The Next Miata Might Be a Toyota? EV Tax Credit Killed, End of Cheap Electric Cars?

Have a question you want answered on the podcast next week? Ask HERE https://crsnbds.com/PODQUESTIONS Welcome to THIS CAR POD! Doug DeMuro & Friends offers weekly expert insight and opinion, on the breaking automotive stories, the car market, and audience Q&A. Thank you to our sponsors! Every Plate - Go to ⁠https://everyplate.com/podcast and use code CARS199 to get started. Applied as discount on first box, limited time only. Acre Gold - https://getacregold.com/ LISTEN HERE - Spotify - https://spotify.link/RHKZoB8ebIb Apple Podcasts - https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/this-car-pod-with-doug-demuro-friends/id1737487546 NEW MERCH! https://merch.carsandbids.com FOLLOW CARS & BIDS! YouTube - @carsandbids Instagram - https://www.instagram.com/carsandbids/ TikTok - https://www.tiktok.com/@cars_and_bids Twitter - https://twitter.com/carsandbids FOLLOW ME! Twitter - http://www.twitter.com/dougdemuro Instagram - http://www.instagram.com/dougdemuro Facebook - http://www.facebook.com/ddemuro CHAPTERS 00:00:00 THIS CAR POD! 00:00:11 The Death Of The Lexus LS 00:03:39 Mazda and Toyota To Build New Sportscar 00:07:13 The Acura ZDX Is Dead 00:10:26 The New Porsche Cayenne EV 00:16:36 JLR Is Back... Kind Of 00:19:22 Federal EV Incentive Is Dead 00:25:54 Ford Sells More Mustangs Outside US 00:28:40 Talk Cars 00:28:54 The Countach Is Back From Service 00:36:36 The 993 Turbo Situation 00:42:08 Cars and Coffee At Petit Le Mans 00:44:54 Filippo Wants A Boxster 00:51:14 Market Report 00:51:39 Ferrari California Values 00:54:37 BMW E60 M5 Values 00:58:36 And A Jeep Grand Cherokee 01:01:47 BMW Z3 M Roadster Values 01:09:32 Doug's Generations Of Viper 01:10:23 Community Questions 01:11:58 Was Doug's Wife Concerned About The Carrera GTs Widowmaker Reputation? 01:14:02 What's the Deepest Doug Car? 01:16:48 If The C63 Was Never A V8 Would The 4 Cylinder Still Get Hate? 01:18:45 Would The FJ Cruiser Work Today? 01:20:48 Do Enthusiasts Lose Respect For Buying An Automatic? 01:22:07 What Cars Say You Really Know Your Stuff? 01:25:48 When Do Normal Cars Become Enthustiast Cars? Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Speaker 00

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• 0:31Speaker 01

  Hey, listen!

• 0:32Speaker 02

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• 0:44Speaker 02

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• 0:53Speaker 02

  The Legend of Zelda: Ocarina of Time, a Nintendo Switch 2 exclusive. Game and system sold separately. Game rated everyone 10 and up.

• 1:04Doug DeMuro?

  Hello and welcome to This Car Pod! I'm Kenan. I'm Filippo. And there's a lot to cover today. Let's start with the news. The big news of the week, the Lexus LS is dead. Yeah, big news of the week, huh? Let me tell you something. It was the Jaguar XJ first. Okay. Well, because big, full-size luxury sedans- First they came for the Jaguar XJ. First they came for the Jaguar XJ. Full-size luxury sedans used to be a big deal. Yeah. Like, when I was a kid, there was no luxury SUVs, which obviously all these buyers are buying now. They're buying Range Rovers and all that. There was none of that. And a big luxury sedan was how you told people that, like, you had made it. That was the flagship. It was the flagship of the brand, and it was the flagship, it was like what people wanted to be seen in. Flagship of status.

• 1:47Doug DeMuro?

  A big-body Mercedes, Princess Diana, like, if you were a mover and a shaker, you had a full-size luxury sedan. Sure. The XJ's gone. Jaguar doesn't make one anymore. Nope. The Lexus LS, which was a segment pioneer, really, in a lot of ways, that's now gone. The Audi A8 is next. Mark. Oh, I got it. How many Lexus LSs do you think they sold last year? 20,000.

• 2:10Speaker 04

  I'm sorry.

• 2:11Doug DeMuro?

  11,000.

• 2:12Speaker 04

  I'm sorry.

• 2:12Doug DeMuro?

  6100.

• 2:13Speaker 04

  Uh, 2163.

• 2:15Doug DeMuro?

  Wow.

• 2:16Speaker 04

  By the way, the, the, the data that I'm-

• 2:17Doug DeMuro?

  What was the best?

• 2:18Speaker 04

  I don't have it before 2005. Uh, this is from Good Car.

• 2:21Doug DeMuro?

  Well, what was it, what was it in 05?

• 2:22Speaker 04

  In 05 was 26,000.

• 2:24Doug DeMuro?

  What was it in 08? That was the new-

• 2:25Speaker 04

  In 08 was 20,000. And, and, and 07 was 35,000.

• 2:28Doug DeMuro?

  Okay, so that was like-

• 2:29Speaker 04

  So we're like, we're like-

• 2:30Doug DeMuro?

  10%. 10% of it. It's a trickle. The market is no longer registering these cars and it's crazy to imagine like, it, it's, it's funny because we've watched some of these automakers pull out of some of these once popular segments, right? The Ford Fusion and the Chevy Malibu, like mid-sized sedans.

• 2:43Speaker 04

  Fab, but true.

• 2:44Doug DeMuro?

  And, and what happens when that happens is it leaves behind only the, the esteemed players, minivans, right? People backed out of minivans and only left the Odyssey and the Chrysler.

• 2:52Speaker 04

  Yep.

• 2:53Doug DeMuro?

  And that's gonna happen here too. And it will leave, there will always be an S-Class, but there will not always be the fringe cars, like the, the, the not, you know.

• 3:00Speaker 04

  Do you think there'll always be a 7 Series?

• 3:02Doug DeMuro?

  I really don't think BMW should keep putting money into that car.

• 3:06Speaker 04

  Yep.

• 3:06Doug DeMuro?

  I don't know why they do it. I don't understand it.

• 3:09Speaker 04

  Heritage, I think that might be the only reason.

• 3:10Doug DeMuro?

  They're still probably making money on it and they still sell in Europe, whereas this car doesn't have a Europe to sell to.

• 3:15Speaker 04

  And China. Keep China in mind. Large sedans do well there. I don't think Lexus has any presence there.

• 3:21Doug DeMuro?

  Yeah, but, uh, it's gone. That's the end.

• 3:24Speaker 04

  There's a 2026, like final-

• 3:26Doug DeMuro?

  There's a, they're doing a final runout model, special edition thing to commemorate the end. If they really cared, they would do it with the same wheels as the oldie.

• 3:34Speaker 04

  Yeah, that, that actually would be pretty cool. Stronger than the 1990's version.

• 3:38Doug DeMuro?

  You know what the irony-

• 3:39Speaker 04

  It is the Heritage Edition, by the way.

• 3:40Doug DeMuro?

  You know what the irony is? I truly mean this. The best LS.

• 3:45Speaker 04

  It's the newest LS.

• 3:46Doug DeMuro?

  Those beaker grills? I love this car. It's just that the market doesn't exist for it anymore. The market just doesn't exist for it anymore.

• 3:53Speaker 04

  But if you wanna buy a used one, I got a plate for you to do it.

• 3:56Doug DeMuro?

  Dude, go on the site. We've sold some of that LS 500. Type in LS space 500.

• 4:01Speaker 04

  They're so cheap.

• 4:02Doug DeMuro?

  Or LS with, yeah. 33 Gs, this was a year ago, 42.5. These are incredibly impressive cars to own and operate. Click on that one. Look at that interior.

• 4:13Speaker 04

  I know, if it has the speaker grills, they're so cool. It's a beautiful interior.

• 4:16Doug DeMuro?

  Remember how they had folded cloth on the door panels?

• 4:19Speaker 04

  Yup.

• 4:19Doug DeMuro?

  I'm telling you, this is a really nice car that's going to last forever. And we're selling them in the 30s, which also speaks to the market demand.

• 4:26Speaker 04

  When did this car come out, 2018?

• 4:28Doug DeMuro?

  Yeah, 18.

• 4:29Speaker 04

  So it's also, we're also on year seven of the life cycle. This is time to.

• 4:32Doug DeMuro?

  It was time to either redesign or end, and we weren't going to redesign.

• 4:35Speaker 04

  It was.

• 4:36Doug DeMuro?

  Toyota has the crown. They got the crown, and that really does it all. Okay, speaking of dead things, next news story. Ah, this isn't a dead thing.

• 4:44Speaker 04

  No.

• 4:44Doug DeMuro?

  We got a bunch of dead news.

• 4:45Speaker 04

  We got a bunch of dead things. Okay, there was a report this week that for the next generation Mazda Miata, the NE, and the next generation Scion Toyota 86 FRS, whatever they call it now, they, Mazda and Toyota are going to partner on this next generation two-seat sports car.

• 5:04Doug DeMuro?

  The Mazda Miata will be a Toyota GR86 BRZ Scion FRS.

• 5:10Speaker 04

  So the way that this report was framed was basically that GR Toyota will partner with Mazda on it. But really Mazda is developing the car. Toyota will sell it. The GR like management has made really clear that they are capable of building their own cars. They are capable of developing their own cars, but that they also think there's more room for some partnerships.

• 5:31Doug DeMuro?

  Well, and Toyota has a stake in Mazda.

• 5:34Speaker 04

  It sounds right.

• 5:35Doug DeMuro?

  Toyota has Toyota's stake in Mazda.

• 5:37Speaker 04

  Toyota has a stake in everything.

• 5:39Doug DeMuro?

  No.

• 5:39Speaker 04

  Subaru, it's.

• 5:40Doug DeMuro?

  No, they own, they own part of Mazda. Toyota owns, give me it on AI, 5.1%. There is a reason to have a partnership. It makes sense. Here's one question I have. Does this mean we're done with BRZ? Are we just admitting it's over?

• 5:51Speaker 04

  Let's talk about it.

• 5:52Doug DeMuro?

  Hey now, hey now.

• 5:54Speaker 04

  Nice. This is what dreams are made of?

• 5:56Doug DeMuro?

  Don't dream it's over.

• 5:57Speaker 04

  Alright.

• 5:57Doug DeMuro?

  It'll be sad.

• 5:59Speaker 04

  Are you aware that the, starting in 2026, the BRZ, the base BRZ is $5,000 more than the base GR86? And are you aware that the base BRZ, starting in 2026, is more expensive than a base Mustang?

• 6:11Doug DeMuro?

  Okay, Mustang MSRP is 34 for an EcoBoost, the BRZ starts at 35.8. Yeah, so a Mustang is cheaper than a BRZ, but what's the why?

• 6:21Speaker 04

  Content differences, Subaru is cutting out their premium trim, which is their base trim. And it's only gonna have limited and the other one.

• 6:29Doug DeMuro?

  I gotta tell you though, on base to base, I might prefer a BRZ.

• 6:34Speaker 04

  But wouldn't you spend, if you were going for the base model, wouldn't you spend five grand less and just get?

• 6:37Doug DeMuro?

  Probably, but, but, but, okay, fine, like 35 grand is my number, base Mustang or a really nice BRZ. The BRZ drives really well.

• 6:45Speaker 04

  But it's also such a smaller, less powerful vehicle.

• 6:47Doug DeMuro?

  Well, I would get a GR86.

• 6:48Speaker 04

  Right, for 30.

• 6:49Doug DeMuro?

  Because it's, it's becoming clear to me that Subaru maybe doesn't want to be a part of this anymore.

• 6:53Speaker 04

  It's also their only non-all-wheel drive car?

• 6:55Doug DeMuro?

  They should make a Daihatsu.

• 6:56Speaker 04

  They should.

• 6:57Doug DeMuro?

  Because Toyota owns all those brands, or has a stake, I don't want to say owns, has a stake in Mazda, Subaru, and Daihatsu.

• 7:03Speaker 04

  Yep.

• 7:04Doug DeMuro?

  They should do a Daihatsu version. Right, with their great sporting lineage, they definitely should add to it.

• 7:08Speaker 04

  And where are they selling the Daihatsu version that matters to us?

• 7:11Doug DeMuro?

  It matters to us? First off, the whole world matters to us. I want to say hello to our readers in Senegal. Watchers. Bonjour. Yeah.

• 7:21Doug DeMuro?

  Look at that 993 turbo model. We'll come back to it.

• 7:24Speaker 04

  But regardless, the, the next generation, I, I expected the next generation Mazda Miata will be a true successor to this Mazda Miata. Just the GR86 will, I think, feel different than it does right now because it'll be built in partnership.

• 7:36Doug DeMuro?

  I'm cool with this, these cars make sense to pair up, the, obviously, the big difference, and I'm curious how they'll address this, is the coupe convertible thing. Now, the Supra is a coupe and the Z4 is a convertible, so maybe that's just what they'll do again.

• 7:47Speaker 04

  Right. Who knows?

• 7:49Doug DeMuro?

  Maybe the Toyota version will be better. It's interesting and it makes sense and I, and I'm here for it. These are two of the greatest driving, affordable, lightweight, rear-wheel-drive cars in existence. Might as well put them together.

• 8:00Speaker 04

  You know what nobody cared about? The Fiat 124, which was also a Miata.

• 8:03Doug DeMuro?

  Well, it was uglier with a worse powertrain.

• 8:06Speaker 04

  Yeah. Well, that's that.

• 8:09Doug DeMuro?

  And it had that horrible body line on the front fender.

• 8:11Speaker 04

  It did have that. It was a rough.

• 8:13Doug DeMuro?

  Give us the next thing. This is a dead news story. The Acura ZDX is dead.

• 8:17Speaker 04

  Been around for like a year. Now is it dead already?

• 8:19Doug DeMuro?

  I want to say something about this. Yeah, it came out. We like barely covered its arrival a year ago.

• 8:26Speaker 04

  But why would we have? Who cares?

• 8:28Doug DeMuro?

  Yeah.

• 8:28Speaker 04

  I think we moved very quickly through it, if we're honest.

• 8:31Doug DeMuro?

  It's actually kind of funny because it was only on sale for one model year. The new ZDX was even a bigger failure than the old ZDX, which is hard to believe because the old ZDX was like famously a failure. It's like it's like known as like a famous automotive failure, even though it looks exactly like a Model Y.

• 8:47Speaker 04

  You see a lot of ZDXs near Acura dealerships in places where low lease deals are attractive.

• 8:53Doug DeMuro?

  Yeah, I mean, that was the only way they could get rid of these was low lease deals. And today, which we'll cover in a second, the EV incentive, the federal EV incentive is gone. And not coincidentally, Acura has announced that the ZDX is no longer a sale. You're going to see some of these EVs come off the market with the end of the federal incentive because the only way some of these cars was selling was incentivized lease deals. And the automaker themselves cannot afford to prop up leases at that level.

• 9:16Speaker 04

  I think the interesting thing here is obviously the ZDX, for people that don't know, is based on the Blazer EV. The Blazer EV is also the Honda Prologue is also a Blazer EV. So I agree they didn't invest that much effort in building this car. I mean, they restyled it. The interior is extra different. I think the interior still uses GM's infotainment in part.

• 9:33Doug DeMuro?

  Yeah, oh, yeah.

• 9:34Speaker 04

  So they didn't go all in on building an EV. It'll be interesting to see what their takeaway is. Is it about the EV market? Is it about not having a competitive entrant in the EV market? Is it maybe we shouldn't use a Blazer EV as our base?

• 9:44Doug DeMuro?

  Honda told me straight up that Prologue is named that because it's like the prologue to what will be great EVs in the future.

• 9:49Speaker 04

  Is the ZDX what will be a great EV in the future?

• 9:51Doug DeMuro?

  I'm just disappointed. This is another example of my Honda rant from a few weeks ago. I'm just disappointed at the level, at the approach they're taking to these new segments. They just seem so committed to their core that they're afraid to try anything or do anything. And they've been developing this EV with Panasonic.

• 10:08Speaker 04

  They have the Aphila, which is Sony.

• 10:11Doug DeMuro?

  Aphila.

• 10:11Speaker 04

  The Sony Aphila is a Honda Sony collaboration.

• 10:14Doug DeMuro?

  But it's taken. Years.

• 10:16Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 10:17Doug DeMuro?

  We're all waiting. Prologue is gonna be epilogue here in a minute.

• 10:20Speaker 05

  Nice, nice.

• 10:22Speaker 04

  Nice.

• 10:22Speaker 05

  I've been thinking about that all week.

