How to Get Cancelled in Ancient Judea

What do we know about Jesus? Kate is joined for this episode by Professor of Christian Origins, Helen Bond, to find out more about the historical record for the events of the New Testament, why Jesus was persecuted, and who by. Helen is Professor of Christian Origins at the University of Edinburgh, and co-hosts the Biblical Time Machine Podcast. This episode was edited by Hannah Feodorov. The producer was Sophie Gee. The senior producer was Freddy Chick. Sign up to History Hit for hundreds of hours of original documentaries, with a new release every week and ad-free podcasts. Sign up at https://www.historyhit.com/subscribe. You can take part in our listener surveyhere https://www.surveymonkey.co.uk/r/6FFT7MK. All music from Epidemic Sounds. Betwixt the Sheets: History of Sex, Scandal & Society is a History Hit podcast. Voting is now open for the Listener's Choice Award at this year's Podcast Awards! UK & Ireland listeners please place your vote on the Spotify mobile app here: https://open.spotify.com/s/xhg6PJa Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy https://acast.com/privacy for more information.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Kate Lister?

  Do you want even more shocking and scandalous history? Like why the ancient Greek statues had such small manhoods? Or what went on behind closed doors in the Georgian era? Well, sign up to History Hit, where you can see me discover the scandalous side of history, as well as hundreds of hours of original documentaries, plus new releases every week, covering everything from prehistoric Scotland to the Treaty of Versailles. Sign up to join me in locations around the world and explore the past. Just visit historyhit.com/subscribe.

• 0:35Kate Lister?

  Hello, my lovely betwixters! It's me, Kate Lister. Welcome back once again to Betwixt the Sheets. Hello! How fabulous to see your fabulous selves. Do come in and take a seat. But before we go any further together, I do have to tell you again, and I will continue to tell you between now and the time that the show eventually gets cancelled, this is an adult podcast, spoken by adults to other adults about adulty things in an adulty way, covering a range of adult subjects and you should be an adult too. Right, proceed at your own caution, you have been warned.

• 1:07Kate Lister?

  Between the sounds of bleating sheep, cooing doves, shouting salesmen and coins hitting wooden tables, you'd have thought I'd have taken you to a marketplace. And I wouldn't blame you for thinking that. This place even has food stalls. But this is not a marketplace. This is a temple, and none other than the Second Temple, Jerusalem. And do you know what I heard? I heard that there was quite the commotion yesterday. Well, yesterday in the first century. As if the sounds and smells and heat aren't overwhelming enough, a crowd of people turned up, laying their cloaks on the path ahead of a mounted man, and started shouting about his greatness. And as if that kind of drama wasn't enough in Passover week, then this guy, this great

• 1:52Kate Lister?

  guy, this guy that some people are calling King of the Jews, then he started flipping over market tables, shouting and screaming about thieves and thievery. Honestly, it was a whole scene. I don't know who he was, but frankly, he sounds like a troublemaker to me.

• 2:31Kate Lister?

  Hello and welcome back to Betwixt the Sheet, the history of sex scandal in society, with me, Kate Lister. What do we mean when we say get cancelled today? That is a very modern vernacular, isn't it? We all know what we mean, but people weren't talking about being cancelled in the past. Although, as we're about to discover, they most certainly were. For the purposes of the next few episodes, we are defining being cancelled as being pretty unanimously rejected from society. Being cancelled is when everyone turns their back on you and goes, no, thank you very much, sling your ruck, get out of here. And although Christianity has had quite the success story in the intervening years,

• 3:12Kate Lister?

  it's safe to say that Jesus Christ wasn't always the most popular fellow. So what did he do to end up on the wrong side of the leaders in ancient Judea? Why were people so resistant to his message about just being nice to each other? In other words, how did the establishment try to cancel Jesus? Today, I'm joined by Helen Bond, Professor of Christian Origins at the University of Edinburgh. And if anyone can help us answer these questions, it's her. Are you ready to do this? Well, so am I.

• 3:51Kate Lister?

  Well, hello and welcome to Betwixt the Sheet. It's only Professor Helen Bond. How are you doing?

• 3:58Speaker 01

  I'm doing really well, thank you.

• 3:59Kate Lister?

  Thank you so much for joining us. This is the first in our new little mini-series of how to get cancelled. And we've gone for how to get cancelled in Judea. Because it just occurred to me that, obviously, I know the story about the crucifixion of Christ, of course I do, but I don't actually know the details of it. And I'm fascinated to know more about it. And you are a professor of Christian origins at the University of Edinburgh. So you are the ideal person to talk to.

• 4:28Speaker 01

  Yes, Jesus is my thing.

• 4:30Kate Lister?

  He's your boy. Can I ask, how did you come to study this as a discipline? What's your, what's your historian origin story?

• 4:37Speaker 01

  Oh, well, I, I mean, the big story is I was always going to do maths at university. And then I decided I didn't like mechanics that much, but I was doing religion at, at school. And I just found that really fascinating. It was just so much more interesting. And I like the kind of the puzzles in, in religion, you know, particularly to do with the gospels. Who's copying off who? Because there's this sort of literary relationship between them. And strange as it may seem, that, that was kind of what got me into it. And, and I just, I just loved, I always loved, um, you know, the Egyptians and the Babylonians and all of these guys. I love those sort of the coffee table books. And, um, so that doing, doing sort of Christian origins just seemed to kind of tick all the boxes for me.

• 5:20Kate Lister?

  That's your passion. That's what you love to do.

• 5:22Speaker 01

  And you get to do Greek and things like that.

• 5:24Kate Lister?

  So I guess as a starter question, this is probably the big one. It just even sounded like a starter question. Was Jesus Christ, Jesus of Nazareth, a real person?

