#2574 - Francis Foster & Konstantin Kisin

Comedian Francis Foster and political commentator Konstantin Kisin host the "TRIGGERnometry" podcast. Francis also hosts "The Francis Foster Show" and is the author of "(Un)educated: My Life as a Teacher, and Why You Should Never Become One." Konstantin is the author of "An Immigrant's Love Letter to the West."www.youtube.com/@triggerpodwww.youtube.com/@Francisfosterpodwww.youtube.com/@KonstantinKisinPodwww.triggerpod.co.ukwww.francisfoster.co.ukwww.konstantinkisin.com Perplexity: Download the app or ask Perplexity anything at https://pplx.ai/rogan. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:12Joe Rogan?

  Always good to see you guys. Um, I haven't talked to anybody about this, so I'd like to talk to you guys about it. Do you know what the fuck is going on in Brazil?

• 0:20Speaker 01

  No, not, not intimately.

• 0:22Joe Rogan?

  Not specifically?

• 0:23Speaker 01

  Not specifically, but the Flavio Bolsonaro, who is the son of the guy Jair Bolsonaro.

• 0:30Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 0:32Speaker 01

  He was one of the candidates in the election and then the moment the election finished, they took his passport away and I think he's ended up fleeing to the US now. Is that right?

• 0:42Joe Rogan?

  I don't know. I've heard that he fled, but I don't know if there's any evidence.

• 0:48Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 0:48Joe Rogan?

  I mean, that's just like Twitter talk.

• 0:50Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 0:51Joe Rogan?

  But that's, but first of all, just taking his passport right away is kind of crazy.

• 0:56Speaker 01

  And I think they did warn him as well. They said, uh, the Lula said, if I'm elected, you know, it was kind of like, uh, you're going to be in jail when Trump said it to Hillary, but they followed through.

• 1:06Joe Rogan?

  But what was the, what are the charges? Like, what are they?

• 1:09Speaker 01

  I don't know the details of it, Joe.

• 1:11Joe Rogan?

  But the whole thing was, so it was someone that was his, Lula's former defense attorney. He elected to the Supreme Court of Brazil and then that person opened up the polls for an additional two hours and that allowed Lula to win. Is that accurate?

• 1:29Speaker 01

  I think so. Yeah, that bit I think is, that's what I saw, but this is the thing is like, you have to really do a lot of research now to even know the basic facts of anything. So if you just see something on X or Facebook or whatever, I, I am hesitant to believe it now off the top. Do you know what I mean?

• 1:45Joe Rogan?

  A hundred percent. I, I read stories all day that I know are fake immediately. And it's like breaking and then you read the thing in all caps and you're like, oh, this is a fake story.

• 1:56Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:56Joe Rogan?

  And there's a lot of them. They're all, they're all over the place.

• 1:59Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:59Joe Rogan?

  And I think they've done something where you don't get monetized for those. So you can't make money off of them. So there's less of an incentive, but if the goal is just propaganda, then they don't care about the money. Like if these are, if this is a country or a government that's involved in doing this, or someone, you know, with a vested interest in fucking up American politics or Brazilian politics or whatever, you just, who cares if we're making money? What we want to do is fuck up the waters. We want to muddy up the water. So nobody knows what the fuck is real. Um, if there's, you know, people that are voting, we want them to be completely confused

• 2:40Joe Rogan?

  or lied to, where they have a totally incorrect narrative of what's going on. And you see so much of it. And you know, like, I feel like

• 2:50Joe Rogan?

  maybe when there's a fact check, like, like a Grok fact check and it proves to be absolutely incorrect, maybe they should like just take it down so that you don't have to go into the thread. Cause I'll go into the thread, I'll read something like, that's fake. And I'll go into the thread. I'm like, where, where does someone ask Grok? And someone asks Grok and it says, no, this is not correct. And then Grok lays it out. Maybe then they should take it down.

• 3:16Speaker 01

  Right.

• 3:17Joe Rogan?

  Because you just, there's, it's just your timelines, just flooded by straight horse shit. Completely made up stories about, you know, people being arrested and you'll have AI photos of someone handcuffed. It's crazy. It's really crazy.

• 3:30Speaker 01

  And then amplified by bots or foreign, foreign actors as well. I mean, that's, that's one of the interesting areas where I think there's probably a solution, which is kind of like digital border enforcement, where you actually know that people are commenting on this and where they're commenting from.

• 3:48Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 3:48Speaker 01

  Because I think most people get their political opinions from other people. They don't necessarily have a, they, they don't sit down for three hours and think about this stuff. They just go, this seems to be what everyone thinks.

• 4:00Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 4:00Speaker 01

  And that's where this kind of manipulation is so powerful because you're creating the idea that a narrative is popular.

• 4:06Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 4:07Speaker 01

  And a lot of people then go, well, maybe that's what I should believe.

• 4:10Joe Rogan?

  Especially with the bots.

• 4:11Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 4:11Joe Rogan?

  You'll have a story that's clearly either biased or full of shit totally. And then you'll have a bunch of bots agreeing with it and, you know, saying what should be done to these people. And this is, this is an outrage. And then you find out it's completely fabricated. And you're like, well, what are they doing? Like, what's happening here? Like, why are there so many of these, you know, Bob six, seven, four, three, two, people that are commenting on this? And what are they trying to prove? Or what are they trying to push?

• 4:37Speaker 02

  And it's not just that. It's also you get certain influences and you see them come up on your timeline time and time and time again with these takes that are just straight out ridiculous. But they, and then you look underneath and you look at the amount of retweets, you look at the engagement, you go, you think to yourself, that, that, that just can't be real. Cause that is such a ridiculous take that they've just given you. But the engagement is unreal. And then you see it time and time again from the same influences.

• 5:07Joe Rogan?

  Yeah. Well, I think just becoming outrageous is profitable, right?

• 5:11Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 5:12Joe Rogan?

  That's the problem.

• 5:13Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 5:14Joe Rogan?

  So like, you could just have a take, like, so let's take out fake stories. So you could just have a contrarian take that's preposterous and just gets you angry the moment you read it. And then you see, ah, fuck you. And then, but that's, that's engagement. And that's what these people want. And some people on Twitter are, they just didn't get, exist for engagement. They're not good faith actors. They're just weird people that, you know, are probably on all sorts of weird drugs. And there's somewhere just fucking tweet up a storm.

• 5:45Speaker 02

  Yeah. And it's also as well, because, uh, now you can monetize your X.

• 5:49Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 5:49Speaker 02

  That means that that's incentivized people to create posts that are going to get more engagement.

• 5:54Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 5:54Speaker 02

  And what's the, what's one really easy way of guaranteeing engagement is negative engagement. If you piss people off, if you say something that's outrageous, that's far easier to then get people engaging with you than to do something funny or to.

• 6:08Speaker 01

  All right. Take it easy. That's been our business model for eight and a half years. You're fucking ruining it.

• 6:16Speaker 01

  But actually, I mean, we're joking, obviously. I'm actually really happy. We, uh, this, in the last few episodes that we've put out in trigonometry, you've got, um, we've got David Pakman, who's a left wing guy. Dave Smith, who's like a libertarian guy, and we've got Steven Crowder coming out, uh, soon. So we'd like, we actually got to the point where we always wanted to be where we're talking to everybody. It's what I always really enjoyed about you and the way you do it. You've always been able, I actually kind of marveled at how you were able to do it because when we started, we had a very hard time getting more of the left leaning guests on.

• 6:46Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 6:47Speaker 01

  You never seem to have that problem. You just get everybody on and they're happy to come on and talk. Um, and I, that's what actually you need more of in the world. I think the outrage stuff you're talking about, it really pushes people apart. We were really interested in how do you bring people together to have one conversation based on an agreed set of facts?

• 7:04Joe Rogan?

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• 8:49Joe Rogan?

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• 9:31Joe Rogan?

  The Apple Sports App gives you all the important game details for your favorite sports teams, fast and simple. Download Apple Sports for free on the App Store or find it on your new iPhone. I think as long as you're getting people that are honest, that are good faith conversationalists. You know, and I think that's, that is an issue. And that's what I don't want to do anymore. I don't want to have on these people that I think are full of shit, that are propagandists, that are, that are loyal to a party to the point where they just distort facts or obfuscate or talk over you when you're trying to make points. Like the Pierce Morgan model, where you see like someone will be saying something

• 10:13Joe Rogan?

  and the other person just chime in and just talk over them to try to disrupt their pattern of thinking. It's very annoying and stupid and I'm not interested in that at all.

• 10:23Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 10:24Joe Rogan?

  And I'm not interested in talking to people that I think are just outright liars. Unless like I have some fucking obligation to expose them, but I don't, I don't want to. I don't, I don't want that to be a thing that I want to do all the time. Where it's just bring on people that, I know you're full of shit and like, I've got the facts. Like, I like to talk to people that I'm interested in talking to. And that's my business model. I mean, it's not a business model. It's just like, it's what I started doing and this one I can want to keep doing. And if that, you know, like, I was very interested in talking to Bernie again. You know, I don't agree with him on a lot of things, but I don't think he's a bad person. You know, and I think he, you know, he's an older guy with some ideals that just didn't pan out.

• 11:06Joe Rogan?

  And I think he still believes that there's like a way to do this. It's different and better for the people and for the working people. But I think after a while, you say these words like, you know what it's like when you have an act and you've been doing a bit for a long time and then the bit stops losing meaning. You just say it the way you've always said it, but it doesn't have any meaning to you anymore. And the bit starts to get stale and it starts to die off. And if you're smart, you pull it out of the act, you put it on the shelf and you go, I gotta rework that thing or something. It's like, I don't, I'm not attached to it anymore. It doesn't feel real. I'm just saying it to go through the motions. That's how I feel like when he starts talking about climate change and stuff like that. And I go, okay, what are we talking about? How much have you looked into it?

• 11:51Joe Rogan?

  Cause if you really look into climate change, it's very fucking confusing. Like, it's not as simple as, like, there was just an article today that someone sent me that they think that global warming may have stopped an imminent ice age. That was coming, which is one of the things that they were talking about like during the 1970s. That was a big thing. It was a big narrative about climate change. That was the big fear was that a new ice age was coming. In fact, an episode of that Leonard Nimoy show, did you ever watch that in search of? Great fucking show. It was great because it was a mix of like horse shit, doom and gloom, Bigfoot, UFOs, all kinds of stuff. But it was Leonard Nimoy, you know, Spock from Star Trek. And he had a whole article about imminent ice age.

• 12:36Joe Rogan?

  And that, like, that's the thing that we really should be afraid of. It's a fucking terrifying proposition that the world freezes over again. Cause if it gets hot, you just move to the places that it used to be cold.

• 12:47Speaker 01

  And get air conditioning, right?

• 12:48Joe Rogan?

  Get air conditioning.

• 12:49Speaker 02

  We don't have air conditioning, Joe.

• 12:51Joe Rogan?

  In England?

• 12:51Speaker 02

  No, no, no.

• 12:52Joe Rogan?

  Well, that's why you guys die every year.

• 12:54Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 12:55Joe Rogan?

  Like more people die in England from, I think this is a fact. I think more people die in, not in England, but in Europe, in all of Europe, from heat stroke during summer than gun violence in the United States. I might've made that up.

• 13:11Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 13:14Speaker 01

  Actually, there is a serious point.

• 13:17Joe Rogan?

  I think it's a high number though.

• 13:20Speaker 02

  I was just gonna say, I was just gonna say like, that just sounds real. That sounds real after the summer we've had.

• 13:27Speaker 01

  It must be true.

• 13:27Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 13:28Speaker 01

  It sounds real.

• 13:29Joe Rogan?

  I don't understand why people haven't adopted air conditioning. Is it a money thing?

• 13:35Speaker 01

  Well, it's the same green nonsense that you're talking about.

• 13:39Joe Rogan?

  Oh no.

• 13:39Speaker 01

  Because air conditioning consumes a lot of energy and it therefore causes more climate change, quote unquote. Actually, more people die in, in England from cold in winter than they die from heat.

• 13:53Joe Rogan?

  Here we go. Europe had an, okay, yes, if you mean deaths attributed to heat rather than specifically heat stroke. European heat death estimates can exceed the total number of US firearm deaths. But the comparison needs a few qualifications. Same year comparison, Europe had an estimated 61,672 heat related deaths during the summer. That's fucking crazy. United States recorded more than 48,000 firearm deaths over the entire year, according to the CDC. That includes suicides, homicides and other firearm deaths, not just murders, including also cops shooting bad guys.

• 14:33Joe Rogan?

  So in that year, yes, even Europe's summer heat death estimate exceeded America's full firearm death count. Well, heat stroke, we don't have to say heat stroke. That was a maybe a bad terminology, but just from heat. What about from cold? How many, look, look up, how many Europeans die from cold every year?

• 14:53Joe Rogan?

  What do you guess? Think it's more?

• 14:56Speaker 01

  I don't know about Europeans. In Britain, I know more people die from cold than heat, in Britain specifically.

• 15:01Joe Rogan?

  Wow, that's crazy.

• 15:04Speaker 01

  I imagine in Italy, less so.

• 15:07Joe Rogan?

  That's crazy.

• 15:08Speaker 01

  Like in the, in the south.

• 15:10Joe Rogan?

  It's confused because you spelled year wrong, Jamie.

• 15:13Speaker 01

  There you go, Joe.

• 15:14Joe Rogan?

  364,000 people a year die from cold.

• 15:20Speaker 01

  Right.

• 15:20Joe Rogan?

  Across 30 European countries, according to a 2024 study. Wow, that is an estimated annual average based on 1991 to 2020, not a count for the latest year. That is really crazy though.

• 15:36Speaker 01

  Well, this is what people don't understand about the, the climate change agenda is it's, it's pushed electricity prices up and so, and gas prices. And so, energy is much more expensive. So you literally have pensioners freezing to death in winter because they can't afford to heat their home properly because we're saving the planet. Anyway, your point, I think is we need the second amendment and air conditioning in the UK.

• 15:58Joe Rogan?

  That would help a lot.

• 15:59Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 15:59Joe Rogan?

  That would help you guys a lot. A lot of things would change.

• 16:02Speaker 02

  Yeah. Yeah. I mean, the fact that we don't, the majority of places don't have air con. Like if you're, if you're dating Joe and you want to bring a lady back to your flat, all you need to say is you've got air con.

• 16:14Joe Rogan?

  So it is available to some.

• 16:17Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 16:17Joe Rogan?

  So like imagine if you move into a place and it doesn't have air conditioning. How much hoops and ladders do you have to go through to get air conditioning into your, into your place?

• 16:26Speaker 01

  Well, so now I'm having air conditioning installed in my house right now.

• 16:29Joe Rogan?

  You don't have it right now?

• 16:30Speaker 01

  I just bought a house that doesn't have it.

• 16:34Speaker 01

  But it, you know, the, the climate is not like here in Austin. Like it is survivable.

• 16:39Joe Rogan?

  It's just hot.

• 16:40Speaker 01

  It's hot, right?

• 16:41Joe Rogan?

  Right. Like what is a, what is a hot Fahrenheit day in England?

• 16:44Speaker 01

  I don't know what, I don't know Fahrenheit.

• 16:46Joe Rogan?

  Give me Celsius.

• 16:47Speaker 01

  30, we've had like 37, 38, maybe up to 40 this year.

• 16:51Joe Rogan?

  Okay. So that's like in the nineties.

• 16:53Speaker 01

  That's high. Yeah, it's high.

• 16:55Joe Rogan?

  What is that, Jamie? What is, let's, uh, let's, let's say 40. What is 40 Fahrenheit or 40 Celsius rather?

• 17:01Speaker 01

  40 is probably about a hundred degrees because 40 is when you're having, if you have, if your body temperature is 40, you've got a very bad fever.

• 17:09Joe Rogan?

  104, okay. So you guys have 104 days.

• 17:13Speaker 01

  Like one or two over the course of a year.

• 17:15Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 17:15Speaker 01

  But you've got to remember though, Joe, is like the infrastructure and the houses and the trains and all the public transport, they're not built for that kind of climate.

• 17:23Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 17:23Speaker 01

  So if you go to on holiday in Italy and it's 40, that's one thing. If it's 40 in the UK, in the houses that are built to keep the heat in during winter, it's a different conversation, you know?

• 17:36Joe Rogan?

  So the average daytime high in July and August is 70 degrees.

• 17:43Speaker 01

  But we have had very hot days the last couple of summers, very hot.

• 17:46Joe Rogan?

  And that's when people start freaking out about climate change. But that's just so narrow minded. And it's not that we shouldn't be concerned if the earth gets warmer. That's all I'm saying, but I'm saying it's never been static. So this idea that, oh my god, this is, we're doing this, like, are we? Do you know? Do you know about the entire history of the world's temperature? Because it varies insanely. Not only that, there's been many times in earth's history where there was way more carbon in the air and it was way cooler. Doesn't make any sense. And if you don't understand differential equations, if you don't understand like the way the wind blows and solar activity and all these different variables that come into

• 18:28Joe Rogan?

  play, along with greenhouse gases, along with carbon. There's so many different variables that come into play like this. These narratives are so unscientific for the people that want to say, trust the science. Well, the science on climate change is fucking incredibly complex. Or just climate, period. Forget about the word climate change.

• 18:49Speaker 01

  And it's so interesting you use the word unscientific because I often think about this. Most of my family are scientists, physicists, biochemical engineers. The thing with, like, when a normal person hears the word science, what they think is, if I pick up this phone and drop it, it's gonna fall at a predictable speed because we understand the rules of gravity, we can calculate it, we can calculate the speed, the acceleration, all that stuff. Climate science is modeling, modeling.

• 19:16Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 19:16Speaker 01

  That's not, I'm not saying it's not science exactly, but that's not what we think about as normal, just ordinary people, when we think about science. We think about something that's 100% predictable, measurable, calculable. You can go, if we change this, then this is gonna happen. Climate modeling, it's not like that. It's an approximation and an estimate based on a lot of assumptions. And we don't know how accurate those assumptions are. But even if you accept all that, what's interesting in Britain is, do you know what percentage of global carbon emissions Britain produces?

• 19:49Joe Rogan?

  Oh god, it's gotta be minuscule.

• 19:51Speaker 01

  1%.

• 19:52Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 19:53Speaker 01

  So if we reduced it to zero, we'd not have any impact on the climate at all while just destroying our economy, killing people. And that's what we've done. We have the highest industrial electricity prices in the world. That's why you can't, you can't build anything in the UK, you can't run a business, an industrial business. You can't make anything. You know, it's funny, you guys are having this big battle over data centers here.

• 20:16Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 20:17Speaker 01

  We don't have that because we're not fucking building any.

• 20:21Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 20:22Joe Rogan?

  The other super inconvenient thing when it comes to carbon is that there's more vegetation, more leaf coverage in the world now than there has been in a long fucking time.

• 20:34Speaker 01

  Global greening.

• 20:34Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, it's because of carbon, because plants actually consume carbon dioxide. It's like, like, what are we doing? Like, what are we freaking out about? Well, we're freaking out about a bunch of people that have engineered a narrative to get us to freak out about it so they can profit off of it. And that's the reality of it, is that all of these green deals and all this green energy, these people get contracts and these, and then there's mandates for what you can and can't use and what you should and shouldn't do. And then people profit off of these directions that we go in. And that's the real problem. It's not like we're looking out for the world. Shut the fuck up. When people say that, we need to look out for the world, like,

• 21:17Joe Rogan?

  none of these people pushing this are looking out for the world, just so you know. You might be, you liberal lady in East Austin with the fucking "Science is Science" bumper sticker on your fucking Prius. Maybe, maybe you really are a genuinely good person looking out for the, the people that are pushing that are not. They're trying to profit. They're sitting in boardrooms and they're showing spreadsheets of how much money they'll make if a certain bill goes through. Because if the certain bill restricts one type of energy and promotes their type of energy, even if their type of energy like windmills is terrible for the environment and radically inefficient, they're gonna profit, and that's what they're thinking about. And so then they're gonna pay politicians to push certain narratives, they're gonna fund these people,

• 22:02Joe Rogan?

  they're gonna put out advertisements for a greener Texas, you know, paid for by a greener Texas. Who's paying that? Corporations, people making large amounts of money. And they don't give a fuck about your environment. They want to make money. They're vampires, they're vampire people.

• 22:21Speaker 01

  And it's always been that way, like, oil companies funded anti-nuclear.