• 10:23Speaker 04

  Nowhere to go after that.

• 10:25Doug DeMuro?

  Yeah, no, I don't know. It's an interesting, it is an interesting situation. You're gonna see some of these EVs coming off the market after the EV incentive goes away. This is just the first casualty.

• 10:34Speaker 04

  The ZDX looks good, though.

• 10:35Doug DeMuro?

  It looks good. It is good. It is a good car.

• 10:38Speaker 04

  The Blazer EV is a good EV.

• 10:39Doug DeMuro?

  It's just too expensive and not particularly compelling and, you know, too expensive for the range and performance that it offers. It's hard to justify without significant incentives. And Acura was throwing in a bunch of cash on it, as was the federal government. Now, if some of it's gone away, Acura can't fill the rest of the hole. The car is gone.

• 10:55Speaker 04

  Yep.

• 10:55Doug DeMuro?

  We will not miss it.

• 10:56Speaker 05

  Wow, one model.

• 10:57Speaker 04

  We won't miss it.

• 10:57Doug DeMuro?

  And I'll tell you, this is gonna become like the Blackwood. Like, we're gonna, in 10 years, we're gonna be like, I saw a ZDX today.

• 11:03Speaker 05

  There are a lot, that's a great point. There are a lot of those.

• 11:05Doug DeMuro?

  Yeah.

• 11:06Speaker 04

  Such a good point. Speaking of, when was the last time you saw an original ZDX?

• 11:11Doug DeMuro?

  Uh.

• 11:11Speaker 04

  That's not that old a car.

• 11:13Doug DeMuro?

  Rarely. No, it was like 9, 10, 11. Rarely.

• 11:16Speaker 04

  I would freak out.

• 11:17Doug DeMuro?

  Better car. You'd freak out?

• 11:19Speaker 04

  I would.

• 11:19Doug DeMuro?

  Wow. You remember the Honda version?

• 11:22Speaker 04

  The Honda, Accord Crosshair was not related to ZDX.

• 11:26Doug DeMuro?

  Alright, go to our next news story.

• 11:27Speaker 04

  I get why you think that, but you know better.

• 11:29Doug DeMuro?

  Another car that's dead.

• 11:30Speaker 04

  No, I'm kidding.

• 11:31Doug DeMuro?

  This is very much alive.

• 11:32Speaker 05

  It's very much alive.

• 11:33Speaker 04

  For now.

• 11:33Speaker 05

  The new Cayenne EV. This is pretty exciting, I have to say.

• 11:37Doug DeMuro?

  Is it?

• 11:37Speaker 04

  We've been talking about how unexcited we are about the Cayenne EV.

• 11:40Speaker 05

  It's cool.

• 11:41Speaker 04

  I made you both watch the video, but no, I've not watched the video.

• 11:44Doug DeMuro?

  Right, I've watched the video.

• 11:45Speaker 05

  It's cool. It's cool. It's great.

• 11:46Doug DeMuro?

  There's this German fella who's on YouTube. Not me, by the way.

• 11:50Speaker 04

  It's a well-known German publication, by the way.

• 11:53Doug DeMuro?

  Yeah, it goes auto-build or auto-whatever. They go through it.

• 11:56Speaker 04

  It's not auto-build, it's another one.

• 11:56Doug DeMuro?

  I don't participate in German language, okay?

• 11:59Speaker 04

  Can't help but out.

• 12:00Doug DeMuro?

  I only know about Berlin.

• 12:02Speaker 04

  Oh.

• 12:02Doug DeMuro?

  And Frankfurt and Cologne.

• 12:04Speaker 05

  Okay. He can name cities. That's the extent of his German language ability.

• 12:09Speaker 04

  I was hoping he would start with Cologne and just go through the engines, but.

• 12:13Doug DeMuro?

  This thing looks cool as hell. Do you have the interior picture?

• 12:16Speaker 05

  Uh, yes. The, so the big talking point about the car is the screen in the middle. Which, to my understanding, you can have a couple of different options. This is the full screen. You can have less screen if you want. Specifically, he mentioned American buyers would be interested in that. But it has a bend in it. It flows.

• 12:30Doug DeMuro?

  The screen is literally curved.

• 12:32Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 12:32Doug DeMuro?

  Yeah. Curved.

• 12:33Speaker 05

  And it's OLED, which is awesome. So it's, I think that is so cool.

• 12:38Doug DeMuro?

  It's so cool. It is so legitimate. Also, I think the car looks good. They haven't revealed photos. I don't understand this.

• 12:44Speaker 04

  I don't understand how this video exists.

• 12:46Speaker 05

  It's like a few videos.

• 12:47Speaker 04

  Autofold is like a real German like.

• 12:50Doug DeMuro?

  There are a few videos already about it. And, and, but there's not like good press photos yet. Like this photo. The previous photo doesn't really show how the car looks. I can tell you though, I'm kind of surprised. It looks nice. And this is the first to me.

• 13:02Speaker 04

  I'm sorry, Porsche designers.

• 13:03Doug DeMuro?

  No, no. I think the Cayenne has always looked nice, truly, even the 03. But I see I'm surprised because since 11, the Cayenne has basically looked the same. They've done redesigns that to me looked like facelifts if we're gonna really call it what it is. And honestly, it's gotten uglier with each iteration. This one looks different and it looks good. The rear end I like. The rear end is cool. The side profile is cool. The performance powertrain must be insane.

• 13:28Speaker 05

  It was crazy. So this was the turbo model that he reviewed and it had, you know, 1,000 horsepower and 1,005 Newton meters of torque.

• 13:34Speaker 04

  1,000 horsepower. Porsche has gone to 1,000? Damn.

• 13:36Speaker 05

  That's what I remember. That's what I remember. That's what he said.

• 13:38Doug DeMuro?

  Take that flat.

• 13:39Speaker 05

  But it did zero to 60 in less than, it's like, it's like less than three seconds.

• 13:43Speaker 04

  Yeah, you should be fast enough.

• 13:45Speaker 05

  Cause I'm trying to remember, cause it was all in kilometers per hour.

• 13:47Doug DeMuro?

  The base model 500 horsepower, the turbo will exceed 1,000 horsepower.

• 13:50Speaker 05

  It was nuts. He hit it on the Autobahn. It was wild.

• 13:54Speaker 04

  Zero to 60 in under three seconds. Are we excited about the, the Cayenne electric now?

• 13:58Doug DeMuro?

  No, it's not gonna sell well. I mean, it's not gonna sell well. It's gonna be radically overpriced and it's gonna be a total flop. But I'm, I'm more into it than I was. And I'll tell you this, I loved the Macani V. I think it, I think the volume expectations are too high. I think there's a lot of mistakes around that car. However, it drove fantastically. And I bet this will be even better.

• 14:18Speaker 04

  And it'll be a great luxury SUV too. Cause Porsche makes a good luxury SUV.

• 14:21Speaker 05

  I mean, like I said, even I liked it. Like they, they had some manual controls in here, which I like for basic things. And like, I, I also thought the other thing to talk about is that it has inductive charging. What car other than?

• 14:32Doug DeMuro?

  It does?

• 14:32Speaker 05

  Yes, yes. It has inductive charging, a huge pad that you can drive over and it will charge it.

• 14:36Speaker 04

  Slowly.

• 14:37Speaker 05

  Well, but it has it. I mean, the only other car I could, the only other car I could think of that has this is the McLaren Speedtail. So I think that's amazing that what will be a mass-produced car will have that.

• 14:46Doug DeMuro?

  What I've always been told. From every automaker I've asked the question to is the, the, the car requires too much charging and it can't be done. There's heat, there's loss. It doesn't work like your phone. The car has so much more energy requirements than your phone that inductive charging doesn't work. And maybe there, maybe it will. I'm very curious to see how it works. I, it'll be hot, I bet.

• 15:07Speaker 05

  Oh, yeah. Well, yes. And if, but if the Germans feel that it can be done, then there must be something to it. But I think that, that's one of the big talking points about the car.

• 15:17Speaker 04

  Can I say something that Kenan you said before we started filming today? Which was you were excited by the configurability of the menus.

• 15:23Speaker 05

  Yes. So on the menu.

• 15:24Speaker 04

  No, I don't want to know more. I just wanted people to know that you specifically said that.

• 15:28Speaker 05

  I thought it was cool because like this little section tilts. And so if you are like in maps or whatever, you can slide up and choose a bunch of different things to, that you can adjust down here, climate controls or whatever. And from the top also, you can do the same thing.

• 15:40Speaker 04

  I've never thought that. See the day when Kenan was excited about.

• 15:43Speaker 05

  Well, the integration of it is really nice. And the fact, again, I just love that.

• 15:46Doug DeMuro?

  I'm excited about the whole car. We've talked on this podcast before about how we are car enthusiasts and are not the biggest fan of EVs in the enthusiast space. However, for a luxury vehicle, for a luxury SUV, an EV is a perfectly fine thing. And Porsche, the Taycan was excellent. The Macan EV is excellent. The market is not necessarily there. But the cars have been great. And I think this is, looks like a fantastic array. Very curious to see how it actually is. 27, they say, is the model year. So we'll see it next year.

• 16:13Speaker 05

  Totally. I also like that it's slightly longer than the gas version. I thought that was kind of an interesting.

• 16:18Speaker 04

  But it fits the luxury thing.

• 16:20Speaker 05

  Oh, third row dreams.

• 16:21Speaker 04

  Oh, wow. Although there's supposed to be a larger SUV from Porsche coming.

• 16:24Doug DeMuro?

  Yeah, supposedly. We'll see.

• 16:26Speaker 05

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• 17:09Speaker 05

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• 17:36Doug DeMuro?

  Uh, next news story, please. Ah, speaking of dead.

• 17:39Speaker 04

  We, we spoke a couple of weeks ago about how Jaguar Land Rover is in the middle of this like IT nightmare situation. They were hacked, held for ransom. They had to shut down all of their UK factories. They couldn't pay any suppliers. They ju- we have good news. We have two pieces of good news.

• 17:57Doug DeMuro?

  Okay.

• 17:58Speaker 04

  One is that last week, the UK government backstopped two billion dollars in loans. Uh, 1.5 billion pounds, two, two billion dollars just about in loans for, for Jaguar Land, uh, Land Rover. They might be seeking two billion additional dollars from private banks. This was money from private bank backed up by the government. So they have money now. They have run out of money because they couldn't build cars. Also, after being shut down since August 29th or August 30th, they were able to restart some of their computer systems and they could pay their suppliers once again.

• 18:31Doug DeMuro?

  Huh.

• 18:31Speaker 04

  Which is good because otherwise the suppliers would all have gone out of business because they need the revenue every month to, you know, pay employees.

• 18:37Doug DeMuro?

  Okay, so they're going to take the money from this loan and use it to pay suppliers that are not currently supplying?

• 18:43Speaker 04

  Well, no, they are still supplying, just there's no factories going, there's no cars going through the, the.

• 18:47Doug DeMuro?

  Well, okay, I would argue then that they're not currently.

• 18:50Speaker 04

  The, the UK government, the, the British government's biggest concern was that a bunch of smaller companies in Britain would not get paid, would not be able to pay their employees and would have like a cascading effect. Because obviously automakers rely heavily on other suppliers. They're not actually vertically integrated with a couple of exceptions. And so they rely heavily on those and they need to pay those for the part that they receive.

• 19:10Doug DeMuro?

  Right.

• 19:11Speaker 04

  Or for other R and D work that's happening or whatever it may be. And they've also, by the way, restarted production partially.

• 19:18Doug DeMuro?

  Oh, really? Yep. So maybe this is the end of that story. You know what this teaches us? And all they do is owe a couple billion dollars to government. You know what this teaches us? No computers. Go back to typewriters and smoking in offices.

• 19:29Speaker 05

  Go back to the Mad Men era.

• 19:31Doug DeMuro?

  Yeah. No computers. What do you think of that? I am not in favor of that. We run a company that is pretty driven by computers. Oh, I forgot. I forgot. This is the problem with this podcast. I'm not able to freely think because Cars and Bids is always, it's always up there. You know, I also mean, we are on computers. People are watching this on their computer. To the computerless age, and I'm saying that, I'm giving that great opinion. But Cars and Bids comes in and says, no, no, we need computers to function.

• 20:00Speaker 05

  You want to build stuff like we do with the Countach?

• 20:03Doug DeMuro?

  We got to make a pod where we can just say what we think. But then how are people going to get it if they're anti-computer?

• 20:07Speaker 05

  They'll come, they'll stand in the square and they'll go, here, here, here.

• 20:11Doug DeMuro?

  The podcast from the town square. What an idea. Which the state of California has ruled is like the Target parking lot slash the grocery store parking lots. Right. Modern town square. Uh, the modern town square. Uh, okay, that's interesting. It'll be interesting to see how that goes. Of course, this is the biggest news story of the week. Glad we put it seventh.

• 20:28Speaker 00

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• 21:00Doug DeMuro?

  What a federal EV incentive is gone. We're filming this on the, on Wednesday, October 1st. Wednesday, October 1st. It is D-Day. No, no, yesterday, yeah, I, I don't, yes, maybe. If you manufacture bad electric cars, this is D-Day.

• 21:15Speaker 04

  In general, okay, here's where things get into, I agree. So there's, for a long time, the federal government has been offering incentives of up to $7,500 to, for, towards purchases of EVs.

• 21:26Doug DeMuro?

  Yeah.

• 21:26Speaker 04

  These were income tested, so you had, if you were making above a certain amount of money, you could not, you were not qualified, but leases, which are not sold to you, are sold to the leasing company, did qualify.

• 21:38Doug DeMuro?

  Did you know that?

• 21:39Speaker 04

  There were a bunch of rules, right? The vehicle had to be made in the US or with substantial US parts. There were a bunch of rules.

• 21:44Doug DeMuro?

  It's one of the great stories, how they cheated their way around this.

• 21:46Speaker 04

  Yes.

• 21:47Doug DeMuro?

  The Biden administration decided, no more blanket, uh, no more blanket EV tax credit. We're just gonna do it only for people who, who make less than a certain amount of money, because that's what the libs do. So, that's what they did, but then, they realized, the lease company can take the full tax credit and apply it to the lease.

• 22:06Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 22:06Doug DeMuro?

  And so, that's, anybody who bought EVs before, which was nobody, then nobody bought EVs. Then it only made sense to lease them, because then you could still get the tax credit, no matter how much money you made, because the leasing company was the buyer of the vehicle. And this is the problem with legislation. We should have none of it. No legislation, no computers.

• 22:22Speaker 04

  No computer legislation. I like that, that, that's a good, good platform. Uh, but the, the incentive is dead. There are a few states that are still doing their own state version. Colorado's one. California is not, and the governor of California has explicitly said that this is all Mary Barra, the CEO of GM's, GM CEO's fault.

• 22:40Doug DeMuro?

  He's, Newsom said it was Mary Barra's fault that the EV incentive went away?

• 22:43Speaker 04

  His ration, yes. His rationale is, Mary Barra specifically petitioned heavily to have, uh,

• 22:49Doug DeMuro?

  Oh yeah.

• 22:50Speaker 04

  against there being fuel economy restrictions, and he is tying that to that. Which is fair and also not fair. Uh, doesn't really matter. Uh, but, here's where it gets interesting. So, there's a few automakers that are trying different things to still sell EVs. By the way, EV sales in September and in Q3 generally, incredibly strong.

• 23:10Doug DeMuro?

  Well, yeah.

• 23:10Speaker 04

  A few companies have reported numbers, and their EV sales, Hyundai, Kia is one of them, Ford is one of them, uh, GM, I think, also reported.

• 23:17Doug DeMuro?

  The thing that's important.

• 23:17Speaker 04

  Their numbers are up notably.

• 23:18Doug DeMuro?

  The thing that's important to remember with those cars specifically, is that those cars are especially dependent on this deal. So the IONIQ five. Which is a $40,000 car, right?

• 23:27Speaker 04

  A little more than that.

• 23:28Doug DeMuro?

  The 75, the, yeah, cheap ones. Cheap ones are like high 30s, low 40s. $7,500 lease incentive is 20% of the value of that car. That's a big deal. Rivian R1S, it's not as important to people.

• 23:39Speaker 04

  So that's where it gets interesting. So let's use the Ioniq 5 as an example. Hyundai announced today, the day after the incentive end, that they will continue their own $7,500 incentive for a month. And then in 2026, prices fall by as much as $10,000. So they are lowering Ioniq 5 prices by about the amount of the incentive.

• 23:56Doug DeMuro?

  Interesting.

• 23:56Speaker 04

  Or if not more, which is interesting.

• 23:58Doug DeMuro?

  What about Mackie?

