#349: LeBron James and His Top-Secret Trainer, Mike Mancias

This episode represents the first time that LeBron James has been interviewed alongside his very below-the-radar, some might say top-secret, athletic trainer about details of training, recovery, diet, and even how much longer he hopes to play in the NBA. LeBron James (@KingJames https://twitter.com/@KingJames) is widely considered one of the greatest athletes of his generation and regarded by some as the best basketball player of all time. James' accomplishments on the court include four NBA Most Valuable Players Awards, three NBA Championships and three NBA Finals MVP Awards, two Olympic gold medals, and an NBA scoring title. He is the all-time NBA playoffs scoring leader and has amassed fourteen NBA All-Star game appearances, twelve All-NBA First Team selections, and five All-Defensive First Team honors. Throughout his career, James has used his platform to inspire and empower others through his LeBron James Family Foundation http://lebronjamesfamilyfoundation.org/ that supports at-risk students in his hometown earn life-changing educations (culminating in the recent opening of his I PROMISE School http://www.ipromise.school/); SpringHill Entertainment http://shentertainment.com/, the entertainment company he co-founded with Maverick Carter that produces compelling and aspirational content for a cross-cultural audience on a variety of platforms including digital, film, and television; and UNINTERRUPTED https://www.uninterrupted.com/, the digital media company he and Carter co-founded that provides athletes a platform to tell their stories. James' diverse business portfolio of innovative endorsements and investments has established him as one of the most influential figures in all of sports. James has appeared on Forbes' list of the world's most powerful celebrities, TIME's annual list of the 100 most influential people in the world, and Bloomberg BusinessWeek's 100 Most Influential People in Sports. LeBron, along with Arnold Schwarzenegger, Cindy Crawford, and Olympic gold medalist Lindsey Vonn, has founded Ladder http://weareladder.com, a health and wellness platform and brand launching today. The site, weareladder.com http://weareladder.com, is a resource for reaching fitness, nutrition, and health goals with tools and scientifically supported insights for addressing any frustrations or roadblocks along the way. Mike Mancias (@mikemancias1 https://twitter.com/mikemancias1) is LeBron James' athletic trainer and recovery specialist, a position he's held for 14 years and counting. A veteran in the world of training professional basketball players, his experience also includes working with NFL, MLB, PGA, and top NCAA athletes. Throughout his tenure with LeBron, Mike has quietly developed a winning human-performance blueprint that encompasses everything from preventative medicine, strength training/rehab, nutrition, and the latest in recovery techniques. Mike's philosophy is one that is now commonly accepted by many athletes and trainers as the ideal 360-degree approach to wellness and performance. It was through this focus on nutrition to performance and recovery that Mancias aided in developing the Ladder https://weareladder.com/ brand and its products. Originally from Brownsville, Texas, Mancias attended the University of Texas-Pan American and graduated with a degree in Health Education. He is licensed and nationally certified by the Accredited National Athletic Trainers Association and is a 14-year member of The National Basketball Athletic Trainers Association. Please enjoy! This episode is brought to you by 99designs http://99designs.com/tim. 99designs is the global creative platform that makes it easy for designers and clients to work together. From logos to apps and packaging to books, 99designs is the go-to design resource for any budget. I have used it for years to help with display advertising and illustrations and to rapid prototype the cover for The Tao of Seneca. Whether your business needs a logo, website design, business card, or anything you can imagine, check out 99designs http://99designs.com/tim. 99designs’ designer search tool connects you directly with one designer based on design category or industry specialization, style, skill level, availability and more. Or, you can start a contest - invite the entire community to take a shot at your project - then you pick your favorite. Right now you guys, my listeners, can receive a free $99 upgrade on your first design contest. To check out your first free upgrade, please visit 99designs.com/Tim http://99designs.com/Tim and click on the link in the landing page. This podcast is also brought to you by Peloton https://www.onepeloton.com/, which has become a staple of my daily routine. I picked up this bike after seeing the success of my friend Kevin Rose, and I've been enjoying it more than I ever imagined. Peloton is an indoor cycling bike that brings live studio classes right to your home. No worrying about fitting classes into your busy schedule or making it to a studio with a crazy commute. New classes are added every day, and this includes options led by elite NYC instructors in your own living room. You can even live stream studio classes taught by the world's best instructors, or find your favorite class on demand. Peloton https://www.onepeloton.com/ is offering listeners to this show a special offer. Visit onepeloton.com https://www.onepeloton.com/ and enter the code TIM at checkout to receive $100 off accessories with your Peloton bike purchase. This is a great way to get in your workouts, or an incredible gift. Again, that's onepeloton.com https://www.onepeloton.com/ and enter the code TIM. *** If you enjoy the podcast, would you please consider leaving a short review on Apple Podcasts https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/the-tim-ferriss-show/id863897795?mt=2/iTunes? It takes less than 60 seconds, and it really makes a difference in helping to convince hard-to-get guests. I also love reading the reviews! For show notes and past guests, please visit tim.blog/podcast https://tim.blog/podcast/?utm_source=podcast&utm_medium=podcast&utm_campaign=podcast-description. Sign up for Tim’s email newsletter (“5-Bullet Friday”) at tim.blog/friday https://go.tim.blog/5-bullet-friday-1/. For transcripts of episodes, go to tim.blog/transcripts http://tim.blog/transcripts. 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Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:01Speaker 00

  At this altitude, I can run flat out for a half mile before my hands start shaking. Can I ask you a personal question?

• 0:08Speaker 01

  Now would be an inappropriate time.

• 0:12Speaker 00

  I'm a cybernetic organism, living tissue over metal endoskeleton.

• 0:24Tim Ferriss?

  This episode is brought to you by 99designs. 99designs is the global creative platform that makes it easy for designers and clients to work together. From logos to apps, and packaging to books, 99designs is the go-to design resource for any budget. I've used 99designs for many, many years now. I've used them for book covers, for instance, mock-ups for The Four Hour Body, which went on to become a number one New York Times bestseller, illustrations for my multi-volume The Tao of Seneca, and other graphic design projects. And I've been really impressed by the quality of their designers and the designs that I've ended up using. Most recently, I used 99designs to update the illustrations and layouts of my Five Morning Rituals ebook.

• 1:08Tim Ferriss?

  This covers my most consistent morning routines and rituals. And I offer that as an incentive for people to sign up for my newsletter. So this is a PDF bonus that acts as a carrot to increase the number of email subscribers. The illustrations inside are gorgeous, and I loved working with the designer who we selected for the project. So you can check it out. Take a look at that at 99designs.com/tim. That's the number 99designs.com/tim. And you can see exactly what I'm talking about with a real-world example of what has come out of working with them. 99designs Designer Search Tool connects you directly with one designer based on design

• 1:51Tim Ferriss?

  category or industry specialization, style, skill level, availability, and more. So you can really check all the boxes that you need and see who matches up. Or you can start a contest. And that means you invite the entire community to take a shot at your project, then you pick your favorite. Right now, you guys, my listeners that is, can receive a free $99 upgrade on your first design contest. So check it out. To see what it looks like to get your first free upgrade, please visit 99designs.com/tim and click on the link in the landing page. So again, check it out, 99designs.com/tim.

• 2:33Tim Ferriss?

