Part Two: Alfred Hugenberg: The Elon Musk of Weimar Germany

World War 1 has begun, and Robert walks Amanda through how Alfred Hugenberg bought up the German media to make the case the the war should go on for ever, and then how he backed the Nazi party and ushered Hitler into power when that didn't go well for some reason. Sources: The Pan German League by Barry Jackisch https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2025/02/hitler-oligarchs-hugenberg-nazi/681584/ The Fateful Alliance by Hermann Beck https://www.historylearningsite.co.uk/modern-world-history-1918-to-1980/weimar-germany/ https://corporatecitizen.in/issue3/corporate-history-mercedes-was-hitler%E2%80%99s-idea.html https://link.springer.com/chapter/10.1007/978-3-642-75512-5_1 https://www.topfundsoehne.de/ts/en/site/history/index.html https://archive.org/details/alfredhugenbergr0000leop/page/11/mode/1up See omnystudio.com/listener https://omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:01Speaker 00

  Cool Zone Media.

• 0:04Robert Evans?

  Oh, boy, howdy. We're back having a good time and everything's good. We're podcasting about Alfred Hugenberg, a great asshole who, at this point in time, has helped make World War I a reality, which, you know, I hope to one day make World War I a reality. So, uh, yeah.

• 0:28Speaker 00

  You are. You're keeping its memory alive right now.

• 0:31Robert Evans?

  Every day, every day. As soon as this call finishes, Amanda Montel, our great guest and the author of Coldish, as soon as we finish this recording, I'm gonna get back on the phone with Emmanuel Macron over in France and try to sell him some new machine guns, you know? Then I'm gonna tell the Germans, "Do you know what Macron's doing? Holy shit!"

• 0:51Speaker 00

  That moment, that moment when you become your podcast.

• 0:56Robert Evans?

  That's right, that's right.

• 0:57Speaker 00

  Where do you end and it begins?

• 1:00Robert Evans?

  Look.

• 1:01Speaker 00

  Subject verb agreement. I don't know.

• 1:02Robert Evans?

  What's the one thing everyone agreed in 1913 and today? Too many young people in Europe, you know? We're gonna, we're gonna knock that problem out right away. Just make a new Western Front? Exactly, exactly. You know, it's good for the economy.

• 1:21Speaker 00

  It's terrible.

• 1:22Robert Evans?

  Destroys the whole, anyway.

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• 2:27Robert Evans?

  We are at the point at which World War I is underway. Millions of boys are dying in an industrial form of slaughter heretofore unknown to the human race. And as Germany feeds its future into a steel maw of British and French bullets, Alfred Hugenberg has an idea. Now, the job he's working at this point is pretty close to what we'd call a hedge fund manager today, right? Not in terms of the way he's moving his money, but in the fact that he is the guy who other rich people give their cash to and he tells them what to do with it in order to make the most of it, right? And he's always been very bullish on German expansion. That's kind of his whole deal. Like, what if we had more Germany? And he's always felt like Germany deserved a bigger piece of the pie that was Africa.

• 3:09Robert Evans?

  And at this point, World War I, arguably Germany's best military commander of the entire war is in Africa, like a very actually like innovative insurgent kind of commander, running a truly ingenious insurgent campaign. And after the initial first few weeks of heavy advances through Belgium and eastern France, everything gets bogged down for the German army in the West. And so Africa's going to be one of those places that Germans can look to for like the kind of glorious martial stories of military cunning and courage that, you know, make good propaganda. Cause like, and then another boy died in the mud. Not great stories, you know? Not super, not super inspiring, right?

• 3:51Speaker 00

  So true.

• 3:53Robert Evans?

  So Hugenberg is like, naturally, when we Germans win this war, we're going to need to expand our African possessions. And for an idea of what it would have looked like had Hugenberg got his wishes, we don't have to look back much further than like the period that we're in right now, 1914. In fact, we just have to go back to January of 1904, which is when the Herrero people of modern day Namibia, led by a chief named Samuel Maharero, launched a rebellion against their German colonizers, right? So Germany already has Namibia. Hugenberg is looking at, when he, because he wants to take basically British African possessions and make them German, right? And what had happened 10 years before this in Namibia-

• 4:35Robert Evans?

  Was the Herrero had rebelled. They'd killed about a hundred and twenty something German settlers. And the Germans had responded by bringing the armed might of, they have the most powerful army on the planet at the time. To bear against these guys who don't have an army, they just have some men who are warriors, right? So there's, it's not like a military with like an industrial state behind it. And this does not go well for the Herrero and the, the actual fighting, the battle is won quite quickly because the Germans have artillery. And as a general rule, if one side has artillery and the other side has not that, the side with artillery wins. This is one of the fun rules of warfare. That's been generally true.

• 5:16Robert Evans?

  German soldiers pursue the fleeing civilians after they kind of break the fighting forces. They continue to pursue because like the Herrero flee, they try to get the fuck out of Namibia, right?

• 5:27Speaker 00

  Sure.

• 5:27Robert Evans?

  And the, these colonial soldiers pursue these fleeing civilians into the desert and massacre thousands of them. A mix of just shooting them to death en masse and poisoning their well. So they'll be in like the desert and they'll poison like a water supply to kill more of them.

• 5:43Speaker 00

  Oh my God.

• 5:44Robert Evans?

  It's, it is a, it's a genocide. This is a genocide. Yeah. This is universally recognized as a genocide. You know, like, like Germany was doing genocides well before Hitler got into power, right? And around this time, they're also going to have a hand in the Armenian genocide during, you know, World War One. So they're not clean on that either. In October of 1904, a German commander gave this order to Herrero civilians seeking to return home to Namibia. Quote, "Within the German borders, every male Herrero, armed or unarmed, will be shot to death. I will no longer take in women or children, but I will drive them back to their people or have them fired at. These are my words to the Herrero people from the great general of the mighty German Kaiser."

• 6:29Speaker 00

  Okay, wait, I have a question. So, one of the like, mind blow moments for me from our part one was the context that so much of German nationalism hinged on them being jealous of Britain's colonization of various territories.

• 6:46Robert Evans?

  Oh, yeah.

• 6:47Speaker 00

  Were there, still though, Germany's attitude seems especially belligerent. Like, they, were there other nations that had like newly embraced nationalism around this time that aspired to the level of colonization and brutality that Germany was executing?

• 7:09Robert Evans?

  Sure. A great example would be Japan, who is starting their colonization, who's starting to colonize right around, I mean, in World War I, they take a bunch of German possessions. This is a big part of Japanese colonial expansion. And they're going to be hideously genocidal everywhere they, the Empire of Japan spreads to. And obviously, the British have been doing colonizing a lot longer, but one of the first big acts of British colonialism was to kill, by some counts, tens of millions of people in Bengal through a famine that was largely the result of business choices made by the, a British corporation. So, the fact that Germans get a colony in Namibia and almost immediately do a genocide, this is very much the norm, right?

• 7:50Speaker 00

  Okay, this is like a playbook.

• 7:52Robert Evans?

  Shit, constantly, yes.

• 7:53Speaker 00

  Shit, okay.

• 7:54Robert Evans?

  Yeah, this is, this is not at all like a freak incident. This is not just the Germans, right? This is a product of, this is just how colonialism always works.

• 8:03Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah, for sure.

• 8:04Robert Evans?

  But Hugenberg is aware of what the Germans are doing in Namibia. This is reported on, and his whole attitude is, we need to be doing this to way more of Africa to make room for a bunch of German farmers, you know? Let's, let's, let's get on it. We've got better guns than these people. Wiping them out will be no problem. So when he talks about needing to expand to Africa, I just, I wanted to tell that story because that's what he's talking about, right? Mm-hmm. Now, Africa, things are, I wouldn't say they're going well for Germany in the war, but it's one of the areas where they can take a lot of pride because they've got this like very innovative commander doing very innovative things over there. That's a lot sexier than what's happening on the Western Front past a point. The other big win the Germans had had, right at the start of the war, was that they had

• 8:49Robert Evans?

  conquered Belgium, right? Now, this is actually a big part of why they lose the war on a strategic level because Belgium is an independent neutral nation, nation, right? The Germans take Belgium because they need it as a road to get to France because this plan they have says that that's the best way to do these things. And the British are like, if you go through Belgium, we don't, maybe, maybe we don't have a dog in this fight, but if you go through Belgium, then you're gonna be fucking with us, right? And they go through Belgium and the British get involved, right? So this is, it's one of those things where the Germans are very proud to have a Belgium, but also it kind of is a big part of what fucks them over. But Hugenberg is not really thinking about that at the time.

• 9:31Robert Evans?

  He sees Belgium as an investment opportunity and he's very glad to have it. And he sees the same as, you know, Germany has taken a good deal of French territory at this point in eastern France, which includes this one recent region of like southeast France that Germany has occupied, is where they, the French keep a big chunk of their mines, right? It's like a heavily resourced instance region, right? So he's looking at these new conquests and seeing them as permanent, even though the war is very much in doubt, he's like, you know, the smart man needs to be thinking, how are we going to take advantage of this, right? What are we going to turn these new possessions that we have as a people into? So as the war grinds forward, the Pan-Germanic League works overtime, propagandizing that

• 10:14Robert Evans?

  these new conquests are now German territory forever by right of blood, and no peace can even be negotiated if giving up Belgium or any French territory is required. This is a big part, a lot of people wonder, well, it became very quickly obvious, no one's going to win this. Easily. It is bleeding everyone white. You're all wiping out whole generations of young men to fight this war. Why don't we just stop? Right? And a big part of why is the Allies, you know, Britain and France are like, well, okay, like, we'd be happy to end the war. I'm not, they're not initially like this, but there's a lot of willingness to end the war. But Germany has to give up the places they took, right? Like, you could just keep all this France, like, fuck you.

