Jocko Underground: The Dangers and Protocol of Carrying A Gun in An Altercation.

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Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Jocko Willink?

  This is the Jocko Underground Podcast, number 214. Sitting here with Echo Charles. We have questions from the field and we have, we have some answers. We have some recommendations. At a minimum, we have some courses of actions you can pursue to get you through the maze of life that Echo likes to talk about.

• 0:18Speaker 01

  It's true, pal. It's true.

• 0:21Jocko Willink?

  Jack, let's get into it.

• 0:22Speaker 01

  All right, first question. Okay, I carry and I'm also a brown belt in jujitsu. Thankfully, I never found myself in a physical altercation on the street as an adult. But I do wonder if having a gun while getting into a fighting scenario would be a good thing. What if the perp grabs it or it falls out or something while we're tied up? I feel very confident in my jujitsu in the street. Sometimes I feel like if I had to use the jujitsu while carrying, the gun would be a liability. What are your thoughts on this?

• 0:53Jocko Willink?

  First thought is don't get in any street fights. The second thought is have a good retention holster, right? That you have worked with and that keeps your weapon. So it's not, you know, quote unquote, falling out or something when you're in a fight. Practice and drill and spar with your retention holster and normal clothes. So you see what the situation is. Don't get into street fights. Practice de-escalation, avoid problematic areas, walk away for some reason. Don't get into street fights.

• 1:29Jocko Willink?

  What if the perp grabs it? What if the perp has a knife?

• 1:33Jocko Willink?

  You know, then what are we doing? What if the perp has a gun? Then what are we doing? So it's kind of a weird what if. You're giving a worst case scenario to your own self, but not a worst case to the world, not a worst case scenario to the rest of the entire world, right? Train so that you're ready and then don't get in any street fights. So you can see that the trend here is don't get in any street fights. Especially when you're carrying. Why are you getting into a street fight when you're carrying? That's, you know, again, somebody's got to grab a hold of you. Otherwise, just run away from them. And if they have a gun, kill them. Like if somebody pulls a gun on you, right? You gotta kill them. Someone pulls a knife on you, you gotta kill them.

• 2:17Jocko Willink?

  If they're just like saying, hey, or they push you, cool, walk away from them.

• 2:23Jocko Willink?

  That's it, man. Train with it. And I think you also this kind of a fear of the unknown. Go and put your, you know, put your clothes on, put your street clothes on, put your retention holster on, wherever it is you carry. And then go and train with it and see what it's like. And also make sure you can still access it, right? You want to be able to like get in a, you don't want to get into a ground, into a ground fighting situation. Where now you're getting beat, which you shouldn't do if you're a brown bone jujitsu. But if you are, and all of a sudden you don't know how to get to your weapon.

• 2:55Jocko Willink?

  Or you're in a grappling situation, all of a sudden guy pulls out a knife and you can't, you don't know how to get to your weapon. You haven't rehearsed it before. You haven't trained it before. So do some, do some training so that you're ready for that. What is it like to reach inside your waistband? What is it like to whatever, whatever type of carry you do? What is it like to get that butt pack open? Right? What, I don't know what was it? What is you? You got the appendix carry? What's it like to get in there? So figure that out. And train with it. And you should be good to go. That's what I got.

• 3:29Speaker 01

  Yeah, that's interesting. The deal. So it's like more of a comprehensive approach to everything. Rather than, hey, should you have your gun or should you not have your gun if you're getting into a fight with somebody kind of a thing?

• 3:40Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 3:41Speaker 01

  It's kind of like, hey, let's back up even more than that and be like, wait, just like I said, like, why are you getting into fights? See what I'm saying? When you don't have to. Yeah, yeah, it does seem more cut and dry. Actually, I know a guy, I don't know if you know him, he's a black belt and he, uh, we were, he was at my house. Yeah, he was at my house. We were talking, whatever. And he has, you know, you know, you have a knife, like a, not a weapon knife, but you know.

