesn't have an Oscar. Timmy Cooper never got an Oscar. L.A., it's just kind of where we are.

• 1:01:58Sean Fennessey?

  These are all good points. I'm quite a big fan.

• 1:02:01Amanda Dobbins?

  Harrison Ford doesn't have an Oscar!

• 1:02:02Sean Fennessey?

  Yeah, that's a tough one. That's, we can't make that one right.

• 1:02:07Amanda Dobbins?

  Tom Cruise doesn't, the honorees don't count, in my book.

• 1:02:12Sean Fennessey?

  Digger, though.

• 1:02:13Amanda Dobbins?

  I, okay.

• 1:02:13Sean Fennessey?

  Digger's, Digger's coming.

• 1:02:14Amanda Dobbins?

  You think it's gonna be at Venice?

• 1:02:17Sean Fennessey?

  Oh, is that being speculated?

• 1:02:18Amanda Dobbins?

  By me.

• 1:02:22Sean Fennessey?

  Are you going to Venice again?

• 1:02:23Amanda Dobbins?

  I'm thinking about it. It's been, it's been long enough that I'm like getting itchy, you know?

• 1:02:28Sean Fennessey?

  It's been four months.

• 1:02:29Amanda Dobbins?

  Well, I know, but it's, listen, logistics and being away from your family and you gotta kind of like take a reset, but I've been, I've been looking at apartments. Yeah.

• 1:02:38Sean Fennessey?

  At a, just, just to buy to live in. Yeah.

• 1:02:42Sean Fennessey?

  That's exciting for you.

• 1:02:44Sean Fennessey?

  This episode is brought to you by Volkswagen. There is such a thing as becoming too comfortable in your day to day, but our favorite films with stories that make us change the way we think that weren't made by people content to just sit back and watch the world pass by. This is your sign that you shouldn't either. From us, VW and the other drivers out there, grab the wheel. Do what you love, even if it means taking the road less traveled. Learn more at VW.com.

• 1:03:10Sean Fennessey?

  If Sinners wins one out of 16 Oscars, will there be like a?

• 1:03:14Amanda Dobbins?

  Oh, God. Yes, of course there will. Of course there will. But, and I, and, and.

• 1:03:18Sean Fennessey?

  I guess it's gonna win two, right? It's gonna win a screenplay and, and score. Those are gonna happen.

• 1:03:21Amanda Dobbins?

  Yeah. And, and Coogler will have like a, a wonderful moment on stage as he did. I, did you watch his Baptist?

• 1:03:28Sean Fennessey?

  I did not.

• 1:03:28Amanda Dobbins?

  It was wonderful.

• 1:03:28Sean Fennessey?

  No. Okay.

• 1:03:29Amanda Dobbins?

  Um, and he had all the department heads stand up.

• 1:03:32Sean Fennessey?

  Very cool.

• 1:03:33Amanda Dobbins?

  And, you know, and, and like, he also, he's so thoughtful about the actual award he's receiving and what he's receiving it for. And it, it was about writing and the power, you know, and, and inspiration to other writers, but like in a non-tried way. It was great. So he'll get screenplays. So two for 16. It's not what you want. Um, I.

• 1:03:57Sean Fennessey?

  I don't think that's what's gonna happen, but it's possible.

• 1:04:01Amanda Dobbins?

  I would really like to see production design, costume design, cinematography.

• 1:04:07Sean Fennessey?

  I don't think the first two are, I think the first two are going Frankenstein.

• 1:04:09Amanda Dobbins?

  I, I don't understand that. I, but that's, that's one woman's opinion.

• 1:04:14Sean Fennessey?

  Cinematography, I think, is a coin flip.

• 1:04:16Amanda Dobbins?

  Okay.

• 1:04:16Sean Fennessey?

  But we'll see.

• 1:04:18Amanda Dobbins?

  It would be nice to have more craft stuff because I do think they're such it's it is so beautifully built on every level. And also, as you've been saying, Kugler has really just brought up this whole like, the next generation of John Williams is in every category, right?

• 1:04:32Sean Fennessey?

  Yeah, I mean, he's he's an incredible team builder and legacy builder, which I think is great. I mean, obviously, Ruth Ruth Carter has been working for decades. But, you know, Hannah Beekler, I don't think I'd heard that name before she started working on his movies. And now I look forward to seeing what she does. We talked about it with Autumn. The fact that she's now a person who she'd been making she was making Indies with Gia Coppola. You know, that that was really what her her filmmaking experience was in the 2010s and her coming on to do Black Panther Wakanda Forever is fascinating. Kugler, for the next few years, is an interesting subject. I think he has become weirdly more now than Black Panther, which was such a big film, but he has done such a good job as an advocate for this film.

• 1:05:14Sean Fennessey?

  And then, as you said, kind of winning these prizes and being a public person going on Good Hang with Amy Poehler, you know, like, he's more visible now. And he seems to have relished it.

• 1:05:23Amanda Dobbins?

  Sorry.

• 1:05:23Sean Fennessey?

  I know, that was a great moment. One of the one of the few moments where a podcast was was clipped out. And I was like, this is good. This is what you want. He's making Black Panther 3. And Black Panther 2, you know, not my favorite, probably my least favorite of his films. And you can see why there are a lot of reasons why. Obviously, we lost Chadwick Boseman. And I think that was obviously very hard for everybody who worked on that movie. And it forced them to change that movie in a pretty dramatic way.

• 1:05:51Sean Fennessey?

  And we are definitely in a moment where it feels like Marvel matters a little less to the culture. It doesn't mean that a Black Panther movie matters less, but this is the kind of movie that I'm like, God damn, I can't wait to see what this guy does next. So then to just go to a Black Panther 3, maybe not exactly what I would want from them. But it's not not our choice, obviously.

• 1:06:09Amanda Dobbins?

  I don't know. Maybe he has a big idea. Maybe he's got a lot of stuff he wants to do. He's a very imaginative person.

• 1:06:16Sean Fennessey?

  I agree.

• 1:06:17Amanda Dobbins?

  I also don't think Ryan Kuehl is in a position at this point in his life where he's doing something that he doesn't want to be doing.

• 1:06:23Sean Fennessey?

  Well, I wonder if he's contractually obligated to make a third Black Panther film. I mean, that's that crossed my mind, you know?

• 1:06:28Amanda Dobbins?

  I mean, I'm sure in some way, but also, I don't know, aren't these things supposed to be more flexible?

• 1:06:33Sean Fennessey?

  I mean, he has a lot of power. That's the other thing. I mean, I I noted that. Phil Lord and Chris Miller did themselves

• 1:06:42Sean Fennessey?

  an aspect ratio video in the run up to Project Hail Mary, where they're kind of talking about seeing the movie in IMAX. I can say I saw the movie in IMAX. Wowzers.

• 1:06:52Sean Fennessey?

  So I get why they did that, but that only happened because Ryan Coogler did the introduction of the film presentation of the movie, which then went viral a year ago. And now this wave of like

• 1:07:04Sean Fennessey?

  horny format boys, you know, all the, all the PLF kids who are just like, I will not see this film unless it's projected in 70 at CityWalk. Just like, I mean, it me, but it's really funny.

• 1:07:16Amanda Dobbins?

  You were that way, especially for One Battle. And I was like, we gotta just like-

• 1:07:20Sean Fennessey?

  I saw it in every format.

• 1:07:21Amanda Dobbins?

  See them and the, and the Vista Vision of it all. Why, why did they shoot Wuthering Heights in Vista Vision? Why?

• 1:07:28Sean Fennessey?

  Didn't get an answer on that.

• 1:07:29Amanda Dobbins?

  I've got no answers on any of that stuff.

• 1:07:32Sean Fennessey?

  I'm not really sure.

• 1:07:33Amanda Dobbins?

  But I, yeah, see it in the best screen that you can, you know, in the best, go, go to the best experience to see a film and then just see it.

• 1:07:41Sean Fennessey?

  What kind of movie would you like Ryan Coogler to make?

• 1:07:46Amanda Dobbins?

  Well, I know Michael B. Jordan is directing Thomas Crown Affair, so-

• 1:07:50Sean Fennessey?

  I know.

• 1:07:51Amanda Dobbins?

  Coogler can't, wouldn't you like to see it?

• 1:07:54Sean Fennessey?

  That would be really cool.

• 1:07:55Amanda Dobbins?

  Yeah.

• 1:07:55Sean Fennessey?

  I know.

• 1:07:56Amanda Dobbins?

  I mean, my answer for most, most directors I admire is like, can you just remake The Thomas Crown Affair?

• 1:08:00Sean Fennessey?

  Yeah.

• 1:08:00Amanda Dobbins?

  A heist film with charming people?

• 1:08:03Sean Fennessey?

  Yeah, he would make a heck of a heist movie. That's really interesting. This episode is brought to you by State Farm. There's nothing better than having friends who support whatever you're into, like re-watching a director's entire catalog in the lead up to their latest release. And like those friends, State Farm is there to help you feel supported by helping you choose the coverage you need. With so many coverage options, it's nice knowing you have help finding what fits for you. So you can check coverage off the list and spend more time debating movie rankings. Go online at statefarm.com or use the easily accessible app to get help from one of their local agents. Like a good neighbor, State Farm is there. This episode of The Big Picture is brought to you by Amazon Prime. What pairs with a good comedy? The cozy blanket arriving with Prime. What pairs with a nail biting thriller? Snacks arriving with Prime. What pairs with big game on Prime Video?

• 1:08:48Sean Fennessey?

  That new couch arriving with Prime. Whatever feeling you're after, Prime helps bring it to life with great entertainment and fast shipping that delivers what the moment calls for. From streaming to fast shipping, it's on Prime.

• 1:09:01Sean Fennessey?

  Best Picture power rankings.

• 1:09:02Amanda Dobbins?

  Yeah.

• 1:09:03Sean Fennessey?

  We haven't done this in a month.

• 1:09:04Amanda Dobbins?

  Mm hmm.

• 1:09:05Sean Fennessey?

  Um, as I said, this is a very consequential weekend.

• 1:09:09Amanda Dobbins?

  Yes.

• 1:09:09Sean Fennessey?

  So we're doing it before PGA and before the actor awards. And that will determine, I think, probably nothing, but PGA is going to tell us a lot.

• 1:09:18Amanda Dobbins?

  Yeah.

• 1:09:19Sean Fennessey?

  Because PGA is extremely predictive for Best Picture.

• 1:09:25Sean Fennessey?

  If Sinners wins PGA, will you flip your, where you think it's going?

• 1:09:31Amanda Dobbins?

  I don't know. I think if Sinners wins PGA and then you get a big night at the actor awards, which were the next night, and I think Sinners is the presumptive favorite and best ensemble.

• 1:09:43Sean Fennessey?

  It is.

• 1:09:45Amanda Dobbins?

  So if you get those two, plus you pick up a supporting trophy or two, then maybe yes. Maybe I'll flip it.

• 1:09:53Sean Fennessey?

  You've been steadfast. I've been more wavery.

• 1:09:56Amanda Dobbins?

  I do. We, we talked about the BAFTAs and we talked about this, you know, the surprises. And then we listed all the awards that one battle after another won. The BAFTAs are not as predictive. And I, I do think that there is a lot of movement for Sinners, but we have seen in the last few years that the race is decided quite early. And then losers like ourselves spend a lot of time trying to make things interesting until mid-March.

• 1:10:24Sean Fennessey?

  Like who selves?

• 1:10:25Amanda Dobbins?

  And, and it's not. It's that, you know, it's everything everywhere. It's Oppenheimer. It's, uh, Anora. So.

• 1:10:32Sean Fennessey?

  Sometimes Coda happens.

• 1:10:34Amanda Dobbins?

  Sometimes Coda happens. I was on leave for Coda, so.

• 1:10:36Sean Fennessey?

  You don't count that one.

• 1:10:37Amanda Dobbins?

  Yeah, so I don't acknowledge it.

• 1:10:38Sean Fennessey?

  That never happened. Coda, beautiful movie. Like that movie.

• 1:10:41Amanda Dobbins?

  I cried. Yeah. Listen, I'm a human being.

• 1:10:43Sean Fennessey?

  Me too.

• 1:10:44Amanda Dobbins?

  I cried before I had a child.

• 1:10:45Sean Fennessey?

  I just love to have a daughter. That's been the best thing that's ever happened to me. And Coda is powerful truth about that.

• 1:10:51Amanda Dobbins?

  Okay.

• 1:10:53Sean Fennessey?

  Let's do the rankings.

• 1:10:54Amanda Dobbins?

  Yeah.

• 1:10:54Sean Fennessey?

  I don't know that we need to dramatically shift what we had, but I'm curious how you thought. I thought there was a chance, and the reason I scheduled this for this time, I thought there was a chance that Hamnett could win at BAFTA. Because BAFTA is not very predictive and it tends to not match with Best Picture, Hamnett did in fact win Best British Film at the BAFTAs. I thought we were going to be like, okay, is this actually a three horse race? And that was the convo we were going to have.

• 1:11:18Amanda Dobbins?

  I don't think so.

• 1:11:18Sean Fennessey?