  This episode is brought to you by Peloton, which I've been using probably for about a year now. Peloton is a cutting-edge indoor cycling bike that brings live studio classes right into your home. You can also do on-demand, which is what I do, we'll come back to that. So you don't have to worry about fitting classes into a busy schedule, or making it to a studio or gym with a hectic or unpredictable commute. I, for instance, have a Peloton bike right in my master bedroom at home, and it's one of the first things I do many mornings. I wake up, I meditate for a bit, then I knock out a short 20-minute ride in my undies, hard to do that at the gym, take a shower, and I'm in higher gear for the rest of the day. It's really convenient and has become something that I look forward to. So you have a lot of options. For one, if you like, you can ride live with thousands of other

• 3:17Tim Ferriss?

  riders across the country on an interactive leaderboard to keep you motivated. There are also up to 14 new classes added every day with more than 8,000 classes on-demand, and you can pick based on length, 45 minutes, 20 minutes, whatever, music, hip-hop, rock and roll, or say, low-impact versus high-intensity or interval. You can pick the class structure and style that works for you. And in my case, I quite like Matt Wilpers, and I tend to do on-demand and listen to a lot of and watch many of the same classes over and over, but I'm kind of promiscuous and also enjoy classes from a lot of the other instructors. They have Peloton, an amazing roster of incredible instructors in New York City with a whole range of styles and personalities, so you can find what you're in the mood for.

• 3:59Tim Ferriss?

  You also get real-time metrics that you can use to track your performance over time, and that will help, I would say catalyze you to beat your personal best. Now, that all sounds good, right? Gamification, yada, yada, yada. I didn't think that it would work for me or in any way incentivize me, but they really 100% hit the nail on the head. I was very, very impressed with how motivating it was, and it worked tremendously to keep me pushing, which quite honestly takes a fair amount. Get quite lazy, particularly with anything that edges on endurance, which is kind of more than five reps of anything for me. So, check it out. Discover this cutting-edge indoor cycling bike that brings a studio experience right to your home. Peloton is

• 4:41Tim Ferriss?

  offering listeners of this podcast a limited time offer. Go to onepeloton.com, that's O-N-E, Peloton, P-E-L-O-T-O-N, dot com, and enter the code TIM, all caps, at checkout and get $100 off of accessories with your Peloton bike purchase. So, get a great workout at home anytime you want. Check it out. Go to onepeloton.com and use the code TIM to get started.

• 5:10Tim Ferriss?

  Hello, boys and girls. This is Tim Ferriss and welcome to another episode of The Tim Ferriss Show. This is a very special episode because it represents the first time that LeBron James has been interviewed alongside his very below-the-radar, some might say, top-secret athletic trainer about details of training, recovery, diet, and even how much longer he hopes to play in the NBA. And I did not have, as you might expect, with King James, the usual two-and-a-half, three, three-and-a-half, four hours. So, it is a neat 60 minutes, might come in a tad under that. And I was nervous and perhaps even a little over-caffeinated to make the most of the time. So, you have that going for

• 5:50Tim Ferriss?

  you. LeBron James, who is that? @KingJames on Instagram and Twitter, LeBronJames.com, is widely considered one of the greatest athletes of his generation and is regarded by some as the best basketball player of all time. This interview was recorded the day after he passed Wilt Chamberlain's all-time scoring record. LeBron's accomplishments on the court include four NBA Most Valuable Player awards, MVP awards, three NBA Championships and three NBA Finals MVP awards, two Olympic gold medals, and an NBA scoring title. He is the all-time NBA playoff scoring leader and has amassed 14 NBA All-Star Game appearances, 12 All-NBA First Team selections, and 5 All-Defensive First Team honors.

• 6:34Tim Ferriss?

  Throughout his career, James has used his platform to inspire and empower others through his LeBron James Family Foundation, which you can find at LeBronJamesFamilyFoundation.org, that helps at-risk students in his hometown earn life-changing educations, culminating, most recently, in the opening of his I Promise School, which you can find at ipromise-school. He's also involved with Spring Hill Entertainment, the entertainment company he cofounded with Maverick Carter that produces compelling and aspirational content for a cross-cultural audience on a variety of platforms, including digital film and television, and Uninterrupted, a digital media company he and Carter cofounded that provides athletes with a platform to tell their stories. LeBron has a really diverse business portfolio.

• 7:19Tim Ferriss?

  We won't be able to get into all of it right now, but includes all sorts of innovative endorsement deals and have established him as one of the most influential figures in all of sports. James has appeared on Forbes' List of the World's Most Powerful Celebrities, Time's Annual List of the 100 Most Influential People in the World, and Bloomberg Businessweek's 100 Most Influential People in Sports. And now LeBron, along with Arnold Schwarzenegger, Cindy Crawford, and Olympic gold medalist Lindsey Vonn, has founded Ladder, a health and wellness platform and brand that is launching today. The site, weare ladder dot com, is a resource for reaching fitness, nutrition, and health goals with tools and scientifically-supported insights for addressing any frustrations or roadblocks along the way.

• 8:03Tim Ferriss?

  Ladder also offers a community of experts for holding you accountable and nutrition products that are all NSF-certified for sport, which is considered the gold standard for sports testing and approved by all major sports teams and the IOC, that is the International Olympic Committee. Ladder products contain no artificial ingredients, no artificial sweeteners, no fillers, and no proprietary blends. Now, allow me to introduce the other person in this interview, and then we'll get right to it. Mike Mancias. Mike Mancias, @MikeMancias1, that's M-A-N-C-I-A-S, on Instagram and Twitter, is LeBron James Athletic Trainer and Recovery Specialist, a position he's held for 14 years and counting. A veteran in the world of training professional basketball players, his experience also includes

• 8:48Tim Ferriss?

  working with NFL, MLB, PGA, and top NCAA athletes. Throughout his tenure with LeBron, Mike has quietly developed a winning human performance blueprint that encompasses everything from preventative medicine, strength training and rehab, nutrition, and the latest in recovery techniques, some of which we talk about in this interview. Mike's philosophy is one that is now commonly accepted by many athletes and trainers as the ideal 360-degree approach to wellness and performance. It was through this focus on nutrition, performance, and recovery that Mancias aided in developing the Ladder brand and its products. Originally from Brownsville, Texas, Mancias attended the University of Texas Pan American and graduated with a degree in health education. He is licensed and nationally certified by the Accredited National Athletic Trainers Association

• 9:33Tim Ferriss?

  and is a 14-year member of the National Basketball Athletic Trainers Association. That is the introduction, and without further ado, please enjoy this wide-ranging conversation with none other than King James, LeBron James, and Mike Mancias. LeBron and Mike, welcome to the show.

• 9:55Speaker 03

  Thanks, Tim. Thanks for having us.

• 9:57Tim Ferriss?

  Appreciate it. Thank you, bud. My pleasure. I am thrilled to have the two of you on, in part because it is so difficult to do research on the two of you together, which is fascinating to me. Mike, you're like the Banksy of elite trainers. I see your art that is the product of the work that you do on television and everywhere, but you are like Batman. It's impossible to do research on you, which is really exciting for me as someone who's made a job of doing that. So I thought we could jump right into questions. On my mind and questions on many minds and we'll begin with a little bit of context and maybe LeBron if you want to take this. How did the two of you first meet? You seem to have a very special relationship.

• 10:41Tim Ferriss?

  I'd love to just get a little bit of background and your thoughts on what makes the relationship work so well.

• 10:47Speaker 03

  Yeah, my second year in the NBA with the Cavs, Mike was interning with the Cavs at the time and you know, every day you kind of, I was trying to figure out a way how I could be more consistent with my training and be more consistent with, you know, just trying to make the jump from my rookie year to my second year. And you know, not only from afar, but from up close, I saw the demeanor and the laser focus in Mike every single day on what he was doing and I kind of resonated with that and I just, you know, we started to have conversations, we started to talk more and

• 11:30Speaker 03

  more every day and the relationship started to grow every single, single day and you know, I believe, you know, the rest is history at this point.

• 11:40Tim Ferriss?

