#862: Cathy Lanier, Chief Security Officer of the NFL — From 9th-Grade Dropout to DC's Longest-Serving Police Chief, Protecting the Super Bowl, and Resilience Under Extreme Pressure

Cathy Lanier is the Chief Security Officer of the National Football League, where she oversees security across the league office and all 32 clubs. Before the NFL, she served as Chief of Police of Washington, D. C., from 2007 to 2016 — the first woman in the role and the longest-serving chief in the force's history — where her strategies helped cut violent crime by 21 percent even as the city's population grew 15 percent. This episode is brought to you by: Eight Sleep Pod Cover 5 https://www.eightsleep.com/tim/ sleeping solution for dynamic cooling and heating: EightSleep.com/Tim https://www.eightsleep.com/tim/ Shopify https://shopify.com/tim global commerce platform, providing tools to start, grow, market, and manage a retail business: Shopify.com/tim https://shopify.com/timHelix Sleep https://helixsleep.com/tim premium mattresses: HelixSleep.com/Tim https://helixsleep.com/timWealthfront http://wealthfront.com/Tim high-yield cash account: Wealthfront.com/Tim https://wealthfront.com/Tim New clients get 3.30% base APY from program banks + additional 0.75% boost for 3 months on your uninvested cash (max $150k balance). Terms and conditions apply. The Cash Account offered by Wealthfront Brokerage LLC (“WFB”) member FINRA/SIPC, not a bank. The base APY as of 1/30/26 is representative, can change, and requires no minimum. Tim Ferriss, a non-client, receives compensation from WFB for advertising and holds a non-controlling equity interest in the corporate parent of WFB, which creates a conflict of interest. Individual experiences and outcomes will differ. Instant withdrawals may be limited by your receiving firm and other factors. Investment advisory services provided by Wealthfront Advisers LLC, an SEC-registered investment adviser. Securities investments: not bank deposits, not bank-guaranteed or FDIC-insured, and may lose value. TIMESTAMPS: [00:00] Start. [01:38] Cathy Lanier: from Tuxedo to the top. [03:22] Dad vanishes; Mom holds the line (and takes shorthand to the TV). [08:08] Bused into DC: straight-A student turns chronic truant. [10:37] Married at 15, signed over for $100 off child support. [12:54] The baby-in-the-crib wake-up call. [16:37] GED by a single point; secretary by day, waitress by night. [20:18] The Washington Post ad that changed everything. [20:39] 1990 MPD: into the crack cocaine wars. [23:46] Grandma's gospel: no excuses, damned for doing. [26:23] Mount Pleasant riots: trial by brick, and a better-way epiphany. [33:23] Donny Exum's nudge — and sergeant at 26. [38:56] Being a woman on the '90s force: harassment and the 90-day dodge. [49:38] Marion Barry exits, Chuck Ramsey enters. [51:08] Lieutenant: the sweet spot. Captain: the desk (but keep the cuffs). [56:58] 9/11 and the surprise transfer to Special Ops. [58:07] Mentors lend confidence — and a counterterrorism bureau built from scratch. [1:00:14] Live Sarin, VX, and training with bioweapons legends. [1:02:22] Text the 50, get the 411: the tip line gambit. [1:03:36] Cultivating sources: the white Escalade payoff. [1:09:02] Attention to detail: OCD as a superpower. [1:10:43] Teletubby pagers to smartphones — and the Thomas Maslin reckoning. [1:15:14] NFL security: the scope of "everything." [1:17:10] Red teaming, explained. [1:18:53] NFL vs. MPD: diversity and complexity that goes to 11. [1:21:24] The book club: The Tipping Point and Blink. [1:23:32] Decisions under pressure — and with incomplete information. [1:28:34] Billboard wisdom: it's not what happens; it's what you do. [1:30:08] Parting thoughts. * For show notes and past guests on The Tim Ferriss Show https://tim.blog/podcast, please visit tim.blog/podcast https://tim.blog/podcast/?utm_source=podcast&utm_medium=podcast&utm_campaign=podcast-description. For deals from sponsors of The Tim Ferriss Show https://tim.blog/podcast, please visit tim.blog/podcast-sponsors https://tim.blog/podcast-sponsors Sign up for Tim’s email newsletter (5-Bullet Friday) at tim.blog/friday https://go.tim.blog/5-bullet-friday-1/. For transcripts of episodes, go to tim.blog/transcripts https://tim.blog/transcripts. Discover Tim’s books: tim.blog/books https://tim.blog/books. Follow Tim: Twitter: twitter.com/tferriss https://twitter.com/tferriss Instagram: instagram.com/timferriss https://instagram.com/timferriss/ YouTube: youtube.com/timferriss https://www.youtube.com/timferriss Facebook: facebook.com/timferriss https://www.facebook.com/TimFerriss/ LinkedIn: linkedin.com/in/timferriss http://linkedin.com/in/timferriss See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Speaker 00

  Hello, boys and girls, ladies and germs. This is Tim Ferriss. Welcome to another episode of The Tim Ferriss Show. Greetings from Austin, Texas. My job is, as always, to deconstruct world-class performers, to tease out how they do what they do. My guest today I have wanted to have on for years. Her name is Cathy Lanier. Cathy Lanier is the Chief Security Officer of the National Football League. You may know it as the NFL, where she oversees security across the league office and all 32 clubs. There is a lot that goes into that, not to mention the Super Bowl. Before the NFL, she served as Chief of Police of Washington DC. From 2007 to 2016, she was the first woman in the role and the longest-serving chief in the force's history.

• 0:43Speaker 00

  Her strategies helped cut violent crime by 21%, even as the city's population grew 15%. She's a graduate of the FBI National Academy and holds a master's in National Security Studies from the Naval Postgraduate School. Everything related to Cathy Lanier is a study in resilience and endurance and applying technology and systems-level thinking to everything. So it is uncommon that you get to hear anything from Kathy online or elsewhere, so I was very, very grateful to have this time with her. Please enjoy, without further ado, this wide-ranging conversation with Cathy Lanier.

• 1:23Speaker 00

  At this altitude, I can run flat out for a half mile before my hands start to shake.

• 1:30Speaker 01

  Can I answer your personal question?

• 1:32Tim Ferriss?

  No, this is an inappropriate time.

• 1:34Speaker 01

  What if I did the opposite?

• 1:36Speaker 03

  I'm a cybernetic organism, living tissue over metal endoskeleton.

• 1:48Speaker 00

  Kathy, it is so lovely to see you, and thanks for making the time. Really nice to see you again.

• 1:53Speaker 04

  Glad to finally connect. It was nice to see you too, Tim.

• 1:56Speaker 00

  And I was going back and forth on where to start this, and I think I'm just going to follow the tried and true and begin at the beginning here. And maybe we should start with tuxedo and just give people sort of a snapshot of where you grew up, how you grew up, you know, all those dreams of being in law enforcement and...

• 2:23Speaker 00

  I'm partially kidding, of course, because I know a little bit of the backstory. But can you tell people about the beginning?

• 2:29Speaker 04

  It's important, I think, for context about the choices I made in my life. Like everybody on this planet, the way you're raised, your family, your environment has so much influence on the way you do things as an adult. So, so my parents married right after high school, first boyfriend, girlfriend, you know, so right after high school. My father was a firefighter, went in the fire department. My mother was a secretary. She went to work for the federal government. Dream, you know, back in the 50s, being married at 18 is perfectly normal. So they got married, bought a home, started having children. They had three kids. I'm the youngest of the three. After I was born, I think they realized that a secretary and a firefighter's salary does not exactly cover childcare for three kids.

• 3:12Speaker 04

  So they couldn't afford the childcare for three kids for both of them to work. So my mother took a leave of absence from work. She didn't eventually go back, but she took a 10-year leave of absence after I was born. And then when I was two, my mother took us to my grandparents for the weekend. And when we came home, my father was gone. He had taken the car, left my mom with three kids and no income, literally, because she was not working at the time. So life changed pretty dramatically for us then. I was, again, I was two. I don't remember a lot of detail early on, but I do remember as a child growing up over that next 10 years, my mom was home with us. Really just a wonderful childhood. My mother was always there.

• 3:52Speaker 04

  She helped with homework and she would take me to soccer practice and basketball practice and majorette practice. I mean, she was always with us and she was just a wonderful, loving, caring mom. And we didn't have a lot. You know, we lived on $350 a month. My father's eventually paid child support. So we had a lot of support from the church and from friends and family. But it was a fun childhood for me. I mean, my mom was with me and I think she was, provided a lot of stability for my brothers and I. And then when I was getting ready to go from back then, this is back before middle schools, you went, you know, elementary school, junior high school, high school. So from sixth grade, in sixth grade, you leave elementary school and you go to junior high school. So I was 12 years old, 13 years old, becoming a teenager.

• 4:38Speaker 04

  We were going to a new school. I was going to seventh grade. My mother went back to work. I was the youngest at the time at thirteen. She felt like we were old enough to be latchkey kids and come home and let us in, be home for a couple hours every day until she got home from work. So she went back to work in her same role, working for her same boss that she left ten years earlier, which is pretty amazing.

• 4:56Speaker 00

  That is amazing.

• 4:57Speaker 04

  In fact, that whole ten-year period while my mother was off, also important is how it frames my context of things is during that ten years when my mom was home, I remember her sitting in front of the TV and taking shorthand to the television and she would get our favorite records and she would write down in shorthand all the words and then she would sit at the table and type them all up and give us the words so we could sing along with our songs. And, you know, I thought it was just mom doing fun things for us, but it was her keeping her skills. My mom, when she went back to work after a ten-year break in service, she still took shorthand at like ninety-six words a minute and still could type over a hundred words a minute. So

• 5:31Speaker 00

  Wow.

• 5:33Speaker 04

  Just a wonderful example of work ethic for us. She knew she needed to go back to work and wanted to go back to work as soon as possible and she wanted to be on her game. So, great childhood, but when I went, was moving to junior high school, my mom went back to work. So I kind of lost that guardian, that best friend, like at a critical time, right? Like I'm becoming a teenager. We were going to a new school. They were busing back in those days. So I was being bused into a really tough neighborhood in Washington DC.

• 6:01Speaker 00

  From Maryland to Washington DC, yeah.

• 6:04Speaker 04

  Right on the border of DC.

• 6:05Speaker 00

  Yeah, let me pause you for one second. I'm just thinking, trying to put myself, which is impossible for me to do, of course, in your mom's shoes. You guys return to the house, no car, dad's gone, three kids. Have you spoken to her? Or do you have any best guesses as to the other things that helped her hold everything together in terms of resilience or support or anything else? I mean, I suppose that necessity is the mother of invention on some level, but have you ever spoken to her about that?

