Pod Insights How to Be a Better Human How to build your kid's confidence — by leaving them alone (w/ Lenore Skenazy) About this episode How do you raise confident and capable children in a seemingly scary and unsafe world? According to Lenore Skenazy, the solution is simple yet controversial — you leave the kids alone. Lenore is the president of Let Grow and the founder of the Free Range Kids Movement where she argues that parents don’t need to hover over their kids as much because they’ll be more than okay — they’ll thrive. Chris and Lenore discuss why overprotecting kids can backfire, how parents might be unintentionally stifling children’s innate curiosity, and why one of the best tools to teach kids is to step away and let them learn and problem-solve themselves.
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Host: Chris Duffy (Instagram: @chrisiduffy https://www.instagram.com/chrisiduffy/?hl=en | chrisduffycomedy.com https://chrisduffycomedy.com/)
Guest: Lenore Skenazy (Instagram: @lenoreskenazy_freerange https://www.instagram.com/lenoreskenazy_freerange/?hl=en | LinkedIn: @lenoreskenazy https://www.linkedin.com/in/lenoreskenazy/ | Website: https://www.freerangekids.com/)
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Instagram: @letgroworg https://www.instagram.com/letgroworg/?hl=en
LinkedIn: @letgrow linkedin.com/company/letgrow/
Join Let Grow (free!): https://letgrow.org/join
Facebook Group: Raising Independent Kids Facebook Group https://www.facebook.com/groups/759938234394061
Book: Free Range Kids: How Parents and Teachers Can Let Go and Let Grow https://bookshop.org/p/books/free-range-kids-how-parents-and-teachers-can-let-go-and-let-grow-lenore-skenazy/15638632?utm_source=google&utm_medium=paid&utm_campaign=pmax_makegood_july2025&utm_content=6600573266&utm_term=%7Bsearchterm%7D&utm_product_id=&utm_item_id=%7Bitem_id%7D&gad_source=1&gad_campaignid=22829786313&gbraid=0AAAAACfld41fI-AVqehvfPzpwRlxxhHlr&gclid=Cj0KCQjwnovFBhDnARIsAO4V7mCNK9oB2NNBMRG6BQyHswgtTZWin6YjbhHsG8I25SnsKTxUTsQhYUgaAs3XEALw_wcB
Lenore's TED Talk: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=whaesnYloMQ
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Transcript 10,228 words · 7 speakers
Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.
0:01 Chris Duffy? You're listening to How to Be a Better Human. I'm your host, Chris Duffy. Let me tell you a quick story about cars. Growing up, my family did not own a car. We took public transportation. So cars always felt foreign and strange and a little bit dangerous to me. In my life now, I do have a car, but I know almost nothing about maintenance. And so when I took my car into Roz, my mechanic, who has also now become my friend, I asked him to help me change the car air filter. And rather than just charge me for the job, Roz had me sit down and watch him do it. And I saw how extremely simple this is. You literally just open one compartment, slide the old filter out and slide the new filter in. It couldn't be simpler. So then the next time I needed to change the air filter, I did it myself.
0:45 Chris Duffy? And I felt so proud. Genuinely, it made my day that I could now change a car air filter all on my own. And that experience is what today's guest, Lenore Skenazy, wants all kids to have. Not literally changing the air filter on my old Toyota Camry, but the experience of being given independence and allowed to do things that maybe seem a little bit dangerous or outside of their comfort zone. Lenore argues that modern parenting has become so focused on safety that we are depriving kids of the chance to learn themselves and causing a whole host of other issues. Here's a clip from Lenore's TED Talk.
1:22 Speaker 01 We have to realize that we've been sort of brainwashed into believing that anytime our kids aren't with us, they're in terrible danger of being kidnapped by a guy in a white van looking for his puppy or, also tragic, not getting into Harvard. And as a result, terrible, I don't even like to think about it. But, but the upshot is that we are spending way more time with our kids than our parents spent with us, usually helping them do things that they could do on their own. And the, I'll call it the adult takeover of childhood, because it's so vast that the, what is it, University of Michigan did a study two years ago.
2:08 Speaker 01 And they found that parents want to give their kids independence. They recognize its importance. But the majority of parents of kids age nine to 11, which is tweens, right? Kind of old, will not let them play at the park with a friend, will not let them walk to a friend's house. And if they're at the, you know, the store shopping together, only 50% will let their kid go to another aisle. Okay, that's the real statistic. That's University of Michigan. So sending your kid for a can of peas is like sending them to NAMM. Okay? It's just crazy. We gotta get braver than that. We gotta get brave enough to send our kids to the canned food aisle or to the park before their voice changes.
2:53 Speaker 01 So how?
2:59 Chris Duffy? We're gonna be right back with a lot more from Lenore in just a moment.
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5:04 Chris Duffy? And we are back. This episode was recorded in person at the 2025 TED Conference in Vancouver. And today, we're talking about parenting, independence, and how to fight anxiety with Lenore Skanezi.
5:17 Speaker 01 I'm Lenore Skanezi. I am president of Let Grow and I'm founder of the Free Range Kids Movement.
5:23 Chris Duffy? First, for people who aren't already familiar, what is free range parenting?
5:27 Speaker 01 It's the idea that kids are smarter and safer than we give them credit for, so they don't need us. They don't need us. Not that they don't need us at all, but they don't need us to help us that much. They don't need us to supervise that much.
5:38 Chris Duffy? I'm always interested in ideas like this where, to me, a lot of it seems like extremely straightforward. And yet, it's often presented as like, with the controversial idea that kids should have independence. So why do you think people regard this as controversial?
