Army Captures Live Alien [You Won't Believe What Happens Next]

Our American Alchemist this week is James Fox. Investigator James Fox just surfaced the most intensely-detailed account yet of the Varginha UFO case, an event involving a crashed craft, multiple non-human three fingered and toed beings, military intervention (from Brazil and The United States), and firsthand medical witnesses who did surgery on an alien in a hospital in Varginha, Brazil. For the first time in the case’s history, James Fox gets a testimony from the head neurosurgeon of the hospital that did surgery on the being. He also interviews the examiner of the soldier that died from apprehending the being. Chris Ramsay will be doing a deep dive on this autopsy on Area52 in a couple of weeks. Sign Up With Our Sponsors Below For Exclusive Alchemy Deals! Shopify: Start your business for just $1/month at https://shopify.com/jesse. Sponsored by Shopify, the commerce platform behind millions of businesses and 10% of all U. S. e-commerce. -------------------------- Support Our Other Projects Below! Join The American Alchemy Magazine Here ➤ https://americanalchemymagazine.substack.com/ Grab Your American Alchemy Merch Here ➤ https://www.americanalchemymerch.com/ -------------------------- JOIN OUR WHOP (Early Drops/Ad Free) ➤ https://whop.com/jessemichels Patreon (Early Drops/Ad Free) ➤ https://www.patreon.com/c/JesseMichels Discord ➤https://discord.gg/crHc44m3kF Instagram ➤ https://www.instagram.com/jessemichelsofficial TikTok ➤ https://www.tiktok.com/@itsjessemichels X ➤ https://twitter.com/AlchemyAmerican Spotify ➤ https://tinyurl.com/jessemichelsspotify Clips Channel ➤ https://www.youtube.com/@JesseMichelsClips Apply For Jobs ➤ [email protected] Sponsor Inquiries ➤ [email protected] Media Inquiries ➤ [email protected] Timestamps: 00:16 Introduction 01:05 The 1996 Incident 08:41 The Crash Site 41:33 Encountering the Being 46:49 The Neurosurgeon's Testimony 53:54 Communication Through the Eyes 1:05:51 Military Whistleblowers and Witnesses 1:08:27 The Smugness of National Security 1:12:09 The Day of the Event 1:15:15 Witnesses and Testimonies 1:19:35 Investigating the Air Traffic Controller 1:23:48 UFOs and National Security 1:28:25 The Complexity of Disclosure 1:42:18 Meeting Philip J. Corso 1:58:34 Walking Among Us 2:09:16 The Importance of Truth 2:12:29 Edgar Mitchell's Revelations 2:13:05 The Wilson Davis Memo 2:18:03 Insights from Apollo Astronauts 2:19:36 The Complexity of the Moon Landing 2:30:45 Calls for Transparency 2:38:49 The Nature of Disclosure 2:58:42 Collaborating for Understanding 3:04:43 Upcoming Revelations in UFO Research Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

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• 1:00Speaker 05

  Muita gente acredita que trata-se de un extraterrestre.

• 1:03Speaker 06

  Esta extraña criatura fue capturada y después llevada para...

• 1:08Speaker 00

  I can't think of a crash retrieval case with live aliens better than Virginia. Every single bit of testimony from separate people from all over the area, all fits perfectly. It's like putting together a piece of puzzle, right?

• 1:22Jesse Michels?

  I think if this were a murder case, you'd have more than enough evidence.

• 1:27Speaker 00

  This one, right here. But it was a [BLEEP].

• 1:30Speaker 08

  The alien was alive in this bed right here.

• 1:33Speaker 00

  Knowing that you sat in the hospital room with a live, captured alien and had direct telepathic communication.

• 1:42Jesse Michels?

  You have the autopsy of this soldier who's died because he basically grabbed an alien being.

• 1:51Speaker 09

  It was like, um, it was like, me, it was like, something, or something.

• 1:57Speaker 00

  Every time I say something's impossible, therefore, you know, it can't be, therefore it isn't. I've been proven wrong.

• 2:06Jesse Michels?

  I'm here, round two, with James Fox, who I always say is my documentarian hero, and now a friend, and I just really, I really appreciate you coming here. Because we're talking about, I think, maybe the most interesting case, where you have a UFO, you have alien beings, and you have all of these witnesses in a town in Brazil, in Varginha, Brazil, as late as 1996. We're not talking about Roswell 70-plus years ago.

• 2:37Speaker 00

  Or Magenta.

• 2:38Jesse Michels?

  Or Magenta, you know, 90 years ago. And you've just done an amazing job in this movie of documenting all of the, literally the flight path of the UFO. You know, three beings coming out of the UFO, and them seeming sort of injured and afraid.

• 2:55Speaker 00

  Maybe more.

• 2:56Jesse Michels?

  And maybe more. And you show all of these witnesses coming from disparate places that have zero reason to lie, have not made a penny off of any of their testimony. And they're coming from this, you know, from Varginha, Brazil. They're not, you know, selling books at like a conference in the Southwest in the US, and like into the UFO lore. Like, they don't really have pre-existing notions of what these things even are.

• 3:22Speaker 00

  So hard to get those people on camera. People have no idea. They think like people are just lining up. I want to be famous. I want my notoriety to get on camera. Exactly the opposite. People took years, and in some cases, decades, to come forward. And, you know, this most recent revelation, which is, in my humble opinion, the most compelling firsthand eyewitness testimony in the history of the phenomenon.

• 3:51Jesse Michels?

  I agree. I fully agree with that.

• 3:53Speaker 00

  Right? And it's not just some random Joe. It's the guy that ran all the hospitals. Humanitas. Regional, like bone, bone, bone of hearts. There's, he mentions them in there. But in any case, he's a neurosurgeon. And he had health complications. He had a heart attack, then he got cancer. And he was like... staring at the ceiling of the ICU and he was thinking if I get through this, I'm, I can't take this to the grave.

• 4:24Jesse Michels?

  This is, it's literally the, I agree with you. It's the most amazing testimony I've ever heard from a person who was face to face with an alien being for what he describes as three to four minutes. She's just remarkable and it's clearly, you know, he's a concert pianist. You show him at the, in the end, he's playing piano.

• 4:43Speaker 00

  Oh my God.

• 4:44Jesse Michels?

  And, um, and he's a really well-respected neurosurgeon.

• 4:48Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 4:48Jesse Michels?

  And, um, it seems totally beyond reproach. And you see him, he's in the hospital and he's showing the bed that the alien was on.

• 4:57Speaker 00

  Crazy.

• 4:58Jesse Michels?

  It's crazy. It's crazy. And then he gets emotional, you take him to a cafe nearby.

• 5:03Speaker 00

  Get kicked out of the hospital.

• 5:04Jesse Michels?

  You get kicked out of the hospital.

• 5:06Speaker 00

  He's like, I think I might've just lost my job.

• 5:08Jesse Michels?

  So a lot of this might be, you know, a lot of detail for people to take in, especially if they're not familiar with, you know, kind of the, the, the background of exactly what happened, kind of high level.

• 5:17Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 5:18Jesse Michels?

  So, uh, we might be getting ahead of ourselves here. So, so, so what happened in January of 1996 in Virginia?

• 5:33Speaker 00

  Put me on that farm in January of 1996. What happened?

• 5:39Speaker 10

  So the object was shaped like a saw, a rubber shape like a school bus. It was the size of a school bus. So, and no noise at all. We kept watching it because there was smoke, a light smoke wrapped around it. But I even joked with her, uh, what is that? Is it a submarine? Because it was floating, you know? He kept watching it until it vanished this way. It was shaped like a cigar, you know, that a long like that, like a cigar.

• 6:09Speaker 11

  Roughly 20 miles as the crow flies from the couple's sighting, farmer Fabio Furtado encountered a similar object.

• 6:18Speaker 12

  From here I saw it, it passed right by and made that movement over there in front, you see, and I saw it all from right here. Look, then it performed that exact same movement right here and then it landed way back there. It was like a cigar just flying through the air.

• 6:31Speaker 10

  So, so, so, so.

• 6:37Speaker 00

  It was January 1996, probably the 13th, and there are a number of witnesses to a cylindrical shaped object, rather large, the size of a little bigger than a school bus. Okay? And it was like a metallic. Cigar shaped? Cigar shaped, yeah. There were no like wings or any visible means propulsion. It didn't really make any noise. And according to the witnesses, it had, and for the first time ever in this recent cut of Moment of Contact, new revelations of alien encounters, we actually have a map of all the various sightings of it, which really helped put things in perspective for me. You did a great job of that. Wow. I was like, oh, my God, he saw it here. This person saw it here. This is

• 7:19Speaker 00

  the town of Virginia. The crash was here. It was like, it all makes sense, you know? And so they see this object and it had a tear in the back of it, which is very puzzling. Like, hmm, how did that happen? Something came in contact with that object to tear it and have, they said it was like a white vapor. It wasn't like a smoke from a fire that you'd see. It was like a white vapor that was coming out the back and that it was clearly in distress. And I was like, well, how do you know it was in distress? They were like, it was struggling to stay in the air. But they said, had the animals or the farmers, the two farmers, had the animals not made a ruckus at 2 o'clock or 3 o'clock in the morning, they would have not even heard it or known it was there. It was absolutely

• 7:59Speaker 00

  silent. And they were expecting it to hit the ground, the two farmers. And then there was another gentleman, Fabio Furtada, at that farm. And he said that that it was make like it, like it was over his house and he was there with one other person at night. And he said that it was making a sound like it was kind of in trouble. And then it landed on his farm. It's the first time we got that testimony. And that's like over here. And then, you know, the object was seen here and here, and then it crashed right in the middle. And then there is a.

• 8:35Speaker 00

  Gentleman by the name of Carlos de Souza, and he was an ultralight pilot. And he was also a geography professor in Sao Paulo. And he was going up to go ultralight flying with his friends early in the morning on January 13th. And he sees, and he's a pilot himself, he sees this object, this cigar shaped object with a gash in the back, just like everyone else described, that was struggling to stay in the air. And he never once thought alien. He was like, that must be some sort of weird experimental craft. Maybe it's government or air force, whatever. It's, it's in trouble. It looks like it's going down. So it was really early in the morning. He turns off the freeway and he goes up to this place called the Myelini Farm. It was a dirt road. And he goes up there and he sees it struggling to stay in the air.

• 9:19Speaker 00

  And then it just goes boom and hits the ground. He's like, oh my God, the thing just crashed. They need help.

• 9:42Speaker 00

  So he went up to the actual impact site, which was like a debris field bigger than a football field, maybe two football fields with debris everywhere. Half of the craft was still intact. And then the other half was just gone, like just debris bits everywhere. Got out of the car and he's looking at it just, and again, never once did he think alien. That didn't even enter his, his consciousness, right? And um, he said he's looking at it and he's like these little bits everywhere. And he goes, the smell like it probably, he was like, it's rotten eggs and ammonia. He grabbed his shirt and kind of pulled his shirt over his mouth. My God, the smell is so dense.

• 10:21Speaker 13

  He immediately smelled ammonia. It was like rotten eggs, a very strong odor. I had to cover my nose with the shirt I was wearing.

• 10:31Speaker 00

  And there was a kind of a liquid that he described? Cause I was asking like an acid or some sort of liquid everywhere that causing the grass and stuff to burn? And um, He said it was acid, maybe an acid. Acid or something, yeah, like some kind of liquid. And um, because he was talking about the grass was kind of, was affected by it. And um, actually, if you, when we flew the drone over that exact alleged impact site, you can see it's different. The, the ground looks different in that zone than it does all around it. I mean, it really does. Yes. And um, He picked up one of the pieces and he said it was like a like aluminum, really light, like you couldn't feel it, very much like the Roswell people.

• 11:11Jesse Michels?

  It's always what you hear.

• 11:12Speaker 00

  Yeah. And he said that he could crumple it up really light, like you could barely feel it in your hands. And then when he released it, it regained its shape.

• 11:20Jesse Michels?

  It's the same thing as what Jesse Marcel said.

• 11:22Speaker 00

  That's what he said, yeah.

• 11:23Speaker 08

  It was weightless. He couldn't feel that he had anything in his hands.

• 11:27Speaker 00

  And then he goes, he goes, then all these military trucks started coming in from the military base, as from the opposite direction, which actually just a few months ago, we were there. And I took the drone way, way up in the sky and pointed it straight down. And you could see where the as a military base, the route that as it would come in from. And he came in from the freeway on the opposite side. And that's when he was, he was threatened at gunpoint. He didn't see anything. Get out of here. He was like, I was just trying to help, like, you know, what, what's the problem? You know, just trying to help. I'm not, you know? And that's when he said, things got really weird. And then he got into his car and he left. And he stopped at a gas station just a few miles down the road to have a coffee and just kind of gather himself.

• 12:11Speaker 00

  And that's when an unmarked vehicle showed up and they knew who he was, his name, his wife, his address, his daughter, like all, everything about him.

• 12:19Speaker 14

  Two men approached me dressed in black suits, all perfectly aligned, very tall individuals. They stood right next to me and asked me, are you Mr. Carlos de Souza, married to so and so, your daughter so and so? They described my entire life story right there. I turned to the man and asked, who, who are you? What do you want to know? How do you know all this?

• 12:43Speaker 14

  It was perfectly clear to me. Listen, you didn't see anything. You just shut your mouth and you leave. If anyone ever asks you anything at all, you didn't see anything.

• 12:55Speaker 14

  You don't know a thing or else things will get no se posse. It's really weird for you. All right. So just get out of here. I was at that moment completely startled.

• 13:12Speaker 14

  It was a black or a very dark blue opala, almost black, and without a license plate, they got in and drove away. They vanished.

• 13:22Jesse Michels?

  That's, that's crazy because it's a level of counter intel response.

• 13:29Speaker 00

  In ninety six.

• 13:31Jesse Michels?

  In nineteen ninety six, and they somehow know everything about your family, and it's right after you witnessed a crashed craft and you drive a few miles away.

• 13:43Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 13:44Jesse Michels?

  And they somehow are able to apprehend you there.

• 13:46Speaker 00

  Yep.

• 13:47Jesse Michels?

  Like.

• 13:47Speaker 00

  The car that stopped had no plates.

• 13:49Jesse Michels?

  Did they have an accent or was it?

• 13:52Speaker 00

  They were very tall. They had suits and they spoke Portuguese. And you know, sometimes there'll be one person speaking Portuguese and there'll be a couple of other people that'll just be silent in the background. And that's, that happened in the case of Louisa, the mother of the two girls that came into direct contact with the alleged alien. Um, and she's like, they, they were foreigners. Like, how do you know? Well, they didn't say anything, but they looked like foreigners and the money was foreign. It was like American dollars in a briefcase and, and he said that they were very intimidating. They said, you don't, you didn't see what you, you know, you didn't see that, you know, and if you ever talk about it, things are going to get very weird for you. Not that we're going to hunt you down and kill you. They're going to get very weird for you.

• 14:30Jesse Michels?

  Hmm.

• 14:31Speaker 00

  Which is kind of spooky. It's, you know what I mean?

• 14:33Jesse Michels?

  Do you think they were maybe like the proverbial men in black?

• 14:36Speaker 00

  Well, you know, it's so funny because I'd heard about these so-called men in black stuff dating back to the, to the nineties when I was investigating and I was like, I investigated the Phoenix Lights case and, and a lot of the witnesses hate when you say Phoenix Lights. So they're like, it wasn't fair. Much of lights. It was a massive craft, you know? I can see the compartments. It flew right over my.

• 14:56Jesse Michels?

  Yeah. The governor has now admitted his real, and Kurt Russell saw while he was flying his plane with his son.

• 15:03Speaker 00

  He said he could land his airplane on her.

• 15:04Jesse Michels?

  There you go. Yeah.

• 15:05Speaker 15

  So we're going into Phoenix and there's these bank of lights, six lights in the shape of a triangle going back right over the airport.

• 15:15Speaker 00

  So I was investigating that case and I was working with a woman who was the councilwoman Frances Emma Barwood. And I was interviewing her and of course I was going after the governor at the time. I wasn't getting any traction with that. And I was interviewing all the witnesses and, and there was one guy, a Vietnam vet. And he contacted Emma Francis Barwood, one of the few elected officials, councilwoman that, that was willing to, hey, all she said was, let's investigate what happened, what these people saw, like, let's just, you know, and she was lambasting in the press. Oh, my gosh, you can go see they were making fun of her. This guy reached out to her and I know this because I was investigating at the time. I was in touch with her and he said, hey, um, I understand you want to know more about

• 15:59Speaker 00

  this craft is I, I'm a Vietnam vet. I was on my roof that night trying to get a, a video on a tripod of hell bob comet because the hell bob was over the sky, you know? And, um, and I have a CB radio and I was listening to the truckers come up interstate 10 from Tucson and they were all describing this massive boomerang shaped craft. And I realized, shit, this thing's coming right my way. So he, he said, I, I was all set up with a tripod and a camera and I filmed it going right over the top of my house. That great footage, would you like to see it? She's like, yeah, I'd love to see it. So, uh, they make arrangements where he was going to drop it off at her office. I don't know if it was later that day or the very next morning or that night, two

• 16:41Speaker 00

  men roll up in an unmarked government vehicle and suits. And he's like, he goes, they were very intimidating looking at me and they were like in these dark suits. It was really hot. And, uh, the only thing they really asked me was, you know, they said they were from France, they, they're like, we're from Francis, Emma Barwood's office. We're here to pick up the video. And he was like, oh, I was going to drop it off, but I guess I don't have to. And he said, the only question they asked is, uh, did they make, did he make any copies? And he said, no, I didn't. And so they took the, they took the footage and left. And a couple of days go by, he doesn't hear from Emma, so he calls her up. He goes, hey, what did you think of the footage? She goes, what do you mean, what did I think of the footage? I didn't get the footage. He goes, well, you had two men from your office show up. She goes, I didn't send anybody around.

• 17:23Speaker 00

  So that was like the first time that I really heard about these so-called men in black. And that was in the nineties.

• 17:29Jesse Michels?

  Yeah, no, this is made fun of.

• 17:31Speaker 00

  Yeah, exactly.

• 17:33Jesse Michels?

  Exactly. But, but, but Richard Dolan, you great UFO researchers write about this phenomenon happening time and time and time and time again. You, you have another example, uh, which you cover in, uh, the phenomenon, or I think in the program, actually.

• 17:50Speaker 16

  Two witnesses were out hiking.

• 17:55Speaker 16

  They then saw a large diamond shaped craft hovering.

• 18:05Speaker 17

  It didn't move. It just hovered in the air without making any, any noise.

• 18:10Speaker 16

  The witnesses looked at this for a while and one of them had a camera.

• 18:15Speaker 17

  So when the jet came along, they sort of stuck the camera out from behind the bush and snapped six frames.

• 18:22Speaker 00

  The two witnesses that took the photographs took like six prints, five prints, like color, points of reference, broad daylight, two witnesses, military jet in the background, like it doesn't get much better than that. And he was like, these men in black rolled up, they were having their cigarette break.

• 18:39Speaker 08

  They were fucking spooks. They were men in black. And they stood outside in the passion rain, speaking to them.

• 18:48Speaker 00

  So any case, when I got to the Fargini case with the men in black, I was like, oh my God, these guys again. I'd heard, I could give you, I could go, go on for five hours. It doesn't matter. My point is, I went all in on that. And I did cover a little bit with the 1966 Westall UFO incident, the landing, when I got a hold of Mr. Greenwood, the, the science professor, that's a whole story about how I got him to go on camera. I remember when I arrived in Australia, all the seasoned UFO researchers were like, don't even bother, you know, this guy was never come forward. We've been trying for 50 years. I said, just get me in the room with him. It is a great story behind how that whole thing goes. But he talks about these guys, the intimidation, they showed up at his door, they're in suits,

• 19:32Speaker 00

  like, you know what I mean? Some unmarked government agency threatening him, like putting the fear of God in this guy. And yeah, so.

• 19:42Jesse Michels?

  If you talk to Richard Dolan about who the men in black are, he seems to think.

• 19:46Speaker 00

  OSI?

• 19:47Jesse Michels?

  No, well, this is really trippy. He thinks it's like counter intel on behalf of the NHI or the aliens or the ETs. Because if you, if you think about it, the level of rapid response, the ability to show up and like, you know, kind of know everything about like. It's either like in 1996, we had way more of like, like, like, think about 1996, the, the consumer internet wasn't really a thing.

• 20:15Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 20:16Jesse Michels?

  You know, who knows how much information the government, like, maybe the US government had a lot of information on its citizens, but did they have information on a citizen of Virginia, on a, you know, this guy who's a pilot in Virginia and a, and a geography teacher in Sao Paulo? Probably not, you know? And then the ability to show up a couple hours after he had seen this crashed craft? So De Souza, did he see any beings?

• 20:43Speaker 00

  No.

• 20:44Jesse Michels?

  With the cra- he just saw the, the crash?

• 20:45Speaker 00

  Just saw the crash. And I asked him, I said, it was the, was the, the section that was still intact? Was it big enough to have people? Oh, yes, he said, no question. Now.

• 20:55Jesse Michels?

  Did he see inside it?

• 20:57Speaker 00

  Not that I'm aware of.

• 20:58Jesse Michels?

  Okay.

• 20:59Speaker 00

  Yeah, I didn't ask him that question. That's a good question.

• 21:01Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 21:01Speaker 00

  I think if he had seen inside, he would have told me. But he said there was a sec- and it wasn't there for very long, but just a few minutes. But the section was intact.

• 21:09Jesse Michels?

  Hmm.

• 21:09Speaker 00

  That was still there and it was about half.

• 21:11Jesse Michels?

  Hmm.

• 21:12Speaker 00

  Half the size of what it was when it hit, when it impacted.

• 21:15Speaker 11

  Seven days after Sosa witnessed the crash, Hubert Ladera leaves this gym when he and several friends see two military trucks driving into town. They follow them through the neighborhood and come upon a military blockade.

• 21:31Speaker 18

  We tried to force our way through and they raised their rifles, their weapons.

• 21:37Speaker 19

  Did you get, did you all feel scared at that moment on that day?

• 21:42Speaker 18

  The only time I felt fear was when the so- in, uh, when the soldier raised his rifle, because until then I had never seen such a large weapon and no one had ever pointed a gun in my direction, you know?

• 21:55Jesse Michels?

  And you have some reason to believe that. Two or three beings came out and that and one of the beings and you have you have the you have the mayor on record.

• 22:05Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 22:05Jesse Michels?

  Testifying to this, the mayor's nephew's girlfriend.

• 22:10Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 22:10Jesse Michels?

  Was one of the three girls.

• 22:11Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 22:11Jesse Michels?

  That saw one of the beings.

• 22:13Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 22:13Speaker 19

  The news has just arrived at this very moment. Dageras have spotted some kind of creature up there, close to the Maracanã Gymnasium.

• 22:23Speaker 11

  Just around the corner from the military blockade, three young girls had an encounter of the third kind.

• 22:31Speaker 20

  The sisters Valkyria, who is 14 years old, and Lilian, who is 16 years old, are also very frightened. It's the first time they've come back to this very place since Saturday, January 20th.

• 22:42Speaker 09

  That strange round thing, wow, it was incredibly strange. And it had these things like horns right on its head, its skin was brown, and it looked like it had some some kind of oil. Oil. All over its body. It had a huge foot and its eyes were super wide and red.

• 23:05Jesse Michels?

  And then I think you have some reason to believe that one of the beings made its way over the hill and possibly towards the water and then was captured with a net. Is that right?

• 23:14Speaker 00

  Yeah, that was with the fire department earlier. That's why I keep I keep thinking because that one was alive because we have testimony of someone that was in the area when it was it was in a net. They captured it with a net like they would with a wild animal or something like that.

• 23:26Jesse Michels?

  So wild.

• 23:26Speaker 00

  And but it was screaming like a little baby.

• 23:29Jesse Michels?

  That's what he says, screaming like a child.

• 23:30Speaker 00

  Screaming like a child, yeah.

• 23:32Speaker 11

  The fire department was dispatched to this location after receiving several calls from concerned residents who reported seeing something strange in the area.

• 23:54Speaker 00

  First of all, I'd like to take a quick moment to acknowledge all the Brazilian UFO researchers have done a stellar job helping expose this story. Claudio Kovo, Pacchini, Uber Jada Rodriguez, Marco Petit, AJ Givard. I mean, these guys that came before us, you know, Marco Leal's been on it for over 20 years, my partner, he's amazing. And the persistence of all of them and Marco and I knocking on doors, like going downtown, putting up signs, like leading us to people. Like, I just want to give one example of how we got to the girls. Cause the girls are like, this is not a career enhancing move for these girls in a small town to be talking about.

• 24:39Speaker 00

  They got made fun of, ridiculed, laughed at, like their life was a living hell. Men in black showed up at their mom's house.

• 24:47Jesse Michels?

  And they got offered cash to retract their statements.

• 24:51Speaker 00

  A lot of money.

• 24:51Jesse Michels?

  And they did not.

• 24:52Speaker 00

  They did not. And the mother said, I will not have, my daughters are not liars. That will not, that will not happen.

• 24:56Jesse Michels?

  That's right.

• 24:57Speaker 00

  They were very intimidating to her. And like, so all this pressure and all this, you know, but I, I was there with, I was in Virginia, I'm going to say it was my second or third time and it was probably 2012 would be my guess. And I was doing a silly TV show, which I'm not proud of at all. My bad, but whatever. It got me to where I am now, I guess. And I was for National Geographic. Oh God, it was so bad. Sorry guys. And we were out wandering in the, in the jungle at night and I got bit by a spider.

• 25:31Jesse Michels?

  Ooh.

