Ts Madison Talks Being Comfortable in Her Skin

You might know her from one of her many viral social media moments, “RuPaul’s Drag Race,” or her iconic feature on Beyonce’s “Cozy.” Today’s guest is loud, proud, and unapologetically herself. Ts Madison is here to spill all the tea on the commercialization of trans culture, and tell us how she became comfortable in her own skin. She also opens up about letting go of guilt and learning how to reconnect with real emotions after working in the sex industry. You’re not gonna want to miss a second of this real talk—it’s raw, it’s powerful, and it might just leave you seeing yourself a little differently too. See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Keke Palmer?

  This episode is sponsored by our friends over at Airbnb. If you're itching for your next weekend getaway, remember, some trips are better in an Airbnb. Now let's get this thing going.

• 0:15Keke Palmer?

  Hey guys, it's your girl Keke Palmer and today I want to talk about the commercialization of communities, or the commodification. Specifically, I'm talking about the trans community. And I'm wondering what exactly feels like it makes sense and people are learning, and what feels like is being used as a fad. So I'm bringing on TS Madison and I want to hear all about it from her perspective as a black trans woman. Get ready because baby, this is Keke Palmer.

• 1:09Keke Palmer?

  Okay, so Sharon, I'm excited to talk about this with you because obviously, anything and everything can be commercialized. And it makes me think about, um, it makes me think about actually the movie Edward Scissorhands. You remember Edward Scissorhands?

• 1:21Speaker 01

  Yes, yes, yes, yes.

• 1:22Keke Palmer?

  As a kid, I was kind of like, okay, the motherfucker got scissorhands, excuse me. But then as time went on, like, and obviously a couple of Reddit threads, I realized that it was actually about the commodification of uniqueness, or just being you, being different, standing out, and how at first you can be, you know, people can come at you for being whoever you are, whatever your culture is. And then very quickly, it can become like, ooh, I love it. And kind of, you know, speaking to like, what is the fine line of? Not necessarily just commercializing something, but making something feel, like making something normalized because it's important.

• 1:58Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:59Keke Palmer?

  Especially when we're talking about communities where people are marginalized, being killed, being hurt, etc.

• 2:03Speaker 01

  Right.

• 2:04Keke Palmer?

  The commercialization of it sometimes makes it feel more relatable. People are educated, they can understand more.

• 2:09Speaker 01

  Right.

• 2:09Keke Palmer?

  But then also it can create this thing where everybody's just like, "I'm in it." You know, it's like, where do you draw the line? Like a fad, yeah. Like a fad, or appropriation, or you know what I'm saying?

• 2:19Speaker 01

  Of course.

• 2:19Keke Palmer?

  So, I'm curious from you, what it's been like witnessing the commercialization of just blackness? I know that was a big one.

• 2:27Speaker 01

  Well, you know, I've been black my whole life.

• 2:29Keke Palmer?

  Really?

• 2:31Speaker 01

  So, I mean, obviously I've seen the fads and the trends and, you know, they come and go. And it's just, you know, it's kind of funny, you know? When I was in high school, it was the era of Michael Jackson and Prince. So, you had, you know, a lot of people trying to emulate Michael Jackson.

• 2:49Keke Palmer?

  Lot of heels and high waters?

• 2:50Speaker 01

  Yes, and a lot of Prince and all this kind of stuff. And, um, yeah, I mean, you know, it's funny to watch it, but it's also flattery, right? You know?

• 3:01Keke Palmer?

  I mean, it's interesting, right? Because once something becomes popular, it becomes commercialized.

• 3:06Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 3:07Keke Palmer?

  Once it becomes so-

• 3:07Speaker 01

  And it blurs the lines.

• 3:08Keke Palmer?

  And it blurs the line. Like, um, you know, when you think about a movie like Dear White People, they talk about that a lot. In that movie, if you remember that movie.

• 3:17Speaker 01

  I do.

• 3:17Keke Palmer?

  Where they kind of just speak about, anytime your culture or you living your truth of who you are, and it becomes popular, whether it's you doing a movie, or you doing a video that goes viral, or anything, it then becomes something that everybody has access to, and everybody feels a part of. And I think that's where people kind of are confused of like, well, what exactly is appropriation? Because if it's out there and I see it, and then I want to be a part of it, what makes it a problem?

• 3:42Speaker 01

  Right.

• 3:43Keke Palmer?

  So, it's just like the conversations that people have around somebody wearing braids and not being black.

• 3:47Speaker 01

  Right, right, right.

• 3:48Keke Palmer?

  Or somebody, um, doing rap music and not being black.

• 3:50Speaker 01

  Right.

• 3:51Keke Palmer?

  What, you know, because don't you want everybody to love rap music or be a part of it? Or do you not?

• 3:56Speaker 01

  Well, this was huge in my generation. There was a model, her name was Bo Derek.

• 4:01Keke Palmer?

  Mm-hmm.

• 4:03Speaker 01

  I'll never forget, she, she wore the French braids, blonde French braids, and they had this famous commercial where she's coming out of the water, and she's shaking her French braids. That shit caused the most drama in our community. Because it was like, bitch, we been doing that for years. Braiding our hair, putting beads on, and nobody gave a shit about us. You know what I mean?

• 4:29Keke Palmer?

  Well, I mean, it was still a big thing when they called, I forget what the hell the old girl called them, but it became a thing where the new name was Boxer Braids or something. Everybody's, what the hell, them's cornrows. And so, I mean, it's still a thing where people feel that way.

• 4:41Speaker 01

  When you get it, you try to change the name. So that was a big moment in my, in my, um, you know, teenage years for that. Also, I would say, uh, doo doo doo doo doo doo doo doo.

• 4:53Keke Palmer?

  Oh!

• 4:56Speaker 01

  Ice, Ice Baby. Oh, my gosh.

• 4:58Keke Palmer?

  Come on!

• 4:59Speaker 01

  I don't know if anybody, everybody knew.

• 5:01Keke Palmer?

  That song was a hit.

• 5:02Speaker 01

  That song was a hit. It, it, but it was like, black people was in uproars about that because they was like, what the?

• 5:10Keke Palmer?

  Yeah.

• 5:11Speaker 01

  This guy came out of nowhere, got the biggest song ever, and he's looking like, you know, Vanilla Ice.

• 5:19Speaker 01

  So that was a big uproar as, as well. But you know who wasn't an uproar? And I think it's because she really did play the part very well was Madonna. I do, I think.

• 5:32Keke Palmer?

  Well, hey, honey, a lot of the queens, because I actually spoke about this when I did, um, oh, my gosh, when I did Legendary.

• 5:37Speaker 01

  Uh huh.

• 5:38Keke Palmer?

  And some of the girls were like, oh, no, no, no, no, we hate that. And so it's interesting because there's one, obviously, everybody has a different POV. Just like when we talking about with, with black people when it comes to, I care about somebody wearing braids to, I don't give a fuck who wears braids.

• 5:50Speaker 01

  Right.

• 5:51Keke Palmer?

  And then also with the queer community, some people are like, I love that Madonna shined a light. And then other people are like, Madonna put her name on something that wasn't hers.

• 5:59Keke Palmer?

  It's very, everybody has a different opinion on how they feel about what it means to show love to their, to a culture.

• 6:06Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 6:06Keke Palmer?

