Oprah & Richard Rohr on Finding Hope in Uncertain Times

In this episode of The Oprah Podcast, Franciscan friar, spiritual teacher and New York Times bestselling author Richard Rohr shares revelations from his latest book, The Tears of Things: Prophetic Wisdom for an Age of Outrage. Drawing on decades of theological study, Oprah and Rohr explore the transformative power of embracing our tears as a path to healing and societal change. He weaves the wisdom of the Old Testament prophets into our current culture, revealing how their cries for justice and renewal offer an example on how to get to our own breakthroughs today. Throughout the episode, Rohr responds to questions from guests across the country who seek to embody his philosophy to show up better in their careers, relationships and everyday life. BUY THE BOOK! https://amzn.to/4yZvw61 ⁠https://open.spotify.com/show/5IeKpFBpzIT4l0I00DkZII hellofresh.com/oprahpodcast10fm Follow Oprah Winfrey on Social: https://www.instagram.com/oprahpodcast/ https://www.instagram.com/oprah/ https://www.facebook.com/oprahwinfrey/ Listen to the full podcast: https://open.spotify.com/show/0tEVrfNp92a7lbjDe6GMLI https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/the-oprah-podcast/id1782960381

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:01Speaker 00

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• 0:21Oprah Winfrey?

  Well, it is so nice to be with you all here on the Oprah Podcast. I thank you for joining me. I know many people are feeling a sense of unease right now. Maybe you are struggling with navigating so much disruption. I mean, it's hard to watch the news. I mean, I've pulled way back from the news. Me too. So, so much disruption going on in the world at work or within your own family. And one of my intentions for this platform is that it is a place for conversation that can uplift, bring some insight, perhaps even enhance your life and give you a fresher

• 1:05Oprah Winfrey?

  perspective or a new way to think about our collective human experience. That's why I'm still talking after all of these years. So, for a time, a time such as this, I was thinking to myself, who would be a great person to talk to about the unease so many of us are feeling right now, uncertainty, and for good reason? And then I see that one of the great spiritual teachers alive today has written a new book about exactly what was on my mind, and I know on a lot of yours. It is my pleasure to welcome once again, back to my home for the third time, Yes. Father Richard Rohr. And his current New York Times bestselling book is called The Tears of Things: Prophetic

• 1:50Oprah Winfrey?

  Wisdom for an Age of Outrage. Beautiful, The Tears of Things. I know many people feel that we are living in an age of outrage. It's everywhere. Father Richard Rohr was ordained into the priesthood in the Roman Catholic Church in 1970. He is a Franciscan friar, a world-renowned author, spiritual teacher, theologian, and mystic.

• 2:16Speaker 02

  I don't care what your religion is. Great love and great suffering change the soul, awaken the soul.

• 2:24Oprah Winfrey?

  Father Richard Rohr founded the Center for Action and Contemplation in New Mexico and has written 42 books, including the bestsellers Falling Upward and The Universal Christ.

• 2:42Oprah Winfrey?

  Forty-two books you've written.

• 2:44Speaker 02

  And I'm not really that smart.

• 2:48Speaker 02

  They just come.

• 2:49Oprah Winfrey?

  There are so many big ideas in The Tears of Things that we certainly are not going to have time to cover it all here. But what does the title, The Tears of Things, mean to you?

• 3:03Speaker 02

  You know, I was the last generation of priests that had to learn Latin. I was never very good at it. But the great Latin myth that we studied was Virgil's Aeneid. And in the Aeneid, he's a Roman. He goes to Carthage, which was their enemy. He's observing a huge fresco on the wall. And it's a whole field of dead soldiers.

• 3:32Oprah Winfrey?

  Yeah.

• 3:32Speaker 02

  And he uses a phrase that I'm told is by far the most quoted phrase in Latin literature. And it seems at first hearing so innocent. I'll quote the Latin, don't be impressed. Lacrima eram. The Spanish speakers will recognize lacrima is their word also for tears. But he's observing this, that everything seems to be crying. Everything has tears and everything deserves tears. It was his way of saying what you and I would now call the tragic sense of life.

• 4:17Speaker 02

  The tragic sense of life. That it can be ignored. And everybody's life sooner or later rushes into tragedy. Yeah. So I knew for most people, they won't have all the connotation. But thank you for liking it.

• 4:35Oprah Winfrey?

  I liked it. And I was asking you before we started this. Did the title come first? Or does the title come as you're processing?

• 4:45Speaker 02

  If I'd be honest.

• 4:46Oprah Winfrey?

  Yes.

• 4:47Speaker 02

  It was in my mind for years. I've gotta write a book called The Tears of Things.

• 4:54Oprah Winfrey?

  Yes.

• 4:55Speaker 02

  And it came in my, end of my life. Yeah, I do think it's my last book.

• 5:00Oprah Winfrey?

  You do?

• 5:01Speaker 02

  I do, yeah.

• 5:01Oprah Winfrey?

  And why do you think it's your last book?

• 5:03Speaker 02

  Well, first, my age.

• 5:07Speaker 02

  But in some ways, it sums up my thinking.

• 5:12Speaker 02

  My spiritual teaching.

• 5:15Speaker 02

  I wanna be honest about how most people have to suffer. The animals now are suffering, the planet is suffering. So it's spreading to every level. And this generic term, the tears of things, not just the tears of humans. Although they say we're the only ones who formally cry. As a Christian, of course, I knew Jesus' words. How happy are those who weep? We think, is he crazy? What's happy about that?

• 5:48Oprah Winfrey?

  Weeping, yes.

• 5:49Speaker 02

  Yeah, but I think it's a transformative movement inside the soul.

• 5:56Oprah Winfrey?

  You write this about tears. You say, "Felt reality is invariably wept reality." Oh, that's a beautiful line. "And wept reality is soon compassion and kindness. Decisive and harsh judgments slip away in the tracks of tears. And when we cry, we are revealing our truest, most loving self." So how do tears connect us to our truest self, do you think?

• 6:26Speaker 02

  Because they come unbidden, out of the unconscious. Most people just suddenly have to wipe away their tears. They're a little embarrassed by it. Because it isn't an object of the will or the intellect. It comes from somewhere else than intellect and will. Both positive tears of joy.

• 6:51Speaker 02

  And tears of sadness.

