KHC 171 - Jeff Browning

Jeff Browning - nicknamed "Bronco Billy" (or simply "Bronco"), is a highly accomplished American ultramarathon runner and endurance coach. He's widely regarded as one of the most successful and consistent ultrarunners, particularly in mountainous and extreme terrain races. Join us for a conversation about Jeff’s remarkable 26-year career in ultramarathons, sharing insights into the evolution of coaching and performance in the sport, his deep passion for ultra running, adventure, and storytelling. Jeff discusses the unique camaraderie and connections formed while competing against fellow runners, his take on the Lift. Run. Shoot. experience, footwear choices, training, and more! Follow along: Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/cameronrhanes Twitter: https://twitter.com/cameronhanes Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/camhanes/ Website: https://www.cameronhanes.com Follow Jeff: https://www.instagram.com/gobroncobilly/ Timestamps: 00:00:00 – 26 Years of Running Ultra Marathons 00:06:32 – How Coaching Has Evolved & the History of Performance 00:13:05 – A Love for Ultra Running, Adventure, and Storytelling 00:18:12 – An Epic Storm at Hard Rock 00:26:39 – Sharing a Connection While Running with Competitors 00:29:18 – Jeff’s Thoughts on the Lift. Run. Shoot. Experience 00:37:08 – Max Jolliffe and Ian Sharman 00:41:07 – Partnering with Sponsors, Marketing, & Branding “Bronco Billy’ 00:51:35 – Footwear Sponsors, the Ultimate Running Shoe, & Working with KEEN 01:01:10 – What the Perfect Running Shoe Looks like to Jeff (Fit, Color, Boas, Laces, Etc) 01:06:17 – Making it as a Full Time Pro Runner & Having a Personality 01:14:16 – Diversity in the Sport (Woman Racers and Filmmaking) 01:17:00 – Conversation, Muscle for Longevity, and Mobility Training 01:32:46 – Jeff’s Ultra Running Mentors 01:38:26 – Up & Coming Racers: Hans Troyer and Rachel Entrekin 01:40:17 – Creating Iconic Ultra Running Films & the Film “The Chase” 01:50:59 – Giving Back Through Storytelling 01:54:20 – QA: F**k, Marry Kill: Western States, Hard Rock, UTMB 01:56:10 – QA: Is a 50K a Real Ultra Race? 01:58:08 – QA: A Race Against Kilian Korth at Cocodona 01:59:06 – QA: How do you Blend the Dirtbag Mentality with New Science? 02:02:01 – QA: What’s Ultra Running’s “Free Solo” Film? 02:05:09 – QA: How Can We Make People Who Don’t Run Truly get What Running Ultra Marathons Really Is Like? 02:08:23 – Final Thoughts Thank you to our sponsors: LMNT: Visit https://drinklmnt.com/cam for a free sample pack with any purchase Black Rifle Coffee: https://www.blackriflecoffee.com/ Use code KEEPHAMMERING for 20% your first order Ketone IQ: https://www.ketone.com/Cam use code CAM for 30% off your first subscription Grizzly Coolers: https://www.grizzlycoolers.com/ use code KEEPHAMMERING for 20% off Montana Knife Company: https://www.montanaknifecompany.com/ Use code CAM for 10% off MTN OPS Supplements: https://mtnops.com/ Use code KEEPHAMMERING for 20% off

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:15Cameron Hanes?

  We are live, baby. This is the Keep Hammering Collective with Jeff Browning, which the OGs know him as Bronco, right?

• 0:22Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 0:22Cameron Hanes?

  Is it Bronco? But it was Bronco Billy?

• 0:25Speaker 01

  It was the nickname was Bronco Billy, but all the OGs called me Bronco.

• 0:29Cameron Hanes?

  Bronco. And here, I'm just gonna say it right out of the gate. You've won 32 100 mile ultras, right?

• 0:36Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 0:37Cameron Hanes?

  That is nuts, dude. Not just finished, finishing 100 is, that's legit, but winning 32.

• 0:45Speaker 01

  Yep. 32 for 55 in hundreds.

• 0:49Cameron Hanes?

  That's a pretty good ratio.

• 0:51Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 0:51Cameron Hanes?

  That's a pretty good ratio. So, I mean, for those that don't know, Jeff is like a legend. I've run ultras since 2005, before that, but I've always known who you were, always like you were always this legendary figure either here and then you moved to Arizona, but just competing in ultras, you were the man. And it's a huge honor to have you here.

• 1:15Speaker 01

  Well, I'm honored to be here, dude. I'm a big fan of yours, too. I mean, country boy. I grew up a country boy. So, you know, watching you as a bow hunter, it's been awesome.

• 1:26Cameron Hanes?

  We have to, we have to represent the meat-eating redneck ultra runners.

• 1:31Speaker 01

  Yes, we do. Giddy up.

• 1:33Cameron Hanes?

  Giddy up. That's it. So, yeah, you can keep your salads. We're gonna, we'll focus on the hamburgers and steaks.

• 1:39Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's all about the protein.

• 1:43Speaker 01

  I love it.

• 1:44Cameron Hanes?

  And the ketone.

• 1:45Speaker 01

  Yeah, exactly.

• 1:48Speaker 01

  I just chucked mine off camera.

• 1:50Cameron Hanes?

  That's all right. I saw Michael Brandt put up a little reel today about, you know, my son's getting a lot of feedback on his new goal. And Michael Brandt's been a great friend. Ketone's a great partner for us, but I just love people who are paying attention to our world and keyed in and, you know, Michael's a good guy, but.

• 2:12Speaker 01

  Yeah, he's a good guy.

• 2:13Cameron Hanes?

  It's been, today's been just an epic day, dude. I mean, it's a huge honor to have you here. I've, I've wanted to have.

• 2:23Cameron Hanes?

  I mean, I'm, I'm big on the history of ultras, right? On, on just like how special the world of ultra running is. I know a lot, what's getting attention now is like the commercialization or the professionalism. Professional?

• 2:36Speaker 01

  Professionalization.

• 2:38Cameron Hanes?

  I was gonna say professionalism, but yeah, whatever the of ultra marathon and it's good. It's like we, we want people to be able to make a living racing.

• 2:47Speaker 01

  Yeah, totally.

• 2:48Cameron Hanes?

  Pushing their bodies, showing what's possible. But then on the flip side of that, we, we're worried, or not worried, but I'm cognizant of the history of it. And just how special dirtbag ultra runners are, just how, how it started.

• 3:04Speaker 01

  That's what we've been talking about today. It's the dirtbag, old school style.

• 3:07Cameron Hanes?

  Tell me, tell me.

• 3:09Speaker 01

  Driving to the race and sleeping in your car.

• 3:11Cameron Hanes?

  Tell me.

• 3:11Speaker 01

  Not in your, not in your giant van that has a bed in it, but like literally sleeping in your car.

• 3:17Cameron Hanes?

  What are those vans called now? The, that are like the, a house? What's that called?

• 3:21Speaker 01

  I don't know.

• 3:22Cameron Hanes?

  You know, like the.

• 3:23Speaker 01

  Oh, you mean like the, the RV thing?

• 3:25Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah, yeah. But what are those vans called? Don't they have a name? Like, uh, I don't know. Where they, my brother has one, just a little, but they have like kitchens and beds.

• 3:35Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's called glamping.

• 3:36Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah, so.

• 3:37Speaker 01

  I have that though now. I'm old. Okay.

• 3:39Cameron Hanes?

  Oh, that's okay.

• 3:40Speaker 01

  I have a slide in the back of my tundra.

• 3:41Cameron Hanes?

  We'll, we'll give you a pass. Um, it's a, but yeah, I mean, just to hearken back to the old days on just, hey, you show up and there's a, there's a phase. I remember my brother kind of mimicked Anton, but he was wearing like the Western button up.

• 3:54Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 3:55Cameron Hanes?

  Right? And you probably did that too, didn't you?

• 3:57Speaker 01

  I wa, yeah, we were, we played around with that. When I was a Patagonia athlete, they, we, we played around with having, they actually designed a, a Western style shirt that was like tech fabric.

• 4:06Cameron Hanes?

  Sick.

• 4:07Speaker 01

  Yeah, it was cool.

• 4:07Cameron Hanes?

  See, I love shit like that. Now we got Nike with these, look like a runaway model with all these holes in it. So it's like, come on, come on, guys.

• 4:16Speaker 01

  No, you can just cut holes in it.

• 4:19Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah, it's a

• 4:20Speaker 01

  I like that you have the cut up T-shirt like when we were lifting. That's old school dude. I used to, that's, that's, that's like old school eighties, baby.

• 4:29Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah, that's it. That's it. But, uh, yeah. So tell me about just, um, tell me about what it's been like on this journey. Tell, how long have you been running ultras? It's 20 some years.

• 4:40Speaker 01

  This is 2026. So this is my 26th season.

• 4:43Cameron Hanes?

  26 season. What, what has been the biggest change you've noticed just in the community?

• 4:50Speaker 01

  I mean, one is the, the amount of eyes on the sport now, just with like live feeds, YouTube, social media. Right. Has really driven a lot more eyes and, and also a lot more like, I want to be seen type of

• 5:04Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 5:05Speaker 01

  vibe to the, to the sport, maybe a little, um. Yeah. I mean, I, I think they, they, I don't know, like the sports really changed a lot. You know, it's gotten way more competitive. It's gotten more, um.

• 5:24Speaker 01

  I, what's a good word?

• 5:28Speaker 01

  People are trying to, to, um.

• 5:33Speaker 01

  Fast forward before they have the experience.

• 5:35Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah. I mean, this, I've talked about this on bow hunting, in bow hunting too, because it's also gaining popularity. But a lot of these young guys who are just so passionate, which I respect, but they want to be at the top. They want to skip a few steps.

• 5:50Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 5:50Cameron Hanes?

  You know, like it's bow hunting and ultra running. It's one of those things where it's really hard to skip any steps and make it to the top. It's about paying dues and paying dues. Sounds like, you know, no, you know, youngster, be patient. You, you got to earn this. Is that's, I'm talking about paying dues with learning lessons. I'm talking about learning lessons the hard way, which I know I did. You know, I, I struggled in ultra running and bow hunting is the same way where I, I get being the young guy and wanting to be, you're getting attention because young men, we want attention, right? For, for positive, for busting ass. So I get it. And is that what you're talking about? Guys who want to come in and just be at the top?

• 6:32Cameron Hanes?

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• 7:16Cameron Hanes?

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• 8:01Cameron Hanes?

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• 8:16Speaker 01

  Yeah, and I think that, well, and I think we do have better information and better coaching and now we have coaching. That wasn't around when I started, right?

• 8:23Cameron Hanes?

  Is that a coaching hat?

• 8:24Speaker 01

  Yeah, that's a coaching hat.

• 8:25Cameron Hanes?

  You gotta be a kick-ass coach because the way you are so dialed in on detail is impressive to me. So if you're, if you're treating your athletes and helping your athletes navigate nutrition and hydration and all the things that we talked about, then they're set up for success.

• 8:43Speaker 01

  Yeah, and I mean, also comes with like 26 years of experience too. So there's the, you know, I had to learn through trial and error. Now we can fast forward a little bit. So there is this benefit of technology, wearables, more information, like we have more history now and a history of performance even too, right? So like people are able to

• 9:06Speaker 01

  Be able to like skip say five years of trial and error, right? And I think that that's cool. That's a cool aspect of the sport. You know, you can on-ramp a lot quicker. We have guys getting into it younger.

• 9:17Cameron Hanes?

  So how like, how are they saving the five years? You mean like with the nutrition education?

• 9:21Speaker 01

  Yeah, if you have a coach like they're going to say, okay, try this, this, this many grams of carbs an hour, this much sodium per liter. And then all of a sudden, you know, they're not trying to figure that out over the rate over, you know, five races a year for the next four years. Right? And then by 20 races, they're like, okay, I got this dialed in, which is kind of how I had to do it.

• 9:41Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 9:41Speaker 01

  You know? Um, I mean, I had some mentors who gave me some tips. You know, guys, older guys you went out and ran with and they showed you routes.

• 9:48Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 9:49Speaker 01

  You know, this was pre GPS and this is pre like, you know, this is, this is pre social media, you know, we just had blogs.

• 9:57Cameron Hanes?

  Mm hmm. I, I, I remember.

• 9:58Speaker 01

  The blog era.

• 9:59Cameron Hanes?

  Oh, I remember it's like, does Iron Far still have? They used to be like a big website.

• 10:04Speaker 01

  Yeah, they're still there.

• 10:05Cameron Hanes?

  Okay, yeah.

• 10:06Speaker 01

  They're still out there.

• 10:06Cameron Hanes?

  Um, now, or, but I used to always have to go to the bookstore, look at Ultra Running Magazine.

• 10:12Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 10:12Cameron Hanes?

  Or for a while, Trail Runner was kind of cool, but Ultra Running Magazine had like the results in it, you know? So if you wanted results of a race, it would be like months later because I think that magazine came out maybe every other month, but.

• 10:23Speaker 01

  Yeah, it was every, it was every other month.

• 10:25Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 10:26Speaker 01

  It was, it was six months, six issues a year, I think.

• 10:28Cameron Hanes?

  Okay, so you'd have to wait for those to find out how anybody did any, anything, which I got a, I got a, not just social media. It's fun keeping track of people on social media, but, um, Ultra Sign Up, holy shit, that database is so fun. And it's like, I can't believe with all the ups and downs we've had in technology and different apps that they did so well so long ago. It's pretty impressive.

• 10:54Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah.

• 10:55Cameron Hanes?

  And it's still, all that history, you talk about history, all that history is there. And sometimes I'll go back and I'll look at like runners who are totally dominating right now and how they started. And it's, it's kind of good to look at that and be like.

• 11:09Speaker 01

  Like see the progression.

• 11:10Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah, like, oh, they weren't always legends. They started off just like everybody. So it's, it's kind of fun.

• 11:17Speaker 01

  No, I was there, the, I, I was at Western States when Jim Walmsley showed up in 2016.

• 11:22Cameron Hanes?

  Hmm. How'd that first one go for him? Is that the when he got lost?

• 11:26Speaker 01

  That that's when he went the wrong way.

• 11:27Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah, or got yeah, took the wrong turn.

• 11:29Speaker 01

  Yeah, he still finished, though. I gotta give him some props for that. Like, he wa- he like, basically walked it in.

• 11:35Cameron Hanes?

  You know, and that this got, I even talked about this, but this got a lot of attention this last year, but um, who was the past winner? Was it Adam Peterman?

• 11:45Speaker 01

  No, no. Oh, you mean last year?

• 11:47Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah, who? He didn't win. Um, no, he won before, but then this last year had a terrible race.

• 11:52Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 11:53Cameron Hanes?

  And wa- basically walked it in, but still finished.

• 11:55Speaker 01

  He still finished.

• 11:56Cameron Hanes?

  And as a past champion, getting like, whatever, 23, 24 hours, it's like.

• 12:01Speaker 01

  I think I passed him.

• 12:02Cameron Hanes?

  That.

• 12:03Speaker 01

  Cause I had a rough race, too, and I and I ended up pa- I was still running at the end. But he was, he was like, walking when I went by him.

• 12:09Cameron Hanes?

  But that, I think that, I like that.

• 12:11Speaker 01

  Yeah, I do, too. There's a lot of respect there. I mean, I understand now in the professional side, like, you might want to save your legs for another race, right? And go chase another podium or something. You know, I understand, I understand the drop, the drop mentality at the front of the pack. But I also come from the old school and it's like, I only have four DNFs in over 200 older marathons, so.

• 12:35Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 12:36Speaker 01

  I don't, I don't like to draw.

• 12:38Cameron Hanes?

  I, I get that. And I do, we have talked today, cause you're doing 100K coming up.

• 12:43Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 12:43Cameron Hanes?

  We talked about what those extra 38 miles do to your body. So, it's 62 is 100K, 100 mile, of course, 38 more miles. But what does that do to your body? It does a lot.

• 12:56Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 12:56Cameron Hanes?

  Because most of the damage is at the end of that.

• 12:58Speaker 01

  In the last 38.

• 12:59Cameron Hanes?

  Those last, so I can get, when you talk about professionalism or saving yourself for another day, I get that maybe dropping, say, we, you know, Roach, I think, dropped at Forest Hill. So may, he got criticized a lot, and I even said, whatever, but um, I, I guess, looking at that part of it, I can see why, you know, why, why there's an argument to, maybe that's a strategy.

• 13:23Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, it can be. Yeah.

• 13:25Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah, but uh. I like just people who grind it out too.

• 13:29Speaker 01

  Yeah, me too. I mean, I mean, your tagline is keep hammering.

• 13:32Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah, it's not keep hammering if everything's going great and you're having a good day.

• 13:36Speaker 01

  Well, mine's giddy up, so let's, let's giddy up.

• 13:39Cameron Hanes?

  But yeah, four DNS and 200, that's, that's a high finish rate.

• 13:44Speaker 01

  Yeah, they've all been injuries. Like my rule is either injury or life threatening.

• 13:49Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 13:50Speaker 01

  If it, if I'm affected, like my gait's affected and I'm limping or something, you know, then that's going to go up the chain and then that recovery is going to be a lot slower.

• 13:58Cameron Hanes?

  For sure.

• 13:59Speaker 01

  Right? And then I'm going to be out longer. So that's when it, for me, that was always the, it took 15 years. And for me to drop.

• 14:09Speaker 01

  And it was really hard. It was at UTMB and I took my whole family there.

• 14:13Cameron Hanes?

  What happened?

• 14:14Speaker 01

  Rolled my ankle. At like mile 11.

• 14:17Cameron Hanes?

  What?

• 14:18Speaker 01

  And I, I gimped on it for 50K and dropped to Core My, Core My Air. And so like I, it was, it was, I like, I kept going up and being like, no, I'm not going to do it. And I would go get med, tape it up and I'd go jog around the gym at Core My Air. And then I like come back and almost drop and then I'm like, I can't drop. I've never dropped.

• 14:36Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah, I get it.

• 14:38Speaker 01

  But it was smart.

• 14:38Cameron Hanes?

  That's tough. Yeah. You, I'm sure you made the right decision, but still.

• 14:41Speaker 01

  Well, I came back four weeks later and got the podium at UTMF in Japan, so.

• 14:46Cameron Hanes?

  Paid off then. It's a good decision.

• 14:48Speaker 01

  Yeah, it was a good decision.

• 14:49Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah. I mean, I'm, I'm curious, uh, after all these races, 26 years, what do you love about it? What do you love about ultra running?

• 14:59Speaker 01

  The training?

• 15:00Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 15:01Speaker 01

  I mean, I love the competition. I mean, I'm super competitive.

• 15:04Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 15:04Speaker 01

  But I do, and I love to race and I'd love to beat dudes half my age now, but, but I do, I mean, I really like that.

• 15:12Cameron Hanes?

  I'm sure. You're badass.

• 15:13Speaker 01

  I mean, I saw you talking trash in the, while we were lifting weights. So yeah, you get it. So I, I really do like.

• 15:19Cameron Hanes?

  I'm not good at winning. I'm good at talking trash.

• 15:23Speaker 01

  Yeah, I mean, um, what was the question? I forgot the question.

• 15:28Cameron Hanes?

  What do you love about ultra running?

• 15:29Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah, yeah. I love the training. I love the, I love the adventure. I love being in the woods. Um, I like being in wild places, you know, I like, I, I mean, I grew up like being in the woods. I was an outdoor kid my whole life. I live, I grew up on 700 acres, you know, like my playground was the creek. That was a half mile between my buddy's house and my house and we would call each other on the rotary phone and be like, hey, meet you at the creek. Okay, I'm leaving, you know, and then we'd both run a half mile of the creek and play all day.

• 15:59Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 15:59Speaker 01

  You know, so like that was always, you know, I was outside. I calmed up home off the bus, throw my bag inside. I didn't even go in the house. Like I'd open the door, throw it inside and I'd be outside, you know, um, I got in trouble a lot for all the grass stains on my jeans, you know?

• 16:13Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 16:14Speaker 01

  But I just played outside the whole time, you know, and

• 16:17Cameron Hanes?

  Seems like pure living.

• 16:18Speaker 01

  Yeah, and I still get that, you know, and then I, I became a graphic designer and then I'm, you know, now a coach, but I, I work in front of a computer. And so working in front of a computer, it's like, I need to get outside, man. Like I, I can't sit in the, inside the like, you know?

• 16:34Cameron Hanes?

  Fluorescent lights.

• 16:35Speaker 01

  Yeah, everything. I, I mean, every, every day at lunch, I'm out, you know, I'm not an early riser.

