Joy 101: Shawn Johnson East

“There was something about gymnastics that was intoxicating to me. And I think it's given me a belief - maybe it's a delusional belief - that we all have one of those treasures inside of us. We just have to find it.”--SHAWN JOHNSON EAST Joy 101 with Hoda Kotb is Presented by CVS. Shop your local CVS, right around the corner. Experience the full conversation on the "Joy 101 podcast with Hoda Kotb" wherever you listen to podcasts. For more information please visit us at www.joy101.com/podcast https://nam04.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.joy101.com%2Fpodcast&data=05%7C02%7CBrianBurton%40iheartmedia.com%7Cded9cc1bcf384e3a454908decd74e89f%7C122a527e5b714eba878d9810b495b9e3%7C0%7C0%7C639174099157486336%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJFbXB0eU1hcGkiOnRydWUsIlYiOiIwLjAuMDAwMCIsIlAiOiJXaW4zMiIsIkFOIjoiTWFpbCIsIldUIjoyfQ%3D%3D%7C0%7C%7C%7C&sdata=XWZQneEVC5PbeX7ZtOTadzlMy0r7x%2FOzGWL84hzSoHY%3D&reserved=0 See omnystudio.com/listener https://omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:11Hoda Kotb?

  Okay, so I consider myself a seeker, someone who's trying to improve, get better, learn something, you know, that kind of thing. So I'm a real, I'm always hungry for a podcast, a TED Talk, a commencement address, doesn't matter, I like them all. So I started this company called Joy 101, which is a beautiful wellness-based company that's got all kinds of stuff there. It's got an app, and it's got retreats and all this stuff. But what I learned when I started this new thing, and maybe you started something new and you get this, it's like you've always done one thing your whole life, and suddenly now you're switching into another job. So I'm now a CEO.

• 0:54Hoda Kotb?

  I've never been a CEO, but I figured, oh yeah, it's easy. You just live how you always live and do the things you always did. That's not how it works. When you have a new job that requires new skills, you have to learn that job too. So I did something that's super cool, and I'm so excited about it. So I hired a leadership coach, and I didn't even know what that was. So I had my very first session, and I was thinking, what's this guy gonna show me, or tell me, or whatever? So this is just session one. So for session one, he said to me, "Tell me about your life in 10 minutes." So I thought, okay, so that's from the beginning to where we are right now.

• 1:36Hoda Kotb?

  Now think about if someone asked you, "Tell your life in 10 minutes." What would you highlight? What would be the big moments? That's an easy way to distill down what matters to you, what's important, what are your highlights of life. So I did the 10 minutes. And then he was, he was giving me some pointers and things, and then he said something interesting. He said, after this hour-long kind of just getting to know you, he said, "I'm gonna give you two homework assignments, so I'm gonna give you the same two that he gave me, cuz I think they're interesting." So the first one was, he said, "Whenever you talk," and I didn't know this is how I spoke, because I don't hear myself, I'm just talking. He said, "You don't, you don't say, 'I was mad,' you say, 'I was kinda mad,' or, 'I

• 2:19Hoda Kotb?

  was a little teed-off,' or, 'I was kind of, kinda bugged me.'" He said, "Every time you qualify with kinda, a little, sort of, what you are is upset," or whatever you're feeling. He said, "Throughout the next week, every time you say one of those qualifying words, just pause for a second, don't correct it, just pause, and say to yourself, 'Oh, there it is, there it is.'" Like, let's say you're someone who apologizes all the time, just, you know that. So as you go through the next week, think about it, every time you say, "Huh, oh, I just said I'm sorry for bumping into a table," or, you know how we do, we're like, "So, this

• 3:01Hoda Kotb?

  made me conscious of, ah, I don't need to clarify, be definitive, like, that's important." The other thing he said to do, and try this too, because this is interesting, no matter what you do in life. He said, "Make two lists, okay? Your strengths and weaknesses. Twenty-five strengths and twenty-five weaknesses." Okay? So I was like, "Oh, cool, be simple. Strengths, weaknesses." Wait till you get to number 12 or 15, and you're like, "Hamina, hamina, hamina, what's the next thing?" It's very helpful in revealing who you are. Now, I just, I asked Anna Rell, who's my executive assistant, to do this, and she totally crushed it in five minutes, cuz some people are really good at it. But I think most people are like, "I'm not sure, is that..."

• 3:46Hoda Kotb?

  So, list them, and it doesn't, I don't mean in business, in life, strengths and weaknesses. It just gives you a, like, 35,000-foot kind of look at your life, and they're cool and interesting exercises to deal with, so you know who you are and what you're about. Okay? So, the person I'm about to interview knows all about this stuff.

• 4:09Hoda Kotb?

  She's somebody who you might remember from the 2008 Olympics in Beijing. She won four medals, one gold. She is a powerhouse. Okay, we all remember her. She was tiny, adorable, and crushing it. And her name's Shawn Johnson. She's an incredible athlete. And she hit this pinnacle at age 16. So I was always wondering, and I'm always so fascinated with people like this. What happens when you get the gold at that age? What happens to the rest of your life? What happens from that point on? Well, she's now Shawn Johnson East. She's married, she's got children, and she's got this incredible life.

• 4:50Hoda Kotb?

  But she learned so much about joy, and achievement, and discipline, and all of these things all rolled into one. So, this conversation here on Joy 101 with Shawn Johnson East is going to be fascinating because she's been to the top, she's had terrible potholes, and she's come right back. And she knows the definition of joy. So, I hope you enjoy this conversation.

• 5:18Speaker 01

  This is an iHeart Podcast. Guaranteed Human.

• 5:23Hoda Kotb?

  Joy 101 with Hoda Kotb is presented by CVS. I've realized that joy doesn't always come from those big moments. Sometimes you find it on the most ordinary day. I'll pop into a CVS for toothpaste or paper towels, and it never seems to be just a quick errand. Maybe I'll grab a delicious Well Market Trail Mix or wander over to the Joy Word Collection. That's part of the fun. So the next time you're checking something off your to-do list, stop by your local CVS pharmacy. You might go in for one thing and leave with a little more joy. Visit your local CVS pharmacy, sponsored by CVS. Every purchase is a financial decision. So, it's worth asking, what am I getting out of this?