5:56 Speaker 01 I guess there's a couple of reasons. One is, it's more fun. If it's controversial, it gives you something to talk about. Two is, I think we have gotten to the point where we've forgotten that kids can do anything on their own. I mean, you see parents, I once talked to this guy, and he said that every morning, he takes his seven-year-old to the bus stop, and they live two houses from the bus stop. And then he waits there. And I said, why? And he said, I have no idea.
6:19 Chris Duffy? Uh huh.
6:19 Speaker 01 And that's what I'm trying to make people look at and go, come to think of it, that makes no sense. Goodbye, you know, I'll be here or I'll be at work.
6:26 Chris Duffy? All of parenting is, but you in particular and the ideas that you're known for are at the intersection of not just parenting, but also culture and media and fear and ideas about like community and others, like you're hitting at all of these pieces that are real fault lines and insecurities in our society.
6:45 Speaker 01 I'm so glad you noticed that because I feel like I wouldn't be doing this for all these years if it was just here's how to feed your kid a balanced diet or something like that. But it does feel like I'm really interested in how did we get from my generation, which is a long time ago, when even the stay at home moms stayed at home, right? And let their kids go out into the world and lived without knowing anything about them from eight 30 in the morning till three 30 in the afternoon, and then again from four till six. And somehow that was not only considered normal, nobody was having a breakdown, nobody was saying, aren't you worried? And nobody was giving us, my parents, updates. And what happened to being able to live with not seeing and knowing everything your kid is doing every second?
7:29 Speaker 01 That's, that's a huge cultural shift. And it's a burden on parents because now they feel like they must be in the know and they must be, you know, tracking or talking to the teacher or, you know, just checking in or putting a kid in some organized activity where somebody else is watching them. How did we get to the point where we don't trust our kids, our neighbors, our own parenting at all?
7:49 Chris Duffy? Before we get even deeper into the conversation, I feel like whenever we talk about parenting topics and kid topics on the show, I always just want to give like three, I don't even want to call them disclaimers, but three things that I really believe so you know where I'm coming from.
8:02 Speaker 01 Okay, let's hear it.
8:02 Chris Duffy? The first one is that parenting is really hard and it requires making an enormous amount of decisions that no one could possibly be prepared for.
8:09 Speaker 01 Many of those decisions will be quote unquote wrong or suboptimal and that's okay because nobody ever had a perfect parent.
8:14 Chris Duffy? That was literally the second thing I was gonna say, which is great. I love that, which is like you, there's no way to get it right and it's not even possible or desirable to get it all right.
8:21 Speaker 01 No, you don't want it, yeah.
8:22 Chris Duffy? And then I think the last one, which is important, I'm a parent. I love being a parent. I love having my But I also really believe that your life is just as
8:31 Speaker 01 Valid.
8:31 Chris Duffy? full, complete and meaningful if you don't have kids.
8:33 Speaker 01 Right.
8:33 Chris Duffy? That you just live a different life, not a worse or less than life.
8:37 Speaker 01 Right.
8:37 Chris Duffy? But I think these questions about like trust and independence and what do we believe a society is for?
8:44 Speaker 01 Mm hmm.
8:44 Chris Duffy? I think those are questions that apply to individuals, whatever age you are, whether you have a kid or not. I think a lot of the pushback on this idea that kids should be alone and do something in any way is based in this fear of like something bad will happen to them, a crime will happen to them.
9:00 Speaker 01 Right.
9:00 Chris Duffy? It's an explicit fear and it comes from this idea that like the world is bad and people are always out to get you. That's a hard thing to push back on and obviously you spent a long time pushing back on that.
9:10 Speaker 01 Yeah, so let's talk about the belief and then we'll talk about how to how to maybe counter the belief.
9:15 Chris Duffy? Please.
9:16 Speaker 01 There's a belief a lot of people share that the best way to prepare your child for the world is to tell them, you know, it's a mean world out there. You better be prepared. Don't be a sucker. People are out to get you. You know, don't let them take advantage of you. Always be on your guard. And there was this really cool, long study and you guys are at Ted, you'll go look it up, right? That found that these are called priors, I think, like what is your prior belief in the world? And parents who tell their kids that think that they're doing them a favor because they're making sure that they won't be patsies. They won't be doormats, right? They won't be taken advantage of. But there was a giant, long-term study done of kids who were told that versus kids who were told, you know, most people are pretty nice and yeah, I'll keep your eyes open, but don't be distrustful. You know, you can depend on the world.
9:58 Speaker 01 And the kids who were told, don't be a patsy, ended up having like worse relationships, worse jobs, less money, worse health, like physical health and mental health. And so the ironic thing is that, you know, we've been told that it's good to prepare your kid by telling them the worst case scenario, but in fact, that doesn't help them. What I've found over the years is that you don't, there's no way to tell anybody, oh, my God, the odds are so small that anything bad will happen to your kid because they always go to the worst case scenario. I call it worst first thinking. You go to the worst case scenario and proceed as if it's likely to happen. So the only thing I've seen that counters that that deep Fear is being sort of pushed to let your kid do something even before you're ready because you might never be ready.
10:43 Speaker 01 And you say, you know, like it, so the let grow homework assignment, this is called the let grow experiences. When kids get the assignment, go home and do something new on your own with your parents' permission, without your parent. So then your kid goes to the store and they come home beaming, you know, because they got the milk or they got the stick of better, what is it, the stick of butter and a loaf of bread and a carton of milk. Like on Sesame Street. Or they totally screwed up and they forgot to get the change and they lost their mitten. And it's still okay because even if they screwed up, it was okay. And only that real life experience of your kid being separate from you, doing something on their own, changes you because parents are hardwired to worry, but they're also hardwired to want to be
11:24 Speaker 01 raising a competent human being who will exist when they're gone. And so you get this real flood of, I guess, endorphins or just confidence. And that allows you to do it again.
