What is Healthy Dependency in a Relationship and How Do We Find It? with Nedra Tawwab

Back for another life changing discussion, we have therapist and bestselling author Nedra Glover Tawwab to talk about healthy dependency in relationships – what it is, what's the difference from unhealthy dependency/codependency, and how to achieve it. We discuss how to not lose yourself in a relationship, dating someone who's enmeshed with their family, why our attachment styles aren't fixed and how we show up differently with different people, and the problem with hyper independence. We also discuss friendship enmeshment and when one friend needs space, accommodating friends' boundaries without losing them (and when you might need to cut someone off), navigating your best friend getting into a relationship, and how to understand different peoples' communication styles. We even touch on parenting and codependency with children. Before Nedra joins us, we analyze some wrong number texts Rayna has been receiving, and answer the question 'Can a morning person be with a non-morning person?' Enjoy! Follow Nedra on Instagram at @nedratawwab and preorder her new book The Balancing Act (out February 10). Follow us on Instagram @girlsgottaeatpodcast, Ashley @ashhess, and Rayna @rayna.greenberg. Visit girlsgottaeat.com for more. Thank you to our partners this week: Article: Get a beautiful new sofa, dining table, or bed http://article.com. Liquid IV: Get 20% off your first order at https://liquidiv.com with code GGE. Revolve: Get 15% off your first order at https://revolve.com/gge with code GGE. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Speaker 00

  There are actually healthy ways to be dependent. There are things that we have to do as a byproduct of being in a relationship with people.

• 0:24Ashley Hesseltine?

  This podcast is a Dear Media production. Hi, guys. Hi, guys. Welcome to another episode of Girls Gotta Eat. Welcome back. We've been talking some really hard shit the last, I've really like, I feel happy in my It was cathartic. We had to get some stuff out. Also, it's Groundhog's Day. Wait, it is? So, maybe if the groundhog sees a shadow, well. Groundhog's Day is in February. What? What happens with Groundhog's Day? There's like three more months of winter. Yeah, if he sees a shadow or not. What happens? We should relate it to like the political landscape. Like if he sees a shadow, maybe this nightmare will end. And if he doesn't, we have 30 more years of this dictatorship. Wait, is it, is it two more months? Punxsutawney Phil. He's from Pennsylvania.

• 1:10Ashley Hesseltine?

  Yeah, we've talked about him in his family. What's the thing? Like if, if he sees the shadow, is it three more months of winter or something? Hmm. Or am I overstepping? Are you what? Every year, this is like Groundhog's Day. No, because remember last year, we talked about Punxsutawney Phil and how he has to live in, no, he has to live in like a library or something or a museum and PETA is against it and PETA reached out. I thought that there was some scandal where Punxsutawney Phil got really skinny. It looked like he was on GLP-1.

• 1:43Ashley Hesseltine?

  Everybody's on Ozempic.

• 1:46Ashley Hesseltine?

  Okay, Groundhog's Day. Not you. It's said, except for me. I'm the, I'm the final one.

• 1:54Ashley Hesseltine?

  I feel like it's becoming so accessible, right? Like pill form and everything and

• 1:58Rayna Greenberg?

  Yes.

• 2:00Ashley Hesseltine?

  So, I mean, everyone's gonna be

• 2:02Rayna Greenberg?

  Pill form.

• 2:03Ashley Hesseltine?

  I'm gonna be the last person standing. With a natural body.

• 2:07Rayna Greenberg?

  People are like, Rena, how'd you lose weight? How do you think I lost?

• 2:09Ashley Hesseltine?

  Rena! Okay, if he sees his shadow, it's said to extend six weeks more of winter.

• 2:16Rayna Greenberg?

  Six weeks, not three months, okay.

• 2:17Ashley Hesseltine?

  Okay, and then February, our special month.

• 2:20Rayna Greenberg?

  Oh, it is our special month.

• 2:21Ashley Hesseltine?

  So, we will talk about this at a later date, but we will be celebrating eight years of the podcast this month.

• 2:26Rayna Greenberg?

  That's crazy.

• 2:26Ashley Hesseltine?

  It really is so crazy. I was always like, are we gonna make it to five? You know, and now it's like, are we gonna make it to 10?

• 2:33Rayna Greenberg?

  Yeah! What else are we gonna do?

• 2:35Ashley Hesseltine?

  Alright.

• 2:35Rayna Greenberg?

  Let's thank our partners.

• 2:36Ashley Hesseltine?

  We're not going anywhere. Thanks to Article, get a beautiful new sofa, dining table, or bed at article.com. And thank you to Liquid IV, get 20% off your first order at liquidiv.com with code GGE. And thank you to Revolve, get 15% off your first order at revolve.com/GGE with code GGE.

• 2:54Rayna Greenberg?

  And I'll just say this really quickly, Ashley and I own a sexual wellness brand called Vibes Only. We have tons of amazing, high-end vibrators for couples, solo, gift your friends. We have lube, we have handcuffs, we have massage oil candles, all kinds of stuff. So, if you guys wanna have just like a spicy, sexy Valentine's Day by yourself or with your partner, vibesonly.com, and the last day for ground shipping is this week, it's February 5th. So, beautiful packaging.

• 3:16Ashley Hesseltine?

  The best.

• 3:17Rayna Greenberg?

  You can feel really excited to gift to somebody.

• 3:19Ashley Hesseltine?

  Extra sexy packaging.

• 3:20Rayna Greenberg?

  Yes, gift somebody orgasms, that's what they really want.

• 3:23Ashley Hesseltine?

  So, you started your tour, we are recording this beforehand, but

• 3:28Rayna Greenberg?

  I'm sure it was great.

• 3:28Ashley Hesseltine?

  I'm sure it was great, and you were with me all weekend, and I'm sure it was great.

• 3:32Rayna Greenberg?

  That's hope.

• 3:33Ashley Hesseltine?

  If something terrible happens, we're gonna have to come back in. Something terrible will probably happen, but it will be privately in your hotel room.

• 3:40Rayna Greenberg?

  That'll be amazing.

• 3:43Rayna Greenberg?

  I hope a lot of terrible things happen in my hotel room.

• 3:46Ashley Hesseltine?

  Terrible things. Disgusting things.

• 3:50Rayna Greenberg?

  Disgusting things, you guys. Stay tuned. Yeah, we'll let you know, we were at our friend's bachelorette this weekend. Also, Alyssa Amoroso, who is a former guest of the show. So we'll tell you about it next week.

• 3:59Ashley Hesseltine?

  Yeah, yeah. If there's anything we need to recap, we will do it then.

• 4:01Rayna Greenberg?

  Yeah, but thanks for coming and, you know, continue to give me your money, rainagreener.com.

• 4:05Ashley Hesseltine?

  Yes. We have Nedra today.

• 4:08Rayna Greenberg?

  Oh, my queen.

• 4:08Ashley Hesseltine?

  This will be our third, our third time with Nedra. It's the first time in person. We had her virtually and she walked in and I was like, what are you wearing?

• 4:15Rayna Greenberg?

  She's such a style queen.

• 4:17Ashley Hesseltine?

  So watch on YouTube to see her outfit and I have since bought it.

• 4:21Rayna Greenberg?

  You really went home and bought it that night?

• 4:23Ashley Hesseltine?

  Yeah. So I was like, what designer is she wearing that is like inaccessible to the average person? Like, it looked so couture.

• 4:32Rayna Greenberg?

  Also, I'm just like, we have a lot of guests show up looking like wonderful, full outfit, heels. She had like heels on. She looked great, hair done, makeup done. I don't show up looking like that to other podcasts and I feel bad.

• 4:43Ashley Hesseltine?

  We dress way better than we used to. I can't believe what we used to wear.

• 4:46Rayna Greenberg?

  Every day I put on clothing and I'm like, I cannot believe what I used to record it.

• 4:49Ashley Hesseltine?

  I know. And, you know, we did start the podcast without video. So maybe if we would've, I don't know, but even when we started doing video, I was still just really slumming it.

• 4:57Rayna Greenberg?

  For years.

• 4:59Ashley Hesseltine?

  I don't regret it because it's the growth.

• 5:01Rayna Greenberg?

  I was comfy.

• 5:01Ashley Hesseltine?

  You've been able to be on the journey with us, but her outfit, it's, it's Gap. It's like this Gap studio thing. I was able to find it. It was on sale, like 70% off, final sale. So catch me in Nedra's outfit, you guys. Check it out on YouTube. And I just don't think I'm going to be able to pull it off like her. I was saying, like, we just have different bodies, different looks. Like, I don't know. I'm just like, I feel like I'm going to put it on and be like, god damn it.

• 5:25Rayna Greenberg?

  You know, I like an all jean set. I love a jean jumpsuit, all jean set. Is it jean?

• 5:30Ashley Hesseltine?

  It's like, it's denim, yeah. But the, the print, I mean, and she had a heel with it.

• 5:34Rayna Greenberg?

  She had that silver heel. So I'm saying, people come looking like really nice to record with us.

• 5:38Ashley Hesseltine?

  It is crazy when you see somebody in something, you like, I'll buy that right now. I'll buy it now. I'm copying you. Exactly.

• 5:44Rayna Greenberg?

  Yeah. Lindsay Simsek, when we recorded with the Almost 30 Girls, those reformation pants with the studs down the side, it was like immediate bad to cart.

• 5:51Ashley Hesseltine?

  Yes. It's, it is so flattering. And it's like, you know, you and I do that too. And we try not to wear the same thing on the same day, but it's just like, that's girlhood.

• 6:00Rayna Greenberg?

  We haven't shown up in the same outfit in a while.

• 6:02Ashley Hesseltine?

  I know.

• 6:03Rayna Greenberg?

  Do you think we're at a stage?

• 6:04Ashley Hesseltine?

  Are our periods not synced up anymore? It's crazy.

• 6:06Rayna Greenberg?

  I don't get a period anymore. Okay. I have to read you this thing.

• 6:09Ashley Hesseltine?

  Okay.

• 6:10Rayna Greenberg?

  I'm just curious what you would have done.

• 6:12Ashley Hesseltine?

  Okay.

• 6:12Rayna Greenberg?

  And.

• 6:14Rayna Greenberg?

  I can't decide if this makes me an asshole or not. Okay.

• 6:18Rayna Greenberg?

  I get a text from this guy. I've not seen his name in like, I mean, I want to say 14 or 15 years. I went on one date with him in New York City.

• 6:26Ashley Hesseltine?

  Do I know about this at all?

• 6:27Rayna Greenberg?

  No.

• 6:27Ashley Hesseltine?

  This is just like.

• 6:28Rayna Greenberg?

  No, you know, nothing. I went on one date with this guy. It was sort of a weird date and then I'd see him here and there in New York, but we never, I think we both mutually were like, I don't fuck with you. And that was that. He's gotten married and had a kid since then.

• 6:37Ashley Hesseltine?

  Okay.

• 6:38Rayna Greenberg?

  So I got a text from him the other day.

• 6:41Ashley Hesseltine?

  What?

• 6:42Rayna Greenberg?

  And it said, hey, I have an actual work emergency, so I'm leaving now. It says 28 minutes. I'm very sorry. I really hope to get there earlier today. And I was like, I don't need to respond to this. I don't care.

• 6:51Ashley Hesseltine?

  Yeah.

• 6:51Rayna Greenberg?

  I don't need to be like, this is not for me.

• 6:54Ashley Hesseltine?

  But it's, it's so interesting for you to get that because of your name. Like I am way more prone to get something like that with Ashley.

• 7:01Rayna Greenberg?

  Totally.

• 7:02Ashley Hesseltine?

  What other Rayna do you have?

• 7:04Rayna Greenberg?

  Rayna or Greenberg and like 412 from Pittsburgh. Like it's not a major, it's a major city, but it's not a top 15 city in the country.

• 7:11Ashley Hesseltine?

  No, but you were programmed in his phone because he didn't just pull up an old 412 number from 15 years ago.

• 7:17Rayna Greenberg?

  Yes.

• 7:17Ashley Hesseltine?

  Yeah. Like your name was in his phone.

• 7:19Rayna Greenberg?

  Okay. Two days later, hey, be there around 8:15 for breakfast. Hope that's okay.

• 7:23Ashley Hesseltine?

  Wait, oh, what?

• 7:26Rayna Greenberg?

  So I again, I'm just like, I don't need to respond to this. I don't care about this.

• 7:29Ashley Hesseltine?

  No, what? Okay. I am having a stroke.

• 7:34Rayna Greenberg?

  A couple of weeks later, he goes on.

• 7:36Ashley Hesseltine?

  No, Rayna, what is happening?

• 7:38Rayna Greenberg?

  Hey, sorry, but looking like 8:20 for arrival. Would love to still have breakfast if possible.

• 7:42Ashley Hesseltine?

  Wait, no. Why is it always the breakfast? He's just, was the first one breakfast too? This has been three breakfasts?

