Advice Line with Ben Goodwin of Olipop

Today’s callers: Darin from North Carolina seeks guidance on consumer education as his ghee-based snack brand grows into major retailers. Then Sarah from Massachusetts explores scaling pathways for her ‘never-frozen’ gluten-free baked goods. And John from Ohio considers whether online sales can turn around his local food co-op. Plus, Ben comments on the drivers of Olipop’s nearly $2 billion valuation, and critiques a common piece of business advice that often holds founders back. Thank you to the founders of Gheelish, Sarah’s Gluten Free Goods, and Bexley’s Natural Foods for being a part of our show. If you’d like to be featured on a future Advice Line episode—where Guy and former show guests take questions from early-stage founders—leave us a one-minute message that tells us about your business and a specific question you’d like answered. Send a voice memo to [email protected] or call 1-800-433-1298. And be sure to listen to Olipop’s founding story https://rss.art19.com/episodes/14342273-8d67-46d8-a59f-3bba347f5c72.mp3 as told by Ben in 2024. This episode was produced by Kerry Thompson with music by Ramtin Arablouei. It was edited by John Isabella. Our audio engineers were Cena Loffredo and Robert Rodriguez. You can follow HIBT on X https://x.com/HowIBuiltThis & Instagram https://www.instagram.com/howibuiltthis/ and sign up for Guy’s free newsletter at guyraz.com http://guyraz.com/ or on Substack https://guyraz.substack.com/. See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Guy Raz?

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• 4:38Guy Raz?

  Hello and welcome to the Advice Line on How I Built This Lab. I'm Guy Raz. This is the place where we help try to solve your business challenges. Each week, I'm joined by a legendary founder, a former guest on this show, who will help me try to help you. And if you're building something and you need advice, give us a call and you just might be the next guest on the show. Our number is 1-800-433-1298. Leave us a one-minute message that tells us about your business and the issues or questions that you'd like help with. All right, let's get to it. Joining me this week is Ben Goodwin, co-founder of the prebiotic soda brand Olipop. Ben, it's great to have you back on the show.

• 5:15Speaker 01

  Guy, absolutely a thrill to be back with you again.

• 5:18Guy Raz?

  So Ben, you were first on the show not that long ago, 2024, when you told the story of Olipop, of course. And you spent years developing a completely different soda brand that you then had to walk away from with very little in return. But you eventually, after much struggle, rebounded from that experience and created Olipop, a brand that is, it's so hard, it's amazing. It's now valued at over $2 billion, maybe more. That was the last I saw, which was last year. It is such a great story. And as always, for those of you who have not heard that episode, we will put a link to it in the show notes. So please do listen to Ben's episode if you haven't heard it, the story of Olipop. It is so good. Ben, before we get to today's callers, just a couple of questions for you. You guys just launched a kind of a rebrand, right?

• 6:03Guy Raz?

  Like a refreshed packaging and an national ad campaign? Tell me about the thinking behind that.

• 6:08Speaker 01

  Yeah, no, thanks for noticing, Guy. Look, I think that, you know, if I reflect on where Olipop's been, stronger and weaker since its inception, I think we've always been a really great pull brand. And a lot of that is, you know, the kind of original packaging and brand ethos. And then there's a great tasting product that, once you tried it, it kind of was a delight how good it actually tasted. And that kept people coming back and that made people want to give it to their kids. And so that's been amazing for us because it's created a really, really strong foundation. That being said, it's always been a, like, a really significant goal of mine

• 6:48Speaker 01

  to take the layers of our, our brand mission and to kind of competently translate them to the consumer, which I had never really felt satisfied with the level at which we'd done that prior. And so we have a new refresh to the, the visual identity, which speaks to all the layers of benefits you get out of Olipop, a new sonic identity, which I'm really, really proud of, and a new fiber education campaign. And I, you know, I'm really happy with how the early traction is going. We're reaching men at a higher rate. We're reaching older demos at a higher rate. It's the most effective advertising we've put out today.

• 7:26Guy Raz?

  And correct me if I'm wrong, I think you guys are an entirely remote distributed organization, right?

• 7:32Speaker 01

  Yep, that's right.

• 7:33Guy Raz?

  You don't even have a central office?

• 7:35Speaker 01

  No, we don't. I mean, you know, David and I, when we first started the company, kind of were a little loathe to commute or to force you to commute. And then, you know, you get this logical push from your investors, hey, you could really use an office. And then COVID hit and, you know, we spent about a year and a half or two years or whatever it was, learning how to create a remote culture that could really thrive. And then, once we had that rolling, there never really seemed to be a good reason to revert.

• 8:02Guy Raz?

  It's really remarkable. I mean, given your, your sort of the valuation of the company and, you know, your, your sales figures, and I suspect, I think you run a pretty lean team, right? I mean, how many overall employees do you have?

• 8:15Speaker 01

  So yeah, we're sitting at about 280 right now. And, you know, we might have closer to 300 end of this year, Q1 of next year.

• 8:26Guy Raz?

  So Ben, as you know, of course, last year PepsiCo acquired one of your biggest competitors, Poppy. We also told that story on the show. And I, I suspect that was a very good day in many ways for, for Olipop. Because, I mean, when all was said and done with, with tax credits and so on, it was almost a $2 billion acquisition.

• 8:43Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 8:43Guy Raz?

  And again, I suspect that there were a lot of smiles in, around Olipop because of what it could mean for you in the future. I mean, tell me about, about the vision for the future of the company. I mean, you know, I think most minds are like, oh, well, then Coca-Cola may, or another, you know, Keurig or some other big brand is going to want to acquire you for even more down the road.

• 9:05Speaker 01

  Yeah, look, let's find out. I, my, and you know, look, I say this and it's not coming from a place of coyness. Look, I think one of the things that's made Olly Pop have the level of success it has is the way that we really hold the, the impact of the mission as the North Star of the business. And so no matter what checks or opportunities show up, I don't want to live in a world where five, 10 years from now, I'm staring at a product that's been delisted, or it's been cratered out to the point where it's no longer providing value. For me, it's, it's like dead serious that we're providing real value to all those people who need the health benefit. I mean, we just published our first piece of human research on, uh, blood sugar stability. Um, and we found that, you know, in that

• 9:50Speaker 01

  research, Olly Pop didn't spike people's blood sugar, kept their blood sugar stable. We were studying the vintage cola in that one.