• 23:59Speaker 04

  Uh, I don't think they care that much about Mackie sales anymore. They're just kind of done with that.

• 24:03Doug DeMuro?

  It's old.

• 24:04Speaker 04

  Yeah, uh, but the other automakers are trying different things. GM has taken an approach in the last week, which has basically been, "Hey dealership, you can buy the car before the month ends, and then sell it to somebody else later." They've been quite explicit about it.

• 24:16Doug DeMuro?

  In other words, they can take the incentive. I mean,

• 24:18Speaker 04

  They, they, they can take the incentive, pass it along. But I do think we'll see, Tesla, by the way, has increased their lease prices because the incentive no longer applies. That makes sense. It'll be interesting to see what ultimately happens.

• 24:28Doug DeMuro?

  This is gonna have a real effect on, on the lesser priced EVs. EVs, EV sales, which are already milquetoast this year generally.

• 24:35Speaker 04

  EVs are anything but milquetoast. They're the highest they've ever been.

• 24:39Doug DeMuro?

  Yeah, but they're barely rising. I looked at the numbers the other day. The, in Q, in Q2, they were down.

• 24:45Speaker 04

  Well.

• 24:45Doug DeMuro?

  Like 2%.

• 24:46Speaker 04

  Q3, boy, are they up.

• 24:47Doug DeMuro?

  Well, I bet you Q4 won't be so strong.

• 24:49Speaker 04

  Q4 is likely to be a little weak. But automakers, I think, on the low price ones, know that prices how they're competing. Hyundai knows that they're selling Ioniq, leasing Ioniq 5s instead of a Model Y because the price is competitive. And so they will take losses to keep selling them.

• 25:04Doug DeMuro?

  But think about what that, what you're saying. I mean, that's not a long-term business strategy. They already have developed the car. It's already on sale. They have to kind of keep going with it one, in some way that they can. They probably have commitments to Korean unions or suppliers or whatever. They're gonna make this number, number of cars. They gotta get the cars out, even if it's profitless. But do you see a future for these cars? Who the hell knows? Without the, the incentive was an important, uh, component of these cars succeeding. And this is an example. We've been talking about this a lot on this pod. By not creating the incentive, the automakers are not incentivized to, um, to, you know, Innovate in this space and as a result, other brands, other companies, other countries that have these incentives, cars will innovate more.

• 25:41Speaker 04

  Yes, 1970s.

• 25:42Doug DeMuro?

  It's not not that. I mean, it's like that. Like, I know that there's the current government has a political stance against EVs and I'm not exactly an EV. I own one. But we want our country and our companies of our country to innovate and we have been allowing them to with this and it's this is a sad. I think it's sad.

• 25:59Speaker 04

  Jim Farley, being perhaps the most vocal in interviews, he had an interview with The Verge earlier this week where he basically said like, we, it's okay that the customer level, consumer level EV incentive is going away, but we need the, we're working really closely with the Trump administration to find ways to continue some of the other incentives. Because there are incentives to build batteries in the US.

• 26:18Doug DeMuro?

  Right.

• 26:19Speaker 04

  Which Hyundai and Ford have benefited from greatly. And like, they would need those incentives to continue to invest any money in EVs.

• 26:24Doug DeMuro?

  Right. I, you know, I get that there's a political bluster to this whole thing. Like, oh, we want our gas cars back. Screw EVs. That's what the liberals drive. But like, you will see where this is going. In 10 or 15 or 20 years, we all know that this is a reality, the situation. And by not having American companies continue to innovate, you're gonna end up with America behind. And in 20 years, you might see Chinese cars on these streets. Like, I mean, the Koreans, in 86, when Hyundai showed up, it was a joke, the original XL. No one ever thought it would be competitive.

• 26:55Speaker 04

  Yep.

• 26:55Doug DeMuro?

  And these people work hard and they develop and they, and eventually, these things started to come up and take bites out of our own US auto industry. And in some cases, they start building here, which is great. But it's just something to consider. Whenever you talk about, oh, screw EVs, there's, there's more to this than that.

• 27:11Speaker 04

  You can't be purely isolationist, for real.

• 27:13Doug DeMuro?

  Another reason that we shouldn't have legislation, or maybe I'm saying that we should now. Tough. You figure it out.

• 27:19Speaker 04

  Great politics.

• 27:20Doug DeMuro?

  Do we have any other?

• 27:21Speaker 04

  Yeah, of course. There's one more story, which is a quick little hit. Ford Mustang. Jim Farley said in that same interview, that there are more Mustang, Mustang this Mustang, not Mustang Mucky.

• 27:30Doug DeMuro?

  I totally disagree.

• 27:31Speaker 04

  Not Mustang Mucky.

• 27:32Doug DeMuro?

  He didn't say that.

• 27:33Speaker 04

  I've looked at the data.

• 27:34Doug DeMuro?

  Finish the quote.

• 27:35Speaker 04

  There are more Mustang sales outside of the US of the current generation Mustang, whatever that one's called. What's it called?

• 27:40Doug DeMuro?

  The new Mustang.

• 27:41Speaker 04

  No, there hasn't.

• 27:43Doug DeMuro?

  We call, we say new Mustang. Until it's not new anymore.

• 27:47Speaker 04

  There is a name. There are more sold outside of the US than in the US in the current generation.

• 27:52Doug DeMuro?

  You know, this is Cologne. Here we are bringing Cologne into the.

• 27:55Speaker 04

  Apparently Australia and like Sweden or Finland or something are the largest outside of the US markets.

• 28:00Doug DeMuro?

  Can I ask you a question? Do you think this is the only picture ever taken in Germany that has a new Mustang and a Supra in it? What the hell are the odds of that? Yeah, but that makes sense. The Germans don't buy American or Japanese.

• 28:11Speaker 05

  Is that the Nürburgring thing?

• 28:12Doug DeMuro?

  Yeah, I think you got a pretty good shot. Uh, okay. So Farley said that the Mustang is selling more outside the US than in. I think he includes the Mach-E. And you cannot throw a stone in Copenhagen and not hit a Mach-E. You cannot walk out of your house in Oslo and not bump into a Mach-E. Not screw around. They are everywhere in those places.

• 28:30Speaker 04

  It was not fully clarified, but additional, in that interview, but additional news stories have referred specifically to the S650 Mustang, which is what that one is.

• 28:37Doug DeMuro?

  The S650 and other new Mustang models. Additional news stories from who? Reputable or non-reputable?

• 28:43Speaker 04

  Both.

• 28:44Speaker 05

  So you got the Mach-E and then the gas.

• 28:48Doug DeMuro?

  They're selling more Mustangs out of the US. Well, yeah, you're selling Mach-Es in Oslo where the purchase price of a Mach-E is $11. People want the American Mustang, the nameplate. They didn't say which.

• 28:57Speaker 04

  The quote directly is, we're investing a lot of Mustang. I think the people don't get about Mustang is that it's a global car. It's the best selling sports coupe in the world. We outsell Mustang outside of the US than in the, inside the US.

• 29:09Doug DeMuro?

  Sports coupe, but they, they're like Mercedes Benz with the GLE coupe. Hey, this car pod, you know, I'm all about value, whether it's my Porsche Carrera GT or a quirky Nissan Murano Cross Cabriolet that makes you do a double take. But today, let's talk about a different kind of asset, Aker Gold. Inflation's hitting harder than a V10 at red line. Gas prices, parts, even your average car wash is way up. So if you're worried about where to put your money, Aker Gold lets you invest in real 24 karat gold bars, starting at just a few bucks a day. It's like buying a classic car that never rusts, never needs repairs and always shines no matter what. The price of gold is up over 40% from last year, 40%. And here's the best part, Aker is easy. Just pure shiny gold shipped straight to your door.

• 29:53Doug DeMuro?

  They're really on to something with this. Solid, reliable investment that you can actually hold in your hand and a fun thing to show your trustworthy friends. So head to getacregold.com. Protect your money, keep it golden. That's getacregold.com. All right, now back to this car pod. All right, bring on, we got no more news stories. Okay, we have a, we gotta talk cars and I want to talk cars. I got a lot of talk cars today. I got two big stories. We're gonna, yeah, bring them, bring the 993. We're gonna have some reels that result from those. All right. I have two things to say, Ken, and I want you to listen up and listen, listen very closely. I, I saw, heard about this on the podcast last week. Cause I listened, I listened. Oh, wow. Did you listen to the part

• 30:34Doug DeMuro?

  where I said you wouldn't listen? Yes, I did. But I, it's beautiful to see it in person. Okay, we got this 993 turbo. I'm gonna cover that in a second. First, I want to say something. The Countach is back from service. Hmm. There it is. It's sitting behind me and it's got an oil change and some fluid flushes and there was a nail in a tire. And so there's minor stuff, two grand is what it cost. That car, two things, that car is driving beautifully right now. Boba left did the service here in San Diego. They're up in Miramar or something. Mm hmm. Maybe Curti Mesa, no one knows. And it's Miramar. They got, we'll walk in there, they got 10 Muras. It's incredible. Boba left did the service. Two grand. The car has never run better. It runs beautifully. Is that the, what it having an oil change does? Right. Exactly. Here's the thing for all you

• 31:19Doug DeMuro?

  Countach, I'm gonna say two things for all you, this is the bomb I'm gonna drop today for all you Countach people. Number, all the haters. Oh, the Countach are so unreliable. The time between the last service I did and this service is the longest I have ever gone with any of my cars ever in my life between services. 655 days. How many miles? That's a long time. Uh, 2,000 miles. Legitimately a lot for a Countach. Two, two years. Two full years. A lot of them, you know, a lot of them are serviced, sit around for a decade and then are serviced again. Some people, it's actually, well, I've been driving mine and I drive it at least once a week. And that brings me to the big bombshell I'm gonna drop today. The announcement I'm prepared to make. My favorite car that I own is my Countach. There it is.

• 32:03Speaker 05

  It's not true.

• 32:04Doug DeMuro?

  It is.

• 32:04Speaker 05

  Your best car. You think the Carrera GT is the best, the Countach is your favorite.

• 32:08Doug DeMuro?

  My favorite car that I own is my Countach.

• 32:10Speaker 05

  How long can we hold you to that statement?

• 32:12Doug DeMuro?

  It has evolved over time and is now, I am now for sure on it.

• 32:15Speaker 05

  Wow.

• 32:16Doug DeMuro?

  I love the Carrera GT dearly. I'm not, this is not me announcing I will sell it, although I do, will someday, I promise. But the Countach is my favorite car that I own. I just love the car. I love how it looks. I love how it drives. I love using it. I love everything about it. When, I have it up in my lift and when it comes down, I'm like, oh man, this is gonna be a good day.

• 32:38Speaker 05

  Well, I can't believe we're finally aligned. That's always been my favorite car of yours and it is, it is so cool.

• 32:43Doug DeMuro?

  It is just the best car. And all this crap, I think one of the things that depresses Countach values, and, which is wonderful by the way, because I love the fact.

• 32:51Speaker 05

  Yeah, yeah, cheap car.

• 32:52Doug DeMuro?

  Well, it should be more. But I think one of the things that depresses the values is that there is this reputation for unreliability and the fact that the car drives poorly. My experience has been the exact opposite. You know, the first year I had it, I was like worried every time I took it anywhere. And I was always, what is that noise? What are they, you know? And now I'm into year two and I'm actually into year three already.

• 33:11Doug DeMuro?

  Never been any problems. And there could be, but like the fact that I've already made it two and a half years, like we're, we're doing pretty well. And it's just so fun to use. It's so, I drive every car in the world, every car, right? With the press cars and the cars in the office. And this is just the most fun car.

• 33:29Speaker 05

  I think it hinges on a couple of things. It's fun to use because yours has been so reliable. Thanks to George Evans, who did the major service on it. And you've had the reliability mods done to the engine, so it is, so it has been reliable. And in fairness, every time I've started it for the summer, it, it starts so easily every time. It is a champ. I would trust that car to drive it some distance, actually.

• 33:49Doug DeMuro?

  Yeah.

• 33:50Speaker 05

  But, you know, obviously had it been one that needed service, this experience would be dramatically different.

• 33:55Doug DeMuro?

  Except that because of who I am, I would have paid, you know?

• 33:58Speaker 05

  Sure.

• 33:58Doug DeMuro?

  I would have paid up. If George had told me that it needed Evans in, in Ohio, greatest Lamborghini mechanic in the world, unless I'm standing in front of Boba Laff. The two of them though, I'm so, I'm so thrilled that I have.

• 34:08Speaker 05

  Boba Laff's the best oil changer for Lamborghini.

• 34:10Doug DeMuro?

  He did a good job though, and they did. Quick and they were they were very committed wonderful. Obviously, I love Evans dearly. He did fifty thousand dollars in service in the car when I first bought it. If he had told me it was one fifty, I would have done it. And you know what? I bet you it would be driving just as well. Like, I just think that this car, this car is extra special in my mind because of its. When I first bought it, I was very uncertain about its upgrades. It has forged pistons. It has a bored motor.

• 34:33Doug DeMuro?

  But.

• 34:33Speaker 05

  Built.

• 34:34Doug DeMuro?

  Yeah, I got a built motor on my Countach. But because of those things, I truly believe the car drives better.

• 34:39Speaker 05

  I I wouldn't, I would not be surprised if that's the case. I so my question then is, is this, is it the Countach specifically, or I mean, this is your first older car? Like with the carburetor.

• 34:52Doug DeMuro?

  I will say, because of this car, I have started to consider older cars. I've never been an old car guy.

• 34:57Speaker 05

  Same.

• 34:58Doug DeMuro?

  And I've been surprised. I've loved this car so much. I'm not not looking at Daytonas. I'm not not looking at Othinos. I don't have a huge interest in those cars, but my interest is ten X where it used to be. It really is.

• 35:09Speaker 05

  That's so interesting. I suspected it would be if if this car had any, had any.

• 35:14Doug DeMuro?

  You know what's funny?

• 35:15Speaker 05

  Being reliable.

• 35:15Doug DeMuro?

  I gotta tell you, I bought this car. I was I was on the entire, I was in the summer. I was not around it. I didn't see it. It was in Canada. And I had it shipped here. I didn't see the car for the first month that it was here. There was some work done to it. And I showed up to, you were there, and I showed up to pick it up from Elite Finish, the shopper I sent it. Shout out, Kevin. I showed up and I drove it home and I thought to myself, this was a mistake. I shouldn't have done this. I'm gonna regret this and I'm gonna sell this car in a year. And because it's so different from a modern car and it's so different from anything I'd used to, but I've gotten used to it and I love it. I have fallen deeply in love and it is my favorite car.

• 35:53Speaker 05

  When was the last time you used second gear?

• 35:55Doug DeMuro?

  I don't use second.

• 35:56Speaker 05

  Just occasionally.

• 35:57Doug DeMuro?

  The the Singro in second is notorious. It's mine's fine now because it's brand new because Evans put a new one in. But he'd said to me, he said, Doug, he said, when you, second gear? Only use it when it's warmed up. That's what he said when I, when I took out the car. But the problem is there's no trans temp dial. So I had no idea when it's warmed up. So I just decided, you know what? It's never warmed up, never gonna use it.

• 36:19Speaker 05

  Oh, well, that's not right.

• 36:20Doug DeMuro?

  My goodness.

• 36:21Speaker 05

  You should use it. It's like if you.

• 36:22Doug DeMuro?

  I use it when the car gets really warm. Like if I've been driving for 20, 30 minutes, it's obviously warm. I use it then.

• 36:27Speaker 05

  It's not, it's not that long. Usually after about five minutes or so, it's.

• 36:30Doug DeMuro?

  I don't want to take a risk. I don't want to take a risk. He said the synchros are pretty weak. And so like he, he said, I mean, this not like every year you got to replace it, but like 10, 15 years, it's gonna need it again.

• 36:39Speaker 05

  You can tell because it will not want to go into second. But after a while, like if it, if it feels good going from third to fourth, like you can start to use second.

• 36:46Doug DeMuro?

  Oh, you think that's the.

• 36:48Speaker 05

  Yeah. Like, I mean, in my, my experience with older cars is like the Italian ones in particular, on all of them. Like that 308 that's sitting behind you, like it doesn't like second gear. So you go from first to third.

• 36:58Doug DeMuro?

  Yeah.

• 36:58Speaker 05

  My 355.

• 36:58Doug DeMuro?

  I do that with my, I do that with Corgi T.

• 37:00Speaker 05

  You do for just, just a little bit like a gift. I mean, that car, there's so much oil, like both in the sum for the engine and then also for the transmission. It does take longer to warm up. But usually like if you're going on a longer drive, like if you're driving it to Cars and Coffee, like it would be.