• 6:04Hoda Kotb?

  If you're using the Chase Freedom Flex Card, you can maximize your cash back on things you need. More ways to earn, more ways to get rewarded. Sign up for the Chase Freedom Flex Card. Learn more at chase.com/getflex. This is a paid collaboration. ...with Chase Freedom Flex. Cards issued by JP Morgan Chase Bank, N.A., member FDIC. Subject to credit approval. Offer subject to change. Terms apply.

• 6:28Speaker 02

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• 6:43Speaker 03

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• 7:15Hoda Kotb?

  Hey, how are you?

• 7:17Speaker 04

  Great, how are you?

• 7:18Hoda Kotb?

  Oh my God, you're so bright and shiny. I'm so happy. How are you?

• 7:23Speaker 04

  I'm wonderful. It's been, I think the last time I saw you was in Paris, which is crazy.

• 7:29Hoda Kotb?

  Holy, the Olympics.

• 7:31Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 7:31Hoda Kotb?

  Okay, first of all, yay for Sean, yay for Andrew. I'm so happy for you. Um, speaking of the Olympics, let's just begin where we begin, okay?

• 7:42Speaker 04

  Okay.

• 7:43Hoda Kotb?

  Um, I remember Beijing, because I was there in the audience with a big bowl of popcorn. And I remember Shawn Johnson, I remember four medals, I remember the gold on the beam. I remembered thinking to myself, my God, the mountaintop is right here. And this 16-year-old kid gets to feel what it feels like. So I know what it felt like on the outside looking in. What did it feel like on the inside?

• 8:11Speaker 04

  It like exactly what you just said, like the mountaintop. I had dreamt of that moment. I had been working for that moment. It it was a dream come true. It's also such a roller coaster of emotions because to me that was such a finish line. And I was only 16. I was a junior in high school and to cross a finish line that big at such a young age was such an accomplishment, but I didn't know what to do next. I had to start over life. So I remember standing on the podium thinking like, what do I do now?

• 8:42Hoda Kotb?

  Right, I did this, I did this amazing thing. And this is what it feels like. But again, we have to remind ourselves, and you know that being a kid, you were a teenager. Like any person who's listening, remember 16. They remember what it was like to be that age. And when the, when you hit the goal, did it feel like? I mean, you said like, oh no, now what next? You seem like a what next person, but, but for that moment to have reached it. Because I remember there was a whole thing with you and Nastia Lukin and who's going to get, who's going to get it? It's going to be this one or that one. You know, everyone loves to pit people against one another, especially at the Olympics.

• 9:21Hoda Kotb?

  How did you recover from having that kind of a push pull with a dear friend who you loved? And also were kind of pitted against?

• 9:31Speaker 04

  Well, I was with her two days ago. We spent two days together. She is my best friend and she is truly my family and my sister. And that's how we started as well. So at the Olympics, we actually got to choose who we were going to room with. And Nastia and I were inseparable. We are very similar in how we operate. We're over thinkers, perfectionists. We are very, very disciplined and we were sisters. And I remember we navigated it so well, all the way up until the Olympics. And I remember at the Olympics, we were still navigating it well. But then that's kind of when all the outside voices started coming in. You had agents and you had sponsors and you had newspapers back in the day, not even social media.

• 10:16Speaker 04

  Thank God, of saying it was always her or I. And I remember. Being 16, she was 18. We didn't know how to navigate that after the Olympics. And we actually didn't see each other or really speak. And it's, it's not because we didn't want to speak, but we didn't really interact for eight years.

• 10:38Hoda Kotb?

  Eight years?

• 10:38Speaker 04

  After the Olympics, eight years.

• 10:40Hoda Kotb?

  Feel like, I mean, anyone who's had a falling out with a friend and

• 10:44Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 10:44Hoda Kotb?

  Probably half, more than half people listening have. What did it feel like for you to lose someone who understood you?

• 10:51Speaker 04

  I could cry about it on the spot. It felt like I lost a part of me. She is, we went through such bonding and such, I mean, trauma in a happy sense.

• 11:03Speaker 04

  At such a young age, we went through all of that and she's the only one who really understands me on that level. And I'm the only one who understands her on that level. And I just remember in such a creepy way, we used to follow each other. We knew exactly where each other were. I knew every event she was at. I knew what, what she was wearing. I was checking in on her, but just from a distance. And I remember eight years later, we were both in relationships at the time. And I think our boyfriends got tired of hearing us talk about each other. And both of our boyfriends at the time said, like, enough of this. You need to reach out. And I wrote this long letter and an email. I didn't even know if it was the same email that she had and I sent it to her and I remember getting a response in like 60 seconds.

• 11:45Hoda Kotb?

  What did she say?

• 11:45Speaker 04

  And it was just like, I remember writing to her saying, I love you. I have always loved you. I will always be here for you. If you don't respond, it's okay. Like, I know the world has changed, but just know I'm here if you ever want. And she came back and she was the same way. She's like, I've missed you. I love you. And we've been inseparable again, I reckon.

• 12:06Hoda Kotb?

  Wow, that's beautiful. That's a beautiful way to come, to come back full circle. So Beijing, you're there, you're at the top of the mountain. And I mean, you, you ended up thinking, what's next? And the next Olympics was obviously what was next. I mean, in addition to other competitions. So did you immediately say, I gotta do this again? And the answer is yes, then why? You already did it. Like, you felt the feelings.

• 12:32Speaker 04

  I crossed the finish line in 2008 thinking, knowing I was done. I didn't really have any aspirations to continue in gymnastics. At that point in time, I felt tired already. And I was ready to go take on the next thing. For me, I, my dream after that was to be an orthopedic surgeon.

• 12:50Hoda Kotb?

  Oh, wow.

• 12:50Speaker 04

  So I wanted to go to med school. Um, but I got kind of put on this roller coaster of the aftermath of the Olympics, where things were just moving so fast. I was on Dancing with the Stars. I was doing public speaking. I was doing so much and it seemed like the roller coaster wasn't slowing down. And so year after year, um, I kept like deferring college and finding myself faced with interviews where people are like, well, are you going to go back? Are you going to go back? Are you going to do it again? You should do it again. You're really good at it. And I think that just kind of convinced me that that must be what people want to see. And because I felt so lost in a sense of like not knowing what to do next, I went back.