• 22:25Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 22:26Speaker 01

  It's just, that's how it works.

• 22:28Joe Rogan?

  That's how it works.

• 22:29Speaker 01

  In Britain now, so I'm actually gonna get an electric car soon, right? And the reason is, they've created the incentive structures whereby if you get an electric car, especially through your business, you can basically get a car that's twice as good for the same money because you get so much tax write-off. Because, like you said, people have created a structure whereby if you encourage people to do this, they save money.

• 22:54Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 22:55Speaker 01

  And who benefits from that? Well, it's the people who are producing that type of vehicles.

• 23:00Joe Rogan?

  100%. In Texas, we have an issue right now where they're trying to ban marijuana. And why they're trying to do that? Because alcohol sales are way down, like, way down, like, disturbingly down. And one factor that a lot of people aren't taking into consideration is GLP-1s. It's Ozempic. There are fucking millions of people on GLP, and millions more that are lying about me.

• 23:28Joe Rogan?

  Because I have a guy that I know is on them. I said, dude, you're looking great, what are you doing? He's like, oh, calorie restriction.

• 23:36Joe Rogan?

  Well, technically, you're not lying, but you're lying. You're on Ozempic, motherfucker, you know what you're doing.

• 23:42Speaker 02

  Yeah, it's.

• 23:44Joe Rogan?

  Embarrassing.

• 23:45Speaker 02

  You know, I always feel like when you talk about any issue, a lot of it just comes down to education. You know, people don't have a good grasp of actually what's happening. So what it is that people have inside them is a vacuum. And eventually, something has to fill that vacuum.

• 24:00Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 24:01Speaker 02

  Because you can't operate, particularly now, with it going, when someone asks you about whatever it is, climate change, the Middle East, the war, whatever, whatever subject you want to talk about, most people simply don't have the education, the answers, they don't have their own opinions, so they simply reach for something. And you know what you're gonna reach for? You're gonna reach for a slogan.

• 24:20Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 24:21Speaker 02

  And it's gonna come from the most prominent person there is.

• 24:24Joe Rogan?

  I have a theory about why the left is so much more loony, in my opinion, currently. I mean, it's not like the right isn't loony, the right's very fucking loony. But the left is loony in some like things that don't make any sense. And I think it's because the left is secular. Like, almost universally. Like, when you think about the left, you generally don't think about like Christianity or any religion, really. It's more of like a science-based, like, we're too smart for that thing. And I think they're just lost. There's no, there's no moral scaffolding to hold on to. There's no, and I'm not saying, you know, religion is 100% great.

• 25:06Joe Rogan?

  But what I am saying is, there's something about having a structure, like 10 commandments or, you know, whatever they have in, whatever religion we're talking about, where there's rules to abide by, because there's a higher power. And then you worship, and in worshiping, there's a humility to that and a humbleness to that. And then there's this community where everyone's drawn together and we're all agreeing on certain rules. Like, I always talk about like the church parking lot is proof that Christianity works. Because everybody's so nice, they all let you go, like, you go, you go. Like, it's all so orderly, like, nowhere on earth, I'm like, just that alone proves that Christianity can work and that there's something to that.

• 25:45Joe Rogan?

  I guarantee you, if you went to like some trans rights rally and you parked your car and tried to leave, it would not be so kind, it would not be the same, especially if you were like in a pickup truck or something with an American flag on it. Right? They'd be rude as fuck to you. Whereas, I think a part of what's wrong with this, this side of our politics, when you look at the two sides, the left and the right, is that the left is almost, I would, I wanted to know like what percentage of people who identify as progressive have any religion?

• 26:23Speaker 01

  Um, we could probably find that out, Jamie.

• 26:25Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, let's find out.

• 26:25Speaker 01

  That actually would be interesting.

• 26:26Joe Rogan?

  It's what you were talking about with a vacuum. So I think, this is my belief at 59 years of age, that there's a part of people that almost like is designed, a part of the, the human psyche that's designed for religion. And we have had it for so long, we have had it for so many thousands and thousands and thousands of years. I just think it's the way the human mind works. And I think in the absence of religion, we find something that, stop that for a second, we find something that does the job of religion. And that thing that does the job of religion is being progressive or being whatever you're being. You know, like, find, find a cause, find a thing, climate change, whatever it is,

• 27:11Joe Rogan?

  find a thing, that becomes your religion. And anybody that is confronting that with an alternative perspective is a heretic. That's a bad person, that's evil, that's an infidel. And that's how they behave. They behave like religious zealots. Like, I'm sure you've seen these conversations, and you've had them with people. You just confront people in the street and start asking them questions of, if you don't agree with them, even if like you, you're great at it because you're so calm and rational. You see them just fucking, they just don't want to be confronted by alternative perspectives. Very much like a religion.

• 27:46Speaker 01

  No, it's totally, and it's interesting, we just had Jonathan Haidt back on the show. We haven't released it yet, but it's one of the things we talked about. We talked about religion, and he's not a religious person, but he was like, I used to be very snooty about it, and now I just go, whatever you believe, it's a social technology for achieving cohesion within a group and forgiving people. And on a personal level as well, I think one of the things that Christianity in particular is very, very good at is gratitude, which is just a practice that, forget about God and all the rest of it, the practice of acknowledging how fortunate you are at any point in your life is something that changes how you experience life.

• 28:31Speaker 01

  And if you do that every day, I think it's much, much harder to be a deranged lunatic who thinks that they're politi, like, there's political causes I feel very strongly about. But I'm not gonna go on a march and scream at people who don't agree with me. Because I just, that's not, it's not coherent to my worldview of what it is to be human.

• 28:53Joe Rogan?

  It's also radically ineffective.

• 28:55Speaker 01

  And completely ineffective.

• 28:56Joe Rogan?

  Never changes anybody's opinion, ever, ever. No one screams at your face, you go, wow, I see your point. What are the, what are the stats you were trying to pull up earlier, Jamie? So here we go affiliated with a religion seventy eight percent of Republicans Republican leaning independents identify with a religion. So with Democrats, it's about sixty percent.

• 29:18Speaker 02

  Wow.

• 29:18Joe Rogan?

  Interesting. It's a lot more than I thought religiously unaffiliated about thirty nine percent. Did not answer about one percent. Like what is that? Fuck off. One percent across the board.

• 29:30Speaker 02

  They're the libertarians.

• 29:31Joe Rogan?

  I'm in that group. That is the most intelligent group on earth on earth. The about one percent. The one percent that will not answer polls. Those might take on polls always. I was like, here's the problem with polls. Most people don't answer polls. If somebody calls you up and said, I'd like a few moments of your time to ask you a few questions. Fuck you. Hang up. Anybody with a life, anybody that has like a family and stuff to do and hobbies they enjoy, friends they want to hang out with. They don't sit around answering some fucking poll. So you're literally getting the opinion that people so fucking stupid. They answer polls. So add it out of those people. Like if you've, there's an issue like forty nine percent agree. That means less than half of the people that are so fucking stupid. They're answering polls.

• 30:15Joe Rogan?

  Agree with you. That's ungood.

• 30:17Speaker 01

  Right. Yeah. You know, it's the same with the studies that they do at colleges because they always use college students. So like you're getting a very skewed perspective on humanity.

• 30:26Joe Rogan?

  Yes. Yeah.

• 30:27Speaker 01

  If that's how you're measuring what human beings respond to.

• 30:30Joe Rogan?

  Another thing that's interesting with the religious thing when it comes to the left is there's been this larger than normal presence of these like LBGT pastors. And these people that are promoting a very different Christianity, you know, and they're, they're talking about things that you know, biblical scholars like, hey, wait, what page is this on? Where, where does it say abortions? Okay. Like, how are you getting to that? Where does it say God's non-binary? You know, there's a lot of this weirdness that this woke weirdness that's sort of entered into religion in some, some pastors are doing it. And you go, okay, is that good? I don't know if that's good. I mean, is it?

• 31:15Joe Rogan?

  Because you're not following the original stuff. So if we're gonna not follow the original stuff. Shouldn't we go and take out the slavery part first? Like, shouldn't we go and take out the slaughtering of women and children first? Cause that's in there. There's a lot of stuff that's in there. We should probably concentrate on first before we start saying God's non-binary.

• 31:38Joe Rogan?

  You know what I mean?

• 31:39Speaker 02

  Yeah. It's true. It's true. It's like, cause I was raised Catholic and I'm, I go to a church. I went once to a couple of times to a church of England mass. And it's like, look, if you're going to mass, you want the product.

• 31:52Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 31:52Speaker 02

  You want the, you know, you want the real deal. You want the Marlboro Reds.

• 31:55Joe Rogan?

  You want to hear the Latin.

• 31:56Speaker 02

  Yeah. You, you want, you want the good stuff.

• 32:00Speaker 02

  Yeah. You want to sit there and think to yourself, fuck, I'm going to hell and it's going to be awful.

• 32:05Joe Rogan?

  We really should get the original, the original version when they would come down the aisle with incense. It was cannabis. They would have these big fucking like things where they had handle, you know, those things that

• 32:15Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 32:17Joe Rogan?

  Yeah. It was cannabis.

• 32:18Speaker 02

  It was cannabis. What church are you going to?

• 32:20Joe Rogan?

  High as fuck. They're getting everybody high. So they get along with everybody.

• 32:23Speaker 01

  No wonder they're trying to ban it in Texas, man.

• 32:26Joe Rogan?

  The Texas thing is all about alcohol. It's all about alcohol. It's like traceable money to Dan Patrick. And some other people, it's traceable. Like you could see how these people support him and you see that they want this because it's like, it's hurting their business. And if people can just get high and you know, like, here's the thing about marijuana, even if they do what like Colorado did. So Colorado was the first, shout out to Colorado, the first to legalize cannabis. And one of the things they did is say, we're going to put a crazy tax on it. And just use that tax for fucking schools and all kinds of stuff. Everybody be happy because you got all this new tax revenue. I think it was like thirty nine percent. Which is really, and everybody's like, great, fine. Because marijuana is relatively inexpensive.

• 33:10Joe Rogan?

  Like if you go out drinking with some buddies. Fuck, man. You bring five buddies. You're picking up a tab. They're picking up a tab. You guys are having fun. You're drinking, you're ordering. You have five, six hundred dollars at the end of the night. Easy, easy, right? Easy. Marijuana, six hundred dollars, you're dead. You smoke six hundred dollars of the weed will fuck you up for a month. You'll be just lying in your bed going, why did I do that?

• 33:35Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 33:36Joe Rogan?

  It's, it's not going to happen. It's a different thing. It's like one joint. Like what is a joint these days? Jamie, you're a young fellow.

• 33:44Speaker 04

  In California where you can legally buy them, probably in the range of fifteen and twenty dollars.

• 33:48Joe Rogan?

  Yeah. Fifteen, twenty bucks. You're barbecued for the whole night.

• 33:51Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 33:51Joe Rogan?

  Especially California cannabis. They, they've got scientists that have been working on this shit for a long time, man. They are not normal joints. Every now and then Ron White will bring one by the mothership and you're like, get that out of here before everybody dies.

• 34:07Joe Rogan?

  No one can handle this. They all dust them with keef. They, they have THC crystals all over them. It's like, they're going too hard. They sell, they sell some joints that are like guaranteed to fuck you up. They're like a hundred bucks.

• 34:18Speaker 02

  And it's also as well, it's like young people don't have the money to go out boozing like we did when we were young, when, when everything was much cheaper.

• 34:26Joe Rogan?

  Well, there's also, I think, and this is a positive aspect of the internet, um, and all these uh, health and wellness influencers is that a lot of people are realizing like, hey, alcohol is actually bad for you. I like it. I took a long time off of it. Took like eight months, which is a long time for me. And um, I noticed a big difference the moment, moment I stopped drinking. I just felt way better. Felt better throughout the day. Felt like my energy levels were much more consistent. I felt better waking up. It's better. It's not good to poison yourself all the time.

• 34:57Speaker 04

  Right.

• 34:57Joe Rogan?

  But it's also fun.

• 34:59Speaker 01

  Well, right. It's like, it's like all drugs. It's got good and bad.

• 35:03Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 35:03Speaker 01

  I would say alcohol is kind of a shit drug in terms of the good versus the bad. I'd like a glass, a glass of wine with dinner or something, but beyond that, the trade-offs go way down. Like the second, third, like you're not.

• 35:14Joe Rogan?

  Right, right, right.

• 35:15Speaker 01

  It's not improving your enjoyment of the evening.

• 35:17Joe Rogan?

  No.

• 35:19Speaker 01

  It's very expensive and you, and at our age, you wake up the next day.

• 35:23Speaker 02

  Oh, man.

• 35:24Speaker 01

  I, I'm like, I, after one glass of wine, I wake up the next day. I'm like, oh, you know, even

• 35:28Joe Rogan?

  One glass of wine?

• 35:29Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, that'll do.

• 35:31Joe Rogan?

  You know what? It'll help you. Glutathione.

• 35:33Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 35:34Joe Rogan?

  Yeah. Yeah. Um, especially liposomal glutathione. It's more bioavailable. But glutathione is really good for

• 35:42Speaker 01

  You take it the night when you're drinking?

• 35:43Joe Rogan?

  Take it while you're drinking. Take it before you're drinking. Take it after you're drinking.

• 35:47Speaker 01

  All right. I'm back on the sauce. Thanks, Joe.

• 35:49Joe Rogan?

  But also there's an, one of the issues with alcohol is dehydration.

• 35:53Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 35:53Joe Rogan?

  And it's an amino suppressant. So you should be taking amino acids. Uh, you should be taking, um, definitely some electrolytes. But also glutathione.

• 36:02Speaker 01

  It's a kind of mixed sales pitch. Imagine you were like a rep for an alcohol company. You can, you can have a glass of wine, but you need to take about five supplements at the same time.

• 36:10Joe Rogan?

  Well, listen, I think everybody should take supplements anyway.

• 36:12Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 36:13Joe Rogan?

  I, I really do. I think there's a lot of misleading doctors out there that you shouldn't listen to. That'll tell, I got a doctor with a pot belly once tell me that you get everything you need from a balanced diet. I'm like, shut the fuck up. You, you shut the fuck up. I didn't say that to him, but I really wanted to. I was kind of gentle about it. I said, sir. Uh, I have been taking vitamins for a long time and I noticed a market difference between when I take them and when I don't take them. There's a lot of benefits and there's a lot of peer reviewed studies that show benefits of vitamins. So let's just stop talking about this before I get fucking angry at you, you fat fuck.

• 36:47Joe Rogan?

  Fat fuck giving out health advice.

• 36:49Speaker 02

  Yeah. Thanks for looking at me when you said that, Joe. I appreciate it.

• 36:55Speaker 02

  And then you looked at me while you said

• 36:56Joe Rogan?

  But I had to look at you. I'm being kind. I'm a polite host.

• 37:01Speaker 02

  But um, I like, you know, one of my, uh, one of my cousins, this is a true story. Uh, he was a cardiologist. He used to smoke like forty a day.

• 37:09Joe Rogan?

  Great.

• 37:10Speaker 02

  Perfect.

• 37:12Joe Rogan?

  He's probably stressed out. He's probably got bills to pay and fucking, I don't know what you guys have over there because you have, your, your education isn't free.

• 37:20Speaker 02

  Not

• 37:20Speaker 01

  Up to what level?

• 37:21Joe Rogan?

  Up to like, so to get a doctor's degree.

• 37:24Speaker 01

  No, no, no, that's not free. No, no, no.

• 37:26Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 37:26Speaker 01

  It's free up until college.

• 37:28Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 37:28Speaker 01

  But then, then you have to pay.

• 37:29Joe Rogan?

  Um, and then what about liability insurance? Do you guys have outrageous liability insurance for doctors? Cause that's a giant issue with doctors in America.

• 37:37Speaker 01

  I don't think it's as outrageous as it is here because we, our laws are different and we're also not such a litigious culture. Like a British person who's had a bad experience, unless it's really, really bad, will not be like, I'm suing the fucking, like, we don't tend to do that.

• 37:51Joe Rogan?

  Wouldn't that be nice? Wouldn't that be nice? This episode is brought to you by Visible. As fall hits, we enter another season of change. Time to shift gears, drop the dead weight and upgrade the wardrobe for the drop in temperature. But one thing that doesn't need to change? Your phone. The smartest upgrade this season isn't a new phone. It's a better wireless plan. Switch to Visible, the ultimate wireless hack. You get unlimited 5G data and unlimited hotspot powered by Verizon for just $25 a month. That means keeping the phone you already have, ditching your overpriced phone bill and pocketing some savings for yourself. All the perks of big wireless for half the cost. Switch today at visible.com.

• 38:36Joe Rogan?

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• 39:21Joe Rogan?

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• 40:03Joe Rogan?

  Just go to thefarmersdog.com/rogan. This offer is for new customers only. Wouldn't that be nice?

• 40:10Speaker 02

  Yeah, but there's a trade-off to it, which is like, our service culture in the UK is objectively disgusting.

• 40:17Speaker 01

  It's a lot closer to the Soviet Union than it is to America. Like, in the Soviet Union, when, basically, if you went to a shop, they would treat you like they were doing you a favor. And Britain is much closer to that than it is to America, where every...

• 40:30Joe Rogan?

  Really?

• 40:31Speaker 01

  Yeah, where people are like happy to see you. Like, I walk into a restaurant in Texas, they're happy to see you. I'm like, what the fuck? And it takes me like a week to adjust to the fact that people are nice.

• 40:40Joe Rogan?

  Well, people are nice here in general. Like, much nicer than California. And I think one of the reasons is there's less people. I really believe that there's an effect that it has on humans, no matter who you are, when there's an enormous number of people surrounding you all the time. I think it's just...

• 40:56Speaker 01

  I totally agree, man.

• 40:59Joe Rogan?

  I think it's, this place is only a million people.

• 41:01Speaker 01

  Well, you know, there was a guy, I talk about this all the time when we talk about, you know, everyone's concerned about plummeting birth rates and all of that. And a lot of people are...

• 41:08Joe Rogan?

  Everybody but Elon.

• 41:09Speaker 01

  Yeah, he's pumping them out, man.

• 41:13Joe Rogan?

  But he is concerned, that's why he's doing it.

• 41:15Speaker 01

  He's doing something about it. I'm at replacement rate with my family now.

• 41:19Joe Rogan?

  Congratulations. Good job.

• 41:20Speaker 01

  But I, but I think, my sense has always been, I read this great book by a guy called Desmond Morris. He was a primatologist. He studied great apes. And he wrote a book called The Human Zoo, which was all about how the city creates in human beings the kind of responses that a zoo creates in animals. Higher rates of interpersonal violence, higher rates of mental illness, lower reproductiveness, higher rates of depression, all of this stuff.

• 41:46Joe Rogan?

  Totally makes sense.

• 41:47Speaker 01

  And I've moved out of the small town that I lived in outside, and I already noticed the difference. Like, we went in on a Saturday to do some shopping, and I was like, get me the fuck out of here. Like, after 10 minutes, it was just like too many people.

• 42:00Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 42:01Speaker 01

  I only go into London now for work, do the work, come out and just hide in my house now.

• 42:06Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, so you become accustomed to that buzz of the city.

• 42:11Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 42:11Joe Rogan?

  But it's not necessarily good for you.

• 42:12Speaker 01

  It's not good for you. I don't think it's good for you.

• 42:14Joe Rogan?

  I don't think it is either.

• 42:15Speaker 02

  No. Being accustomed to the buzz of the city is like being accustomed to social media. It's constant dopamine, it's constant, constant, constant. You, you're always looking for the next thing. You're always looking for something to stimulate you. It's why a lot of people in the city, when things go quiet, they can't handle it.

• 42:33Joe Rogan?

  Right. Yeah, I have a good friend who's lived in Manhattan for, boy, more than 30 years. And he recently got a place on Fire Island, not recently, like within the last 10, 15 years. And he said, without that place on Fire Island, he wouldn't even be able to keep his place in Manhattan. He said he can't deal with it anymore. But Fire Island's like a small island. I don't think they even have cars. I think you get there on a ferry and everybody rides bikes and it's like... And so he goes there, and then he comes back, beep beep, fuck you. But he just, you, the contrast of the two of them makes it livable.

• 43:07Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 43:08Joe Rogan?