• 5:36Speaker 01

  Yes, I think there's pretty good evidence that he was. I know there's kind of a lot of people nowadays saying, oh, he's just a myth. But actually, I mean, given that he's a peasant, you know, he's a sort of a rural artisan. He's a carpenter. Most people from that kind of status level wouldn't leave any record whatsoever. So the fact that we've got letters from Paul, St. Paul, from 20 years after his death, is quite a big issue. And Paul, Paul knows Jesus's family. He knows Jesus's disciples. You know, there's plenty of people still around 20 years later to say, what are you on about, Paul? You know, you're making all this up. So I think that's pretty good. So even if the gospels, the earliest gospel might be about 40 years after the time of Jesus,

• 6:21Speaker 01

  you know, I think it's still within lifetimes of people, even ancient people. So, um.

• 6:27Kate Lister?

  That is within lifetime. I'm just thinking about like, like there's way more historical heft is placed on other sources, like, like writing about the Roman emperors. Often what we know about them was written a long time. After they died, and this was forty years, that's that's next to nothing from somebody that knew it.

• 6:45Speaker 01

  Yeah, I mean, twenty years in the in the case of Paul's letters. So I mean, people sometimes say, yeah, but they're insiders, you know, they were all in on it, they're all making it up. But that's that just seems too too complex, too sort of, you know, I mean, it it just doesn't doesn't make any sense, I think. It's more far more easy just to believe that there was a person and, you know, that there might have been changes to to what people were believing in him later on. But I think, you know, at the basis of it, that there was a genuine person called Jesus from Nazareth.

• 7:18Kate Lister?

  And it's not just Paul, is it? It's corroborated in other sources as well.

• 7:22Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah. I mean, so so you get the Gospels and then, you know, other other New Testament writings. And the Jewish writer, Jewish author Josephus, he mentions Jesus. And he does this great long sort of history of the Jews, and he mentions Jesus in writing in around about ninety three or so. And then you start to get Romans writing about Jesus in the early second century. So all of that is pretty early, really.

• 7:47Kate Lister?

  And he's in the Quran. He pops up there, doesn't he?

• 7:52Speaker 01

  Yes, that's right. That's right. In fact, there's there's more references to Mary in the Quran than there are in the New Testament. So, yeah, the two of them are quite big.

• 8:01Kate Lister?

  So what do we know historically about who this person might have been? Because we've got people writing about him, they knew him and they they are sort of religious followers of him. But like as an actual person, you you said there that that what we know about him, we think is that he was, you said a peasant, like a carpenter, a poor person. Where do we think he was born? When do we think he was born? Probably not in a stable.

• 8:27Speaker 01

  Probably not. I mean, yeah, yeah, because the things about, I mean, only two Gospels have birth stories, Matthew and Luke. They're they're two of our later ones. They're probably written in the later first century. And it's just a thing, you know, ancient biography, you start your story with with a great birth. Great men need a great birth. And and the birth stories are full of theology and, you know. Really trying to to show people in picture language who Jesus was. So I think the whole thing about Jesus being born in Bethlehem is to show that he's he's this is a town associated with King David. So the idea is to show he's the second King David. He's of the royal line. He's the Messiah line.

• 9:10Speaker 01

  So it's all of those things. And and the stable actually only appears in Luke's Gospel. And the idea there, I think, is that Jesus has come for the poor and marginalized and he himself was sort of, you know, rejected and impoverished at his birth. So so, yeah, I I think, you know, there's a lot going on in those birth stories. Probably Jesus came from this small, very small village of Nazareth. It's in Galilee. It's not too far away from other big towns, but people there seem to be quite insular, quite rural. His family have a trade, they're carpenters, probably a fairly large family. And yeah, they're Jewish, they're Jewish, yeah. And and everything about Jesus fits into that sort of first century Jewish kind of matrix.

• 9:53Speaker 01

  So probably born around about this year zero, not that we have zero, but you know.

• 9:58Kate Lister?

  That was lucky.

• 9:58Speaker 01

  And and died around about thirty, thirty three, something like that.

• 10:03Kate Lister?

  And he had a brother called Simon. That's one of my favorite Jesus facts.

• 10:06Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 10:08Kate Lister?

  Oh, no, no, Helen, you're gonna tell me that's wrong. I love that fact.

• 10:12Speaker 01

  Well, he had a few brothers. I mean, his main brother was was called James. He sort of kept the the movement going after Jesus. But he has a few brothers and they're they're listed in in the New Testament too, and a couple of sisters. But we're not given the names of those, unfortunately. Yeah, because, you know, who cares about the women?

• 10:29Kate Lister?

  Right, exactly. So he'd have been, he was born Jewish, he's born poor. Do we know anything about where he grows up? Or or do we just have like what what's mentioned in the Gospels? Because we do kind of have this like missing bit of like he's he's born and then, you know, and there's miracles attributed to that. And then he kind of reappears, sort of like fully grown man of, you know, with with some pretty out there, wacky ideas about people being nice to each other.

• 10:55Speaker 01

  Yeah, basically, he just sort of emerges fully grown around about thirty. Luke's Gospel says, and the first thing we know about him is that he seems to be a follower of John the Baptist. Now, John the Baptist seems to have been a bigger deal in his day than Jesus was.

• 11:10Kate Lister?

  Interesting.

• 11:11Speaker 01

  Josephus again mentions him. He actually quite approves of John the Baptist. John the Baptist seems to be, I mean, he's got this thing that he baptizes people. He wants them to repent, get themselves ready. Basically, he's saying the end of the world is coming. God is gonna come. Get yourself ready. Baptism is a sign of that. And just, you know, wait, it's gonna happen soon. And Jesus seems to have gone out to John. He probably seems to have been a disciple of John the Baptist, part of this inner group. And then John the Baptist gets killed by herod Antipas. And, and after that, Jesus seems to start on his own movement, which actually is quite similar

• 11:51Speaker 01

  to John's. The main difference with Jesus's is that he is clearly, he finds he's a very skilled healer and exorcist. And this is the thing that probably starts to attract the crowds. But Jesus's message is actually very similar to John. He's saying the end of the world is coming. God is gonna come.