• 9:55Guy Raz?

  Yeah. You're using stevia and, and like-

• 9:57Speaker 01

  Small amounts of, of real fruit juice. So it's less, it's five grams or less sugar per can. So anyway, those things are always going to be really, really important to me.

• 10:04Guy Raz?

  Yeah.

• 10:05Speaker 01

  Now, I mean, my target right now in my head is, okay, I need to get to a billion dollars gross revenue. Uh, we're well over a half billion and we're chugging towards that line. And as long as we perform well and run a great business, uh, we'll have, there's the public path, there's the acquisition path, and then there's all sorts of weird paths in between. So unless you get a distribution deal and you still go public anyway, and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.

• 10:28Guy Raz?

  Yeah. Ben, I'm curious, and you may not have an answer for this right away, but what's like a widely accepted piece of business advice that you, that you've gotten over the years that, that actually is completely wrong? Or maybe in your case, it was wrong?

• 10:46Speaker 01

  You know, I think that oftentimes, and this is, like, I think that people who are hardwired to be entrepreneurs will buck this kind of anyway. But I think, you know, anytime I hear the quote, something's market, you know, it's like a, and everyone kind of goes, oh, this is kind of what you need to learn how to accept. And I'm kind of like, that, the second you tell me that something is market is the second I know that we have to do better than that. So whether it's like terms that you're looking at, or, you know, either with investors, or with, I don't know, some distribution partners, or just anything where you're, you're compromising your standards, you compromise your integrity, or you're compromising quality, and somehow that's considered a part of the Faustian bargain

• 11:31Speaker 01

  that you just need to wrap your head around, you know, I always thoroughly reject that.

• 11:34Guy Raz?

  Fair enough. Fair enough. All right. Uh, Ben, ready to take our first call?

• 11:37Speaker 01

  I'm stoked.

• 11:38Guy Raz?

  All right. Let's bring in our first caller. Welcome to the advice line. You're on with Ben Goodwin, co-founder of Olly Pop. Please tell us your name, where you're calling from, and just a brief line about your business.

• 11:48Speaker 02

  Uh, yeah. Thanks for having me, Ben and Guy. Great to meet you both. I'm Darren Alpert. I'm based in Raleigh, North Carolina, and I'm the founder and CEO of Ghee Lish. Uh, we're a snack brand that's made with organic ghee and got into about 4,000 stores in two years.

• 12:01Guy Raz?

  Wow. So, uh, welcome to the show, Darren. So, so Ghee Lish, snack brands made from ghee, the clarified butter, of course, right? So what, what kind of snack foods are you making?

• 12:10Speaker 02

  Yeah. So we started with, uh, three SKUs of organic popcorn. Um, and then we launched a, our version of a pop chip slash popcorner. Um, and then we've got a sweet snack that's going to come out in the fall.

• 12:22Guy Raz?

  Amazing. So tell me a little bit about, um, about the business. When did you start it?

• 12:26Speaker 02

  Yeah. So I had the concept about three years ago. Um, we, my wife and I made samples in our kitchen. I cold emailed Sprouts, uh, got a meeting with their innovation team, uh, brought them samples that my wife and I made, uh, and then six months later, we got on shelves. Uh, so we went straight from my kitchen to Sprouts nationwide.

• 12:44Speaker 01

  Wow.

• 12:45Guy Raz?

  And, and so, so good, so ghee, I can understand because it's delicious and buttery. I mean, tell me why you wanted to build a, a brand around ghee?

• 12:53Speaker 02

  Yeah. Yeah. Great question. First of all, no one else had.

• 12:56Guy Raz?

  Right. There's avocado oils and things like that, but yes.

• 12:59Speaker 01

  Uh, lesser evil, I think, is one ghee SKU, but nobody who's ground up ghee.

• 13:04Guy Raz?

  Right.

• 13:05Speaker 02

  So that logic is exactly why I did what I did. Um, I thought that was a platform that we could make similar to like cauliflower, or Bonza, or hippies, or truff. Take an ingredient and make a platform out of it.

• 13:15Guy Raz?

  And, and how did, did you raise money to launch the brand?

• 13:19Speaker 02

  Um, initially, no. I mean, I, I literally launched the whole thing with 250,000 credit card points and $50 in ingredients from my, from the store. Um, it's kind of like Ben's SodaStream deal. And, um, yeah, I got the green light from Sprouts and then I went out and raised money. So I cold emailed Gary Vaynerchuk. He's one of our lead investors.

• 13:38Guy Raz?

  Wow.

• 13:39Speaker 02

  Yeah, it was incredible. And then I went out and raised money from friends and family as well, too.

• 13:42Guy Raz?

  And tell, tell us briefly, how is the business doing? Where, where do you expect to, to net out this year in terms of sales, gross sales?

• 13:50Speaker 02

  So last year was our first full year, which is 2025. We did about 1.8 million last year.

• 13:54Guy Raz?

  Wow.

• 13:55Speaker 02

  All wholesale, no D to C, no Amazon. We still don't do those. Um, this year we'll finish about three and a half million.

• 14:01Guy Raz?

  Incredible. Okay. Before we dive in further, what is your question, uh, for, for me and Ben?

• 14:06Speaker 02

  Yeah. So just like you let off, Guy, you, you had to clarify, no joke, no pun intended, what clarified butter is. Ben, I, I've got so much respect for what you've built. You have talked about the Trojan horse strategy with soda to bypass kind of the education hurdle of prebiotics. We're doing the same thing with chips and popcorn as a form factor, but people aren't that familiar with ghee slash clarified butter. I, I would love to hear any tactical advice to help us educate people on ghee, since they've typically only seen it in a jar and it looks kind of weird in the jar.

• 14:36Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 14:36Guy Raz?

  All right. Ben Goodwin, before you can answer the question, or you can ask more questions, uh, for Darren, either way, but take it away.