• 25:32Speaker 00

  And it was like midnight or something. We, she had no business out, so silly. I got bit by a spider and by the fang marks, it looked like it could have been a Brazilian wandering spider, which is deadly. They get me to this clinic and they had to go to an antivenom and I was up all night getting this drip feed. And then the next day I didn't get any sleep and the camera crew, the whole team, they were like, we're going here and we got this scheduled, da, da, da. And I was like, I've been up all night, man. Like I, I'm on camera TV talent and you guys are expecting, I was like, at the very least, I need to stop at a cafe and get a, get a juice. Cause like Brazil's known for having incredible juice, right? Fresh juice. I love it. Mango, papaya, whatever. And they're like, no, no, no, we don't have time. We don't have time. And I was like, I, you know, and the car was stopped. The van that I was in was stopped at a stoplight and I just

• 26:17Speaker 00

  opened the door and got out. I was like, you guys leave without me. I'm not, I need some juice. I need something. I need something to nourish me. So I walked into this random like cafe juice bar and I'm in there ordering and this guy's looking at me and I think he said something in English like, hey, are you, what are you, are you American? And I was like, yeah. What are you, what are you doing here? And I was like, oh, I'm kind of working with a TV show, you know, covering the Virginia, the 1996 Virginia incident. He goes, oh my gosh, I dated one of the girls. I said, really? And we're trying to reach them. We're trying to find them. And he goes, let me, hang on. Takes his phone out. Boom. Gets her on the phone. Hey, what's it gonna take you? And that's how we first met. Whoa. And so had I not been bitten by the, you know what I mean? Like, Whoa.

• 27:01Speaker 00

  The way it all went down. Yeah, I know. That's crazy. Really crazy, right?

• 27:06Speaker 09

  The creature was there.

• 27:09Speaker 09

  And we just came by this way.

• 27:11Speaker 00

  I didn't realize that's closer than I expected. It's like eight feet away.

• 27:16Speaker 20

  And he was absolutely sweltering, sweating profusely, and it was incredibly hot.

• 27:22Speaker 09

  And so he was going through it, you know, suffering from the intense heat, the scorching sun and the effect it had on his skin. Remember I said, hey, everyone, look over there. Then he turned, I saw his eyes and I immediately ran away. So when he turned, we could only see his eyes and what looked like a slit, but we couldn't really tell if he had a normal mouth like ours or something else entirely.

• 27:46Speaker 00

  When they locked eyes with this being, what were they thinking?

• 27:49Speaker 09

  Well, it wasn't a human that we saw, honestly. It wasn't an animal either. And so these days I truly believe it's a being from another planet.

• 28:07Speaker 09

  Back then, you know, we were always in pause. We were children of Catholic parents, right? Pause, and that it could be a demon. So that's why we ended up being afraid back then, you know?

• 28:20Speaker 00

  So the three girls run to her house. And they say, "We saw this creature. We might have been the devil," or whatever it was. And do they get in the car and drive here? Do they walk here? How did they get here? And what did they see when they got here?

• 28:35Speaker 05

  She said, "Let's go there in the pickup truck." And I told her, "I'm not going, I'm too scared. I won't come back." Then Luis asked, "Please, won't you come with me?" So I finally got into the pickup truck, and we came back. We ended up stopping right here, look.

• 28:46Speaker 21

  In that very spot, I saw the creature's track, its foot. I will never forget it, I swear to God. Oh, I'm still trembling. Do you want to see one toe, then another long toe? And then another toe like this, look. Smaller.

• 29:03Jesse Michels?

  Yes.

• 29:07Speaker 11

  Roughly three hours after the girls witnessed the strange creature, military police officers Eric Lopes and Marco Chirisi drive down this road on the lookout for something unusual when suddenly it runs right across their path.

• 29:26Speaker 22

  These military personnel exited the vehicle. These soldiers, but most notably Marco Chirisi, wrestled with this creature to bring it under control.

• 29:39Speaker 18

  It was captured by Marco Chirisi with his bare hands, easily, and taken him to hospital.

• 29:47Jesse Michels?

  So what happens is Marco Chirisi, who's this soldier, apprehends this alien being, grabs him, Yep. brings him into the vehicle, right? Yep. No hesitation, puts it on his lap. So wild. And then he ends up with this gnarly bacterial infection and I don't want to get too, too into the details because Chris Ramsey is going to do an amazing follow up with you, kind of which double clicks on this autopsy, but you have the autopsy of this soldier who's died because he basically grabbed an alien being and, and it shows bacteria.

• 30:25Speaker 00

  Yeah. You had the guy, the founder of the company IPD and you could get the, it's an acronym, but the founder of the company, Dr. Janini and the guy that did the autopsy on the deceased military officer, Dr. Armando, participated on camera for this cut of the movie.

• 30:40Jesse Michels?

  Yeah. It's amazing. You have the, the, you have the, the guy who provided the, the report and all the infrastructure for the report.

• 30:46Speaker 00

  The one who founded the company.

• 30:47Jesse Michels?

  And the guy who founded the company and, and, and the, the autopsy guy, both saying, and they were using words like ET.

• 30:54Speaker 00

  I get goosebumps.

• 30:55Jesse Michels?

  And, and then they're the ones speculating that the, that the claw from the ET must have punctured the skin. And it's like this.

• 31:03Speaker 00

  He said, the bacteria most likely came from the, under the nail of the ET, which didn't mean to like, wasn't like an evil ET that tried to kill this guy. He just like, accidentally in the process of grabbing it.

• 31:14Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 31:15Speaker 00

  He got a little scratch right under his armpit.

• 31:18Speaker 23

  Based on the circumstantial evidence that has come to my attention, it was a very distinct and deliberate scratch on the razor's skin clearly inflicted by ET. I truly believe he was a victim of, of ET's nail, you know, his sharp claw.

• 31:37Speaker 23

  Why was it so resistant? What biochemical gain did it possess to completely escape the antibiotics? It just sailed through destroying everything in just one week. That's very, very atypical.

• 31:59Speaker 00

  Yeah, I won't go into detail about it, but basically never before, never since.

• 32:03Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 32:03Speaker 00

  They've never seen anything like this bacteria. This was an advanced bacteria that did things that nothing on earth, no bacteria on earth does.

• 32:11Jesse Michels?

  You see them in the movie saying that, and it's like.

• 32:13Speaker 00

  Incredible. And it's not anonymous. They're not doing this anonymously. Neither is the neurosurgeon.

• 32:19Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 32:19Speaker 00

  Neither is the neurosurgeon, and he's still working at the hospital today.

• 32:25Jesse Michels?

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• 33:08Jesse Michels?

  of all United States e-commerce. From big names like Jimm Shark and Mattel to solo creators building from their bedrooms. Shopify made it simple to build a store that actually feels authentic to us, which matters when your brand lives in a niche like alternative tech, UFOs, or fringe science, and when you have a very clear brand vision. Plus, their AI tools help write descriptions, organize products, even clean up photos, so we can focus on what matters and what we care about, building the best custom merch line possible with the coolest designs like our UFO Cowboy tee and the Atomic Age tee. Plus, Shopify handles all of the unglamorous, more painful stuff: shipping, returns, email marketing,

• 33:51Jesse Michels?

  all in one clean dashboard. It's like having a silent partner who never sleeps. Our favorite part of the product is the dashboard, which gives us complete demographic information. We can see where our orders come from, making it easy to know who our most loyal, consistent customers are around the world. That's just one example, but Shopify really makes your life easier. Bring your next idea to life with Shopify quietly handling everything behind it. Sign up for your $1 per month trial and start today at Shopify.com/Jesse. Again, that's Shopify.com/Jesse, J-E-S-S-E, for a $1 a month trial. Just $1 a month to try Shopify, the state-of-the-art solution in e-commerce.

• 34:37Jesse Michels?

  And they tried to suppress this report in Marco Charisi's sister.

• 34:40Speaker 00

  Oh, you tried to get, yes.

• 34:41Jesse Michels?

  Basically had to sue them and wrest the report out of them.

• 34:44Speaker 00

  And the wife. The wife couldn't get the autopsy report from her husband.

• 34:48Jesse Michels?

  That's crazy.

• 34:49Speaker 00

  And she was like pregnant at the time.

• 34:50Jesse Michels?

  It's horrible.

• 34:52Speaker 00

  You know?

• 34:52Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 34:54Speaker 00

  God, that was one thing that Dr. Roger Lear, thank you, Dr. Roger Lear, for tracking down the wife in 2002.

• 35:00Speaker 11

  After a protracted legal battle, the family finally received the death certificate. It was produced by IPD Laboratory, the Institute of Prevention and Diagnostics in Virginia.

• 35:13Speaker 24

  Nesse exame aqui, nesse laudo fala que ele tem uma presença de granulações tóxicas finas em oito por cento neutrofilos, onde foi adquirida uma substância não identificada. Portanto, que ele veio morrer de uma infecção generalizada, mas sem uma causa justa.

• 35:33Speaker 00

  All the witnesses that claim that Marco Charisi handled a creature, a strange creature, it doesn't have to be from another world, it was a strange creature, he gets some unknown infection, you did everything you could to save him, and he died. Do you believe that there's some credibility to that story?

• 35:54Speaker 25

  Sim, a história de credibilidade. Ele expôs isso.

• 36:00Speaker 25

  Como um desabafo até pra tentar uma ajuda pra ser próprio, pra poder salvar a vida dele, que ele percebeu que ele estava indo. E segundo a irmã, ele estava impedido de noticiar isto.

• 36:18Speaker 06

  Marco Elie Cherez de 23 anos trabalhava na B2. A família só sabe que ele participava de uma operação secreta. Você confirma que o seu irmão estava de serviço naquele dia 20? Confirma.

• 36:32Speaker 00

  De find Marta, a irmã do desaparecido oficial militar Marco Cherez, ela tinha ido, eu quero dizer, sim, ela tinha falado públicamente naquela época do incidente, ano dois, três, o que quer que seja, e então, tipo, as pessoas se afastaram. Não tinha nada a ganhar e tudo a perder. Tipo, só indo contra, você sabe, Goliath. E as pessoas só querem suas vidas de volta, você sabe? E eu fui para o centro de cidadãos e eu estava, eu estava falando, eu olhava na plaza de cidadãos de Varginha, e eu olhava para pessoas velhas, porque eu estava tipo, tudo bem, essas pessoas, você sabe? E eu andava e eu estava apenas perguntando. E eu me lembro que meu sound guy era de Rio. E ele estava como, ele olhou para mim, ele estava tipo, cara, você está insano? Tipo, o que você está fazendo? Eu estava tipo, você sabe, se eu tenho uma chance de 0001%, eu vou para isso, toda vez, certo?

• 37:17Speaker 00

  E então eu estava apenas indo e então eu encontrei esse cara velho e ele estava tipo, oh, sim, acho que eu sei, ela mudou para esse local, isso e aquilo. E nós estamos andando em uma batalha de gusos aleatórios, nós vamos tocar em portas em lugares aleatórios.

• 37:30Speaker 00

  Três ou quatro horas depois, nós tocamos nessa uma porta, a porta abre, lá está a irmã de Marco Cherez, Marta, que era tipo, e eu me lembro que meu sound guy olhou para mim e ele disse, você é o filho da caca mais feliz que eu tenho já tido. Eu disse, ah, bem, não é isso, eu não tenho sorte. Eu estava tocar em portas para achar ela. E a sua namorada era muito protetiva e ele estava usando essa roupa de namorada preta e ele estava apenas arrancado. E ele estava tipo, sentado no fundo, tipo, você me dá o beijo e eu vou arrancar a cabeça desse cara. Tipo, para mim, certo? E ela não sabe quem é o que é que eu sou, certo? Todo mundo é paranoico, tipo, eu sou algum americano. E eu disse, eu estou aqui para dar ao seu irmão justiça, para dar à sua irmã uma voz. And that broke the tension immediately.

• 38:16Jesse Michels?

  Yes.

• 38:16Speaker 00

  And I was like, okay, let's talk. And then we, and then that's how I got in with Martha Tavoris.

• 38:22Speaker 11

  When her brother falls ill, she asks about his involvement with the case.

• 38:27Speaker 09

  And this is the story, the creature from outer space. Look, this story will be a big deal.

• 38:38Jesse Michels?

  So one, so one of the beings gets captured with a net.

• 38:41Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 38:42Jesse Michels?

  The, the other being.

• 38:43Speaker 00

  So the only.

• 38:44Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 38:44Speaker 00

  The only two really solid ones that we have, but we have information on others.

• 38:52Speaker 00

  Up to five. But again, I only reported on two because that was the most concrete eyewitness testimony that we could get our hands on. And that was one capture in the morning by the fire department with a net. Apparently that one died. But that's the one that was crying. And then the, the other one, which was Marco Cherez and Eric Lopes. And it's interesting actually, because when you watch the movie, and a lot of people miss this. When we doorstepped Eric Lopes and a lot of people, a lot of people criticize us for that. Like, how could you just doorstep this guy? You just show up at his house. It's like, well, we exhausted every other possible avenue for decades.

• 39:29Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 39:30Speaker 00

  All the research has had, like, he wasn't talking, period.

• 39:32Jesse Michels?

  And he was the, the military transport guy.

• 39:35Speaker 00

  He was the one driving the car.

• 39:36Jesse Michels?

  Driving the car.

• 39:37Speaker 00

  Fellow intelligence officer, police officer Marco Cherez jumped out and grabbed it.

• 39:41Jesse Michels?

  Because the being was in the way of the car.

• 39:43Speaker 00

  Went right across the road, right in front of him. Yeah. And it was just a couple of blocks away from where the girls had seen this creature just two hours earlier.

• 39:49Jesse Michels?

  And Eric Lopes.

• 39:50Speaker 00

  Everything lines up.

• 39:51Jesse Michels?

  Said, I will deter you with bullets or something like he was threatening you. He said he'd shoot you.

• 39:57Speaker 00

  But before he said that, he's like, if you're here to talk about the ET, he, he, he won't talk. He referred to himself in the third person.

• 40:10Speaker 00

  It's kind of like, it's kind of like the police showing up at your door at a party. And, you know, and you answer the door, you see the police and you go, there's no drugs in this house. It's like, the police always like, I didn't ask you about any drugs, but now that you mention it.

• 40:22Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 40:22Speaker 00

  It's interesting, you know? He said, if you're here to talk about the ET, something like, if you're here to talk about the ET, he won't talk.

• 40:29Jesse Michels?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 40:31Speaker 00

  We didn't even say anything yet. We just said hello.

• 40:34Jesse Michels?

  So that plus threatening to shoot you, I think is, you know, not a normal reaction.

• 40:39Speaker 00

  He was like, he, he brought the ET up. We did bring the ET up. He did. So it's like, read between the lines there.

• 40:45Jesse Michels?

  Tacit admission of something.

• 40:48Speaker 00

  Yeah. And, and, and when I, when I was standing there trying to make sense of what was going on, because it was like, everything was happening really quickly. And they were talking, you know, and like, I speak French and I speak a little Spanish. And I could really, like, when I'm in the field, I really want to understand what's being said. Even when I was in China, I was like, learning Chinese. I, I just, I have to be able to communicate. So I, I can, I have this level of focus where I really try. But these things were happening really quickly. He was making threats, I guess, about shooting me and shooting everybody else, even though there was a 10 year old kid there. And I'm looking in the eyes of this guy and he's up, he's like up in a window on the second floor, looking down at us. And he's got something in one hand, and I don't know, what if he had a gun,

• 41:31Speaker 00

  whatever he had. But he's military intelligence. He's P2, like, he probably doesn't have any problem. You know, I'm sure he's armed to the teeth. But I'm looking in his eyes and, and, and I hear all this commotion going around me, but I had a moment where time almost stopped. And I looked into this guy's eyes and I, I just saw eyes of someone that I've never, I've never seen before because, like, they look so grief stricken. They look so sad. Like, I was just like, I, it's like time stopped and I'm looking in this guy's eyes and I've never seen eyes like that before. Like, if you could imagine harboring or witnessing a murder or something really intense and then having to be quiet about it because maybe your family's threatened or your life's threatened or who knows what?

• 42:16Speaker 00

  Like, and you had to harbor that for the better part of 30 years? Like, the toll that would take on you?

• 42:22Jesse Michels?

  Well, you, you see it even, even you hear it with, with what he says to you in the movie. And you, and you sense that he's been threatened, his family's been threatened and that he probably feels like kind of half a man or something. Like, he's been, you know, he's been submitted through force.

• 42:47Speaker 00

  So Eric, Eric won't talk. What just happened? I'm trying, what happened? Is that Eric Lopez? Who is that?

• 42:54Speaker 08

  Yeah, Eric Lopez.

• 42:55Speaker 00

  That's Eric Lopez.

• 43:00Speaker 00

  Turn me on, turn me on.

• 43:01Speaker 26

  Yeah, yeah, let's go.

• 43:03Speaker 00

  Oh my god, that was her.

• 43:05Speaker 26

  Brigada.

• 43:06Speaker 00

  Just saw her. Oh yeah, yeah.

• 43:11Speaker 00

  Okay, okay. We'll go talk. Did you get him, Dave? Did you get him? Please tell me you got him. That was Eric Lopez. Fuck, he got it. You got him in the window? Yeah. Fuck. If that guy had nothing to hide, he would have just said so.

• 43:31Speaker 00

  That guy was driving the car that Marco Chiesi was in.

• 43:37Speaker 11

  We received an unexpected request for a meeting from the chief neurosurgeon at Hospital Regional. The same hospital where military police officers Marco Chiesi and Eric Lopes allegedly had taken the live alien they'd captured on the road. Dr. Italo Ventorelli, the head neurosurgeon at Hospital Regional, was on duty in the ICU when he had the most extraordinary encounter of his life.

• 44:07Speaker 00

  Taken in this room, or which room?

• 44:09Speaker 08

  This room.

• 44:10Speaker 00

  Right here.

• 44:10Speaker 26

  But the video that saw this child's surgery...

• 44:13Speaker 00

  The alien was alive in this bed, right there. So he saw the creature right there.

• 44:19Speaker 26

  He saw the creature right there.

• 44:20Speaker 00

  The creature was right there.

• 44:21Speaker 26

  While he was watching the video on the surgery.

• 44:25Speaker 08

  His eyes, they were like teardrops, red, much redder, especially right here, you know? And he was, well, partially covered. He was right here, you know? But he was, he was still alive.

• 44:37Speaker 00

  He looked at, in the eyes of the creature?

• 44:41Speaker 08

  Yes.

• 44:41Speaker 00

  In this bed?

• 44:42Speaker 08

  In this, in this bed.

• 44:43Speaker 00

  And what, what did the creature say to you? What?

• 44:47Speaker 08

  I saw the red eyes.

• 44:50Speaker 08

  His face was white, his eyes were red, and he wasn't showing any suffering at all, no.

• 44:54Speaker 26

  If there was perhaps a possible telepathic communication?

• 44:57Speaker 08

  Yes, yes, right there, you see? As if to say, you know, something like, "I'm perfectly fine, I've been well looked after."

• 45:03Speaker 09

  He said, yes, for sure. A communication as someone would say, yes, I am OK. I've received care. That's what he felt from the expression of the being. To speak without speaking. It spoke without.

• 45:19Speaker 11

  According to Dr. Italo, a being underwent a procedure by his colleague, fellow neurosurgeon, Dr. Marcos Venecio Neves, who died in 2018 of a heart attack.

• 45:31Speaker 27

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• 46:01Speaker 28

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• 46:06Speaker 28

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• 46:09Speaker 28

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• 46:18Speaker 28

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• 46:24Speaker 28

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• 46:31Speaker 00

  The other primary witness was his partner, a fellow neurosurgeon who was slightly below him, Marcos Venesis. And Marcos Venesis, there's a lot to that story as well.

• 46:46Speaker 00

  He had a heart attack in 2018. He didn't survive, and he passed.

• 46:50Jesse Michels?

  And he did surgery on the alien being.

• 46:52Speaker 00

  He did a procedure on the being, yes. Yes. Yeah, I know.

• 46:56Jesse Michels?

  And so he died in 2018.

• 46:59Speaker 00

  2018, yes.

• 47:00Jesse Michels?

  And Ventorelli, he said he was face to face with this being. And what did he describe as far as that interaction?

• 47:09Speaker 00

  He said that this is incredible. It's hard to kind of wrap my mind around it, you know? It's like I've had very, I've only had a couple of.

• 47:19Speaker 00

  Cases where I'm almost kind of pinching myself during filming. One of them was with the former governor of Arizona, Fife Symington, when he confessed after 10 years that he had not only believed about the Phoenix Lights case, but that he too was a witness to the event. And then he looked into it and he, as a pilot in the air force, he said that thing could not have been from here. And I said, how did you know that, governor? And he goes, because of its size and its flight characteristics, it couldn't have been from here. It had to be otherworldly, is how he put it. And that was a moment in my career where I honestly, and I'm not just making this up.

• 48:01Speaker 00

  I remember sitting in my chair and I'm going, did the governor of Arizona just say that he too saw it? And that he looked into it and he felt it was otherworldly? And I'm like, I think I must be dreaming. And so I'm like pinching my, I literally grabbed my leg and I pinched it. And, and I was like, no, I feel that. I'm not dreaming. Then I said, I bet the cameras aren't rolling. So I looked over at the camera to see if the, you know? And then when we were with Dr. Italo, the neurosurgeon in Regional Hospital, that he just snuck us in the back gate, like, you know, with all cameras rolling and the audio guys and everything. And then he starts talking about like, this is the bed, this is the ICU. I was like, holy shit. This guy's just going full Komodo.

• 48:45Speaker 00

  Like he's just saying, the hell with it, whatever the consequences. This is what happened. I was here, I sat with it in this bed, right here in this room for three to four minutes.

• 49:05Speaker 11

  After several minutes of interaction with the being in this exact ICU at Hospital Regional, Dr. Italo told us the military burst in and took the being, then threatened the hospital staff to remain silent.

• 49:21Speaker 00

  Ask him how it feels to be sharing this information after 29 years.

• 49:31Speaker 09

  Feels like crying.

• 49:36Speaker 08

  Excuse me.

• 49:40Jesse Michels?

  So this is, you have a neurosurgeon who's, you know, again, extremely credentialed.

• 49:54Speaker 00

  Everything to lose, nothing to gain.

• 49:55Jesse Michels?

  Had some health scares and giving you this testimony and he freaks out, he's gonna lose his job. He ends up giving you the testimony in the cafe. His, his good friend had done surgery on the beam?

• 50:08Speaker 00

  A procedure, Marcos Venesis.

• 50:10Jesse Michels?

  Marcos Venesis. Did he say anything about that surgery? Because what is surgery like on an alien being?

• 50:17Speaker 00

  So apparently it was, uh, and, and I'm not qualified to do, you know, I'm not a neurosurgeon, but from what I understand is that there was swelling from head trauma and that he had released the pressure by putting, I guess they do a little hole or something like that where it releases the pressure. It was something like that. It was a procedure to release the, uh huh, from the head trauma.

• 50:41Jesse Michels?

  See that?

• 50:41Speaker 00

  I would imagine it was maybe something to do with the accident. I don't, I don't know.

• 50:45Jesse Michels?

  But no, but, but that, that is, that's sort of satisfies. Like if I were to throw any sort of skepticism at this, it would be, um, you know, how are you dealing with alien organs? Like what do you, you don't really know what to do.

• 50:58Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 50:58Jesse Michels?

  You know, but if it's just a, like a head pressure, you know, release or something that, that makes some sense to me.

• 51:04Speaker 00

  Could have been head trauma.

• 51:05Jesse Michels?

  How, how did he protect himself from the bacteria if he's doing, was he, was he just like?

• 51:10Speaker 00

  Who's in the ICU? Everyone in the ICU has full protective gear on.

• 51:13Jesse Michels?

  Yep.

• 51:13Speaker 00

  Yep. Cause we, even just to walk in with no patient, we had to put all the gear on.

• 51:18Jesse Michels?

  Yep.

• 51:18Speaker 00

  You can't go into the ICU without it.

• 51:19Jesse Michels?

  Yep.

• 51:20Speaker 00

  You got face mask, glove, everything, apron.

• 51:23Jesse Michels?

  And it was probably with Marcos Charise, um, there was probably some interaction with his blood because he, there was a, maybe a, a punctured wound or something. And so.

• 51:33Speaker 00

  I wish like hell Marcos Venesis hadn't died.

• 51:37Jesse Michels?

  Hmm.

• 51:38Speaker 00

  For so many reasons.

• 51:39Jesse Michels?

  I mean, interviewing a guy who's done surgery on an alien being would be.

• 51:43Speaker 00

  I know. It's really frustrating. However.

• 51:45Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 51:45Speaker 00

  We have not given up. Like I said, by the time your audience watches this, I've already been back and we have a huge meeting with all the doctors, as many as we can get. So.

• 51:55Jesse Michels?

  Have you talked to his family at all?

• 51:57Speaker 00

  Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah.

• 51:58Jesse Michels?

  Marcos Venesis?

• 51:59Speaker 00

  Oh.

• 52:01Speaker 00

  Marcos Venises's daughter, Marcos Venises's, he had a mistress and he had a, he had a kid with the mistress. We, we, we talked with the, the wife and um

• 52:12Jesse Michels?

  Did they all say that?

• 52:13Speaker 00

  No, they were very guarded.

• 52:15Jesse Michels?

  Okay.

• 52:16Speaker 00

  But not like, no, it didn't happen. Like, okay. Well, you know, like guard, what?

• 52:23Speaker 00

  You come in as outsiders to a place. It takes a while. Like, like it took, when the film came out. And that was actually one of the reasons why the, the, the police officer, he's like, you're doing a serious investigation. One of the reasons why I'm talking to you is you, you're investigating something that I participated in. Like you, you clearly are taking this seriously. I'm, I'm, I'm providing a platform. We are providing a platform for people to come forward and not be ridiculed, not be laughed at, taken seriously. And like, you know, kind of like first time in decades, right? So they're seeing this is a real effort to really get the truth out. And it's power in numbers, you know, and um, um, and, and again, I, I, I think this is the beginning of the beginning

• 53:05Speaker 00

  on this case. I, I believe that. I mean, this is an extremely compelling, like new account, new cut of the, of the case, but I think it's going to get better.

• 53:16Jesse Michels?