• 16:41Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 16:42Speaker 01

  Um, so I'm like out the door at lunch, you know?

• 16:45Cameron Hanes?

  I, uh, yeah, so I mean, you love, you love nature, you love being out.

• 16:51Speaker 01

  I love it and I love adventuring and like cool routes and aesthetics of a route, you know, that kind of stuff. I'm like with today, like going up Spencer Butte and on that ridge, man.

• 17:03Cameron Hanes?

  Today was awesome.

• 17:04Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 17:05Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah, I mean, this, I, I could do this every day. I basically do, but not with cool people. So it's, uh, it was so fun sharing this with you today. Um, yeah. But, uh, yeah, so what, I mean, what?

• 17:20Cameron Hanes?

  What do you hope Ultra still offers you now? What's your goals right now? To still win, dominate? What do you?

• 17:27Speaker 01

  In certain circumstances, maybe.

• 17:30Cameron Hanes?

  Pick your battles.

• 17:31Speaker 01

  Yeah, I'm picking my battles, but I also like, I'm to the point where I also am very interested in just adventure running and storytelling. You know, coming from like a graphic design, marketing and branding background and like art direction. Like, I really get into like the media side of things. Like, that's kind of a side passion, because I, you know, at heart, I'm an artist. You know, so like, I want, I want to be able to tell those stories and, and, you know, I grew up on a farm and around campfires and learning to tell good stories to people and, you know. I think I mentioned this today, it's just not about the words. Sometimes it's about the actions and like the animation of telling the story, you know?

• 18:14Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 18:14Speaker 01

  And really getting into the story and even like half-acting it out around the campfire or whatever. And I think that, that kind of stuff, I think that's how I want to give back as I'm getting older. Right? You know, I'm going to turn 55 this year, so I want to start, that history I have with, with mountain running. I want to show, I mean, it's taken me so many cool, amazing places, you know? That most people take a week to backpack to.

• 18:43Cameron Hanes?

  Right.

• 18:43Speaker 01

  Right? So I just want to be able to share that and tell those stories and I don't think it's all about racing, even though that's what I've been doing for 20, 25 years.

• 18:55Speaker 01

  But yeah, I mean, I want to give back too in that way.

• 18:59Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 18:59Speaker 01

  Yeah. And hopefully encourage people to get off the couch.

• 19:03Cameron Hanes?

  What, so, I mean, you talk about the story, what makes a good story in your, in your eyes? Tell me, tell me what's a good story?

• 19:10Speaker 01

  You need some adventure.

• 19:11Cameron Hanes?

  Okay, I like that.

• 19:13Speaker 01

  I think you need something that is, hopefully there's something happens that you're not expecting. You know, and I think that sometimes happens when we're in. How in the in the wild?

• 19:26Cameron Hanes?

  It's the unknown.

• 19:27Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 19:28Cameron Hanes?

  I mean, and even in a long, especially multi-day ultra, there's a lot of unknown, not in maybe the the country. We got the route, but what happens to to us along the way? What? And not like I'm not talking negative. I'm talking about the challenges that like, how did you overcome this? What happened when this weather came in? How? Tell me a story. How? You know, how did this go? How'd you feel during that? When you were is pouring rain, lightning striking? What? What were you thinking?

• 19:58Speaker 01

  I mean, I

• 19:58Cameron Hanes?

  How'd you feel?

• 19:59Speaker 01

  I mean, yeah, I mean, I've had all those experiences. I mean, I got pinned down for 75 minutes at Hard Rock in 2014 with lightning striking all around us above tree line at, you know, 13,000 feet in American Basin.

• 20:12Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 20:12Speaker 01

  And we were getting ready to go over Handi's, the 14er.

• 20:14Cameron Hanes?

  Hmm.

• 20:15Speaker 01

  And it was just socked in, just lighting up, you know, just lightning, lightning, lightning.

• 20:20Cameron Hanes?

  What was everybody doing?

• 20:22Speaker 01

  Well, so

• 20:22Cameron Hanes?

  Hunkered down?

• 20:23Speaker 01

  Well, I so I come I come up on Jason Coop.

• 20:25Cameron Hanes?

  Okay.

• 20:26Speaker 01

  And he's like hunkered down. And we were in fourth and fifth. Like, I was right behind him. And third had just gone over the top. And Adam Campbell just gone over the top. And they were in the first strike on top. And so it knocked out one of their headlamps, him and his Pacer. And so his Pacers headlamp got knocked out. So the two guys getting off the top.

• 20:48Cameron Hanes?

  Knocked out by the lightning?

• 20:50Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 20:50Cameron Hanes?

  Like electricity?

• 20:51Speaker 01

  They were in the charge.

• 20:52Cameron Hanes?

  Okay, gotcha.

• 20:52Speaker 01

  They didn't get direct hit. There was no burn marks on them, right?

• 20:55Cameron Hanes?

  But it took out their headlamp?

• 20:56Speaker 01

  Yeah, it took out one of their headlamps. So they had one headlamp to get off Vandy's. And they got over. But we got pinned down because it was right after the like dusk hit and it just started pouring rain. I'm talking like Midwest thunderstorm style, like cats and dogs.

• 21:11Cameron Hanes?

  Looks like midnight.

• 21:12Speaker 01

  Oh, dude. And it's just like flash, boom, flash, boom, all around us. And so we were hunkered down next to kind of a boulder because you're above tree line and you're in a basin. So the only way to get out was to climb like back on the course to go like 500 feet up over a saddle that's super exposed. Or it's to stay where we were in kind of like a jumble of rocks. And so we just opted to stay there. But then you're freezing.

• 21:38Cameron Hanes?

  Mm hmm.

• 21:38Speaker 01

  Right? So like

• 21:39Cameron Hanes?

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• 22:20Cameron Hanes?

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• 23:01Cameron Hanes?

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• 23:35Speaker 01

  It was probably in the 40s.

• 23:36Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah, so 40 and raining.

• 23:37Speaker 01

  And pouring.

• 23:38Cameron Hanes?

  Is about as miserable as it can get.

• 23:41Speaker 01

  Oh dude.

• 23:42Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 23:42Speaker 01

  And it was like, and so then we, you know, then Diana Finkel caught up to us, a Kaboragi from Japan, and we were all hunkered down together. And then we, Diana was from there. So she's like, hey, let's, let's, we can go up. Once it kind of started to move off the summit away from us, it was still lighting up the summit, but it wasn't in the basin anymore. And so we all like, she's like, hey, we can keep going up another, a little bit up next to this lake before you do the final probably 800 foot push to the summit. And it was still in a bay, like this kind of protected basin. So we, we went up a little more because we were all freezing and we were trying, we just wanted to move. And so we, we all went up there, stood for a while and we all standing in a group. And I mean, we're at like 100 KN, right? We were like 62 miles into this 100 mile race.

• 24:27Cameron Hanes?

  All hanging out together.

• 24:28Speaker 01

  In the San Juans in southwestern Colorado, right? So like, we're hanging out together and just talking, the race has stopped for us for like 75 minutes total. And so finally, we're like, I don't know how we came up with this number. But we said, okay, at seven seconds, we're going.

• 24:44Cameron Hanes?

  In between the, the lightning and thunder.

• 24:46Speaker 01

  The flash and the boom. And so it was like 1,001, 1,002 out loud. Everyone's counting.

• 24:51Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 24:51Speaker 01

  You know, and then finally we get to seven and we're like, let's go. And I was by myself. So I didn't have, I didn't have a pacer or anything. Everybody else had a pacer. So I'm by myself, I'm freezing. I get my poles out and I just take off. I leave them. And I'm like probably 80, 50, 80 meters in front of them as we go over the summit. And I go over the summit top and then you come off the top and there's like maybe a, a 20 yard like little switchback. And then a 40 yard kind of flat spot. And then it goes off a knife ridge to the north. I'm coming off the top and lightning strikes the point I'm supposed to go off of 40 meters in front of me. I mean, put me on the ground.

• 25:30Cameron Hanes?

  From, from what?

• 25:32Speaker 01

  Just, you don't even, I just remember going.

• 25:34Cameron Hanes?

  Didn't know what to do, just hit the deck.

• 25:35Speaker 01

  No, no, I, I just hit the deck automatically, didn't even think. I was just like, phew, on the ground, hands and knees.

• 25:40Cameron Hanes?

  Wow.

• 25:40Speaker 01

  And I don't even remember getting on my hands and knees. And then I was like, the first thing I thought, and I know this isn't right, but you know, you have stuff that's been in your brain from somewhere along the way. It's like, lightning never strikes in the same place twice.

• 25:52Cameron Hanes?

  Okay.

• 25:53Speaker 01

  I just ran straight for the point. And like ran as fast as I could and hucked off of it with my poles out, just trying to like, you know, I had them out like I'm skiing and it's a knife ridge, it's super slit, like scree and not, it's like a junky probably seventy, eighty, ninety meters down before it kind of goes to like some switchbacks and then, but you're above tree line for like two miles.

• 26:17Cameron Hanes?

  Wide open.

• 26:17Speaker 01

  Is wide open and it just struck there. So I'm trying to get as low as possible, as fast as possible. And, and I, and the whole time I'm thinking, I got kids, I got kids, I don't want to die, I don't want to die, you know, I'm praying and I, I get down to the bottom and like I get to the tundra at the bottom out of all the scree and I'm like shedding layers because now I'm sweating, you know, from adrenaline and everything else. Um, and, and from there I just kind of like keep hammering down to tree line and went on to finish the race and everything, but um, yeah, man, it was like this, the most like, so I have, you know, when we were talking about my hoops?

• 26:58Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 26:59Speaker 01

  So I have, I have glass hoops. So back then I had metal ones, like stainless steel.

• 27:04Cameron Hanes?

  We're talking about in his earrings.

• 27:06Speaker 01

  Yeah, earrings. We were talking about plugs earlier, so like.

• 27:09Cameron Hanes?

  I thought you're, you're pretty, what were we talking about? Punk, were you punk rock?

• 27:12Speaker 01

  Yeah, we were talking about punk.

• 27:13Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah, so I thought gauges would be.

• 27:15Speaker 01

  We need some gauges in there, right? So I was saying I had the biggest hoops you can get before you go to plugs. Because I've had him stretched multiple times.

• 27:22Cameron Hanes?

  Okay.

• 27:23Speaker 01

  Um, and so like I, I, after that experience, I remember thinking during that lightning storm that at the top, I was like, oh man, I got freaking stainless steel between my, on my ears. It's going to go right through my brain. You know, I'm like a weather vane.

• 27:38Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 27:39Speaker 01

  And so like after that experience, I came back to Bend, Oregon, at the time I was living in Bend and I, I went to a local piercing shop who had a custom glass maker, who made glass, custom blown glass stuff. And I asked for glass hoops.

• 27:58Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 27:59Speaker 01

  So these are black glass.

• 28:00Cameron Hanes?

  Gotcha.

• 28:00Speaker 01

  With a rubber thing on the back for safety. In case I'm ever in a lightning storm on top of a 14er again.

• 28:06Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah, there you go. You're set now.

• 28:07Speaker 01

  Yeah, I'm fine.

• 28:09Cameron Hanes?

  So when I hear that story and I see we got a filmmaker sitting over here, like, how, how do you capture? That's, that's what I want captured in a film. Those moments. Cause what we get in the films is aid station stuff, right?

• 28:24Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 28:25Cameron Hanes?

  But what happens, the epic stuff is on the course. That's where the challenge is. It's like, Dylan, when can we get this, this cool stuff on, in film?

• 28:34Speaker 01

  Yeah. He's gonna have to just, he's gonna have to be my pacer.

• 28:37Cameron Hanes?

  This is, or, or this is animation, I guess. Cause you tell a great story. As we talked about, there's art to being a storyteller. I'm there with you. I want to see it.

• 28:47Speaker 01

  Right, totally.

• 28:48Cameron Hanes?

  But yeah, it's a, God, what experiences though. But that's what I, the mountains, so unpredictable. Normal life is so, is pretty predictable, you know, in general.

• 28:58Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 28:58Cameron Hanes?

  You know, in the comforts of whatever civilization. The mountains, that's what, that's the allure is it's wild. We don't know what the is going to happen.

• 29:07Speaker 01

  No.

• 29:08Cameron Hanes?

  That's the beauty of it. That's what, that's what makes my soul feel alive. I got, I look at the mountains and I'm like, what is going on up there? I want to be there.

• 29:18Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 29:19Cameron Hanes?

  You know, that's the draw and uh,

• 29:22Cameron Hanes?

  I don't know, those special, like that was probably scary, but also uh, uh, an experience you'll never forget.

• 29:29Speaker 01

  It was scary, but yeah, exactly. And, and, and invigorating that I survived it. You know, and you, and you appreciate life a little more and you look at your family and like, I'm glad I'm still here.

• 29:38Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah, no, it's a, I'm sure your wife, you know, questions, hearing stories like that, what you're doing out there, but yeah, it's, it's part of the lifestyle.

• 29:47Speaker 01

  I think it's more than when I've had mountain lion encounters was she doesn't like.

• 29:50Cameron Hanes?

  I heard, you know, I heard, I was listening to you on, is it Free Outside, right? Jeff Garmeyer?

• 29:55Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 29:56Cameron Hanes?

  Is it free? Yeah. And you were talking about, um, like three different mountain lion encounters.

• 30:00Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 30:01Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah, I heard you telling that story.

• 30:02Speaker 01

  I've had multiples. I've had really close, I had a really close encounter, like, you know, probably 20 meters.

• 30:08Cameron Hanes?

  Wow.

• 30:09Speaker 01

  At, at night, you know, it was, it was pretty intense.

• 30:12Cameron Hanes?

  That's intense. Yeah. Um, well, tell me like, okay, so of all the races, tell me about what's the, like, I, I think Jeff asked you, what did he ask you? Something about, oh, your best race. So I think that was probably performance related. But tell me about a time when you were like running with somebody and you guys were just working together so well and a competitor, but you're having so much fun doing what we love to do, running in the mountains. Do you remember a race like that? Or is that more of a training day?

• 30:42Speaker 01

  I mean, mostly training days because I'm competing, but, but in something like, say, Cogadona, right? Like for a 250 mile race.

• 30:51Speaker 01

  You're not racing at the beginning. You shouldn't be.

• 30:53Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 30:53Speaker 01

  So like, um, you know, Versti and I, that's how we first like really started connecting is that in the race.

• 31:03Cameron Hanes?

  Okay.

• 31:03Speaker 01

  Um, and now we're good friends, you know, but like that day, we ended up running next to each other for like the first probably 70 miles, like within 40 meters of each other. We kept like, you know, at first it was just us kind of trading. And like kind of talk in a second, saying hi to each other. But then eventually, once we were on the Senator Highway after Crown King, we were just running together.

• 31:27Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 31:27Speaker 01

  On that dirt road. And we're just like chatting about being dads and because he had a new, you know, he had a baby and or a toddler at the time. And I have three kids. And so we just talked about being dads, you know, for like, a long time.

• 31:41Cameron Hanes?

  That's great.

• 31:42Speaker 01

  Which was really cool, you know, because you're running at conversational pace.

• 31:45Cameron Hanes?

  Oh, yeah. That's the best thing about ultras.

• 31:48Speaker 01

  Yeah, ultras is conversational pace. It's so social.

• 31:50Cameron Hanes?

  It is. Yeah. No, that's a, I mean, and when you're, and we've talked about it before, mostly I've had this in training and in hunting. But when you share something so hard, and you're both going through it, it does make that connection with that person seem

• 32:08Cameron Hanes?

  a stronger, real. It's like a shared suffering. We've, people have talked about this, but I know the big days I've done with anybody, either my buddy Roy, or training with Courtney, or my brother. It's like, you can't simulate that connection, other than sharing experiences like that.

• 32:26Speaker 01

  Well, I think sharing miles in general, it's like breaking bread together, right? It's like having dinner together. You let your guard down. As soon as you're warmed up, right? It might be awkward in the first 20 minutes, right? That's like anybody meeting someone for the first time. But like even people you have never met before, you know, you go run with them for even an hour.

• 32:45Cameron Hanes?

  Mm hmm.

• 32:46Speaker 01

  And by the end, you're like, chit chatting like you'd known each other forever.

• 32:50Cameron Hanes?

  Forever. Yeah. Yeah.

• 32:52Speaker 01

  That's a. I mean, today's run was a good example, right?

• 32:55Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah. So tell me about how did, how did today go versus what you were expecting? Because we did the lift run shoot experience. As I said, it's a huge honor to have you here.

• 33:04Speaker 01

  It's an honor for me to do lift run shoot.

• 33:06Cameron Hanes?

  Well, I, so this is what I do. I love sharing my life with people I respect and people who I'm like, I hope this person gets it, you know, just gets like, this, just this love for training, for pushing, for trying to grow. And some people get it, some people don't. Most of the people I have here, they, we all get it. But tell me what it's been like and what you've thought of the experience so far.

• 33:33Speaker 01

  Well, what, I mean, coming up this morning, I was like, I'm a little nervous because I don't know what, I don't know the agenda.

• 33:41Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 33:41Speaker 01

  We were talking about this at breakfast, we like, after we ran, it's like, I'm, I'm a tactical person.

• 33:49Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 33:49Speaker 01

  I, I need to have a plan.

• 33:50Cameron Hanes?

  Details.

• 33:51Speaker 01

  Like you should see my spreadsheets for Coca-Cola.

• 33:54Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 33:54Speaker 01

  I'm in.

• 33:55Cameron Hanes?

  And I didn't really even say anything. I just said, hey, here's my address.

• 33:58Speaker 01

  Yeah, address, show up. So that's why I was like, I don't know what we're gonna do. I don't know what we're doing first. I mean, he does say lift, run, shoot. So maybe we're lifting first.

• 34:07Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 34:08Speaker 01

  You know, so like, I was kinda ready for anything. But one of the cool things is that that's kind of a cool way to do it because then it's like, you know how, how, when we don't expect, like when we have, when we're not sure about something, that little slot, like even if it's in the background, that little level of anxiety or, or stress that might come along with it. It's like, it's actually good for you.

• 34:35Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 34:35Speaker 01

  For you to have to face that because you're actually building new neural pathways.

• 34:39Cameron Hanes?

  Exactly.

• 34:40Speaker 01

  Right? So like, it forces you to like, just roll with it, which ultras do. You're, you're never, never, nothing's ever gonna go according to the spreadsheet.

• 34:48Cameron Hanes?

  No.

• 34:49Speaker 01

  Right? Or the splits that you have planned. You have to have contingency plans.

• 34:54Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 34:55Speaker 01

  You know, A goal, B goal, C goal.

• 34:57Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah. No, it's a, and you were, today, I didn't even really know what I was gonna do. I got up this morning and I'm just like, so I'm asking Truitt, I'm like, so what, what do you gotta do today? So I'm trying to time where we could start and do this. I didn't really have a plan. I didn't even tell James, who has to film all this, right? That we're doing the whole lifter and shoot. He thought we were just doing a podcast. So my communication with you wasn't just me and you. It's like, I never talked to anybody. So I was just kinda spitballing this morning. And so my plan was we'll go to Blanton Heights, we'll hit Spencer's, we'll run down. Truitt was gonna be doing, I think, 10 or 12 400s on the track.

• 35:35Speaker 01

  And we had to call an audible. James, pick us up. We're not gonna make it to Truitt in time. He's on his eighth repeat.

• 35:41Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah, we were a little behind, so James came and tracked us down. We went to the track. But yeah, it was just, I don't think it could've went, in my mind, I don't know what anybody else thinks. It couldn't have went any better. This was like the perfect day for me.

• 35:54Speaker 01

  It was one, and you guys made me like, like drop me on the, on the 400 repeat.

• 35:58Cameron Hanes?

  Those things hurt, dude.

• 35:59Speaker 01

  Yeah, they do.

• 36:00Cameron Hanes?

  Those frickin' sucks.

• 36:02Speaker 01

  I used to be able to run fast, man, on the track when I was in high school.

• 36:05Cameron Hanes?

  It was, but.

• 36:07Speaker 01

  It was good. It was humbling to be like, man, I haven't. Well, yeah, he ran. What do you run a?

• 36:12Cameron Hanes?

  Seventy. Yeah.

• 36:13Speaker 01

  Seventy.

• 36:13Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 36:14Speaker 01

  A seventy second quarter.

• 36:15Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah, so it's.

• 36:16Speaker 01

  Yeah, I can't run that anymore. I can't run that anymore.

• 36:18Cameron Hanes?

  It's a four forty pace can hurt.

• 36:22Speaker 01

  It hurts like, yeah, especially in trail shoes.