• 12:09Kate Lister?

  Is he?

• 12:10Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 12:10Kate Lister?

  I didn't know he was saying that.

• 12:12Speaker 01

  Yeah, no, in, in terms of the original message, this is what Jesus is saying. The end of the world's coming. Judgment is coming. God is gonna come. Repent, get yourself ready, and just, you know, hold, hold true, because it's gonna come soon.

• 12:29Kate Lister?

  I mean, you said he got a reputation as a healer and an exorcist, which is, that's a hell of a job share to be doing that. What, what, I suppose, yeah, he was, he's healing the sick and he's making blind men see and, and things like that. That's a neat trick.

• 12:41Speaker 01

  Yeah. And I mean, when you think about the first century, you know, there's no, there's no NHS, there's no doctors, there's, particularly in rural areas, you know, there's maybe one or two sort of wise women who can do things with herbs. But, but basically, you're pretty much left on your own. So there would have been loads of people needing some kind of healing. And I mean, Jesus isn't the only one doing this. People are going to the god Asclepius, they're believing that he Can heal them. There's there's Jewish holy men too, and sort of, you know, wise people who are thought to have skills. But but yeah, I mean, it does seem, although, you know, we may be slightly

• 13:23Speaker 01

  sceptical about about these miracles, it does seem in its time that people did believe that Jesus had these powers.

• 13:31Kate Lister?

  So just to zoom out for a second. So we've got, it sounds like there's there's a number of religious followers and people doing kind of groovy stuff and people signing up to various causes. But this was, where was this? Is it Nazareth or Galilee? And it's under Roman occupation? Now, how did that clash with the Roman gods and goddesses and their authorities?

• 13:54Speaker 01

  So Galilee at this time is not under Roman occupation. It's it's ruled over by Herod Antipas, who's a Jewish king or Tetrarch, technically. He's one of the sons of Herod the Great, you know, the one who supposedly massacred all the children. But Roman presence is very much felt. It's the Romans who've put Herod on the throne. And as soon as Jesus goes south to Jerusalem, Jerusalem is under direct Roman rule. So so there's a difference. Where where he sort of conducts most of his ministry is in this Jewish area, and he's only got to worry about Herod Antipas. As soon as he goes south, though, it's the Romans in control, and then he's got to worry about the Roman prefect.

• 14:37Kate Lister?

  And how did Herod Antipas, how did they deal with these religious leaders and sects popping up? Was it a bit more permissive? Was it like, you know, like, sort of find your own way? Or did they clamp down on this? Was it just like, one faith and we all have to have that? Or was there in some kind of religious freedom at the time?

• 14:56Speaker 01

  I mean, yeah, there's lots of different ways of being Jewish in the first century, and some of them clashed with the authorities, some of them didn't. I mean, it's interesting to look at what happened to John the Baptist. He got killed. The the New Testament makes out that Herod didn't really want to kill him. But Josephus is pretty clear that Herod got worried because he was attracting large crowds. People were all going out to him in the wilderness. And Herod just starts to think, you know, I can't let this guy carry on. Because like everybody else, he doesn't want any kind of a riot. So he's thinking, you know, this this could be trouble. So better just to nip it in the bud, you know, get rid of the the ringleader. And that's pretty much the way.

• 15:39Speaker 01

  Rome as well treated everyone in the first century. I mean, we get, Jesus is is one amongst many of these sort of holy prophetic type figures. They sort of emerge, they get a following, and then the ruler of the day, generally speaking, gets rid of them.

• 15:56Kate Lister?

  Doesn't like them.

• 15:57Speaker 01

  No.

• 15:58Kate Lister?

  So he sounds kind of a bit sort of hip and groovy at the moment. I mean, apart from the the world's going to end bit, like he's he's kind of, he wants to heal people. And was his message like, you know, peace and love and let's be nice to one another? Is that is that what his message was at this point?

• 16:13Speaker 01

  There's lots of being nice to each other. I mean, love one another, love your enemies. I mean, there's all of these things. And that would have struck people as being quite, quite strange at the time. You know, you you love your family, you love your tribe, you love your people. But, you know, you don't have to love your enemies, particularly not the Romans. I mean, nobody wants to love the Romans. So yeah, that would have seemed a bit strange to people. But this idea of the end of the world coming, this is actually very common in the first century. Lots of people around about this time, probably because it's, you know, turbulent political times. You've got a lot of change at the time. You've got Rome very much encroaching on the east, even though Galilee is is ruled by a Jewish king. It can't have looked like it

• 16:57Speaker 01

  was going to be very long until, you know, Rome just sort of took them over too. So I think in this sort of troubled times, people are looking for some way out, you know. And also, people, Jewish people are thinking, how come, you know, how come the Roman gods seem to be doing so well? When is our God gonna start sort of doing a bit of smiting?

• 17:18Kate Lister?

  It's a fair question, that, isn't it?

• 17:20Speaker 01

  Exactly. It's what people wanted, you know, when when is God gonna come and just get rid of these Romans? We've had enough.

• 17:26Kate Lister?

  Chuck them out.

• 17:27Speaker 01

  Yeah. So so these, these are very, very popular types of preachers. And and we get a whole line of them, not just John the Baptist and Jesus, but a lot of other ones too.

• 17:38Kate Lister?