• 14:43Speaker 01

  Yeah. No, awesome. Well, first of all, Darren, congrats on the growth, right? The hardcore bootstrapping, getting Sprouts locked and then raising capital after you had that, you had your kind of product together. I'm sure did at least minor wonders for your valuation going in. So, um, that's, that's a really good, a really intelligent strategy. And, uh, yeah, I mean, also for what it's worth, I mean, 90% of my cooking at home, I use ghee. I'm a huge-

• 15:10Speaker 02

  Love it.

• 15:10Speaker 01

  A huge fan of ghee. And yeah, it's kind of, I didn't like that, this isn't necessarily the, the track you want to go down, but I, you know, I am really fascinated by kind of its Ayurvedic history, not, you know, for, for balancing, but also, uh, its utilization as like a high absorption carrier. It almost acts as like a liposomal agent for nutrients.

• 15:29Speaker 02

  My brother in, in nerd of ingredients. I love it, man.

• 15:32Speaker 01

  Yes, right. Yeah. So I mean, I, I guess I'm just curious. Look, obviously you've got some really great traction. It sounds like it's mostly in the natural channel. Yeah?

• 15:40Speaker 02

  Uh, yes and no. So we've got pretty close to a green light with one of the big, uh, club stores as a regional test. But yeah, you're right, though. The majority of it is all through, through natural for the most part.

• 15:51Speaker 01

  Current sales.

• 15:52Speaker 02

  Currently, yeah.

• 15:53Speaker 01

  Yeah. Are you getting any other feedback other than we just don't have enough awareness of the value of this particular ingredient?

• 16:03Speaker 02

  Well, it's kind of just in my own head. It's like, you look at Skinny Pop and you look at Smart Food and, and obviously lesser evil, but like Skinny Pop and Smart Food do about a billion dollars combined just in those brands. And we're 30% less calories, 60% less fat than Skinny Pop, and we're organic. So like, there's a lot of reasons to switch.

• 16:23Speaker 01

  Is that front and center on, not versus Skinny Pop, but is-

• 16:27Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 16:27Speaker 01

  The kind of, the reason why I ask is because you have to think about the order of operations of consumer motivation. So you'll typically get kind of price at the top-ish, but that's always like a value to dollar ratio. And so that kind of goes to the side. You know, it's about the argument that sits underneath price. So then, you know, number one's always taste.

• 16:50Speaker 02

  Yep.

• 16:51Speaker 01

  Right? So if you quote blind taste test against all your major competition, especially in your price point, are you coming out on top? If you basically aren't getting a yes, then the structural argument behind the product is going to be borderline irrelevant. Um, then, you know, especially at the mainstream level, specific ingredient nuances can be a little challenging to communicate because attention spans are so short. So the structure of less fat, less calories, but tastes better than, and then, you know, simple like broad strokes, like all real ingredients and yada, yada, yada. That would, in my, I would say

• 17:34Speaker 01

  like, it's a little generic, but if your packaging looks good enough, but that would be my starting place, especially when you're looking to go outside of natural.

• 17:43Guy Raz?

  Yeah. Ben, I, I have a question for you. I mean, I, I think that there are plenty of people who will buy Olly Pop because they like the prebiotic side of it. But I think, and I think you're, you're implying this, most people buy it just because it's a, a good tasting soda, but it doesn't have, you know, 35 grams of sugar like a can of Coke, right? And so the ghee side is great.

• 18:02Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 18:02Guy Raz?

  But I wonder whether it even matters that you emphasize that. In other words, if it tastes great and it has, you know, far fewer calories and far, far lower fat content than the leading brands, like that's really interesting. I don't see that on your packaging. I see fiber, which is great.

• 18:17Speaker 02

  Yep.

• 18:17Guy Raz?

  But if it, if it just tastes great and it's a great alternative, you're not thinking, oh, man, I wish I had Skinny Pop, you're thinking, this is amazing. And it's even, you know, that to me is where you have the opportunity and not necessarily in educating people about ghee, right? Does that, but Ben, would you agree with that?

• 18:33Speaker 01

  I mean, so I, I think at a broad strokes level, that's right. I still would ensure that you find a great avenue to tell the deeper, richer story. So it's, that's the, you know, people do like a good bootstrap entrepreneur story. Uh, I do think there's interesting dynamics in terms of ghee's historical relevance to, you know, a culture and a, and a medical discipline. And I also think that, look, fat is a major transporter of flavor, right? I mean, you've also got the culinary arguments. I think for your broad, for your broad consumer base, I think it's really, it's, I think what Guy just articulated is bang on. It's, you know, does this taste really fantastic, especially at a premium

• 19:18Speaker 01

  price point? Then it's bullet points right on the front of the pack around comparative nutrient compositions and how your product is superior. And then figure out the other avenues for the stories that are, that's deeper, but that's for your evangelist consumer, who they're an important part of your community, but- It can go a little deeper in so that it's it's less front and center and you get faster absorption rate from your emergent consumers.

• 19:49Guy Raz?

  And maybe it's something you put on the back of the bag, right? For people who are, or you've got QR codes or you use social media to create videos. What is Ghee? Why do people use Ghee? What are the benefits of Ghee? You know, why does popcorn taste or snacks taste better made with Ghee? You know, that's really where you, you, you can start to tell the story. But you've got a great product. You're doing, I mean, your, your, you know, your velocity is terrific. So

• 20:11Speaker 01

  Yeah, you're off to an amazing start.

• 20:13Guy Raz?

  Yeah.

• 20:13Speaker 01

  So

• 20:13Guy Raz?

  Appreciate it. Thank you. And it's, it's a tough, tough space, snack foods. It's a really tough space. So that's, that's exciting. Darren, thank you so much for calling in. The brand is called Ghee Lish, G H E E L I S H. Good luck.

• 20:27Speaker 01

  Best of luck, man.

• 20:28Guy Raz?

  Thank you both.

• 20:28Speaker 01

  Yeah, of course.

• 20:29Guy Raz?

  Thank you. It's a tough category and we know that because we've, you know, we've done a lot of snack brands on the show.

• 20:34Speaker 01

  Yeah. Switching behavior in snacks is, is tough.

• 20:37Guy Raz?