• 13:33Hoda Kotb?

  Wow.

• 13:34Speaker 04

  And I went all the way back into international or world competition. I made it to the Pan American Games. I competed and I remember thinking at Pan American Games, this is cool, but I don't like it anymore.

• 13:47Hoda Kotb?

  Wow, that is, by the way, that's a profound statement. Cause you've been doing it since you're three. And then to have a moment where something that was part of you suddenly didn't feel good anymore. What was the feeling? Was it fatigue or was it just what?

• 14:02Speaker 04

  I just remember the way I tried to describe it to even my coach is back in 2008, I could overcome anything. I could overcome any fear or even injury or roadblock or challenge because I was so driven. Cause the end goal meant more than anything. So I could get through rehab. I could get through the long trainings, the early mornings. And then fast forward to around the time that I retired. I remember even the smallest things feeling like the hardest hurdles to get through. Small pains felt really big. And I think it was just because that passion was gone. And I remember knowing, just kind of facing this question over and over of, am I meant to still be in this?

• 14:45Speaker 04

  And knowing in my heart that I kept answering the question, no. But then having so many people around me saying, you're almost there. Just stick with it.

• 14:55Hoda Kotb?

  Pressure, it's hard. It's hard when the world wants you to do something and you get swept up in the whole thing. So during that time, when you were doing Dancing with the Stars, you had Cheerios, you were giving speeches, you were, I mean, everywhere I looked, there was Shawn Johnson. Like, it was really cool. But what was, that's outside adoration, that's cool, winning Dancing with the Stars, you did it twice, I think, but like you had this love. But what was bringing you joy? Like, did that feel fulfilling to you during that time?

• 15:28Speaker 04

  Um, that stuff did feel fulfilling and I enjoyed it. I remember thinking, I naturally am such a shy, introverted person, so being on a stage is very hard. But I remember thinking, like, I kept being put on stages and I didn't know why, because it was not natural to me, but thinking that there had to be a purpose behind it, so trying to at least understand that I should do good with it. I don't know how to say that. So I felt the pressure to take it seriously. So I was feeling fulfilled. It just felt interesting, because I'm a very type A person, two plus two has to equal four, and for me, it was like, this was not what I planned.

• 16:11Speaker 04

  So I was trying to make sense with, where do I go from here? And when I went back into gymnastics, I think it was then that I started to feel very unfulfilled, which was confusing, because it was the one thing that I loved for so long. And I remember being swept up into that pressure of everyone saying, just stick with it, you're so close to 2012. And thinking, I know that makes sense to the world, but I can't under, I can't explain how this is just not bringing me any joy, and for some reason, I think that needs to be important. And when, the day that I chose to retire for the 2012 Go Ahead, I remember people thinking I was absolutely crazy, but it was the most freeing decision I've ever had.

• 16:55Hoda Kotb?

  I want to dig into that, because that's so interesting to me, the moment that you, that you decided, because there's one thing to know inside, which it seems like you knew for a while, but there's another thing to say it out loud. So tell me about how that came to be, what you said and what it felt like.

• 17:12Speaker 04

  It had been building for a while. And again, coming from the athletic side, I think I was trying to weigh, is this just a hard phase? Or has something switched inside of me? And when I kind of came to realize that I was just, I was done with the sport, and I needed to move on, I was ready to kind of get rid of gymnastics and start over with something new. I didn't know what it was. But I felt very excited about starting over rather than continuing. It was absolutely terrifying. I remember I had many sponsors backing me for 2012. I had to call them by cellphone numbers as a 19 year old kid and say, I just don't love it anymore.

• 17:53Speaker 04

  And the corporate world doesn't quite understand that as well as mom and dad do. So I had to face a lot of disappointment and anger. And, and I had to find it, find conviction in myself enough to say, I know you're upset, and I'm so sorry.

• 18:13Hoda Kotb?

  Can I just pause for a second?

• 18:14Speaker 04

  But I know this is the best option.

• 18:15Hoda Kotb?

  The fact that you yourself called, I bet you any other 19 year old would have said to somebody, will you call whoever and tell them, I can't do it. You physically called them and told them?

• 18:28Speaker 04

  I did. I, I was in an interesting position where

• 18:35Speaker 04

  my parents were my biggest supporters. And so it was me and my parents, but everybody else thought I was crazy. So they said, if you're going to do this, you have to do it. So I did it.

• 18:49Hoda Kotb?

  What was the hardest call? What was the toughest one for you?

• 18:52Speaker 04

  Um, there, I, I can't.

• 18:56Hoda Kotb?

  Not to say who they were, but just what the conversation was.

• 19:00Speaker 04

  I had a sponsor that was very angry. And I'm such a people pleaser. So it was heartbreaking to me because I really valued their respect and I I want to make people happy and I want to to, you know, perform for them and to hear the anger, which I now understand as an adult, came with a lot of pressure from their side. But that was really hard. I didn't like feeling like I was letting people down and I didn't know how to explain or articulate the conviction I have knowing this was not my time. Someone else is meant to have this spot. I'm not meant to be in 2012. It was really hard and people had invested a lot of time and money, which I gave it all back.

• 19:44Hoda Kotb?

  You did?

• 19:45Speaker 04

  I did.

• 19:46Hoda Kotb?

  Okay, another, just another, another wow, just to pause for a second, because again, I think a lot of 19 year olds would have said, hey, I have the cash. Thank you very much. But no, of course you did.

• 20:00Speaker 04

  I think I was, I was really lucky to have a coach who taught me from a very young age that it was never about the title or the medal. It was about the effort and the joy. And he preserved that my whole career. And I just remember in those hard conversations, having to remind myself of this, like, I know this is the right choice. And if I'm doing it for the money, for the title, for the fame, then it's the wrong, it's the wrong purpose. And so when I got through all those conversations, I felt like I was floating in the clouds. It was very hard, but I felt such a weight lifted off lifted off my shoulders. And it was because I went to 2012 to work and not compete that I actually met my husband. So it was, it was all meant to be.

• 20:41Hoda Kotb?