• 7:48Rayna Greenberg?

  First one was not breakfast. The second one was breakfast. The third was breakfast. I still am not responding.

• 7:52Ashley Hesseltine?

  And he, and by the way, whoever he's texting is not responding.

• 7:55Rayna Greenberg?

  I know.

• 7:56Ashley Hesseltine?

  Which is you, but I'm saying whoever he thinks he's texting.

• 7:58Rayna Greenberg?

  Is not responding to him. So he isn't like picking up any context clues. Like when you got there, was there breakfast?

• 8:04Ashley Hesseltine?

  Did they go to breakfast?

• 8:06Rayna Greenberg?

  When you talk to the person, did they say, I never got your text?

• 8:08Ashley Hesseltine?

  Your text? Right. This is an unsolved mystery.

• 8:11Rayna Greenberg?

  I get a, I get a fourth text.

• 8:12Ashley Hesseltine?

  No, but same, a different day?

• 8:14Rayna Greenberg?

  Last week.

• 8:15Ashley Hesseltine?

  Okay.

• 8:16Rayna Greenberg?

  He says a guy's name. So I, I won't say what the name is, but John. John is just waking up now. So, so we will not be there for breakfast today.

• 8:23Ashley Hesseltine?

  Not breakfast again. How many breakfast dates is this guy going on?

• 8:28Rayna Greenberg?

  Likely will be there closer to 8:30.

• 8:30Ashley Hesseltine?

  Every day it's what, what time he's show? Who is he having breakfast with? And he's going with his wife?

• 8:36Rayna Greenberg?

  So I text this to Jeremy. I go, this fucking idiot. Why is he texting me about breakfast every day?

• 8:41Ashley Hesseltine?

  Does Jeremy remember this guy?

• 8:42Rayna Greenberg?

  Jeremy knows him. Yeah, Jeremy knows him too. I'm like, this fucking idiot.

• 8:48Rayna Greenberg?

  Jeremy, without hesitating, it's clearly about his son. And it washes over me. He thinks he's texting his son's school about his kid's breakfast. And this is the kid's name. He's just waking up now, so we'll be there. We're gonna be missing breakfast this morning. Never.

• 9:07Ashley Hesseltine?

  I still don't know what you're saying.

• 9:08Rayna Greenberg?

  I think he thinks he's texting his son's school.

• 9:11Ashley Hesseltine?

  School?

• 9:13Rayna Greenberg?

  Hey, he's just waking up today. We don't need to do breakfast.

• 9:17Ashley Hesseltine?

  Okay, okay, Jeremy. What are you, a dad now? What are you, a parent or inside the minds of parents? Okay, so how did it get from Raina to the school?

• 9:30Rayna Greenberg?

  I don't, I'm just like, he'll figure it out. I'm not gonna. I did feel a little bad because I like realized this was some kid's school and I want the kid to have breakfast.

• 9:39Ashley Hesseltine?

  This kid's starving because you aren't responding?

• 9:43Rayna Greenberg?

  Thursday a couple of days ago. We'll be there by 8:10. Not sure if he will miss breakfast, but he will if you're not okay with waiting.

• 9:52Ashley Hesseltine?

  Okay, so he is texting something that does not typically get a response, obviously. That's the only reason he would keep doing it.

• 9:58Rayna Greenberg?

  I guess, but like when you got there, didn't you realize there was or wasn't breakfast? And like, isn't it such a dad move to just keep texting?

• 10:06Ashley Hesseltine?

  You have not responded yet? You did?

• 10:10Rayna Greenberg?

  No, I didn't.

• 10:11Ashley Hesseltine?

  You have not yet responded yet?

• 10:12Rayna Greenberg?

  I have not responded.

• 10:13Ashley Hesseltine?

  Did Jeremy say you should respond?

• 10:14Rayna Greenberg?

  He said I'm being an asshole. He was like, you're being asshole. But like, I don't know. I listen, I'm not trying to starve this kid of breakfast, but like, shouldn't this dad? Also, is he trolling? Do you think he's just trying?

• 10:28Ashley Hesseltine?

  Get back in, get back with you?

• 10:32Ashley Hesseltine?

  He's like, I'm a dad that cares about my kid and makes sure he has breakfast.

• 10:35Rayna Greenberg?

  But I can't be on time.

• 10:36Ashley Hesseltine?

  It's the most important meal of the day.

• 10:37Rayna Greenberg?

  What if I wrote him back? I'm like, sorry, it's really giving me the ick that you can't be on time.

• 10:41Ashley Hesseltine?

  No, seriously, like you're a shitty parent.

• 10:44Ashley Hesseltine?

  Figure your shit out, pull it together. Your kid needs to eat.

• 10:47Rayna Greenberg?

  Like, I hope John's okay.

• 10:49Ashley Hesseltine?

  No, like, I'm calling Child Protective Services. You are not feeding your child.

• 10:52Rayna Greenberg?

  That's why I text him back the number for CBS.

• 10:56Ashley Hesseltine?

  You have to say, I think this is the wrong number, because for me, for the audience, like, we all want to know what happens. Like, because you know he's gonna say, oh, sorry, I thought you were the school.

• 11:06Rayna Greenberg?

  But now I'm too deep. Like, now I've gotten so many texts, I'm like, really an asshole.

• 11:10Ashley Hesseltine?

  No, it makes it funnier. It all makes it funnier.

• 11:13Rayna Greenberg?

  Now I'm gonna be like, I think you have the wrong number. You've texted me six times.

• 11:17Ashley Hesseltine?

  You're busy.

• 11:20Ashley Hesseltine?

  He's still the one that's gonna be embarrassed here. I wouldn't worry about that.

• 11:24Rayna Greenberg?

  Also, I'm confused because, like, I'm pretty sure, like, every school district is different, but are teachers giving out their personal cellphone numbers? And if so, like, then why are, you, you aren't getting a response.

• 11:37Ashley Hesseltine?

  No, but everything is, like, text these days. Like, I think it's crazy. Like, stores are texting me all the time. Are you, are you finding this?

• 11:46Rayna Greenberg?

  Yeah.

• 11:46Ashley Hesseltine?

  Like, randomly, when I'm shopping in New York, when I shopped at Mage and then Rag and Bone, they're texting, the salesperson that helped me is texting me, which I think is a little out of pocket. I don't think you should be able to text me. I didn't sign up for texts, but there, I'm getting personal messages from the store. My point is just, like, restaurants, like, everything is, like, text, so it feels, it feels like he's texting this is like the way a hotel texts you when you're in the hotel.

• 12:07Rayna Greenberg?

  You think it's an automated service?

• 12:08Ashley Hesseltine?

  Not automated, like, it's going somewhere, but it's not some, something that's texting back. I guess I'm kind of going off on a tangent because I've been meaning to ask you. Are you getting texts from fucking stores?

• 12:16Rayna Greenberg?

  Yeah, but that doesn't feel weird to me. That's just like, you're just in their system now.

• 12:19Ashley Hesseltine?

  But I didn't tell you you could text me, Rag and Bone.

• 12:22Rayna Greenberg?

  I think it automatically, like, when, when you pay for something, I think it automatically links it.

• 12:26Ashley Hesseltine?

  But they're personal. Hey, Ashley, it was so, it was great to help you find those jeans. Man, I didn't give you my number.

• 12:34Rayna Greenberg?

  A personal staff member is texting you?

• 12:35Ashley Hesseltine?

  Yes, and this one lady, like, one of the, was it, was it Mage, I think, which we had a great

• 12:40Rayna Greenberg?

  Is that how you say that store?

• 12:41Ashley Hesseltine?

  Shopping experience. Modge?

• 12:42Rayna Greenberg?

  I, I'm asking you. I have no idea. I don't, I would never, I would never be brave enough to say that word out loud. You're so brave.

• 12:48Ashley Hesseltine?

  I appreciate it. We had a nice, she was, really helped me style something, but she was like, hey, this is So and so come back to see you next time. Like, I'm like, wait, don't make me respond to that. I don't, I have enough.

• 12:58Rayna Greenberg?

  That's gotta be automated, though, because that's who's logged into the system when they're checking.

• 13:02Ashley Hesseltine?

  Not automated at all. It was completely personalized. My name, her name, and what I bought.

• 13:06Rayna Greenberg?

  Yeah, but that's automated. That's totally automated. Yes. It's whoever is logged into the store and they know who checked you out and they know what you bought because of the receipt.

• 13:15Ashley Hesseltine?

  Let me read it.

• 13:15Rayna Greenberg?

  I know that you like these personalized emails. I know you like them for our company, too.

• 13:19Ashley Hesseltine?

  Wait, wait, don't insult me.

• 13:20Rayna Greenberg?

  You like them.

• 13:21Ashley Hesseltine?

  Let's have people weigh in on everything. Here it is.

• 13:25Rayna Greenberg?

  Okay, read it.

• 13:25Ashley Hesseltine?

  Hello, Ashley.

• 13:27Rayna Greenberg?

  Stop.

• 13:27Ashley Hesseltine?

  You used your credit card?

• 13:28Rayna Greenberg?

  Let me finish.

• 13:29Ashley Hesseltine?

  You used your credit card? Are you gonna let me finish?

• 13:32Rayna Greenberg?

  I'm gonna let you finish, but Beyonce had one of the best albums of the year.

• 13:34Ashley Hesseltine?

  You're not even ready.

• 13:36Rayna Greenberg?

  Okay.

• 13:36Ashley Hesseltine?

  Hello, Ashley. Thank you for stopping in to shop with us. It was great meeting you. I hope the comedy special taping went well. Please see us again the next time you were in the neighborhood. Nancy.

• 13:46Rayna Greenberg?

  Okay, I'm corrected. How much did you talk to this person?

• 13:49Ashley Hesseltine?

  You know how crazy that whole thing was, me trying to find pants? Yeah, and then I didn't end up wearing them, but Nancy was so wonderful. I kept the pants. I've since worn them, but like, they were like my backup pants that I was gonna wear. It's a whole thing. When you guys see it eventually, one of these days.

• 14:06Ashley Hesseltine?

  It's a whole thing.

• 14:07Rayna Greenberg?

  I told you that. I was like, wait, what?

• 14:09Ashley Hesseltine?

  They're like, oh, right, you shot a special months ago. No, I promise. But, no, so like, we were on a journey together. I went in there one day. We picked them out. I told her to hold them and I went back and got them. Like Nancy and I were like this, and I really do appreciate her touching me.

• 14:21Rayna Greenberg?

  That is crazy.

• 14:22Ashley Hesseltine?

  But I'm telling you, that's personal.

• 14:23Rayna Greenberg?

  No, that's really like, that's taking it too far.

• 14:26Ashley Hesseltine?

  Well, I don't want to insult that. I had a great experience. Apparently, this is not, this is the norm.

• 14:30Rayna Greenberg?

  I mean, I have stores that will text me and say like, hey, Raina, thanks for buying whatever the fuck. Text stop to have us stop doing this. This is just somebody's cell phone number. Did you invite her to your special taping?

• 14:42Ashley Hesseltine?

  I probably. And let me see the Ragambo one. And again, I had a great experience and I appreciated the text, honestly. I just am like wondering if people.

• 14:50Rayna Greenberg?

  This is not happening to me. I'm not that proud. I think people probably would assume I'm friendlier. I'm not.

• 14:56Ashley Hesseltine?

  Okay, but anyway, let me know if that's happening to you guys. But again, that's not a dig towards them. I like did appreciate, like, we were, we developed a relationship over those couple of days in my desperate times.

• 15:04Rayna Greenberg?

  Yeah, sometimes you just feel closer to like a store employee and they text you.

• 15:07Ashley Hesseltine?

  But obviously, they are allowed to do that. No, it happens with Allison Olivia all the time.

• 15:12Rayna Greenberg?

  I've been in Allison Olivia with you and you will become friends with every person in the store.

• 15:16Ashley Hesseltine?

  Every time I leave Allison Olivia, "Hey, girl, great helping you out today. Come back and see us." I'm telling you, this is happening all the time.

• 15:21Rayna Greenberg?

  You, people like you, you're very friendly in those stores. The Austin Allison Olivia, you and Zach were sick as thieves. I was like, can we go?

• 15:30Ashley Hesseltine?

  I feel like that's how I got on that friends and family list.

• 15:32Rayna Greenberg?

  You two were kicking in that store for 30 minutes. I was like, can we leave?

• 15:35Ashley Hesseltine?

  Yeah, again, I just, I don't mind it. I just didn't know if like, I thought there might be like a privacy concern that they're just texting customers. But let us know in the comments and then also let us know what you guys think about what Raina's dealing with. I need to know, I need the parents to weigh in.

• 15:49Rayna Greenberg?

  Some people are gonna be mad at me and be like, "This is a kid and he needs to eat."

• 15:55Rayna Greenberg?