• 6:40Speaker 04

  I did. And, you know, it's funny, my mother was very passive, sweet, just kind of a very quiet, internal person. And in my entire life, I never saw my mother cry. Never, never. I mean, under any circumstances, when I was, I'm sure she did, but I never really saw my mother cry. And my grandmother was completely the opposite. My mom was an only child. Her mother was like a pistol, like Hardcore. So my grandmother was very helpful, but my mother was a rock. I mean, she took care of us. When I tell people now, we lived on food stamps, welfare, church brought us baskets of food for the holidays. We didn't have a car for many years. We finally got a car. It didn't have heat. It used to break down every time we went out in it. You know,

• 7:25Speaker 04

  the hot water spigot in our bathroom used to squirt scalding hot water over you if you didn't work careful because it needed a washer and there was nobody to come and fix our, that washer, you know. But we had a wonderful childhood. My mother was just solid. She loved her kids and she was a beautiful, beautiful woman. And I always ask her why she didn't ever date. And she's like, my kids were my life and I didn't want anybody around my children that didn't think of them as the same priority that I thought of them. So I think her resilience was really just steady for her family. I think her family was her motivation and nothing was gonna disrupt her commitment there.

• 8:04Speaker 00

  Yeah, the singular focus. So I interrupted you. You were saying

• 8:07Speaker 04

  That's okay.

• 8:08Speaker 00

  There's this transition point. You're bussing in to Washington DC and you've sort of lost your guardian, in a sense, at that point. So if you wouldn't mind picking up there.

• 8:20Speaker 04

  Again, we were being Bused into a neighborhood. The idea at the time was to racially integrate neighborhoods. I lived in a very small industrial neighborhood, like an industrial park right on the border of Washington DC. Literally, there was a train that ran right behind my house in the backyard. On the other side, that train tracks was Washington DC. We were on the Maryland side. So they were bussing us to a school on the border of Northeast Washington to integrate, racially integrate the schools. So each day when our bus would pick us up and take us to school, when our bus would pull up in front of the school, everything in most big cities, I would say, but in Washington for sure, is very neighborhood based. So when our bus would pull up in front of the school and we would get out as the Maryland kids coming to the school, as soon as we'd get off the bus, we'd get jumped.

• 9:04Speaker 04

  Like every day, there was a fight. You know, there was just, it was a terrible change. All the way through school, I was in the talented and gifted program, straight A student, loved school, and now I'm being Bused into school where the kids that we were going to school with hated us. It was very racially charged. You know, it was agonizing, you know, to go to school because you had to fight just to get from the bus to the classroom. So my mom would go, her bus would, it's funny now, it wasn't funny then, but her bus would pick her up on the corner at seven o'clock in the morning, and my bus would pick me up on the other corner at seven fifteen. So we'd both go out to the bus stop together in the morning, and she would wait for her bus, I'd wait for my bus. She'd get on her bus and she'd ride by me and I'd wave, and then one of my older friends who had a car

• 9:48Speaker 04

  would come and pick me up, and we would go skip school for the day. I at least would skip the first half, like I would skip the first few periods so I didn't have to go through that agonizing, you know, fight every morning.

• 10:01Speaker 00

  Rough entry.

• 10:03Speaker 04

  So I went from, you know, a talented and gifted student with straight As to failing literally every subject the first quarter of seventh grade. So I was chronically truant. I think I was averaging nineteen days a quarter that I was actually showing up for school. My mother didn't know because the school never notified her, and by the time she got home from work at six P M., we were all sitting around like pretending to do our homework. So my poor mother had no idea until about midway through the eighth grade, I was so chronically truant that I was failing all of my major subjects. So meanwhile, while I'm skipping school, I'm hanging out with the wrong people. Much older crowd, friends of my older brother and older, you know, just an older crowd and just getting in trouble.

• 10:46Speaker 04

  And I fall in love with a much older boyfriend at the time, you know, think I'm in love and we want to get married and run away and get married. And so by the time I was in the ninth grade, I'm fourteen years old, found myself pregnant. My boyfriend at the time had given me a diamond ring, we were engaged, we're going to get married. So we run away. He was twenty-six at the time, I was fourteen.

• 11:09Speaker 04

  My mother, when she finds out, was gonna have him arrested. She was gonna put him in jail. So I run away from home and think, well, we've got this. We're gonna get married and we're gonna have the baby and everything's gonna be great. The mind of a 14-year-old. Obviously, things didn't work out that way. So interestingly, I went to my father, who had been out of the picture most of my life, and asked for him to sign for me to get married. Because of my age, one of my parents had illegally signed over my legal guardianship to my husband. So they literally signed over my legal guardianship to my husband. So my dad, thinking he would have one less child to pay child support for, because once he signed over my guardianship, he

• 11:51Speaker 00

  Cuts the child support bill.

• 11:54Speaker 04

  Paid $100 left a month in child support. So he signed over my legal guardianship to my husband. We got married the day after my 15th birthday. I was eight months pregnant at the time. So I guess fast forward a little bit. A year and a half later, I was back at home. My mother was taking me to GED classes at night. I was sneaking to go to GED classes when I was still married. My husband didn't approve of me going to school. So, once we separated, my mom made sure I stayed in school, got my GED. And she would bring her typewriter home from work and she taught me how to type on the kitchen table. So she taught me how to type and take a little shorthand and I went and got a job as a secretary. I lied about my age. I went and got a job as a secretary when I was 16.

• 12:37Speaker 04

  So started working as a secretary and then worked as a waitress in the evening in a bar. Also lied about my age to get into, uh, to work in a bar. That was the only option up in my, the area where I was working. So for the next several years, I worked two jobs as a secretary and a waitress. And I, you know, my motivation really was my son. It was kind of a significant moment for me and I've had a few in my life. When my son was born, I had never babysat before. I'd never held a baby. I didn't know anything about babies or children. And when he was born, he was such a good baby. His crib was at the end of my bed in my bedroom. And I'd wake up in the morning and he'd be awake and he'd just be looking at me, waiting for me to wake up. Right? Not crying, not nothing.

• 13:22Speaker 04

  He would just be looking at me. So about three weeks into this, yeah, about three weeks into this experiment, I'm looking at him one morning and it just dawns on me for the first time that I'm a parent. And that that helpless little baby was completely relying on me. And my mother was always stressed the importance of education and work to us. And here I was, you know, my husband didn't allow me to go to school. I would never be able to get a job. And I'm looking at this poor little innocent baby and I'm thinking his whole life depends on me. And what am I going to be able to provide with a ninth grade education? And not much. That was a aha moment.

• 14:04Speaker 00

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• 16:37Speaker 00

  I'm gonna resist the temptation to ask 300 questions about the last few minutes that you shared, because we'll end up spending all of our time there if I do that. But I am curious, for you, I'm trying to put myself in your shoes at that young age. When you, and we don't need to get into the details unless you'd like to share, but when you separated from your then-husband, like, when that happened, what did you think was going to become of you? Like, what did you envision your path would be at that point? I have to imagine that it would have just been... Incredibly challenging. I don't know. You can't believe everything you read on the internet,

• 17:21Speaker 00

  but I read that when you were a young girl, you dreamed of being a lawyer. I don't know if that's true or not. And then flash forward, you go through this entire tumultuous experience, and you land back at home. Where did you think your life was headed? Where did you think you were headed at that point?

• 17:41Speaker 04

  I knew that with a ninth grade education and a single mom, that I had zero chance of being able to do what I thought was most important in the world, and that's take care of my son. And when I first moved back home, I got my GED, but I still was not able to easily find a job at my age. It was, you know, 16, I'm 17. I had to wait till I was 16 and nine months to take the test to get the GED. Interestingly, you needed 255 to pass the test. I got 256. I passed it by one point.

• 18:11Speaker 00

  Oh, my God.

• 18:12Speaker 04

  Just another little footnote of my life.

• 18:15Speaker 00

  Sliding door, these sliding door moments. Holy cow, right?

• 18:19Speaker 04

  My mother had always stressed the importance of education and work. So I knew I had to go back to school. And I wanted to go to college. I didn't want my son to be subject to the same crappy neighborhoods and the same crappy schools that I went to. I wanted him to have a real chance. And I knew if I was going to do that, I had to go back to school and get a college education. If I didn't do that, I was standing in the same food stamp line my mother stood in with me. I remember the first day I went to get food stamps, going to the big white building by Prince George's Plaza, right near my home, and standing in the same line with my son that I stood in with my mom when I was a kid. And I was like, this is not my path. This can't be my path. So I just, when I got my job as a secretary, they offered tuition reimbursement to go to college. So I started a community college. I just started taking one class a semester.

• 19:02Speaker 04

  And that's where it started, one class a semester, and they reimbursed me for it.

• 19:07Speaker 00

  I recall, I mean, for people who don't have contacts, we've been trying to schedule this for a while. And understandably, you got a lot of balls to juggle. And I remember hearing just pieces of your story. This was, God, it has to be, what, more than a year ago now, I'm sure. Time flies, but it's been a long while. And I just remember thinking to myself, God, I hope someday that we can have this conversation on the podcast. So I want to thank you again for doing it. How do you then go from there? What is the connective tissue, sort of the catalyzing events that ultimately get you into law enforcement?

• 19:48Speaker 00

  What are the first few dominos that get tipped over that start to push you in that direction?

• 19:54Speaker 04

  So to be fair, my family's a public service family. My father was firefighter. My oldest brother had become a firefighter right out of high school. My other brother was a police officer. I was working as a secretary. I was taking that one class this semester, working as a secretary, trying to get my son in private school. I wanted him in private school. I did not want him going to those schools. I was still living in the same crappy neighborhood, but I wanted my son in a good school. And I saw an ad, I was 23 years old, I saw an ad in the Washington Post for the Metropolitan Police Department, they're hiring. And what caught my attention is the full page ad in the Post, the half of the page was the tuition reimbursement. I'm like, oh my God, tuition reimbursement, I'm paying for one class a semester. I'm gonna take me 30 years to get a degree. So I went with

• 20:39Speaker 04

  a friend and we went and stood in line. They were hiring a thousand cops. This was during the crack cocaine wars in Washington, early 1990. So 500 murders a year, DC was known as the murder capital of the world at the time. So I just went and stood in line with a thousand other people, went and took the test. And I came out, I want to say I came out like 60 out of a thousand people on that test. So they called me right away. I was the only white female in the room. This is back in the early 90s, Washington DC was about 89% African American, right? So I felt the same drive my mother felt taking care of us is that I have a son that needs me, he needs me to provide for him, and the only

• 21:22Speaker 04

  way I'm gonna do this is get a good job, government job, not a bad option, and go back to school and get my degree. So I got hired by the Metropolitan Police in 1990, started walking a foot beat. My first day out of the academy was the Mount Pleasant riots. So my first day out of the academy, I went to work and didn't come home for five days. It was great.