• 4:05Jocko Willink?

  Little spider gun or whatever.

• 4:06Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, a little knife. And I was like, for whatever reason, we talked about kind of a similar kind of thing. And he was like, you know, sometimes I feel like I should just chuck this knife, like if you were to get into a fight with somebody or whatever, I feel like I should just chuck this knife over the, over the fence before I get into it because it's like, what I'm going to do, like stab him, you know, I'm assuming that this imaginary scenario we're talking about, the other person does not have a weapon. So it's like, it's not like I'm going to stab him. So it's like, now I just run the risk of him get grabbing it at some point. I was like, oh yeah, that's true.

• 4:41Jocko Willink?

  That's a better argument than the gun one?

• 4:45Jocko Willink?

  Um, but also if someone pulls a knife on you and but and you go, cool, I have a knife too. This is still a really shitty situation.

• 4:54Speaker 01

  Yeah, I agree.

• 4:54Jocko Willink?

  It's like you're getting into a power slap scenario where we're like you're getting cut.

• 4:59Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 4:59Jocko Willink?

  It's like when you do power slap, you're getting slapped in the face hard and getting probably KO'd.

• 5:03Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 5:04Jocko Willink?

  If you someone pulls a knife on you and you go, oh, that's okay. I have a knife too. This is a bad, bad, bad situation.

• 5:10Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah.

• 5:11Jocko Willink?

  Bad situation. So that's why we're carrying a gun. We're not carrying a knife. Primary. It's not our primary weapon. Like, okay, you get a backup and you get a terrible situation and you you have to pull your knife out. Okay, but damn dude, this is a it's it's rough. It's a rough one.

• 5:30Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 5:32Jocko Willink?

  So.

• 5:32Speaker 01

  I um, my son is nine. So we play these, you know, we have these big Sharpie pens, you know, the permanent markers, the big ones. So I'm like, we'll knife fight with that, right?

• 5:42Jocko Willink?

  For sure.

• 5:42Speaker 01

  And yeah, you'd be saying he's nine.

• 5:44Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 5:44Speaker 01

  He's still slicing me up.

• 5:45Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 5:46Speaker 01

  You know, I'm slicing him worse.

• 5:47Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, of course.

• 5:48Speaker 01

  I'm just way more skilled than that compared to him, but nonetheless, I'm getting sliced up.

• 5:52Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 5:52Speaker 01

  On my arms or whatever. And then if you do, if you just do the math, like what if? And sometimes we look at little cuts, right? It's like superficial cuts. It was no, no, no. If you have a knife, a for real knife, and you're in a for real fight, that that's gonna cut deep. So I remember like I'm looking at my arms. I'm like, if this cut deep, I couldn't use my, it would cut my tendons.

• 6:10Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 6:10Speaker 01

  You see what I'm saying?

• 6:10Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 6:11Speaker 01

  Like you especially in an adult.

• 6:12Jocko Willink?

  And there's whole training protocol with knives, which you are not, you know, you're not trying to do the stab to the heart.

• 6:20Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 6:20Jocko Willink?

  You're just trying to cut their arms, cut what's exposed, cut their arms and they're bleeding out nonetheless.

• 6:27Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 6:27Jocko Willink?

  You know, you get, you get, you catch an artery or a vein.

• 6:30Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 6:31Jocko Willink?

  You know, you're bleeding out and everyone's seen that out that I think it was in Australia where the dude just pulled out a knife, stabbed the guy in the neck. He just falls down. He's dead in a minute.

• 6:38Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 6:38Jocko Willink?

  Just boom, game over.

• 6:40Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 6:41Jocko Willink?

  So, yeah, so so when someone pulls out a knife.

• 6:44Speaker 01

  Yeah, knife fight's not.

• 6:45Jocko Willink?

  Not knife fight, knife fight is not. It's kind of like uh in jujitsu, like the fifty fifty position. You know what I mean?

• 6:53Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 6:54Jocko Willink?