• 6:53Oprah Winfrey?

  Yeah, when they're spontaneous, it comes from a place you don't even know, yes.

• 6:56Speaker 02

  That's right.

• 6:56Oprah Winfrey?

  You can't even explain that.

• 6:58Speaker 02

  Yeah, you got it.

• 6:59Oprah Winfrey?

  And it's, and people wipe them away because it feels unnatural.

• 7:02Speaker 02

  A little, yeah.

• 7:03Oprah Winfrey?

  Yes.

• 7:04Speaker 02

  Particularly, you know, my men's work led me to this, particularly men.

• 7:08Oprah Winfrey?

  Yeah.

• 7:08Speaker 02

  You women are better at it.

• 7:09Oprah Winfrey?

  Oh, yeah, we are.

• 7:10Speaker 02

  Much better.

• 7:11Oprah Winfrey?

  Except I remember many years on The Oprah Show, I would, I had gotten to the point where I could feel people's stories, not just hear people's stories, but I was feeling, I was feeling people's stories. And my friend Gail called me up one day and she said, "You're crying too much. You have to stop this crying." I go, "I'm just, I'm just feeling, I'm feeling," she goes, "Well, you need to shut down some of those feelings because you're feeling too much." And here's the thing, I was so moved by this line, moved in that I thought, "Aha, this is so true. If we stay with our rage and resentment too long," and you all listening to me right now, take this in. "If we stay with our rage and resentment too long,

• 7:51Oprah Winfrey?

  we will righteously and unthinkingly pass on the hurt in ever-new directions. And we injure our own souls in ways we don't even recognize. This is killing our post-modern world." When I read that, I had a big aha because I went, "Wow, this is why we are where we are." Because there's so much rage and resentment that people have now taken on as their righteous judgment and have just passed on those hurt feelings.

• 8:26Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 8:27Oprah Winfrey?

  You know, we say that, that phrase all the time, "Hurt people, hurt people," but this sums it up, I think, more accurately.

• 8:32Speaker 02

  Well, it does. You know, I know it's an ugly and not common word, but biologists, medical teachers speak of the amygdala. And that's the part of your nervous system that gets hooked whenever someone is speaking to you angrily or fearfully. And I know it's an ugly phrase, but I think we have a whole country of hooked amygdalas.

• 9:01Oprah Winfrey?

  Mm-hmm. And why do you think there is so much rage and resentment?

• 9:07Speaker 02

  One of the most unfortunate results of what we call post-modernism.

• 9:13Speaker 02

  Postmodernism is basically saying, "Okay, we tried all of these philosophies and theologies and religions, but basically, none of them work." And that's called nihilism. Nihil is a Latin word. I'm not trying to impress you with my Latin, but it was forced on me. Nihil means nothing. And we live in a very nihilistic country. When heads of state can get away with telling demonstrable lies, obvious lies, and people don't just accept it, but applaud. Applaud. You're in a nihilistic culture.

• 9:56Speaker 02

  And once you've destroyed any appreciation for truth, once that's gone, it's all downhill. I mean, I don't mean to be pessimistic, but you can't walk around telling total lies and build a culture, or build a civilization, or build a healthy psyche, or build a healthy family. When truth is whatever, I want to be the truth. What takes over is not just the amygdala, but the ego.

• 10:28Oprah Winfrey?

  Mm-hmm. Well, that's what I think has happened, is that the ego has landed and is in full force right now.

• 10:35Speaker 02

  Full force.

• 10:36Oprah Winfrey?

  In every area that we can see. The ego is in full force.

• 10:40Speaker 02

  And we're not being political, except by effect. We're being just realistic and honest.

• 10:47Oprah Winfrey?

  Yes, yes, yes. You feel that people today need to win too much, you say. And I think you're so right. I love this line that you have. You say, "There is no one-way prophecy. No speaking without listening," you say. And he also says...

• 11:04Speaker 02

  You're reminding me of things I forgot I wrote.

• 11:06Oprah Winfrey?

  Yeah.

• 11:07Speaker 02

  Go ahead, go ahead.

• 11:08Oprah Winfrey?

  And you say, "The flow must go both ways, or it is not a divine flow."

• 11:16Oprah Winfrey?

  Is this what's creating so much of the turmoil that we're seeing, you think?

• 11:19Speaker 02

  I like your honing in on both ways.

• 11:22Oprah Winfrey?

  Yes.

• 11:23Speaker 02

  Once you're in the flow, it both flows in with some ease and out with some ease. If you're always putting out and never listening to other people or letting them influence you, that's not true prophecy.

• 11:40Oprah Winfrey?

  Yeah, it's not true prophecy.

• 11:41Speaker 02

  No. We've largely neglected the prophets. And that was what led me to write the book, that for 37 years out at our center in New Mexico, I taught the Jewish prophets. And each time I'd go through it, I'd say, "Why aren't more people teaching this?" The prophets have had very little effect on Judaism, and they're honest about that. As Jesus said, "You're gonna kill all the prophets, and you're gonna kill me." And his most quoted line about the prophets is this, "No prophet is honored in his own country." You're familiar with it.

• 12:20Oprah Winfrey?

  Yes, yes.

• 12:21Speaker 02

  Why?

• 12:22Oprah Winfrey?

  A prophet knows no honor in his own homeland, is how I learned it.

• 12:26Speaker 02

  Very good.

• 12:26Oprah Winfrey?

  Okay.

• 12:27Speaker 02

  Why? Because a prophet is always, first of all, critical of his own self, his own agenda, his own tribe, his own country. And we have a politic that seems to be incapable of self-criticism.

• 12:45Oprah Winfrey?

  So what do you think's gonna happen? If you have a...

• 12:49Speaker 02

  Who am I?

• 12:50Oprah Winfrey?

  You spoke earlier about the truth and about where the truth is annihilated. You... the culture and the country becomes destroyed. And you spoke about where we are right now. What do you think is actually going to happen to us?

• 13:04Speaker 02

  I can't play the prophet myself, but you can't go on a course this long without self-destructing. It's not gonna be an enemy from without. It's gonna be massive disillusionment from within. Exactly how that's gonna happen, I don't know. But we Americans who thought we were so great, and I don't need to tell you, but we were able to do that by denying how we treated the indigenous people, how we treated the black people, while cheering about our democracy.