• 21:41Speaker 00

  Okay, we're gonna double click on that and come right back to Mount Pleasant. But before we do, I want to know what the entrance exam or qualification exam was like. You mentioned the GED and like just by the skin of your teeth, Getting in, you know, passing the hurdle. And then it sounds like you've not to, it's not a very technical term, but kind of crushed the examination that you took that ultimately placed you at 60 out of 1,000. What was that test like?

• 22:15Speaker 04

  So remember now, when I started going, taking classes at Prince George's Community College, my goal was to be a lawyer. I wanted to be an attorney. You know, I started out wanting to be a secretary like my mom. Then, once I got into the workplace, I realized I wanted bigger, better things. So I wanted to be an attorney. So I was taking political science, philosophy, you know, a lot of those kind of courses that my, getting all my generals out of the way, community college. So by the time I got to the Metropolitan Police Department at 23, I had three years of college courses. But the exam for entry into policing, now back in those days, they only required a high school diploma or an equivalent. So you didn't need college. So the, the entry exam was a lot of things you would expect for law enforcement.

• 22:58Speaker 04

  You do a lot of multiple choice questions, you know, you have to be able to read and comprehend well. So reading comprehension was a big part of it. You have to do some basic math, right? So you have to understand math, but there was a lot of problem solving type questions. So, you know, they flash a photo in front of you and then they say, you know, you know, there's a photo inside of a department store. And then, yeah, okay, you just walked into this department store and there's been a robbery. What is it you noticed in that quick three seconds you had to look at that photo? What do you remember? What time was it on the clock? You know, what color was the lady's shoes that was standing at the register, right? Like, so there was, you know, reading comprehension, math, problem solving. And then a good bit of, are you paying attention? Do you have the detail to pay attention and do the things that you need to do as a police officer?

• 23:43Speaker 04

  Which, much of which you learned as a cop.

• 23:45Speaker 00

  Hmm, but it seems like you had either developed or innately possessed. And maybe I'm reaching, but I don't, I mean, I maybe not. I mean, if, was there anything in that test that highlighted, for lack of a better descriptor, like superpowers, strengths of yours? That came into like full fruition later where you're like, okay. If I look at the recipe, some of the ingredients of the recipe that ultimately contributed to my success, were any of them sort of revealed in that test in any way? Or not really?

• 24:18Speaker 04

  Yeah, actually. Great question. Actually, it's a very good question. I don't get a lot of interviews to ask the types of question you're asking. I think it's an excellent question. I would say the two things that have helped me in that exam, that have helped me most of my law enforcement career, my grandmother instilled in me, you know, she spent a lot of time with us growing up as well. Two things, problem solving being a big part of that is, is like, you never make excuses. When bad things happen, don't make excuses. You put yourself in that position, you found yourself here, it is nobody else's fault but yours. You know, I'm not an excuse person. I don't make excuses. If I find myself in a bad situation, I did something to get myself here, and I'm gonna get myself out. And that was the way she taught

• 25:01Speaker 04

  us. You get yourself in, you get yourself out. And the other thing she taught me was, she's like, you know, you're gonna be damned if you do and damned if you don't. You better be damned for doing. Like, so you act. You always act. You don't let your circumstances dictate for you. You act and you take action and you do. You don't wait for somebody else to do for you. And those things were really part of that problem solving exercise when you're coming on the police department. And it's certainly your problem solving exercise every day you're on the police department. It certainly was for the next 27 years for me. You can't avoid consequences. There's consequences for everything that happens. Every decision you make has consequences. You can't avoid consequences. But you can choose what you do after those things happen.

• 25:46Speaker 00

  I imagine you've probably not met him, but I interviewed someone named Jaco Willink, who's a former Navy SEAL commander, many years ago. It was the first time he ever did a public interview. And he wrote a book called Extreme Ownership. And I feel like your grandmother and what she instilled in you is, in a nutshell, exactly the type of high-agency thinking that Jaco talks about. It's the same thing. Wow.

• 26:16Speaker 04

  My grandmother said, there's two types of people in the world. Used people and people who are accountable. And I'm gonna be the accountable.

• 26:23Speaker 00

  So let's come back to Mount Pleasant. For people who don't have the historical context, what were the Mount Pleasant riots? And you said, right before I asked about the test, you said it was great. And if that is actually not sarcastic statement, but a real sort of statement of how you felt, I want to know why that was the case. But let's start with just a little bit of History for people who who aren't familiar, I certainly wasn't with the Mount Pleasant riots.

• 26:52Speaker 04

  When I said it was great, in terms of being a rookie right out of the academy and understanding what you've got yourself into.

• 26:59Speaker 00

  Right.

• 26:59Speaker 04

  It was, here's what you've got yourself into, right? Like, you went to work today and you're not going home for five days. So, there was, the night before my first day out of the academy, there was a pair of police officers walking, a foot patrol in our patrol district. They tried to place a gentleman under arrest for drinking in public. He was a Latino male, didn't speak English. We had a big problem in our city back in those days. Law enforcement, we had very few people in the department that spoke Spanish. We had a huge Latino population, there was a big gap in our community. So, it's really difficult to do any kind of effective policing if you're not communicating with the people in the community, and we were not. So, when this officer was trying to place this person under arrest, during the handcuffing

• 27:41Speaker 04

  the the subject, after one handcuff is on, he turned around, pulled the knife on the officer, and the officer shot. So, he was shot with one handcuff on. So, the partner of the officer who shot, rolled him over, put the other handcuff on, took the knife away, called paramedics. Alls the people saw was a handcuffed person who'd been shot. So, the Latino community in that neighborhood immediately began gathering on the street, large crowd. This all happened around 11:30 at night. So, by the time I got into the station for 5:30 roll call, I show up at 5:30 in the morning, the riot had broken out around 1 a.m. They had burned several police cars, there was stores that were looted and on fire, and there was a big, big deal down in Mount Pleasant.

• 28:25Speaker 04

  So, when I got to work my first day, I walked into the station and said, "Hi, I'm Kathy Lanier, I'm the, you know, new rookie from the academy." They threw me a gas mask, and they told me to go out and get in the van. They said, "Hop over the counter, go out the back door and get in that van." And I was like, "Okay." So, I hopped over the counter and went and got in that van. I was sitting with Fifteen other cops with gas masks on and big riot sticks and they took us down and they dumped us off on the corner of Mount Pleasant Park Road and it was fully engulfed in fires and looting and, you know, people were throwing bottles and bricks and stones at us. We had little helmets they had given us as we were hopping out of the van. And I didn't have a radio because rookies weren't allowed to have radios at the time, right?

• 29:07Speaker 04

  I had not been trained how to use the radio. So my partner had the radio. So my lifeline was on my partner. But we stood there online and literally got pelted with bricks and bottles and, I mean, over the course of five days, it was a trial by fire for sure. But it was a big, it was a big learning experience for me because I do, I understood the frustration. I understood the frustration. That whole community of Mount Pleasant were all Latino. They didn't speak English. The cops didn't speak to them very well. I mean, nobody could really communicate with, but the cops were pushing people around and there was no way to try and get the story straight and really no effort to get the story straight, right? To understand the frustration. So it was a big learning experience for me as I worked

• 29:51Speaker 04

  my way up the ranks to understand how important inclusion is in the community. If you're a police officer and you are not embedding yourself in that community and understanding who the people are in that community and what their needs are and how to communicate, you're really not going to be successful.

• 30:07Speaker 00

  We're gonna, I imagine, revisit that at some point because it seems to be a consistent thread through a lot of the work they've done. But I want to spend a little bit more time on Mount Pleasant. I am curious, I suppose, yet again, what that maybe showed you about yourself or just highlighted about you constitutionally or personality wise? Because I would imagine some people could get dropped in that environment after they just signed up. They're like, hey, I'm just here for tuition reimbursement. Holy shit. Like, I'm getting hit with bricks. Like, this is not exactly what I thought my first day was gonna be. And they're out, right? Like, I have to imagine that there are some people who would be closer to that.

• 30:52Speaker 00

  Maybe they didn't quit, but they're probably closer to that end of the spectrum. And do you thrive in particular in intense environments? I wonder, right? Because in my case, constitutionally, sort of out of the box, little things, especially interpersonal things, bother me that are kind of trivial, frankly. Like, I get all wound up about very stupid things. But in crisis situations, you know, the car accident in front of me, some guy's got his leg blown apart, or whatever, I actually do really, I do very well in those environments. I don't know why that is. I really have no idea. But was there anything that you noticed about yourself in that type of environment, in

• 31:37Speaker 00

  those types of circumstances?

• 31:38Speaker 04

  I think the thing for me that I thrive on is, as we're dropped out down there, and they're giving us the riot sticks and the helmets and the gas mask, and they're shooting canisters of gas into the crowd, knowing what started this and how this all blew up, I'm thinking to myself, we're not going about this the right way. Like, I was a rookie, I know nothing about policing, other than what I was taught in the academy. So by no means did I think I was smarter than the guy making the command decisions, right? But I'm just looking at it from my perspective and going, this is just not the right way to do this. Like, we're not gonna win here. This is not a win situation. This should be done differently. And I just always felt like, from the minute I hit the ground, like, watching, I don't analyze the way that we were doing things, and thinking, why are we doing this this way? Like, there's a better way to do these things.

• 32:23Speaker 04

  And so, that's the way I felt in Mount Pleasant, my first day on the job. You know, really hard to explain, I just felt like, there's a problem to be solved here, and we're not going about it in a problem-solving manner. We're going about it with brute force. Brute force doesn't always work. So it intrigued me. And I, every day after that, once the riots were over, I started walking a foot beat in the city. Every single day I went to work, I got to problem solve for six, seven, eight times a day. You know, and calls for service, 911 calls, you responded, you know, people who are in crisis, people who need help, and, you know, you get to try and help think through that, help solve the problem. That's, that's what I enjoyed doing. Frustrating, when you're at the bottom of the totem pole, and you're the line officer, right? You can't, you're in a chain of command, you can't make but certain decisions.

• 33:06Speaker 04

  But I did feel like, every single day I went to work, I made a difference in someone's life, no matter how small.

• 33:12Speaker 00

  And this was around, tell me if I'm getting this wrong, but around 1990 or early, early 90s?

• 33:18Speaker 04

  Ninety, 1990.