  But if you can get it right and if you can get the product, you know, make a delicious product that is, you know, I hesitate to use the term better for you because everyone uses it. But if it is or can be perceived to be better for you, that's, that's, you know, that's gold. We're going to take a quick break, but when we come back, another caller, another question and another round of advice. I'm Guy Raz. Stick around. You're listening to the advice line on how I built this lab. Starting a small business is the fun part. Running one? That's where it gets complicated because all of a sudden you're hiring people and you've got to pay them on time and figure out benefits. And nobody handed you a manual for any of it.

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• 25:35Guy Raz?

  Rules and restrictions may apply. Welcome back to the advice line on how I built this lab. I'm Guy Raz and my guest today is Ben Goodwin, co-founder of Ollie Pop. And Ben, are you ready for our next call?

• 25:54Speaker 01

  I very much am.

• 25:56Guy Raz?

  All right, let's bring in our next caller. Welcome to the advice line. Please tell us your name, where you're calling from and just a little bit about your business.

• 26:03Speaker 03

  Hi Guy, I'm Ben. Thank you so much for having me on today. My name is Sarah Godfrey and I am the owner of Sarah's Gluten Free Goods. I specialize in gluten free desserts that actually taste good and also cater to other food allergies such as dairy, nut, corn and oat allergies.

• 26:18Guy Raz?

  Awesome. Where are you located?

• 26:19Speaker 03

  I'm right in Westfield, Massachusetts, close to Springfield.

• 26:22Guy Raz?

  Got it. Okay, got it. Well, welcome to the show. Thanks for calling in. Okay, so you're making a line of gluten free baked goods. Do you have a bakery? Is that where you're selling them?

• 26:30Speaker 03

  So I actually have a cottage food permit, so I'm allowed to cook out of my home, which is a really unique opportunity because I don't have to have all that money upfront to have a commercial kitchen and all that kind of stuff.

• 26:43Guy Raz?

  So, so where are you selling your baked goods?

• 26:46Speaker 03

  So right now I do three local farmers markets and I also have my stuff in two or three local small grocery stores as well.

• 26:55Guy Raz?

  Got it. Okay. And so gluten free, a lot of gluten free products out there, but

• 26:59Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 27:00Guy Raz?

  What is, tell me about why you went into this, why yours are different. I'm assuming you are yourself gluten free.

• 27:06Speaker 03

  I am indeed, which is funny to me when I'm at farmers markets and people are like, you're gluten free too? And I'm like, yes, I am.

• 27:12Speaker 01

  There are many of us.

• 27:14Speaker 03

  I know that somebody the other day said that there's a minuscule amount of people that have gluten and dairy allergies in the world. And I was like, well, nothing has made me more angry and want to do more good with my company than somebody saying there's a minuscule amount of people out there.

• 27:28Speaker 01

  Oh my God. By the way, I could, I could just, I could talk, we won't do it, I promise. But I could talk about why the rate of gluten and general food allergies have gone up precipitously since the seventies. Spoiler, it has a lot to do with the microbiome.

• 27:42Speaker 03

  Of course. Yeah, yeah.

• 27:44Speaker 01

  That's for another day.

• 27:45Speaker 03

  Yeah, yeah, yeah. So I think the, the difference for my company is that it's not frozen, first of all. Everything is fresh. So when I go to a farmer's market, people ask me, did you bake all of this yourself? I say, absolutely. I baked it all yesterday in a local facility that is completely safe for multiple allergies such as nut, dairy and gluten.

• 28:06Guy Raz?

  Done. Okay. Before we dive in further into, oh yes, briefly, tell me how, you know, roughly what do you, what do you do in sales a year? I mean, or, you know, what do you expect to do?

• 28:15Speaker 03

  So I've only been open for about a year. Last year, my net profit was negative $2,000. And this year

• 28:23Speaker 01

  Good start. The fact that you know net versus gross, you're actually

• 28:28Speaker 03

  I learned it from this show, so thank you so much. I know so much.

• 28:31Speaker 01

  Oh wow, look at you, good.

• 28:33Speaker 03

  So this year I'm expecting to do about $20,000 in net profit.

• 28:38Guy Raz?

  Oh, fantastic. Okay, that's great. Um, all right. Before we dive in further, what's your question for us?

• 28:42Speaker 03

  So my question is that I'm really sort of harping on the fact that I want my goods to be fresh, never frozen, and available for people in my local area, if not more. And I find that as a consumer of gluten free goods, everything I buy is mostly in the freezer section. And if I want something fresh in the grocery store, it's made by the grocery store bakers. And there's a caveat on the label that says, may contain wheat, nuts, stuff like that. So I personally could never eat that because it's not safe for me. So I'm wondering, how can I provide that for my community when there is that issue of perishability and how long it'll last on the shelf?

• 29:21Guy Raz?

  All right. So how do you, how do you start to sell fresh stuff that's not shelf stable and not necessarily frozen? Okay. Ben Goodwin, I want to bring you in. You've already said hello to Sarah, but say hello again.

• 29:32Speaker 01

  Hey Sarah.

• 29:33Speaker 03

  Hello again.

• 29:33Speaker 01

  Yeah, hi. How many, is this a one woman show?

• 29:38Speaker 03

  It sure is. My wonderful husband is doing a farmer's market for me right now though, so he is amazing.

• 29:44Speaker 01

  Okay. So what the one, the 1.5, got it. Uh, yeah. I guess the main question I kind of have is every pathway from here, unless you get really lucky with, you know, a network that you're connected into, is probably going to require some additional money.

• 30:02Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 30:03Speaker 01

  So have you thought about that? And then do you have a sense of your kind of risk tolerance for raising, either raising capital and, you know,

• 30:16Speaker 01

  The challenge, obviously, with taking money is you need to then show some sort of scale and you need to show the ability to return.

• 30:21Speaker 03

  Right.

• 30:21Speaker 01

  The alternative to raising equity is to raise debt, but then the debt's going to be secured against your assets, which might not be super exciting. So have you thought about if you need a capital scale, how you'd approach it?

• 30:35Speaker 03

  So I definitely have thought about it. And I would say that just in a personal, I am debt averse because I'm have been debt free. I did a personal debt free program, so my brain is already a little bit averse to it. And just hearing-

• 30:50Speaker 01

  Me, me too. I hate, I debt free and like refuse.