  There's a whole load of them, right? I watched The Life of Brian for the first time. I rewatched it like a couple of weeks ago after seeing clips of it on on Instagram. I'd forgotten how good that film was and I went and watched it again and it's just, and they've got that bit, haven't they? With loads of different preachers and people running around trying to follow new people all the time.

• 17:55Speaker 01

  Exactly. And and I think that's one of the aspects that the film captures captures really well. You know, this was a kind of a time where people, people are just dreaming dreams. They want to be inspired by people. They want to think that, they want to think there's something better than what they've got at the moment.

• 18:12Kate Lister?

  That makes perfect sense. To us today, somebody coming along and going, look, let's, let's be nice to each other and let's love each other and let's look after poor people and let's not be horrible to sex workers. In fact, we're all even Stephens. We're all made, that today sounds like quite a nice message. But at the time, and indeed for a long time afterwards, and maybe still today, it's also very subversive, that idea.

• 18:37Speaker 01

  It is. It's very counter-cultural because it's, it's not what people think. And and I think one of the difficulties is that we have, you know, even if we're living in a post-Christian culture, we've, our culture has been so influenced by this message that we just think it's normal to to go around saying, you know, love your, love your neighbour. But people in the first century didn't. They were, you know, your first duty was to your family, to your kin and your nation, your ethnic group. And again, the idea that that you should sort of help the poor. This was more of a thing in in Jewish society because people did sort of give, um, give offerings and things like that to the poor. But but certainly in Roman society, you know, you could be a good person without sort of bothering about the poor.

• 19:18Speaker 01

  You know, the poor, they, they, they had their own, you know, it was their own fault, people thought half of the time. So, um, yeah.

• 19:35Speaker 01

  I'll be back with Helen and Jesus after this short break.

• 19:43Speaker 01

  Hello, Betwixters. I am jumping in here because I have some very exciting news. Betwixt the Sheets has set up camp on YouTube. That's right, it took us a while, but we are there now. So if you are the kind of person who likes to see your podcasts as well as hear your podcasts, you can now go and find us right there, and the link is in the show notes. And please remember to like and subscribe because the people in charge of the money really do like that.

• 20:12Speaker 01

  Right, let's get on with it.

• 20:25Kate Lister?

  Well, one thing that I do know about the Romans, and I've learnt after speaking to a lot of Roman historians, is that they liked order.

• 20:31Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 20:31Kate Lister?

  It was very, very important to them. Their entire society and system throughout the whole of the empire depended on this idea of order, and they were going to preserve order and a very rigid hierarchy. This is a society that's built on slaves and have very clear views of what different people are supposed to be doing. They all have a box and everyone should stay in that box.

• 20:52Speaker 01

  Even the clothes you wear. I mean, everything proclaims your order. That's absolutely right. And so, I mean, that's, I think, what's so subversive about this Christian message. The idea that you should, you should look out for people who are not in your box. And, and also the idea that you should kind of make yourself a slave, be a servant to other people, you know.

• 21:14Kate Lister?

  That would have blown their minds. They wouldn't have liked that at all.

• 21:16Speaker 01

  It's so completely the opposite. And, and, and everybody else, you know, in Roman society is striving for honour, for greatness, for power, for recognition. You know, you want to be seen. Honour is the big, the big thing. And, and to say, well, you should be like a servant and you should help other people is, is really odd. You know, odd to the point of being really certifiable.

• 21:41Kate Lister?

  And kind of what's contained within that is it's not just everyone should be nice to each other, but it's that people aren't better than you is the implicit message as well in that. If everyone's equal and everyone should care for one another, it's a direct challenge to the authority.

• 21:55Speaker 01

  Yes, exactly, exactly. We're all there and, you know, God is the only one in command. And that, I think, is a particular challenge to the emperor.

• 22:05Kate Lister?

  They wouldn't have liked that at all. So when, so when he's, he's hanging around in sort of like under Jewish rule, this is okay. He's gaining a bit of prominence, we think. He's, he's one of several people that have got these new ideas and new followers. But he moves to Judea and that's going to set him on a, on a collision path, isn't it?

• 22:26Speaker 01

  Yeah, I, I think, I think if he'd stayed in, in Galilee, he might have been all right. I mean, Herod Antipas is still kind of keeping an eye on him and might have gone after him. And the Gospels suggest that, you know, there were some kind of movements in that direction. But I think as, as soon as he came to, as soon as he came south and particularly to Jerusalem and Jerusalem at Passover, that's what really seals his fate. Because, you know, the Romans were actually pretty generous to, to the Jews despite, you know, occupying their land. They did allow them to, to continue to, to have these big pilgrimage feasts. And Passover was the biggest of the pilgrimage feasts.

• 23:11Speaker 01

  You've got about a hun- hundreds of thousands of people making their way to Jerusalem from all over the Eastern Empire. So, you know, you've really got loads and loads of people all squashed together, doing their work, which is very unusual for, for people at the time. They're all drinking, they're meeting up with families. And so this is a potentially volatile situation. So I think as soon as you get this holy man coming from Galilee into this, this already slightly precarious situation, it's just a matter of time, really.

• 23:46Kate Lister?

  What do the Gospels tell us about? Like, how many followers? Sounds like I'm talking about Instagram, the original, but how many followers did he have at this time? Like, was he big in his day? Was he causing a splash? Or was he just a sort of like an outside character that people were sort of keeping an eye on?

• 24:04Speaker 01

  Yeah, I think, I think he did become something big in his day. I mean, one of the difficulties is it's, it's hard to know how long his ministry lasted. It might just have been a few months. It might have been a couple of years. We don't actually know. Certainly, he had a body of very close followers. So he's got the 12 men, the 12 male disciples that kind of everyone knows about. But there's also lots of women. The gospels say that as he's making his way around Galilee, he's got a lot of women who follow him too. So, you know, our mental picture shouldn't just be Jesus and these 12 strapping men, but, but women with them as well. It's a mixed group. And this large group is sort of making its way to Jerusalem.