  So you two have done so much together, spent so much time together. Mike, I'd love to dig into, I suppose more than a few things, but to begin with recovery and injury prevention. I mean LeBron, you had such a momentous evening last night, so congratulations of course on that and you're a bit of a unicorn in the sense that you've played more than, as I understand it, 50,000 minutes in your career, most hit a wall and deteriorate after say 40,000. So you're defying all the predictions of player decline. So Mike, maybe you can give us a window into some of that and I've, in the course of trying

• 12:22Tim Ferriss?

  to do research, read about say recovery between games, which I've picked up, maybe not true, electro-stimulation machines, air-pumped compression sleeves, soft tissue. Could you walk us through some of the tools of the trade and the approaches that you use to help with recovery in between games?

• 12:43Speaker 04

  Yeah, yeah, Tim. Well, I think with LeBron, with any, you know, elite athlete, I think the one thing that we all as trainers and therapists have to keep in mind is that recovery never ends, recovery never stops.

• 12:57Speaker 04

  You know, if LeBron plays 40 minutes one night, if he plays, you know, 28 minutes one night, we're still going to keep recovery as a number one focus, whether that be in nutrition, whether that be in hydration, more flexibility exercises, stuff in the weight room. It's a never-ending process, really. And I think that's the approach that we must take in order for us to be successful and provide longevity for these guys.

• 13:24Tim Ferriss?

  And if we look at just, say, the first few hours after particularly intense games, what is some of the triage that you pull out of your bag to use?

• 13:36Speaker 04

  Well, we'll do like a quick Q and A in the locker room. I kind of get a quick assessment as to, okay, how did the game go? You know, how was this feeling? How was this feeling, etc.? And LeBron will give us some feedback on how we felt after each and every game, believe it or not. So we'll do that, number one. And then we'll start our process of hydration and nutrition, you know, because he does spend a lot of energy out there. So we need to make sure that we feed him the right calories, calories in like a protein shake, etc., you know, a water or a sports drink. And number one, frankly, is just some good food, some good high-quality food. So that's number one, right?

• 14:21Speaker 04

  Like, right off the bat after a game, it's nutrition. From there, we go into, you know, like a crowd therapy, either a cold tank, ice bags, a crowd therapy chamber, you know, whatever may be available at that particular night.

• 14:37Tim Ferriss?

  And if we're looking at general injury prevention, are there any particular, and I'll give one example, I've interviewed a number of Olympic sprint coaches, and in some cases, they'll take something like the deadlift, but they'll modify it so that they're only lifting to the knee, and they'll drop so they're not risking hamstring injuries with the negatives. Are there any particular exercises that you feel are tremendously important for injury prevention, or any that you avoid because you think that they could produce injuries?

• 15:10Speaker 04

  Well, I think with that question, I think every athlete is different, you know, based on their, you know, just based on their, on their body makeup. And so we have to, number one, you know, before even prescribing any exercises, we have to do a quick assessment of their body, you know, is, you know, do they have any factors that are limiting their range of motion? We'll start, you know, we'll start from the very bottom, and that's, that's the big toe, you know, how much movement do you have in your big toe? And then you go up the chain, you know, the ankle, the knee, the hip, the low back, and the shoulders, et cetera. Once you get a quick assessment, then you can start to, you know, kind of tweak your workout routine by adding or subtracting, you know, different exercises.

• 15:53Speaker 04

  The second part of that is, okay, who are you dealing with? You know, the Bronsman of the league, this is, he's starting his 16th year in the NBA. He's played a lot of minutes, you know, high-quality minutes. And so, you know, you just have to be smart as to your, your prescription.

• 16:10Tim Ferriss?

  And LeBron, do you think that, if you look at, for instance, the big names that came into the league around the same time that you did, it's staggering to see how few of them are still playing, and yet here you are, playing as the best in the NBA. Are there any particular approaches you've taken, or things that you attribute that to?

• 16:36Speaker 04

  Well, I can't speak on any other players, or anybody that came in around my time, or a little bit after me, or not too far when I came in. But I know me personally, I've just been very consistent with the process. I've been very consistent with training my body, rehabbing my body, you know, eating, you know, you know, having my body be very clean throughout this journey, because I've always wanted to have a long, you know, long career, or as long as I could be, you know, in this, in this, in this, in this space. So I've always kind of, you know, a friend of mine, when I was like 13 years old, he used to always tell me, you know, play hard, have fun, and then...

• 17:20Speaker 03

  And stretch, you know, every game, always play hard, have fun and stretch. And and that kind of always kind of stuck with me to when even when I got in the NBA like always stretching and keeping my body flexible. Keeping my limbs flexible. Um, so you know, I can contribute to that. And doing it consistently, just like leadership, you know, leadership is not. Uh, a one day thing, or you do it for two days or two months. Leadership is consistent, you know, and I believe, you know, having longevity and the space that I'm in is also consistently as well. Not only on the floor, but off the floor as well.

• 17:54Tim Ferriss?

  So I'm glad you mentioned leadership. I was gonna get to it, but since we're already on topic. I spotted a a picture of you with a copy of Leadership in Turbulent Times, which is a a book by Doris Kearns Goodwin. Uh, who's who's also been on the podcast. And I've had a number of people ask me to ask you about leadership. Are there any particular leaders you admire or or look to and study who come to mind?

• 18:27Speaker 03

  Um, you know what's crazy, Tim? I I I never grew up. Um, looking for other leaders and saying I wanna be them or or. Using what they did to incorporate it into me. Um, I I believe that it was. You know, it was put on me before I even wanted to be a leader. Uh, my grandmother passed away when I was three years old and she was kind of the staple of the home. Um, and my mother had me when she was sixteen, but she was still in school. So. You know, being an only child, being one of the few men in the house, I kind of had to grow up and be kind of one of the leaders of the household very young. Before I even wanted to, before you were on any cow, any child to become a leader. And then once.

• 19:10Speaker 03

  You get into team sports and you you you find some success, but you see how you're succeeding. You understand that it's not just about you. You understand that, you know, in order for you to continue to be successful, everyone has to feel important. Everyone wants to, you know, feel like they had something to do with the success and be a part of it. And I sensed that, um, you know, at an early age and it's just continued until, you know, my adulthood as well. So I can't even sit here and say that I've, um, looked, you know, for leadership throughout others. Now I've admired leaders like, you know, Martin Luther King. Um, he's one of the greatest leaders I've ever, um, had an opportunity to just read about and and and watch.

• 19:51Speaker 03

  Um, from a from afar, obviously, um, you know, Muhammad Ali as well. Um, you know, as one, um, Barack Obama, um, i- is another. Um, and then my mother, I mean, I believe my mother is one of the greatest leaders and just in the fact that being a a single parent mother in the inner city without any financial stability and being able to raise a kid on her own at age sixteen. So, um, I had, um, you know, those examples, um, but for me, I've always kind of learned on the fly as well.

• 20:22Tim Ferriss?

  Your your mother, the the more I've done research, the more incredible your mother seems to me. How is, how has she impacted the way that you think about parenting or being a father?

• 20:35Speaker 03

  Um, well, from the beginning, you know, being a part of a single parent household when I, you know, when I found, when I've decided I want to have a family, you know, I was like, I'm I'm always going to be a part of my kid's life. And, uh, no matter what what goes on in my life, I I just can't, you know, have my kids have some of the same why questions that I had when I was younger. Um, and then it's about, you know, the perseverance and, um, the patience, um, of being a parent is what I learned from my mom. My mom was just so perseverant, um, and and to for for me, she never, um, had me in a situation where I felt like I wasn't special, like I wasn't, uh, one of the the the best kids in the world. And, um, and then from, you know, the that, like I said,

• 21:20Speaker 03

  That leadership standpoint, she was just always a rock. No matter what was going on, she was always a rock and and very patient with the process. And I and I've taken that not only to being a father, but you know, in life in general, I always preached this process thing because I I just fell in love with it. I fell in love with the process throughout my whole life and throughout my basketball career to a point where um I I don't I don't like to look at the ending. You know, because I like to just live in in the moment.