• 10:58Robert Evans?

  You can just keep Belgium and the Germans, and this is a big part of why the German state and the Kaiser refused to go along with this is you've got these, this very influential Pan-Germanic League being like, absolutely under no circumstances can we compromise on these territories, right? Again, that's not all of why this happens, but they're not, they're not a small part of why there is no willingness to compromise. Which could have ended the war at least a year or two earlier, right? Maybe in a way that would have been less overall calamitous to the German economy, right? Because a negotiated peace wouldn't have involved Germany completely surrendering. You know, maybe they would have had to lose, give back a bunch of this territory, but

• 11:39Robert Evans?

  they, they could have maintained being a functional state and not had, it wouldn't have been like a Treaty of Versailles situation, right? Potentially, it's a much better future, but Hugenberg and his ideological simpaticos are like, the fuck? Give up Belgium? We have all sorts of, all sorts of plans for Belgium, you know?

• 11:58Speaker 00

  The overconfidence, man.

• 12:00Robert Evans?

  I get it. As, as an Italian man, my natural enemy is the Belgian, you know? As Caesar said, all gall is divided into three parts, and one of those motherfucking parts is the Belgians, and I gotta, I gotta quarrel with them. I'm still hoping to take Belgium one day. I think I could. I think I could.

• 12:17Speaker 00

  As an Italian, I thought your, your, your number one enemy was not eating lunch.

• 12:23Robert Evans?

  Yeah, not eating lunch, seven hour dinners, the Persians, uh, yeah. We have a lot of enemies, we Italians.

• 12:29Speaker 00

  So many enemies.

• 12:30Robert Evans?

  Also, healthcare CEOs, apparently. Anyway.

• 12:34Speaker 00

  Ah, yes. Oh, yeah. The Italians, they're everywhere and they're doing all sorts of things.

• 12:39Robert Evans?

  Famous Italian.

• 12:41Speaker 00

  My god, is that true? Is that the most famous Italian at the moment?

• 12:44Robert Evans?

  Who's the most, who, what Italian is more famous than that guy right now? Berlusconi? Absolutely not.

• 12:51Speaker 00

  No, no way. I feel like Luigi has even overtaken like the Luigi from Mario, which that's, that's huge.

• 13:00Robert Evans?

  He's more famous than Mussolini now, which I gotta say is a huge win for Italian Americans, you know?

• 13:06Speaker 00

  Honestly, whoa.

• 13:09Robert Evans?

  Massive dub.

• 13:11Speaker 00

  What a weird, what a weird, uh, PR strategy. You're like, okay.

• 13:16Robert Evans?

  We're looking a lot better these days.

• 13:20Robert Evans?

  Now, you gotta remember, so the war is on and, and while he's kind of, he's a part of this group that's pushing, we can't give any of this up. His job is running this like organization made up of all of the rich guys with mines and arms companies putting, pooling some of their money together. This organization is called the Zeke and Verband. And it's an association of industrial businesses, mines and Krupp. Like there's companies like Krupp in there too. So it's not just raw material producers, it's people who use those raw materials. And basically just everybody with a big business in the Ruhr, in this industrial heartland region. The Zeke and Verband had been founded in 1908 to represent their common interests. In pre-war, this had mainly meant fucking with labor unions.

• 14:04Robert Evans?

  And up through the end of the war, the Zeke and Verband was successful at ensuring no one mine union could work with any other mine union, right? They made, they basically made so legislatively, unions could not ally, right? So that you can strike at one mine or one factory, but you can't organize any kind of general strike, right? And the Zeke and Verband also had a strike fund, but for mine owners themselves. So that if the workers at any mine went on strike, other mines that were their competitors would pay to keep them going. Because it was more important to fight the labor, right? Now that the war's going on, there's suddenly a lot more on the line than just like, you know, fucking with labor unions.

• 14:47Robert Evans?

  The good news for these guys is that profits. Fucking sore because Germany needs a lot more weapons now, right? The people making the raw materials that become bullets and cannons, they're doing great. The people making the weapons are great. This is a good time to have stock in Krupp. Hugenberg helped gently direct the eyes of his hungry my fellow mine owner or of his of these hungry mine owners towards all of the territory in France and Belgium that they might be able to exploit in the future. He's like, hey, guys, I know we're making bank now. The war's got to end someday, but we just got all this new French territory. A lot of mines there, Belgium, lot of mining potential in Belgium. We should start investing now in being able to take advantage of that.

• 15:31Robert Evans?

  Once the war ends and we still own all it. And so from Hugenberg's perspective, the thing he is most frightened of in 19, late 1914, 1915, 1916, the thing that scares him is peace. Because if peace goes wrong.

• 15:45Speaker 00

  I was gonna say.

• 15:47Robert Evans?

  He's gonna lose a lot of investments that he started to make, right?

• 15:50Speaker 00

  Okay, so this is my question, like, just sort of nervous system wise. I can't relate at all to these motherfuckers because.

• 16:01Robert Evans?

  Well, you shouldn't. They're monsters, they're ghouls.

• 16:04Speaker 00

  For sure. But even if I'm like at my most empathetic and I'm like, let me get into the mind and body of an arty type, just to see what's what's making him tick. I can't, I can't, I still can't understand how one could reconcile wanting wartime and wanting conflict because it will be good for your wallet. But like, we're not, I, I, I, yeah, I just don't get it, how it works.

• 16:35Robert Evans?

  Part of it is because they they also tell themselves, we're not being selfish. We're patriots and this will be better for Germany, right? The sacrifice is worth it for Germany.

• 16:45Speaker 00

  Philosophy.

• 16:46Robert Evans?

  But the other thing, I think if you want to keep, if you want to get into your head, how these people can be so greedy. I think there's a micro way of kind of looking at it. There was a time, I'm sure in your life, Amanda, the same is true of me, same is going to be true of most people listening, where you made a lot less money than you currently make, right? You know, when you're 19 or whatever.

• 17:05Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 17:05Robert Evans?

  And you survived, right? You had, you paid rent and you ate food, right? Now you make, I'm presuming more money than you did when you were 18 or 19, and you're still surviving, but you also probably still have a lot of things, like have a lot of economic anxiety, even though you have a lot more, which is very common. And that psychological process doesn't stop just because you have more money than you can ever spend, right?

• 17:32Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 17:33Robert Evans?

  We're not rich enough to get to the... Exactly.

• 17:37Speaker 00

  Right, right.

• 17:38Robert Evans?

  Right, right. Like, if you get, if you get a billion dollars, statistically, the thing you want to do most, most people, some, not everyone, like Tom from MySpace seems to have avoided this, but statistically, a lot of people who get a billion dollars, the main thing on their mind is now I want to get two. I need to get 10. I need to get, right? Like, that's, that's just kind of like, you know, it's, it's, it's why, again, it's why you need to have like societal restrictions that stop people from accumulating like that, because once the process starts mentally, very few people can avoid continuing down that road, even to some extent, even if they're reasonably good people ahead of time, right?

• 18:15Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, that's so true.

• 18:16Robert Evans?

  It's a poi, it's a drug. It's a drug. It's like giving someone heroin, right? Sometimes people, you give them heroin, they might get addicted, even if they don't want to, because like, that's what drugs do, you know?

• 18:27Speaker 00

  I know. I, it just keeps reminding me of, I mean, obviously, we have like cultural lessons and axioms and proverbs that try to convince us to resist those impulses. And the one I always think of is that Edward Abbey quote, that's like, "Growth for growth's sake is the ideology of a cancer cell."

• 18:47Robert Evans?

  Yes, yes, absolutely.

• 18:49Speaker 00

  It's so hard to internalize messaging like that.

• 18:54Robert Evans?

  And again, and that's why, that's why there's, there's gotta be just actual, like you have to as this, at this, at the kind of collective level, make rules to stop that. Because individual people, not, not that no one can avoid this, because there are people who have strong enough sense of self and moral centers that admit that the option won't get that rich, won't let it happen. But, but usually this does not happen. The Hugenberg group, where people are like, because, and again, you have to, again, to go back to the heroin comparison, the amount of money they start making because of the war, like, they, they don't want to give that up, period, right? Like, that is, this is-

• 19:30Speaker 00

  It's like Pavlov's dog. It's like, if money comes because of war, let's do more war.

• 19:36Robert Evans?

  Delicious, delicious, I love it all.

• 19:39Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 19:40Robert Evans?

  So, Hugenberg convinces these guys, the only threat to our future profits is peace, particularly the wrong sort of peace. And if we want to make that impossible, I need you to give me some of your money, and we're gonna start buying up newspapers, right? Because that's how we can stop, we can kill the peace movement. Because from the beginning, once this war starts wiping out generations of young men, there's a lot, there's an anti-war movement brewing, even within Germany, a pretty sizable one, and they're like, this is all the fault of, like, Bolshevik propaganda, we need to start buying the newspapers, and then we can convince everyone their son's dying is a good idea. So, the four largest of the companies that are in this organization that Hugenberg's

• 20:24Robert Evans?

  heading, the Zeichenverband, including Krupp, who is, which is still managed by Hugenberg, send representatives to act as spokesmen for the creation of a private association, the Wirtschaftliche Gesellschaft. And this is a trust fund, regularly topped off by profits from war profiteers, and used to, quote, "countermand threatening dangers in the economic and social fields." Leopold, in his biography of Hugenberg, continues, "Through the use of diverse bank accounts and holding companies administered by additional trustees, Hugenberg and these industrial leaders masked their control. The Ausland, established in 1914, became one of their- corporations. The Wirtschaft und Dienst GmbH Incorporated in May of 1916 concealed investments made for

• 21:06Robert Evans?

  the improvement of economic news service and the management of press corporations. A third firm, the Deutsche Verbehörung AG, established in February of 1917, officially managed funds for the erection of business offices for the varied associations of German industry. Its larger purpose, however, was to participate in various businesses and measures which appeared suitable to the corporation for the advancement of general German industrial and national interests. So they are buying up newspapers and they're creating organizations to manage newspapers as a group. And they're hiding through these shell companies, the fact that they own all of these papers. And that it's Hugenberg pulling the strings. Now, this of course means you're gonna, you need to bribe a lot of people and you need

• 21:49Robert Evans?

  to make the kind of investments that act as bribes. But a large chunk of the tens of millions of Reichsmarks that are raised in this period are put towards the purchase directly of media organs. The fund set its beady eyes on a large Berlin publishing house, the August Scherl Company, named after a right wing newspaper entrepreneur. He was basically the equivalent of the German William Randolph Hearst, or the guy who created the Daily Mail back in the UK, like he's that kind of guy. These are, these are conservative papers. This is like the Fox News of its day in Germany.