  Okay, first of all, that's beautiful. And I also, I think the relief, the warm hand on your heart, the, oh, my gosh, I just did it and I feel free. I think after every difficult conversation, probably think of any difficult, that may have been the most that you've ever had. But over the course of your life, it's like, I think anyone who's even like, I've got to tell my husband, I've got to tell my boss, I have to. The minute you say it, even if it's the hardest conversation, your shoulders drop like two or three inches and you feel... So to get on the other side of that is huge. I think we spend so much of our lives waiting for the big moments. The birthdays, the vacations, the milestones. But the truth is, some of the happiest moments show up on the most ordinary days.

• 21:26Hoda Kotb?

  So, like this, I'll stop into a CVS because I need one thing. Somehow, the best part of the trip is never the thing I came for. So, maybe I'll grab a delicious well-market snack, or maybe I'll wander over to the Joyward Collection. It's really full of fun, cool, seasonal decor, thoughtful little gifts, and those little discoveries that make you so glad you stopped in. I have to tell you, if you're an Extra Care member, you're going to save on things you're already buying, and those extra bucks really do add up. Just watching that total go down at the checkout never, ever gets old. I know life's busy, we're all juggling a lot, and that's why I think those little unexpected moments of joy matter so much.

• 22:11Hoda Kotb?

  So, the next time you're running errands, stop by your local CVS pharmacy. You may go in for something you need, but don't be surprised if you leave with something that simply makes your day a little brighter. Visit your local CVS pharmacy, sponsored by CVS. Halloween has a funny way of making you buy things you'd never normally buy. A ten-foot skeleton? Sure. A full-size fog machine? Why not? Three bags of candy that somehow become six bags of candy? It happens. Which brings me to the Chase Freedom Flex Card, the savvy decision that will earn you more cash back on the everyday purchases, plus the extraordinary Halloween tricks and treats.

• 22:52Hoda Kotb?

  With Freedom Flex, you earn even more treats on your Halloween and everyday needs. You get 5% cash back on popular rotating quarterly categories, 3% on dining and drug stores, and 1% on all other purchases. More ways to earn, more ways to get rewarded. That's no tricks, all treats. More ways to earn, more ways to get rewarded. Get rewarded. So sign up for the Chase Freedom Flex Card. Learn more at chase.com/getflex. This is a paid collaboration with Chase Freedom Flex. Cards issued by JP Morgan Chase Bank, N A. Member, FDIC. Subject to credit approval. Offer subject to change. Terms apply.

• 23:30Speaker 05

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• 24:00Speaker 03

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• 24:31Hoda Kotb?

  Okay, so you go for the Today Show, yay yay, to the Olympics to work it, and I remember that, too. So you're going along and you're doing, I think, commentating social media, a whole bunch of stuff, right? Okay, I remember that. And then, so how did this mystery meeting come to be?

• 24:50Speaker 04

  Yeah. One of the events that I was asked to go cover was a cycling event. And I was at this cycling event and I didn't know what I was watching. And they set me up with a USA cycling athlete, and his name was Guy East. And he wasn't competing, but he was there with his teammates. And I remember he was explaining everything to me and how cycling world worked and what I was watching. It was a very confusing sport. And I'm doing the social media thing. And I remember at the end of the event, he said, if you take anything away from our conversation, it said, I think you should meet my younger brother. And I was like, what? Like, this took a weird turn.

• 25:31Speaker 04

  Fast forward, I think probably five months, that younger brother, who is now my husband, flew out to LA while I was on Dancing with the Stars, and we went on a blind date. And I thought he was so adorable, but I didn't know how it would work. And he lived in Nashville. He was going to Vanderbilt. Fast forward a little bit longer, we went on a second date in Nashville. And I remember telling my mom, I was like, I think, I think this is the guy I'm gonna marry.

• 25:56Hoda Kotb?

  Really? So it must have been a little intimidating for the brother, Andrew, to fly out to Dancing with the Stars to go on a blind date with you. What was, was he awkward? Was it, was he, was he just, was he a cool customer? Like, what was he on the first day?

• 26:15Speaker 04

  No. He was the nerdiest, most awkward, most unfinessed human I had ever seen. And I think there was honestly something so endearing about it. I feel like coming from the Olympic world and coming from Dancing with the Stars in LA, I had seen such facades that were perfect for so long. And he was just so unapologetically himself and such a gentleman and knew nothing of Hollywood. He hadn't been on a plane before without his family. And I was like, I started traveling when I was 12. What do you mean? And it was just, it was so pure.

• 26:58Speaker 04

  And he could have just normal human conversations. He didn't ask a single thing about

• 27:05Speaker 04

  Olympics or gymnastics. He asked about like, me as a person, and I hadn't had that in a long time.

• 27:10Hoda Kotb?

  Wait, talk about what you-

• 27:12Speaker 04

  It was amazing.

• 27:12Hoda Kotb?

  I mean, talk about what you needed. I mean, again, like, I believe, just like you, like, things are meant to be, the world, I mean, you know. It worked out the way it was obviously supposed to. But you were in an interesting time because you had already stepped away from gymnastics and you're still kind of looking for your groove thing. You're like, you want something. So was he, being an outsider like that, I would imagine, I don't know, but was he sort of helpful? Because he saw all of you. He didn't see you as Shawn the gymnast, or Shawn the dancer, or whatever.

• 27:49Speaker 04

  Absolutely. I think he healed me, honestly. He let me be just me and not do anything. And I remember after, so we met in LA on Dancing with the Stars. There was a nine-month period before our second date. And after our second date, I think it took two months into dating before I moved to Nashville. And I ended up transferring to Vanderbilt with him. And I just, I did nothing. He let me be just a student and just a person and not chase all these titles anymore. And he rebuilt my confidence from the ground up at just being able to fail beautifully

• 28:30Speaker 04

  at everything and be completely average and that be celebrated. And he truly saw all these insecurities and one by one would address them and help me kind of heal from them, not be a perfectionist and elite athlete anymore.

• 28:45Hoda Kotb?

  By the way, that's a huge step because there are probably a ton of people listening who are perfectionists in one part of their life. To go from, I need to do it exactly right, to average is cool. I like being a student who gets, I don't know what you got. I got Bs and Cs in college. Who cares? It doesn't really matter at the end. But to be someone, how did that sit with you? Someone who's used to being disciplined, gotta get it, you know?

• 29:14Speaker 04

  I mean, it was very messy.

• 29:15Hoda Kotb?