• 21:47Tim Ferriss?

  And the it's the, I think the consistency, which is is is such a focus for a lot of, at least my listeners. When they're looking at your career, it's it's been astonishing to watch over time. And many people want to know about the habits or the reminders, things along these lines. And one of the things I came across, I don't know if it's true, you could tell me, but did you at one point have Theodore Roosevelt's man in the arena quote in your locker?

• 22:18Speaker 03

  Uh, still do.

• 22:19Tim Ferriss?

  You still do? Why, why is?

• 22:22Speaker 03

  I write it, I write it on my shoes every game, too.

• 22:24Tim Ferriss?

  All right. Why is that important to you?

• 22:26Speaker 03

  Um, it's important, it just hit home for me at a point in time where um I was listening to people that I shouldn't have been listening to. Meaning, you know, there are always people out there that are gonna judge you and critique you and say that you should do this or you shouldn't do that. And and at that point in time, um, you know, I wasn't mature enough to just believe in the decisions that I've made. And I'm a true believer in the more and more that you listen to things like that, then it'll creep into your mind and you start to believe it. And once I started to study some of the great leaders that we've had in our in our in our time, I ran across that that quote from Theodore Roosevelt, the man in the arena.

• 23:08Speaker 03

  And it basically, um, for our listeners that don't know about it, it's basically saying that it it truly doesn't matter uh what anyone says. Um, because they they've never stepped inside the arena, they've never had the blood and the sweat and the tears or paid their dues um inside the arena. So they can't really understand or critique you about what you're was going on in your life. And that and that hit home for me. Um, and that stuck with me for, you know, to this day.

• 23:38Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah, it's such a tremendous, tremendous quote. Mike, I'd love to come back to something you mentioned earlier, which was recovery never ending and. If I'd like to talk about the suppose third of our lives or so that we spend asleep. Is there, is there, how do you think about sleep? And is there anything you do to optimize sleep or to help LeBron and others to optimize their sleep?

• 24:05Speaker 03

  By the way, Tim, he gets on me every single day.

• 24:10Speaker 03

  How much sleep did you get last night? How much sleep? How much sleep? He gets eight hours, he gets nine hours, all the time.

• 24:19Speaker 04

  Yeah, Tim, by the way, that muffling you hear in the background is LeBron actually removing his ice bags.

• 24:24Speaker 03

  Oh, yes.

• 24:26Tim Ferriss?

  No problem.

• 24:28Speaker 04

  Like, like we just said, recovery never stops, right? Well, we're, we're sitting here doing this podcast in Los Angeles. And LeBron is, is continuing to ice his knees and the rest of his body right now in the middle of this podcast.

• 24:41Tim Ferriss?

  And so, Mike, I'd love for to hear your thoughts on sleep. This is something that a lot of people struggle with and it would seem to be a very important potential asset for someone who is taxing his body as much as LeBron is.

• 24:56Speaker 04

  Absolutely, yeah. I mean, you know, we've always learned and we always told LeBron about the body does recover and it heals itself while, while we're asleep, while we reach our REM sleep and our deep sleep. So any athlete, any, you don't have to be a professional athlete, you know, whatever athlete at whatever level. You can be a businessman, a doctor, lawyer, etc. You know, you need your sleep, guys, and you, you must sleep in order to recover from, from whatever it is. Either playing an NBA game or, you know, a big night, a big day in the courtroom, you know, in a hospital room or whatever. You know, sleeping is when the body heals itself. So it's, it's, it's, it's very, very important.

• 25:37Tim Ferriss?

  Are there any particular techniques or tools or recommendations that, that you've found to be helpful with athletes or that you've, you've tested and found effective?

• 25:46Speaker 04

  Yeah, you know, without, you know, giving everybody all of our secrets, right? Um, you know, number one is be very, very comfortable, you know, in that room, you know, just create an environment. Um, you know, for us, it's always, you know, for LeBron, it's always in his hotel room, making sure the temperature is set at a particular, you know, probably sixty-eight to seventy degrees is probably optimal. Um, making sure the room is completely dark, you know, you have no distractions, trying to turn off, you know, your

• 26:18Speaker 03

  Electronics.

• 26:19Speaker 04

  All your electronics.

• 26:20Speaker 03

  TVs, all that stuff.

• 26:21Speaker 04

  Televisions, your phones, etc. Just turn everything off, um, probably half hour to forty-five minutes before you actually, um, you know, want to go to sleep and just really committing yourself to that, you know, we all love to scroll on the internet and our social media accounts at night, you know, to catch up on everything. But, um, you know, you owe it to yourself and you owe it to your recovery, uh, just to, just to commit to just, uh, creating an environment. Uh, again, uh, the room at an optimal temperature, uh, a dark, dark room, uh, you know, a comfortable bed, etc. And, um, you know, some people even use, uh, sleep apps, you know, like, uh, you know, like soft music or, uh, you know, uh.

• 27:04Speaker 03

  I love it. I love a nice sleep app.

• 27:06Speaker 04

  Oh, yeah.

• 27:07Tim Ferriss?

  What do you, what do you use, LeBron, currently or what do?

• 27:10Speaker 03

  Uh, it's an app called Calm, actually.

• 27:13Tim Ferriss?

  Oh, yeah.

• 27:14Speaker 03

  Yeah, and, and, and I'm the, I'm the guy who picks rain on leaves.

• 27:18Tim Ferriss?

  I love it.

• 27:20Speaker 03

  That is, that's, that's what go, that's what goes on on my phone throughout the night.

• 27:24Speaker 04

  There you have it, Tim. There you have it. Rain on leaves.

• 27:29Tim Ferriss?

  Rain on leaves, the secret to success. I love it. And, uh, LeBron, what has become more important to you from a health or wellness perspective as you've become older, more seasoned? Does anything come to mind as, as having become more important?

• 27:45Speaker 03

  Yeah, absolutely. This is what we're talking about right now, the topic that we own, sleep. I mean, it's, it's nothing more important than, you know, optimal, uh, REM sleep and that's, that's exactly what we're talking about right now. Like, you know, that's the best way for your body to physically and emotionally.

• 28:04Speaker 03

  Be able to recover and get back to a hundred percent as possible. Now, will you wake up and feel a hundred percent? There's some days you don't, so some days you feel better than others. But the more and more and more time that you get, those eight, those, if you can get nine, that's amazing. Sometimes I even get ten hours of sleep. Um, and if I don't get those eight to nine hours at night, then I'll go home. Um, I'm gonna tell you right now, Tim, when I leave here, I'm gonna go home and take me a nap. For probably about two and a half hours too. Um, I just think that's just the best way to recover. I mean, is it, I, I, I could do all the training. Um, I could do all the, the, the ice bags and the, the normatex and everything that we do.

• 28:47Speaker 03

  That we have as far as our recovery package while I'm up. But when, when you're getting that good sleep, you, you just wake up and you feel fresh. There's, you, you don't need an alarm clock, you just feel like, okay, I can, I can tackle this day. At the highest level, um, that you can get to.

• 29:03Tim Ferriss?

  It, it, one thing I've also s- seemed to, uh, pick up just as a pattern is. Your willingness to experiment and I'm, I'm sure that goes for both of you. But, uh, the, the topic of diet is one I'd love to discuss. But it seems like you've tested many different diets, ranging from low carb to probably. High carb and everything in between. Could you give us an example of, of where you are now? Like, let's take just yesterday. Uh, could you tell us about some of the meals that you had? Or some of the food that you consumed yesterday, what that looks like?

• 29:37Speaker 03

  Hold on, let me, let me think about it.

• 29:39Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah.