• 22:22Speaker 00

  Yeah. Murdoch situation.

• 22:24Robert Evans?

  Right. And so these guys buy it, right? The Scherl Company's two big publications are Der Tag, which is for intellectuals in the capital, and Berliner Lokalanzinger, which is about 10 times larger in terms of its readership and is aimed more at the working class. Scherl also ran a series of small-

• 22:41Speaker 00

  Pause, Robert, were you always this good at reading and pronouncing German words? Or has the podcast-

• 22:46Robert Evans?

  I'm not good at all. People are gonna be talking so much shit about how I'm saying these things.

• 22:50Speaker 00

  Oh, I mean, it sounds like super confident. You're not even like fumbling.

• 22:54Robert Evans?

  I, I, you know, I don't do well at this. I think people are gonna be-

• 22:58Speaker 00

  You're pretty good at-

• 22:59Robert Evans?

  You've got me convinced.

• 23:00Speaker 00

  You're pretty good at Ukrainian words, but like, other than that, you're terrible.

• 23:04Robert Evans?

  I don't know if I'd say that, but-

• 23:05Speaker 00

  Oh, does that say something about you? I don't know. That's fascinating.

• 23:09Robert Evans?

  So Scherl ran a bunch of small weekly papers all over the country, all of which are united only by a shared conservative view of reality in politics. And this stood in opposition. The August Scherl Company is the big conservative publisher. The two bigger publishers in Germany are the Rudolf Moss Company, and the Olschstein Company, both of which are pro-democratic and generally liberal. August Scherl, the company, had been profitable until 1914, when the war broke out, because everything gets more expensive when the war breaks out. There's massive inflation. It's very difficult to afford to put out a newspaper. And part of why people stopped reading the August Scherl publications in 1914 is that up to the war starting, they'd been telling everyone, "Hey, this is gonna go great.

• 23:55Robert Evans?

  You're gonna love the war. We're gonna be done in a couple of months. Everyone will be back at home by Christmas. And when that doesn't happen, people are like, "Well, maybe I don't like this paper. Now that all four of my sons are dead, perhaps I will stop reading these guys." So they're kind of, Hugenberg's able to buy this shit on the cheap in 1916, using these pooled industry funds. Now, by the time the August Scherl Company sells to Hugenberg, things are bad enough that they need like 7 million marks just to settle their debt. And then there's, they gotta put a couple, Hugenberg has to put a few million more into it in order to actually like invest so that the company can be profitable again. But he doesn't care.

• 24:35Speaker 00

  Is that like chump change to him?

• 24:37Robert Evans?

  Yes. He is, he is essentially a billionaire at this point, right? Like, not literally, because like, nobody had that much at that point, really. But he is essentially a billionaire. For our terms, he would have been a billionaire if we're kind of like adjusting shit, right?

• 24:51Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah.

• 24:53Robert Evans?

  Scherl agrees, because again, this is chump change to him, and he doesn't care about profits. His condition is that if he buys this thing and gets them out of debt, he has full, absolute personal control over the publishing house and what they publish. So the Scherl Company inks an agreement, and Hugenberg puts one of his friends from the Pan-Germanic League in charge of the holding company that manages it. Instantly, Sheryl's papers go from being conservative to adopting the exact same line on war aims that Hugenberg and his fellow war profiteers wanted. No peace unless we get everything. And also, no peace while there's a buck to be made. One of Hugenberg's friends laid out the motivation of this cartel in buying these papers very directly in a letter.

• 25:38Robert Evans?

  This is one of Hugenberg's friends writing in a letter about what they're doing.

• 25:41Speaker 00

  Whoa, can't wait.

• 25:43Robert Evans?

  "The gentleman," this is who he's writing to, "should not believe that we were involved to have a good investment. We knew that nothing would come out of this, and we wanted to have political influence for our money." In other words, we're not, we're gonna make money off of these. This is a lost leader. It's like, you know, the Daily Wire. "We're gonna pump money into this, not because it'll make us money, but because it'll change the culture in a way that makes us money."

• 26:04Speaker 00

  Oh my god. They're poisoning wells in so many ways.

• 26:09Robert Evans?

  Yeah, they do. They're fucking, ah, the Germans and well poisoning. Big well poisoning culture at this point in time.

• 26:15Speaker 04

  Speaking of poisoning the well.

• 26:19Robert Evans?

  Speaking of, you know who loves poisoning? Nope. Uh, here's ads.

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• 27:29Robert Evans?

  We're back. And you know what? I just put Strick9 in a well. And I gotta say, it feels good. You know, it's a hoot. Doesn't hurt anybody, except for the people who drink from the well. And I don't know them. So, yeah, you know what? I get it. I, I, you know, I'm a German nationalist now. Long live the Kaiser. Anyway, in addition to pushing an extreme... Sophie, you always say, every time I try to give the Kaiser praise, you just hate Kaisers for some reason. What about Kaiser Permanente?

• 27:58Speaker 00

  I wonder what... No. Also, no.

• 28:00Robert Evans?

  Yeah, that's a real... That's even worse than the last Kaiser.

• 28:03Speaker 00

  Yeah, that's a really bad Kaiser. I got the fuck out of that Kaiser.

• 28:07Robert Evans?

  Some, some fucking guy sat down was like, "I wanna be a Kaiser, but I wanna kill more people than the last." I know! "I'll become a health insurer."

• 28:16Speaker 00

  Oh my god.

• 28:19Robert Evans?

  Honestly, Kaiser Wilhelm would probably do a better job.

• 28:24Speaker 00

  Yeah, totally.

• 28:25Speaker 04

  I think I'm gonna go...

• 28:26Speaker 00

  What a nightmare.

• 28:27Speaker 04

  I think I'm gonna go for a no.

• 28:30Robert Evans?

  Mm-hmm. I think we should let him give it a shot. So, in addition to pushing an extreme line on war aims, the papers were also set to the task of attacking the left, which it defined as anyone supportive of democracy. Alfred didn't write his own propaganda, but he was very involved at the operational level, investing in several major papers to push them further right, and also establishing a separate fund to shotgun money off to little nationalist papers all over the empire. So they're not just buying papers. They're giving away money to small independent papers to keep them afloat during World War I. So all of like the centrist papers are going out of business because it's a terrible time to be in business in Germany. So are a lot of the left-wing ones. But the right-wing press thrives.

• 29:14Robert Evans?

  Because he's paying it with war money, right?

• 29:17Speaker 00

  Oh my god, oh my god. Is this what's happening in conservative media right now? Cause I don't know if you...

• 29:23Robert Evans?

  Yes, exactly!

• 29:24Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah.

• 29:25Robert Evans?

  Or it's what was. The Daily Wire might be going bankrupt now, but you know, the oligarchs got what they needed out of them, right? Yeah, it's this thing of like, wow, it's hard to be an honest newspaperman trying to report accurately on things. And also, those people are dangerous to us. What if we made the only profitable kind of news right wing news using our infinite monies?

• 29:47Speaker 00

  Oh, my God, did you see that infographic or like some, I mean, I saw it in the form of an infographic talking about how like, yeah, the like biggest thought leaders and pundits right now, like podcasters are all conservatives, except for like one exception, that being Trevor Noah. And I was just like, this feels like a conspiracy.

• 30:08Robert Evans?

  Yeah, I mean, it was. It's just a very obvious one, right? You put a lot of money into buying and building audiences. And you put, you get people on the boards of the social media companies. So they make sure the algorithm support it, you know, same as it ever was. So, Hugenberg's support of war aims that held German expansion is non-negotiable, led him to back the political ambitions of Field Marshal Paul von Hindenburg and General Eric Ludendorff, both of whom are going to be key players in Hitler's rise. Hindenburg is the guy who hands over control to Hitler when he dies. And Ludendorff is the general who marches with Hitler during the Beer Hall Putsch. Now, by this point, and the war is

• 30:48Robert Evans?

  still on right now, there's a huge anti-war movement, right? By 1917, a lot of Germans are like, what if we stopped killing our sons? We can call these the sane people. And so Hugenberg hates these folks, and he helps develop and advertise a right wing counterpart, the German Fatherland Party. Now, the only real demand of the German Fatherland Party is that Germany should annex everything and keep fighting until the rest of Europe agrees to let them keep it.

• 31:16Speaker 00

  You just stop. That name is, I was triggered by, I did not enjoy that name. That was bad. Yeah.

• 31:21Robert Evans?

  It's okay. We're like, three years away from the American Fatherland Party, Sophie. It's gonna be great.

• 31:26Speaker 00

  I think we're already there.

• 31:28Robert Evans?