• 37:15Doug DeMuro?

  Yeah.

• 37:16Speaker 05

  Warm. Like you could use it then by the time you got there.

• 37:18Doug DeMuro?

  Yeah. That's, no, and I do, I do. By the time I get off the freeway, Rancho Santa Fe, and I'm on that career road, I do use second.

• 37:23Speaker 05

  That's, then you're doing it right. That's exactly right.

• 37:25Doug DeMuro?

  The, makes me want other Lambos, I will say, like I.

• 37:29Speaker 05

  Really? Like a, well, like a.

• 37:31Doug DeMuro?

  Mercy stick and Diablo.

• 37:34Speaker 05

  The three.

• 37:35Doug DeMuro?

  Uh, I don't want them. I don't want to be a Lambo guy. I never saw myself as a Lambo guy. Who wants to be a Lambo guy?

• 37:39Speaker 05

  Right.

• 37:39Doug DeMuro?

  But they're just, it's just so, it's such an amazing car.

• 37:43Speaker 05

  It is.

• 37:43Doug DeMuro?

  You're driving it around, you're having an unbelievable experience. You're giving this incredible experience to people around you who are so excited. This is like a life, like you talk to adults and they say, I still remember where I was as a kid when I saw a Countach on the street.

• 37:54Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 37:55Doug DeMuro?

  You know, and like this is, that's so cool. It's, it's just cool to be part of it. I love it. My favorite car that I own.

• 37:59Speaker 05

  Well, I'm excited that it has opened the, the back catalog of some of these great iconic vintage cars to you.

• 38:05Doug DeMuro?

  Maybe.

• 38:05Speaker 05

  And it is a very special.

• 38:06Doug DeMuro?

  On that subject, you want it, should we talk about the 993 turbo situation?

• 38:09Speaker 05

  Yes, sure.

• 38:10Doug DeMuro?

  Last week on the pod, I announced.

• 38:14Doug DeMuro?

  Very strenuously that I was ready to buy another car. It's been, it's been over two years since I Wow. Yeah, it's been over two years since I bought a car. I bought my Sequoia like eight, nine, 20 months ago, but I don't really count it daily. It's been over two years since I bought a fun car, which was the Countach at the end of 23. I bought it in the summer of 23. And I have for years, for years since then sworn to be off cars. I'm off cars. Off cars. Last week on the pod, I very strenuously said I was ready. I'm ready to get back on cars and get a 993 Turbo. And I found one and I found a nice one. And then I don't want, I'm not going to get into the particulars yet. This is still ongoing, but not very ongoing. But I found one and the, I've discovered, I do a lot of due diligence when I buy a car and I discovered You are thorough.

• 38:59Doug DeMuro?

  That the odometer had been rolled back. And odometer issues is a problem on 993s in general. They all fail. And the question is, can you catch it right away, get it fixed and just keep it climbing? Or do you roll it back?

• 39:11Doug DeMuro?

  This particular car had been rolled back. Yeah. And I'm not actually opposed to buying a rollback.

• 39:18Doug DeMuro?

  But it changes the value. But it changes the value. And I haven't caught up with the seller of the vehicle yet, but I have a suspicion we're not going to be in agreement. Meanwhile, this is a story I haven't told yet on the pod. Wow, this is story hour. However, six months ago, I came to an agreement with a seller, dealer, about, on an F40. A Ferrari F40. You know this whole You don't act like you don't know. We agreed on a price. Turned me for good radio. And, and I was ready to do it. And a couple of days later, the dealer backed out of the price they had agreed on. Yeah. And both of, and I'm not going to say anything more about either situation, but

• 40:00Doug DeMuro?

  I will say this. Both of these situations remind me that buying a vehicle is hard unless you use cars and bikes. Yes, well done. No, but it's annoying. It's true. It's, it is true. That 993 Turbo.

• 40:16Doug DeMuro?

  Is an interesting case because if it had been on our site, you would have posted all these pictures, all these service records, which is how I discovered it because there were service records that had mileage in excess of the current odometer.

• 40:24Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 40:25Doug DeMuro?

  And, um, I know, I should have bought that car. It was tuned at a 996 wheels.

• 40:29Speaker 04

  I know, but we could have had so much fun with Cole one's putting it back to stock.

• 40:32Doug DeMuro?

  That's so true. With some money, this car could have gone back to stock. Well.

• 40:36Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 40:36Doug DeMuro?

  More or less.

• 40:37Speaker 04

  More or less.

• 40:37Doug DeMuro?

  Um, I, I just, uh, I, it's just, it's just annoying to buy a car at the level I want to buy a car at. Like I, I will buy, I will pay up, I will buy car, but I, I make, I like really do a lot of diligence. If I can and you know, Carfax and look carefully at the service records. Like I opened up an Excel document and wrote down all the records and what they did and you know, the years and when and where. And I'm looking at plate numbers to determine how, when the car was sold to this owner and all that. And, and, um.

• 41:04Speaker 04

  And really, honestly, on our site, really great sellers will go to the trouble of doing this for you. Like they'll have logs.

• 41:10Doug DeMuro?

  And if they don't, the, the comments will suss it out. And that's what would have happened on our site if the car had gone up and, um, same with that F40, uh, that, you know, it would have been bid to the value, which was the value I agreed to with the dealer. Uh, and, um, you know, that would have been that.

• 41:25Speaker 04

  You, you aren't trying, you as a buyer for cars of this caliber are not trying to get a deal.

• 41:30Doug DeMuro?

  Yeah, I'm not trying to get a deal. I want to pay retail.

• 41:32Speaker 04

  You want to play market correct price.

• 41:34Doug DeMuro?

  I don't even care. I'll pay over.

• 41:35Speaker 04

  Right.

• 41:35Doug DeMuro?

  I, I, cause I, cause when I get in my head, I want a car. I get, I like want a car.

• 41:39Speaker 04

  You also want to know about the car. You want to know what you're getting into.

• 41:42Doug DeMuro?

  That's the thing that annoyed me about the rollback. It, it has become clear to me that the seller is the one who rolled the odometer back to the previous Carfax.

• 41:48Speaker 04

  Well, that's good.

• 41:49Doug DeMuro?

  He rolled it back to the previous Carfax number, but didn't take into account service records that show.

• 41:54Speaker 04

  That hadn't been reported CarMax.

• 41:55Doug DeMuro?

  And it's like, dude, if you had just, you don't understand, like, and, and some buyers aren't like this and would have much rather had the lower mile car with the rollback and not known. But it's like, dude, if you had just not rolled it back, everything would have been better.

• 42:07Speaker 04

  Yep.

• 42:07Doug DeMuro?

  You know, like, yeah, the car would have had higher mileage, but then I wouldn't have a TMU issue, true mileage unknown. And I'm still interested. I'm still a buyer.

• 42:14Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 42:14Doug DeMuro?

  But now you've got a car with who knows how many miles, a TMU car. It's, it's less valuable than it would have been if you hadn't tried to fake it. And, um, it's just so frustrating. You understand why some of these sellers don't sell on cars and I mean this sincerely and this is not intended to be an ad for Cars and Bids. You can say about bringing trailers. Well, I'll cop to it. You understand why some of these sellers don't want to sell on the auction platforms because the commenters are sophisticated enough that they will point this crap out. And I don't like, I don't like buying cars that are really available. I don't like people like looking back at my buy. I like to buy like a privately offered car.

• 42:48Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 42:49Doug DeMuro?

  But the auction sites have some real benefit.

• 42:52Speaker 04

  They really do. And also you have a seller that is serious.

• 42:55Doug DeMuro?

  Yeah.

• 42:55Speaker 04

  That F40 seller.

• 42:57Doug DeMuro?

  Yeah.

• 42:57Speaker 04

  Clearly not serious. Was wasting everybody's time.

• 42:59Doug DeMuro?

  Wasting everyone's time, including his own. I lost three hours to that guy and I lost three hours to the 993 guy.

• 43:05Speaker 04

  Your time valuable.

• 43:06Speaker 05

  Which is, yeah, that's more upsetting than anything else.

• 43:08Doug DeMuro?

  I'm not losing three more hours. Okay?

• 43:12Speaker 04

  Wow. Well, no car for you.

• 43:13Doug DeMuro?

  Well, I want to not, listen, I'm going to make the plea again. I want an R993 Turbo. I want an Arena 993 Turbo. Like this. US car.

• 43:21Speaker 04

  Is that Arena?

• 43:21Doug DeMuro?

  If you have one.

• 43:22Speaker 05

  No rollbacks.

• 43:23Doug DeMuro?

  I don't even care if it has a rollback.

• 43:24Speaker 04

  Or is this closed rollback?

• 43:26Doug DeMuro?

  If it has a rollback, disclose so we can come to the right number. I want a US car 993 Turbo. I'm ready to buy. Mid miles.

• 43:36Speaker 04

  Mid mile.

• 43:37Speaker 05

  It just, yeah, we just keep focusing.

• 43:39Speaker 04

  Here, here. Can I transition us?

• 43:41Doug DeMuro?

  Yeah.

• 43:41Speaker 04

  If you have a 993 Turbo.

• 43:43Doug DeMuro?

  Dude, if you do.

• 43:44Speaker 04

  Come to Ken and I at, next weekend at Road Atlanta where we'll be at IMSA's Petit Le Mans race with a paddock Cars and Coffee. Thank you.

• 43:52Doug DeMuro?

  Folks, this is the most exciting event of the year. I am so sad I'm not going to be there. If by some, if by some ungodly reason IMSA allows us to continue this partnership next year, I will come to this event.

• 44:03Speaker 05

  I hope so. Then we can go walking in Atlanta after.

• 44:05Doug DeMuro?

  Atlanta's my favorite place.

• 44:07Speaker 04

  Not close to Atlanta.

• 44:07Doug DeMuro?

  No, but it's close enough. Atlanta's my favorite place. Filippo and Ken are going to be at Road Atlanta, which is, which is in Brazelton, home of Panos.

• 44:15Speaker 04

  Really?

• 44:15Doug DeMuro?

  Yeah.

• 44:16Speaker 04

  I didn't know that.

• 44:17Doug DeMuro?

  Yeah.

• 44:17Speaker 04

  Somebody's coming with a Panos. That makes sense now.

• 44:20Doug DeMuro?

  There you go.

• 44:21Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 44:21Speaker 05

  Didn't have to drive.

• 44:22Speaker 04

  We're going to have a car corral, like a Cars and Coffee, the entirety of the 10 hour race in the paddock. So you'll be set up if you are bringing your car, because you've posted in community, we've invited you. You will be set up there next. To all the race teams. If you're just coming to the race, come say hi to us, come hang out in our space. We will have coffee, we'll have Kenan.

• 44:41Speaker 05

  We'll have Filippo.

• 44:43Doug DeMuro?

  Kenan and coffee.

• 44:44Speaker 04

  Kenan and coffee.

• 44:44Doug DeMuro?

  This is a great event. This is gonna be so much fun. You can go and see Kenan in person. You can ask him about Emily, his girlfriend, in person.

• 44:53Speaker 05

  And her CRT, which will not be it.

• 44:55Doug DeMuro?

  Her CRT, she's got a CRT screen.

• 44:58Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 44:59Speaker 04

  I will also say, in general, IMSA race is very fun to attend.

• 45:02Doug DeMuro?

  Can I ask you a question? Two questions. This is a 12 hour race, right?

• 45:06Speaker 05

  10 hour.

• 45:07Doug DeMuro?

  Are you gonna?

• 45:08Speaker 05

  30pm.

• 45:08Speaker 04

  Am I gonna be there the entirety of the race? Yeah.

• 45:10Doug DeMuro?

  Or 10:10? You are?

• 45:11Speaker 04

  Of course.

• 45:12Doug DeMuro?

  No way, really?

• 45:13Speaker 04

  Yes.

• 45:14Doug DeMuro?

  Oh, wow, that is crazy.

• 45:16Speaker 04

  What do you mean, really?

• 45:17Doug DeMuro?

  Second, and I'm, and I'm.

• 45:18Speaker 04

  I'll be there for longer than 10 hours.

• 45:20Doug DeMuro?

  This is me, just hoping. Will you wear your giraffe shirt?

• 45:24Speaker 04

  I'll think about it.

• 45:25Doug DeMuro?

  Will you please? You can, you can wear other Cars and Bids merch, like you can put a sticker on your shirt or something.

• 45:31Speaker 04

  I'll think about it.

• 45:31Doug DeMuro?

  Okay. He'll wear Cars and Bids merch. Anyway, the point is, you should attend this event, Road Atlanta, IMSA, Petit Le Ma, the, the, the, the, the ultimate event on the IMSA calendar, as I recall.

• 45:42Speaker 05

  And the Cars and Bids one for now, that's our second IMSA event.

• 45:45Doug DeMuro?

  Yeah.

• 45:45Speaker 05

  I'm really excited about this.

• 45:47Doug DeMuro?

  Uh, okay.

• 45:48Speaker 04

  Well, some great cars.

• 45:48Doug DeMuro?

  Are you ready for your next cool car? Sell your enthusiast car on Cars and Bids. Trading in your car to dealers means you aren't getting market value for your car, leaving you with less cash for your next fun car. Just look at our recent sales of these cool cars compared to current trade-in value. This is a trade-in offer, and this was the Cars and Bids result. This is a trade-in offer, and this was the Cars and Bids result. This is the trade-in offer, and this is the Cars and Bids result. Get started now on carsandbids.com. Sell on Cars and Bids and join the best community to sell your enthusiast car. Okay, final Talk Cars segment is from Filippo. Filippo's going to talk to us about a car he's not going to purchase. Go ahead.

• 46:30Speaker 04

  I've been interested in buying a car again. I'm, I'm, I'm back on, on buying cars-ish. And I've been thinking a lot about boxers, right? Cause the boxer's a good car. We, Ken and I filmed a video a while ago. On a boxer spider, a 91 boxer spider versus a 91 base. We kind of decided the 981 base wasn't quite as powerful as we wanted, but a great platform, a great chassis and a great car.

• 46:51Doug DeMuro?

  Love the platform.

• 46:52Speaker 04

  Love the platform. So I've started considering 981 Boxster SS GTSS. But I also realized that 718 Boxsters are the same price or cheaper than a 981.

• 47:02Doug DeMuro?

  And it's a good motor. People say it's not a flat six, but it still is.

• 47:05Speaker 04

  That's the question, right? It's like, is it as bad? They're much cheaper for a convertible car. Like, are they undervalued or is the fact that it's not a flat six, that it's a turbo flat four legitimately a detractor?

• 47:18Doug DeMuro?

  I think that you won't notice.

• 47:20Speaker 04

  Well, I do notice things about cars. Turns out.

• 47:23Doug DeMuro?

  But I also think that no matter what you say, you will end up with a cheap hatchback. This is your MO. When you bought, think about this. Think about this. When you bought your E-Class wagon, we were hearing all these stories. You ended up with a cheap hatchback.

• 47:35Speaker 04

  When I bought my E-Class wagon, I bought an E-Class wagon.

• 47:37Doug DeMuro?

  When you bought, yeah, but you were hearing all these stories about what you wanted.

• 47:40Speaker 04

  An E-Class wagon, that's what I wanted, that's what I bought.

• 47:42Doug DeMuro?

  500A Barth, you were looking at this, looking at that.

• 47:44Speaker 04

  I bought a convertible.

• 47:44Doug DeMuro?

  You ended up with a cheap hatchback.

• 47:47Doug DeMuro?

  Now.

• 47:47Speaker 04

  There's no hatch.

• 47:48Doug DeMuro?

  Yeah, but it's a hatch. Now, then, last time, C7, 997, and you ended up with?

• 47:53Speaker 04

  A cheap hatchback.

• 47:54Doug DeMuro?

  A cheap hatchback.

• 47:55Speaker 04

  Should I buy a Cayman?

• 47:55Doug DeMuro?

  Bought a GTR.

• 47:56Speaker 04

  A 718 Cayman is a cheap hatchback for the 981 Cayman.

• 48:00Doug DeMuro?

  I will tell you this. If you're even barking up this tree, you're going to end up with a Tip 987. And then you're going to be like, this was a disappointment.

• 48:07Speaker 04

  Well, a DOT 2 is rare.

• 48:09Doug DeMuro?

  That too would be good, actually.

• 48:10Speaker 04

  No, here's a good, go back to that.

• 48:12Doug DeMuro?

  I legitimately think.

• 48:13Speaker 04

  Caymans are a good example. A 981 Cayman, no, go back, two pages?

• 48:16Doug DeMuro?

  718.

• 48:18Speaker 04

  Yes, go back. Okay, this 718 Cayman is a base Cayman for 50 grand. A 981 base Cayman with that miles is also 50 grand. You will never spend 50 grand on a car of your entire life.