  And that's not the conversation we're going to have. So last time we did this in January, we had number 10 F1, number nine Begonia, number eight Train Dreams, number seven The Secret Agent, number six Frankenstein, number five Marty Supreme, number four Sensational Value, number three Hamnett, number two Sinners, number one One Battle After Another.

• 1:11:36Sean Fennessey?

  What's changing? Anything? I know this is a pointless exercise. All awards prognostication is pointless. I hear you guys. I get it. That being said.

• 1:11:47Amanda Dobbins?

  I don't hear you.

• 1:11:48Sean Fennessey?

  Okay.

• 1:11:48Amanda Dobbins?

  This is what we do this podcast for.

• 1:11:50Sean Fennessey?

  Also, people pretend like they don't like this and they listen to all these episodes. All of these episodes always have listenership.

• 1:11:57Amanda Dobbins?

  I don't hear you because I don't read the comments. And also because this is, this is what we do on this podcast for almost 10 years running. How many episodes are we? What episode is this?

• 1:12:07Sean Fennessey?

  We're coming up on 900.

• 1:12:08Amanda Dobbins?

  Okay.

• 1:12:09Sean Fennessey?

  900, I think, is this spring.

• 1:12:10Amanda Dobbins?

  Okay.

• 1:12:11Sean Fennessey?

  900?

• 1:12:12Amanda Dobbins?

  I know.

• 1:12:13Sean Fennessey?

  What?

• 1:12:14Amanda Dobbins?

  It's not 1,000, so.

• 1:12:15Sean Fennessey?

  It's not 1,000. We'll get there.

• 1:12:17Amanda Dobbins?

  Remember when you made me celebrate like 300 or something?

• 1:12:21Sean Fennessey?

  They made you.

• 1:12:21Amanda Dobbins?

  And I, well, no, you did. You put it in.

• 1:12:23Sean Fennessey?

  300, yeah, sure. That's a big number.

• 1:12:25Amanda Dobbins?

  It's not 250, you know?

• 1:12:26Sean Fennessey?

  Oh, you think it's a not interesting number?

• 1:12:28Amanda Dobbins?

  I do.

• 1:12:29Sean Fennessey?

  Okay.

• 1:12:29Amanda Dobbins?

  It's sort of like a 15th anniversary, which I think I said at the time. It's like we're, we're stretching a little.

• 1:12:35Sean Fennessey?

  So you only care every 250?

• 1:12:37Amanda Dobbins?

  No, I just, I think that 250, 500, 750. I mean, 750 is really also, I don't think we did anything, right?

• 1:12:46Sean Fennessey?

  We did not do 750.

• 1:12:46Amanda Dobbins?

  Yeah, no, no, no. It's 250, 500, and then 1,000.

• 1:12:50Sean Fennessey?

  I think we should have an anniversary episode every six episodes. I think that would go well.

• 1:12:55Amanda Dobbins?

  Okay.

• 1:12:56Sean Fennessey?

  We're, we're going to formally rank these. Are you ready?

• 1:12:58Amanda Dobbins?

  Yeah.

• 1:12:58Sean Fennessey?

  So today's Best Picture Power Rankings is brought to you by Volkswagen. It's easy to sit back and watch life go by like you're watching a movie of someone else's story play out, but you'll never get where you want to be that way. So this is a call from us, VW and all the other drivers out there. Take control and make the most of every moment like many of the characters in the movies we're talking about today.

• 1:13:18Sean Fennessey?

  We have 10 moves.

• 1:13:18Amanda Dobbins?

  Yeah.

• 1:13:19Sean Fennessey?

  I, I.

• 1:13:20Amanda Dobbins?

  Is anything changing?

• 1:13:21Sean Fennessey?

  Yes, but Begonia hasn't won shit, so that is moving from nine to 10, in my opinion. F1 at least is in the race for sound, for editing. We could have like a Ford v Ferrari editing win here for, for F1. That's in play.

• 1:13:36Amanda Dobbins?

  Oh.

• 1:13:36Sean Fennessey?

  You know, like sometimes a kind of non-competitor that is in the Best Picture race gets into that race, like, that's plausible to me.

• 1:13:43Amanda Dobbins?

  But only if it involves cars going really fast.

• 1:13:45Sean Fennessey?

  It helps. It definitely helps.

• 1:13:48Amanda Dobbins?

  Cause you gotta cut from the one car to the other.

• 1:13:50Sean Fennessey?

  Well, he's got all those cameras mounted on the cars.

• 1:13:53Amanda Dobbins?

  It's good editing.

• 1:13:54Sean Fennessey?

  Kaczynski, my guy, my dog.

• 1:13:56Amanda Dobbins?

  Yeah, I'm right there. I'm, I've been there from the beginning. I think.

• 1:14:00Sean Fennessey?

  Begonia, what's happened, what's happened to Begonia?

• 1:14:02Amanda Dobbins?

  Everyone's happy to see Emma Stone at the awards.

• 1:14:04Sean Fennessey?

  Lanthimos, you in?

• 1:14:06Amanda Dobbins?

  I'm in. I'm pro.

• 1:14:09Sean Fennessey?

  I enjoyed Begonia.

• 1:14:10Amanda Dobbins?

  I liked Begonia more than I liked Poor Things, so that's where I am.

• 1:14:14Sean Fennessey?

  I think I like him about the same.

• 1:14:15Amanda Dobbins?

  Okay.

• 1:14:16Sean Fennessey?

  I think every Lanthimos movie to me that isn't The Lobster or Dog Tooth is like a seven.

• 1:14:23Sean Fennessey?

  The Lobster and Dog Tooth, those are a nine.

• 1:14:25Amanda Dobbins?

  Okay, what, and The Favorite?

• 1:14:27Sean Fennessey?

  It's like a seven, it's good.

• 1:14:29Amanda Dobbins?

  Okay.

• 1:14:29Sean Fennessey?

  It's a three and a half out of five.

• 1:14:30Amanda Dobbins?

  The Favorite an eight. And Lobster and Dog Tooth, I agree, nine.

• 1:14:37Amanda Dobbins?

  Begonia, sure, I guess Begonia and Poor Things are both a seven because Poor Things, the first time you see it, really great. The second time you see it, you're like, uh huh, yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 1:14:45Sean Fennessey?

  It's like 14 hours long.

• 1:14:46Amanda Dobbins?

  It's just a, yeah.

• 1:14:48Sean Fennessey?

  Why is that movie so long?

• 1:14:48Amanda Dobbins?

  Gowns, beautiful gowns. No, I get it.

• 1:14:50Sean Fennessey?

  I like it, I like it.

• 1:14:51Amanda Dobbins?

  It's, it's good.

• 1:14:52Sean Fennessey?

  It's okay, it's very similar to How to Make a Killing Conversation, it was a good time. Enjoyed it, a couple of ideas, good performance, love to go to the movies. But it's a number 10, Begonia.

• 1:15:02Amanda Dobbins?

  Oh, yeah, it is, but I enjoyed it.

• 1:15:04Sean Fennessey?

  I did too. Um, F1 number nine, or is F1, is it Zoom and Vroom and Past Train Dreams?

• 1:15:10Amanda Dobbins?

  Train Dreams also, well, it's one of a couple of cinematography things.

• 1:15:14Sean Fennessey?

  It could win cinematography. And that's how we're grading this, is sort of like, what are you getting on the board? And is Train Dreams gonna get anything on the board on Oscar night? It's not nominated in very many places.

• 1:15:24Amanda Dobbins?

  Yeah. But

• 1:15:26Sean Fennessey?

  Is this song Train Dreams by, from Train Dreams by Nick Cave nominated?

• 1:15:30Amanda Dobbins?

  I believe so.

• 1:15:31Sean Fennessey?

  But Nick Cave will not be performing. Hey, you know what? Let's pause for a second. K-pop Demon Hunters being added to the Criterion Collection.

• 1:15:37Amanda Dobbins?

  I saw.

• 1:15:38Sean Fennessey?

  Oh, my God. Let's go. Are you serious?

• 1:15:42Amanda Dobbins?

  Does Alice get her own copy?

• 1:15:44Sean Fennessey?

  Of course. That's the whole thing. That's what we're about to do.

• 1:15:46Amanda Dobbins?

  So cute.

• 1:15:47Sean Fennessey?

  Welcome to the collection. Put Alice in the closet. Come on.

• 1:15:51Amanda Dobbins?

  Oh, my gosh.

• 1:15:51Sean Fennessey?

  This is huge.

• 1:15:52Amanda Dobbins?

  Knox would, Knox would come too.

• 1:15:54Sean Fennessey?

  Well, yeah, he'll also be getting his own copy, obviously. I think, uh, just an ingenious move by Criterion.

• 1:15:59Amanda Dobbins?

  He wants the tiger.

• 1:16:01Sean Fennessey?

  Oh, yeah. What's the tiger called?

• 1:16:02Amanda Dobbins?

  I don't.

• 1:16:03Sean Fennessey?

  Derpy?

• 1:16:03Amanda Dobbins?

  Yeah, Derpy. Yeah, he, he would just, he would like Derpy in some form.

• 1:16:06Sean Fennessey?

  Okay, I'll, I'll clock that from the next, the next birthday.

• 1:16:09Amanda Dobbins?

  He did, he did randomly go upstairs and then just like emerge with my Bring It On, uh, 4K that you got me for my birthday. Hey, what's this?

• 1:16:18Sean Fennessey?

  That's what this is all about. Putting K-pop Demon Hunters in the collection, a whole new generation of physical media kids. Fucking love it.

• 1:16:24Amanda Dobbins?

  Yeah.

• 1:16:25Sean Fennessey?

  All right, I'm sorry. Uh, I, F1 at number, I? Train Dreams at number nine.

• 1:16:31Amanda Dobbins?

  And F1 at eight. I think that F1 has a better chance at sound and possibly editing than Train Dreams has at cinematography.

• 1:16:39Sean Fennessey?

  Very interesting take.

• 1:16:41Amanda Dobbins?

  Right? I think it's like F1 has a possibility, a stronger possibility in two categories than Train Dreams has in the one.

• 1:16:47Sean Fennessey?

  The case for Train Dreams in cinematography is most people have to shoot on digital, digital, and they know how hard it is to make digital look like that.

• 1:16:56Amanda Dobbins?

  It is.

• 1:16:56Sean Fennessey?

  And so there is a little bit of an acknowledgement, but I.

• 1:17:00Amanda Dobbins?

  Do they know? This is actually my question.

• 1:17:03Sean Fennessey?

  I don't know. It's actually the.

• 1:17:04Amanda Dobbins?

  Do they know? Where are standards? Whatever.

• 1:17:06Sean Fennessey?

  And, and, and what Michael Baumann does and what Autumn Dural, Archipod do are very different in those two frontrunners. One is this very kind of like, um, David Lean-esque portrait of big vistas. And the other is this very contrasty, dark, colorful, musical kind of that historically athletic, you know, there are a couple of big oners and centers. There are two different approaches to this stuff. Um, Train Dreams is a bit more magisterial, a bit more Terrence Malick. So they're all different, these different types that are up in that category. I think Train Dreams is nine because I don't think it's going to win anything. I think F1 getting a, getting a win. Now is the secret agent getting a win?

• 1:17:46Amanda Dobbins?

  You think it's going to be sentimental value?

• 1:17:47Sean Fennessey?

  I do.

• 1:17:48Amanda Dobbins?

  An international feature?

• 1:17:48Sean Fennessey?

  I do.

• 1:17:49Amanda Dobbins?

  I do. Sentimental sentimental value is very strong.

• 1:17:53Sean Fennessey?

  It is.

• 1:17:54Amanda Dobbins?

  People really like it.

• 1:17:55Sean Fennessey?

  Yes.

• 1:17:55Amanda Dobbins?

  People really like it in the nominations.

• 1:17:58Sean Fennessey?

  It won at BAFTA for non-English language film.

• 1:18:00Amanda Dobbins?

  Yeah.

• 1:18:00Sean Fennessey?

  So, by the way, speaking of, the secret agent follow-up conversation that we will have will happen in March because the film is going to Hulu on March 1st.

• 1:18:07Amanda Dobbins?

  Oh, that's great.

• 1:18:08Sean Fennessey?

  So then, the reason I've been holding off on us having a deeper conversation about the movie is because I feel like people haven't had a chance to see the movie. So I know that those of you who have seen it are like, talk about it, talk about it more, but when a movie plays in like 200 theaters and then goes away for three months, it's a little bit hard to justify it, but it will be on Hulu on March 1st, so we'll talk about it after that.

• 1:18:23Amanda Dobbins?

  Okay.

• 1:18:25Sean Fennessey?

  Is F1 ahead of Secret Agent? Is that crazy?

• 1:18:28Amanda Dobbins?

  That is crazy. Ah, okay, so it, I think international feature is probably the only...

• 1:18:34Sean Fennessey?

  Place where it could win.

• 1:18:35Amanda Dobbins?

  Right.

• 1:18:35Sean Fennessey?

  You've ruled out Wagner Mora.

• 1:18:37Amanda Dobbins?

  Well, I just, he, he's not, he hasn't been back on stage.

• 1:18:41Sean Fennessey?

  Yep.

• 1:18:41Amanda Dobbins?

  You know?

• 1:18:41Sean Fennessey?

  Yeah.