• 29:40Speaker 03

  Uh, yesterday I had a egg white omelet with the, um, with smoked salmon. Um, and gluten free pancakes with, uh, just, uh, berries. Um, that was my breakfast. Uh, for lunch, I had whole wheat pasta, salmon and vegetables. And right before the game, I had a peanut butter and jelly sandwich. And at halftime, I had, uh, sliced, uh, apples with almond butter on top. Um, right after the game, Mike gave me a protein shake, uh, to put in my system right after. I downed that right after the game last night. And then, um, for dinner, I had, um, I had chicken parm with a rocket salad.

• 30:25Speaker 03

  And a beautiful glass of Cabernet.

• 30:29Tim Ferriss?

  You have no idea how happy that detail makes me. Thank you for that.

• 30:34Speaker 03

  That was my full day of, uh, yeah, that was it right there.

• 30:38Tim Ferriss?

  You also have a very good memory. Uh, and, and I've been meaning to, I wasn't sure how to shoehorn this in, but you gave me an opening. You enjoy your wine.

• 30:49Speaker 03

  I do.

• 30:49Tim Ferriss?

  Do you have any favorite wines that you can, that you can mention or types of wines?

• 30:55Speaker 03

  Um, yeah, I have so many, Jim. I can't sit here and say what is my favorite. Um, but I am definitely a Bordeaux, uh, fan, huge Bordeaux fan. Um, there are some, um, you know, cabs that I love as well. Um, but there's some brands that I love as well. I love, you know, we get to the higher level as far as, you know, like, um, Screamin' Eagle, um, you know, uh, King Thorelli, um, you know, Rothschild. Um, there's just like a whole, uh, La Tour. Um, there's so many different, uh, wines that I actually love.

• 31:39Speaker 03

  Um, so we, we, we be sitting here all day if I get you the fullness of my, uh, of my cellar that I got going on at home.

• 31:47Tim Ferriss?

  That's, that's round two. Uh, King Ja- King James Sommelier, that'll be the next episode. Is there, is there anything that, and this, this, this can go out to either of you guys, but anything that you will not touch? Is there, besides the obvious kind of out of bounds, uh, illicit stuff, but are there any foods or drinks? Anything in the food realm that you really just try to avoid a hundred percent?

• 32:12Speaker 03

  Yeah, I think, um, right now what we try to stay away from, and you know, I don't want to say even try to stay away from, we haven't had in a long time is artificial drinks, uh, artificial sugars. Um, and, uh, fried foods. Um, I know we kind of stay away from the fried foods, at least during the season. And, and that's the both. That's the both accounts. You know, I have, you know, artificial drinks, you know, from time to time in off season. Um, but during the season, I, I, I pretty much don't have any fried foods. And I don't have anything that's artificial. We want to keep it as, um, you know, as. You know, just natural sugars, um, and, you know, the foods as, as, as much as possible. Just try to be clean as possible throughout the season when I'm burning so much and, and trying to get the recovery back.

• 32:57Speaker 04

  It's, uh, Tim, it's, uh, it's all about less is more as far as nutrition goes. You know, we just, uh, keep it simple. So, uh, we try to stay organic the entire year. Um, again, like, like LeBron just mentioned, no artificial, um, ingredients. Um, you know, and just, uh, and hydration. I, I think, uh, one thing that, uh, we talked about yesterday is game day. Uh, was that, uh, every, every time I saw Bron, I had a, a, a bottle of water in his face, making sure he was drinking.

• 33:25Tim Ferriss?

  Mm-hmm.

• 33:26Speaker 04

  That's, uh, that's one thing.

• 33:27Tim Ferriss?

  And Mike, I want, to, to come back to one thing that LeBron mentioned, uh, I would, I'd be very curious to know if you have, post-game, if you have a preferred type of protein, doesn't have to be a brand, although it could be, but are you providing whey protein isolate? Are you providing a mixture of different proteins? What, what are you giving him in that protein, that protein shake?

• 33:48Speaker 04

  Um, right after a game, I try to, I, I try to go light with it. I don't give him a, a heavy whey protein. Um, because his body is, is, is in a recovery phase, right? And he, he needs to absorb everything that, that he can, everything clean, like we just mentioned. So I try to give him a, uh, a, a plant-based protein powder. Um, you know, with like an almond milk or something like that, uh, with some fruits. Um, and just, just clean calories and just, just give him clean calories. Cause, um, the first 30 minutes after activity, you know, after a game, after a practice, uh, practice, et cetera, um, you know, the, the body's like a sponge and it's going to absorb, um, you know, what, what, whatever you give it. So I, I just try to stay clean, stay, stay away from animal products, uh, for the first

• 34:31Speaker 04

  hour, um, you know, after, after, you know, high calorie competition.

• 34:35Tim Ferriss?

  Thank you. Uh, LeBron, I, I would, uh, love to chat about, uh,

• 34:42Tim Ferriss?

  Self-talk for a minute because I've I've watched you playing, I've watched video footage of you throughout your life and it's it's obvious to me at least, it seems that that there's quite a bit going on behind behind the scenes, meaning in your own head and that you're very good at centering yourself. What do you say to yourself, or is there anything in particular that you say to yourself? As you're getting prepared for a big game or right before a big game? Uh, or after a hard loss, for instance?

• 35:16Speaker 03

  Yeah, I think for me personally, before a big game, I'm um, I'm pretty consistent with my routine and you know, I try to do the same thing um, every single day on a game day, um, because that's just how I lock in and so right before I run on the floor, I'm just basically thinking about um, the game plan that the coaching staff has given us. Um, what do I need to do personally, not only for me to be successful, for my teammates to ultimately be successful? And how am I lead these guys throughout good times and bad times throughout the course of a game? Because that's what happens. Um, it's inevitable that that's gonna happen. Um, and then, um, to to your notion of after a bad loss, I'm kind of re-thinking about and replaying the game to my head. Um, what happened

• 36:02Speaker 03

  uh, throughout the course of the game that made this loss become a bad loss? What did I do? What did I not do? What did we not do? Um, you know, because I want to be better. I don't want to dwell on that loss. Um, but I do want to know what there were things that I could have done or we could have done to prevent it if it happens next time. Because I always preach, you know, the best teacher in life is experience and and it's okay for you to experience defeat, but when you you're at a position where you may have to cross that that threshold again, do you approach it the same way? Or do you learn from that? And that's what I try to do. I try to put myself in a mental state of how do I learn from that defeat? How do I learn from that loss?

• 36:44Tim Ferriss?

  Uh huh. And and you're the leader of

• 36:49Tim Ferriss?

  Guys on a team who are all multimillionaires, some of the best athletes in the world with all sorts of different personalities, how do you, how do you think about supporting them when things go sideways or when people get frustrated? How do you, how have you learned to be most helpful and effective in those circumstances?

• 37:09Speaker 03

  I think if one, the number one thing is patience. And I think when I talk about patience, it comes back to being a father. You know, I have three kids and I want the best out of my kids, just like any parent in the world. But what I've learned is that to get the best out of my three kids, I can't approach them all the same way because they all have different personalities. They all are different. And I had to find out, how do I tap into each one of my kids to get the same result, but teach them differently? And that's the same with being the leader of a basketball team, the leader of a franchise.

• 37:49Speaker 03

  You may not, you can't, you can't express or talk to everyone the same way and expect to get the same result or get the most out of them because every personality is different. So, one thing I may say to one player may trigger a certain, a different response than another player. And that's where the patience comes in, Tim, because you have to learn that. You can't go in and say, this is how I'm a lead. Yes, I'm a leader, but there's ways to lead because you have to learn those things that you can, you know, how do you approach this man? If this happens, you know how you can speak to him, you know, how you can speak to, to this player, to that player, to get what you want to get out of them.