• 30:54Speaker 03

  So, and one of the amazing opportunities I had, which is sort of like stuck in my head, is I had the opportunity to do a local grant program for small businesses in my town. And I ended up getting a $3,500 stipend for my business. And that allowed me to have somebody help me with my website. So I'm wondering, a lot of people have talked to me about the ability to maybe get grants to start my own allergen commercial kitchen. And I'm wondering if there's a way for me to go that path instead of having investors in debt.

• 31:25Guy Raz?

  I want to jump in for a sec. And, and I'm going to take a counter argument here, which is I think, I think you're really far away from raising money. You're, you're too small. You've got to show traction and velocity. And then it's not to criticize you at all.

• 31:38Speaker 03

  Of course.

• 31:39Guy Raz?

  It's actually to, to sort of put a reality check on this and say, you have a lot of work and opportunities-

• 31:46Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 31:47Guy Raz?

  -before you even go down that path. Now, it's not to say you, you, you don't have to, but I, I'm thinking of like, we did Bobo's, the Bobo's oat bars on the show several months ago. And, you know, she started by, by making oat bars and selling them to a coffee shop in Boulder and then, and then two, and then five. And I wonder, even before you move into a commercial kitchen, can you start to kind of become the bakery behind other businesses like Bobo's did? Like, could you, could you go to coffee shops that you like or, or small co-op stores, you know, independent cafes and say, hey, can I drop off, you know, gluten free blondies or, or cinnamon bread or, you know, not 20 different things, like-

• 32:30Speaker 03

  Right.

• 32:30Guy Raz?

  -like chocolate muffins, like they're best sellers. Can I drop these off, you know, and maybe we can start a, a relationship that way?

• 32:39Speaker 03

  Yeah. So what I have right now is I have three local shops where I drop off a small batch of things every Tuesday. And they take a 10% commission, but I get to decide what I bring. So, so there's not a lot of leftover product and I can sort of figure that out. I have tried a couple of coffee shops and what I'm finding, there's friction in that because they don't want the liability that if somebody has a nut allergy, that they might go after their business versus my business. And I'm not really sure how to get over that hurdle because I know it's okay, but it seems like the business owners don't want to take that risk of somebody saying it did have gluten in it or something like that.

• 33:22Speaker 01

  Sarah, how, how, what is your kind of excess capacity look like? You know, how much available additional time or energy do you have with your currency? Cause I think Guy's point is super correct.

• 33:39Speaker 01

  In the event that you can continue to generate more output with existing human and, you know, time resources.

• 33:46Speaker 03

  Yeah. So something, that's definitely something I've been thinking about because this year has, it's been incredible, the growth that I've had this year and the people, because I've been on local TV, local radio, in the newspaper, in a gluten free magazine.

• 33:59Speaker 01

  Amazing.

• 34:00Speaker 03

  And people are like coming and coming and coming. And I'm like, yes, I can do that. Yes, I can do this. And I'm, you know, up in, in bed late at night, like, oh my gosh, I'm one person. Like, how can I do this? And so I'm wondering when I take that next, next step to be able to have help, to be able to get it in more places. And I'm not sure if my role is in the kitchen as the baker, or if it's as the marketing person, because right now I'm all of it.

• 34:27Speaker 01

  Yeah, but you have, I, I assume you've got standardized recipes at this point for a base selection of products.

• 34:35Speaker 03

  Yes, absolutely. Yep.

• 34:36Speaker 01

  Okay. So you might be the one on the lead of creating any new products, but you could in theory hand your existing formulas off to staff.

• 34:43Speaker 03

  Yes, absolutely.

• 34:45Speaker 01

  Yeah. I mean, I, so, okay. So, sounds like you've picked up a bunch of work, but it's already the place where at least it's causing you emotional stress.

• 34:54Speaker 03

  It sure is.

• 34:55Speaker 01

  Okay. So, yeah, you're-

• 34:56Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 34:58Speaker 01

  Look, obviously you know this, the next logical step is what is, is something that was also part of Guy's feedback, which is the commercial kitchen.

• 35:05Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 35:05Speaker 01

  Right? But, and, and all, we did that at Ollie Pot. I mean, I was formulating in my kitchen.

• 35:11Speaker 03

  Yep.

• 35:11Speaker 01

  And we had a local commercial kitchen and we just grew more and more and more space. I have some very fond memories of that. But, you know, in this case, that cross contamination issue would be a challenge, you know, so-

• 35:24Speaker 03

  Well, and I've reached out to a couple of places and nobody is willing, and not, maybe I just haven't found the right person, but nobody wants to take that risk or have a specific space. So maybe about five people have said, why don't you be the one to start the commercial kitchen for people with allergies?

• 35:41Guy Raz?

  That's totally, yeah.

• 35:42Speaker 01

  Which would have been my-

• 35:43Speaker 03

  I love world domination, but like, how the heck do I start my own commercial kitchen?

• 35:48Speaker 01

  Money.

• 35:50Guy Raz?

  Yeah. But I think Sarah, right now, and you're selling at farmers markets, it mainly is you, right?

• 35:56Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 35:56Guy Raz?

  You are, the story is, we can trust this to be totally allergen free because-

• 36:02Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 36:03Guy Raz?

  -she is totally allergen free.

• 36:05Speaker 03

  Absolutely.

• 36:05Guy Raz?

  I mean, she, she has to eat that way. And so it's the trust factor that you bring into. One other thing I want to bring up, which is you are, you said you're reluctant to, to freeze products. And I wonder whether, and again, you'll, you know, you'll need to figure out how to, how to do this with a, a small amount of money, ideally a little bit more money.

• 36:24Speaker 03

  Right.

• 36:24Guy Raz?

  Can, I mean, you, you, surely you can freeze things like muffins or, you know, or, or blondies or, or, you know, things that could actually defrost pretty well, right? I mean, I mean, isn't that possible?

• 36:39Speaker 03

  Yes. So I find that the blondies and the muffins do well. The, the bread's not so much because of the moisture content in them. And I find that myself and the people I sell to, their eyes kind of light up a little bit when they realize that they can have something for breakfast, that they don't have to get out of the freezer section. Like I've heard feedback from people that they like that idea. So I'm so stuck on it and I wish I wasn't so stuck on it, but it's just, it's something that nags me all the time that like, I want to be different. I want to be different. But I wonder if that will be my downfall of, I want to be different, sort of thing.