• 48:27Doug DeMuro?

  It's laughable.

• 48:28Speaker 04

  That's hilarious. It's laughable. I have considering it, but should I consider a 718 or should I not?

• 48:33Doug DeMuro?

  So I'm going to speak to the general public as opposed to Felipe, who I do not think will ever buy a car of this nature. I think the 718 Boxster has gotten an unfairly bad rap because of the turbo four cylinder. I think that it's like the Ferrari, the 458, the F8 comes with its turbo engine and people are like, oh, it's not as good. Well, folks, you're lucky it's not electric. Like, you know? Like actually you're in a pretty good shape here and and and I think that this is a similar situation. This car still drives really well. It is an excellent car to drive. It's just not, yeah, it's not a flat six, but on from a driving experience, I don't really notice it all that much. I think the turbo engine is great. I think they did a great job engineering it.

• 49:14Doug DeMuro?

  Of course, I would rather have a GTS4 or a GT4, but everyone would rather have the nicer version, you know? I'd rather have a Pagani Zonda than a Honda Accord.

• 49:22Speaker 05

  Right, that is the nicer version.

• 49:25Speaker 04

  Famously stair stepped up.

• 49:27Speaker 05

  The F Roadster.

• 49:28Doug DeMuro?

  I just think these cars don't, I, I think for a general person, there's like this talk when you go to a car event. Oh, the 718 is a four cylinder. It's not as good. I think that's said by people who haven't driven them. It's just, it is good.

• 49:41Speaker 04

  This is legitimately interesting to hear because there's more, it's more power than a 981. The chassis by all accounts is phenomenal. They're cheaper than a 981. They've depreciated a lot. The question is, will they depreciate? You kind of know what to expect from Porsche depreciation. The 718 seem to be depreciating much more substantially than that. Will that continue or will it taper?

• 49:59Speaker 05

  Well, some would argue then if the 981 is depreciating less and it's going to hold its value more than you should buy the 981.

• 50:04Speaker 04

  Unless you think that the 718 will, is at the bottom of its appreciation.

• 50:09Doug DeMuro?

  There's another component here, which is what do they do next? Because I think 718 depreciation curve stops if they do go full electric.

• 50:16Speaker 04

  But they aren't.

• 50:16Doug DeMuro?

  Well, maybe. See, they said they were going to go full electric on some versions, but then. So if, if, if the Boxer becomes full electric next time, except for the GT4 and the Boxer Spyder and the top versions, that probably will have a beneficial effect on the 718.

• 50:30Speaker 04

  And even more so on the 90.

• 50:31Doug DeMuro?

  You get my point because this will be then the last gas powered one, right? Even if they do a GT4 RS next or a, or a Spyder RS next with a gas engine, like the base cars will, this will have been the end of the line.

• 50:43Speaker 05

  It's just hard to buy a sports car with four cylinders that didn't have it originally. Like the Lotus Land was a four cylinder, had a four cylinder, the, uh, like their number, like the Miata. Four cylinder, always had a four cylinder.

• 50:54Speaker 04

  With power.

• 50:55Doug DeMuro?

  To be fair, these are not. These have power. It's 350 horses, right?

• 50:59Speaker 04

  Real power.

• 51:00Speaker 05

  Yeah, but then it sounds like a four cylinder. The, the sound is a part of it.

• 51:04Speaker 04

  I'm going to just say something here.

• 51:05Doug DeMuro?

  The little flat six?

• 51:07Speaker 05

  Not exactly.

• 51:08Doug DeMuro?

  Not exactly a Carrera GT, you know what I mean?

• 51:10Speaker 05

  Well, I didn't say it was a Carrera GT, but it sounds better than a pedestrian four cylinder.

• 51:15Doug DeMuro?

  2.7 liter flat thing?

• 51:16Speaker 05

  When we drove that base, like, I thought the sound wasn't one of my complaints. I thought it sounded, it needed an exhaust, but like, it sounded like a Porsche.

• 51:23Doug DeMuro?

  But I don't necessarily think-

• 51:24Speaker 05

  Sounds like a Subaru.

• 51:25Doug DeMuro?

  Yeah, but like-

• 51:26Speaker 05

  Yeah, but it does.

• 51:27Doug DeMuro?

  Neither car I'm buying for the sound. If I want a sound, I get a GT350 and walk away.

• 51:31Speaker 05

  Well, but that's part of the sports car experience is the sound.

• 51:34Doug DeMuro?

  That's what you want, I don't. Anybody looking at one of these cars, buy a GT350. But if you don't want a GT350, which you should, the 718s are becoming really good deals.

• 51:43Speaker 05

  So Filippo, what color will your Golf RB?

• 51:46Speaker 04

  Okay, there's one interesting, there's one interesting thing about these, which is no one, we sell so, we auction so few regular 718s.

• 51:54Doug DeMuro?

  Yeah.

• 51:54Speaker 04

  We box spiders as frequently as regular ones. And that's true across like the enthusiast sites. Enthusiasts definitely buy it.

• 52:01Doug DeMuro?

  I hate to say this, I think that's it. I hate to say this because I don't want to make anybody feel bad out there. In this case, and sometimes I'm willing to feel bad. But in this case, because I don't believe it to be true and it shouldn't be true, but this turned out not to be a car that was bought by enthusiasts. It turned out to be a car that was bought by someone who wanted a Porsche, who wanted to spec out a car, who was maybe getting older, wouldn't have the chance again. It was not a car that ended up, it mostly in enthusiasts' hands. I think that is unfair. It's like the California, I think it is unfair. I think it is a very good enthusiast car. However, yes, it has ended up, what you see on the enthusiasts on these sites is generally enthusiasts selling to enthusiasts and this car has not made its way.

• 52:39Speaker 05

  I'll still consider it. I'll think about it.

• 52:41Doug DeMuro?

  It is a great car and it is, it is becoming a bargain. And that leads us to our market report, which is brought to you by the 993 Turbo.

• 52:49Speaker 05

  Especially if you have one for Doug.

• 52:51Doug DeMuro?

  I want one. Find me, send me a 99, I want a 993 Turbo. Rena Red, the market report.

• 52:57Speaker 05

  US.

• 52:58Doug DeMuro?

  We want to talk about, yeah, US, I don't want any Euro crap. I don't, if the VIN has a Z in it, I don't want anything to do with that.

• 53:05Speaker 00

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• 53:36Speaker 05

  That's such a deep cut.

• 53:40Doug DeMuro?

  Okay, the market report, we're talking about these getting cheap, let's talk California.

• 53:43Speaker 05

  Uh, yes, so we recently sold a Ferrari California with no reserve on cars and bids. It was this one and it sold for $65,000.

• 53:51Doug DeMuro?

  With the star wheels in Wisconsin.

• 53:53Speaker 05

  With the base, the early star wheels, yes. Now, this car did have some issues admittedly.

• 53:58Doug DeMuro?

  What were they? Go down.

• 53:58Speaker 05

  It was, what was it?

• 54:00Speaker 04

  There's a check engine light for the catalytic converter. There is a-

• 54:04Doug DeMuro?

  Nine-year-old tires, CEL, the front suspension is leaking, there's wear on the infotainment screen, that's not the bit, scratches on wheels, credits, no problem.

• 54:11Speaker 05

  Oh, I mean-

• 54:12Doug DeMuro?

  The driver's seat doesn't function-

• 54:13Speaker 04

  It needs some work.

• 54:14Doug DeMuro?

  Needs some-

• 54:14Speaker 04

  How many miles?

• 54:15Speaker 05

  And it did have miles, 45,000 for a Ferrari that's- But, my point is that-

• 54:20Doug DeMuro?

  65.

• 54:21Speaker 05

  The floor now has gotten to 65 grand for a dual-clutch V8-powered, relatively modern Ferrari.

• 54:28Doug DeMuro?

  Say what you will, these cars drive great.

• 54:30Speaker 05

  They do.

• 54:30Doug DeMuro?

  It's the 718 thing again, these cars drive amazingly.

• 54:34Speaker 05

  Right, and I understand there's some questions about the way like the rear end in particular looks and stuff like that, but they do drive well.

• 54:40Doug DeMuro?

  Ugly cars get a lot cheaper as they depreciate, or ugly cars get a lot prettier as they depreciate, right?

• 54:45Speaker 05

  They do, yeah.

• 54:46Doug DeMuro?

  Like, this car, this car was ugly at 175 in a 8. At 65, I'm looking past a lot of its flaws.

• 54:54Speaker 05

  Yep, yes, it is, I agree with that, but I just, I could not believe like this-

• 54:59Doug DeMuro?

  65!

• 55:00Speaker 05

  The 360 was a bargain, like, we always like, that's why I think it was like a bargain.

• 55:03Doug DeMuro?

  This car is the Mondial of the modern world. The difference, the difference being it drives really well, and actually Mondial's drive pretty well too.

• 55:10Speaker 05

  Yes.

• 55:11Speaker 04

  But this is generally a good car.

• 55:13Doug DeMuro?

  Legitimately a good car.

• 55:14Speaker 04

  Hey, Ken, stand on that photo for a second.

• 55:15Speaker 05

  Well, too late, but-

• 55:17Speaker 04

  Right, I just want to move it off of this, I would, I will give you $5 right now if you can name that red car.

• 55:21Speaker 05

  I'll give you $5 right now if you can tell me how much horsepower it-

• 55:25Doug DeMuro?

  480.

• 55:26Speaker 04

  469.

• 55:27Doug DeMuro?

  480.

• 55:27Speaker 05

  How many gears does it have?

• 55:28Speaker 04

  It has 7.

• 55:29Doug DeMuro?

  And you know what? That's a Buick Encore.

• 55:31Speaker 04

  GX.

• 55:32Doug DeMuro?

  Yeah, yeah. All right, I wasn't that far off.

• 55:34Speaker 05

  You're close. But anyway, I think that it is such a bargain and

• 55:38Doug DeMuro?

  65, honestly, those flaws too. You you buy the car, you put it on Turo, you fix none of them.

• 55:44Speaker 04

  You make $300,000.

• 55:45Speaker 05

  And we rented to go do car spotting. But next time you sit in the back of it, I'm not.

• 55:50Speaker 04

  No, no human, no adult can sit in the back.

• 55:53Doug DeMuro?

  That interior does look nice. You know, I gotta tell you, for 45,000 miles, that interior's held up well. Because one of my complaints about Ferrari is that they're not meant to be used all that much. It's like art. And so the cars just wear so much faster than like Porsches and other cars.

• 56:05Speaker 05

  Yeah, it looks pretty good.

• 56:06Doug DeMuro?

  That looks pretty nice.

• 56:07Speaker 05

  Well, I mean, it looks good. That said, all the buttons, I'm sure, are sticky and stuff doesn't function as it's designed.

• 56:12Doug DeMuro?

  Chrysler infotainment though, dude.

• 56:13Speaker 05

  Occasionally, the seat just starts, the passenger seat just starts moving all the time. Ferraris, that's just how they are.

• 56:17Speaker 04

  So specific.

• 56:18Doug DeMuro?

  It's a ghost.

• 56:19Speaker 05

  That's the Ferrari way.

• 56:21Doug DeMuro?

  I'm telling you, this is for 65, that's a pretty good car.

• 56:23Speaker 05

  Agreed. Imagine you're sitting behind that steering for 65.

• 56:26Doug DeMuro?

  And it sounds like a Ferrari and it goes like a Ferrari.

• 56:29Speaker 05

  It ain't slow.

• 56:30Doug DeMuro?

  It's got a V8. It's not like it's some plug-in hybrid four-cylinder C63 crap. It's still an A V8.

• 56:35Speaker 05

  It's not like a four-cylinder 718.

• 56:37Doug DeMuro?

  Speaking of cars that cost over 65, pull up the M5.

• 56:40Speaker 04

  All right, pull up the 65. Okay, the past week, we auctioned a very low-mile E60 M5. It had 3,300 miles, but it was the SMG.

• 56:48Speaker 05

  Yep, and an early one, launched.

• 56:50Speaker 04

  And it fails me reserve at 74. I will say, this is the, by far, the highest public bid to amount or result that I've found for automatic E60s.

• 56:58Doug DeMuro?

  Folks, this is rare. We talk about Filippo's bringing up a car that didn't sell. We like to pretend during the market report that we sell all the cars. Well, reserve not met. We don't know what that means. But Filippo brought this up.

• 57:10Speaker 04

  I sure did.

• 57:11Doug DeMuro?

  This is very impressive.

• 57:12Speaker 04

  It's a strong, legitimately, it is the highest public result for an E60.

• 57:16Doug DeMuro?

  Yeah.

• 57:17Speaker 04

  Didn't sell. We sometimes, especially when a car just has no comps, we just want to see what the market says. Who knows?

• 57:24Doug DeMuro?

  How do we know?

• 57:24Speaker 04

  Who knows? Nobody knows.

• 57:25Doug DeMuro?

  Sometimes these cars sell for green kyan, sell for 125.

• 57:28Speaker 04

  That feels like a lot of money for an SMG 60 M5.

• 57:32Speaker 05

  Well, and again, an 06, it's a pre-LCI car too, so they're just less desirable. But it is white, which is a rare car.

• 57:38Doug DeMuro?

  Very rare. I don't know if I would have cut it loose if I were the seller. I don't, I know what they were looking for. I'm not gonna announce.

• 57:43Speaker 04

  The prior record, by the way, was 60K for like a 10,000 mile car a year ago.

• 57:48Doug DeMuro?

  Yeah, I mean, it's hard to know. How do you value a 10?

• 57:51Speaker 04

  Do you think it goes up?

• 57:52Doug DeMuro?

  Maybe.

• 57:53Speaker 04

  Sticks will. Low mile, a low, a thirty three mile stick. This would be twice the amount.

• 58:00Doug DeMuro?

  Given that this was bid to seventy four and the California is sold for sixty five, which would you rather have? Zero mile E sixty M five or driven California?

• 58:08Speaker 05

  An E sixty M five that needs rod bearings tomorrow anyway and a manual swap. Or a California that needs everything. Um, I don't know.

• 58:17Speaker 04

  I'd get the Cali in two seconds.

• 58:19Speaker 05

  I think I'd.

• 58:19Speaker 04

  What am I gonna do with a car with three thousand miles? You can't use it, you hope it appreciates, but will it? Like, is there desire? It's special, obviously, because it's the only V ten M five.

• 58:29Doug DeMuro?

  Yeah, but it's a tip.

• 58:30Speaker 04

  An F ten M five with thirty three hundred miles or an F ninety M five with thirty three hundred miles is this price regardless.

• 58:34Speaker 05

  But it's just not, the SMG was, SMG's bad.

• 58:37Doug DeMuro?

  It's weird to have the very best example of the least, the lesser desirable version.

• 58:43Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 58:43Doug DeMuro?

  You know, it's like the one mile EcoBoost or something like, what do you do?

• 58:46Speaker 04

  What do you do with that?

• 58:47Doug DeMuro?

  I don't know. But I'll tell you, it was cool to see this car come up. It was cool to look at the interior photos. You do not see them in this shape anymore.

• 58:54Speaker 05

  There will be a marker for this and I'll tell you why. Uh, this three oh eight GTSI, the least, this was the nicest version of the least desirable version of the three oh eight. Two valve fuel injected car really early and it brought real money because it had nineteen hundred miles on it.

• 59:08Speaker 04

  Yeah, but Ferrari that has a specific look.

• 59:10Doug DeMuro?

  Ferrari's a thing, Ferrari's a thing and trans is a big factor.

• 59:14Speaker 05

  I think at some point, like I can see this becoming like something someone wants for a collection of the lowest mileage.

• 59:21Speaker 04

  But what did they want?

• 59:22Doug DeMuro?

  Wouldn't you look for a stick?

• 59:23Speaker 04

  You look for a stick.

• 59:24Speaker 05

  You'd look for a stick.

• 59:24Speaker 04

  Although they're, are there any?

• 59:26Speaker 05

  They are all driven, that's the point of the stick, that's what most people want. And that's also the point of like doing a conversion. I mean, honestly, kind of, yeah, you're too afraid it's gonna break.

• 59:34Doug DeMuro?

  This was a very interesting auction.

• 59:36Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 59:36Doug DeMuro?

  I was surprised it got as high as it did, surprised seller didn't cut it loose, but at the same time, not that surprised. Seller made it more than we do. This car is very special.

• 59:44Speaker 04

  They may hope for more than we know, yes.

• 59:46Doug DeMuro?

  I, E sixty M fives are still cool, man. I look at this picture of this one and I'm like, this car still looks damn cool.