• 38:28Speaker 03

  So, it comes back to that, that patience of learning their mindsets, learning how can you get the most out of them, what triggers them to be best, to be their best, what triggers them to not be their best. So, you, you, you learn that over time.

• 38:43Tim Ferriss?

  And in the case of your own pregame routine... I I I'm fascinated by the repetition of of routines that work as it as it stands right now, what what do you have in your pregame playlist? What is what is what is the music that that you listen to?

• 39:03Speaker 03

  Uh, it's gonna be hip hop for sure.

• 39:04Tim Ferriss?

  Any specifics?

• 39:07Speaker 03

  No, there's, you know, it's crazy, Tim, there's no specifics. It's like when I, when I, once I start my routine, what basically, once I get to the arena, that's when I start my routine as far as music. It it's just, it's a feel for an artist that particular time that I know is gonna get me going. And and it could be an artist from um, from New York, it could be an artist from California, it could be an artist from Florida, from Texas, from the Midwest. It all depends on what what artist pops into my head that I know is gonna get me going, get my juices flowing, um, and get and get my routine going. So I I don't have like a just a set game day routine. It I'm all over the place and and that's that comes also from being a a historian of of of music as well.

• 39:52Tim Ferriss?

  Mm hmm. What is what is your tattoo? I've I've wanted to ask this, there's no real obvious segue for this, but I've wanted to know, uh, because it seems to be an important theme in your life, uh, that the tattoo that you have loyalty on your side, could you explain what that means to you?

• 40:12Speaker 03

  Yeah, um, and on my other side, it says family.

• 40:15Tim Ferriss?

  Right.

• 40:16Speaker 03

  Um, you know, it's basically, it's self explanatory. You know, when I talk about my family, um, you know, my family is everything to me and and and it's it's a personal mantra of mine to always be loyal to my family, you know, not, you know, you're gonna have ups and downs, um, with your family, that happens. Um, there's gonna be times where, you know, you don't like what your family do, or your family don't likes what you do, but at the end of the day, we're all loyal to to one another and, you know, and and that's okay, that happens, that's what a family is. A family, you know, is not a bed of roses, it comes with thorns and you have to understand that. But at the end of the day, we will never let someone else infiltrate those thorns. And, you know, so when I got that tattooed on my on my ribs, um, that's basically what

• 40:59Speaker 03

  it came down to, family loyalty and and us always sticking together no matter, um, the trials and tribulations, the turbulence, the good, the bad, the ugly, uh, the sunshine and the thunderstorm. So that's what it came down to.

• 41:15Tim Ferriss?

  And Mike, if I could use that to lead into a question for you. How do you support your athletes when they're going through a difficult time? Whether that is an injury, an unexpected setback, psychologically having trouble contending with something that has happened, whether it's on the court or off the court? Are there any particular approaches that you've found to be helpful? Whether it's in the last few years or just over the course of your career?

• 41:48Speaker 04

  Yeah, I think the number one thing for me has always been remain consistent. Remain consistent through the ups and downs and everything in between, as LeBron said. Because if there is a setback, if there is something going on. You know, I always have to remain consistent with my job and with what I do. Now, I can always add or augment, you know, something that I feel might be beneficial. If it's something as small as, I don't know, a certain gift of kindness, you know, just asking about the family, you know, are things okay outside of basketball?

• 42:31Speaker 04

  Are things okay outside of, you know, the athletic realm, the athletic world? And just try to be there for them. Just try to be there for them through, again, it's all great when, you know, we're scoring 45 points tonight and doing all these wonderful things, but is the athlete okay? Is the athlete doing well mentally and spiritually? And so I try to address it, you know, in a multifaceted fashion.

• 42:59Tim Ferriss?

  And for you, Mike, in the offseason, how do your priorities change, if at all, for, say, LeBron, in terms of training and anything else that comes to mind?

• 43:11Speaker 04

  I think in the offseason, we have to be smart. You know, LeBron gives everything he has for these nine months. You know, and so my job is to be is to be smart about what we're doing as far as the volume of training that we're doing, you know, and how much I see him, although we do, you know, tend to see each other pretty much every other day in the summertime, but it's what we're doing and it's, you know, managing and engaging his body throughout the summertime.

• 43:42Speaker 03

  Yeah, he's a lot more calm than I am, Tim, in the summertime.

• 43:46Speaker 03

  He consistently tells me, hey, listen, man, you need to take a little bit more time off. We just went for nine and a half straight months and I'm like, oh.

• 43:54Speaker 04

  Yeah, we have to pull the reins a little bit sometimes.

• 43:59Tim Ferriss?

  Do you, LeBron, have any, any particular favorite exercises or forms of physical recreation in the offseason? I've read about yoga, Pilates, Versaclimber has come up a lot. Are there, are there, are there any, any particular ingredients that you like to regularly inject into your offseason?

• 44:22Speaker 03

  Yeah, besides the Versaclimber, I actually really like running on the football field.

• 44:28Speaker 03

  For two reasons, you're outside, which is always a cool way to, to exercise. And then it kind of takes me back to my high school days of playing the game of football.

• 44:38Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah.

• 44:38Speaker 03

  You know, and, and I just have a huge deep love of the game of football. So, you know, get, being able to get that conditioning and get that cardio, being outside, but also being back on the football field, it just does something for me personally.

• 44:51Tim Ferriss?

  And what, what might one of those workouts look like? Are you doing 400 meter repeats? Are you doing long, steady and slow? What do you, what type of workout?

• 45:00Speaker 03

  It's more like 100 yard sprints, you know, from end zone to end zone. And we, we don't never have like a set number of how many we want to do, but we, we do enough to, we want to get our heart rate going, you know, while we out there.

• 45:13Tim Ferriss?

  And how do you, how do you decide when to stop? Because that would seem to be really critical for.

• 45:21Speaker 03

  Like you said, like you hear Mike just say he pulls the reins. He says, okay, now that's enough.

• 45:30Tim Ferriss?

  Mike, a name that's come up a lot in doing research for this conversation is Tim Grover. And could you explain who that is and what you've learned from him?

• 45:44Speaker 04

  Well, me growing up, you know, I'll take it back a little bit. You know, I was a big Jordan fan, a big, you know, Chicago Bulls fan. And so I was doing my own research, you know, back when, you know, all you had was, you know, you know, press instead of the internet. And so I was doing, just asking around, you know, reading, you know, reading up on Jordan and the stuff that he was doing for his body. So his name came up a lot of times. And so I finally, I gathered the stones to get, to reach out to Tim.

• 46:20Speaker 04

  You know, just somehow I tracked down his number and I told him what I wanted to do. I wanted to learn from him. And he says, okay, well, why don't you come up to Chicago? And, you know, kind of intern for us for a couple of weeks. MJ will be with us. He'll be getting ready to work with the Washington Wizards. You know, he just signed his deal with the Wizards. And so I'm in the middle of doing that. So you're more than welcome to come up and, you know. Thank God, thank God that I caught Tim in a great mood that day. And so, you know, so he invited me up to Chicago and I spent a few weeks with him and with, along with MJ. And I learned a lot. I learned a lot in those two weeks.

• 47:00Speaker 04

  I learned, you know, how to, how to work with an elite athlete of Michael's stature. So it was invaluable. I learned what to do, what not to do, what, you know, stuff I should stay away from, stuff I should really augment. So it was a great education, a great educational experience for me.

• 47:22Tim Ferriss?

  In terms of things to stay away from, was there, was there anything that sticks out in your mind as a key learning or takeaway in that department? Or it could be one of the other categories, but is there any, anything specific that, that comes to mind?

• 47:37Speaker 04

  Anything specific as far as an athlete training, working with an athlete of that caliber is to remain consistent, to remain consistent. You know, there's no particular exercise, there's no particular stretch. It's all about your own mindset and your own confidence working with someone like Mike and now obviously working with someone like LeBron. So it's all about how to approach it mentally and how to be consistent for that athlete. Again, just be that rock.