  Yeah.

• 29:16Speaker 04

  I, I had a lot of good days and bad days. But I remember he would always talk to me and say, there's this person, me, that I see when we're at home and when we're on a date. And then all of a sudden you get in from, in front of a camera and it's like, you are a completely different person. And he said, if only the world got to see who you actually were. And that would just unlock all these things of, I was taught to perform. I was taught to be perfect because it was, I was trying to gain a subjective judge's opinion of me and try to make that the best. And, and it was uncomfortable and it was scary.

• 29:57Speaker 04

  And it, there are a lot of transitions and, and the workspace and, but it was slow and just beautiful. And he just held my hand through it.

• 30:08Hoda Kotb?

  You know what? I think you're, I mean, I, I always thought you were brave, but one of the bravest things you've just said is, after two months, you moved to Nashville. I mean, you just did it. Like, that's a leap of faith. That's scary. Some people would need some more assurances that this was gonna be something. I don't wanna uproot my life and go there. Tell me about that process.

• 30:31Speaker 04

  I always explained it as like, I started, I had to grow up at a very young age. So at 12, I remembered flying to Belgium for the first time by myself to compete for the United States. And, which is crazy, now that I'm a mom, I'm like 12? That's too young. But I, I had lived a lot of life and I was ready to find someone to share life with. And I remember when I met him and we had this like spark. I remember thinking, if I continue to travel the world and if I continue to live on the opposite side of the world from him or the country, I'm not giving it the best chance to see if it can become anything. And I remember thinking, I honestly have nothing to lose. Like, if I move to Nashville and we go on two more dates and say,

• 31:16Speaker 04

  this is not it, okay, I'll move somewhere else. Like, it's fine. And I just remember thinking, he's worth it to me to see if this can last. And I think I scared the crap out of him.

• 31:29Hoda Kotb?

  You were like, hi.

• 31:31Speaker 04

  I'm moving here. I'm going to your college. I'm moving down the street from you. I am really like putting myself in your world. But if it weren't for that, I don't think it would have worked. I I paused my life because that meant so much to me. And when I, when we secured that, and it took a couple of years, you know, to find really strong foundation, but it meant enough to me to take the leap of faith and it worked out because of it.

• 31:58Hoda Kotb?

  Well, no kidding. I love that you said he changed so much of you and rebuilt your confidence. I mean, that is epic. Why is he so wise? He was just a kid. Like, how was he that wise?

• 32:09Speaker 04

  I think, I mean, I think he's the greatest. So I think he's just amazing. And I don't even know if it came out as wisdom. I just think it was, it was just a kindness to be, you know, invested into the depth of someone. We always, my husband and I talk a lot about, I think the world really preaches and tries to encourage people to live and we say an inch deep and a mile wide anymore, that people aren't actually getting to know or people to their true depth or to feel seen. And he made me feel seen and especially coming from professional athletics where you don't need to be seen. You just need to perform. That was a new, a new concept for me.

• 32:51Hoda Kotb?

  Wow, beautiful. So you guys have beautiful children. You have a whole beautiful family.

• 32:57Hoda Kotb?

  And raising kids, and I was thinking about how you were raised and how you would choose to raise. And often as moms, I mean, I take some stuff from my mom that she, that she, you know, how she raised me and then some of the stuff I just left on the table. But what from your childhood did you take on and say, you know what, I want my kids to have these things? And what did you say, you know what, this isn't going to work for them?

• 33:23Speaker 04

  I would say both my husband and I were raised similarly in the athletic world from our parents and we're definitely using that where our parents never valued athletics.

• 33:33Hoda Kotb?

  Oh.

• 33:34Speaker 04

  They valued good humans over everything. And my mom, I have very vivid memories of she would beg me to skip gymnastics. Just quit it. Just don't do it anymore. It takes up too much time. I miss my daughter. I want to go shopping with you. I want to just play hooky one day. You know, it was, it was all these things of it just is taking too much of you. And my parents and Andrew's parents just taught us that athletics were our choice. As long as we were good humans and we had good values and kindness and respect to people, that's all that mattered and they loved us for who we were. We didn't have to earn that. So I always knew that that was my choice and I, I really want to make sure my children know that same thing.

• 34:19Speaker 04

  I don't care about titles. I don't care about placements. I don't care about, I just care that you try hard and you're a good human. And then if you want to go do whatever sport you want to do, I love that. I'll be your biggest cheerleader. Um, if there's anything that I would change, I would just say my, I'm an only child and I'm very type A. I was very driven. I was very much just a girl that could sit still and paint and color and draw. I have two very, very wild boys. Very wild boys. And I think the hands off, let me be the driver of everything that my parents embraced as a kid. I think we need a little bit more reining in with my boys.

• 35:02Speaker 04

  So have to be a little more stern with them than my parents probably were with me.

• 35:07Hoda Kotb?

  Can I, I'm, I'm just going to go back one more second to your child because I didn't know this about your mom, that she was like, don't do it. Quit. You're like, I'm not quitting. I'm doing it. So what was the motivation for a little kid? Cause I know kids like things until it's hard usually, and then they stop loving it. So what was pushing you all, all that time when you were little?

• 35:30Speaker 04

  Um, myself, which is crazy. And I don't, I had just this drive. My parents opened me up to every opportunity in life. They did such a beautiful job of that, especially, I mean, to be very honest, they didn't have the resources to do that. They, they extended themselves to make the universe just my playground. And so I tried so many things and very quickly would quit things like, don't like it, one practice and I'm done. I don't want to be there. But there was something about gymnastics that was intoxicating to me. And I think it has taught me, or it's given me a belief, maybe it's a delusional belief, that we all have one of those treasures inside of us.

• 36:11Speaker 04

  We just have to find it. Because there was no roadblock, no challenge too hard that I couldn't work through. I was so driven by it. And my coach was the same way. He's like, if you don't want to be here, you don't need to be here. So I just wanted to have fun.

• 36:27Hoda Kotb?

  My God, this is good. So wait, when you talked about, so you're raising kids, and when you were little, you were, your time was all spent, you know, doing what you were doing. What about childhood? Like, you kind of say, God, I kind of wish I was, I kind of wish I got to run wild a little bit. Or is that, is that not on your regret list?