  It's like, he's eating. But like, and listen, and I know that we're all proud of a dad for like doing something. We're proud of him for like driving his kid to school. Like, yay, clap for the dads for like doing something that moms do every day. But I don't know, I just, I don't feel like texting this guy back.

• 16:08Ashley Hesseltine?

  Just do it, because I want to hear what he has to say. And now we have to do a follow-up next week.

• 16:12Rayna Greenberg?

  You want to say, sorry, what do I say?

• 16:15Ashley Hesseltine?

  "Hey, lol, this is the wrong number." Just, you ought to throw an lol in.

• 16:19Rayna Greenberg?

  "Hey, this is the wrong..."

• 16:22Ashley Hesseltine?

  "Hey, I think you have the wrong number, lol."

• 16:24Rayna Greenberg?

  "Now I'm all mixed up. Hey, I think you have..."

• 16:27Ashley Hesseltine?

  He was watching what she's doing right now. Like, I've never seen you try to do this. You're trying to keep the mic between your tits. Raina's titty fucking the mic while she texts this guy back.

• 16:38Rayna Greenberg?

  Lol, feels so rude.

• 16:40Ashley Hesseltine?

  No, really? Oh, I was doing it to soften.

• 16:44Rayna Greenberg?

  "Hey, I think you have the wrong number, lol."

• 16:47Ashley Hesseltine?

  That's you guys. Lol, right?

• 16:49Rayna Greenberg?

  Okay, it's sent.

• 16:50Ashley Hesseltine?

  Did it turn blue?

• 16:51Rayna Greenberg?

  Says delivered and it's blue.

• 16:53Ashley Hesseltine?

  Yeah, yeah, okay. I don't know, I was just curious what he was texting with, what dads are using these days. Wish us Jeremy.

• 17:00Rayna Greenberg?

  The way Jeremy was like, obviously that's somebody's kid. How is that obvious to you? I'm really smart and a woman and I, it was not obvious to me.

• 17:09Ashley Hesseltine?

  And a woman.

• 17:10Rayna Greenberg?

  Yeah, I'm the turner. Like, I'm the one that would have the kid.

• 17:13Ashley Hesseltine?

  Oh, I see what you're saying. I thought you meant those two didn't go together. Like, guys, I'm really smart and I know I'm a woman. So it's crazy.

• 17:19Rayna Greenberg?

  You know us with our stupid, silly woman brains. Can't figure out anything.

• 17:24Ashley Hesseltine?

  Okay, well, we have one more email that we have had in the inbox for a while that we really wanted to discuss. Should we go over it?

• 17:31Rayna Greenberg?

  I'm not reading it. Yeah.

• 17:32Ashley Hesseltine?

  Okay. Sorry, she's so smart. Okay, so.

• 17:38Rayna Greenberg?

  You guys know how to read?

• 17:39Ashley Hesseltine?

  Wait, that's my job here? I liked the, um.

• 17:41Rayna Greenberg?

  The intro about you?

• 17:43Ashley Hesseltine?

  What?

• 17:44Rayna Greenberg?

  The intro part about you.

• 17:45Ashley Hesseltine?

  Oh, is it? Was it about me?

• 17:47Rayna Greenberg?

  I think it just said something like sparkle eyes, something, something.

• 17:50Ashley Hesseltine?

  Okay.

• 17:50Rayna Greenberg?

  Said something about Boston.

• 17:51Ashley Hesseltine?

  Oh, yeah, it was about me. I'll definitely read that part. Okay.

• 17:56Ashley Hesseltine?

  All right, I was trying to find the subject line. The subject line is sleeping in slash waking up early in relationships. You posted this in the outline. You took out the part about me.

• 18:05Rayna Greenberg?

  Well, I just wanted to get to the point.

• 18:07Ashley Hesseltine?

  I'm gonna go back in.

• 18:08Rayna Greenberg?

  I thought you already read the part about you.

• 18:10Ashley Hesseltine?

  No, there's a Delaware connection and she's been to the show in Boston where I met Shashank. So anyway, she's a longtime fan. I, we love when you guys also say those nice things when you email us and stuff.

• 18:20Rayna Greenberg?

  I just, I was, I was letting us digest it privately.

• 18:23Ashley Hesseltine?

  Anyway, she says, I know you guys have talked about this before, but I'd be, have we? I don't know. I mean, maybe not really in depth, so buckle up. Okay, I've talked about this before, but I'd be interested to see what your followers think about sleep. It's necessary.

• 18:36Rayna Greenberg?

  Never matter.

• 18:37Ashley Hesseltine?

  Yeah. I have been with my fiance for 11 years. We're getting married this July and I'm so in love with him. That said, am I toxic because I legit love getting up early? I love starting the day when the sun rises, oof, and I jump out of bed every morning because I love life so much. What a brag.

• 18:52Rayna Greenberg?

  I love life so much.

• 18:53Ashley Hesseltine?

  In 2026, do you? But this 31 year old man can literally sleep until noon. Okay, they've been together since they were 20, by the way. Like, she, he's 31. So, I mean, this, this is like a, I find that fascinating. Together when you're 20, you're gonna get married, you're in your 30s. This 31-year-old man can literally sleep until noon. And when we were in college, that was fine because everyone did. And I was the outlier who wanted to start my day. But now that we're real adults, I feel frustrated that I'm jumping out of bed early to rock and roll. And he needs a reason to be up in order to emerge earlier than 9:00 a.m. Most Saturdays, if we have to leave the house by 10:00 a.m. for a planned event, I have to wake him up. This is the only part of life where I feel like I'm parenting this person. He is otherwise self-sufficient, self-starting, and can do life on his own. We just get to be partners in it. I recently read an article called "The Oppression of Morning People and How We're So Annoying."

• 19:38Ashley Hesseltine?

  So I need to know, am I annoying? Like, should I just let this man sleep and be happy? I got a good one, instead of finding the one thing I don't understand to nitpick? Or is it fair to question why my man isn't jumping out of bed to live life like I am? I'd be interested to hear what your listeners think.

• 19:51Rayna Greenberg?

  If this is the only problem...

• 19:53Ashley Hesseltine?

  Truly, if this is the only thing, you dig deep and you ask yourself... I mean, for her to write, "I am so in love with him." After 11 years, it is rare.

• 20:03Rayna Greenberg?

  It's rare. Listen, I like to get up really early. I get up 6 o'clock on the weekdays, 7:30 on the weekends. I like to get up really early. I like the morning when no one's talking to me. But like, that's my version of rest. Like, I go to sleep really, early, too. So like, my version of relaxation, recharging, is go to bed early, get up early. That's not everybody's version of relaxation. I think that like, sleep is so important and feeling like you've like, de-stressed from the week. I don't know what his job is. But if this is really the only problem, I understand her feeling like, man, this sucks. This is the only couple of days we get together and you're asleep all day.

• 20:36Ashley Hesseltine?

  Yeah, I mean, I have so many things to say. And Raina and I talked about this privately, too. And it would be tough to be with somebody that really... And I'm not as early... I'm not a morning person. I'm not as up as early as you. But it would be tough to be with somebody who wanted to sleep till noon, like...

• 20:50Rayna Greenberg?

  Noon is not the same as 10:00 a.m. to me.

• 20:52Ashley Hesseltine?

  Yeah, she's saying she has to wake him up if they have to do something at 10:00. Here's my question. Does he get up easily? Or is he like, grumbling and he wants to sleep more? Like, is he an easygoing guy? Like, does he know that like, sometimes he has to get up early and do stuff with you? I also wonder what their nights are like. Is she going to bed a lot earlier? I mean, I... Curious with everything about their week and if they do both work traditional nine to five jobs and then they only have the weekends together. I mean, vacations, this is when it would bother me. We've talked about this before. Like, I do get up earlier on vacations, traditional vacations, where not just like work trips, like, but I want to experience and do things and maximize my time. But she's that really early person. Like, we have that

• 21:35Ashley Hesseltine?

  friend in our college friends group, like, even when we were all waking up so hungover, like, Alex was up and she'd been on a run. And she is that person that, like, love her to death. She's like, she knows she's that person and she's not waking anybody else up. But when this girl asks, like, "Am I annoying?" It's like, we all have that friend. I don't find it annoying at all. But when we would all wake up, Alex is in the kitchen with her running clothes on and has been on a run. And I think it's like, she knows she's got to get up early and she's going to do stuff before the rest of the world wakes up. And I guess my advice to her is how she can reframe her mornings. Like, can she just kind of tell herself, like, "I've been with this man for 11 years. I'm going to be with him till the end of time." Like, those mornings are my solo time and I really

• 22:18Ashley Hesseltine?

  want to savor them. Like, you wake up and you do your stuff and you like being alone. Like, can she reframe it to be like, "I like that he's sleeping in because I get to do these things for myself?" And then I'm curious what the rest of their day looks like. Like, once he gets out of bed, is he willing to go do stuff? Like, is he like a lazy guy? It doesn't really sound like that. It sounds like it's just the getting up.

• 22:37Rayna Greenberg?

  Yeah. I mean, some people have the ability to sleep until noon. I've never been like that. And like, all my friends that have had partners like that, they make brunch plans with other friends and they make coffee plans and take walks. And I love the advice of just like, "That's your solo time. You should enjoy it."

• 22:51Ashley Hesseltine?

  Yeah.

• 22:51Rayna Greenberg?

  I guess I'm curious if they live in a house or an apartment.

• 22:53Ashley Hesseltine?

  Yeah.

• 22:53Rayna Greenberg?

  Because like, I live in a house now. I can be downstairs making all the noise in the world and I don't really hear it upstairs. Like, when somebody stays with me, if somebody gets up before me, like, you don't hear stuff. But like, in an apartment, it would be like out of the question for me, in my New York apartments, to like, turn on the TV and cook and do stuff because you're like bothering somebody.

• 23:09Ashley Hesseltine?

  Oh, that's the worst, if she feels like she has to tiptoe around. But if I were to guess, I don't think she feels like that. I think he thinks he knows he's going to sleep in and she's up. And I'm sure she's able to get up and live her life. I like what you said, too. Like, if you are that person... In get up, find a friend to go have breakfast with. But my question is just how he is the rest of the time. She says he's self sufficient, self starting and can do life on his own. If she's asking if it's a red flag that he's a night person that he wants to sleep in. No,

• 23:37Rayna Greenberg?

  Let him cook.

• 23:37Ashley Hesseltine?

  There's all these studies that show that sometimes more creative people are night people. Like, does he go to bed at 9pm and he has to sleep till noon? He might need to see a doctor. But does he stay up late and he wakes up late? It's just sometimes how we're wired. Like, I have really worked on it, but I know that naturally I am a person that functions better staying up a little later and not waking up at the crack of dawn. I'll never do it. My body rejects it completely when I have to wake up that early. It doesn't even really matter how much sleep I've had. I feel sick when I have to get up so early for a flight. I've realized what's the earliest I can even take a flight these days at this age that I can function the next day. Like, I don't know. It's just kind of who we who we are, how we're built.

• 24:20Rayna Greenberg?

  I wonder what time they go to sleep at night, too.

• 24:22Ashley Hesseltine?

  I know.

• 24:23Rayna Greenberg?

  Could she go to sleep a little bit earlier with him?

• 24:24Ashley Hesseltine?

  Right.

• 24:25Rayna Greenberg?

  And like, this is just one of those things that I'm like, when people say to me, like, we don't, we had an episode last week about fighting, like, we don't have any disagreements at all. Like, I'm always like, you're not like a little annoyed at somebody every once in a while?

• 24:36Ashley Hesseltine?

  Yeah.

• 24:36Rayna Greenberg?

  Like, to me, this is just like something that's a little bit annoying about your partner. But like, we're all a little bit annoying. So is this the only annoying thing about him?

• 24:43Ashley Hesseltine?

  Yeah. Or does she feel like he actually doesn't want to live life to the fullest? He can totally be a person that loves life. He just wants to start life at 10am. Like, it doesn't necessarily mean that, but she has to ask herself that. Like, am I writing this email and trying to get advice from these girls because my question is deeper than this? And I'm just kind of masking it with the morning stuff or not? So that's for her to decide. But if this really is it, and once he gets up, he's reliable and he'll go do stuff, then I don't think it's certainly a deal breaker of this 11 year relationship.

• 25:14Rayna Greenberg?

  I'm curious what his job is, too. Like,

• 25:16Ashley Hesseltine?

  Right.

• 25:16Rayna Greenberg?

  I think about somebody like my brother who gets up at like 4:30, 5 o'clock in the morning to go to work, he works in finance, and then doesn't get home till like 6pm. Like, my brother is like out at work for like 12 hours a day. And so on the weekends, like, if somebody wants to sleep in, I, you have to just kind of let them. That's like, Their recharge time and it would annoy me if somebody was constantly like, get up, get up, get up. Cause like I deserve to relax as much as you do.