  If you pull out a knife and I pull out a knife. It's yeah, it's just bad. You're getting, you're getting, you're getting cut.

• 7:00Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 7:01Jocko Willink?

  You're getting cut. So avoid.

• 7:04Speaker 01

  Avoid.

• 7:04Jocko Willink?

  Shoot them.

• 7:05Speaker 01

  Yeah, that uh that that comprehensive approach with a gun is.

• 7:09Jocko Willink?

  And train and train for it and know where it is, you know, like you, you gotta, you gotta get in the game.

• 7:14Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 7:14Jocko Willink?

  Just don't be carrying. Without having worked through these situations. It's not a good move. Train. I could just put you, all you gotta do is, look, in the beginning, you'll probably do it for, spend three days with a couple of your buddies.

• 7:28Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 7:29Jocko Willink?

  And spend three days, two or three hours a day with your gear on, with your street clothes on, with your jeans, with your holster. Get your holster all fitted good, get it where you want it, where you think you want it, try it out, adjust it, try it out, adjust it. And then like, maybe like once a month. Go, go through those drills again and make sure you're good to go.

• 7:48Speaker 01

  Yeah, for that familiarity, familiarity. Let me ask you this. It's a hypothetical question for Jocko. Actually, I'm not gonna put your use specifically, but let's say a brown belt person. Versus a guy, for whatever reason, they have to fight each other versus the guy with the gun. But the gun, the guy with the gun. Really doesn't want to use his gun. He doesn't want to kill the guy, right? They're just fighting. Do you think the brown belt guy? Could get to the gun?

• 8:20Jocko Willink?

  Well, the guy doesn't want to shoot him. Yeah.

• 8:22Speaker 01

  Yeah. So that's what, yeah, so that's kind of what I mean. It seems like easy question, but that's kind of what I'm saying where. A guy, okay, what if they were both brown belts?

• 8:31Jocko Willink?

  That's.

• 8:32Speaker 01

  The gun's a liability? If he didn't really want to use it.

• 8:35Jocko Willink?

  I don't know, because at a certain point, he's gonna want to use it.

• 8:39Speaker 01

  Yeah, against a guy with no.

• 8:40Jocko Willink?

  I don't understand. It's hard for me to comprehend the, he doesn't want to use it. What does that even mean?

• 8:44Speaker 01

  Because, okay, so actually, I'm trying to recreate the maybe a scenario that maybe that this guy's worried about. So like. You know, if, let's say you're carrying, right? And you get into a fight with somebody and let's say the guy you're fighting is kind of a badass guy, like equally to you, you know? You can't just be like, hey, I'm losing this fight, kind of, so I'm gonna shoot him, you know?

• 9:02Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 9:03Speaker 01

  You can't really do that.

• 9:05Jocko Willink?

  Maybe sometimes you can't apparently. No, no, unless that guy now is gonna kill me. Right, right. So we get into a fistfight and he, he whatever knocks me out, gets the mount and punches me in the head three times and stands up and goes, "Don't ever mess with me again," and starts walking away. Yes. I can't shoot that dude. Just lost, yeah. Yeah, but if he's punching me, punching me, punching me.

• 9:30Jocko Willink?

  That is a little excerpt of what we are doing on the Jocko Underground Podcast. So if you want to continue to listen, go to jockounderground.com and subscribe. And we're doing this to mitigate our reliance on external platforms. So we are not subject to their control. And we are doing this so that we can support the Jocko Podcast, which will remain as is, free for all, as long as we can keep it that way. But we are doing this so we don't have to be under the control of sponsors. And we're doing it so we can give you more control, more interaction, more direct connections, better communications with us. And to do that, we are, we're building a website right now

• 10:13Jocko Willink?

  where we'll be able to utilize to strengthen this legion of troopers that are in the game with us. So thank you, it's jockounderground.com. It costs $8.18 a month. And if you can't afford to support us, we can still support you. Just email [email protected] and we'll get you taken care of. Until then, we will see you mobilized underground.