Pod Insights The Oprah Podcast Sophie Chen Keller: "Little Wonder" | Oprah's Book Club About this episode BUY THE BOOK!
"Little Wonder" https://amzn.to/4fKGVhl by Sophie Chen Keller
To find all of the Oprah’s Book Club selections and 30 of Oprah’s most memorable reads, visit: http://www.amazon.com/obc http://www.amazon.com/obc
Oprah’s Book Club 124th selection is Little Wonder by author Sophie Chen Keller. Oprah and Sophie sit down with an enthusiastic audience of readers to discuss Sophie's childhood spent both in the USA and China and how that experience impacted her writing. She also shares how becoming a mother for the first time was the inspiration for Little Wonder. The story is about a profound bond of love that connects a mother, Song, to her son, named River. A cataclysmic roller coaster of events is set in motion when Song loses hold of River’s hand in the teeming crowds at a Beijing train station. Throughout this story of love, perseverance and hope mother and son desperately seek to find their way back to each other. Readers share that the climactic end had them in tears. Audience members also share the passages that moved them the most and ask questions of Sophie.
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Transcript Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.
0:00 Speaker 00 For the first two years of my son's life, I was just completely consumed by mothering in the very best ways and also in challenging ways. I was sleeping one or two hours at a time. And so I learned just how much exhaustion I could carry around. My son was an intense, sensitive baby, so he did a lot of screaming.
0:20 Oprah Winfrey? Oh, that's how you describe it, okay. I'll try. It was intense and sensitive, yes.
0:26 Speaker 00 So I just had the sense that my life no longer belonged to me. I missed my old life and my old self.
0:33 Oprah Winfrey? You're describing all young mothers, yes.
0:35 Speaker 00 So I opened up my laptop, opened up a Word doc, and I started writing this book.
0:40 Oprah Winfrey? And you did so well.
0:45 Oprah Winfrey? Hi, everybody. It's wonderful to be here with you on the Oprah Podcast. This year, we are celebrating the 30th anniversary of Oprah's Book Club. Let's just...
1:02 Oprah Winfrey? I'm in awe of that. All thanks to all of you who have been reading with me for now 30 years. And I think that that reading is one of the the great joys of life. And we have many more fantastic books coming up this year. So much more to come. But it is my pleasure to share my 124th Book Club selection, "Little Wonder, Little Wonder," by Sophie Chen Keller. The novel is actually a big wonder, full of a lot of astonishing drama. It's the story of a mother and her young son, who is a piano prodigy.
1:45 Oprah Winfrey? And they become separated by forces beyond their control in Beijing, China. It's an extraordinary journey about a mother's love, really. And it's about perseverance and the transformative power of music. Welcome, Sophie Chen Keller, to the Oprah Podcast.
2:05 Speaker 00 Thank you so much for having me.
2:06 Oprah Winfrey? So glad to have you here.
2:11 Oprah Winfrey? So, I have to say, everyone in our audience has read the book. I'd love to hear from a few of you. So Shelby, what did you think?
2:19 Speaker 02 Hi Oprah, thank you so much for having me. I'm thrilled to be here. Sophie, I loved your book. I could speak forever about how much I love, overall, what you had written, but I actually wanted to touch on a smaller detail that really resonated with me personally. I'm a tap dancer, professionally, which means I'm a musician, and, more specifically, a percussionist. And so, I've often noticed the rhythms in the world around me in a way that maybe others wouldn't. And so, I particularly loved and was so intrigued by your choice to have River noticing the inanimate objects around him as music notes, like a horn honking at a G-flat. And that was such a nice reminder throughout the book as to what a musical prodigy River was.
3:04 Speaker 02 And it was in those small details that you wrote that I found the book to be particularly special.
3:10 Oprah Winfrey? Yeah, you know, I'd never even thought of that because I'm not, like, musically inclined at all, so I don't know a G-flat from a C. So, uh, it's interesting that that's the way you look at the world, too. Is that the way you hear things?
3:22 Speaker 02 Yeah, um, well, as a tap dancer, I noticed the rhythms more so than the notes. Um, so I might notice that we're in triplets, like a train track is moving in triplets versus hearing the notes like River does. Yeah, one end, two end.
3:37 Oprah Winfrey? Really? Oh, that's pretty cool. Andrew.
3:41 Speaker 03 Hi Oprah, hi Sophie. Um, I loved your book. Um, the character that I resonated with the most was, obviously, River. Um, I'm a child of immigrants and, um, like River's mother, growing up, I feel like my mom, who was also a single mother, like, she gave up so much and sacrificed so much that, so that I could grow up with better circumstances than what she grew up in. Um, in the book, River talks about how it only takes two people to make a world. And I found it really meaningful that, despite the circumstances of the story and despite how much time they spend apart, um, the world that song and River share is made up of, like, love and playfulness and music. So I really loved that.
4:20 Oprah Winfrey? Yeah, I love the names too, don't you? Song and River. All right, so let's, let's get to it. You were born in China and raised in California and Ohio.
4:30 Speaker 00 Yes.
4:30 Oprah Winfrey? And you grew up with your mother reading to you, and that's what gave you a love for writing?
4:34 Speaker 00 Yes.
4:35 Oprah Winfrey? Yeah.