• 25:38Ashley Hesseltine?

  Yeah, totally. I mean, I do want to validate though, that this can be an issue in relationships. I mean, with Shashank, like we, he was going in at nine and that worked really well for us. He wants to get up at like seven 30 and then we were having that coffee together in the morning. It was like really nice. And now he is going in at eight and we don't do that anymore. Like I am getting up sometimes when he's leaving, like I like to be up and moving by eight. I try and he's gone. So we just had to be like, we're not doing that unless things change. Like I can't get up at, at seven or six 30, like just I, that doesn't work for me.

• 26:20Rayna Greenberg?

  Yeah, you're on the night shift.

• 26:21Ashley Hesseltine?

  Yeah. And so we're, you know, we still go to bed together nine nights out of 10, but it's just kind of like, I don't know if, if he had to get up every morning at 5:30 and the alarm went off and it woke me up and I had trouble going back to sleep. It would be a real problem.

• 26:37Rayna Greenberg?

  I also like, again, I'm not suggesting they have any problems. If this is the only problem, great, go for it. You're killing it. It's amazing to have been with somebody for that many years from the time you were 20. Cause like she's saying, like this used to be a different lifestyle choice. Everybody in college and your early twenties is kind of like a piece of trash and you sleep all day. And I think that's the hard part about relationships like that was when you meet somebody, they're just in a very different stage of life and you hope to grow up together. And some people do hit that age where they're just like, we just are in, we're in different phases of life, kind of.

• 27:04Ashley Hesseltine?

  Yeah. And we talked about this with drinking recently, when you do get together this young and let's just say you're drinking and partying a lot and then you grow up and one person stays in that drinking, partying, getting drunk, blacking out, being hungover lifestyle. The other person doesn't, and can you work that out? And this is, I mean, we just are not who we are in our twenties versus our thirties versus our forties and so on. So if they really have grown together since 20 and everything else is aligned and she can still say, I'm so in love with him and she's really excited to marry him. And like, this is it. I would say just figure out how you have to reframe your mornings,

• 27:47Ashley Hesseltine?

  let him live and good luck.

• 27:50Rayna Greenberg?

  I agree. We solved it. Good luck out there.

• 27:53Ashley Hesseltine?

  Okay.

• 27:54Rayna Greenberg?

  All right. Well, let's just thank our partners and then we'll get into it with Nedra.

• 27:56Ashley Hesseltine?

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• 28:38Ashley Hesseltine?

  the gift bags of my, for my wedding, because this is really what you need to get through a marathon weekend like that.

• 28:45Rayna Greenberg?

  I also just wasn't feeling very well on Sunday. And so I just put some in water and it just like made me feel a little bit better.

• 28:49Ashley Hesseltine?

  Totally. So we are such fans of it. You can get the sugar free as well. I stick to the standard. I like lemon lime, grapefruit, and guava are my favorite flavors. But if you guys want to do sugar free, they have strawberry, kiwi, blackberry, lemonade, and guava, pomegranate, all just so delicious. I really do love their flavors. There's no like aftertaste. They taste really naturally like the fruit or whatever the flavor is. And so we just love that. We love the benefits. And again, like we said, just one stick and 16 ounces of water hydrates better than water alone. So you guys can show up with better hydration and energy from Liquid IV. Zero sugar and zero crash. Tear, pour, live more. Go to liquidiv.com and get 20% off your first order with code GGE at checkout. That's 20% off your first order with code

• 29:33Ashley Hesseltine?

  GGE at liquidiv.com.

• 29:36Rayna Greenberg?

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• 30:20Rayna Greenberg?

  you want to do right now? It's cozy season. Let's get a new couch. So I'm looking at this Beta 98 inch modular sectional in Cypress Green. I'm really enjoying like green tones right now.

• 30:29Ashley Hesseltine?

  Oh my gosh, seriously.

• 30:31Rayna Greenberg?

  They have a lot of the options. They have linen couches, they have velvet, they have leather, but I'm just liking these like really like warm, lovely, like cozy couches now. And they have fast affordable shipping and assembly across US and Canada. They have great support whenever you need it. So the team is available seven days a week, offering knowledgeable support. And they have a 30 day satisfaction guarantee. So if you're not completely in love with your new furniture, you could easily return it. If you're in the market for a new sofa, dining table, or bed, head over to article.com.

• 30:58Ashley Hesseltine?

  Okay, and Revolve. Oh my God, Raina, what are you shopping for right now in Revolve?

• 31:02Rayna Greenberg?

  I just ordered actually the entirety of my tour outfits from Revolve.

• 31:06Ashley Hesseltine?

  Totally, I feel you on that.

• 31:07Rayna Greenberg?

  We're going to a bachelorette party, which we've just gotten back from. And I just want like different cute tops for the tour. So I just did like a giant haul. There's obviously tons of brands and styles and there is nothing better than their shipping time, which is two days usually, and their customer support. I mean, I love all of it.

• 31:21Ashley Hesseltine?

  It's the best. Yeah. So for Alyssa's Bachelorette, she did some themes and just color, nothing crazy, but like one night was like a neutrals and nudes theme, which I was obsessed with. So I got right on Revolve and searched by brown and beige, whatever. Yeah, you can search sets by color. And of course, they have their different collections and stuff. So you can shop by vacation. So I was looking at their vacation shop clothing for the, with stuff that we were going to wear on this boat. And I mean, everything I'm wearing for that weekend will be from Revolve. So anything that you guys need, I mean, these jeans are on Revolve, or they used to be, they're a little older, but they are paged. So they have all your great denim brands, so many different incredible brands.

• 31:58Rayna Greenberg?

  I did Reza for my tour tops, R E S A, and AFRM for a lot of like little dresses and tops.

• 32:04Ashley Hesseltine?

  Yes, I love Lovers and Friends. They have Amanda Uprichard, Norma Kamali, A. Goldie, Super Down. That's like a Revolve brand. It's really affordable, really cute stuff. Free people, there is new arrivals daily inclusive sizing with options from extra, extra small up to 4X. We just love it. It's the best customer service. So easy to do returns and exchanges. And again, that fast, free shipping, you just cannot beat it. It is just a go to for everything. And you can get all your clothes for any special event, wedding, night out, vacation, the whole thing. So whether it's a weekend away, a big night out, or just a much needed wardrobe refresh, your dream wardrobe is just one click away. Head to revolve.com/gge,

• 32:44Ashley Hesseltine?

  shop our edit and take 15% off your first order with code GGE. Fast, two day shipping, easy returns. It's literally the only place you need to shop from. That's revolve.com/gge to shop our favorites and get 15% off your first order with code GGE. Okay. And the offer ends February 19th. So shop now. They don't do this a lot. We say this every time, but take advantage of that deal, that 15% off. And it is going to end February 19th. revolve.com/gge. And now we will get into it.

• 33:16Rayna Greenberg?

  All right, guys, we are very excited to welcome our guest back for a three-peat. She is a therapist and a highly sought after relationship expert, plus the author of two New York Times bestsellers, Set Boundaries, Find Peace, and Drama Free, I think soon to be three time New York Times bestseller of her new book, The Balancing Act. Please welcome to the show my boundaries queen, Nedra Glover-Twab.

• 33:39Speaker 00

  Thank you for having me. Such a warm welcome. You should wake me up in the morning. I need to record that. So I can, you can be like my alarm.

• 33:46Rayna Greenberg?

  Like the opposite of the Calm app, the Get Hype app.

• 33:49Ashley Hesseltine?

  Wake the fuck up bitch. You got your third bestseller in the way.

• 33:53Rayna Greenberg?

  Nedra, I feel like I tell you this every time we record, I probably quote you the most of any get, you and Esther Perel, the most of any guests. Do you think that's accurate?

• 34:02Ashley Hesseltine?

  A hundred percent.

• 34:03Rayna Greenberg?

  Just in conversation all the time I talk about you.

• 34:06Ashley Hesseltine?

  I feel like you've changed Raina's life.

• 34:08Rayna Greenberg?

  Yeah.

• 34:10Rayna Greenberg?

  Don't laugh.

• 34:11Speaker 00

  Who was she before me? I mean, was she even Raina?

• 34:16Rayna Greenberg?

  No. I don't remember pre Nedra Raina.

• 34:20Speaker 00

  Right. Who does?

• 34:21Rayna Greenberg?

  Yeah. Like if a week has gone by and she hasn't brought you up for the last three years, two years.

• 34:28Speaker 00

  I appreciate it.

• 34:29Rayna Greenberg?

  Yes. Yes. Well, I'm sure you've changed a lot of people's lives. And you, I joke that you're the boundaries queen, but like you really taught us and the nation about boundaries and this has become such a buzzword and then your follow up book was specifically boundaries with family members. And this is kind of a pivot, the balancing act and it's, well, tell us about it. Tell us about the book and the pivot into a sort of a new topic.

• 34:49Ashley Hesseltine?

  And the inspiration?

• 34:50Speaker 00

  A pivot. Um, I see it as an integration of how to do boundaries and dependency well.

• 35:00Rayna Greenberg?

  Great.

• 35:01Speaker 00

  Because I think that there is this idea that for some of us, that boundaries apply to everybody in every single way and all the time. And in this book, I am saying, there are actually healthy ways to be dependent. There are things that we have to do as a byproduct of being in a relationship with people. It's not always convenient. It's not always fun, but it needs to be done. Yes, codependency is not always great, but aren't we happy when the codependent has someone else and not us? Like, they need people too. You know, so I think we need to look at this as a fuller picture in terms of boundaries and not just like boundaries for me and no one else. So I do some talking about like, what if a friend

• 35:46Speaker 00

  wants space with you? What if, what if your partner wants some space? You know, we, we have heard so much about like, I need, I need, I need. We're in community. And unfortunately, we're in a loneliness epidemic, not just because of boundaries, but you know, we're more inside, the world is more virtual and we are just losing connection. So I want to help people feel better connected without the stress of, I don't know how I'm going to be in this relationship because I either go in with no boundaries, or I'm codependent, or I have this problem. Like, you can do it. I'm, I'm rooting for you. You can be in these relationships without losing your mind.

• 36:29Ashley Hesseltine?

  Well, we have a lot to talk about, especially on the dependency, healthy dependency, codependency, but since you brought it up, let's talk about this concept that we discussed on an episode a few weeks back about everyone wants a village, but no one wants to be a villager. And we want to ask you, boundaries queen, are people over-boundaried?

• 36:50Speaker 00

  Some people are. I've never seen us all do this in the middle of an episode. I know, I have that effect.

• 36:55Ashley Hesseltine?

  Yeah, the outfit.

• 36:56Speaker 00

  And some instances, we are over-boundary, but I also think that when we haven't practiced something, we go at it very hard.

• 37:05Ashley Hesseltine?

  Hmm.

• 37:06Speaker 00

  And there's this like high, and then we sort of like smooth out. And many of us, because boundaries is such a new practice, and we're like, ah, yes, I have the juice now, and we're giving everybody the boundary, we're not doing it softly. Sometimes we're doing it aggressively and not assertively. We're overdoing it in some instances. So it, it does happen, but, but I would say it's a, it's a good thing to have boundaries. It always has been, but I do think we need to consider who, what, where, how.

• 37:35Ashley Hesseltine?

  Well, we asked you, if someone just doesn't want to show up to your birthday party, is that a boundary? Like, when, where's the misuse coming in for when it comes to not showing up for your community?

• 37:47Speaker 00

  Hmm. So if I, Nedra, Tawwab, was to not show up to a friend's party, I would, one, send them a message with the reason why. Two, I would let them, well, before that, I would let them know in advance, so you are already not expecting me there.

• 38:08Ashley Hesseltine?

  Mm-hmm.

• 38:09Speaker 00

  And two, I want to let you know why, because I care about this relationship. I'm not coming just because I don't want to be there. I'm not coming because I'm out of town, or I have something else booked that day that I can't get out of. And three, One of the things that I think is really important is repair. So if I'm not coming to your birthday party, hey, girl, can we grab a coffee next week? Can we have dinner separately? I still want to celebrate your, your birthday. I just won't be able to make this thing. Mm hmm. What ruins relationships is, and I've been in this situation, people no call, no show. Mm hmm. They no call, no show. Yeah. They act like nothing happened. Mm hmm. Then they're texting you, have you watched his and hers? You ain't even coming to my birthday party. I did forget it.

• 38:54Speaker 00

  I'm so confused. Like, yeah, like. You have to keep your people in the fold. You have to keep them in the loop. And these are not toxic relationships. Like, I, I think some boundaries apply to toxic situations, toxic relationships. But if you're applying a boundary where it doesn't need to be, you're not using it, using it for its intended purpose.

• 39:17Rayna Greenberg?