• 48:06Tim Ferriss?

  Consistency. So this is a good opportunity. Oh, I'm sorry, go ahead.

• 48:11Speaker 04

  And available, and available, you know, 24/7.

• 48:14Speaker 03

  Yeah, I may wake up at like 3 o'clock in the morning, want to get a workout in.

• 48:17Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 48:20Tim Ferriss?

  On demand, which I think is a good window to start chatting about a new collaboration that you're both involved with. LeBron, you've become a very active businessman and investor over the course of your career and there are many things we could discuss related to that. But one that I think is very relevant to our conversation right now is ladder. And there are a lot of people out there who are constantly asking themselves and every time they get to New Year's, make resolutions related to loving and not dreading fitness and wellness.

• 49:01Tim Ferriss?

  And you're trying to find a way to attack it that leads them to passion and not feeling burdened with responsibility. Could you guys, and either one of you can grab this, explain what ladder is and what is the purpose behind it?

• 49:21Speaker 04

  I think with the whole idea behind ladder and, you know, starting this company, it started way back probably around 2014. We were kind of in a crossroads of, okay, what else can we add to our routine as far as nutrition goes? You know, I felt like we were just beginning to scratch the surface as to what was available out there. But unfortunately, we found that, you know, some of the stuff that's out there, you know, they, all these big companies have all these proprietary blends. And we weren't sure, you know, okay, what exactly is in these proprietary blends? And so, you know, we will start with the company, we will start with something off the shelf that...

• 50:07Speaker 04

  Was NSF certified, but you know, we just didn't, didn't want to take the chance of, of, you know, to continue to use these products. Uh, and so, you know, we, we, we got together with, with LJ and said, uh, you know, let's really do some more research as to what, what is out there that, that, that is not available for us, um, and, and why not? And so we, we started to do some more research, um, after 2014, when unfortunately he experienced, uh, you know, I think, uh, the, the much-publicized, uh, and critiqued, uh, cramping game in 2014 during the finals. Um, you know, that's when, when LeBron and I really got together and said, okay, what are we missing here? You know, what, why are we cramping here? Uh, we're

• 50:50Speaker 04

  doing everything we can for hydration. Now, let's, let's, let's dive deeper into this because it's obviously affecting our performance and, and our productivity. You know, maybe to some degree it cost us the championship. So, um, we, we, we started doing, like I said, more and more research as to what's out there and, and just, we, we finally came up with the, with the right ingredients. And you know what? Like, like we mentioned earlier, we kept it simple. We kept it really, really simple and very transparent, uh, to the public as to what, what we were, uh, what, what's, what's in these products.

• 51:20Tim Ferriss?

  Right. And it's, it's, uh, you mentioned a few things that I want to underscore for folks also, you know, the NSF certified for sport, which is, you know, effectively considered the gold standard for testing and approved by not only the major sports teams, but the IOC and so on. So for, for, for competitors, extremely important to, to know exactly what you're putting into your bodies for, uh, any, any number of, of, of reasons. Uh, but, and, and for, for people who are, uh, looking for supplementation or, uh, tools to augment, uh, their physical activity, uh, you've, you've also assembled a

• 52:01Tim Ferriss?

  A very strong team of founders. So I was wondering if you could chat a little bit about the people involved and why that particular team has been assembled for this?

• 52:12Speaker 03

  Well, I could talk about that, Tim. You know, obviously, two of our founders are Arnold Schwarzenegger and Cindy Crawford. And I can speak upon Arnold. For one, we've been in business for quite a while now together through a mutual friend of ours. And obviously, his history of what he's done in his career as far as nutrition and training and things that goes without even talking about. We know how unbelievable he's been in his career. So that makeup and that match fit perfectly. And also, the same with Cindy Crawford as well. You know, she's been doing the wellness and the

• 52:55Speaker 03

  health and the training and everything she's been doing throughout her whole life. And it made sense for her to be a part of the team as well. And we also have, you know, Lindsey Vonn as well, you know, one of the greatest, you know, athletes of her genre and her craft as well. So we wanted to be able to assemble not only people that actually live this life, but also people that people can relate to as well. So it all made sense for all of us.

• 53:27Tim Ferriss?

  And looking at the materials that I reviewed, the message in effect of life is a workout and recognizing that the physical part of your life is really part of everything, right? I mean, it is the vehicle for everything else. And your mind is part of your body. So if you want to care for that, you also have to care for the overall package that is your physical totality. LeBron, you must have thousands of opportunities come to you and get pitched to you. I would imagine on not just an annual basis, but a monthly or weekly basis. I mean, you could drown in the number of pitches you would receive. Why is this important to you?

• 54:10Speaker 03

  Well, I think it goes back to what Mike was speaking upon. You know, we had that moment during the finals. We were kind of mind boggled because we know how much, you know, we know how much we take care of the body. We know how much we, you know, put into the body, what we put into our body. We know how much liquids and throughout the whole day and for that to happen at a very important moment in my career, we were searching for answers. And for us to get to this point now where we found the answers, I told Mike, listen, you go out and do the research. I trust you. I've been with you for over a decade plus now. Only thing I ask is that we make sure that everything

• 54:52Speaker 03

  is clean because that's, you know, that's what's most important than anything, you know. I've trained my body. We've trained our body throughout this whole process and you know my body more than I know it. So that's how it all got started and I think, you know, everything that I've ever done, Tim, has always been authentic to myself. I mean, you know, authentic to what I do on a day to day basis. If it's from, you know, a few years ago, having a bike-a-thon in my hometown, it all stemmed from me training, riding mountain bikes in the summertime for getting back into shape, you know. So that's how that came about. If it's anything that I've done in my career has always been

• 55:35Speaker 03

  authentic to who I am. You look at, like you said, some of the things that I'm doing now as far as the production of TV shows and things of that nature, it stems from me loving TV and loving the fact that being to engage people's mind and emotions and things of that nature is authentic to myself. And that's what, that's what Ladder is all about as well.

• 55:54Tim Ferriss?

  And is Ladder also going to have an editorial resource component because of the URL, weare ladder dot com, as I understand it, is also going to have a lot of answers to questions with scientifically supported responses to topics ranging from, you know, fitness to nutrition to various types of health problems. How do you envision, you know, Mike, maybe if you want to chat on that side of things, how do you envision that serving people and what would people go there to find?

• 56:33Speaker 04

  Yeah, I mean, it's a, you know, we want to provide a one-stop shop for athletes and for, you know, for everyone else, you know, who's interested in, in, in maybe, you know, getting some sort of gain from, from not only a product, but, but from just a lifestyle stance here. You know, we could all improve, we could all improve in, in whatever field that we're in, whether, you know, we, we take it by leaps and bounds, or we take it by inches. We could all, we could all improve. And part of it is creating that environment, you know, but by, by environment, I mean, that website, you know, the social media stuff where athletes can go in and tap into our resources. And our resources, you know, it's

• 57:17Speaker 04

  going to be a panel of, of, of experts in, in their field, you know, and not only athletic performance, but, you know, social behaviors, psychological behaviors, mental stuff. It's, it's, it's all vital. It's all vital. And it's more about the athletic realm. It's about living your best life, I guess, you know, and, and improving.

• 57:36Tim Ferriss?

  Uh, this is, this is something that, that fits a very particular sort of Venn diagram for me, which is something that was born out of the two of you scratching your own itch, right? You mentioned the, the cramping in 2014, and I, I'm always most interested when a service or product is born out of an unaddressed need, an unmet need from one of the founders themselves. And it seems like you'll be making tools available to people that would otherwise, well, perhaps be, be limited to some of these high-level

• 58:16Tim Ferriss?

  athletes you mentioned. And that's exciting. I would, I would also be remiss if I didn't ask you, LeBron, and we'll, I know we, we have just a few minutes left here, but how many more years would you like to play?