  Yeah. Well, I think if you believe that, that's going to determine the outcome because you're the prime mover of a lot of this stuff. And I, I know you've given credit as it's due to many of these local Brazilian UFO researchers. Uh, but I think as far as mass exposure, you are, you are helping them, you know, really get this thing out and you keep going back. And so I really admire that. If this were a court case, you would have an overwhelming amount of evidence that something happened. Whatever the thing is that you're trying to prove in court, this would be far beyond the threshold of evidence that you would need.

• 53:52Speaker 00

  I think we could sway any jury.

• 53:53Jesse Michels?

  I think you could sway any jury. And so the Ventorelli thing's just fascinating. You, you end up in a cafe with him.

• 54:00Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 54:00Jesse Michels?

  He gets very emotional. He starts crying because clearly he's held this in for

• 54:05Speaker 00

  Twenty nine years.

• 54:06Jesse Michels?

  Twenty nine years. And

• 54:08Speaker 00

  Can you imagine the weight of that on your shoulders?

• 54:10Jesse Michels?

  No, I can't.

• 54:11Speaker 00

  And you're watching all this speculation. You're watching all this conjecture, all this media coverage, the debunking going on from the military, like, excuse me, the witnesses, you know, adamantly saying, you know, this is what I saw, particularly those, the three girls, you know, and then knowing that you sat. In the hospital room, in the ICU with a live captured alien and had direct telepathic communication.

• 54:34Jesse Michels?

  Face to face.

• 54:35Speaker 00

  Face to face, man.

• 54:35Jesse Michels?

  Eye to eye.

• 54:36Speaker 00

  Doesn't get any more incredible than that. Like, as someone who's been around the world.

• 54:41Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 54:41Speaker 00

  Interviewed people, like, you know, we have close encounters of the third kind, you know, where people claim, you know, entities connected to a craft that's in the wild. I mean, it happened in Rua, that happened in Socorro, um, you know, lots of cases in China, you know, all around the world. But that's like, people seeing a landed craft and seeing entities connected allegedly to the craft, and that's close encounter of the third kind. But to actually have an alien, alleged alien, in captivity and having direct contact, direct communication. He said, "You look into the eyes of this creature and despite the fact that it was in captivity, it had control of the whole room."

• 55:21Jesse Michels?

  Usually, the person experiencing the thing is kind of discreditable. Often, they live in, you know, somewhere in the woods or something. The interaction occurs in some remote place, and it's just this kind of inherently ephemeral thing where you have to take their word for it. I would actually say those people are sort of more trustworthy in some ways than like, you know, uh, often people who are kind of insider-y types or whatever. But in this case, you have a person whose credentials are unimpeachable. He runs a chain of hospitals. He, you know, people are, their lives are on the line.

• 55:54Speaker 00

  Works on people's brains.

• 55:55Jesse Michels?

  Works on people's brains. He's a neurosurgeon. He's a concert pianist. And, you know, clearly, all of the incentives go in the direction of him not revealing any of this stuff. And because he's had a couple of life-threatening illnesses and scares, he comes out and speaks to you. What does he say about his interaction with the being?

• 56:19Speaker 00

  The being was very calm. And it was, it was, uh,

• 56:26Speaker 00

  it had sort of acquiesced to being in captivity and was very calm and that it was, it was okay. That it wasn't suffering, it wasn't in pain. And he said, when he looked into the eyes of it, it read his mind, like it could just read all of his thoughts. He's like, it was an advanced intelligence. And I kept saying, like, what do you mean by that? He goes, there's nothing here on earth like it. He called it like an angel. And it was, it was compassionate, caring, like it, an advanced intelligence. And I said, explain that. He goes, way more advanced than anything on earth, way more advanced than, than myself, just way beyond.

• 57:11Speaker 00

  And that you, and he said, one of the last things he said was, there's so much to learn from the eyes of that being.

• 57:22Speaker 09

  We have so much to learn in the eyes of this being.

• 57:28Speaker 00

  Just looking into the eyes. And it's just amazing to think, you know, think about that. And you know, you hear other cases in the wild where people talk about, you're looking in the eyes of the creature, Ruwa Zimbabwe. You know, Socor, New Mexico. I remember the wife of Lonnie Zamora looking at me and she goes, I don't know what happened when he looked at that creature, but he was never the same. Like the community, there's some communication that occurs with the eyes. And that's exactly what he said.

• 57:55Jesse Michels?

  He said, there's so much to learn from them and they're advanced, like more advanced somehow than, than human consciousness, which is, and then what did he say about the physical characteristics?

• 58:07Speaker 00

  Big, big head, almond shaped eyes, they were red. Now, interestingly, the skin was more white than brown. And I don't know, this is just speculation, but when the girls came in contact with this being, that was most likely the same being that he had in the hospital because the, like, the girls saw it. They got within 10 feet of it. It was really hot. It was a really hot day in the summertime, January summer over in Brazil. And it was suffering. It was like kind of exuding some kind of weird smell, like almost like a skunk would, you know, when it's fearful or feeling threatened or vulnerable.

• 58:45Speaker 09

  But his eyes were red. His skin was oily. I couldn't see him with an open mouth laughing. No, not happy, but sad, hunched over, pale and sad. And he had no hair. And I saw that he was frightened, just as I was frightened. The creature was also frightened. The desnanad, the fear that we ourselves possess, just as we became afraid of this. This being whose nature we do not know.

• 59:11Speaker 00

  And it was suffering and the girls said it was suffering. In fact, when, when all three girls came into contact with that creature, two of them, the two sisters grabbed each other by the hand and high tailed it out of there. And they realized they had left Katia behind. Katia was the oldest. She was probably 21. And, um, and Valkyria and Liliani, the two sisters stopped and realized, shoot, we got to go back and get Katia. And Katia was locked eyes with this creature. And it was pleading to her, cause I asked Katia, what was it saying? It was like, I need help. It was suffering. I need help. It wanted help. And I just thought, my gosh, can you imagine how different it would have been if they'd

• 59:51Speaker 00

  gone with, if the girls had taken the creature and, and hidden or, you know, who knows? Like giving it aid or whatever. Anyway, the girl, Liliani, Katia stayed behind. The youngest, she was like maybe 14. Liliani was 16. Katia was 21. Liliani ran back and grabbed Katia and yanked her out of there. And then the reason why we're pretty sure that that's the same being that Dr. Italo had direct telepathic communication with in captivity is because we did all aerial photography of the area. And if you look at where the girls came in, encountered like late afternoon with the creature, just a few blocks away is where the capture occurred. It had to be the same being.

• 1:00:35Speaker 00

  It was just literally two blocks away from where the two military officers, Marco Shries and Eric Lopes captured the creature around six o'clock, something like that, about two hours later, two, two and a half. And then they took it to one little.

• 1:00:54Speaker 00

  Clinic and apparently the doctor came out and took one look in the backseat and there was, you know, Marco, Sharie's military officer with this creature on his, and he's like, I don't know what that thing is, but get it out of here. So then they went to regional hospital. And that's where Italo was. So it makes perfectly good sense. We knew that that creature went to regional.

• 1:01:14Jesse Michels?

  And so it went, when the women saw it, it was like brown or darker.

• 1:01:19Speaker 00

  It was, yeah.

• 1:01:19Jesse Michels?

  And then when he saw it, it was somehow.

• 1:01:21Speaker 00

  It was wider. It was, it was more of a white, big red eyes, just like the girl described, the little ridges on the, on the forehead, just like that, spindly arms, same height, same exact body structure, everything exactly the same, but the skin was more white.

• 1:01:37Jesse Michels?

  Do you think it was because it had, was emitting the ammonia or sulfur? Cause both, everybody says that it was, it smelled like rotten eggs.

• 1:01:45Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:01:45Jesse Michels?

  And it was ammonia or sulfur or some, some sort of smell.

• 1:01:49Speaker 13

  She immediately smelled ammonia. It was like rotten eggs, a very strong odor. I had to cover my nose with the shirt I was wearing.

• 1:01:59Speaker 29

  I couldn't stand the smell that was right here inside my nose. It lasted for about 20 days and I have no idea where that awful odor came from. I even went so far as to wash my nose with alcohol and water just to get rid of that smell.

• 1:02:13Speaker 00

  Stayed in the sinuses for days, if not weeks.

• 1:02:16Jesse Michels?

  Right.

• 1:02:17Speaker 00

  And like, um, there was another one, which was one of the deceased ones. We interviewed a radiologist and I think he was at regional hospital, pretty sure it was regional. And he said that the room where he did the performance of doing the x-rays that stank like for, they had to close that wing of the hospital down for days and they disinfected the whole thing. And he said it took days and it was in his sinuses. It was everywhere.

• 1:02:43Jesse Michels?

  Did the smell leave?

• 1:02:45Speaker 30

  But even after being washed and disinfected, the epidemic smell still lingered in the ward. In fact, our sector was closed because it couldn't accommodate external patients due to the very strong odor.

• 1:03:00Speaker 00

  So we're having a big meeting.

• 1:03:01Jesse Michels?

  Uh huh.

• 1:03:02Speaker 00

  In a week.

• 1:03:02Jesse Michels?

  Uh huh.

• 1:03:03Speaker 00

  We're meeting with, uh, pretty much all the doctors.

• 1:03:08Jesse Michels?

  Wow.

• 1:03:09Speaker 00

  Yeah. Some of them.

• 1:03:12Speaker 00

  You know, at Humanitas Hospital have stories. Some of them aren't ready to come forward just yet. Some of them might want to come forward, but there's power in numbers, strength in numbers. And according to the book by Roger Lear, there was another creature that was alive that went under a procedure because a lot of them got hurt in the crash evidently. That also had communication with the two doctors, but they're at Humanitas. So we're trying to find those guys right now. And Roger Lear was contacting me. It's probably 2013. And he was like, I know you're doing something on on Virginia and I gotta talk to you. I gotta talk to you. I said, yeah, we definitely gotta talk. Let me come. I gotta go on camera. There's things I need to discuss.

• 1:03:52Speaker 00

  And and I said, I kept like postponing and postponing. I was so busy. I was working like 17 hour days. I was so busy. I could barely talk. And he goes, well, you got really angry with me. And he was like, well, if you're not going to meet with me, I said, Roger, Dr. Lear, Roger, I, it's not that I don't want to meet with you. I just, I don't have the bandwidth right now. And he goes, well, look, take my tapes. Gives me his tapes. And I don't know how much time went by, but I don't know. I can't say. But I transferred the tapes. I sent them back to him and he died. And then fast forward, and that was very unfortunate. Fast forward probably 10 years, I'm guessing, or ish.

• 1:04:34Speaker 00

  I was making moment of contact because I was going to include Virginia in the phenomenon. And then I just couldn't squeeze it in. It was too, there's too many moving parts. Anyway. So when I was making the whole movie on it, I was like, oh, shit. I was like, the Roger Lear tapes. I got the tapes. He wrote a book, got the book. And the book was a transcript, transcription from the tapes because I had the tapes and I read the book. And but there was one section that wasn't in the tapes that was in the book. And that was, he met with two doctors from Humanitas Hospital. And they talk about a creature that was also undergoing some sort of procedure, hematitas, and then all of a sudden, there's this crazy thing that occurs in the room where

• 1:05:17Speaker 00

  there's this communication and weird smoke and just crazy. And the communication is basically like the entity saying to the doctors that we feel sorry for you, the human race, because you don't realize your potential, who you really are.

• 1:05:33Jesse Michels?

  Really?

• 1:05:33Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 1:05:34Jesse Michels?

  Which is the same message that the

• 1:05:36Speaker 00

  Not quite.

• 1:05:37Jesse Michels?

  Zambabwe.

• 1:05:38Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 1:05:38Jesse Michels?

  It's the same message where these schoolchildren, yeah, where it's like you don't understand how special you are and your potential.

• 1:05:45Speaker 00

  True potential and stuff like this. So I was like, oh, my gosh, if I could just get the name. And apparently, Ubudjaro Rodriguez, who was one of the leading investigators, a lawyer, who's gone, I don't know what happened to him. Pacchini got threatened. He disappeared for 20 years. Ubudjaro Rodriguez, God knows what he has, because he hasn't come forward and said yet. Pacchini apparently was shot at.

• 1:06:07Jesse Michels?

  Really?

• 1:06:08Speaker 00

  Yeah. He talks about it recently, because he disappeared for 20 years. I'm like, where's Pacchini?

• 1:06:11Jesse Michels?

  He said he was shot at.

• 1:06:12Speaker 00

  Was shot at, and he had a gun, and he shot back.

• 1:06:15Jesse Michels?

  And he says he would put his right hand on the Bible.

• 1:06:17Speaker 00

  Yes, he said he would testify, like, like, he would, he would put his right hand on a Bible, and he would take a public lie detector test.

• 1:06:24Jesse Michels?

  About there being

• 1:06:25Speaker 00

  About the footage.

• 1:06:25Jesse Michels?

  Video and footage of this alien.

• 1:06:27Speaker 00

  That he saw.

• 1:06:28Speaker 31

  I'm Vittorio Pacchini. I am one of the leading investigators of the Virginia incident since the very beginning. I know, and I saw with my own eyes, an alien creature kept in captivity in this 35-second video. It was right there, one of the alien creatures with two militaries, holding the creature by the shoulders. The creature was really ill, was not feeling good at all. They tried to give the creature some fruit and water. It didn't accept.

• 1:07:05Speaker 31

  And the reason why they filmed this creature without superior authorization, it's because they were pretty mad that the American militaries were coming to Brazil to take all this material, not only the pictures, the footage, but the creatures itself and the spacecraft, as they took it to the United States. So some other military's friend of mine.

• 1:07:34Speaker 31

  Had the chance without authorization to make this movie. And right now I'm willing to put my right hand tomorrow on a Bible and take a live public light detector test that everything I'm telling you is the truth.

• 1:07:51Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 1:07:52Speaker 00

  Now, he grew up in Tres Corazones, which is like the region, minus Jerrys, where the, as a military base is. So he knew all those people that worked at the base. They knew him, he grew up there. So like, after all the investigations, his life's threatened and all the stuff that went down, he said he disappeared. I think he went to go live with his mother or something, somewhere for 20 years. And then when Moment of Contact, the first version came out in 2022, that's when Pacchini came back on the radar and it was like, hey, you know what? I'm ready to get back in the ring.

• 1:08:21Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 1:08:22Speaker 00

  And, and, and finish this fight. And so, yeah.

• 1:08:24Jesse Michels?

  So you have, you have multiple people in the hospital system. You, you've now gotten milit- military whistleblowers. You have civilian witnesses.

• 1:08:31Speaker 00

  I have the guy that drove it.

• 1:08:33Jesse Michels?

  You have the guy that drove the being.

• 1:08:35Speaker 00

  Yeah, that saw it and drove it.

• 1:08:37Jesse Michels?

  To see, like, the amount of disparate, uncorrelated sources, I think, is just.

• 1:08:43Speaker 00

  Unbelievable.

• 1:08:44Jesse Michels?

  And that comes from you, literally, touching down in Virginia and on a piece of paper, like, do you know what happened in 1996?

• 1:08:51Speaker 00

  What does he think about the case? Does he think it happened or it didn't happen? What are your feelings on Virginia?

• 1:08:57Speaker 28

  Mas acredito. Sempre a mesma coisa que apareceu, que as moças viram.

• 1:09:02Speaker 25

  Eu acredito realmente no caso de Tesei.

• 1:09:04Jesse Michels?

  You have two types of people in this movie. People who are extremely afraid and admitting what they saw. And all of those stories line up.

• 1:09:13Speaker 00

  Everything lines up perfectly.

• 1:09:15Jesse Michels?

  And it all lines up perfectly. You have a flight path of the UFO, you have all these witnesses in these disparate, you know, places who aren't coordinating clearly. And then, so that's one type of person. And then you have the other type of people that are like lying through their teeth. And so, like, the, the commander at, so Ysa is.

• 1:09:32Speaker 00

  Yeah, Lima.

• 1:09:33Jesse Michels?

  Yeah, General Lima.

• 1:09:35Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:09:36Jesse Michels?

  And he said.

• 1:09:37Speaker 00

  We're in touch with him now, by the way.

• 1:09:38Jesse Michels?

  Oh, amazing. You got, you gotta talk to him because even if he lies to you, you know, it's like, you see, you see the smugness when he, he goes, um, you know, we were serving our country that day.

• 1:09:47Speaker 00

  National security.

• 1:09:48Jesse Michels?

  Can we get some, yeah, can we get some details on like, how you served the country that day? What you did? He said, no, absolutely not. And, but he says it in such a. Like a condescending cynical like I don't care what you think sort of way and then walks away.

• 1:10:28Speaker 19

  There was another part to this when interviews were conducted. And that's when Euclidis and Calado, the two young men from here, traveled all the way to the Sergeant's School of Arms in Tres Corazones.

• 1:10:42Speaker 19

  Then they managed to ask a question. Then the sergeant went inside, came back and said, "No, but aren't you going to say anything about the case? Look, if you ask one more question, you'll be arrested."

• 1:10:54Speaker 02

  "We were investigating the case at the ESA headquarters, the Sergeant's School of Arms, and I had never been arrested for doing my job, neither before nor after this case."

• 1:11:10Speaker 30

  "I was just having a normal, regular day at the barracks, you know? Then around nine o'clock in the morning, we received orders, a mission, to get some vehicles ready, you know, some trucks specifically for an important operation. And that we, our unit, would be deploying, we would be moving out, heading directly to the city of Virginia."

• 1:11:33Speaker 30

  "We were given the order that we should proceed to follow a number of specific vehicles, which were clearly unmarked and definitely not military. So I followed this military man, you know, who was from the Secret Service, passing through the city center, near the hospital, if I'm not mistaken, the regional hospital. And afterwards, we went to Humanitas Hospital."

• 1:12:01Speaker 32

  When the instruction was given to

• 1:12:04Speaker 30

  To back a vehicle up into Humanitas hospitals?

• 1:12:10Speaker 30

  When I was approaching the entrance, how exactly can I express it? Of the hospital's immediate surroundings, I noticed a container, a stainless steel table with a container on it, you know, with several doctors and other staff members holding clipboards.

• 1:12:31Speaker 30

  As I was analyzing, it seemed that everyone else was also caught up in the same thing. And when I realized, I saw something completely different. You know, a different kind of creature with skin that was very oily, very... I described it as having a sort of silicone-like texture. And that sight really startled me. But what truly caught my attention, what later convinced me that it wasn't a human being at all, was its foot.

• 1:13:08Speaker 11

  Everyone was completely taken aback by the news. They were all incredibly, incredibly surprised.

• 1:13:13Speaker 00

  We have for the first time ever as well, we have the police officer, which had been trying to get to him for so long. Marco Leal was going by his house, knocking on his door. He would set up arrangements for us to meet with him. And it was always, it was like slipping between your... It's like trying to grab a bar of soap in the bathtub. You know, it's like poo poo, like you got your hand on it, but then it's like gone, you know? And that was the former chief of police, Aguiar,

• 1:13:39Speaker 00

  Pedro Aguiar. And he had, he had, he had allegedly, according to people that tracked him down, he had a photograph of one of the things. But anyway, he described the activity at the base. He was at the base as chief of police. He was invited in there and he said that... He described it just like everybody else. Every single bit of testimony from separate people from all over the area, all fits perfectly. It's like putting together a piece of puzzle, right? Not once have we had it any other way. Like... You know, we're putting these pieces together. So now the piece we're missing is on the American side and we want to get with Humanitas Hospital. So it's like ongoing.

• 1:14:19Jesse Michels?

  Yeah. Well, the chief police says this is not a story. It's history.

• 1:14:23Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 1:14:24Jesse Michels?

  And, you know,

• 1:14:25Speaker 00

  You remember well.

• 1:14:26Jesse Michels?

  Oh, yeah. It's a great movie. And it's, he just, he said, you know, this happened.

• 1:14:30Speaker 00

  I participated.

• 1:14:31Jesse Michels?

  He said, I participated. Absolutely. And are you at all conspiratorial about the fact that he just died and that you were about to go in a couple of weeks to go see him?

• 1:14:42Speaker 00

  Yeah, again, I know.

• 1:14:43Jesse Michels?

  And allegedly, he has a photo of the ET being.

• 1:14:46Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:14:47Jesse Michels?

  Do you think that that timing is coincidental?

• 1:14:50Speaker 00

  I mean, anything's possible. It's very unfortunate.

• 1:14:53Jesse Michels?

  Was he in good health? Do you know?

• 1:14:55Speaker 00

  I mean, he's, you see him on camera.

• 1:14:57Jesse Michels?

  Yeah. And that was, that was, you filmed that, what? You filmed that like not too long ago.

• 1:15:01Speaker 00

  We knocked. So it was really crazy. Actually, it was just a couple of months ago and um, we were, we were going to doorstep him on the way to Vargine. You know, and I say doorstep and just show up at the door, right?

• 1:15:11Jesse Michels?

  Yep.

• 1:15:11Speaker 00

  And uh, for some reason, I was like, I want to stop and get a slice of pizza. And everyone's like, we gotta keep moving. It was like five o'clock or four thirty or something. I really was really hungry and I wanted to get a slice of pizza. So we stopped reluctantly. Half the crew was like, oh, we gotta keep moving, blah, blah, blah. Well, as it turns out, it was perfect because we, the owner of the pizza joint, you know, gave us pizza, gave us like really good, you know, we took like an hour and we just spent a really fun time having pizza with the owner of this pizza joint and near the area where we're going. But it set us back at least, at least 60 minutes, possibly 90 minutes. But, you know, it was a little later. Maybe it was like seven, seven thirty at that point. And we show up at his house and they had just gotten home like 10 minutes

• 1:15:53Speaker 00

  earlier. So we would have missed him had we not gone and stopped to get that pizza. And uh, what we did was, is we, you know, started talking to him at the door. Then we went inside and we had, we had some, we had audio. One of us had audio rolling and the guy in the car outside had, you know, our sound guy had a, you know, it was a remote transmitted back to a receiver. That was just, you know, the audio. And then we're talking, getting to know his wife, his son. And then I said,

• 1:16:24Speaker 00

  Would you mind if we bring a camera in here just to kind of, you know, document the moment a little bit, just ease our way into it? No, that's, that's okay. So in comes the camera, we're all sitting down, talking. And his wife, I'll never forget this, and I think I have a cut of it somewhere, but his wife had these like, her eyes were so big and like, kind of just like, and her wife was looking at her husband like, like just wouldn't blink. And I'm looking over at my cameraman, Dave, and I'm like, are you getting, you know, she's just looking at him like, I'm thinking, does she, does she have the photograph? Like, does she, you know, I don't know. Yeah. Is she worried that we're in there probing? Yeah. And, and at one point we asked him like, when things got more comfortable?

• 1:17:06Speaker 00

  And he goes, I'm a, I participated, I'm a witness, he saw the creature under a tarp, maybe the bottom half or something. And then he went into, as a military base, the activity, helicopters coming and landing. He goes, more brass than I'd ever seen ever before. Like there were higher ups from all different corners of Brazil, all there. Maybe you're in blind at some point, the, no, he did say the Americans came, they came to Campinas. He said that too, yeah, and took the goodies. But, um, but, uh, he seemed to be in relatively good health. I mean, you know, it didn't look like he was gonna win like a triathlon or anything, but he was in, I mean, he's in the movie. Yep. And, um, and he just died. Yeah, and he might have had a photo or footage.

• 1:17:49Speaker 00

  Well, we talked to two witnesses, one of the primary reasons that led us to him were two people that described, he pulled the photograph out and showed it and it had, uh, one alive, one, one deceased creature. And it had, uh, military police and a, and fire department, uh, in the picture with their faces. That, you know, that's according to the witnesses that we talked to. And when I pressed him on it, and I don't want to push too hard, but I definitely pressed him on it, I've got the footage. He said, um, I was like, well, when I talked to you a couple of years ago on a video Zoom call, you can, you confess that you had the photograph or at one point you had the photograph. And now you're saying you don't have the photograph, like what's, you know, and I really pressed him on it.

• 1:18:34Jesse Michels?

  What did he say?

• 1:18:35Speaker 00

  He said, well, there's certain things within the police department that have to go unsaid or something like that.

• 1:18:40Jesse Michels?

  Ah, come on, dude. Just let it out.

• 1:18:44Speaker 00

  You, you, you, you know, and I feel the frustration from people out there like, oh, there's not a picture. There's not a video. First of all, I never give up and I'm not giving up. I will never give up. I'm getting closer. We are as a team are getting closer and closer and closer. And the developments that are happening are unprecedented. It's an ongoing investigation. I'm not giving up. I think this is the case. That's going to blow it all out in the open. That's my humble opinion because I can't think of a better crash retrieval case involving the Americans. It's recent enough where the most of the people are still alive. Right? Like unless you can, I can't think of a crash retrieval case with live aliens better than Virginia.

• 1:19:22Jesse Michels?

  No, I think it's the best recent case and, and again, I think if this were a murder case, you'd have more than enough evidence that it happened. Yes. And so like there's this, you know, you want a smoking gun, you'd be, maybe you don't have that. But like I, I bet you in the world of deep fakes, if you've produced a photo, the, the, the, the goalpost would move and there'd still be skeptics who'd say, oh, look at the photo is blah, blah, blah. It's blurry, blah, blah, blah, you know?

• 1:19:50Speaker 00

  Unless the neurosurgeon who shot the video came forward. So you have providence. That would.

• 1:19:57Jesse Michels?

  I think that'd be pretty good. I think.

• 1:19:58Speaker 00

  That would be about as good as you can get.

• 1:20:00Jesse Michels?

  I think that'd be as good as I can get.

• 1:20:01Speaker 00

  And then it is what it is.

• 1:20:02Jesse Michels?

  It is what it is.

• 1:20:03Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:20:04Jesse Michels?

  Um, Jose Fernandez is this air traffic controller.

• 1:20:07Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 1:20:08Jesse Michels?

  Who, what, what does he see?

• 1:20:10Speaker 11

  His unit was responsible for monitoring specific airspace over the state of Sao Paulo.