• 13:39Speaker 02

  You know, I mean, democracy didn't even seriously begin till the 1960s. That's what happens when you have no healthy self-criticism.

• 13:50Oprah Winfrey?

  Yeah, you had no democracy before the Civil Rights Act.

• 13:52Speaker 02

  No.

• 13:53Oprah Winfrey?

  You had none.

• 13:53Speaker 02

  When you can't see your own shadow.

• 13:55Oprah Winfrey?

  You had none for all of its citizens of color. You certainly had none.

• 13:59Speaker 02

  You had, and see, people of color know that. We white guys are the last ones to know it. We really naively presumed everybody was free and everybody was in charge of their own destiny. We can't do that anymore.

• 14:17Oprah Winfrey?

  And for a lot of people, it doesn't matter if everybody isn't free, if they are. That's the problem we're having.

• 14:22Speaker 02

  Don't say it. It hurts too much.

• 14:24Oprah Winfrey?

  Yeah.

• 14:24Speaker 02

  It's too true.

• 14:25Oprah Winfrey?

  But you know it's true.

• 14:27Speaker 02

  Yeah, it's too true.

• 14:28Oprah Winfrey?

  It doesn't matter if everybody isn't free, as long as you feel that you are. That's what we're seeing.

• 14:33Speaker 02

  That's the triumph of the ego.

• 14:37Oprah Winfrey?

  I thank you so much for spending your very valuable time with us here on the Oprah Podcast. When we come back, Father Rohr shares his wisdom on how to show up for others with compassion.

• 14:48Speaker 03

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• 15:17Oprah Winfrey?

  Welcome back to the Oprah Podcast. I am so glad you're here. I am talking with Father Richard Rohr. He explains why embracing our tears is essential in order to feel more deeply and to see more clearly. You titled the introduction of this book, Good Trouble.

• 15:34Speaker 02

  Good Trouble. And you know who I got that from?

• 15:37Oprah Winfrey?

  Yes, from Congressman John Lewis. And you warn about group narcissism. Do you think that's where we are right now?

• 15:45Speaker 02

  In this country, definitely.

• 15:47Oprah Winfrey?

  That we are in a group narcissistic, collective narcissistic.

• 15:50Speaker 02

  And when you got to a later chapter like Amos.

• 15:54Oprah Winfrey?

  Yes.

• 15:54Speaker 02

  One of the great things I try to make clear in the book, and it isn't hard to prove at all. I'm just amazed more people haven't preceded me, is the prophets.

• 16:07Speaker 02

  Localize evil, not in individual bad apples, but in the collective culture. Structural sin, institutional injustice. That you're blind to it. Why? Because everybody's doing it. And I've all agreed it's wonderful. And this is key to understanding the prophets.

• 16:31Oprah Winfrey?

  Okay, so this group narcissism, how do we, how do we break free of it?

• 16:38Speaker 02

  Usually through grief.

• 16:40Oprah Winfrey?

  Yes.

• 16:41Speaker 02

  And eventually grief hits every life. But you have to taste it. You have to, we used to say, drink your tears.

• 16:50Oprah Winfrey?

  Yes.

• 16:51Speaker 02

  You have to learn its lesson. How can life be so sad? A lot of us experience it, the death of our parents, or the death of a child. It always has to be uncalled for, unworthy, unnamed. And then it haunts you for years to come. That undoes the ego. I always say there's two universal paths of transformation. Bigger than Christianity, bigger than any single religion, great love and great suffering. They have the capacity to change every human being. I don't care what your religion is.

• 17:35Speaker 02

  Great love and great suffering change the soul. Awaken the soul.

• 17:40Oprah Winfrey?

  Awakens the soul.

• 17:41Speaker 02

  Yeah. And if you never love anybody or anything, if you never care for anybody enough to weep for them, you'll pretty much stay how you were at 17.

• 17:55Oprah Winfrey?

  Yeah. And also, if you never have any suffering, or know any suffering, or empathize with anyone else's suffering.

• 18:03Speaker 02

  You named it.

• 18:04Oprah Winfrey?

  Yes.

• 18:05Speaker 02

  You named it.

• 18:05Oprah Winfrey?

  You've been critical of your own faith, Catholicism. How do you turn over, in your mind and in your heart, all the atrocities, along with all the good works done by the Catholic Church?

• 18:18Speaker 02

  Well, thank God.

• 18:21Speaker 02

  I was educated, first of all, in the lives of the saints and the good works of the church. It was admittedly one side of the story. It was later in my life, when things like the Inquisition and the pedophile scandal were revealed to us Catholics. So I got a good dose of the positive. Our philosophical tradition, our theological tradition, they held me fast. I think I use in the book, Oprah, correct me if it didn't stick with you, that my big three-level change is, you have to begin with order, then you have to have the courage

• 19:06Speaker 02

  to admit into your ordered universe that you were given in Mississippi. I was given in Kansas.

• 19:14Oprah Winfrey?

  Yeah.

• 19:14Speaker 02

  Both of us raised nice little conservative Christians. But that stabilizes the psyche.

• 19:22Oprah Winfrey?

  Yeah.

• 19:22Speaker 02

  There is meaning in the universe. There is order. But then what came along, for me, exactly at the right time in the 60s, was a huge dose of disorder. For us, it was the Civil Rights Movement, the anti-Vietnam Movement, which began to expose the shadow side, as Carl Jung calls it, the shadow side of everything. That's another way of saying the tears of things.

• 19:51Oprah Winfrey?

  The tears of things, yes.

• 19:52Speaker 02

  Everything, and I'm gonna say everything, has a shadow side. You have the courage to admit that if you've had a good dose of the first good side, order.

• 20:06Oprah Winfrey?

  Mm-hmm.

• 20:07Speaker 02

  Now, if you can put order together with disorder...

• 20:12Speaker 02

  Guess what you end up with? Reorder. That's enlightenment. Where you don't try to eliminate disorder anymore. You don't try to even, it's gonna be shocking to a Christian. You don't even try to eliminate sin. You're not surprised at it. It's a universal phenomenon. We hope we sin a little less, but when you see how poorly we've localized sin. Always in someone else.

• 20:42Oprah Winfrey?

  In somebody else.

• 20:42Speaker 02

  Another group. They're sinful.