• 37:17Speaker 01

  Yeah, for sure. I mean, again, if, if I think about your story, I would, if, I would really, because I've been at this inflection point a handful of times with things that started from zero, right? And, and I think you can get a little more squeeze out of the situation by, all right, are this people in the, the farmer's market or are this some friends that, you know, can be a combination of product and cash or some way to kind of stay within my means to just eke a bit more out. I, I would really try to have an honest conversation with yourself, between you and your husband around, all right, how much more can I squeeze out of this super, you know, super bootstrapped?

• 37:56Speaker 03

  Right.

• 37:57Speaker 01

  And at what point do I need a bit more cash in order to, you know, because, for example, thinking of my, my friends over at Original Sunshine, they did just build their own facility.

• 38:06Speaker 03

  I got you.

• 38:07Speaker 01

  And that was, allowed them the quality control, they kept it free from allergens. They happened to be lucky enough to have connectivity to somebody who had some space. So that was useful.

• 38:16Speaker 03

  Yep.

• 38:17Speaker 01

  But I think you're probably, you probably are going to have to cross that hurdle. Grants, do a grant all day, but 3,500, you need tens of thousands, right?

• 38:26Speaker 03

  No, I know. 3,500 went so fast.

• 38:28Speaker 01

  You need like a hundred thousand dollars, not like, you know, 3,500. So, so I, I, I agree with Guy that, you know, raising, first of all, raising equity is really complicated and it's easy to be screwed and you have to generate some sort of return. But I would start to go look at small business loans.

• 38:44Speaker 03

  Okay.

• 38:44Speaker 01

  Maybe run by like a local credit union or something. And, and then just, you, you know, you're going to, you're going to reach a, a threshold point where it's like, okay, am I super committed to this? Cause you're going to trade the stress of being overworked, which you're still going to be, by the way. You can just trade the stress of that for the stress on the financial side. So you're just going to have to evaluate, all right, what's my real commitment level? What's my real risk tolerance here? How much do I believe in this? And, and do all the modeling you can. But if you've got a great customer base and you're already experiencing a lot of traction, then you've got a lot of positive signals from the community that there's a demand.

• 39:20Speaker 03

  Yeah, absolutely.

• 39:21Speaker 01

  And so I wish you massive amounts of luck.

• 39:24Guy Raz?

  Yes.

• 39:24Speaker 03

  Thank you so much, guys. Appreciate it.

• 39:26Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 39:26Guy Raz?

  Sarah Godfrey, the brand is called Sarah's Gluten Free Foods. Good luck. Thanks for calling in.

• 39:30Speaker 03

  Thank you.

• 39:32Guy Raz?

  Thank you. Yeah. It's, it's like such a labor of love because baking is a lot, it's a lot of work. It's like-

• 39:41Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 39:41Guy Raz?

  -early mornings. It's a lot of work, but there's, I mean, this is different. There's a mission here. It's like making gluten free foods delicious, which is slightly harder.

• 39:50Speaker 01

  And, and this is where, you know, this is why when I'm in a lot of the kind of interviews and, and stuff that I do, I talk a little bit more about the interpersonal side of entrepreneurial ship because this is, these, this is like stress management and holding a vision together. And, you know, these entangibles like courage and stuff like that are going to come into a lot of strain. But look, small businesses that start from nothing are kind of the backbone of this country. So I support them.

• 40:19Guy Raz?

  No question about it.

• 40:22Guy Raz?

  All right, we're going to take a quick break, but we'll be right back with another caller and another round of advice. Stay with us. I'm Guy Raz and you're listening to the Advice Line right here on How I Built This Lab.

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• 41:42Guy Raz?

  Welcome back to the Advice Line on How I Built This Lab. I'm Guy Raz and today I'm taking your calls with Ben Goodwin, co-founder of Olly Pop. Ben, ready for next call?

• 41:51Speaker 01

  Let's do it.

• 41:52Guy Raz?

  All right, let's bring in our next caller. Welcome to the Advice Line. You're on with Ben Goodwin of Olly Pop. Tell us your name, where you're calling from, and a little bit about your business, please.

• 42:00Speaker 06

  John Groner. I'm calling about the Bexley Natural Market, central Ohio's only cooperative grocery store. It's been around for 50 years. In 2024, it had some financial trouble. I happened to retire as a pediatric trauma surgeon in 2024. So the Bexley Natural Market seems like it needed some resuscitation, so I joined the board with no food experience.

• 42:24Guy Raz?

  Okay, thanks so much for calling in, John. So if I got the story right, you are running a food co-op in Ohio. And where in Ohio is it again?

• 42:33Speaker 06

  It's a suburb of Columbus.

• 42:34Guy Raz?

  Okay, so Bexley, okay. And tell me about the co-op. I mean, I'm imagining like bulk bins of natural products and organic foods. I mean, what do you guys sell there?

• 42:46Speaker 06

  So, well, of course, I have to say first, Olly Pop is right next to the cash register.

• 42:50Speaker 01

  Ah, good man.

• 42:51Guy Raz?

  Great, okay.

• 42:53Speaker 06

  Good. Natural, organic, yeah. Farmers bring stuff right to our store. I mean, one time, a customer said to me, is the farmer nice to his chickens? I was stocking the eggs.

• 43:04Guy Raz?

  Right.

• 43:04Speaker 06

  I said, well, you can ask him. He's standing right here. So she had a conversation with the farmer and she brought three dozen eggs. So we spend hundreds of thousand dollars to local vendors and farmers every year.

• 43:17Guy Raz?

  Yeah, nice. And John, tell me a little bit about how the business does. I mean, what are, it's a co-op and are you profitable? Are you, yeah, I mean, how are you guys doing overall?

• 43:29Speaker 06

  So if you go back to pre-pandemic, maybe 1.2 to 1.4 million in sales per year. The problem wasn't so much the pandemic, but afterwards, there was definitely some mismanagement, too much on salaries, some bad choices, and this is before I got involved. So it was really going downhill. And when I joined, there was a public meeting, should we close the store? Should we not close the store? A couple of us said, you know, I just really love this store. I mean, my kids sort of grew up there, you know.