• 36:48Speaker 04

  So, I mean, all of this sounds too good to be true. As I answer this, it's going to be crazy. But I don't feel like I missed anything in my childhood. I was very lucky. My coaches moved from China to the United States. They came from gymnastics in China where everything was taken from them as a child. They had to be a professional from a very young age, and they didn't get to have fun or be kids. And so their dream in moving to the United States was to open a gym and, and their words would say, raise children who get to be children, but also get to be good gymnasts. And so we did a very, very condensed training schedule. We had to go to full day of

• 37:31Speaker 04

  school. We, I got to attend every football game, every dance. My coaches would let us play. They preserved the joy and the childlike childhood for us. So all of my memories there. I remember running around playing capture the flag in my neighborhood. I had enough time to have friendships outside of the gym. I went to Dairy Queen and had stacks of pancakes after practice all the time. I truly had a childhood and I think that's because of my coaches.

• 38:04Hoda Kotb?

  That's really cool. So how do you raise your kids? Who's the disciplinarian? Who's the one who lets it fly?

• 38:10Speaker 04

  I am a hundred percent the disciplinarian. My husband lets everything fly. He's another child, which is so much fun, but it's crazy. And how do we raise them? We say, I don't know if this is gonna sound right, but we call it free range. We have very wild children who are very curious and very able and just love to run wild. And I have a four-year-old that races motocross.

• 38:37Hoda Kotb?

  Oh, my gosh.

• 38:37Speaker 04

  It's not, not the sport I would have chosen, but that is truly one of his treasures. It's like the kid came out riding a bike and a motorcycle. My dad rode professionally his whole life. And then my husband comes from a whole family of Olympic cyclists. So

• 38:55Hoda Kotb?

  It makes sense.

• 38:57Speaker 04

  It's in there. But we just, we raise them to have fun, to be good humans.

• 39:04Hoda Kotb?

  Wow.

• 39:04Speaker 04

  But to have fun.

• 39:05Hoda Kotb?

  Any gymnasts in the group?

• 39:08Speaker 04

  Um, I don't know. I would have said no about a month ago, but out of nowhere, my six-year-old has now asked to go back to the gym. So, and she's loving it, which is scaring me to death.

• 39:23Hoda Kotb?

  Why is that scaring you?

• 39:26Speaker 04

  Um, this is gonna get deep quickly, but I, I think the world naturally will put an unfair expectation on her. I think because mom was good, people will expect her to be good. And I don't think any child should be expected to be good at something. I think they should be able to fail and be terrible and be celebrated for it. So I just don't want too much pressure to be put on her. I want her to-

• 39:52Hoda Kotb?

  So you'll, if she wants to go that way, you'll say, alright, do it. But you're just, otherwise you're just kinda hands off to see what she's gonna do?

• 40:01Speaker 04

  Biggest cheerleader. I'm the mom in the stands watching, never anything more.

• 40:06Hoda Kotb?

  Do people freak out?

• 40:07Speaker 04

  Though in my mind, it's going crazy. My mind's like, oh my god.

• 40:09Hoda Kotb?

  You're like, please god.

• 40:11Speaker 04

  Play your jokes.

• 40:14Hoda Kotb?

  I know, just a little tip here, sweetie. You'll be ready, yeah, try that.

• 40:18Speaker 04

  Yeah. I remember she at one point asked my husband to teach her to do something in gymnastics and both of us started laughing. I was like, this is comical.

• 40:25Hoda Kotb?

  How much do they-

• 40:26Speaker 04

  You want him to do?

• 40:27Hoda Kotb?

  Do they get you? Do they get your whole deal and your husband's deal? Do they understand? Do they ever look at videos of you, of you at Beijing, Beijing and go, oh, that was mom?

• 40:35Speaker 04

  Yeah, not really. I think we're just, I think my daughter, being six, is just now getting glimpses and understanding of like, maybe the magnitude. But we also try not to flaunt anything. Because it's, we don't want them living in any type of shadow. It's their world now, it's not ours.

• 40:57Hoda Kotb?

  Yeah. So if people come up to you and say, are you Shawn Johnson? Do they go, what's happening with mom over there?

• 41:04Speaker 04

  Yeah, we, we get a lot of questions of, why don't they want a picture of me? Like, themselves? And I'm like, well, I don't know how to explain that. I'm like, mommy, someone watched mommy do gymnastics and-

• 41:20Speaker 04

  Yeah, I don't know how to explain it.

• 41:21Hoda Kotb?

  That's so cute. By the way, that's the cutest thing ever. Someone watched mommy do gymnastics in a beautiful...

• 41:28Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 41:29Hoda Kotb?

  I'm sorry. Beautiful statement. Well said. Which just explains your entire parenting right there. That's just how you go through. That is awesome. I think we spend so much of our lives waiting for the big moments. The birthdays, the vacations, the milestones. But the truth is, some of the happiest moments show up on the most ordinary days. So, like this, I'll stop into a CVS because I need one thing. Somehow, the best part of the trip is never the thing I came for. So, maybe I'll grab a delicious well-market snack. Or maybe I'll wander over to the Joyward Collection. It's really full of fun, cool, seasonal decor, thoughtful little gifts, and those little discoveries that make you so glad you stopped in. I have to tell you, if you're an Extra Care member,

• 42:14Hoda Kotb?

  you're going to save on things you're already buying, and those extra bucks really do add up. Just watching that total go down at the checkout never, ever gets old. I know, life's busy. We're all juggling a lot. And that's why I think those little unexpected moments of joy matter so much. So, the next time you're running errands, stop by your local CVS pharmacy. You may go in for something you need, but don't be surprised if you leave with something that simply makes your day a little brighter. Visit your local CVS pharmacy, sponsored by CVS. Halloween has a funny way of making you buy things you'd never normally buy. A 10-foot skeleton? Sure. A full-size fog machine? Why not?

• 42:58Hoda Kotb?

  Three bags of candy that somehow become six bags of candy? It happens. Which brings me to the Chase Freedom Flex Card, the savvy decision that will earn you more cash back on the everyday purchases, plus the extraordinary Halloween tricks and treats. With Freedom Flex, you earn even more treats on your Halloween and everyday needs. You get 5% cash back on popular rotating quarterly categories, 3% on dining and drugstores, and 1% on all other purchases. More ways to earn, more ways to get rewarded. That's no tricks, all treats. More ways to earn, more ways to get rewarded. So sign up for the Chase Freedom Flex Card. Learn more at chase.com/getflex. This is a paid collaboration with Chase Freedom Flex.