• 24:47Speaker 01

  I mean, the gospels suggest that large crowds followed him or turned up to see what he was going to do. You know, they talk about.

• 24:54Kate Lister?

  See, now we're getting dangerous, aren't we? Because one lone person saying this stuff is, is fine for the Romans. They'd probably just be okay. Lots of people now joining in. I don't think that they would appreciate that.

• 25:06Speaker 01

  That's right. So, I mean, you know, you, you hear that there's a crowd of 5,000, a crowd of 4,000. I mean, who knows? Who would have known in antiquity how big these crowds were? But, you know, we're given the impression that there are large gatherings and they're coming to see, they're coming to see the miracles. You know, they're, they're wanting healing. They're wanting to see some, this is before telly and the radio, you know? This is, this is entertainment as much as anything else. But also he's got this message and certainly some of them are going to go back and think, yeah, you know, this, this could be the time. This could be the guy, you know, this is, this is it. Something is going to happen now. So he is, he's, he's, he's growing in popularity. He's got all these followers.

• 25:49Speaker 01

  He goes to Jerusalem and some of these followers are coming with him. He's getting new followers. Some of them are already in Jerusalem. So I think this is where it starts to get dangerous. Once he's got a body of people following him in this really cramped and difficult time where everybody, everybody's waiting for something to happen.

• 26:11Kate Lister?

  Would it be usual for religious leaders like this to just be arrested just for being religious leaders? I mean, it sounds like something the Romans would do. They were pretty horrible, but did they do that?

• 26:20Speaker 01

  Well, I think the difficulty is, and it's really good that you mention this, what we call a religious leader wasn't really a thing in the first century. So we think of Jesus as a religious leader. But in the ancient world, religion and politics were so completely intertwined that you can't just say Jesus is a religious leader. He's also a political leader. So, you know, to say that God is going to come and establish God's kingdom on earth, that's a political statement. That's saying that God is going to come, he's going to wipe away the Romans, especially the emperor, because the emperor claims to be king, but we all know that God is king. And, you know, it's a political statement.

• 27:04Kate Lister?

  And quite a dangerous one.

• 27:07Speaker 01

  Exactly, a really dangerous one. And of course, the Roman Empire too is based on Roman gods. It assumes that the Roman gods are in charge. What Jesus is saying is that, no, the Jewish god is going to come and he's going to smite the lot of you. He's going to get rid of the Roman gods, he's going to get rid of Rome and its emperor, and God is going to be the one in charge. So this is a political message. And as we've been saying, you know, the whole subversive tone to everyone's coming out of their boxes is, again, something, you know, it's challenging the stability of society.

• 27:48Kate Lister?

  Yeah. Now, what do the Gospels say about how Jesus got arrested? My memory is a bit fuzzy, but there was, Judas did something. But I suppose what I'm interested in is, what would they have arrested him for?

• 28:01Speaker 01

  I think we need to be a little bit cautious about the Gospels here, because they want to put a lot of blame on the Jewish leadership. But of course, Jesus is crucified and this is a Roman penalty. So I think we really need to look at who would have put him on a cross. And this is Pontius Pilate, the Roman governor of Judea. He normally lives out on the coast in a nice airy, airy city over there, but he comes to Jerusalem for the Passover, just to make sure that there's no infringements of law and order. And he's making sure that there's no riots. Although ironically, I think

• 28:41Speaker 01

  his very presence there with Roman troops kind of stirs up riots. So anyway, he's there, he's watching, he's waiting, he sees Jesus coming into Jerusalem, riding on the back of a donkey. That's a statement, you know, everyone walks in, this is a pilgrimage, you walk in or you go on your knees. But, you know, to ride in on a donkey, he's got a following, as we said, he goes into the temple in Jerusalem and he does something, he's knocking over the tables of the money changers and the dove sellers. So who knows what he's doing next, you know?

• 29:19Kate Lister?

  Why would he do that? I know it's very difficult, we've only got the gospel to tell us. But like, what statement is being made in that action of turning over the table?

• 29:26Speaker 01

  Well, the gospel suggests that it's something to do with predicting the end of the temple, you know, the temple will be destroyed. People sometimes think maybe he's sort of challenging over commercial activity in the temple. But in a way, it doesn't really matter, you know, he's in the temple at the most holy time of year, one of the most holy times of year, and he's, he's causing a disturbance. So I think it's quite likely that Pilate has probably been watching him for some time. He's probably had a report from Herod Antipas back in Galilee. He'll know that he's been moving around. He'll know, maybe he's not a big threat. He's not inciting people to take up arms. But the fact that he comes

• 30:07Speaker 01

  to Jerusalem with a following at the busiest time of year means that, you know, he has to be stopped. Once he starts doing things like, you know, demonstrating in the temple, he has to be stopped. And I think the gospel suggests that the prime movers in all of this were the the chief priests, the Jewish leadership, the priestly leadership in Jerusalem. And I think, although I wouldn't say that they're the the main people in all of this, it's not at all unlikely that they had a hand in it too, because they were actually Roman appointments. The the high priest has been put there by Pontius Pilate.

• 30:47Speaker 01

  And the whole point is that he's got to toe a pro-Roman line. And if he doesn't, he's out, somebody else is in. And probably they thought, well, you know, this guy's a bit misguided. We don't know what he's going to do either. Once he takes his message to the Jerusalem temple, what's he going to do next? Is he going to do something that's going to threaten the feast? You know, he can't be allowed to carry on. So it was probably in their interest to to get rid of him and maybe they thought, you know, the Roman governor will do something for us in exchange. So I think it's possible that that they did have some hand in kind of, you know.