11:38 Chris Duffy? A parallel that I've thought about in preparing for this interview is I really love to swim. And I love being in the ocean or lakes or rivers. And of course, if I'm swimming in the ocean, it is also true that there are sharks or stingrays or something somewhere in this vast expanse of water. And it would be really easy to say like, because there's the chance of a shark, I should not enjoy this thing that I really enjoy. But I can read the statistics and understand that I'm like far more likely to be killed by a vending machine falling on me than a shark.
12:09 Speaker 01 Watch out.
12:10 Chris Duffy? Yeah, and so I don't avoid vending machines. And the only way to like get over that like visceral fear, for me at least, is to just like go and be in the water. And then realize like, it's okay, I didn't get attacked by a shark and it was so great. It felt really good. And then I keep going and it feels better every time. And eventually the idea of like a shark attack, I'm like, yeah, but I also could get into a car crash on the way to the beach.
12:30 Speaker 01 Much more likely, yeah.
12:30 Chris Duffy? Much more likely. And I feel like that experience is. Way heightened with parenting, but you kind of have to have that over and over of like, something might happen, but it probably won't. And the only way to get out of that visceral thing is to just allow the kid to do some version of this.
12:47 Speaker 01 We had a psychologist named Camilo Ortiz do a pilot study of independence as actual therapy for kids with a diagnosis of anxiety. And normally, he does cognitive behavioral therapy. But he recruited four kids, he recruited four families where the kids had like, not just like, oh, I'm scared, but like, you know, heart palpitations, or they couldn't go to school. I mean, sort of off the charts, worse than just everyday anxiety. And the way he treated them was, the first week, he just had the two parents come and he talked to them, and he found out like, the main reason that they were there. And in one case, it was a nine-year-old, no, a 10-year-old, who was afraid to go upstairs and downstairs in his own home. And in another case, it was a girl who was afraid to sleep
13:30 Speaker 01 in her own bed, nine-years-old. And then he had the parents come with the kid. And normally, in cognitive behavioral therapy, it'd be, well, kid, you know, I hear you're afraid to go upstairs in your own house. How about tonight, you go up for five minutes and come down and see how that felt. And then tomorrow, you know, next week, we'll do 10 minutes. He didn't talk about that fear at all. He didn't mention the deficit or the problem. And instead, he said, you're 10. You know, I've been talking to your parents about how you're probably ready to do more than they let you do. What are some things that you want to do that you haven't done on your own? And in fact, that 10-year-old wanted to walk home from school. He wanted to take the Long Island Railroad. And he wanted to do some other things. And his job was to do one new thing, either every day
14:10 Speaker 01 or every other day for four weeks. And he did these things. And it really changed him to the point where that was like, over the summer. And then came the new school year, and it was, he was about to go into middle school, which is a new school. And of course, because this is what I say, it's our culture that's sort of driving us crazy. The school sends home a new school year is looming. And of course, your child will be completely flummoxed and confused and probably intimidated because they have to find a locker, and they're going to meet new people, and there's shiny slippery floors, whatever it is. You might want to come with them just to ease the transition. And he told his Parents, no, I got this. And he went to school by himself that first day and he came home and he said, I was like the only one there without my parents. So to me, it says so many things.
14:54 Speaker 01 It says that a little confidence goes a long way. Knowing that your parents trust you goes a long way. And then you have a culture undermining you every step of the way, pretending that going to a new school is so hard that no child should ever have to do it without, you know, parental guidance, which is not true. We can all go to a new school and make our way.
15:12 Chris Duffy? It also feels like there's this real hesitance to believe that you can learn these skills, that like skills are learnable. You know, it's like, I have to do it for my kid because like there's some sort of set level of ability that they have and they only get it by getting older, not by trying.
15:30 Speaker 01 Yeah, or they only get it by being specifically taught. I was reading some meme yesterday and the words on this one were, if school started at age zero, there would be, you know, classes on how to teach your child to walk. Because we've started to assume that everything needs adult guidance and specific instruction as opposed to things kicking in. But a lot kicks in and we don't see it anymore because we do have all these classes to teach kids things. And so that's why my whole TED Talk boils down to, I hope the title they give it is spend less time with your kids. Because when you do, they will start learning stuff on their own and they will be clumsy and take minor risks and sometimes be, you know, mean or hurt or whatever.
16:14 Speaker 01 And, you know, that's okay because that's how they get to this competence. To think that it's all adult led is like, nobody taught you to speak, right? And that's because curiosity and the desire for things, like the desire to communicate, the desire to make things happen are innate. And we keep forgetting that there's any innate curiosity or drive in kids. And, you know, the whole teachable moment idea. Let them have some curiosity of their own. And what looks like dawdling and what looks like inefficiency is how you become efficient.
16:47 Chris Duffy? Okay, now I'm going to give you, the listener, some independence and I'm going to trust that you will stay tuned even while we take a quick break for some podcast ads.
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19:55 Chris Duffy? And we are back. So my son is a toddler.
19:58 Speaker 01 Oh.
19:59 Chris Duffy? And because of that, the social media algorithms sue me a lot. And I do think that everything you're saying really resonates with what I, with my prior beliefs and what my inclination is. And also, I think one of the challenges is, especially since I'm doing it for the first time, there's this fear and guilt and fear of shame.
20:20 Speaker 01 Yeah.
20:21 Chris Duffy? And so, like, you gave the example of like, it's not like you needed to teach them how to speak.
20:25 Speaker 01 Yeah.