• 36:25Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 36:25Speaker 01

  Not like super light racing flats.

• 36:27Cameron Hanes?

  I I trade. I traded.

• 36:29Speaker 01

  Yeah, you had light shoes where you left me. I was like, dang it, and he's got light shoes on.

• 36:34Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah, it was a.

• 36:35Speaker 01

  I was making excuses in my head.

• 36:36Cameron Hanes?

  One thing I did notice, and you know, we talked about, you know, we've talked a lot about people like to criticize or shit on other people's dreams. But one thing I thought today, and Truitt hasn't done a lot of track workouts.

• 36:49Speaker 01

  His second track workout, actually, to be accurate.

• 36:51Cameron Hanes?

  He looked, it looked pretty easy for him to run that seventy.

• 36:55Speaker 01

  Smooth. And he threw an extra. He was supposed to do twelve, and he ended up throwing it a couple more.

• 37:00Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah, I mean, but it looked not hard for him.

• 37:03Speaker 01

  No, he was looking really smooth.

• 37:05Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah, so it was a, that was pretty interesting. But, uh, so that was great. It was fun. I'm glad you got to meet in Truitt, just because, you know, I've looked up to you for so long. And so it's it's nice that you got to meet my son. And then we went, had a the O P H. How was that breakfast?

• 37:20Speaker 01

  Oh, that's solid, you know? I mean, come on, man. Clarified butter? They cook in clarified butter? Like, who does that anymore? Not very many restaurants.

• 37:30Cameron Hanes?

  No, lots of good food, lots of good pre-mem- memorabilia. I can't talk today. Did you guys drive by Hayward?

• 37:39Speaker 01

  Yeah, we did.

• 37:40Cameron Hanes?

  Okay.

• 37:40Speaker 01

  So, oh, I had been there.

• 37:42Cameron Hanes?

  Oh, you had?

• 37:42Speaker 01

  Yeah, so that, the new stadium, I, it was, it was there for the trials in twelve, two thousand twelve.

• 37:48Cameron Hanes?

  Oh, was it?

• 37:49Speaker 01

  So like, yeah, the owner of Foot Zone and Ben, T Catfield, and I, and his son Sam and my son Ben are both really close in age. And we came over and watched Max King, uh, run the steeplechase in the trials.

• 38:02Cameron Hanes?

  Right, okay. And that was at the new stadium.

• 38:03Speaker 01

  Yeah, and he surged to sixth.

• 38:05Cameron Hanes?

  Oh, man.

• 38:06Speaker 01

  In that race. And he done, this is a cool thing about. Trail and mountain running.

• 38:10Cameron Hanes?

  Mm hmm.

• 38:11Speaker 01

  He had done, he hadn't done one track, he hadn't done any track workouts. He showed up on just vert training and mountain run training.

• 38:18Cameron Hanes?

  Whoa.

• 38:19Speaker 01

  Cause that's when he was like doing, when he was doing like the shorter mountain, like uh, the Xterra stuff.

• 38:24Cameron Hanes?

  Right, yeah.

• 38:25Speaker 01

  Right, it was just running Xterra, not the bike stuff, but when the Xterra was doing kinda, that pre to like the current golden trail series stuff.

• 38:32Cameron Hanes?

  Right.

• 38:33Speaker 01

  It was kind of some, there's multiple organizations trying to get shorter, shorter mountain running going.

• 38:38Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 38:39Speaker 01

  In the US.

• 38:40Cameron Hanes?

  And he got sixth?

• 38:41Speaker 01

  He got, he surged to sixth.

• 38:43Cameron Hanes?

  God, so I wonder how far back from third was, from making the team, do you remember?

• 38:47Speaker 01

  I can't remember how close.

• 38:49Cameron Hanes?

  Hmm.

• 38:49Speaker 01

  But we were like, what, he's making, he's like making a move like last three laps.

• 38:53Cameron Hanes?

  That's a performance, dude. I love watching track meets there.

• 38:57Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 38:57Cameron Hanes?

  I don't love running on the track, but I love watching track.

• 39:00Speaker 01

  Yeah, me too.

• 39:01Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah, and Max, did you train with him when you lived in Bend?

• 39:04Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah.

• 39:05Cameron Hanes?

  He's a stud, isn't he?

• 39:06Speaker 01

  We tra- we trained a lot together in the off season, cause once we all got into our seasons, we were at different like peaks and tapers and.

• 39:14Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 39:14Speaker 01

  You know, but we would hook up and, and he also like, we, we had an ongoing for 12 years on Wednesday noon run out of foot zone in Bend for 12 years, like, it was like a staple social run.

• 39:28Cameron Hanes?

  Hmm.

• 39:29Speaker 01

  Um, and it was fun, it was fun because all the faster guys in town, like some of the ex-Nordics, like elite Nordic skiers would show up and we'd all show up and it would be social till we hit the river trail.

• 39:39Cameron Hanes?

  Hmm.

• 39:39Speaker 01

  And there was a spot where it splintered and whoever felt saucy that day.

• 39:44Cameron Hanes?

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• 40:29Cameron Hanes?

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• 41:11Cameron Hanes?

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• 41:25Speaker 01

  Well, we'd only do the trail section. So it'd be like a, it'd be like a mile and a half section of like hammering on the trail.

• 41:31Cameron Hanes?

  So the last mile and a half?

• 41:33Speaker 01

  And we'd all come back together in the park. Cause half the trail, it was like a seven mile loop from the shop. And you go down through like Drake Park from downtown and you follow the river trail through the old mill. And then when you hit the river trail south, that loop part of the river, river trail, there's one hill. You get into the river trail, maybe a half a mile, and there's a really steep hill. And that's where it starts to splinter.

• 41:53Cameron Hanes?

  Okay.

• 41:53Speaker 01

  Cause someone would feel saucy on the climb.

• 41:55Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 41:55Speaker 01

  And then the next thing you know, everyone's throwing down and it's splintered. And then we'd come back together in the park at the old mill and, and we'd kind of all jog slow and let everybody catch.

• 42:06Cameron Hanes?

  Recover.

• 42:06Speaker 01

  Yeah. And we'd all catch back up and then socialize all the way back. So it was always really fun because someone always wanted to throw down.

• 42:12Cameron Hanes?

  I bet that was fast. I mean, how fast did you guys run if somebody's feeling good?

• 42:16Speaker 01

  We were running like 545 pace on the trail. Like we were like, on your left, on your left, you know, people.

• 42:21Cameron Hanes?

  Passing people.

• 42:22Speaker 01

  Yeah, totally. It's just wide enough though. In most places, it was pretty good.

• 42:26Cameron Hanes?

  545 on a trail, passing people, walking, it feels like you're flying.

• 42:30Speaker 01

  Yeah, exactly.

• 42:32Cameron Hanes?

  That's so fun.

• 42:32Speaker 01

  Yeah, it was fun.

• 42:33Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah, I bet. I mean, but you guys had some legendary runners back then, you know, in that.

• 42:38Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 42:38Cameron Hanes?

  Part of the country.

• 42:39Speaker 01

  Yeah, Ian Sharman was there.

• 42:41Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah. Ian, so he does Eugene Marathon now, right?

• 42:46Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah. He's been doing a lot of marathons lately and kind of not this many ultras.

• 42:50Cameron Hanes?

  He came over for, uh, we had Elk Chili and he came over with, uh, yeah, he came over here with, uh, cause I think he knows, he coached Alexi.

• 43:00Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah, yeah.

• 43:00Cameron Hanes?

  Maybe the Olympics or something, something like that. But yeah, so he came over, we had Elk Chili, but he's a super nice guy.

• 43:07Speaker 01

  Yeah, super nice guy.

• 43:08Cameron Hanes?

  What a nice guy, but yeah.

• 43:09Speaker 01

  He's actually the one responsible for me like switching my career from graphic design to coaching. Like he's the one that put, he's the one that put the idea in my head.

• 43:18Cameron Hanes?

  Okay.

• 43:19Speaker 01

  Like he was moving back to, he had moved down to the Bay Area, his wife had got a job and then he was moving back. And he ended up being, we ended up being neighbors and again, the same neighborhood when he moved back. But when he came back, he had, we would always run together and he, cause he came to that noon run. And he, he would, uh, uh, we, we met at a pub for some pints and, um.

• 43:42Cameron Hanes?

  He's a good runner. I mean.

• 43:44Speaker 01

  He can drink a lot of pints.

• 43:45Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 43:46Speaker 01

  He's Brit.

• 43:47Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah, yeah. He, uh, he seems very proper, but.

• 43:50Speaker 01

  Yeah, but he can drink some pints, man. And he won't even slur his words. Watch out.

• 43:56Cameron Hanes?

  Well, that's opposite of me then when I drink. Um, yeah. So, uh, and who else was there? So.

• 44:03Speaker 01

  Um, let's see, uh.

• 44:05Cameron Hanes?

  You said Rod, Rod.

• 44:06Speaker 01

  Yeah, Rod Bean at the time was running and racing and sponsored at the time. Um, we had a whole nother little contingent of like, um, Exe Oregon Nordic guys that were there that were runners in the off season, you know, in the summer. So they were always like around training, you know, doing a lot of run training. So a lot of fast dudes in that, especially in that sub two hour, sub two hour race kind of zone, like a half marathon, half marathon trail race or something. They, they'd throw down in those kinds of, yeah, they're fast.

• 44:35Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 44:36Speaker 01

  Yeah, anyway.

• 44:36Cameron Hanes?

  I was just gonna say, um, so during that time, tell me when, like, how did sponsorship come in at that time? Like, when did you?

• 44:45Speaker 01

  I got sponsored in oh three.

• 44:46Cameron Hanes?

  Oh, three.

• 44:47Speaker 01

  Was the, like, back then it was like. Couple free pairs of shoes and a jersey, you know.

• 44:53Cameron Hanes?

  But it meant a lot to be sponsored.

• 44:55Speaker 01

  Oh, back then, yeah. I mean, it was like a small cult sport.

• 44:57Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 44:58Speaker 01

  You know, it was the Montrell Patagonia team. So back then, the first two kind of major sponsors in ultra running was a little, little shop in Seattle. Montrell was started with, you know, at that time, maybe 20 employees. Patagonia was up and coming, but still a small, small business too. And they were growing. And the two of them teamed up. One, you know, Patagonia provided apparel and Montrell provided shoes. And then, um, so I got on that team. I was on like the, the JV team, you know, the C team or something. You know, Scott Jurick and like Carl Meltzer were like on the A team, you know?

• 45:34Cameron Hanes?

  Gotcha.

• 45:34Speaker 01

  Um, cause that's when Jurick was winning Western States and Carl was like winning like 600s a year back then. Um, and then all of a sudden in oh, oh, end of oh, five Columbia bought out, bought Montrell. And so then that was a conflict of interest, obviously with Patagonia because they both make soft apparel. So, um, Rod Bean came to my, I had an office downtown. Ben is a graphic designer. I had my own business and he came in and he, he had a, he had a retail store downtown and he like, we always meet for coffee and stuff and he pops over to my studio and was like, dude, did you just hear the buyout? And I was like, I don't care about Montrell shoes, but I do care about Patagonia.

• 46:16Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 46:16Speaker 01

  Like I love their gear.

• 46:17Cameron Hanes?

  Right.

• 46:18Speaker 01

  So like we, we approached them and we, we, we, they were like, yeah, we'll sponsor, still sponsor a team. And, um, you know, that's, that was the beginning of my buddy George, like managing the team.

• 46:33Speaker 01

  We didn't have contact with him directly yet. You know, we were gonna, we were destined to be friends later, but.

• 46:38Cameron Hanes?

  What was his role at that time?

• 46:39Speaker 01

  He was kind of managing the team, but we had a different team manager at the very beginning.

• 46:44Cameron Hanes?

  Okay.

• 46:44Speaker 01

  Um, but then eventually he became the team manager and that's when it really took off. You know, that's when like, we actually started getting paid around that.

• 46:52Cameron Hanes?

  How did it take off? Like?

• 46:54Speaker 01

  Well, with that, the team, we, we started this grassroots ultra running team, Patagonia ultra running team. It was just a, a North American team. Um, I think we might've had one, one athlete in Japan. Um, and then. If I'm remembering right, I mean, it's been a long time.

• 47:11Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 47:11Speaker 01

  You know, this is like oh, six, oh, seven, oh, eight.

• 47:14Cameron Hanes?

  How do you get, how does it grow like back then, like before social, like, so were you guys just?

• 47:20Speaker 01

  Blogs.

• 47:21Cameron Hanes?

  Showing up to races, kind of putting on a little bit of a show, getting some buzz and then that just keeps growing?

• 47:28Speaker 01

  Yeah, and I had a, I had a pretty good blog following. I mean, that's kind of how the Bronco Billy thing had, took off.

• 47:34Cameron Hanes?

  Okay.

• 47:35Speaker 01

  Cause I was like, it started as me being, you know, graphic designer and branding and marketing and, and doing logos and all that kind of stuff. And so,

• 47:44Speaker 01

  in about oh, four, I want to say, I started, um, uh, I started a blog and I was gonna, I was like, man, I was Jeff Browning.com wasn't available and I was, and you know, being a branding person, I was like, oh, man, I, I need a, I need a URL.

• 48:00Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 48:01Speaker 01

  Some sort.

• 48:01Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 48:01Speaker 01

  And so I was looking for like, I was like, well, I could try Bronco Billy, cause I had a buddy that gave me that nickname and that I trained with and, um, and I was like, I do that. And then I was like, I couldn't find Bronco Billy.com. And I was like, well, I need an action word. And it can't be run, because what if I get injured? And I can only ride my mountain bike, you know, so it's gotta be, you know, so action words, I, that's where GoBroncoBilly.com came from. And, and then when social came, I was in marketing and tech, so I immediately got, you know, GoBroncoBilly handle for Instagram.

• 48:34Cameron Hanes?

  Right.

• 48:34Speaker 01

  Everything, Facebook and everything else.

• 48:36Cameron Hanes?

  Okay.

• 48:36Speaker 01

  So that's kind of how it started as this blog for my family in the Midwest. I was doing race reports.

• 48:42Cameron Hanes?

  Oh, that's.

• 48:43Speaker 01

  So I would run like, like when I won Big Horn was my first hundred mile win in oh, five.

• 48:47Cameron Hanes?

  Okay.

• 48:47Speaker 01

  So I would, I would like, put, piece together photos and like, and I would write a blog post, race report. And I would rate, it was kind of a, it was more to like entertain my family and, and keep them like in, it was like an article.

• 49:02Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 49:03Speaker 01

  Right, on the race and about what, how it went down and everything from my perspective.

• 49:08Cameron Hanes?

  Mm hmm.

• 49:09Speaker 01

  And, um, and that's when I started to kind of hone.

• 49:14Speaker 01

  Like Bronco Billy being like an alter ego.

• 49:17Cameron Hanes?

  Oh, okay.

• 49:18Speaker 01

  It was more of a joke at first.

• 49:19Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 49:20Speaker 01

  But it actually is like solid like

• 49:22Cameron Hanes?

  No, it's great.

• 49:23Speaker 01

  neuroscience, right?

• 49:24Cameron Hanes?

  It's great, yeah.

• 49:24Speaker 01

  Right? He's your alter ego and you don't let him out of the stable.

• 49:27Cameron Hanes?

  You're Bronco Billy, you gotta go.

• 49:29Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah. And you don't let him out until halfway.

• 49:31Cameron Hanes?

  Right.

• 49:31Speaker 01

  Cause he wants to race.

• 49:32Cameron Hanes?

  Okay.

• 49:33Speaker 01

  He's in the like the stable like. He's like.

• 49:35Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 49:35Speaker 01

  Yeah, he's stomping, he's like.

• 49:37Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 49:40Speaker 01

  You know, he wants to race.

• 49:41Cameron Hanes?

  I love it.

• 49:42Speaker 01

  And so that I, I started doing that as a joke at first, but then in the races, I started using that visually. Like, okay, hold back, hold back now Bronco's out. Let's go.

• 49:52Cameron Hanes?

  Nice.

• 49:52Speaker 01

  You know, and um, and so it, blogs kind of took off. They were like the precursor to social media, right?

• 49:59Cameron Hanes?

  This is like Facebook was what, 2008?

• 50:02Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 50:02Cameron Hanes?

  Something like that?

• 50:03Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 50:03Cameron Hanes?

  So you had three years to get your storytelling.

• 50:06Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 50:06Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 50:07Speaker 01

  And I was just doing that and um, and then everyone started calling me Bronco. You know, like Rock Horton, Chrissy Mail, Joe Grant, you know, uh, Scott Jurick.

• 50:19Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 50:19Speaker 01

  The other guys were like, hey, you know, and then I'd be like racist and you just hear, go Bronco. You know?

• 50:25Cameron Hanes?

  Love it.

• 50:25Speaker 01

  Like some people didn't even know my real name.

• 50:27Cameron Hanes?

  Right, yeah.

• 50:28Speaker 01

  You know, some people would just be like, hey, man, aren't you Billy?

• 50:31Cameron Hanes?

  I get it.

• 50:32Speaker 01

  Yeah, I'm Jeff, hey, how you doing? But yeah, that's how it kind of grew and took on a life of its own.

• 50:38Cameron Hanes?

  Okay, so then, um, and then like where did your career go? So you did the blogs and social media came on. And then how was your, like your sponsors and all that? How did that grow with your success?

• 50:51Speaker 01

  Um, I, I mean, I, the Patagonia ultra running team became a, a contract position at Patagonia. So like, um, like an ambassador role. Which is like one of their contract athletes in trail, in their trail running.

• 51:04Cameron Hanes?

  Mm hmm.

• 51:05Speaker 01

  Sector, right? Because they have surfing and, and climbing and all that. So, um, it was kind of, you know, went into that role and, and then, um, I was in.

• 51:18Speaker 01

  Patagonia started to work on footwear. And I really wanted to like, I, I'm a designer and you know, like as a runner, you know, if you're a biker, your gear is like the bike.

• 51:29Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 51:29Speaker 01

  Right. Your key piece, right? If you're a hunter, you know, bow hunter, it's your bow.

• 51:33Cameron Hanes?

  Oh, yeah.

• 51:33Speaker 01

  Right. But like it runners, your shoes.

• 51:36Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 51:37Speaker 01

  And so I really loved footwear. I had worked at a specialty running store when I was young, like in college and I, I had helped Footzone and Bend brand and market and do all their marketing materials. And I was like, one of my good friends was the owner and I just really wanted to be in footwear and I got this opportunity where Patagonia started to work on footwear and they'd done casual footwear a little bit and they were dabbling in it and they were working like partnering Wolverine Worldwide in Michigan, which you know, owns like Merrill and a bunch of other brands. And, and so I started working on footwear and, and we designed a shoe and I was like the key person testing, working with the designer

• 52:16Speaker 01

  and the product line manager and, and coming up with a shoe that I wanted to race it. And that was in like 2012, 2013, we were developing it. It launched in 14 and at the end of 14, at mid 14, Patagonia decided, we don't want to be in footwear. And they pulled.

• 52:36Cameron Hanes?

  Oh.

• 52:37Speaker 01

  And that's when I went to Ultra and Ultra became like my new home for the next 11 years.

• 52:42Cameron Hanes?

  Okay.

• 52:43Speaker 01

  And so I was balancing between Patagonia, half Patagonia and half Ultra as my main sponsors. Then I had a few other sponsors, but those were my main two.

• 52:52Cameron Hanes?

  And Patagonia was outerwear or race?

• 52:55Speaker 01

  Yeah. It was like clothing and they weren't doing footwear.

• 52:57Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 52:57Speaker 01

  And Ultra was only doing footwear. So it was a good partnership between the two. And that's when I realized I was their test size too at Ultra. So I continued on in that role because they were small back then. I, I came on when they were four years old. And, and so I, it was a small, little tiny company and I was like really involved in like the direction of footwear. Like I was running in prototypes for years. I was running in prototypes at like Hard Rock and Western States. A year before those shoes came out.

• 53:26Cameron Hanes?

  Hmm.

• 53:26Speaker 01

  Cause I, we were like, you know, this was like, you know, if I was racing in 2016, I was racing in spring 17 shoes.

• 53:33Cameron Hanes?

  Mm hmm.

• 53:33Speaker 01

  Um, and we were fine tuning them, you know, I mean, I even raced in prototypes that were like hand put together where the sole started to come off.

• 53:40Cameron Hanes?

  Right.

• 53:41Speaker 01

  You know, in the middle of hard rock and had to switch, you know?

• 53:44Cameron Hanes?

  It's tough.