  We might be. Now, while he's also playing the part of arch-propaganda baron of the right, Alfred starts taking investment money from his friends with the end goal of exploiting all of those resources Germany was definitely gonna control entirely once the war ended. Per John Leopold, quote, He established three companies which would help Germany exploit Belgian resources. Similarly, at the end of 1917, he formed a company to develop the post-war settlement of French territory, which he expected the Reich to annex. Much more elaborate plans were formulated for the colonization of the East, which were incorporated in 1918 after the Russian defeat. Now, if you know your history, you know that investing in Germany continuing to control

• 32:09Robert Evans?

  France, Belgium, and Western Russia in 1917? Not a good investment. No. About to really, really go badly for Hugenberg. But I read this because by the end of World War I, he has become a bookie for war on a continental scale. He's taken everybody's cash, right? Like this, you know, and they're in all the cash of the people who are betting on, we're going to keep all this shit, right? Yeah. Um, he takes in some 37 million marks to establish cooperative funds aimed at settling German farmers on conquered land. And then, of course, Germany loses the war. Now, again, it is 100% agreed by absolutely everyone who, every professional historian,

• 32:52Robert Evans?

  every military historian, even the German ones, that Germany simply could not continue to fight. At the moment they made peace was the last moment they could have done it without the army shattering entirely and leaving a clear path to Berlin. And by the way, without a full-scale like anti, like socialist revolution overtaking the country, right? And they almost have one anyway. Like, Germany is absolutely out of gas. They have fucking nothing left. But if you're looking at a map like a dumb person, it looks like Germany gives up when they're winning. They're still in France. They still have Belgium, and they've got a lot of Russian territory. Germany's the biggest it's ever been.

• 33:36Robert Evans?

  It's the largest continental empire that, yeah, I think it existed certainly since the era of the Roman Empire. It might have been larger. I don't recall precisely, but it looks really good on a map if you're not aware of the fact that all of their soldiers are about to drop dead where they're standing, right? Now, Hugenberg is not a dumb man. He understands the army literally could not have kept fighting, but he can't accept that intellectually because that would mean that he'd been wrong. And he just is not the kind of guy who can be wrong. So he convinces himself, we've been stabbed in the back. Somebody fucked this up for us. It wasn't me and the other people running this fucking country. And he sets his vast propaganda apparatus.

• 34:17Robert Evans?

  He now controls the papers and he sets the papers to convincing the country of what we now call the big lie, right? Germany didn't lose because we got out fought and outlasted and we pissed off the Americans and boy, maybe we shouldn't piss off the people who have literally all of the resources on planet earth behind them. Possibly a bad idea when we're Germany. We lost because a sinister alliance of Jews, socialists and liberal democrats stabbed the fatherland in the back, you know? That's why all this happened. It's not that we picked a fight with a man who was three feet taller than us and made of solid steel. Again, I'm talking about the US in this period of time. After we were

• 35:02Robert Evans?

  already beaten so bloody that our eyes had swollen shut, you know, it's not that. It's the Jews, you know? The August Scherl company plays a substantial role in spreading this lie and their propaganda falls on welcome ears, not just among the same group of people where the nascent Nazi party did most of its recruiting at this time. He focused a lot on the Bildungsberga, right? The younger members of that class, these university students, many of whom had been too young to fight, right? And this spelled the final end of liberalism within the Bildungsberga, as Herman Beck lays out in his book, The Fateful Alliance. Students preceded the established Bildungsberga in appropriating a new conservatism. Before

• 35:44Robert Evans?

  the German defeat in the First World War and the subsequent economic turmoil and inflation, this cultivated bourgeoisie had enjoyed significant material security and comfort as well as greater social prestige than its counterparts in other European countries. To them, defeat in the war was more than a military disaster. It signified personal humiliation and the loss of a distinct cultural identity. As a result, large sections of the educated elite moved further to the political right.

• 36:11Speaker 00

  Yeah, there's nothing that turns like a generous, intellectually rigorous class of people. Conservative, like bitterness.

• 36:22Robert Evans?

  Like bitterness, yeah.

• 36:23Speaker 00

  Loss aversion.

• 36:25Robert Evans?

  Suddenly, I'm not.

• 36:26Speaker 00

  Conspiratorialism.

• 36:27Robert Evans?

  I thought I was promised more than this. It must be someone's fault.

• 36:30Speaker 00

  Exactly, exactly.

• 36:32Robert Evans?

  Now, Hugenberg's papers aren't just geared towards these people. And in fact, he's got a bunch of papers that are geared towards different segments of the population. But because, number one, he's from this group, they're best at messaging to these people, right? You know, it takes less than two years after the end of the war for like this rage and mania that's being drilled into German conservatives via Hugenberg's propaganda to really start to flourish. And one of the conservatives who is influenced by this stuff and is going to have a big impact on things is a fellow traveler of Hugenberg's named Wolfgang Kapp. Now, Kapp, interestingly enough, had been born in New York City because his family fled during the 1848 revolutions.

• 37:15Robert Evans?

  There's this wave of left-wing revolutions all around Europe in 1848. They don't succeed in toppling the German government, but it's scary. Kapp's family comes from money and they leave to be in New York for a while, right? But he moves back, he spends his youthful years in Germany, and he is kind of sculpted from conception to be a right-wing culture warrior, right? His family and his wife's family are nationalists, they have strong far-right pedigrees, and Kapp grows up to run an agricultural credit union. He used his position to argue against debt relief for starving farmers, and in World War I, full-throatedly endorsed the impossible war aims of Hugenberg and his ilk. He was also very bullish on unrestricted submarine warfare.

• 37:58Robert Evans?

  You can't, this guy thinks, you know what'll win us World War I? Is if we just shoot everybody's shipping all the time. Yeah, you know what never pisses off? Again, for example, the United States is killing a bunch of their citizens in boats. They love having their citizens killed in boats. Let's do a lot more of that, right? Doesn't work out very good. Not a great thing for Germany. Yeah. So after the war, Kapp co-founds the German Fatherland Party, or at the end of the war, Kapp is the co-founder of this German Fatherland Party, right? That Hugenberg is backing alongside a guy named Admiral Tirpitz.

• 38:41Robert Evans?

  And it was in this position that Kapp first makes contact with the Pan-German League. Germany had been entirely overtaken by a socialist revolution in the aftermath of the war. The whole country barely stops from going socialist because the Weimar government that gets put in place after the Kaiser leaves, basically like is a compromise government meant to avoid full civil war. And they, to a significant extent, make kind of a deal with a lot of these right wing forces, with the military, with the Freikorps, which are these groups of like veterans who fought against the left. That's kind of all happening in this period in order to like put that down. And these Freikorps units that develop, these guys aren't yet Nazis because Nazis don't

• 39:26Robert Evans?

  exist yet, but a lot of them will be later. And they basically are the inspiration for the brown shirts or the SA. And Kapp sees these paramilitaries that form to crush the left in, you know, the immediate post-war period. And he realizes like, there's a lot of potential here. We can mobilize these people, not just to do violence for us, but as like a voting bloc. Now, the problem is, Kapp is not good at waiting for his moment. So, once he gets, he forms this umbrella organization to lump these paramilitaries together, and he gets General Ludendorff to agree to join, right? And then he tries to overthrow the government. And one thing that's funny is that Ludendorff gets on board with this plan a few years

• 40:11Robert Evans?

  later, in 1923, because this is 1920, he's going to do the same thing with Hitler. Ludendorff loves trying to overthrow the Weimar government. He's no good at it, but loves trying. What a nasty little habit. Yeah, yeah, yeah, it's his cigarettes. So, Kapp's whole idea here is called the Kappputsch, and it's the same basic plan that Hitler, in a lot of ways, that Hitler's going to try to execute, although different logistically. He's really focused on Berlin from the start. He wants to try to take the capital. And for our purposes today, I'll just say it doesn't work, right? And what's relevant to Hugenberg, who's our focus, is that the League is definitely aware that Kapp is planning this putsch, and they give him a little bit of quiet support.

• 40:56Robert Evans?

  But as soon as it becomes clear that he's not going to win, the league disavows him and is like, we never supported, oh my God, treason, absolutely not, us. And Ludendorff kind of does the same thing and they all walk away unscathed. No, almost no one is punished for trying to overthrow the government. Cap even is allowed to go into exile in Sweden, right? Nobody wants to piss off the far right by punishing them for trying to overthrow the government and institute a dictatorship. And a lot of these same guys are gonna do it again. Fascinating how that works. So Hugenberg and his fellow plutocrats, you know, they, they make the public noises they have to make, you know, that's like, oh, that's

• 41:37Robert Evans?

  how horrible. Why would anyone try that? But Hugenberg is also already trying to figure out, how can I overthrow the Weimar government? And he, he, he's not a putsch guy. He doesn't want to have a bunch of dudes with guns do it. He's going to overthrow Weimar democracy through the ballot box, right? That's, that's his plan. Alfred had left Krupp finally in 1918 with a gargantuan fortune and a lot of influence. In 1922, Germany defaulted on her reparations repayments, which led to a cascading series of problems. The French occupy the Ruhr, this industrial heartland. If you're not gonna pay, we're going to take the money out of you by occupying the place where you make everything. The government,

• 42:20Robert Evans?

  in order to counter the French, backs a general strike, you know, in order to, so no one's gonna work in the Ruhr, then it's not worth it for you to occupy it. And the effect of all this is the economy fucking nosedives, right? And since people aren't working, the government starts printing more money to try and keep things going. And, you know, that, that's how you get hyperinflation, right? We're all aware of that. This is the thing people generally know about Weimar. And, you know, this is bad for basically everyone, but it's really good for Hugenberg because he's got a lot of liquid assets and everything is basically for sale in Germany for pennies on the dollar. So he buys up basically all of the remaining newspapers that he didn't own and wanted to own.

• 43:03Speaker 00

  Oh my God.

• 43:06Robert Evans?