• 44:02Guy Raz?

  Yeah. And how's the business doing now compared to the pandemic?

• 44:05Speaker 06

  We're about halfway back. I mean, we are definitely in the profitability way, but not terrific.

• 44:11Guy Raz?

  So your sales are half, are half of what they were at their peak. Wow. So that's significant. Okay. Before we dive in further, what's your question for us?

• 44:19Speaker 06

  So I visited co-ops in a lot of other cities as research and they all have websites. So I thought, well, I will develop a website for the co-op and that will help our sales. So I spent hours and hours and hours, you know, photographing thousands of products, putting on the website, and there's like no traction. So how can I get traction on the website? How can I just, we need about 20% more sales to kind of push us over the hump to really be not in danger of closing.

• 44:44Guy Raz?

  Okay, a lot to ponder here. Ben Goodwin, I'd love to hear your thoughts for John. Bexley Natural Market, their sales are half of what they were during COVID and obviously, you know, they're trying to figure out how to turn this thing around.

• 44:58Speaker 01

  Yeah, 100%. Well, first, it just says a starting place, John. I think it's really admirable what you're doing. Being a pediatric trauma surgeon is absolutely incredible and I'm sure you've really helped a lot of people. And it also shows the kind of person you are that you jumped into this, which was struggling. And, you know, cooperatives are really, really important to the community. First of all, actually, for what it's worth, I owned a small co-op out of a house in my mid 20s back in Santa Cruz. And then we had a sister co-op in Berkeley and a Santa Monica. So I actually, you know, but they were small. They weren't actual storefronts. They were inside homes. So they're, again, really important

• 45:40Speaker 01

  part of the community. And I think, you know, you deserve a lot of respect for what you're doing because it's not easy work, but it's so crucial. I'm curious, what is the intended goal of the website? You said other co-ops that set up websites, you know, how are you attempting to use the website as a revenue source? And is there anything falling off?

• 46:00Speaker 06

  So the way the website is set up, it's a Grace Cart. I'm not sure if you're familiar with that, but it's so, when new products come to the store and they're inventoried, it automatically shows up on the website. So you can order from the website, you can pay. We don't have delivery right now. But the idea is to compete with the Kroger truck that's going by the store every day, taking groceries to families. That, you know, in my non-scientific survey, you know, people say, well, I'd love to shop at the co-op, but I just don't have time to go around. You know, if there was a way I could just order things and just pick it up, that would be great. So that was the thought behind it.

• 46:34Speaker 01

  We need to get Sarah out there.

• 46:36Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 46:36Guy Raz?

  Yeah, for sure. John, I don't know how much, if you should put a whole lot of energy into marketing or promoting e-commerce for now. It's a very, very hard, it's an expensive game, right? And customer acquisition costs are very, very high. And maybe down the road, but I think for now, what you have is what Kroger and the big chain stores don't have, which is, you know, exclusive products, handpicked curated items in the store, real stories. You mentioned that people come and ask about the eggs and are the chickens treated well? You know, they want to know about the meat and how it's slaughtered. You know, where's the fruit coming from? I mean, all of those are stories that the big grocery stores just don't have and they can't tell. So a couple of things come to mind. First

• 47:20Guy Raz?

  of all, could you try things like, you know, like bringing the farmers in, have like a meet the farmer Saturday or something, you know, where you've got somebody there talking about the meat or talking about the peaches you got right now? Or, you know, there's great milk in Ohio, has got to produce a lot of milk. I know this because Jenny's ice cream uses milk from Ohio. I think there are some creative things you can do to get not just your existing customers in, but to build more word of mouth. Like, oh, we're going to Bexley's Natural Foods to, you know, to try out, like every Sunday, they have samples of new products they're considering stocking and we want to go try them.

• 48:05Speaker 06

  Yeah, we do have a table at the local farmer's market, which is actually going on right now. Not every week, but some weeks. And we do have some products there. I mean, do you think that's a useful way of spreading the word?

• 48:15Guy Raz?

  Got to do it in the store.

• 48:16Speaker 06

  Got to do it in the store.

• 48:17Guy Raz?

  I think you got to do it in the store. Yeah.

• 48:19Speaker 01

  You know, I think there's three levers that are kind of a part of the co-op experience. So one, you know, has already been called out, which is uniqueness of ingredients and quality of ingredients, right? I've got friends who live in a small town in Pennsylvania who go to a co-op just like yours, right? And it's all this dairy from these amazing Amish farmers and really high meat quality. And they know that they're going to be able to go get things that are so much healthier, but also just taste so much better. And it's worth the special trip to go stock up. So amplification round, uniqueness of ingredients, but just an unmatched quality. Two, I really think about cooperatives from the standpoint

• 49:03Speaker 01

  of they are anchors and hub for community.

• 49:08Speaker 01

  You guys have like a parking lot to the co-op that's got some space that you control that's outside? We do. Yeah. So, you know, I would start to really think about how do we really leverage that space? You could almost take Guy's suggestion of like, meet the farmer, and you could think about, okay, how do I, how do I accelerate that? So how do I bring, once a month, or whatever the right cadence is, how do I create a special community moment? Or how do we deploy out into the community in ways that are supportive? Because I think that not only does it help to get the word of mouth out, but then by people interacting with the co-op or interacting with your events, they can start to actually feel more integrated into the community. And it actually becomes like, almost like a, like a social conduit for them, which is a big

• 49:52Speaker 01

  deal, and we need it more than ever. And I think the third thing is kind of like shopping experience. What are you doing to the inside of the store to make sure that it feels really good when you come in? You know, are the scents in the right places? Are they greeted by bright colors or fresh produce right when they walk in? Like, how, what, how is it arranged so that it's an intrinsically pleasurable experience? And I think unless you are delivering, you have an Instacart model, most people, this, and I could be wrong, but I would think that most people are going to be using the digital opportunity for the convenience. So they want to deliver to the house. So they're shopping, people might tell you, oh, it'd be convenient for me to look at your website. But nobody, it's like, I don't know. It's a lot more interesting, and you get more exposure to more things when you go in and

• 50:35Speaker 01

  actually shop the stores. I would look at those, those three levers.