• 1:18:41Amanda Dobbins?

  Um, and he's not going to be on stage with the actors because they didn't nominate him.

• 1:18:46Sean Fennessey?

  Yep.

• 1:18:47Amanda Dobbins?

  Not my decision, it was theirs.

• 1:18:48Sean Fennessey?

  Yep.

• 1:18:49Amanda Dobbins?

  We're not in SAG-AFTRA, as previously discussed.

• 1:18:51Sean Fennessey?

  They hate, should we, should we apply?

• 1:18:54Amanda Dobbins?

  Is that how it works?

• 1:18:55Sean Fennessey?

  Should Netflix podcasters be in SAG? Genuine question. Should Rich Paul and Max Kellerman be in SAG?

• 1:19:02Amanda Dobbins?

  Yes. I, I would honestly love to...

• 1:19:04Sean Fennessey?

  What do you guys think? Yes?

• 1:19:05Amanda Dobbins?

  If they are, then I want them negotiating for me. You know, that's like, that sounds good.

• 1:19:11Sean Fennessey?

  Rich Paul's an Asian.

• 1:19:12Amanda Dobbins?

  That's what I'm saying.

• 1:19:15Sean Fennessey?

  Okay, we can talk to them about that.

• 1:19:16Amanda Dobbins?

  Okay. I don't, I, I get...

• 1:19:19Sean Fennessey?

  This is just a game.

• 1:19:20Amanda Dobbins?

  Okay.

• 1:19:20Sean Fennessey?

  We're just playing a game. I love a game.

• 1:19:22Amanda Dobbins?

  Do you think, right now, you're doing your ballot right now, it's sentimental value over secret agent and international feature?

• 1:19:26Sean Fennessey?

  I already did my ballot for PGA.

• 1:19:28Amanda Dobbins?

  I'm, we are talking about the Oscars?

• 1:19:31Sean Fennessey?

  Like a, like general, like Jim Oscar voter?

• 1:19:33Amanda Dobbins?

  Yeah.

• 1:19:33Sean Fennessey?

  Jane Oscar voter?

• 1:19:34Amanda Dobbins?

  Yes.

• 1:19:36Sean Fennessey?

  I could never get into the minds of those freaks.

• 1:19:38Amanda Dobbins?

  No, how about if you, Sean Fennessey?

• 1:19:40Sean Fennessey?

  Yes.

• 1:19:40Amanda Dobbins?

  Are making your predictions for Oscar night?

• 1:19:42Sean Fennessey?

  And I've been...

• 1:19:43Amanda Dobbins?

  Right now?

• 1:19:44Sean Fennessey?

  Oh.

• 1:19:44Amanda Dobbins?

  That's what I'm saying.

• 1:19:45Sean Fennessey?

  But they will never reveal the vote, so it doesn't matter.

• 1:19:48Amanda Dobbins?

  No, no, Sean, who's winning international feature today?

• 1:19:51Sean Fennessey?

  Oh, international feature.

• 1:19:51Amanda Dobbins?

  You have to pick today. Is it, is it secret agent?

• 1:19:54Sean Fennessey?

  Sentimental value.

• 1:19:54Amanda Dobbins?

  It's sentimental value?

• 1:19:55Sean Fennessey?

  Yeah.

• 1:19:55Amanda Dobbins?

  Okay, I don't know if I'm there yet. I don't have to make that decision right now.

• 1:19:59Sean Fennessey?

  You're so afraid of Brazil.

• 1:20:00Amanda Dobbins?

  I respect it.

• 1:20:01Sean Fennessey?

  Okay.

• 1:20:02Amanda Dobbins?

  You know, I, it's, they are, they are powerful.

• 1:20:06Sean Fennessey?

  Sentimental...

• 1:20:06Amanda Dobbins?

  And I don't read the comments, but I know they're there.

• 1:20:08Sean Fennessey?

  Sentimental value is like...

• 1:20:11Amanda Dobbins?

  I really like The Secret Agent, too.

• 1:20:13Sean Fennessey?

  I do, too. Sentimental value is maybe more special than we realize.

• 1:20:19Amanda Dobbins?

  I know.

• 1:20:20Sean Fennessey?

  And might become a, like, big time movie for a generation of people.

• 1:20:25Amanda Dobbins?

  And I'll never understand that generation.

• 1:20:27Sean Fennessey?

  I don't, I don't, you know what I'm saying?

• 1:20:29Amanda Dobbins?

  I do know what you're saying, and I meant to say that Ryan Coogler specifically thanked Joakim Trier in his speech and was saying that Joakim is a mentor to him.

• 1:20:39Sean Fennessey?

  Oh, wow.

• 1:20:39Amanda Dobbins?

  Was a mentor to him and taught him how to write. And

• 1:20:42Sean Fennessey?

  Oh, wow.

• 1:20:42Amanda Dobbins?

  He loved that film, so I see what you're saying.

• 1:20:46Sean Fennessey?

  These last two movies, I think, are going to be very influential. And I think they're like, these are, those two movies I see, The Secret Agent is brilliant and strange. Sentimental value and The Worst Person in the World are almost like starter kit international films, where when you're first starting to get into movies and you're like, okay, I'll start watching movies that are not in the English language, they're very easy movies to glide into international cinema. And then you can look at them and be like, okay, there's this history of Norwegian films, Scandinavian film, you find Bergman, you start finding French films, you find the new wave, you move over to Asia, you start looking at Japanese films. So I, you know, you know what I'm saying?

• 1:21:19Amanda Dobbins?

  I do. I, yeah, it's a, it's like, it's a bridge. It's a

• 1:21:24Sean Fennessey?

  A bridge.

• 1:21:24Amanda Dobbins?

  Yeah.

• 1:21:24Sean Fennessey?

  Yes, it's a bridge. So I would say sentimental value, in part because of that, and is very watchable and has stars in it, is way ahead in that race.

• 1:21:31Amanda Dobbins?

  Okay.

• 1:21:31Sean Fennessey?

  But you know what? I could be wrong. I don't know.

• 1:21:32Amanda Dobbins?

  Well, right now, we're trying to decide whether F1 is above The Secret Agent or not, and I, and so

• 1:21:39Sean Fennessey?

  Very cool game.

• 1:21:40Amanda Dobbins?

  That, to me, is like a little bit overcorrecting for your cowardice in your nominations predictions. And ultimately, I leave it to you.

• 1:21:50Sean Fennessey?

  I think F1

• 1:21:51Amanda Dobbins?

  You know, you didn't have the strength of your convictions that morning.

• 1:21:54Sean Fennessey?

  Yeah.

• 1:21:55Amanda Dobbins?

  Do you want to have them now?

• 1:21:55Sean Fennessey?

  I, here's the problem with the way that we're doing this right now. And it's not a problem, it's something I insist upon. F1 is in dead last in the Best Picture race. There's no question in my mind. Everybody is putting it at 10, unless you worked on the movie. And that's okay.

• 1:22:08Amanda Dobbins?

  Yeah.

• 1:22:08Sean Fennessey?

  Because it got there. It got to 10. But that's not what we're talking about right now. We're mixing it up.

• 1:22:12Amanda Dobbins?

  Where did you put it in your preferential PGA ballot? Are you willing to share that with the public?

• 1:22:19Sean Fennessey?

  I don't have a copy of that, but if you just look at my top 100, it's based on wherever the movies fell in my top 100.

• 1:22:24Amanda Dobbins?

  And you don't have that committed to memory? Oh, okay, that's right.

• 1:22:27Sean Fennessey?

  Um, F1 was also, I believe, ahead of Frankenstein. And it was also ahead of

• 1:22:34Sean Fennessey?

  That's it.

• 1:22:34Amanda Dobbins?

  Yeah.

• 1:22:35Sean Fennessey?

  I mean, One Battle is my favorite movie of the year. Sinners was my number five. Secret Agent was my number six and Sentimental Value was my number seven and Marty was four. So like,

• 1:22:43Amanda Dobbins?

  Oh.

• 1:22:43Sean Fennessey?

  This is the most I've ever matched. This is the most I've ever matched with the Oscars like in my life as a fan.

• 1:22:50Amanda Dobbins?

  Yeah.

• 1:22:50Sean Fennessey?

  Because all my,

• 1:22:51Amanda Dobbins?

  Sean, fantasy, this is your life.

• 1:22:52Sean Fennessey?

  I know. All my peeps got nominated. Like all my people, you know, I've been tracking the Safdie's for 15 years. I've been PTA since I was 12 years old, you know? So this is very strange to be, to be chalk. I am the living embodiment of chalk. Anyway, um, F1 at eight. Secret Agent at seven.

• 1:23:11Amanda Dobbins?

  Someone's gonna make a rude hat with that on it and then you should wear it. I am the living embodiment of chalk.

• 1:23:21Sean Fennessey?

  Did you see that people literally made AI versions of me and Chris in the X-Men costumes that we were talking about?

• 1:23:25Amanda Dobbins?

  No.

• 1:23:25Sean Fennessey?

  The Oscar snub strapped. Yeah, I'm not gonna retweet AI shit, but they used AI to make it. So it was me as Thanos and CR as Cable.

• 1:23:32Amanda Dobbins?

  Okay.

• 1:23:33Sean Fennessey?

  The time traveling.

• 1:23:34Amanda Dobbins?

  What about, what about some hand drawn, you know? Let's, let's put in the work and then I will, I, if someone actually makes it for real, not AI.

• 1:23:43Sean Fennessey?

  Free labor. You're gonna pay? You'll pay for a hand drawn rendition of me as Thanos. Holding the Infinity Gauntlet with all of the gems.

• 1:23:55Amanda Dobbins?

  But it also needs to be, who is Chris?

• 1:23:58Sean Fennessey?

  Cable.

• 1:23:59Amanda Dobbins?

  Okay.

• 1:23:59Sean Fennessey?

  Yeah. And you're gonna be Kitty Pride.

• 1:24:02Amanda Dobbins?

  I'm not a part of this.

• 1:24:04Sean Fennessey?

  You're squirrel girl.

• 1:24:05Amanda Dobbins?

  I'm not. Did you know that Juliette Liman is really into the X-Men?

• 1:24:08Sean Fennessey?

  Who isn't?

• 1:24:09Amanda Dobbins?

  Me. I, I know about them, but I only learned this recently and it was a little bit like, you know, I've been in this relation, you know, this friendship and partnership with this person for 10 years. And then it's like when I married Zach and then he started golfing. I was like, I just, I didn't, this wasn't part of the terms.

• 1:24:28Sean Fennessey?

  I think you are maybe the only exception in my life and people that I fuck with who are not into X-Men. Like if you're not into X-Men, we're not friends.

• 1:24:35Amanda Dobbins?

  I'm not not into them. I just-

• 1:24:38Sean Fennessey?

  They are also a portal to understanding yourself as an adolescent. And she probably watched X-Men, the animated series, as we all did as young kids, except for you, because you were like-

• 1:24:46Amanda Dobbins?

  No.

• 1:24:47Sean Fennessey?

  Playing the piano or something, whatever the fuck you were doing.

• 1:24:49Amanda Dobbins?

  Excuse me.

• 1:24:50Sean Fennessey?

  Something where you alienated yourself from the world by being alone.

• 1:24:53Amanda Dobbins?

  Yeah, it wasn't by choice. It was someone else putting me in the room, but that's fine. Uh, secret agent.

• 1:25:00Sean Fennessey?

  Imagine if you just got into X-Men, how much better would our life be?

• 1:25:04Amanda Dobbins?

  So the one guy-

• 1:25:06Sean Fennessey?

  No, don't, don't even do this. We can't, we can't even do the game where you remember the thing, but you don't know the thing. Not for X-Men. It's too important for you to be like, there's a guy and there's another guy. Well, of course, that's, that's why we're getting these, these Avengers films. They're, they're gonna find a way to launch the next phase.

• 1:25:21Amanda Dobbins?

  And this is all because Disney bought Fox.

• 1:25:25Sean Fennessey?

  Exactly right.

• 1:25:26Amanda Dobbins?

  So-

• 1:25:27Sean Fennessey?

  I think you could make the case that the single biggest reason they bought Fox was for the X-Men.

• 1:25:32Amanda Dobbins?

  Is that worth it to you, Sean Fennessey?

• 1:25:34Sean Fennessey?

  If the movies suck, no. They kill the whole studio.

• 1:25:37Amanda Dobbins?

  But if the, right, but if the movies are worth it, is it worth killing a whole studio? Oh.

• 1:25:44Sean Fennessey?

  I like an X-Men movie, you know, and if you do it right.

• 1:25:48Amanda Dobbins?

  Okay, alright.

• 1:25:50Sean Fennessey?

  I'll, I'll consider it. I don't appreciate, um-

• 1:25:52Amanda Dobbins?

  You love corporations.

• 1:25:53Sean Fennessey?

  The shrinking of the-

• 1:25:54Amanda Dobbins?

  You think they're people.

• 1:25:55Sean Fennessey?

  No, I don't think that there's shrinking of the number of studios, the job loss, I think is a port. And I reject it.

• 1:26:01Amanda Dobbins?

  Okay.

• 1:26:02Sean Fennessey?

  And I have no control over it.

• 1:26:03Amanda Dobbins?