  And the way that you do it. Like, for instance, recently, Ariana Grande, let me say something about Ariana Grande. When I went to her 16th birthday party, huge birthday party, very dramatic. Homegirl was onstage singing with Patti LaBelle. So she has always been-

• 6:22Speaker 01

  Miss Patty?

• 6:23Keke Palmer?

  She had- Ladies and gentlemen, Patti LaBelle. Girl, you're 16. Why is Patti LaBelle performing at your goddamn birthday party, boo? You know what I mean? But even to this day, the way her relationship with Victoria Monet and her, just her, her obvious love for black culture.

• 6:40Speaker 01

  Right, it's just, you feel that's authentic.

• 6:43Keke Palmer?

  I mean, she just did "The Boy Is Mine" and had, I remember I was in the car listening, it was a Boy Is Mine remix. And I'm listening, and all of a sudden I hear something change in the track, and I said, "Who the hell is that? Do Brandy got something new out?" And they were like, "This is Ariana." And so the remix of the song, she got Brandy and Monica reunited on the track, doing that vibe. I really loved it, and again, for me, it was like, okay. Okay.

• 7:07Speaker 01

  Well, she's just giving credit where credit is due.

• 7:09Keke Palmer?

  Again, even when we think about Beyonce and Cozy, and how she, the whole Renaissance was an ode to ballroom, you know, but she's not necessarily a part of ballroom. But I think, obviously, again, a lot of people had stuff to say about that. I think most people loved it and loved her shining that light, but then every now and then, people were, "Oh, you didn't get it right, or you didn't, how do you do it?" You know what I'm saying?

• 7:27Speaker 01

  Well, you can't please everybody.

• 7:29Keke Palmer?

  You can't.

• 7:29Speaker 01

  And I've said that to you, you know, all my kids, is that, you know, ultimately, you just gotta do what's in your heart, be kind, be respectful, and then just go on to do what you wanna do, 'cause there's gonna always be somebody who got something to say, and you just can't play to the small people in the room.

• 7:46Keke Palmer?

  But I even remember with me, you remember when I did Pimp and I was on set with Rainey, and she kept saying, "That's the gag, girl." And then I loved it so much that I kept saying, "The gag is, the gag is, the gag is." And then I remember, at the same time, I had seen the movie Paris is Burning. I think it was Rosero, Rosero McCoy, who had me watch that movie where the gag was first invented. And it was that thing where I remember, some people were like, "Wait a minute, you, you know, what is this? You, this is from the community. This, you know, you know, needs to know where it came from." And it's that thing of just always making sure, like- You want to show love, you want to represent, but you want to make sure you do it in a way where you're showing the proper respect.

• 8:26Speaker 01

  Right, and I'm glad that you brought that up because during that time when you were saying the gag, the gag and all this stuff, you know, there was a writer, he was a writer, a blogger, and he was purposely attacking you and he was saying things like, um, why are you using our word? And why are you an influencer? That's what he basically said. He was like, you're a successful actor, you can get real jobs. We can't, and so why are you taking work from us? And I was like, this is a black girl who's trying to work just like you, sir. And she's not taking anything from you. The gag first originated during the roaring twenties. You can go back and look at the roaring twenties, they were saying the gag and they were saying where it's like,

• 9:10Speaker 01

  gee gags and all this type of stuff. So it wasn't originated when people think it was originated, it just was used in a different way. The word the gag was, you can go look in the roaring twenties, they were using it then.

• 9:22Keke Palmer?

  But it is true that the style in which that it was being used, I mean, obviously I was making it a little bit kooky, but the actual vibe of it, even with Raimi, it did come from ballroom, but I was never in a denouncement of that. I just think I'm using it as an example to say that like, sometimes you could just be showing love and being, you know, you are of the community in the, in that world, so you're just using language that's natural to you.

• 9:45Speaker 01

  And you weren't using it thinking it was gonna get you no money.

• 9:49Keke Palmer?

  Definitely not.

• 9:50Speaker 01

  You know, I'm gonna use this word because it's gonna get me money. And I mean, you was just having fun with it and for people to attack you in that way, it just was just very weird to me.

• 10:00Keke Palmer?

  I think it just goes to that thing of what we're talking about with, I'm very excited to talk about with T S Madison is the commercialization of marginalized groups, whether it be language or vibe or style, and I think that's a big thing. Well, we don't know how to distinguish.

• 10:13Speaker 01

  I'm just getting it when you just said what you said. They thought because you were a commercial entertainer, you were taking a phrase that was used in a marginalized community and using it for your benefit.

• 10:26Keke Palmer?

  Well, yeah, and honestly, that actually is true. Even though that was not my intention, I am a black woman that can use it and get light maybe in a way that they could not.

• 10:36Speaker 01

  But I always thought you was marginalized.

• 10:39Keke Palmer?

  Well, then there's that too.

• 10:40Speaker 01

  So you was okay for you to use that word?

• 10:43Keke Palmer?

  That's the conversation. Where do you draw the line? What is the line that's to be drawn? How is that? Because the same way that somebody's like, "I was just wearing braids because I just love braids, and my homegirl wore them and I love them," is the same way that you, you're saying, "Well, she was just saying the gag." They're not thinking about it like that. And so I think that is the conversation. What does it mean when culture becomes for everybody? And as a marginalized person, other people decide who gets to benefit from that language, from that style, from that vibe. And I think that's very huge where the trans community has been completely, the most influenced, you know what I'm saying, that we have seen always, but it's becoming more obvious and more apparent now,

• 11:23Keke Palmer?

  but not always are trans people, especially black trans people, getting the stage.

• 11:30Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 11:30Keke Palmer?

  And that's why I think it's so dope for people like G S.

• 11:33Speaker 01

  I agree what you're saying. So my last question to you is, I think it's about intention.

• 11:39Keke Palmer?

  Yeah.

• 11:39Speaker 01

  So what was your intention whenever you used "that's the gag"?

• 11:44Keke Palmer?

  Oh, I was just, I, I, I didn't initially even know about where it came from. I was using it with Raimi, who obviously Raimi, she knows, you know? So I was just working with her and I lived for the word, and so I was using the word. And then, you know, Rosero told me about Paris is Burning, I believe it was him, or it might have been Lee Daniels. Then I watched that movie and I was living for that and living for what I learned from it. And then at that point, I mean, I just, I was just paying homage. And I was just also just saying the gag and just living in that. I wasn't necessarily thinking about the impact of it.

• 12:14Speaker 01

  You didn't have any, you know, motives of making money and putting it on T-shirts and...

• 12:19Keke Palmer?

  No, absolutely not. But I do think, again, that is the thing where I'm not, I think this is the question that we all ask ourselves when we're looking at stuff. Are we... You know, when you see people acting like NeNe Leaks. You know, how do NeNe Leaks feel about that? You know, you know what I mean? I don't know that everybody is definitely trying to be intentional, but that is the whole thing within the system, right? Systemically, people that are marginalized don't get to benefit from what they create. And I think that was the point of what was being made. Obviously, no, that wasn't my intention. And no, it's not my fault that I'm marginalized, that the queer community is marginalized, which I'm a part of. I'm, it's not, nobody's, it's not anybody's fault that society has done this. But there is something to be said about how we are able to enjoy,

• 13:03Keke Palmer?

  celebrate, be a part of one another's culture, but also advocate for one another when it comes to us getting a stage. But it is, I think that is the thing. When things become commercialized, who gets to benefit from that commerciality? And a lot of times, it's not the marginalized.