  Whereas, when I first met him, he was like, I fucking love it. I love the energy of this city. And I was there like, I've got my own energy. I gotta get the fuck out of here. I don't like this. I like woods. I like peace. I like to be able to sit on top of a hill and see birds fall overhead. That's what I like. I like nature. I do not like being in like a cramped fucking group of all kinds of people stacked, feeling each other's energy. It's fun occasionally. New York's fun to visit. But living there, sleeping there, it pays, you pay a toll.

• 43:40Speaker 02

  You, you do pay a toll because that city, like, we've got a friend who lets us use his apartment, and it's a beautiful apartment in Manhattan. But you can never really sleep because the, what you said is like, nah, nah.

• 43:52Joe Rogan?

  Especially if you're low.

• 43:53Speaker 02

  Fuck you, fuck you in the ass!

• 43:54Joe Rogan?

  Whoa.

• 43:56Speaker 02

  And it's like, you go, what's going on? And it's like, it's 3:15. Do you know what I mean?

• 44:01Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 44:01Speaker 02

  And you're going, people are insane. They're driven insane by this.

• 44:05Joe Rogan?

  Well, it's also a 24-hour city, a legitimate 24-hour city. You know, and when I was single, it was great. Because pool halls are open in New York City 24 hours a day. So, you know, Chelsea Billiards, which is where we would go, was like this crazy place that was like a playground that was open 24 hours a day. Like, this is nuts. And then you can go to a diner, you can go, you could get a real meal. Apparently, a lot of this died during COVID. But you can get like a steak dinner at 4:00 AM. Like, a nice restaurant, you could sit down. Like, this is crazy. This place is nuts. It was fun when I was 23.

• 44:39Speaker 01

  It's fun. It's fun. New York is a lot of fun. We have a good time. We're there for a week. We go to our favorite cigar bars. You know, all of that. It's fun.

• 44:46Joe Rogan?

  Fun.

• 44:47Speaker 01

  It's fun. But I think it's also, once you get married and you have kids, then the calculus changes completely. Like, I would rather spend half an hour with my son walking in the woods

• 44:57Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 44:58Speaker 01

  over, you know, whatever the best New York has to offer. You know what I mean? It's just...

• 45:01Joe Rogan?

  For sure. Well, it's for me too. A lot changed, was I, when I'm, when I got on, moved to Los Angeles, I started moving further and further away from the city. And as I moved further and further away from the city, I became more and more relaxed. And I was like, I think there's something to this.

• 45:18Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 45:19Joe Rogan?

  And so where I lived, most of the time when I was living in LA, was not even in LA County. I was living in the neighborhood county, neighboring county. I had plenty of acres. I had mountain lions and bobcats and all kinds of shit in my neighborhood, deer in my neighborhood. It's way more relaxed. It was just, I could go outside and just hear birds and, you know, and see, you know, a hawk circling over a canyon looking for a rabbit. It was awesome. I loved it. It was just so much better than just being inundated with sounds. Sounds and movement and activity is just like, ugh.

• 45:52Speaker 02

  You know, when I, when I was teaching, I remember every year, because I was teaching a really rough part of East London, we used to take the kids away for a one-week residential in, out in the countryside, and they would do activities and whatever else. And you would literally see a different side to these kids.

• 46:08Joe Rogan?

  100%.

• 46:09Speaker 02

  You would, when you saw them on the playground, they were surrounded by concrete and just skyscrapers and tower blocks. They, everybody, even when you started the day, everybody, and these some, these were 10, 11-year-old kids. Everybody just felt amped, like they were ready to confer, for confrontation, they were ready to go.

• 46:27Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 46:27Speaker 02

  After a week in the countryside, you saw a different side to these kids.

• 46:31Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, because that's how people are supposed to live. That's how we evolved. Just like we evolved with religion, we also evolved in nature. And I think we're struggling with the absence of both of those things in our society. And the big one, to me, the biggest one, is not just nature, but is also light pollution.

• 46:50Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 46:50Joe Rogan?

  You know, we were talking about the other day, Callum Tyrell, hilarious stand-up comedian was on, and he was talking about how he goes to Big Ben and goes down to this area of Texas, in South Texas, that is like one of the best places to see the sky, the night sky, and how fucking insane it is. He just, just, you're confronted by the Milky Way and all these stars. I think that chills people out too. That puts, that puts your place in the universe in perspective. And in the cities, that's the most absent. You can't see any stars. So in the cities, everything's bright, you just see a black sky. Who gives a fuck what's up there? Let's go eat. Let's go do this. Let's go do that. Fuck these people. You're fucking fascists. Or you're like, whatever it is.

• 47:32Joe Rogan?

  It's like, you're, you're living in this, this very tiny, blinder world.

• 47:39Speaker 01

  I think for people like us as well, who, who by virtue of what we do are digitally plugged in, like, we have to kind of pay attention a little bit to what's going on. I certainly spend a lot of time on my phone. When, you know, I remember a month or two ago, there was some shit going on, people talking shit about, as always, about us on social media or in the papers, whatever. And then I just sit in my garden and I see these two giant trees that are like 300 years old. Who gives a fuck?

• 48:04Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 48:04Speaker 01

  When you're there, you just go, who gives a fuck? It's, you know, we're all just-

• 48:07Joe Rogan?

  It's also the cost of what we do.

• 48:09Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 48:09Joe Rogan?

  The cost of what we do is people are going to have opinions. You want them to have opinions. Some of the opinions are gonna suck and some of them are gonna be completely outrageous and some are gonna be just outright lies where they just wanna take you down. That's okay.

• 48:20Speaker 01

  Yeah, the lies piss me off. I'll be honest, the lies piss me off because I'm like, I am happy to be criticized for mistakes I make. I'm happy to be criticized for things that I said inarticulately. I'm happy to be criticized by people who don't like my worldview. But don't fucking lie about it. Don't make a bullshit about me and, and tell other people that that's what I am. That pisses me off.

• 48:43Joe Rogan?

  That, we should reject that from everyone, from both sides. And the problem is if it aligns with your ideology, you won't call it out and you accept it. And it's fine. It's just like, you know, I always say that these parties that, you know, unfortunately, we only have two, are defined by the craziest members of those parties. Like, when you think about the left, what do you think about? People that want trans women in sports and communism and an open border? And then when you think about the right, what do you think about? Like Patriot Front and fucking, you know, religious fundamentalists that want the Bible in every school and, you know, xenophobic people that think this is a white Christian nation and that's it?

• 49:24Joe Rogan?

  It's just so exhausting. And if you spend enough time absorbing all of this online, it'd completely warp your worldview instead of just basing your worldview on how you interact with people in real life. You know, and most people now are tainted by this, so even interacting with them in real life is a problem. Especially if you don't catch them one-on-one.

• 49:47Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 49:47Joe Rogan?

  You know, it was three of them and one of you, then it's a problem. Like, why are you talking to me like this? Like, you would never talk to me like this, it was you and me and we were alone. This is crazy. This is a crazy way to talk to people. If you have an opinion about something and we both have the time, which is another thing, to actually discuss this, like, this is a time-consuming nuanced discussion. Like, let's, if, which is a beautiful thing of what we're allowed to do. We can sit down and have those discussions. And I think it's super beneficial for other people to be able to listen. Because if someone sees some Twitter hot take on you, they can get a very distorted perception of who you are. And then they hear you on a podcast, they go, wait a minute, this guy is pretty reasonable. He seems like a nice guy. Like, what the fuck is going on in the world?

• 50:32Speaker 01

  Right.

• 50:33Joe Rogan?

  But if you're only a Clips person and you're only a Twitter person and you're only a hot take person, you just, and you're tired, you're, you're working all day, you have a fucking whole bunch of obligations. You're gonna like lock into a fake version of the world. And that version of the world is gonna give you anxiety.

• 50:49Speaker 02

  But it's also about incentives. Because if you are a hot takes person, if you are a Clips person, you actually don't care about the truth because that's not what you're aiming for. What you're actually aiming for is engagement, it's views, it's all the rest of it, it's money. So unfortunately, as we all know, there's, the truth is important, but it doesn't generate, it doesn't engage people as much as a hot take, as much as something that is potentially divisive.

• 51:15Joe Rogan?

  Here's how I push back on that, the success of podcasts like yours. And mine. Like, this is the difference, right? It's like, it's clear that there's a thirst for this. There's a hunger for people having discussions. And for people that say, oh, well, I see this point of view, I see why you would think that way, this is what I think, and let's talk. There's a hunger for that, obviously.

• 51:35Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 51:36Joe Rogan?

  It's not just that the only interaction that humans are having is these bullshit artists that are making these fake posts or these, these very biased posts just to get engagement because that's how they make their money. Which, that's a, it's a sizable population online. But there's also plenty of people that are having real conversations.

• 51:55Speaker 01

  Yeah. And it's like you said, I think politics is what, what changes all of it. And, and maybe that's where I acknowledge that we, like, when we started the show, we had a rule that we would never have sitting politicians on the show. And then, you know, we, we got interested in more politics and we had access to more politicians and suddenly we talked to a few of them. And then people go, oh, okay, so this is like, you're on a team, you're on the other team.

• 52:19Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 52:20Speaker 01

  And now the gloves are off. Man, it is crazy. Like, we were sitting in Airbnb yesterday, preparing for one of our interviews, watching something on YouTube, but because we weren't logged in with our own account, you get YouTube ads. And right now, as we're recording this, it's the midterms coming up. And the political attack ads? Have you seen this shit?

• 52:38Joe Rogan?

  Oh, I've seen a lot of them in America.

• 52:39Speaker 01

  Bro, it is, if you show that to a person who's not used to, like, it is shocking to me. It's like, Ken Paxton loves pedophiles, whoa!

• 52:48Joe Rogan?

  Right, right, right, right.

• 52:49Speaker 01

  And, and the other way too.

• 52:50Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 52:51Speaker 01

  Like, James Salerico wants to take your daughter and rape her and then trans her. Like, whoa!

• 52:57Speaker 01

  It is since, like, imagine, imagine talking about people like that.

• 53:01Joe Rogan?

  Right, right.

• 53:02Speaker 01

  Imagine you came on here and you were just like, the Republicans wanna trans your kids and the Demo, or the Democrats, no, that would be crazy. The Democrats wanna trans-

• 53:11Joe Rogan?

  Well, listen, give it another 30 years.

• 53:13Speaker 01

  Right.

• 53:13Joe Rogan?

  And it could completely swing.

• 53:16Speaker 01

  Yeah. When the Republicans are transing your kids, that's when you know you really are fucked.

• 53:20Joe Rogan?

  Well, that's when we know that the world is a changed place, when there's secretly straight people.

• 53:25Speaker 01

  Right.

• 53:25Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 53:25Joe Rogan?

  So like, there's someone living a gay lifestyle because it's super popular, but he's secretly straight. And we have to like find him and TMZ catches him making out with a woman. Look! Like Donald Sutherland in Invasion of the Body of Thatchers. Oh!

• 53:40Speaker 02

  Somebody gets outed for watching straight porn.

• 53:43Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, one day, one day, one day, if the, the Democrats have their way.

• 53:47Speaker 01

  Yeah. But then, but then, like you said, I mean, the stakes, I also see it the other way though, because the stakes are high. Like, if you, if you take illegal immigration, like, that was a real problem in this country under the Democrats. Like, gigantic, right?

• 54:00Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, gigantic.

• 54:01Speaker 01

  So, so a lot of people-

• 54:02Joe Rogan?

  Not according to The View, by the way. The View fact-checked me on that. In fact, the border was closed. That was one of the, yeah, oh my god, they did a fact-check of me saying why I voted Republican. And I said, there's, there were so many things that were going the wrong way with the past administration. One of them, you knew that it wasn't Biden running it. It was, whoever was in his cabinet, they were running the country. It wasn't Biden, he was out of his fucking mind. We all know that. We accept it. There's a bunch of people have come out and said that, that were working there now. So that was one. The other one was the border was wide open. And that people were fucking coming through and fucking Sunny Hostin fact-checked me and actually was saying that Biden told people not to come, like, come, but they did!

• 54:44Joe Rogan?

  And yeah, look, Greg Abbott, our governor, did bus people to New York City because like, look, you guys are past these policies? You want this border wide open? You fucking handle these people. And that is true. But it was also true that the Red Cross had stations that were set up where people, give people maps, tell them how to get in, that once people did get in, they were given plane tickets, they were given EBT cards, they were given cell phones, they were put up in luxury hotels. All this is true. Not, not just that, but a disproportionate amount of people who moved in, who came here illegally, moved to swing states. Kinda crazy. Seems a little odd. Seems a little odd that you get a large portion of them set up in Ohio

• 55:28Joe Rogan?

  and set up in a bunch of these different places, like the Haitians in Ohio, it's a famous part. But it's like, there's clearly an incentive. You know what the incentive is. The census counts humans. It doesn't count legal citizens. So if there's 10 million humans and half of them are illegal, doesn't matter. That's, that indicates how many congressional seats you get. That's real. So if you just flood a place that you're already in control with illegal immigrants that you're paying for, this isn't rocket science. That's gonna help you stay in power. And that's what was going on. And I felt like that is crazy.

• 56:09Joe Rogan?

  So Kamala Harris was recently talking about how they need to add more people to the Supreme Court and then they, they need to turn DC and Puerto Rico into states. And why do you wanna do that? Because if you do that, then you have control forever. Right? And that's, that's the reality that I was confronted with, with the choices between Kamala Harris and Donald Trump. It's something like, I looked at this, the Trump administration and I'm saying, well, this is perfect. This is exactly what we want. I, I love it when he has a, a picture of himself as Jesus and he posts it up on Truth Social. This is great. I mean, I think some of the things he's done are good, for sure. And I think some of the things the FBI has done, this is one of the things that the, the left does not want to confront. There's been a significant drop in crime.

• 56:54Joe Rogan?

  Significant, significant drop in crime, measurable drop in crime because of the FBI under Cash Patel and this new administration. Now, I don't know why, I don't know what it means. Some people say it's because of under-reporting, which is an issue. Because, especially places like Los Angeles- No one gives a fuck if you get robbed. No one gives a fuck if your car gets broken into. They're not gonna do anything. So it's under-reported crime. And so they say crime is down. But is it? No. Not if you talk to people. Everybody that I know that lives in Los Angeles says it's fucking Gotham City now. It's fucking nuts. Whereas it wasn't 15 years ago. So what happened? What happened was the same policies that you fucking people keep voting for, keep going further and further and further and further down the line.

• 57:38Joe Rogan?

  And the further they go, the more things get shitty. And no one wants to change because you're in a cult.

• 57:44Speaker 02

  Yeah. And it's also worth... You know, people say these policies are kind, that it's the right thing to do morally. As, you know, as somebody who talks to... Whenever I see a Venezuelan person, I always wanna talk to them because I wanna see how they're doing, how they feel the country is doing, how Venezuela is doing.

• 58:03Joe Rogan?

  Because you're from Venezuela, we should tell people that.

• 58:05Speaker 02

  Yeah. And one thing that... I remember this conversation I had with an Uber driver. And he was talking to me and he said to me, "Look, when you go on the pods," because I follow your pod and I listen to Joe and I follow all these pods, "please tell people that Venezuelan people, we're not criminals, we're not people coming here to cause trouble. The vast majority of us only wanna come here to work." And he goes, "But those are the people who do it legally. The other people who come in..." Now, I'm sure that some of them just wanna come in. A lot of them wanna come in just for a better life. But you're also allowing a portion of people to come in who are criminals, who are gonna cause trouble. And that's gonna give a bad reputation to every single Venezuelan person who is here.

• 58:49Speaker 02

  Because the moment you hear Venezuelan, you think, "Oh, Tránsito Aragua", which is the very famous gang, which is causing hu... which was causing huge amounts of problem in America. Drug runnings, killings, gang activity. So immediately, when you think of a Venezuelan, you go, "Oh, Tránsito Aragua". You don't think of the guy who's coming along, who's gonna work for you, who's gonna drive your Uber, who's just doing what he can to make ends meet.

• 59:14Joe Rogan?

  Now, let me ask you this. Do you think that allowing the illegals in and the criminals in, not just the illegal, let's say, because everyone who comes in that doesn't do it the right way is illegal. So allowing criminals to come through as well, knowing that this will increase violent crime. Do you think that that is just an unintended side effect of the goal they're trying to achieve, which is get more congressional seats, control districts, make it so that the other party can't win? Or do you think that they have calculated this and said that this would probably be a way that we can institute much more control, like flock cameras? And have the ability to tap into people's phones,

• 59:58Joe Rogan?

  find out if they're doing illegal activity? And that people will actually allow us to do this? Because we'll do it under the premise that we're making the streets safe again?

• 1:00:07Speaker 01

  And it's probably quite hard to separate the criminals from the non-criminals as well. If the border is open, then they're just coming in, right?

• 1:00:12Joe Rogan?

  It's impossible. How would you know?

• 1:00:13Speaker 01

  The other thing, we had Andrew Yang on recently, and this is where it gets even worse. Because one of the reasons he left the sort of conventional Republican-Democratic party model was he said, "Actually, neither party wants to solve the problem." And he was saying, "Some Republicans will deliberately avoid allowing Democrats to close the border because it gives them something to run on."

• 1:00:35Joe Rogan?

  Of course, yeah.

• 1:00:37Speaker 01

  And that's fucking crazy.

• 1:00:38Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:00:39Speaker 01

  That is fucking crazy.

• 1:00:40Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, Anna Paulina Luna explained that to me.

• 1:00:43Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:00:43Joe Rogan?

  She was like, "There's a bunch of issues that they don't want resolved because that's how they... That's how they raise finances."

• 1:00:49Speaker 01

  They can run on it.

• 1:00:50Joe Rogan?

  They run on them. It's a campaign talking point. And it's like, you gotta have it. You gotta have it in your bag.

• 1:00:55Speaker 01

  See, this is where I think the left has a lot of very good points, actually, which is the accumulation of power within big corporations and government. That's why, when I was younger, I always thought of myself, and I haven't really changed my opinions very much. I thought of myself as being on the left. Because the more, actually, we do our show and the more people we speak to who are in positions to know, the more I'm just confronted by how much behavior in that part of our society is driven by greed and not morality. These people are not moral.

• 1:01:27Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 1:01:27Speaker 01

  I'm not even saying they're immoral. I think they're worse, they're amoral. They don't give a fuck. As long as they win the election, they make money, they increase their bonus. That's... That is so scary to me. It's much scarier, actually, than people intentionally doing bad things, in a way. And that accumulation of power in the hands of a very small number of people, that's a real thing, man.

• 1:01:50Joe Rogan?

  It's a real thing. And it's also a part of the culture of those groups of people, right? Like, there's a diffusion of responsibility aspect of being a part of a corporation that's doing things that are fucked up. Like, say if you're working for a corporation and they manufacture something and you find out that these people are dumping some sort of toxic waste in the third world. Like, not me, I'm in Dallas. I'm working on... I'm at my desk. I'm doing spreadsheets, you know? But you're a part of this corporation, right? But you don't think, "Oh, my God, I'm a part of an evil movement that's killing fish in a river somewhere in Cambodia or whatever." That's not how you think. You are a part of this culture. And you... If you're a lawyer, "Hey, I know he's guilty, I gotta get him off. This is the job."

• 1:02:35Joe Rogan?

  If you're working in a corporation, "Hey, we're here to make money. Like, this is what we do. We have shareholders, we're working 16 hours a day. We're on fucking Adderall." You know, we don't have time for morals. Okay, maybe one day I'll be moral, but right now I want a house in the Hamptons. I wanna yacht. I wanna own a fucking jet. And I think I can get there. Because I know that the guy who used to be the CEO, he left, he got $600 million. And this is what the culture is. The culture is all about making the most money pop as possible. And when you're around a bunch of other people that are doing that, it seems fine. The responsibility of being moral is completely removed. You're a part of a giant machine that you can't stop. And so, listen, you know, we are, you know, Xerox or Raytheon, whatever it is.

• 1:03:18Joe Rogan?

  You don't think, you know, "Oh, I can have an effect on the world with my decisions and I should probably do the right thing." Like, there's none of that going on.

• 1:03:28Speaker 02

  No. And also as well, the people that do think like that, they're gonna self-select out of that system.

• 1:03:34Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:03:34Speaker 02

  Because they're gonna be there going, "Oh, dude, we're doing this? I can't live with this."

• 1:03:38Joe Rogan?

  They'll leave, they'll write an article for The Atlantic, nobody will read it. That's it, that's the end of it.