• 59:51Speaker 05

  It's aging.

• 59:52Doug DeMuro?

  Those wheels, this car looks damn cool.

• 59:54Speaker 05

  It would be the best M five, no question, if it had any shot at reliability.

• 1:00:00Doug DeMuro?

  Yeah.

• 1:00:00Speaker 05

  It does not.

• 1:00:01Speaker 04

  Also, if the engine were a little less peaky.

• 1:00:03Speaker 05

  Yeah, a little more torque, a little less, uh.

• 1:00:05Doug DeMuro?

  I, sacrilege, but I really.

• 1:00:08Speaker 04

  Eighty three pound feet.

• 1:00:09Doug DeMuro?

  I really wish that the M three. With the V8 and the M5 with the V10, that the powertrains were just designed a little different. But that's also how M-engines are, always have been. Like they've, with the exception of like- Then why do a V10? Give us a turbo-

• 1:00:23Speaker 04

  That's a question you all have.

• 1:00:25Doug DeMuro?

  You know why? Because Formula One and they could. Give us a turbo four-cylinder like AMG. Luckily, they haven't done that. That's what we want. Uh, okay, I want to talk about, um, we want to talk about two more cars.

• 1:00:37Speaker 04

  Yeah, we do.

• 1:00:37Doug DeMuro?

  I want to talk about the Grand Cherokee. Please pull up the Grand Cherokee. Oh, absolutely. The best car we have on the site right now, and that's saying a lot because there's some good stuff on the site. We got right now, this is, folks, this is just a Grand Cherokee. Look at it. It's a, it's a 13 Grand Cherokee Laredo X. Okay, it's boring-

• 1:00:51Speaker 04

  I didn't know that was a trim.

• 1:00:51Doug DeMuro?

  It was. Boring Grand Cherokee. But then-

• 1:00:55Speaker 04

  By the way, that's a good John, Grand Cherokee.

• 1:00:57Doug DeMuro?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 1:00:57Speaker 04

  The best John.

• 1:00:58Doug DeMuro?

  Uh, but then- You open the hood. You open the hood, and under the hood, there is a 6.4-liter Hemi swap with a blower. Not just a Hemi swap, but a blower. What's the, they dynoed it. It's got some crazy wheel number. 600 and 526 wheel. Folks, this is a 600 horsepower car. Now, you're thinking to yourself, well, Jeep made the Trackhawk and the... No, no. This is cool because it doesn't look. Yep. They did the wheels because I presume they did brakes. So those wheels are from an SRT Grand Cherokee.

• 1:01:30Doug DeMuro?

  But otherwise, this is just, it just looks like a regular old Grand Cherokee.

• 1:01:33Speaker 04

  So cool.

• 1:01:33Doug DeMuro?

  This is a dude in New Jersey, and he kept it total, he resisted all the temptation you have when you do a motor swap to also black out the tails and lower it and put on a heinous body kit. This is the coolest car on the site right now. I am obsessed with this thing.

• 1:01:48Speaker 04

  Can I give you a Jeep fun fact?

• 1:01:49Doug DeMuro?

  Yeah.

• 1:01:50Speaker 04

  Do you know who the fastest 0-60 Jeep of all time is?

• 1:01:52Doug DeMuro?

  This.

• 1:01:53Speaker 04

  That came from the factory? Maybe this, maybe not.

• 1:01:55Doug DeMuro?

  Trackhawk.

• 1:01:56Speaker 04

  No. The wagon in your ass.

• 1:01:59Doug DeMuro?

  Of course.

• 1:01:59Speaker 04

  The wagon in your ass is faster than a Trackhawk, bro.

• 1:02:01Doug DeMuro?

  Look at that, look at that. Go back to the tail, the headlight. Look at that cloudy headlight. This is amazing. This just looks like a Jeep that you would see driving around as an Uber.

• 1:02:11Speaker 04

  Yup.

• 1:02:12Doug DeMuro?

  The 204,000 mile odometer reading.

• 1:02:15Speaker 04

  The engine blew up and he put in a different one, right?

• 1:02:17Doug DeMuro?

  Sure, but that's cool.

• 1:02:18Speaker 04

  That's so cool, I agree.

• 1:02:19Doug DeMuro?

  And it's so cool that he kept it stuck. Like this is, I'm dead serious. Like you drive around New Jersey, you just see this thing and you're like, oh, someone put SRT wheels on a regular. Ha, ha, ha, ha. Then you line up.

• 1:02:31Speaker 05

  I can't remember, what was that other V8 swap truck that we had? That guy looked stock from the outside, but had a V8 in.

• 1:02:36Doug DeMuro?

  There've been a few swaps.

• 1:02:36Speaker 05

  But that's the thing, if you do this and it looks stock.

• 1:02:39Speaker 04

  That's so good.

• 1:02:40Doug DeMuro?

  I love a swap like this.

• 1:02:41Speaker 05

  It's so cool, it looks so legitimate.

• 1:02:43Doug DeMuro?

  It takes so much more restraint not to do the dumb other stuff, and yet it ends up so much better.

• 1:02:47Speaker 04

  It's so cool.

• 1:02:48Speaker 05

  Totally. I totally agree.

• 1:02:49Doug DeMuro?

  526 wheel. That's, that's real. This is a 640 horsepower car.

• 1:02:55Speaker 05

  That would blow a thief away in the next tooth.

• 1:02:56Doug DeMuro?

  Oh, yeah.

• 1:02:57Speaker 05

  This thing is so sick. This one, if you were legit, this is what you'd buy.

• 1:03:01Speaker 04

  If I were legit and lived in New Jersey, I would.

• 1:03:03Doug DeMuro?

  What do you mean, you gotta live in New Jersey?

• 1:03:05Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 1:03:07Doug DeMuro?

  It does surprise me.

• 1:03:08Speaker 04

  You could live in Pennsylvania, but like if.

• 1:03:09Doug DeMuro?

  It does surprise me, this was done in, Pennsylvania has emissions. It does surprise me this was done in New Jersey because it's like, they're like tight with that stuff. Like, it was, the other one you're thinking about was that Xterra. That Xterra that had the Titan V8 swap.

• 1:03:20Speaker 04

  Oh, that was cool.

• 1:03:21Doug DeMuro?

  Amazing, amazing vehicle. That one, the green one.

• 1:03:25Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 1:03:26Doug DeMuro?

  Yeah, look at that. Again, lifted it, like made it cool off roadie, but didn't mess with it otherwise. Didn't do dumb stuff.

• 1:03:32Speaker 05

  Looked pretty stock with them under the hood.

• 1:03:34Doug DeMuro?

  Under the hood, it had a Titan V8, which just looks like a regular motor. Like, that's so killer. Anyway, love the Grand Cherokee, want the Grand Cherokee.

• 1:03:41Speaker 04

  Yup.

• 1:03:41Doug DeMuro?

  Someone out there, buy it and enjoy it.

• 1:03:43Speaker 04

  Yup.

• 1:03:44Doug DeMuro?

  Is it no reserve?

• 1:03:45Speaker 04

  It is.

• 1:03:45Speaker 05

  Go bid.

• 1:03:46Speaker 04

  You could bid.

• 1:03:47Doug DeMuro?

  Uh, okay. We want to talk M roadster, then we got to move on to questions, questions, questions.

• 1:03:50Speaker 05

  Yes, so I've, I think about this a lot when you, you know, you're a Porsche guy.

• 1:03:54Doug DeMuro?

  Porsche, Porsches.

• 1:03:56Speaker 05

  Porsche people love.

• 1:03:57Doug DeMuro?

  I've had more Nissans than Porsches. Do you know that?

• 1:04:00Speaker 05

  Is that so?

• 1:04:01Doug DeMuro?

  Yeah, I had a Skyline, a Cube, and a, uh, S Cargo.

• 1:04:04Speaker 05

  The Cube was a technicality. Didn't your brother just give it to you for like a long weekend?

• 1:04:08Doug DeMuro?

  Yeah, but I owned it for two years. That car, here's a story about my Cube. That car, I personalized my Georgia license plate to say 001 AAA. And so it looked like the first license plate. And a man came up to me and said, "You got the first one." And I said, "Yep, got lucky." And I just walked away.

• 1:04:25Speaker 05

  Wow, that was, that was you throwing it down from one nerd to another.

• 1:04:29Doug DeMuro?

  All right, let's talk.

• 1:04:30Speaker 04

  By the way, if you're a newer fan of Doug, go search Nissan Cube Doug.

• 1:04:34Doug DeMuro?

  Is there a video?

• 1:04:35Speaker 04

  There's a gray review.

• 1:04:36Doug DeMuro?

  We did a video right before I sold it, right?

• 1:04:37Speaker 04

  You did a video long.

• 1:04:39Doug DeMuro?

  Does it have the 001A? No, I don't think it does. Okay, M Roadster.

• 1:04:42Speaker 05

  Anyway, so Porsche people love color.

• 1:04:44Doug DeMuro?

  Color.

• 1:04:44Speaker 05

  Unique colors bring a dramatic difference. We saw this with that Cayenne that happened recently. BMW people and other marks, less so. So this BMW M Roadster. This BMW, if you let me speak uninterrupted for once. This BMW M Roadster, this is evergreen over evergreen. Which if this were on a 964, would it be?

• 1:05:06Doug DeMuro?

  $200,000. That's a 964 that Singer wouldn't take, hack apart.

• 1:05:12Speaker 05

  Meanwhile, this car sold for $17,266, which is nothing great. Not had miles, 114,000 miles, but it's a really seemingly special color. But I've seen a number of them that are this color and they don't really sell for a premium.

• 1:05:26Doug DeMuro?

  And this is, I want to be clear, this is a very ugly color and the interior is even.

• 1:05:29Speaker 05

  Very, all the interior, I mean, it's awful.

• 1:05:31Doug DeMuro?

  Interior is horrible. However, if I were buying one of these, this is the only color I would consider.

• 1:05:37Speaker 05

  It's so cool.

• 1:05:38Speaker 04

  Can I just throw that there? I said, "Here's why, I know which one you're pulling up. You're pulling up that nephrite green."

• 1:05:43Speaker 05

  Yeah, if I can find it.

• 1:05:43Doug DeMuro?

  Oh, it's hard, way back there.

• 1:05:45Speaker 04

  Yeah, I don't. We sold it for a lot of money, though, you'll find it that way.

• 1:05:48Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 1:05:48Doug DeMuro?

  There it is.

• 1:05:50Speaker 04

  So here's.

• 1:05:50Speaker 05

  Very similar color, to be clear.

• 1:05:52Speaker 04

  Here's why I think your take is wrong. We sold last week a different Z3M with a touch lower miles, like 100-ish thousand miles, that was a regular color a week prior. And that sold for $12.5. So this car sold for 50% more.

• 1:06:04Doug DeMuro?

  Yeah. And that boxer with this one. It's still not bringing money.

• 1:06:08Speaker 04

  But 50% more is the same margin as any other. Like, that boxer sold for 30, 40% more than another 50,000 mile boxer. A 987, like, a non-special, a 997 in a special color, 50% more is probably about the right margin.

• 1:06:22Doug DeMuro?

  Yeah, but Kenan's point, like, it's still 17 grand.

• 1:06:25Speaker 05

  17 grand, it's not like.

• 1:06:26Speaker 04

  What do you think it's worth?

• 1:06:28Doug DeMuro?

  I don't know. I think it's cool.

• 1:06:29Speaker 04

  Of course it's cool. That's why it's 50% more than a regular color.

• 1:06:32Doug DeMuro?

  I guess. I mean, you're right in if you're looking at it on a percentage basis.

• 1:06:36Speaker 04

  Well, that's how you should be looking at it.

• 1:06:37Doug DeMuro?

  Well, maybe.

• 1:06:39Speaker 04

  You're also paying $4,000.

• 1:06:40Doug DeMuro?

  You're buying a Z3M. I guess.

• 1:06:42Speaker 04

  You're not buying that car.

• 1:06:43Doug DeMuro?

  It is interesting to me though that people don't sit here and say that car is like a, I mean, you're never gonna find another one.

• 1:06:49Speaker 04

  No.

• 1:06:50Doug DeMuro?

  There was that really awful green too that they did that was even worse.

• 1:06:52Speaker 04

  There was a worse green. I agree.

• 1:06:54Doug DeMuro?

  It was like urban green or something?

• 1:06:56Speaker 04

  I know.

• 1:06:56Doug DeMuro?

  That was on the Z4. I actually liked that color.

• 1:06:58Speaker 04

  I do. I know exactly the color you're talking about. It's worse.

• 1:07:00Doug DeMuro?

  It's like a robin's egg, but it's green.

• 1:07:02Speaker 04

  It's a thod. I agree.

• 1:07:04Speaker 05

  I just think it is interesting. Like to me, it just doesn't feel, I mean, the car doesn't feel valued in general, which I think is kind of a shame because they are actually very fun.

• 1:07:10Doug DeMuro?

  Yes, but why would you? People are always asking me.

• 1:07:13Speaker 04

  How highly do you want to value a Z3M?

• 1:07:14Doug DeMuro?

  People are always at higher.

• 1:07:15Speaker 04

  Higher.

• 1:07:16Doug DeMuro?

  People are always asking me for tips on what cars are gonna appreciate. I don't know if it's gonna, but it should. This car is radically undervalued.

• 1:07:22Speaker 05

  I agree. I just think the Z4M is as well.

• 1:07:25Speaker 04

  The Z4M, I agree.

• 1:07:26Doug DeMuro?

  The coupe. Is the coupe closed yet? The Estoril coupe?

• 1:07:29Speaker 05

  Yes, this one. 28.

• 1:07:30Doug DeMuro?

  Okay, that got some money.

• 1:07:31Speaker 05

  Got some money, but.

• 1:07:32Doug DeMuro?

  28 is a bargain for this car.

• 1:07:34Speaker 05

  When you consider an S54 with the same mileage costs.

• 1:07:37Doug DeMuro?

  You don't think this is a bargain?

• 1:07:39Speaker 04

  I don't.

• 1:07:39Doug DeMuro?

  This is a fun car.

• 1:07:40Speaker 04

  It's a fun car, but 30 grand is a real amount of money.

• 1:07:43Doug DeMuro?

  This is a very special car. It really is. The clown shoe, it is a very unusual look.

• 1:07:49Speaker 04

  It's incredibly cool, but is the experience worth more than that? Not really. It's a Z3.

• 1:07:52Doug DeMuro?

  Is a 250 GTO expensive for 40 million?

• 1:07:55Speaker 04

  That's not a car I consider. Yes, if you're the pinnacle buying art, which is fundamentally what you're buying, then fine.

• 1:08:00Doug DeMuro?

  That's right. This is art.

• 1:08:03Speaker 05

  Look at that rear three quarter view.

• 1:08:04Doug DeMuro?

  I'll tell you this. I don't entirely disagree with what they're saying, but I will, I will give you this counterpoint. The S54 cars sell for three, if this wasn't a Estoril S54 car, we'd be talking about a $100,000 sale.

• 1:08:14Speaker 04

  Massively overpriced.

• 1:08:16Doug DeMuro?

  But, but whether or not it's over or underpriced.

• 1:08:18Speaker 04

  Had 130,000 miles. That's not.

• 1:08:20Doug DeMuro?

  Whether or not it's over or underpriced, the market radically values the S54 and radically does not value the S52. And it seems wrong. It seems like they should be tighter. There is a 70 horsepower difference, but other than that, you're still getting, it's a significant amount.

• 1:08:33Speaker 04

  25% difference.

• 1:08:35Doug DeMuro?

  But I think the coolest part of the car is you have this bizarre, low production, low model year, weird thing they'll never do again. They probably shouldn't have done in the first place. A hatchback coupe makes no sense.

• 1:08:47Speaker 04

  I love it, which is why it's worth twice as much as a Z3M Roadster.

• 1:08:52Doug DeMuro?

  Yeah, I think that doesn't feel unreasonable.

• 1:08:55Speaker 04

  I think both the Roadsters and the Coops are undervalued. Okay, I'm gonna be careful because we have somebody in the office here who owns a Z3 Roadster.

• 1:09:01Doug DeMuro?

  Low production.

• 1:09:01Speaker 04

  So I'll be careful.

• 1:09:03Doug DeMuro?

  Why is it that special?

• 1:09:05Speaker 04

  It's fun. It's a great car. It's already more expensive than an MB Miata and an NC Miata.

• 1:09:08Doug DeMuro?

  Oh my god!

• 1:09:09Speaker 04

  Oh my god.

• 1:09:10Doug DeMuro?

  It's more expensive than a 986 Boxer.

• 1:09:12Speaker 05

  This makes so much more power about those because the engine's way more expensive.