• 1:20:17Speaker 33

  Do you know anything about this case? What I am aware of is that the US Air Force made a landing in Campinas. A specific aircraft belonging to the United States Air Force landed there in Campinas. And following that, two helicopters took off from the very same Campinas airport, proceeding to an entirely unknown destination, which we later came to understand was the city of Virginia.

• 1:20:42Speaker 34

  They landed, collected something that no one knows what it was, then returned to Campinas, placed it inside the USF aircraft, and then they took off, they were gone. And the mission was... what we were told was silence.

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• 1:22:01Speaker 00

  So, it was really funny, actually, because let's back up a little bit, but a couple of years. And I was just talking to Lou Elizondo about this.

• 1:22:10Speaker 00

  Lou was pestering me before I had a final cut of the first version of Moment of Contact, and he was like, "I need a copy." And little did I know about what was happening behind the scenes. "I need a copy." I said, "Lou, it's not done." He goes, "I don't care, I need a copy."

• 1:22:27Speaker 00

  And I said, "Okay, sure." He goes, "If you had any idea who's watching this right now?" And basically...

• 1:22:33Speaker 00

  Lou was like, okay, this case is absolutely amazing, but the air traffic controller who talked about USAF coming in without any government regulations, they didn't have government approval.

• 1:22:44Jesse Michels?

  USAF is US Air Force.

• 1:22:46Speaker 00

  Exactly. But I kept hearing USAF and I was like, USAF, what's this guy talking? Oh, United States Air Force, the acronym USAF. And, um, and that was one of the aspects that, that Lou really wanted to show, share. To this day, he hasn't told me exactly who's watching it, but I think he was like, like, maybe if there are certain restrictions on people like Lou or Rush, who knows? Like they could show him the movie, show him that it's a compelling case, eyewitness testimony, and then having the flight control, what do you call the radar control officer? The people that monitor the planes that are coming into Brazil? That's what, what do you call that?

• 1:23:19Jesse Michels?

  Air traffic.

• 1:23:20Speaker 00

  Air traffic controller. Okay. So it would have been air traffic controller talked about this, uh, you have to have government approval to land a foreign plane coming into, you know, Brazilian soil. And apparently this plane deviated from going to, uh, Sao Paulo to Campinas. And, and Campinas is where we know, according to all the eyewitnesses, including the guy that drove it, that's where the ET went. So for the, have the United States USAF land in Campinas makes perfectly good sense. Like I said earlier, all the pieces of the puzzle line up, it all lines up perfectly. Like every single person, there's not been one conflicting testimony. There's been a date here and there where it's like, oh, well, maybe it was earlier, maybe it was later, we don't know, but everything else lines up perfectly.

• 1:24:02Jesse Michels?

  And you use the United States Freedom of Information Act.

• 1:24:05Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 1:24:06Jesse Michels?

  To try to get information from the Air Force.

• 1:24:08Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 1:24:09Jesse Michels?

  About flight law.

• 1:24:10Speaker 00

  You saw that. Yeah.

• 1:24:11Jesse Michels?

  And so, and, and, and from the US to Virginia in 1996 and, and, and what came back?

• 1:24:17Speaker 00

  Well, I tried to, I tried to cover all of our bases and, uh, our team, we filed a FOIA and, uh, it's in 2022, I think it was. Yeah. It's probably 2022. And I'd forgotten about it, quite honestly, because it's like years went by. And all of a sudden we get a response from the CIA, which is weird. I don't know. I mean, I'm not a huge FOIA guy, but I mean, CIA?

• 1:24:39Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 1:24:39Speaker 00

  Like really? And it's basically like, you know, cause I asked for records. I was thinking like, okay, so let's just like back up, let's give it like a, a window of 10 days or whatever. So we know the incident happened, a lot of the sightings were on the 20th of January. Why don't we back it up a little bit? Crash a little earlier. So I think it was like January 13th to say January 27th, something like this. Just to cover, you know, any planes that came in from the United States Air Force. Well, it was a 10 day window, two week window that landed in Campinas. Get all those flight records because I was talking to an individual who for a long time was anonymous. And then he was so knowledgeable. I was like, wow, this guy is incredible. Who are you? And he goes, well, actually, my Colonel in the United States Air Force, I was a fighter

• 1:25:22Speaker 00

  pilot, blah, blah, blah. And he has since come forward with us. And he had a really dramatic UFO encounter in 1980 or something like that. But he was giving me guidance on like what to ask and where to ask and all that stuff. And um, blanket statement from the CIA. Basically, that's like either national security classified or exempt from FOIA because of XYZ.

• 1:25:45Jesse Michels?

  Because of this 1949 provision, secrecy provision.

• 1:25:50Speaker 00

  I can't even get a flight record?

• 1:25:51Jesse Michels?

  It's always a tell too, when you request from one agency and then they forward it to the other agency, which the other agency would obviously have, you know, this, this article came out in the Daily Mail about the Office of Global Access run under the CIA around their rapid response, you know, global crash retrieval team. And the article is amazing. Like it mentions, I think Doug Wolf as like the head of the OGA. And so they probably would have been in charge of this sort of thing. So the fact that the Air Force is forwarding this to the CIA is such a tell. CIA runs all foreign intelligence, obviously for the US, such a tell that they were involved in this case. I mean, it's, it's, it's honestly funny. It's like an admission of, of,

• 1:26:33Jesse Michels?

  of, you know, involvement in some ways. Uh, you know, I just interviewed a guy named Dan Sherman, and he wrote a book called Above Black. And he was

• 1:26:42Speaker 00

  Cool title.

• 1:26:42Jesse Michels?

  Amazing title. Insane story. He was a Air Force electronics intelligence. All of his stuff with, you know, his ELINT electronics intelligence career lines up with, like I've, I've had multiple ELINT people come out after this interview I've done with him saying this guy was definitely US Air Force ELINT, like, like just very matter of fact, very intelligent, kind of on the kind of traditional vector of, of signals intelligence. And um, He said that he was part of this secret NSA program and it was called Project Preserve Destiny and it was, he was supposed to do this kind of continuing elent education, you know, in air force, but while he was there, he was taken to this complex, this NSA complex

• 1:27:27Jesse Michels?

  at Maryland.

• 1:27:28Speaker 00

  What year?

• 1:27:29Jesse Michels?

  This was in 1991 or two and he was told to drink this, you know, drink and, uh, and then kind of hook himself up, like match the tones that he would hear with these headphones that this computer would, would play and, and lock into them. And that's how he would kind of gain telepathic access to alien communication. And here, this was really interesting. Independently, this researcher FOIA, the air force said, does, you know, just asking for information about Project Preserve Destiny, his name is Noah Roddick. I've been, Noah, if you're out there, please confirm this because I don't believe he mentioned Dan Sherman's name at all. They forward the, the FOIA request to the NSA.

• 1:28:13Speaker 00

  That's telling right there.

• 1:28:15Jesse Michels?

  Yeah. And the NSA of course gets back and says, you know, we can't confirm or deny the existence or non-existence of this program.

• 1:28:23Speaker 00

  Didn't they say that in my FOIA, right?

• 1:28:24Jesse Michels?

  Yeah, it's the same thing. Yeah. Yeah. But it's such, the bigger tell is you have one agency forwarding it to the other agency. It's like, okay, that, then the second agency was obviously involved. Why wouldn't the agency you sent the initial thing to just respond?

• 1:28:38Speaker 00

  Absolutely.

• 1:28:39Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 1:28:40Speaker 00

  I got, I get, I get emails all the time. People reaching out on all the various platforms.

• 1:28:48Speaker 00

  I got an email from someone and I could pretty much like, I could read it pretty quickly and determine, you know what I mean? Like some experience I've heard, I've had been contacted by alleged witnesses and stuff like that for decades. And you could kind of sift out the crazy pretty quickly. And um, I think it was like a year ago, maybe, maybe a little over a year ago. I got this email and I read it and I just, I time stopped. I was like, oh, oh my gosh. And it was basically someone that claimed, uh, I have the email, I'll show it to you offline. Claimed to have been part of the Virginia operation from Campinas. It was a USAF. He goes, I was on the flight.

• 1:29:28Jesse Michels?

  No way.

• 1:29:29Speaker 00

  Yes, I swear to God.

• 1:29:30Jesse Michels?

  What happened? Did you get in touch?

• 1:29:31Speaker 00

  Well, so I was like, oh my, it was just this moment, like I was, I was overwhelmed with excitement, right? And I gave all the details. I'll, I'll let you read it. And um, I was involved. This has weighed on me for almost 30 years and my family.

• 1:29:46Jesse Michels?

  What?

• 1:29:47Speaker 00

  Yeah. You have to be very careful how you reach out to me. If you do it this way or that way, I'm going to cut all ties. Like it has to be this way, you know, blah, blah, blah. And I was like, I'll, whatever you want. Let's do it. Whatever makes you comfortable. Then I didn't hear anything for about 24 hours, maybe a little longer. And this individual said, this individual said, oh, my systems were hacked and that wasn't me that wrote that.

• 1:30:10Jesse Michels?

  No way.

• 1:30:11Speaker 00

  So.

• 1:30:12Jesse Michels?

  Did you do some follow up and research to figure out who this person was?

• 1:30:15Speaker 00

  So, yes, and, and, but, but when, when this individual reached out and I have a proton email now, which I'll provide to you, you can put it on the screen at some point.

• 1:30:24Jesse Michels?

  Yeah, well, yeah.

• 1:30:25Speaker 00

  Because it was, it was through Google. It was through Gmail. When I thought, well, that was silly. Like, why did you contact me through Gmail?

• 1:30:31Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 1:30:31Speaker 00

  You know, that's easily hacked and it really worried me.

• 1:30:34Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 1:30:34Speaker 00

  When I got it.

• 1:30:35Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 1:30:35Speaker 00

  But I only way, although it was only, he didn't leave me a number. I couldn't find him on Signal like, so I responded just the way he told me to respond. And the feeling I had, certainly from his response later, was that somebody, he got a phone call, something happened, shut this down. I don't know. But it seemed so authentic, like it seemed so, like this guy was really part of it. I don't know if that guy is listening to this message right now in any way, shape or form, like, reach out. You'll provide the proton email that I'll give to you. You can put it on the screen.

• 1:31:05Jesse Michels?

  I'll put it up. Yeah.

• 1:31:05Speaker 00

  Thanks. Yeah.

• 1:31:06Jesse Michels?

  But so, uh, did you do some background research on this person to figure out?

• 1:31:11Speaker 00

  I, I did through some connections of mine, yes.

• 1:31:13Jesse Michels?

  And was he Air Force?

• 1:31:14Speaker 00

  Uh, uh, Marines.

• 1:31:16Jesse Michels?

  He was Marines?

• 1:31:17Speaker 00

  Marines, yeah.

• 1:31:18Jesse Michels?

  Okay. And um,

• 1:31:22Jesse Michels?

  So is it plausible that what he was saying was correct?

• 1:31:26Speaker 00

  Very.

• 1:31:27Jesse Michels?

  Interesting.

• 1:31:27Speaker 00

  Yeah. I mean, Gabe, like, you'll see.

• 1:31:29Jesse Michels?

  Do you find any colleagues of his or anything?

• 1:31:31Speaker 00

  No. And, and, you know, since then, I, I was putting out the program and then in record time, I put out the new cut of Moment of Contact, nine months from concept to completion to delivery, nine months, which is a history. Like, I, I have had so little bandwidth for anything else. There's so many things to follow up on. I'm going back and forth to Brazil.

• 1:31:52Jesse Michels?

  We gotta find this guy. Have you heard of Jonathan Wiegand?

• 1:31:55Speaker 00

  Yes. I interviewed him in the nineties with.

• 1:31:57Jesse Michels?

  Yeah. What am I talking about? You have an interview with Jonathan Wiegand, which Stephen Greer edited down in a weird way.

• 1:32:02Speaker 00

  Yeah. I, I was actually there for that interview and I, I went around the country with Stephen Greer just because I was like, oh, this guy says he's got all this access to people, blah, blah. And I wasn't even prepared for landing cases, little loan crash cases back then. I mean, I heard about Roswell, but, but I met him and he was in his twenties and I was in my twenties and I was like, boy, this guy. And he was so paranoid at the time.

• 1:32:26Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 1:32:26Speaker 00

  This is the nineties.

• 1:32:27Jesse Michels?

  Well, he was beat up.

• 1:32:28Speaker 00

  He was paranoid and he was talking about, like, it was one of the interviews that I was on Stephen Greer's. Anyway, he left an indelible impression on me because I saw behind the scenes how terrified he was. He was debating on whether or not he didn't even come forward at the last possible minute. He talked about, I think either he was in the helicopter or they mentioned the fact they could take him up in the helicopter. It was a very big forest. They could just throw him out anywhere. He would never be seen or heard from again. Like.

• 1:32:54Jesse Michels?

  Well, he went right up to the craft.

• 1:32:56Speaker 00

  He went up to the craft. He said there was like a green liquid dripping out of it.

• 1:32:59Jesse Michels?

  He said there was an arm with, with, I think, three or four fingers, like a, like a biological piece of an entity.

• 1:33:06Speaker 00

  Yeah. And I haven't, I haven't watched the whole interview since I operated the camera for that interview with, with Dr. Greer. And, but he left an indelible impression on me. Like, I was like, shit.

• 1:33:17Jesse Michels?

  Well, he, because he was a Marine, right?

• 1:33:19Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:33:19Jesse Michels?

  And I, that's why I mentioned, maybe the connection with this guy reaching out to you. Maybe there's some.

• 1:33:23Speaker 00

  You know, and the thing is, is like, I wasn't really prepared at the time to process, like, crash retrievals, anything beyond Roswell. I know, it's been a kind of a slow evolution for my personal, like, my personal journey, you know? Because I'd heard about, I heard about, that was my first case where I was like. Oh, this guy's credible, man. I mean, I, I, I felt like he was credible.

• 1:33:43Jesse Michels?

  Seems super credible. This happened in the early nineties. He was a part of Operation Laser Strike in Peru.

• 1:33:48Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:33:48Jesse Michels?

  And this egg shaped craft crashed into.

• 1:33:51Speaker 00

  Dripping.

• 1:33:52Jesse Michels?

  Yes.

• 1:33:52Speaker 00

  Dripping. Something dripping from it and he had telepathic communication with it.

• 1:33:55Speaker 32

  It was, it was buried about a forty five degree angle and into the side of the, uh, into the, into the side of the, the, the cliff there, the, the ridge. It was dripping this syrup like, uh, like syrup viscosity, this liquid, uh, it was everywhere, all down. Everywhere when we went down there, cause there was plants and everything. It was, it was weird. It was a, a, a purplish green color. And it kinda like, like fluctuated, like you couldn't really, when you, you'd look at it one time, then you'd look at it again and it would like. It's almost like it, I don't know if it was like alive and it was just changing, but every time you looked at it, you saw a different shade of, of greenish purple.

• 1:34:32Jesse Michels?

  And the being, the being was, uh, uh, basically sending him very similar signals that, that sent, you know, Ventorelli, the, the neuroscientist. And the, the, the daughters, or the, the, the, sorry, the women.

• 1:34:45Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:34:45Jesse Michels?

  Um, it was saying, uh, help me, help me. And he started to walk towards the craft.

• 1:34:50Speaker 00

  Hmm. And they showed up.

• 1:34:52Jesse Michels?

  And then they, they apprehended him, they beat him up.

• 1:34:54Speaker 00

  People in Virginia are terrified that don't have evidence, just their, just their, the fact that they witnessed the event or drove the creature or whatever aspect, you know, they, they, they, they experienced, they're terrified now. Obviously the ultimate, you know, holy grail of evidence that I'm bending over backwards to get my hands on. And we keep getting close, uh, is film footage.

• 1:35:25Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 1:35:26Speaker 00

  Now I know through experience that if I do get my hands on it and bloody well, we've gotten close. Uh, I got something to worry about. And I've thought about that many times, like, uh.

• 1:35:42Speaker 00

  Could I upload it to a server? Could I send it to 10 different people?

• 1:35:45Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 1:35:46Speaker 00

  How do I deal with that?

• 1:35:47Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 1:35:48Speaker 00

  That scenario. In fact, I had a really recent, I had a really vivid dream just recently.

• 1:35:54Speaker 00

  Really vivid. Like, in fact, when I was watching your show with Joe Rogan.

• 1:35:57Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 1:35:57Speaker 00

  He had, he had that dream.

• 1:35:59Jesse Michels?

  Yes.

• 1:35:59Speaker 00

  That really vivid, I had a really vivid dream where I was in, I was in Virginia and I was in a very crowded area. I think it was like a conference or we're having a screening or something. And lots of activity, lots of, and some gentleman walked up to me and he handed me a thumb drive. And he just slipped it in my pocket and he just looked at me and he kept walking. I was like, shit, I've got, this is, I, this has to be the footage. Right? But in my dream, I was going, what do I do? Like, and then I just felt this dude.

• 1:36:26Jesse Michels?

  Maybe that happens. I just got the chill.

• 1:36:28Speaker 00

  Now I have a target on my back. Like, what do I do? Like, I feel like I'd have a target on my back to get the hell out of there. I need to get it uploaded as quickly as possible. You know, go to a fancy hotel in Sao Paulo. I don't know. But anyway, if there's one thing that I've learned in this field, don't draw quick conclusions. Don't have that knee jerk reaction. Like suspend your judgment, listen to the testimony. Because it's so easy to go, that's impossible. That couldn't possibly have happened without the whole world knowing about it.

• 1:36:57Jesse Michels?

  Well, that's, that's people have an allergic reaction to everything that doesn't fit their kind of mental model.

• 1:37:04Speaker 00

  Mine too.

• 1:37:04Jesse Michels?

  How the world works. But it should always, it should always be follow the evidence.

• 1:37:09Speaker 00

  Absolutely.

• 1:37:10Jesse Michels?

  It should, it should always be like, okay, what actually happened? And then there's beyond that, there's speculation as to what those things are. I often think even UFO researchers jump to the conclusion that it's a thing came from another planet. When, you know, I, we don't know what these things are. That's why they use non-human intelligence, which on the one hand, sometimes seems sanitized PC and part of some controlled disclosure.

• 1:37:34Speaker 00

  Like UAP is supposed to UFO.

• 1:37:35Jesse Michels?

  Like UAP is supposed to UFO and I like UFO better than UAP. You know, it's, I think it's kind of better in old school. But like also, I, I kind of like the NHI thing because it's, we don't know.

• 1:37:45Speaker 00

  We don't know.

• 1:37:46Jesse Michels?

  We don't know. And you, you really just have to follow the evidence specifically. And you have. Great theorists, people like Mike Masters, who talk about them being beings from the future. And maybe they are being, who knows?

• 1:37:56Speaker 00

  I'll be the first one to admit, I have absolutely no idea where they come from, what they want, why they're here.

• 1:38:03Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 1:38:03Speaker 00

  I can speculate. I can look at like.

• 1:38:06Jesse Michels?

  I don't think the government is sure of that either.

• 1:38:08Speaker 00

  Yeah, but you know, and I, okay, over the decades, I've gone, you know, you look at what they do. And that's pretty compelling, but then you look at what they don't do. Because all they'd have to do to, to reveal their presence openly would be to hover over the next Super Bowl. Right? I mean, but they don't do that. They've done some pretty bold moves over the years, like in the 50s, 57, I think in Italy, some big game they were.

• 1:38:37Jesse Michels?

  Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 1:38:39Speaker 00

  You know, they've done some pretty cool stuff. I mean, Phoenix, Arizona was pretty phenomenal. I was when everyone's under the night sky to get a glimpse of the Hell Bob comet and that massive boomerang shaped craft and other crafts as well. Pretty bold, pretty bold stuff. You know, but then you look at Travis Walton and it's like, well, they clearly, if you're, if you're going to take, if you're going to take the account of seven witnesses, you know, at face value, they cared enough about him. He probably got in the way of the propulsion where they grabbed him, fixed him, and then deposited him in the area, in an area on the outskirts of town that was close enough to like, he could get help, but not too close to reveal their, their presence. They cared about him, but had they dropped him off where they picked him up, right?

• 1:39:22Speaker 00

  He wouldn't have made it. It's a very remote area of the Snowflake, Arizona, up in the mountains where that encounter incurred. So I thought about, like, I think about those things. I think about, you know, Socorro, like Officer Lonnie Zamora, like, face contact, you know, locked eyes with one of these beings. They got back in the craft and left, like, they didn't want to have contact. They didn't want to have communication much more than anything, whatever happened when he looked into the eyes of these creatures. So they're in on the secrecy as well.

• 1:39:49Jesse Michels?

  Yes.

• 1:39:49Speaker 00

  Clearly.

• 1:39:50Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 1:39:50Speaker 00

  Right? I mean, you can draw that conclusion pretty definitively, I would say.

• 1:39:53Jesse Michels?

  That many of these experiencers.

• 1:39:54Speaker 00

  Yes, exactly. If you take the, their accounts at face value, that. But there, there is some level of contact. I mean, look at Ruah. I mean, look at 1966, West All, you know, thank you, Shane Ryan and James Rigney. Um, that case is compelling because, you know, once again, it was a school 10:30 in the morning, broad daylight, broad daylight, 300 plus witnesses standing out there watching this disc zip around in the sky with a little airplane falling around it. And then the thing lands and then the kids run over and a handful of the kids see it sitting on the ground within 10 feet. That's a pretty bold move, I would say. Yes. As far as sightings go. Yeah, yeah. In plain sight.

• 1:40:36Speaker 00

  Yeah. Anyway, it's, it's, it's a complex, it's so complex. And I feel, I feel almost like I know less today than I did 30 plus years ago. Although I know the phenomenon's real. I know there's a cover up. I know that the government, I say, no, I feel very comfortable. The government has got very definitive evidence about this, you know, bodies and craft and all that stuff. I just, I don't know what they know. In fact, I just asked somebody who probably I'll remain nameless, but I was talking to somebody that I feel would be in a position to know. And I said, I was like, how many people have the bigger picture?

• 1:41:16Speaker 00

  And this individual is like, and I believe me, I trust this individual. And, um, 10, 10 have the bigger picture. That doesn't mean they have the full scope. Yeah. But yeah. And I said, well, so like, how many people know what you know? He goes, about 30. I was like, so 30 people know what you know. I was like, well, um, is it, I've heard that some people say it's a little scary. Is it scary? And, uh, the individual's like, yeah, I guess it could be a little scary. Yeah. Mm hmm. Yeah. It's a little scary. And I'm dying to know, right? You know, maybe with the information they have isn't correct. Well, who knows?

• 1:42:00Speaker 00

  I looked over and Leslie Keane was watching me have this conversation. You know, this is recently and I see her looking at me across the room and she's like looking at me. She knows she goes, I know that look on your face, James, when I see you locked like you're, you really want to know something. She goes, I didn't want to interfere. And I'm like just about, so I was like, well, what, well, um, it's like, well, what, what, uh, what's the intent? You know, and then somebody like butts in and hey, you know, I've always wanted to meet you. And I'm sitting there like, oh, like, I don't know if I would have gotten it or not, but according to this individual that, that it's not like I didn't, I didn't have to fear for my safety kind of thing. And this could be all wrong. I don't know.

• 1:42:45Speaker 00

  But, but that the intent was a little scary. A little scary.

• 1:42:49Jesse Michels?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:42:50Speaker 00

  Well, what do I know? I don't, I don't know.

• 1:42:52Jesse Michels?

  It's hard to say.

• 1:42:53Speaker 00

  Jesse, I don't know.

• 1:42:55Jesse Michels?

  I don't, I don't either, you know, and that's, that felt like the framing of the age of disclosure. Like there, you know, that there was some sort of, um, you know, they were prepping the battle space and they care about our nuclear assets because it's just like we would do ISR on a foreign adversary or whatever. You want to know what they're working with? I don't believe that. I don't, I don't. Um, and that's not to say, you know, if you're, you're a hammer, everything's supposed to look like a nail and stuff. Your job is American national security. Like, you know, maybe that's the way you're supposed to orient yourself towards this, but like I, I don't, I don't believe that. And I don't, I don't think that should be people's a priori biases going in, especially if that's their first touch point towards, you know, the phenomenon.

• 1:43:39Jesse Michels?

  That's, that's not my personal belief. And yeah, I mean, look, you just spoke to, you know, Talaventorelli and you know, this is the, this is like, this thing was like an angel and it was higher consciousness than ours and it wanted us to know how special we are. And even that could be a form of deception. You know, it's always like, you know, you guys are doing harm via like, you know, these environmental catastrophes, that could be some sort of deception where they're trying to clamp down and control us. Who knows? But I think, I think knowing that they're.

• 1:44:09Jesse Michels?

  Bad somehow. I mean, this, this thing's been, whatever's been going on, it's been going on for a long time. I think well before Roswell, well, well before Magenta in the 30s.

• 1:44:18Speaker 00

  Look at, uh, Wonders in the Sky by Jacques Vallée.

• 1:44:21Jesse Michels?

  That's a great example, yes.

• 1:44:22Speaker 00

  Incredible.

• 1:44:23Jesse Michels?

  Yeah, or Passport to Magonia.

• 1:44:24Speaker 00

  Passport to Magonia, exactly.

• 1:44:26Jesse Michels?

  So, so this has been going on for a long, long time. So I, I just, the idea that there's going to be some sort of rapid juncture or break in their orientation towards us, where they start to view us as some sort of big threat. You know, clear, I, I do think they do care about our nuclear stuff and are trying to enforce some sort of homeostasis of the earth, protect it by-

• 1:44:48Speaker 00

  Perhaps it could affect their reality.

• 1:44:49Jesse Michels?

  Yeah, it could affect them somehow, but I-

• 1:44:51Speaker 00

  Interesting.

• 1:44:52Jesse Michels?

  But I, the, I mean, in that you'll hear things like, oh, they activated the nuclear sequence. Well, guess what? They turned it off after they activated it, you know? They always turn it off.

• 1:45:01Speaker 00

  In most cases, they deactivate it.

• 1:45:03Jesse Michels?

  In most cases, they deactivate it.