• 1:03:44Speaker 01

  It's how I think about what we do, though. It's like, I think of Trigonometry as like a family-owned restaurant, right? We're feeding people information, right? Or conversation, or whatever it is. But we are providing something that people ingest.

• 1:03:58Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:03:59Speaker 01

  There is a responsibility that comes with that, right? You shouldn't put, you know, lead and mercury and all kinds of shit in there to make it taste better or make more money or whatever. And we know there's people we could have on our show that would get 10 times the views.

• 1:04:14Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 1:04:14Speaker 01

  But it's just not... It's not what we do, you know?

• 1:04:17Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, no, and I respect that. I think it's clear in your conversations that that's not what you're trying to do. You're not gonna play gotcha. Whereas, no disrespect to Pierce Morgan, that's his business model. His business model is have a bunch of people on, have them fucking yell at each other, "Whee!"

• 1:04:33Joe Rogan?

  He's great at it.

• 1:04:35Speaker 01

  It's also a time thing, I think, when people have a very short period of time, it inevitably becomes that.

• 1:04:39Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:04:39Speaker 01

  If you ever see Pierce doing long-form interviews, some of them are incredible.

• 1:04:45Joe Rogan?

  Oh, sure. I'm not even talking about him, I'm talking about his show.

• 1:04:48Speaker 01

  Yeah, the model, yeah, yeah, yeah, no, I get it.

• 1:04:49Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:04:50Speaker 01

  Yeah, I can slag off Pierce, there's no problem. You douchebag. No. Yeah, the model, I agree. That model is... What it does is it attracts attention. But I think, once you've watched it... I think it was actually our mutual friend, Chris Williamson, told me about this. He said, "There's a thing..." You know that post-nut clarity?

• 1:05:09Joe Rogan?

  Yes.

• 1:05:09Speaker 01

  There's post-content clarity.

• 1:05:11Joe Rogan?

  Oh, yeah.

• 1:05:11Speaker 01

  And when you watch something that's outrage porn, you get that post-content, "Ugh, like, why have I spent 15 minutes watching it?" You know?

• 1:05:20Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, I try not to. When I see people like, you know, "Destroyed this guy on this..." Like, I don't want that in my life. I'm not interested. If something's particularly interesting, someone will send it to me. So this is my filtration system now for online content. If a friend doesn't send it to me that I think is a cool and interesting friend, I don't read it.

• 1:05:40Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:05:41Joe Rogan?

  So most of what I get, unless I'm on the toilet, I'm getting from the toilet, I will just give in.

• 1:05:46Speaker 01

  The toilet is where bad things happen.

• 1:05:47Joe Rogan?

  And I will give in and go, "What are you yelling about?" But it's made my life infinitely better.

• 1:05:53Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:05:53Joe Rogan?

  Infinitely.

• 1:05:54Speaker 02

  But the issue is, the incentives are baked all the way through. Like, when I wrote my book, Uneducated, I remember people saying to me, "Oh, you're gonna write about the cultural wars in education", talking about, you know, how the cultural wars affected you in your classroom. I was like, "Mate, I was teaching in a fucking ghetto in East London. We didn't have time to talk about decolonization." Because you can't do it. You can't do it. How are you gonna talk about decolonization when a kid's throwing a chair at your head?

• 1:06:22Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:06:23Speaker 02

  You know what I mean? But it would have been... And then when you go and promote the book, people are like, "Whoa, did you talk about trans in the classroom?" I'm like, "No, mate. I was trying just to have a lesson."

• 1:06:33Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:06:33Speaker 02

  You know, we didn't have that.

• 1:06:34Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:06:34Speaker 02

  But the moment you know that by doing that, you're gonna forsake a large part of outrage, you know, interest in what you do because you're not playing that game.

• 1:06:47Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 1:06:47Speaker 02

  And you're forsaking the clips for that.

• 1:06:49Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, but who cares?

• 1:06:50Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:06:50Joe Rogan?

  It's like, that's not what you're into anyway. It's like, if you run a vegetarian restaurant and that's what your thing is...

• 1:06:56Speaker 02

  I have the look of a man who runs a vegetarian restaurant.

• 1:07:00Joe Rogan?

  But you don't get upset if someone else is, you know, making money selling steak. Like, that's what they do. If you wanna sell steak, you sell steak.

• 1:07:06Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:07:07Joe Rogan?

  Not... That's a bad comparison, because what you guys do is better. It's like, you're the steak.

• 1:07:11Speaker 01

  We're the steak.

• 1:07:11Joe Rogan?

  Yeah. It's like, someone's out there buying vegan burgers and getting really sick.

• 1:07:16Speaker 02

  No, it's... And that's what we try to do. It's, you know, you realize, I know it sounds kinda hacky, but when your platform goes to a size that, "We're about to hit 2 million subscribers now", and you do an interview, you think, "Oh, fuck, like, we've got real responsibility here." If somebody says something that is actually, you know, that you think isn't right, it's your duty to challenge them. It's also your duty to, you know, to make sure that the interview is prepped properly so that when they have their arguments, you can go, "Well, actually, what about this? What about that?"

• 1:07:49Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 1:07:49Speaker 02

  All of these things. Because you realize what you're putting out into the world, it matters. People are gonna consume it and they're gonna take it as fact.

• 1:07:58Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, it does matter. And if you abandon that feeling of responsibility just because you want the outrage clicks, it's like, you're just a part of the problem. Yeah, I mean, you gotta be able to have conversations with people. And this is why I push back against the idea that people have a shorter attention span than ever. It's like, do they though? I feel like they're the just people. I feel like people are just people. I don't think I'm unique. I think I like listening to audiobooks because I think they're interesting. And I think I'm not alone. I think they're very popular. They sell a lot of audiobooks. It's one of the big reasons why Spotify got into podcasting. It's because their audiobook sales, or streams, rather. There were, a lot of people were streaming audiobooks.

• 1:08:40Joe Rogan?

  And like, wow, a lot of people just, they don't just want music. Let's get into other things. People like to be informed and have their brain excited. It's good. And you can have it excited in a negative way, like get outraged. And that's a problem. It can hijack your concentration in that way. It can hijack your attention. But also, what's more fulfilling is getting your brain stimulated in a positive way. Or at least an intriguing way. Something that like really makes you think about things. I love when I listen to a podcast, I listen to a conversation, and I carry that thought with me. Like, I'll shut the radio off and I'm driving, I'm like, wow, okay. And I'll just contemplate and think about things. You know, and I think there's, I'm not alone. This is not a unique thing that I have.

• 1:09:25Joe Rogan?

  I think there's millions of people out there like that. They're just, that desire is not being fulfilled, so it gets, their attention gets hijacked by horseshit.

• 1:09:36Speaker 01

  Well, and I think the direction of travel is clear. I mean, a lot of people in our space like to be, oh, TV's dead, blah, blah, blah. Well, if you look at the absolute numbers, they are way up here, right? Than collectively, than YouTube and podcasts. But the direction of travel is only one way from here. They're gonna go down, we're gonna go up.

• 1:09:54Joe Rogan?

  Do you think that the views on television are higher than the views on like, say YouTube? I don't even think it's close.

• 1:10:01Speaker 01

  That's interesting.

• 1:10:02Joe Rogan?

  YouTube is infinitely more popular than any television show.

• 1:10:06Speaker 01

  Yeah, but it's not all, like, most of the views on YouTube are like, guys, kids unboxing toys and, you know, guys going camp. There's, I discovered this channel the other day called Outdoor Studios, are you familiar? Or Outdoor Boys?

• 1:10:20Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah. I think he stopped doing it.

• 1:10:22Speaker 01

  He stopped doing it. I was like, this guy, he, 20 million subscribers, every video is like 90 million views. And he just was like, yeah, I don't wanna do this anymore.

• 1:10:30Joe Rogan?

  I think the popularity thing is overwhelming. And like fame, it freaks you out. And I think he probably reads the comments, unfortunately. And he was just a regular guy that's really into survival, you know, stuff.

• 1:10:43Speaker 01

  It's amazing content.

• 1:10:45Joe Rogan?

  It's really, and he seems like a really nice guy.

• 1:10:46Speaker 01

  Seems like a lovely guy. I think maybe the one thing that pushed him in that direction, just watching it, is he kinda got his family involved. So a lot of it would be like him with the kids going to places. And I imagine if you never fully signed up for 20 million subscriber fame.

• 1:11:02Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 1:11:03Speaker 01

  And you're a five-year-old, or a 10-year-old, or now you're an 18-year-old. That's a whole different ballgame.

• 1:11:09Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:11:09Speaker 01

  And that's probably extremely disconcerting and unpleasant.

• 1:11:12Joe Rogan?

  Well, I don't think that's wise. I don't think that's wise at all to do that. Yeah, I mean, when I see people getting their children involved in their television shows, I'm like, please don't do that.

• 1:11:21Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:11:21Joe Rogan?

  There's like, you didn't ask them, and they're gonna have to go to school, then deal with the consequences of it, and all the bullshit that come. I mean, it's a pretty straightforward show. The guy's just like, you know, camping in a fucking igloo. No big deal. But even then, you're still exposing yourself to schizophrenics and crazy people and the world, the whole world out there.

• 1:11:43Speaker 02

  Yeah, and also as well, number one, they can't consent because they're too young. So they don't understand actually what it means to consent to something like that, and what are gonna be the long-term implications. But also, it's just weird. It does get, it takes you a while when people come up to you and they go, oh, I feel I know you. And you go, they obviously don't, but I, as an adult, I can rationalize that. Imagine what it must be like as a kid.

• 1:12:09Joe Rogan?

  Well, that's the real problem with child stars, right? They all get fucked up. Like, I've become friends with Zac Efron lately. He's been coming to the club, very nice guy. But talks openly about it, like, just like, becoming famous when you're young, when you're really young, you're a kid, is just so fucked up for you. I liken it to when you make cement and you don't put all the ingredients in, and then it kinda forms, but you can never fix it. So it's never fully formed. And I think this is an issue with, I've met a lot of child actors that became adults, and every one of them was fucked up. Macaulay Culkin was probably the least fucked up, oddly, but he talks openly about the struggles that he's had.

• 1:12:54Speaker 01

  And what is it that makes somebody really struggle with life having been famous as a kid?

• 1:12:59Joe Rogan?

  Like, you get adored for no reason. Right, you're six and everybody loves you. You're supposed to earn that, right? You're supposed to have it from your family, and then the way you behave is supposed to dictate how people treat you in the real world. And what you're good at. So like, maybe if you're good at art, or you're good at music, people are like, Jimmy, I love how you play guitar. And then, so then people like you for that, and then you're like, you want more of that, so you work really hard. And then you go through this whole process of becoming an adult, and dating, and girls don't like you just because you're on the cover of Teenbeat. They like you because hopefully they think you're attractive looking, and then they think you're funny, or you're smart, or you're nice to them.

• 1:13:41Joe Rogan?

  And then you go on a date, and you guys jive, and it's a learning process. And you don't go through that at all when you're a nine-year-old, and you're on the set of a television show that's in your name, and then everyone around you is catering to you. Everyone's kissing your ass. Tommy, can we get you anything? Would you like a juice? Would you like anything? Like, everybody loves you. Nobody is telling you you have to do something. You have to do this, you have to do that. Nobody's punishing you, nobody's, nobody is like bullying you at school. It's like, your world is weird.

• 1:14:11Speaker 01

  And people tolerate your shitty behavior, I imagine.

• 1:14:13Joe Rogan?

  A hundred percent. You could throw temper tantrums and fucking smash windows and, I mean, that's why rock stars fucking tear apart hotel rooms. Why do they do that? Because they can! They go into that hotel room, just fucking throw a TV through the window, woo, rock and roll! I mean, it's in all these movies, right? Why do they do that? Because they're out of their fucking minds, and because there's no guardrails. And to have no guardrails as you're growing up, and to also be completely wealthy by the time you're 10, you know? And then usually, the parents are involved in some sort of a shitty scenario. Like, I have a friend who's a child actor. His parents stole money from him, and he didn't find out until he was an adult, like millions of dollars from him. And he's had like this fucked up relationship with them anyway.

• 1:14:58Joe Rogan?

  And then he found out that they were mishandling his money and stealing from him.

• 1:15:02Speaker 01

  That's gotta be so horrible.

• 1:15:03Joe Rogan?

  He suspected it though, he's like, huh, what?

• 1:15:05Speaker 01

  It's one of the things that happens when people see you being successful, and you have money, or they think you have money. Suddenly, like, all these people emerge out of everywhere who've got like these amazing ideas.

• 1:15:14Joe Rogan?

  Oh, yeah.

• 1:15:15Speaker 01

  For how to convert your money into their money. You know, there's brilliant ideas for that, right? And there's a lot of them.

• 1:15:21Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, I get confronted all the time with stupid ideas. And I just, I don't invest in anything. I'm like, that's the best way for me to just diffuse it all. Like, I'm not interested. I'm not buying that.

• 1:15:33Speaker 02

  And also, with the child star thing is, you have all of this success, which is more success than the vast majority of people will ever encounter in their life. And you're done by the time you're 16. Because you've fundamentally changed the way you look. So you've now become an adolescent with all, you know, the awkwardness and the horrificness that goes through all of our teenage years.

• 1:15:54Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:15:54Speaker 02

  Yet you look back at a time when everybody loved you, and now no one does.

• 1:15:59Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, you peak at 15. But imagine being like Tutankhamun. Became the pharaoh of Egypt at nine. Like, what? You're running Egypt? This episode is brought to you by ZipRecruiter. Believe it or not, the holiday season is here again, and that means you might need to fill some seasonal roles, fast. Maybe you need extra cashiers or stockers, or maybe something more unique, like a lead elf, or an expert gift wrapper, or a Zamboni driver. Whoever you're looking for, whatever skills you need to power through the rest of the year, ZipRecruiter is one of the best places to start your search. Because you can try it for free at ziprecruiter.com/rogan.

• 1:16:42Joe Rogan?

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• 1:17:28Joe Rogan?

  Apply now for up to $500,000 in same-day business funding at cardiff.com.

• 1:17:33Speaker 04

  Again, that's cardiff.co/rogan. Cardiff, borrow better.

• 1:17:43Joe Rogan?

  What? Huh?

• 1:17:45Speaker 01

  Yeah, he wasn't really running. It was like Joe Biden.

• 1:17:48Joe Rogan?

  Well, he was, he seemed compromised, too.

• 1:17:50Speaker 01

  That was a team, Joe. That was a team.

• 1:17:51Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:17:52Joe Rogan?

  It seemed like he might be inbred.

• 1:17:54Speaker 01

  Or Tutankhamun?

• 1:17:55Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, there was something wrong with him. He was very odd.

• 1:18:00Joe Rogan?

  Sorry, I'm choking on something. Yeah, I think, um, analysis of his, uh, bones, I think they said that he might have, he might have suffered. I think that's some speculation. People try not to be offensive when they talk about that, but obviously, inbreeding amongst royal families is not a unique thing. It's not like, what? Wait a minute, you know, like, and so the possibility that he was inbred. Here, one of the most striking things about Tutankhamun was his parentage. 2010 DNA study concluded that his parents were probably brother and sister. The researchers identify his father as most likely Pharaoh Akhenaten, and his mother as an unnamed money, as an unnamed mummy known as the younger lady, and that was probably his sister.

• 1:18:45Joe Rogan?

  The body differed from the idealized royal image. Researchers reported a club foot and damage to bones in his foot, suggesting that he had difficulty walking. Walking sticks found in his tomb support that interpretation. Uh, these are medical interpretations of ancient remains rather than a complete certain picture of his health. He became king around age nine, died around 18 or 19. Exact cause of death remains uncertain. Researchers detected malaria parasite DNA and proposed that malaria, bone problems, and a fractured leg may have contributed to not any single cause was conclusively established. Hmm.

• 1:19:25Joe Rogan?

  Apparently, um, the reason why they found his tomb versus all the other pharaoh tombs that had long been looted was that he was, uh, very disrespected and that once they, uh, buried him and they put him in his tomb, they covered it with rubble. So that no one could visit it. They were like, fuck this guy. Like, yeah, we did what we had to do, but let's just cover the whole thing with rubble. That's one of the, one of the, one of the pieces of speculation.

• 1:19:50Speaker 01

  That's so funny. There's so many guys in history who are like, I'm gonna build an empire. I'm gonna, and no one knows their name. This dude was a shit king.

• 1:19:57Joe Rogan?

  I know, shit king, nine years old, and that's the one that everybody thinks about when you think about an Egyptian pharaoh. You think about King Tut, because they found his tomb intact.

• 1:20:07Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:20:07Joe Rogan?

  So the real question is, what happened to all of those other tombs? And is, where is all that gold? Where, where are all those? I mean, if, if that guy had such an elaborate burial and he was a shit king, like, what? You know, what did, what did Ramses, what did his pharaoh, what, what did, what did that guy's burial look like?

• 1:20:29Speaker 02

  I mean,

• 1:20:29Speaker 01

  Well, it's been like 6,000 years, right? Ancient Egypt is 6,000 years ago?

• 1:20:35Joe Rogan?

  At least.

• 1:20:36Speaker 01

  At least.

• 1:20:36Joe Rogan?

  There's a lot of real weird stuff when it comes to that. Real weird, you know? There's also the, the actual king's list, the Zeptepi kings list in, in Egypt that, it's super weird because it goes back 30 plus thousand years and they want to talk about that as if it's myth. And then it gets to a certain age where it's agreed upon that this is the, the time in which these dynasties existed, that people accept. And so this is very, it's very weird stuff. And you, I think you have to really understand hieroglyphs to be able to even comment on it, so I'm not going to. But one of the weird things about it is the ages of the older people, the people from 30 plus thousand years ago.

• 1:21:18Joe Rogan?

  They're like living 200,000 years, 50,000 years. It's very odd. They reign for a long time. And that aligns with the Sumerian kings list too, which is also super fucking strange. The Sumerian kings list has the same sort of properties where you have accepted historical figures that are later that live a normal lifespan. But then when you go way, way back, you have kings that are ruling for 35,000 years.

• 1:21:46Speaker 01

  Isn't it the same in the Bible where it's all like way extended?

• 1:21:50Joe Rogan?

  Yep.

• 1:21:50Speaker 01

  So is, is that maybe just a, like, uh, language thing or like a calculation?

• 1:21:55Joe Rogan?

  It's probably a bunch of things, right? The, the real problem is you have cuneiform, right? So you have the ancient Sumerian writing. So there's not like a language issue then because you have them detailing the ages of the people that are historically accurate, where we know that they existed. The real problem is, like, what were they talking, like, in the Bible, like, when Noah was 600 years old? Well, okay, what is a year to you? Like, what does that mean?

• 1:22:21Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:22:22Joe Rogan?

  Is it every, is every season a year? Is it an actual calendar year? Do you have a Gregorian calendar? Like, what do you, what do you use it? Because they used to use a different calendar entirely in ancient history. They used to use a 13 lunar cycle calendar. So it was a 13 month calendar. It was a 28 day calendar, which is 364 days. So they would have to have a leap year every now and then. But when you think about that, that actually kind of makes more sense. Because that really does align with the cycles. But somewhere along the line, they decided to make it 12 months. And some months are 31 days and some months are 28 days. Like, what? Like, what, what happened here? Like, what? So it's like, what do you mean when you say he's 600 years old?

• 1:23:06Joe Rogan?

  You know, did you just mean he's old as fuck? You see Noah, like, that dude's like a fucking million years old. Like, you're like, how old's my dad? My dad's 150,000 years old. And, and he fucking hates this, you know, like, you know what I mean? Like, people talk in a certain, it's like the whole 72 virgins thing, right? You know, when they say you get 72 virgins when you make yourself a martyr? They don't mean the number 72. It's like saying, you know, oh, I got a million friends. It's just a lot. They're just saying a lot. It's like a substitute for a lot.

• 1:23:35Speaker 02

  You know, one of the interesting things is when, when you actually go to Egypt is genuinely how much we don't know about that, about, about their civilization, the engineering, how they constructed the pyramids. I remember I went to the temple of Abu Simbel. I don't know if you've ever seen this temple. It's huge. It's absolutely massive. And at the, there's a certain point in time during the day where there is a beam of light that comes into the temple and a light, I think it's at the altar. They, so they did that specifically. That was a choice that they made and they designed the temple for that to happen. And you go, well, how did they do that?