  Is F1 above the secret agent in our power rankings?

• 1:26:06Sean Fennessey?

  It's at number eight. Secret, I think, is the secret agent ahead of Marty Supreme, which might win zero Oscars.

• 1:26:12Amanda Dobbins?

  But might also win best actor.

• 1:26:14Sean Fennessey?

  No.

• 1:26:15Amanda Dobbins?

  So.

• 1:26:16Sean Fennessey?

  Frankenstein is gonna win probably two Oscars.

• 1:26:18Amanda Dobbins?

  Okay.

• 1:26:19Sean Fennessey?

  Maybe one, but probably two.

• 1:26:22Amanda Dobbins?

  Okay.

• 1:26:23Sean Fennessey?

  So does that go ahead of Marty?

• 1:26:26Amanda Dobbins?

  Probably, which is sad.

• 1:26:27Sean Fennessey?

  I think it goes Marty at six, Frankenstein at five. And then I think we stick with sentimental value. Or is sentimental value ahead of Hamnett? Or just because it has best actress, it's good?

• 1:26:41Amanda Dobbins?

  Is Hamnett going to win anything besides best actress? I'm thinking aloud right now.

• 1:26:47Sean Fennessey?

  Almost certainly not.

• 1:26:48Amanda Dobbins?

  Yeah. So.

• 1:26:53Amanda Dobbins?

  And sentimental value were favoring in international feature.

• 1:26:58Sean Fennessey?

  We are.

• 1:26:59Amanda Dobbins?

  And possibly in a supporting category.

• 1:27:03Sean Fennessey?

  Could be Stellan Skarsgård, could be Inga Ypsodder-Lilias, could be Rachel Kemp herself, Elle Fanning.

• 1:27:09Amanda Dobbins?

  I don't think that's gonna happen.

• 1:27:12Amanda Dobbins?

  I don't think it's gonna happen in supporting actress, but you know, there is a lot of affection for Joachim Trier. I don't think he's gonna pick up original screenplay or director, though, so. Hmm. I think sentimental value for him at three sinners, too. One battle, one.

• 1:27:31Sean Fennessey?

  I agree.

• 1:27:31Amanda Dobbins?

  Okay.

• 1:27:33Sean Fennessey?

  That's it.

• 1:27:33Amanda Dobbins?

  I think we learned a lot about ourselves.

• 1:27:35Sean Fennessey?

  Which is what?

• 1:27:36Amanda Dobbins?

  And the X-Men.

• 1:27:38Sean Fennessey?

  I think, where would I, where, listeners, send some suggestions, at AK Dobbins, really on any social media platform you like.

• 1:27:45Amanda Dobbins?

  I look at all of them.

• 1:27:47Sean Fennessey?

  Where to start with X-Men? Cause you're a reader. You're a reader.

• 1:27:51Amanda Dobbins?

  Oh, you want me to read?

• 1:27:52Sean Fennessey?

  Yeah. Yeah.

• 1:27:55Amanda Dobbins?

  Like.

• 1:27:56Sean Fennessey?

  You, you watched Spider-verse. You watched Spider-verse with an open heart.

• 1:27:59Amanda Dobbins?

  Yeah, that's true.

• 1:28:00Sean Fennessey?

  You were moved and impressed by the use of color, the dynamism.

• 1:28:04Amanda Dobbins?

  That is true.

• 1:28:04Sean Fennessey?

  Comic books are, again, another kind of bridge to experiencing cinema and the great works. And the X-Men is like a lot of stuff that you like. It's a coming of age story about complicated, stormy young people figuring it out.

• 1:28:17Amanda Dobbins?

  I enjoyed the X-Men films that I have seen, which is.

• 1:28:22Sean Fennessey?

  Only the Bryan Singer ones. Those are the ones you like.

• 1:28:23Amanda Dobbins?

  X-Men First Class.

• 1:28:24Sean Fennessey?

  Yeah.

• 1:28:25Amanda Dobbins?

  Which is Inglourious Basterds, but with superheroes.

• 1:28:27Sean Fennessey?

  Yeah.

• 1:28:27Amanda Dobbins?

  And also with James McAvoy and Michael Fassbender, my guys. I saw the second one.

• 1:28:34Sean Fennessey?

  X2.

• 1:28:35Amanda Dobbins?

  I think I did. I didn't see the last one. I have seen Logan.

• 1:28:40Sean Fennessey?

  Okay, good film.

• 1:28:41Amanda Dobbins?

  And I've seen Deadpool Wolverine.

• 1:28:45Sean Fennessey?

  Deadpool and Wolverine. They're not one person fused together.

• 1:28:49Amanda Dobbins?

  Aren't they?

• 1:28:50Sean Fennessey?

  Well, in that van sequence.

• 1:28:51Amanda Dobbins?

  I think they want to be.

• 1:28:52Sean Fennessey?

  Yeah, they do. They're very in love.

• 1:28:54Amanda Dobbins?

  Um, and assorted other X-Men cameos throughout this. So I'm, I am familiar.

• 1:29:02Sean Fennessey?

  I think the original Singer movies are, are not bad, setting aside the awfulness around Bryan Singer. And in some cases, I love them. In some instant, like in some moments in the movie, I love them, but they never totally got it. And I'm waiting for a movie that will totally get it.

• 1:29:17Amanda Dobbins?

  Okay.

• 1:29:17Sean Fennessey?

  And I think it should be Joachim Trier who makes it.

• 1:29:22Sean Fennessey?

  Just think about what he could do. He is a person who knows how to render that kind of

• 1:29:29Amanda Dobbins?

  Sure.

• 1:29:29Sean Fennessey?

  inner turmoil of all the X-Men. They're all kind of struggling with their power and their responsibility. The sense of teamwork and camaraderie. We're all mutants. Thank you.

• 1:29:40Amanda Dobbins?

  Yeah, it was right there. Yeah.

• 1:29:42Sean Fennessey?

  Yeah. And imagine hearing Renata Ranzva say that as Jean Grey. We would all be changed for the good. Okay.

• 1:29:49Speaker 05

  My middle name, just putting this on the record, is literally Xavier. I was named after, my middle name is after Professor X.

• 1:29:54Sean Fennessey?

  That's fucking beautiful. And also you do have.

• 1:29:57Speaker 05

  He's the dude in the wheelchair.

• 1:29:59Amanda Dobbins?

  Oh, right. Okay.

• 1:30:00Sean Fennessey?

  He's not a dude. He's a professor.

• 1:30:02Amanda Dobbins?

  I know.

• 1:30:03Sean Fennessey?

  Of the school for gifted mutants.

• 1:30:05Amanda Dobbins?

  That's right. But like, what's, what can he do?

• 1:30:08Speaker 05

  He's just super smart.

• 1:30:09Sean Fennessey?

  No, no.

• 1:30:12Sean Fennessey?

  He's a, he's a telepath.

• 1:30:14Amanda Dobbins?

  Oh.

• 1:30:15Sean Fennessey?

  And he can read the mind.

• 1:30:18Amanda Dobbins?

  That seems loud.

• 1:30:18Sean Fennessey?

  That's why Magneto wears that fucking helmet.

• 1:30:20Amanda Dobbins?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 1:30:21Sean Fennessey?

  So that Charles can't get, his old friend Charles can't get inside of his head.

• 1:30:26Amanda Dobbins?

  It seems like you're taking on a lot when you can do that. Can you turn it off? Can you only listen to one thing at a time? Or is it just everyone talking all around you all at once?

• 1:30:34Sean Fennessey?

  He has extraordinary control over this gift, but it does haunt him.

• 1:30:37Amanda Dobbins?

  Does he, does he, has he always had control or did, did he learn that at the school for X-Men?

• 1:30:43Sean Fennessey?

  Well, he started the school.

• 1:30:44Amanda Dobbins?

  I know.

• 1:30:44Sean Fennessey?

  So I don't think he learned at the school he started.

• 1:30:46Amanda Dobbins?

  Was there like a Batman, McGinsley, and me something? What that, what's that guy's? The?

• 1:30:52Sean Fennessey?

  Ra's al Ghul?

• 1:30:55Sean Fennessey?

  Um, no, there's not a Ra's al Ghul to Xavier, I don't think.

• 1:30:59Amanda Dobbins?

  Well, not yet. Wow.

• 1:31:01Sean Fennessey?

  You know, I don't really know a lot about Charles's youth.

• 1:31:04Amanda Dobbins?

  Oh.

• 1:31:05Sean Fennessey?

  But I also don't want like

• 1:31:06Amanda Dobbins?

  You don't want the origin story, sure.

• 1:31:07Sean Fennessey?

  And then Charles was nine years old and here was his trauma. If they give me that, I'm gonna be fucking pissed. I want brand name, drop me into the yellow and blue suits. I want latex on these motherfuckers and I want Xavier in the chair telling them, here's how you fight in the danger room. That's what I need. This is some of the best content I know how to make is talking about what X-Men should be. And I feel good about it. Um, this has really been a year for my youth, seeing all these Star Wars movies now.

• 1:31:35Amanda Dobbins?

  Yeah.

• 1:31:36Sean Fennessey?

  Thinking about Avengers Doomsday, which I might hate, but could lead to good things. It's all happening here on the big picture.

• 1:31:42Amanda Dobbins?

  Okay.

• 1:31:42Sean Fennessey?

  That was today's best picture power rankings and some X-Men chatter brought to you by Volkswagen. A lot of these films wouldn't exist today without someone out there striving to chase after their dreams. So consider this a sign, it's time to become the main protagonist in your life and go after what you want. Learn more at VW.com. Okay, man, I thank you for indulging all of my childhood fascinations.

• 1:32:02Amanda Dobbins?

  I learned a lot.

• 1:32:03Sean Fennessey?

  X-Men.

• 1:32:03Amanda Dobbins?

  Mm-hmm.

• 1:32:04Sean Fennessey?

  Uh, PTA.

• 1:32:06Amanda Dobbins?

  Yeah.

• 1:32:07Sean Fennessey?

  Vampires.

• 1:32:08Amanda Dobbins?

  Yeah.

• 1:32:08Sean Fennessey?

  Um, what else?

• 1:32:10Amanda Dobbins?

  Huntington, Long Island.

• 1:32:11Sean Fennessey?

  Huntington. What a, what an episode.

• 1:32:13Amanda Dobbins?

  I know.

• 1:32:13Sean Fennessey?

  Geez, what a conversation. Now let's go to my conversation with Autumn Derald Arcapaw.

• 1:32:22Sean Fennessey?

  Autumn Derald Arcapaw is here, very happy to have you. You know, I don't have a lot of cinematographers on the show. And I was curious if you could tell me what the first movie you saw, maybe that didn't make you wanna make films, but that had a big emotional impact on you.

• 1:32:37Speaker 06

  Yes. It's interesting you clarify that because they are two different things, right? Um, I think it was The Last Emperor, to be honest.

• 1:32:46Sean Fennessey?

  Oh, how old were you?

• 1:32:47Speaker 06

  I was probably ten or nine or something. Actually, my, my, my son is ten. So it feels like that zone of, of child.

• 1:32:57Sean Fennessey?

  Are you showing him things like Bertolucci films?

• 1:32:59Speaker 06

  Um, no, but I did have to watch Ben Hur the other day because I was doing the, um, extras on the new, um, remaster and he came in when I was re-watching The Chariot Race. And I'm like, you have to go to bed. And he's like, no, no, I want to finish watching this. And he was mesmerized by it. So that's probably the most adult vintage film that I've let him watch.

• 1:33:22Sean Fennessey?

  Interesting.

• 1:33:22Speaker 06

  Not full film, but.

• 1:33:23Sean Fennessey?

  What struck you about The Last Emperor?

• 1:33:25Speaker 06

  Um, I feel like I'm always someone who loves scope and, you know, that cinematic phrase. So if something is cinematic, like I love a big camera, um, a landscape, you know, like it, I want to feel like I'm making a movie. And that movie felt like that. It was like beyond me. Like I felt like I was, you know, I was felt small, you know? And I felt like, what is this world, you know? This child, it felt real. Like that little kid felt like he was really the last emperor.

• 1:33:54Sean Fennessey?

  That's really interesting because your, your last couple of films have been very big in scope, but your early work is not. And I was wondering if you kind of like, I know you didn't set out when you were nine or 10 to do this. And, and did you stumble into it? How would you describe the way you got into this line of work?

• 1:34:10Speaker 06

  Um, I mean, I've always been a photographer. Like I, I, early on, I think I always had a camera with me. Not knowing that that was a career choice, but just I was very interested in capturing my family and friends.

• 1:34:24Speaker 06

  And then it progressed into like, I'd say college, I had a little camcorder, mini TV. And I'd make videos on an iMovie and put music over them. And I still didn't know that that had, you know, wasn't like a filmmaker type of person. It was just like, I wanted to capture my friends. And it wasn't until later, because I went to LMU for art history.

• 1:34:43Sean Fennessey?

  Okay.

• 1:34:43Speaker 06

  That I decided that I wanted to like, look further into what the DP was doing. Because I saw two movies in a genre course, Broadway, Danny Rose and Raging Bull. And after that, I was hooked. I'd write a paper on both. And then I started like looking into what a DP did or what that meant. And I couldn't really find much. And I took an extension course at UCLA. They had like a night course.