• 33:19Speaker 00

  1990.

• 33:20Speaker 04

  Yep, 1990.

• 33:22Speaker 00

  And you're working your way up the ranks. When did you first, and we'll certainly talk about the good, the bad and the ugly of that timeframe in some respects, but when did your first real mentor show up? I have different names from doing homework in front of me. I've got, if I'm saying it correctly, you know, Sonia Proctor. I've got Charles Ramsey who might show up a little bit later. I'm not sure exactly on the chronology, but were there any critical figures in the first few years who were helpful to you? Or was it really just executing, getting the job done, delivering and working your way up?

• 34:07Speaker 00

  I'm wondering when your first mentor of sorts or kind of, I don't want to say guardian, it might not be the right word, but influential figure showed up within policing?

• 34:19Speaker 04

  So I was an officer and I loved my job. I got, once I moved my way, worked my way up, I was foot patrol the first, you know, several months. And then I went to motorcycle school and I got trained to ride a motor. So then I was on a motorcycle. I want to be mobile if I could get around and, you know, I love the adrenaline, 911 calls, getting out there, being first on the scene. And, and then I got moved up a little bit more in seniority and I was in a patrol car. And I used to get on the radio and I'm like, all right, dispatcher, I'm in service. Give me, stack me up. Give me all the calls you got pending, you know, that's been sitting there waiting. I'll take them all. So I had a lieutenant who, he was like a SWAT team commander, a guy who got promoted to lieutenant and they sent him out to patrol, which is like a slap in the face to a SWAT guy, right? Like they hate.

• 35:02Speaker 00

  For sure.

• 35:03Speaker 04

  He'd come to my district and he called me in his office one day. He's like, I hear you on the radio out there. He's like, you're really humping. I was like, yeah, I love this job. This is great, fun. He's like, you know, you're coming up on three years. You're going to be eligible for sergeant. You should take that sergeant's test. And I was like, I want to do that. I like my job, like what I'm doing. If I take sergeant test and I'm going to get moved somewhere. He's like, no, no, you need to take the sergeant's test. Why would I want to do that? And he's like, well, you want to make more money, right? And I'm like, that's a good point. And he said, and once you start taking these promotional exams, it gives you more opportunities to influence the things, you know, I, you know, I hear you, you know, you're trying to change some things. Now why don't you? Take that exam. So he pushed me pretty hard and when the test announcement came out,

• 35:48Speaker 04

  he said, come on, I'm gonna give you a ride. Let's go pick up your book. You know, you have an eight month window to study. He's like, let's go pick up your books. So I was like, all right. I was a little intimidated. I'm like, okay. So I took that sergeant's test. I was eligible for sergeant at three years. I took the first sergeant's test. There was eight hundred and ninety people that were eligible that we took the test altogether. After the written exam, you go to an assessment phase where you do a bunch of oral interviews and exercises and paper exercises. And I end up coming out number thirteen out of eight hundred and ninety for that. So I got promoted right away. A very young sergeant, twenty six years old, three years on the job. I had a master patrol officer working for me that had more years on the job than I was old. He had twenty six years of the job. I was twenty six years old.

• 36:33Speaker 04

  So that was the first mentor and he really, he remained a mentor for me for most of my career.

• 36:40Speaker 00

  What was his name?

• 36:41Speaker 04

  Donny Exum.

• 36:42Speaker 00

  Donny. I mean, man, these stories are so critical, right? Because whenever people are self-made in many respects and at the same time, you just have to wonder sometimes if you didn't have these intervening figures. Nothing like your experience, but I had a pretty miserable public school experience when I was growing up. And ultimately hadn't even thought of private school. And it was, there was one math teacher who was basically like, you need to get the hell out of here. And I was like, yeah, yeah, yeah. Out of here to where? Right? And he just kept harping on me. And then there was one other person who chimed in. Then I had two people and I was like, oh, okay, maybe I should take a look at this. And it was just like, if that had not happened, who knows? It's just a lot of question marks.

• 37:25Speaker 04

  Those mentors are critical.

• 37:26Speaker 00

  What does a sergeant do? I'm embarrassed to admit that I have no idea. Like, what does a sergeant do?

• 37:32Speaker 04

  This is one of the things that police departments do right. Now that I'm in the private sector, I wish the private sector had similar structures. So. Once you make sergeant, you start as a first line supervisor. So they'll give you eight to 10 people that you're responsible for. So you're the squad sergeant. Like you have a squad that's assigned to you, those eight to 10 people, they report to you. So I'm responsible for making sure when we pop at a roll call and we hit the street, that my squad of eight is doing what they're supposed to do. They're clearing their calls, they're taking reports like they're supposed to. If they get in a situation where they don't know what to do, go over to radio call for me. I go down and help them work through that situation and I help teach them how to manage these situations. So you're first line supervision. You're right there every day on the street with the 911 responders and you're helping them manage those calls and you're helping them

• 38:17Speaker 04

  manage how to solve those problems. You're signing arrest paperwork. You know, if you're making arrests, wait a minute, let me look at all of the probable cause you have here before we put this person in handcuffs. Or if you've got the person in handcuffs and I get on the scene, let's review what you got here. I think before we take somebody to jail, let's make sure we we've met the DC code. We know that you've got a legitimate arrest here. So you start kind of managing a small group and then the next level is manager. Then you become a lieutenant and then they give you like 40 people to manage and you start making little bigger decisions. Now you're scheduling, you're assigning, you're working through warrants and things like that. So it's a very gradual progression.

• 38:55Speaker 00

  In that timeframe, early 90s or just 90s, I suppose writ large, what was it like being a woman in the police force?

• 39:06Speaker 04

  It was a really tough environment when I first got there. There were a few days in the very beginning when I was an officer that the good thing about the officer, like when I got there, the department was 85, probably percent African American. The city was largely 89% African American. So largely African American, very few, certainly very few white females. It was very few females. So I would think we were about Eleven percent women on the department of 5,000, 5,200, I think, when I came on, size of our department. So very few women, very few white women. It's hard to think back to 1990. Sexual harassment was commonplace. Nobody talked about it. Nobody cared about it. It wasn't an issue. It just, it, it happened every day and you just, you know, you work through it. I grew up with two older brothers, so I

• 39:51Speaker 04

  kind of knew how to navigate it a little bit. You know, I listened, my brothers gave me advice how to deal with some of this. The good thing is, as an officer, you very quickly establish yourself. And I established myself as an officer early on as a worker. Like, I came to work, I did my job. I don't need anybody to do me any favors. You don't need to look out for me. I don't need a partner. I can ride by myself. I'm good. Once I made sergeant, though, the harassment got worse. I had a lieutenant that was really, really sexually harassing. I mean, not just me, but several women. Physical harassment, I mean, like, getting you in a midnight shift in a sergeant's office and closing the door and putting their hands on you and things like that. You know, I remember saying to my boyfriend at the time, I was like, you know what? I got real thick skin. I can take all kinds of comments. I don't mind any of that stuff.

• 40:36Speaker 04

  But I'm not gonna let people put their hands on me. That's just not gonna happen. So the harassment was pretty intense. It was a, it was a really tough environment.

• 40:43Speaker 00

  So what happened?

• 40:45Speaker 04

  So I had a lieutenant. When I made sergeant, I was sent over to southeast Washington. I was patrolling in southeast. I had really a good squad. I worked nights, permanent nights. But I had a lieutenant that was harassing me and some other women, but me pretty intensely. Calling me on the radio, forcing me to drive him around, putting me in a cruiser with them, making me drive him around. Just not letting me do my job. Constant harassment, calling me on the radio, bringing me to the office, making me drive him somewhere, things like that. So I finally, after several times of asking him to leave me alone, I finally filed a sexual harassment complaint. He had put his hand on me several times. So I filed a complaint and I remember going down to the EEO office and filed this complaint and they asked me to write a list of

• 41:28Speaker 04

  anybody who had ever, first of all, before I went down, my partner, one of my fellow sergeants, who was a blackmail officer, said to me one day, we were out riding together, the lieutenant had called me in, and my partner said to me, the other sergeant said, "How long are you gonna let this keep going on before you do something about it?" And I was like, what are you talking about? He's like, I hope you're writing this stuff down. I hope you're gonna say something to somebody because this can't go on like this. So the first, again, a man, not a woman, another male police officer, basically said to me, if you're not gonna stand up for yourself, nobody else is gonna stand up for you. And so when he said that, it clicked, you know, like, he's trying to say, either you're gonna allow this to keep happening, or you don't want it to happen, and you do something about it.

• 42:12Speaker 04

  So I, after that conversation, I filed this complaint. I list all the people who had witnessed, because my harasser made no, no effort to hide it. He made horrible comments and grabbed women in front of others all the time. So I listed seventeen different witnesses, and they did the investigation. And literally, I left the EEO office, I went to court, I had court that day, and I was in court twenty minutes after I left the EEO office for filing my complaint. My harasser, the lieutenant, texted me on my beeper, we had beepers back then, and said, I know what you're doing, and you're not gonna get away with this. So it was supposed to be confidential, but within twenty minutes of leaving the office, the person who was doing my investigation called him and told him that I had made a complaint.

• 42:55Speaker 04

  So I had to go back to work in that environment, one of the most violent areas of Washington, DC. From that day forward, he prohibited me from partnering with anybody. He refused to allow me to ride with anybody else. He continued the harassment. He, you know, came into my office the next day, shut the door and said, look, I know what you're doing, you need to back down, you need to withdraw this complaint, you're not gonna win. Anyway, long story short, they sustained the complaint, so the investigation, all the witnesses I listed, they were all men. I didn't think any of them would tell the truth. Nobody wanted us to go against this higher ranking person. And every single one of them told the truth. They all wrote down what they saw, they all not only talked about what they saw him doing to me, but what they saw him doing to other women. And I was just shocked.

• 43:39Speaker 04

  I always say to women, you don't realize when you're in these scenarios, decent men that observe these things going on, they don't like it either. And, and those other men that I was working with, they didn't like it either. And some of them, this guy had harassed their girlfriends, or their wives, you know what I mean? So that really made an impression on me, that so many of the men that I worked with stood up and did the right thing there. So when it was time for him to be disciplined for this, when we got to trial board... I walk into trial board for the discipline to come down and they told me they had to drop the whole case and throw it out. I'm like, why? What happened? And they said, well, we missed the 90 days in the District of Columbia. You have to bring discipline within 90 days of the day that you knew or should have known

• 44:23Speaker 04

  about the misconduct. They said on this investigation till day 91 and then turned it in. So, literally after all of that, they threw the case out and they said, well, we'll just transfer you. Where do you want to be transferred to? And I was like, I don't want to be transferred. I didn't do anything wrong. Don't transfer me. Transfer him. I didn't do anything. He later had several other complaints come forward and eventually was terminated for a severe case with another, multiple other subordinates later on.