• 1:24:12Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, it's super sophisticated engineering. And, um, it's also

• 1:24:16Speaker 02

  That's it.

• 1:24:17Joe Rogan?

  at a scale, when, when you're dealing with how far they moved the stone, how they quarried the stone, what tools they used. There's also real clear evidence of ancient tool use. And not just tool use, but high speed drills. Um, some sort of, uh, unknown technology that seems to be able to scoop sections out of rock. Um, it looks like it was moving far quicker than what they would achieve with copper and sand and friction and all the different theories that people have proposed to how they did it. It doesn't make any sense. It doesn't make any sense and I think it's way older than they think it is. I think it's way, way, way older.

• 1:25:00Joe Rogan?

  And I think, um, one of the first, uh, people to propose that was Dr. Robert Schock from Boston University. He's a geologist. And he looked at the weathering of the, the temple where the Sphinx is carved out of. And he said, this is water erosion. Like thousands of years of water erosion has led to these deep fissures on the sides of these walls. And then the furthest back you get where you have rainfall, like heavy rainfall in the Nile Valley, you gotta go like 9,000 years. So that's 9,000 years and then you have to deal with thousands of years of rainfall to achieve that. So when was it actually built? It might be 10,000 years old, might be 12,000 years old.

• 1:25:44Joe Rogan?

  It also might be newer than some of the other stuff that's there, which is even crazier. And then you have the stuff that's underground and you go, hey.

• 1:25:53Joe Rogan?

  Like, the, the, the things that they know about, like the labyrinth that they, they've discovered, that there's these, that Herodotus wrote about, that these enormous labyrinth, as he said, was greater than the spectacle of Giza. Like, greater than the pyramids. He said underground was even more preposterous.

• 1:26:09Speaker 02

  You know, and going back to our religious conversation, I never knew this, so I went to an exhibition at the British Museum where they were talking about the ancient Greek empire took over the ancient Egyptian empire. And there was a fusion of the two. And what they had at one point was the Greeks who were living in Egypt worshipping their gods and the Egyptians worshipping their gods. And the elites then turned around and went, you know what? We've got a major problem here. If we don't actually do something to help bind society together, we're gonna have a civil war. So they artificially created gods that both sections could worship.

• 1:26:46Joe Rogan?

  Which gods?

• 1:26:47Speaker 02

  I can't remember the name of the gods, but, uh,

• 1:26:49Joe Rogan?

  They've made up some gods?

• 1:26:50Speaker 02

  They made, yeah.

• 1:26:51Joe Rogan?

  And everybody's like, oh, phew.

• 1:26:53Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:26:53Joe Rogan?

  Thank God you found the bridge.

• 1:26:55Speaker 02

  You know, and it's a kind of a genius, like, solution because you could still worship your Greek gods. They could still worship their Egyptian gods, but there was a gods in the middle that everyone could worship.

• 1:27:04Joe Rogan?

  Well, that's a age old tactic, right? I mean, this is sort of how Constantine pushed Christianity through Rome. You know, it's like, gotta bring everybody on the same page. This is, people have always done this. Whereas the Mongols had a totally different approach. Genghis Khan said, I don't give a fuck what your religion is. Come on board.

• 1:27:22Speaker 01

  Just pay taxes and don't fuck around.

• 1:27:24Joe Rogan?

  Pay taxes, don't fuck around, let's kill folks.

• 1:27:29Joe Rogan?

  He didn't care what you believed it. He didn't give a fuck.

• 1:27:32Speaker 01

  Very tolerant Genghis Khan.

• 1:27:33Joe Rogan?

  Yes, very tolerant. It's really interesting, Dan Carlin had this great take on him where he was, he was saying that if you historians today talk about Genghis Khan as like a Genghis Khan, there's a lot of positive aspects to his empire. And one of the things that he opened up trade to the east. Like, right. Also, who killed 10% of the population? Like, it's kind of crazy that one of the biggest mass murderers in the history of the human race documented is also thought about in the positive impacts that he had on civilization.

• 1:28:09Speaker 01

  Well, it's funny, I took my dad to Uzbekistan because my dad grew up in Uzbekistan and I lived in Uzbekistan for four years, so we did like a father and son trip there. When you get to Uzbekistan, you get to Tashkent, right in the heart of the city, there's this giant statue of Tamerlane, Timur the Lame. See, most people don't even know who the guy was. He was basically like a mini Genghis Khan. And they're not decolonizing that shit. They're like, this is our boy. And by the way, that dude, he was as vicious and his empire stretched as far as Constantinople on the one side, to China, to Russia, to India at one point. It just didn't last as long because he was a badass and most of his descendants were not.

• 1:28:54Speaker 01

  But he controlled this giant swathe of the Central Asian in particular. And in Samarkand, they still have his tomb. The tomb is there. And there's a story, I don't know if I told you this before, do you remember about the German invasion of the Soviet Union? Did I tell you this before?

• 1:29:12Joe Rogan?

  Maybe.

• 1:29:14Speaker 01

  Basically, Soviet archaeologists were about to open this tomb and all the locals were like, don't, don't, don't touch it, don't touch it, because on the tomb it said, whoever opens this tomb will unleash a conqueror greater than I. They opened it and the next day Hitler invaded Soviet Russia.

• 1:29:31Joe Rogan?

  Whoa. The next day?

• 1:29:36Speaker 01

  The next day.

• 1:29:37Joe Rogan?

  I think you did tell me this.

• 1:29:38Speaker 01

  Yeah, I probably did.

• 1:29:38Joe Rogan?

  That's crazy.

• 1:29:39Speaker 01

  June 22nd, 1941, Operation Barbarossa. Here's the interesting bit as well. The Battle of Stalingrad was the turning point in the war. So Soviet Union, I don't know if you remember this, but the Soviet Union was basically getting its ass kicked for the first year and a half of the war. Absolutely steamrolled, million men armies surrendering en masse, the Germans were kicking ass. They got as far as the gates of Moscow. If you go to Moscow, there's these three giant tank traps outside. That's how close the Germans came. And a lot of historians actually argue that if Hitler had taken Moscow, which he was very capable of doing, if he didn't make mistakes, that would have been it. Because Stalin stayed in Moscow.

• 1:30:22Speaker 01

  And so Stalin would have been captured, probably killed, and the Soviet Union would have lost the war. Anyway, fast forward to the Battle of Stalingrad. The archaeologists eventually thought, you know what, we've dug this up, we should have opened it. And they gave him a proper Islamic burial, put him back in the tomb, covered everything up. And the next day, that was the pivotal day in the Battle of Stalingrad. And from then on, the Soviet Union basically pushed forward and won the war.

• 1:30:47Joe Rogan?

  Simulation theory.

• 1:30:48Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:30:49Joe Rogan?

  In effect.

• 1:30:49Speaker 01

  It's insane, man. But you know what, Uzbekistan, you talk about spreading trade and stuff. It was that part of the world at that time. If you go there today, I loved going there as a tourist because it's kind of like the Muslim Rome. It's just this incredibly beautiful testament to the greatness of their civilization at one point. These beautiful madrassas, beautiful mosques, gigantic, absolutely gigantic. People are really friendly, food is amazing. It was a really cool place to go. I really liked going back there.

• 1:31:20Joe Rogan?

  Well, I think one of the things that set back the Islamic world in a huge way was Genghis Khan invading Iraq.

• 1:31:28Speaker 01

  How so?

• 1:31:28Joe Rogan?

  When he invaded, well, I don't even think it was Iraq back then, what was it?

• 1:31:32Speaker 02

  Mesopotamia.

• 1:31:33Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, so Baghdad, the Mongols took Baghdad and the river flowed red with blood, the way they describe it. They just slaughtered everybody. They knocked civilizations back to the Stone Age. There's a famous story that Dan Carlin talks about, it's one of the scariest ones, of the Shah of Kharisma sent an envoy to go to visit Jin, China. And as he's making his way to Jin, China, they see what they think is a snow-capped mountain in the distance, that as they get closer, it turns out to be a pile of bones. And that Genghis Khan had arrived before they got there and killed everyone in the town, everyone in the city, and stacked their bones on, over a million people, stacked

• 1:32:18Joe Rogan?

  their bones on top of each other.

• 1:32:21Speaker 02

  Whoa.

• 1:32:21Joe Rogan?

  And then they had abandoned their carts along the way because the roads had become so degraded from rotting human flesh. So rotting human flesh, it turned everything into mud. So there were so many dead rotting bodies in the road that they couldn't get their carts through. They couldn't get the wheels to turn through the sludge of dead humans.

• 1:32:45Speaker 01

  Maybe not that tolerant then.

• 1:32:47Joe Rogan?

  Let him open up trade to the West.

• 1:32:51Speaker 02

  You know, that's why we love interviewing historians so much on our show, because when you talk to historians, you go, oh, number one, what we're going through, like, people have been going through this since a year, dog. And you just get to understand so much more, not only about your society, but also about yourself and human nature and who we are as people. Like, you know, we always talk, oh, these are unprecedented times, nothing like this has happened before. But you go through history and you talk to a historian and I'm like, well, it's kind of similar to 823 when you look about it, because A, B, C, D, E, and F, or whatever it may be, you're going, oh, right. And that gives, there's a calmness that comes from that.

• 1:33:29Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, people have always been fucked up. Like, always. And it's, you know, I've talked about this a bunch of times, I apologize if you guys have heard it. But I've been reading this, I finished it, this Alan Watts book called The Age of Insecurity. And it's about the 1950s. And it's essentially, he's talking about how society is changing so quickly because of technology and culture shifting radically and people are so anxious. He's talking about this in 1952, I believe it was. And you read it and it applies totally today. And you realize like, oh, there's never been a time where everybody's like, life is great. And then we have this nostalgic view back to those days, go, oh, back in those days when I was a boy, the milkman came and he delivered your milk and everything was beautiful and everybody believed in God and there was no problems.

• 1:34:14Joe Rogan?

  No, there's always been problems. People have always been people. People are messy and sloppy and crazy. And they're always going to cause chaos. And as long as there have been people, there have been problems. And this is just a much more aware version of society than ever before. And maybe propagandized and maybe confused because of the internet.

• 1:34:34Speaker 01

  But also, a lot better. I mean, if you look at, we can talk about, you know, Gen Z are not as resilient and all of that shit, which is true. But also the way we're raising children now, like, when I think about the way my parents and grandparents were raised in the Soviet Union.

• 1:34:50Joe Rogan?

  Like animals.

• 1:34:50Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:34:54Speaker 01

  Like, a five-year-old did something they didn't know not to do, get a fucking beating just for that, right? And that was normal.

• 1:35:01Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:35:02Speaker 01

  Completely normal. And think how, we understand a lot more about the impact of shit like that now. And that's why we don't do it. So the world has improved in so many ways, but we are in the age of anxiety and insecurity because, I mean, you say, Francis, you know, all of this has happened before. I think AI is a different level. It's a different level of challenge to humanity.

• 1:35:27Joe Rogan?

  That's going to hypercharge everything. It's going to be very, very, very, very weird really soon. And maybe sooner than we'd like.

• 1:35:35Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:35:36Joe Rogan?

  I'm a little concerned about what might happen post-midterm. And one of the rumblings that I'm hearing is after the midterms, the United States might start attacking Iran again. I don't know if this is true or if this is just speculation, but good Lord, I hope it's not true. So I don't know what it is, but I'm really concerned because this whole Iran thing is like, we're at war, but no one talks about it anymore. It's been this stagnated thing in the media and what is going on with the Strait of Hormuz? Like, boats are getting through, but they have to be ushered, you know, they have to be guided by battleships and shit. And like, are they fighting off people all the time? I hear they are. I hear people are trying to attack these battleships all the time.

• 1:36:21Joe Rogan?

  It's like, what happens after the midterms? Because right now, if they did it right now, they'd get crushed in the midterms. And there's a lot of speculation, they're already going to lose in the midterms. So if that, if they're waiting until after that's over before they do this, things can get real ugly.

• 1:36:36Speaker 01

  Well, you got, sorry, go ahead.

• 1:36:38Speaker 02

  I was gonna say, well, you say that, I take that and I raise what's happened in the UK. Our Defence Minister came out in, when he was, a speech, I can't remember the exact context or where the speech was being held, but he was talking about how we need to start, how British people need to start stockpiling.

• 1:36:59Speaker 01

  He did say, he said three days worth of whatever, but it kind of makes sense because our infrastructure is very vulnerable and we haven't built a lot of the shit that we should have been building because we're very green and all of this other stuff.

• 1:37:11Joe Rogan?

  But isn't three days the modern version of two weeks to stop the spread?

• 1:37:15Speaker 01

  Right, right.

• 1:37:16Joe Rogan?

  You know what I mean?

• 1:37:16Speaker 01

  And, Joe, before we do, Ron, can I have a piss?

• 1:37:19Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah, we'll pause. We'll be right back, ladies and gentlemen. Um, so where were we?

• 1:37:25Speaker 01

  We were on Iran.

• 1:37:26Joe Rogan?

  Talking about Iran.

• 1:37:27Speaker 01

  Yeah. Are we back on air now or not?

• 1:37:29Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, we're back on air.

• 1:37:30Speaker 01

  Okay, cool, cool, cool. Let me just do this.

• 1:37:33Joe Rogan?

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• 1:38:13Joe Rogan?

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• 1:39:22Speaker 02

  Hey, you got Mike? Do you wanna do that?

• 1:39:23Speaker 01

  Uh, I'm already, I'm doing the triangle, I think.

• 1:39:25Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 1:39:26Joe Rogan?

  Nothing like three white guys talking about geopolitics.

• 1:39:32Speaker 01

  Why'd you have to racialize?

• 1:39:34Speaker 02

  That's gonna be one of the comments.

• 1:39:36Joe Rogan?

  You have to today. You have to today. Today it's very, is that working?

• 1:39:40Speaker 01

  No, it's, I think it's.

• 1:39:41Joe Rogan?

  Dead?

• 1:39:41Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:39:42Joe Rogan?

  I'm filling the sucker up. I'll give you this in two, two seconds. Um, geopolitics is actually, that's not really correct. When I read the original term of geopolitics, it's sort of wildly used to talk about different countries. But it's really about like resources and geology. Which makes sense. Like, what is the actual, pull that up. What is the actual original term of geopolitics?

• 1:40:10Joe Rogan?

  I'm pretty sure

• 1:40:13Joe Rogan?

  it wasn't originally about like how countries get along with each other. I think it was about resources and about like, uh,

• 1:40:24Joe Rogan?

  you know, geo.

• 1:40:25Speaker 01

  I mean, you can argue that the resources is how, about how countries interact with each other, right?

• 1:40:30Joe Rogan?

  Study of how geography.

• 1:40:31Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:40:31Joe Rogan?

  Such as a country's location, borders, natural resources, and accesses to ocean influences political power. See, we don't think about it that way. We think about it as like the relations between countries.

• 1:40:42Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:40:42Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:40:42Speaker 01

  And actually, I think we, we're living in a time where people totally forget that geography very much affects. I've got it, thanks, brother. Geography very much affects how countries behave and.

• 1:40:52Joe Rogan?

  It's the real thing.

• 1:40:53Speaker 01

  It's the real thing.

• 1:40:54Joe Rogan?

  Why we love Ukraine so much? Does it nothing to do with the fact they're on trillions of dollars in minerals?

• 1:40:59Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:40:59Joe Rogan?

  Nothing?

• 1:41:00Speaker 01

  Well, and for Russia, the reason they feel so passionate about it is, I think we've talked about this before, 80% of all the shit that matters in Russia is in the westernmost 20% of the country. So Russia always tries to expand westwards to expand its buffer zone. Uh, and that's basically what has historically happened every time they've been strong. So invading Ukraine is a kind of expected thing for them to do as well. But coming back to Iran, I mean, the geography of Iran is what this is all about. Uh, because it seems like from the conversations we've had with people, um, the administration got a little carried away here. Uh, they.

• 1:41:41Joe Rogan?

  The American administration?

• 1:41:42Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:41:42Joe Rogan?

  How dare you? Come to my country and tell us we're doing things wrong? Fuck.

• 1:41:46Speaker 01

  Ah, I'm not sure about wrong, but, um, uh, the.

• 1:41:51Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, I think they thought it was gonna be like Venezuela.

• 1:41:53Speaker 01

  That's exactly what they thought.

• 1:41:54Joe Rogan?

  This is the same mistake they made from Operation Desert Storm. You know, to, when, when we went in, in the 1990s in Iraq, it was quick and easy. Bang, bang, got it done, kick some ass. So when the 2000s came around, after 9/11, and we went back into Iraq, I don't think anybody expected it was gonna be this prolonged shit show that it became. I think the people supported it because they thought, yeah, well, they're doing it. That's how 9/11 happened. Let's go in there and kick some ass. And then it's like, oh my God, we're there 20 years later? What the fuck is this?

• 1:42:29Speaker 02

  But it's also this idea that you could bring democracy to Iraq, you know, a country that has never had democracy, that doesn't understand it.

• 1:42:36Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:42:36Speaker 02

  And even in our own countries, like the UK, it took a long time for us to get democracy. What, you think we're so special that we're gonna go over there and go, hey, guys, we got this magic system? Everyone's gonna go, yeah, that's great. And then what? We're gonna, they're all gonna live in paradise?

• 1:42:51Joe Rogan?

  Definitely, there won't be any corruption. That's really important. When a country comes in and fucking hangs your leader on television, you know, afterwards, everybody's cool.

• 1:43:01Speaker 01

  Well, this is an interesting thing with, with, with Iran, right? Because there were people, so, right, uh, last time we were here, it was right around the time that the war started.

• 1:43:11Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:43:11Speaker 01

  And then we had this guy called Robert Pape on the show. I don't know if you've seen his stuff. He's a, he's a military air power analyst. And he basically said exactly how it was gonna, how it was gonna go.

• 1:43:23Joe Rogan?

  This is before the invasion.

• 1:43:25Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah. And we just had, we, we, we just had him on just now to talk about it. And, uh, he, he calls it the escalation trap. And he talks about how effectively America trapped itself in this situation, particularly with the Strait of Hormuz. And actually, his argument is, now, look, I'm not, I can't judge whether it's true or false, but so far, everything he said to us worked out, is this has put Iran on the path to become a regional hegemon. They are now going to be in a position where they're way more powerful than they were before this conflict started.

• 1:43:56Joe Rogan?

  How so?

• 1:43:57Speaker 01

  Because they are, they have been given the legitimacy to block the Strait of Hormuz. And they are now becoming more powerful against Saudi Arabia, the UAE, who are their primary opponents, and also Israel. Uh, they control a lot of the oil, uh, and where that goes. And the Houthis as well, the problem is the Saudis have this pipeline that goes to the Red Sea. So the idea is, you don't need the Strait of Hormuz, you can go around it. But the Houthis are bombing the Shara, that pipeline right now.

• 1:44:24Joe Rogan?

  Hmm.

• 1:44:25Speaker 01

  Uh, so it's, um, it's a trap. It, it was a trap, according to his analysis. And that's why, coming back to your point, the war isn't over. And you have to find a way to resolve it. And his argument was, you gotta get out of this as quickly as possible, or it's gonna get worse and worse and worse and worse. And you see that now where Iran is in a position, they've basically got a, like, they've got, uh, the global economy in a rear naked choke. That's, that's what, that's why gas prices are what they are, that's what diesel prices are what they are. It's why, you know, Trump talks about, oh, you know, Zelensky is, it's not Zelensky bombing Russian refineries that's causing the, the diesel price to get to this point.

• 1:45:09Speaker 01

  The war in, in Ukraine's been going on for four years. But it, the price started really going up when the war in Iran started. And this is where all these problems are coming from. And Iran can do this as long as they want. It hurts them too, but his argument is they can carry on doing this because for them, it's about survival. It's like Russia in 1941. You're taking casualties, millions of people being captured, but you're, for you, this is about survival. You know, Trump's got the midterms to worry about. You know, after the midterms, he's not gonna have the House, may not have the Senate. He's gonna be up to his eyeballs in investigations, congressional committees, impeachment proceed, all of that shit.

• 1:45:51Speaker 01

  So this war is now put America in a weaker position, or its leaders. Maybe not America, but its leaders in a weaker position. That means you've got more leverage. And you can see in the rhetoric now with, like I said, the Zelensky thing and all the rest of it, there's a lot of flailing about. There's a lot of flailing about, trying desperately to get gas prices down. And Iran knows this, they're not dumb. They're watching this and going, every day that this goes on, we've got more leverage.