  They're his personal property. He's not just owning them through this organization he's helping to run. He's just the guy who owns all these fucking papers. By the mid 1920s, he is the single largest media magnate in Germany. He has unparalleled reach. No one, probably no single person had ever had as wide a reach for disseminating their ideas to a culture as Alfred Hugenberg has in this period of time. He has total control.

• 43:31Speaker 00

  Oh my god. So he's back to his roots?

• 43:35Robert Evans?

  He's back to his roots. He's spent 44 billion on X or whatever. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Well, and he does. He purchases the largest German cinema chain. So he runs the movie theaters too, which means he gets to pick like what sort of newsreels go on ahead of movies in Germany. Like this guy has, owns the media.

• 43:56Speaker 00

  Ideology of a cancer cell.

• 43:58Robert Evans?

  That's right. Exactly. He's, he's a, he's fucking cancer. In 1928, he compounds all of that by purchasing his very own political party. Now, he doesn't like literally buy it, but he uses his wealth and influence and control of the press to become the chairman of the German National People's Party. This is the largest right-wing nationalist party in the country at the time. And his plan is going to be, I want to shift it even further right. And I'm going to read from an article by C. N. Truman here. "In 1931, he produced the party's new manifesto. Hugenberg called for the immediate restoration of the monarchy, the tearing up of the Treaty of Versailles, much greater contact between Germany and Austria, compulsory military service,

• 44:43Robert Evans?

  a new German empire, and a reduction in the perceived economic power the Jews had in Weimar's economy. Hugenberg's most immediate target was Chancellor Heinrich Bruning, who he believed was pushing Weimar inexorably towards socialism. Hugenberg was one of the most influential men at the 1931 Harsburg Front Conference, which met with the specific aim of trying to persuade the aging president Hindenburg to sack Bruning." So he is a major part of the conditions that formed to allow Hitler's rise in this period of time. And he is also, he wants to be Hitler. His goal is to put himself in charge of the company, of the country by buying this party, right? Like, that's kind

• 45:26Robert Evans?

  of how he is thinking at this period of time. Now, unfortunately, he's not a great-

• 45:30Speaker 00

  Isn't he getting tired? Like-

• 45:32Robert Evans?

  Oh, no. Why would he get tired?

• 45:34Speaker 00

  He's been at this for a while. Um-

• 45:36Robert Evans?

  Yeah, I mean, again, cocaine's available over the counter in this period, so it was a lot easier to have energy, I guess.

• 45:42Speaker 00

  So fair. I'm just thinking, like, he must be experiencing back pain by now.

• 45:46Robert Evans?

  Yeah. Oh, yeah. No, he can't be moving too well. Although, he's never had to work physically a day in his life, so maybe he's doing okay. He wasn't in the trenches.

• 45:56Speaker 00

  Right. That's a lot of sitting. That's a lot of sitting, though.

• 45:59Robert Evans?

  True. Now, under Hugenberg, the National People's Party actually shrinks, because there's a lot of conservatives who are like conservatives, but they're not super anti-Semitic, or even, I mean, some of them might have just been actual, like, Jewish conservatives, and they're not gonna stick around, as he makes the party much, much worse on that. And there's also a chunk of conservatives who are like economic conservatives, but like, military nationalism, we just had a horrible war, I'm not really down for it. So the party shrinks under Hugenberg. And the folks who leave tend to join either the Conservative People's Party, or the largest, like, the center party. Others rejected the monarchist bent, and they saw what Hugenberg was doing as watered down nationalism. So

• 46:42Robert Evans?

  they just went and joined the Nazi Party, who in this point in time, consider Hugenberg and the conservatives one of their big enemies. Because at their root, the Nazis are a poor workers' party in this period. And while they-

• 46:54Speaker 00

  Right.

• 46:54Robert Evans?

  They have wealthy elites backing them. The whole capital class has not yet gone in for the Nazis, right? The early, there are some early rich backers of the Nazis, like Hitler's friend Putzi, right? That guy Hahnstangl, who's like a very rich guy who helps bankroll the Nazis early. But most of the early rich people who bankroll the Nazis are socialites, and they get in board with the Nazis because the Nazis are cool and transgressive.

• 47:19Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 47:20Robert Evans?

  And they wanna be cool, too, right?

• 47:21Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 47:23Robert Evans?

  Hitler's first real inroad to wealth, to like, serious money, was an industrialist, industrialist named Fritz Thyssen. Now, that last name Thyssen, T-H-Y-S-S-E-N, if you go into an elevator, right now, walk into basically any elevator in the world, wherever you happen to be, and look around, you will see somewhere in that elevator, almost certainly, the name Thyssen Krupp. Krupp, of course, is the arms company that we talked about earlier. Thyssen is the company of Fritz Thyssen. They merge at a certain point, and they make all the elevators, as well as submarines, that get sold to the Egyptians.

• 47:58Speaker 00

  Oh, I was already considering taking the stairs more.

• 48:03Robert Evans?

  Mm-hmm. That's right. Take the stairs. Fight. I mean, you know, they're just kind of a boring company now, but this is, these are, these are the origins of all of that, right?

• 48:12Speaker 00

  I don't like those roots. I'm taking those stairs. Good for the glutes. Good for, good for the soul.

• 48:17Robert Evans?

  So Fritz Thyssen had been social with Hitler for a while, from like, the 20s. So they become like, kind of friends, but Fritz is also like, I don't know if this guy's going anywhere. He's kind of extreme. I'm not gonna like, go whole hog in. But in the, in the 30s, he's like, you know what? This guy is the best speaker I've ever seen. He's, he calls, he's enthralled by what he calls Hitler's oratorical gifts. And he says, what impressed me most-

• 48:40Speaker 00

  Although, I don't get that either. Okay, I want to hear what impressed him most. Let's hear that first.

• 48:45Robert Evans?

  Yeah. What impressed me most was the order that reigned in his meetings, the almost military discipline of his followers.

• 48:51Speaker 00

  Okay.

• 48:54Robert Evans?

  It's hard to tell Hitler's charisma as a Westerner, watching these speeches.

• 49:00Speaker 00

  It is. It is. I do not get it. It's yelly. It's, it's one note. You know, he doesn't, doesn't, doesn't follow the rules of like, classical dynamics, you know? It's like a bad pop song. That's just fortissimo the whole way through. You know?

• 49:17Robert Evans?

  Sure, but like-

• 49:18Speaker 00

  It's like, where did Metzow Piano go? You know?

• 49:20Robert Evans?

  People say that about Trump, and it works, you know?

• 49:25Speaker 00

  That's true. That's true. The populist yelling.

• 49:28Robert Evans?

  Hitler's really good at, at tweaking the amygdala of his followers, and at promising them vengeance. And if you can do those two things effectively, you can get about anything you want out of a population.

• 49:39Speaker 00

  That's so true. It's cathartic. It's cathartic.

• 49:42Robert Evans?

  Right. So Tyson has been kind of shotgunning, he's been funding the Nazis as a little, as a side hobby for a while in the late twenties, but in January of 1932, he looks out, the communists are also climbing in the polls, right? And the Nazis actually look like they're kind of bottoming out, like they've reached their height, but the communists are still getting more popular. And he can see that things are reaching a terminal juncture in Weimar. Something is going to break soon, and he wants it to break for the right. And he's like Hitler's my best bet. So he invites Hitler to speak in Dusseldorf before an assembly of industrial magnates. After the speech, all of the richest guys in Germany, the people who own, you know, all of the factories, all the big businesses, whose donations had

• 50:25Robert Evans?

  usually gone to like the center party or to kind of one of the center right parties, they start sending money to the tune of around 2 million marks a year to the Nazis. And because they don't want to be seen directly funding the Nazis, they reach out to a guy they all knew and had worked with, who was really good at funneling money, Alfred Hugenberg. And it's going to be Hugenberg who funnels the money from these industrialists directly into the Nazis. Now, in this, he is playing the same role he'd done earlier, but he's not a Nazi himself. He does not like Hitler, he hates Hitler, as a matter of fact. He thinks he's gross. He's a poor, he's poor, he's a corporal, right? Like, he's not as good as me. He doesn't have an education. He's, and a lot of these Nazis-

• 51:08Speaker 00

  His mustache doesn't look like Squidward's tentacles.

• 51:10Robert Evans?

  Exactly, exactly. It looks like a little one of those bars you put over someone's dick if they're naked. No, absolutely not. I'm convinced at this point that like, well, I'll hold my nose because Hitler and these Nazis, they can be a good weapon against the left. And obviously, that's what matters most, is crushing the left.

• 51:26Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah. There's so much of that happening in Germany throughout these years.

• 51:30Robert Evans?

  Uh huh.

• 51:31Speaker 00

  A lot of nose holding.

• 51:32Robert Evans?

  Not a lot, yeah. And it'll happen elsewhere soon. So Hugenberg doesn't stop running his own political party. And in fact, he gets in the Reichstag, like he gets elected to office. And his message, which is not as effective as the Nazi message, is in part not as effective because he's really speaking mostly to this educated, upper middle class, the Bildungsbürgertham. As Herman Beck wrote in The Fateful Alliance, "The educated elite's fate had been closely aligned with that of the empire. With the empire's demise, it suffered a decline in reputation that increased its alienation from Weimar, to which inflation added the grievance of material destitution. The inflation broke the economic spine of the Bildungsbürgerthum,

• 52:16Robert Evans?

  whose lifestyle had been supported largely by their savings, as regular salaries rarely sufficed to maintain the material accoutrement that went with their exalted social position, such as domestic servants and a costly education for their offspring. Probably no part of the German population felt the humiliating changes in everyday life more deeply than the educated elite. None felt more distant from a republican regime with which reconciliation seemed impossible." Again, he's like, "Hey, you guys are angry because your treats are gone. You can't afford servants anymore." Like, that's what he's promising. Whereas Hitler's promising workers, "I'll get vengeance for you, for all these people who have made your lives hard, and I'll make sure you have jobs. And not just jobs, you'll get vacations, you know?