• 13:18Speaker 01

  Drop the mic on that.

• 13:20Keke Palmer?

  All right. Well, Sharon, let me get into it with TS. You're everything as always.

• 13:30Keke Palmer?

  All right, y'all, let's get into some vacation math for a hot second. Okay, so let's say we got four best friends who are all in desperate need of a reset and maybe a multi-day girlfriends marathon. To me, the solution is simple. A last-minute girl's trip in an Airbnb, baby. Sometimes you just don't want to be cramped up in a room trying to get your rest and relaxation on. Trust me, some trips are just better in an Airbnb. Take my 30th birthday, for example. I just wanted to spend quality time with my girlies, and instead of us having to squeeze into a teeny-danny hotel room, we were able to book a local guest favorites listing that had a backyard, okay, listen closely, jacuzzi, and enough room for us all to sit back and get our gap fest on. Talk about an amazing birthday present. And the best part? The privacy.

• 14:16Keke Palmer?

  You know us Virgos need some peace and quiet every once in a while. And with Airbnb, I can make sure I am booking a place far away from prying eyes. So go ahead, book that last-minute getaway and make some memories. Your friends will thank you later.

• 14:30Speaker 02

  Baby, this is, this is Kiki.

• 14:34Keke Palmer?

  Guys, I am so excited to chat with today's guest. Okay, you might know her voice from the Beyonce song, "Cozy", or as one of the judges on RuPaul's Drag Race. She published a memoir in 2015 entitled, "A Light Through the Shade", an autobiography of a queen. And in 2021, she became the first black trans woman to star in her own reality show, The T.S. Madison Experience. T.S., honey, welcome to the show.

• 14:58Speaker 03

  Yes, Kiki, Kiki, do you love me? Are we riding?

• 15:06Keke Palmer?

  Every time I see you, it's really too much because like I told you, you cannot come to my show and outbeat me, honey. This face, this hair, these titties, everything is giving me life.

• 15:16Speaker 03

  Well, see, Kiki, you gotta understand that when you, when you are a girl... See, there's a difference between being a woman and then there's being a girl. When you're a girl, you have to stay beat, darling. Because, you know, you got to. Because I'm into like, why be natural when you can be supernatural?

• 15:36Keke Palmer?

  Oh, and that's on period.

• 15:38Speaker 03

  That's on period.

• 15:40Keke Palmer?

  Absolutely. I mean, before we get into everything I want to talk about, because I want to talk about that today, of course. But I want to first ask you, how you been? The last time I seen you was when you were hosting the LGBTQ Gala.

• 15:51Speaker 03

  Yeah, and you had got that, you had got the award. I was so happy to see you.

• 15:54Keke Palmer?

  I was so happy, the Vanguard Award.

• 15:56Speaker 03

  You deserved every bit of the award that you received. Um, I, people don't understand this, and I say this all the time. We just did a interview because RuPaul's Drag Race, Season 16, was nominated for an Emmy.

• 16:10Keke Palmer?

  Okay, period.

• 16:12Speaker 03

  It was nominated for an Emmy, with 10 Emmy nominations.

• 16:15Keke Palmer?

  That Emmy being within hand reach is everything. That Emmy was like, like, boom.

• 16:18Speaker 03

  Yes. And so what happens is, in the, in the climate that we're in right now, Kiki... Legislation and and the way the government is running is trying to erase people of the L B G T community, even those that are deeply into it or and those that are adjacent. And so people have to understand that your presence and your visibility is your advocacy and activism because they want to erase your presence. And so when we have people who say, well, hey, I'm queer. I I can't figure it all the way out like what it is, you know, but I know that I'm not in the in the in the regular arena.

• 16:57Keke Palmer?

  Yeah, I'm not what you consider what you're saying and considering as a normal quote unquote, I'm not.

• 17:01Speaker 03

  Yeah. So it is so and that's a part of being visible, being big and and and letting other people know, hey, it's okay to be exactly who you are and live in exactly who you are and and be outside of what people consider the norm.

• 17:14Keke Palmer?

  That's right. I couldn't agree with that more. And I do think it's obviously we're still up against so many different things. But when we talk about drag culture or the trans community or just the queer community in general, a lot of that has become more commercialized. And I'm curious as to what you think, obviously being one of the people that have put it in the forefront in that way and allow people to see it in a way that maybe they hadn't before. Um, how do you feel about the commercialization? How much do you think that is helping? And how much do you think that it it is also kind of like maybe almost, I don't even know what the word would be, but I don't want to say hurting, but making it a challenge at the same time? Not just being a surface thing, I guess is what I'm saying.

• 17:51Speaker 03

  Well, it's just like fame. It's a gift and it's a curse. The more visible you are, the more vocal you are, the more it calls to action for people to come out and be exactly who they are. But it also can, you know, put people who are more vulnerable in danger. Like as as as a star, I'm yeah, I'm on television, I'm on some radio, some some like I'm on a lot of things, right? But there are other girls like myself that are not. And they are suffering in the background because, you know, a lot of us are visible. But again, it's a gift and a curse, Kiki, because. The more you have people saying, "It's okay to be loud, loud and in color. It's okay for you to live out loud. It's okay for you to be outside the box, okay."

• 18:36Speaker 03

  And the more people coming out, we still have more people like, "You should be silent." And I, I do think that homophobia and transphobia stems from places inside of people that have internalized it and who have not been able to really release themselves into the world and show up in the world like everybody else has been showing up in the world. And they see you as a reflection of them and it threatens them because they, they cannot walk authentically in their truth. And I'm not saying that everybody's gay, or everybody's trans, or everybody's trans attractive. But there is something about people living out loud that makes people who cannot feel a way. It, it doesn't matter what area of the spectrum you're on.

• 19:19Speaker 03

  When people are out loud and in color, you know, there, there are people that are angry with that and they don't understand, like, "I don't understand why I'm mad at this person. I don't understand why I don't like this person. I don't understand why this person can do and say these things and still continue to walk in society unbothered, unfazed, unmoved." When I want to say this and I want to do this and I want to live like this and I can't.

• 19:42Keke Palmer?

  Yeah, because bottom line is freedom. That's freedom. Anytime that you were being yourself, you're always going to be different than what is considered the norm. The norm is not even a real thing. Let's put it there. That's just whatever society has created. That's the symbolic nature of what we live in, in the earth. The truth is, whoever you are and whatever you're bringing to this world. But we've been so boxed in that, yeah, when people see other people living in their truth and living free, they, they're afraid. Um, but I want to know how you got to that point to be who you are today. Like, let's think back from when you were a kid. What was your, if you even had any connection to trans culture, drag culture? Like, what was your, what, what, you know, were you around it or did you find it? Did it find you?

• 20:23Speaker 03

  Well, see, it found me. It found me because my soul was searching for a place to fit. Um, when you grow up in a house where you're raised in a church, you know, because I was raised in the church. My mom, I, I, listen, I've been a church queen, honey, since I was seven years old.

• 20:39Keke Palmer?

  Yes!