• 1:45:05Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:45:05Jesse Michels?

  So, yeah, I don't know if I buy that, but, um, I'm open, but I, you know.

• 1:45:10Speaker 00

  The one line that I always remember, and I, I actually think I, I think I got this with Tim Coleman, I was doing out of the blue. I should watch Out of the Blue again, it's been a while. But, uh, Robert Salas, former launch control officer, I just love this line, and I'm sure a lot of you have heard it, but

• 1:45:27Speaker 00

  I was like, well, wow, it's amazing, these, you know, these craft we're seeing over the base and these nuclear installation. It turned the peak of the Cold War, blah, blah, blah, blah. And he's like, yeah. He's very calm, and I could see exactly why he was a launch control officer, because he was very measured and every word was carefully crafted. And he was just calm. You know, the kind of guy that you want in your corner when all hell's breaking loose, right? Because he's going to be very methodical, measured, and like, not panic and do the wrong. And he's like, yeah, you know, James', uh, message was, uh, pretty clear in my book. It's almost like taking matches out of the hands of a baby. You know, I thought, wow, that's pretty cool.

• 1:46:05Jesse Michels?

  Whoa, yeah, yeah, yeah. It is cool and and and solace.

• 1:46:09Speaker 00

  It's reassuring a little bit.

• 1:46:10Jesse Michels?

  It is. And you know what? He he's not alone. Most of those guys who are in Bob Hastings amazing book, UFOs and nukes. Say that that's what they, you know, they're like, we don't know, but we think that the message is, you know, you guys are playing with fire.

• 1:46:25Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:46:25Jesse Michels?

  And not, you know, we're trying to deactivate your tip of the spear defenses against us. Not that we're trying to dominate.

• 1:46:34Speaker 35

  We're talking between September of sixty six and March of sixty seven. We lost thirty missiles to UFO activity.

• 1:46:47Jesse Michels?

  It's wild. Yeah.

• 1:46:49Speaker 35

  Thirty.

• 1:46:49Jesse Michels?

  Thirty. That's pretty, pretty insane. And I do think what that guy said to you as far as, I think, I think there is a tip of the spear as far as government knowledge on this stuff. But I think if if, you know, maybe the biggest misconception of all is that they understand all of it.

• 1:47:06Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:47:06Jesse Michels?

  You know, I think they're learning from you just as much as you're learning from them. I really do that.

• 1:47:10Speaker 00

  It was really funny.

• 1:47:11Jesse Michels?

  Yeah, go for it. Yeah.

• 1:47:12Speaker 00

  Well, I was at this event and and and I was with Leslie and there were all these men in suits. And she's like, hey, there's there's guys over in the agency and, you know, I pretty much knew that, you know, and they're very nice. And I I didn't assume anything. I was like, oh, yeah, you know, and I've been investigating this case, you know, in Virginia. They're like, oh, yeah, no, we know exactly what you've been doing.

• 1:47:34Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 1:47:34Speaker 00

  Not in a threatening way, but like, we follow, oh, yeah, we're following this really closely, like.

• 1:47:39Jesse Michels?

  For sure.

• 1:47:40Speaker 00

  Like, you know, isn't that funny?

• 1:47:42Jesse Michels?

  Yeah, no, I get I get that all the time.

• 1:47:44Speaker 00

  Of course you do.

• 1:47:45Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 1:47:45Speaker 00

  And I've had people on the inside ask about you.

• 1:47:48Jesse Michels?

  Oh, there you go.

• 1:47:49Speaker 00

  Like, what do you think about, what do you think about this guy Jesse Michaels? I was like, he's fucking amazing. That guy's putting the pieces of the puzzle together that I just like, whoa. I'm taking notes on the sideline. That's why I mentioned you on Joe Rogan, because I was like, this guy earned it.

• 1:48:03Jesse Michels?

  That was the nicest. Plug I think I will ever get.

• 1:48:06Speaker 00

  You earned that, brother.

• 1:48:08Jesse Michels?

  That means so much to me.

• 1:48:09Speaker 00

  You earned it. It came from here.

• 1:48:11Jesse Michels?

  Well, I know it did. I know it did. And I got emotional just watching it.

• 1:48:15Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:48:16Jesse Michels?

  Because that was like 10 minutes or something. You're a rock star.

• 1:48:21Speaker 00

  And I don't.

• 1:48:21Jesse Michels?

  By the end of it, because Joe didn't know me then. And he was just like, okay, I guess you love this Jesse guy. Thanks, Jane.

• 1:48:28Speaker 00

  Because I've been watching you work and I'm like, this guy's operating on another level. Like, you're just incredible, the way you're putting the pieces of the puzzle together and like, doing deep dives into all these different aspects. I was like, whoa, like, this is incredible.

• 1:48:41Jesse Michels?

  Well, I'm standing on the shoulders of giants and, and, and there's no way, you know, like, you were making movies while you were painting fences.

• 1:48:50Speaker 00

  Yes, digging ditches, branding rebar, pouring cement, painting houses, parking cars.

• 1:48:56Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 1:48:57Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:48:57Jesse Michels?

  So like, I think it's really easy to post de-stigmatization of the whole topic. New York Times article in 2017, all this stuff, you know, it's easy to make these YouTube videos. So, you know, I, I, I, I think, you know, all of us who are doing that owe you a huge debt. Oh, people like Jeremy Corbell and Ross Colthart a huge debt. And so, yeah, no, it's, uh, thank you for saying that, but, um,

• 1:49:23Speaker 00

  Oh, yeah.

• 1:49:23Jesse Michels?

  And there are people like me too, like UAP.

• 1:49:25Speaker 00

  I get so many people ask me to do that and I don't, and I, so many people, oh, I heard you're going on. I always try to keep it secretive. I heard you're going on, like, can you please, you know, da, da, da. It's like, you earned it. It's like, when you called me and you said, thanks so much. I was like, dude, don't thank me, man. You earned that one. Like, yeah.

• 1:49:41Jesse Michels?

  That's so bad.

• 1:49:42Speaker 00

  I meant, I meant it. Yeah.

• 1:49:43Jesse Michels?

  That really, that really meant the, the world to me. And, and Joe's become a good friend.

• 1:49:47Speaker 00

  That's incredible. When I saw him on your show, I was like, my God.

• 1:49:50Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 1:49:50Speaker 00

  That's so cool.

• 1:49:51Jesse Michels?

  That was the most surreal moment.

• 1:49:53Speaker 00

  So cool.

• 1:49:53Jesse Michels?

  It was so epic. Cause he, he's also.

• 1:49:55Speaker 00

  He respects you too. Like, he's got tremendous respect for you.

• 1:49:58Jesse Michels?

  Oh, I don't know.

• 1:49:59Speaker 00

  It's incredible.

• 1:50:00Jesse Michels?

  Yeah, it's, it's so nice. Maybe she, both of you should aim higher, but.

• 1:50:04Speaker 00

  It's nice to like, feel appreciated. Everybody wants to feel appreciated. And, you know, one of the things I'd love to say right here and right now is like, you know, I really like to see. More kindness between fellow, everyone really.

• 1:50:20Jesse Michels?

  I agree.

• 1:50:20Speaker 00

  Especially with the people you disagree with.

• 1:50:22Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 1:50:23Speaker 00

  You know?

• 1:50:24Jesse Michels?

  And less, less impugning people's motives and thinking that they're bad faith actors.

• 1:50:29Speaker 00

  Absolutely.

• 1:50:30Jesse Michels?

  Because, and there are all these people who I, I went into this world thinking, oh, but they're part of the insider crew.

• 1:50:38Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:50:38Jesse Michels?

  Or whatever. And then I'd meet them and I'd realize that like, yeah, that maybe they know a few like kind of spooky-ish people or whatever, but they're really just trying to figure it out and they're trying to get the information. You know, a good example of that is actually Tom DeLonge.

• 1:50:51Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:50:51Jesse Michels?

  Where like, you know, I, I, you know, recently.

• 1:50:54Speaker 00

  Remember when he went on Rogan?

• 1:50:55Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 1:50:56Speaker 00

  And Rogan was, it was too much.

• 1:50:57Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 1:50:57Speaker 00

  It was too much too soon.

• 1:50:59Jesse Michels?

  Well, well.

• 1:51:00Speaker 00

  Cause he was probably right, right?

• 1:51:01Jesse Michels?

  He was right about a lot of stuff, I think, but he, he, it was too much where he wasn't in a position to, he could like say a high level thing and then Rogan obviously wants to get low level. He wants to know all the details.

• 1:51:13Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:51:13Jesse Michels?

  And then he would say like, I, I can't really fully, you know, tell you, like, I'll tell you after the show sort of thing. And I was like, oh, I can't wait for the show to end.

• 1:51:20Speaker 00

  Right.

• 1:51:21Jesse Michels?

  But, um, you know, I find him to be extremely earnest and cool and smart and have like some sort of working worldview around this thing that, uh, you know, seems to be pretty coherent. And, and I think a lot of his, you know, uh, engagement with people on the inside were his own just really vigilante desire to like get a lot of this stuff out in, in any way he could. And he has some interesting stories that I hope he tells at some point. I want to shift gears for a second.

• 1:51:49Speaker 00

  Yes, sir.

• 1:51:49Jesse Michels?

  Cause you have just a, a compendium of incredible historical interviews and interactions.

• 1:51:56Speaker 00

  Yes, sir.

• 1:51:56Jesse Michels?

  With some of the people who are the most important people in UFO history. Uh, I want to talk about Philip J. Corso.

• 1:52:03Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 1:52:03Jesse Michels?

  You have maybe the last interview with him alive.

• 1:52:07Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:52:07Jesse Michels?

  Uh, he obviously wrote The Day After Roswell.

• 1:52:09Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 1:52:10Jesse Michels?

  Um, he was, uh, head of the, the Pentagon's, uh, Foreign Technology Desk.

• 1:52:15Speaker 00

  Hmm. He was a witness to the creatures.

• 1:52:17Jesse Michels?

  Maybe.

• 1:52:18Speaker 00

  Well, he says he was.

• 1:52:19Jesse Michels?

  He says he was, but in The Day After Roswell, that was also co-written by William J. Burns.

• 1:52:23Speaker 00

  Right.

• 1:52:24Jesse Michels?

  And that might've been.

• 1:52:25Speaker 00

  But no, but I interviewed him and he told me about when he was taken in at Fort.

• 1:52:29Jesse Michels?

  Me?

• 1:52:30Speaker 00

  It was, okay. So they started the journey in Roswell by truck, I believe it was. And some of the debris went to right pat on an airplane, but I think the bodies, according to Corso.

• 1:52:40Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 1:52:41Speaker 00

  There was a stop along the way. In any case, he said that he'd heard that there were some bodies and they went in and they opened up the caskets and he saw the body from the Roswell.

• 1:52:49Jesse Michels?

  No way.

• 1:52:49Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:52:51Speaker 26

  In early July, 1947, Corso was post-duty officer in Fort Riley, Kansas. There, he claims to have seen a body transported from an airbase in New Mexico.

• 1:53:01Speaker 36

  I went back and there was five crates there, like five or six, I think it was five. I lifted one up and here's this body there and floating in fluid. First I thought it was a child because it was small. Then I looked at his head and all. This was only happened a matter of seconds. Then I put the end back down and the head was different, arms were spindly, the body was gray. So right at that moment, I figured, I don't know what this thing is. So like an intelligence business, I just better put it in back of my head here and wait to maybe in the future I get collaboration so I can evaluate what it is.

• 1:53:44Jesse Michels?

  And he said that in your interview?

• 1:53:46Speaker 00

  Yes. It was really funny, actually, because when I went to the 50th anniversary of the Roswell case that took place in 1997 in Roswell, New Mexico, and it was a scene because we had like members of Congress, there was Congressman Schiff, I think it was, who was saying like, I don't know what's going on here, but I've been getting, you know, I've been getting, I've been getting like stiff armed by the airport, you know, and I'm making inquiries and why would you fly, you know, a weather balloon under armed guard, like, you know.

• 1:54:18Jesse Michels?

  And he noted that all of the Roswell stuff was deleted.

• 1:54:21Speaker 00

  Oh, yeah, yeah.

• 1:54:21Jesse Michels?

  All the archival material in the government.

• 1:54:23Speaker 00

  And they sent him to an agency knowing that agency didn't have anything. And this was all happening, more people were coming forward, and then boom, this guy, you know, Philip Corso, who apparently, according to him, and he told me this directly from his mouth to my ears, he said that they rushed the book to print with William Burns because they wanted to make the, they wanted to ride the coattails of the 50th anniversary of Roswell and all the attention it was getting, and that there were a lot of discrepancies in the book that he was upset about, that, you know, this is what he told me. And, and I. Uh, when he came to Roswell, there was a flurry of activity in one of the hangars and he was surrounded by all these news reporters. Oh my Lord, you should have seen it was a feeding

• 1:55:06Speaker 00

  frenzy like, and I'm looking at him and I'm like, I gotta get, I gotta get an on camera statement, but I was a little kid with a camera. And I was like, you know what? I'm just gonna elbow my way in there. I don't care. And I fought my way in there and I got my camera and I asked them a couple of questions. In the movie, I'll give it to you. You can show it. And, um, and then the next day I found out where he was staying, what hotel he was in. And I, I just like, you know what? I went to the reception. I said, oh, I've got a meeting with Philip Corso. Can you, I just forgot what room he's in. Would you mind? You know? And I went to the room and, um, oh, we were expecting you like, you know, and, uh, oh, really? Like, I was like, so we sit down and we do an hour and a half long interview, whatever it was, I don't, hour, hour and a half.

• 1:55:48Speaker 00

  Got a lot of stuff out of him. Again, I'm happy to provide whatever you want. And, um, and then Michael Hessman arrives, German guy, and he was late and he was all sweaty and flustered. And apparently he had scheduled the interview that I got with Corso, but he showed up late. I showed up, I was in the right place at the right time. So I got this sit down interview with Corso when Michael Hessman should have had it. And as it turns out, he was all flustered and he was late and he had no sound gear. So I gave him my sound gear. He said, I got about, I would say it's about an hour and a half. And he talked about why he's coming forward, because it was grandkids and he's like, I'm old, I'm gonna die soon, but you know, I want the world to know

• 1:56:29Speaker 00

  this thing happened. I was a witness. I saw. And I remember thinking, because there was a lot of controversy after he died and he was no longer in a position to kind of correct the, the, the record, I guess. But I believed him. I believed him. I looked him in the eyes and I really did believe him. And I think I still believe him to this day. And I think he got a really bad rap. And maybe it was too much too soon. I don't know. But he told me, I'm coming forward for my grandchildren. And he goes, I saw the bodies. Like, he looked like a little kid, big head, big eye, you know, all the typical spindly arms, spindly legs.

• 1:57:01Jesse Michels?

  How many fingers?

• 1:57:02Speaker 00

  Didn't, I don't remember that part.

• 1:57:04Jesse Michels?

  Because, you know, it's interesting. You say in Virginia, there were three, three.

• 1:57:09Speaker 00

  Three digits, yeah.

• 1:57:10Jesse Michels?

  And, and it was, you know, on the, the paper, it's drawn, you know, the three fingers or whatever. You recreate it and you know, I've seen beings in Peru that are skeletons with three fingers, the three toes and three, three fingers. And they carbon date to between 800 and 1700 years ago. And one of them has a tridactyl fetus inside of it. So there's inheritance between.

• 1:57:33Speaker 00

  What does tridactyl mean?

• 1:57:34Jesse Michels?

  Tridactyl means three fingers. So, so one of them has a.

• 1:57:37Speaker 00

  A digit, right, okay.

• 1:57:39Jesse Michels?

  A fetus with three fingers and three toes in it.

• 1:57:44Speaker 15

  Wow.

• 1:57:47Jesse Michels?

  They all have DNA associated with them and further testing is being done right now. So I'm like, okay, both of these things are happening in South America. Is that just a skeleton of what, and they have elongated heads, but they didn't undergo any head binding. They don't have any of the stress fractures involved in head binding.

• 1:58:04Speaker 00

  Wow.

• 1:58:05Jesse Michels?

  Super weird.

• 1:58:07Speaker 15

  Varginha, Brazil, those things had three fingers and three toes. So the question is like. And they saw footprints too, in that case.

• 1:58:14Speaker 00

  And, and, and didn't Dave Grush say that some of the craft recovered were archaeological digs or something like this?

• 1:58:20Jesse Michels?

  He said, Bob Lazar said that. But David Grush said that the, that the skeletons that I saw in Peru looked like things that he's seen in classified settings.

• 1:58:32Speaker 00

  Wow.

• 1:58:33Jesse Michels?

  So, so that could be the same thing that happened in Virginia, that, that being, and we could have literal mummies of those beings for all we know.

• 1:58:41Speaker 00

  Bigelow, I remember I met with Bigelow, I got contacted by him in 2009 and I don't think I was ready for what he told me at the time. And I'm quite honestly, I don't know if I'm still not ready.

• 1:58:51Jesse Michels?

  What did he say?

• 1:58:52Speaker 00

  Well, it was funny actually, because he talked about the complexities of disclosure. He reached out to me through his secretary, I still have the email, and they said, Mr. Bigelow wants to congratulate you on a job well done for, I know what I saw. And that's cool. I looked up Bigelow and I kind of knew who, you know, I was like, oh, wow. Would Mr. Bigelow like to get together? You know, yes, he would actually. And so we arranged a time where I would go to his house and this is like 2009 probably. And. We had lunch together at his house in Las Vegas and he, he starts telling me about the complexities of disclosure. Do you understand kid? Like, you know, the implications and they're

• 1:59:33Speaker 00

  so vast impacts on organized religion and this and that. And I honestly, I hadn't really thought of the complexities of disclosure. And I was like, yeah, cool. You know, and he's talking about that. And then he goes, he goes, uh, yeah, and they're walking among us.

• 1:59:49Speaker 00

  And I said, what? And he goes, what do you mean? You know, he goes, I mean, exactly that. They're, they're walking among us. No, no.

• 2:00:01Speaker 00

  I think I took that and I put it in the back of my head because I was like, you know what? That's just crazy. Like you gotta be kidding me, you know? At the time, I, I don't know. I took it with a grain of salt.

• 2:00:11Speaker 00

  Uh, maybe they are. I don't know. I mean, it would be pretty funny if they were because, you know, here we are looking out across the cosmos for any sign of intelligent life, you know, with all the various NASA programs, you know, looking for water or whatever, oxygen or atmosphere, you know, all these various planets. And it would be funny if they're like right here, you know? And maybe they are, you know? Maybe they are.

• 2:00:38Jesse Michels?

  Yeah. Well, they, the, Hal Puthoff always talks about the UFOs engaging in what he calls signature management, where they control what they sort of look like or appear to be in optical and radar and that sort of thing. And so maybe that's happening with the beings themselves. And so who knows?

• 2:00:56Speaker 00

  One thing that I've learned over the decades is suspend judgment, man. At this point, anything's possible. I don't know what's going on. I would love to know what's going on.

• 2:01:10Jesse Michels?

  I don't either.

• 2:01:10Speaker 00

  And I, and I want you guys to understand, like, I don't put something out into the public. If I don't believe it's highly likely that it happened, I'm not out there just trying to, I really don't. I care about integrity. I care about perception. I-

• 2:01:25Jesse Michels?

  You're the opposite of a grifter. A grifter doesn't start valeting cars and then makes the thing on the side because he's so passionate about it. What are you talking about? When there is no market for the thing in the early 2000s.

• 2:01:38Speaker 00

  Once I pay back my investors, I always put my films on free platforms, like free.

• 2:01:43Jesse Michels?

  You just told me before you started rolling, your dream is to buy the phenomenon back. So how are you a grifter? You want to buy your own footage back because that feels more authentic. It's crazy. Yeah, anyway, so that's just ridiculous. No, but it is these things, same with this thing in Peru with these mummies, like sometimes when the thing is staring you in the face, you think it's too good to be true, but maybe, maybe it's just, you know, Jim Semivan, who's very high up at the CIA, he said, said, he says, like, most of this stuff is a personal experience. Says, most of this stuff is just hidden in plain sight. And that's the conclusion that I've come to. Again, despite my-

• 2:02:22Speaker 00

  You're so funny, wouldn't it?

• 2:02:23Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 2:02:24Speaker 00

  Right?

• 2:02:24Jesse Michels?

  What? That it's just, it's just there. Yeah.

• 2:02:27Speaker 00

  Yeah, I was at the airport a couple of years ago and I was flying to Arizona for a conference or something and I get up to the gate and I was like, shit, I left my sunglasses in the car. It's like, I can't leave without my sunglasses. It's like, ah, I had to go back through security. I go all the way out of the car. Ah, my sunglasses aren't there. I was like, crap, guess where they were?

• 2:02:46Jesse Michels?

  Where?

• 2:02:46Speaker 00

  On my face.

• 2:02:47Jesse Michels?

  Yeah. They're right there. Yeah, sometimes it's just right staring you.

• 2:02:52Speaker 00

  Right there.

• 2:02:53Jesse Michels?

  But what is, did you, did you probe Bigelow more and you say, what did you, you know, what'd you mean exactly by-

• 2:02:59Speaker 00

  I talked about the implications. Well, I did talk about the implications of disclosure, the complications of disclosure a little bit, but in terms of them walking among us, I wasn't ready for it. I honestly wasn't. I was like, you know, who's this guy? I don't know, man. I, I couldn't dismiss it entirely just because of his position. He's probably invested more money in research with NIDS and OSAP and ATIP and all the various different people that he's worked with. So I couldn't like, I didn't categorically dismiss it, but I kind of put it, I compartmentalized it and put it in the back of my head and- But as time went by and I learned more about the phenomenon, I started thinking, shit, man, maybe he's right. Maybe they are right here, you know, walking among us.

• 2:03:44Speaker 00

  Wouldn't that be, wouldn't that be funny? You know? It's like, you know, it's right under our noses. There it is in plain sight. And that seems to make more sense to me. Cause a lot of people go, you know, and I get people go, oh, well, you're just, you know, you're concluding, you know, the texture of terrestrial. I was like, no, actually I didn't say that. And I've never said that. I really don't know what they are.

• 2:04:05Jesse Michels?

  Well, with a guy who is transporting this being in this, you know, in the military cargo driver or whatever, he goes.

• 2:04:13Speaker 00

  I'll show you the email.

• 2:04:14Jesse Michels?

  I want to see that email.

• 2:04:16Speaker 00

  Yeah, sorry, go ahead.

• 2:04:16Jesse Michels?

  But he says, uh, he says it was, you know, it was told to him like there was somebody was questioning him, what'd you see? And he says, I don't know what I saw, you know, it was like a burnt human being or something. Cause he was trying to be coy as if he didn't see anything. The guy goes, it was supernatural.

• 2:04:32Speaker 30

  They focused on me with this older military guy. He looked me right in the eyes and asked what I had seen.

• 2:04:44Speaker 30

  I said, I think it was a burnt man or something. He said, Monsieur, say, no, you didn't see this. See, I don't know if he thought I was trying to deceive him, you know? Like he knows, but he just doesn't want to talk about it.

• 2:05:04Speaker 30

  It was then that he stated that what I had witnessed was a particular thing. Super natural.

• 2:05:15Speaker 00

  Yeah, super natural.

• 2:05:16Jesse Michels?

  Supernatural, yeah.

• 2:05:18Speaker 00

  I was very funny in the edit room because I, I edit my own movies. And that line just really stuck with me and I really wanted it to, I really wanted it to, to hit with the audience. And so I, I had, I did all the subtitles in the film and I did it at my pacing because I'm a slow reader and I always frustrates me when I'm watching a film with subtitles when they come on too fast. I'm like, no, you're going too fast. Slow down. So I tried to like do one line whenever I could, two lines most primarily one line. And when it came to super, cause he goes, this is military X talking about with the general meeting that he had with the general after he'd driven this creature from various places, humanitas, ultimately campinas. And he's like, uh, he goes, no, no, that's not what you saw.

• 2:06:03Speaker 00

  What you saw was super natural. And so I put super and then a beat later, natural, as he said it on the text. Super natural. And then the other guy that I worked with, Boris, he changed it to have them both come on at the same time. And I went, no, no, no, no, no, Boris, that was intentional. I want that word cause it's memorable, right?

• 2:06:22Jesse Michels?

  Yes.

• 2:06:22Speaker 00

  It's a, it's a cool, it's a moment in the movie. Super natural.

• 2:06:25Jesse Michels?

  Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Sounds like a shampoo commercial.

• 2:06:29Speaker 00

  Right. Yeah, exactly.

• 2:06:31Jesse Michels?

  Yeah. Yeah. I mean, yeah, it's sort of remarkable and, and we, we don't know, you know, what these beings are. And you know, even on the, on the, I keep going back to these Peruvian mummies, but they had these like osmium and cadmium implants like on their heads. And you know, I was just, I was playing around. I was asking G P, chat G P T, you know, what these things might be adaptive for. And it's like, maybe they could create this local electromagnetic field, which would define how the beings are perceived or like modulate, you know?

• 2:07:00Speaker 00

  In other words, affect the environment around them.

• 2:07:03Jesse Michels?

  Yeah. Yeah.

• 2:07:04Speaker 00

  Crazy.

• 2:07:04Jesse Michels?

  It's crazy. Who knows?

• 2:07:06Speaker 00

  I remember, what's his name? Uh, I'll think of it a second. He was a NASA employee. He analyzed photographs, Maccabee? Was it something Maccabee? Bruce Maccabee?

• 2:07:21Jesse Michels?

  Yeah, Bruce Maccabee. FBI, UFOs and the FBI or something.

• 2:07:25Speaker 00

  Yeah. But he primarily did photographic analysis. And he said to me years ago, cause I was like, wow, all the pictures blurry, like, ah, you know, and people would criticize that all the time. And he was like, if they're not blurry and they have a defined clear edge, this is 20 plus years ago. He goes, that's when you should be suspicious because there's some kind of weird field around the propulsion, we feel that causes a slight distortion. And so you'll always get slightly fuzzy edges and all that stuff. I was like, wow.