• 52:58Robert Evans?

  That's a big thing the Nazis did, was like, made it possible for like, working-class people. They had like, funded vacations and shit like. That's who he's talking to. Hugenberg's talking to like, the sorta rich who were now sorta poor, and like, saying, "I'm gonna bring, I'm gonna fix things for you," right? So for a time, because this is not that large a chunk of the population, it seemed as if Hugenberg was destined to watch his party shrink while the Nazis grew and grew, right alongside the communists. And while he is responsible for funneling some money to Hitler, he refuses to compromise within the party, right? Like, he is not willing to change what the German National Party is saying. Because he wants it to be his mouthpiece. And in fact, when he gets rid of so many of his rivals that like, the party is insolvent,

• 53:43Robert Evans?

  like, he's gotten rid of enough, so many people that were funding it, that like, it can't be funded anymore, he just pays for the whole party himself.

• 53:51Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 53:52Robert Evans?

  Now, there's still the matter-

• 53:54Speaker 00

  Oh my god, he's like, just this sad dude with no friends and so much money.

• 53:58Robert Evans?

  No friends and all the money. Again, familiar to a certain plutocrat we all know and are frustrated by today. Now, speaking of people with no friends, if you want to have friends, make friends with these sponsors.

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• 55:19Robert Evans?

  We're back. So, Hugenberg is shotgunning some money to the Nazis in the early '30s, and he's got his party, which is winning seats in the Reichstag. It's actually like doing better and better in kind of '32. Not enough to control anything, but enough to be like part of a coalition. But he knows that like, you know, the left is also still growing, and I want to win this larger battle for control of the German state. And so he kind of admits, "I have to work more directly with the Nazis," right? "It's not enough to just kind of like help get some money to them. I have to actually start helping them out using my resources." So Hugenberg diverts his vast media apparatus to the cause of boosting Hitler.

• 56:03Robert Evans?

  By this point, he has a degree of control in some 1,400 newspapers and also owns the largest movie studio in Germany. One reporter at the time for a centrist paper described Hugenberg as "the great disseminator of National Socialist ideas to an entire nation through newspapers, books, magazines, and films." And he's doing this because he envisions his party governing alongside the other right wing party and the Nazis as a coalition. And so he's like, well, the more votes the Nazis get, the better our coalition can crush the left together. But we'll be in a coalition together, right?

• 56:42Speaker 00

  Uh huh.

• 56:43Robert Evans?

  It's in this brief period, 32 to 33, that Hugenberg is going to reach the apex of his evil talents. By this point, he was simultaneously the bag man for the whole far right. He's funneling wealth from Germany's capitalists to the Nazis. He's funding his own party, and he's running this vast media empire. And he's also sitting in the Reichstag as an elected member and directly pushing his own political agenda. And I'm going to quote here from an excellent article in The Atlantic by Timothy Reibeck. "Hugenberg practiced what he called 'catastrophenpolitik,' the politics of catastrophe, by which he sought to polarize public opinion and the political parties with incendiary news stories, some of them entirely fabricated articles intended to cause confusion and

• 57:25Robert Evans?

  outrage. According to one such story, the government was enslaving German teenagers and selling them to its allies in order to service its war debt. Hugenberg calculated that by hollowing out the political center, political consensus would become impossible, and the democratic system would collapse. As a right wing delegate to the Reichstag, Hugenberg proposed a 'freedom law' that called for the liberation of the German people from the shackles of democracy and from the onerous provisions of the Versailles Treaty. The law called for the treaty's signatories to be tried and hanged for treason, along with government officials involved with implementing the treaty provisions. The French ambassador in Berlin called Hugenberg 'one of the most evil geniuses in Germany.'"

• 58:06Speaker 00

  Oh, my God. Okay, so you said like way, way earlier in this recording that Hugenberg was not necessarily the most introspective motherfucker. He was like-

• 58:17Robert Evans?

  Not for his own person, no.

• 58:19Speaker 00

  Not for, right. So what do you think he thinks is the justification for all of this at this point? Like, how is he not feeling cognitive dissonance, or guilt, or like-

• 58:36Speaker 00

  How is he? I'm just curious for your take on how he's-

• 58:38Robert Evans?

  He wants to win. I mean, why would he feel guilt? You know, he believes, number one, it's moral for Germany to be, to take its place in the sun. He believes the Jews are a force for evil. He believes the poor need to be ruled by men like him, and he sees his bottom line as tied to this. I don't think it goes any deeper than that. I think, I mean-

• 58:56Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah.

• 58:57Robert Evans?

  Is this guy like associate, like could you di- could he have been diagnosed as a psychopath? I don't know, but like, this is not a man whose conscience troubles him for what he's doing over much.

• 59:07Speaker 00

  Okay, yeah. Clearly.

• 59:09Robert Evans?

  Yeah. In 1932, the Nazis carry the affluent Germans of the Berlin suburbs for the first time, which is a sign that some of the stuff that's going on here to push them, to boost them, is working. Now, Joseph Goebbels does not want credit to go to Hugenberg, right? Even though Hugenberg is a part of why this happens, because Goebbels, who is Hitler's propaganda guy, despises Hugenberg and is repeatedly trying to turn Hitler against Hugenberg, which actually wasn't really necessary, because one thing Alfred can't do, he can't suck up. Maybe he can to richer guys, but he can't suck up to Hitler. Because Hitler's, again, some poor asshole who got wounded in the trenches like an idiot, right? That's how Hugenberg looks at these people. He's a social inferior.

• 59:54Robert Evans?

  So Hitler doesn't like Hugenberg. I, I, I mean, just because no one does, right?

• 59:59Speaker 00

  Yeah, no one does.

• 1:00:01Robert Evans?

  No, he's a dick.

• 1:00:02Speaker 00

  But does, does Hugenberg not understand the, exactly. But like, does Hugenberg not understand the power of youthful cool? Because-

• 1:00:13Robert Evans?

  No, no, no, no. And in fact, there's a good bit here. So, "Vorwurz," a socialist paper in Weimar, Germany, had taken to drawing Hugenberg as a bloated frog in glasses, like that was their caricature of him. But even Hugenberg's friends had mean nicknames for him. Like, the people close to him called him "The Hamster." Hitler, for his part, part called Hugenberg "Wow Wow" or "Woof Woof," right? Like, he's a, he's a barking dog, right? He won't shut the fuck up. He's annoying the hell out of me. Now, that same year, Alfred opposed Hitler in the presidential election. So again, he's been putting money into Hitler and his propaganda has been boosting the Nazis. But he is still trying to oppose him politically.

• 1:00:58Robert Evans?

  And he backs, I forget who he backs, it doesn't matter, but he backs someone who's not Hitler for the presidential election. And during this election, for the first time, his party actually takes seats from the Nazis, which does force Hitler to come to the table, right? Hitler is like, okay, well, I guess I do have to work with this guy who I don't like very much, uh, cause he just took some seats from me and my party's kind of maybe starting to bottom out.

• 1:01:22Robert Evans?

  The meetings go by, they try to see if they can work out an agreement to like govern together, and they absolutely can't because Hitler's line, and he always sticks to this, is that we'll form a coalition government, but every ministry has to be headed by one of our people, right? We need them all, no compromise. And Hugenberg's not willing to compromise yet on that. Hugenberg himself is convinced that since his party has managed to capture a lot of seats, he and other conservatives, if they work with Hitler, can quote, "box Hitler in," right? So if we let the Nazis rule with us, we can kind of surround them and we'll stop him from doing any crazy shit. We'll be the adults in the room, right?

• 1:02:03Robert Evans?

  So by late 1933, Hitler and Hugenberg are trapped in this incredibly difficult situation where Hitler has the ability to become chancellor because, you know, he's got Hindenburg's kind of starting to support the idea, like his party's got enough electoral success. But he can't, he needs Hugenberg's support to cross that line, right? Both his money and his kind of voting support, right? Hugenberg can't be chancellor on his own. He doesn't have nearly the votes. So he can help make Hitler the chancellor, but he can't, he has no chance of getting that for himself. And the Nazis, sure as shit, aren't gonna make him chancellor. So, a compromise is reached, right?

• 1:02:46Robert Evans?

  As one of Hitler's friends put it, "Hugenberg had everything but the masses. Hitler had everything but the money."

• 1:02:51Speaker 00

  Ahhh!

• 1:02:52Robert Evans?

  And that excellent piece, yeah, exactly. In that excellent piece for The Atlantic, author Timothy Reibek describes what happened next. "After cantankerous negotiation, a deal was reached. Hugenberg would deliver Hitler the chancellorship in exchange for Hugenberg being given a cabinet post as head of a superministerium that subsumed the ministries of economics, agriculture, and nutrition. Once in the cabinet, Hugenberg didn't hesitate to meddle in foreign relations when it suited him. Reinhold Quatz, a close Hugenberg associate, distilled Hugenberg's calculus as follows: Hitler will sit in the saddle, but Hugenberg holds the whip. In other words, I am riding Hitler to success, and I can whip him if I need him to move in a direction."

• 1:03:33Speaker 00

  Oh, God.

• 1:03:35Robert Evans?

  Now, there is immediately, everyone gets scared when Hitler winds up, you know, directly in power in Germany, and then Hugenberg gets this position where he's running all the ministries, and all of the dumb papers do the same thing they're doing today with Musk, where they're like, "Ha, you are so scared of this Hitler guy. This Hugenberg dude is running things." Obviously. The New York Times publishes a column where they describe Hugenberg as an "arch-capitalist" who, quote, "stood in strongest discord with economic doctrines of the Nazi movement." Right? And they're like, "Well, he's running the finances. This Nazi schmotsy..." Like Nazi schmotsy, they're not gonna be that scary. This guy's gonna run things, right? Um, and-

• 1:04:18Speaker 00

  Not when you put schmotsy after it.