• 20:40Speaker 03

  Yeah, but I've been a church queen, girl, honey. And I'm, and I'm being respectful in the park because I would've said I've been a church sissy girl since I was seven years old. And you know, uh, you don't understand it. You don't know what it is, but you're around all of these other people. And it's just like, why is everybody following the same pattern? Like, why is everybody following the same? I don't feel like this. This is not me. I don't, I don't fit into this box and I'm not gonna force myself to fit in the box. It was when I turned eighteen, like, cause I've been transitioning since I was around by seventeen. Like, I know because it starts here. You have to know in your mind, like, I, nah, I have brothers. I got boy cousins. I got, I'm not them.

• 21:23Speaker 03

  We, we not the same. I, I don't, you know, even in conversation, we don't, we not attracted to the same thing. I don't, I'm like, what's that? Like, honey, I'm, honey, I'm the, honey, I'm feminine. You know, so like they are, I'm not into that macho, mad stuff. I'm only into that when it's time to be a protector of myself, you know?

• 21:42Keke Palmer?

  Yeah.

• 21:42Speaker 03

  But I got to a space that I had to stand in the mirror and say, alright, look. Who you gonna do this for?

• 21:52Speaker 03

  Who, who, who you gonna make happy? You or people around you that you don't know if they're really happy or not?

• 21:58Keke Palmer?

  Uh, now heavy on the, you don't even know if they're happy or not, because if they're not happy or not, they don't even know how to, you know what I mean?

• 22:04Speaker 03

  Yeah. And so this is why I'm so deeply at peace with myself right now because, no, my life is not perfect. It hasn't always been the best, but it's life. But I do know that I'm walking through this world and walking through this earth. And people be like, oh, well, you not scared of God? No, I, I love God and, and God has heard me in every, and he loves me. And he's heard me in every single moment of my life path, talking to him, her, it, they, them, whatever is God's identity. It have heard me speaking to them and saying, God, if you get me through this, if you make me this way, if you, this is, I'm free. Like, I'm in your hands. Like, this is, this is my life. You knew, in my book, I said, if God knew.

• 22:46Speaker 03

  The numbers of hairs on your head, you already knew what you created.

• 22:51Keke Palmer?

  I love that you're saying this and speaking to this because this is important. I don't know why people who love God think that God don't love everybody, just them. Why do you think that God only loved you? And why do you think that you are more perfect than anyone else to receive that love? When the whole point of it all is to be loved unconditionally by something. We're not, if we're not gonna be loved unconditionally by each other, there is God that's gonna love us unconditionally for who we are. So, I really think it's important, you know what you're saying? Because I don't like when people all of a sudden want to say someone's gonna be hated or something. I had a friend of mine come to me and say, ask me about that. And I said, "God loves you, period." And it's not a conversation that anybody else can speak on. And when people try to project their ideologies of God onto other people, it really burns me to the ground because God is not a small thinker like you.

• 23:32Speaker 03

  No, he's not.

• 23:34Keke Palmer?

  Get it together.

• 23:34Speaker 03

  And God don't need your help to do a muck thing. He don't need your help to do nothing. He keep, he on the moon, the stars, he spoke and it was. So, he don't need you to do nothing. I respect everybody's beliefs because I want people to, you know. I respect everybody's beliefs, but I think that everybody's beliefs and everybody's belief system should be personal to them. I don't think that we should all be governed by everybody's beliefs. I think that we should, they should be personal to you, personal to your family. And you should teach people in your family and, and your kids, "Hey, this is what we believe. There are other people that may not believe this. You may go out in the world, you may experience things in your life. The only thing that I require for you to do in whatever it is that you believe in

• 24:18Speaker 03

  is to love everybody around you and treat them respectfully." That's it.

• 24:22Keke Palmer?

  And, and, and everybody, everybody responds differently. Like, I grew up in a church. I grew up with, my mom grew up Baptist. She became Catholic when she married my dad. My dad is a deacon. I remember I had a conversation. I said, "Dad, have you been seeing, like, what are your thoughts? You know, when you're hearing about I'm getting the Vanguard Award? Are you up to date? Do you know what's going on?" He said, "Yeah, I know what's going on." I said, "So, how do you feel about it?" He said, "What I'm supposed to feel about it? Everybody is everybody and everybody is loved." So, if you're not saying, I don't, I can't relate to that. I'm here for everybody's beliefs. But if your belief system is based on shaming, hurting, beating, killing, um, making anybody else suffer, then I think you gotta reexamine because God is love. So, just love everybody. If you don't want, if you don't want to do certain things or be a part of certain things,

• 25:06Keke Palmer?

  okay, cool, that don't mean you have to hate it, though.

• 25:08Speaker 03

  Right.

• 25:09Keke Palmer?

  That doesn't mean that.

• 25:10Speaker 03

  I think what, what tends to happen in our community as, as, definitely our community as black people. I think what tends to happen is people think that your attraction or your experience automatically defines your identity. Like it just automatically like, oh, well, I, well, like, I find women attractive all the time. I, I, I find women beautiful. Like, I told you when I said, girl, you is sickening, girl, yeah, you know, you know, like gorgeous. I find women attractive, but I'm not sexually attracted to them, but, but I don't know, maybe I might have an experience. I don't know. But yeah, I, at, at this point, I haven't. Well, I could, but does that make me straight all of a sudden? Or does it make me gay? Or does it make me, what?

• 25:55Speaker 03

  I think people have limited themselves to labels for so long that they have boxed themselves in and they have shut themselves out from, from two things. One, real happiness. Two, their true soulmate.

• 26:11Keke Palmer?

  Yes.

• 26:11Speaker 03

  There's a woman out there right now whose soulmate is another woman, but because, because she wants to live by societal norms, that she's, she's subjected herself down and she's, she's with a man that's not good for her. There's a man out there who possibly is in love with a trans woman or in love with another male, whatever it is. And they don't know how to act or move on that type of stuff because they don't want to be physically.

• 26:34Keke Palmer?

  I mean, I love what you're saying. I think, and I think that the queer community, you know, we speak about this a lot. Where it's even that, like, obviously you want the labels and the definitions because we're trying to, you know, people talk about the gay agenda, getting the gay agenda, whatever you're saying is to stop people from getting murdered, killed, slaughtered and harmed. Okay, we need to educate you. We need you to understand this. We need this to be a normalized thing so that y'all can stop killing motherfuckers. That's the only agenda that exists. Now, having said that, within that is then the whole thing of all of the stuff within the community where it's like, okay, I remember one of my homeboys, he's been gay all his life, but then he fell in love with a trans man. He was like, now, wait a minute, what does that mean for me?

• 27:15Keke Palmer?

  You know what I mean? How does that, you know, and I'm like, he, he was like, I loved him so much, but I just felt like I couldn't date him because that didn't match like that. And I'm like, but wait a minute, but that's, if that's what you felt, you don't have to now then be solely defined by what you ever do you think gay is. You know what I mean? As a man, you don't have to then only solely do that. And then there's the whole thing with like. I've never gone by non-binary, but all my life, I felt like people hated me because the qualities that I had was what is stereotypically for a man. And there's a big part of me that has always felt like, well, I just want you to like, don't call me nothing then. Because I don't want you to then, you know, judge me and say I'm not woman enough. Because I'm not enough feminine, or I'm not enough that, or I'm not enough this.