4:36 Speaker 00 Yeah, I came to the US when I was four, and so my first language was Mandarin Chinese. I didn't speak any English yet. And so to help me learn, my mom would check out stacks of books from the library. And every night before bed, she would spend an hour reading out loud to me until she lost her voice. And so I grew up loving these children's classics like James and the Giant Peach and Charlotte's Web. And as soon as I could hold a pencil, I was scribbling little stories of my own. If anyone asked me what I wanted to be when I grew up, I said, "I want to be a writer." And when I was 13, I wrote a short story about a pedicab driver in rural China.
5:19 Speaker 00 And this story was just plucked out of the slush pile by the editors at Glimmer Train Leary Magazine. And that became my first publication. And
5:28 Oprah Winfrey? You were 13, did you say?
5:29 Speaker 00 Yeah, I was 13 about this story. And the issue came out when I was in high school. I remember bringing author copies
5:35 Oprah Winfrey? That's gotta be just so exciting when you get published.
5:38 Speaker 00 I was so excited. And I was handing these issues to my friends and teachers. But then when I went to college, I thought I'd better be practical. And so I majored in economics. And after graduating, I worked for a few years in the corporate world. And before my husband and I were married, we were talking about our dreams for the future. And we thought, why not pursue those, those dreams today? We'll hold hands and close our eyes and just take this jump together. And so we both quit our jobs. And he went back to graduate school. And I started writing what
6:14 Oprah Winfrey? His dream was to go to graduate school?
6:16 Speaker 00 Well, he worked in finance originally. And he wanted to, he wanted to save the world. And so he went back to graduate school and majored in law and diplomacy.
6:23 Oprah Winfrey? Okay.
6:24 Speaker 00 Yeah.
6:24 Oprah Winfrey? And yours was to write?
6:26 Speaker 00 And mine was to write. It always has been. And so that was, you know, almost 10 years ago. And it all came.
6:33 Oprah Winfrey? So how did you? So it's one thing to dream, but you gotta eat. So how did you?
6:38 Oprah Winfrey? How did you plan on taking care of yourself?
6:40 Speaker 00 It was really, my husband enabled it all. He likes to save. He's German, frugal, so.
6:47 Oprah Winfrey? OK, OK. So Little Wonder, your second novel. And you started writing this book, I understand, when you were in, you were staying for a while in Beijing?
6:56 Speaker 00 Yes.
6:57 Oprah Winfrey? Yeah.
6:57 Speaker 00 So in 2019, we moved from New Jersey to Beijing. My son was four months old at the time. And we were moving from my husband's work. And when I got to China, this version of China in 2019 was totally different from the China I remembered as a child. The city was super modern and clean and beautiful. At the same time, the air pollution was so heavy, you could see it hanging like a thick fog. And I saw lots of very rich people living alongside lots of very poor people. And regardless of their socioeconomic status, everyone lived these technologically advanced lives. You know, they would just leave their homes in the morning with only a phone in their pocket.
7:42 Speaker 00 There was no need for a wallet. Everything was virtually cashless. I remember the first time I saw a beggar collecting change, not in a Styrofoam cup, but with a QR code. And you would scan it and just send them money directly into their, their mobile wallet.
7:57 Oprah Winfrey? Is that what beggars are doing now?
7:59 Speaker 00 Some of them were. And I was, yeah.
8:02 Oprah Winfrey? Have you all seen that? I have not. Beggars with a QR code. OK. And you scan the QR code to give the?
8:11 Speaker 00 Yeah, and you'll just, yeah. It's actually very, very easy and convenient.
8:16 Oprah Winfrey? Okay, alright.
8:18 Speaker 00 So we settled into our new routines there and as part of mine, I would take my son out for these long walks because he napped in a moving stroller. So I would just walk around for two hours and observe everything around me. And I was struck by just the sheer number of delivery workers that filled the streets. And delivery workers of all kinds. There would be package delivery workers and they would just set up shop in the middle of the sidewalks, surrounded by all their boxes and their bubble wrap. And there would be grocery delivery workers, there were the food delivery workers. They normally wore bright yellow uniforms and they would literally sprint past me in the streets, carrying their orders.
9:02 Speaker 00 And I was really curious about them. I wondered if they made their delivery on time and I wondered-
9:09 Oprah Winfrey? Were they on bikes?
9:10 Speaker 00 No, on foot.
9:11 Oprah Winfrey? On foot?
9:11 Speaker 00 They would hold their bags on foot, literally sprinting past me as I pushed my little stroller. And-
9:17 Oprah Winfrey? Wow.
9:18 Speaker 00 Yeah, and I wondered where they had come from. I wondered what their stories were and what the job was like and what their lives were like. And so I just followed my wonder and that was the beginning of Who Song Would Be.
9:30 Oprah Winfrey? You followed your wonder? Is that why it came, that's where the title came from?
9:35 Speaker 00 The title actually came at the end, after the manuscript was done. And as I was brainstorming ideas, this phrase, "little wonder," jumped out at me because it just encapsulates the way we feel when we're holding a little baby and looking into that little face. It's just full of awe and affection.
9:57 Oprah Winfrey? So how did the story of, of, of, of the mother and the son come to you?
10:03 Speaker 00 Well, at the time, I had just become a mom.
10:06 Oprah Winfrey? Yeah.
10:07 Speaker 00 And motherhood was all I was thinking about. You know, for the first two years of my son's life, I was just completely consumed by mothering in the very best ways and also in challenging ways. I learned just how much love I could carry around, but to go with that, how much worry. You know, everything, I was constantly Googling various symptoms and everything became a potential problem that had to be solved. And, you know, I was sleeping one or two hours at a time. And so I learned just how much exhaustion I could carry around. Um, my son was an intense, sensitive baby, so he did a lot of screaming.