• 50:38Guy Raz?

  Yeah.

• 50:39Speaker 01

  Yeah. But how do you balance, I mean, I think there are definitely things that could be done to improve the store. How do you balance the national brands, like you met Olly Pop, and you mentioned Bobos? You know, how do you balance the local brands versus the national brands in a, in a cooperative store?

• 50:53Guy Raz?

  I think the key is, is curation. It's finding, it's finding products that you guys really like. I mean, this is what makes Trader Joe's so successful. You know, they don't, they don't have thousands of SKUs. They have very few products on, on the shelves. But people know that it's been through, you know, Trader Joe's people have tested it. And, and if they don't like, like something after a while, it goes away. But you know that what you're going to get there is probably good. I think you want to take advantage of your, of, of the curation of the, of the folks who, who run the co-op. And, and that's what people trust. They, they want to go in and say, oh, I've never seen this beef jerky. It might be a national brand that they still haven't seen, or it might be a national brand that they have seen, like Olly Pop. It's, you're going to have some of that, too. But

• 51:38Guy Raz?

  I, I think the key is, is that your, the products that you've got in the store are practical. They're things people want to use and, and want to cook with and also eat, obviously. But they are also products that they know you guys have tested out, that you guys like. And, and I think that's what's going to make the difference.

• 51:55Speaker 01

  That's really helpful.

• 51:56Guy Raz?

  John Groner, the, the co-op is called the Bexley Natural Market in Bexley, Ohio. Thanks for calling in. Good luck.

• 52:02Speaker 01

  Thanks, gentlemen. You've been very helpful.

• 52:04Guy Raz?

  Thank you so much. Thanks.

• 52:05Speaker 01

  Good luck, John.

• 52:05Guy Raz?

  Appreciate it.

• 52:06Speaker 01

  Rooting for you.

• 52:07Guy Raz?

  Yeah, I love going into, uh, small grocery stores and co-ops. I mean, it's, I, I just walk the aisles, you know? Sometimes looking for ideas for the show, but also just to see what's out there, what people are, are, are making. And there's a lot of really interesting, tiny, tiny brands, you know? And a lot of it's delicious.

• 52:27Speaker 01

  Totally. I mean, I remember this tiny little co-op I used to go shop in Santa Cruz, and they definitely had, they had these olives that were just ridiculous. I couldn't get anywhere else. They had these macadamia nuts that were like, I couldn't get anywhere else. And, um, it was just this, you know, again, it felt like a cool place to go shop. There was just something about it. And I think that they really need to make sure they build up that emotional experience.

• 52:49Guy Raz?

  Yeah. Ben, um, thank you so much for coming on the show and helping me out. I have a, before I let you go, I have one question for you, which I'm asking all our guests, which is, if you could go back to when you were, you know, starting out, I mean, when you started Olly Pop, you already came with quite a bit of experience from the, the previous situation, right? But if you could go back to your, your you self then, and give you advice about what to do or not to do, knowing what you know now, what would have been helpful?

• 53:15Speaker 01

  Yeah, I, uh, I, I think that, look, I mean, I think that people who are entrepreneurially minded, you know, and actually, not to plug myself here, but I, Inc. gave me a monthly written column. And I just put my first article out on that. And I, in it, I was really talking about the kind of psychology of, of a lot of founders, and then, you know, being a craftsman or having a craftsman mentality, and how that's a, a buffering agent and a grounding agent. But I, you know, a lot of us have instincts, and we have to learn how to listen to them correctly, and work with them correctly, and calibrate them correctly. And I think

• 53:57Speaker 01

  it's being aware that, for those of us really caught for the entrepreneurial cloth, you will always have something a little special that the rest of the world may not be able to recognize clearly.

• 54:14Guy Raz?

  Yeah.

• 54:14Speaker 01

  But that's part of what makes you great entrepreneurs. Learning how to, to have faith in that part of yourself, learn how to work with it, and learn when to really trust your entrepreneur instincts is a really great use of time.

• 54:26Guy Raz?

  That's Ben Goodwin, co-founder of Olly Pop. Ben, thank you so much for coming back on the show.

• 54:31Speaker 01

  Guy, a real pleasure and an honor. Thanks for having me on.

• 54:34Guy Raz?

  And by the way, if you haven't heard Ben's original episode on How I Built This, you've got to go back and check it out. We'll put a link to it in the show notes. And here is a clip from that episode, one of my favorite moments from it, in fact.

• 54:45Speaker 01

  The first two years, I was focused on cracking the code around the fermentation. So we want to try these three chemicals, and we want to try this food source, and we want to try these microorganisms. So let's put that in a bag, let's do 10 different versions of it, and let's literally staple them to the wall of the shed. It looked like a scene out of, you know, the hive in Aliens? A little, little, well, yeah, until you see like, 400 bioreactor bags filled with god knows what hanging from the walls. I mean, it was absolute madness.

• 55:24Guy Raz?

  Hey, thanks so much for listening to the show this week. And by the way, please make sure to check out my newsletter. You can sign up for it for free at guyraz.com or on Substack. And of course, if you are working on a business and you'd like to be on this show, send us a one-minute message that tells us a little bit about your business and the questions or issues that you're currently facing, because we would love to try and help you solve them. You can send us a voice memo at [email protected], or call us at 1-800-433-1298. Leave a message there, and make sure to tell us how to reach you, and we'll put all of this information in the podcast description as well. This episode was produced by Kerry Thompson, with music composed by Ramtin Arablouei. It was

• 56:08Guy Raz?

  edited by John Isabella, and our audio engineer was Sina LaFredo. Our production staff also includes Casey Herman, Carla Estevez, J.C. Howard, Sam Paulson, Catherine Seifer, Chris Messina, Alex Chung, Niva Grant, and Elaine Coats. I'm Guy Raz, and you've been listening to The Advice Line, right here on How I Built This Lab.

• 56:30Guy Raz?

  If you're running a small business, and payroll benefits and hiring feel like a lot, you're not alone. And Just Works is ready to help, because you don't have to worry when it just works.