• 27:57Keke Palmer?

  And it's like, it's this big rejection to all of the labels. But then at the same time, you're trying to figure out how to define, to explain. And so it's like, it ends up becoming so stressful. Um, you know, then you have to prove, and then you have to, then you feel like you're not doing enough to prove. And then you want, you know, it's like, how do I find my community? How I feel safe in my community? I think those are a lot of the things that people are always trying to figure out and, and understand about themselves. When really, all we want to do is be free. You know, everybody just want to be themselves. They don't want to be harmed, they don't want to be hated, they want to be loved, they want to have a community they can go to. They don't want to be questioned when they decide to do something different, or go another way, or, you know what I mean? It's just, it's tough.

• 28:39Speaker 03

  Now, but then, then you also have to look at when, when you're in the community. Just like you said, your gay friend fell in love with a trans man. Now you're inside the community and the community's telling you, hey, well, you ain't supposed to do that because you're supposed to do this. And it's like, no, we, you mean to tell me I broke free of the matrix to get in the matrix again?

• 28:59Keke Palmer?

  Heavy on the matrix. I love that you brought that up. Because very much we're fighting against the symbolic and the real. The real is who we are and how we feel, and the symbolic are the systems that we can't escape here. And it's like, and that, I mean, how do you feel? You know, because you are a leader of the community and you're someone that helps to put words to this stuff. How, how do you move forward? You know what I mean? When it comes to, boom, all this freedom, the community is being more talked about, people are being more educated. But damn, now we done imprisoned ourselves in another label system.

• 29:33Speaker 03

  Well, again, advocacy is based off of visibility and presence. And you have to be present in, in all aspects of it. I'm in my community, I hear, I hold my community accountable. Like, girl, black bitch, don't come in here telling me that I can't like this, or I can't be this. We just broke free from this. Like, we just broke, broke the chains of, you know, heteronormative ideology. Now we outside of that. So now we're not gonna get into this thing now where you're gonna tell me or tell other people. I'm telling you, if you're gonna be free, be free all the way around. Respect everybody else's versions of, you know, individuality.

• 30:14Keke Palmer?

  Yeah.

• 30:14Speaker 03

  Freedom is, freedom is attached to each person's own individuality. Like your own individual perception or, or.

• 30:23Keke Palmer?

  Yes.

• 30:23Speaker 03

  Presence of being free.

• 30:25Keke Palmer?

  How do you maintain that while also feeling like you've created a community for that, right? Because I think that's why people feel like sometimes that they do have to choose a side or stay in a consistent way because they don't want to feel alienated within their community. How do you feel like you do both? Like, how do you be free but still be a part of something?

• 30:42Speaker 03

  Well, what I do is just like, just, okay, here's, here's, like, for example, I can give you an example, a candid example. I'm a black transgender woman. I stand 10 toes down on, I don't want a sexual reassignment surgery. I remember back in the day, like, they would tell us back in the day, like, well, in order for you to be a real transsexual, you gotta have a, you gotta go get, out there and get a pussy. You gotta go get, you gotta go have a sex change in order for you to be a real.

• 31:09Keke Palmer?

  I'm not laughing, it's the way you're doing it.

• 31:11Speaker 03

  Yeah, because that's what they used to do to us, you know? And there's so many people, and we start talking about people who, like, because this, this, you know, I know you're gonna pick this up.

• 31:21Keke Palmer?

  Yeah.

• 31:21Speaker 03

  We start talking about people who go through these processes now in their brain of like, oh, I want to detransition. Because people are, the people around them are pressured, well, girl, in order for you to be a real woman, you need to have a re, in order for you to be pretty, you got to have five or 10 surgeries. In order for you, your boobs got to sit up like this. In order for you to be real, so, and, and, and, and you're listening to this stuff all around you and you start, you lose yourself trying to become this thing that everybody is supposed to accept when acceptance starts within yourself first. I tell people from the door, hey, y'all, I'm TS Madison, I got titties at the top, dick at the bottom. Hi, y'all, I'm Bo Shantown. God blessed me at the bottom, honey, and he blessed the daughter to add it to the top. Hallelujah.

• 32:10Keke Palmer?

  Period. Period.

• 32:12Speaker 03

  Period. And so that's the way I lead in. I lead in with people like, and if this is something that you can't, you know, you can't rock with, we can't rock because I'm not gonna be listening to you tell me, well, girl, you're not a real, no, I'm a real transgender woman. And not only am I a real transgender woman, I'm a part of a divine feminine system, regardless if I have a male anatomy or not, sweetie. When you be screaming out, you're a man, you're a man. No, I was born male, but I'm not a man. That's a big difference though. I was born male, but I'm not a man, sweetie.

• 32:42Keke Palmer?

  Period.

• 32:43Speaker 03

  And no, I will not allow anyone to convince me of anything otherwise.

• 32:48Keke Palmer?

  Yeah, but the real tea is that's obviously very loved. Like, people can say whatever they want to say, but you're a beautiful woman, you're wanted, and you spoke about having experience with sex work in the past. I'm curious of how the conversation around sex work, it has changed. Like, I mean, now it's not even, I mean, there's still stigma, but people are way more open with it now than they were before. I'm curious of how you think, I mean, you already got something to say, so go.

• 33:15Speaker 03

  Girl, listen, let me tell you something. The pandemic showed people exactly what it's like to have to survive.

• 33:22Keke Palmer?

  Okay.

• 33:23Speaker 03

  The pandemic showed people exactly what it was like to have to survive. Girl, let me tell you something. I've seen so many people, OnlyFans, people's problems I didn't never, I never wanted to see.

• 33:35Keke Palmer?

  Okay, a lot of feet too.

• 33:37Speaker 03

  I could've, I could go all my way without you. I didn't need to see that, girl. Feet, cops, bars, booty holes. I'm like, girl.

• 33:47Keke Palmer?

  Okay.

• 33:48Speaker 03

  But this is the thing. When there was no income rolling in, they really understood the pressures of people who were really out there that were ostracized outside of a regular community. Now they gotta understand, maybe they probably didn't even think how we had to survive. Y'all threw us out there, y'all say, okay, y'all trained, and y'all, y'all, y'all things is outside of the community, out of the straight community, y'all gotta go over there. It's like, how are we gonna eat? How are we gonna work? How are we gonna survive? You don't want us, you don't want us at your jobs, you don't want us at your places. So how are we gonna work? So you turn to the oldest thing. Now the pandemic comes around. Girl, everybody got an OnlyFans. Everybody.

• 34:34Speaker 03

  All the straight people I ever seen, I'm like, girl, how you got, I don't wanna see that girl.

• 34:40Speaker 03

  I don't wanna see that.

• 34:41Keke Palmer?

  Nah, I don't wanna see that girl, okay? Whatever she had, you didn't want it.

• 34:45Speaker 03

  I ain't want it. And I'm talking about the men. Girl, I didn't wanna see that girl.

• 34:52Keke Palmer?

  Believe.

• 34:59Keke Palmer?