  Mm hmm. Some people are a little fast and loose. And I mean, it's a real trigger for me, like when we have live shows and we include people in it. We give people tickets and we invite them. And like, it's happened once or twice to me with a friend that like the night of the show, they'll be like, hey, girl, I can't come. Anyways, have a great show. I'm like, are you gonna?

• 39:31Speaker 00

  Or no call, no show.

• 39:33Rayna Greenberg?

  Apologize to me?

• 39:34Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 39:34Rayna Greenberg?

  Yeah. Taking money out of my pocket, taking a seat away from somebody that would have used it, treating something that's important to me like it doesn't matter. All those things really, but like, you could cancel plans on me if you do it ahead of time and not, when I'm about to walk on stage and act like you don't care.

• 39:47Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 39:47Rayna Greenberg?

  It's a trigger for me.

• 39:48Speaker 00

  Yeah, I, I had lost a friendship once because I had a friend who was always on her way to the thing, but never showed up.

• 39:56Rayna Greenberg?

  That's crazy. What happened, girl, on the way?

• 39:59Speaker 00

  Are you alive?

• 40:01Rayna Greenberg?

  Like, was she on, she wasn't really on her way?

• 40:03Speaker 00

  Yeah, like, hey, I'm, I'm on my way. It's like, but she never showed up. Like, what happened on the way? So after she did that a few times, she lost her invite privilege.

• 40:12Rayna Greenberg?

  Yeah.

• 40:13Speaker 00

  You're no longer on the list. And then that's when she's like, hey, you didn't invite me to the thing. And I had to say very clearly, you don't show up.

• 40:21Ashley Hesseltine?

  Right.

• 40:22Speaker 00

  You don't show up.

• 40:22Ashley Hesseltine?

  And that's not an insult, that's just.

• 40:24Speaker 00

  That's just the fact, and that doesn't mean I don't want to be your friend anymore. So here's the thing, I think sometimes we have these conflicts and instead of it just being a conflict, we take it as the relationship is over. No, no. You're just not invited because you have not proven that you'll show up. If you want to regain privileges, you need to work on that. I don't need to help you through that because a lot of times if I'm planning something, I'm accounting for food, I'm accounting for entertainment sometimes. You know, like these things cost, so you not showing up still costs me a hundred dollars.

• 41:04Ashley Hesseltine?

  Right.

• 41:05Speaker 00

  Because I, I have to pay this person in advance. What do I say, hey, hey, that money that I gave you, give me some back. They not coming.

• 41:14Speaker 00

  No.

• 41:14Ashley Hesseltine?

  But like some people I think are like, it's my boundary and it's like, this is just a crock of shit. Don't therapy language me into your bad behavior. Or you're just tired, or, or you had a long day, but that's life. Like, that's what we talked about in our podcast, like, we understand if you are gonna show up to a social event, have a panic attack, but if you just are a little tired or it's a minor inconvenience, I, I'm still showing up, that's, I want to be the friend that shows up if it's not the thing I want to do the most in that moment.

• 41:44Speaker 00

  Well, two things here, one thing is, I recently had a friend, and I already knew this about her, but I'm so happy she said it, I do not invite her to things where it's gonna be ten or more people. I, personality wise, I know she's gonna dislike it, it's not her vibe. So recently, she said to me, if it's gonna be other people there, I don't want to go. So just include me for one-on-one things. Which is on brand for her because she will, she'll let you know in advance, she'll let, you know, she'll give you some reason. She follows up with an independent thing, she does all the, the right protocol. But after a while, I, it's just like, she doesn't want to be here. She doesn't want to be at a large gathering, she's like, I prefer a one-on-one experience.

• 42:29Speaker 00

  So she doesn't care about being invited to the birthday party, the dinner, she's like, I don't want to be here anyway, please don't make me come.

• 42:36Ashley Hesseltine?

  Exactly.

• 42:38Speaker 00

  And, and for her, it's like, I feel our connection one on one and not with

• 42:44Ashley Hesseltine?

  Yes.

• 42:44Speaker 00

  fourteen people around and you're going and you're talking and da, da, da, da, da, da. And I'm okay with that because I have other friends who will come to every single thing. I'm not saying that every friend has to do the same thing. Our connection is very deep despite her not doing that.

• 42:59Ashley Hesseltine?

  Totally.

• 43:00Speaker 00

  The other thing is, what is a boundary? It is a need. I wouldn't say it's necessarily a rule, but it's something to keep you safe and comfortable in your relationships with other people. I think sometimes when you have a preference, is, is the preference a need? Is this a, a rule that maybe you have? Or is it a boundary? And I think there needs to be some distinction in how you're, you're saying it. But the boundary of I won't come to your party, but I go to other parties. Is that really a boundary? Or is that a preference for your party in particular? And if so, can we communicate something about that?

• 43:41Ashley Hesseltine?

  We love that. Yeah. I could talk about this for the rest of the time, but.

• 43:44Rayna Greenberg?

  We want to talk about your book. So the book is about creating healthy dependency. So could you maybe talk a little about like, what is, what's quote unquote, healthy versus non healthy? And then we can get into the subcategories of like codependency. But broadly, what does dependency look like?

• 43:58Ashley Hesseltine?

  And I do really want your definition of codependency because I feel like I have, still can't seem to get a grasp on that word.

• 44:04Rayna Greenberg?

  Well, let's talk about healthy and unhealthy and like get into these like subtopics.

• 44:07Ashley Hesseltine?

  Yeah.

• 44:08Speaker 00

  Well, codependency is when you are helping in a counterproductive way to another person. There is some emotional tie to that situation. It really gets in the way of your growth and the other person's growth. The word codependency became popular from the AA community, right? So it became a thing in that community around like people who have helped us stay addicts are codependent with us. And sometimes I've been codependent in helping people in their addiction. So I'm giving them money. I am, you know.

• 44:49Ashley Hesseltine?

  Enabling.

• 44:50Speaker 00

  Enabling, I am, you know, so it it sort of came out of that branch of things. However, we can be codependent in other ways. You can be codependent in a friendship. You can give people so much advice that you're like, oh, my gosh, every time they have a problem, they have to call me and I'm on the phone for four hours problem solving. So that can also be codependency. So it's really attached to a negative or unhealthy behavior of some sort. Enmeshment would be another form of not necessarily codependency, but an unhealthy dependency. Enmeshment, I will say, is only problematic when the people start to pull apart from each other.

• 45:33Speaker 00

  So it's really not a problem until you like go home and you meet your partner's family and you find out that he sleeps in a bed with his mom.

• 45:40Ashley Hesseltine?

  Right. And we do want to talk about enmeshed families and friendships.

• 45:45Speaker 00

  Yeah, and you're like, oh, wow. Or you notice that they have this whole cuddle situation going together on the, you know, on the couch and you're like, wow, like, we typically hold hands, but I didn't know you like really get in there with your mom. Like, so then it's like, wow, and it's like, yeah, this is how it is. And mom is calling all times of the day and da, da, da, da. So that's when it starts to be a problem because now you're like, oh, my gosh, my partner cannot separate from his mom or from his family. So enmeshment is one of those things where if two people agree to it.

• 46:19Ashley Hesseltine?

  Totally.

• 46:20Speaker 00

  No problem.

• 46:20Ashley Hesseltine?

  Yep, yeah.

• 46:21Speaker 00

  It's not until one of the folks decides I want something different. Or typically, when somebody else comes into that dynamic and it's like, what am I watching?

• 46:32Ashley Hesseltine?

  Right, someone challenges the.

• 46:33Speaker 00

  Yeah, it's like, what am I seeing? So it's it's normal for your mom to cut your food.

• 46:38Ashley Hesseltine?

  We're like brothers and sisters.

• 46:40Speaker 00

  Brothers and sisters.

• 46:41Ashley Hesseltine?

  Best, best friends.

• 46:43Rayna Greenberg?

  I see a lot of best friends. I mean, Ashley and I are business partners, we're so enmeshed in each other's lives. We have the same friend groups. I spend holidays with her family and we're in business together almost a decade. We have a second business. Yeah, it would be a real problem for me if I didn't like, like her partner. I mean, I can't, it's my worst nightmare in the world that like, I wouldn't like, love the person she was married to. But I mean, the scenario I feel like you see more often would have been that he came around, whether you liked him or not, and you were really jealous and you were like calling me all the time where, aren't you like, it's just, and we've all seen that. And I think that happens a lot when you're younger too. This happened not at all, by this way. I'm just kind of, the scenario would have been you freaking out. Yeah. Which you did. Like Regina George, and she was like, and then all of a sudden in seventh grade, I got a boyfriend. And she was like, why didn't you call me back? Yeah. She was in love with me, right?

• 47:28Rayna Greenberg?

  I can see that in like friendships with, with people that are very close.

• 47:31Speaker 00

  There's more to the unhealthy. I think those are some of the things we're more familiar with, but also on the unhealthy spectrum is hyper independence. When we do not accept help, we do not ask for help. We have this spirit of DIY.

• 47:49Rayna Greenberg?

  Okay.

• 47:50Speaker 00

  Anything that needs to be done, I can do it. I am self-sufficient. And what happens in those cases is when you actually need someone, you struggle to find anybody because you have disconnected so much, or you are just without resources.

• 48:05Rayna Greenberg?

  Do you think that comes from people that like grew up in a household where like it, help wasn't available to them, so they became super independent?

• 48:13Speaker 00

  Sometimes, but I think all our wounds aren't always childhood, but maybe that could be it. But what if you, what if you were in, I don't know, a dating scenario where your partner made you feel that way. And so now going forward, you like questioned it about yourself. Like I think there's any sort of traumatic impact that could have happened to sort of change the way that you open your arms to people. And sometimes it is really a protection. Because you have been hurt by people, whether that's the family or other folks. And so it, it may seem easier. It may seem more appropriate for you to figure it out rather than lean on other people or go to them for any support.

• 48:55Rayna Greenberg?

  I love that you said that it's not just from your parents and that a partner can like rock your sense of self. Cause I had a girlfriend recently who we're friends with and a relationship, and her ex said to her like, you're totally dependent on me and I have to do everything for you. And I, it really rocked her sense of self. And I was like, that's not what you're like. This is how this person has made you feel.

• 49:12Ashley Hesseltine?

  Made you feel, yeah.

• 49:12Rayna Greenberg?

  But you're so independent, you're so, I mean, she's just, I don't know, I like that you said that a partner can rock your sense of self. Because that's how they see you through that lens, but that's not how we see her at all.

• 49:23Ashley Hesseltine?

  Yeah.

• 49:23Rayna Greenberg?

  Helpless.

• 49:24Ashley Hesseltine?

  I mean, and like, I can see a world in which maybe innately someone has always been super independent and they finally let the walls down and they leaned on someone and they got burned. And I mean, you would just never want to do it again, whether it was a family member or a friend or a partner, where you're like, okay, I'm going to be vulnerable. I'm going to reach my hand out and ask for help and you felt some sort of like, it wasn't what you expected or you felt rejected. So I can understand why you wouldn't want to do that again.

• 49:50Speaker 00

  Well, different people, if we're meeting different people, we're not dating the same person, we're not meeting the same friend. We can't get that sister or that brother again in this lifetime. If we're meeting new people, there is the potential for us to practice what we learned. You are aware of those indicators of a person who will use certain things to their advantage and not yours. You are aware of a person who will maybe call you needy or do these things. So I, I understand that our natural reaction is just to retreat and to forget that we even have that need. Because it's been, you know, thrown in our face or it's been abused or we haven't figured it out.

• 50:33Speaker 00

  But, you know, I think it's really important to reclaim that, that we can be needy. And, and that's a healthy thing. When I think about neediness, like, you know, I'll have a client here and they'll be like, am I being too needy? And I'm like, it depends on the person you're talking to. Some people love to talk on the phone every day and that's not needy at all. Others do not. So I don't want you to feel like that behavior is inappropriate. For some people, it doesn't work. It doesn't mean they're bad people, but if you have enough people in your life, you won't even notice the person who, who doesn't like that thing. Cause you have seven other people to talk to.

• 51:09Ashley Hesseltine?

  Right, the village, you need the village.

• 51:11Rayna Greenberg?

  Yeah.

• 51:11Ashley Hesseltine?

  I mean, there are people, I don't read myself as needy, but like, there's probably some people that would see my need to send all these voice notes all day long. Talk about all my thoughts and feelings as needy or annoying. That's not true. That's not my person.

• 51:21Speaker 00

  And some people love them.

• 51:23Ashley Hesseltine?

  And people generally love them. Yeah. Like, I love this point. You know how you can act with certain friends. Yeah. Like, I'm thinking of the way that we, again, we're best friends. Let's just take us out of it. I have friends that, I have a friend that, like, she is just, she's bad on text and she's not always available. And I really love her and I can rely on her, but I can't, if I thought I could text and voice note with her all day, the way I do with you, I would be sorely mistaken. Like, I would be rejected and let down. So, we all kind of have to pick up on the way people communicate and want to be your friend. Yes. And if you're not getting enough, you're not getting anything at all, and you feel like someone, you can't rely on somebody that's different.