• 44:53Speaker 04

  But I will tell you this. Now, everything above the rank of captain in the police department is appointed, right? You civil service exam for sergeant, lieutenant, and captain. After captain, it's appointed by the chief of police. You're in appointed rank and you're also at will. So if you can get appointed to inspector or commander, but you also can get demoted with no cause either. So I remember one of my mentors, another mentor, a lieutenant, there was a captain and a lieutenant that were both good mentors to me there. The captain of the two mentors I had there pulled me aside after this complaint and said, you did the right thing. He's been harassing women here for years and somebody needed to stand up. So you did the right thing. He said, but just know you'll never make it past the rank of captain. Because that lieutenant was very well connected at the time to the

• 45:38Speaker 04

  chief of police. So very friendly with the chief of police, that whole administration. So I said, that's fine. I wasn't thinking long-term longevity and promotion.

• 45:51Tim Ferriss?

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• 48:12Speaker 00

  That actually ties into what I was going to ask you because it strikes me as an incredibly brave thing to do. I imagine not everyone in your situation would have done that. I mean, in fact, they didn't. I imagine there's a lot of fear around. There could be a lot of fear around the political or job professional repercussions of voicing something like that, especially during a period when that was not common.

• 48:38Speaker 04

  Well, remember, my driver in life, if you think about this, and terrorists work this way. My goal in life is to take care of my son. I'm a single mom. And after he knew I made a complaint, he was threatening my job. He was really making it very difficult for me to come to work. Like, it was terrifying to come to work, you know? And I was fighting for my job. I can't lose my job. I have a son to take care of, and I'm not going to lose my job because somebody wants to be a bully. And that's the motivation. It was terrible. I was sick to my stomach every day. I was going in the bathroom and throwing up. I mean, it was when I got to work and just every time I heard his voice on the radio, it was terrible for me. But I also couldn't afford to lose my job. I was not going to let somebody force me out of my

• 49:22Speaker 04

  my goal. And that, you know, I had a son to take care of, so I couldn't afford that. I was going to fight until I knew that I was safe.

• 49:29Speaker 00

  It's a focusing, forcing function, right? I mean, having that singular priority. So it seems like, I mean, the predictions about you never rising above the rank of, what was it, captain?

• 49:38Speaker 04

  Captain.

• 49:39Speaker 00

  Seems like that fellow wasn't exactly the Nostradamus of predicting the future. So could you walk us through sort of how things progressed and why were you able to continue to excel? Did his prediction just turn out to be completely false?

• 49:56Speaker 04

  No, I think it would have been accurate. I tell you what, the stars aligned for me. So I took sergeant test in three years. I was eligible for lieutenant at five. I took the lieutenant's test in five years. I came in number one on that test. I took the captain's test, seven years. I came in number three on that test. So I got promoted, bang, bang, bang. Three years, five years, seven years. I was the captain in seven years. I would have never gone past the rank of captain in that current administration. And then Marion Barry gets arrested, our mayor.

• 50:23Speaker 04

  Marion Barry is taken out and replaced by the Control Board. The Control Board comes in 1998. I'm a captain at the time. Marion Barry is now taken out of play. The Control Board takes over. They bring in Chuck Ramsey, an outsider who knows nobody in the department. He doesn't know anybody. He's got no clique. He's got no boys. Everybody's fresh. So he comes in as I'm lieutenant, just making captain, takes over the police department as a complete outsider and is doing his assessment of what officials, what command level officials he wanted to have on his team. And he appointed me from the rank of captain to be an inspector to take over a major narcotics branch with less than eight years on the job. I was 29, I think.

• 51:07Speaker 00

  All right. Chuck makes his appearance. Right.

• 51:11Speaker 04

  He's the next big mentor.

• 51:13Speaker 00

  Yeah. Okay. So just for my, honestly, my personal curiosity, because I know, I really know nothing about how police structures work. What is a captain doing? And then what does an inspector do? If you don't mind.

• 51:30Speaker 04

  So again, this is where I think the police department gets right. You're, you spend three years as a patrol officer. You make sergeant. You study really hard. You take the test. You make sergeant. You do go through some school. After you make sergeant, you manage a small group. Then you make lieutenant two years later. You go through the exam process. You go through some schools after that and then you manage a squad of like a platoon of 40. When I was lieutenant, I had narcotics officers, I had detectives and I had patrol. So I didn't just have patrol anymore. I had, you know, detectives, narc and.

• 52:01Speaker 00

  How are those 40 people determined? Is it based on neighborhood or some type of sort of geographic area?

• 52:08Speaker 04

  At that time, it's done differently and over the course of the years it's changed. But at that time it was geographically. So I had patrol district and of that patrol district, I had one third of that patrol district. And I managed every resource for that part of the district. So all three shifts. I had, you know, day work, midnight, evening shift, all three shifts. Those officers are split across those three shifts and they covered all the policing. So not just the 911 responders, the guys in a uniform going to 911 calls, but also your narcotics officers and your detectives that follow up and investigate crimes.

• 52:39Speaker 00

  This is lieutenant?

• 52:41Speaker 04

  That's lieutenant.

• 52:42Speaker 00

  Okay. So lieutenant, is that the first time where you're getting kind of the? Decathletes exposure to all of these different things?

• 52:51Speaker 04

  Yes, and you're also getting exposure to administration. Like, so part of that exam, that promotional exam, is studying administration. You have to learn administration. Like, so if there are municipal regulations that need to be changed, and I'm managing a large part of the portion of the District of Columbia, and I see a municipal regulation needs to be changed, I need to go to the process to petition to change that municipal regulation. How do I go about changing that law? Because I'm seeing firsthand the impact it's having in our neighborhoods. So, police administration starts to become more and more important there. I also now can start influencing policy. I can influence policy for my little piece of the world, right? I decide what my drug enforcement tactics are going to be. I decide how we're going to work in terms of doing warrant service and things like that.

• 53:35Speaker 04

  So, that's where you first start to get a better understanding of influencing how policing actually is carried out.

• 53:42Speaker 00

  Not to minimize the prior steps, but it sounds like the lieutenant role is a very dense learning opportunity. It's just based on the description.

• 53:53Speaker 04

  The best rank on the police department for me was lieutenant. I was able to still go out on the street, support my troops, back up my sergeants, have fun policing and do the policing that I enjoyed. But I also had the ability to change the environment for them, help them, and also influence how we were policing our community. After captain, it gets, you know. So, captain is more, you're strapped to your desk a lot more.

• 54:17Speaker 00

  Yeah, I was gonna say, more, more behind the desk.

• 54:19Speaker 04

  You're reviewing, you know, bad arrests that went, you know, somebody didn't, a sergeant didn't do the right thing, and review the paperwork. Now, you've got a bad arrest, it's got to be detention journal. So, you've got to review and make that decision. You've got to set things up at the courts. You've got to, you know, look at all the disciplinary investigations that come in. You know, officer's getting disciplined for things. You've got to make decisions about that. You sit on trial board, you know, who's going to get disciplined, who's going to get terminated. It's very administrative. You're helping the commander make decisions, community meetings, deployment decisions, and it's not as much fun.

• 54:50Speaker 00

  Yeah. This is, I know a few people in law enforcement, but mostly military, former military guys. And I mean, very similar, right? Some of these guys, they just love being in the field and they're like, ah, got promoted. It's like, I just don't know how I feel about it. They're like very mixed.

• 55:07Speaker 04

  Well, here's the big key. When I went to go change my uniform, so you go to property division, when you get voted, you walk off the stage, you get your birds or whatever you're getting, your clusters or whatever, it's for your new rank. You go to the property division, you get your new rank insignia. When I made captain and I went over to property division to get my new rank insignia, they said, turn in your handcuffs. And I was like, what? Turn my handcuffs? What are you talking about? Well, you don't need those anymore. Like, ah, you're not taking my handcuffs. I'm gonna keep my handcuffs. Right here. Right here. I kept my gun belt, my handcuffs, my extra magazines, all those things that the administrative captains used to turn in. I'm like, no, uh-uh, I'm keeping those stuff.

• 55:45Speaker 00

  Yeah. So let's come back to Chuck and because I'm so unfamiliar with the internal workings, it's hard for me to pick the next sort of flashpoint, maybe a seminal moment for you. I mean, there's a lot to pick from. I'm not sure how to put them in order, not that they have to be in order, but maybe tell me if there's something that we should talk about before this, but you mentioned Chuck pushing you to take tough assignments. Is Special Operations Division, is that a sensible place to hop to next? Or what do you think? Are we skipping some important steps in between?

• 56:24Speaker 04

  When Chuck came in and he initially put me in, I'd only been a captain, I want to say four or five months, and he kind of did a clean out at the top. Like a lot of that old boy network that was there when he got there, they were all people that were long past retirement. So he pushed a lot of the command staff out. So that made him push people up pretty young in their career. So he pushed me up to be the commander of Major Narcotics Branch as an inspector. Like I said, just under eight years on. So I was very young and I had a major role.

• 56:58Speaker 00

  Let's see, what, I'm trying to do the math. How old were you then at that point?

• 57:01Speaker 04

  I want to say it's 30-ish, 30, 31.

• 57:04Speaker 00

  Wow.

• 57:04Speaker 04

  A major narcotics branch.

• 57:05Speaker 00

  That's amazing. That is a lot of responsibility. Yeah.

• 57:08Speaker 04

  And so I went to Major Narcotics Branch. I was there for, so I had Major Narcotics Branch and vehicular homicide. So I managed all the vehicular homicide. Investigative units there for just under two years and then he promoted me again to commander. And I took over a patrol district, the fourth district where Mount Pleasant sits, the patrol district I started in. I went back now and I was the commander of that patrol district. It was the largest residential area in the, in the city of Washington. So I took over that district. I ran that for two years and then Chuck out of way. He called me down to his office and he says, you know, I'm thinking I'm going to send you to SOD. It was nine 11 happens the Friday after nine 11. He says, I think I'm going to send you to special operations division. I was like, you know what? I love being the district commander. I love working in 4D.

• 57:53Speaker 04

  This is my goal was to retire as the commander of 4D. Thanks, but I really like where I am. He's like, oh, okay. And then two days later, a teletype came out transferring me to SOD. So like it wasn't really asking me. He's like, oh, okay.

• 58:08Speaker 00

  He's like, that's a great story. Thank you for that.