20:25 Chris Duffy? But literally on my phone, I'll get videos that are like, if you don't do this, your child will not learn how to speak correctly. Make sure that you're mimicking the sounds back to them. Like, that is like a very common thing that I see on there.
20:36 Speaker 01 Wait a minute, how dare they undermine you that way and turn parenting into this huge drag and fear-filled experience? That's just so unfair.
20:46 Chris Duffy? And that's my question for you is, because I feel like I have a fair amount of confidence in myself as a parent, partly because I worked at an elementary school and-
20:54 Speaker 01 You did?
20:55 Chris Duffy? Yeah, I taught 5th grade and-
20:56 Speaker 01 You did? Oh, my God.
20:57 Chris Duffy? So I kind of have been around kids and also I just naturally really like being around kids and playing with them. And so, I have a fair amount of confidence, but it is hard-
21:04 Speaker 01 Not anymore.
21:05 Chris Duffy? Yeah, exactly. It's hard because you're like, there is a very strong feeling as a parent of like, well, you don't really get another shot at this. Like, if I mess it up, then maybe they're going to be messed up for life.
21:15 Speaker 01 That's so interesting you use that phrase, the mess up phrase, because that's the phrase that I've been hearing a lot among kids. And when people talk about kids being anxious and depressed, one of the things is that they are so afraid of messing up that they're sort of retreating. And of course, I don't even want to talk about like, social media and the idea of being videotaped while you're messing up. And then there's that whole other layer of potential embarrassment. But, um, did you mess up walking into the room? What if you tripped? Oh, my God, that guy cannot walk. You know, I mean, nobody's perfect. And the idea that, that there is some straight path and otherwise you're deviating and your kid is not, never going to talk.
21:53 Speaker 01 Because you didn't say, honey, this is a cup of t-t-t tea. It's so wild. I mean, it's really interesting. That we have a culture that can drain us of so much common sense and confidence. And often it's so that they can instill something else, which is a class, or a book, or a product that you have to buy. And I like, you know, I like our country. I like capitalism, but the easiest dollar to get from any human being is a dollar of a parent that you've scared that somehow your kid is going to be hurt or fall behind, but I have a solution.
22:30 Chris Duffy? Absolutely. I've spent a lot of those dollars.
22:32 Speaker 01 Don't spend anymore.
22:33 Chris Duffy? Okay, so, so this is a big question for you, which is, what is the end goal of this movement that you're leading? How does society change when we embrace this? What's the big shift in the end?
22:45 Speaker 01 I think it would be a sort of trust, revolution, like you would start trusting yourself. Evolution has created a way for kids to get ahead, even if you weren't speaking three million words to them at dinner tonight. You would trust your neighbors more because your kid would be walking to school and you'd realize that they were fine. And in fact, you know, two doors down, the lady gave him a ball or whatever. So it would be trusting the school, that you don't have to see pictures from them every day. You don't have to get a report from them every hour, how the kid is doing. You'd be trusting the camp. You don't have to see if your kid is smiling at the cookout. It would just be sort of. Breathing easier and the big lie or the one of the big lies of our culture is that
23:27 Speaker 01 the more information you have, the more easier you can breathe, right? Oh, you know, you'd be tracking your child, finally you'll have peace of mind. No, my mom had peace of mind because she trusted me to walk to school and trusted the neighbors not to kill me and eat me, right? And information is sort of the opposite of trust. So this is an unformed idea, but Adam and Eve are in the Garden of Eden and a snake comes along and says, "Look, you can track your kids." Right? It's like, "Oh, that'll give me peace of mind. Yes, you'll have knowledge, you'll know." Maybe this happens with your kid too, as a toddler. The daycare center sends a report at the end of the day that tells you, you know, when
24:10 Speaker 01 they peed and whether it was number one, you know, number two or number one and how much they ate and all this superfluous, completely unnecessary information unless your kid was really ill and you were getting information from the NICU on like this worked for them or finally, you know, they could eat something. But treating everything as if it's so close to death that you better have every bit of information on are they surviving, are they thriving, is a really radically crazy way to look at childhood and your kid and it drives you crazy the same way if your kid was really ill. And so to be able to step back from that is the only way you can breathe easier.
24:53 Speaker 01 The only option for us to feel confident and hopeful as parents is trust or faith or whatever you want to call it, other than constant information and constant intervention and we're being told the opposite.
25:06 Chris Duffy? Absolutely. I think that one of the most challenging things that I've had to do as a parent so far is a really small one.
25:13 Speaker 01 Okay.
25:14 Chris Duffy? He was born a little, he was born early. And so there was a genuine need at first. Well, there was certainly a lot of fear, but there was also a genuine need to track how much he was eating at first.
25:23 Speaker 01 Okay.
25:24 Chris Duffy? And so we had a notebook and we would write down how much he ate. And once he was doing fine, we kept doing it. And a lactation consultant. Came and, you know, helped out with a lot of stuff, but then she asked us, what's your plan to stop tracking?
25:39 Speaker 01 Oh, God bless her.
25:41 Chris Duffy? And I was so surprised by that.
25:42 Speaker 01 Yeah.
25:43 Chris Duffy? And I genuinely felt like that was one of the hardest transitions of the whole parenting journey was to decide like, this thing that feels like very active and I'm doing it and when I do it, I protect my son. And then I had to be like, actually, it's okay if I don't know how many ounces he ate today. It doesn't matter. He's fine. It was really hard to stop writing it in the notebook because at the end of the day, I could add it up and go, looks like we're good parents. And then the next day, when we stopped doing it, it was like, I guess he's okay.
26:12 Speaker 01 Yeah.