• 31:26Kate Lister?

  A lot of people want rid of him.

• 31:28Speaker 01

  I think a lot of people at the top are starting to think he's dangerous. And you you mentioned Judas. We don't know for sure whether Judas is a real character or not, but.

• 31:39Kate Lister?

  Interesting.

• 31:40Speaker 01

  He might well have been. Certainly, the gospels suggest that, you know, I mean, interestingly, they they suggest that Jesus was both betrayed by a follower and denied by a follower. And so they don't kind of, they don't hide the fact that some of Jesus's disciples were, you know, less loyal than they might have been. So, yeah, maybe maybe Judas is a real character. Maybe he did kind of give them some inside information about where they could find Jesus, maybe even what he was saying, what his plans were, what he was thinking. But we don't know that for sure.

• 32:15Kate Lister?

  What do you think he would have been arrested for? Like disturbance? I mean, the Romans didn't like that at all. Is that something that they would arrest you for, disturbing the peace, I suppose we'd say today?

• 32:25Speaker 01

  Yeah, exactly. I mean, the thing is, you know, Rome has this very complicated legal system. But it only kicks in if you're a Roman citizen. If you're under that radar, then, you know.

• 32:38Kate Lister?

  Stuff, yeah.

• 32:38Speaker 01

  Yeah, you don't, I mean, it's possible that Jesus was just rounded up, stuck on a cross. That was the end of it.

• 32:44Kate Lister?

  I know, I'm, I'm thinking that there's some kind of trial here or some kind of due process. That might not have been the case at all. It might have just been, just get him.

• 32:52Speaker 01

  Exactly, and I, I think it's difficult for us to remember and to realise just how low human life is treated at this point.

• 32:58Kate Lister?

  Yes, good point.

• 33:00Speaker 01

  Particularly as someone of low status. So, you know, he's a troublemaker, we don't know what he's doing next. Put him on a cross.

• 33:07Kate Lister?

  Yeah, I was thinking that there might, there must have been some kind of due process or legal following here, but maybe not.

• 33:13Speaker 01

  I think it's likely that Pilate did want to, you know, have a look at him. Because, I mean, it's interesting that like, like with John the Baptist, they just get rid of Jesus, they don't get rid of the other followers. Um, and maybe, maybe Pilate sort of had a very brief interrogation of Jesus. Maybe he just wanted to find out, you know, is it all centred on this one person? Or is it, is it a wider movement? At any rate, he must have decided that it was just the one person because he just gets rid of Jesus and the rest of them are, are allowed to, to just run off. Um, so I wouldn't rule out some kind of very brief interrogation, but the idea that there's a formal trial with a verdict and a, a charge, um, I think is, is to sort of

• 33:58Speaker 01

  read modern day sensibilities back into it.

• 34:11Speaker 01

  I'll be back with Helen and Jesus after this short break.

• 34:19Speaker 01

  Hello, Betwixters. I am jumping here because I have some very exciting news. Betwixt the Sheets has set up camp on YouTube. That's right, it took us a while, but we are there now. So if you are the kind of person who likes to see your podcasts as well as hear your podcasts, you can now go and find us right there and the link is in the show notes. And please remember to like and subscribe because the people in charge of the money really do like that.

• 34:48Speaker 01

  Right, let's get on with it.

• 35:01Kate Lister?

  We know that he was crucified, but let's talk about crucifixion for a moment. What, who did the Romans crucify and what kind of things would they crucify for? It's a particularly horrendous way to go.

• 35:13Speaker 01

  Yes, it's designed to be torture and humiliating and you're naked and you die in extreme agony, you die eventually just of exhaustion and suffocation when your arms can't hold you up enough and generally speaking, there's no burial, you're just pecked away by the wild animals. It is designed to be absolutely horrendous and I mean, so horrible that Romans actually don't tend to talk about it very much. They just talk about the extreme penalty or something like that. The Gospels are actually our longest account of a crucifixion from antiquity. Yeah, it's strange to think that.

• 35:56Speaker 01

  And so people of, Roman citizens couldn't be crucified, although I mean occasionally they were, but in theory it had to be people lower than a citizen. It was generally people like, you know, rebels, thieves, slaves. It was thought of very much as the slaves' death. And I mean, in other places, a householder could just crucify his slaves if they didn't do what he wanted them to do.

• 36:23Kate Lister?

  See, that's the Romans that I know and love.

• 36:25Speaker 01

  Yeah, exactly, exactly. Human life is just very, very disregarded by these people who are higher up the pecking order. So Jesus was probably crucified because he looked like he was going to threaten the peace. He looked like he was some kind of rebel. He was possibly inciting people to violence. From the Jewish side of things, they might have thought he was setting himself up as some kind of a false prophet, you know, leading the people astray. There are plenty of things like that in the Jewish scriptures that would lead to death as well. Yeah, and the Gospels suggest that Jesus was flogged beforehand and that does seem to have been a common Either beforehand or actually sometimes on the cross itself.

• 37:09Speaker 01

  There's horrible stories about Roman, Roman soldiers who are just having their fun with victims. They're crucifying them in strange ways, you know. If the idea that there was a sign saying the king of the Jews is true, then again, it's kind of, it's mockery. It's making fun of him, you know, this is the only king the Jews are going to have. And it can take several days often. So the whole point is that bodies are up there and it's a deterrent. So the idea is, you know, look what happens to enemies of Rome. You don't want to be one of them.

• 37:44Kate Lister?

  Would he have carried his, his, his own cross or is that another?