• 58:10Speaker 04

  Funny. Glad to hear it. So I took over special ops. Now, special operations division had never had a woman in charge. So that in itself was a little intimidating. But the one thing that when you talk about mentors and I, I know you probably have experienced this like many others is what a mentor does for you is they lend you confidence that you don't have. Like Chuck recognized that I didn't have the confidence. I was like intimidated by this SOD thing. Like I was like, yeah, no. Uh, that, you know, never had a woman in charge. It's a predominantly male. I always say it's the most testosterone in the police departments in SOD, right?

• 58:48Speaker 04

  It's the bomb squad, the SWAT team, harbor, the marine unit, the helicopter unit, aviation, force mounted unit, K9, civil disturbance unit, the presidential protection unit. So it's like nine or 10 different units. So anyway, he recognized that I was intimidated by that and he's like, mm hmm, you're going to go and you're going to do it. He sent me off to a bunch of schools. I went to EOD schools, bombing schools. So I learned how to manage a bomb squad. I learned how to manage a SWAT team and the people there were great. That was my best assignment in my entire career. I spent six years there after nine 11 recreating our special operations division and turning it into a homeland security and counterterrorism unit.

• 59:25Speaker 00

  What made it so good for you? That particular role?

• 59:28Speaker 04

  It was the most complex role I'd ever held. Most of the units I managed, I had to manage three or four different types of specialties. I had to manage nine different specialties and they were highly special. These were highly, you know, sniper teams on the SWAT teams, you know? Negotiations unit, the bomb squad. We were just after 9/11 and we were trying to evolve our department from

• 59:51Speaker 04

  a pre-9/11 police department in the nation's capital to a post-9/11 police department in the nation's capital. We got caught flat-footed on 9/11 and we should not have been. We didn't have the skills, training, equipment and things that we should have had. I always say Timothy McVeigh was, you know, that Oklahoma City bombing was the wake-up call. That's when we should have started changing the way we train and prepare our police officers, but we didn't, right? And then there's the first World Trade Center bombing. That was another wake-up call. We didn't respond to that. It was not until 9/11 that the nation's police departments in the largest cities really realized that we have to be prepared for this type of asymmetric threat that we're now facing. So when Chuck put me in charge of SOD, he said, "I want you to create the homeland security

• 1:00:36Speaker 04

  capabilities that we need, not just in SOD, but across the whole department." So he gave me a blank check to create a brand-new police philosophy in the Metropolitan Police Department. So we created the Homeland Security Counterterrorism Bureau. We created CBRNE. My first year, we got $17 million in funding to buy Level A suits to send our people down to Anniston, Alabama. I went down to Anniston, Alabama. I trained in sarin and VX, live sarin and VX gas. We were trained to do rescues in hot zones. We went down to Nevada and trained on rad environments, radiological environments. We trained with, I was one of the few people who was fortunate enough to train with Ken Alabeck and Bill Patrick, two bioweapons scientists, one from Russia and one from the

• 1:01:19Speaker 04

  US, taught my bioweapons class, you know, how to respond to biological threats. Anthrax, right? We had anthrax in Washington DC. These are all things that I was on the front end of creating and I got to go through all of that training and all of that experience with my whole team. The Metropolitan Police Department, when we were finished that six years of evolution, was a completely different place.

• 1:01:41Speaker 00

  This is a good time to, I think, come back to something I kind of promised to listeners that we would revisit. And it goes all the way back, we're not going to go all the way back to Mount Pleasant, but when you were, first day on the job, five days, and you're looking at it and you're thinking to yourself, we're not doing this the right way. We can't even communicate with these community members. Furthermore, we're not even trying to set the message straight. And then if we flash forward, you know, I have notes that are a bit scattered here, but I have notes on embracing technology. This is from governing.com. I want to give credit where credit is due, but so this relates to looking for new ways to connect the community to the police, in the case of the police.

• 1:02:26Speaker 00

  So the creation of an anonymous text tip line, cleverly named 5411. Am I saying that the right way?

• 1:02:32Speaker 04

  Give the 5-0, give the 5-0 the 4-1-1, right?

• 1:02:36Speaker 00

  The 5-0.

• 1:02:37Speaker 04

  We are the 5-0.

• 1:02:38Speaker 00

  I'm such an idiot.

• 1:02:39Speaker 04

  The cops, they used to call us the 5-0 back in the old days. And 4-1-1, you know, the 4-1-1.

• 1:02:44Speaker 00

  Yep, right. So in 2008, you received 292 tips. By the end of 2011, that number had jumped to 1,200.

• 1:02:53Speaker 04

  2,800, yeah, we got up to about 2,800.

• 1:02:56Speaker 00

  2,800, right. And so this is, and there are many examples of how that ended up being valuable. And then there's a whole separate topic, which is maybe related, but different, which is cultivating sources, right? So like developing sources, getting to know people. And this is quoting from the same piece, but you treat people with respect, you establish relationships. And God, you know, I'm trying to, I'm trying to think of some of these examples that I read about separately. But this seems to all probably feed into a lot of what you were doing in that overhaul later. And I'm just wondering

• 1:03:37Speaker 00

  if you have any other examples of sort of cultivating access to helpful information, right? Not just drowning in noise. I'm wondering how you even thought about that. Because I imagine one of the challenges at that time, probably even still today, but especially post 9/11, in the wake of that, that there's kind of a good news, bad news situation. If you want more information or tips, there's probably going to be an overwhelming amount, depending on how you solicit and how you search for it. So how did you think of? Separating signal from noise.

• 1:04:11Speaker 04

  So for me, it was pretty simple and it does go back to Mount Pleasant. Again, pretty intuitive on your part, not having been in policing. It does go back to Mount Pleasant for me. So when I became the chief of police, a couple of commitments I made to myself and to the community was that we had a tendency to place higher value on some neighborhoods and some crimes than others. And our job is to protect all of the community and every crime should be equally important to us. We're not preventing crimes. We're not being successful. Making arrests, we used to publish our arrest stats every year and go, oh, look, we made 50,000 arrests last year. Look how successful we are. Well, that's 50,000 times we didn't do our job because we didn't prevent those crimes from happening. So to me, arrest stats are not a good measure of success for a police department.

• 1:04:55Speaker 04

  Now, I don't have a stat to tell you what I prevented, right? But the goal should be to try and prevent. So for me, what was very clear is, so when I first took over as chief, I promised I was going to go on the scene of every single homicide. Why? Because I wanted people in the communities to know, it didn't matter what neighborhood you lived in or what the circumstances of that homicide was, that homicide is just as important to us as every other homicide. So homicide in Georgetown, right? In the very expensive, wealthy neighborhood, if there was a homicide there, it would get news coverage for weeks and police were all over it. And almost always those crimes would be closed. But if there was a homicide in a public housing project, it got little to no news coverage. You know, three people shot last night in southeast.

• 1:05:40Speaker 04

  That was it. That's all you'd hear and nothing about those people or what happened with those crimes. And they very rarely got closed. So I put an emphasis on trying to cultivate those relationships in the community. It was clear to me, two things. People didn't trust us. They didn't trust the police. And we didn't close these homicides because witnesses wouldn't come forward. They wouldn't come forward because they didn't trust us. And so we had to change that. So. I had a great example. I was out, we did a crime initiative during the summer called All Hands On Deck. So I was out on All Hands On Deck. I'm walking through a public housing complex and there's two middle-aged women sitting on a wall outside in the summer. They're drinking. They got open containers of alcohol, which is illegal. In the old days when I was policing, we would just walk over and handcuff and lock them up,

• 1:06:25Speaker 04

  take them to the station, right? That's open container alcohol. So I go over and I sit down and start talking to them. There'd been a series of shootings in this complex. And I said, you know, hey. She's like, I don't know why you guys are here. You don't care about us, you know, kind of giving me a little lip. And I said, okay, well, I'll tell you what, here's my business card. My cell phone number's on here. First of all, they had no idea I was the chief. I'm just a cop, right? Like, they don't, they don't watch the local news. They don't know that I'm the chief. Here's my business card. If you have any information and you want to talk to me about anything that's going on here and tell me who's out here shooting in the middle of the night, hit these kids that are on the tennis courts, I mean, on the basketball court, please let me know. And when I walk over to the two ladies, they kind of take their beer, you know, and stick it behind the wall. I was like, you know, you're not supposed to be drinking out here, but I'm going to pretend I didn't see that, right?

• 1:07:10Speaker 04

  So I give them my business card. I give them that respect. I, yes ma'am, no ma'am, talk to them with a little respect. I give them my business card. My cell phone number's on there. About two weeks later, I get a call at one o'clock in the morning. And it was a woman's voice. Don't know if it was those women. Can't prove it. Don't know to this day. But I get a call about one o'clock in the morning. There was a shooting in that neighborhood. And the woman's voice said to me, tell your officers that the gun is behind the white Escalade. And I'm like, what are you talking about? She says, on Cloud Street. She gave me that, the address, on Cloud Street. She said, there's a white Escalade. The gun is there. So I turn on my police radio, half asleep, switch to the sixth district where that address is.

• 1:07:53Speaker 04

  And sure enough, they're working a shooting. And I went over the radio. I said, cruiser one. Who's the on scene official? Have him call me. He calls me and I say, look, I just got a tip from somebody that there's a gun involved in this case and this is where the gun is. Sure enough, that's where the gun was. They recovered that gun. From that recovery of that gun, they were able to start working this case to actually get information. So I always tie that back to, I strongly believe that the fact that I walked over to those women, I showed them a little respect. I sat on the wall with them. I didn't lock them up for their Oakland day. Now, they weren't hurting anybody. You know, I sat and chatted with them. I gave them my cell number and said, look, I want to help, but if you don't give me information, I can't help. So that's the philosophy that I wanted all of my cops to have. That's the way I wanted all of us to police our communities.

• 1:08:36Speaker 04

  I wanted people to see that you give me information, you'll see results. You tell me who's involved in shooting up the neighborhood, we'll go after them, we will make a run. So we started what we're doing, instead of just putting posters up when a homicide occurred, when we made an arrest for the homicide, we went back and put posters up saying the case is closed. Reverse cam is like, instead of just telling you when something bad happens, we're going to tell you when we close it. So now people know that we've taken that person off the street. And those little things matter.

• 1:09:01Speaker 00

  Matter a lot. Please confirm or deny this, but I am, in the course of speaking with you and certainly in the course of doing homework for this conversation, impressed with your attention to detail, which comes back also to my signal versus noise. Cause I'm like, I am dazzled by your ability to manage all of these details. And tell me if this is a complete dead end, but it seems like you demonstrated this really, really early on and we'll come back to where we were in the timeline. But this is as a, you had a job at 16 as a secretary at a commercial real estate firm? Am I getting that right?