26:13 Chris Duffy? And that had to be, I guess I'm a good parent because I got him to a place where I don't need to do that. But that was a big mental shift.
26:17 Speaker 01 Yeah. I'd say just accept the fact that you're a good parent, period, without any evidence. Okay? Because there'll be evidence along the way that you think you're a terrible parent because your kid does something stupid or bad. And it's not that you're a bad parent, it's that people are people. Right? And when you stopped writing this down and it was like a week later, did you feel better that you weren't writing it down?
26:40 Chris Duffy? Yeah, absolutely.
26:41 Speaker 01 Yeah.
26:41 Chris Duffy? But it was the transitional days were the really hard ones.
26:44 Speaker 01 Right. So that's what Let Grow is trying to do. We're trying to make, we're trying to be that lactation consultant in a way. It's like, I know you think you have to walk your kid to the bus stop. I know you think you have to watch every soccer game. I know you think that things are better if you're in the backyard with them. Oh, I'm not paying, you know, I'm not interfering. I'm just like, oh, do you need a Band-Aid?
27:02 Chris Duffy? Yeah.
27:03 Speaker 01 Not interfering, oh, do you need a sip of water? Not interfering, oh, you know, it's his turn. Anyways, if you can take that step back, then you get to that point like you were a week later when it's like, oh, this is going okay. Oh, I can trust my kid's, you know, guts and internal system and their health. And once you can do that, then your kid is, I don't want to say better off because that becomes this judgy thing again, but you can breathe easier. Right? If you do, I'm gonna beg here, our programs are free. All our materials are free. If you go to letgrow.org and you click on schools, if you're a teacher or principal or whatever, or you show it to your school, you can just get the Let Grow experience, which tells all the parents in the school to let their kids do something new.
27:47 Speaker 01 And that's like the lactation expert. It is a trusted authority, the school, telling you that you can take a step back and let your kids step up. And once you've done it a couple of times, then you will breathe easier. And then you will see other kids around in the neighborhood. And then there will be kids doing errands for you. And then there will be kids just saying like, I can do this myself. And you will feel great. And you will actually have a little free time.
28:10 Chris Duffy? There's so much that's really practical that you can do today. So let's look at a couple of different ages of kids.
28:15 Speaker 01 Okay.
28:16 Chris Duffy? If someone has a...
28:17 Speaker 01 Say, a toddler.
28:18 Chris Duffy? A toddler, yeah. Yeah, we can start with me. Let's start. Say, a toddler. How can you start embodying these principles at an early age?
28:25 Speaker 01 The best book about this, I thought, was certainly not mine, was a book called Hunt, Gather, Parent. And she says that just like there's an innate drive for a lot of things, like eating and, you know, sleeping, there's an innate drive in kids to help out. They really want to be part of something. And the part of something is your family or your community. I didn't read this book when my kids were young, so it didn't work. But it seems like a great idea for other people, which is have them help out. And I know it takes forever. And I know they will spill. And they'll do a lousy job of cleaning up. But if you could have them like, you know, fold the napkins for dinner or sort the laundry. Not that I even sort the laundry. You don't have to sort your laundry. Just do it on cold. It's so obvious. But just have them do some things. They love being part of stuff. There was a lecture here or talk by Jennifer Wallace
29:10 Speaker 01 about how everybody wants to matter. Well, you know, weave them into the fabric of everyday life, and then they don't even have to question that. Of course, I'm the kid who takes out the garbage. And as they get older, just have them do more stuff in the real world and then have them do it without you. And they can always do it with a friend or a sibling. So if you're afraid of them just being by themselves at the grocery, have them go with a friend. But there's nothing more exhilarating than being competent. I mean, it feels great. I feel great. I just did my TED Talk. I'm done. A pinnacle of confidence for me. It feels so good. Why would we take that away from our kids by doing everything with them and for them and always assisting them? You know, the message they get is that you love me and you don't think I'm really that smart.
29:50 Chris Duffy? And it feels like when kids get to be teenagers, they have a very natural push of like, even if you are trying to not have them be independent, they're gonna say like, I wanna be independent. I need this space.
30:01 Speaker 01 I wonder if that's getting extinguished too. I I've seen kids who are in middle school, maybe not high schoolers. They seem sometimes, and I haven't seen that many schools, and I've seen kids in school, so maybe that's the problem, but they seem really passive. And you want that drive to be there, even if it drives you nuts.
30:19 Chris Duffy? Yeah. For thinking about like the practical thing that someone could do, what if they are, they're listening to this? They watch your talk, they read your book, and they're like, okay, I'm kind of sold on this, but I haven't been doing this.
30:29 Speaker 01 Oh, so so.
30:30 Chris Duffy? What's the first step to to start?
30:32 Speaker 01 Send them out to help you do something, you know, go get something, go run an errand, go talk to the neighbor. Help me with this, or do this instead of me. I've been doing this for you. I bet you could do this now.
30:43 Chris Duffy? It's interesting because it really is so simple, right?
30:45 Speaker 01 It's so simple that I'm supposed to be writing now a thirty days to a let grow kid. And I have resisted this for seventeen years because I think like, duh. You know, it's like, open the door, let him go play outside, let him, I keep saying the same things. Have them run an errand, have them get themselves to their guitar class, whatever. And I'm realizing that people do want instruction because we've almost been instructed to expect instruction. And when you just told me at the beginning of this talk that you're getting stuff in your social media feed every day on how to talk to your kid and feed your kid and whatever else you're getting.
31:22 Chris Duffy? Yeah.
31:22 Speaker 01 I guess I didn't realize how much prescription was being shoved down parents' throats.
31:30 Speaker 01 I didn't want to be part of that. But if that's how people get their information and sort of get, get the permission to do new things, then I gotta, I gotta get with the program. I gotta write that thing.