  Ooh, I've got some seriously exciting news to share with y'all. Audible has just dropped their Best of 2024 picks. And let me tell you, this list got some heavy hitters on it, y'all. Now, I don't know about you, but I'm always on the hunt for the freshest, most compelling titles out there on the market. And baby, Audible has really outdone themselves this year. From edge of your seat dystopian dramas to swoon-worthy romances, they've got it all. Take for instance, an almost unbelievably star-studded production of George Orwell's 1984. It's a true masterclass in audio storytelling that both honors the original and breeds new life into it. And if you're looking for a little heart-fluttering romance, you gotta check out Emily Henry's Funny Story. It's the perfect blend of humor and passion.

• 35:43Keke Palmer?

  But that's just the tip of the iceberg, my lovelies. Audible's Best of 2024 also features some of the year's most powerful men-mars, like Supreme Court Justice Katanji Brown Jackson's lovely one, as well as cutting-edge fiction from authors like Kristin Hannah and Percival Everett. This collection has something for everyone. So you definitely don't wanna miss out on the best Audible has to offer. And remember, there's more to imagine when you listen. Go to audible.com/bestoftheyear and discover the year's best waiting for you.

• 36:17Keke Palmer?

  You are probably one of the most viral people ever. I mean, you could do anything. Your shit is going viral every other day. Did you always wanna be famous? Did you always see yourself being an advocate or an activist? Like, how did this come to you?

• 36:32Speaker 03

  Well, Kiki, I always knew I was gonna be a star. I always knew it.

• 36:35Keke Palmer?

  I know, that's right.

• 36:35Speaker 03

  Like, I didn't know when, I didn't know how. I knew it. I always knew. I remember me sitting on the floor. I tell this story all the time. I was 14 years old and I was sitting on the floor. And I heard a voice when RuPaul was on TV. You better work. Turn to the left.

• 36:51Keke Palmer?

  Work it, girl.

• 36:51Speaker 03

  Turn to the right.

• 36:53Keke Palmer?

  Do your thing.

• 36:55Speaker 03

  Start that.

• 36:58Keke Palmer?

  RuPaul.

• 36:59Speaker 03

  So I'm sitting there and a voice spoke to me and said, that's gonna be your friend. And y'all are gonna work together.

• 37:06Keke Palmer?

  Ah.

• 37:08Speaker 03

  Here I am, from season 12 all the way up here to season 17. I'm a judge on RuPaul's Drag Race. I'm a part of the, the community. I'm a part of this. And, and when I met RuPaul, RuPaul was like, TS Madison, I love your spirit. I love you. I love for you, who you are. And I'm like, this, I knew that we were gonna be in close proximity with each other since I was, since I was 14 years old. People have to know that when, when they hear something or they feel, Kiki, you knew you were gonna be a star as a kid. You knew this.

• 37:41Keke Palmer?

  I did, actually.

• 37:43Speaker 03

  You knew?

• 37:44Keke Palmer?

  Yeah, I actually did.

• 37:45Speaker 03

  You looked at that TV, you, you looked at the TV, you looked at whatever, and you said, they not doing nothing I can't do.

• 37:50Keke Palmer?

  I watched She and Tamara. I watched Sister Sister and I said, I wanna be in there. I wanna be in there. I feel like I got something to say. I felt like I was always walking in my own movie. I don't know what that, what that was, but I always just felt that was for me.

• 38:02Speaker 03

  And I knew that, that me, I was gonna, now I didn't know that I, come on now, come on, you may, I may need to, I may need to tag you in. I didn't know that I was gonna have to go through, you know, like a puzzle to get in there. But when I got in there and, and it happened, it just, I, I just made it work for me. I don't wanna go viral all the time. But it happens because I'm vocal, I'm, I'm raw, I'm unfiltered, I'm uncut. And you know, wait a minute, I, I am cut, but I'm wrong.

• 38:40Speaker 03

  But.

• 38:41Keke Palmer?

  You give me too much fucking life.

• 38:42Speaker 03

  I just, I didn't, you know, I don't know.

• 38:46Keke Palmer?

  You just didn't know. I feel the same way that you feel because a lot of times people look at me and obviously we both, both of us has made it into a corporate space, a very commercial space. But a lot of times I wasn't what I, what I felt or what people thought I should be. You know, I mean, I'm a black girl, dark skin. You know, I got a, I got a, uh, accent to me and the gaggis. You know, I never necessarily thought that people saw me in some of the spaces that I'm in, but I was gonna be me regardless. And the funny thing, which I think is about when you're talking about it's good to see yourself or for representation to be there in all of its truth and authenticity, because it lets people know that even if there are walls up against you,

• 39:29Keke Palmer?

  even if there is a way that society tells you things should work, you can break through. Because what God has for you is always going to be, it's always gonna be for you. It's so true, and so I love what you're saying, because it's like, yeah, maybe you didn't see it, you felt it, you didn't know how it was gonna happen, but like, you showed up as you, and it was more than enough.

• 39:49Speaker 03

  And I'm, and in the words of Tisha Campbell, I'm still here.

• 40:01Keke Palmer?

  Why does she eat that?

• 40:03Speaker 03

  Let me tell you something, I have been, I have honestly been blessed with being, coming from where I'm from, with the background that I have. I have, um, Tisha Campbell's my friend. I've met Tashina Arnold. You know, you know, I love you. I've met you. You're my friend.

• 40:19Keke Palmer?

  I love you too.

• 40:20Speaker 03

  Lee Daniels, Nicki Minaj, Beyonce.

• 40:25Keke Palmer?

  But Tia, there's something about you, there's something about you, your energy, who you are, when someone's around you, even when I'm talking to you right now, that my heart feels so pulled open. Like, I just feel like I could say anything. What have, what has been your life like that has allowed you to be this kind of person that can extend such a safe space to others? Because I feel it. You know what I'm saying? Like, what is that?

• 40:51Speaker 03

  I think it's because, in a literal sense, I show up naked. And I want you to be the same. Hey, let's, I don't come clothed, I don't come hiding anything, I don't come with a veil or cloth. I show up naked. So this is like, oh, bitch, you're naked. Let me take my clothes off too and get comfortable, girl. And I think that that's the way it is with everybody. Like, that's the way, when I walk in the room, yes, I have on clothes, but I'm showing up to you naked. I've told you, hey, I've been this, I've done that, this has happened to me.

• 41:22Keke Palmer?

  But that's the thing right there, because your life has not been easy. I mean, you wrote your autobiography, A Light Through the Shade, in 2015. And, I mean, what, this, this is what I want to get to is, because I think a lot of times, people, we're all different, but a lot of times when we, when we feel like our difference is the biggest difference in the room, we attach that to what we've gone through. Well, if this didn't happen to me, I wouldn't be this. If I wasn't such, such, then I wouldn't have these feelings. If I wouldn't, but the truth is, you are who you are, period. What was it for you, and that was big for me, like, I was a kid when I experienced this. I'll talk about it in my book, I Don't Belong to You. You know, I was essentially violated. And for a long time, I thought, how did that affect me? You know, is this why I'm this way? Is this why I'm that? Is this why I think this, blah, blah, blah?

• 42:04Keke Palmer?

  And then I got to the point where I said, I'm me, regardless. I cannot attribute anything that makes me feel different, or, or, I can't say that that's what's wrong with me, when actually, that's what made me who I am. Let me love me, let me accept me, because that's who I am. This is not a blame, this is not a scar. This is what has made me who I am, so let me love that. And I see that in you. How did you, what was that that allowed you to see those things that someone could say, oh, well, that's trauma, and you need to change that, and you need to fix that? Where you said, no, no, no, I'm gonna love that and be who I've become.