10:50 Oprah Winfrey? Oh, that's how you describe it, okay. Okay.
10:54 Speaker 00 And the only-
10:54 Oprah Winfrey? Intense and sensitive, yes. Lot of screaming, got it.
10:59 Speaker 00 And the only thing that consoled him was bouncing on this yoga ball. So I would, all day and all night, just hold him on my shoulder and bounce him on this yoga ball. And for the first year of his life, he had a cow's milk protein allergy, which meant that I had to cut dairy and soy out of my diet. And so I just had the sense that my life no longer belonged to me. And I missed my old life and my old self, where I could eat whatever I wanted. I could use the bathroom by myself in peace. I could-
11:33 Oprah Winfrey? You're describing all young mothers, yes.
11:35 Speaker 00 Yeah, and have a cup of coffee without microwaving it five times before getting a chance to finish it. And, you know what, as it turns out, time just keeps going on and everything is temporary, every hard phase passes. And one day, baby is just older. And then you start incorporating elements of the old self into the new one.
11:58 Oprah Winfrey? Yeah.
11:59 Speaker 00 And for me, that happened in earnest when my son started daycare. And I went from having no time to myself to suddenly having this glorious stretch of hours every morning. And so I opened up my laptop, opened up a Word doc, and I started writing this book. And I got to talk about all those motherhood-related things I had been dying to talk about.
12:23 Oprah Winfrey? And you did so well. So how do you write? Do you write, like, every day or?
12:28 Speaker 00 Yeah, I like structure, so I have a simple routine I try to keep to. Um, I have a cup of coffee in the morning and then I start writing. And the most important thing for me is that I have no distraction. And so I do my writing from bed because this is the place where no one is bothering me. And I'm totally relaxed and comfortable. I'm not distracted by a squeaky chair or my back hurting or anything. And I can just totally focus on the words on the screen. And the other thing I need is to have a long stretch of time to produce a short stretch of words.
13:07 Speaker 00 I do about 700 words a day and it takes me five, six, seven, eight hours to produce that. Um, I think my brain is like a slow cooker and it just, it just slowly breaks down the scene and lets the emotions and elements mingle and hopefully deepen.
13:26 Oprah Winfrey? Wow. Every day, though, you do it?
13:29 Speaker 00 Monday through Friday, every day. But I have become less precious about my routine now that I have two kids. Um, when the edits for Little Wonder came in, my daughter was four months old. And so I did those edits with her sleeping on my chest and I would type one-handed on my laptop. I was still in bed, so this was the similar part of the routine.
13:52 Oprah Winfrey? Wow. We want to really talk about what the book, the story is about without giving away too much. So set up the characters for us and the plot.
14:00 Speaker 00 Sure. So, um, the book starts with a mother, Song, and her 11-year-old son, River. And he's a piano prodigy.
14:09 Oprah Winfrey? Did it take you a long time to decide those names or did you just, those names come to you?
14:13 Speaker 00 They came to me, um, pretty easily.
14:16 Oprah Winfrey? Okay, okay.
14:17 Speaker 00 Yeah. And, um, They get separated in a crowded train station in Beijing over the Chinese New Year. And there are so many people traveling during this period of time that it's been called the biggest human migration on the planet. So the train station is packed and they're not able to find each other again. And so they spend, you know, years of their lives searching for each other while having to make new and very different lives for themselves.
14:46 Oprah Winfrey? So this is so interesting. When I was reading the book for the first time, I had to Google Beijing train station because I couldn't understand how you could just lose somebody in a train station and then you're never going to see them again.
15:01 Speaker 00 Yeah.
15:02 Oprah Winfrey? It's a big train station.
15:04 Speaker 00 It's a big train station. Also, there are just so, so many people and...
15:09 Oprah Winfrey? There are like millions of people.
15:11 Speaker 00 Yeah, there are a lot of people. And, you know, so much of this book hinges on injustice and inequality. And that's part of the reason they can't find each other because Song is who she is.
15:23 Oprah Winfrey? Because she is.
15:25 Speaker 00 In her mind, she's a nobody and people don't care about her.
15:30 Oprah Winfrey? I didn't understand in the beginning, why wouldn't they just go on Facebook?
15:33 Speaker 00 Well, Chinese, the Chinese do have social media, but they don't have American, Western social media apps. They don't have a Facebook equivalent. The way their social media works is in order to find someone, you need to have their QR code to scan or you need their number or at least be in sort of the same social circles. Otherwise, you know, there are so many people, there aren't that many names. You know, you would never find her. It's like a needle in a haystack.
16:01 Oprah Winfrey? That's why.
16:02 Speaker 00 Yeah.
16:02 Oprah Winfrey? All right. Our listeners tell us that the podcast is resonating with you and is serving as a bright spot in your day. That means a lot to me. So here's the thing, I would really appreciate it if you like and subscribe to the Oprah Podcast on YouTube or wherever you podcast. It's just a quick tap of the subscribe button and that way you won't miss an episode in your queue. You don't have to pay anything. I know subscribe usually means you're paying something, but this time it means you just are notified when there's something new. There are many more to come that we're excited about. So thank you for watching and listening. We need to take a short break. When we return, Sophie shares about her own
16:44 Oprah Winfrey? experience healing from thyroid cancer and how it inspired parts of the book. Stay with us. Thank you for listening to the Oprah Podcast. I'm with Sophie Chen Keller. She's the author of my 124th Oprah's Book Club pick, Little Wonder. Let's get back to our conversation. So, readers say that you have this uncanny ability to write from the point of view of the child, especially boys. You were able to do that in your first novel. What is that, do you think?