• 1:04:20Robert Evans?

  Yeah. And the New York Times-

• 1:04:22Speaker 00

  Sounds like the name of a little poodle.

• 1:04:23Robert Evans?

  They're usually wrong about stuff like this, but even the left gets confused. The communist daily paper in Berlin, The Red Banner, argues that Hugenberg is in charge, not Hitler. In fact, says that Hitler's socialist mask has slipped. Ha ha, he revealed his cards. It's the evil capitalists running things, you know, just like we said, and they're doomed to fail, and then it'll be our turn next. The weekly journal Die Weltbun described the new government as Hitler, Hugenberg, and Co. Roughly a day after Hitler was appointed chancellor, Hugenberg is said to have talked to a friend, the mayor of Leipzig, and told him, "I've just committed the greatest stupidity of my life. I have allied myself with the greatest demagogue in the history of the world."

• 1:05:05Robert Evans?

  So while everyone else is like, "Oh, thank God, Hugenberg's running things. That crazy Hitler guy is just a figurehead." Hugenberg, who is, has a lot of power right now, but has become aware enough and is smart enough to be like, "Oh shit, oh shit, oh shit. This, this could go badly." Like, "This guy I might not be able to control for long."

• 1:05:27Speaker 00

  And is that just, was it really just like Hitler's personality? Like, everyone underestimated him and then just got fucking clobbered by the guy?

• 1:05:38Robert Evans?

  Well, the thing that people don't, it's the same thing with Trump, right? I always get, I always try to push back when people talk about how dumb Trump is, or, you know, what an idiot he is. Like, he's not. He's, he doesn't know a lot of things you know, but he knows his business, which is getting, number one, populist support. And also, he is really good at maneuvering through organizations to crush dissent and reform them in his image. And Hitler has a similar, Hitler is a genius politician. He is extremely skilled. This is an intellectual skill. He is not lucky, I mean, he's got luck behind him too. It's always a factor, but he is not accidentally succeeding.

• 1:06:19Robert Evans?

  He is succeeding because he's better at the stuff that matters than the people opposing him. That's the reality.

• 1:06:26Speaker 00

  I guess too, one of the reasons why people call Trump stupid is because of data that will come out from time to time saying that he like speaks at a third grade reading level, whereas like the average presidential candidate speaks at a 10th grade reading level, whatever.

• 1:06:43Robert Evans?

  What'd he fucking do? Right? Yeah, you know who beats a bunch of people who read at like a 12th grade level? A bunch of people who read at a fifth grade level with more guns, like fucking come on now. I know, I know. Yeah, and Hitler's the same, Hitler's very good at what he does. He's good at building personal loyalty and he's good at keeping his people in lockstep. They don't act without his approval, right? So, that said, right after Hitler becomes chancellor and Hugenberg is made this economic minister, he is a kid in a candy store, right? For the first few months of the Third Reich, Hugenberg has nominal control over the entire German economy. He describes himself as the economic dictator of Germany.

• 1:07:29Robert Evans?

  And his first big step is to fire every government employee he can, trying to wipe out the entirety. He does a Doge, he's trying to wipe out all of the administrative state, right? So he, because he's angry that he has had to pay for taxes for public, so he wipes out every public employee he can. And at the same time, he starts executing a one-man war against workers' rights. He cuts his own employee wages by 10% across the board. He gives everyone a pay cut as soon as he gets into power. And he guts labor rights and the right to strike across Germany. All of this he justifies as necessary in order to get the German economy back into shape. And he uses his vast network of newspapers to manufacture consent for extremist policies that damaged the average German.

• 1:08:13Robert Evans?

  One of his pet columnists wrote at the time, "The real battle against unemployment lies singularly and alone in re-establishing profitability and economic life." Parodying Alfred's personal beliefs, this editor argued that the goal of state policy should be to rescue the merchant middle class, aka small business owners, no matter the cost to everyone else. Now, the focus on the middle and upper middle class was reflected in the few good moves that Hugenberg made, including he puts in a temporary foreclosure moratorium. Now, he doesn't do an eviction moratorium, and that should tell you who he's working for, right? The people who are this kind of middle class that has just lost everything? He sees them as his base of support, he doesn't give a fuck about. About the renters, the people who are really poor, right?

• 1:08:58Robert Evans?

  So there's a foreclosure moratorium, not an eviction moratorium. He also launches a limited debt jubilee, calculated to support struggling members of the Bildungsbergertum. And again, it's just kind of worth looking at sort of some of the stuff that he's doing. Cause it's not, some of these policies you could look at at a vacuum as good, but his overall goal is fuck the poor. I'm gonna, you know, build support among this kind of educated, upper middle-class elite. And of course, Hugenberg also pursues a tariff program, focused mainly on agricultural goods in an ill-conceived attempt to rescue German farmers. If I tariff all of these foreign agricultural goods, then Germans will farm and be profitable. It'll be great.

• 1:09:44Robert Evans?

  Now, the only result to these tariffs was that they skyrocket the cost of living. People who couldn't afford food can now afford food even less. And it goes so badly that Hitler has to intervene. At one point, he blows up during a meeting with Hugenberg and says, "It just won't do that the financial burdens of these rescue measures fall only on the poorest." Like, when Hitler's being like,

• 1:10:07Speaker 00

  Exactly.

• 1:10:08Robert Evans?

  Wow, this is unjust. You're a real dick.

• 1:10:11Speaker 00

  Seriously.

• 1:10:15Robert Evans?

  So Hugenberg,

• 1:10:16Speaker 00

  Fucking Alf.

• 1:10:17Robert Evans?

  For his part, Hugenberg is not afraid to argue with Hitler. And he says, quite literally, "We have to let the poor suffer." That eventually will even out the hardships, but they have to suffer first. This does not work. More Germans go hungry. The economy, which had recovered a lot from the hyperinflation a few years back, plunges. One of the few papers Hugenberg didn't control that was still allowed to operate, nicknamed him the confusionsrat, or confusion consultant.

• 1:10:47Robert Evans?

  As is the case today, the mean nicknames don't hurt Hugenberg's feelings. Ryback describes him as being utterly calloused to the idea of being despised. And it was true that the hatred of-

• 1:10:59Speaker 00

  Oh my god.

• 1:11:00Robert Evans?

  Right, right? I don't-

• 1:11:01Speaker 00

  How do I get like just the tiniest little bit of that energy?

• 1:11:06Robert Evans?

  Uh, yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly. Yeah, I mean, it's, you have to, right? If you're gonna do anything. Unfortunately, he is ignoring the fact that people are angry because he's making them starve.

• 1:11:17Speaker 00

  Right.

• 1:11:18Robert Evans?

  Now, it was true that the left hating him, that doesn't really hurt Hugenberg in this point. They're-

• 1:11:24Speaker 00

  Sure.

• 1:11:25Robert Evans?

  They don't have any gut, any teeth anymore.

• 1:11:26Speaker 00

  Yeah, fuck them.

• 1:11:27Robert Evans?

  But he makes a major tactical error at this point because he chooses to believe, "My money, which Hitler needs, will protect my position relative to Hitler. I'll always be co-equal with him because I'm rich." And that just ain't the way it's gonna play out. I want to quote from Ryback again, summarizing what happens next. "In late June 1933, while Hitler was trying to assuage international concerns about the long-term intentions of his government, Hugenberg appeared in London at an international conference on economic development. To the surprise of everyone, including the other German delegation members present, Hugenberg laid out an ambitious plan for economic growth through territorial expansion. The first step would consist of Germany reclaiming its colonies in Africa," Hugenberg explained.

• 1:12:12Robert Evans?

  "The second would be that people without space would open areas in which our productive race would create living space." The announcement made headlines around the world. "Reich asks for return of African lands at London Parley," reads one New York Times headline. Below that, a subhead continued, "Also seeks other territory, presumably in Europe." Such a funny way to write about what World War II's gonna be? They want Africa back! Also, some other stuff! Maybe in Europe? Who knows?

• 1:12:43Speaker 00

  Oh, Christ.

• 1:12:45Robert Evans?

  Today, we can say, well, Hugenberg was just giving everyone a very accurate warning about what was about to happen. That is what goes down next, right? But Hitler and everyone else-

• 1:12:54Speaker 00

  In so many words.

• 1:12:55Robert Evans?

  Hitler's furious. So is everyone in the German government. For one thing, they don't have an army yet, right? Like, the German army is bullshit at this point. Now, it's strong enough that it could overthrow Hitler, which is a big thing he's scared about, but it cannot conquer anything right now.

• 1:13:12Speaker 00

  Uh huh.

• 1:13:12Robert Evans?

  So they're like, "Why? You're threatening people. You're like threatening to punch somebody, and our arms are both still in fucking traction. Like, we can't, you can't be doing this yet. Like, we have, there's steps before we start acting like this."

• 1:13:25Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:13:25Robert Evans?

  Um, and so Hitler has his other top people try to pull back from Hugenberg's statements. A bunch of other, like, cabinet members start being like, "No, of course, we're not gonna take any Europe. We're not gonna, we're gonna get back in it. We're just trying to fix Germany, baby," you know? Hugenberg is incapable of reading a room, and he doubles and then triples down. He keeps talking about how Germany's going to try to conquer everyone around them.

• 1:13:48Speaker 00

  Oh, my God. What a bad hang.

• 1:13:50Robert Evans?

  The Nazis are like, "Bro, fuck!"

• 1:13:52Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:13:53Robert Evans?