• 42:39Speaker 03

  Well, I, because every, everything that happens to you, happens to you to shape and mold you, and to build the person that you are, and who you, who, because your life is already pre-planned on who you, who, exactly who you are. All the scars and stuff that you receive are, are, are reminders of the things that you went through, so that you don't go through them again. And also, so that you can tell, you can help somebody else not to go through those things. For me, right now, I'm so glad that you said that. It, it opened up a window in my thoughts, even in this exact moment, the way that I perceived love and, and relationships. I've always felt that I was, because I was a former sex worker,

• 43:23Speaker 03

  that now that I'm not in that life anymore, that I was being, I was gonna be punished. Because I slept with other people's husbands or boyfriends or this or the other. And then I, I, I just recently had to tell myself, Madison, the, the men that you've been involved with that were bad, were bad men regardless, or were awful men regardless. It had nothing to do with what you did because that was a path that you were given to change lives on the outside. So that, you know, so that people can see your life change. So don't blame that on this. It's the decision that you made with those men. You, you didn't, you didn't vet them properly. You didn't, this is the thing you didn't do.

• 44:03Keke Palmer?

  Yeah.

• 44:03Speaker 03

  So don't think that you're being punished for the life lessons that you had to learn in life. Don't think that you're being punished for that. Like, accept it, that happened. You blossomed into something else and just move on. And so I am in the, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm learning now. I have to tell you this honestly, Kiki, in this moment, I'm learning now to reconnect to real emotions, real feelings, real love. Because when I was a sex worker, I turned all of that stuff off.

• 44:37Keke Palmer?

  Wow.

• 44:37Speaker 03

  Love, emotion, feeling, I, I had to turn it off. I had no connection, no human connection. It was, this is all being.

• 44:46Keke Palmer?

  Was that straight from the beginning or was there a moment or was there an experience where you realized you had to cut that off? Like, for instance, I'll give you an example for me. You know, growing up being an entertainer, I was very successful very early. And my parents during that journey, I talk about this in my book, Master of Me, uh, that's coming out in November, that they kind of dampened me a lot of times. They didn't mean to, they were just afraid, they wanted to make sure I didn't get out of control. And it was, it felt really like almost emotionally abusive, I would say. Where I just felt like, damn, like, can I just be me and can I just live? I'm just trying to be myself. I'm not trying to be more, bigger than you. I'm just trying to be me. And I remember one particular moment where I literally went so deep inside myself. And I said, no one's ever gonna know the real me.

• 45:31Keke Palmer?

  I literally remember this moment where I went so deep in myself and I say, you know what? I'm just gonna perform who I am because I'm gonna always protect that person inside that's not allowed to come out right now. So was there a moment for you where you realized, okay, I gotta, I gotta protect me in this, in this situation?

• 45:53Speaker 03

  Uh, maybe the first time that I was able to do the sex work or whatever and then I was like, oh, I like this guy. And then, you know, it, it was like, well, who are your friends? And this is like, oh, wait a minute. So, you know, this is, okay, girl, well, we got, this is business. You know, like, like you're an object and everybody in here is an object. And, and he, this is, this is, this money separates all the feelings and the emotions. And so, once that happened to me a couple of times, I had to, I turned it off. Like it was, I was a complete off switch.

• 46:33Speaker 03

  And I have been disconnected from humans. Like, I, I've been disconnected from, it's definitely m- men disconnected from being, my managers, my assistants, right? It's, they're now experiencing the, the, the newer side of me. Because the old side of me was very guarded, was very, I don't trust you. You're a man, I don't trust you, period. You're only here for what you need, you're only here to use me, you know what I'm saying? Let's do this business, I don't fuck with you. I'll, oh, you know what I'm saying? You can only give me sex and that's it, and money.

• 47:17Speaker 03

  I don't know anything else. And so, now I'm operating from the space of, maybe you can't love me, maybe we can be for real friends. Maybe I can connect, communicate, maybe you do, maybe I do love you for real, you do love me for real. Maybe you are wanna protect me, maybe, you know, and you see me, you say, I'm, I'm slowly blossoming out because I'm still saying, maybe you do. Uh, okay, I'll give you a chance to do it.

• 47:43Keke Palmer?

  Yeah, I think what we're talking about is that feeling of being dehumanized. Like me with my fame so early on, it felt very dehumanizing, even to my family. And obviously doing sex work, that can be something that feels dehumanizing as well. Um, how do you get to the point that we're talking about right now? Where you are opening up, what was the process of that? How did you have to reframe that in your mind? You know what I mean? Like you said, you started with, hey, I'm not accountable for those man's, those guy's actions. I'm accountable for mine, but I'm not accountable for theirs. Like, what was the process of you starting that work?

• 48:16Speaker 03

  It's allowing somebody to tap me on my shoulder or, or hold me in my face and say, ma'am, I, I really truly love you. I'm here for you. I am here for you. We, I, and to allow that to, to come in, like somebody grabbing you, holding you, shaking you, say, I, I've, I fuck with you.

• 48:37Keke Palmer?

  Yeah.

• 48:37Speaker 03

  I'm not your enemy.

• 48:39Keke Palmer?

  It's tough.

• 48:40Speaker 03

  I'm not your enemy. I'm not your, I'm your friend. I love you. I'm here for you. I'm here, then I'm pouring out all I can on the table for you. I don't have any ill, any, any ill feelings or anything. You, I love you. So, and I, and I have to stand and be like, okay.

• 48:58Speaker 03

  All right. And even if they make a mistake, I have to say, all right, it's a human thing to make a mistake. It's a human thing to make a mistake. They, they're not against you, Madison. They're not against you, Madison. So you, it's a process. You know the process of returning back to humanity.

• 49:16Keke Palmer?

  I want to just quickly touch on, uh, Beyonce's track, Cozy, because I, obviously I love Beyonce, and that was an amazing moment. What the album represented. I mean, how did you, I, I love that also she tapped you because of who you are. You know what I'm saying? And I love that she, you know, Beyonce, she, she getting it right. If I'm gonna pay homage, let me make sure I point to the queens that have done it. And so, how did you feel being on that track? What was the experience like? You know, and the feedback?

• 49:41Speaker 03

  It was a mind blowing experience for me. Mind blowing on one end, the community loving it. And then on the other end, the community like, oh, her?

• 49:51Keke Palmer?

  Right.

• 49:52Speaker 03

  Girl, she ain't really like, like.

• 49:56Speaker 03

  Yeah, she ain't worthy of that. Oh, and then to minimize it, oh, well, you know, they, she only used her voice for like a few seconds. And, oh, girl. She, you know, all the minimal, like, trying to like really minimize it and, and act as if like that it was not like a statement piece for our culture, for our queer culture, for our black culture, for our divine feminine, for all of this, like, so you really, okay. And then it's, you know, minimizing it, it's, oh, girl, it's, ah, ah. And, you know, you're kicking, you know.

• 50:34Keke Palmer?

  Oh, yeah, because you, nobody's ever going to be happy. It's always like that with everything, especially when, you know, you're a marginalized people, like, it's gonna always be like, damn, I can't never get it right, you know, so I, I mean, yeah, it, it's crazy, you know, it's difficult.