• 53:44Speaker 01

  Um, but like, that really like, got this like, passion for like footwear development and innovation.

• 53:51Cameron Hanes?

  Mm hmm.

• 53:52Speaker 01

  Like going and like, oh no, I, the, the creative process, like I was, at that point, I've been in graphic design and art direction forever.

• 54:00Cameron Hanes?

  Mm hmm.

• 54:00Speaker 01

  And I was kind of getting to that point in my career, you know, this would, would have been like, I'm in my 40s now.

• 54:07Cameron Hanes?

  Okay.

• 54:07Speaker 01

  And I'm just like, man, I, I don't want to do branding and design anymore.

• 54:11Cameron Hanes?

  Mm hmm.

• 54:12Speaker 01

  I, I really like to just be in footwear and like running.

• 54:15Cameron Hanes?

  Mm hmm.

• 54:15Speaker 01

  You know, and so, right around then is when I launched like 2016, launched a coaching business. And, and then it, within a year, it was full time.

• 54:23Cameron Hanes?

  Hmm.

• 54:24Speaker 01

  And then I continued to this role at, at Ultra, and I was really clicking with Ultra.

• 54:30Cameron Hanes?

  Mm hmm.

• 54:30Speaker 01

  And at the time, Patagonia was kind of shifting things there and I, and I just wasn't quite aligned where they were going. And, and I just was really wanted to be in the Ultra space and really focus on, on performance and running and shoes. And so that's when in 2020, I went full, I went over like as my primary sponsor to Ultra and, and kind of just retired from Patagonia.

• 54:56Cameron Hanes?

  Gotcha.

• 54:57Speaker 01

  And then that, you know, fast forward to, you know, this year, and that's where kind of the keen thing kind of started.

• 55:05Cameron Hanes?

  Did, uh, when you were so involved in like the Ultra footwear, how, how like receptive were they to like your feedback and your ideas? Cause sometimes I've done testing for some of these companies, like you have a, a good idea or a nice change and then it.

• 55:21Speaker 01

  It doesn't happen.

• 55:22Cameron Hanes?

  It doesn't happen and you're like, why are you even wasting my time with this? So how, how receptive were they to your ideas?

• 55:29Speaker 01

  Most of the time, really, really well.

• 55:30Cameron Hanes?

  Okay.

• 55:30Speaker 01

  I mean, there's some stuff that just can't happen in the production, and I learned a lot during that time.

• 55:35Cameron Hanes?

  Mm hmm.

• 55:35Speaker 01

  You know, like what can be done, what can't be done, where we are in the process, right? And, and that's where as, as I moved forward, I was like, I need a relationship where I'm like, at the, I want to like, kind of a, I want a place at the table. Before it goes to spending any money on a mold.

• 55:54Cameron Hanes?

  Right.

• 55:55Speaker 01

  Or the last.

• 55:56Cameron Hanes?

  They're kind of locked in.

• 55:57Speaker 01

  Cause then you're locked in. Once you do the mold.

• 55:59Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 55:59Speaker 01

  The mold, if anybody doesn't know, is like the, is like the, the midsole, outsole.

• 56:04Cameron Hanes?

  Mm hmm.

• 56:04Speaker 01

  Right? That becomes a metal mold that the shoe is then locked in. You can change densities and materials in it, right? The kind of rubber or the foam, but you can't change the shape of it.

• 56:18Cameron Hanes?

  Right.

• 56:19Speaker 01

  So you're locked into that design and the only thing you could really influence is the upper.

• 56:24Cameron Hanes?

  Mm hmm.

• 56:24Speaker 01

  The materials in the upper, that's it. So at that point I was just like, and, and it's very expensive. Once they release to the mold.

• 56:32Cameron Hanes?

  Right.

• 56:32Speaker 01

  Right? In footwear. So like, I wanted to be, you know, I'm a designer. I can envision things in either from, from like a blueprint and a 2D and I can also envision it in 3D. If now we have 3D printing, the tech is now great. They can, they can do that mold in a 3D print and you can look at it and, and, and put the upper on it and envision it, even though it's a piece of plastic.

• 56:55Cameron Hanes?

  Mm hmm.

• 56:55Speaker 01

  Right? But like, you can go, oh yeah, yeah. Oh no, that's not wide enough. Or, you know, that, that tread needs to be farther apart or, you know, the knobbies or whatever, you know, cause my focus is trail running.

• 57:07Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 57:07Speaker 01

  And, and so like that part of the, part of the process, I'm like, that stuff like gets me so like jazzed.

• 57:15Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah. I, I saw this designer just the other day at the Bow Rack and they're, they were designer for Nike forever. And so he had some new shoes in there. He's designing for another company now. And like, I'm looking at like, cause Speedland I'm involved with, but those knobbies on the bottom get too close or they're holding mud. Right? So they won't shed the mud. Too far apart, they're, they're not getting the grip you need. So there is a science to those knobbies on the bottom.

• 57:41Speaker 01

  Oh yeah, yeah, dude.

• 57:42Cameron Hanes?

  I mean, it's a big deal.

• 57:43Speaker 01

  Yeah. Otherwise they might clog.

• 57:45Cameron Hanes?

  Well, it's weight too. So more, more sole, heavier it is.

• 57:50Speaker 01

  Well, this is something we talk about all the time and I, what we, I think I said this to you today. What, if you can shed one ounce off shoe.

• 57:59Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 58:00Speaker 01

  At 170 steps a minute times 60 minutes, that's 638 pounds less you have to lift.

• 58:05Cameron Hanes?

  Right.

• 58:06Speaker 01

  Like, that's significant.

• 58:08Cameron Hanes?

  That shit adds up.

• 58:08Speaker 01

  Yeah, it does.

• 58:09Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah, so it's like, uh, there is a, there's a sweet science to designing like the ultimate shoe.

• 58:16Speaker 01

  Especially if you're trail.

• 58:18Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah, for a fact.

• 58:19Speaker 01

  It's very different from road.

• 58:21Cameron Hanes?

  How so? Like durability? Or what do you mean?

• 58:24Speaker 01

  Durability, but also like stability, because you think about like, in road running, you're just going forward.

• 58:30Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 58:30Speaker 01

  Right? So you just need return, especially with these new super foams, they just need to return forward. Cause you're never dynamically moving laterally. But in trail running.

• 58:40Cameron Hanes?

  Mm hmm.

• 58:40Speaker 01

  You could, your forward step could be off camber.

• 58:44Cameron Hanes?

  Yep.

• 58:44Speaker 01

  It could be on a slick surface.

• 58:46Cameron Hanes?

  Mm hmm.

• 58:46Speaker 01

  It could be on a very uneven rocky surface. It could be like off the side of a rock or a boulder.

• 58:53Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 58:54Speaker 01

  Right? I mean, think about the stair steps and the wet spots today.

• 58:57Cameron Hanes?

  Mm hmm.

• 58:58Speaker 01

  Just the rubber compound alone is, makes it stickier or slippery.

• 59:02Cameron Hanes?

  Right.

• 59:02Speaker 01

  Like skis.

• 59:03Cameron Hanes?

  People know, like, if you see a wet rock at an angle, there's certain shoes where you go with so much confidence. Cause you know it's gonna grip. And there's shoes where you're just like, now all of a sudden you're gotta like put your hand down or something. And it's like, it changes, it changes your, it changes everything. So that is, that, the grippiness of that rubber that they're using is a huge deal. How hard it is when it's cold, how soft it is if it's, when it's cold or warm, yeah, it's, it all matters.

• 59:31Speaker 01

  It does matter and, and it's, it's, I love, and then another one is just like little things like, you know, not, you know, not putting too, like the back of the shoe could have too many lugs on it compared to the front of the shoe. For example, right?

• 59:46Cameron Hanes?

  I don't, how, like, tell me.

• 59:48Speaker 01

  Meaning if you held that thing on your finger.

• 59:50Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 59:51Speaker 01

  And it was balancing.

• 59:51Cameron Hanes?

  Oh, right, okay.

• 59:52Speaker 01

  So then it makes it really heavy on the back end of the shoe.

• 59:55Cameron Hanes?

  Okay. I hadn't, I hadn't thought about that. Yeah, that's interesting.

• 59:59Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:00:00Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah, it's a well, and then also, yeah, I mean, there's the the narrow. Like I've looked at like the shoes I wear, they're super wide compared to sit. So these shoes, like the the trail shoes I have are about twice as wide.

• 1:00:13Speaker 01

  As the road shoes.

• 1:00:15Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah, and it's like because we need that, we need that stability and they're lower. So it's like, you can, they talk about stack height, but also I can feel where my foot is bedded in that shoe and how close, how far that is from the ground. No matter what the stack height says, I can tell if my foot is a little higher or lower in that bed. And it's, it's just, it feels different can um comparing different shoes and all that plays into how I feel running.

• 1:00:43Speaker 01

  Yeah, oh, yeah.

• 1:00:44Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 1:00:44Speaker 01

  You'll give you confidence or you're gonna be like, oh, man, I'm feeling sketchy.

• 1:00:47Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah, yeah, definitely. And um, um, so with the shoes, like, how, how hard was that to leave a long time sponsor? Did they make that decision for you? Or how does that work?

• 1:00:57Speaker 01

  No, I mean, um, Keen approached me and I, you know, considered it and talked about like what, what I, what I wanted as a, you know, I, I was like, I want to be in innovation and footwear development. Like, I want to be, you know, so to speak, a seat at the table.

• 1:01:17Cameron Hanes?

  Part of the process.

• 1:01:18Speaker 01

  Yeah, part of the process.

• 1:01:19Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah, have a say.

• 1:01:20Speaker 01

  Yeah, I always wanted to say early in the process and they were willing to kind of get to, to like, give me that. And

• 1:01:28Cameron Hanes?

  Was your relationship with George probably was a big part of that?

• 1:01:31Speaker 01

  Well, I mean, that's why, that's how the, I mean, they wouldn't have had that conversation if I didn't know George.

• 1:01:35Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 1:01:36Speaker 01

  You know, I mean, he, someone needed to know me really well and approach me on it. Because I wasn't, I mean, I wasn't looking to leave. I mean, I love, I love being at Ultra. I thought I would retire there, you know, as a, as a, as a sponsored athlete.

• 1:01:49Cameron Hanes?

  I feel like it's a relationship business, you know, I mean, we do the sponsors, but there's, it's more than a sponsorship.

• 1:01:54Speaker 01

  Heck, yeah, it is.

• 1:01:55Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 1:01:56Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's not just like, well, I mean, I think there's some people out there just like chasing a sponsorship money or a deal, but not me. Mine's all about, I mean, I hadn't changed sponsors in over a decade, you know, like I may have had a new few new partners come on because I use their product and, and we've talked and I'm like, I like your product. Can we figure something out?

• 1:02:15Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 1:02:16Speaker 01

  You know, but I've always like, it's always been a, a, a Both ways.

• 1:02:21Cameron Hanes?

  Right.

• 1:02:22Speaker 01

  You know, because I like their product. I don't want to support someone if I don't like what they do.

• 1:02:25Cameron Hanes?

  Oh, yeah, of course, of course. So how's it? Tell me about the Keen relationship. What are your, what's your thoughts on that? And where you're going?

• 1:02:33Speaker 01

  I mean, I, I'm so, I mean, I just got done. That's one of the reasons I'm in Oregon and I, you know, I was in Portland. I've been in Portland for two days with meetings at headquarters and I mean, I, I just like, I looked at George the other day. I was like, dude, this just confirmed I made the right decision.

• 1:02:52Cameron Hanes?

  Just spending time in the office.

• 1:02:53Speaker 01

  Yeah, just like how they're set up, the team they've assembled there, you know, they've been in outdoor for like 20 some years. And so like, they're already in it and, and everyone's, everyone's, there's a bunch of runners there already. And so it just makes sense that that's what they would move into, you know, and they have some cool, cool kind of aspects to their business too. Like they, one, I'm in on the, on the ground level. This team has just been assembled, right? In the last year. So it's like, it's all people I've known in the industry for a long time. I trust, I really respect.

• 1:03:31Cameron Hanes?

  And designers and?

• 1:03:33Speaker 01

  Yeah, from the, from the designers to the, to the project line manager, to the head of trail, like all of them. And I, I, I know that like, I have confidence in all their abilities and, and their skill sets. And I feel like they're set up for success and they're also dedicated to be here. Like, you know, they don't, they don't, they're not in it for like, where we've seen a few brands come in for a couple of years and then they're gone. Or they dabble in it and then they're gone.

• 1:04:03Cameron Hanes?

  There's like, we gotta do something in trail. It seems like it's getting pretty popular.

• 1:04:06Speaker 01

  Yeah, exactly.

• 1:04:07Cameron Hanes?

  Put out, put out a trail, something.

• 1:04:08Speaker 01

  What I love is they're starting in trail.

• 1:04:10Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 1:04:10Speaker 01

  They're starting in road.

• 1:04:12Cameron Hanes?

  Right.

• 1:04:12Speaker 01

  And that's where the business is. The business is big in trail, in road, right?

• 1:04:16Cameron Hanes?

  Oh, yeah.

• 1:04:16Speaker 01

  That's a majority of the road running, or the running business, but they're starting in trail where their roots are.

• 1:04:22Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah, that's awesome. I mean, because the marathon world is exploding and yeah, people, I think a brand would see that is all, look at all these customers, potential customers out there, whereas Ultra is a smaller crowd, but yeah, it's like, you want somebody, that, that's cool that they're starting there. And like, I hear that the team's good. I hear everything you're saying. What makes it a great trail running shoe in your opinion? I mean, to make the ultimate trail running shoe, I assume that's your envision and that's what you're talking about with Keen. What, what is that? What does that look like?

• 1:04:55Speaker 01

  For me?

• 1:04:55Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 1:04:57Speaker 01

  Well, I mean, why, light?

• 1:05:00Cameron Hanes?

  How, how light? What, how many ounces?

• 1:05:02Speaker 01

  I want it to be in the nines.

• 1:05:04Cameron Hanes?

  Okay.

• 1:05:05Speaker 01

  But I also want like sticky rubber. I want lugs.

• 1:05:08Cameron Hanes?

  Yep.

• 1:05:09Speaker 01

  Good lugs that shed mud, but also are going to be good on wet conditions, are going to be good in dry conditions.

• 1:05:18Speaker 01

  Good foam. I mean, the cool, there's so many foams out now, like the tech and foams in the last five years is amazing. Innovations that have happened there. So, you know, obviously a light, dynamic foam that gives you a lot of energy return. A fairly minimal upper, like not overbuilt. Um, I think that's important.

• 1:05:38Cameron Hanes?

  For weight, for sure.

• 1:05:38Speaker 01

  For weight and just, just for like, it needs to breathe, it needs to drain, you know, because trail running, we get, we might have to go through a river. You know, might have crossed creek, you know, I've crossed a few creeks in my day in races and.

• 1:05:52Cameron Hanes?

  I used to drill holes in my Under Armour shoes for that. Now I think, don't they have shoes that have hole like?

• 1:05:59Speaker 01

  Some do, yeah. So there's some designs. The only problem is, is it lets it in too.

• 1:06:03Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah, yeah, for sure.

• 1:06:04Speaker 01

  But you just want to be able to get it out.

• 1:06:06Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 1:06:06Speaker 01

  And there's innovations in materials now and it's just like, you know, a lot better materials. They're more durable than they used to be.

• 1:06:15Speaker 01

  You know, so for me, it's just, it's a light, wide base trail shoe that's not going to tip, not be feel tippy.

• 1:06:21Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 1:06:22Speaker 01

  You know, you're not rolling ankle.

• 1:06:24Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah, I had like, uh, Under Armour had fat tires for a while and those had like, it was kind of pretty, they were tall. And then the sides were kind of like this, very tippy.

• 1:06:34Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:06:34Cameron Hanes?

  I mean, so yeah, it's.

• 1:06:37Speaker 01

  Well, that's when you get a road running designer.

• 1:06:39Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 1:06:39Speaker 01

  Does, that's in the design department, designing a trail shoe.

• 1:06:43Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah, whole different world.

• 1:06:44Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:06:44Cameron Hanes?

  I get it. So, um, yeah, that sounds like a great shoe. What about color? What, do you have a preference on color?

• 1:06:50Speaker 01

  Oh, I don't care. Well, it depends on the race, right?

• 1:06:52Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 1:06:53Speaker 01

  So like something like Coca Dona, it's hot. You want to be in a lighter shoe.

• 1:06:56Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah, I can tell. Like if my shoe's dark, my, my foot is getting hot.

• 1:07:01Speaker 01

  No, the studies like can show a 10 to 15 degree difference in your foot.

• 1:07:04Cameron Hanes?

  Definitely.

• 1:07:05Speaker 01

  So if you have a dark shoe on a hot day, and especially if there's sun expo, direct sun exposure. So, you know, it just depends on, I mean, I, I love, I have black. I'm in a former 20 some years of an art director, graphic designer. Like we're all about black.

• 1:07:20Cameron Hanes?

  Punk rocker.

• 1:07:20Speaker 01

  Yeah, but more about just like the art director look, you know?

• 1:07:23Cameron Hanes?

  Okay, black is badass.

• 1:07:25Speaker 01

  You got your black jeans and your black shirt on and your black frame glasses.

• 1:07:28Cameron Hanes?

  You got Johnny Cash, Travis Barker.

• 1:07:30Speaker 01

  Exactly. You gotta be Johnny. You gotta have a Johnny Cash shoe. You always have to have a black version of the shoe.

• 1:07:36Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah, I, I like bright shit. Like, like, you know.

• 1:07:40Speaker 01

  I like those shorts, by the way. I dig those.

• 1:07:42Cameron Hanes?

  I like, I like bright, like little personality, but.

• 1:07:46Speaker 01

  Do you sell those keep hammering shorts?

• 1:07:48Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah, I sell them.

• 1:07:49Speaker 01

  I need to get those.

• 1:07:49Cameron Hanes?

  I'll hook you up. You don't have to buy anything. Um, yeah.

• 1:07:52Speaker 01

  So those are dope. That one especially.

• 1:07:55Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah, this is, this is.

• 1:07:56Speaker 01

  That's inspired by Coca Dona, right?

• 1:07:58Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah, it was. Yeah. Yeah, that was, uh, that was, that was fun down there. Um, okay. So that's cool. Um, what about? Are they doing any boa thing? Or what's your thoughts on boa versus laces? Do you have any thoughts on that?

• 1:08:11Speaker 01

  I don't like boa.

• 1:08:12Cameron Hanes?

  You don't like boa? How come?

• 1:08:14Speaker 01

  I just feel like it can, when it fails, if it fails.

• 1:08:17Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah, you're. I haven't had it happen, to be honest.

• 1:08:21Speaker 01

  I, I know a few people have had boas fail.

• 1:08:24Cameron Hanes?

  That's not great then.

• 1:08:25Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:08:25Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 1:08:26Speaker 01

  So that I, I, we, I mean, we've dabbled in boa as well when I was at Ultra. I just never was a big fan, but I love boa in certain circumstances. I love them in my like SPD shoes on a mountain bike. I love them in my ski stuff. Right? But, um.

• 1:08:42Speaker 01

  But from a running perspective, I like, I just like laces, man. If it ain't broke, don't fix it.

• 1:08:47Cameron Hanes?

  Right.

• 1:08:48Speaker 01

  And it's heavy.

• 1:08:49Cameron Hanes?

  Don't, you mean the boa compared to the laces?

• 1:08:51Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:08:52Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah, it is heavier and it's more expensive.

• 1:08:54Speaker 01

  Yeah, sorry, Speedland.

• 1:08:55Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah, anytime, like you start getting a Michelin or a Vibran sole, something, whatever's branded, whatever's, whatever has a copy or a trade, whatever.

• 1:09:06Speaker 01

  Trademark, yeah.

• 1:09:07Cameron Hanes?

  But, and then you add on boa on top of it, then all of a sudden the cost of that shoe.

• 1:09:11Speaker 01

  Yeah, that's.

• 1:09:11Cameron Hanes?

  You're paying.

• 1:09:12Speaker 01

  Yeah, the cost, the price point is gonna go up.

• 1:09:14Cameron Hanes?

  You're paying for that shit.

• 1:09:15Speaker 01

  You should, you are.

• 1:09:16Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah. Um, okay. Well, that's cool. Um, and you think, uh, Keen is, do they have a shoe out yet?

• 1:09:24Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:09:24Cameron Hanes?

  Okay.

• 1:09:25Speaker 01

  The Seek and the Rome, and there's another one coming out.

• 1:09:28Cameron Hanes?

  Have you raced in them yet?