• 20:45Oprah Winfrey?

  Accusatory and judgmental about other people. One of the things I appreciated, you said that now that you reached eighty-three, you've learned that you have to forgive almost everything.

• 20:57Speaker 02

  Almost everything. It's one big sweep, but not thinking of it as forgiving. It's just a patience with things.

• 21:09Oprah Winfrey?

  I don't call it forgiving. I call it, for me, well, I'm seventy-one.

• 21:13Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 21:13Oprah Winfrey?

  And for me, it's not forgiving as much as it is a letting go and allowing. Just allowing.

• 21:21Speaker 02

  Perfect.

• 21:21Oprah Winfrey?

  A letting go and allowing.

• 21:23Speaker 02

  Giving up our control needs.

• 21:26Oprah Winfrey?

  Yes. Giving up the hope that I have any control over any of it. And just letting people be whoever they are and accepting them exactly where they are.

• 21:33Speaker 02

  And thinking, I can't love it till it meets my definition.

• 21:37Oprah Winfrey?

  Correct.

• 21:37Speaker 02

  Of order and control.

• 21:39Oprah Winfrey?

  That's right.

• 21:39Speaker 02

  You'll never love anybody.

• 21:41Oprah Winfrey?

  That's right, unless you allow them to be.

• 21:43Speaker 02

  You got it.

• 21:44Oprah Winfrey?

  That's it.

• 21:45Speaker 02

  I love forgiving everything. Not consciously, it comes naturally now. I talked to you in one of my earlier talks about the two halves of life. I'm now, this isn't good mathematics, but I'm calling it the third half of life, which there can't be, but the third half of life is just, it's all okay. It's all okay. I can live with it.

• 22:11Oprah Winfrey?

  Yeah. Somebody was talking to me about yesterday, the way somebody was dressing or looking. I think it's all fine. It's all good.

• 22:19Speaker 02

  See, you're there at 71.

• 22:20Oprah Winfrey?

  Made it at 71.

• 22:21Speaker 02

  Took me to 83.

• 22:23Oprah Winfrey?

  Well, we have Richard Rohr here. I knew we'd have listeners who have questions for you around your new book, The Tears of Things.

• 22:31Speaker 02

  All right.

• 22:31Oprah Winfrey?

  Nick is zooming in with us from Utah. Hi. Nick, I hear you started, you started a TikTok channel in hopes of helping bridge the divide between the left and the right. Tell us about that.

• 22:44Speaker 04

  Yeah, no, thank you. And thank you both so much for having me on. I really appreciate it. As Oprah said, I started this TikTok channel called The Radical Centrist, hoping to bridge the divide, right? I just feel like it's gotten to a point where it's, it's, it's really scary. And as I've done this, I've had some success.

• 23:00Speaker 05

  Left and the right need each other. But without them, we lose the moral friction that makes democracy work. America doesn't need a red team or a blue team. It needs both.

• 23:08Speaker 04

  But the more success I have, the more hate I receive, right? The extremes really don't like.

• 23:14Speaker 02

  Is that right? Yeah.

• 23:15Oprah Winfrey?

  The more hate? Did you say more hate?

• 23:17Speaker 04

  The more hate, right? So the extremes really feel that I'm just enabling evil on the other side.

• 23:23Oprah Winfrey?

  Both sides feel that way?

• 23:24Speaker 04

  Both sides, yeah. I do think it's a vocal minority, but it's very, very vocal. And so sometimes it's, it's really hard to know because these are, in my opinion, they're, a lot of them are just really good people. But, and so, and so it's hard to know whether or not I'm doing the right thing in doing this, saying we should bridge the divide and see the humanity in the other side. So my question for you, Father Rohr, is what advice would you give those of us that are trying to bridge this divide, whether that's at home, whether it's on a TikTok channel, whether it's at work? And then how do we know if we are doing it in the right way? Cause that, we don't want to be doing it the wrong way, you know?

• 24:01Speaker 02

  Yeah. Let me start with this. I, I mean, you, you just set me up for an hour lecture, which I promised not to give you. But, uh, the opposite of faith is not doubt. The opposite of faith is certitude. And after the Enlightenment, 17th, 18th century, we, even we Christians, felt that our job was to be certain. No, our job is to be loving. That's different. Now, once you've localized evil.

• 24:35Speaker 02

  And you've, they are the evil country. They are the evil religion. If it's so bad now, they are the evil gender. You know, we do this to one another.

• 24:47Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 24:47Speaker 02

  Uh, you don't wanna be disallowed that localization. I like the way the world is situated. Good people are here, bad people are there. Don't make me change my mind. Do you see the love affair with certitude? It's, it's not loving God. I'm sorry. It's not love, certainly not loving your neighbor. It's not even loving yourself. It's loving your ideas about things. And we Catholics made that mistake too long. So we're very impatient with it. When, when I see other people repeating our heresy.

• 25:31Speaker 02

  It doesn't make for happy people.

• 25:33Speaker 04

  Sure.

• 25:33Speaker 02

  Or, or content people. Or alive people. I don't think.

• 25:41Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 25:41Speaker 02

  Am I answering your question at all?

• 25:44Speaker 04

  I think so, yeah. No, I, so then, i- if I'm applying that to myself, I have a pretty strong belief that there are good people on both sides. I know Republicans that I love and I know Democrats that I love. You know, if we're speaking specifically to America. How do I avoid that sin of certainty? If you wanna call it that? And yet, how do I know if I'm doing the right thing? Right? Those seem to be at odds with each other.

• 26:09Oprah Winfrey?

  What's at odds? I'm trying to understand what's at odds, Nick.

• 26:12Speaker 02

  Good.

• 26:13Speaker 04

  So the, the, the idea, so, so I need certainty that I'm doing the right thing. Right? So if I'm gonna keep on reaching out to the other side, or both sides and saying, hey, we, we need to be kind to each other. It takes a certain level of conviction and certainty to do that. So is

• 26:31Speaker 02

  That's true.

• 26:31Speaker 04

  For him to have that certainty?

• 26:33Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 26:34Oprah Winfrey?

  Yeah. Is it okay for him to have that certitude? That the right thing to do is to try to get both sides to, you know, I, I think the key is in humanizing both sides.

• 26:46Speaker 02

  That's good.

• 26:47Oprah Winfrey?