• 1:09:16Speaker 04

  It's more expensive than a 986 S.

• 1:09:17Doug DeMuro?

  It's got more power than those!

• 1:09:19Speaker 05

  It's substantially the same.

• 1:09:20Speaker 04

  It's the same.

• 1:09:21Speaker 05

  But it's substantially richer.

• 1:09:21Speaker 04

  It's 240 horsepower. Yeah. It's not that much more. It's in line with a 986 S.

• 1:09:25Doug DeMuro?

  It's cooler than a Boxer.

• 1:09:27Speaker 05

  That is way cooler than a Boxer.

• 1:09:28Speaker 04

  The coupe obviously is, but we're talking about the Roadster. It's like they're priced about appropriately.

• 1:09:33Doug DeMuro?

  We're talking about both.

• 1:09:33Speaker 04

  In my mind, they're priced about appropriately.

• 1:09:34Doug DeMuro?

  Well, wait, if you're talking about the Roadster, it's not more expensive than a 986 Boxer. A 986 Boxer S is more expensive than a...

• 1:09:40Speaker 04

  With the same miles. A 100,000 mile 986 Boxer is a $10,000 car.

• 1:09:43Doug DeMuro?

  It just astonishes me. It truly astonishes me that... They're rare. Unlike Boxers, which are a dime a dozen, these are rare cars. And the Coops are legit rare. If I saw an Astor M Coupe, I would freak out. I would follow it. I would take a picture. I would send it to everybody. I cannot think of another $28,000 car for which I would...

• 1:10:01Speaker 05

  Actually, I did recently. I slowed down. There's one on the transport and I slowed down to take pictures of it because you never see them. It was S52.

• 1:10:08Doug DeMuro?

  I've... Fine. And by the way, the S52 is the more reliable powertrain. One would argue that it's actually better to take an S52, do a couple of mods to it, get yourself up to 282 90 horse, and call it a day.

• 1:10:20Speaker 05

  I actually don't disagree with you on that. I like the S52. I had one, a car with an S52. So did you?

• 1:10:25Doug DeMuro?

  Why did you buy this?

• 1:10:26Speaker 05

  Me?

• 1:10:26Speaker 04

  I had an S52 and an M3.

• 1:10:27Speaker 05

  I've... I mean, I've been thinking about it, but I've... This is another car you guys talked me out of because I brought up the idea of buying this and everybody said you can't have another BMW.

• 1:10:35Doug DeMuro?

  Well, I think you should avoid another BMW, but I'm ready for you to get a car.

• 1:10:39Speaker 04

  The Z4, by the way, I agree. Undervalued.

• 1:10:41Speaker 05

  Yeah, the Z4 is the great unders, but...

• 1:10:43Doug DeMuro?

  This is... This body style is more special.

• 1:10:46Speaker 05

  Yeah, but it also... It does come with its own problems somehow, though.

• 1:10:49Doug DeMuro?

  It's ugly. You're saying it's...

• 1:10:50Speaker 04

  I think the Z3 Roadster, not a pretty car.

• 1:10:53Doug DeMuro?

  Oh my god!

• 1:10:54Speaker 04

  All right, let's move on.

• 1:10:55Speaker 05

  Well, Flippa just doesn't have any taste.

• 1:10:56Doug DeMuro?

  This car, go to the side shot. Go back to the coupe. The coupe is special. Go back to... Click on that. Click on that side profile. That car is so cool.

• 1:11:03Speaker 04

  For a while, we had a Z3 3.0 that I obviously reviewed, and I wanted that car because I think it is incredibly special.

• 1:11:10Doug DeMuro?

  And it's a special cheap hatchback. God.

• 1:11:14Speaker 04

  I've walked into that one.

• 1:11:16Doug DeMuro?

  This car is rare, it's special, the color is special. I cannot believe you can buy that car for $28,000. I truly can't. You get that and a third gen Viper. By the way, Kenan and I, I want to say something. I want to say one more thing before we go on to questions. I have a new theory. It's like my Cayman GT4 nucleus theory. It's about Vipers.

• 1:11:31Speaker 04

  Oh.

• 1:11:33Doug DeMuro?

  Kenan and I determined today, there are only three generations of Viper. There's the first gen, the third gen, and the fifth gen.

• 1:11:41Speaker 04

  Yes, agreed.

• 1:11:42Doug DeMuro?

  But that's what you call them. So there are three gen, because no one would ever call the fifth gen Viper the third gen Viper. It's just mentally, it just seems wrong. The fifth gen Viper is the fifth gen Viper. But from now on, I will only refer to three generations of Viper. The first gen, the third gen, and the fifth gen. Those are the three generations of Viper.

• 1:11:59Speaker 04

  Kenan wants a first gen, but would accept a 1.2 gen.

• 1:12:04Doug DeMuro?

  Yeah, you can say dot two if you want.

• 1:12:06Speaker 05

  I, uh, yes, they, they, you know, it's funny because I've been really looking at Viper prices recently and they seem to be rising relatively steadily. Like, good, good first gens are kinda in the 50s now.

• 1:12:17Speaker 04

  Wow, that's a shame.

• 1:12:18Speaker 05

  Which is so, because like not that long ago, they were in the 30s.

• 1:12:20Doug DeMuro?

  I begged them to get one at 35, didn't do it, could have made 15 grand. Okay, we gotta move on to questions. We have to move on to questions. Questions are brought to you by the third gen Viper.

• 1:12:28Speaker 04

  Which one?

• 1:12:29Doug DeMuro?

  The, the, all of it. The third gen is the third gen.

• 1:12:33Speaker 04

  Right.

• 1:12:33Doug DeMuro?

  It's only the second.

• 1:12:34Speaker 04

  Well, and the fourth gen.

• 1:12:35Doug DeMuro?

  Questions are brought to you by the third gen Viper. It looks like an S2000, but it goes like a Viper.

• 1:12:41Speaker 04

  Okay. Looks like an S2000.

• 1:12:42Doug DeMuro?

  Sorta.

• 1:12:42Speaker 04

  Doesn't matter.

• 1:12:43Doug DeMuro?

  My big thing about the third gen Viper that really hit me when I was reviewing it is that it's, the, the looks are too tame for the driving experience. The driving experience is like punch you in the face. The looks are ki-, it's kinda pretty.

• 1:12:53Speaker 04

  I don't think it's tame looking.

• 1:12:54Doug DeMuro?

  Oh, compared to the other one, compared to the first gen.

• 1:12:56Speaker 04

  Their, their rear tires are literally twice the width.

• 1:12:58Doug DeMuro?

  The rear, the rear, the rear is cool, it's wide and all that, but it's the first gen.

• 1:13:02Speaker 04

  Yeah, you picked, yeah, okay, you're right. All right.

• 1:13:03Speaker 05

  Look at it.

• 1:13:04Doug DeMuro?

  Yep, no, no, you're, you're, you're right. I take everything back, I take back.

• 1:13:06Speaker 05

  You know, it's the painted windshield, that's part of it.

• 1:13:08Doug DeMuro?

  They're not that far off.

• 1:13:09Speaker 04

  No. Very long hood proportionally.

• 1:13:13Doug DeMuro?

  But, but, but the difference is the Viper, when you, the difference is the S2000 pre-tamed car, like it's, it's very controllable. The Viper, when you get in, you feel like you're gonna die, but it doesn't have the look of a car that looks like it's going to kill you.

• 1:13:24Speaker 04

  Right.

• 1:13:25Doug DeMuro?

  That's the problem with the third gen Viper.

• 1:13:26Speaker 04

  Right.

• 1:13:26Doug DeMuro?

  Which is actually...

• 1:13:27Speaker 04

  I think actually kind of adds to the experience. But moving on.

• 1:13:29Doug DeMuro?

  Okay, questions. Questions are brought to you by Filippo in his giraffe shirt at Road Atlanta, the IMSA event at Petit Le Maire. Filippo's gonna be there in his giraffe shirt.

• 1:13:37Speaker 04

  Maybe in his giraffe shirt. October 11th, right? Uh, it's on that.

• 1:13:40Doug DeMuro?

  Uh, first question, by the way, great questions this week. Last week, I put out a call for questions. I said, "We don't have enough good questions. Go to Cars and Bids, click on the community tab, there'll be a questions post." There, there's so many great questions.

• 1:13:52Speaker 04

  There's 400, 500 something questions.

• 1:13:54Doug DeMuro?

  I went through all of them and I found the best questions. Okay, so here they are. Uh, from Mora58, "Hi Doug, uh, did your wife ever have concerns about you buying the Carrera GT as it has a reputation of being a widow maker, or does she have any concerns, uh, with the car you bought or you're planning to buy? Despite being a relatively tame individual, I like cars that are trying to kill me. Uh, my Ford GT, you know, it no longer does it have this reputation, but when the Ford GT came out, it was known as a really, really uncontrollable car. And there were some really high-profile accidents, uh, with them. And, um, the Carrera GT, of course, uh, also, uh, some well-known ones.

• 1:14:32Speaker 04

  Yeah, couple.

• 1:14:33Doug DeMuro?

  Um, and, um, anyway, uh, but my wife didn't know any of that, so.

• 1:14:38Speaker 04

  I was gonna say, the, the idea that your wife, who is lovely, a lovely human, would know that it had a reputation of anything is...

• 1:14:45Doug DeMuro?

  No, I, I, I told her very clearly, and, and there was, there was a particularly sad crash in Southern California with the Carrera GT where a guy died who had a little kid. And I bought my car just as, after I had a little kid. And I think about that a lot when I'm driving the car. Um, and, um, and I am very careful when I drive for that reason. Um, and I think that tire technology and suspension technology has kind of changed the driving experience of that car. I actually find the car to be tremendously controllable. One of the most poised and controllable cars I have ever driven. I have never had the experience that some people say they have had of, uh, dangerous operation conditions. I do think... I think that has contributed to the increase in interest and value of the car, but I have never had that experience myself.

• 1:15:28Doug DeMuro?

  I have always found the car to be tremendously easy to drive and to understand and predictable. And I do push it hard. We went to the racetrack and all that. But I always try to be more careful than I probably could be, given the car's limits are pretty significant. And I do think about that sometimes.

• 1:15:47Speaker 04

  You're both an experienced driver and.

• 1:15:49Doug DeMuro?

  Yeah, I've also driven everything and I've driven a lot of stuff on the racetrack. But I think people who think that often can get themselves into trouble. And so I try not to, I try not to think that. And I try to just kind of keep the car within its limits.

• 1:15:59Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 1:16:00Doug DeMuro?

  But the limits are significant.

• 1:16:02Speaker 04

  Yep.

• 1:16:02Doug DeMuro?

  Okay, here's a good question for you guys about me. I am Batman writes, hey, on the very first podcast ever, Filippo named the MK7 GTI the deepest Filippo car.

• 1:16:13Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 1:16:13Doug DeMuro?

  What car would be the deepest? Kenan's is obviously the 395. What car would be the deepest Doug car?

• 1:16:21Speaker 05

  That's a car go.

• 1:16:22Speaker 04

  No, an E33 AMG wagon is.

• 1:16:25Doug DeMuro?

  What? I'm not practical.

• 1:16:28Speaker 04

  How many E-Class wagons have you owned?

• 1:16:30Doug DeMuro?

  Three.

• 1:16:31Speaker 04

  Right. All of them. More than any other human in North America has owned.

• 1:16:35Speaker 05

  That car's both practical and.

• 1:16:36Speaker 04

  And like you love the G-Wagon, you are, it would not be a car you own now, but you have owned them and it's like the right combination of.

• 1:16:44Doug DeMuro?

  We.

• 1:16:45Speaker 04

  Practical.

• 1:16:45Speaker 05

  G-Cab is kind of the, is kind of there actually. It's very unusual and appreciated for being unusual. Kind of practical, but also not, you know, because like you can't really get to the rear seats.

• 1:16:57Doug DeMuro?

  It's not fast though. I like performance and I'm relatively athletic as a person.

• 1:17:01Speaker 05

  You're not fast.

• 1:17:02Doug DeMuro?

  If you don't think so, let's race.

• 1:17:03Speaker 05

  I'll race.

• 1:17:04Speaker 04

  Let's go. We'll film right there.

• 1:17:06Doug DeMuro?

  You think you'll beat me in a race?

• 1:17:07Speaker 04

  I didn't, I said I would film right there.

• 1:17:08Doug DeMuro?

  Oh, okay.

• 1:17:09Speaker 05

  I don't think you're fast. You get to the tennis net pretty quickly, but outside of that.

• 1:17:12Doug DeMuro?

  Uh, okay, AMG wagon or G, I think G-Cab is better.

• 1:17:18Doug DeMuro?

  Uh, but um, I think that the answer is a C3 Stingray.

• 1:17:23Speaker 04

  Oh, on what?

• 1:17:25Speaker 05

  Perimeters, famously fast vehicle.

• 1:17:28Doug DeMuro?

  Cool as hell, big old motor.

• 1:17:30Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 1:17:31Doug DeMuro?

  And you know what? It'll get the job done if you know what I'm saying.

• 1:17:35Doug DeMuro?

  You know what I'm saying?

• 1:17:36Speaker 04

  Alrighty.

• 1:17:37Doug DeMuro?

  Yeah. C3 Stingray. We ever sold one of those?

• 1:17:41Speaker 05

  Yeah, a couple. Cause it made it in 81 was the final model year and I've sold some since.

• 1:17:46Doug DeMuro?

  Oh, yeah, that's me. Wait, no, go to that. No, that's not me as much. Yeah, no, maybe. More, I, I, I view myself more like that one.

• 1:17:52Speaker 04

  Yes, that one was so cool.

• 1:17:53Doug DeMuro?

  Yeah, yeah, that one. Click on that one. Yeah.

• 1:17:56Speaker 04

  I can't believe that's a $7,000 car.

• 1:17:58Doug DeMuro?

  I know. Dude, you want to talk about undervalued stuff? The C3 is so undervalued. Well, that one's a little rough.

• 1:18:02Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 1:18:02Doug DeMuro?

  The C3 is so undervalued though, and you want to know one of the reasons I think the C3 is undervalued? You ask a European to like, name an American car, they, the first thing they think of is a C3. Like the look of it, like the, the radical, huge motor with no power, the sound, the pollution. Like this car is so American, it, it should be more highly valued, but it is absolutely not.

• 1:18:24Speaker 04

  Wild names like pause attraction, which is what everything was named at the time, but like, it's weird now.

• 1:18:29Doug DeMuro?

  Yeah, like maybe the collector edition with its like fading thing. This is me, dude. Look at the interior. Ever seen an interior on a collector edition?

• 1:18:37Speaker 05

  Well, that looks about.

• 1:18:38Doug DeMuro?

  It's got silver, it's got like gold seats, gold, silver.

• 1:18:44Speaker 05

  Wow, interesting.

• 1:18:45Doug DeMuro?

  That's me. Okay.

• 1:18:47Speaker 04

  I really want to drive a four plus three.

• 1:18:49Doug DeMuro?

  From AFS CTSV, Doug Mash.

• 1:18:52Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 1:18:53Doug DeMuro?

  Doug, I understand the hate for the four cylinder C63, given the radical departure from the established formula. But the vast majority of complaints I see are because of the departure of this. This is a little nuanced question. It's interesting. Do you think that the V8 C-Class AMG, if it had never existed, would the perception of the four cylinder C63 be different? Yeah, but I think that has to be part of it. I think you can't separate it. We know what a C63 is.

• 1:19:16Speaker 04

  I have a different, I remember when you had that car, that press car and you were doing your review and you came out of it like, I was really hoping that I could say like something nice, like different than everybody else, but you didn't enjoy the car plainly.

• 1:19:27Doug DeMuro?

  But I, but only because it drove like a Subaru. And I think that's part of his point. Like what if we always knew the C63 drove like a Subaru?

• 1:19:34Speaker 04

  But the, the, the prior C-Class AMGs, even though they weren't the big, burly V8s, were still well-engined.

• 1:19:41Doug DeMuro?

  Yeah.

• 1:19:41Speaker 04

  Not afraid.

• 1:19:42Doug DeMuro?

  But that's, that's the point, though. He's, he's saying, can you separate that? I mean, I, I think part of the hate has to be because we know, like, it's too hard to imagine the C63 as anything else. It's a nuanced question. It's not a bad question. I don't think the car is terrible on its face, but I think when you create, when you create as an automaker, this, this lore of a car, it, it just is part of what the car is and becomes, and it, you can't, like, separate it from that. Like, does the, is the car great if you couldn't think about the other ones? Yeah, I mean, it drives okay. Like, I like an STI, you know?