• 1:09:30Speaker 01

  Um, I know, I've just been running and, and stuff right now. Yeah.

• 1:09:33Cameron Hanes?

  Okay.

• 1:09:33Speaker 01

  Yeah, and, and prototypes.

• 1:09:35Cameron Hanes?

  Gotcha. Well.

• 1:09:37Speaker 01

  I'll be racing in prototypes, probably.

• 1:09:39Cameron Hanes?

  Okay.

• 1:09:39Speaker 01

  Cause we're working on a shoe that I really want to influence.

• 1:09:43Cameron Hanes?

  Okay.

• 1:09:44Speaker 01

  You know?

• 1:09:45Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah, I love that.

• 1:09:46Speaker 01

  So we're working on prototypes of that right now.

• 1:09:48Cameron Hanes?

  How is like, so you talked about your philosophy on sponsorships. What, how do you see sponsorships nowadays in ultra compared to before? And what do you, where do you think it's going? I mean, being a pro ultra runner, can people make a living doing that now?

• 1:10:03Speaker 01

  The spear point.

• 1:10:05Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah, a couple of people?

• 1:10:06Speaker 01

  Yeah, a couple of people.

• 1:10:07Cameron Hanes?

  I mean, how is that sponsorship world look? Cause you've been involved in it for so long. How is it?

• 1:10:11Speaker 01

  I mean, a lot of times you're trying to piece together multiple sponsors to be able to make any kind of money.

• 1:10:16Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 1:10:17Speaker 01

  I mean, and, and obviously the spear point, the really good ones that are winning major races like Western States or UTMB or podiuming there. Um, they, they're gonna have, they're gonna be able to dictate more money in their contracts. And now we're having agents in the, on the scene as well.

• 1:10:34Cameron Hanes?

  What's your thoughts on that?

• 1:10:35Speaker 01

  I mean, I think, I think overall it's good for the sport because I mean, these, it takes a lot of time, man. I mean, I have, my wife and kids have sacrificed for me to be in this spot.

• 1:10:46Cameron Hanes?

  Hmm.

• 1:10:47Speaker 01

  You know?

• 1:10:48Cameron Hanes?

  Like, what, you mean?

• 1:10:49Speaker 01

  I mean, the time.

• 1:10:50Cameron Hanes?

  Training?

• 1:10:51Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:10:51Cameron Hanes?

  To be a pro runner?

• 1:10:52Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:10:52Cameron Hanes?

  Right.

• 1:10:53Speaker 01

  If you want to perform, especially in the last five years.

• 1:10:55Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 1:10:56Speaker 01

  Like, especially in my age.

• 1:10:57Cameron Hanes?

  Hmm.

• 1:10:57Speaker 01

  Like, you gotta put in the time and you gotta do everything. Like, we were talking about today.

• 1:11:01Cameron Hanes?

  The recovery.

• 1:11:01Speaker 01

  I gotta do mobility, I gotta do nutrition and, and, and food isn't cheap.

• 1:11:06Cameron Hanes?

  No.

• 1:11:06Speaker 01

  You know, my budget is expensive for a family of five.

• 1:11:10Cameron Hanes?

  I understand.

• 1:11:11Speaker 01

  To eat organic.

• 1:11:12Cameron Hanes?

  I understand.

• 1:11:12Speaker 01

  You know, and eat good red meat.

• 1:11:14Cameron Hanes?

  Hmm.

• 1:11:14Speaker 01

  And steak and, I mean, I get a half.

• 1:11:17Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah, but if they're not training that hard, they don't need to eat that much. You need that.

• 1:11:21Speaker 01

  I know, but I got two boys.

• 1:11:22Cameron Hanes?

  Oh, okay. Um, so, but what you're saying is, and would an agent take some work off your plate so you can train so you're not taking?

• 1:11:30Speaker 01

  Well, and they're gonna go negotiate.

• 1:11:32Cameron Hanes?

  You're not working deals and training?

• 1:11:34Speaker 01

  But you gotta be a pretty good, like, already kinda proven, I feel like, to go in that direction.

• 1:11:39Cameron Hanes?

  Hmm.

• 1:11:40Speaker 01

  Otherwise, you're just trying to get your foot in the door.

• 1:11:41Cameron Hanes?

  Hmm.

• 1:11:42Speaker 01

  And, and the other thing you need to do as an athlete, and this is a tip for all those young ones out there, like, it's not just about performance, it's like, what are you giving to that brand?

• 1:11:51Cameron Hanes?

  Right.

• 1:11:52Speaker 01

  Like, what are you providing?

• 1:11:53Cameron Hanes?

  Hmm.

• 1:11:53Speaker 01

  Besides, like, racing, because that doesn't last forever.

• 1:11:56Cameron Hanes?

  So what, like, what can, what could an athlete give?

• 1:11:59Speaker 01

  Well, like, for example, my, my passion was the footwear side, right? So, like, I, I followed that rabbit trail and learned about it.

• 1:12:07Cameron Hanes?

  Okay.

• 1:12:08Speaker 01

  And, like, leaned into that.

• 1:12:10Cameron Hanes?

  Hmm.

• 1:12:11Speaker 01

  And so I understand, like, like, I can talk to the, you know, the lingo and the verbiage, and I know the process, and I know what steps they have to go through, and I still am learning.

• 1:12:20Cameron Hanes?

  To just streamline what, getting from the athlete to producing a great shoe.

• 1:12:26Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:12:26Cameron Hanes?

  That, that process.

• 1:12:27Speaker 01

  Yeah, and understanding that it's two years out.

• 1:12:29Cameron Hanes?

  Right.

• 1:12:29Speaker 01

  Or more.

• 1:12:30Cameron Hanes?

  Right, I understand, okay. So, uh, but not every young athlete is gonna have that passion.

• 1:12:36Speaker 01

  Nope.

• 1:12:36Cameron Hanes?

  Or have that knowledge.

• 1:12:38Speaker 01

  But find your, what's your niche?

• 1:12:39Cameron Hanes?

  What can you offer?

• 1:12:40Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:12:40Cameron Hanes?

  The brand?

• 1:12:40Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:12:41Cameron Hanes?

  Okay.

• 1:12:41Speaker 01

  Yeah, and I think always, like, I tell my kids this all the time, you should always have a side hustle.

• 1:12:45Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 1:12:46Speaker 01

  Right? Don't just put all your eggs in one basket, because you can get injured tomorrow if you're an athlete.

• 1:12:51Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 1:12:51Speaker 01

  And you're out. And then what are you gonna do?

• 1:12:53Cameron Hanes?

  Right.

• 1:12:54Speaker 01

  So, if you really are passionate about running, well, well, find your niche in the running industry, whatever that is.

• 1:13:00Cameron Hanes?

  If somebody wanted to be a pro ultra runner? What's your tips? Like if they say, I love, I know these, there's kids around here like this young runner, his in-laws live down the street, Rodney Williams, he's really good, he trains all the time, he probably, I know he'd want to be sponsored because the races cost a lot.

• 1:13:21Speaker 01

  Yeah, they do.

• 1:13:22Cameron Hanes?

  And he's had some good success local here. He did Mammoth, he, he's won this frozen trail 50K over here before. So what tips would you have for somebody like that who loves what we do and wants to be a pro?

• 1:13:34Speaker 01

  Well, you have to, one, you just gotta start putting in the time, you know, and make it a lifestyle habit of training, learn about training. If you can't afford a coach, learn about training, right? Read books, watch whatever you can watch and figure out like how to train intelligently so you don't get injured because consistency is king, right? We need to, you know, you gotta just put the work in day in, day out, show up, right? And then you gotta start performing. If you want to get sponsored, you guys are performing.

• 1:14:07Cameron Hanes?

  Right.

• 1:14:07Speaker 01

  So you got, you can't just show up to the local 50K. You can learn at the local 50K.

• 1:14:12Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 1:14:13Speaker 01

  Right? And build confidence at the local 50K. But most people aren't going to fast track a sponsorship.

• 1:14:19Cameron Hanes?

  Right.

• 1:14:20Speaker 01

  You know, I mean.

• 1:14:22Cameron Hanes?

  It can be a grind.

• 1:14:23Speaker 01

  It can be a grind and you have to just be committed if that's really what you want to do. And you gotta go show up to some big races and perform like.

• 1:14:31Cameron Hanes?

  And show you, you're the, got what it takes.

• 1:14:34Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah. Against good competition.

• 1:14:36Cameron Hanes?

  So that's what's, that's what's challenging sometimes because I've seen runners do that. So I've talked about, I got Rachel Entrekin coming on. She showed up, she's won 20 some ultras in a row and wasn't sponsored.

• 1:14:50Speaker 01

  Well, she and I talked about this.

• 1:14:52Cameron Hanes?

  Okay. What, what'd you guys come up with?

• 1:14:53Speaker 01

  Well, she, she got an agent last, this last year.

• 1:14:56Cameron Hanes?

  Okay.

• 1:14:57Speaker 01

  So that's how she finally got sponsorship.

• 1:14:58Cameron Hanes?

  Oh.

• 1:14:59Speaker 01

  But she just wasn't getting into the, the sponsorship cycle, right? You have to be talking to these brands before the budget's decided for the next year. And that's September and October.

• 1:15:07Cameron Hanes?

  Hmm.

• 1:15:08Speaker 01

  So before their next year is, you know, starts, you gotta be like in there, like making contacts. Who do you need to talk? Sometimes it's just. Who you know in the industry and like getting in the in the right pile or in the right email. Right? And then you have to go like, do your research. You gotta work. Not just work on the trail, but you gotta go work.

• 1:15:31Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah, cuz you think. Some people might think that, hey, I'm winning. What else do I have to do?

• 1:15:36Speaker 01

  Yeah, and like there's some that a brand is just gonna show up and say, hey, we'll give you money.

• 1:15:39Cameron Hanes?

  Knock on the door and like, hey.

• 1:15:40Speaker 01

  It doesn't happen that way.

• 1:15:41Cameron Hanes?

  We got two big bags of money for you.

• 1:15:43Speaker 01

  So I told Rachel a while ago, before she got an agent, I just said, like, we were talking about sponsorship after she won Coca-Dona.

• 1:15:54Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah, second time cuz she's won the last two, I think.

• 1:15:56Speaker 01

  Yeah, and she, I was like, do you have a sponsor yet? And she's like, no. Like, what?

• 1:16:01Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah, that's what I thought.

• 1:16:03Speaker 01

  But she's like, you know, she's a busy PT. And so she just hadn't like got into that cycle.

• 1:16:09Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah, she's just working, training.

• 1:16:11Speaker 01

  Working and training, that's all she had time for.

• 1:16:13Cameron Hanes?

  When are you gonna hustle a sponsorship?

• 1:16:15Speaker 01

  Yeah, you gotta know when to do it. Like, one of the reasons I got sponsored in the first place was back in like, oh, 2002. So before the 2003, when I got, finally got on the Montreal Patagonia team, Sean Meisner, we were talking about him today.

• 1:16:31Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah, I love Sean. He gave me salt.

• 1:16:34Speaker 01

  The Colonel, that's my nickname for him.

• 1:16:36Cameron Hanes?

  I was like hurting pretty bad. Like, we'd come out of the canyon or like the first part of at Western. Super hot, like 50 mile, 55 or something like that.

• 1:16:48Speaker 01

  Yeah, some Michigan bluff.

• 1:16:49Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah, he gave me a couple of salt pills cuz I was, I was struggling and that, and I didn't, I don't even know if I knew anything about salt. But yeah, so I'm always, I'm always thankful for, for that. That was 2010, so it was a while ago.

• 1:17:02Speaker 01

  I mean, he's the one that told me how. He's like, you need, you need a resume with photos and like what you've done. And you're, and what you could do for them.

• 1:17:10Cameron Hanes?

  Right.

• 1:17:11Speaker 01

  And I was like, oh.

• 1:17:12Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 1:17:13Speaker 01

  And so I designed a one-page resume, right? With you want photos of yourself racing and what you look like in a headshot, you know? Or whatever.

• 1:17:22Cameron Hanes?

  I think your look helps. I mean, you have to, I mean, I think it it helps to have a look.

• 1:17:27Speaker 01

  Well, we talked about today, we need personalities.

• 1:17:29Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah, you gotta be marketable.

• 1:17:30Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:17:30Cameron Hanes?

  And so that's, I I like people, I like the personalities of these eccentric racers that have their own thing. It's awesome. I love it. Courtney's got her thing.

• 1:17:41Speaker 01

  Yeah, she's got her thing.

• 1:17:42Cameron Hanes?

  Everybody knows it. It's so sick, but.

• 1:17:44Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:17:45Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah, it's a, um, do you think that a woman or a man has an advantage over each other and going for sponsorships?

• 1:18:00Speaker 01

  I don't know. I I mean, I might be neutral on that one. I'm not sure.

• 1:18:04Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 1:18:06Speaker 01

  I think there's been a huge growth in on the women's side.

• 1:18:09Cameron Hanes?

  Mm hmm.

• 1:18:09Speaker 01

  Um, but we need, we need more growth there.

• 1:18:11Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 1:18:12Speaker 01

  You know?

• 1:18:12Cameron Hanes?

  Dylan brought up a point, I, maybe not Dylan, maybe somebody else told me this. We don't have to like make make you whatever, but about women filmmakers, like to tell a great story on a woman ultra runner, would a woman filmmaker offer something different than than a male?

• 1:18:32Speaker 01

  Perhaps, yeah.

• 1:18:32Cameron Hanes?

  I never thought about that at all.

• 1:18:34Speaker 01

  That's actually a really good point.

• 1:18:35Cameron Hanes?

  I don't, oh, yeah, there was a, who's that? So Courtney had one, I think called The Source, maybe? Wasn't that a woman filmmaker who made that? Yeah, yeah. So I mean, there's some, there, I just never had thought about it. And maybe that's why, is that why that film was so successful? Cause it's about Courtney, made by a woman film. I don't know. I never thought about it before, so I just, I just figured it out.

• 1:19:02Speaker 01

  Well, I think it would, I think that that a woman is definitely going to bring a different perspective than a man.

• 1:19:07Cameron Hanes?

  Mm hmm.

• 1:19:08Speaker 01

  And that's, we, and we need, we need like all those voices in the sport.

• 1:19:13Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 1:19:13Speaker 01

  Read all the storytelling.

• 1:19:15Cameron Hanes?

  And this is like, I am the, this far from PC as anybody can get. But I wonder if, so if I think about society nowadays and I think about would a man filmmaker have more?

• 1:19:32Cameron Hanes?

  Freedom to take chances or feel more freedom to take chances as opposed to a woman filmmaker? I wonder, you know, because being a man and woman is different. I just don't, the world perceives your work differently for, I'm not saying it's right or wrong. I'm just saying sometimes that shit happens. So would a man who's had success be like, I want to tell the story this way and I don't care what you think. Where would a woman not have that same mind, but you all mindset? You know what I mean? So to me, a good film, the filmmaker has to feel free to tell their story. Yeah.

• 1:20:11Cameron Hanes?

  And I wonder if this unspoken, I don't know what, I just wonder if that impacts at all. In certain circumstances, I'm sure it does. Yeah, I don't know. I don't really have, I don't really have an answer or even, I never even thought of this before today, but yeah, I just wanted to get. I like, you're just free flowing, dude. Just all I ever do, I'm just like, I wonder. What I'm impressed by is you don't even have any notes. No, I, well, and that can get me in trouble because I thought like, cause I've been on Rogan quote a few times. He never have no, has notes. So I'm like, I'm going to do it like Joe. I'm not Joe, he's 10 times smarter than me and is such a great conversationalist. So. Dude, that, that dude can pull some stuff. Oh my God, his memory.

• 1:20:56Cameron Hanes?

  He is so diverse in his like knowledge base. Yeah. Like much respect there. He's, it's pretty cool. About so much. I love it because he could just pull stuff out and you're just like, where did he get that? It's, it's about any topic almost. Yeah, exactly. He can talk to almost any topic. It's pretty cool. Yeah, it's a, I'm going to have a little more coffee, but yeah, I. I'll take a little more too. Okay. Yeah, so the, the not having, sometimes I'm like, like here's, here's the problem I have is like, I get people in here. We train all day, talk, we've talked for hours today. And now what are we supposed to talk about now? So sometimes I'm like, I don't know what I'm going to talk about, but it always works. I don't know how, I don't know how it works. Tell me how much. Just give me like half.

• 1:21:41Cameron Hanes?

  Okay. But yeah, so it's a, it's definitely, I'm getting better coming up with stupid questions, I guess. Hope you didn't want cream because I just used it. No, it's all good. Anybody else wanting coffee? You good, you good?

• 1:21:57Cameron Hanes?

  Okay, um, yeah, so I just, I just, you know, whatever. I kinda like having, like, once I have, here's, here's the difference between me and Joe. Joe can sit down with you, never having met you, and have, somehow have amazing questions. I do better when I spend time with people and have like a little connection.

• 1:22:17Speaker 01

  I like the pre-interview that we did, by doing all the stuff we did today, right? Then there's like, there's already a relation, slight relationship there. I like it.

• 1:22:26Cameron Hanes?

  It feels.

• 1:22:27Speaker 01

  We were talking about this yesterday, I think, like Dylan and I and George were talking about, like, the pre-interview idea?

• 1:22:36Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 1:22:36Speaker 01

  Where you hang out and pre-interview someone and then you do the interview?

• 1:22:39Cameron Hanes?

  For the, for a film?

• 1:22:41Speaker 01

  But just for in general.

• 1:22:42Cameron Hanes?

  Okay.

• 1:22:42Speaker 01

  To get to know someone, right? So it's not just cold turkey.

• 1:22:45Cameron Hanes?

  Mm-hmm.

• 1:22:46Speaker 01

  I, I, I think that's, that's one thing I was thinking about today. I'm like, I'm glad we hung out all day.

• 1:22:50Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 1:22:50Speaker 01

  Cause it makes the, it makes the conversation just way more laid back.

• 1:22:54Cameron Hanes?

  I do better. I just know that, you know, maybe Joe wouldn't need that because he's just so good at having good questions or good conversation, whatever it is.

• 1:23:02Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:23:03Cameron Hanes?

  I don't know. I don't think I am, but I just feel more comfortable doing it like this. And then, like even like, you know, training and just around, like, I mean, so what do you think of those crazy, like, movements we did? Tell me, tell me about that.

• 1:23:19Speaker 01

  Those are, those are sweet. Actually, I'm gonna use, I'm gonna use something. I wanna get, I need to get a full rack setup, because I want it, one, and you made me want, like, inspired me to wanna get back doing bench again, cause I used to.

• 1:23:33Cameron Hanes?

  You've been strong.

• 1:23:34Speaker 01

  Oh, well, I used to be able to be really strong, but I'm not anymore because I've been trying to keep this upper body from being overbuilt.

• 1:23:40Cameron Hanes?

  I understand.

• 1:23:41Speaker 01

  But one of the things I wanna do is I quit racing. I'm gonna err on the side of muscle.

• 1:23:47Cameron Hanes?

  When you quit racing?

• 1:23:48Speaker 01

  Yeah, when I quit racing hard, like, competing.

• 1:23:51Cameron Hanes?

  Well, we talked about for longevity, muscle.

• 1:23:53Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 1:23:54Cameron Hanes?

  Is a superpower.

• 1:23:55Speaker 01

  Well, and I wanna, I wanna build more, I would spend more time in the weight room and more focus in the weight room and less on volume of training as I. Quit competing.

• 1:24:06Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 1:24:06Speaker 01

  Because I'd rather be a little bit more of a muscle head because I love that. I love lifting weights and I love being able to like, when you guys were benching and going back and forth, I was like, man, I wish I'd been benching. Like, you know, I would, I want to bench more.

• 1:24:20Cameron Hanes?

  Bench is not going to help you win your thirty-three hundred, hundred though. I mean, so if you want that thirty-three, thirty-third win, yeah, stay off the bench.

• 1:24:29Speaker 01

  Yeah, pushups and pullups.

• 1:24:31Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah, but it's a, I love doing the weird, I'm always like looking at social media, looking for different training and stimulus and then I just like working the little shit for being my best in the mountains.

• 1:24:41Speaker 01

  Yeah, the balance stuff.

• 1:24:43Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 1:24:43Speaker 01

  Well, it's never a solid surface, man. It's always a weird, like, it's not a flat surface rarely.

• 1:24:49Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 1:24:50Speaker 01

  In the mountains, right? It's off camber or it's slick or it's going uphill.

• 1:24:55Cameron Hanes?

  And sometimes like, who doesn't trip? Catch a toe every once in a while. How fast can you correct? How fast can you recover?