17:13 Speaker 00 There are periods of my life that I remember especially vividly, and childhood is one of them.
17:20 Oprah Winfrey? Really?
17:21 Speaker 00 Yeah. At the time, I was living, we were living in Columbus, Ohio, and my parents were graduate students. So, we lived in this housing complex for graduate student families similar to ours. And I remember the friends I made there, and I remember playing with them all day in the summers until the sun set. And I remember catching fireflies. I remember how big the world seemed and how magical these bedtime stories were. And so, it was easy for me to access memories of that magical time.
17:57 Oprah Winfrey? Wow.
17:58 Speaker 00 And actually, the first versions of this book had much less of River's perspective. It was mainly Song's journey and Song's story. And with each iteration of the book, River's role grew. And that's because Song's life is difficult, and her perspective can start feeling quite heavy. But River, as a child, he approaches the world with openness, with more wonder. And so, the world takes on this almost magical quality.
18:33 Oprah Winfrey? And is he a musical prodigy because you liked music?
18:36 Speaker 00 Exactly, yes.
18:37 Oprah Winfrey? Okay.
18:38 Speaker 00 Yeah, I drew a lot of parallels between my own musical background and River's journey as a pianist.
18:43 Oprah Winfrey? So, you grew up with piano?
18:45 Speaker 00 So, I started playing, learning the piano when I was seven years old. My mom signed me up for group piano lessons at the local library. And, you know, I enjoy the lessons. And so she found a private instructor for me. And she bought me a used piano for $500. And, you know, at the time, they were teaching assistants. Um, my parents are.
19:09 Oprah Winfrey? She bought you a used piano. This is important. She bought you a used piano for $500. She was only making $900.
19:15 Speaker 00 Exactly. She was only making 900, my dad as well, 900 each. And, um, we didn't, so we didn't have the resources to spare for things like this. But my mom did it.
19:25 Oprah Winfrey? I just wanted to share that because that's a lot. If you're only making 900, a piano costs 500.
19:29 Speaker 00 It's a big sacrifice.
19:30 Oprah Winfrey? You gotta sacrifice and sacrifice and sacrifice for your daughter to be able to have piano lessons.
19:35 Speaker 00 Yeah, exactly, yeah.
19:37 Oprah Winfrey? And I understand too that there were, a few years ago, you had thyroid cancer.
19:41 Speaker 00 Right.
19:42 Oprah Winfrey? Now you're cancer free.
19:43 Speaker 00 Yes.
19:44 Oprah Winfrey? Happy to hear that.
19:44 Speaker 00 It's a very treatable form.
19:49 Oprah Winfrey? Weren't you, like, when you were first diagnosed with the cancer, you didn't know it was so easily treatable and you, you had some moments of not despair, but at least feeling not like yourself.
20:03 Speaker 00 Right, right.
20:05 Oprah Winfrey? And were able to overcome that.
20:07 Speaker 00 Yes, um, you know, I think that, so with this book, um, it's been a long journey. Um, it's been a long, winding and bumpy road. My first book came out, uh, almost 10 years ago. And in the next few years, I worked on a different book. And my agent at the time, my first agent, he didn't like it and he dropped me. And then I spent years working on Little Wonder. And my second agent saw an earlier version of Little Wonder and she didn't like it. She dropped me too. And in the midst of all of that, I was diagnosed with thyroid cancer. And, you know, each time I was knocked back, I thought about the story that I wanted to tell
20:52 Speaker 00 and how I can make it more powerful. And each time, the thought of implementing those changes made me excited. And I kept reminding myself, in any good story, you have to face obstacles and you have to keep going. And you have to face more obstacles and you still have to keep going. And you have to hit rock bottom and you still have to keep going before things can turn around. And so for me, the difference between despairing and giving up and persisting and keeping the faith was not so much the things that happened to me, how many good, how many bad, but the narrative I could tell myself of the things that happened to me and the way I could connect and interpret those events. And-
21:36 Oprah Winfrey? That's how we're supposed to live life. It's not about what happens, but it's your response to what happens.
21:41 Speaker 00 Right.
21:41 Oprah Winfrey? So every time you were set back, you didn't give up.
21:44 Speaker 00 Right, exactly.
21:45 Oprah Winfrey? Yeah.
21:45 Speaker 00 Yeah.
21:46 Oprah Winfrey? And then I called.
21:48 Speaker 00 Oh, my gosh. I can't believe it still. I can't believe I'm sitting here talking to you.
21:54 Oprah Winfrey? And you've said that that experience of having thyroid cancer informed the mother, Song, and Song's journey. Tell us how.
22:07 Speaker 00 So when I started writing the book, I didn't know what exactly Song's journey would look like. I didn't have the plot points mapped out. And I didn't know where things were headed. I just took it a day at a time. And as I was approaching the end, I felt like it would be bittersweet because a straightforward happily ever after is just not in the cards for someone like Song. But I tried one way and it wasn't working. And I tried rewriting a different way and it still wasn't resonating. And around that time, I went to the doctor for my normal annual checkup. And you know how they feel along the sides of your neck? Yeah.