• 1:20:16Speaker 04

  But if you're comparing the, the, like, a, a entrant in that segment to a Subaru engine, that's not a positive.

• 1:20:24Doug DeMuro?

  Maybe, but what, but, you know?

• 1:20:26Speaker 05

  I just think it's, it is what it is. Like, history is what it is.

• 1:20:28Doug DeMuro?

  History, the history is part of it.

• 1:20:30Speaker 05

  Yeah, I can't, you can't separate it.

• 1:20:32Doug DeMuro?

  It's a good question. It's a good question, but, but I really think that that ends up, it just has to be part of the car. And so I, it's too hard to separate it.

• 1:20:42Speaker 05

  Well, you know, ultimately, Mercedes-Benz agrees.

• 1:20:45Doug DeMuro?

  Yeah.

• 1:20:45Speaker 05

  Sure does.

• 1:20:46Doug DeMuro?

  Uh, another very nuanced, interesting question from Daniel Fritsch. Doug, I remember you saying Toyota launched the FJ at the worst possible, FJ Cruiser at the worst possible time, the recession came on, we weren't that interested in off-roaders at the time. With the success of Toyota SUVs and their off-roading pedigree, a relaunch of the FJ as a Bronco slash Jeep competitor, could it fit in the marketplace?

• 1:21:05Doug DeMuro?

  I think Toyota has decided, for whatever reason, that that niche will be filled by the 4Runner. And if you look at it from a pricing perspective and from a total sales perspective, the 4Runner is a close competitor with the Bronco and the Wrangler. The difference, of course, is it doesn't look like them, right? It doesn't have, like, an exposed fenders, removable doors, removable roof, but for whatever reason, that's, that's the direction Toyota has gone instead. I think the market's cool with that.

• 1:21:27Speaker 04

  They have teased an FJ, by the way.

• 1:21:29Doug DeMuro?

  If you do, yeah, but isn't it like a electric or a, for small, right? If you do another FJ, I think you do risk stealing some of the market that is the 4Runner, because I really think that that's what they've done. And I think Toyota has probably smartly understood that the 4Runner actually is, is a better vehicle for most people. It drives nicer than a Wrangler or a Bronco. Most people don't ever take off the roof or the doors. And if you remove those items, the 4Runner is a pretty cool car.

• 1:21:55Speaker 04

  The Honda, uh, passport guy's really got to you. That's what consumers really want.

• 1:22:00Doug DeMuro?

  Consumers want a body-on-frame capable vehicle, okay? The passport's a crossover.

• 1:22:05Speaker 04

  I do think that there is room for a smaller, like burlier looking Toyota, and I think Toyota will make it.

• 1:22:10Doug DeMuro?

  Maybe. I would love to see the FJ come back, but I think it would really come at the expense of a 4Runner. I think you would see a lot of people who would have bought a 4Runner just simply migrate over to that car. And I don't think that there's a lot of people who are thinking about a Toyota but choose a Jeep because the Wrangler can what? Take the roof off? Maybe there are some, but I bet it's not a huge, I bet it's not a huge amount of people.

• 1:22:30Speaker 04

  By the way, we've given Toyota a pass for the Land Cruiser 4Runner thing, huh?

• 1:22:34Doug DeMuro?

  God, one of the great bad product planning decisions in history.

• 1:22:37Speaker 04

  We're talking about, of course, the fact that the Land Cruiser 4Runner.

• 1:22:39Doug DeMuro?

  Then they stole the 300 Series Land Cruiser from me will go down. They're worse than the guy who rolled back the 993 odometer.

• 1:22:47Speaker 04

  Marchling.

• 1:22:48Doug DeMuro?

  Here's another good question from 2train. Doug, do you, it actually doesn't say Doug, you guys can answer too. Do you lose all respect for an alleged car enthusiast when he purchases a vehicle in automatic when the same car is produced from the factory with a manual? Like buying a GT4 PDK versus stick? Personally, no. I think there's a lot of good reasons to buy a Tep.

• 1:23:05Speaker 05

  Yeah, I think so. I think it also does kind of depend on, depends on the car specifically, but like, caught a automatic E60 versus a manual, that's like, eh, it's maybe. But also there are, there are reasons, there are value reasons, there are, you know, it depends on how the car is being used.

• 1:23:21Doug DeMuro?

  Right.

• 1:23:22Speaker 05

  Um, you know, if you're gonna, like, if you, GT4 is a good example, if you wanted to just do track driving with it.

• 1:23:27Doug DeMuro?

  Yeah.

• 1:23:27Speaker 05

  You could probably do one PDK. If you're gonna drive it around town and go on like long drives, like redo a country, maybe one.

• 1:23:32Doug DeMuro?

  What if you're gonna commute?

• 1:23:33Speaker 05

  Or if you're gonna commute.

• 1:23:34Doug DeMuro?

  This is why I've always said an Auto Supra would be cool. Like, I think it'd be an amazing commuter.

• 1:23:40Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 1:23:40Doug DeMuro?

  And that's true of an Auto NSX. Like, would you rather commute in a Model 3 like everybody else or sit in an Auto Supra? I'd rather sit in an Auto Supra. A manual would be cooler, but not for bumper to bumper. So I, I think that as long as there's a reason for it, it's fine.

• 1:23:52Speaker 04

  There's a lot of other things to judge people about.

• 1:23:55Doug DeMuro?

  Yeah.

• 1:23:55Speaker 04

  Don't eat that one.

• 1:23:56Doug DeMuro?

  Yeah, I'd rather judge people about rolling back and, folks, please.

• 1:24:02Doug DeMuro?

  Please. He's holding up the 993. I am a Porsche enthusiast. Porsche guy, I would say. Okay, here's a good one from Clayson8. We'll do two more. Clayson8, continuing last week's question of what car screams, I know nothing about cars. What cars say the most if you know, you know? Thinking of the Volvo S60R, Vigan Saabs, Jaguar Rs for the mid 2000s. You know, it's an interesting question. I'm bringing up the S60R when I worked at Porsche as a Porsche enthusiast, although I certainly wasn't then. And we'd do job interviews. I would sometimes, in the job interview, ask people, what do you think of the Volvo S60R? That was like a litmus test if they're a car enthusiast. It was just enough. Like, what do you think of the Mustang is like too obvious, right?

• 1:24:44Speaker 04

  I like that question.

• 1:24:44Doug DeMuro?

  Yeah. So anyway, what are the most if you know, you know car? Lotus Carlton.

• 1:24:49Speaker 04

  A V70R. I'm not going to give that 60R a pass because those are $3,000 cars now for a bad one on Facebook Marketplace.

• 1:24:55Doug DeMuro?

  Really?

• 1:24:56Speaker 04

  But a 70R, yeah, they got them real cheap. A V70R. If you know, you know.

• 1:25:01Doug DeMuro?

  Don't you think it's a Lotus Carlton?

• 1:25:03Speaker 04

  A Lotus Carlton is so niche though.

• 1:25:05Doug DeMuro?

  That's what I'm saying though.

• 1:25:06Speaker 04

  But like, I think about this as like, you see a car and you're like, oh, that person's an enthusiast.

• 1:25:10Doug DeMuro?

  Lotus Carlton.

• 1:25:11Speaker 04

  Yeah, sure. When did that happen?

• 1:25:14Doug DeMuro?

  Dude, 40RA.

• 1:25:17Speaker 04

  Yesterday, we were having dinner and then on my drive home, I saw a guy in a Saab 900 Turbo and I knew he was an enthusiast. I waved.

• 1:25:24Speaker 01

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• 1:25:53Speaker 05

  I think you have to be more specific. I think if it's like, like if I see a new car, someone driving a new car, like what identifies me? Yeah, but the point. You could say basically any old car. The guy who drives an AMC Pacer who lives near you, that guy's an enthusiast.

• 1:26:06Doug DeMuro?

  No, but he's.

• 1:26:06Speaker 04

  Here's a question.

• 1:26:07Speaker 05

  Fifty years old.

• 1:26:07Doug DeMuro?

  Here's a question for you that's on the same vein. What car, when you see it on the street, are you certain an enthusiast will be driving? Obviously Ferrari or.

• 1:26:15Speaker 04

  Carrera GT.

• 1:26:16Doug DeMuro?

  I wouldn't.

• 1:26:16Speaker 04

  But. Carrera GT maybe, but I'm not even gonna give that.

• 1:26:19Doug DeMuro?

  Question back a little. Let me, a car that you're, is certain enthusiasts driving that you see regularly? What is the most likely?

• 1:26:26Speaker 04

  I'm not even gonna give you Carrera GT. Well, if you see a driving dirt enthusiast, but if you see somebody that owns one, they don't.

• 1:26:31Doug DeMuro?

  Fine, but I'm saying, car you see around, car you see once a week at least, what is the car that is the most likely to be enthusiast that you see once a week? You see at least once a week?

• 1:26:39Speaker 04

  You could.

• 1:26:39Doug DeMuro?

  Who? I haven't seen a lease in like two years on the road.

• 1:26:42Speaker 04

  I think, you, you see a Lotus lease, you know.

• 1:26:45Doug DeMuro?

  Okay, I'm talking about a car with regular, I'll tell you, I'll tell you why this, I'll tell you why this question comes up. I drive my sports cars and I am astonished when I pull up next to a GTI and the person doesn't look at the Countach. Or when I pull up next to a 997, the person doesn't look at the Carrera GT and it suggests to me that there's a lot of non enthusiast driving enthusiast cars. So I'm curious, what is the most likely enthusiast car? Yes, an Elise.

• 1:27:07Speaker 05

  One of, one of the Miatas, one of the.

• 1:27:09Doug DeMuro?

  The issue is there's so many.

• 1:27:10Speaker 05

  Not the NC.

• 1:27:11Doug DeMuro?

  You don't think.

• 1:27:11Speaker 04

  So many automatic NDs.

• 1:27:12Doug DeMuro?

  Yeah, you don't think, you don't think that there's a lot of Tipp Miatas out there that are just bought by like an older person who wants a convertible?

• 1:27:18Speaker 05

  If they have the, the BBS, if I see the BBS wheels, I know.

• 1:27:22Doug DeMuro?

  How often do you see that though?

• 1:27:23Speaker 05

  I see them on cabins all the time.

• 1:27:25Doug DeMuro?

  You get my point.

• 1:27:26Speaker 05

  But you get.

• 1:27:26Doug DeMuro?

  What is the car?

• 1:27:27Speaker 05

  That's, if I don't see them often, that's the point.

• 1:27:29Speaker 04

  A, a non-current 911 of any kind.

• 1:27:31Doug DeMuro?

  Yeah, a non-current 911. 991 though, even though.

• 1:27:34Speaker 04

  No, no, a pre 991 911.

• 1:27:37Speaker 05

  I don't know.

• 1:27:37Speaker 04

  I see them around.

• 1:27:38Doug DeMuro?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 1:27:39Speaker 05

  But I don't know, but I do see, but I still see enthusiast cars that are driven by non, like there's an E46 M3 in our, in this neighborhood, missing a grill.

• 1:27:46Doug DeMuro?

  That's actually a good one, M cars.

• 1:27:48Speaker 05

  But, but, yeah, a lot of M, there are a lot of M cars.

• 1:27:50Doug DeMuro?

  STI, I will say STIs and Zs I see almost every day. They are enthusiasts, but I have found in talking to those people that a lot of times they're just enthusiasts of that community and don't really know all, like the Carrera GT goes by, it's like a Porsche to them, right?

• 1:28:03Speaker 04

  Once the, once the M340i started existing, M cars, you're right. Cause they like, like people that are only vaguely into cars will buy the M340 or the C43 AMG or whatever and leave the top pinnacle.

• 1:28:15Doug DeMuro?

  Yeah, for real enthusiasts. Yeah, that's probably true.

• 1:28:18Speaker 04

  Something along those lines.

• 1:28:19Doug DeMuro?

  Okay, last question. This is a good one from Bread Bowl. It's a long podcast today. I got no qualms about it. Good pod. From Bread Bowl. Hello Doug and friends. I'm of the opinion that normal cars become enthusiast cars after a certain period of time. What do you think is the period of time that it takes for a normal car to reach enthusiast status? Can you go to Camry? Can you pull up Camry on Cars and Bids?

• 1:28:34Speaker 04

  What, 20 years?

• 1:28:34Doug DeMuro?

  No, just type in Camry. Yeah, yeah. When I was a kid, this generation of Camry was hated by everybody. It was the best generation of Camry. This is my point. Car enthusiasts thought this was kind of representative of sort of the decline of the automobile. If you went on internet forums in 2002, all people would talk about is boring people just buy these Camry's and Accords and they're just buy these boring, milquetoast, stupid cars that are just so dull and they can't, nobody wants to have fun on the road anymore. 20 years later, I've noticed there has become this beloved interest in cars like this.

• 1:29:13Doug DeMuro?

  And I'm so astonished by it because I was there. I remember. People hate, not only did people hate this car enthusiast, but they truly viewed this car as a visible representation of the decline of automotive enthusiasm. And now if you go to Radwood, people are like, oh, man, I got a clean RAV4. That was, people, that car was like a boring, front-wheel-drive BS car that we were all rallying against. Now the cars have become electric and, and even people are like, oh, these were gas cars. This was the, so cool. That's not my reaction. I think it's so funny.

• 1:29:46Speaker 04

  I think that we as a community, by the way, my interest is academic. At the time, I also thought this is the best one. My interest is academic in nature, but I think that, that people have appreciation for cars that are kept well that shouldn't have been.

• 1:30:00Doug DeMuro?

  That's true.

• 1:30:00Speaker 04

  It's not that people think there's a good platform or that it's like a fun car.

• 1:30:04Doug DeMuro?

  But if you, I agree.

• 1:30:05Speaker 04

  Enthusiasm for it.

• 1:30:06Doug DeMuro?

  But people say this was like the best Camry. And when I was there, it was not being said.

• 1:30:12Speaker 04

  Well, the generation before that was, is like the strong contender. So it's the hard.

• 1:30:15Doug DeMuro?

  Both of them, both of them were truly considered. It's like how liberals now feel about W. Bush. They're like, oh, he wasn't so bad. That wasn't the conversation then. I'll tell you.

• 1:30:26Doug DeMuro?

  But, but the Camry is a good example. Go back to it. Like all of these Camry's are now, we're, we're running them on this enthusiast website and they get love. And people are like, oh, I have fond memories. At the time, they weren't fond memories. You hated your dad if he came home in one of these. You were like, why did you get this instead of something cool? Like Maxima. We had that car, except it was, it had hubcaps and a four cylinder. We weren't rich like this guy. And a gold package. Oh, man. This is a different level. Different level. Doing well. I, I think the answer is 20 to 25 years. Yeah, the answer is 30 years. Yep. That's, and it's So that's not cool enough for you? Well, this is 25. Yeah. It's, it's, it's, it's, I'll tell you this, the O2 Camry is not cool yet. We did sell one, but The O2, where? It's going down a little bit. It's on the night show. You know the one I'm talking about with the, with the ugly headlight? This. This car is not cool yet.

• 1:31:11Doug DeMuro?

  I agree. You're right. Not cool yet. Have you driven one of those? Seeing without a dent. I'm sure over time. It's, it's so But the previous one that ended in O1 has become cool. So there's a 25 year mark there. What about Accords? The ending in O2. The ending in O2 one is cool, but the O3 is not cool yet. The O6 hybrid, O5, O6 hybrid. We agree the O3 Accord was the best Accord ever made, though. One of the best cars ever. Okay. There are three generations in a row that are, I think are competitors. The one before that, the 98 to 02. And the one before that, the 94 to 97 is, I think, the best actual product. No. They all got stolen. Doesn't mean it wasn't a good They got stolen. They got stolen because they were good products. Any car that you could start with a spoon is not the best car ever made. 98 to 02 is

• 1:31:55Doug DeMuro?

  You have to at least need to use some sort of spoon knife hybrid tool. Spork. Yeah. Okay. That's the end of the pod. We're way over time. This pod is way too long. Don't watch it. If you've watched it this far, you've made a mistake. If you've watched it this far, go rate us on Apple Podcasts or on Spotify. It helps. Yeah. I don't know what that means, but I think you should do it or not do it. Go see Filippo and Cannon in Atlanta. It's in like two weeks. I don't know what we're gonna do about the pod when they're gone. It's just me rambling about the 993 Turbo. I'm staying here to be with you. Filippo's going there to do something with an Aston Martin. I don't know. I am. I'm filming a little video with an Aston Martin Veyron. You know, it kinda, it kinda looks like a 959. There's like a little 959 here. That's what we tell ourselves in the community. You know what the difference? 993, it looks good. Oh! Goodbye, everybody. Best podcast we've ever done.

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