• 1:46:17Joe Rogan?

  Hmm.

• 1:46:17Speaker 01

  And it's in their interest to carry on that until they get the deal they want, which is get American bases out of the Middle East entirely.

• 1:46:26Joe Rogan?

  Well, they've already fucked up the American bases in the Middle East to a point where it's gonna take decades to fix them, right?

• 1:46:32Speaker 01

  Is that right?

• 1:46:33Joe Rogan?

  So we were reading, I don't know, what do I know? But they have bombed bases where American troops have, it's more than 20 of them. We pulled it up, the number the other day. It was, it's a large number. And you gotta think like, how much destruction? Like, we're, we're not seeing videos where they're detailing all the different things that happen. And from what I hear, it's pretty extensive. And the problem with this, the, this asymmetrical warfare, the problem with drone bombing, the problem with all this stuff is that it's like, regular countermeasures don't seem to work. You know, like what they figured out in Ukraine, where they're using the monofilament line to control these drones, so you can't even use anti-drone weapons.

• 1:47:16Joe Rogan?

  It's like, you're almost exposed. And so if you have an airbase and like the attack that the Ukrainians did on the Russians, where they blew up all those planes, like, that's kind of wild, that you can go in there and do billions of dollars worth of damage in one night. And it's like, this is a different world we're living in. We're not living in a world where it's just you have to launch missiles. They see the missiles come and they shoot them out of the sky with the Iron Dome. That's not the, it's not the same thing anymore. Drone technology has changed everything.

• 1:47:44Speaker 02

  One of the things that I love about our job is that we get to meet so many interesting people, either because they've been on the show or just because their friends are friends. I was talking to an ex-special forces guy. And I said to him, could we put, I said, I don't agree with this, but could we put boots on the ground in Iran? And he just laughed. He went, let's take all the politics out of it. He goes, nobody would agree to that because the terrain is so mountainous. How are you going to achieve that? It's, it's impossible. You're not gonna do that. And he, and he also said to me, and I think Robert Pape echoed this, there has never been a regime change achieved solely through airstrikes. It doesn't happen. So you go, well.

• 1:48:28Speaker 02

  How is this going to evolve? How is this going to actually evolve? Does anybody know? Is this just vibes? Is there a bigger plan? What's gonna happen? Because...

• 1:48:39Joe Rogan?

  What do you mean by is it just vibes?

• 1:48:40Speaker 02

  By vibes is like, did they actually think this through? Did they think if this actually happened, A could happen, B could happen, C could happen? And if A could happen, what's our strategy for A? If B could happen, what's our strategy for B? If C could happen, what's... Or were they just like, basically high off Venezuela? And they were like, hey, we smashed Maduro, let's go in.

• 1:49:03Joe Rogan?

  Well, it's also, how much does Trump know about how this all could possibly play out if they started bombing Iran? And what was he told?

• 1:49:12Speaker 01

  And what did he... How did he manage the information that he got? Or how did the people get access to him or not get access to him?

• 1:49:19Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 1:49:20Speaker 01

  Because that's also part of this conversation. It's the same with... This is why Vladimir Putin is four years deep into a three-day special military operation in Ukraine.

• 1:49:29Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 1:49:30Speaker 01

  Because he was told, you're gonna go in there, we're gonna get Zelensky out, we're gonna land paratroopers in Hostelmehl, land all our shit, everybody's... And the people are gonna rise up and support us. Which is exactly what they said about Iran, by the way, right?

• 1:49:43Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 1:49:44Speaker 01

  Take out the leader, the people will rise up, take over, and whatever. And it seems to be that that's not how it works. And quite often, you get these situations, from what we are told, where not all of the information is presented equally. There is not the process of deliberation that I think we'd all hope there is for decisions of this magnitude.

• 1:50:05Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 1:50:05Speaker 01

  It's more like Francis said, Venezuela went very well, we're on a roll, what's next?

• 1:50:12Joe Rogan?

  Hmm.

• 1:50:13Speaker 01

  You know? And that sounds shocking and simplistic and whatever, but that is literally what people we have spoken to, who are close to the decision-making process, have told us.

• 1:50:24Joe Rogan?

  Well, it's also very enticing, if your guy wants to leave his mark on history, to be the guy who took down the evil Iranian regime. You know? We took down Venezuela. You know, and then you can go in there and have that too, as your list of accomplishments. And if someone's blowing enough smoke up your ass, if you believe it, and we all know that Israel tried to get a bunch of different presidents to try to do the same thing. I mean, they tried to do it with the Obama administration, they tried to do it with a lot of administrations, like, why don't we do this? And they're like, eh, I don't like it.

• 1:50:59Speaker 01

  Which is, for me, that's why the ultimate responsibility rests with the people who pull the trigger, right?

• 1:51:04Joe Rogan?

  A hundred percent.

• 1:51:05Speaker 01

  Because everyone's gonna present you with all kinds of information.

• 1:51:07Joe Rogan?

  Yeah. And it's within, you know, Israel's interest to do it. I mean, they would like us to do that.

• 1:51:14Speaker 01

  Yeah. Yeah, I think that's true. And I think that's where there's a divergence between the foreign policy interests of Israel and the foreign policy interests of the United States and the world. Right? And everybody... I understand why different countries pursue their own interests, but it's the job of the American presidential administration to do what's right for America.

• 1:51:32Joe Rogan?

  Yeah. How crazy. What a wild thought.

• 1:51:35Speaker 01

  Yeah. So it's complicated, but it's having a massive impact economically across the world. And as bad as it is in the US, you are actually way more insulated from the consequences of this war than we are in the rest of the world. In Europe, I have friends who are like farmers in Australia. They are really struggling to get diesel.

• 1:51:57Joe Rogan?

  Hmm.

• 1:51:58Speaker 01

  You know? And the same with, you know, the European situation. Most countries have a lot of supply for like a year's worth. The UK has two months' worth of diesel supply.

• 1:52:09Joe Rogan?

  Oh, God.

• 1:52:10Speaker 01

  Yeah. So it's been a big problem. And the reason you say they might strike again is because what else do you do?

• 1:52:17Joe Rogan?

  Right. Do you do, do you just let it keep stagnating?

• 1:52:22Speaker 01

  Well...

• 1:52:22Joe Rogan?

  Like, what do you do?

• 1:52:23Speaker 01

  Well, you... Or you have to... I mean, I thought the best way out here was for Trump to do what Trump does, which is to sell, to sell a deal that he did with Iran. And that deal probably would have been worse than what was in place before, because you just bombed the shit out of their country, they're angry, a little bit unhappy about that. But you do a deal with them, and then you just go, this is the greatest deal ever, you know?

• 1:52:47Joe Rogan?

  Right, right, right. Yeah. That would be nice.

• 1:52:49Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:52:49Joe Rogan?

  Trump, if you're listening, that's the move. Just say you won. We'll all go with you. We just don't want this to escalate.

• 1:52:55Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:52:56Joe Rogan?

  You know? And then the narrative is always, they can't, we can't allow Iran to have a nuclear weapon. It's okay. I agree with that. Doesn't seem like it'd be a good idea to have a regime that kills their own citizens if they protest. It doesn't seem like they would be the kind of people that you would want to be able to just kill enormous groups of people with one missile.

• 1:53:16Speaker 01

  And that's really the question, because I understand that logic, which is why I understand the Israeli position, which is like, these guys wanna kill us, we can't have them have a nuclear weapon. And I understand a lot of Americans would also agree with that.

• 1:53:28Joe Rogan?

  Of course.

• 1:53:29Speaker 01

  The question is, though, was this the right strategy to achieve that outcome?

• 1:53:33Joe Rogan?

  Also, was the question, the question is, were they really capable of doing that? And were they... They definitely were enriching uranium past the point they needed for energy.

• 1:53:43Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:53:44Joe Rogan?

  Right? But they weren't at the point where they needed it for nuclear weapons. And then converting it into nuclear weapons is a completely different ballgame. Scott Horton laid that out on my podcast, and I'll butcher it if I try to repeat it. But it was pretty complex. And pretty, and he was pretty clear that they were nowhere near doing that. Also, hadn't the Ayatollah issued like a fatwa against the construction of nuclear weapons?

• 1:54:08Speaker 01

  Yeah, but the question is...

• 1:54:09Joe Rogan?

  What was that like?

• 1:54:10Speaker 01

  Well, right. How much do you trust the Ayatollah? I mean, stereotypically speaking, they don't seem to be entirely consistent in what they say. My understanding is different on the nuclear weapon thing.

• 1:54:19Speaker 02

  I mean, some things they are.

• 1:54:20Joe Rogan?

  Yeah. Beheading you for dancing.

• 1:54:24Speaker 02

  You know?

• 1:54:27Speaker 01

  Very consistent on that. But my understanding on how easy it is to get... I remember talking to my granddad, who was an astrophysicist, about this. Like, it's not that hard to get from you've got enriched material to you've got a nuclear weapon. It doesn't take that long, in today's world. The first one, that took a lot of effort with the Manhattan Project. But now that everybody knows how to do it...

• 1:54:47Joe Rogan?

  Well, this is why India and Pakistan got nuclear weapons.

• 1:54:50Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:54:50Joe Rogan?

  Right? It wasn't, they, we thought that you'd have nuclear power, great. And they're like, look what we figured out.

• 1:54:55Speaker 01

  Yeah. Miraculously. So I totally understand the concern. I haven't heard a great explanation of how this conflict was supposed to achieve that. This is why the 12th Day War made perfect sense to me. Like, you bombed their nuclear facilities, you see if you get it, that's the percentage play, right?

• 1:55:14Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 1:55:15Speaker 01

  But this just, it doesn't seem, no one ever explained how one would lead to the other.

• 1:55:22Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 1:55:22Speaker 01

  How doing this conflict this way would achieve non-nuclear Iran. In fact, it seems to me now, inevitably, if you're Iran, you do everything you can to survive, and then you do everything you possibly can to get a nuke as quickly as possible, so that this can never happen again. Right?

• 1:55:42Joe Rogan?

  Yes.

• 1:55:42Speaker 01

  If you were Iran, that's what you would do.

• 1:55:44Joe Rogan?

  Yes.

• 1:55:45Speaker 01

  So there's been a miscalculation, it feels like, to me, here. And I'm not sure that when people say, well, you've got to deal with Iran's nuclear threat, I agree with them, I'm just not sure this was the right way to do it. And it became very quickly apparent to us early on in this conflict that that was gonna be the case.

• 1:56:04Joe Rogan?

  What do you think could have been the right way to do it?

• 1:56:07Speaker 01

  If you ask Robert Pape, he says something like, you've got to have regional balancing, so you've got to strengthen Saudi Arabia and the UAE, so there's some kind of balance in the region, and no one wants to escalate the whole region to nuclear level. I don't know enough to say whether that's right or wrong. And I think that's the real big question here, is how are you supposed to get Iran to not have nuclear weapons? And maybe the truth here is, Joe, once this thing has been invented, eventually, people are gonna get it. You know, Iran is not, they're not some shitty little country in the middle of nowhere. It's a giant country which has control of a huge amount of its own natural resources, but also then, one of the biggest arteries in the world for energy and fertilizer and gas and plastic and all of that stuff.

• 1:56:52Speaker 01

  You know, maybe the reality here is that there's no way that you can maybe extend it, you can do deals, but ultimately, they are gonna get them. And that's a terrible outcome. But I haven't heard anyone convincingly explain how you avoid that.

• 1:57:09Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:57:10Speaker 02

  Yeah. And one of the things that's interesting as well is that you look at countries that have had an empire, you know, they still have this sense of pride and honor in themselves. Like, if you look at the Russians, you know, the Russians have had a great empire. You look at the Persians, I mean, you don't need to be a historian to look, and, you know, the Persian Empire was once very, very, very powerful. So there is still something in their psyche where, if they feel that they're being pushed around, it's not like a smaller country, but they're still, how dare you? This is the Persian Empire, this is where we came from, this is who we are, and we are gonna fight you.

• 1:57:45Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's 90 million people, it's a bigger country than Britain.

• 1:57:48Joe Rogan?

  That's crazy.

• 1:57:49Speaker 02

  Our empire was bigger than.

• 1:57:51Speaker 01

  That it was.

• 1:57:53Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, it's disturbing to think that this could pop off after the midterms. It really is. It's been bothering me a lot the last few days.

• 1:58:02Speaker 01

  Why does it bother you so much, Joe?

• 1:58:04Joe Rogan?

  Because I have a feeling that this preparing for, you know, having food and water is, there's a real concern. I have a feeling there's a real concern. And if the power grid does get attacked and if we, if cities do get bombed, it could get really fucking crazy in this country.

• 1:58:22Speaker 01

  I don't think Iran is in a position to do, to bomb America, though. I think that's probably.

• 1:58:27Joe Rogan?

  Well, cyber attacks with the grid, but sleeper cells. Like, we really have no idea how many people came in over the last four years and how many of them are in a terror cell. And it's, this is not right-wing speculation. You're just dealing with a number that is, it's so massive, right? So the low-end number is 10 million. That's the low end.

• 1:58:50Speaker 01

  In four years, right?

• 1:58:51Joe Rogan?

  In four years. And so some Republicans think the high end is over 20. We don't know. It's just pure speculation. There's the ones that they've counted. Secret Service cites heightened threat environment as air defense systems deployed at Mar-a-Lago and airport. This today?

• 1:59:08Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 1:59:09Joe Rogan?

  Surface-to-air missile systems have been deployed at Mar-a-Lago and Donald Trump International Airport at the request of the US Secret Service. I didn't even know there was a Donald Trump International Airport. The spokesperson said, "The agency is operating in a heightened threat environment." Right. So I think something's about to go down. And, I mean, all the, when you go super kooky, tighten up that tinfoil hat, people think that it's a false flag and that, you know, this is so we will support this and that, and I don't know. But I do know that if you keep fucking around, one day you find out. And it seems like we've been fucking around and it seems like they're telling us, "Hey, you might want to store some food in case we have to find out."

• 1:59:53Speaker 01

  What's fascinating to me is how, because we don't live in the US, so we come here a couple of times a year. We see you, we do a bunch of interviews. I remember being here two years ago on the eve of the presidential election. And everybody in Austin was like, "You guys are going to LA next? Fuck, no, no, there's gonna be riots, it's gonna be crazy. What are you doing?" And we get there, the election happens, and it was so overwhelming, because it was the presidency, the House, the Senate, the college, the electoral college, the popular vote. There was nothing in LA. Everybody was chill because, like, America voted for this. Like, that's what America did.

• 2:00:31Joe Rogan?

  Well, people were very upset, but I think one of the real issues in America when it comes to protests is they're organized and paid for.

• 2:00:38Speaker 01

  Yeah. No question.

• 2:00:40Joe Rogan?

  And there was nothing to be gained by tearing up Los Angeles after the presidential election.

• 2:00:47Speaker 01

  That's a good point.

• 2:00:48Joe Rogan?

  There, like, listen. Where's the protests about us bombing Iran?

• 2:00:55Joe Rogan?

  Where are those? If protests are organic, most people are very unhappy with us going into Iran. But where are the protests? Well, there's no one organizing and paying for those protests, so they don't exist.

• 2:01:07Speaker 01

  That's interesting.

• 2:01:08Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:01:09Speaker 01

  That's, I hadn't thought about, that is actually legitimately a very good point.

• 2:01:12Joe Rogan?

  It's so hard for people on the left to accept this, and I have friends that are very left. And I talk to them about paid protesters and they push back. And I'm like, "Listen, man, you just gotta understand. When you see those vans pull up and you see those signs come out, and those signs are already printed out in advance, and this is about an event that just happened 24 hours ago, what's the odds that someone's not paying for all this?" And then when you talk to people that actually say they are paid to protest?

• 2:01:39Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:01:39Joe Rogan?

  And there's people that show up at every protest? And those people make a living protesting?

• 2:01:45Speaker 01

  It's a career now.

• 2:01:45Joe Rogan?

  This is a career. This is a real job. If you're a ne'er-do-well and you're also like, you know, sort of peripherally political, like, "Yeah, man, fuck the fascists." Like, you can, you don't have to work. You could just go to protest and scream and yell, and they give you a sign. And now you have a job.

• 2:02:02Speaker 01

  And it's a great place to meet girls, which I imagine is.

• 2:02:04Joe Rogan?

  I'll bet.

• 2:02:04Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah, not for the long term.

• 2:02:07Joe Rogan?

  I actually saw a lady.

• 2:02:09Speaker 02

  They're gonna be a little unstable, you know what I mean?

• 2:02:12Speaker 01

  If you're into mental instability, then.

• 2:02:13Joe Rogan?

  Who isn't? But, what is this, Jamie?

• 2:02:17Speaker 04

  I just Googled protest about it, and there was an article in Reuters about.

• 2:02:20Joe Rogan?

  About the bombing in Iran?

• 2:02:21Speaker 04

  Yeah, lots of protests, lots of people died in other countries about it.

• 2:02:24Joe Rogan?

  Right, but in America.

• 2:02:25Speaker 04

  Yeah, 145 different cities.

• 2:02:27Joe Rogan?

  Right, what kind of demonstrations did they have? I didn't see any of them. I certainly didn't see them on the news.

• 2:02:32Speaker 01

  No.

• 2:02:33Joe Rogan?

  Were they small demonstrations? Like, how many people were in these demonstrations?

• 2:02:37Speaker 01

  You had a map there, Jamie? Would you mind scrolling back up?

• 2:02:39Speaker 04

  Well, there's maps on this about a bunch of stuff.

• 2:02:41Speaker 01

  Oh, right, right, right.

• 2:02:43Joe Rogan?

  But it's interesting, okay, so there's ones with big signs that were printed out in advance, clearly. Like, look at all the signs. All uniform. Like, who got, who made the signs? How'd you get them? United States flag upside down.

• 2:02:59Joe Rogan?

  That's interesting. So I was wrong. It just hasn't been in the news. I haven't seen it like the No Kings protests were huge.

• 2:03:05Speaker 01

  Well, this is your point, it's about scale, right? Like, you're not seeing it overwhelm the country in the same way like you had in 2020, for example.

• 2:03:11Joe Rogan?

  Right, right.

• 2:03:12Speaker 01

  That's, but coming back to my point about going to LA two years ago, I remember the mood. We had Rob Schneider on the show, like, the day after the election. He was like really happy. The mood was different. And I just wonder, in an alternative reality, if Trump does Venezuela and then doesn't do this, or does Cuba next, and it's like Venezuela. And it's just like you lock down your hemisphere, you get the easy wins. It's a whole different legacy.

• 2:03:42Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 2:03:43Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:03:44Speaker 01

  You know?

• 2:03:45Speaker 02

  It's basically Blair without Iraq.

• 2:03:47Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I don't know how much sense that'll make to Americans, but it's, it's like, you came in, you closed the border, because you've got to give credit where it's due.

• 2:03:55Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 2:03:55Speaker 01

  He's closed the border.

• 2:03:56Joe Rogan?

  Right. It was the Iran decision that fucked everything.

• 2:03:59Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:03:59Speaker 02

  Yeah, totally.

• 2:04:00Joe Rogan?

  Because even the ICE stuff, look, most people in this country don't like the idea of a militarized police force with no identification, just pulling people over. It opens up a world of problems. It sets terrible precedents, and this is what people that are pro ICE don't seem to understand. They could use that in another way. Now we've set a precedent. You're allowed to have a militarized police force with masks on and they don't have any identification. And they're snatching up people, and some of them happen to be American citizens. Like, if you're supporting this, "I gotta crack a few eggs to make an omelet." Okay, well, you just opened up the fucking hen house and now the chickens are running all over the place. Like, you could do whatever you want now.

• 2:04:42Joe Rogan?

  If you're allowing that, and that's normalized in society, that's not good. But on this, at the same point, you do have a bunch of very dangerous criminals. The Tren do Aragua people, there's a lot of different gangs that have gotten in and they're setting up illegal activities and kidnappings and all kinds of shit. Cartel violence inside American borders. That's real, too. So, like, support of ICE to go after that is pretty strong.

• 2:05:07Speaker 02

  But it's also, as well, what it does to your democratic process. Because one of people, part of Trump's appeal, as we all know, is that he marketed himself as the outsider. "I'm not part of the political system."