31:40 Chris Duffy? I do think that there's so much of that information out there. And I do think that this makes so much sense. I also think that it is really countercultural. There, there are a lot of forces that are saying like, that is a wild radical idea, even though it's so simple. That's what, that's the message that I get from the parenting media that is served to me and from the parents on the playground and all the other places is like, that's wild.
32:04 Speaker 01 But if people understood how much kids learn when they're not with us and when they're not in a class, then they wouldn't keep thinking that it was like either kids were being safe and educated or lying fallow and they're in danger. There's, so the Yale study took parents coming into a museum in Philadelphia and they told group A, the kids were like five years old, your kid has to put on all this hockey gear because that will get them in the mood for the museum. And then group B was told, um, your kids have to put on this hockey gear. And let me tell you, every time they're trying to figure out how to do that toggle or how to pull on that boot, they are learning. Each of those is a learning experience.
32:47 Speaker 01 And then they clicked to see how many times parents were helping the kids. And the ones who knew that it was, who'd been told this is a learning experience intervened half as much. Because they are immediately recognized like, okay, he's struggling, but their synapses are building, you know, and cognitive ability is kicking in. If everybody understood that about independence, that even when a kid is waiting at the bus stop and the bus doesn't come and it's late, realizing like, oh, I should go home again. Or I guess it's time for me to walk to school. All that's executive function. That's paying attention. That's a, agency, the big word of the year, agency. Then maybe they could step back because they would see how much is going on when they're not teaching them and not watching them.
33:33 Speaker 01 And that's also what I want people to recognize about play. Like when kids are given time to just, just play. Oh, my God, it's just. Just child's play. I wish they would get that play out of the way so they could get back to learning. You're learning so much when you're playing and you're making friends and you're getting exercise. And so there's like, it is the most nutrient-dense thing that kids could do for their minds and their bodies and their future selves and their social lives and their joy.
34:00 Chris Duffy? Hmm.
34:00 Speaker 01 Right? And we're all worried about kids being anxious and depressed. Look, well, we have a natural cure here. It's called free play. Kids are driven to do it. We keep replacing it with travel soccer. If you step back, actually, that is an enriching experience for them. I think that if people recognize that, at least they would sign their kids up for free play after school, just the way they sign them up for chess.
34:22 Chris Duffy? It's reflective to me also of, in American culture, there is a real push to not have moments of inactivity or boredom or silence, right? Like, I go from working on my computer to I'm actively doing something. And then while I'm waiting for the bus, I'm looking on my phone. There's really, like, I'm never supposed to be...
34:43 Speaker 01 It's not even ever supposed to be. It's, it is boring to be bored.
34:46 Chris Duffy? Yeah.
34:46 Speaker 01 And now there's a lot of ways to get out of that very quickly, and I do it all the time, too. But I don't think it's frowned upon. I just think that there's so much water that immediately seeps in. So I gotta tell you, this one guy I met here, Adam Har Horowitz, he studies dreams. And he said, collectively, our dreams are getting less interesting. Why?
35:05 Chris Duffy? Wow.
35:06 Speaker 01 Why?
35:07 Chris Duffy? I guess because we don't have as much boredom or free time.
35:10 Speaker 01 When we're bored now, we immediately go to our phones, which I do, even when I'm in the, you know, checkout line. And so we've gotten less good at daydreaming, so we're less good at night dreaming.
35:20 Chris Duffy? Wow, that is fascinating.
35:21 Speaker 01 Isn't that wild?
35:22 Chris Duffy? That is really wild. You know, sometimes with, with issues like this, which are cultural, but they're also, you know, parenting and they're societal, there are models of other places that do it better. And one, one that I think about is, I love the, the TV show Old Enough.
35:37 Speaker 01 Yeah.
35:37 Chris Duffy? I think it is so fun. It's incredible. It's just like Japanese kids, often very young,
35:41 Speaker 01 Yeah.
35:41 Chris Duffy? doing errands outside of the house. And it is so funny.
35:44 Speaker 01 Yeah.
35:45 Chris Duffy? And it's also just, especially watching it as an American, you're like...
35:48 Speaker 01 And especially if you've got a toddler.
35:49 Chris Duffy? It'll be like a... Six year old will like go harvest spring onions and then like sell them at the market and then come back with like a whole thing of sushi and the mom is like, hooray, you did it. Or the funniest episodes are where they completely fail at the task and they like decide to go off the rails. But it's not because they fail in the way that like we're scared of.
36:07 Speaker 01 Right.
36:07 Chris Duffy? Right. It's like, he's like, actually, I want orange juice instead. So then he goes and buys orange juice instead of the groceries. But that is indicative, right? Like the fact that they can make that show in Japan and it wasn't like Japan's most wanted criminals who let the kids do this.
36:20 Speaker 01 Right, right. So people think that it's, of course, if we lived in Japan, we'd all be doing that. But there's two things going on there. One is it's the society that says it's fine. But two, it's a society that recognizes that a six year old, and actually those kids go down to two, which seems a little young, are competent. Or can be reasonably competent enough to the point where you can film them doing something. So, and what I really love, there's one episode where it's, it's a girl who's like about five and her brother who's three and they're going, they're always going to get something for sushi. And the little boy is crying his eyes out at the beginning. And if this was American TV, cut. You know, or a mother like, how's the mother gonna let him go? He's crying, honey. Why aren't you going to soothe him? It's like, because
37:01 Speaker 01 he's gonna be beyond soothed by going to the butcher and then going to the rice store and going to the vegetable place and then going to the fish that they go to like, you know, like a five course meal. Right. And at the end, you know, he's really happy and proud and that dip is something that we almost don't allow. And it's really hard to allow it in American culture because we think we have to jump in when our kids are disappointed or a little frustrated or whatever, which is why my whole message boils down to we can't be with them all the time. But when you're with your kid and they're, you know, confused or hurt, you inevitably step in, or even if they're sub optimized, let me do that for you. That's taking forever.