• 52:04Ashley Hesseltine?

  But I think the communication is, I think about that. I have friends that I'm like, I can't, I can't be like that with them. That would be crazy. Yeah.

• 52:10Rayna Greenberg?

  Or sometimes I've beaten a dead horse so much with one audience and I need to move on to a new audience.

• 52:15Speaker 00

  Yeah, I had someone tell me, you know, my expectation is that if people can't respond to a text, that they text me and say that they can't respond or look at it. And I was like, what? So they have to respond even if they can't say they can't respond?

• 52:32Speaker 00

  Yeah, it's like they ghosted me if I text you at 12 o'clock and I text you about this scenario and by four o'clock you haven't said anything, you should at least look at it and say, I see this.

• 52:43Ashley Hesseltine?

  I think you'd start to, I don't know, you start to pick up on people's communication. I have friends I've made here and they are slower to text. We might, it might be a day, but they're doing other stuff, they're working, they have emails. Like, I think I've learned to expect more that we don't get immediate responses from people all the time.

• 53:02Rayna Greenberg?

  Sometimes I'm like, I have all these DMs and now you've given me an R project, I have to respond to all this. You decided to communicate with me. I did not communicate with you. And so, sometimes I need to get through my day before I'm available to respond to this because you decided to communicate with me, not the other way around.

• 53:17Speaker 00

  Yeah, so it's it's really about managing our expectations.

• 53:21Ashley Hesseltine?

  Mm hmm.

• 53:21Speaker 00

  And not putting that on other people to always fulfill our needs because of our expectations. Like, sometimes we have to adjust based on the person. It doesn't mean that they're toxic. It doesn't mean they're emotionally unavailable, but it might mean that they didn't have their phone in their hand for eight hours.

• 53:39Ashley Hesseltine?

  Right.

• 53:40Speaker 00

  It it might mean that, you know, they had a busy day and they want to decompress by not looking at a bunch of, you know, messages.

• 53:48Ashley Hesseltine?

  Or they might not have an answer, you know, like I think when you're making plans, it's like, sometimes people need to check their schedule. They need to see if they can make it. And some people might write, I'll get back to you, and some people might not. That's okay.

• 53:59Rayna Greenberg?

  I like this idea that we can show up as different people in different relationships too. And I wonder like what you would call this. But like I had one relationship when I was in my early twenties, who's like my first boyfriend in New York. And I've always been a pretty independent person. I can figure things out myself. I think of myself as very like type A. But I had this boyfriend who was pretty controlling. He made the decisions for everywhere we went, where we would eat, all the things. I felt like he was, he made me feel like he was smarter than me. I do relate to this being a very young trait as well. I was twenty two or twenty three in this relationship. But I really became this version of myself that was so dependent on him for like my thoughts and feelings and my ideas. And I don't identify as that, but like I suddenly needed to defer to another person for how I thought and felt. And that was really outside of my body. And I've never since or before experienced that.

• 54:44Rayna Greenberg?

  But like I showed up as a different person in that relationship because of that person. And I guess that's codependency, kind of?

• 54:50Speaker 00

  Um, yes, it it it is codependency, but it brings me to a thought about attachments, which I talk about in this book. And so, you know, a lot of people may believe that your attachment is fixed, right? Like if you have an anxious attachment, that's how you are in every relationship. And what you're saying is different relationship, different me. There are some people who we meet in the world where they show up a certain way and we respond to that. He wanted to be the leader. He wanted to be in charge. He wanted to be the smarter person. So you showed up as this like, I don't know anything.

• 55:24Ashley Hesseltine?

  Yeah.

• 55:24Speaker 00

  And and and you went with that, right? So that doesn't mean you're always that way. It doesn't mean just because. You're avoidant in one connection that you will always be avoidant, that there is some flexibility in how we show up in spaces. I will say that with attachment styles that, you know, some of them do lend themselves to, to maybe a more hyper-dependent or hyper-independent. When you think about like a disorganized or anxious type of attachment, you're probably gonna lean a bit more towards that codependency end of the spectrum. And when you're more avoidant, you're more hyper-independent, right? Like, yeah, so, you know, what is the middle of that? Secure attachment?

• 56:10Rayna Greenberg?

  I think that's comforting for everybody to hear, that you can kind of change your attachment style depending on your partner.

• 56:15Ashley Hesseltine?

  So, that type of relationship I want to discuss, where, let's just say you have a woman who's in a relationship and is feeling like she is becoming dependent, she has lost her independence, and she can't live without this person, and he or she makes all the decisions, and you really have a loss of self. And can we kind of discuss what that looks like and how we get there? And how we make sure that doesn't happen? Because I think a lot of women are like, I wasn't this type of person before. I don't know what happened to me. I used, like our friend, we were talking about, I used to be independent and make my own decisions and not have my emotions regulated by my partner. And here we are.

• 56:54Speaker 00

  Yeah. Well, maybe this relates, maybe it doesn't, but I want to talk about it. Recently, I have rediscovered my love of playing solitaire with playing cards.

• 57:05Rayna Greenberg?

  Okay.

• 57:06Speaker 00

  It is so relaxing to just get all of these stacks and every seventh game maybe win, right? I used to do this all the time as a teenager. I would be on the telephone, talking to my friends, listening to some music in the background and playing solitaire. Like, that was my thing. I don't know why. It was my thing.

• 57:27Rayna Greenberg?

  Yeah, I loved it on the computer.

• 57:28Ashley Hesseltine?

  I used to play on the computer.

• 57:29Speaker 00

  Yeah, I did too, but it's something about playing with the cards that just feels really good. And I started doing it a few weeks ago, and my husband was like, you know, he's like watching me do it, and my kids are like, how do you know? Because I know all these different versions of it, with the playing cards. And they're like, how do you know this? I'm like, I used to do this all the time.

• 57:48Rayna Greenberg?

  Mm hmm.

• 57:49Speaker 00

  I don't even know why I stopped. Nobody said, hey, stop doing this. It was just like, we have it on our phones. And the reason I rediscovered it is a way to use my phone less. Right? So now I'm like, I'm going old school. And so sometimes it's not anybody asking us to abandon this part of ourselves. It's us giving it up.

• 58:08Rayna Greenberg?

  Mm hmm.

• 58:09Speaker 00

  Because we think it's necessary for this relationship.

• 58:12Rayna Greenberg?

  Yeah, I thought with that guy, and again, I being twenty two is very different. I was super young, but he was six years older than me. He made more money. He was more successful in this industry that I wanted to succeed in. He made me think that all my thoughts and ideas were immature and stupid and his were better and he had more experience and I just kind of went with it. And there was a lot of good stuff that came with that, too. You know, he had a lot of great connections in New York. We were always at great restaurants. Everybody would want to show up at the table and give us free food. And he knew a lot of people. He taught me a lot of things. I got good things from that relationship. But I did just defer to him. And I remember feeling like, who the fuck is, who am I? What happened here?

• 58:49Ashley Hesseltine?

  So how do you maintain your independence in a relationship and have the healthy dependency? I guess those are kind of the same.

• 58:57Speaker 00

  Yeah, I think you have to make time for it, even when it feels like it's no time.

• 59:01Rayna Greenberg?

  Mm hmm.

• 59:02Speaker 00

  You have to have those friend dates. You have to have that time with your partner. You have to have time with your kids and you have to have time with yourself. Very often, we try to figure out a way to give this one area a lot of our focus. And I think there are times, like if your kids are babies or something like that, but you know, the more they grow up is like the more freedom you get. The longer you're in a relationship with your partner is like the less you have to be enmeshed. It's like, okay, we've been sitting in each other's faces for a year. That's enough, right? It's like, I'm, I'm, I'm going back to my girls' nights. You know, you have to figure out a way to reincorporate some of that stuff that you have been holding back on.

• 59:43Speaker 00

  And if you never had that stuff and you feel lost, you have to figure out what those things are. You have to give your, um, Village, the opportunity to rise to you having other things on your plate and in your schedule. I had a friend last year who is a very busy lady, say, I'm going to do a triathlon. She didn't even know how to swim. She first had to take swim lessons to learn how to swim to do the triathlon. So now she's doing swim lessons multiple times a week and training for a triathlon with three kids, busy lady, never had time. And she's like, I need to do this for myself. It's a test of my strength. So even without having the

• 1:00:25Speaker 00

  time, we have to make it. Because if we don't, we get to, you know, many years and it's like, oh, I never did any of the things I wanted to do. I am not the person I thought I would be. And nobody did it to us. You know, sometimes we're doing it to ourselves.

• 1:00:39Ashley Hesseltine?

  But I see how it happens. I don't feel like this about my relationship, and I don't think anybody would say that about me. But I see how it can happen. I see how it can creep up on you. Every night you're together. And then if one person has a more robust social life, which would be me, it's like, I don't want to leave him at home. I don't, I don't think like this. I'm just saying, I can put myself in the shoes of it's like, you become so enmeshed, you have your thing you do every night, and then the girls want to go out. And you're like, but I can't, like, I get how it can slowly start to erode that independence. And so it is harder to change once you've gotten into the rut. So it's like, never stop the things if you can help it. But I also understand, you're in a new relationship, or you're raising children, and you want to commit more time to this

• 1:01:21Ashley Hesseltine?

  thing. But I can see how it happens. And you know, those people who were like, I can't leave him at home. And you guess you can't, what do you, and my parents are a great example of like, they've, my whole life, and they've been married 40 plus years, they travel separately, they travel together too. Not exclusively separately, but my mom does her girls trips, she has a million friends, my dad does his ski trips, my mom doesn't ski, and they have always kept those things of their own.

• 1:01:46Speaker 00

  Separate interests are so important.

• 1:01:49Ashley Hesseltine?

  Yes.

• 1:01:50Speaker 00

  For long term relationships. There are some couples in the world where they don't need anybody else, but he does.

• 1:01:55Ashley Hesseltine?

  Yes, there are, there really are. And if they're happy, that's great.

• 1:01:58Speaker 00

  And if that's working for you, that's great. I'm not talking to you. I'm talking to The people who are like, gosh, we spend every minute together and I would love to have some friends. Okay, I feel like I was very heavy in the season of parenting. And I would say about two years ago, I was parenting very heavy and I was very busy with work. Probably at the time, like four books in, like super busy. And I had to send a few texts out, just acknowledging that I have not been present in some of these relationships. And I see why y'all be on Instagram together and I ain't there. Cause I have issued so many no's, I can't, that I'm no longer on the guest list. And so now that I noticed that, I will try my best to make myself available for this thing.

• 1:02:43Speaker 00

  Give me the day, I'll figure something out, I'm gonna try to be there. And if I can't, again, we're going back to, okay, I couldn't do it that day, can we do it on this? Can we connect at another time? I'm also initiating the invites, but I have been that person where it's like, oh, everything is going on and I gotta go home. My man, my man, my man, the, the key is, the key is, the key is in work, right? But it's not full, life is not full, like I, I need some things for myself as well, we all do.

• 1:03:11Rayna Greenberg?

  I feel for people though, they're like, I have to be a parent, I have to have a relationship with my spouse, I gotta work. Now I gotta work my friends into this, like, that is so much to take on. I mean, I feel for people that are like, I gotta do all these things.

• 1:03:23Speaker 00

  It is a lot.

• 1:03:24Rayna Greenberg?

  It's a lot, and even promising yourself like once a month, that you'll go out and have something outside of all those people, like your job, your spouse, your children. I think is great. I don't know how I would find the time, honestly.

• 1:03:37Ashley Hesseltine?

  Yeah, and I think people understand, especially kids. Kids and then for those early days of falling in love and you really wanna prioritize that person. And my best friend, since I was a kid, has three children, one's a stepchild and she has a special needs son. And she, what she did to make it, I could cry, to be there for me for every day of the bachelorette, every day of the wedding. She came in a day early, like, I think some people were like, is she gonna make it? She's, cause they know what she's dealing with and it had to be so planned in advance. The whole family had to rally around and watch the kids, her husband came too, had to rally around and watch the kids. And like, everyone had to step in and make sure she could get away.

• 1:04:16Speaker 00

  Is she taking new best friends? Seriously.

• 1:04:19Ashley Hesseltine?

  I mean, it

• 1:04:20Speaker 00

  She's sound like amazing person.

• 1:04:21Ashley Hesseltine?

  The world and she can't up and go on a trip here and there. She doesn't always have that luxury, but I think those things that meant the world to me. It didn't go unnoticed, of course, and you and all my friends were like, wow, she's first person here, last person to leave and she's got the most on her plate.

• 1:04:38Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:04:38Ashley Hesseltine?

  And sometimes you just have to, to, to do that.