• 1:09:42Speaker 04

  Yes. Isinger, Kilbane.

• 1:09:43Speaker 00

  You handle tenant billing, right?

• 1:09:46Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 1:09:47Speaker 00

  And it seems like you've practiced this or just had this ability that you've honed over time. Thousands of pieces of correspondence come through the police department every day, but you're also talking about learning, I think at that job, to never let anything that's got your name on it be imperfect. And it's just like.

• 1:10:05Speaker 04

  Sound familiar, Tim?

• 1:10:07Speaker 00

  Yeah. Well, yes, there's that also. My incredibly helpful slash.

• 1:10:12Speaker 04

  OCD.

• 1:10:12Speaker 00

  Like, yeah, brain damage and two saying OCD.

• 1:10:17Speaker 00

  But as you have a job that increases in scope upon scope upon scope upon scope, how do you build systems that help you to keep track of these things? Because not everyone is going to have necessarily your eye for detail or capacity to remember the details in that photograph that flash for a fraction of time that you then need to recall. So it seems like ultimately, and I am cheating a little bit because you know, when you sent and we asked for some notes in advance of this conversation, I'll just read one thing here because.

• 1:10:55Speaker 04

  I don't remember now, so I gotta.

• 1:10:57Speaker 00

  Oh, I'll tell you, it's great. Yeah, no, it's good. It just says, no hacks for me. I try to focus on systems or strategies that will hold up over time. And I'm wondering, for instance, whether it's in your current role or where we left off in terms of your timeline, as you're soliciting information from the community and they're offering more because you're showing not just the announcement of the bad thing, but that you actually took action related to their help that closed cases, et cetera, et cetera. How do you ensure that the department or the organization that you're a part of is equipped to digest that? And I'm not sure that's an easy question to answer, but I'll just leave it there.

• 1:11:39Speaker 04

  No, it's not an easy question to answer, but I would say this, I pushed technology very, very hard once I became the chief. When I took over as the chief, we had Teletubby pagers. We didn't even have cell phones. And I wanted everybody to have smartphones, the early smartphones. The first one we got was a Trio. We had Palm Pilots and Trios, right? If you remember that far back.

• 1:11:57Speaker 00

  Sure, I do.

• 1:11:59Speaker 04

  And then we were putting computers in the cars and we pushed the technology, gunshot detection technology, cameras, integrating those gunshot detection technologies, cameras, all those things together. I really wanted technology to be those systems, right? Taking all this great technology that's coming out, make us more effective and more efficient as police officers instead of spending three hours handwriting an accident report. We could pull up on the scene of an accident report, have a iPad or laptop in the cruiser that GPS drops the intersection on a police report and alls I gotta do is blink a little car down there and my police report now takes 10 minutes instead of two hours, right? So I brought all this technology and the systems that made us better, made us more effective. And I relied a lot on people.

• 1:12:43Speaker 04

  Everything I did, I learned from the people that worked for me and the people in the community. I made it a point to go out and talk to people and listen. Everything I learned about fighting crime that was effective, I got it from walking around the community and giving my cellphone number out, listening to what people had to say. Because if you listen to people, they will tell you what to do. And my officers, my detectives, my sergeants, my lieutenants, those guys, when I did my strategic planning sessions, I would bring in from all of those groups and brainstorm with them. What are the things we need? How can we do better? What do you need that you don't have? What are the crime trends that you're seeing? But I witnessed this evolution of technology and crime and we had to get our police department to adjust to meet that evolution. We hire cops for a 25-year career.

• 1:13:27Speaker 04

  And when this technological crime evolution was happening, we had detectives that didn't know how to manage a crime scene with seven different cameras they had to download to get video of the crime scene. They didn't know how to mobily, forensically dump a phone. You arrest a guy who just did some armed robberies. And the biggest case, and I'm sure you, in your research, you saw this Thomas Maslin case. There was a case that really kind of set this in stone for me. This poor gentleman who was robbed for his cellphone. One night, he's beaten with a baseball bat. They crush his skull, they take his phone. Those same suspects, we find Mr. Maslin the next day with his skull crushed, barely alive, no cellphone. We don't know where his cellphone is. He's in the hospital.

• 1:14:09Speaker 04

  Well, what we don't know is that same night, right after they robbed him, that same group of kids went to Adams Morgan, another neighborhood, and they robbed three more people and they were arrested. And when they were arrested, they had multiple cellphones on them. They were robbing people for their cellphones because they were going to go and turn those phones in and make money. And all those cell phones were recovered as evidence and put on the books, but nobody knew that Thomas Maslin's phone was in that books. Because we didn't have anybody that had the digital forensic skill to dump those phones and figure out whose phones they were. And when we finally did figure that out, months later, I said, this is never going to happen again. We need to have people that are trained to have that skill. And if we can't train our detectives to do it, or they don't have the bandwidth to do it, then we're going to hire civilians to do it. But we're going to have that skill,

• 1:14:53Speaker 04

  and we're going to have it out on the street daily. And so we did. We hired criminal research specialists. We hired some other civilians for digital forensics. So we went through this evolution, and it is building systems that will endure over time. And policing was not designed that way. So we had to really change the way we do policing. And now police departments are doing much better at keeping pace with technology.

• 1:15:14Speaker 00

  Before we get to maybe the differences between your experience in law enforcement and everything that preceded the NFL and the NFL, could you just give people an idea of the scope of your responsibilities at the NFL? What are you responsible for?

• 1:15:30Speaker 04

  Everything related to security. So executive protection, I set the standards for physical security and cybersecurity at the stadiums. So all of the stadiums, the 30 stadiums across the US, and our international stadiums, a little bit variation on the international, but across all the US stadiums, we set the requirements for security that they have to meet. So once we set that standard, we update it annually. We do the audits and red teaming, and we make sure that they are meeting those standards. So physical security, cybersecurity, both. We also have investigative responsibilities. So violations of the personal conduct policy, those are all investigations that are done by my team. We have game integrity, so management of the game integrity program. So making sure that we are maintaining the integrity of this game.

• 1:16:15Speaker 04

  There's a lot involved in that. If it's got anything to do with security, it falls on us. Individually, the league office has full responsibility for Super Bowl, Pro Bowl, Combine, Draft, and all the International Series games. So when I say we have nine international games this year, the reason scheduling this is so hard. Each one of those international games, I will take a team out and advance at least two trips, if not three. And we've got nine international games this year. And I'm also working on, we plan Super Bowl about 18 months out in advance, because that's, you know, 10 days of events over 20 some venues. And then draft. So draft, I'm leaving for Pittsburgh on Sunday to go manage the draft for the next, you know, seven or eight days. So special

• 1:16:59Speaker 04

  events, tent pole events, that's a big, big part of it.

• 1:17:02Speaker 00

  So tons of free time.

• 1:17:03Speaker 04

  Tons of free time. 170 days on the road last year.

• 1:17:08Speaker 00

  Oh, my lordy. So red teaming is a really critical concept that I want people to understand. Some folks may recognize it within the context of, say, tech, given the types of people that I've interviewed before, in terms of paying people to try to break into your systems, let's just say, or to take down your service, or to fill in the blank. But they're on your side. And I wonder where red teaming, I should know this comes from. It's probably from hiring people to like, military pretending to be the Soviets, right?

• 1:17:41Speaker 04

  It's the military. I mean, it was a military concept initially. And think about it this way, you got to look at it a little differently. I think on the tech side, it is a little different. But I think of red teaming as, we set a standard, like, we think use of magnetometers to screen for weapons, we think use of a perimeter to make sure everybody goes through screening, you know, all these standards we put in place of security, right? I can go and audit you, and you have all those standards in place. But what a red team operation does is it's quality assurance. Are those standards working? If I tell you to do something that didn't necessarily work. So it tells you if the standards that you were using are effective or not. Maybe that you put them in place, but you didn't execute

• 1:18:24Speaker 04

  them properly. So they're not effective. So if you're not properly doing secondary screening, it's not that the magnetometers didn't work, it's that your guard didn't respond properly to an alert. It's a quality assurance. That's a quality assurance test to see if the standards that you are employing or you're requiring are being used properly, and are they effective? That's the key. It's not a got to. It's like, is what we're doing effective? And if it's not effective, how can we make it effective?

• 1:18:53Speaker 00

  How are your responsibilities or your job with the NFL most different from what you did beforehand? I'm just imagining there might be new constraints, what you can or can't do, even though you're coordinating with federal, state, and local law entities. I mean, just imagining what that entails with 32 clubs makes my head spin. But how is it most different from what you did before?

• 1:19:15Speaker 04

  I'd say it's most different in terms of its diversity. So I thought, coming from 27 years in the nation's capital, managing SOD, I managed every large event, protest, demonstration. We had about 2,300 a year that I was responsible for when I was there. So I thought, and then presidential inaugurations, I was like, this is easy. Like, I can come to the NFL, this Super Bowl thing's gonna be nothing. Like, this is gonna be a walk in the park. And the diversity here is, the complexity here is so much more. It's so much more complex and the diversity. So I'm not only setting up the equivalent of a presidential inauguration that I did

• 1:19:57Speaker 04

  every four years before, every year it's Super Bowl, but the Super Bowl is more complex. It's spread over 10 days, over 26 venues, and it moves every year. So it's in a different place. So I've gotta build all those relationships, I've gotta learn all those new venues, I've gotta figure out security in a completely different climate. And, you know, in Minneapolis, it was 25 below zero. Guess what? Some technology doesn't work in that 25 below zero. Some of the things that we do in Arizona is not gonna work in Minneapolis. And then now with international, we try and go and implement our full suite of security standards in Madrid, in Sao Paulo, in Australia, and, you know, Munich. But when we get there, 20% of what we do is gonna have to be adapted to the local environment, right?

• 1:20:40Speaker 04

  There's laws and regulations and things that are different in different countries, right? Things that we do here, you can't do there. Things they do there, we can't do here. So the complexity of what I do now is far more complicated, and it's far more diverse than what I used to do.

• 1:20:54Speaker 00

  And by diverse, you just mean constantly shifting, like you mentioned, these different locations?

• 1:21:00Speaker 04

  There's no template. Like, I can't say, hey, you know, it's inauguration, this is what we do for the inauguration, the ball sites are all the same, you know, we do the same things, we know what to do with the inauguration. This is, every time, it's like, you just take the old plan and throw it away, start all over.

• 1:21:15Speaker 04

  But pretty much, not completely, but pretty much.

• 1:21:18Speaker 00

  Yeah, well.