• 2:07:56Jesse Michels?

  Yep.

• 2:07:56Speaker 00

  Wow, that's interesting, you know? And those coming from a guy PhD like, you know?

• 2:08:02Jesse Michels?

  You have these lensing effects from the gravitational

• 2:08:04Speaker 00

  Yeah. It was explained really well in Age of Disclosure, which I thought, you know?

• 2:08:08Jesse Michels?

  Yeah. I mean, red shifts or blue shifts.

• 2:08:10Speaker 00

  Yeah. And, you know, tip my hat to, to Dan Farah and Lou Elizondo. That was an exquisite accomplishment. Everyone can criticize how a film's put together, but trust me as a filmmaker myself. Uh, I think that's going to help move the needle. I, I was very impressed, you know, people like Rubio and, and James Clapper and all coming forward and putting their necks out. So, um, I'm, I'm excited about the times. And I feel like moment of contact, new revelations of alien encounters. I don't know, the timing seems to be perfect because like Dan Farah's film, Age of Disclosure with Lou Elizondo is kind of everything that our film isn't, and our film is everything their film isn't, right? So you make these extraordinary claims, you know?

• 2:08:53Speaker 00

  And then you're, we're providing an extraordinary case.

• 2:08:57Jesse Michels?

  Yes.

• 2:08:57Speaker 00

  Because this is an example.

• 2:08:59Jesse Michels?

  One's top down and one's bottoms up.

• 2:09:01Speaker 00

  Do you know what I'm saying?

• 2:09:01Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 2:09:02Speaker 00

  So I think that there, it's a really good, I think the timing and the pressure that I felt to get, because I didn't know when Age of Disclosure was going to come out. I'd heard it, get, period, it was delayed, whatever reasons. And so the fact that it came out and then like, you know, six weeks later, we're dropping this one. I think the timing is going to be perfect.

• 2:09:17Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 2:09:17Speaker 00

  I think the stars are starting to align and I think that we can really get some traction in terms of like, and I think, you know, regardless of what you think about the current administration, I think if ever there was a time for full disclosure.

• 2:09:28Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 2:09:29Speaker 00

  I think it's more likely to happen with him than anybody else.

• 2:09:31Jesse Michels?

  Yeah, no, I, I agree. He's, he's more likely to do something out of left field.

• 2:09:36Speaker 00

  Rip the bandaid off.

• 2:09:37Jesse Michels?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 2:09:38Speaker 00

  Yeah, because Biden administration, I was so disappointed. Like Rush came out during the Biden administration. It's like, you don't even address it?

• 2:09:46Jesse Michels?

  Well, but, but the Biden administration, the problem with the Biden administration, okay? Right now, maybe. You know, you could argue that Trump has too much agency or something with Biden. He wasn't, it was a headless administration. It was literally, the whole thing was just a bureaucracy. Because you have, you have a guy who has had dementia.

• 2:10:07Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 2:10:07Jesse Michels?

  Who, and so then you're like, who's actually running? Oh, is it Jake Sullivan, maybe his chief of staff? And then like, what's he up to? We didn't elect him. Like, what's the deal?

• 2:10:15Speaker 00

  The most dismissive.

• 2:10:16Jesse Michels?

  Nothing's gonna get done in that context.

• 2:10:18Speaker 00

  I felt it was the most dismissive administration in history on the phenomenon.

• 2:10:22Jesse Michels?

  On everything, on everything. If you believe that America is headed in the right direction, then that was the right admin. This, you got a lot of volatility, maybe, but it's like some sort of hail Mary where you might get some movement or something.

• 2:10:36Speaker 00

  But I just feel like it's gonna happen in this administration more than any other. I really do.

• 2:10:40Jesse Michels?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 2:10:41Speaker 00

  And I'm, and we're gonna be doing.

• 2:10:43Jesse Michels?

  Well, you have all these truth and transparency initiatives. I mean, one interesting thread is like Tulsi and Clapper kinda hate each other. I don't know if you know this.

• 2:10:52Speaker 00

  I didn't know that.

• 2:10:52Jesse Michels?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah. So Tulsi's the current DNI and like they're going after Clapper because.

• 2:10:57Speaker 00

  She seems pretty amazing.

• 2:10:58Jesse Michels?

  I love Tulsi.

• 2:10:59Speaker 00

  Yeah, she seems like amazing. She seems.

• 2:11:01Jesse Michels?

  I'm a fan. I think she's great. I think she's, she's an honest, earnest actor. I think she's very brave and yeah, I, I, you know, pray for her.

• 2:11:09Speaker 00

  It takes unconventional to get this stuff done.

• 2:11:12Jesse Michels?

  It does. So, but she doesn't like Clapper because she says that Clapper was involved in Russiagate. And this whole kind of, you know, planting stuff on Trump's calling it a Russian asset or whatever. So I guess what I would say to the current DNI is like, okay, like, do you want like Clapper? Or any of these guys eating your lunch on this very important issue? Or do you wanna get in front of the issue?

• 2:11:37Speaker 00

  Why would you want these guys to get credit when you can get the credit?

• 2:11:41Jesse Michels?

  Exactly.

• 2:11:42Speaker 00

  I mean, honestly, you would go down, hey, look, I interviewed Senator Harry Reid.

• 2:11:48Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 2:11:48Speaker 00

  And love the guy, hate him, whatever. He was, he spearheaded something that was incredible, right?

• 2:11:53Jesse Michels?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 2:11:54Speaker 00

  And he stood up for Lou Elizondo and I'm very grateful for that. But I asked him this question, I recently unearthed it because I didn't put it in the phenomenon. And I said, like, what would you tell?

• 2:12:04Speaker 00

  Whatever president it was, what would you tell the president of the United States about this topic? And he just goes, don't be afraid. Don't be afraid to take it on head on. Like, don't be afraid to admit that this stuff is real. Like, I think that's really important because everyone that I've interviewed, including the governor, including senators and members of Congress, it was the best thing to their career. They thought it was going to be the opposite effect, right? But in actuality, and I even interviewed the former governor of New Mexico, who was a Democrat, Richardson, and he goes, you know, quite honestly, James, one of the few things that I ever did in my political career was looking into the UFO phenomenon, particularly the Roswell crash. He goes, you wouldn't believe the level of support I had from both parties.

• 2:12:47Jesse Michels?

  No, it's, it's, you look at.

• 2:12:49Speaker 00

  One of the only bipartisan things.

• 2:12:50Jesse Michels?

  You look at Luna Burchett Burleson, like, all these guys.

• 2:12:55Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 2:12:56Jesse Michels?

  Are, it's become their, like, number one issue, and they are going on podcast tours. They're talking about it constantly. Yeah, and they're all pumped.

• 2:13:05Speaker 00

  Yeah. So Democrats and Republicans working together is so beautiful to see. Thank God they're working for the people.

• 2:13:11Jesse Michels?

  Yeah, so, but it, it, it's clearly good for their career. It's not.

• 2:13:14Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 2:13:15Jesse Michels?

  Bad for their.

• 2:13:15Speaker 00

  That's exactly right.

• 2:13:16Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 2:13:16Speaker 00

  Exactly right. Yeah. No, they're getting notoriety and people want the truth.

• 2:13:19Jesse Michels?

  Yeah, they do.

• 2:13:20Speaker 00

  And they should get it.

• 2:13:21Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 2:13:21Speaker 00

  Like, I don't care, man. If it's a little scary, whatever.

• 2:13:24Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 2:13:24Speaker 00

  Don't hide, don't treat us like children. Don't hide the truth. Like, it's so, like, you, you know so much, and I know what I know, whatever.

• 2:13:33Jesse Michels?

  You know more than me.

• 2:13:34Speaker 00

  Well, not, not really, but, but, you know, what I know, I know, right? Because I went out, you know? But, um, we, regardless of it, I think that every man, woman, and child has a right to know what the bigger picture is. Stop treating us like children. Like, it frustrates me to no end when you see, like, statements made, you know, it's started to be less so these days. Satan's, they're so clearly, like.

• 2:14:06Speaker 00

  Clash with reality like the crash test dummies in Roswell. If you've looked in a modicum of research into the Roswell case, you'd be like, you'd laugh that right out of the room, right?

• 2:14:16Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 2:14:17Speaker 00

  All these bluish dummies, and it's like, and that happened like way later. And then Project Mogul, like Project Mogul is like later and they're same balloons, but they're stringed together to make a bigger balloon. Like, if you look at all the facts, that's just, it's like a slap in the face.

• 2:14:30Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 2:14:30Speaker 00

  Anybody who knows anything about it, you know, it's like, and it's just, I've had it, like, could you just please, can we just have some transparency on this? Like, it's one of the reasons why I'm working so hard. Like, you know, I'm pushing now harder than ever. Like, I've cranked out, since 2020, I put out the phenomenon, then I put out Moment of Contact, then I put out the program, now I put out a new version, Moment of Contact, which is covering all the congressional hearings really quickly you saw. And I'm doing something else that I'll be cranking that out in under a year, because I feel like now is not the time to let up. As much as I want to go spend more time with my family, and I do, believe me, it's very painful, like, to be away from my son and I'm missing so many things.

• 2:15:13Speaker 00

  But I feel like my, my whole career has kind of culminated to this moment right now. And I feel like we all, as a community, need to work together, need to be kinder to one another, need to respect one another, particularly with those that we disagree with. I really mean that, like, because we're stronger together.

• 2:15:29Jesse Michels?

  Yeah. Speak, speak, speaking of people who did not hold back on the truth, Paula 14 astronaut, Edgar Mitchell.

• 2:15:36Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 2:15:36Jesse Michels?

  You met him as well, right?

• 2:15:38Speaker 00

  Yes, I did.

• 2:15:39Jesse Michels?

  And he came back and he was just, from his moon, you know, excursions. And he was just completely adamant that alien life is real. I think he was in touch with various components of the government, maybe kind of legacy crash retrieval programs.

• 2:15:56Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 2:15:56Jesse Michels?

  Himself.

• 2:15:57Speaker 00

  Yes. He had that, he had that memo at his house.

• 2:15:59Jesse Michels?

  Yeah, tell me about this memo.

• 2:16:01Speaker 00

  Well, it's the.

• 2:16:03Jesse Michels?

  Oh, you're talking about the Wilson Davis.

• 2:16:04Speaker 00

  Yeah, you know.

• 2:16:04Jesse Michels?

  Yeah, of course.

• 2:16:05Speaker 00

  Yeah, I covered that.

• 2:16:06Jesse Michels?

  Yeah, which is strange that he even had that memo, which is, which is documenting Eric Davis in the parking lot, talking to Admiral Thomas J. Wilson, who's head of J2 Joint Chiefs, should be in charge of all military technology in the government at the time.

• 2:16:19Speaker 00

  And he's still around.

• 2:16:20Jesse Michels?

  Late 90s, he's still around.

• 2:16:21Speaker 00

  You know, he was, there were some people that wanted to subpoena him into, into a SCIF.

• 2:16:24Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 2:16:25Speaker 00

  And he goes, and I talked to the people that subpoenaed him.

• 2:16:28Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 2:16:28Speaker 00

  And they said, he goes, he goes, sure, I'll, I'll come into this gift, but I'm gonna tell you the same thing I'm telling you right here that I'm gonna tell you in this gift.

• 2:16:35Jesse Michels?

  Whoa.

• 2:16:36Speaker 00

  If you want to waste my time and yours, let's go.

• 2:16:39Jesse Michels?

  That's crazy.

• 2:16:40Speaker 00

  Isn't that funny?

• 2:16:41Jesse Michels?

  Cause in that document, you have him.

• 2:16:43Speaker 00

  But he said he would deny it.

• 2:16:44Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 2:16:45Speaker 00

  He's like, if this ever comes out, I'll deny, deny, deny.

• 2:16:48Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 2:16:48Speaker 00

  But let me tell you something interesting about Edgar, Edgar Mitchell. And I was really close, I mean, I was, I would call him all the time for advice and he participated. I was interviewing him in my twenties, I went to his house and in the middle of the interview. And I was also friends with Buzz Aldrin's sister, Faye Ann Potter, very close. I used to go to her house, I used to look at all the behind the scenes photographs and the moon landings and all the stuff. And she would tell, she said that the NASA authorities said that they were all given some kind of pill that they would die if anything happened. And also like.

• 2:17:18Jesse Michels?

  Wait, wait, they would be given a pill?

• 2:17:20Speaker 00

  They gave a pill like where they had to kill themselves. If they missed the, if they missed the earth, I'm sorry, if they missed the moon and they shot off into the space.

• 2:17:26Jesse Michels?

  Whoa.

• 2:17:26Speaker 00

  They were gonna, they would have something that they could die. Yeah, they could, and there was, they would have to have a slow death, they could kill us. That's what she told me, Faye Ann Potter.

• 2:17:33Jesse Michels?

  Wow.

• 2:17:33Speaker 00

  She showed me all these pictures and, and that, and that if, if, uh, if, if, if Neil Armstrong came out and anything happened to him. Buzz was not supposed to play the hero. He's supposed to leave his ass on the moon and get back, meet up with, was it Collins that they?

• 2:17:49Jesse Michels?

  Michael J. Collins.

• 2:17:50Speaker 00

  Michael J. Collins, yeah. And so she, she told me that, she also told me that he had some UFO encounter on the way to the moon.

• 2:17:58Speaker 00

  I know, yeah. And one of my biggest regrets was, well, I have a lot of them, but.

• 2:18:02Jesse Michels?

  You told that story on the last.

• 2:18:04Speaker 00

  Yeah, it was that Faye Ann Potter never, I never got her on camera talking about her, her brother.

• 2:18:09Jesse Michels?

  But you chased Buzz Aldrin down.

• 2:18:10Speaker 00

  I did chase Buzz Aldrin.

• 2:18:11Jesse Michels?

  And you said, I want to interview you about UFOs. And then he goes, what did, what would my testimony do?

• 2:18:17Speaker 00

  When I was watching Joe Rogan talk about, and I respect his opinion, that's totally fine. But I was personally friends with a number of people that landed on the moon and I got great detail. And could I have been deceived? Sure, I could have been. But I think about, like, when Joe's like, yeah, look at the three of them sitting right after they landed on the moon. I was thinking, well, that's the look on their faces of people that maybe they had a UFO encounter on the way to the moon, like Faye Ann Potter had.

• 2:18:39Jesse Michels?

  Yeah, that's the third choice.

• 2:18:41Speaker 00

  And they had to shut up about it.

• 2:18:42Jesse Michels?

  That's the third option.

• 2:18:43Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 2:18:44Jesse Michels?

  Because you have, you know, you know Beatrice Vioreal?

• 2:18:46Speaker 00

  No.

• 2:18:47Jesse Michels?

  Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 2:18:48Speaker 00

  You interviewed her not too long ago.

• 2:18:49Jesse Michels?

  Yeah, she's amazing.

• 2:18:50Speaker 00

  She spotted.

• 2:18:52Jesse Michels?

  Thousands, 10,000 plus transients every year from in the Palmar Observatory, which is the most prominent observatory. And this was between 1949 and 1957. These things aren't sun streaks. They're not, you know, asteroids, comets, meteors. Obviously, they're they're not satellites because they're pre Sputnik in 1957. And they look like mirror like light reflecting objects, which are what all the CIA documents describe UFOs as in the late 40s and early 50s. And they're in geosynchronous orbit. And so you, you, yeah. And so you have to, and they, and they sort of pop up. Yeah. And so you wonder, when you leave, you know, the Van Allen Belt,

• 2:19:34Jesse Michels?

  you know, when you leave the protective magnetosphere of the earth, do you just encounter tons and tons of UFOs? And if you look at Blue Gild Triple Prime, which was the first time we cut a hole in the magnetosphere of the earth with the, we know, we were trying to see if we could puncture the Van Allen Belt. Guess what came out? UFO material. And Harold Malmgren, this presidential advisor.

• 2:19:56Speaker 00

  I'm so glad you got to him.

• 2:19:58Jesse Michels?

  Isn't that wild? And he said he was holding the pieces, the pieces of the UFO.

• 2:20:01Speaker 00

  It was, it was an accidental shoot down.

• 2:20:03Speaker 08

  He reached for some stuff sitting on his desk. These are things that have come down.

• 2:20:11Jesse Michels?

  But debris or images?

• 2:20:14Speaker 08

  Debris.

• 2:20:15Jesse Michels?

  Wow.

• 2:20:17Speaker 08

  No, he said handling it.

• 2:20:19Jesse Michels?

  Wow, that's amazing.

• 2:20:21Speaker 27

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• 2:20:50Speaker 03

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• 2:20:52Speaker 28

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• 2:20:53Speaker 03

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• 2:20:56Speaker 28

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• 2:20:57Speaker 03

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• 2:20:58Speaker 28

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• 2:21:05Speaker 03

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• 2:21:07Speaker 28

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• 2:21:11Speaker 03

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• 2:21:13Speaker 28

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• 2:21:15Speaker 03

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• 2:21:16Speaker 28

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• 2:21:17Speaker 03

  Priceline.

• 2:21:18Speaker 28

  Touche.

• 2:21:20Speaker 00

  Priceline.

• 2:21:20Jesse Michels?

  So are we just surrounded by UFOs? And, and maybe that's the secret. Maybe the, you know, the, the Neil Armstrong cryptic speech about, you know, the, the layers concealing the truth.

• 2:21:35Speaker 37

  There are great ideas undiscovered.

• 2:21:38Speaker 37

  Breakthroughs available to those who can remove one of truth's protective layers.

• 2:21:46Jesse Michels?

  Are in fact, the idea that once you, you get past the Van Allen belt, you actually encounter just a UFO. And then you have, okay, another one.

• 2:21:54Speaker 00

  Very well could be the case. And all I can tell you is I was good friends with Edgar Mitchell. I went to his house. I sat down with him and in the middle of a UFO interview, I was like, I, I, I'm sorry to ask this of you. I know you get asked this all the time, but what was it like to go to the moon? I closed my eyes and I listened to every, every detail. But if that guy was lying, he was a damn good liar. Like just me in the room with him and the, the sound guy or audio guy. You know, I'd have to dismiss him. I'd have to dismiss Fan Potter. I'd have to say like, I'm open to it though.

• 2:22:25Jesse Michels?

  So here, no, here, here's where I land.

• 2:22:28Speaker 00

  Yeah, sorry. Yeah, I didn't mean to interrupt you.

• 2:22:29Jesse Michels?

  No, you didn't interrupt me at all. I'm just answer, I'm just kind of responding to how, where you're, you're at. Is like, I, I think the presentation of the first Apollo mission was clearly manicured and sanitized.

• 2:22:42Speaker 00

  Can I tell you something about that?

• 2:22:43Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 2:22:44Speaker 00

  So I talked to Edgar Mitchell because a lot of this stuff was coming out in the nineties.

• 2:22:48Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 2:22:48Speaker 00

  And they were questioning the moon landing and stuff. And I was like, yo, what do you think about all this like imagery and duh, duh, duh?

• 2:22:52Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 2:22:53Speaker 00

  He goes, James, it wouldn't surprise me. He goes, we had Hasselblad cameras with no viewfinders, gardening gloves on.

• 2:22:58Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 2:22:58Speaker 00

  And like, the whole world was watching. He goes, it wouldn't surprise me if they recreated some imagery that they could fall back on. Just in case.

• 2:23:07Jesse Michels?

  For sure.

• 2:23:08Speaker 00

  The biggest, most expensive endeavor in the history of mankind. And like, and he goes, that wouldn't surprise me. But he goes, I walked on the moon. I swear to God.

• 2:23:17Jesse Michels?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 2:23:18Speaker 00

  Like if we had one person, and maybe we do, but I don't know of anyone, I don't know. I mean, how many people were involved in putting a man on the moon? But I'm, I'm assuming it was in the tens of thousands, if not more. And not one person from high level at NASA.

• 2:23:31Jesse Michels?

  Well, walking on the moon, way less than that, you know.

• 2:23:34Speaker 00

  No, no, but what?

• 2:23:36Jesse Michels?

  Oh, involved in the program.

• 2:23:37Speaker 00

  The Apollo program.

• 2:23:38Jesse Michels?

  A few, a few hundred thousand.

• 2:23:39Speaker 00

  A few hundred thousand.

• 2:23:40Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 2:23:40Speaker 00

  So has anyone from that few hundred thousand come forward and said it didn't happen?

• 2:23:44Jesse Michels?

  Yes, but, but, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 2:23:46Speaker 00

  Yeah, I didn't know that.

• 2:23:47Jesse Michels?

  Yes, but.

• 2:23:48Speaker 00

  No, no Apollo astronauts, but some people within the NASA.

• 2:23:51Jesse Michels?

  Some people in, yeah, in fact, there's this guy who Rogan talked about on the show where he like did this whole review and he, you know.

• 2:23:59Speaker 00

  Oh, I, I, I saw that podcast that Danny, Danny, Danny.

• 2:24:03Jesse Michels?

  And, and you had the Danny Jones, you know, but, but Barcy Brel is, he's not associated with the program itself. But there are, there are people who were, and there's the Gus Grisham thing.

• 2:24:11Speaker 00

  Right. He died the next day and yeah, put a lemon on the thing.

• 2:24:14Jesse Michels?

  There's some weird facts and you could, you know, if you think that the UFO program is, involves like so many people, like there's an argument that could be made that the only thing that would need to be faked would be like mission control. And if you could fake mission control, you know, like all the parts suppliers and all the people like doing kind of the ancillary kind of peripheral. You have, you know, like the, the spokes of the wheel, so to speak, in the operation, they could easily be lied to. But, uh, yeah, I still shake out, I do, you know, I think we attempted and then like, you know, I did, there's, to me, I, I, following the evidence, something about the presentation of the whole thing clearly sanitized.

• 2:24:55Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 2:24:55Jesse Michels?

  Clearly the video's weird, the two light, the two light sources, the, you know, the.

• 2:25:00Speaker 00

  There were some anomalies, no question.

• 2:25:02Jesse Michels?

  The flag, the, you know, this is just like, there's a, there's a lot, you know, no dust on the lunar lander.

• 2:25:08Speaker 00

  I talked to a guy who was a scientist that actually coincidentally worked on that cheesy TV show I did, Ben, uh, is the guy. And I was asking him about the moon landing stuff and he's like, wow, you know, and he's told geeked out scientists, like he's like, ah, you know, we can see the, the laser, we put a laser on some of the things that we left on the surface of the moon.

• 2:25:26Jesse Michels?

  Yeah, the, the reflectors.

• 2:25:27Speaker 00

  Yeah, reflectors and we have stuff up there and you can see them.

• 2:25:30Jesse Michels?

  You can put, you can put up the reflector with the, with the rover.

• 2:25:33Speaker 00

  Yeah, but so something went to the moon, according to this guy Ben.

• 2:25:36Jesse Michels?

  For sure, something. Well, we put rovers to them, up to the moon.

• 2:25:39Speaker 00

  No question.

• 2:25:40Jesse Michels?

  No, no question about that. Yeah.

• 2:25:41Speaker 00

  No question.

• 2:25:42Jesse Michels?

  Yeah. Yeah, no.

• 2:25:43Speaker 00

  Anyway, you know, I again, going back to the UFO phenomenon, every time I say something's impossible, therefore, you know, it can't be there, for it isn't, I've been proven wrong.

• 2:25:52Jesse Michels?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 2:25:53Speaker 00

  I have to open, I have to be like, from what I know, I believe we went to the moon. Could I be wrong? I could be wrong. And I'm not going to sit there and say, I'm, you know, I know what I'm talking about because I really don't.

• 2:26:03Jesse Michels?

  Well, maybe the more interesting middle path would be there UFOs along the way to the moon and it's surrounded or something. And you have John Podesta, who is Clinton's chief of staff and, you know.

• 2:26:13Speaker 00

  Well, I interviewed.

• 2:26:14Jesse Michels?

  Oh, really?

• 2:26:15Speaker 00

  I interviewed him, yeah.

• 2:26:16Jesse Michels?

  What was that like?

• 2:26:17Speaker 00

  It was great because he talked about, you know, they, so Lawrence Spellman Rockefeller, who put together the briefing document for dignitaries and high level politicians and all that stuff. I think it was like a global thing. He apparently put significant pressure on the Clinton administration to look into UFOs. And to the point where he said, if you don't do it, I'm going to, I'm going to publish, publicize the fact that you won't do it. I'm going to put it on the cover of every magazine across the country. You know, blah, blah, blah, apparently.

• 2:26:48Jesse Michels?

  Whoa.

• 2:26:49Speaker 00

  Threatened him a little bit. And, and so Podesta said, all right, well, the Clinton administration said, all right, pick a case that we should look into. And they picked Roswell because Roswell, obviously if it happened, right? And so, and then according to Podesta, Clinton was not happy with the answers they were getting. They were getting the runaround. The President of the United States was getting the runaround.

• 2:27:09Jesse Michels?

  Yeah, no, that's right. And then Podesta basically entered a, you know, multi-decade-long personal search for this whole thing.

• 2:27:16Speaker 00

  Really cool that he spoke out at one of the National Press Club events, I think that Leslie Kane was involved with way back, back, back when.

• 2:27:24Jesse Michels?

  Maybe, yeah, maybe. I believe it. Well, there, there are emails that have since been deleted between him and Tom DeLonge.

• 2:27:30Speaker 00

  About UFOs.

• 2:27:31Jesse Michels?

  And these are, this came out over WikiLeaks, but you know, I think this, this exists in the form of screenshots or maybe the Wayback Machine or something. And it's him meeting with a guy named Bob Fish. Who I think might have worked at Aerospace Corporation in El Segundo across from SpaceX, this sort of mysterious federally funded research and development center, think tank, and they're talking about fast walkers.

• 2:27:55Speaker 00

  That's one of the things in space.

• 2:27:56Jesse Michels?

  Fast walkers, and to this day, you cannot use the Freedom of Information Act on fast walkers, you know, John Greenwald tried to do that, he's like the UFO FOIA guy, and was rejected. And the Defense Support Program, the DSP, is the Air Force's outermost defense of like,

• 2:28:14Speaker 00

  Like 80,000 miles up?