• 37:48Speaker 01

  Yeah, that does, not the whole cross, but the, the cross beam, because the stakes seem to have been sort of already there. And the, the upright bit, because that's the bit that's going to take the longest to, you know, to make it stable. It does seem as though people carried the cross beam and then just got attached to it and then it would be hoisted up. And there were different ways, you know, sometimes it was more like a T, sometimes it was more like a cross. But essentially it's the same thing. You're just hung up, did I?

• 38:15Kate Lister?

  Grim, isn't it?

• 38:16Speaker 01

  It is.

• 38:17Kate Lister?

  And is it right that he was stabbed? Is that how Christ died, that he stabbed or did he die of exposure?

• 38:23Speaker 01

  Well, in, in John's Gospel, they're supposedly going to, to break the legs of the, of the people on the crosses to speed up.

• 38:30Kate Lister?

  Fucking hell.

• 38:31Speaker 01

  I know, it's horrendous. I mean, because obviously if your legs are broken, then that's going to put, you know, you're going to have to pull yourself up by your arms. And once you can no longer do that, you're just going to die of suffocation. So it would kill you quite quickly. I know it's, it's, it's really horrible.

• 38:46Kate Lister?

  Thanks.

• 38:47Speaker 01

  So, but in John's Gospel, they don't break Jesus's legs because he's already dead. And so what happens there is that a centurion sort of prods the side of him with a, with a lance. So maybe that happened. I mean, John puts that to theological purposes. He says, blood and water came out and, you know, you've got this whole idea of rebirth, rebirth in, in the blood of Jesus. But it's, you know, it's the kind of thing that gods might have done.

• 39:15Kate Lister?

  So the poor fellow is gone in the most awful way. And I suppose the theory must have been, that'll do it. That will, that will, we've, we've taken out the leader, it's done and dusted now. That must have been something that happened regularly, but it was not to be. So when do we start to get the followers of Christ, like organising into a religion after his death?

• 39:37Speaker 01

  Yeah, a lot longer than than you think in terms of organising into a religion, because for at least the first century or so, followers of Jesus were still Jews. But yeah, I mean, certainly quite soon after followers start to see Jesus, they have these appearances, visions. And, and again, our earliest witness to this is St Paul in his letters. And he preserves bits that sound like they're kind of, you know, earlier tradition. And there's a, there's a tradition that Jesus rose on the third day, and that he appeared to certain people, Peter the Apostle, the 12, 500 of the Christians. And last of all, he says to me, so this must be Paul's

• 40:21Speaker 01

  sort of experience of Jesus on the Damascus Road, where he gets some kind of visionary thing. So, so when Paul is talking about it, he sounds as though they have some kind of appearances. And these appearances convince them that Jesus is alive again. The, the first reference we get to the empty tomb is in the Gospel of Mark, written probably in the seventies. So this is 40 years later. That doesn't, of course, stop it being a much earlier tradition, but it, it is a fact that we don't have it any earlier. And Paul doesn't mention an empty tomb, but it seems likely to me that, that there may have been something to do with the tomb. Maybe the

• 41:03Speaker 01

  women found it disturbed in some way, or maybe they couldn't find it, or there was something odd about the tomb. And then you start to get these reports of visions and I mean, again, this is something that historians can't really answer because it's outside the the the sort of the normal rules of the of the universe. You've got to either believe it if you're a follower or or not. But certainly, I think we're on good historical ground when we say that the the early Christians thought that Jesus had been raised from the dead. They thought that something had happened. And so strong was that conviction that it does seem to have turned them into frightened people waiting, you know, running off and not knowing what to do next, to being bold missionaries who took this message around the empire.

• 41:48Kate Lister?

  In the early days, the Romans, their attitude was not, oh, there's a new religion, let's um, let's all get along together at all, was it? Like, the early Christians were ruthlessly persecuted.

• 42:01Speaker 01

  Yeah, I mean, not at not at first. Um, I think it took a little while before before they were big enough, really, before anybody sort of. And whilst they're seen as Jews as well, I mean, that's that Jews are a sort of protected ethnic group, um, largely because they were very helpful to Julius Caesar back in the in the civil wars. And so, um, the Jewish religion is sort of allowed, or at least, you know, Jewish peculiarities are allowed. Um, so it takes quite a while before Christianity is a thing. Certainly, the fall of Jerusalem in AD seventy, people start to think who's a Jew, who's not a Jew. And it's really by sort of the second century, you've got by that time, you've got so many non-Jews coming

• 42:44Speaker 01

  into the movement, that it's it's clear that it's something different to to the Jewish faith. And and then, I think, it starts to become problematic as as people are moving from paganism into Christianity, then the the powers that be start to take more notice.

• 43:04Kate Lister?

  And is it the same reasons that that Christ himself was was persecuted, which is that it's a disturbance and it upsets the order of things? Is it heresy that they didn't like?

• 43:15Speaker 01

  Yeah, and and followers can often be accused of atheism because their their allegiance to the the God of Jesus, the Jewish God, I suppose, essentially, means that they're not, they're not taking part in the civic cults. And, you know, this is one thing for Jews, because they never did anyway. But once you're starting to get a lot of Gentiles, pagans into the movement, then, you know, this is this is stopping people worshipping the gods of the city. And and this is dangerous, because, you know, the gods of the city need to be given their their dues. And and if there's a lot of people who aren't doing that, that then starts to become problematic. But but you get isolated bits of persecution in sort of various

• 43:59Speaker 01

  parts of, you know, for various reasons in the first and second century. It's sort of once you're getting into the late seconds, third century, that, you know, Christianity is distinct enough and big enough for it to start being a threat.

• 44:15Kate Lister?

  Where did the idea that the Jews were to blame for Christ's death come from? Because he was Jewish, he was a Jewish fellow, it was a Jewish, I bet if you'd said to him, are you a Christian, he'd have looked at you quite blankly, wouldn't have known what that meant.