• 50:50Speaker 03

  But I, I lean more into basking in the greatness of what happened and, and, and and when I sat back and I watched the world, I'll say this again for those that are listening. When I watched the world recite and stand in the proudness of them, of, of every hue of being black, every area of being powerful, every space of just being, every color, every hue of black.

• 51:23Keke Palmer?

  Yeah.

• 51:23Speaker 03

  Even when they, even the white people that stood up there said, bitch, I'm black.

• 51:28Keke Palmer?

  Okay.

• 51:29Speaker 03

  They understood the power in being powerful and who you are and comfortable in my skin.

• 51:38Keke Palmer?

  Yeah.

• 51:38Speaker 03

  Cozy with who I am.

• 51:40Keke Palmer?

  That's right.

• 51:41Speaker 03

  You know, and just standing in that, like, the, the, the message meant so much and to watch the world chant that all over the globe. I was, I'm, I was, I'm forever immortalized in that.

• 51:52Keke Palmer?

  Yes, and I think it was, it was just perfect, in my opinion. Obviously, not, everybody's not gonna be happy with everybody, you know, who, this person, that person, you know, but I did think it was amazing to have you on that song and you represented it perfectly well. You really did.

• 52:06Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 52:06Keke Palmer?

  Um, this conversation has been more than amazing. It's everything that I thought it would be, and I have to come to your show so we can really talk even more and get into even more things. Okay, this is part one, this is gonna be part two.

• 52:17Speaker 03

  We ain't gonna have no time, we gonna, babe, we gonna, we gonna be back in the after heart, I'm gonna be over here shaking my bottle saying.

• 52:24Keke Palmer?

  Get that sugar out of here.

• 52:25Speaker 03

  I'll be doing all my dumb stuff that I do, girl. And we gonna have a good time.

• 52:30Keke Palmer?

  I cannot wait. Now, on my show, before I let my guests go, I always play a little game. And I mean, I think it's only right that I play the gag is with you. So basically, the gag is. So basically, I'll share a popular take on something and then you share your hot take. Sound good?

• 52:47Speaker 03

  Yeah, let's do it.

• 52:48Keke Palmer?

  Okay, so these aren't my opinions necessarily, but they're things people say. So here we go. Libras like balance, but the gag is?

• 52:57Speaker 03

  The gag is, we like balance, but baby, I'm into all the chaos that comes, baby. Baby, I'mma tell you something. You tip my scale over to the left, that calm, indecisive libra gonna be focused on your ass. Okay?

• 53:09Keke Palmer?

  Okay.

• 53:10Speaker 03

  And the gag is, the gag is, you not gonna be able to take the dark side of a libra.

• 53:15Keke Palmer?

  Now, that's very true. Every libra I know will close out the fucking show if they have to.

• 53:21Keke Palmer?

  Okay, RuPaul's politically incorrect, but the gag is?

• 53:26Speaker 03

  The gag is, that's why RuPaul loves me because I'm the outlet that RuPaul need. Because RuPaul is an older star.

• 53:35Keke Palmer?

  Okay.

• 53:35Speaker 03

  And she can't do the stuff. She can't do what I could do. She can't get on here and tell y'all to kiss my mother, you know, ass, you tired, ragged, dirty, foot shackled. She can't do that. But her daughter can and will. And will get on there and tell them if y'all ever think that y'all gonna fix y'all mouth to talk some kind of smack about my mama, I'm whooping y'all ass on live TV.

• 53:57Keke Palmer?

  Yeah. Oh, yes, honey. Drag is just a trend, but the gag is?

• 54:06Speaker 03

  The gag is, honey, we walk around every day up in drag, honey. You get up and you put your lipstick and your hair on, you put on your, and then men, you men definitely stay up in drag, honey, with y'all shoes and y'all watches and y'all fedoras and all the things that y'all put on, honey. So please get up off the drag queens when you a drag queen yourself.

• 54:26Keke Palmer?

  Honey, because them little braids with the beads on them and all them little ponytails.

• 54:31Speaker 03

  Well, when they set up with them beads and braids and shells and things, you know?

• 54:35Keke Palmer?

  With them little holes in the back. Anyway. Florida is trashy, but the gag is?

• 54:41Speaker 03

  The gag is I'm from Florida, so y'all ain't told no lie. Bitch, I could be as trashy as I wanna be. You ain't hear what Luther Campbell said, honey? And the gag is, I'm not from Florida. I'm from Dade County, cuz that ain't even in Florida. I mean, it's in Florida, but it's by way of Florida. But that's the gag, and that's the gag is.

• 54:59Keke Palmer?

  And this is the last one. Sex work is exploitative, but the gag is...

• 55:04Speaker 03

  The gag is, honey, everybody been paid to do something. Baby, let me tell you something. The money ain't for the sex, it's for the silence. The money ain't for the sex for you to leave.

• 55:16Keke Palmer?

  Okay.

• 55:17Speaker 03

  That's the gag.

• 55:19Keke Palmer?

  And that is most definitely the gag. TS, I love you down. Da-da-da-da-down. You are everything. You are so amazing, and I'm just so happy that I get to know you. Seriously.

• 55:30Speaker 03

  Thank you, queen. I love you. You know you my fa- Let me tell you, I don't hear- The gag is, honey, when you played that stud over there, child, you had my panties wet.

• 55:38Keke Palmer?

  Okay.

• 55:45Speaker 03

  I was like, girl, how should I got over here and I'm talking to this whole stud over here like this? What she did? How should I turn to this whole stud?

• 55:55Keke Palmer?

  Period, okay? And the gag is, that was me in true form.

• 56:01Speaker 03

  Get the scrap. Get the scrap.

• 56:12Keke Palmer?

  Okay.

• 56:17Keke Palmer?

  You are everything.

• 56:19Speaker 03

  I love you, Kiki, child.

• 56:20Keke Palmer?

  I love you.

• 56:20Speaker 03

  Listen, I know you gotta go do your thing. I love you, baby. I love you so much.

• 56:24Keke Palmer?

  I love you too. You're amazing.

• 56:25Speaker 03

  This was amazing. This was amazing. When you get to Atlanta, hit the girl.

• 56:29Keke Palmer?

  Oh, period. It's done.

• 56:31Speaker 03

  All right, baby.

• 56:31Keke Palmer?

  See you, boo.

• 56:32Speaker 03

  Bye, y'all.

• 56:43Keke Palmer?

  Enjoy Baby This is Keke Palmer on the Wondery app, wherever you get your podcasts, and now, on YouTube, where you can watch full episodes. Subscribe to the Wondery channel on YouTube and don't miss any episodes. You can listen to Baby This is Keke Palmer early and ad-free on Wondery Plus. Join Wondery Plus in the Wondery app or on Apple Podcasts.

• 57:07Keke Palmer?

  Baby This Is Keke Palmer is hosted and executive produced by me, Keke Palmer. Lucas Segal is our post-producer. Music supervisor is Scott Valesquez. Our original theme song was written and performed by me, Keke Palmer. For Team Kiki, my producer is Sharon Palmer. For Wondery, our managing producer is Olivia Fonte. Our producer is Tristan McNeil. Senior producers are Lizzie Bassett and Candice Manriquez-Britt. Our executive producers are Date Easton and Marshall Louie.