22:49 Speaker 00 And this time she was feeling and she found a lump and it turned out to be thyroid cancer. And I was totally shocked because I'm in my 30s and I had no other complaints. But luckily thyroid cancer is very treatable. So as you said, I'm back to 100%. But going through all of that, I understand now what it feels like to
23:11 Oprah Winfrey? Did you have to do chemotherapy?
23:13 Speaker 00 No, they do, they remove the thyroid, it's thyroidectomy and then you do what's called radioactive iodine therapy. Yeah. But I understand now what it feels like to carry around this uncertainty as you're waiting for your diagnosis and you're waiting for surgery and treatment, you're waiting to recover, then you're waiting for your follow-ups and you have to do all of this waiting while carrying out your normal day-to-day life. You have to take care of the kids.
23:40 Oprah Winfrey? Because life does not stop.
23:41 Speaker 00 It doesn't.
23:42 Oprah Winfrey? Anybody who's had cancer or been ill understands that.
23:45 Speaker 00 Yeah, exactly. And so I drew on all of that as I wrote Song's journey as she is waiting to find her son while, you know, at the same time trying to build a new life for herself. And I drew on it especially with the ending. You know, Song doesn't get thyroid cancer, but I hope my specific emotional truth is what makes her journey feel authentic and universal.
24:10 Oprah Winfrey? It's time now for a break. Up next, Sophie Chen Keller answers questions from readers and reveals how her study of music inspired this poignant story. More on that when we come back.
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24:53 Oprah Winfrey? Thank you for listening to the Oprah Podcast. We're talking about my latest book club selection, Little Wonder, by author Sophie Chen Keller. Here we go. Well, this entire audience has read the book. That must feel good as a writer, right?
25:07 Speaker 00 Oh, it's amazing. This is the first, you know, early feedback. So it's just, it's really cool. The book has been just mine for so long and now it's...
25:15 Oprah Winfrey? Now it belongs to us. So the whole audience has read the book and so many people have questions for you. Julie, what's your question?
25:25 Speaker 05 Well, Oprah, if I can tell you first that I've been learning from you since I was eight and you are not only the best teacher that I've ever had, but the greatest influence in my life outside of my immediate family. And I just, my goal was to just say thank you. So, thank you.
25:37 Oprah Winfrey? Thank you. Thank you for that.
25:39 Speaker 05 And Sophie, I think you may have touched on my question...
25:41 Oprah Winfrey? Did you say eight years old you've been watching?
25:43 Speaker 05 Forty-seven, yeah. Sorry.
25:50 Oprah Winfrey? Appreciate that.
25:53 Speaker 05 But Sophie, I am a new empty nester and I am loving this season of life after being a stay-at-home mom, but I know a lot of other mothers are really struggling with purpose and finding their purpose after their children leave home. And in your story, Song seems to devote her entire life to River and is lost without him. Were you trying to explore the idea that motherhood can both fulfill and erase a woman at the same time?
26:21 Speaker 00 I think motherhood can change our lives and ourselves into something different and even unrecognizable at times. I think for Song, this concept of balancing being a mom with having a life outside of the kids is not at all on her mind because her life simply does not allow for it. She spends nearly every waking moment working to survive and support her family. She doesn't have the time or the resources to cultivate a hobby or go on vacation or even meet a friend for coffee.
27:06 Speaker 00 You know, her courtship with Blue, they don't sit down and have a meal together or go out and do a fun activity. They are getting to know each other while walking to and from, from work.
27:19 Oprah Winfrey? All right. Lefern?
27:21 Speaker 06 Yes. Thank you, Oprah. What an amazing story. I never thought, when I started reading, that I would see so many parallels with my own life. I went back to the days when I started playing piano. I played musical instruments from a young age. My solo mom, with my father, gave me one of the best gifts I've ever had. And it was an old upright piano and piano lessons. And I heard you talk about how much your mom made and how much the piano costs. And I can remember a season in my own mother's life where she was doing day's work,
28:04 Speaker 06 making $25 a day, and paid $75 for this old upright piano. Fast forward. When I think back to the music and how it makes me remember who I am, after many different life transitions, I decided to gift myself with a piano, and I did a few years ago. I thought about Tchaikovsky's Concerto Number One and what an emotional piece it is. What made you specifically select that piece to be what I see as the spine of the story?
28:42 Oprah Winfrey? Come on, Lafrenz. Come on, Lafrenz. And before you even answer that, I just want to say, where were you born and raised?
28:55 Speaker 06 Maryland. So I remember you in Baltimore.
28:57 Oprah Winfrey? In Baltimore in those early days. But I think here's a beautiful Maryland woman who has nothing in common with this boy in Beijing, and the music connects you through the story and the words that you've written. That's the beauty of books. That is the real wonder of books, isn't it?
29:17 Speaker 06 It is.
29:18 Oprah Winfrey? That you would see yourself in that boy's story. Pretty amazing.
29:22 Speaker 06 It is.
29:22 Speaker 00 It is.
29:24 Oprah Winfrey? I could cry for you right now, Sophie. It's so amazing.
29:29 Speaker 00 So there are a handful of concertos that have taken on this mythical status. There are movies made about them. They strike fear into the heart of every pianist, and they're widely regarded as some of the most difficult pieces a pianist can learn.
29:58 Speaker 00 And I wanted to choose one of those legendary concertos to represent this dream of greatness that Song and River have. And I chose Tchaikovsky's First because it felt so much like this book itself. It's big and sweeping with equally big emotions. And it's noble enough to feel like a homecoming, but nostalgic enough to feel like a home calling.