• 1:04:41Speaker 00

  Yeah, I, I think a part of most relationships is inconvenience. If you're not being inconvenience, you might be the problem.

• 1:04:55Speaker 00

  I want to ask you that. People can't even rely on you.

• 1:04:58Ashley Hesseltine?

  Right. But that's what we talked about, the protecting your peace hasn't gone too far.

• 1:05:03Speaker 00

  Yeah, it's like if no, if, if you have not been inconvenience, mirror, mirror on the wall.

• 1:05:11Ashley Hesseltine?

  Right, like I do think about Cory, like what she had to go through to make that shit happen. It must've had to be spreadsheets on what parents are coming, like it must've been so, to organize them to get away for four or five days is an insane amount of logistics that same with my brother, bringing two kids to LA, all the things, the cars, the car seats, like that shit is, was so much admin for them to come. And they made it work and like he wasn't complaining to me, but we talked about how fucking annoying it is to, to do this, to show up.

• 1:05:45Speaker 00

  Yeah, wow, and, and I think even scheduling a night out with friends, you guys are on these texts, the back and forth.

• 1:05:54Ashley Hesseltine?

  I can't.

• 1:05:55Speaker 00

  Of scheduling with a lady.

• 1:05:56Ashley Hesseltine?

  I can't.

• 1:05:57Speaker 00

  Is like.

• 1:05:58Ashley Hesseltine?

  A lady.

• 1:05:59Speaker 00

  Let's stop, let's, let's stop the friendship because we can't even be, women, we just have so, oh no, not on the 17th because on the 17th at five, I have this, oh no, not on the 20th. It's like a constant thing of just trying to get those schedules together. So when you can get out with that person, it's like, what a gift that we, we have worked so hard to be here.

• 1:06:25Speaker 00

  Worked so hard to be here together. Let's just say together, we deserve a reward because we have really strategically placed our schedules on the same day. That is, that is worthy of praise.

• 1:06:42Ashley Hesseltine?

  Yeah, and put your phones away, like soak it up.

• 1:06:45Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 1:06:46Ashley Hesseltine?

  Cause it's not gonna happen for another year.

• 1:06:47Speaker 00

  This is our Golden Globes. Like this moment is our award.

• 1:06:52Ashley Hesseltine?

  Our Super Bowl.

• 1:06:52Rayna Greenberg?

  I think we've like lost friends to their kids and I, that's fine, I'll get them back at some point.

• 1:06:57Speaker 00

  You will, you will get them back.

• 1:06:58Rayna Greenberg?

  I'm not worried about that. You have a past for life. I couldn't do what you do. I don't want to do what you do. It's, I spent an hour alone with a kid, it was too much for me. So, because you don't want to hang out with kids, that's your boundary. That's my boundary, I don't want to hang out with your kid, but for an hour, it's for an hour. It's fine. But like when you lose friends to, because they are so codependent on their relationship, it's like really disappointing. We've seen it in our adult, I really thought this was like a high school, college type thing, but we lost a friend to her relationship.

• 1:07:26Speaker 00

  Lost a friend.

• 1:07:27Rayna Greenberg?

  And it's pretty crazy to me and I do see how people are like, I have wanted love and partnership for so long and I will do anything to protect this. This is the most important thing in the world, but it is so disappointing. And I mean, I think that you do have to just force yourself to like schedule plans with friends.

• 1:07:44Speaker 00

  But let's say we have a friend like that, it was a great friendship and then they got married or they did whatever and it's like, oh my gosh, this has really shifted. Does that mean the friendship is over or is it in another season?

• 1:07:57Rayna Greenberg?

  Exactly.

• 1:07:58Speaker 00

  Like maybe this is now the friend who you speak to by text four times a year. Or maybe you get together once a year versus you see each other every weekend. Like it doesn't mean like this person is gone, it's like, this is a new iteration of our friendship, right? Like we're, we're just doing something different in this season and when this person comes around, you know, maybe I'll be here, maybe I won't, but it doesn't mean that we have to completely lose the connection, it's just in a different place. And if I need that type of friendship with another person, I have to go find that person in the world. It's not this person anymore and that's okay.

• 1:08:37Ashley Hesseltine?

  And that's for you to decide. Yeah. Cause when they show up, are they a value add? You gotta, are, what, on a scale of one to 10, do, how much do they bring to the party?

• 1:08:46Speaker 00

  Well, I have several friends with no kids who are happily without children and, and they don't even want any kids. And I don't try to make them have a relationship where it's like, well, can I bring my kids and my kids wanna come out? It's like, our friendship is about us as adults, our history. It doesn't have to be this, I'm never inviting you to my kid's birthday party. Like, it's not my expectation.

• 1:09:09Ashley Hesseltine?

  I love you for that. Cause I always wanna be around my nephews. That's my family. And those are the, and Cory's kids too, I guess. But other than that, I remember getting lunch with a friend. Can I bring my son? No.

• 1:09:22Speaker 00

  No, why is he here?

• 1:09:23Ashley Hesseltine?

  Let's reschedule. Six, six years old or whatever the fuck. What, I don't, I don't wanna go to lunch with you and your kid.

• 1:09:30Speaker 00

  Yeah. I have other friends who are childless, who are like sending my kids Christmas gifts and they wanna talk to them on the phone.

• 1:09:35Ashley Hesseltine?

  Yeah.

• 1:09:36Speaker 00

  So it's like, what is the relationship? Not, my expectation for every single human is not the same.

• 1:09:42Ashley Hesseltine?

  I guess it just, yeah, it depends on the kid.

• 1:09:44Speaker 00

  Everyone is unique. And the kid's personality sometimes, just like your personality. There are certain kids who have a certain warmth with certain friends and not others.

• 1:09:54Ashley Hesseltine?

  But also the parent, because however you wanna parent, that's your business. But there are parents who, if the kid is there, that's their attention. You can't tell a story. You can't get their focus.

• 1:10:03Speaker 00

  You must know my kids.

• 1:10:04Ashley Hesseltine?

  Are you that parent?

• 1:10:06Speaker 00

  No, no, no. I said the kids. I'm not the parent. I'm trying to ignore them, but they're talking.

• 1:10:09Ashley Hesseltine?

  Thank you. And then there's parents that are kinda do the whole, like mommy's talking. And you gotta figure your shit out and you have to entertain yourself. And it's just, I've been on both sides of it. And it's really hard to be with the parent that is that the second the kid needs their attention, they are on it.

• 1:10:26Speaker 00

  Well, what I've said to my kids is, do I disturb your playdates? Do I disturb your playdates? When you have your, they'll have their friends over and they're watching, I don't know zombies or uh, what's the new thing that keeps getting on the what?

• 1:10:41Rayna Greenberg?

  K-pop demon hunters?

• 1:10:42Speaker 00

  K-pop demon hunters and y'all have popcorn and all this stuff. I don't come in there and sit in the middle of y'all and start bringing up random stuff. Don't do that to me. Don't do that to me. I don't do it to you. My kids are nine and 12, so yeah, so we're at that phase, but if you let them, they will certainly be like, "Mom, mom, I don't do that to you. I just want you to see how I'm not treating you that way now. If you want equal treatment, if you want equal treatment, I could give it. You keep interrupting me. Wait, wait till Christian comes down the street. I'mma, I'mma be all up in there.

• 1:11:18Rayna Greenberg?

  Oh my God, I love that.

• 1:11:20Speaker 00

  And the other day when, yeah, I'm like, we, you have to be respectful. My friends are not over all the time. So when they come over, find your business.

• 1:11:30Rayna Greenberg?

  Do you see people create like unhealthy dependency with their children? I'm sure you do.

• 1:11:34Speaker 00

  Yes, yes.

• 1:11:35Rayna Greenberg?

  Like can't break that, like you'll never get the.

• 1:11:37Speaker 00

  Yeah, I'm watching this show, Tiffany Haddish uh, has some like adventure show or something. So I'm, I'm watching it and one of her friends on the show, I think moves to the state that her daughter goes to college. And all of them are like, oh my gosh, like you're codependent, you need to get a life. Like why are you?

• 1:11:55Rayna Greenberg?

  Those parents are so interesting to me.

• 1:11:56Speaker 00

  Why are you in the same state as her? I don't have enough information to make an assessment. You know, I'm, I'm thinking, what if her child really does have some, some like emotional issues and need that level of support? I don't know. Or it could be the mom where she's like, oh God, oh my gosh, my baby is gone. I want to be there all the time. So yeah, parents have it. That's helicopter parenting, right? That's the parenting where, you know, you have these kids going off to college and they can't survive that first semester because they don't know how to do anything outside of the parent helping them. So yeah, of course people have dependency issues with their kids.

• 1:12:32Rayna Greenberg?

  You do see that and girls are like, I call my mom five times a day. I could never related to anything less in my entire life. Maybe we would talk once every two weeks, like.

• 1:12:40Ashley Hesseltine?

  I used to when I was younger.

• 1:12:41Rayna Greenberg?

  Yeah. And I just, I, to your point earlier, like, it depends on how you digest that relationship. Some, for some people, that's very healthy. And they love the safety net of their mom being their best friend. For other people, that would really annoy them and erode their boundaries. So I guess it's just how you digest it and how your partner digests it. I, I can see a partner being like, I would like to not have your parents involved in every single thing.

• 1:13:00Speaker 00

  Unless their parents are highly involved, and then it would be a problem.

• 1:13:03Ashley Hesseltine?

  Well, God, what does that look like? Two, a couple were both enmeshed with their parents? What are we even doing?

• 1:13:09Rayna Greenberg?

  But have you dated anybody like that? That's just like, I gotta call my mom or a sibling every time anything happens?

• 1:13:14Ashley Hesseltine?

  Yeah, I, I mean, my college boyfriend was like, we really like that with his mom, but we're so young too. It's, I can't do it. I, it's not gonna be for me. My parents aren't like that. We don't have that relationship dynamic. I have a guy friend who I've only ever been platonic with, and I've spent time with him. And it's fascinating to watch his relationship with his parents. And it is nonstop, all day, gotta talk to the whole family. And it, it's a problem with his relationships. Cause the mom is the top. She comes first above anyone else, including a romantic partner. And I have mixed thoughts on this too. I'm just like, I don't think a romantic partner gets to come in and be top priority over the family you've had your whole life and all these things.

• 1:13:59Ashley Hesseltine?

  But it, yeah, like, so we wanna talk about this. Like, maybe we start with family, like enmeshment with family. And if you're dating someone like that, can you get through it? What can you offer to those people who are dealing with this?

• 1:14:12Speaker 00

  Yeah, I think you have to tread lightly because you're new in the system. This is the way that they've operated. Perhaps you see it as a problem on first sight. However, I think you have to really get into the system to understand what that is. Sometimes our initial reaction, especially you think of a person who's hyper independent. They do everything themselves. They don't have that, like, family loyalty and tie. And then they get into a relationship with someone who's talking to their parents several times a day. Of course, they're gonna see that as a huge problem. But is it possible with healthy love? So I think it's what's happening in those interactions. Can this? Person make a decision without their parents? Yes, but do they want to have somebody to talk through it with them?

• 1:14:54Speaker 00

  You know, I think that part of it matters like, or is it like, okay, mom, I'm about to like, is it a reporting or is it an informing and notifying? So, you know, I, I think it's, is really based on, you know, what we need in a relationship. And we have to think about how we attach to people and how others may attach. And maybe it is unhealthy and maybe it's not.

• 1:15:17Rayna Greenberg?

  That's a good point. And my sister-in-law and her mom talk four times a day. I think it's cute. I think it's adorable. And her parents don't erode the boundaries of her romantic relationship with my brother. I think that they're like, there's like a clear boundary. Like he still comes first to the marriage and things like that. But yeah, her mom calls her all day, every day. I had a sandwich. This is what I put on it. It's cute. It's nice. It's, it's a nice support system for her.

• 1:15:40Speaker 00

  And sometimes when we see people in relationships that we don't have, we automatically think of it as negative. So if I'm dating some person who has this, this relationship with their mom and I really talk to my mom, it's like, why are you talking to your mom every day? You know, it's like, what's wrong with you? And it's like, maybe nothing like this is just our cadence. It feels good. Like, what is the unhealthy part? Is she coming over and like rearranging your drawers or something?

• 1:16:09Rayna Greenberg?

  If that's the case, and it is, like you said, they can't make a decision without them. I mean, where do you go? Do you just kind of lead with curiosity? Do you start asking questions? You can't come in guns blazing. You can't, you can't act like this. You're obsessed with your mom. Like what, obviously.

• 1:16:24Speaker 00

  I think it's curiosity. Because that person has had such a long-term relationship with their family. Your partner is not going, going to hear you being critical right off.

• 1:16:37Rayna Greenberg?

  Totally.

• 1:16:38Speaker 00

  So you have to treat lightly in how you bring that up, but definitely bring it up, but in a curious sort of way. And, you know, hopefully they'll start to see it.