  Is in humanizing both sides. When I can see your humanity, when I can see that you feel the same sadness and the same sorrow for, for, for the same things that I feel sadness for. You want the same accomplishments, to experience the same joys with your children. There's a commonality that we all have in the human experience. So my, my way through these podcasts and through everything else I've done, um, that also gets lots of criticism, is to actually humanize and to see the other person and the other side as, as, as, as myself, as my equal, as, as, as a human. And I think you know you're doing the right thing

• 27:32Oprah Winfrey?

  if the right thing is coming from a genuine, pure space that is an extension of the love you have for humanity. So you're not doing it because you're trying to get TikTok followers. You're not doing it, if you're doing it in any way, because this has been my experience. I check my ego for all things.

• 27:55Speaker 04

  Right.

• 27:56Oprah Winfrey?

  I don't do one damn thing, if I can help it, that I'm acting out of my ego because I know that's going to come back to me in an egotistic or a way that is going to be harmful to me. So I think the part of the answer that you're looking for is to search within yourself for the pure intention and reason why you're doing it. I admire your courage and your bravery because, I mean, I just have, you know, left a lot of social stuff alone and come off social media because the, the backlash or the hatred and the vitriol is so, is more than I can stand. I, I can't bear it. It's why we don't have comments on this YouTube channel because you just be fighting all of the negative stuff all the time.

• 28:39Oprah Winfrey?

  The crazy stuff, the conspiracy theories, the, you know, all the, all, all that stuff. So I admire you for doing it, but if you're doing it for the right reasons, then it is the right thing to do because the world needs people like you. Especially right now. So what is your purest, purest intention in doing it?

• 29:01Speaker 04

  I mean, it's got to, I think it has to be love. It does.

• 29:04Oprah Winfrey?

  Okay, expand more on that for us. Why does it have to be love? Why, why?

• 29:10Speaker 04

  Because anything else is, I, I, I can't find a, a purer force, right? I mean, anger makes me make a lot of mistakes.

• 29:20Oprah Winfrey?

  Correct.

• 29:20Speaker 04

  Love is a lot more humble. I can admit when I'm and then, I don't know. I, I mean, I always go back to that, that quote from Martin Luther King that was love. Hate cannot throw out hate. Only love can do that.

• 29:33Oprah Winfrey?

  Yeah.

• 29:34Speaker 04

  Right? I, I want to be that, but it is hard to say, stay in that space. It's really, really difficult. Um, and so I've struggled.

• 29:41Oprah Winfrey?

  Martin Luther King didn't have TikTok. Right? He didn't have TikTok. He had all the other haters trying to bomb his house and kill him and his family. But he did, but he didn't have, he didn't have the ongoing visceral reaction every day from people coming at you with their meanness and their, you know, intention to take you down.

• 30:02Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 30:03Speaker 02

  Let me throw this into the mix. It doesn't cover every base, but you first have to succeed at dualistic clarity. Like it was this same president who said it was in Charlottesville. Well, there are good people on both sides. That sounds like fuzzy, soft thinking, so I don't have to take a stand. First have to say, no, this is objectively good and this is objectively bad. Then you get to what the eastern religions would call non-duality. First dualistic, Jesus himself, God and Mammon and so forth. He's very dualistic about the big issues.

• 30:48Speaker 02

  But then, when it comes to practical, everyday living, you said it a minute ago. The response to both of them, the one you like and the one you don't like is love.

• 31:02Speaker 02

  That's the dance that I think an authentic believer has to do, has to not be naive about evil and evil's capacity to hurt people. Because otherwise, we're going to get in real trouble saying, "Oh, there's good people on both sides." Well, yes, but a lot of them are doing some bad stuff that must be named. Evil must be named. And that was the genius of the prophets. They critiqued Israel first. They critiqued themselves first. And then they said, but, and they learned this through tears.

• 31:45Speaker 02

  That's my thesis in the whole book. Through sadness, they moved from anger to sadness. That movement from anger to sadness to compassion is the transformative movement of the prophets.

• 32:04Oprah Winfrey?

  I'm going to send you an autographed signed copy of Tears of Things from Father Rohr. And I think if you read it and you actually look at many of the lessons from the prophets, because what you're establishing yourself to be, what you are journeying in this lifetime to be is someone who can moderate both sides. And I think taking lessons from people who've done it over the ages will be really beneficial to you. And I have to say, I admire your willingness to take it on.

• 32:42Speaker 02

  Me too.

• 32:43Oprah Winfrey?

  Yeah.

• 32:44Speaker 02

  Thank you, Nick.

• 32:45Oprah Winfrey?

  Thank you, Nick. All right. We're going to autograph a book to Nick and get it to you.

• 32:50Speaker 02

  All right.

• 32:51Oprah Winfrey?

  Easy. Easy.

• 32:52Speaker 02

  Easy peasy.

• 32:53Oprah Winfrey?

  Thank you, Nick.

• 32:53Speaker 04

  Thank you.

• 32:54Oprah Winfrey?

  Dear listener, I just thank you for spending your time with us here on the Oprah Podcast. When we return, we're going to hear from Jason Wilson. He's the author of the book Cry Like a Man.

• 33:06Speaker 06

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• 33:36Oprah Winfrey?

  I am so glad you've joined me here on the Oprah Podcast. I'm here with Father Richard Rohr, a New York Times bestselling author and Franciscan friar. He shares decades of wisdom in his latest book, The Tears of Things. Bestselling author Jason Wilson is joining us. Hi, Jason. How you doing, Oprah? How you doing, Father Rohr?

• 33:57Speaker 02

  Fine, better now.

• 33:59Oprah Winfrey?

  Okay. He once went viral with his empowering message to a young boy when he assured him it's okay to cry. That thing went all over the world. Why are you crying?

• 34:12Oprah Winfrey?

  That's what this is about, son. It's okay to cry. We cry as men. Why are you crying, son?

• 34:21Oprah Winfrey?

  Tell me, why are you crying?

• 34:25Oprah Winfrey?

  I'm trying to test for reason, but why are you crying? Go ahead, son. Because what? I said it's okay to stop with my brother. And that's my man.

• 34:37Oprah Winfrey?

  But you did it, though.

• 34:39Oprah Winfrey?