• 58:32Speaker 03

  I would love to see the floor with my son.

• 58:36Tim Ferriss?

  Amazing.

• 58:37Speaker 03

  My son is in the 8th grade now. If he continues on the path that he's on right now, he could possibly be in the NBA in 5, 6 years.

• 58:46Tim Ferriss?

  Amazing.

• 58:49Speaker 03

  That would be, that would be an unbelievable moment for not only myself, but for my family, for my, for everybody. So, we'll see. Obviously, taking care of the body is number 1, and we will, you know. Do that, but more importantly, taking care of the mind. If your mind's not fresh, then your body will fall at the waistline. So, through the grace of the man above, and through everything that myself and Mike and my support team do, that would be, that would be pretty dang on cool if I'm able to be on the NBA floor with my older son.

• 59:21Tim Ferriss?

  That would be amazing. Well, I look forward to watching that. And you guys have been very generous with your time. I appreciate you making it happen. And I'm very excited to see what both of you do and what Ladder does. People can find Ladder at weareladder.com. Of course, LeBron, you're everywhere at @KingJames on Twitter and Instagram, LeBron on Facebook. Mike, I'm not sure, smoke signals, carrier pigeon? How should people, how should people find you? If there is a way to find you? Or should they just, just watch your good deeds through the, through the athletes that you work with?

• 59:57Speaker 04

  You know what? I think our body works together. You know, with LeBron on the court, I think that's, that's, that's proof in itself. If you do want to follow on Instagram, it's @MikeMancius1. And that's, I think I have the same Twitter handle as well.

• 1:00:14Tim Ferriss?

  Perfect.

• 1:00:15Speaker 04

  I'm pretty sure.

• 1:00:20Speaker 04

  It's all good, it's all good. And it's an exciting journey for me.

• 1:00:23Speaker 03

  Absolutely.

• 1:00:24Tim Ferriss?

  Beautiful.

• 1:00:25Speaker 04

  For us.

• 1:00:26Tim Ferriss?

  And I will link to everything we've discussed, people listening, in the show notes as per usual, at tim.blog/podcast. And LeBron, we didn't have time today to get into the family foundation, but you're doing incredible work. And I want to just thank you, among many other things, for doing so much for the kids of Akron. I think it's, it's really tremendous. I've looked very closely at it myself for inspiration for things I hope to do. So, I appreciate you putting that much time and effort and care back into the community that you came from. I appreciate it, Tim. Thank you very much. All right. Well, guys, I will let you get running. You have icing to do. You have, who knows what else to get done in the meantime. And I wish you both the best of luck and look forward to seeing what you guys do.

• 1:01:10Tim Ferriss?

  Thank you, Tim. Take care. Thanks very much. Bye-bye.

• 1:01:15Tim Ferriss?

  Hey, guys. This is Tim again. Just a few more things before you take off. Number one, this is Five Bullet Friday. Do you want to get a short email from me? Would you enjoy getting a short email from me every Friday that provides a little morsel of fun before the weekend? And Five Bullet Friday is a very short email where I share the coolest things I've found or that I've been pondering over the week. That could include favorite new albums that I've discovered. It could include gizmos and gadgets and all sorts of weird shit that I've somehow dug up in the world of the esoteric, as I do. It could include favorite articles that I've read and that I've shared with my close friends,

• 1:01:56Tim Ferriss?

  for instance. And it's very short. It's just a little tiny bite of goodness before you head off for the weekend. So if you want to receive that, check it out. Just go to fourhourworkweek.com. That's fourhourworkweek.com, all spelled out, and just drop in your email and you will get the very next one. And if you sign up, I hope you enjoy it. This episode is brought to you by Peloton, which I've been using probably for about a year now. Peloton is a cutting-edge indoor cycling bike that brings live studio classes right into your home. You can also do on-demand, which is what I do. We'll come back to that. So you don't have to worry about fitting classes into a busy schedule or making it to a studio or gym with a hectic or unpredictable commute. I, for instance, have a Peloton bike

• 1:02:38Tim Ferriss?

  right in my master bedroom at home, and it's one of the first things I do many mornings. I wake up, I meditate for a bit, then I knock out a short 20-minute ride in my undies - hard to do that at the gym - take a shower, and I'm in higher gear for the rest of the day. It's really convenient and has become something that I look forward to. So you have a lot of options. For one, if you like, you can ride live with thousands of other riders across the country on an interactive leaderboard to keep you motivated. There are also up To 14 new classes added every day with more than 8,000 classes on demand. And you can pick based on length, 45 minutes, 20 minutes, whatever. Music, hip hop, rock and roll, or say low impact versus high intensity or interval. You can pick the class structure and style that works for you.

• 1:03:21Tim Ferriss?

  And in my case, I quite like Matt Wilpers and I tend to do on demand and listen to a lot of and watch many of the same classes over and over. But I'm kind of promiscuous and also enjoy classes from a lot of the other instructors. They have Peloton, an amazing roster of incredible instructors in New York City with a whole range of styles and personalities. So you can find what you're in the mood for. You also get real time metrics that you can use to track your performance over time. And that will help, I would say catalyze you to beat your personal best. Now that all sounds good, right? Gamification, yada, yada, yada. I didn't think that it would work for me or in any way incentivize me, but they really 100% hit the nail on the head. I was very, very impressed with how motivating it was.

• 1:04:05Tim Ferriss?

  And it worked tremendously to keep me pushing, which quite honestly takes a fair amount. I can get quite lazy, particularly with anything that edges on endurance, which is kind of more than five reps of anything for me. So, check it out. Discover this cutting edge indoor cycling bike that brings the studio experience right to your home. Peloton is offering listeners of this podcast a limited time offer. Go to onepeloton.com, that's O-N-E, Peloton, P-E-L-O-T-O-N, dot com and enter the code TIM, all caps, at checkout and get $100 off of accessories with your Peloton bike purchase. So, get a great workout at home, anytime you want. Check it out.

• 1:04:46Tim Ferriss?

  Go to onepeloton.com and use the code TIM to get started. This episode is brought to you by 99designs. 99designs is the global creative platform that makes it easy for designers and clients to work together. From logos to apps, packaging to books, 99designs is the go-to design resource for any budget. I've used 99designs for many, many years now. I've used them for book covers, for instance, mockups for the Four Hour Body, which went on to become a number one New York Times bestseller. Illustrations for my multi-volume The Tao of Seneca and other graphic design projects. And I've been really impressed by the quality of their designers and the designs that I've been abusing.

• 1:05:27Tim Ferriss?

  Most recently, I used 99designs to update the illustrations and layouts of my Five Morning Rituals ebook. This covers my most consistent morning routines and rituals. And I offer that as an incentive for people to sign up for my newsletter. So this is a PDF bonus that acts as a carrot to increase the number of email subscribers. The illustrations inside are gorgeous, and I loved working with the designer who we selected for the project. So you can check it out. Take a look at that at 99designs.com/tim. That's the number 99designs.com/tim. And you can see exactly what I'm talking about with a real-world example of what has come out of working with them.

• 1:06:12Tim Ferriss?

  99designs Designer Search Tool connects you directly with one designer based on design category or industry specialization, style, skill level, availability, and more. So you can really check all the boxes that you need and see who matches up. Or you can start a contest. And that means you invite the entire community to take a shot at your project, then you pick your favorite. Right now, you guys, my listeners that is, can receive a free $99 upgrade on your first design contest. So check it out. To see what it looks like to get your first free upgrade, please visit 99designs.com/tim and click on the link in the landing page. So again, check it out, 99designs.com/tim.