37:43 Speaker 01 So the only way to not jump in is to not be there to jump in. So that's why the message becomes pretty basic, which is we can't always be with our kids. You can't have an adult always with your kids or they will change childhood.
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39:42 Chris Duffy? Hi there. It's Adam Grant from TED's Rethinking Podcast, and this episode is brought to you by ServiceNow. I get to spend my days studying how people think and what it actually takes to change our minds. It's work I find deeply meaningful. But even in meaningful work, there's still busy work. The admin, the repetitive processes, the invisible load that pulls attention away from what really matters. That's where ServiceNow's AI specialists come in. They don't just tell you what you should do about your busy work. They actually do it. Start to finish, cases closed, requests handled, no extra work for you. To learn how to put AI to work for people, visit servicenow.com.
40:22 Chris Duffy? I grew up in New York City.
40:23 Speaker 01 Yay.
40:23 Chris Duffy? And
40:24 Speaker 01 Where?
40:25 Chris Duffy? I grew up on the Upper West Side.
40:26 Speaker 01 Okay.
40:26 Chris Duffy? And when people ask me what it was like to grow up in New York, one of the things that I always tell them is that the best time was when I was old enough to do things on my own, but not old enough to drive a car. And that for a lot of kids, that's a really boring period of time.
40:40 Speaker 01 And, right, and a horrible time for parents because they are stuck driving the car the whole time.
40:44 Chris Duffy? But for me, I can be like, I'm gonna go walk to my friend John's house. We're gonna go to the movies. We're gonna go to a concert downtown. And when I think about what informed my sense of self, my passions, my, the kind of music that I like, the kind of movies I like, just like who I am, so much of it was having that independence in a place where there was a lot going on. And so I share that to say like, it would have been such a different experience and so negative if my parents had said, you live in a city, it's dangerous, you can't do those things. Instead of saying, this is the benefit of where you live, is that you get to do those things. And then the first time, like my dad, I know you have a very personal relationship to letting your kid take the subway.
41:25 Speaker 01 Yeah.
41:26 Chris Duffy? But there's like, there's a moment in our, in my family history that's like, we always laugh about, which is that the first time my parents let me take the subway alone, my dad like secretly followed me and like rode in the car behind me. But that's a funny story to me because he didn't keep doing that. Like he just did it that one time and then he was like, okay, you're fine. And so I think like that independence is, it let me be who I am. But I also, I realized that must have been pretty scary for my parents to allow that. Like, it must have been nerve wracking and uncomfortable, even though it was so important to me.
41:57 Speaker 01 Right. So another thing that strikes me as strange about our culture is that people think like, they can be parents without worrying. Like, are you kidding? Are you kidding? Have you ever had even a goldfish? And now you have a kid?
42:10 Chris Duffy? Yeah.
42:10 Speaker 01 Right? And so that's one of the reasons that all this surveillance and tracking and, you know, constant knowledge of our kids is supposed to, you know, supposed to alleviate that worry. And it doesn't. Worry is part of the deal. And your worry is sort of a small price to pay for your kids thriving.
42:30 Speaker 01 Small price to pay. It's a pig. I hate worry. I hate worry and I do worry. People think I don't worry. The only thing I don't worry about is the subway. And strangers. I worry, oh my god, my kids drive. I can't even, they don't even tell me. Like, my son drove to Canada from New York recently and it's like, he didn't let me know. And I was grateful because I didn't know.
42:48 Chris Duffy? It's also as an adult, I feel like, another genre of social media video, and we actually have interviewed him on the show, is Jia Zhang. He wrote a book called Rejection Therapy.
42:57 Speaker 01 Oh, the guy who went around trying to like do things that would always get rejected, like ordering lobster at McDonald's?
43:02 Chris Duffy? Exactly. And what he found, he's very focused on adults doing this for themselves. But what he found was, all these things that he built up in his head. As like, if I go to the donut store and say, can you make me one giant donut instead of six normal sized donuts? Of course they'll say no. And not only will they say no, they'll get mad at me and kick me out. And instead, what he found is that like, sometimes people said no, and it wasn't a big deal. And often, people said yes and were excited. And then he had like this great connection and relationship. So I do think there's this element of what you're working on with parents to do to their kids, that also a lot of adults, we need to do for ourselves, which is to say like, a lot of what I'm fearful about in the world, if I tested that against reality, wouldn't hold up. And instead, I would have
43:43 Chris Duffy? a more magical, exciting and connected life if I just trusted a little bit more.
43:49 Speaker 01 Trust is the key.
43:50 Chris Duffy? But living in the United States, social trust is not our strongest suit, especially not in this moment. But like, I guess I'm wondering, like, even for people who aren't parents, or for parents who are not thinking about this with their own kids, what can we do to challenge our assumptions?
44:05 Speaker 01 I got an easy one.
44:05 Chris Duffy? That this world is, that we shouldn't trust people and that it is a dangerous and vicious place out there.