  And Jason, you've also written a book called Cry Like a Man. So I know you're gonna love The Tears of Things. What was your question for Father Rohr? My question was... Well, before you ask that question, I want to ask, how did finally learning how to cry change your life? Well, my tears taught me that I'm human. You know, so often growing up in my community, especially as me and as Father Rohr had shared earlier, we're trained by misconstrued mantras, like, "Big boys don't cry. What doesn't kill you?"

• 35:09Speaker 04

  Can only make you stronger and no pain, no gain. And as a result of that, we repress our emotions. And then Oprah, when I discovered that tears not only contain ninety eight percent water, but also stress hormones that get excreted from our bodies when we cry. So my work with boys, Oprah, here it is, we're telling boys not to cry. And then we wonder why when they get to a certain age that they don't want, know how to express themselves. So for me, when I was able to, you know, share the misleading mantras and really understand that tears made me human. It finally allowed me to stop my trauma from time traveling. And then to grieve without embarrassment, without shame. I was able to finally love myself, my family and my friends without limits.

• 35:54Speaker 04

  And most importantly, escape emotional incarceration.

• 35:58Oprah Winfrey?

  I love that, escape emotional incarceration. And didn't it open up so many avenues? I mean, I was, I was just having a conversation recently with the gentleman who runs the Hoffman Institute, who was saying that he was raised to, as a young boy, not to cry. And that many years later, when his mother was dying and he was crying in the car about that, his father, who had taught him not to cry, said, can you teach me how to cry?

• 36:29Speaker 04

  Wow.

• 36:30Oprah Winfrey?

  Can you teach me how to cry? And he said he did. He was able to help his father, told his father that when he started feeling the emotion, instead of shutting down, just open up and go into that feeling and allow it to take over. And to know that it's only gonna last for ten or fifteen minutes, that it's not, you're not gonna be crying the rest of your life. And that his father, learning how to cry during the death of his wife that he'd been married to all those years, really changed the grieving process, but also opened up an aperture for joy. So I've shared that story with you to just ask that question. Did your learning to cry also open up the aperture for experiencing

• 37:14Oprah Winfrey?

  other emotions in your relationships?

• 37:16Speaker 04

  Oh, absolutely, Oprah. I often teach my boys and men that I work with that we tend to grab it. Toward the eight box of crayons versus the sixty-four box. And I compare those two emotions that we're both giving as men and women. But with Timothy as men, as Father Roy tell you, we go towards anger, frustration, and fear. But what about the other emotions? And so, being married twenty-six years now, I had to learn that when my wife is requesting violet, all I could give her was purple. When she wanted lime, I had to figure out a way to make green and yellow match the color. And I said, wait a minute, this is a major issue with communication. And I learned how to not only process my emotions, but become a verbal processor,

• 38:00Speaker 04

  expressing the true feeling behind the emotion, instead of always going to the surface emotion, which I call anger. And so, I was repressing all of this pain. And working with boys, I realized later on why the word thug was really popular. And I made an acronym because what I saw wasn't a gangster. I saw a traumatized human unable to grieve. And so, when I helped them process their pain and emotions, and gave them the freedom to feel, and showed them the power of tears, they were finally able to release and grieve and live better and fuller lives.

• 38:38Oprah Winfrey?

  Boy, that made my eyes water. Thug is a traumatized human unable to grieve.

• 38:48Oprah Winfrey?

  Wow, that reorders.

• 38:50Speaker 04

  Reorder.

• 38:51Oprah Winfrey?

  That reorders the meaning and definition of that word. Thank you for sharing that, Jason. What was your question? Did you have a question for Father Roy?

• 38:59Speaker 04

  Yeah, absolutely. I wanted to ask you, as someone who also works closely with men, helping them process their emotions and release trauma. You know, I'm curious because I read some of your work with men in retreats, and helping them open up. What practices and approaches have you, you know, found to be the most effective in helping men be transparent and emotionally open?

• 39:22Speaker 02

  The most universal one discovered by all of the world religions is some form of mindfulness that you see the games your mind plays. You have to observe it. It sounds so passive, but once you see it, you can't not see it. That you prefer the negative, or you prefer problem solving, or you prefer being antagonistic, scapegoating others. Once you recognize your patterns, you see they're everywhere. For years up at Ghost Ranch in New Mexico where I live, I gave these five-day events called "Men's Rites of Passage."

• 40:06Speaker 02

  And the turning point, I'm not exaggerating, for many men was on the third day, which we call "The Day of Grief." And I had learned this, but I'm not making this up. It sounds like a dramatic story, but I visited the Maasai in Africa. And the chief, who had read some of my stuff, he gave two warriors permission to walk me around the path that a young warrior had to walk to be initiated. And the most moving part was the caves of grief. And these two tough-looking guys with spears and shields,

• 40:51Speaker 02

  they got even soft-spoken as we approached these caves. And they said, "Here, Father, we had to learn how to cry." And I would explain to the group and say the turning phrase was when I would say, "Many of you thought your father was an angry man, and maybe he was. Many of you think you are an angry man, and maybe you are. But now, listen closely." They'd lead forward. This is by the third day, they were teachable.

• 41:32Speaker 02

  And I said, "Many of you are not angry, you're sad." And it just, you could see the jolt of recognition. Sadness hides as anger. But once you give permission, a man at least, women have permission already. But we have to give men permission. "You're not really an angry man, you're just deeply sad." The whole five-day event turned, in some ways, on that one remark. Because they wanted to just cover the source of their tears.

• 42:14Speaker 02

  And that led to this book, Tears of Things.

• 42:18Oprah Winfrey?

  I can see that resonated with you, Jason.

• 42:21Speaker 04

  Yeah, I have so many questions. My male program, I teach boys emotional stability training. It's called The Cave of Adullam. And so when I read about the caves of grief and your work with the Maasai warriors, it really hit me hard. And I got the name from David when he ran from King Saul to hide from him. Oh, yeah. Because he was trying to kill him. And the history tells us that 400 men came unto David, who was distressed, discontented, and in debt. And he became their captain. And what's interesting, when you tie this caves of grief in, I always ponder like, well, what happened in this cave? Because those same men came out as mighty men of valor. So they didn't need to train to fight because, for the war, am I right?

• 43:05Speaker 04

  They already were warriors. And so you're telling me that these men, they would have to, as a part of the rite of passage, they would have to learn how to cry in these caves?