• 43:43Hoda Kotb?

  Cards issued by JP Morgan Chase Bank, N A. Member, F D I C. Subject to credit approval. Offer subject to change. Terms apply.

• 43:52Speaker 05

  Buick knows confidence changes how you move through the world. That's why Buick designs SUVs with striking style and was named the most dependable mass market brand by J D. Power. From the head turning Buick Invista to the seven passenger enclave. Experience the Buick SUV lineup at buick.com. Buick. Exceptional by design. Buick received the FUSE reported problems in its segment in the J D. Power 2025 2026 U S. Vehicle Dependability Studies based on 2022 2023 models. For J D. Power 2026 Award information, visit jdpower.com/awards.

• 44:22Speaker 03

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• 44:52Hoda Kotb?

  Can we talk about, first of all, your awesome book? I opened it to the back cover, which I'm sorry if that's not framed in your house somewhere. I'm going to be super mad. What a great picture of the two of you. It's called The Courage to Commit. And of course, I flipped immediately to this chapter on joy, chapter two, which I was into. And I was so struck by one of the things in it. And it says that you were asked, somebody, an audience member, asked you a question. The question was, you two live such structured lives. How do you make space for joy? And you spend that chapter talking about how confused we are about what joy actually is.

• 45:34Hoda Kotb?

  Because people don't think you can be disciplined and have joy. So explain that thought process.

• 45:44Speaker 04

  Yes, so we, the whole book is about like the depth of commitment. What happens when you actually start saying no to things and like filtering your life to things that actually matter? I think we're in the anxious generation where there is so much noise and so many voices and so many options that it can be crippling to people. I think people are being overwhelmed with decision fatigue and instead of choosing one thing or a couple of things, they're just not choosing anything at all. They're swiping, you know, swipe right culture. In this, the chapter of joy, we argue that joy is found in depth.

• 46:23Hoda Kotb?

  In depth, yeah.

• 46:23Speaker 04

  And you can't achieve depth without discipline. And I, and I mean that in the sense of, take parenting. It's not always joyful. It's very difficult. There are a lot of hard nights and hard days and hard phases. But the amount of joy you feel looking at this, this human that you've raised and gone through such hardship with and so many sleepless nights, that is a joy and a depth that you can't reach if you were just a parent for a day. Or a babysitter for a day, let's say that. And in our culture right now, I think the world is trying to preach that if you keep

• 47:07Speaker 04

  hopping from one honeymoon phase to another and just getting the dopamine hit of an instant gratification, that I think that is just instant happiness. That's not joy. So if you start structuring your life to really like invest time into something, I think you're going to be surprised at the immense, not happiness, but joy you feel.

• 47:30Hoda Kotb?

  Tell the difference, tell me the difference. I love the happiness and joy thing. And I know you, you talk about like butterflies, when you meet him and yay, and then after three years, you know, everyone gives the side eye. So it is, what's the difference there? For you.

• 47:45Speaker 04

  I think happiness is a momentary fleeting feeling emotion. I think joy is felt in your soul. And joy comes with pain.

• 47:59Speaker 04

  And I say that in the sense of like even in our, our marriage at our, on our wedding day, I had happiness. Because I was like, oh, this is so exciting. I'm so giddy. I love this guy. But after 10 years of marriage, we've gone through heartbreak and hard arguments and times where we've disappointed each other. But the amount of joy in my soul and my being that I feel when I look at that man is greater than anything I felt on our wedding day, but it's because of time and pain and the investment of it. That you, that compounds over time.

• 48:33Hoda Kotb?

  That's first of all, that's a, that's a beautiful statement. And I think some people might like sometimes when there are arguments and bad moments in relationships where, where, where if you're in one, you're going to have those, that's life.

• 48:45Speaker 04

  Yep.

• 48:45Hoda Kotb?

  Sometimes that's all people start seeing through that lens. And then the next thing comes and you go, well, there it goes again. And then all of the sudden, before you know it, you guys are, not you guys, but whoever's listening.

• 48:59Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 48:59Hoda Kotb?

  It's like parallel paths that kind of start peeling off in opposite directions. How did you make sure or ensure that your marriage stayed the course in the middle, even though you had all these potholes like, like all marriages do?

• 49:16Speaker 04

  Um, it's actually something we took a lot of time to write about. And it's how we try to approach life. It's a gift. I think we were given in athletics, which is back in gymnastics. If I was faced with a, a challenge, an injury, something I couldn't overcome, the yips, um, whatever it was. I would take that. I would look at that challenge and say, let's go find every tool we can find to help me overcome it. That's coaches, sports psychiatrists, dieticians. Do I need to take time off? Do I need to? And, and I would approach that challenge from every angle and say, how can I fix it?

• 49:59Speaker 04

  I think when it comes to relationships and marriage and parenting and things that are just happening in our daily life, we're operating as a culture in a way that says, if it's hard, it must not be right. Instead of going back to athletics and saying, oh, here's a challenge. How can I fix it? And so my husband and I, I think because we're both athletes, have a very shared perspective on this of if we hit a road bump, which we do all the time. It's like, what can we do to fix it? Who do we need to go find in the counseling world? What mentor should we bring in? What should we change in our routine? What should we change about ourselves?

• 50:44Speaker 04

  But it's always this active idea of how can we better it? And so in each chapter, we write about all the different factors and angles to attack a problem, whether it's your environment or your belief or your faith or your mentorships. How can you attack a problem? And I think it's just, it's just going against the cultural norm, but it works for us.

• 51:07Hoda Kotb?

  It does.

• 51:07Speaker 04

  I think it's why we have such a fruitful marriage now.

• 51:10Hoda Kotb?

  How do you, you know, you've changed since, obviously, Beijing, you've probably evolved 100 times over. Your husband's probably evolved 100 times over. I'm sure you guys have to reintroduce yourselves. Hi, I'm Sean. I don't like Applebee's anymore. I used to love it or whatever it is, you know, however, you know, but you always like that, but you always. How do you keep evolving? Because you can have a relationship where you're understanding, but you're different, he's different. How do you keep, you know, keep reintroducing yourself? If that's the right word.