44:11 Speaker 01 So there was this other cool experiment done with college students. Half the group of 300 kids was told to read some article about like, the world is a nice place. And the other half were said, okay, for five days next week, on day one, you have to compliment somebody whose shoes you like. Day two, you have to compliment somebody whose earrings, hearings, you like. You know, day three, something else. Ask somebody the time. And everybody who was asked beforehand, you know, are you gonna, and how do you feel about, oh, I'm gonna look like an idiot, people are gonna Be annoyed and of course, the people who ended up actually interacting with their fellow humans found the opposite and then they kept wanting to talk to humans because reality is really way better than whatever is going on in our head, which is why
44:54 Speaker 01 all I'm trying to do is come up with ways of forcing reality upon parents so that they get to live in the real world instead of this terrible world that our culture has foisted into our head of everything being dangerous and our kids being in constant peril.
45:11 Chris Duffy? There's a real strong pressure to be like, your kid is a representation of you. You're supposed to get things from your kid. You're supposed to get validation and you're supposed to get social approval and you're supposed to get all of these things. And that I think is a really strong force to think like, it's not just you're supposed to love them and you're supposed to do your best for them. It's also that if they're in the playground and they're like playing badly, it's on you.
45:36 Speaker 01 Yeah, it's embarrassing. That's why if you're with your kid all the time, of course you'll intervene because honey, we use our indoor voice. Or honey, we share our toys and the kid's going bam. You know what though? People will feel really great if your kid is bad because then they'll feel good. So your kid will always be invited.
45:53 Chris Duffy? But I feel this even like I try and push back on this for myself, but then I feel this like, I'll give you a small example.
45:58 Speaker 01 Yeah.
45:59 Chris Duffy? I know that the way that you learn to use a spoon is by using a spoon. So if I'm alone and we're eating food, I'll be like, use the spoon, make a mess. But then if someone else is in our house, I'm like, it's gonna be embarrassing to have the mess. Maybe I shouldn't let him eat with the spoon. Maybe I should give him food that is not messy so that they don't see mess.
46:22 Speaker 01 One of those things.
46:23 Chris Duffy? Yeah. I understand that not as like an instinct that is in the best interest of my child as much as it is in the best interest of the social image I have of myself.
46:33 Speaker 01 So try to get rid of that social image. Good luck. It'd be good if you could because everybody knows that kids are total messes. What I wouldn't want to be around your kid with a spoon is if they're gonna fling it. Also, nobody's paying that much attention. It's sort of like, I remember in junior high being so acutely aware at a bar mitzvah of no one dancing with me. And I think that nobody was paying attention and I'm weirded out that I still feel that way to a certain extent, like everybody's talking at Ted, doesn't anyone want to talk to me? I think that we're all creatures of intense mortification.
47:07 Speaker 01 And self-consciousness. And if you could just realize how little anybody cares, or is judging a toddler for not using a spoon well, you could ease up.
47:18 Chris Duffy? Great. I love that. Thank you so much for being on the show.
47:20 Speaker 01 Oh, thank you. This was, this was a wild round.
47:26 Chris Duffy? That is it for today's episode of How to Be a Better Human. Thank you so much to our guest, Lenora Schenese. Her book is called Free Range Kids, and you can find more information about her at freerangekids.com and letgrow.org. I am your host, Chris Duffy, and my book, Humor Me, about how to laugh more every day, is available for preorder now. You can find out more about the book and all of my other projects at chrisduffycomedy.com. How to Be a Better Human is put together by a team who supervise me in a very free-range way. On the TED side, we've got trusting, independent pod parents, Daniela Balarezzo, Ben Ben Chang, Michelle Quint, Chloe Shasha Brooks, Valentina Bohanini, Lainey Lott, Tansuka Sungmanivong, Antonio Le, and Joseph DeBry. This episode was fact-checked by Julia
48:08 Chris Duffy? Dickerson and Mateus Salas, who insist on supervising the truth. On the PRX side, we've got fully-realized, independent adults, Morgan Flannery, Nora Gill, Patrick Grant, and Jocelyn Gonzalez. Thanks again to you for listening. Please share this episode with a person who is a model of independence and trust for you. We will be back next week with even more How to Be a Better Human. Until then, take care and thanks for listening.
48:36 Chris Duffy? This episode is sponsored by the Natural Resources Defense Council. Here's a question this show asks a lot. What can one person actually do? Take protecting the environment. When the task feels so big, it's hard to know where to even begin. Turns out, the answer isn't doing it alone. It's teaming up with people who care as much as you do. With the help of 3 million supporters, the Natural Resources Defense Council is in court to defend ancient forests, pristine coasts, and the wildlife that depend on them. None of these places or species can be replaced. They're still here because people fought for them, in and out of court. And that fight needs your support today. Donate at nrdc.org/human, and your gift will be matched five times.
49:26 Speaker 04 Hi there. It's Adam Grant from TED's Rethinking Podcast, and this episode is brought to you by ServiceNow. I get to spend my days studying how people think and what it actually takes to change our minds. It's work I find deeply meaningful. But even in meaningful work, there's still busy work. The admin, the repetitive processes, the invisible load that pulls attention away from what really matters. That's where ServiceNow's AI specialists come in. They don't just tell you what you should do about your busy work. They actually do it. Start to finish, cases closed, requests handled, no extra work for you. To learn how to put AI to work for people, visit servicenow.com.
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50:33 Speaker 06 I've got big news. I switched to Verizon and got the new iPhone 18 Pro. Shh. I can keep my old phone. And I also get the latest iPhone every year. Shh. Anything else? Verizon let me choose Apple Watch Series 12 or iPad on them. Everybody, listen up. Shh. Switch to Verizon and get the new iPhone 18 Pro now. No trade-in needed. And the latest iPhone every year with Simplicity Plan. Plus, choose Apple Watch Series 12 or iPad on us. Simplicity Plan with Simplicity Pro required. Plan and device payment purchase are separate agreements with separate terms. Service plan for Watch or iPad required. Additional terms apply for all offers.
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