• 1:35:05Sean Fennessey?

  Wow.

• 1:35:06Speaker 06

  For like cinematography. That was the first thing. My boss bought me that course. I was working in advertising at a desk and he bought me the course to go check it out.

• 1:35:15Sean Fennessey?

  Black and white films. Why did they, why did those hit?

• 1:35:18Speaker 06

  I think, I mean, I just really like, I remember the faces. Like in the, in just the world that both of those films built. And if you like, look at the extras, like how they curate extras, both of those directors. You know, they're real people, real faces. It feels like a real world that they're building. And I'm, I'm a sucker for contrast and like, you know, like lighting as a character. So those, both of those films, I feel like do that really well.

• 1:35:47Sean Fennessey?

  What happened after the extension course? Were you like this, I'm going to set myself on a path to doing, being someone who does this professionally?

• 1:35:53Speaker 06

  Yeah, I mean, it was really like full force, I think, because, you know, I went to LMU and that's a school where it's a great school in LA, but it's loans, right? So, and I think, you know, after that, I'm like, well, I want to learn how to do this. And the best place, if you don't have family or friends in the business, is like, look at film schools. So I found AFI. And I started working on sets because you can like work for free on their cycle films. And so I was a scripty and then a grip. And then the kids in the program were like, you should apply. You should apply to this program. And so that's kind of how I had my in and I, you know, took out some loans and I didn't get in my first year that I applied. I got in the second year.

• 1:36:34Sean Fennessey?

  Interesting.

• 1:36:35Speaker 06

  And so I was just like committed, like I really felt like I wanted to do that job. Or at least learn it and see if I could succeed.

• 1:36:42Sean Fennessey?

  You weren't stymied by not getting in the first year?

• 1:36:44Speaker 06

  Um, I was, I was. I mean, no one wants to be told no.

• 1:36:48Sean Fennessey?

  Yeah.

• 1:36:48Speaker 06

  You know, and I thought I had a pretty good reel. Like, it was mostly photography and then I like pretended like I shot stuff and put together like a compilation of shots, make it look like I had a short film. No, I was discouraged, but I still was like, I'm gonna do this. And then I found a job because the advice was go get more experience on set. You have no set experience. I think you should go get more experience. So I took a year off and quit my job in advertising. And I found a job as an A C on a documentary TV show called On The Road In America.

• 1:37:19Sean Fennessey?

  What's an A C?

• 1:37:20Speaker 06

  Assistant camera. So I was like helping, I wasn't pulling focus because it was on Panasonic like cameras at the time. I was like, you know, giving the D P filters and traveling around and in charge of all the camera equipment, setting up tripods, like, kind of like stuff like this, you know, like, stuff I could manage, but the focus was autofocus for the operator.

• 1:37:42Sean Fennessey?

  I'm always curious about trying to get work when you do this line of work. Because like, how do you, it's not like you're an actor where you are auditioning before a group and there's a call and you come in and you do it. Or if you're a writer-director, you create material and you send it off and you hope your agents can get interest from somewhere. For what you do, how do you go from, I went to A F I to I am not only getting jobs, but making a real living doing what I like?

• 1:38:09Speaker 06

  Yeah. No, it's funny because that's the question. Like, if I'm doing Q and A's, the students that come and then line up and want to talk, it's always like, how do I get to where you are?

• 1:38:20Sean Fennessey?

  Yeah.

• 1:38:21Speaker 06

  Knowing that like, I know you went to school. And it's not, there's no formula, right? It's really about like, I felt like the year that I got in that program, had I gotten in the year before, my life would be completely different. It's the people that you surround yourself with that actually like create that path. So the students in the program become your best friends. And then when you graduate, they're the ones getting you jobs, you know? It's like, I can't do this job. Like, my classmate was like, you know, he was working with Giacopla. He couldn't shoot that day of like a test shoot where he she was doing for Franco. Cause he wanted to see like the vibe that she was creating for Palo Alto. And so he's like, I can't make it. Can you fill in for me?

• 1:39:04Speaker 06

  So I filled in for him. Um, we were shooting like a test shoot soccer, the soccer scene. And we hit it off and then, you know, she's my best friend, you know? So it's like, it's those little things that create that, you know? So and then you you foster that by like, you know, I'm always there for, you know, my friends. And you're doing a ton of free work. I mean, it's a lot of free work. You have to be prepared to really just put yourself out there and shoot stuff for free.

• 1:39:30Sean Fennessey?

  It's really interesting. I'm curious about the Gia collaborations. Cause you've now worked with her on every film that she's made. And they're so, they're very different from Ryan's movies, you know? And it feels like, they feel handheld, they feel um, much more like grounded. And uh, you know, smaller, like budgetarily at least. So like, were those a, you said you were into scope, like you were in a big movie. So how do you like situate yourself? I assume part of it is just like, I really want to get a job and I've connected with someone. But talk about like artistically, getting in line with something that isn't exactly how you saw yourself making films.

• 1:40:05Speaker 06

  Yeah, no, it's a good, it's a good point. Cause like, I would say, like I gravitated, like I, there were like, you know, more indie French films that I think I saw. Or like one car way films that were like, you knew those were made with a group of people over a very long period of time, probably just running around kind of vibe. But you're not wrong. Like I, I do like those bigger scopy movies. But you have to wait for that part of your career to catch up with you. Cause you don't always, you know, it's like, the industry sees Palo Alto. And then it becomes like, oh, she's, you know, doing the um, kind of teenage movie. And then you're getting offered teenage rom coms or, you know, you, you get pigeonholed in that kind of process.

• 1:40:48Speaker 06

  And because we were making that with friends and running around, um, which is fun. That's kind of how Last Showgirl was made too, on a different level. But no, it took me a while to kind of get people to offer me other stuff. And then that would be a Loki, you know, then Loki comes and finally, you know, it has some scope, you know, those are big episodes, big budget, you know, we could play around. So I was wanting that before, you know, I got offered that, but I also had a son, so I took a little bit of time off. So yeah, you're not wrong. I was trying to get out of like that teenage, more like indie.

• 1:41:26Sean Fennessey?

  That's interesting. I have a couple of questions about Loki. So I feel like there's like an agreed upon visual style to some extent in that world of storytelling. And there's like a larger apparatus, I assume for creative approval than when you're working with someone like Gia, who you know, and you're working with a small crew and it's a smaller budget. Even though you want to get bigger in scope, like how do you get comfortable working differently?

• 1:41:52Speaker 06

  Yeah, I mean, anyone who works in film, I mean, I'm generalizing, but it's like low budget, big budget, there's never enough time and there's never enough money. A lot of the job on big budget stuff, you have more management, right? Because there's more, there's more money, there's more management, you know? And also, it's like, you know, you have a bigger SFX team, or maybe there's more visual effects, or maybe you're traveling a whole crew somewhere like Puerto Rico and you have to shoot a big scene there, you know? So it's, you know, I love that when you start out in indie, you have to make something from nothing look amazing. So you're really good at like, you know, knowing what you want and telling someone else what you want quickly. And in order to like have, you

• 1:42:36Speaker 06

  know, a small amount of resources, but make something look like it's more expensive. So if you dabble in that pool for a while, you get very good at that, right? Like you know how to use the sun, you know how to schedule the day in order to get the best shot. You know how to tell people what you're looking for, you know, you walk in a room and I can tell you like, what's the scene about? And I can really figure out, you know, what it's going to take to make that look good. And so then you jump to bigger budget stuff. It's like, it's really like management and you have to, you know, there's money on the line, but it's also you're answering to studio. Whereas before on Small Stuff, you're more in charge, like you're, you have all the power to make those decisions. But that was a really good project where we could kind of reinvent the wheel. Like, you know, they were doing the three streamers. You know,

• 1:43:21Speaker 06

  the whole world could be new. Tom was a real like proponent in like, let's do something great. Let's, let's really like break the mold here. So that helps when you have someone that's backing you, as lovely as him. So yeah, I mean, it's a lot of management. Yeah. It's something that no one wants to talk about. Cause like, oh, creative. It's amazing. But

• 1:43:41Sean Fennessey?

  Yeah. I mean, you just have such an interesting stark contrast. It almost feels like it's like phase one and phase two, to use the terminology of empty MCU. Before we get into Sinners and your relationship with Ryan, you know, you have two credits with Khalil Joseph and Spike on docs. And I really like both of those docs that you worked on. And I'm curious, you know, and they're very different.

• 1:44:03Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 1:44:03Sean Fennessey?

  Khalil's film and the Beastie Boys movie. So like, how did you get involved in those? And, you know, is that something that you also are still interested in pursuing? Or, you know, what's your relationship to documentary in general?

• 1:44:14Speaker 06

  Well, that's cool. Yeah. The, I, I worked with Khalil. Again, I met Khalil through Classmate at AFI. And we did a lot of stuff, like he was doing the Arcade Fire kind of documentary, but we were covering various concerts within that year. So I did the LA concert. Actually, Lil Crawley did the London one. I think Malik Said did the Montreal one.

• 1:44:40Sean Fennessey?

  Oh, yeah.

• 1:44:40Speaker 06

  And then I did Haiti and the LA one. And so

• 1:44:45Sean Fennessey?

  That's an insane trio, by the way, of

• 1:44:46Speaker 06

  Yeah. Back then, it was, you know, these were people that I think, I, I think I might have known Lol, cause like, we would exchange messages and stuff, cause we had some mutual friends. I'd no, I have yet to meet Malik.

• 1:44:59Sean Fennessey?

  He's like a mystery, man.

• 1:45:01Speaker 06

  Well, I messaged him.

• 1:45:02Sean Fennessey?

  His first film credit in like 20 years last year. It's crazy.

• 1:45:05Speaker 06

  No, he's a, he's a goat for sure. And I almost had a chance to meet him recently, but But so it was it was really cool because if you watch the whole thing, they're all very different shows, especially the Haiti one. And so I love that stuff that I do with Khalil. He also creates a family. You feel like you're in a community. I'm good friends with Bradford Young. He's someone who recommended me to Ryan. And so Bradford's earlier work with Khalil, there's some Say George, I don't know if you've seen this stuff.

• 1:45:33Sean Fennessey?

  Yes, wow.

• 1:45:34Speaker 06

  It's beautiful. And I remember when I saw it, I was like, who shot that? And then the producer was like, I'll connect you. And that was the first time I was connected with Bradford after I saw that work because it was so like singular and I needed to know who shot it. And then obviously, you know, Bradford. But so I love doing that stuff. You know, I met a lot of great people in traveling with them and creating like communities with these people that I was making stuff with. And then, you know, Spike with Gia, like I obviously, he was aware of my work with her. And so I met Spike and I did both of those together. Like we, I knew that I was signing on to both and they were one after the other. And I actually just did a commercial with Spike. So I reunited with him recently

• 1:46:16Speaker 06

  for Instacart for the Super Bowl with Ben Stiller. So it's just, it's, you're working with people you are, you want to be friends with, honestly. I mean, that's the way that I feel. They're people that I would hang out with outside of work. We get along well. They're very like, yeah, to use the word again, like singular. It's like these, these people have a very clear vision of how they like to do things. And I love that, you know.

• 1:46:39Sean Fennessey?

  I mean, I hope this is received in the right way. Cinematographers and directors and their relationships are always really interesting. Sometimes they're like true partnerships.

• 1:46:51Speaker 06

  Yes.

• 1:46:51Sean Fennessey?

  And they share. And sometimes they have a kind of adversarial quality that does create something special, at least in my understanding of movie history. How do you, what do you want? What do you pursue? Like, do you want a little tension, a little friction? Do you want it to just be we are same page, lockstep all the way through? Like, how do you think about it?

• 1:47:09Speaker 06

  Um, I mean, I feel like I have made choices with people that are good people, that respect the crew. That respect the crew's time, that bring me on to break bread because they know that I will add to that vision and have something to offer. So it's it's a very kind of good environment, you know. I mean, we're in the thick of it, like when I'm doing movies with Ryan, you know, these are big projects. So, you know, stuff comes up where it's like, we're we're in war, you know, not together, we're we're trying to make the movie. But we're always on the same

• 1:47:50Speaker 06

  page. I'm there to support that person. That's my job and their vision. And so if I pick people that have visions that align with mine, it goes better for me. Not to say I haven't done projects with, I won't name those, you know, projects, but with people where it did not go great. And then you don't work with those people again, you know.

• 1:48:08Sean Fennessey?

  Right.

• 1:48:09Speaker 06

  Or it's you just know it's not the right fit because it's too much of a time commitment in your own personal self insanity, I feel like, to work with someone you don't like.

• 1:48:21Sean Fennessey?

  Don't I know it. I'm curious about what happens before you start shooting with a movie like Sinners. You could speak to this for Wakanda Forever 2, though I know it's a somewhat different experience. But I know that I know the story of it being presented as a 60 millimeter project, and then that changing at a certain point. But for you, maybe personally, singularly, individually, and then also you and Ryan, like, what are you doing before the shoot begins?