• 1:21:19Speaker 04

  You don't want to start with any assumptions. No assumptions, that's for sure.

• 1:21:23Speaker 00

  I guess, shift gears just a little bit. Are there any books that you recommend or resources? This doesn't have to be within the context of the NFL. But when I imagine you get approached by people who are hoping to learn from you in one way or another, or you are just mentoring people, right? Whether that was in policing or within the NFL or in other contexts. Are there any books that you recommend frequently to other people? Doesn't need to be nonfiction, could be anything.

• 1:21:52Speaker 04

  I'd say my favorite book of all times, and I made it mandatory reading for my command staff when I took care of the chief, which was a hoot because nobody had ever made our command staff read anything before. And I also did a book club. I also used this book and did a book club with the community. The Tipping Point, Malcolm Gladwell. One of my all time favorite reads because it forces you to understand that no matter what your challenge and whatever what your problem is, goes back to problem solving. Whenever the problem is you're trying to solve, there is a tipping point. You just have to know what that tipping point is. And I love that book. The great, I've read it three times, I think. It's a great book. So that's one of my favorites. It just makes you think differently.

• 1:22:31Speaker 00

  What did you hope people reading it would take away to apply? How might that change how they act on the job or think and then therefore act on the job?

• 1:22:40Speaker 04

  It doesn't matter what you're doing, what your profession is. If you read The Tipping Point, the key point is you can turn around any situation. You can solve any problem if you're paying close enough attention to the details that you can hit that tipping point. What is the tipping point to turn around high levels of violence in a community? What is the tipping point to turn around whatever your problem is? So tipping points, one, I would also say Blink. Blink is another one that I only read because I liked Malcolm Gladwell. But Blink for people in high paced professions, Blink is one that helps you really evaluate how you make decisions, how you rely on your instinct and your experience and how much that matters. So those are two of my favorites.

• 1:23:24Speaker 04

  The only thing I read, Tim, is stuff about my job. I read work stuff, so nothing really fun.

• 1:23:31Speaker 00

  Let me come back to the, suppose this all relates, everything relates to making decisions, but especially kind of performing under extreme and sustained pressure. And I would imagine that of course, part of the hiring process for a lot of the people who report to you, let's just say, or within your organization, you're already vetting for people who can operate at a high level with sustained pressure, where they also have to be very good at improvising when conditions change in someone. But if you were teaching a class to, could be high school students, college students, on sort of resilience and handling pressure, some people buckle.

• 1:24:12Speaker 00

  And sometimes you learn by buckling and then you figure out how to approach it next time. What would you tell them about making decisions under pressure? And acting under pressure as opposed to becoming paralyzed? How would you even begin to talk to them about that?

• 1:24:29Speaker 04

  I would say it's, I don't care who you are, it's not 100% instinct. It is, your body's going to react in a crisis to what it knows. So if it's a situation where you have trained for it, or you've thought about it, or you've prepared for it, in your mind, you've walked through it, you're going to be in a lot better position than if it's something that's never crossed your mind. This is where kind of preparedness crosses that line. Like this is why we try and encourage people to be prepared. Know when you walk into a building, whether there are two different ways you can get out, not just the way you came in. Is there other ways you can get out of this building, right? So everybody's going to freeze initially. I think to a certain extent, if you have no experience, nothing in your brain,

• 1:25:14Speaker 04

  that your brain can go back to have you act. But in terms of being in a, in a workplace or a professional environment and making decisions as a leader, if you have

• 1:25:25Speaker 04

  The knowledge that you need, you've done your homework, you've read everything that there is to read, you've got your education, you've got experience, the decision making comes easy. Each time you go up in a different level of rank, as a sergeant, when I first made sergeant, making decisions was a little tough at first because I was still pretty inexperienced myself. You know, my job was to be more well-read, understand the D C code a little better than the patrol officer, know what case law says. So if I didn't read that stuff and I didn't study, I would be uncomfortable making decisions and I would hesitate to make decisions. We had a lot of people that don't like to make decisions. But the more you read, the more you learn, the more you invest in your knowledge, the easier it is to make decisions. Like to

• 1:26:06Speaker 04

  me, decisions now with all of the years, I'm in thirty-six years in this business, and now I've, again, I have two master's degrees, I've studied, I've got all this experience, decisions for me like boom, boom, boom, boom. So it comes with experience, it comes with investment of time, it comes with preparing yourself to be able to make a decision. And of course, people will throw things at me that I've never experienced before, but because I have all those other things to rely on, I can make a decision and I feel good about it.

• 1:26:37Speaker 00

  Well, I have to imagine also, this is true in a lot of contexts outside of security or law enforcement, certainly applies to military, but it kind of applies everywhere, which is making decisions in the face of incomplete information. And so I'm wondering what you have learned about that, biasing towards action when you have incomplete information. How do you think about that?

• 1:27:03Speaker 04

  It happens. It happens a lot, especially in first responder communities in military. Like you said, it happens a lot. You're not always going to have a complete picture. Again, I think your comfort level with being able to make those decisions is going to fall back on, are you qualified to make that decision? If you feel qualified to make the decision, sometimes I gotta make decisions without all the information. There's two things to go along with that. One is

• 1:27:33Speaker 04

  Do the best you can based on what you know at the time, but know a decision has to be made. And then if you make the wrong decision,

• 1:27:41Speaker 04

  undo it, change it, fix it. Don't just stick with it because you've got to be the boss. And this is what I said. Admit you're wrong. Change course, go another direction. That's where people get tripped up, right? When I'm making a decision, I don't have full information. I'm saying, I'm thinking to myself as I'm making this decision, I can either go this way or I can go that way. If I go this way, what can go wrong? If I go this way, what can go wrong? Okay, now I'm going to go this way. If one of those things goes wrong, consequence thinking, right? If one of those things goes wrong, what's my course of action then? So if I'm making a decision with incomplete information, as I'm making that decision and giving that command, I'm thinking about how I'm going to deal with the collateral damage if that was the wrong decision.

• 1:28:23Speaker 00

  Right.

• 1:28:23Speaker 04

  Because that's next. You know, you make a bad decision, you can't just go, oh, shoot. Wow, darn. You know, you gotta fix it, fix it, fix it, fix it. What are you going to do about it now? How are you going to fix it?

• 1:28:35Speaker 00

  If you could put, this is metaphorically speaking, like a message on a billboard or have a reminder on your desk that everybody sees when they come in. Could be a quote, could be a mantra, could be anything. If you could put it on a billboard for millions of people to see, what might that be? I mean, is there anything that comes to mind? Could be someone else's quote, could be something that you try to live your life by, could be something you want everybody who's within your organization to be reminded of, or it could be something else entirely. Does anything come to mind?

• 1:29:06Speaker 04

  I mean, I tell people all the time, bad things happen to everybody, right? Bad things happen to everybody. And a lot of times it's we do it to ourselves. We make bad decisions, bad things happen to us because of ourselves. Bad things happen to everybody. Not about the bad decision you made or the bad thing that happened to you. It's what you do after. So it's easy to have some tragedy or some terrible thing happen to you and sit around and feel sorry for yourself, or become a victim, or, you know, let it define you. It's your attitude and your effort that you put into how you recover. So it's not what happens to you, it's not the bad thing, it's how you handle those things that really matter in life.

• 1:29:50Speaker 04

  Because you can have one of two attitudes every time something bad happens. Which attitude are you gonna pick? For me, it's gonna be, you know, I wish that never had happened. I wish I'd never made that decision. I wish that had never happened. But you know what? I'm gonna fix it. I'm gonna not let it find me. I'm not gonna let it take me down.

• 1:30:08Speaker 00

  Well, Kathy, I mean, I think that's a pretty strong way to land this plane. So.

• 1:30:14Speaker 04

  You have the coolest job, by the way. I, I.

• 1:30:16Speaker 00

  It's so fun.

• 1:30:17Speaker 04

  I can't imagine how much you get to learn talking to so many people. And you must have a, an encyclopedia in your brain.

• 1:30:25Speaker 00

  It's the best job. And it didn't come from some big, long-term plan. It was kind of zigging and zagging with, frankly, I mean, tying into what you said, you know, some really, you know, in retrospect, with the information I had at the time, there were good decisions about various things, you know, starting books, but made some terrible decisions on deadlines where there were kind of suicide missions. And ultimately, just adapted and tried to make the best of a sequence of, I would say, in retrospect, kind of poor decisions led to one of the best decisions, which I never thought would become this. And here we are. And thanks for.

• 1:31:02Speaker 04

  Good for you.

• 1:31:03Speaker 00

  Being willing to do the dance and play some improv jazz in this conversation. Is there anything else you'd like to say or add, suggest to people, request of people, anything at all, before we wind to a close?

• 1:31:16Speaker 04

  No, just was a fascinating couple hours with you. I, I'm an avid follower and really enjoyed my time here. So thank you for including me.

• 1:31:26Tim Ferriss?

  Oh, definitely. Kathy, thank you so much. I hope we get to see each other at some point. Who knows? Might get to your neck of the world.

• 1:31:34Speaker 04

  Please let me know if you do. New York or DC? Look me up.

• 1:31:37Tim Ferriss?

  Both. Yeah, I'm in both. So I'll keep you posted. Thank you again for the time. And for everybody listening, we'll have show notes, links to everything that we talked about at tim.blog/podcast as per usual. Just search for Kathy and you will find this episode. Until next time, be just a bit kinder than is necessary to others, but also to yourself. Thanks for tuning in.

• 1:32:02Tim Ferriss?

  Hey guys, this is Tim again. Just one more thing before you take off, and that is Five Bullet Friday. Would you enjoy getting a short email from me every Friday that provides a little fun before the weekend? Between one and a half and two million people subscribe to my free newsletter, my super short newsletter called Five Bullet Friday. Easy to sign up, easy to cancel. It is basically a half page that I send out every Friday to share the coolest things I've found or discovered or have started exploring over that week. It's kind of like my diary of cool things. It often includes articles I'm reading, books I'm reading, albums perhaps, gadgets, gizmos, all sorts of tech tricks and so on that get sent to me by my friends, including a lot of podcast guests.

• 1:32:44Tim Ferriss?

  And these strange esoteric things end up in my field and then I test them and then I share them with you. So if that sounds fun, again, it's very short, a little tiny bite of goodness before you head off for the weekend, something to think about. If you'd like to try it out, just go to tim.blog/friday, type that into your browser, tim.blog/friday, drop in your email and you'll get the very next one. Thanks for listening. Not to be a salty old dog, but in the early 2000s, back in the day when I was running my own e-commerce business, the tools were atrocious. They tried hard, but man, was it bad. You had to cobble all sorts of stuff together.

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