• 1:25:03Speaker 01

  Well, that's why I'm big on mobility.

• 1:25:04Cameron Hanes?

  Okay, and that's, and that's kind of what I do because I know I'm always adjust, like, when we ran down the steps today pretty fast, I said, oh, it's like the football tire drill, you know, it's quick, quick feet. So I'm always like, I just want to be an athlete and that's, I do it for bow hunting, ultra running. I only do ultra running to help me be the, a better bow hunter, but I want to be an athlete in the mountains.

• 1:25:26Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:25:27Cameron Hanes?

  And I just think all that helps me is what, in, in my head, that's what I believe.

• 1:25:30Speaker 01

  Totally.

• 1:25:31Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah, but uh, so on like, you're going to be fifty-five, how are you still performing at such a high level? It's like, this is, feels like a new age of athlete performance for our age of, of person. How is that?

• 1:25:47Speaker 01

  Well, I think that my, my decades of aerobic base helps, you know?

• 1:25:53Cameron Hanes?

  Well, we talked about, what about muscle?

• 1:25:56Speaker 01

  And lifting.

• 1:25:56Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 1:25:57Speaker 01

  I, I've been, I've been strength training since eighth grade.

• 1:25:59Cameron Hanes?

  Cause there's, there's runners and you can't compare one human to another. We're all so different, but you can say who's, who's lifted weights, who has a little muscle to protect their joints and who doesn't and see how that uh, plays out later in life.

• 1:26:14Speaker 01

  Well, and you have to do the little stuff, you know, for me personally, like to continue to like. Perform, I want, like, mobility has been a little more of a focus in the last, say, five years, um, in my 50s. So like, when I go to the weight room, I have a 15 minute routine where I do a bunch of mobility work. And then I lift. Um, you know, I do that three days a week. So no matter what, I'm getting three days a week of mobility and strength.

• 1:26:41Cameron Hanes?

  Strength training.

• 1:26:42Speaker 01

  Now, that strength training's fo- different focus on different days.

• 1:26:45Cameron Hanes?

  Is it dumbbells? Is it free weight? Or what?

• 1:26:47Speaker 01

  I do a lot of dumbbell work, but I do like some big moves, like squats. Um, I'll do like, I like to do squat hinge, and then like some kind of asymmetrical like lunge, like Bulgarian split squat. So like, RDLs, Bulgarian split squats, and squats.

• 1:27:06Cameron Hanes?

  Okay.

• 1:27:06Speaker 01

  Right? Are my three big ones. Like, and those are, the Bulgarian split squats and the, um, RDLs are with dumbbells. But I incre- so, three different focuses a week. The, early in the week, farthest from the long run, I'm doing heavier weight. So think, you know, powerlifting type sets.

• 1:27:25Cameron Hanes?

  Okay.

• 1:27:25Speaker 01

  Right? So first one's a warm up, a little lighter, maybe 12, then you're doing 10, 8, 6, 4, and then a burnout set with half the weight you finish with. So whatever your heaviest weight you finish with at, say, 4, you shed the weight in half, and then you do a burnout set.

• 1:27:43Cameron Hanes?

  To failure?

• 1:27:45Speaker 01

  Or close to failure.

• 1:27:46Cameron Hanes?

  Okay, where it's hurting pretty bad.

• 1:27:47Speaker 01

  Yeah, or where you lose form.

• 1:27:49Cameron Hanes?

  Okay, yeah.

• 1:27:50Speaker 01

  And I really focus on engagement, too. So like, I'm thinking like, like, 2 to 3 second count on the lowering of weight, and then exploding when I lift the weight. So always like, working on eccentric load.

• 1:28:04Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 1:28:04Speaker 01

  Like, I, I want, because you get 70% of your strength gain in the lowering of the weight, right? Eccentric load.

• 1:28:11Cameron Hanes?

  We do negatives, you know, like, you can't even, you can't push it up, but you can go down slow.

• 1:28:15Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:28:15Cameron Hanes?

  And you're still getting, as you said, 70% of just like lifting it.

• 1:28:19Speaker 01

  Well, and that's one of the things, the benefit of like, say, you're trying to get a better bench. One of the way, best ways to do it is to, is to do your normal sets like you would, and then at the end, have a partner that you can lower and then get it, you're lowering it, and then they're helping you lift it back up. And lowering, maybe you do two or three at the end, right? So it is beyond failure.

• 1:28:39Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 1:28:39Speaker 01

  And those are really good.

• 1:28:41Cameron Hanes?

  That's what nobody wants to do.

• 1:28:43Speaker 01

  No, nobody wants to do that. Everybody wants to bust them out really fast. That's actually that's.

• 1:28:48Cameron Hanes?

  And be done.

• 1:28:49Speaker 01

  In the, in the gym, that's one of my pet peeves is, is the muscle heads who like, like bouncing the weight off their chest. It's like, dude, like you're wasting your time. You need to be like lowering that weight slow.

• 1:29:01Cameron Hanes?

  Feel it.

• 1:29:02Speaker 01

  Yeah, you need to burn.

• 1:29:03Cameron Hanes?

  My daughter was doing.

• 1:29:04Speaker 01

  Quality, not quantity.

• 1:29:06Cameron Hanes?

  Squats the other day and she was like, I'm like, what, how, what are you doing? She told me, I said, okay. She, I was sitting here, I said, keep doing them. Tell me when it starts to burn. So she kept going, I said, uh, still look pretty easy. Kept going. I said, okay, now we gotta do 10 more. When she couldn't hardly do any, now, now we're gonna start to count. And that's where most people are done.

• 1:29:30Speaker 01

  Yeah, most people rack the weight.

• 1:29:32Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah, they're done by then, but that's where the growth happens. And I was even explaining, that's my mindset. Like when we were going up that hill today, I was telling, uh, Alexi, Papas was here and we're, we're running up Piska. And it's different because track, I don't really get track, but whatever. I'm like, when I'm running, like when we went up that trail today, I like that trail for, that's where I do my, you know, just trying to get the quads engaged. But, um, when it starts to burn is when I wanna, that's when I'm like really focused on my quads and those, I'm thinking of those fibers breaking down. I'm like, finally now it's, this is where I wanted to get this whole time to where this, it hurts so bad from the burn.

• 1:30:14Cameron Hanes?

  I'm like, this is all I care about. I didn't care about any other shit. I only care about right now. And how long can I fight this off until I can't go anymore? And I'm, I have in my head where instead of that being a negative, that's a positive and that's where I wanted to get. And now I'm envisioning my legs just getting stronger and stronger with every step. And so I've turned it into.

• 1:30:35Speaker 01

  Oh, I like that.

• 1:30:36Cameron Hanes?

  A positive.

• 1:30:37Speaker 01

  Yeah, that's cool.

• 1:30:38Cameron Hanes?

  No, this is, this is where all the gains happen. And.

• 1:30:43Speaker 01

  We were talking about that with the band stuff we were doing like.

• 1:30:45Cameron Hanes?

  Kind of, yeah.

• 1:30:46Speaker 01

  Right? When you get the shake.

• 1:30:47Cameron Hanes?

  That's it.

• 1:30:48Speaker 01

  You need that.

• 1:30:49Cameron Hanes?

  A translate is, it's.

• 1:30:50Speaker 01

  Like embrace it.

• 1:30:51Cameron Hanes?

  It's a lifting mentality into like running up a hill and you can't do that in a race. Cause you're not gonna, you're gonna, you know, you're gonna ruin your race if you try to, you know, we know that on a steep uphill, we want to hike it. Right? Especially early in the race. You want to blow out your quads, but in training, I want to blow them out. And so I'm like, that's the kind of the mindset and Alexi was saying like in track, they would do their repeats. And it's always like, even today, you're like, kind of, you're about at your limit at the end and then you're done.

• 1:31:26Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 1:31:27Cameron Hanes?

  You're not going past that. That'd be like going another 400 today. You know, and nobody does that on track.

• 1:31:33Speaker 01

  No, and I think there'd be a high rate of probably injury.

• 1:31:36Cameron Hanes?

  Probably. That's why they don't. And I, I get it. And I, it's just, so she's like, I've never thought about this fiber, muscle fiber and burning and pushing and growing. Never thought about that ever. And she was, she has the Olympic record for Greece in the 10, 10 K. And that was a new phenomenon for her. So it's this, it's, but it's this meathead mentality into training for the mountains.

• 1:31:59Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:32:00Cameron Hanes?

  I don't know if it makes sense, but does to me.

• 1:32:02Speaker 01

  I think it does in, in specific circumstances and especially in what we do, like if you look at a mountain runner, they're definitely more like a Noric skier. They're more muscular overall.

• 1:32:12Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 1:32:12Speaker 01

  Because we have, we are, we have like a lot of dynamic movements and just running uphill in general is a strengthener.

• 1:32:19Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 1:32:19Speaker 01

  Because of the load.

• 1:32:20Cameron Hanes?

  Definitely. I mean, I never hardly trained legs, but I have good legs just from running the mountain.

• 1:32:26Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:32:27Cameron Hanes?

  You know what I mean? But I think that, I think strength training in the gym would help. Like, like what you do. I think if I did that, I think, yeah, I mean, maybe I could, maybe I'll win, win in. I got, I got one win in my ultra running career.

• 1:32:45Speaker 01

  I like to do the, I like to do squats, like squats, RDLs and, and Bulgarian split squats. Those three moves. And then once a week I do leg curl, leg extension.

• 1:32:56Cameron Hanes?

  I used to love leg extension.

• 1:32:57Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:32:58Cameron Hanes?

  In the gym.

• 1:32:58Speaker 01

  And I really like doing that stuff. And then the other two days are more like dumbbell work, upper body, lower body core. Dumbbell work, um, you know, flies and curls and tricep kickbacks and stuff like that. And then, um, and then a lot of like. Lunges and squats, ATG split squats, if you know that move where your knees out over your toe.

• 1:33:21Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 1:33:22Speaker 01

  Like, I've really focused on that the last couple of years.

• 1:33:24Cameron Hanes?

  Do you have your athletes do all this too, that you coach?

• 1:33:27Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:33:27Cameron Hanes?

  Gotcha.

• 1:33:27Speaker 01

  Yeah, we have, we have specific strength and it depends on periodization phases. Like if they're in the off season, we'll do heavier weight and more, maybe more time in the weight room. And then when they get into like big volume training, it's more maintenance work in the weight room. Cause I like going out and doing upper body, lower body dumbbell work. Because it works on full range of motion. Right? And it forces you into full range of motion under a slight load. Even if you're doing lighter dumbbells, you're still doing it through a full range of motion under a slight load.

• 1:33:54Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:33:55Speaker 01

  Right? So there is a stimulus still there.

• 1:33:57Cameron Hanes?

  I like it.

• 1:33:58Speaker 01

  But sometimes it's awesome because it's just you, you need to be able to, like we were talking about, like if you kick a rock and you go from 10 minute pace to four minute pace, try not to face plant.

• 1:34:09Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 1:34:10Speaker 01

  Those who have good range of motion in their hips and in their knee flexion and ankle flexion will might be able to pull out of that and maybe just tap a hand down, right?

• 1:34:18Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah, or not land on their face.

• 1:34:19Speaker 01

  Or you kiss dirt.

• 1:34:21Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah, lose all their teeth.

• 1:34:22Speaker 01

  Yeah, exactly.

• 1:34:23Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah, no, it's a.

• 1:34:24Speaker 01

  Sheer them off.

• 1:34:25Cameron Hanes?

  What I've always heard and Mark Bell told me this, he's a big weightlifter down, lives in California, a stud, but strength is never a weakness.

• 1:34:34Speaker 01

  No.

• 1:34:34Cameron Hanes?

  So that's, that's, they have a motto there, strength is never a weakness. And then, uh.

• 1:34:40Speaker 01

  Except in the marathon and we've, we've been talking about Truitt today.

• 1:34:43Cameron Hanes?

  I know, I know.

• 1:34:44Speaker 01

  He's got to shed that upper body weight.

• 1:34:45Cameron Hanes?

  God.

• 1:34:46Speaker 01

  It's gonna be hard, man. Cause once you build it. Once you've, once you've done that work.

• 1:34:51Cameron Hanes?

  It's like.

• 1:34:52Speaker 01

  The body doesn't want to let go of it.

• 1:34:54Cameron Hanes?

  We talked, we've talked about this with him. It's like, there's a set point and his set point of his body where it naturally wants to be is heavier than where he needs to be. So you gotta fight that body's set point.

• 1:35:06Speaker 01

  Yeah. The only way is if he had never like really got into lifting weights.

• 1:35:10Cameron Hanes?

  He was almost 190. So he's really has to lose 50 pounds.

• 1:35:14Speaker 01

  Yeah, some of his old pictures I've looked through is, he was jacked. He was huge.

• 1:35:18Cameron Hanes?

  That was when he, like we said in 2023, he ran 60 miles the whole year.

• 1:35:23Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:35:24Cameron Hanes?

  Only lifting. But just, just, and then, you know, so he hasn't, yeah, I mean, so this is just different.

• 1:35:30Speaker 01

  I love that he's going after it, man.

• 1:35:32Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah. Yeah, it's fun. I think it'll be

• 1:35:36Speaker 01

  I can tell you're proud of him too.

• 1:35:37Cameron Hanes?

  Oh.

• 1:35:38Speaker 01

  It's fun to watch.

• 1:35:39Cameron Hanes?

  No.

• 1:35:39Speaker 01

  I mean, I get the dad thing, dude.

• 1:35:41Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah, I mean, so when I see the retarded comments on there from some people who don't, aren't supportive, it gets a little, but we're so used to social media.

• 1:35:51Speaker 01

  Yeah, I was gonna say, does your hackles go up a little bit?

• 1:35:53Cameron Hanes?

  We're so.

• 1:35:53Speaker 01

  Especially with a kid, with your kid.

• 1:35:55Cameron Hanes?

  We're, yeah, I mean, it's, it's hard not to get a little bit protective, but we're so used to hate, dude. We've got a lot of hate for a long time. And like I told him, I said, listen, you got a lot to hate. You're good looking, you're ripped, you're, you know, everything people would want to hate on somebody for, you got it.

• 1:36:11Speaker 01

  Right, right.

• 1:36:12Cameron Hanes?

  Got expected.

• 1:36:13Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:36:13Cameron Hanes?

  But, uh.

• 1:36:14Speaker 01

  Yeah, let it roll off you like rain, dude.

• 1:36:16Cameron Hanes?

  Tell me like, um, in your, like, coming up with this long career, who has been like, who is your ultra running hero? Like, did you have one or were you in like at the ground level of it?

• 1:36:28Speaker 01

  No, no, I mean, Rock Horton.

• 1:36:30Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 1:36:30Speaker 01

  Was a huge mentor and influence on me. Um, you know, 10 time hard rock finisher, like, just, we shared, we shared a campsite and learned we both played guitar at Big Horn in 05. And that was my first 100 mile win. And, and he was on the Montreal Patagonia team and, and we just like, we clicked. And he just took me under his wing. My kids called him Uncle Rock. And like, and they still are like an influence in our life. And, um, he doesn't race anymore, you know, and.

• 1:37:04Cameron Hanes?

  How old is he now?

• 1:37:06Speaker 01

  He's gotta be in his 70s or close to it. I'm not sure.

• 1:37:12Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 1:37:12Speaker 01

  But I mean, he's.

• 1:37:13Cameron Hanes?

  So he helped you out early.

• 1:37:14Speaker 01

  Yeah, he was in his, he was in his four, like, early 40s back then. Um, and just was a great mentor. Um, he was probably the biggest influence on me like from a personal level, like one on one. And then others, you know, I obviously like looked up to Scott Jurick. You know, he was like the man when I got in, him and Carl both, Melzer, were both like it, you know, dominating the sport when I got into it. You know, cover of ultra running magazine and stuff like that. And Scott was like on, when I got in 01, Scott was like starting his domination of Western States, that seven year run where he won every year and got, finally got the course record.

• 1:37:53Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 1:37:55Speaker 01

  And, and then it's been cool, like this whole long. This whole long thing has just been this like, I think the coolest thing about our sport is like your heroes become friends at some point, right? So like Scott Jurek, for example, was like on the pedestal for me when I got in the sport. Like, whoa. And then all of a sudden, like, fast forward, he's kind of retired from racing. I'm still doing it. And then he comes out and like the last four days on the Colorado Trail FKT in 2024, like pushes me to get the record in that direction, you know? Like, he's, he's like the last downhill. He's nose to nose with me at the top of the descent.

• 1:38:38Cameron Hanes?

  You said you guys were forehead, like almost like

• 1:38:40Speaker 01

  Almost forehead to forehead.

• 1:38:42Cameron Hanes?

  Football helmet.

• 1:38:43Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:38:43Cameron Hanes?

  When guys are yelling at each other.

• 1:38:45Speaker 01

  You're OG Bronco.

• 1:38:46Cameron Hanes?

  I love it.

• 1:38:46Speaker 01

  And just like, yeah, and it got me yelling and like

• 1:38:50Cameron Hanes?

  Is that on film? Who, did you film this? Come on.

• 1:38:54Speaker 01

  Oh, man.

• 1:38:54Cameron Hanes?

  All this good stuff.

• 1:38:55Speaker 01

  It was, we were telling, to see these stories come out while you're running.

• 1:38:58Cameron Hanes?

  I know. I know. I love it.

• 1:39:00Speaker 01

  Oh, man. It was just like, it was just like so intense. And then, you know, that really, we already knew each other from over the years, you know, and, and, you know, but it was more like we'd run each other by sponsors or like at outdoor retailer, you know, but that really cemented a friendship that then fast forward to like Jamil going after that Chipotle record last year.

• 1:39:23Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 1:39:23Speaker 01

  And Timby, we went down for the last 40 hours.

• 1:39:26Cameron Hanes?

  Oh, you and Scott?

• 1:39:27Speaker 01

  He called me.

• 1:39:27Cameron Hanes?

  Wow.

• 1:39:28Speaker 01

  And it was like, Bronco, I'm freaking heading to Timby. I'm getting on an airplane this afternoon, drive, he just goes, you're driving to Phoenix.

• 1:39:36Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 1:39:37Speaker 01

  And I go, what? I gotta talk to my wife. Like, and so I, I talked to Jen and, and it's awesome because she, she, she always puts things in perspective for me. And she goes, Jeff, if you would have went back to 2002, when you ran Western States for your first time and, and, and said, in 20 some years, Scott Jurek's gonna call you and ask you to go to Timby, Arizona to hang out.

• 1:40:00Cameron Hanes?

  You gotta do it.

• 1:40:01Speaker 01

  You would drop everything.

• 1:40:03Cameron Hanes?

  You gotta do it. That's a legend.

• 1:40:05Speaker 01

  And I was like, totally.

• 1:40:07Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 1:40:07Speaker 01

  And I just texted back, I'm on my way.

• 1:40:09Cameron Hanes?

  Oh, how, how amazing is that?

• 1:40:11Speaker 01

  That's what's cool about our sport.

• 1:40:12Cameron Hanes?

  That's life. I mean, that's like, that's the, so the winning, yes, all that is amazing. You've had an incredible career. To me, that's, that's what stands out. Stories like that, friendships like that, moments like that. That's what

• 1:40:27Cameron Hanes?

  That's what being a human, that's like, that's what we cherish.

• 1:40:31Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:40:32Cameron Hanes?

  Those moments and it's like, it's just, I love it. I love that because you can only get a moment like that when you're immersed in something you you've loved for so long and Scott's loved it. You've loved it. There's this connection and now you're just like, it's, I mean, it's beautiful. It's, it's amazing. Was anybody else that?

• 1:40:52Speaker 01

  I mean, Carl Meltzer has been a really good friend and buddy over the years and I've always respected him and what he's done, you know, and obviously he he's got the most hundred mile wins in the world and I'm second. So he's way ahead of me dude. Fifty something now.

• 1:41:06Cameron Hanes?

  Oh, my God.

• 1:41:06Speaker 01

  Yeah, I only have thirty two. I'm not catching him.

• 1:41:08Cameron Hanes?

  Dude, that is nuts, though.

• 1:41:10Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:41:10Cameron Hanes?

  Thirty two?

• 1:41:11Speaker 01

  Yeah, but he was running like six a year, you know, six hundreds a year and winning five of them or, you know.

• 1:41:17Cameron Hanes?

  Does he have a nickname?

• 1:41:19Speaker 01

  Speed Goat.

• 1:41:20Cameron Hanes?

  Oh, that's right.

• 1:41:21Speaker 01

  Yeah, dude.

• 1:41:22Cameron Hanes?