• 1:48:47Speaker 06

  Yeah. I mean, because I met him on Wakanda, like, there is no movie that's, in my opinion, that's gonna be bigger than that. I mean, maybe our, like, if we do another movie, because he's just always doing, he's always up in the ante every time I get a phone call. It's like, we're always like, we're doing that? What? So, but on that project, it lasted a year long. And, you know, if you, which you've seen it, and so it's like, you know, we did underwater, you know, we traveled a bit on that project. I mean, we were doing so much stuff on that movie, and it lasted a year long. So it's like, you really get to know somebody. And like how they like to make films and we make those films with the same team.

• 1:49:27Speaker 06

  So we got very close and we, you know, and emotionally that film was a kind of a big deal with for Ryan.

• 1:49:35Sean Fennessey?

  Um.

• 1:49:36Speaker 06

  And so it was like you, we were all really there for him and each other. And so, um, it was a great experience, but it was a lot of work. It was a lot of hard work. And so in going into Sinners, it's funny because I always say like, oh, Sinners might have been harder. And Ryan's like, really? But I think for me, it's like, I care so much about him that it's always the first thing that for me is like him telling me what the movie means to him and what he's after. And so, um, it's as simple as that. It's like a phone call he gives me. I read the script. I send him an email because we're not living in the same town and I kind of give my thoughts. I read the Sinner script the, the night before I shot Showgirl. And so, um, wanted to get all my thoughts out because that's when he sent it to me.

• 1:50:19Speaker 06

  And, um, you know, then we had a phone call after I finished that because it was like an 18 day shoot, so it wasn't very long. And he just talks to me, you know, he tells me what's important to him. We talk about character arc. He usually gives me a reference that means something that's very important. But that's the call. It's like, he's that kind of filmmaker. It's like, it's all inside of him and he's so, um, unique in how he writes and the characters he creates that like, I want to hear what he, what it means to him. And so I'll take notes, I'll write that stuff down. And it happened on Wakanda, Wakanda too, like, um, there are a lot of through lines and kind of things that were important to him in that film, like the female characters were, were more prominent in this round of film and, um, migration. And so all these things I take notes.

• 1:51:04Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 1:51:06Sean Fennessey?

  What is that? How much of, how instructive is that script for you in terms of like the moves, the look in, in for Sinners in particular?

• 1:51:14Speaker 06

  Okay.

• 1:51:15Sean Fennessey?

  You know, sort of like, is he describing on the page? Because I haven't read the screenplay. Where the camera's moving, where it's going, what we're seeing in those moments in a specific way that you want, or that then becomes a discussion point between the two of you. I think I'm very curious about that partnership and kind of landing on what the film becomes versus what he puts on the page at the start.

• 1:51:34Speaker 06

  No, there isn't. And it's interesting because I just did a Q and A, a crafts Q and A, and Hannah Beekler, who's his production designer, who's like a sister to me, she was mentioning that since, because she's done everything with him, since the first time, there's less description. And she was like, I wonder if that's because like, you know, we're a team now and like, you know, there's, you know, it's also when you probably start out, maybe there's more description.

• 1:51:59Sean Fennessey?

  It does feel like every department head now has been consistent over the last couple of movies, too, where it's like, you guys must have like a, like a hive mind a little bit with how you're working on the films.

• 1:52:09Speaker 06

  No, it's very nice. I mean, like, you have to really find your, your place, you know, like, in, in the world. But like, if your world is filmmaking, it's like, it's very important. Like, I feel like I thrive in the right environment. Like, you know, I've, I've put myself in, in a place where, you know, I can do my best work. And, and I always tell students, I was like, go look for that place. Because you don't know what it is until you find it. And you might not, you might be in that place, and it's not the right place, but you have to take a jump. So with, with him, I do feel like, you know, it's always so fleshed out. Like, the characters feel so full and real, realized, which is very nice. You feel like, you can't put it down when you read his scripts. Like, they're

• 1:52:54Speaker 06

  very good. He's a very good screenwriter. It's funny, I'm always surprised by that after I read. I'm like, damn, that was a good script. Because, yeah, I don't get that many of them. And I insult text him, like, you're really good at this. And, and very genuinely.

• 1:53:06Sean Fennessey?

  Yeah.

• 1:53:07Speaker 06

  So, no, it's, you know, it's, it's not in there, but it's, he's very clear. Like, he loves to move the camera, as do I. And so when we're in our prep and we're boarding, he likes to board everything. And we do pre-vis on, you know, more complex things. It's all there. Like, in prep, we go over it. And, you know, for instance, the grocery store one, or like, that's something that he wanted so that it Was a very fluid shot that could show, you know, the black side of the street and the white side of the street. So that's like a shot, for instance, that, um, you know, we talk about because he, you know, wants to do that in prep. And I have to figure out how to make that execute it logistically because it's very complex scene of lighting and camera. The oneer inside the juke, that's something that's written, it was written in like a paragraph in italics.

• 1:53:51Speaker 06

  But we figure it out in prep, like, you know, he's like, I would like it to be one fluid shot. You know, so what tool do you think, you know, we're using there and, you know, it's a discussion. So stuff like that, it's all very much like certain things I think he has in his mind are oneers. Or shots, and then we discuss it.

• 1:54:11Sean Fennessey?

  Do you like a harder sequence like that, a more challenging sequence?

• 1:54:14Speaker 06

  I do, yes.

• 1:54:15Sean Fennessey?

  Just because it's a problem solving thing that is fun, like what aspect of it do you enjoy?

• 1:54:21Speaker 06

  I mean, I love stuff and he's someone that I think I thrive in that environment where it's like. If the more difficult, the better, like I'm very technical and I love working things out. And I love that it ultimately doesn't look technical. Does that make sense?

• 1:54:35Sean Fennessey?

  Yeah, of course. That's how those movies feel. They feel like you are inside them.

• 1:54:39Speaker 06

  Yes, exactly. I want people to feel it, like I want you to to watch it and and to feel it here. And so, um, all the stuff that goes into that takes such a big team, so many people working it out. But if you've done your job really well, then they don't feel like it's a shot like in that way, you know, like they don't feel the hand of the creator. So he's he's like that. He he's always like, you know, you know, we're gonna shoot large format. An orca is gonna jump over the freeway and we're gonna have a fight sequence. You know, it's like everyone's gonna act underwater and we're gonna figure it out, you know? And I'm like, game on, you know, I have a really good crew. And so, so it's fun. It's a fun job when you when you have someone like that that wants to.

• 1:55:22Speaker 06

  Open up the box.

• 1:55:23Sean Fennessey?

  I know you're very technologically minded when it comes to a lot of this. And I said before we started, like, I would love for you to talk to me and the listeners of the show, like, I'm 11. So like, I know anamorphic lenses is really important to you. Why, what does that mean and why is that important? Is something, because you can speak to its value, but like, help us understand on a really ground level, why this matters to the film and what it accomplishes.

• 1:55:49Speaker 06

  Yeah, no, I'll speak to it like if you're 11 because I think, even till this day, like I do a lot of commercials and I love the anamorphic format. And then you'll say, let's shoot this commercial anamorphic and the agency won't understand or they, it's too complex or VFX will push back or whatever. And it's like, it's an understanding of something that they're making more technical than it needs to be. It's a, for me, it's a feeling. It's a lens, it's a particular format, but it's a lens that makes me feel differently. And that's why I like to use it. And that's where it came from originally with me with 70s films. You know, like if I saw Manhattan, it's like, why does that look different? Why does Manhattan look different to me, you know? It was shot in anamorphic.

• 1:56:34Speaker 06

  And so for me, early on, I think like Vilmos Zigman, you know, Lazlo Kovacs, like these films, like I was watching these films and they felt vintage, they felt different, they felt textured. And, and so then I was like, what is that? You know, so at film school, I would take out an anamorphic lens and I was shooting it, you know, mostly on film, 35 millimeter. So, you know, it's a squeeze factor. So it's taking a lens and squeezing it so it fits squeezed, like if you're 11. So just like, we're squeezing the image onto a film gate and then we're unsqueezing it in projection. So you can do this in digital as well, obviously. You unsqueeze it digitally instead of, you know, you're not unsqueezing it in projection. So it just, it has a different feeling.

• 1:57:19Speaker 06

  I'm getting twice the width. So I'm getting more, you know, field of view in, in the width. And it feels scopy, you know? It's why they say, you know, shoot it in scope.

• 1:57:29Sean Fennessey?

  What about the edge of the frame? That's something that I'm always.

• 1:57:31Speaker 06

  Oh, that, well, that's.

• 1:57:32Sean Fennessey?

  That, that kind of effect that you get while watching it. What, what creates that? Why is that interesting to you visually?

• 1:57:38Speaker 06

  Yeah, I mean, I do stuff to my lenses to make, if you're talking about more falloff or aberration.

• 1:57:44Sean Fennessey?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:57:45Speaker 06

  Field curvature to get nerdy. All of these things, like, all work with Panavision. I'm like ninety percent, you know, my whole career I've shot with Panavision glass. And early on in film school, because I liked this anamorphic format. And also, we're talking about aspect ratio, right? So it's like, you know, spherically, you can get a widescreen aspect ratio, but like, I tend to like a movie that has more width than, so you're talking about black bars on top and bottom, right? If you're looking at your TV, that's a one, seven, eight to one ratio. So like, it's gonna fill your TV screen. That ratio was created for television. I don't like that ratio, because it's not a real film ratio.

• 1:58:24Sean Fennessey?

  Yep.

• 1:58:24Speaker 06

  But that's another conversation.

• 1:58:25Sean Fennessey?

  Yep. Why were our TVs not created in the same way as our movie screens?

• 1:58:29Speaker 06

  Well, that's the thing, to get people, yeah, you're staying home for a certain ratio, but also, so sixteen by nine, which is one, seven, eight, so those two ways you can say it. So, yeah, so with anamorphic, I would take out anamorphic lenses from Panavision. They're more expensive at the time, you know, so I couldn't afford renting them, but they would give me different series, so different flavors, like, and what I mean by that is like, some were created in the seventies, some were created in the eighties. So all these different glass have different coatings on them, you know, chemical coatings that they don't really use anymore, which create different refractions of light, different bouquet, different flares, like, color of the flare, like, all this stuff.

• 1:59:10Speaker 06

  And so, I got really used to knowing the different sets and series of lenses at Panavision. And also, just falling in love with glass and knowing what that means. And so, a lot of the stuff on the edges, like, I'll detune the glass so that it has more falloff and brings your eye more to the center, because I center punch most, that's just-

• 1:59:29Sean Fennessey?

  What does that mean?

• 1:59:30Speaker 06

  I always put the character in the center of frame. It's a stronger frame for me. It's how I like to, to frame, but also, like, you have to chase that. So, if I'm framing you- And you're gonna get up from this table and you're gonna walk over there to Jack. And you're gonna do something like that whole, um, if I'm following you and panning with you, I'm gonna keep you always in the center. And then say I'm, say someone comes into the frame and you're now shooting an over. I'm still gonna keep you in the center. So the shoulder and the over is gonna be far left or far right. But I'm always gonna keep you in the center. And it's, it, for me, it's an elegant way of framing, but it's also something that feels right to me.

• 2:00:08Sean Fennessey?

  That's such a definitive choice in the film that like, is that something that you're verbally discussing with Ryan? Because that, I, that, that approach creates real iconography. Like it puts a lot, like for somebody like Michael B. Jordan. It makes him like more of a movie star when you're always center framing someone. You know, that every movement that they make, we are trailing them in the middle. So that's such an artistic choice. And then is that something that you guys are discussing? Is it just understood because you're both, you know, film artists and you understand the technology better than someone who's just watching a movie and enjoying it?

• 2:00:42Speaker 06

  Yeah, I mean, I, I do it, it's, it comes like, it's a personal choice. Like I can't, now I can't get out of it. Like this is like when, if I have a B camera operator, like I'm like, you know, cha, I'm like on the comms yelling at them. Like you have to fix that. But I work with the same people, so they know about my center punching. And then when they go work for someone else, it messes the other person up that doesn't want that.

• 2:01:05Sean Fennessey?

  Right, right.

• 2:01:06Speaker 06

  No, I think on Panther would be our first time doing it. You know, so he, he's familiar with that. You know, it's something that I like to do. And, you know, when you're starting to work with someone for the first time and you're doing tests or, um, but they also, they see your work. You know, so it's, you know, you're being hired for your expertise and your, your taste. So I'm sure Ryan's very smart, so it's like, you know, he knows that's something that I like. But when he doesn't want that, then he'll tell me. I remember there was a frame that we were doing with Imbaku and Shiri in the forest. And he asked me to, um,

• 2:01:42Speaker 06

  Put her, like, they were more weighted on the left side, you know, of the frame because he wanted to fill in Baku's weight, like, imposing on her. It was such a beautiful choice. And I remember when he came up to me, he's like, you know, let's adjust this. And I was like, huh, you know, like my, because I have to, because I have this tic. And it was beautiful. And it was funny, after we shot it, I was like, that was really good. And I went up to him and I was like, that was amazing. And I remember, if you watch that scene back, I should text it to you, that frame. It's very important and it was a really cool choice. So there's those, those, those kind of conversations you'll always have with, like, if you want to adjust it from that, for, you know, a bolder choice, you do it. But yeah, it's, it's, it's how I like to frame, to be honest.