30:29 Speaker 06 Thank you.
30:31 Oprah Winfrey? Thank you. And are the book notes hidden on the cover?
30:34 Speaker 00 Yes, so those notes on the power line are not just random notes. If you play them, you hear the opening melody to Tchaikovsky's First Piano Concerto.
30:49 Speaker 00 It's the melody played by the strings.
30:50 Oprah Winfrey? Oh.
30:52 Speaker 00 Now you have to try playing it, yeah.
30:53 Oprah Winfrey? Little secret there. Angela, what did you want to say?
30:58 Speaker 07 First of all, I wanted to say hi.
30:59 Oprah Winfrey? Hi.
30:59 Speaker 07 Oprah.
31:00 Oprah Winfrey? Thank you.
31:01 Speaker 07 And I really, really enjoyed the book.
31:06 Oprah Winfrey? What did you appreciate about the story?
31:08 Speaker 07 I really appreciated the fact that it showed real people, meaning working class and poor people, because there's another, you know, and also that it was contemporary and modern. You know, Song had a really tough life, but there were pockets of joy. I just wanted to know, like, about your class politic and, you know, kind of where, how it was informed. And has it changed any in the last few years?
31:38 Speaker 00 So, growing up, I was aware of the differences between what I had and what my cousins had. Going back for the summer, I would come with a suitcase full of clothes and they would have two or three outfits that they rotated between the whole summer. And I understood that the difference was because I lived in the US and my parents were educated. And as a kid, I kind of just accepted it as a fact. And I didn't have any other reference point. I only lived with my relatives when I went back to China. But then, when I moved to Beijing and I lived there as an adult, I saw all that the city had to offer for those who could afford it,
32:23 Speaker 00 you know, the wealthy, the powerful, the educated. And as an expat, I lived in a central location, and I lived in a nice, high-rise compound. And I could go to nice restaurants. I could install heavy-duty air purifiers. I could buy imported fruits and vegetables and drink filtered, imported water. And that kind of life is, it runs parallel to the lives lived by all the migrant workers who built the city, but they can't afford to live in it and they can't enjoy all that it has to offer.
33:04 Speaker 00 But I also know life on the other side of that parallel track. My uncle, for a time, lived and worked in Beijing as a taxi driver. And when I went to visit him, he lived way, way outside of the city in this area that smelled so strongly of sewage because these homes didn't have flushing toilets. So people would empty their waste and their trash right outside their door in an open canal. And so it's a bit of an interesting perspective, having lived on both sides of this track that otherwise would never touch.
33:43 Oprah Winfrey? And so having lived on both sides of the track has given you the, you know, not only the material, but also an understanding of a world that, you know, most people will never see or don't understand. And so you become the voice for that world.
33:59 Speaker 00 Right, and you really see the distance between them when you've been at both points.
34:05 Oprah Winfrey? At both points.
34:05 Speaker 00 Yeah.
34:06 Oprah Winfrey? Maitesh, yes? Yeah. Thanks, Sophie, so much for joining us for this conversation today.
34:12 Speaker 06 Really enjoyed following the emotional journeys of Song and River, the ups and downs that they faced over the years. I was curious how you thought about telling this story through flashbacks and, in particular, setting the start of it, or rather, like, the core incident in 2016. As you mentioned, a lot of the things like delivery and the ubiquity of smartphones, that feels like it could have happened today. So what made you want to set it in 2016?
34:41 Speaker 00 So China's development is interesting because it went through leaps where it changed a lot in a short period of time. And I got to personally witness these leaps through my visits each time I went back to see my family in the Northeast. One summer I would go back and the streets would be made of dirt and people are using cash and they don't have so much of it. They're just trying to keep their bellies full. And the next time I go back, those same streets are paved and broadened and landscaped with trees and flowers and people have more cash and they're buying appliances with it or landline phones.
35:25 Speaker 00 And then, when I moved there in 2019, the cash was gone and everything was done on a smartphone. And for the structure and the flashbacks, originally, the story was written in chronological order and it started with River's birth in the Northeast. And as it was progressing, it wasn't feeling right. It didn't have the right balance. It's like when you're eating a dish of food and it's only sweet or only salty. It gets one-dimensional. But if it's sweet and salty and bitter and acidic and spicy and all of the flavors, each bite is exciting and you want to keep eating.
36:08 Speaker 00 And so that's what I wanted from the structure of the book. And so I started at different points in time and I must have completely torn down and rewritten the whole book at least three or four times. And one day, I was facing yet another total teardown and rewrite when I had this sudden, very clear, but very random image in my mind of a braid. And I didn't know what it meant. But then I started thinking, you know, there are three strands to the story. Song's story in the present, I'll call that strand A. Song's story in the past, I'll call that B. And River's story, I'll call that C. And I wonder what happens if I just start braiding them.
36:53 Speaker 00 A, B, C, B, A, B, C, B. And almost all the pieces fell into place. And I knew that was the way to tell Song and River's story.
37:05 Oprah Winfrey? Thank you. Authors.
37:09 Oprah Winfrey? What can I say? Wow. That's incredible. That's incredible. A braid vision comes to you.
37:15 Speaker 00 It was totally random and I didn't even know what it meant. Yeah.
37:20 Oprah Winfrey? But you knew it meant something.
37:21 Speaker 00 Yes, it was so clear.