• 44:29Speaker 01

  Exactly. I think that's one of the mistakes people make. People think Jesus is the first Christian, but he wasn't by any means. Even Paul, I think, you know, would say to his dying day, I'm Jewish, I would get my son circumcised, you know, the break between the two faiths, as they later became, was was much later than than people tend to think. So, yeah, in terms of blaming the Jews, I I think this is a a post seventy development. And seventy is a big year, because that's the year that Rome destroyed the temple in Jerusalem. There was a revolt of the Jews in sixty six. Rome came, of course, and put it down brutally, burnt the temple to the ground.

• 45:12Speaker 01

  And then you get all of these people trying to work out, you know, what, what does this mean? Does this mean that the Roman gods are stronger than the Jewish gods? How do we explain the fact that um that the temple has fallen? This is, you know, this is incredible. It had happened before, centuries earlier, but it had been rebuilt. And, and the way that they explained it centuries before was to say that the people themselves had sinned, that, that, you know, they'd done bad things. And because of that, God had come and destroyed the temple. And then, you know, as a punishment, and then things would be okay later on. And so they use exactly the same explanation here.

• 45:56Speaker 01

  So a lot of Jewish writers start to say, well, you know, it must be something about the people. We did, we did something wrong. Um, and I think the Christians, and you get this early, first of all, in, in Mark's Gospel, Christians start to think it was because of the death of Jesus that the temple fell. And who's to blame for the death of Jesus? Well, it's the priestly aristocracy in Jerusalem. And so I think that's where it first came from. That's why I think the Gospels are so negative about the, um, the priestly aristocracy. They put all the blame onto them. And at the same time, um, by the late first century, they know that most of the new converts to the religion are going to be from the pagan world.

• 46:41Speaker 01

  Um, and so they don't want to kind of say too much about, you know, oh, yeah, Poncha's pilot, the Roman governor, thought Jesus was a troublemaker, so they put him on the cross. They want to kind of distance Pilate from all of that and suggest that actually, you know, the ones to blame are the, the Jewish leaders. And, and you get this, I think, even magnified in the Gospels as they go along. And particularly in the early second century, you get some of these church fathers, um, as they're known, sort of leaders, bishops and people who really, really kind of double down on this, you know, the Jews are to blame. And of course, this has been a

• 47:22Speaker 01

  Disastrous thing um over over the years, and particularly that horrible saying in Matthew's Gospel. Pilate washes his hands of the whole thing and the people say his blood be on us and on our children. So it made sense in its time when the Christian group were just a very, very small part of the Jewish faith. But read later on, particularly in the Middle Ages, when um when now, you know, Christians are the majority. It reads very differently and has led to all kinds of terrible things.

• 47:55Kate Lister?

  So this series is about how to get cancelled and it's and it sounds like Christ was cancelled because he was a disruptor, that he was too much of a threat to established authorities.

• 48:09Speaker 01

  Yeah, I think that's that's right. He was a disruptor. He's also wrong place, wrong time. So, you know, had he kept to those rural villages and just kept there, even if he'd come into Judea and just kept to the villagers, he might have been okay because no one really cares what's happening in the rural hinterland. It's the cities that Romans are bothered about. So, yeah, no, I think I think that's a good way to describe him a disruptor, but also a disruptor in the wrong place.

• 48:37Kate Lister?

  It always interested me, like somebody who studies the Bible and the original messages of Christ. I often wonder what he'd have to say if he came back today. I'm sure that there's there's a lot of people who claim that they're doing things in his name and I'm pretty sure he'd hate them. I'm pretty sure about that.

• 48:53Speaker 01

  Well, I mean, one one very basic thing is that, as as we said earlier, you know, Jesus's message was about the end of the world coming and getting ready for it.

• 49:02Kate Lister?

  Yes.

• 49:03Speaker 01

  After Jesus's death and the resurrection, the message changed now to be largely about Jesus himself and what God had done through Jesus. So so just the very message of Christianity is something different.

• 49:15Kate Lister?

  Maybe he was kind of cancelled then, because like if his original message was the world's going to end and then they executed him and then the message changed, maybe they did manage to cancel him.

• 49:25Speaker 01

  I think he would find it quite surprising um the direction that that Christianity had gone. I mean, of course. People will say, well, this is all sort of led by the spirit and this is the way that it was going to go anyway. But there's a lot of sort of readjusting. And I mean, Christians too, thought the end of the world that was going to come until fairly recently. I mean, all the way through the Middle Ages, people were expecting the end and then they expected Jesus to come back. And, you know, those, those elements have not quite gone from Christianity, even if they're not as central now.

• 49:57Kate Lister?

  Oh, Helen, you have been magnificent to talk to. Thank you so much. If people want to know more about you and your work, where can they find you?

• 50:04Speaker 01

  They can look on the, the website for the University of Edinburgh, or they can listen to my podcast, which I do with the glorious Lloyd Llewellyn Jones, a classicist. And it's called Biblical Time Machine. And we, we go back to Bible times and we look at everything to do with the sights, sounds and smells of the Bible.

• 50:23Kate Lister?

  Oh, that sounds fabulous. Thank you so much. You've been a treat.

• 50:30Kate Lister?

  Thank you for listening and thank you so much to Helen for joining us. And if you like what you heard, don't forget to like, review and follow along, whatever it is you get your podcasts. Coming up, we are finding out how to get cancelled in 1920s Hollywood and how to get cancelled when you're a medieval royal mistress. And if you'd like us to explore a subject or if you just wanted to say hello, then you can email us at [email protected]. This podcast was edited by Hannah Theodorov and produced by Sophie G. The senior producer was Freddy Chick. Join me again, Betwixt and Sheets, The History of Sex Scandal in Society, a podcast by History Hit. This podcast contains music from Epidemic Sound.