• 43:14Speaker 02

  It felt like that's what they were saying. Now, I would have then had to ask, how do they do that? Because I know you can't program tears.

• 43:26Speaker 02

  Uh, we in the church tried to do it, but they didn't come from a deep place too often.

• 43:36Oprah Winfrey?

  Jason, I can see you all could have a conversation all day long.

• 43:39Speaker 02

  I need his number.

• 43:41Oprah Winfrey?

  I can see that that could go on. Thank you for joining us and thank you for writing your book.

• 43:47Speaker 02

  What a delight.

• 43:48Oprah Winfrey?

  Cry Like a Man. Well, you say in the book, "Human beings are really made of love and for love, and we still don't know it." "We are made of love, for love, and we still don't know it." Why do you think people still can't get it? I mean, I think we humans are missing the point, especially now, and when everybody is just, you know, attacking everybody else. I thought, wow.

• 44:15Speaker 02

  Most Christians, here's self-criticism, but I hope you don't hear it coming from a negative place. We substituted a reward/punishment scenario. Apocalyptic dualism, forgive the two big words, at the end of our lives. And it largely created fear of God, not love of God. I don't know if you got to the end of the book, the story of the angel walking through the streets of the world.

• 44:46Oprah Winfrey?

  Yes.

• 44:47Speaker 02

  Now I'll just finish it since I started it. I used to use this in a lot of major talks, and people said they never forgot it. The angel walking through the streets of the world has a pail, a water, and a torch of fire. And people, of course, ask, "What are you gonna do with that torch and that pail?" And the angel is supposed to say, "I'm here to burn down the mansions of heaven and to put out the fires of hell." Only then will we know who really loves God.

• 45:24Speaker 02

  We've got to get beyond this reward punishment scenario because it makes us think that our job is to decide who deserves the reward and who deserves the punishment. It makes Christians inherently judgmental. The first 2,000 years, society itself was too violent, as we see from our own

• 45:49Oprah Winfrey?

  Right.

• 45:50Speaker 02

  history of enslavement. To hear that, we just couldn't hear it. And feudalism couldn't hear it, and the war centuries couldn't hear it. But there's more and more people who can hear that. That as, as you both have been saying, only love wins. Only love changes people. That's obvious.

• 46:11Oprah Winfrey?

  Yeah. I don't know what it's going to take for us to wake up and see that.

• 46:15Speaker 02

  What's it gonna take?

• 46:15Oprah Winfrey?

  I don't know what it's gonna take.

• 46:16Speaker 02

  A reward punishment system will not change people. It makes them afraid of God and hate their neighbor with impunity. God wants me to hate those

• 46:28Oprah Winfrey?

  People.

• 46:29Speaker 02

  Whatever those

• 46:30Oprah Winfrey?

  Whatever their label is.

• 46:32Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 46:33Oprah Winfrey?

  When we return, we're going to hear from guests who were personally transformed by Father Richard Rohr's teachings. And he shares advice on how to increase joy in our everyday lives. Tomorrow morning is knocking. Stock your fridge now. How about a creamy mocha frappuccino drink? Or a sweet vanilla? Smooth caramel, maybe? Or a white chocolate mocha? Whichever you choose, delicious coffee awaits. Find Starbucks frappuccino drinks wherever you buy your groceries. Welcome back to the Oprah Podcast. I'm glad to be here with you all and glad you're here. This is my third time talking with spiritual teacher and mystic, Father Richard Rohr. This time, I want to ask him at 82, how does he define a well-lived life? Well, Suzy now joins us from Dallas, Texas.

• 47:17Oprah Winfrey?

  And you say that Father Rohr's teachings are what actually made you feel loved by God. That is big.

• 47:23Speaker 02

  Oh, I hope so.

• 47:24Oprah Winfrey?

  That's big. What's your question? First of all, tell us how his teachings help you feel loved by God?

• 47:31Speaker 04

  I've been following Father Richard for like over 10 years. I really sort of found myself brought to my knees by some things in my Life, both personally and professionally, that that kind of happened at that time. And I think intuitively, I knew that I needed God and I just I needed something greater than myself. And I just didn't know where to turn. I think I learned of you through Rob Bell. And, you know, I read several of your books and I have been getting your daily newsletter. And it just always resonates so deeply with me. I I mean, often your readings bring me to tears because it just touches me at a place that nothing else has.

• 48:09Speaker 02

  Says more about you than me, but thank you.

• 48:13Oprah Winfrey?

  Do you have a question, Suzy?

• 48:14Speaker 04

  I do. In the book you you quoted in the in the introduction, you said, my hope is that this small book might accelerate the pace of human and spiritual vulnerability by encouraging each of us to take a first daring step. And so I guess my question for you is, you know, what might that step be for those of us outside of organized religion? Who don't always feel like I have the words necessarily to to speak about faith outside of of religion? And and how can we help, you know, sort of push this forward?

• 48:45Speaker 02

  You have to meet a God of limitless love. It has to be limitless. It has to be infinite. But I'm told the human mind, just like it's hooked by the amygdala, it is positively hooked by unconditional love. You have to have at least had a taste of that. But I'm told the human mind can't imagine infinite things.

• 49:11Oprah Winfrey?

  Can't.

• 49:12Speaker 02

  So we portion love out. Who's worthy of it? Who's ready for it?

• 49:19Oprah Winfrey?

  Who deserves it?

• 49:20Speaker 02

  Who deserves it?

• 49:22Oprah Winfrey?

  Yeah.

• 49:22Speaker 02

  When you stop counting, you're living not in the kingdoms of this world. The kingdoms of this world are all about counting, measuring, weighing. The kingdom of God, as Jesus would call it, the whole game of mathematics falls apart. You you can't compute anymore. Now, if you're not willing to let that be done to your mind. To live in an infinite sea of mercy, where all counting is meaningless, meaningless. You'll never be a mystic. You'll never be a non-dual enjoyer. And I believe we have to resituate Christianity in joy, not threat.

• 50:06Speaker 02

  And that's why I told the story of the angel traveling the streets of the world. Lot of us grew up with threat. Threat does not get you there. But it's the way most of us, certainly I in the 40s and 50s, in Kansas where I grew up. I had very loving parents, but they did threaten us a lot.