• 2:05:19Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 2:05:20Speaker 02

  "You're gonna get a radically different presidency with me. I'm not gonna be the other ones." And one of the promises was, here you go, Joe.

• 2:05:27Joe Rogan?

  No, I've got one.

• 2:05:28Speaker 02

  Uh, one of the promises was, like, "No forever wars. We're not gonna go around, we're not gonna do these wars. I'm gonna put America first. It's gonna prioritize American people because we've got real issues in this country that we need to sort out." And the problem is, when you do Iran, what you say to people is, it's just more of the same. It doesn't matter who you vote for, you're still gonna get these types of wars. And so what happens is that people then feel more and more disenfranchised, that they're not connected, that it doesn't matter who they vote for, you're undermining democracy.

• 2:06:04Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 2:06:05Speaker 02

  And that's a really dangerous place to be, because once people feel that democracy doesn't represent them, then they start disengaging. And again, it goes back to that argument about vacuums. That power vacuum still needs to be filled. And then you have people going, "Well, what we actually need is a king, or what we really need is to do our own thing." And that's how the fractures appear within society.

• 2:06:29Joe Rogan?

  You got those weird kids today that think we should burn it all down and start from scratch. It's like, okay, "Show me your plan." What's your fucking plan? What's your burn-it-all-down, like, long-range strategy?

• 2:06:42Speaker 01

  Well, that's why I always, look, I'm not a historian, but it's something I've always thought about. I think calling the American Revolution a revolution is inaccurate, and that leads to a lot of confusion, because it wasn't a revolution. To me, a revolution is when you overthrow the existing regime in your country, right? The Russian Revolution.

• 2:07:02Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 2:07:02Speaker 01

  You have the Tsar, and then the Bolsheviks come in, they overthrow the Tsar, they install a new government, right? In the French Revolution, you have a monarchy. The revolutionaries come in, they execute the aristocracy and the king, they institute a new government. The American Revolution is really a war of independence. It's you guys saying, "We're gonna separate away, and in our part of the world, we're gonna have our own government. You guys do whatever you want." So, America was not actually created in a revolution. It's just people seeking independence. It's like if Scotland broke off from the United Kingdom, right? And that, I think, changes their mentality, because revolutions actually usually end very badly.

• 2:07:44Speaker 01

  It's a very bad thing that happens. They're very violent, lots of people get killed. The people who did the revolution usually get killed off first. Then they kill off the people who came, this is what Stalin did. I mean, his purges were just about, you know, you've, the revolution has happened, and now you've got all of these psychotic revolutionaries who don't know how to build anything. They just want to tear everything down, because that's what revolutionaries do. And now we've got to get rid of them. The revolutions are generally not the sort of thing you want to be around for when they happen. And so, yeah, the tear it all down thing, that doesn't appeal to me at all.

• 2:08:21Joe Rogan?

  Well, it's just young kids that are saying this. It's like, this is. These are the young Democrat socialists and Marxists. They want to tear it all down. It's a great message that resonates without actually having thought it through. It's like, you see that guy's pissing you off, go punch him in the face. Okay. What if he punches you back? What if his friends show up? You know, what if, what if there's a guy in a car across the street who sees it and he grabs you and throws you into traffic? Like, there's a lot that can hap- let's play this out. Let's think this through. If you fucking destroy America, what, what takes its place? Where does the money go? Where does your money go? Where, who takes care of the streets?

• 2:09:01Speaker 02

  You know, and I always say to these people who are like, you know, I'm a socialist. I'm go, you ever talked to a Cuban? Talk to a Cuban.

• 2:09:08Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 2:09:09Speaker 02

  Talk to a Venezuelan. Talk to a Russian. Talk to a Russian. If it, or talk to anybody from Eastern Europe.

• 2:09:14Joe Rogan?

  Anybody who's really experienced actual communism. They're not fond of it.

• 2:09:18Speaker 02

  No, no, they're not. I remember I used to go to the coffee shop when I was doing, when I was writing for stand-up. And I, I got a, um, I had a, I got to know a guy who ran the coffee shop. He was a Cuban guy. And we used to talk about communism all the time. You know, it's, it's one way to pass the day. And he actually said something to me. He goes, and I, cause I was getting very frustrated at this point that around about 2018, 2019, this, the talk of socialism came back. And it was very triggering to me on a personal level. And, and I was very upset and I was saying to him, he was getting really frustrated. And it was, and I said to him, like, how, how do I, how, how do you fight this? And he goes, you can't.

• 2:10:03Speaker 02

  And I go, what do you mean? He goes, look, Francis, you know, when you argue with somebody from the West who has grown up surrounded by this, and you're saying about communism, they can't understand it. They can't comprehend it. It's like saying to a really rich kid, look, don't walk down that alley. Don't walk down it at night, cause something's bad gonna happen to you. He goes, the only way they will ever truly understand is if they walk down the alley, they get hit on the back of their head. They feel the taste of blood in their mouth. That's when they get it. Until then, I hate to break it to you, but you're fighting a losing bout. And I'm talking as someone who grew up in Cuba, whose most of their family is Cuban, and have tried this time and time again.

• 2:10:46Speaker 02

  There is a part of me that is slightly fatalistic that goes, sometimes people need to see the mistakes for themselves.

• 2:10:53Joe Rogan?

  You have to fall down. You have to hurt your knees to realize like, oh, don't do that. This episode is brought to you by Chime. And I know people don't usually get excited about banking, but Chime is doing something different and it's worth paying attention to. In a recent survey, they ranked the number one choice for new checking accounts in America. That means real people, millions of them are choosing this over traditional banks. That's because banking at Chime is fee-free. No monthly fees, no overdraft fees, and thousands of fee-free ATMs. But here's the real kicker. If you get their Chime card, it gives you 5% cash back on a category you actually pick yourself. Your savings rate, crazy high. It's nine times the national average.

• 2:11:38Joe Rogan?

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• 2:12:23Joe Rogan?

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• 2:12:38Speaker 01

  I also think we have to be honest and say that there is a thing going on in a lot of Western societies where if you had assets in 2006, before the great financial crash, you've done very well for the last 20 years. But if you didn't, your ability to buy a house, to pay off your student loans, all of that, it's become more difficult. And it's, it's why that portion of society who feel that they've been locked out, are feeling like they don't have a stake because they don't have a stake in society. And that's when this kind of thing happens. And I think that's something people, people on the right, and people like us who, who, I mean, I, I think communism is the most evil ideology that's ever been tried, just numerically speaking.

• 2:13:23Speaker 01

  It's a fact, right? But you have to make sure that it's not looking after people, cause what we do in Britain, we just go, here's a handout. You know, you don't need to work, just here's some money, shut the fuck up, right? That doesn't work. But what you have to do is make sure that society feels fair to everybody, or to as great a number of people as possible, and that there's opportunity to advance. And for our generation, we are in our early 40s now. For our generation, I'll be, like Joe, if, if we hadn't started trigonometry and haven't had the amazing success that we've had, that we're so grateful for,

• 2:13:58Speaker 01

  we'd be in that same boat. We'd be in the exactly same boat. And we'd be struggling now going like, this thing? It doesn't work anymore. And I think that's where a lot of this stuff is coming from. So

• 2:14:10Joe Rogan?

  Yes.

• 2:14:10Speaker 01

  It's, it's one, it's one of the things that I think people in the AI world don't really think about enough. What happens when, even if we don't, if, even if we accept that actually in the long run, jobs aren't gonna all disappear and like all technology, you create new jobs with it and all blah. In the interim, it's gonna get very disruptive. And in that time, I really think Andrew Yang was on to something. When he talked about the need to find a way, yes, you're creating all this beautiful wealth. These five companies are creating all the wealth. But you've got to find a way that the rest of society feels like they, they've got a shot as well. They've got an opportunity.

• 2:14:52Speaker 01

  And unless we do that, I think this path down to where a lot of people feel really locked out and angry and frustrated and betrayed, I think that, that it's understandable that they feel that.

• 2:15:04Joe Rogan?

  It's totally understandable. That's why the movie The Joker resonated so well.

• 2:15:07Speaker 02

  Yeah. Yeah, it was. It was. And I always say this, it's like, society is basically a game. And, you know, you follow the rules, you do what you have to do and you will get the rewards at the end of it. The problem is, is if, for young people, which is very, very true, they feel they're not getting the rewards and everybody else is. And they're working just as hard, if not harder than everyone else. Eventually they're gonna go, you know what? Fuck your game.

• 2:15:35Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 2:15:35Speaker 02

  And the board goes up in the air. And that's, I think, what we're seeing with young people.

• 2:15:39Joe Rogan?

  Sure. That's why they cheered when Luigi shot that United Healthcare guy.

• 2:15:43Speaker 01

  And that's crazy to me, but that's where it's coming from.

• 2:15:46Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 2:15:47Speaker 01

  You know, that's crazy.

• 2:15:47Joe Rogan?

  It makes sense. And it's also, that's the narrative that's being promoted in universities. You know, that kind of thinking, that revolutionary thinking, making it sexy.

• 2:15:56Speaker 01

  Yeah. Yeah. And so when you, when you combine that and also the other things they've been taught for generations now is to hate their own society. It's history, it's culture. You put all that together, it's a dangerous mix.

• 2:16:06Joe Rogan?

  Fun times.

• 2:16:07Speaker 01

  So, but, but I really think that there is a way to address it.

• 2:16:12Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 2:16:12Speaker 01

  Which is that we have to think, this is coming. People are locked out. How do we make sure they are included again?

• 2:16:22Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, well, the, if you ask the AI people, it's gonna get super weird. Cause the universal high income thing that you, that you hear Elon talk about, that would be that every citizen in the United States would have a stake in artificial intelligence. And that you would get, just like if you live in Alaska, you get money from the oil companies. You get a check. People, maybe people don't know this, but if you live in Alaska, you just, you get a check. And

• 2:16:53Speaker 01

  When? When you're born or?

• 2:16:54Joe Rogan?

  No, you get like

• 2:16:55Speaker 01

  Just every, every month?

• 2:16:56Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, you get a, you get an income.

• 2:16:58Speaker 01

  Wow.

• 2:16:58Joe Rogan?

  Let's find out how many people in Alaska get it and what's the parameters. You know, if you live on Native American reservations, like they get checks. If you're Native American, you know, you can get a check if you're a part of a tribe that has a casino. You know, you get a piece of the casino. And this is kind of what's going on with the United States when it comes to the consequences of AI. And taking over automation, taking over jobs, taking over shipping, taking over commercial truck driving. You already see it all over to Austin. You see these Waymos and Cybercabs. It's kind of nuts. I mean, I see as many of them sometimes as I do regular cars. They're, it's really nuts how many Waymos you see.

• 2:17:42Joe Rogan?

  So those jobs are gone. They're, they're taking jobs. And this is just the beginning of the storm. These are the first raindrops of the storm that is the consequences of AI completely taking over every aspect of society. Which it'll probably do and do much better than what humans do. Then this becomes a problem of your identity. Like, how, do you think of yourself as a person who works? And you, are you proud of that? Is that, that who you are? You know, you're, you're proud to be useful and you're, you know, you get great satisfaction out of your occupation. If all of a sudden your occupation is automated and you don't exist anymore. Massive amounts of depression, massive amounts of drug addiction. And then you just give them a check. I don't know if that's gonna be enough.

• 2:18:24Speaker 01

  Well, to your point about Native American reservations, from what I understand, the kind of social outcomes of that are not great.

• 2:18:30Joe Rogan?

  So here it is, uh, no, not, well, the Native American one's particularly bleak, but we can get into that. Alaska pays eligible residents an annual dividend called the Permanent Fund Dividend. For 2026, it's $1,200 per eligible person, including a $200 energy relief payment. So it's 1,400 bucks a year. That's not much.

• 2:18:50Speaker 01

  No much.

• 2:18:50Joe Rogan?

  Um, but it's a little something. Per, what's that J? Oh, per eligible person.

• 2:18:56Joe Rogan?

  Oh, oh, sorry. Includes a two hundred, including a $200 energy relief payment. So it's just 1,200 bucks.

• 2:19:04Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:19:04Joe Rogan?

  Um, so if there's two people in your household that are eligible, like two, well, how many, how old do you have to be to be eligible? Who receives it? Um, do you have to, is it a certain age?

• 2:19:18Joe Rogan?

  There's an age requirement, or is it all citizens, or is it like voting citizens? Either way, um, it's not enough.

• 2:19:27Speaker 01

  No.

• 2:19:28Joe Rogan?

  Um, now, the, the real question is, when you're dealing with AI and this infinite amount of wealth it's gonna generate, how much is enough? You know, when, when Elon says universal high income, what are we talking about here? Like, what, what does that mean? Are you, are you saying you're gonna give everybody $500,000 a year? I'm not, I'm on board. Okay, so then what happens?

• 2:19:49Speaker 01

  Are you, Joe? This, cause this is the flip side of this conversation, which is, you mentioned the Native American situation. So you know yourself.

• 2:19:59Speaker 01

  You take a lot of meaning from the things that you do. So just getting money.

• 2:20:06Joe Rogan?

  It's a Dire Straits song.

• 2:20:07Speaker 02

  Money for nothing, yeah.

• 2:20:09Joe Rogan?

  And the chicks for free.

• 2:20:11Speaker 01

  I'm not sure they have, although with AI girlfriends, maybe you're gonna get the chicks.

• 2:20:14Joe Rogan?

  They were talking about it. They were talking about guys complaining about people on MTV.

• 2:20:19Speaker 01

  Right, right, right.

• 2:20:20Joe Rogan?

  That wasn't really what the song was about.

• 2:20:21Speaker 01

  But I guess, I think what I'm saying is, there's a difference from saying, hey, I'm, um, you know, Mark, or I am Elon, or I am Sam, and I've taken your job, and I am Elon, I'm Mark, I'm Sam, I've taken your job, here's $10,000 a month. There's a big difference there.

• 2:20:36Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 2:20:36Speaker 01

  And, and unless that problem, unless we as a society work out a way to do that,

• 2:20:44Speaker 01

  you don't have to be a genius to work out that's not a recipe for a stable, healthy society.

• 2:20:49Speaker 02

  So I'll, I'll give you an, I'll give you an example of something. So when I was teaching, I taught a kid, he was very low ability. He really struggled academically. So we, I gave him work which was, you know, which was less challenging than other kids. Sometimes he would be okay, sometimes he would play up, cause he understandably had self-esteem issues. One day, he was playing up really, really badly. And I said, Chris, look, you're gonna be in detention. And I wanted to, I, I never believed in just detention, getting kids to be bored. I wanted him to be useful. And I was giving him what I thought was a punishment. I said, Chris, you see all the pencils in the classroom? Every single pencil? I'm talking about colored pencils. I'm talking about ordinary,

• 2:21:33Speaker 02

  I want them sharpened, and I want them perfect, cause we've got an art lesson after lunch. He went and did it. And when he brought the pencils back to me, he was so happy, he was so proud of himself.

• 2:21:45Joe Rogan?

  Cause he felt useful.

• 2:21:46Speaker 02

  Cause he felt useful. And he said, and I saw a side of him that I'd never seen before, because finally, he got given a job that he could do, he could do to a very high standard, and he was useful and part of something. And he said something to me that actually, it kinda teared me up. He went, can I come back tomorrow and do more?

• 2:22:05Joe Rogan?

  Hmm, so he felt good. He felt good that he was useful. And I think most people do.

• 2:22:11Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:22:11Joe Rogan?

  The real question is, is it possible to teach people differently in school? So instead of teaching people facts that they need to memorize, and having to sit in a chair, and making sure that you're doing everything that you're told, cause someday you're gonna have to have a job, and that's, you're gonna have to learn how to behave this way. Is it possible that you could teach people, listen, money is not the problem anymore. Resources in terms of like your ability to feed yourself and put a roof over your head, that's not an issue anymore. Now, your life is about pursuing your interests. But we have to teach people that from the jump. We have to teach people that from the time they're very young. The older people that are set in their ways, they're gonna have a very difficult time changing and adapting. But, and then also,

• 2:22:56Joe Rogan?

  people are gonna have a very hard time having the same kind of motivation that people have when they grow up poor. That's a superpower. Growing up poor is a superpower, because it gives you a motivation, like a drive, that I don't think you get if you're a trust fund kid, and your parents are worth a lot of money. So we're gonna have to teach people to have internal motivation, instead of external motivation. And we're gonna have to teach people that there is a great benefit to, to doing things that you don't want to do, and then seeing the result. To, you know, just putting off any sort of enjoyment that you might possibly have in the present time, so that you can have more enjoyment in the future, because you did that, you sacrificed, and you figured something out. But we have to teach them how to, that, that

• 2:23:41Joe Rogan?

  way of thinking. If you could teach them that, listen, man, you don't have to worry about money anymore, but that doesn't mean you don't have to worry about life. Like, there's a lot of cool things that you can find, that you can do with your life. But now do those things, and get a sense of purpose from you learning about yourself while you're pursuing whatever it is. Whether it's becoming an author, or whether it's, you know, whatever, making things, whatever it is. Find a thing that you like, and then teach people how to find the thing that interests them, rather than finding just some menial bullshit job that's gonna keep them depressed, and just barely pay their bills.

• 2:24:17Speaker 01

  I noticed this with my son. The thing he loves to do with me the most is like, paint the fence. To him, that's like the happiest time that we have together.

• 2:24:25Joe Rogan?

  See progress.

• 2:24:26Speaker 01

  We, we, we go and do something together that he feels is valuable, he's learning, he's doing it with me, obviously, you know, father and son time as well. But, but he would much rather paint a fence with me than he would play a game. Much rather.

• 2:24:40Joe Rogan?

  Interesting.

• 2:24:40Speaker 01

  It's more, it's more meaningful for him.

• 2:24:42Joe Rogan?

  Right, he's accomplishing something. Yeah.

• 2:24:44Speaker 01

  And learning a skill, and like you said, you know?

• 2:24:47Joe Rogan?

  There's stuff that people can do. We have only been doing this thing, this show up at a job, and, and doing, working in an office, and going to a city. This is super fucking recent in human history. It's one of the reasons why subsistence tribes are so much happier than us. Because we've been doing that forever. And the human reward systems are structured in a way that like, if you hunt and fish and grow your own food, that's normal. Like, you're, you've, you have very little anxiety. That's that, the great Werner Herzog documentary, Happy People. You know, that documentary about the people that live in Siberia?

• 2:25:22Speaker 01

  Tell me about it.

• 2:25:23Joe Rogan?

  Oh, it's called Happy People: Life in the Taiga. And it's all about these fishermen, and trappers, and hunters that live in Siberia, that have like no mental illness. They're all just happy. And they live a completely subsistence lifestyle, in one of the most brutal climates on earth. Fucking Siberia. And, you know, and they, they're fine. They're having a good time. We're fucked up, and we think, oh my god, I could never have lived like that. But you're not happy. But they are happy. What is our goal? Is our goal to be happy? Because this thing that we've created, these jobs in, in corporations, and in cubicles, and this thing that is normal for us, is not really normal for us. And we've kinda decided somewhere along

• 2:26:05Joe Rogan?

  the way that this is the only way. That you have to have a job, but without a job, what do we do? What about the idea that something that the human race has created, no longer makes it necessary for you to do a job anymore? Now, instead of worrying about huntering, hunting and gathering food, the next stage of being a human is pursuing interests. I mean, it could be a gigantic explosion of creativity, and of innovation, and art, and who knows what people can do, especially with the access to technology that we have today, and all the different things that people can, we could, we're just assuming, that this way that we live that sucks, that

• 2:26:45Joe Rogan?

  everybody hates, is the only way to live. And I just don't buy that. I mean, clearly I'm biased, because clearly I went through all those processes of being poor, and struggling, and figuring out a way in life, and then trying a bunch of very difficult things that other people avoided, and finding a path. But I don't know if that's the only way to live. And I don't think it is. I think there's a, a competitive drive in people that exist no matter what. And if we're not competing over finances anymore, maybe we'll compete over art, or accomplishments, or creativity, or fill in the blank, like whatever you decide to pursue. And of course,

• 2:27:26Joe Rogan?

  you're probably going to make more money doing that on top of the money you already get. It's not like we're gonna go into a full communist state where the entire population only get $500,000 a year. We take from the billionaires, we distribute evenly. No, that's not what we're saying. We're saying like, you start out with the 500,000, whatever it is, I don't know what the number's gonna be. Start out with that, and then you can still make money on top of that if you want. But do you have the drive to live a special life? To live a fulfilled and interesting life?