• 2:02:24Sean Fennessey?

  It's really cool, but it is like definitional, you know, it doesn't, it doesn't just become your style, but it becomes the style of the film in a way that maybe it wasn't even the original intent, but only you are bringing that to it. So that's just like incredible detail.

• 2:02:36Speaker 06

  It works well with this, like, two ratio thing as well, too, because.

• 2:02:40Sean Fennessey?

  Can you, yeah, I wanted to ask you about that. So it's IMAX, 65 and Panavision 70.

• 2:02:46Speaker 06

  Well, it's, so it's ultra, the, the phrase, and this is really proprietary toward, to them when they made it in the 50s, Ultra Panavision 70. So the 70 comes from the film projection, right?

• 2:02:57Sean Fennessey?

  That's different from Super.

• 2:02:59Speaker 06

  Well, Super Panavision is a different format. That's a 2.20 to 1, different lensing. So the Ultra Panavision 70 is an anamorphic format, so it's a 1.3 squeeze lens, so that's just the math of the squeeze. And then when you unsqueeze it, it gives you a 2.76 to 1 aspect ratio. And so that is proprietary to Panavision. So that's a system. So it's like, if you shoot, like, Hateful Eight shot Ultra Panavision 70, so if you're going to put on a poster, for instance. Because that's what hap-

• 2:03:29Sean Fennessey?

  And that's so wide, right?

• 2:03:30Speaker 06

  It's very wide, yes.

• 2:03:31Sean Fennessey?

  So, but is, IMAX is tall.

• 2:03:33Speaker 06

  Exactly. So if I'm center punching, you know, when I'm shooting, and it's 65 millimeter, even though it's coined with the 70 projection. So it's 65 millimeter, 5 perf. And then we also shot 65 millimeter, same film stock, 15 perf for IMAX. So it's tall. But if I'm center weighting the character in the frame and the crosshair of the one four three aspect ratio, which is the tall aspect ratio, when I go to do my two seven six extraction, the person is still centered in the frame, right? And you're cropping the top and bottom. So it's very helpful if you do center punch and you're really elegant about chasing that. Is that when you go to do your extraction for all the viewers that view the two seven six, because that's most ninety percent of the theaters.

• 2:04:18Sean Fennessey?

  Typical laser projection.

• 2:04:19Speaker 06

  Exactly. You're not having to do too much adjustment. Like, obviously, we we we did, you know, when you do your QC and your DCP and you have to do pan and scan, you know? If you have to find the frame and make sure that like if I chop the two seven six, that I'm not chopping like Jack's head off, you know?

• 2:04:35Sean Fennessey?

  Is that something that you knew? Does that is that inform the center framing in a way where you're like, if we're going to do this audacious kind of double format approach to it, that we need, there's only kind of one way to shoot the movie? Like, whether there have been other ways to have done it to accomplish that? So you're still getting enough in the frame, no matter how it's being projected?

• 2:04:53Speaker 06

  Um, I mean, I guess it's a bonus that I love to do that, right? And it works out, but like I operate a camera and I have a crazy ground glass, right? So if I'm shooting IMAX, in my ground glass, I have one nine O, which is the digital IMAX projection, which is not your full, right? If you went to CityWalk or if you go to Burbank Town, you know, you're getting the one nine O.

• 2:05:13Sean Fennessey?

  Mm hmm.

• 2:05:15Speaker 06

  And so I had the one four three, the one nine O, the two seven six. I also think I had ticks in there for two three nine, which is irrelevant, but they were there confusing, you know?

• 2:05:26Sean Fennessey?

  This is this is like.

• 2:05:26Speaker 06

  It's a lot.

• 2:05:27Sean Fennessey?

  This is a lot. I mean, it is like a fascinating series of choices that, you know, I've seen the movie in a couple of different formats. I've actually not, I've seen it at home, but not on typical like AMC laser projection. I I've been able to see it, I think, in seventy and in IMAX and.

• 2:05:45Speaker 06

  Did you go to CityWalk?

• 2:05:47Sean Fennessey?

  I saw it at the IMAX headquarters.

• 2:05:49Speaker 06

  Oh, you did?

• 2:05:49Sean Fennessey?

  I did.

• 2:05:50Speaker 06

  Okay, she went to our screenings.

• 2:05:50Sean Fennessey?

  I'm very spoiled and lucky that I could see it there. I know that's where you guys tested it, right?

• 2:05:54Speaker 06

  Exactly, so that was a nice friend.

• 2:05:55Sean Fennessey?

  So, yeah.

• 2:05:56Speaker 06

  Did you sit up top and in the center, not in the front?

• 2:05:59Sean Fennessey?

  I sat center right, which is my preference.

• 2:06:01Speaker 06

  Okay.

• 2:06:03Sean Fennessey?

  Like back center right.

• 2:06:04Speaker 06

  Okay, yeah. Every seat's kind of not bad there.

• 2:06:06Sean Fennessey?

  No, it's like, I always say it's the best movie theater in America, but not a lot of people get to go there, so I don't have to brag too much.

• 2:06:12Speaker 06

  Yeah, exactly.

• 2:06:13Sean Fennessey?

  But yeah, I mean, all of this is, it's simultaneously very confusing and very interesting. And, you know, Ryan has been such an advocate for format and the way that you see something and helping people understand. It's been kind of a signature aspect of promoting the movie and even the awards campaign. And I think it's good to make fans a little bit nerdier about these things. You know, I assume this has been fun for you to also, you know, explain the work that you do in a way that like most EPs never get to.

• 2:06:41Speaker 06

  Yeah, well, I mean, I'm here, right? Like, I feel like it's one of those things where you see now on like Instagram where like they want to know more. Like, they don't just want to know like, oh, you know, the things that, you know, the normal BTS, it's like, people are becoming their own filmmakers now. Like, the tools are tinier, they are being, you know, social and putting people out there making little films with smaller cameras. So even though you're making a big film, they want to know how you made that film. And so it's been fun to talk about. And then Ryan also cares about the audience, so he wants to put that information in their hands so they can go and make choices on projection. Because it does mean, you know, if I want to see the movie and I want to see exactly

• 2:07:24Speaker 06

  what I saw, then I have to go to CityWalk to see it.

• 2:07:27Sean Fennessey?

  Right.

• 2:07:27Speaker 06

  Because I want, or, you know, if you see the IMAX headquarters screening. But otherwise, everyone's seeing a cropped version, which is a different feeling, different film.

• 2:07:34Sean Fennessey?

  Is it painful for you to watch it that way?

• 2:07:36Speaker 06

  No, because I love, like, for instance, the Dolby, Dolby Pass that we did. You know, higher contrast ratio, so like deep blacks, beautiful projection. And I really like that. And the Dolby is only 276, so.

• 2:07:50Sean Fennessey?

  Interesting.

• 2:07:50Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 2:07:51Sean Fennessey?

  What was the most challenging? Sequence, image, moment in the movie to actually capture, to pull off?

• 2:08:00Speaker 06

  Um, I've answered that a lot because I think people think I'm gonna say something else.

• 2:08:07Sean Fennessey?

  Uh huh.

• 2:08:07Speaker 06

  But for me, um, it's really the ending. I think for me that the most challenging stuff is the stuff that has the most VFX, because I'm not, you know, it's, it's something that I can't control in the moment.

• 2:08:21Sean Fennessey?

  I wanted to ask you about that because

• 2:08:23Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 2:08:23Sean Fennessey?

  I know Conde Forever also had it, but the, the movie almost like, I don't, I'm sure you didn't shoot linearly, but the, the, the final 10 minutes is very different visually, daytime VFX shots in the frame. Like, so like, what's hard about that? Why is that so tough?

• 2:08:36Speaker 06

  Well, actually, not, not the daytime stuff, the, the fight in the river.

• 2:08:42Sean Fennessey?

  Hmm.

• 2:08:42Speaker 06

  When he is in flames.

• 2:08:43Sean Fennessey?

  Right.

• 2:08:44Speaker 06

  So obviously, but, but funny enough, nor not funny enough, but like, we did shoot, um, you know, SFX had a guy in a, in stunts, had a guy in fire suit. So someone was on fire in that pool of water. And we did shoot it as a reference, right? Because then they have to manipulate it and we did a pass with Jack and then we did a pass with stunts and then we put everything together and that's what becomes the VFX shot. Um, so I think for me, I always want that stuff to look as real as possible. Now, like,

• 2:09:15Speaker 06

  no one's gonna shoot a guy burning alive, obviously, but that would be, that would be the way to get the best looking thing is doing every, everything for real.

• 2:09:22Sean Fennessey?

  They used to do pretty close.

• 2:09:23Speaker 06

  Oh, really? Yeah. So it's like, I'll kind of burn myself for this. Um, but no, it's like, so I just wanna make sure that the audience is always in it and is not, nothing is broken, right? So that is where I put the most pressure on myself to make sure that I work with our VFX supervisor, Michael Rolland. We're close. We, we met on Panther. He did our second unit. Um, he was our second unit supervisor. So we have a very close working relationship and it's always rooted in as much as in camera as possible, as much as in camera reference to give him as possible. Um, so that ultimately the image looks as real as possible and I don't feel the hand of this like VFX, you know, hand. Um, so that scene, it's also a night shoot, which is very difficult. We had the um, structure of like when the sun rises, we have to rap.

• 2:10:07Speaker 06

  So we're always chasing that right in time. And you know, when you do stunts and something really complex like that, wires and all that stuff that we had to do, um, it takes a lot of time and um, can be very tedious. So that was the hardest scene for me, I think, and mostly just because there was a lot of elements that needed, um, and then the sunrise, you know?

• 2:10:29Sean Fennessey?

  I just, I just asked Paul Thomas Anderson this and I'm wonder, wondering how you would answer it. There are a few moments in the movie that I would describe as ecstatic. Certainly though, I lied to you, moment that you described earlier, the sort of traveling through the musical history um, at the Juke Joint. The Rocky Road to Dublin sequence, I think, is also similarly like, kind of fills you up. How do you know when you're on set that you're kind of getting it? You know, that you're getting the idea that Ryan has, the vision that you have for it, the collaboration, all the, the departments are feeling excited about what they have, the actors feel good, and you're like, we got it right on this take, on this day, like, how, how do you know?

• 2:11:11Speaker 06

  Um, you just know.

• 2:11:14Sean Fennessey?

  What does that mean?

• 2:11:16Speaker 06

  Um, I think, well, there's layers to that, right? So it's like, if you put yourself in a community of filmmakers where you guys have the same taste and you're after the same vision, um, that helps, right? Because I know Ryan really well and I know what he likes and I know what he doesn't like. And I know that it's all rooted in the emotion of something. And um, as an operator, like, I know when that's coming, like, getting, you know, when the, when it's getting across to the audience. Like, I know in my heart, I know in my eye, like, I know when I see it. I'm in the church, I'm operating the crane, um, I'm seeing um, Saul give that performance with, with Miles, and I know, like, I can see it because I'm looking at it through an eyepiece or on a monitor. Um, and you feel it.

• 2:12:00Speaker 06

  And it's as simple as that, like, when you're working with this caliber of actors, um, and you know, how Ryan works with them on set, like, you can feel it, you feel it in the space and you know when, you know the take that's right. Like, ultimately, like, in editorial, um, because that process is, you know, after, you know, I, I shoot it, um, I'm always excited to see him and Michael Schaub's pass of something because it's always beautiful and, you know, I feel the weight of it is much more than me doing like, multiple takes and knowing which take is great.

• 2:12:27Sean Fennessey?

  Are you ever surprised by what they choose?

• 2:12:30Speaker 06

  Um, I was, I don't know, and this film was so elegant. I, you know, I was just, I loved every take and I loved every scene. I think most of the movie got used. I think there's probably a couple of things that are on the DVD thing.

• 2:12:43Speaker 06

  But no, it was, it was, it was just beautiful. Like, this was a great film and you, you knew it on set that it was great. You knew it was special. You didn't know what was gonna happen ultimately, like what has happened. But yeah, you know, like, the rocky road to Dublin, like, people are bringing their A-game, you know? And Ryan's very excited, you know, he's running around, again, with the sun, like, we had to rush because the sun was coming up, so, but we got it, you know, there were things that Ryan wanted, like, you know, obviously, we tipped down to his feet, so he'll, you know, he's watching, he's right there next to the, to the lens with the operator. So if it's on Steadicam, like, I'm watching on a monitor and talking to my operator. But yeah, I mean, it's, it's a feeling.

• 2:13:24Sean Fennessey?

  One thing I was curious to hear you speak about, talked to, to our friend Van about this before, we were just talking about the way that this studio looks and is lit. But like, different faces need to be lit differently. And it has to be like a real sensitivity to the way that different actors with different coloring have to be shot. So, how do you know to have the right sensitivity to that? And how do you balance what the actor wants with what the filmmaker wants, with what you want? And what is the right middle ground there? Because obviously, especially well-known actors, you know, they have a lot of sensitivities to these things.

• 2:13:57Speaker 06

  Yeah, I mean, every film's different. So if I'm doing like, um, likes, like, for example, like, with Pamela, I'll just start there and then I'll go into.

• 2:14:08Sean Fennessey?

  Pamela Anderson, yeah.