• 2:28:16Jesse Michels?

  Yeah, it's, yeah, I think a little less than that, I think, but yeah.

• 2:28:20Speaker 00

  Or 80,000 feet, I'm so sorry, I meant to say 80,000 feet, because isn't that space?

• 2:28:23Jesse Michels?

  That's where space starts.

• 2:28:24Speaker 00

  Okay.

• 2:28:25Jesse Michels?

  But I think, I think it's, I think it's like 35,000 kilometers and up is geosynchronous orbit, I think.

• 2:28:32Speaker 00

  That's where they're detecting these fast walkers.

• 2:28:34Jesse Michels?

  And that's where they're detecting these fast walkers. And, yeah, interesting, right? And so you have the Malmgren thing where you puncture the Van Allen radiation belt, and that UFO material comes out.

• 2:28:44Speaker 00

  Was it like a Tic Tac?

• 2:28:45Jesse Michels?

  Yeah, you have, it's just material that he held, is all we know. Lawrence Preston Geiss, who ran the Atomic Energy Commission, Albuquerque branch.

• 2:28:54Speaker 00

  Didn't they scoop it out of the ocean?

• 2:28:55Jesse Michels?

  They did scoop it out of the ocean, yeah. And General Starbird, who was there, flew back to headquarters at like 4:00 AM that night, and William Ogle, who was overseeing the whole thing for Los Alamos, Special Projects Division, writes about it. And all of this is like, public, it's really insane. And, yeah, and you have this kind of public fight between, you have, on the one hand, Jeffrey Kruichshank, who's like a nuclear expert UFO researcher in Australia, and then Dean Johnson, and Merrick von Rennenkamp, they say it's the booster, but he's sure that it can't be the booster, it has to be some sort of anomalous UFO material, but you have video of something coming out, and then you have this other video, where it

• 2:29:39Jesse Michels?

  looks like there's a white triangle superimposing the UFO coming out of the nuclear blast plume.

• 2:29:45Speaker 00

  Wow.

• 2:29:45Jesse Michels?

  It's crazy, it's crazy, and that's where. The debate gets a little above my head as far as, you know, the Merrick and Dean Johnson versus the Krukshank. I don't know if that, but we need more eyes on that. It's an important thing.

• 2:30:01Speaker 00

  When you interviewed Malgram.

• 2:30:02Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 2:30:02Speaker 00

  And I was watching the interview. I was like, I'm so glad you got to him. I was thinking to myself, and this is just me speculating, whatever. I was thinking like about that launch of the Atlas rocket at Vandenberg circa 1964.

• 2:30:18Jesse Michels?

  Four.

• 2:30:18Speaker 00

  Sixty-four. With the, with the, with the dummy warhead on it, right?

• 2:30:24Speaker 00

  No wonder, if it's true, what Malgram says, right? They detonated that up into, was it subspace? Or?

• 2:30:30Jesse Michels?

  Yeah, it was a, yeah, high altitude nuclear, yeah, a little subspace, huh? Yeah.

• 2:30:34Speaker 00

  Right. Yeah. So if that's the case, no wonder why they were shooting at the dummy warhead, according to Jacobs, right?

• 2:30:42Jesse Michels?

  Exactly.

• 2:30:42Speaker 00

  The footage that he captured. If I, if one of my comrades was shot down by one of these silly like missile launch with a nuclear, you know what I mean? Like, I'd probably shoot it out of the sky too, which is exactly what they did. I was like, wow, that makes sense. No wonder why they shot it out of the sky.

• 2:30:58Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 2:30:59Speaker 00

  It took some of their people down.

• 2:31:00Jesse Michels?

  Yes. And then, and then you, then you have this.

• 2:31:03Speaker 00

  Disabling nukes, shooting that out of the sky. Like, that's pretty phenomenal.

• 2:31:08Jesse Michels?

  Yeah, it's really phenomenal.

• 2:31:09Speaker 00

  And Lou Elizondo said he saw that footage.

• 2:31:12Jesse Michels?

  Yeah, I know. He says he saw that footage. He says he knows where it is. And I'm like, Lou, get that thing out.

• 2:31:16Speaker 38

  We saw the video and we.

• 2:31:19Jesse Michels?

  That's crazy, because that's what I was gonna ask you. He said, he was like, I think Lou has seen the video. So you've seen the video?

• 2:31:26Speaker 38

  Yeah.

• 2:31:27Jesse Michels?

  So you know this is a real thing?

• 2:31:29Speaker 38

  Yep.

• 2:31:29Jesse Michels?

  Oh, my God. It's, is the video, do you still have the video or?

• 2:31:34Speaker 38

  I don't have it. It was, it was in Pentagon with all my other files. When, when the Pentagon said they deleted everything, of course, we know they really didn't because.

• 2:31:41Jesse Michels?

  Really?

• 2:31:41Speaker 38

  After they, oh, yeah. Oh, yeah.

• 2:31:43Jesse Michels?

  Oh, my God.

• 2:31:45Speaker 38

  Know where everything is. And then, and then when I talked to a buddy of mine, apparently somebody went in and they, they cleaned everything out. But what they don't realize is that there's backups in a whole lot of places at that Pentagon.

• 2:31:55Jesse Michels?

  Okay.

• 2:31:56Speaker 38

  The problem is if I say it right now, they'll go and mysteriously, a bunch of people's computers will wind up disappearing tomorrow. So I'm just gonna wait until the right time. And, uh, you know, that stuff is alive and well.

• 2:32:07Speaker 00

  We need to provide people like Lou and Grush immunity so they can give us all those details that we need. That that needs to happen. We need to figure that out.

• 2:32:16Jesse Michels?

  Yeah, just give it like if the presidential executive order, say everything you know. And let's, let's reverse it. You have to say everything you know, or you're in trouble. Everything you know that doesn't compromise some like specific vehicle you're working on that's gonna confer a tactical advantage to Russia or China, all the science, let it out and flip it and say, if you don't say everything you know, you're gonna get in trouble. Let's do that.

• 2:32:39Speaker 00

  I, I mean, you know, look, we've got nothing to lose, everything to gain. Obviously, there are certain aspects of national security. I understand that they don't want to get in the hands of the wrong people. I get it. You know, if the accounts somebody believes that Russia's obviously trying to figure this out.

• 2:32:54Jesse Michels?

  But it's like, it's like nuclear trade secrets. We don't let out the trade secrets, but nuclear science is taught at universities across the United States.

• 2:33:02Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 2:33:02Jesse Michels?

  This should be treated the exact same way.

• 2:33:04Speaker 00

  Totally agree. I totally agree. And like, you know, like I said earlier in the, in the show, if you don't believe Lou, if you don't believe Grush, you don't believe Hal, you don't believe Eric Davis or any of these other alleged whistleblowers, uh, let's, let's give them immunity and let's put them on the stand.

• 2:33:19Jesse Michels?

  Eric Davis in your recent moment of contact, he's asking for that. He says literally, give me blanket immunity and I will say everything I know.

• 2:33:26Speaker 00

  Yep. He'll testify tomorrow in an open, under oath.

• 2:33:30Jesse Michels?

  Under oath.

• 2:33:31Speaker 00

  To a bipartisan group of lawmakers openly for the whole world to see.

• 2:33:35Jesse Michels?

  And he says he has all this data on crash retrievals, alien bodies.

• 2:33:39Speaker 00

  Criticize him all you want.

• 2:33:40Jesse Michels?

  He says, I swear on my family's life that this is the truth.

• 2:33:43Speaker 00

  He said on my children's life.

• 2:33:44Jesse Michels?

  On my children's life.

• 2:33:46Speaker 00

  Where's the proof? We have alien spaceships in our possession. We have bodies. Where and why can't I get the specifics to verify those claims?

• 2:33:55Speaker 37

  If the President of the United States issued an executive order that.

• 2:34:03Speaker 37

  Absolves me of all of my TSSCI NDAs. NDAs are non-disclosure agreements. Those are the agreements we have to sign for every compartment in our SCI clearances. So if the president waives or absolves my obligation to those NDAs, and I get subpoenaed by Congress, somebody on Capitol Hill, some committee, either in the Senate or the House or the both, to reveal everything I know that I learned from my investigations, both unclassified and classified, into the legacy UAP, crash retrieval, and hardware reverse engineering, and NHI programs, I would do so.

• 2:34:45Speaker 37

  If I could be waived from that, or absolved in some fashion by presidential order, and if Congress subpoenas me, yes, I would go and tell them everything I know. This reality is very hard, very physical, very real, and this type of evidence, you can't come by in the open literature. It's not public, it's classified. And I can't discuss what it was, but I can tell you, yeah, it's a crash retrieval, there's a craft, and there's alien bodies. That's all I can say about it.

• 2:35:15Speaker 00

  You swear on your life that you saw those pictures?

• 2:35:18Speaker 37

  Oh, I swear on my life, and everybody's, my children's life, so, yeah, I'm absolutely telling you the truth. I saw the evidence, and it's stark.

• 2:35:27Jesse Michels?

  Just wild. So, yes, that needs- Thank you for remembering that, that's a great line. Absolutely. I swear on my chil- Who's gonna say that? Yeah, I mean- Who would say that? You're either, you're either a sick person- You're a psychopath? Or, or you're- Or you're telling the truth. Yeah. And speaking of, you know, the idea of- You're speaking of psychopaths, no. Yeah, speaking of psychopaths, yeah. No, speaking of, you're, you're mentioning of Bob Jacobs Vandenberg case in 64, where you have this dummy nuclear warhead getting shot out of the sky. Yes.

• 2:35:58Jesse Michels?

  This is where it gets really trippy because either they are defending against some sort of incursion in their airspace. Yeah. Or they're actually provoking some of this occurring. So this is, this is really strange. But Malgrin on his deathbed told Pippa, his daughter, that he saw an interview from one of the surviving beings from Roswell. And that. Taped? What's that? Taped, a taped interview? A taped interview. Okay, okay. So he saw, sorry, just sorry. Yeah, yeah, not alive. Sorry. No, no, a taped interview. So Malgrin on his deathbed. Yes. Hold his daughter Pippin. Who's alive and a friend of mine and. That he watched. A tape. A taped interview with a captured alien.

• 2:36:41Jesse Michels?

  With a captured alien. And guess what? Guess what the alien said? He, the alien gave them the idea to do Blue Gill Triple Prime. And have this, you know, specialized X-ray system that would not only be used as missile defense, but be used to take out UFO material out of the sky to be reverse engineered. So it's that, isn't that. Like, like a, like a deal? Like what? Like giving him information as to how to retrieve the material. So you get into this weird thing where like. It's about even say that on camera. I know. Well, there's so much. Why would his daughter make that up? No, why would she make it up? That doesn't make any sense.

• 2:37:26Jesse Michels?

  Well, it's all these things and, and, and there was kind of a takedown of the, you know, there's all these people criticizing Malgrin afterwards. They said that. Easy to do, right? Well, yeah, well, I can also. I mean, when they're dead. Sure. I can also crush all their argument. They literally, you know, this is, you know, I don't want to be too tribalistic. Like I, I do think all of this stuff has to be thought about probabilistically. And like, if there are good points, please make them against this guy. There's no, there are no sacred cows. He's making an extraordinary claim. But this guy was an elite statesman who knew people. You know, at the top of the of the chain, like literally, you know, new new Nixon personally, he was LBJ, JFK, Nixon and Ford, you know, presidential advisor.

• 2:38:10Speaker 00

  Yeah, he's not an anybody.

• 2:38:11Jesse Michels?

  He was, he was a little bit junior in the, in the JFK administration and was more, you know, in touch with Shriver. But like, yeah, was not, was not a nobody, you know, talks about stories with the, you know, Russian Foreign Minister Dobrinin. His mentor was Richard Bissell, who was founded Area 51 and was the Deputy Director of the CIA, the number two at the entire CIA. We have diaries of his that say, "Meeting with Bissell," all over his, his diary, his journal. So he definitely knew Bissell. If he had gotten his Q clearance through the CIA, there's no way to use the Freedom of Information Act against it.

• 2:38:49Speaker 00

  Is that the highest level Q?

• 2:38:51Jesse Michels?

  Yes. Well, I think there possibly, you know, UAP group talks about different designations within Q clearance.

• 2:38:57Speaker 00

  Like a SAP?

• 2:38:58Jesse Michels?

  Like, I think there's this like special foreign intelligence designation. So the CIA works with the DOE and there's a counter intel division actually of the CIA that like works with the Department of Energy. And I think there are different Q clearances you can have.

• 2:39:14Speaker 00

  Because DO, sorry, Department of Energy, because I was told, I think it was Chris Mellon was telling me this, that they hide things because anything nuclear would be national security.

• 2:39:26Jesse Michels?

  Yeah. So if you look at this.

• 2:39:27Speaker 00

  And that's under the Department of Energy?

• 2:39:27Jesse Michels?

  If you look at this.

• 2:39:28Speaker 00

  So you could hide these SAPs and WUSAPs in the, under the Department of Energy? Is that?

• 2:39:33Jesse Michels?

  Yeah. But if you look at the special definition of nuclear material, 1954 Atomic Energy Act, it's anything emitting any sort of radiation, alpha, beta, gamma radiation, whatever, upon retrieval of that thing, that is restricted data. So it's born secret.

• 2:39:49Speaker 00

  Automatically.

• 2:39:49Jesse Michels?

  Automatically secret. So if you're an aerospace contractor, you don't need some sort of official clearance designation, you know, you just.

• 2:39:56Speaker 00

  It's just automatic.

• 2:39:56Jesse Michels?

  You're automatically, that is, that is secret.

• 2:39:59Speaker 00

  Or that umbrella.

• 2:40:00Jesse Michels?

  Yeah. So, so, so that you have this, this, you know, this blog came out trying to debunk Malmgren. But if he got a skill clearance through the CIA, they'd have no idea that, you know, they, you can't use a freedom of information against that. This was at the time where, you know, not official covers this idea of it being a knock for the CIA was like rampant, like a ton of these guys. And he was at a federal funded research and development center called the IDA, the Institute for Defense Analysis, which has instituted every, or has helped with every single missile defense system that the US has built since then, since Blue Gold Triple Prime. And he said in a 2024 interview before he interviewed with me, that his work at the

• 2:40:44Jesse Michels?

  IDA was actually a cover for what he was doing for the National Security Council in the White House. So you have all these arguments that, oh, he's just at the IDA, he's like some junior guy, like, no, he's already talked about this. And his mentor, by the way, was extremely high up at the CIA.

• 2:40:57Speaker 00

  Dude, this is what you're really good at. You're really good at putting these complex pieces of the puzzle together. It's like, oh, this is like this, that, that makes sense. And this is over here. It's like, duh.

• 2:41:06Jesse Michels?

  Well, it's important.

• 2:41:07Speaker 00

  Well, you're totally important. Are you kidding me? And I love the deep dives that you do, just like when I put the maps up for Virginia, this witness was here, this witness turns out to be there. It's like, oh, my gosh, it all lines up.

• 2:41:18Jesse Michels?

  You have a full picture.

• 2:41:19Speaker 00

  You have a full picture, just like what you're doing on the inside, like you're creating that full picture, which is mandatory for what you do. Like when I'm in the field, putting the pieces of the puzzle together, when we met Italo, it made perfectly good sense because we knew for decades that it went initially alive to regional, right? Then it was humanitas. Now we have, we have to get to humanitas. We're working on that now. Like, you know what I mean? You're putting the piece, and they're all, it's all painting the picture, right? Like, it's incredible, just like what you're doing.

• 2:41:49Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 2:41:50Speaker 00

  You're putting all the pieces of the puzzle together, where are the different? It's incredible. And I, I'm always impressed when I watch how you do that. Like, I'm doing it in my little way, and you're doing, you know?

• 2:42:00Jesse Michels?

  We're all doing it.

• 2:42:01Speaker 00

  Yeah, no, it's really cool to watch. That was like, there was.

• 2:42:06Speaker 00

  Couple of interview, deep dive interviews that you did that I was just like, holy smokes. You know, it was very impressive with Hal or was it Hal?

• 2:42:16Speaker 00

  Eric Davis.

• 2:42:17Jesse Michels?

  Oh, yeah.

• 2:42:17Speaker 00

  Yeah, that, that whole thing, just the deep dives and the stuff that you do is very impressive to watch.

• 2:42:22Jesse Michels?

  Well, I'm excited. It's fun to watch all this stuff accelerate.

• 2:42:25Speaker 00

  We're, we're in this together.

• 2:42:26Jesse Michels?

  Yes.

• 2:42:27Speaker 00

  We support each other.

• 2:42:28Jesse Michels?

  Yes.

• 2:42:28Speaker 00

  I remind people out there that to, to, we're stronger together. Be kind, particularly those you disagree with. It's okay that we disagree. It's fine.

• 2:42:38Jesse Michels?

  Yes.

• 2:42:38Speaker 00

  Nothing wrong with that.

• 2:42:39Jesse Michels?

  Yes.

• 2:42:39Speaker 00

  And, uh, you know, I'm not out here screaming ET from the hilltops. I'm not. I, I'm, I'm curious. I want to know desperately.

• 2:42:49Jesse Michels?

  And it's easy.

• 2:42:49Speaker 00

  What's behind it all?

• 2:42:50Jesse Michels?

  It, it's easy to, it's easier and lazier to impugn somebody's motives and say that they're a bad actor than to actually tackle the substance.

• 2:43:00Speaker 00

  Or give them a platform so they can, they can cough up the goods.

• 2:43:03Jesse Michels?

  Yeah, exactly.

• 2:43:04Speaker 00

  Why not?

• 2:43:04Jesse Michels?

  Yeah, yeah, exactly. Yes.

• 2:43:07Speaker 00

  So I was going to criticize you and I'm not gonna, you know, uh, I'm not gonna, you know, continue like people give these breadcrumbs. I think about like David Grush, for instance, you know, he comes forward. It's like, all right, well, you know what? You know, extraordinary claims, if you want to say, you know, give us the extraordinary evidence. But why not create that platform for David Grush to build, to do that? He's refrained. He's restrained. He's scared for his, his safety, his family's safety. Like he could get locked up. I mean, those are real concerns that these people have.

• 2:43:35Jesse Michels?

  Yeah. You think he's going to fall on his face? Okay. Give you the one time clearance. Let him go back into his skit.

• 2:43:40Speaker 00

  That's exactly right. Like, or put him out to testify in a row. Like, why, why wouldn't we do that?

• 2:43:44Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 2:43:45Speaker 00

  You know, so.

• 2:43:46Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 2:43:46Speaker 00

  Anyway, I, yeah.

• 2:43:48Jesse Michels?

  Have, okay.

• 2:43:49Speaker 00

  Yes, sir.

• 2:43:50Jesse Michels?

  You got, I got more for you because you got, you've seen so much history. So have you ever seen a saucer in a hanger?

• 2:43:58Speaker 00

  Shit, I wish. Are you kidding me? Come on.

• 2:44:02Jesse Michels?

  Cause of all people, if I was on the inside, I'd say, I'd say, James.

• 2:44:05Speaker 00

  I cannot.

• 2:44:06Jesse Michels?

  You've done your, you've done your work.

• 2:44:09Speaker 00

  I wish.

• 2:44:10Jesse Michels?

  Have you ever been taken into a skiff?

• 2:44:12Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 2:44:13Jesse Michels?

  You have?

• 2:44:13Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 2:44:14Jesse Michels?

  Have you ever seen anything interesting in a skiff?

• 2:44:16Speaker 00

  Yes. Yes.

• 2:44:18Jesse Michels?

  What did you see?

• 2:44:19Speaker 00

  I, I can't talk about that because they asked me not to, but I said, if that goes out, that's not gonna look good for you guys. That's, that flies in the face of all the testimony that I've ever heard.

• 2:44:28Jesse Michels?

  So not as good as things you've seen in the open source?

• 2:44:31Speaker 00

  Yeah. It was so really funny too, because I, I had just put out the program and I met with a number of government insiders that are intel insiders, excuse me, that described the exact computer, uh, the computer that has access to all the good, you know what I mean?

• 2:44:45Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 2:44:46Speaker 00

  UFO files and stuff like that.

• 2:44:47Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 2:44:48Speaker 00

  And I was sitting there looking at it in the skiff and I'm thinking, God, if I can have just a few minutes of that computer. You know what I mean? No, it was really crazy. It was one of kind of a pinch yourself moment when I was in there with John Kuskowski, the, the new head of Arrow, which I liked him actually.

• 2:45:03Jesse Michels?

  You thought he was cool?

• 2:45:04Speaker 00

  I did. Way cooler than Sean Kirkpatrick, that's for sure.

• 2:45:07Jesse Michels?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 2:45:08Speaker 00

  Sean Kirkpatrick, man, that guy, that, I, maybe that guy was read in or something. I don't know. That guy was, I don't trust that guy at all.

• 2:45:14Jesse Michels?

  I don't either.

• 2:45:15Speaker 00

  John Kuskowski was a really nice guy. I looked him in the eyes. He seemed like a sincere, honest, nice guy. I did not get a bad vibe from him, but

• 2:45:25Speaker 00

  I was talking openly, cause I was like, whatever, I have to lose. They know who I am. Like I was talking about Ruwa, I was talking about, you know, Virginia, I was talking about Socorro, all these different cases. And I was like, you know,

• 2:45:36Speaker 00

  you know, you're gonna draw the conclusion after all the other, you've exhausted every other possibility that we are dealing with a small percentage of probably non-human intelligence, right? I mean, you, you know that. Like, what's the plan to tell the public? And they were both very quiet and, um, John goes, he goes, you know, James, a very soft, like non, I liked him. I got a good vibe from him and he's like, you know, James. I can't part my hair without the approval of the DOD. Whoa. And then he goes, and you can quote me on that.

• 2:46:14Speaker 00

  Okay, you're quoting him on that. When I was in the skiff and it was just like in the movies, you know, I went in, I went in, it was not too far from the Pentagon. And I had to get a 48 hour background check, which I passed, thank God. And then I had to go through all the security, take everything off and go through all the, oh my gosh, that took forever. And then they had these like glass tube like things. I felt like it was in Star Trek or something. I think they went to the ceiling or they were pretty high up, glass tubes. And you walk up to it and one side opens and you step in and then that closes and another one opens and now you're in the inside. And then I go to a locker. They probably got my phone data and I took all my, all my electronics and I put it in the locker.

• 2:46:56Speaker 00

  And, you know, and then we went to a big door with a thing and you know, just like you, almost like a bank vault looking door. And it opened up and it was a, it was a, I thought it was going to be like a kind of a small room, but it was huge. It was like the whole, the whole office area was all one big skiff, right? And they walked me in there and I was just like, oh my God, this is crazy. Actually before, before we went into this gift and I'd just gone through security. I had this badge and I was like, I really want a picture of this badge. Cause I just wanna, you know, wanna have it from memory. So I, okay, can I use the bathroom? You know, oh sure, it's, I went in the bathroom, click, took a picture of the badge, which I have, cause I don't know, it's, it's not illegal, right? Take a picture of the badge.

• 2:47:42Speaker 00

  But anyway, they take me in this, down this hallway. There's a bunch of different cubicles and take me down this hallway. And then there was like a door on my right and a door on my left. The door on my right was closed, the door on the left was open. And there was like a, I don't know if it was a round table or if it was slightly like, um, like, uh, what do you call, um, oblong or whatever. But anyway, there were four or five people, couple of girls, couple of guys in suits, nicely dressed, sitting there. And they said, I wait right here. And like I said, I had a door to my, on my right and I had this open door on my left and I couldn't help myself. I was just like, you know, gotta.

• 2:48:21Speaker 00

  Listen to the other conversation. I just want, I was scared. What else am I supposed to do? I stopped where they told me to stop and then, and then they looked at me and they got up and they closed the door. And then, and then John Kaskowski with another guy from OSI came and, and met with me and opened, opened the door in that room. And then we went inside there and that's when we had, I don't know, maybe a 30 minute conversation.

• 2:48:45Jesse Michels?

  And in that conversation, was he admitting that the UFO stuff is real?

• 2:48:50Speaker 00

  They didn't say no, they didn't say yes. They were just sat there quietly.

• 2:48:54Jesse Michels?

  Okay.

• 2:48:55Speaker 00

  Yeah. Cause I was like this case and this case and this case. And then they did say that the phenomenon was mandatory viewing for anyone who worked for Arrow.

• 2:49:05Jesse Michels?

  Interesting. Well, that's cool. That's pretty awesome.

• 2:49:07Speaker 00

  I was like, wow.

• 2:49:09Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 2:49:09Speaker 00

  That was a nice little.

• 2:49:10Jesse Michels?

  I'm telling you, you're doing as much work for, they're, they're learning from you.

• 2:49:14Speaker 00

  A second. Are you ready?

• 2:49:18Jesse Michels?

  There you go. Nice.

• 2:49:20Speaker 00

  I don't know. I love my little phenomenon t-shirts.

• 2:49:23Jesse Michels?

  I gotta buy one.

• 2:49:24Speaker 00

  I go, no, I'll give you some. No, I was, the first time I went on Rogan, I, I, I was like, I'm not going to be the guy who gives them a t-shirt on camera. I'm going to do it afterwards.

• 2:49:33Jesse Michels?

  Yeah, I always do that.

• 2:49:34Speaker 00

  You know what I mean? So I give him a t-shirt afterwards.

• 2:49:36Jesse Michels?

  On camera is basically like, here's an advertisement for me.

• 2:49:39Speaker 00

  Like, hey, you know, and, and I don't even own the phenomenon anymore and none of the proceeds go to me, but I still want people to watch it because I'm very proud of that body of work and everyone that's in the credits deserves it. But, um, but I gave it to Joe Rogan and, you know, I really appreciate. And, uh, also, you know, when we went to dinner with Joe Rogan, the night before with Jacques Falay and one other guy from his team. Well, it was great, man. We, we drank really nice wine. It was five course. Oh, incredible meal. Oh my Lord. We had so much fun. I was, it was wonderful. Joe's such a nice guy, man. Like, just really a nice guy.