  So you guys both got the-

• 1:41:23Speaker 01

  He trademarked that.

• 1:41:24Cameron Hanes?

  You guys both got the sick nickname.

• 1:41:26Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:41:28Cameron Hanes?

  That's right. Speed Goat.

• 1:41:29Speaker 01

  I always say when we get together, it's like, man, we gotta get Bronco Billy and the goat back together.

• 1:41:33Cameron Hanes?

  Oh, that is, I mean, that's just epic. See, that's what it, that's, that's what we like. You know, it's like Mean Joe Green. Remember him?

• 1:41:39Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:41:40Cameron Hanes?

  Pittsburgh Steelers. You gotta have a nickname.

• 1:41:42Speaker 01

  The Steelers were my team, man. I, I grew up near Kansas City and the Chiefs sucked in the eighties.

• 1:41:47Cameron Hanes?

  Lynn Swan?

• 1:41:48Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 1:41:48Cameron Hanes?

  Cause we were receivers.

• 1:41:50Speaker 01

  I was a wide receiver. Yes, sir.

• 1:41:51Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah, Lynn Swan. Yeah, he was the man. I, okay, that's pretty cool. Um, who, like, who do you think is the up and comer just that has this, uh, that you think is gonna have a great career? Who's your favorite?

• 1:42:05Speaker 01

  Hans Troyer.

• 1:42:06Cameron Hanes?

  Think so?

• 1:42:07Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:42:07Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 1:42:07Speaker 01

  I like Hans. I, we were teammates for one year.

• 1:42:10Cameron Hanes?

  Okay.

• 1:42:10Speaker 01

  This, we had Ultra. Yeah, he just, he just signed with Hoka this year.

• 1:42:14Cameron Hanes?

  Okay.

• 1:42:15Speaker 01

  Um, I mean, just, he's a character.

• 1:42:17Cameron Hanes?

  Is that the kid?

• 1:42:18Speaker 01

  Yeah, the kid.

• 1:42:19Cameron Hanes?

  Okay, yeah.

• 1:42:20Speaker 01

  And he's just a, he's a good old Georgia country boy.

• 1:42:22Cameron Hanes?

  Is this, he's in a trailer? Like, does he live in a trailer or something like that?

• 1:42:26Speaker 01

  He's in like an RV trailer.

• 1:42:27Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:42:28Speaker 01

  So he could save money, right? And just run.

• 1:42:31Cameron Hanes?

  See, I love that.

• 1:42:31Speaker 01

  But if you watch the, have you watched the kid?

• 1:42:33Cameron Hanes?

  I think so, yeah.

• 1:42:34Speaker 01

  Yeah, or he's like-

• 1:42:35Cameron Hanes?

  Was he get sick or something?

• 1:42:37Speaker 01

  Yeah, but you remember he was like, he was like riding wheelies and stuff on like a motorcycle or something? Like, I'm like, oh, yeah. That kid.

• 1:42:45Cameron Hanes?

  That's a free spirit.

• 1:42:46Speaker 01

  Yeah, I grew up on the three wheelers, man. I could ride, I could ride a wheelie for a quarter mile.

• 1:42:50Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah, a free spirit. I think that's my favorite type of person right there.

• 1:42:53Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:42:54Cameron Hanes?

  But Hans Troyer, what about on the women's side?

• 1:42:58Speaker 01

  I mean, obviously Rachel's up and the big up and comer, right? She hasn't been at a major race yet.

• 1:43:04Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah, that's what I'm curious about to see what she's got that dog in her when it gets tough.

• 1:43:08Speaker 01

  When it gets really tough in big competition.

• 1:43:11Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:43:11Speaker 01

  I mean, she, and she mixes it up with like hundreds and two hundreds and right. She's obviously a very good 200 mile runner. But I, I want to see her like on the world stage in a hundred.

• 1:43:21Cameron Hanes?

  Me too.

• 1:43:22Speaker 01

  That, that's something you, you put pressure her next week.

• 1:43:26Cameron Hanes?

  I will. Yeah, she, she, I like her because she said she wants to be on shit talkers. She said she's a good shit talker. I'm like, okay.

• 1:43:34Speaker 01

  She is a, she's a talker. All right. She can go.

• 1:43:37Cameron Hanes?

  Good, good. I love it. That's the personality we need.

• 1:43:40Speaker 01

  Yeah, dude.

• 1:43:40Cameron Hanes?

  See?

• 1:43:41Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:43:41Cameron Hanes?

  It's, uh, I love these characters. Um, so, okay. And speaking of that, so, okay, your film, Dylan's film, but you were featured, The Chase, um, there's been some iconic ultra running films. Uh, the first, the foremost was Unbreakable.

• 1:43:59Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:43:59Cameron Hanes?

  How, how do we, and that, The Chase, I think that was kind of the formula maybe.

• 1:44:04Speaker 01

  Yeah, it was an ode to the, to Unbreakable.

• 1:44:07Cameron Hanes?

  So how do we make these great films? I mean, we can't, we can't keep going to the cookie cutter of the four top guys, can we? Or can we? I don't know.

• 1:44:17Speaker 01

  Well, I want to see the top women film, which they're working on.

• 1:44:20Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah. Oh, that'd be sick.

• 1:44:22Speaker 01

  Cause they just, they need the right field too.

• 1:44:24Cameron Hanes?

  Right.

• 1:44:24Speaker 01

  You need the right field to come together, right? And when, when The Chase came together, it was like, well, we got a good field of men. So we, we need to make this film.

• 1:44:33Cameron Hanes?

  And was it? Was, is there a thought on, okay, you take the four maybe favorites, but are we looking at the biggest characters or is it the best runners?

• 1:44:45Speaker 01

  I think what's cool about ultra running is you could pick four people, or for example in The Chase, right? They picked five guys to follow.

• 1:44:52Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 1:44:53Speaker 01

  And then Harry like throws a wrench in it.

• 1:44:55Cameron Hanes?

  Mm-hmm.

• 1:44:56Speaker 01

  Right? So.

• 1:44:58Cameron Hanes?

  Oh, yeah, because he wasn't the featured one, but he won, right?

• 1:45:00Speaker 01

  No, yeah, he won.

• 1:45:01Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 1:45:02Speaker 01

  So that's what's cool about ultra running, right?

• 1:45:03Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah, it's unpredictable.

• 1:45:04Speaker 01

  You can, you can, you can say, yeah, these are our five favorites, but like then some two other dudes are gonna show up and be like, or two other girls are gonna show up and like throw a wrench in your film. And then you have to figure out how to tell this story. And that's what's, it's challenging, but it's also a cool aspect of our sport.

• 1:45:19Cameron Hanes?

  Right, unpredictability.

• 1:45:20Speaker 01

  It's very unpredictable.

• 1:45:22Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah, you can, and the hundreds, I think it's a little easier to predict the outcome of a hundred, even though it's not perfect, but way easier than a multi-day.

• 1:45:31Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah.

• 1:45:32Cameron Hanes?

  The multi-day, I can't, I can't believe only one person, Harry was the only one to screw up that plan. I mean, that's amazing.

• 1:45:38Speaker 01

  Yeah, right?

• 1:45:39Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah, that, that.

• 1:45:40Speaker 01

  Yeah, a lot of dudes rose to the occasion that, in that, in that race.

• 1:45:44Cameron Hanes?

  That, um, tell me, like, when did, how late into that race did you think you were gonna get the win? And when, when did it change?

• 1:45:56Speaker 01

  I didn't, I didn't think about it, I didn't expect to take the lead that early, like mile eighty-five.

• 1:46:02Cameron Hanes?

  There was a time, oh, God, yeah, you're lying, dude. Okay, so anybody who hasn't seen this film, go watch The Chase.

• 1:46:09Speaker 01

  On YouTube.

• 1:46:10Cameron Hanes?

  It's an incredible ultra running film, but there's a line in there where you say, it's not what you wanted, but it's what you needed.

• 1:46:16Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:46:17Cameron Hanes?

  Dude, that gave me chills. And I think you were even, like, you were getting emotional, but to me, that's real, that's emotion, that is real, that is.

• 1:46:26Speaker 01

  Well, it would've just fed my ego, dude, if I'd won. You know, sometimes you don't need that.

• 1:46:30Cameron Hanes?

  I know, I mean.

• 1:46:31Speaker 01

  Sometimes you need a little, a little humble pie.

• 1:46:35Cameron Hanes?

  It was amazing for you in that moment to say it, you know, to, to verbalize it. That's what it was, to me, is, yeah, we might know that, or we might think that, but to say that and admit that, and you can see it's real, to me, that was beautiful cinema.

• 1:46:54Speaker 01

  Yeah, I'm glad he caught that and he pushed me on that question. Like, I think Dylan's good at like that.

• 1:47:00Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 1:47:01Speaker 01

  Like, he, he really was like asking harder questions. But also like I, when he asked like where, where should we do the interview, like I, I was like, man, I want to go back to the log I got passed at.

• 1:47:14Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah, that was a, so that was like from the drone shot, right? And you stopped and then, um, Harry.

• 1:47:23Speaker 01

  Yeah, Harry comes out of the trees. So they didn't get it on film of him passing me. But they were expecting, because you're, there's a set of trees that you climb up into the back of Buffalo Park. And then it's a straight shot through Buffalo Park and that's where they had the film and they had like a drone and they were just waiting on the live feed for someone to come out of the pines. And, and I had gone, I was in the lead the whole time and all of a sudden Harry comes out and they're not even sure.

• 1:47:46Cameron Hanes?

  And that's where that, then I can't, who is the announcer? I can't remember, but saying like, that's Jeff Browning.

• 1:47:52Speaker 01

  No, no, wasn't me.

• 1:47:54Cameron Hanes?

  Oh God. Then they're like, wait, no, he was wearing, I can't remember how it went. But anyway, it was just so real and raw, just because I've done that race. I wasn't winning, but I just know you put, you, I mean, it's taking, it's testing everything you have. It's pulling every ounce of life from you at times. It feels like to keep going. So in that moment, um, how did that feel? What did you, or when did you think? Yeah. Tell me, tell your mind, your mindset. I want to know.

• 1:48:25Speaker 01

  Well, I mean, when I started, like I started having those breathing issues, I didn't start thinking about, I might be able to win this until like, maybe 15 miles to go.

• 1:48:36Cameron Hanes?

  Cause you led for, how long did you lead?

• 1:48:38Speaker 01

  165 miles.

• 1:48:41Cameron Hanes?

  God, that's a long time. So with 15 miles left, you thought I could win this?

• 1:48:45Speaker 01

  I might be able to win this.

• 1:48:46Cameron Hanes?

  Okay.

• 1:48:47Speaker 01

  But then it's like, I was also like a little bit in dream state because I like my O2 sat level was so low with the like, you know, you know, for context, for listeners, it's, it's, it's, um, I had an upper respiratory infection like three weeks out. Kind of got over it like five days before with symptoms, but like after talking to docs afterwards, I, I, you basically put yourself in a stressful situation. You get a cytokine storm and then it comes out as reactive airway, which is basically a swollen airway. So you're like, you're breathing through a straw.

• 1:49:18Cameron Hanes?

  Mm hmm.

• 1:49:19Speaker 01

  And it's just.

• 1:49:19Cameron Hanes?

  Not the greatest for running.

• 1:49:21Speaker 01

  No.

• 1:49:22Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 1:49:22Speaker 01

  And not at 7,000 feet and then have to go over 9,300 feet.

• 1:49:25Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 1:49:26Speaker 01

  Right. Climb Eldon at the end.

• 1:49:27Cameron Hanes?

  Mm hmm.

• 1:49:28Speaker 01

  And so I, I, I slowly went and then it pushes your oxygen saturation level down in your blood. Right? So we, you know, we're sitting here at this table, we're probably at 98%.

• 1:49:39Cameron Hanes?

  Hmm.

• 1:49:39Speaker 01

  And I was, after the race, I was 83% after a half an hour of sitting and resting. So going over Eldon at 9,300 feet, I'm sure it was in the seventies.

• 1:49:48Cameron Hanes?

  Hmm.

• 1:49:48Speaker 01

  Which is, that's when you start to pass out.

• 1:49:50Cameron Hanes?

  So low.

• 1:49:51Speaker 01

  And I was feeling lightheaded. I had legs, but I didn't have lungs.

• 1:49:56Cameron Hanes?

  Hmm.

• 1:49:56Speaker 01

  And so, um, which then messes with your coordination and then I couldn't, I, once I went over Eldon, I think it pushed my O2 sat level so low, then on the downhill, I couldn't get air.

• 1:50:06Cameron Hanes?

  Oh.

• 1:50:07Speaker 01

  And so I, I kept stopping and like, and I could only get really a little bit, some air through my nose. So I would do nose breathing. I was like.

• 1:50:15Cameron Hanes?

  Hmm. That's weird.

• 1:50:16Speaker 01

  Hmm.

• 1:50:18Cameron Hanes?

  Couldn't get air through your mouth.

• 1:50:19Speaker 01

  No, none through my mouth.

• 1:50:20Cameron Hanes?

  Huh.

• 1:50:21Speaker 01

  It was like someone had blocked it.

• 1:50:22Cameron Hanes?

  Okay. So you were, you came off Eldon. When you come out, how many miles you got?

• 1:50:26Speaker 01

  Well, so that was the old course.

• 1:50:28Cameron Hanes?

  Okay. Yeah.

• 1:50:29Speaker 01

  Cause we went up the hard part, you came down.

• 1:50:32Cameron Hanes?

  Right. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 1:50:32Speaker 01

  Up Eldon, the hard rocky part. We went up that and then you go down the road on, on the, on the west side.

• 1:50:40Cameron Hanes?

  Okay.

• 1:50:40Speaker 01

  And then you go down through, so you guys went around the south side, right? And went off the east side.

• 1:50:45Cameron Hanes?

  Yes.

• 1:50:45Speaker 01

  We went off the west side, which is mainly just a gravel access road to the radio towers. And then into single track.

• 1:50:51Cameron Hanes?

  That's what they were saying on the film. They're like, oh, it's pretty much smooth sailing now.

• 1:50:54Speaker 01

  It is dude.

• 1:50:55Cameron Hanes?

  And if he's leading now, he's got it.

• 1:50:57Speaker 01

  And when, when I took off all the top, I, I was running like 750 pace. Like my legs were there.

• 1:51:02Cameron Hanes?

  Oh God.

• 1:51:03Speaker 01

  I just, I then all of a sudden I started getting lightheaded.

• 1:51:05Cameron Hanes?

  Hmm.

• 1:51:05Speaker 01

  Cause I'm not getting enough air.

• 1:51:07Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 1:51:07Speaker 01

  And so then I, I like, I had to keep stopping and stopping and stopping. And they were just getting closer and closer to me and, and. I was just in La La Land, man.

• 1:51:17Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 1:51:18Speaker 01

  And then by the time I got to, I was like coming into the back, it was like literally a half a mile from the back of Buffalo Park.

• 1:51:24Cameron Hanes?

  Hmm.

• 1:51:25Speaker 01

  So to climb up into Buffalo Park, that's where he caught me.

• 1:51:28Cameron Hanes?

  Oh, I got you.

• 1:51:29Speaker 01

  And he was running and I was walking and I couldn't really run anymore because of my.

• 1:51:33Cameron Hanes?

  You had accepted your fate at that time, just like, ah.

• 1:51:36Speaker 01

  I gotta walk it in and if he catches me, he catches me.

• 1:51:38Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 1:51:39Speaker 01

  And when I saw him, I, there was a log like right there and I just sat on the log, waiting for him to come up, you know, and accept my fate. And I, you know, it was like that, have you watched the film? I was like, I sounded like the Godfather because I was like, I can only talk like this.

• 1:51:59Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 1:51:59Speaker 01

  I was like, Harry, you get the win, man.

• 1:52:02Cameron Hanes?

  Oh, God. That's epic.

• 1:52:05Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:52:06Cameron Hanes?

  What, what a moment. I mean, what a.

• 1:52:11Speaker 01

  It still cuts a little to the heart.

• 1:52:13Cameron Hanes?

  I know, I can imagine.

• 1:52:14Speaker 01

  Dude.

• 1:52:15Cameron Hanes?

  I mean, I can imagine.

• 1:52:16Speaker 01

  250 miles.

• 1:52:19Cameron Hanes?

  God, you fought.

• 1:52:20Speaker 01

  I wanted that win so bad.

• 1:52:21Cameron Hanes?

  Fought so hard for so long, but that is.

• 1:52:26Speaker 01

  That's why I'm going back this year.

• 1:52:27Cameron Hanes?

  Multi-day ultra runner.

• 1:52:28Speaker 01

  Yeah, it is. And then that is it.

• 1:52:30Cameron Hanes?

  That's, that's, that's the nature of the business.

• 1:52:33Speaker 01

  Yeah. I jokingly told Dylan, the filmmaker, like, hey, I did that for the film.

• 1:52:40Speaker 01

  We needed some drama.

• 1:52:41Cameron Hanes?

  That was, that was it. Well, that was, like I said, it was amazing cinema. I mean, it, it's, in some ways it sucks, but in some ways it's like, it's such a vivid picture of what ultra running is.

• 1:52:57Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:52:57Cameron Hanes?

  And it's just like, if you thought, if, if you don't understand it, watch that film and you might, you, you won't know what it feels like in that moment, but you might have a little better understanding.

• 1:53:07Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:53:08Cameron Hanes?

  On how hard these athletes push, how they're willing to lay everything on the line just to see what they're capable of. And that, that, that moment will see the raw emotion of wins and losses when enough is enough and when it's not enough. And that's just how it works out there.

• 1:53:27Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:53:28Cameron Hanes?

  And it doesn't mean it's fair, it's just the way it is.

• 1:53:32Speaker 01

  Right. I got a bonus question for you.

• 1:53:35Cameron Hanes?

  Okay.

• 1:53:36Speaker 01

  All the years of hunting.

• 1:53:38Cameron Hanes?

  Mm-hmm.

• 1:53:38Speaker 01

  I, I. Have you ever seen anything crazy like weird like cryptid like Bigfoot?

• 1:53:45Cameron Hanes?

  Oh, no.

• 1:53:46Speaker 01

  I always I always wanted to ask you that.

• 1:53:47Cameron Hanes?

  Nothing crazy like that out there.

• 1:53:49Speaker 01

  My my fourteen year old said, Dad, you gotta ask.

• 1:53:51Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 1:53:52Speaker 01

  Yeah, no.

• 1:53:54Cameron Hanes?

  I haven't seen anything like that. I mean.

• 1:53:56Speaker 01

  Anything that made you went, what was that?

• 1:53:58Cameron Hanes?

  No. No, it's all pretty. Yeah, it's I mean, there's intense, big bears.

• 1:54:05Speaker 01

  Yeah, right.

• 1:54:06Cameron Hanes?

  You know, buffalo in Africa. It's all like, you know, it might feel better to see something crazy because it might not be as dangerous as a grizzly that's, you know, come wants to kill you.

• 1:54:16Speaker 01

  Totally, dude.

• 1:54:17Cameron Hanes?

  But but no, I haven't seen anything nuts like that. But yeah, I don't know. It's a wow. What an awesome discussion, dude. I'm so I'm so pumped. James? Yeah. So we have we go to the peanut gallery here for bonus questions.

• 1:54:33Speaker 01

  Right on.

• 1:54:34Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah, so we might. Yeah, I wouldn't be wouldn't be holding out your hope for anything good here. But. Yeah, hold on, let me get down to him. Usually about butt plugs.

• 1:54:45Speaker 02

  I have something that I think would be interesting for you guys to talk about.

• 1:54:49Cameron Hanes?

  Okay.

• 1:54:50Speaker 02

  You guys have both like dedicated yourself to a craft for a very long time. And personally, that inspires me a lot. And now you guys are kind of you're still competing at it. I think you have so much respect for it. But you're also in some ways, people are looking at you guys. You're giving back in certain ways through storytelling, all these things. Like, is that important to you? Do you think about that? You know, I think you you guys are to the point in your careers where it's like you've been doing this craft for so long. Is it important to pass the message now, pass the culture?

• 1:55:27Cameron Hanes?

  Go ahead.

• 1:55:28Speaker 02

  Sorry.

• 1:55:29Speaker 01

  I yeah, for me, yeah, especially as a graphic designer and like storytelling and marketing and branding and and just loving good stories and good, good. You know, even a campfire story, whatever. Like, I want to tell those stories and I, and I think it's really cool to like, it's inspiring to me when I hear cool stories. And I, I want to hear them. I want to, I want to see people struggle. I want to see them be challenged and overcome and sometimes not overcome. You know, failure is like a stepping stone to success. Too many times we, you look at failures like something we want to avoid.