  "Keep that shit on the down-low!"

• 1:13:55Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:13:57Robert Evans?

  Ultimately, the conflict culminates in a cabinet meeting with Hugenberg on one side and everyone else on the other with, this tells you how bad things are, Hitler's the mediator. Okay, okay.

• 1:14:09Speaker 00

  Oh, my God.

• 1:14:12Robert Evans?

  Everybody calm down.

• 1:14:14Speaker 00

  I can't think of a worse mediator in all of human history than Adolf Hitler.

• 1:14:20Robert Evans?

  If Hitler's the guy in the middle trying to keep everybody calm, things are not going to go well.

• 1:14:26Speaker 00

  Hitler's like, meeting gently with Alfie, meeting gently with everyone else.

• 1:14:31Robert Evans?

  He's got a hand on his shoulder, "Hey, buddy, nobody is angry," you know?

• 1:14:34Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:14:36Robert Evans?

  So Hitler still, at this point, has some hesitation of totally dispensing with Hugenberg, uh, and he tries to insist, like, "Hey, if you'll stop, everything's forgiven." You know, he tells the other people in the room, "What already happened is no longer of interest." But Hugenberg, again, refuses to read the room, and he doesn't mediate his language at all. And ultimately, Hitler forces him out of his job as economic dictator in late June 1933. You know, Hugenberg technically resigns, but it's obvious what happened.

• 1:15:05Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:15:06Robert Evans?

  And this is the end of Alfred's major period of influence in the Nazi regime. He will spend the remainder of the Third Reich living at his estate as essentially a small local dictator, right? Like, he's got this little country home with some towns around it, and he just kind of runs things there, right? And the Nazis more or less leave him alone. They make him sell off all his newspapers. He has to sell his media empire, but he gets a good price for it, right? His party is dissolved pretty quickly after this, but he gets to remain a guest member of the Reichstag, which isn't really in charge of anything anymore. It's just sort of a, "We'll let you keep this, because we don't really want to have a fight with you." His wealth and connections did protect him from the Night of Long Knives.

• 1:15:48Robert Evans?

  He's never purged, but he clearly understands, "It's time, I have to stay out of the spotlight if I don't want to lose my money and my nice shit." And that's what he does for the remainder of the Third Reich.

• 1:15:58Speaker 00

  No way.

• 1:15:59Robert Evans?

  Yeah, he's just kind of chilling. And when Hitler shoots himself in that bunker and the Third Reich falls, Hugenberg had been out of direct power long enough that the Allies don't really focus on him as a danger.

• 1:16:11Speaker 00

  Shut up.

• 1:16:12Robert Evans?

  Yeah, no, they, they, they kind of, he does get arrested in 49 as part of like this denazification process, but he gets, he gets basically ruled to be like, "Ah, you weren't really a Nazi. You know what?"

• 1:16:24Speaker 00

  He's really old by then.

• 1:16:26Robert Evans?

  He's old. He dies two years later, but he's never punished.

• 1:16:30Speaker 00

  Oh my god.

• 1:16:31Robert Evans?

  He's allowed to keep his possessions and his business, and he dies, you know, peacefully on March 12th, 1951.

• 1:16:40Speaker 00

  Oh my, did he ever have a family?

• 1:16:42Robert Evans?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah, I think he had some.

• 1:16:44Speaker 00

  Oh, he did.

• 1:16:45Robert Evans?

  I don't think, I don't think, I don't think he thinks much about them, so whatever. I'm not gonna.

• 1:16:49Speaker 00

  Yeah. Oh, I'm sure they hated his guts. He sounds awful.

• 1:16:53Robert Evans?

  He sounds like a real dick. Ah, you know, they, they, they might not have been great themselves.

• 1:16:59Speaker 00

  I'm sure. Yeah. Whoa, wow. What a random piece of shit.

• 1:17:06Robert Evans?

  Yeah. I mean, he's a piece of shit that is very much crafted by his social class and his time. And he's very much, again, he's, he is their, their Elon Musk. He's this guy who as soon as the fascists come into power, gets the job of wiping out the administrative state and completely fucking the economy. And then gets shit canned, right? As soon as he's no longer useful.

• 1:17:30Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah. And I mean, it is true that like, a major difference between him and Elon is that he came from not nothing, but nothing compared to Elon. And so

• 1:17:41Robert Evans?

  No rich dad.

• 1:17:42Speaker 00

  His rise, exactly. And so like, his rise is a little scary because there was like, no warning. He was just like bobbing and weaving, bobbing and weaving his way to this like opportunistic position. And it kinda inspires two feelings like, holy shit, like, who's gonna be the next this guy? And wow, I'm kind of like soothed that more people like this aren't, are not coming up already.

• 1:18:11Robert Evans?

  I mean, they are. This is what Peter Thiel's got a little bit of Hugenberg in him. Musk has a little bit of Hugenberg in him.

• 1:18:18Speaker 00

  No, it's true.

• 1:18:19Robert Evans?

  Well, I think the difference is that, um, number one, most of those guys don't, didn't bother to buy a political party of their own instead.

• 1:18:26Speaker 00

  Or like get involved with weapons manufacturing and like selling weapons all, really?

• 1:18:31Robert Evans?

  I mean, Peter Thiel owns Palantir.

• 1:18:34Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:18:36Robert Evans?

  I mean, weapon, it's a, it's a kind of weapon system. Yeah.

• 1:18:39Speaker 00

  Right, right, right, right, right.

• 1:18:41Robert Evans?

  Yeah. And I mean, Musk hasn't so much gotten involved in that entirely, but like, you know,

• 1:18:46Speaker 00

  But I guess define weapon in the digital age is tricky. Yeah.

• 1:18:50Robert Evans?

  Exactly.

• 1:18:51Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah. Damn. Okay. Fuck. Whoa.

• 1:18:55Robert Evans?

  It's always the same people. Yeah.

• 1:19:00Speaker 00

  Oh, and it's always a dude who has weird, weird face.

• 1:19:07Robert Evans?

  Yep. It's always, it's always a fucking, yeah, some busted weird asshole.

• 1:19:17Speaker 00

  Oh, what a bastard.

• 1:19:23Speaker 00

  Um, wow. Thank you for regaling me with that tale. It was a roller coaster. I'm, I'm, I'm, I keep thinking back on this, on this art exhibit I went to in Zurich where, what's his name? Klumpt? Glup?

• 1:19:38Robert Evans?

  Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. Was it Klumpt?

• 1:19:40Speaker 05

  Krupp.

• 1:19:42Robert Evans?

  No, no, I mean, Krupp was the arm manufacturer, but I think there was a, there's a Klumpt artist. Gustav Klumpt, yeah.

• 1:19:47Speaker 00

  Oh, not, not Gustav Klumpt. I'm talking about the, the weapons manufact- the arms manufacturer.

• 1:19:53Robert Evans?

  Yeah, yeah, that's Krupp.

• 1:19:55Speaker 00

  Krupp?

• 1:19:56Robert Evans?

  Krupp. K-R-U-P-P.

• 1:19:58Speaker 05

  Yeah, Krupp.

• 1:19:59Speaker 00

  Oh, Krupp.

• 1:20:00Robert Evans?

  Yeah, yeah, there's a Krupp family collection of artwork, yeah, that travels around. It's massive.

• 1:20:05Speaker 00

  Yes. Well.

• 1:20:08Robert Evans?

  Then that's where their money came from.

• 1:20:10Speaker 00

  Yeah, that's, that's wild. Cause I, I was just like pondering the, how weird, how weird it was, and this was like the point of the exhibition, to like admire this, these beautiful artworks. I mean, there were like Monets in there and De Gauves in there.

• 1:20:28Robert Evans?

  They got the money to buy them.

• 1:20:30Speaker 00

  Yeah, and like, he was like celebrated as an art collector, like this amazing taste or whatever. And like, the reason he was able to acquire that artwork was because he was like making weapons that ended World War II or made World War II possible and.

• 1:20:46Robert Evans?

  World War I and II, uh, cause Krupp is, Krupp is arming Germany in both, but every one of those paintings represents a pile of corpses of, of teenage boys primarily.

• 1:20:58Speaker 00

  Oh, God.

• 1:20:59Robert Evans?

  It's good. It's good stuff.

• 1:21:01Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:21:03Robert Evans?

  You love to see it. You don't, but you see it.

• 1:21:06Speaker 00

  No.

• 1:21:07Robert Evans?

  You do see it.

• 1:21:13Robert Evans?

  Speaking of what you see, where can people see you?

• 1:21:17Speaker 00

  Yeah, thank you so much for having me. This was awesome. I love, I love, well, I love and I hate and I feel, I feel icky and I feel great about knowing stories like the one you just told me. And if people want to know stories that will make them chortle and also feel a little disturbed, they can find me at Sounds Like a Cult Pod, wherever you stream podcasts. I have another podcast called Magical Overthinkers and I got a bunch of books, Cultish, The Age of Magical Overthinking, I love talking about social science in a cheeky way.

• 1:21:52Robert Evans?

  Uh huh. Excellent. All right, we'll check out Amanda and her work and check out our modern Alfred Hugenbergs as they engage in the process of flaming out and getting forced out by the fascists who are going to use the power given to them by these people to do god knows what. Hopefully, uh, not as much as the last ones. We'll see. Everybody have a great weekend.

• 1:22:23Speaker 00

  Behind the Bastards is a production of Cool Zone Media. For more from Cool Zone Media, visit our website, coolzonemedia.com, or check us out on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Behind the Bastards is now available on YouTube. New episodes every Wednesday and Friday. Subscribe to our channel, youtube.com slash at Behind the Bastards.

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• 1:23:46Speaker 06

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• 1:24:16Speaker 07

  This is an iHeart Podcast. Guaranteed human.