• 1:16:47Rayna Greenberg?

  I, well, that's, I know. We've talked about that with Lori Gottlieb, like if you can plant a seed. That they could reflect to.

• 1:16:55Speaker 00

  Right. Versus like, here's your problem in your relationship with your mom. Like, most people aren't going to take that. But if you're saying, just like, hey, I noticed that, you know, we were making this, a decision about buying a new car. And I thought we were talking through it, then you, you know, called your mom. Like, what was that about? Like, does she have really good experience on that?

• 1:17:18Rayna Greenberg?

  Is she paying for this?

• 1:17:19Speaker 00

  Right.

• 1:17:19Rayna Greenberg?

  Or does she own the dealership?

• 1:17:21Speaker 00

  Yeah, like, is she a car dealer?

• 1:17:23Rayna Greenberg?

  Yes.

• 1:17:23Speaker 00

  So I don't know, but maybe she is.

• 1:17:28Ashley Hesseltine?

  Can we talk a little bit about enmeshed friendships?

• 1:17:30Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 1:17:31Ashley Hesseltine?

  And you said something earlier that I want to circle back to when people need space. And that's tough to be in a situation where your friend wants space from you or, you know, the neediness we talk about. So I just think I want them to talk about these like enmeshed friendship relationships.

• 1:17:47Speaker 00

  Yeah, well, we have to choose our words carefully in relationships when we want to keep them. And so I don't think we go to people and say, I need space from you.

• 1:17:59Ashley Hesseltine?

  Totally. No, I agree. That it's like a dagger to the heart.

• 1:18:03Speaker 00

  That is not what to say, but I think sometimes we do say that. And what we need to reflect on is why we have that need within ourselves. I am doing a lot of healing work. I am, you know, having some personal shifts and I'm noticing that I need more time with myself. What that will look like for us is maybe we don't do every Thursday, whatever we were doing, right? So I might not be available for this thing. That's not making it about them. That's making it

• 1:18:36Ashley Hesseltine?

  Right, saying it about you.

• 1:18:36Speaker 00

  About you and what you have going on. Not every week I don't want to go to this thing with you. Whoa.

• 1:18:44Speaker 00

  Way to ruin a friendship.

• 1:18:45Ashley Hesseltine?

  Right, yeah.

• 1:18:46Speaker 00

  But there are ways to let a person know that, you know, based on the shifts that are happening in my life, I, you know, this is how it will reflect on you. Like, things are changing. I was going to Pilates for like, I don't know, six months with a friend and she was like, upon reflection, uh, this is not really on my driving path.

• 1:19:06Ashley Hesseltine?

  Oh, that's bad.

• 1:19:08Speaker 00

  Yeah, she's like, this is not

• 1:19:09Ashley Hesseltine?

  I would hate to lose my Pilates friend.

• 1:19:10Speaker 00

  Yeah, she's like, this is not on my driving path and getting here from work and changing in the bathroom. Like, it's just, it's just a thing. It's stressful. Like, I'm bowing out of Pilates. And I was like, okay, cool. But I'm seeing her tonight, so it'll be fun.

• 1:19:25Ashley Hesseltine?

  Okay, good. Okay, you have other plans?

• 1:19:25Speaker 00

  Yeah, wait, wait.

• 1:19:26Ashley Hesseltine?

  Well, you're gonna go to the comedy show?

• 1:19:27Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 1:19:28Ashley Hesseltine?

  Okay.

• 1:19:28Speaker 00

  She's here.

• 1:19:31Speaker 00

  Yeah, so it wasn't a ruined friendship. It's just like, I get that. My day is a little more flexible. So at five o'clock, I'm free to, you know, I might be done at three. So I'm going to Pilates now. That's fine. But she's working all day and getting off at five and going straight to, you know, so that's a different lifestyle. I understand that. Thank you for coming for the six months. That was kind of you to make that stretch. We can find other things to do during other times where it's more suitable.

• 1:19:59Rayna Greenberg?

  When I want space, I take it. There's nobody that I've ever been annoyed with. It's been like, we're gonna seem so great with me. Like, I, I do wear it on my sleeve, but it has been a lifelong battle for me to address those things early, dip them in the butt. Like, I'll take the space, but people feel that I'm taking the space from them. And it has been like a lifelong battle for me. I mean, you and I talked about this a couple summers ago with your book Drama Free and me avoiding conflict with my family and my brother saying to me, like, when you don't talk to me, because you feel like you don't love me. And he, I just thought I was like sparing him the uncomfortable conversations. But he was like, no, if I'm pissing you off, just tell me. Right. I'm an adult. I'll get through it, you know? And trusting that other people can hear those things and it's not going to ruin the whole relationship. We had a friend recently talking to me and

• 1:20:44Rayna Greenberg?

  she said, I avoid conflict. And I said, what are you scared of? And she said that people will leave me. And trusting that people aren't going to leave you. I think that it is like a lifelong battle to like, take the space and be able to be like, I need some space.

• 1:20:55Speaker 00

  Absolutely.

• 1:20:56Ashley Hesseltine?

  That's a nice way.

• 1:20:57Rayna Greenberg?

  Yeah.

• 1:20:59Ashley Hesseltine?

  What do you say to the best friends, the enmeshed friends, and on the other side where the one feels like she's losing her best friend to, let's just say, a guy, a romantic relationship, or whatever, whatever it may be?

• 1:21:12Speaker 00

  Yeah, I don't think you feel the void, but I think you incorporate more people. People have the option to want something different for themselves. There are some things that we can't give our friends. Sex. You know, so I think it's one of those things that we have to acknowledge. I get it. Like, you want that companionship. You want that level of relationship, and I am not providing that. I need to maybe figure out, is this available with someone else in my life? Or do I need to incorporate some new people? It is not an attack on our friendship. This is a growth thing for you. And I'm, I'm proud

• 1:21:52Speaker 00

  of you. I want you to be married. And also, this is how it will impact our relationship.

• 1:21:59Ashley Hesseltine?

  And can you have a standing weekly date? You know, like, we've all been in those situations where you're like, I'm losing her, you know, and you know, maybe I'll get her back. Like, I guess I feel like this is when you're in our twenties a lot. And so is there a world in which you're like, can we do dinner? Can we do Pilates? Can we do dinner? Can we have a

• 1:22:14Rayna Greenberg?

  Can you meet me halfway a little bit?

• 1:22:16Ashley Hesseltine?

  Yeah, yeah. Can I rely on you to?

• 1:22:18Rayna Greenberg?

  Because you're right. Like, we can't give our friends this romantic relationship unless we want to. But you don't begrudge your friend for going to find that. You're probably happy for them. But to feel like I've lost the friendship because of that is probably a pretty common experience.

• 1:22:29Speaker 00

  Well, yeah. Or can I come over for dinner? You know, it's not always going out. Maybe, you know, your husband goes in a other room, or your boyfriend goes in another room, and we sit down and we do our dinner, and that's our night. Maybe that's the way you fold this this third person into the relationship. So, you know, can we have something consistent? Yeah, but it's really on the two people in a relationship to figure out what that new cadence will be. And that requires some discomfort, maybe with some conversations.

• 1:22:59Ashley Hesseltine?

  That's a great call. Even when I reflect on friends, when I felt like that, I'd be hanging out with them and their partner. I'd be like, I'm coming over, you know, like and I-

• 1:23:06Rayna Greenberg?

  Every day of my life in LA is third wheel and fifth wheeling. I don't have a single, single friend. I don't have a single, single friend in LA anymore. All of them-

• 1:23:13Ashley Hesseltine?

  Aw, Reina.

• 1:23:13Rayna Greenberg?

  All of my, all of my social activities are with my friends and their husbands and boyfriends. I don't have a single activity ever, Friday night, Saturday morning.

• 1:23:23Ashley Hesseltine?

  I'm like, I can't push back on this.

• 1:23:25Rayna Greenberg?

  I mean, I'm gonna move back to New York, and Ashley's gonna come with me. I am really lucky. I was thinking the other day. I'm really lucky that my friends have chosen partners that are really wonderful. And all of our friends here have husbands, fiancés, boyfriends that I really like. It's important to me to ask them questions and engage with them because like, that is my life here, right now.

• 1:23:45Ashley Hesseltine?

  Yeah. And it's like, I look at when we're hanging out, it's just five friends, you know, like, two dudes, three women. Like, it's just like, not two couples who are on each other, sitting on each other's laps, you know, like, I get if you're around a couple that's really, truly making you feel like a third wheel or a fifth wheel. But like, luckily, when it's like that, it's just, we're all-

• 1:24:04Rayna Greenberg?

  Yeah. And I understand that, like, I have to tell myself, adults want to be with their partners. Adults want to be with their romantic partner.

• 1:24:11Speaker 00

  It's just a new friend. Yeah, it's like an addition to your friendship.

• 1:24:14Rayna Greenberg?

  Yeah.

• 1:24:15Ashley Hesseltine?

  Yeah.

• 1:24:16Rayna Greenberg?

  Or you move back to New York to go find your single friend.

• 1:24:18Ashley Hesseltine?

  But there's also nothing wrong with saying, let's do a girls' night.

• 1:24:22Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 1:24:22Ashley Hesseltine?

  I've need that. It's, it really fills my cup. Like, I don't want him to be with, like, attached to the hip. He doesn't want that either. If you say, can we make it a girls' night to your friends who are partnered? And they are offended or pushed back, I don't really know what to tell you to do there because girls' nights have been around since the history of time. Like, that's, that's no, that doesn't mean I hate your man. It means, can we just do a girls' night?

• 1:24:45Speaker 00

  Absolutely.

• 1:24:46Rayna Greenberg?

  I have a good balance of both.

• 1:24:48Ashley Hesseltine?

  So, maybe we close out with what healthy dependency looks like, and I think we've touched on it.

• 1:24:54Speaker 00

  I think it means that you show up in your relationships in a reflective, boundaried, boundaried on both sides and considerate way. We have to have care in our relationships. We have to accept help. We have to also offer it. We have to be willing to support people, and we will need support. So, I, I think things in terms of dependency, we have to think about the person who we're in a relationship with. There are some people where our dependency cannot be healthy. It can only be codependent, right? And then we may have to adjust there. But in most of our interactions,

• 1:25:34Speaker 00

  if we can strive to have some healthier situations, I think that's really helpful. And it makes us feel more connected. So, our, our goal should be to have, not necessarily more people, but deeper connections.

• 1:25:50Ashley Hesseltine?

  I love that.

• 1:25:50Rayna Greenberg?

  I love it. Nedra, every time you're on the show, it's so amazing for us. Is there anything else you want?

• 1:25:55Ashley Hesseltine?

  No, I think that's, I think that's great. We want people to buy the book and read the book. It's a great book. All of your books, honestly, are fantastic, whether you're dealing with boundaries or dependency, anything you want to address in your life. I mean, buy them all. But also, your Instagram is a wealth of great information. So, tell people where they can find you and anything else.

• 1:26:11Speaker 00

  Yes. So, I have a website, nadratuwap.com. And then my Instagram, my threads, all the places, nadratuwap.

• 1:26:19Rayna Greenberg?

  Okay. And congrats on the new book, The Balancing Act.

• 1:26:21Ashley Hesseltine?

  Yes, congrats.

• 1:26:21Rayna Greenberg?

  You guys can get it now.

• 1:26:23Ashley Hesseltine?

  It's so funny. I remember how I saw you. Do you remember? I was home during COVID. I was at my parents' house in Delaware.

• 1:26:29Rayna Greenberg?

  You were on TV somewhere.

• 1:26:30Ashley Hesseltine?

  And you were on the TV. My mom was like, maybe you should watch this. This seems relevant to what you do. And we had been wanting to do an episode of Boundaries. That's how it happened.

• 1:26:36Rayna Greenberg?

  I forgot that.

• 1:26:37Ashley Hesseltine?

  It was like Today Show or Good Morning America or whatever.

• 1:26:41Rayna Greenberg?

  Oh, wow.

• 1:26:41Ashley Hesseltine?

  Kelly or somebody. I don't know.

• 1:26:42Rayna Greenberg?

  Did you put out a book that year in 2020?

• 1:26:44Speaker 00

  2021, but 2020, I could have been on TV talking about it, I guess.

• 1:26:48Ashley Hesseltine?

  Yeah. Anyway, I just had a flashback of just that's how I saw you for the first time. She'd be good. Okay, guys, and you know where to find us. GirlsGottaEat.com, GirlsGottaEatPodcast on Instagram and TikTok. I'm Ash Hess. Raina is Rayna Greenberg. RainaGreenberg.com for her tour tickets. And you can subscribe on YouTube. Share this episode with a friend and we will see you Thursday.

• 1:27:08Rayna Greenberg?

  Have a good week, guys.

• 1:27:09Ashley Hesseltine?

  Bye.