• 1:56:02Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 1:56:03Speaker 01

  But actually, we need to embrace it.

• 1:56:04Cameron Hanes?

  Mm hmm.

• 1:56:05Speaker 01

  And I think, I think teaching a younger generation of runners or bow hunters or whatever, may, you know, you're not, might not get the bull.

• 1:56:14Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 1:56:15Speaker 01

  Right?

• 1:56:15Cameron Hanes?

  Usually you don't.

• 1:56:16Speaker 01

  Yeah, exactly.

• 1:56:17Cameron Hanes?

  I mean, success rate without hunting with a bow is 10%. So, most people don't get it.

• 1:56:22Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:56:23Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 1:56:23Speaker 01

  Yeah. So like, you know, the process is what we need to lean into.

• 1:56:27Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah. It's a, yeah, and life is suffering and we are going to suffer. So where I've had the most growth is when I've suffered the most on long hunts, hard races. And that's when you're faced with who you really are. And so if us talking about this and sharing our experiences and sharing how this special, whether it's bow hunting or ultra and has impacted our lives and changed our lives for the better. If that can influence others and inspire others, then they're going to have a richer life, just based on us talking about it. And if, if somebody can have a richer life because they're in the mountains, they're healing, they're, they're, you know, that's, that's as real as it gets, surviving in the mountains, right?

• 1:57:12Cameron Hanes?

  And pushing yourself and just sharing that with, with other humans. If that can change or, or allow somebody to access that and feel what I felt, then that's what I want. So that's, that's what I'm trying to do. I don't have really any huge goals for what I need to accomplish in my life. Just sharing how, how impactful this has been for me is, that's enough. That's why I want you here. That's why I want to talk about this. I want these young guys to listen to this and be like, I want to be a 57 year old, haggard, broke down ultra running bow hunter and have six stories. I want to have a story like Jeff Browning just told. You know, and that's, so if us sharing that gives people like that, um, something to dream on.

• 1:57:58Cameron Hanes?

  Perfect.

• 1:57:59Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:58:00Cameron Hanes?

  Perfect.

• 1:58:01Speaker 01

  Yeah, I want to get clawed in the back of the head by a territorial owl, which has happened. Cascade crest.

• 1:58:07Cameron Hanes?

  Did you win the race?

• 1:58:08Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 1:58:08Cameron Hanes?

  Of course, of course you did. Okay, what do you got?

• 1:58:12Speaker 03

  Well, since you said you've been listening to the shit talkers, then you might, you might know what's coming. But the opening question we've asked a bunch of people and it's marry kill. Have you played this game?

• 1:58:24Speaker 01

  No.

• 1:58:24Speaker 03

  Okay, so marry kill is like one, one, one night stand. You get to have fun with it for one last time. Mary is that's what you have for the rest of your life and kill is you never get to experience again.

• 1:58:37Speaker 03

  So you gotta do this for all three of these. Western states, hard rock, UTMB.

• 1:58:46Speaker 01

  Mary.

• 1:58:47Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah, one, one you're gonna do over and over. Kill, you'll, you'll never do it again. One is one, one more time.

• 1:58:55Speaker 01

  I would do it over and over and over if I could, if I could get to all three, you know, I thought you were saying I gotta do all.

• 1:59:00Speaker 03

  You're gonna assign each one a category.

• 1:59:03Cameron Hanes?

  One is, one is marry, one is kill of those three.

• 1:59:06Speaker 01

  Oh.

• 1:59:06Cameron Hanes?

  So one you're never doing again, one you're doing over and over and one you're doing just one more time.

• 1:59:11Speaker 01

  Well, I'm gonna do hard rock over and over and over and over.

• 1:59:15Cameron Hanes?

  So you're gonna marry hard rock.

• 1:59:16Speaker 01

  Yeah, I'm marrying hard rock for sure.

• 1:59:18Cameron Hanes?

  So you got one more time for one of them, never again for the other.

• 1:59:23Speaker 01

  One more time for Western states, never again for UTMB.

• 1:59:28Cameron Hanes?

  Okay, there we go, we're killing UTMB, we're uh, Western states and we're marrying hard rock.

• 1:59:35Speaker 03

  Okay, this, this next question.

• 1:59:37Speaker 01

  Hard rock's my favorite race, man.

• 1:59:40Cameron Hanes?

  Love it.

• 1:59:40Speaker 03

  This next one is one I got into a little hot water for and now I like asking ultra runners this question. Is a 50K a real ultra?

• 1:59:52Speaker 01

  Yes. It's far, by definition, it's longer than a marathon.

• 1:59:59Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 1:59:59Speaker 01

  So it's an ultra marathon. So I've heard that question and I always am like talking out loud when you guys ask it. Like, of course it is. Like, it's longer than a marathon. You guys can't like redefine ultra marathon?

• 2:00:12Cameron Hanes?

  Well, okay.

• 2:00:13Speaker 01

  You gotta come up with a different name then.

• 2:00:15Cameron Hanes?

  I know. Well, tell me how this makes sense to you. How can a 50K 31 miler be an ultra? And the Monster 300 be an ultra marathon? How are those both ultra marathons?

• 2:00:25Speaker 01

  Cause they're longer than 26.2 miles.

• 2:00:27Cameron Hanes?

  Come on. Once.

• 2:00:28Speaker 01

  They're not the same.

• 2:00:29Speaker 03

  One of them is just a wrong turn of a marathon.

• 2:00:32Speaker 01

  They're not the same.

• 2:00:34Cameron Hanes?

  They're definitely not the same.

• 2:00:37Speaker 01

  One's, uh.

• 2:00:39Cameron Hanes?

  One, you're home by lunch.

• 2:00:42Speaker 01

  Not for everybody.

• 2:00:43Cameron Hanes?

  I know, but in one year, you might not survive.

• 2:00:47Speaker 01

  Sorry, I couldn't handle it. I had to talk some trash there. He's home by like 3.

• 2:00:52Speaker 03

  I'm running through the night. I'm running through the night of my 50K.

• 2:00:55Cameron Hanes?

  He's early evening if it goes well.

• 2:01:00Speaker 03

  If I, if I cut the course.

• 2:01:01Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah. I, I just don't get how those are all the same thing.

• 2:01:05Speaker 01

  They're not. That's what, it's not the same. Just like 100 is not the same as a 200. We've been talking about that. It's not the same. Multi-day is not the same as a one night out.

• 2:01:15Cameron Hanes?

  I'm like, what is an ultra marathon? It's like, oh, well, it's anything from 31 miles to 100,000 miles. What?

• 2:01:24Speaker 01

  Yep. Ultra.

• 2:01:27Cameron Hanes?

  Ultra, yeah.

• 2:01:28Speaker 03

  This, uh, you guys were talking about.

• 2:01:30Speaker 01

  I'm so glad you gave me that question. I've been warning you. I've been yelling at the, at my, at my podcast every time I listen to it.

• 2:01:37Cameron Hanes?

  We're here for you.

• 2:01:38Speaker 01

  All right.

• 2:01:39Speaker 03

  Uh, you guys were talking about Cocodona. You said you're going back. You're hungry for the win. We had another guest on the podcast who's also hungry for the win, Killian Corth. What are your thoughts?

• 2:01:48Speaker 01

  Bring it, Killian. You better bring your A-game, boy.

• 2:01:51Cameron Hanes?

  How's he gonna win and you're gonna win?

• 2:01:52Speaker 01

  Oh, he's not gonna win.

• 2:01:54Cameron Hanes?

  Oh, okay.

• 2:01:55Speaker 03

  Ooh, so I like, that's a good promo right there.

• 2:01:58Cameron Hanes?

  Now, we're talking.

• 2:01:59Speaker 01

  Yeah, dude.

• 2:02:01Cameron Hanes?

  This is what we need, this sport, like Dylan Bowman's ruined this, like just being so positive and supportive of everybody. We gotta talk shit. Come on, Dylan.

• 2:02:12Speaker 01

  Well, I'll, I'll, I'll, I'll go back to, I, I've coached Mike McKnight for a long time.

• 2:02:17Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah. Oh, he's gonna win too.

• 2:02:19Speaker 01

  And when I signed, when I signed up for Cogadona, he goes, man, I'm so stoked to race you in a 200. I go, you better bring your A-game.

• 2:02:28Cameron Hanes?

  There you go. See? That's what I'm talking about. That's what we need right here.

• 2:02:32Speaker 03

  Yeah. Okay.

• 2:02:33Speaker 01

  Killian, you better bring your A-game.

• 2:02:35Cameron Hanes?

  I love it. I love it.

• 2:02:37Speaker 03

  Obviously, you guys talked a lot about kind of that old school dirtbag mentality, but then you also touched on having access to a lot more data. And, you know, what comes with that nutrition and training? So how do you kind of blend those two worlds?

• 2:02:54Cameron Hanes?

  The dirtbag and the new science.

• 2:02:56Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 2:02:57Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah, like the, uh, what's his name?

• 2:02:59Speaker 01

  Well, we're dirtbagging it right now. We've been going all day and I'm sweaty and crap, dude.

• 2:03:03Cameron Hanes?

  Me too.

• 2:03:04Speaker 01

  I stink, but it's awesome.

• 2:03:06Cameron Hanes?

  I can smell my balls.

• 2:03:07Speaker 03

  I like it.

• 2:03:11Speaker 03

  We're losing it.

• 2:03:14Cameron Hanes?

  Now we're getting to shit talkers.

• 2:03:15Speaker 01

  Yeah, we are. This is gonna have to be a, it'd be a shit talkers outtake.

• 2:03:19Speaker 03

  Yeah. Okay.

• 2:03:23Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah, so yeah, the, the, what do you think? The new science, the carb heavy, 2,000 grams of carbs a hour?

• 2:03:32Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 2:03:32Cameron Hanes?

  A minute?

• 2:03:33Speaker 03

  Where do you draw that line where it's just time to kind of buckle down?

• 2:03:37Cameron Hanes?

  Swisher sweets is what I used to start with.

• 2:03:40Speaker 03

  Black and Milds.

• 2:03:42Cameron Hanes?

  So it's a little bit different.

• 2:03:44Speaker 01

  Uh, I don't know how you, well, the blend, I mean, I think.

• 2:03:50Speaker 01

  I think we, I think the dirtbag thing is still there.

• 2:03:55Cameron Hanes?

  Okay.

• 2:03:55Speaker 01

  I do. I think, you know, sleeping in the dirt and showing up at a trailhead and sleeping in your car. I think that's still there. It's not as, it's not as prevalent as it used to be. But I think, I think the, the underlying heart is still there. And I think that's one of the things I'm interested in like,

• 2:04:18Speaker 01

  keeping that heartbeat alive.

• 2:04:20Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 2:04:20Speaker 01

  You know, just by telling stories and like we're doing right now. Like I think, I think that part of the sport is a key part of our sport.

• 2:04:27Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah. I, my, Courtney was, said she'd do it, but I was, my ultimate adventure with her would be, I said, can we like take, I can take a tent, we can take whatever, do like a couple of 14ers, uh, camp on top of one and then have coffee in the morning and then just finish the route and do a couple more for, like, can you come up with something like this multi, like at least a night? And she's like, I said, would you do that? She's like, yeah, I'd love to do that. That as a film, dude, dude, that would blow up. That's the

• 2:05:02Speaker 01

  That's a cool idea.

• 2:05:02Cameron Hanes?

  That's just the, the sharing, the adventure and just, because it's all, the, all this is, is love of the mountains.

• 2:05:10Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:05:11Cameron Hanes?

  How better to capture truly just loving the mountains than just being there, waking up top of a 14,000 foot peak, drinking coffee, sunrise?

• 2:05:20Speaker 01

  Yeah. I'm down.

• 2:05:23Cameron Hanes?

  Come on, come, come on. Let's do it to me.

• 2:05:27Speaker 01

  Do giddy up. Let's do it.

• 2:05:28Cameron Hanes?

  That's adventure, baby. That's what I'm talking about, but.

• 2:05:32Speaker 03

  Okay. Final, final question, kind of along those lines of telling stories. A similar culture in sport. George, I know you're tapped into this, but climbing, that's a, a huge, had this kind of dirtbag culture. And then it became professionalized. People started making money and we had the film Free Solo come to theaters and it kind of brought climbing to the mainstream, um, which some people could argue there's negatives that came from that, but ultimately for the industry was a positive. What do you think could be ultra runnings Free Solo?

• 2:06:07Speaker 01

  TBD.

• 2:06:10Cameron Hanes?

  What's that?

• 2:06:10Speaker 01

  Means to be determined. We haven't had that film yet.

• 2:06:14Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 2:06:16Speaker 01

  Because it has to come together with a specific something, project.

• 2:06:21Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah, like free, free soloing El Cap?

• 2:06:24Speaker 01

  Yeah, I mean, come on, and he did it.

• 2:06:26Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 2:06:27Speaker 01

  Right? And you got it on film.

• 2:06:28Cameron Hanes?

  And he didn't die.

• 2:06:29Speaker 01

  And he could die at any minute. Like, I think that, like, we haven't had that yet. I think there's tons of potential. I don't know what, what that quote project is.

• 2:06:40Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 2:06:41Speaker 01

  It has to be something cool and big.

• 2:06:43Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 2:06:44Speaker 01

  And, and you have to capture it in the right way.

• 2:06:47Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 2:06:48Cameron Hanes?

  And Jimmy Chin, not too bad at filmmaking.

• 2:06:51Speaker 03

  He's okay.

• 2:06:52Cameron Hanes?

  I mean, he's, you taught him, is it, wasn't he your apprentice, James?

• 2:06:56Speaker 03

  Yeah, yeah, he was. And, and then, you know, he just got a big ego, so I was like, dude.

• 2:07:02Speaker 01

  You're fired.

• 2:07:03Speaker 03

  He thought he was better than me, so.

• 2:07:04Cameron Hanes?

  When those young guys get, you know.

• 2:07:07Speaker 03

  That's disappointing.

• 2:07:07Cameron Hanes?

  It is. It's sad.

• 2:07:09Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 2:07:09Speaker 01

  I think there's a potential there, though.

• 2:07:11Cameron Hanes?

  Mm hmm.

• 2:07:12Speaker 01

  And, and the more films get, you know, supported in ultra running, and the more filmmakers that, you know, keep doing stuff and, and pushing the envelope out there.

• 2:07:23Cameron Hanes?

  Creative, just getting better creatively, yeah.

• 2:07:25Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, I think it's gonna be amazing. And when it comes out, when that film comes out that's that big.

• 2:07:31Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah. Yeah, I know, that's what I want.

• 2:07:35Speaker 01

  We need some Netflix films, man.

• 2:07:37Cameron Hanes?

  Exactly.

• 2:07:38Speaker 01

  Like ultra running Netflix films.

• 2:07:40Cameron Hanes?

  Oh, man, that'd be so sick. Yeah.

• 2:07:42Speaker 01

  Like stuff that people would be like, I'm looking at documentaries. I just did this flying here. I'm like, looking at documentaries and I'm like, oh, man, what should I download?

• 2:07:49Cameron Hanes?

  Well, just like, yeah, just what I, what I, the adventure I just explained, or the one I talked about with Cat Bradley over there in, uh,

• 2:07:58Cameron Hanes?

  where was that? What island was that?

• 2:07:59Speaker 03

  Oahu.

• 2:07:59Cameron Hanes?

  Oahu, yeah, those, there's two, two on the series.

• 2:08:03Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:08:04Cameron Hanes?

  Two Netflix episodes right there.

• 2:08:06Speaker 03

  They're, they're doing one on my next 50K, actually, so.

• 2:08:09Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah, it's, because it's a first multi-day 50K.

• 2:08:15Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 2:08:18Speaker 03

  50K free solo. It's self-supported, believe it or not.

• 2:08:22Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah, cuz they're gonna, every, the race organizer's gonna be home for...

• 2:08:28Speaker 03

  Is he still out there?

• 2:08:32Cameron Hanes?

  So it has to be a free solo, unsupported.

• 2:08:35Speaker 03

  Yeah, and I won't be roped up, so.

• 2:08:37Cameron Hanes?

  Wow, impressive. Okay, well Dylan had a good question. George, you have anything over there? Do you have anything you wanna ask us before we close this thing out?

• 2:08:50Cameron Hanes?

  I know, on the spot, sorry.

• 2:08:52Speaker 04

  No, it's alright, it's alright, it's alright. I'm gonna stick with the filmmaking for a question here, right? So, Free Solo we talked about, right? I think another fantastic film that really like brought people that had nothing to do with the subculture into the subculture was Dogtown and Z-Boys. I don't know if you guys ever saw Stacy Peralta's film about skateboarding and kind of the birth of skateboarding?

• 2:09:14Cameron Hanes?

  I think I did.

• 2:09:15Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 2:09:16Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 2:09:17Speaker 01

  I wanna re-watch it cuz you've been talking about on this trip and I'm like, I need to sit down and watch that again. I watched it a long, long time ago.

• 2:09:23Cameron Hanes?

  So are you saying that that like propelled skateboarding?

• 2:09:27Speaker 04

  Uh, no, I think what it did was it helped people who have nothing to do with skateboarding

• 2:09:32Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 2:09:32Speaker 04

  like actually feel on an emotional level and understand who, what, where, why this happened.

• 2:09:39Cameron Hanes?

  So are you saying ultra-running hasn't had that type of storytelling?

• 2:09:42Speaker 04

  Exactly.

• 2:09:43Cameron Hanes?

  Okay.

• 2:09:43Speaker 04

  Every time we tell films, we tell them too much inside baseball.

• 2:09:48Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah, I get that.

• 2:09:49Speaker 04

  So like, like I guess as a question to you guys is, what is it gonna take to help someone who knows shit about running understand what it is that we do?

• 2:10:03Cameron Hanes?

  Man, somehow, I mean, I think, so it's those moments like I just talked about with Jeff, being so honest about... You know, not what he wanted, what he needed. It's just that up and down. It's the suffering, the, the success, the win, the loss, the, it's that. Somehow capturing that roller, you stuck on that ridge in the lightning storm.

• 2:10:27Cameron Hanes?

  It's somehow capturing those moments. That's really hard because the skateboarding is at the skate park. It's more controlled. When we're talking in the mountains, it's so unpredictable and you don't know when those moments are going to happen. So that's a challenge. So we just have to figure out a way to film basically every second of a multi-day race. I, I don't know how else to do it.

• 2:10:49Speaker 01

  I mean, yeah, right. Cause you're not, otherwise it's aid stations.

• 2:10:52Cameron Hanes?

  You just don't know. You don't know when that's going to happen. You don't know when you're going to fall and you know, there's blood coming down. Blood is a super like adds everything. You gotta get blood in there, but you don't know when that's going to happen.

• 2:11:04Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:11:05Cameron Hanes?

  You know, Courtney has that she fell at, uh, or yeah, whatever. She went blind or something and fell and had that picture. There's blood here.

• 2:11:14Speaker 01

  Right.

• 2:11:15Cameron Hanes?

  Got to have that. How do you get that? You have to be out there, you know? So it's just, that's the challenge of, of a 250 mile multi-day race is, is tough to be out there every second. But that's what it takes.

• 2:11:26Speaker 01

  Yeah, we'd have to have like a giant team of filmers like following the characters.

• 2:11:31Cameron Hanes?

  But if we want that, that's what it's going to take. So the Nike, you got your holy shirts. Let's get some money out there. Come on.

• 2:11:39Speaker 04

  J C do the editing.

• 2:11:44Speaker 03

  And camel won it turned around in two weeks.

• 2:11:48Cameron Hanes?

  Why two? What are you doing? What's wrong with next week?

• 2:11:55Cameron Hanes?

  But yeah, well, that was anything else? We got anything else? I thought that was awesome. I love the discussion.

• 2:12:00Speaker 01

  I had a great day.

• 2:12:01Cameron Hanes?

  I love the, I love the day, the lift, run, shoot. I love, I mean, this is, I've been on a high all day from this.

• 2:12:08Speaker 01

  Well, thank you, man. It was been, you've been a great host.

• 2:12:11Cameron Hanes?

  Ah.

• 2:12:11Speaker 01

  Dude, it's so fun.

• 2:12:12Cameron Hanes?

  Love it. I love it. Um, so thank you. Thank you for making the trip down with the crew. It's great hanging out with everybody. I appreciate you.

• 2:12:20Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:12:21Cameron Hanes?

  You're a badass.

• 2:12:22Speaker 01

  Kitty up.

• 2:12:22Cameron Hanes?

  Yep. Thank you. Keep hammering, guys.