• 50:28Oprah Winfrey?

  Suzy, thank you for that. Thank you for your question and thank you for being

• 50:32Speaker 02

  Thank you.

• 50:32Oprah Winfrey?

  A follower and a reader and being inspired by Father Rohr. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you both. Thanks for joining us today.

• 50:39Speaker 02

  Thank you.

• 50:40Oprah Winfrey?

  Next, we have Lauren, founder of We Grow L.A., a nonprofit in Los Angeles that builds spaces of access, of hope and belonging. Lauren, what's your question for Father Rohr today?

• 50:51Speaker 03

  Hi.

• 50:52Oprah Winfrey?

  You look so gorgeous today.

• 50:53Speaker 03

  Oh, thank you. I'm so happy to be here. I'm learning so much, soaking it all in. My question is, as a faith-based community leader in today's society, how do I make sure that I'm a listening ear for prophetic voices in a way that really creates a culture that surrounds truth-seeking, honesty, prophetic messages, even if it is not consistent with what my original plans are for the organization?

• 51:22Speaker 02

  What you have to develop in yourself and in your group is a capacity for positive self-criticism. And once you learn how to positively critique your own games, your own shadow, remember the shadow is not evil. We learn this from, well, Jesus talked about the splinter in other people's eyes and the log in your own. He was teaching us the same thing. But if you don't do shadow work, you end up unself-critical. And why would you listen to an unself-critical person? Because they'll never see their filters,

• 52:07Speaker 02

  their agendas, their obsessions. That's certainly much of the first.

• 52:14Speaker 02

  I'm gonna say forty-five, fifty years of life. Learning just how to do that without shaming the self, without hating the self. Just recognizing, "Well, Richard, you've got your own faults too. You've got your own blind spots."

• 52:34Oprah Winfrey?

  And this is what you need to work on for yourself.

• 52:37Speaker 02

  That's right. Or your lens is not clear enough. You've got your Achilles' heel.

• 52:45Oprah Winfrey?

  Looking at the moat in your own eye.

• 52:47Speaker 02

  There you go. It's, this hasn't been taught. You know, I assume maybe you're familiar with Saint Paul in the scriptures. He talks about the second most important of the charismatic gifts, of the gifts of the Spirit, is the gift of prophecy. And we haven't even allowed it, taught it. He speaks of schools of prophets where you have to be trained in how to positively self-critique. And if you're a politician, you're a preacher, priest, if they aren't capable of healthy self-criticism,

• 53:30Speaker 02

  I wouldn't follow them too far down the plank. Because they're gonna lead you to a not very enlightened place. They'll always have localized evil in another race, another religion, another gender, another neighborhood, another... Oh, we don't have time for that anymore. We really, we just don't.

• 53:59Oprah Winfrey?

  Did you get your question answered?

• 54:02Speaker 03

  I did, I did. It sounds, well, how I'm interpreting it is the first thing for me to do is, you know, remain in a self-evaluation state.

• 54:13Speaker 02

  That's a good word.

• 54:15Speaker 03

  Yeah, and then also before accepting, you know, messaging from others to make sure that it's identifiable, that they are also in that state as well.

• 54:26Oprah Winfrey?

  Yep, you got it. Thank you. Thank you, Lauren. Thank you for the question. Thank you so much. I love how your green matches the plants in the background. That's great. Perfect outfit.

• 54:38Speaker 02

  Thank you for your nice smile.

• 54:40Oprah Winfrey?

  Thank you. Have a good one. Thank you. Thank you. So I often end our conversations here with this question. I know for sure I need to ask you of all people. How do you define a well-lived life? Father Roar?

• 54:55Speaker 02

  You know, who used the word generative? Was that Eric Erickson? I'm not sure. It doesn't matter. But you're delighted when you're around generative people who generate other people, other movements, other things than their own. I was just at a conference in Boston for Champions of Love, a rather pretentious title. But God, was I energized after being with them for five days. They're all doing...

• 55:32Oprah Winfrey?

  They deserve the title, it sounds like.

• 55:34Speaker 02

  Yeah, they deserve the title. And they were just so positive, so loving, even though every one of them was addressing major social ills. Bryan Stevenson, the lynching museum in Montgomery.

• 55:52Oprah Winfrey?

  I've been there.

• 55:54Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 55:55Oprah Winfrey?

  I did the first story about it for 60 Minutes. It was great.

• 55:58Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 55:59Oprah Winfrey?

  Yes.

• 55:59Speaker 02

  Father Greg Boyle with the homeboy, working with the Hispanic street boys of Los Angeles. God, do we think like. But he's so generative with it. It's the biggest street boy, if I can use that phrase, organization in the world. And that's what he's generated.

• 56:27Oprah Winfrey?

  So you came away from this conference with all of these people who are generating, who are champions of love in the world.

• 56:32Speaker 02

  Champions of love.

• 56:34Oprah Winfrey?

  And you felt... Championed yourself, you felt inspired, opened up.

• 56:39Speaker 02

  I did.

• 56:40Oprah Winfrey?

  Elevated, yes.

• 56:41Speaker 02

  Loving people liberate you. You don't feel judged around them. You feel affirmed.

• 56:48Oprah Winfrey?

  So a well-lived life is a life of someone who can generate the kind of love that inspires other people to be more loving. That's what it sounds like you're saying.

• 56:57Speaker 02

  That's what it comes. And it sounds like a cliche, doesn't it? But it's true.

• 57:01Oprah Winfrey?

  But it's true. It's so true.

• 57:04Speaker 02

  It's so true.

• 57:05Oprah Winfrey?

  Always a joy to talk to you. Thank you, Father Richard Worr. His book is called The Tears of Things. Thank you to my guests, Nick and Jason, who could have still been talking to you, Suzie and Lauren for sharing your stories and your thoughtful questions. The Tears of Things is available wherever books are sold. It's a call of action for all of us to love more, to love more. Go well, everybody.

• 57:32Oprah Winfrey?

  Thank you.

• 57:33Speaker 02

  You're a delight.

• 57:34Oprah Winfrey?

  Thank you.

• 57:35Speaker 02

  Always.

• 57:35Oprah Winfrey?

  Thank you. You can subscribe to the Oprah Podcast on YouTube and follow us on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen. I'll see you next week. Thanks, everybody.