• 2:14:09Speaker 06

  Right? Like, that was a movie that we were making, she wasn't wearing makeup. Like, she trusted GNI, um, you know, there was some makeup, like, Jamie had a look, a vibe. But like, Jamie Lee Curtis, but like, and then, you know, um, Dave Batista, he had a wig, you know, obviously. And so there, there were certain looks, but like, there was a trust there with Pamela that she just wanted to be herself and raw. So like, that's lovely. Then there's the other side of that where it's like, and I'm not sure I've, you know, I've, I've mostly maybe done it more on commercial work. If you have someone that wants to be lit a specific way, and then you're gonna have, you know, a talk about it as a DP.

• 2:14:48Speaker 06

  That's difficult, right? Like, and say it's someone who's older that wants to be filled in and lit, you know, a completely different way that is different than the world you're creating on set. And that's hard, right? Because it's like, I'm always gonna think about the story and the world I'm creating on set and then try and make that person look good within that same framework. But if I have to light someone completely separate from everybody else, it's not gonna fill of the same world. And you've seen those movies, right? Where you're just like, oh, now we're in that zone.

• 2:15:17Sean Fennessey?

  There's Vaseline on this lens. Yeah, why?

• 2:15:19Speaker 06

  Or just, yeah, it's like, this person is high-key lit, but then the guy isn't. And it's like, well, what are they, what pool of light is this person?

• 2:15:25Sean Fennessey?

  You can always tell.

• 2:15:26Speaker 06

  Yes. So, not my favorite. And then there's this movie where it's like, you know, Ryan is very trusting, you know, he knows how much I love lighting and how much I like it to be a character. But also, like, top light, I really like top light. And if I'm doing night exterior, like, I wanna use a top-lit source that recreates the moon. Especially if you're in the middle of nowhere in the 1930s, that's what's gonna be lighting these people. But then you get, you know, you're gonna get a darker eye, and everyone has to be okay with that. There's a lot of hats in the film, everyone has to be okay with that. But I am shooting a horror vampire movie. So if I'm getting a call from someone saying like, oh, people's eyes are looking too dark, it's like, I am shooting a vampire horror movie.

• 2:16:08Speaker 06

  And Ryan and I are on the, you know, we're on the same page as far as like, what that means for the film. And that, you know, having people fall in and out of shadow is a beautiful thing, and trusting that, and trusting that, like, you know, I like to light black people in a certain way that it makes them look beautiful. And I don't feel like to make somebody that's darker skin look beautiful, I have to, like, shed a lot of light on them and, like, overlight them because someone's afraid that they're gonna go into darkness. Because there's reflective qualities of, you know, darker skin that are also beautiful. So there's all these things that come up, for sure. But you have to just be brave about it and say, like, this is the vision. And the people around you that are gonna be like, you know, wary of that, you have

• 2:16:53Speaker 06

  to just say, I got this. Like, this is the right call.

• 2:16:57Sean Fennessey?

  That makes a lot of sense. Hearing you describe it as a vampire horror movie, was there, was there a movie, maybe just for you or maybe between you and Ryan that you discussed that was like the most useful reference for How It Should Look?

• 2:17:09Speaker 06

  The Thing. Yeah, well, I think it's, for How It Should Look, he gave me, like, I mean, we work in a, it's like, I don't feel like him and I are always like, this is how the movie should look, like, example A, you know? Because we work more from here, right? It, it finds itself a little bit differently because I'm so much a person that loves to work with the designer and the costume designer, like Ruth and Hannah. We're all such a collaborative team that we're building a space that feels real and is referenced from the 30s. Now, it's more stylized, right? And then you have, you take liberties there, but The Thing is like one of his favorite films. He brought it up. I love that film, also anamorphic.

• 2:17:51Speaker 06

  The tension it creates, it's moody, it's textured. So all of those, I draw from all of that, right? It's not that we're ma, that's like the reference. But it's a reference for lots of different things. And then the photographs that he gave me were black and white photographs from Yodora Welty. That was my biggest draw. But it wasn't for lighting, like, I feel like I create, I feel like I have to create that with the designer a little bit because, you know, we're making it out of nothing. You know, she built every set.

• 2:18:20Sean Fennessey?

  So are those photographs, like, out of creating a sense of reality or authenticity? Or like, what is it that is it communicating?

• 2:18:28Speaker 06

  I mean, it's a feeling, right? There's so much humanity in those photographs that he sent me after I got the book. You know, it's like this one moment in time that feels so special and it's real, right? So you're looking at something that, you know, this woman was walking around. She was a short story writer in 1930s and it was all there for her. Like, it was happening before her eyes and, you know, it's like, I, I always thrive off of looking at photography references because they're real people in real spaces. And that's what I'm doing. I'm, we're playing make believe, like, let's, you know, just be real here. It's like storytelling, but like, it's all make believe. And I need to make it so real that you believe that it's true. Like, you believe Michael's two people, you believe he's a vampire, you believe cornbread's

• 2:19:10Speaker 06

  out there, you know, like, these are, have to feel like real people. And so if everyone's doing their job at a really high level. It does feel like that photograph. And so that's what I'm after. I'm trying to make it like as good as that photograph that Ryan was like, because that's what he liked about the photographs.

• 2:19:27Sean Fennessey?

  Yeah.

• 2:19:27Speaker 06

  It was a world that, you know, felt really like his uncle's world, you know, when he was listening to the blues music on the porch.

• 2:19:34Sean Fennessey?

  Just hearing you say the thing immediately reminded me of the scene where Cornbread's at the juke joint door. And I was like, that's almost the thing scene in the movie. You know, where you're just like, what is, what is the truth of what is happening inside of this person?

• 2:19:44Speaker 06

  That was scary when we shot that, dude. It was scary.

• 2:19:47Sean Fennessey?

  It's really, I mean.

• 2:19:48Speaker 06

  Because you know, I'm operating, right? And he's just like about to. And we shot at high speed, so the camera's very loud, sixty frames.

• 2:19:55Sean Fennessey?

  I wanted to ask you, in general, is the IMAX camera like just different load, harder, harder on actors?

• 2:20:01Speaker 06

  Um, yeah, I mean, it's, it's a whole different ball of wax, right? So it's one of those things where like everyone's just on board because you're not going to get a more beautiful image from anything, in my opinion, now that I've shot it. So, and I thought that when I saw The Dark Knight, you know, in the, the bank sequence. I was like, is there anything better than this fucking scene?

• 2:20:22Sean Fennessey?

  Yes.

• 2:20:23Speaker 06

  There is not.

• 2:20:23Sean Fennessey?

  Yeah, I know, I know what you mean.

• 2:20:25Speaker 06

  So when you get that camera in your hands, you're ultimately very aware of like what it can do. And so you want to like, you know, really utilize it. And it's louder, but doesn't matter because you want to utilize it. So you kind of create a world where everyone, you know, well, you have to have the, the best technicians, right? Because like the focus pulling on that is insane. And the loud aspect of it, it's like Ryan turned scenes that were supposed to be anamorphic into IMAX. So then he has to have a talk with the actors to make sure they're okay with it. Because it's like a lawnmower. So say you're there and I'm two to three feet from your face and you have to pretend like you're not shouting over a camera.

• 2:21:05Sean Fennessey?

  Yeah, yeah. I, I talked to Adrian Birdie and Brady Corby about that with the Vista Vision camera on Brutalist Two, where it's like Lol obviously had to operate that with all of those closeups and the intimacy. It just seems like. It is the way that things used to work and then we stopped doing it. And actors have gotten more comfortable with digital over the years, too. Where like the performance styles, I feel like have to change pretty dramatically to be able to work in that way. I'm always curious to hear how actors feel about that, too.

• 2:21:30Speaker 06

  Well, it's also like they're doing a great job, right?

• 2:21:32Sean Fennessey?

  Yeah, no, it's working in this movie for sure.

• 2:21:34Speaker 06

  And then, I mean, they do ADR after, but there's still a guide track there. And there's still a feeling that you need to capture in order to remember that later, right? Because, you know, like on that resolution, on a hundred foot screen in Lincoln Center, like you see everything. So if someone's not doing a great job and you feel like there's a loud camera in the space, like audiences are going to see that.

• 2:21:55Sean Fennessey?

  Yeah.

• 2:21:55Speaker 06

  But they did a beautiful job. And yeah, it's a slower pace. There's a respect that needs to happen on set for that type of pacing and camera system. It's kind of goes back to what we were talking about, like we're making a movie, you know? You know, the Ben Hur of it all and the Lawrence of Arabia, like the David Lean. I just had to do a thing where I documentary interview about a David Lean. And it was, it's such a beautiful thing to be able to discuss like how he made films and him in general. Because like I would love to make films like that all the time. The budgets, you know, everything's become like less budget, less time. But if you're given, you know, the accurate resources to tell a scopy movie

• 2:22:37Speaker 06

  and you can actually like travel to those places with heavy cameras and wait for the sun. Wouldn't that be amazing?

• 2:22:42Sean Fennessey?

  This is the lesson of this award season, though. I'm like, just empower these people to make these movies, which are expensive. But they will pay out if you, and people want them, like they want the large format story. They want the epic experience. Like it is very much, I think where in general movie going is going. Like people want to have that experience where they're kind of overwhelmed by something. The same way a lean film will. I've kept you for a long time.

• 2:23:07Speaker 06

  I mean, it's like you just could talk for ages. Now I know.

• 2:23:11Sean Fennessey?

  It's nice to hear that. We end every episode of this show by asking filmmakers, what's the last great thing they have seen?

• 2:23:17Speaker 06

  Oh, yeah, I do remember you said that.

• 2:23:20Sean Fennessey?

  You know what yours is? Could be old or new.

• 2:23:23Speaker 06

  Okay.

• 2:23:25Speaker 06

  What did I see? Well, I'm not saying TV.

• 2:23:28Sean Fennessey?

  Please don't say TV.

• 2:23:31Speaker 06

  It's not the last thing I actually watched. Okay.

• 2:23:33Sean Fennessey?

  Some TV shows can be cinematic.

• 2:23:35Speaker 06

  True. Well, I mean, I mean, to be honest, Lawrence of Arabia.

• 2:23:41Sean Fennessey?

  So what?

• 2:23:42Speaker 06

  Because I was rewatching it because I was, I went to go do the interview.

• 2:23:46Sean Fennessey?

  What was the documentary you were sitting for?

• 2:23:49Speaker 06

  Well, about David Lean, a documentary about David Lean.

• 2:23:51Sean Fennessey?

  Interesting. Who's making it? Are you allowed to say?

• 2:23:53Speaker 06

  Well, I shouldn't because I'm.

• 2:23:54Sean Fennessey?

  Okay.

• 2:23:55Speaker 06

  Yeah. It's not, it was just they're making it now.

• 2:23:57Sean Fennessey?

  Well, did you go back and look at a bunch?

• 2:23:59Speaker 06

  But I'll send it to you.

• 2:24:00Sean Fennessey?

  Please do. Did you look at a bunch of his films? Because he's another one too, who kind of like started more modestly.

• 2:24:04Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 2:24:05Sean Fennessey?

  In his early films and then kind of is building up to this period in the 50s and 60s when he has these huge canvases.

• 2:24:10Speaker 06

  I mean, I did a little like, you know, snippets of Zhivago and like, you know, dipped my toe in a couple of things to, to refresh. Great Expectations, stuff like that.

• 2:24:20Sean Fennessey?

  Mm hmm.

• 2:24:21Speaker 06

  But I think that was the last, because I've been a little busy doing stuff. So I felt like I took some time to revisit that film, otherwise like, you know, sometimes TV, I'm watching planes and stuff. But, um, we don't have to talk about that. But, um, but yeah, so I revisited that and I was just like, wow, you know, it's so, it does it every time to me. And I'm watching it on my TV, obviously.

• 2:24:46Speaker 06

  But like the scene, for instance, where O'Toole goes, like they go to the well and he has, you know, his, his partner with him. And then you see that one lone black figure come up in the middle, center punched in frame. And they're both flanking the edges of the anamorphic frame. Or no, actually that is not anamorphic. No, no, it's not. Actually, I think that's super vanivision. And they're there and it's like, it's just, he comes up and then obviously he shoots him. But like that frame, and I was like, this is, this is the frame that I have in my head all the time. Like this is the format, this widescreen, scopy format with the center punch guy and the beautiful frame. Yeah.

• 2:25:22Sean Fennessey?

  It's great full circle. Autumn, thanks for doing the show.

• 2:25:24Speaker 06

  Yes, thank you so much. Yes.

• 2:25:31Sean Fennessey?

  Okay, thanks Autumn. Thanks to our producer Jack Sanders for his work on this episode later this week. Scream 7, and after much demand Nirvana the Band the Movie, which you have now seen.

• 2:25:42Amanda Dobbins?

  I have seen. And I think I'm elbowing my way into this episode.

• 2:25:45Sean Fennessey?

  Yes, well, you're more than invited now that you've seen the film.

• 2:25:48Amanda Dobbins?

  And I can't wait to hear the Matt Johnson conversation.

• 2:25:52Sean Fennessey?

  He is an elite guest, and it is an elite conversation. We will see you then.

• 2:26:15Speaker 05

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