• 2:50:16Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 2:50:16Speaker 00

  You know, I don't care what anybody says about you. You meet him and you hang out with him. This guy's cool. He's a nice guy.

• 2:50:22Jesse Michels?

  And super fulfilled and like.

• 2:50:24Speaker 00

  So humble and just kind and generous. And anyway, I got up from the meal and I went discreetly out like I was going to the bathroom and I paid for the meal.

• 2:50:32Jesse Michels?

  Oh.

• 2:50:33Speaker 00

  And it wasn't cheap. And, uh, and, and came back and he, you know, after like 20 more minutes, he's like, hey, can, you know, can we get the bill here, please? And the guy goes, it's been taken care of. And Joe looks.

• 2:50:49Speaker 00

  And I got the impression like, nobody does that.

• 2:50:53Jesse Michels?

  What, how do you react?

• 2:50:54Speaker 00

  Well, he was shocked. He was like, you, you know, oh my God, nobody, you know, it was like, oh, hey, man, that's the least I could do. Thank, you know, anyway. But I gave him the T-shirt.

• 2:51:03Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 2:51:04Speaker 00

  And two or three days later, I could, everyone's blowing me up. Joe Rogan's wearing your T-shirt on his podcast. And there he was rocking the phenomenon on his podcast. How cool is that?

• 2:51:16Jesse Michels?

  That's so cool.

• 2:51:17Speaker 00

  You know what I mean?

• 2:51:18Jesse Michels?

  He just did the same with the ours merch last week and it was just so, it was so, it's so, so nice of him. It's so cool.

• 2:51:26Speaker 00

  He has helped so many people.

• 2:51:28Jesse Michels?

  He's created so many careers, so many.

• 2:51:30Speaker 00

  I'll give you an example. When I, I got an Uber ride, uh, would Joe, uh, Joe flew me in first class, which is incredible. Then I had a driver pick me up and the driver, he was like, oh, you're going on Joe. Oh God, I love that guy. And I was like, oh, and he goes, let me tell you, man, I was really down on my luck and I was just, things weren't going well and I was just really struggling and he goes, I, I was, I was on to take Joe to some place and I got the address wrong and I, I got him lost and I, you know, 15 minutes longer than it should have been and I felt terrible. He was, you know, Joe Rogan is such an important guy. He's got all this stuff going on and man, I felt terrible. And Joe's like, hey, man, wait here. I gotta, I'll be right back. I need to go to this one location. Come back. And Joe came back

• 2:52:15Speaker 00

  and he tipped him like $2,000. He gave him some huge tip and he goes, that saved my life. I was behind on my rent. I was like really struggling financially. He goes, Joe did that for me and I'm a random stranger, like just screwed up his, his ride. And I heard.

• 2:52:31Jesse Michels?

  That's wild.

• 2:52:31Speaker 00

  Yeah. And I heard that from just about everybody that I encountered in the Austin area about how Joe would do a random act of kindness and generosity, help people like.

• 2:52:43Jesse Michels?

  No, he is like, he's like that. He, he called me out of the blue and was like, just super complimentary, like, like just so nice and, and, uh, he's so generous and, um.

• 2:52:56Jesse Michels?

  What else? I mean, there's that story of this Ms. Pat, this comedian. She, I think, right when COVID hit or whatever, was struggling or whatever. And she was like, the only guy that called me was Joe Rogan, you know? And like,

• 2:53:07Speaker 00

  Oh, really?

• 2:53:08Jesse Michels?

  Yeah, he really, he really cares.

• 2:53:11Speaker 00

  He does care and he really does sincerely care. Now, you hear all those stories behind the scenes of people that have had encounters with him and has had nothing but nice things to say, not, nothing but nice things to say. And I say the same thing, like, I'm incredibly grateful for the exposure he's given all of us.

• 2:53:27Jesse Michels?

  All of us. I think he's more than anybody bent the timeline towards

• 2:53:31Speaker 00

  No question.

• 2:53:32Jesse Michels?

  Disclosure and even an interest in any of this.

• 2:53:35Speaker 00

  No question.

• 2:53:35Jesse Michels?

  And it allows like more, you know, I find, I think I'm sort of this niched like, you know,

• 2:53:42Speaker 00

  Another thing that I really love about Joe is that Joe has President Trump on, Joe has Bernie Sanders on.

• 2:53:47Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 2:53:48Speaker 00

  Joe has opposing viewpoints. He's kind to everybody.

• 2:53:51Jesse Michels?

  Like, yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 2:53:51Speaker 00

  He gives them a platform because I think like it's so easy nowadays, like, oh, you're on the left or you're on the right or you're in the middle or you're whatever. And, you know, you're the, you're the devil. We disagree, therefore you're the devil. And I just like, that bothers me because I'm friends with all, you're cool and you're a nice person. We're good. You know what I mean?

• 2:54:12Jesse Michels?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 2:54:13Speaker 00

  And I have friends with people that are both sides of the spectrum. We don't even care. We're high five. We're really close and tight. Good, you know what I mean? Like, I don't believe in the demonizing of someone just because they have a different viewpoint than you do. That's just so wrong.

• 2:54:26Jesse Michels?

  I know, it's so wrong. Yeah.

• 2:54:28Speaker 00

  You know, we don't need to do that.

• 2:54:29Jesse Michels?

  The internet allows you to do that. You, you compress somebody into this 2D

• 2:54:34Speaker 00

  Yeah, you're there. Exactly.

• 2:54:36Jesse Michels?

  You're, you're like this avatar that like, you know, you're some evil, like, you know, and you're not actually just like this full dimensional.

• 2:54:44Speaker 00

  You're a human being.

• 2:54:44Jesse Michels?

  Like, you have a human being with like a family and like, yeah.

• 2:54:47Speaker 00

  Totally.

• 2:54:47Jesse Michels?

  It's like, we're, it's all good.

• 2:54:49Speaker 00

  I know, I know.

• 2:54:50Jesse Michels?

  But then none of those people would say those things to your face.

• 2:54:53Speaker 00

  Your face.

• 2:54:53Jesse Michels?

  You know, it's just, it's a keyboard warrior.

• 2:54:55Speaker 00

  That's a very good point.

• 2:54:56Jesse Michels?

  BS. It's like, yeah.

• 2:54:58Speaker 00

  That is a very good point. Yeah. When you meet him, like, I always say, like, like, I've said some things very rarely and particularly not publicly, but I said, I said this, you know, to this person's face. I was like, hey, you know, I really hurt because of X, Y, and Z, and I really appreciate it. If you, you know, because I feel like If I have an issue with anybody, I'm gonna tell, say it to their face.

• 2:55:21Jesse Michels?

  Totally.

• 2:55:21Speaker 00

  Cause that's the way it should be.

• 2:55:22Jesse Michels?

  Yes.

• 2:55:23Speaker 00

  I'm not gonna sit there and like, oh, he said this and that.

• 2:55:26Jesse Michels?

  No.

• 2:55:27Speaker 00

  He's like, I got an issue. Let's hash it out. I'm pissed off. X, Y. And we all make mistakes.

• 2:55:31Jesse Michels?

  Yes.

• 2:55:32Speaker 00

  I piss people off inadvertently. You know, like, oh shit, I'm so sorry. They were offended or I said the wrong thing and like, hey, all you can do is go back and make an apology. I'm really sorry. Hope you forgive me. And nine times out of 10, people are like, you know what? That's cool. We're good.

• 2:55:44Jesse Michels?

  Yeah, it's all, yeah, totally. Yeah. A hundred percent. Have, okay. Have you ever been asked to bury a story?

• 2:55:55Speaker 00

  Sort of.

• 2:55:58Speaker 00

  Sort of.

• 2:55:58Jesse Michels?

  Okay. What does that mean? Like?

• 2:56:00Speaker 00

  Sort of like, I've had like this, this meeting never happened.

• 2:56:04Jesse Michels?

  Okay.

• 2:56:05Speaker 00

  Uh, we don't discuss any of the details that I just gave you. And I feel like if I violated that trust, I wouldn't get in the door with these people.

• 2:56:12Jesse Michels?

  No, I, I think.

• 2:56:12Speaker 00

  You know what I mean?

• 2:56:13Jesse Michels?

  Valuing relationships over.

• 2:56:15Speaker 00

  For sure.

• 2:56:15Jesse Michels?

  Yeah, yeah. No, I'm, I mean more like you were covering a thing independently. Somebody entered your life and said, you can't cover this. Okay.

• 2:56:24Speaker 00

  Kind of. Because it was an aspect of the story that I got from the inside that they didn't want that aspect out as part of the story that I was covering. And I made them the promise that I wouldn't.

• 2:56:37Jesse Michels?

  What was that for the program?

• 2:56:41Speaker 00

  No.

• 2:56:41Jesse Michels?

  Okay.

• 2:56:42Speaker 00

  No, earlier than that.

• 2:56:43Jesse Michels?

  Earlier than that?

• 2:56:44Speaker 00

  But earlier or later.

• 2:56:46Jesse Michels?

  Okay.

• 2:56:46Speaker 00

  I'm not trying to be.

• 2:56:47Jesse Michels?

  No, no, no.

• 2:56:48Speaker 00

  They just asked me not to mention it and I respect that.

• 2:56:52Jesse Michels?

  How did they find out?

• 2:56:55Jesse Michels?

  How'd they find out that you were covering the thing?

• 2:56:57Speaker 00

  Oh, oh, my, my work is public.

• 2:56:59Jesse Michels?

  Okay, okay. So you were like, you were starting to surface.

• 2:57:03Speaker 00

  It was a follow up on a previous thing that I'd reported on.

• 2:57:06Jesse Michels?

  And they were like, don't take that further.

• 2:57:07Speaker 00

  Don't, don't, don't mention that we showed you this and don't mention that we.

• 2:57:11Jesse Michels?

  Okay.

• 2:57:12Speaker 00

  You know?

• 2:57:12Jesse Michels?

  Okay.

• 2:57:13Speaker 00

  So I said I wouldn't.

• 2:57:14Jesse Michels?

  Damn.

• 2:57:15Speaker 00

  I know.

• 2:57:16Jesse Michels?

  Do you want, do you think that that if people knew that thing, that would move the needle as far as overall disclosure?

• 2:57:23Speaker 00

  Uh.

• 2:57:26Speaker 00

  No, no, not really. Okay. Um, I, I think the, uh, I think the Holloman landing footage exists. And I've talked to a number of people and I didn't, when I first heard about it, I was like, come on the landing contact, please. Yeah. Like, come on. Yeah. You know, uh, but now I'm convinced the Holloman did happen and I think that would obviously move the needle, particularly if. Why are you convinced? Well, because I was investigating Socorro and that happened in 64, April 24th, 1964. And in the process, I spent five years investigating that case on and off.

• 2:58:05Speaker 00

  I met with Ray Stanford, R I P, uh, who was the, one of the lead investigators, wrote the book Socorro saucer in a Pentagon pantry. And in the process of investigating, I was reading all the articles. I went to the house, I befriended his wife, Mary, daughter, son, Michael. And I'm reading, I'm going through all the newspaper clippings, I'm going to the National Archives and I mean, I'm doing a deep dive into that case. Cause my God, it's a very good case. And I came upon a couple of articles, coincidentally, haphazardly, you know, written by a Corral Lorenzen of the U A, UFO Bulletin, I think it was called. And, um, she had talked about, uh, this landing Holloman.

• 2:58:45Speaker 00

  She interviewed someone that was in an airplane that witnessed it and someone that was on the ground at the base that witnessed it, both military officials. And apparently she was a respected journalist and, and I was like, hmm, this is interesting. Like this is an original, you know, article that I was looking at it like, hmm. And that led me to, uh, Bob, uh, uh, come on, uh, the two guys that made the film, uh, UFO's past president, future Eminem and Alan Sandler. And Eminem in particular, and then of course that led me to Colonel William Coleman, who had that dramatic encounter, uh, with UFO and P 55 over Alabama. But also he was later on part of Project Blue Book. He was a public spokesman for the, for the Pentagon during the time the film was being made.

• 2:59:28Speaker 00

  And I started poking around and started as a side investigation, I started to look into the landing case that they kind of, um, put forth as a concept that may, and I, and I, to something that might've happened already, that maybe would happen in the future in their film, right? And, uh, and then that led me to, uh, To do Emanegger, who talked with the guy Paul Shartle, who's at the archive, processed the film of the landing, talked about it in great detail. I interviewed Bob Emanegger, which I'm going to release for free. All my archives coming up soon. It's been so busy. That's amazing. I digitized them all and they're all digitized now. I just have to go through them and edit them and I'm gonna, and I'm gonna put them all out there for free for everybody. Cool. Um, uh, but anyway, and, and based on that, and then Alan Sandler was shown the footage

• 3:00:13Speaker 00

  by Paul Shartle. He's convinced that it was a real flying saucer. No question about it. Three came in over the base, two peeled away, one came down and landed. And he goes, James, just like in a, in a sci-fi movie, there was no, there was like a seamless door that just opened and dropped. Alan Sandler happens to think that it was our technology in this, whenever it was shown to him in the seventies, I think he was showed it in 72, 73, but it was taken in the sixties, I believe, is what Paul Shartle said. Um, and he thinks it was our technology, our flying saucers that we had, and they dressed people up to look like aliens as a staged event. But he goes, it wasn't doctored. It was a real flying saucer

• 3:00:54Speaker 00

  that really flew and that really came down and landed over the base. And it was filmed on a tripod, which means they anticipated it coming. Cause you don't have a tripod, camera sitting on tripod, unless they're filming something else unrelated and then the event happened. Either that, or they just saw it happening. Because I asked those details. And he said they were met with a bunch of, uh, military base commanders in uniform, got into a Jeep, off they went. Discs just sat there on the ground and then the film footage ends. He thinks it was staged? He thinks it was a real disc, real technology, real flying saucer that really flew in the sixties. And that it was a, that's what he thinks. Why does he, why does he think that? I don't know. I guess it was hard for him to imagine that real aliens. I don't, I really don't know. Okay. But he said that they had.

• 3:01:39Jesse Michels?

  Egyptian

• 3:01:40Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 3:01:40Jesse Michels?

  Headdresses.

• 3:01:41Speaker 00

  Big noses, slit from mouth. Tall. Yeah, kinda tall, not, not short.

• 3:01:45Jesse Michels?

  So what was the?

• 3:01:46Speaker 00

  And some sort of device that they assumed would have been a communication device.

• 3:01:50Jesse Michels?

  Okay, but if he's saying that, is that like, were there makeup artists involved?

• 3:01:55Speaker 00

  Like, why? Evidently, there would have been, according to him.

• 3:01:57Jesse Michels?

  They dressed them up in Egyptian?

• 3:01:59Speaker 00

  Everything was like bullshit. That was a real event. It was an extraterrestrial. Paul Shartle, who had the footage, who processed the footage in Northern Air Force Base, absolutely to his death, said that was a real event. And then, of course, I'm talking to other people that have subsequent, since then, particularly, he's come out with it. Eric Davis said that, uh, either he was told about it, President Bush was either senior, was either told about it or shown it. I can't remember. Do you know?

• 3:02:26Jesse Michels?

  I don't know.

• 3:02:27Speaker 00

  Said that he talked to President Bush about it.

• 3:02:29Jesse Michels?

  I, I know there's some relation there, but I don't know.

• 3:02:31Speaker 00

  As head of the CIA, he was made aware of it accidentally, and that's how he became aware of it. But I don't know if he was shown it. Eric Davis would know.

• 3:02:37Jesse Michels?

  Hmm. So fascinating. Well, we could go back and forth all day, man. I love talking to you, and you're such a treasure trove of deep knowledge when it comes to UFOs and inspiration.

• 3:02:48Speaker 00

  I don't really feel like that. I, I know what I know, talking directly to witnesses around the world, and that's it, but you have a much deeper understanding of so many of the complexities and intricacies from what you do. And I respect it, but it's great. We complement each other.

• 3:03:02Jesse Michels?

  I don't know. I don't know anything, man.

• 3:03:04Speaker 00

  Neither do I.

• 3:03:05Jesse Michels?

  I know, I know less than I did when I, it's the more you know, the less you know, you know?

• 3:03:09Speaker 00

  Totally.

• 3:03:09Jesse Michels?

  And the more, the more questions you have, and the weirder it gets. You expect it to neatly collapse into, oh, it's like either all man-made, you know, anti-gravity vehicles plus, plus MKUltra or whatever.

• 3:03:24Speaker 00

  Right.

• 3:03:24Jesse Michels?

  And then you go, or, or it's just these beings, and they're like from this specific place, and you're like, no. And it's like, I haven't gotten either of those. Like, it just keeps getting weirder and weirder, as I'm sure you've experienced, and so. Please, you know, don't put me in that position.

• 3:03:38Speaker 00

  Go out under the night sky in the remote desert and look up and just realize just how vast the known universe is.

• 3:03:45Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 3:03:46Speaker 00

  And the possibilities of life. One of the things we covered out of the blue very early on was like the equations of the possibilities of life.

• 3:03:55Jesse Michels?

  Yes.

• 3:03:55Speaker 00

  In the universe, and it's like a hundred percent, like it just comes out in a hundred. There was that book written by Amir Exel, Probability One, years ago, back in the nineties. You know, and it was like mathematically, we are not alone. Look.

• 3:04:09Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 3:04:10Speaker 00

  Come on.

• 3:04:10Jesse Michels?

  Yes.

• 3:04:11Speaker 00

  Could be all of you.

• 3:04:12Jesse Michels?

  And life is bizarre, life is absurd and bizarre. Consciousness itself is weird.

• 3:04:17Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 3:04:17Jesse Michels?

  What is happening? Nobody can, you know, has a great answer for that. And I think the framing of disclosure, it's both exciting because maybe we're on the precipice of this, you know, big reveal. But it's also kind of a misnomer because I think, you know, per the messages that maybe a lot of these beings seem to transmit, we're in more of a position ourselves to know the truth than we might realize. And I don't think the government has monopoly on an understanding of metaphysics. I do think they have asymmetric understanding of maybe some technology and they might have some more materials and might have some more footage and concrete evidence than civilians do. But the idea that they have some sort of like ontological understanding of the universe

• 3:05:01Jesse Michels?

  that like, you know, people can't achieve without them giving that info. I mean, great, let's, let's get the info. Amazing. But it's also like a low agency thing, you know, it's like we can, we can do it ourselves too. And, and, and, and anyone can understand this stuff if they reach for it. So, I don't know. Or, or, or, or understand it or, or, or, uh, understand more of it, you know, that one, you pull on one thread, you get like three more in its place. But, you know, I think we can ascend much greater, to much greater heights, kind of intellectually than, you know, we give ourselves credit for.

• 3:05:35Speaker 00

  One little thing. I'm kidding.

• 3:05:39Jesse Michels?

  You got some gummy bears and James Fox gummy bear?

• 3:05:42Speaker 00

  Just what, you know?

• 3:05:43Jesse Michels?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 3:05:44Speaker 00

  That's what I call.

• 3:05:44Jesse Michels?

  Speaking of which, my swag.

• 3:05:46Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 3:05:47Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 3:05:48Speaker 00

  But I want to thank you for having me on. I want to thank you for all your support. I really appreciate it.

• 3:05:52Jesse Michels?

  Oh, man.

• 3:05:53Speaker 00

  I really, I really mean that.

• 3:05:54Jesse Michels?

  No, it's an honor to get to know you and, and yeah, really, you know, ride in your, your wake that you've created, you know, aerodynamically, I get to, I get to.

• 3:06:03Speaker 00

  Hey, we're all in this together. We all make our contribution.

• 3:06:07Jesse Michels?

  Absolutely. Well, go check out, what's the, what's the, it's Moment of Contact 2.

• 3:06:12Speaker 00

  New revelations of alien encounters. It's got, we did a complete, because we really felt like, I felt like, you know, processing, you got all the congressional hearings, right? And then like, I, I think about mainstream, I think about skeptics. Fair enough. It's very healthy to be skeptical. But I think about trying to process like those allegations made under oath by Grush and Lou and all, all the others of crash retrievals and live aliens and biologics, right? So I kind of like took the first 20 minutes, completely knew, condensed those, those hearings as you saw, condensed those hearings and then, hey, you know what?

• 3:06:51Speaker 00

  As extraordinary as this sounds, it's not the first time. And I give really quick examples of various, you know, Magenta, we go to Italy, we, you know, Roswell, very quickly, I don't get bogged down in those old cases, but boom, boom, boom, you know, Kecksburg, Kingman, the landing at Bentwaters, just really good statements of craft, landing, landing or crash on the ground. And then, but the best case, you know, and then we do a deep dive into Virginia with all the new testimony from two forensic pathologists, from the chief of police, new crash witness, plus the lead neurosurgeon at regional hospital. And none of these people are coming forward in this new cut. No one is coming forward anonymously. They're putting their names, their reputations, their faces out there for the whole world to see.

• 3:07:36Jesse Michels?

  Yeah. Well, thank God they did. And thank God you went out there and, and got the footage and keep going back there. And yeah, it's just, it's an honor to, to speak with you. Go watch this movie because I think it's going to be, I think it's going to be earth shattering, especially. Watching Italo Ventorelli, this neurosurgeon, just his revelation just feels so important, this, this, this testimony of being face to face with an alien being for that long.

• 3:08:04Speaker 00

  I'm told it's the first time in history. Luckily, you know, we never had with Roswell, right? We didn't have with the gender on any of these other cases where we have.

• 3:08:11Jesse Michels?

  We don't have video of this. Yes.

• 3:08:14Speaker 00

  Yeah, I mean, obviously it would be great to get the ultimate prize, right?

• 3:08:17Jesse Michels?

  I mean, no, no, but you have video of him.

• 3:08:19Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 3:08:20Jesse Michels?

  And he, and he's still alive now.

• 3:08:22Speaker 00

  He's still alive. He's still alive. He's like, I asked him, would you put your hand on a Bible? Would you testify? You know, would you take a lot? Yes. All the above. Yes. And now the whole entire doctor, medical community in the region are all supporting him, getting behind him. And I'm told there are other doctors that are considering when the time is right to come forward. So we're at the beginning of the beginning. I'm, I'm, I'm quite honestly very excited about it and we'll see how it's received.

• 3:08:49Jesse Michels?

  Yeah. Well, let's hope your dream becomes a reality and if somebody slips a thumb drive, that's real in your pocket.

• 3:08:55Speaker 00

  Oh, believe me.

• 3:08:55Jesse Michels?

  Or maybe it goes down in a, in a, in a, in a way that's more manageable for you. I don't know.

• 3:08:59Speaker 00

  I'm trying. Even if it gets out there, and by the way, I'm going to make this abundantly clear. Unless I have to, if somebody gives me the footage, I'm giving it away for free. I'm not going to charge a dime for it.

• 3:09:12Jesse Michels?

  I love that.

• 3:09:12Speaker 00

  If I have to pay for it, I'll have to recoup my investing to pay those people back. And then I'll put it out there for free.

• 3:09:18Jesse Michels?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 3:09:18Speaker 00

  But if I get it, I'll give it to the world for free. I swear on my, unless I have to pay for it, reimburse the investors.

• 3:09:24Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 3:09:24Speaker 00

  Then I'll reimburse it and then I'll put it out there for free.

• 3:09:26Jesse Michels?

  Yeah, yeah. Go to jamesfox.com. It's behind a paywall.

• 3:09:31Speaker 00

  No, that won't happen. I promise.

• 3:09:33Jesse Michels?

  No, I think that's the right attitude, along with like, you know, wanting other people to follow up on your research.

• 3:09:40Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 3:09:41Jesse Michels?

  And you're, you're the paradigmatic example of that because you're having Amar, who's a good friend of mine and kind of.

• 3:09:48Speaker 00

  Such a cool guy.

• 3:09:49Jesse Michels?

  Yeah, the best. And he's kind of a correspondent for the show, but he's kind of, I think he's going to start his own thing.

• 3:09:53Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 3:09:54Jesse Michels?

  I hope. And he's gonna go get some amazing footage with you. Yes. You've been so welcoming to me and him as far as, you know, come with me. Oh, yeah. That's not normal in the space. There's, there are a lot of people, you know, they call, it's like, I want to get the quote unquote scoop. Yeah. And like, I'll even see like, I'll cover a thing and then somebody will try to like, front run the thing. It's like, and I'm always like, great, good, you cover it too. We'll both cover it. It's like, whatever. Power numbers. Yeah, yeah. It's like, we, you know, so I appreciate you. And this was, this was amazing, man. And I'm excited to, to do this and hopefully do this many more times. Thank you, brother. All right. Thank you, James. Bye. All right.

• 3:10:36Jesse Michels?

  Over the last couple of months, we've been designing the new American Alchemy merch drop. And I'm excited to say that the 2025 winter drop is finally ready. We now have 30 uniquely designed pieces that really reflect what American Alchemy is all about. This drop includes epic t-shirts, long sleeves, crewnecks, hoodies, tapered sweatpants, hats, totes, mugs, and tumblers. The Fukushima Japan pieces, for example, have detailed left chest embroidery. The Morning of Earth designs went through multiple revisions to get the fit exactly right. And the Iron Horse tee is something I think will be a hit for anyone who loved the UFO cowboy or our Atomic Aid shirts from our last drop. We cut a lot of things that didn't meet our standards and we're really, really proud of each of these items.

• 3:11:19Jesse Michels?

  Everything is pretty limited, so there's no endless restocks. Once it's gone, it's entirely gone. If you missed anything from our original drops and you want to go out and represent, now's the time to go grab something. So go to americanalchemymerch.com to check it all out.

• 3:12:00Speaker 27

  Now, more than ever, we need someone on our side. But Rob Whitman? Whitman's votes drove up costs, cut Medicaid, and risked 350,000 Virginians' health care to pay for tax breaks for himself and his donors. He's not on our side. Shannon Taylor will fight corruption, cut taxes, and bring down costs. This November, vote for Shannon Taylor. She's for us. Paid for by HMP, the HouseMajorityPac.com. Not authorized by any candidate or candidate's committee.