37:24 Oprah Winfrey? I, I believe that. I do, I mean, but, but I've never heard that before. Never heard that before. So Song, the mother, lives in poverty. And after giving birth to River, on page 19, you describe her home life with, like this. You say, "She felt like she was lying in a bog, gnats swarming her greasy hair, ants crawling up her sticky back. Whenever she rolled over, she saw her mother crouch at the foot of the bed, cleaning the vegetables, or the floor, or the diapers, which had been cut out of soft sweatshirts. The village was a mud pit when it rained and a dust bowl when it didn't." How did you know a life like this in such detail?
38:04 Speaker 00 I know these homes very well. You know, I know this one room with the gigantic hearth bed and the folding tables you take out for meals. And when the meal's done, you fold it away. I know these little kitchens with the single giant walk and the basin of water for, for ladling. And I've lived in many of these homes. And that's because I was born in northeastern China in a rural area, a lot like Song's lakeyard. My great-grandparents were farmers and fishermen. My grandfather on one side was a machine repair technician and on the other side, a middle school teacher. And my aunts and uncles were pedicab drivers.
38:47 Speaker 00 They were food cart vendors. And they and people like them are the ones who built modern China. And yet so few stories are written about them. And so I wrote this story. I want to let them know that they are seen. And I hope that everyone reading the story will live in these homes with them.
39:09 Oprah Winfrey? Mm-hmm.
39:10 Speaker 00 And will
39:11 Oprah Winfrey? We felt it.
39:11 Speaker 00 Miss them. Yeah.
39:12 Oprah Winfrey? I felt my sticky back in the nets. We did.
39:16 Speaker 00 Oh, good.
39:17 Oprah Winfrey? Shadine, you have a question?
39:18 Speaker 05 Yes, first of all, thank you so much for this opportunity. And congratulations on this achievement. I'm now itching to read The Luster of Lost Things.
39:26 Oprah Winfrey? Yeah.
39:28 Speaker 05 My question relates to how this book resonated the most with me, which is Song's ceaseless will to want to give her little boy a better life than obviously the one that she had. And just an undying devotion. And that's because, of course, I was blessed. I am blessed with a mother who fled Iran. And she ended up in Turkey, had to pay smugglers to take my brother and I to Greece. And then finally, she got a golden ticket and came to Canada. And she certainly achieved that goal. And now I'm a new mother myself. My little boy's a year and a half. And as a new mother, you don't really feel like the world appreciates these moments, the sleepless nights, the postpartum period.
40:12 Speaker 05 And you captured those moments so beautifully. I remember one line about River's possessive hand on his mother's breast. And it was just very, very palpable, that love. And so I wondered, how did you draw on your experiences as a mother in crafting those moments?
40:29 Speaker 00 Right. When I started writing this book, I was so excited to get back to writing and to write about all these motherhood-related topics. Those precious, tender, fleeting moments of, you know, snuggling with your baby and giggling together and seeing those little personalities emerge and seeing the world through their eyes. And, you know, there's a scene in the book where Song is eating lunch and she starts leaking breast milk onto her shirt. Or in the early weeks where she's still bleeding. Those were physical realities of motherhood that had taken me by surprise. I didn't know about them. And the process of writing all of that was like building a bridge.
41:14 Speaker 00 And it connected who I had been as a writer with who I had become as a mother.
41:20 Oprah Winfrey? Well, Song's own mother obviously does not care for her in the same way that Song cares for River. And her mother is resentful, seems to be, and bitter. And what were you trying to show in the polar opposite styles of parenting?
41:39 Speaker 00 The way Song's mother mothers is a reflection, I think, of the way she was mothered. And the way Song mothers River is a reaction to how she was mothered. Yeah, she showers River with all the warmth and affection that she had longed for from her own mother and never got.
42:04 Oprah Winfrey? She's giving what she yearned for.
42:05 Speaker 00 Yeah, exactly. And later in the book, you know, Phyllis offers River resources, mentorship, education. These are things that Song wants to give him. And I think across all three styles, there is, there is love there, even with Song's own mother. But she's just, this is the way she knows how to express it.
42:27 Oprah Winfrey? It's now time for our final break. And when we come back, author Sophie Chen Keller talks about why it's often during times of great challenge, uncertainty, and risks that we transform ourselves. If you have an avid book lover in your life, go ahead and give a quick tap to the share button and send this episode to them.
42:56 Speaker 07 For years, and as of this year, it also comes in a dress and a crop tank. These are made in our buttery soft Nulule fabric, and my favorite part is the built in bra. It makes it super easy to wear for yoga, or honestly, as an everyday basic. You can find Flow Y Styles in store or online at lululemon.com.
43:15 Oprah Winfrey? We're back on the Oprah Podcast. Author Sophie Chen Keller reveals the inspiring idea behind the stunning finish of her new novel, Little Wonder. It is my latest book club selection. Now, back to the conversation. All right, so River is, as we were saying earlier, he's this piano prodigy who starts playing at the age of, what was he, four? Yeah, four. And what is so interesting is on page eight, you write, "It was obvious at a glance that her son was meant for more. Those ears protruding from the sides of his head perfectly formed to scoop the music right out of the air. That sink runs water in G.
43:59 Oprah Winfrey? That spoon clattered to the floor in A flat. And that light bulb flicked on in D sharp. And that tinker hollered under their window in a hoarse C, while the keys over his shoulder jangled in a brassy F." As we were saying earlier, that's such a descriptive way to explain how the music is in him. Is that also in you? That's how you relate?