• 51:45Speaker 04

  We learned a little trick from, he's a counselor. His name's John Deloney and he's a friend of ours. But he taught us this trick years ago of, in a very basic way, he said, never stop dating your spouse. And he means it in the sense of never stop asking questions because things always change. And he asks his spouse and his spouse asks him all the time for an updated resume, basically like. What's your current favorite color? Because that can change. What's your favorite food right now? Who's your best friend? And I think if we constantly approach our marriage like dating, like we did when we were dating,

• 52:27Speaker 04

  it's with so much curiosity as to where are you right now? And I've seen it with my husband. We go through phases of life where he's stressed or entranced with something new. Or like, it's constantly different and I'm constantly learning about him. And I think a lot of times people will get it wrong when they think that the marriage, like getting married is a finish line and now you just get to coast. When I think it's actually a starting line and it's a lot of work.

• 52:56Hoda Kotb?

  Beautiful. So, you know, there are a lot of little kids who I'm sure come up to you, which is I'm sure I can just imagine when you walk down like, oh, Sean, tell me, what, what, what, what's something that you would want? These little kids, the young girls who are coming up now, many of whom are wrapped up in social media, wrapped up in what do they think they want? You know, they're, it is performative often how they're living now, whether they're, you know, an athlete or somebody or not. What, what would you say to those kids who are probably needing joy and not really finding it?

• 53:36Speaker 04

  I would probably say what I say to my daughter now and my kids, which is, and this is like my personal belief, but it's that I think, I would say God has placed hidden treasures in every one of our hearts. And all of our treasures are different. Like my treasures are different than for my daughters, for my son, my other son. But it's the adventure of life to try to find them. And if you get lucky enough to find even one, you need to do everything in your power to protect it. And I say that because I had a conversation with my daughter once where she was like, what if I? I think she was talking about gymnastics, but she's like, what if I don't do gymnastics?

• 54:21Speaker 04

  And I was like, that's mommy's treasure. That doesn't have to be yours. You will find a treasure and it will light you up. And it should be different than everyone else's. But the hardship of life is the world will try to, will try to take your treasure from you or say it's not worth value or say it's not a good enough title. And it's your challenge in life to protect it. So I would, I would tell kids that just go on your adventure and try to find it. And if you can, you have to protect it with everything you've got.

• 54:56Hoda Kotb?

  By the way, you didn't just tell kids, you just told grownups. Because I think that's, I think there are plenty of grownups who are on, they're walking along this path. And it may be filled with potholes and kind of dusty. And they're maybe not realizing that there's actually a path that's just over this way. It's lush and green and full and has all of the things that they're way, that they want. But this one's easy because they've been on it and they don't know how to get off it. And this is where I've been. Sounds like you've done a great job of navigating your life, Sean. You are a delight, by the way, can I just say? I mean, I know I've interviewed you before, but not like this, not like this. This is so good. Please grab this book. It's called The Courage to Commit: Embracing the Radical Power of Sticking with Something.

• 55:40Hoda Kotb?

  Sean, wow. I mean, girl, I love the new you. All right, thank you.

• 55:46Speaker 04

  Oh, thank you.

• 55:46Hoda Kotb?

  All right, Sean, have a good one. Thank you.

• 55:50Hoda Kotb?

  Wow. I mean, as I just said to Sean, like I've spoken to her before, but never like that. I mean, I knew that she was a deep thinker. And I liked what she said about how a lot of people are very shallow. You know, not going wide, going deep is really what she's describing. And she spent her life going deep and trying to find ways to, to make everything better in her relationships with her kids. I was, I'm so turned on, like I am, I'm just on fire for what Sean Johnson East is serving up. She reminded me that like other chapters in life are possible and they're full of love and joy. I mean, imagine if you hit your peak at six

• 56:35Hoda Kotb?

  At least in one profession, then what? And she just proved, and you can see it in her eyes if you're watching the podcast, and you can hear it in her voice, she's full of joy. She's in a beautiful chapter in her life. And she's growing, she's deepening her understanding, her spirituality, her life, all those things. It was beautiful. My cup's full, man. My cup is full. So anyway, let me just close. This is a quote. I like to close with like a quote or a poem. And there was something about this that struck me, and it's a simple quote, and it says, "She was never quite ready, but she was brave, and the universe listens to brave. The universe listens to brave."

• 57:19Hoda Kotb?

  So for all of us, as we are going through transitions in life, we don't always have to be ready. We just have to be brave. "She was never quite ready, but she was brave, and the universe listens to brave." That's by Rebecca Rae. Thanks, you guys, for listening. I've realized that joy doesn't always come from those big moments. Sometimes you find it on the most ordinary day. I'll pop into a CVS for toothpaste or paper towels, and it never seems to be just a quick errand. Maybe I'll grab a delicious Well Market Trail Mix or wander over to the Joyward Collection. That's part of the fun. So the next time you're checking something off your to-do list, stop by your local CVS pharmacy. You might go in for one thing and leave with a little more joy.

• 58:03Hoda Kotb?

  Visit your local CVS pharmacy, sponsored by CVS.

• 58:07Speaker 05

  Buick knows confidence changes how you move through the world. That's why Buick designs SUVs with striking style and was named the most dependable mass market brand by J.D. Power. From the head-turning Buick Invista to the seven-passenger Enclave, experience the Buick SUV lineup at buick.com. Buick, exceptional by design. Buick received the few reported problems in its segment in the J.D. Power 2025-2026 U.S. Vehicle Dependability Studies, based on 2022-2023 models. For J.D. Power 2026 award information, visit JDpower.com/awards.

• 58:37Speaker 03

  If you're a fight fan and you haven't seen the BKFC app yet, you're missing the world's most exciting combat sport, bare-knuckle fighting championship.

• 58:45Speaker 03

  Has changed the game. No gloves, no stalling, no boring rolling around on the ground. Just pure violence and pure entertainment. The BKFC app includes live events, past fights, original series, behind the scenes access, merch discounts and more. Only $7.99 a month or $49.99 a year. Get the BKFC app at BKFC.com.

• 59:07Speaker 01

  This is an iHeart Podcast. Guaranteed human.