• 2:27:56Speaker 02

  Well, there's, there's a soccer player, former soccer player called Danny Drinkwater, and he, uh,

• 2:28:00Joe Rogan?

  That's a great name.

• 2:28:01Speaker 02

  Yeah, it is a great name. He won the Premier League with Leicester City, which is a very, very small team. It was one of the biggest surprises in football, that no one ever predicted that this team would win. And he went on to have an amazing career. And towards the end of his career, he was struggling, he became, he was struggling with alcohol. And then, all these pictures started to emerge of him after he finished his career on a building site. And people were taking the piss out of him, going, ah, look how far Danny's fallen. He was a Premier League champion, now he's working on a building site. And he, there was an interview where he was like, I love my life. I'm training to be an electrician. I love doing this. I get a sense of achievement out of it. I get the same camaraderie that I got in the dressing

• 2:28:45Speaker 02

  room with the boys, on the, on the building site. I'm actually happy. This is what I wanna do. Because he realized that he still needed something.

• 2:28:55Joe Rogan?

  Mm-hmm.

• 2:28:55Speaker 02

  He still needed to achieve something. But because in our own kind of fucked up way, we see playing elite sport as somehow less than building something?

• 2:29:07Speaker 02

  That it's lesser than, but he's actually found the purpose by doing that.

• 2:29:11Joe Rogan?

  Well, it's interesting that you would never go up to someone who's working as an electrician. Go, who are you fucking loser working as an electrician? But if that person had been a movie star and then, you know, stopped doing movies and said, I think I'd rather be an electrician. Then you're allowed to talk shit about them, but it's just shitty humans. Are one of the biggest problems we have is we're not teaching people how to think. Or not, I don't wanna say teaching people how to think, but informing them on the more beneficial ways to construct your life through thoughts. And instead, we're allowing these stupid kind of be like that kind of like tear them all down behavior to go unchecked.

• 2:29:53Joe Rogan?

  Like you really, you know how transparently pathetically jealous that is to wanna go up to a guy who is like an elite soccer player? And you're upset because he has a job that's like yours? You know how fucking nuts that is? That's nuts.

• 2:30:05Speaker 01

  It's a status thing, I think. We had this great guy on called Will Stork. He wrote a book called The Status Game. Are you familiar with it?

• 2:30:11Joe Rogan?

  Yes.

• 2:30:11Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:30:12Joe Rogan?

  Yes.

• 2:30:12Speaker 01

  This is the, this is, the reason people do this, I think, is it's a status thing. So Premier League footballer, high status, electrician, low status. And also, let's be honest, if you haven't got to where you've got to, where you wanted to in life, and you haven't got the status that you want. Kind of satisfying for some people to see someone else fall down.

• 2:30:35Joe Rogan?

  Oh, yeah.

• 2:30:36Speaker 01

  And then you go, oh, I'm not the only one.

• 2:30:38Joe Rogan?

  Sure.

• 2:30:39Speaker 01

  It's actually one of the things I do really like about America. You have a kind of failure is just the step to the next success attitude here. A lot of people have that here, so it's very normal for people to start a business, business doesn't work, they start the next one, doesn't work, start the next one, it pops. And actually, I was seeing stats, I can't remember where I got it, so I hope this isn't BS, maybe Jamie can check, but I think with every business you start and fail, it increases your chance of succeeding. Well, not it increases, but if you start, by the time you start the third business, your, your chance of that business being successful is significantly higher than the first one.

• 2:31:13Joe Rogan?

  I think this is Elizabeth Holmes' strategy when she gets out of here.

• 2:31:18Joe Rogan?

  By the way, her husband lives in town, lives in Austin, so we, we might be seeing her at the mothership one day.

• 2:31:29Speaker 02

  But I, I think it's a really important thing that, and I think we should all do, we should, we should all talk about our failures more because it's part of the journey.

• 2:31:39Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 2:31:39Speaker 02

  You know, if, success isn't as sweet when you get it first time round because you don't appreciate it. But if you fail and fail and fail again, and finally something works, you, number one, what that teaches you is gratitude. Number two is it shows other people, oh shit, if he's failed and failed and failed and then made it, maybe I can do that. Maybe not in the same field, but maybe my journey is going to be like that in a different way.

• 2:32:08Joe Rogan?

  It's one of the main things that I think a lot of people can get out of jujitsu, other than self-defense, is that everybody starts out terrible. You, you, you, I mean, you have a little bit of an advantage if you're strong, you know, you have a little bit of an advantage if you've maybe done some other martial art before, but not much. I mean, even me, I, I'd started out, I had years of Taekwondo and kickboxing and all, I got mauled, just mauled. I mean, I was, it was so humiliating, but humbling in a great way where I was like, wow, I had no idea. I was that vulnerable. I was walking around all delusional, thinking that shit's not gonna work on me. He might work great.

• 2:32:49Joe Rogan?

  But everybody who you train with, if they stick it out, you see them growing and getting better. And we all, you, you all go on this path together where then all of a sudden, I've seen guys that they started out, they were terrible. And then a couple of years later, I see them rolling with the new guys and manhandling them. I goes, this is amazing. Like, look at this guy. Like now he's like tapping people out that are new. And then you see the look in, in his face like, why, I can, this is real. I learned, I got better at something that I thought was impossible. In the beginning, you're so, the mountain is so high, like fuck, you take one step, you fall down, you're like, this is terrible. And for a lot of people, their self-esteem can't handle it and they never go through that process.

• 2:33:34Joe Rogan?

  But if you could force yourself to go through that process, it's one of the very best processes of a failure. And then learning from failure, and then you get a little bit better, and then more failure, and then learning, and then a little bit, and you keep going. And you realize like, oh, this is a journey. And along this journey, I can apply these same principles to essentially anything in my life and get better. Just even about just being a human, just better at being a human, realizing the dumb shit that you do that sabotages your life or fucks up your diet or gets you drinking again, whatever it is, you can apply the same strategy that you learned to get good at jujitsu to anything in life.

• 2:34:13Speaker 02

  You know, I remember when I was, this is nearly 10 years ago, I was opening for Eddie Izzard on his European tour. And I remember people go to me like, who's like one of your biggest influences? And Eddie was that person because when Eddie started out doing comedy in London, way back when, like late eighties, early nineties. You know what his nickname was on the circuit?

• 2:34:37Joe Rogan?

  What?

• 2:34:37Speaker 02

  No laughs Eddie.

• 2:34:40Speaker 02

  That's what it was. Like he would come on and everyone's like, oh my God, it's this guy. Oh, fuck.

• 2:34:47Joe Rogan?

  Was that before or after he started dressing like a chick?

• 2:34:50Speaker 02

  That was before.

• 2:34:51Joe Rogan?

  So did the dressing like the chick turn it all around?

• 2:34:53Speaker 02

  Not, no, I think what actually turned it around is that he was just, and when I spoke to him, he was like, look, I was relentlessly driven and focused. I knew that this was what I wanted to do. I knew that this is what I wanted to achieve. And what was happening is that at the beginning, it wasn't working for me. So I needed to change in order to get to where I wanted to go.

• 2:35:16Joe Rogan?

  But I know he likes dressing like a woman, so maybe that legitimately helps. I love that guy, but it's weird because he is a guy, like I think now, maybe he's changed. But he told me he likes women and I'm like, cool. You know, like he came on the podcast, he was great. I've, I've done a couple of podcasts with him. But the point is like, that is what he enjoys doing and to stop him from doing that in the past, maybe allowed him to be freer on stage, which allowed him to be better on stage. Cause it is a journey of self-discovery. We try to figure out what is it about your act that doesn't work? What is it about this that the people are not buying? Like, and maybe that was a part of it for him.

• 2:35:53Speaker 02

  Maybe it was a part, but he was also trying to do something radically different at the time that nobody else was doing. But once he nailed it, he kind of, he just exploded for him. But I always remember that lesson that I took from him, which was you've got to go through the shit. You have to. That's just part of the process. And you've also as much as possible not gonna take it personally because you've got to accept that this is what life is teaching you. If you wanna do that, you've got to take the hits and you've got to accept failure. Most of life is failure. Most of the time you do things, it's not gonna work out in quite the way you want. But then you take the lessons from it and then you move on and it's gradual. It's not like, we all wanna be the guy who steps on stage, gets on a soccer field, touches the ball.

• 2:36:37Speaker 02

  Everyone goes, wow, what a genius. Ninety nine point nine nine nine nine nine percent of us ain't like that.

• 2:36:44Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, and even the one percent of prob, the, the point, whatever it is, one percent, they're not either. It's all bullshit. It's a hundred percent. There's like, some people have a better start than others, but everybody has to learn and grow along the way. And it's interesting with Eddie, like he applied that same sort of grinding strategy to a lot of the crazy physical feats that he did. Like when he ran around the entire UK and he didn't train for it. Have you seen that documentary?

• 2:37:12Speaker 01

  No, no, I remember the story.

• 2:37:14Joe Rogan?

  Fucking insane. It was one of the most impressive things I've ever seen because literally the skin on his feet were falling off. Like he had to take a couple of days off. He's running a marathon a day with no training. And he had to take some days off because his feet were so destroyed, he couldn't stand on them. Never, forget about running 26 miles. I mean, you're seeing the raw, open skin. It's horrible. And he's got a doctor or a nurse tending to his wounds. It's terrible. I mean, just like raw, torn apart feet. Next day, 26 miles, took a day off, maybe a two, maybe two days off. And the entire time he did it was nuts. And so it's like that same thing, like just keep going, you can do it.

• 2:37:57Joe Rogan?

  And in this TikTok generation where everybody wants everything to happen really quickly, you wanna be an influencer, you wanna get famous, you wanna get this, you wanna get that. I don't wanna get fat. Oh, take a pill, bang, you know, whatever it is, or Ozempic, there's, there's desire to have something happen to you very quickly. Versus the satisfaction that you get from knowing like the jujitsu mountain, like, look, I started down there. I started down there. Now I'm all the way the fuck up here.

• 2:38:21Speaker 01

  Right. And that process is just makes you into the person you're actually supposed to be.

• 2:38:26Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 2:38:27Speaker 01

  It's, it's the process that makes you into the person you're supposed to be.

• 2:38:30Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, and anything difficult.

• 2:38:31Speaker 01

  We often, we often talk about this, you know, with our show, because sometimes we're, we're doing interviews with people where like, this is a serious thing that we're doing here. It's a serious person, this is gonna be big, it's important, we get it right. If you had catapulted us when we started the show into the position of interviewing that person, we wouldn't know what the fuck to do and we would screw it up very badly.

• 2:38:51Joe Rogan?

  Oh, for sure.

• 2:38:52Speaker 01

  It's the process that gets you to the point where you're actually able to have a conversation on a high level. And it's different things. Sometimes it's about being prepared to challenge people, call out certain facts. Sometimes it's just about like, the conversation is dying out a little bit, where do we go to? All of that stuff you learn along the way. And if you haven't got the miles on the clock up till that point, being parachuted into that position. This is why it's actually probably very, very hard to like start a TV show and get the right talent or whatever, because they haven't got the miles on the clock to actually be able to do the job. And it's that process that gives you the ability to actually perform at a high level. Because you've been there, you fucked up, you've made mistakes, you've learned from

• 2:39:37Speaker 01

  them, you've grown as a person, you've become more humble. The process of doing stuff humbles you, like you said, because

• 2:39:42Joe Rogan?

  No doubt.

• 2:39:43Speaker 01

  You go, oh, wait, I had this idea and it totally didn't work. Maybe I need to revise how I think about this. And I think life is just this one long lesson in what you talked about, which is deferred gratification. I'm gonna give up pleasure or comfort. And comfort's the big one, Joe, it's not even pleasure, is it?

• 2:39:59Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 2:40:00Speaker 01

  It's comfort. That's what kills you. You get comfortable, and it's a lot more comfortable to sit at home on the sofa. It's terrible for you, but it's comfortable. And it's overcoming that and learning to get out of your comfort zone. Like, all the good stuff, it's on the other side of that.

• 2:40:15Joe Rogan?

  That's gonna be the real problem with giving people universal high income.

• 2:40:18Speaker 01

  Right.

• 2:40:19Joe Rogan?

  Is that like, people don't like to just leave comfort. And they're not gonna wanna do anything other than just take the money that they get and then, I don't know, party.

• 2:40:29Speaker 01

  I think so. But I also think, we've all been, I don't know, we've never talked about it, but I imagine there's been times when your life, in your life, when you've gone down that route. You've taken some time to just veg, you know? And you do it for a bit, and it, you know, you play a video game for a week nonstop and you're just immersed in that and whatever. And then you realize it sucks.

• 2:40:54Joe Rogan?

  Mm-hmm.

• 2:40:55Speaker 01

  Like, the first day you do it is kind of fun, the second day is fun, but eventually you get to the point where you realize this sucks. And I think with having this universal high income or universal basic income or whatever, people will get to the point where they go, actually, this has been fun. It's like partying. A lot of people spend their, you know, twenties doing that. Eventually you grow out of it. Ninety-nine percent of people do.

• 2:41:19Joe Rogan?

  Hopefully.

• 2:41:20Speaker 01

  You've met a lot of people who haven't grown out of it.

• 2:41:23Joe Rogan?

  Oh, yeah. Yeah, yeah. Well, especially me, because I know a lot of comedians that are basically like forty-five year old boys.

• 2:41:30Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:41:31Joe Rogan?

  Because especially if you don't have any responsibility other than getting on stage at night, you know, comics have the most open-ended schedules and a lot of them have zero discipline. And they don't have to. They could play video games all day. They work at our comedy club for a weekend, they make enough money to pay their bills for a month. They don't have to worry. And so they just, they're childlike and they just drink at night and fucking eat terrible food and play video games.

• 2:41:56Speaker 01

  Do they eventually, though, get married and have kids and settle down?

• 2:41:59Joe Rogan?

  Some of them do. Yeah, some of them don't.

• 2:42:01Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:42:02Joe Rogan?

  It's a weird, like, sort of frozen adolescence.

• 2:42:04Speaker 01

  I think once you get to the kids thing, and we see it with, you know, people that work with us, you start, you get a serious girlfriend, suddenly the attitude shifts, they get a little bit more serious.

• 2:42:14Joe Rogan?

  Children's the big one.

• 2:42:15Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:42:16Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, it just lets you go, oh, oh, boy, I have to take care of a tiny little person. Like, this is not the same fun and games anymore.

• 2:42:21Speaker 01

  And set an example.

• 2:42:22Joe Rogan?

  Yes.

• 2:42:23Speaker 01

  Because they don't learn from what you tell them, they learn from what they see.

• 2:42:25Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 2:42:26Speaker 01

  And so if daddy's sitting on the sofa, what are they learning?

• 2:42:28Joe Rogan?

  Well, hopefully, the world will learn, right, in that regard? Like, so if universal income becomes a thing, well, I think there's a lot of pros that come out of it. And here's the pros. Starvation ends, goes away. The lack of food ends, goes away. The struggling to pay your bills ends. So all that stress ends. So how much crime do we lose because of that? I bet we lose a lot. I bet there's a long transitional period because people have been ingrained to certain types of behaviors and actions and they have personality flaws they've developed over the years, but once society settles into the concept, I bet crime radically gets reduced.

• 2:43:09Speaker 01

  You mean like acquisitive crime, stealing?

• 2:43:11Joe Rogan?

  Necessity, yeah. Because they're, I mean, like, you know, the silly one was the AOC one, where they're, you know, stealing stuff from stores, they just eat bread for their family, like, right.

• 2:43:21Speaker 01

  That's why they've got the Lacoste trainers.

• 2:43:23Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, right. No, that's not necessarily what's going on, right? But once society settles, and then there's not a haves and haves-not situation at the same extreme that we have today. Because the extreme that we have today, not as much in this country, because it's kind of thought of as the land of opportunity, but there's a lot of countries where like, if you don't have, you will never have, and this is just how it goes. If that becomes something that's adopted and employed by all nations, is that the amount of wealth it generates is so fucking extreme, that, and jobs are gone, and that people now have money, but you never have to worry about working. So the fear and the anger at least gets significantly mitigated.

• 2:44:07Speaker 02

  I mean, that's the hope. That's the real hope.

• 2:44:12Joe Rogan?

  And if they just wanna play Call of Duty all day, like, who fucking cares? As long as they like their life. It's like, but, you know, it's like, we need to train people to enjoy their life and not think that your life is just a thing you do that sucks so you can make money, so that you can buy stuff, so it makes you feel good about doing the thing that you do that sucks. And then one day, you die.

• 2:44:33Speaker 01

  The encouraging thing about human beings is I think we are very adaptable.

• 2:44:38Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 2:44:39Speaker 01

  We are very adaptable.

• 2:44:40Joe Rogan?

  Yes.

• 2:44:41Speaker 01

  And I think the things that matter to us are the things that have always mattered to us. It's family, it's human connection, it's meaningful work.

• 2:44:48Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 2:44:49Speaker 01

  Or meaningful activity, at least. It might not be work, it might just be activity, you know? I love chopping wood to, I'd like, I could buy wood, but I don't. I buy wood that I have to chop, because I like chopping the wood. You know what I mean? I like, and I like doing it with my son, and I like teaching him how to do it. I could pay a guy to paint the fence. I could pay a guy to paint the wall, but if there's little things that I can do with him, or I can do myself, I actually prefer to do that. And I think it's a, it's actually, so we will, I think we will find a way to adapt, because it's what we've always done. That's, that's, I think, the big hope. But I do think the transition is gonna be a big challenge.

• 2:45:27Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 2:45:28Speaker 01

  And I think, I really hope the people who are doing this AI stuff think about this a lot. I, I think it's gonna be them who's gonna have to think about this a lot. And if I were them, I'd be thinking, how do I give as much of this away as I can so that everybody feels included in this thing?

• 2:45:47Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 2:45:48Speaker 01

  Otherwise, there's not enough robot defenders in the world who are gonna guard your mansion.

• 2:45:53Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 2:45:54Speaker 01

  Is, is what, how I think about it. And, yeah, I think we'll get to that. I think people will realize that's the reality of this.

• 2:46:00Joe Rogan?

  I hope so.

• 2:46:01Speaker 02

  Do you know what always gives me hope? Is that when, every time I taught Greek mythology to the kids, and we did The Odyssey, everybody got locked in. And I taught in a place where most kids were first or second generation immigrants, they didn't have shared culture, vastly different experiences, some of whom were incredibly poor, but you taught, like, The Odyssey, boom, they were all locked in. And why is that so special? It's so special because it talks about the human condition. It talks about struggle, it talks about overcoming. And I think one of the things, particularly nowadays, is we all think we're so incredibly different. Yet when Christopher Nolan does a retread of The Odyssey and puts it on the big screen, people flock.

• 2:46:46Speaker 02

  And I, people talk about, oh, it's an anti-woke movie, or it's this, or it's that. No, because it's a story about a man confronting his own demons and overcoming them, and the importance of family. And I think we, that's a really important bit. That's a really important bit. The things that, as Constance says, that matters have always mattered. And this idea that we're more divided than ever and that we hate each other, we've got to believe that we can overcome that. We really do. Because if we just see each other as an enemy or as an avatar, we're never going to be able to transcend. But if we see the humanity in each other, and actually, left, right, most people just want a fairer, better world.

• 2:47:31Speaker 02

  We've just got different ways of approaching it.

• 2:47:33Joe Rogan?

  Here, here. And on that note.

• 2:47:36Speaker 01

  We solved everything, Joe.

• 2:47:37Joe Rogan?

  We solved it all.

• 2:47:38Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:47:39Joe Rogan?

  Francis Foster for president.

• 2:47:40Speaker 02

  No, you don't want that, Charlie.

• 2:47:43Speaker 01

  Joe, we were ending on such a nice thought, and you had to ruin it.

• 2:47:46Speaker 02

  Cut to me getting executed.

• 2:47:50Joe Rogan?

  It's always fun talking to you guys. I really appreciate it. Love your show. You guys are cool as fuck. It's always fun.

• 2:47:55Speaker 01

  Great to see you, brother.

• 2:47:56Speaker 02

  It's always a pleasure, mate.

• 2:47:58Joe Rogan?

  Bye, buddy.

• 2:47:59Speaker 02

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