44:24 Speaker 00 I do not have perfect pitch, and I'm not anywhere near a prodigy.
44:32 Speaker 00 But like I said, I started learning the piano when I was seven, and it wasn't until I was in middle school that I became more serious about it. I saw an ad for the Disney Youth Orchestra, and they were looking for a new pianist. And so I thought, I'm gonna be Disney's pianist. And so I started practicing an hour a day, or an hour and a half a day. And I filled out an application form, and I sent in an audition tape, and I never heard back. And, but the habit of practicing an hour and a half a day stuck with me. And so that's how I became a decent pianist in a really ordinary way. In high school, I won a local competition, but I wouldn't be able to win anything bigger.
45:17 Speaker 00 And when I went to college, I stopped this habit of practicing every day. And for many years, I didn't touch a piano. And in recent years, I've started getting back into it, just playing for myself and just for fun. And that started after my son was born. I was reading that classical music was good for babies' brain development. And so I started playing him recordings of my favorite pieces back in the day. And I must have been listening to so much music during the day that at night, when I woke up, I would notice this ache in my hands, almost as if my fingers wanted to stretch and play those pieces again.
46:00 Speaker 00 And so, once life settled down a bit, I bought a third-hand Yamaha upright, and I dug up my old music scores, and I started relearning some of my favorite pieces. And I started with Hungarian Rhapsody Number Six, which is a piece that River plays.
46:20 Oprah Winfrey? Oh.
46:21 Speaker 00 A lot of the pieces that he plays in the book are pieces I've played. Not the Tchaikovsky. I can't play that. But, you know, his experiences performing on the stage, I drew from my own experiences performing. And the way he practices, he'll syncopate rhythms, or if he's working on a tricky passage, he'll bring it up to speed slowly, one metronome notch at a time. Or, you know, the way he practices three notes in one hand versus seven in the other hand in La L'Choretza. I mean, these are ways that I know how to practice.
46:54 Oprah Winfrey? Okay. River, there's a little River in ya.
46:57 Speaker 00 Not at all, not at all.
47:00 Oprah Winfrey? Solani has a question. Yes?
47:02 Speaker 05 Thank you so much, Oprah. Sophie, I did not know that a book could make me feel so many things. One moment that stuck with me was when Blue passes away and Song is trying really hard to cope with this loss. And her instinct to text him and to just believe that he is just far away, like any other migrant worker, trying to navigate their long-distance relationship was very tough to read. What made you portray?
47:35 Speaker 00 Grief in this manner.
47:39 Speaker 00 When
47:42 Speaker 00 when Song first receives the news, she's in denial and then she's in shock.
47:49 Speaker 00 Blue is cut so suddenly and unexpectedly from her life that she knows that he's gone, but she still feels his presence. It's like a phantom limb or something. And, you know, she hasn't caught up with this new reality yet. And so when something happens, she feels this instinct to text him and to tell him about it. And the poignant thing about her situation is that even when she does catch up to this new reality, that new reality is not so different from her old reality because they're used to being separated and going years without seeing each other.
48:34 Speaker 00 Thank you.
48:35 Oprah Winfrey? So we're not going to give away the nail biting ending, of course, but I heard some of the audience members who read were in tears. Did you always know you wanted it to end that way? Did you know that that was going to be the ending?
48:46 Speaker 00 I didn't. I tried a few different versions.
48:48 Oprah Winfrey? Really?
48:48 Speaker 00 But I did know with the ending, you know, there's a line, "To come home, you have to journey forth." And I knew that was what I wanted, sort of the overarching message I wanted people to take away. You know, it's easy.
49:03 Oprah Winfrey? That to come home.
49:04 Speaker 00 You have to journey forth.
49:05 Oprah Winfrey? Yeah, you have to journey forth.
49:07 Speaker 00 Because, you know, it's it's easy to choose to stay at home, which is this place where we feel safe and comfortable. But an easy life is not the same thing as a good life. And it's probably the opposite because it's in times of great challenge and great uncertainty and great risk that we can transform ourselves and rise up and do something equally great.
49:36 Oprah Winfrey? Well, thank you. Thank you. Thank you. You did such a great job with this book.
49:41 Speaker 00 Thank you.
49:42 Oprah Winfrey? And thank you to everyone who has read it. And thank you to our readers for your just really insightful, insightful, insightful, terrific questions. And it's my 124th book club selection. 124.
50:06 Oprah Winfrey? Little Wonder is available wherever books are sold. Until next time, everybody, go well. 124.
50:18 Oprah Winfrey? If you like a sweeping story you can really sink your teeth into, you will enjoy Little Wonder by Sophie Chen Keller. It's the saga of this mother and her young son, and it stays with you. You can buy my 124th Oprah's Book Club pick, Little Wonder, right now just by scanning the QR code on the screen. You'll have it in seconds. Happy reading, book lovers. Our listeners tell us that the podcast is resonating with you and is serving as a bright spot in your day. That means a lot to me. So here's the thing. I would really appreciate it if you like and subscribe to the Oprah Podcast on YouTube or wherever you podcast.
51:01 Oprah Winfrey? It's just a quick tap of the subscribe button, and that way you won't miss an episode in your queue. You don't have to pay anything. I know subscribe usually means you're paying something, but this time it means you just are notified when there's something new. There are many more to come that we're excited about. So thank you for watching and listening.
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