The Keys To A Healthy Relationship & How To Deal With Conflict w/Erwin McManus EP 1166

Today’s guest is Erwin McManus. He’s a best-selling author, entrepreneur, fashion designer, filmmaker and founder of Mosaic, a church movement based in the heart of Hollywood with a community that spans the globe. He has committed his life to the study of genius and the pursuit of God, never knowing that the two worlds would one day collide. And he’s written a new book called The Genius of Jesus: The Man Who Changed Everything. In this episode we discuss Erwin’s philosophy on relationships and how to find the right partner, how to support your partner without controlling them, how to deal with conflict in a relationship & the keys to a healthy relationship. Sign up for the Greatness Challenge: https://www.lewishowes.com/challengeGet Erwin's new book: https://thegeniusof.com/For more go to: https://www.lewishowes.com/1166For part one go to: https://www.lewishowes.com/1165Erwin's previous episode: https://www.lewishowes.com/763The Wim Hof Experience: Mindset Training, Power Breathing, and Brotherhood: https://link.chtbl.com/910-podA Scientific Guide to Living Longer, Feeling Happier & Eating Healthier with Dr. Rhonda Patrick: https://link.chtbl.com/967-podThe Science of Sleep for Ultimate Success with Shawn Stevenson: https://link.chtbl.com/896-pod Get more from Lewis! Get my New York Times Bestselling book, Make Money Easy! Get The Greatness Mindset audiobook on SpotifyText Lewis AIYouTubeInstagramWebsiteTiktokFacebookX

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Lewis Howes?

  This is episode number 1,166 with Erwin McManus, Part Two. Welcome to the School of Greatness. My name is Lewis Howes, a former pro athlete turned lifestyle entrepreneur. And each week, we bring you an inspiring person or message to help you discover how to unlock your inner greatness. Thanks for spending some time with me today. Now let the class begin.

• 0:30Lewis Howes?

  Today's guest is Erwin McManus. He's back for Part Two. He's a bestselling author, entrepreneur, fashion designer, filmmaker, and founder of Mosaic, which is a church movement based in the heart of Hollywood with a community that spans the globe. And he has committed his life to the study of genius and the pursuit of God, never knowing that the two worlds would one day collide. And he's got a new book called The Genius of Jesus, The Man Who Changed Everything. And this is the second part of our conversation that I had with Erwin, and I wanted to dive into his philosophy about the spiritual side of relationships. And we dug in deep. We talked about Erwin's philosophy around love and how to find the right partner, how to support your partner without controlling them, how to deal with conflict in a relationship,

• 1:15Lewis Howes?

  and the keys to a healthy relationship. And he shares some things that maybe you wouldn't think a pastor might share about sex, love, and relationships, along with spirituality. So I hope you enjoy this. And if you do enjoy this, make sure to share this with a friend, post it over on social media. You can always tag me, Lewis Howes, and Erwin McManus as well. And I want to give a shout out to the fan of the week by ZD, who said, "I cannot say enough great things about the School of Greatness. I started listening because of a couple TikTok clips that I saw, and now I am obsessed. And it's a part of my morning ritual, and I get up and listen to this podcast. It's now my number one because it's so diverse. Other podcasts can get kind of redundant after a while, but this one has a variety of different topics and great guests."

• 1:59Lewis Howes?

  So ZD, so glad that you follow us over on TikTok as well, and that you're getting a lot of value from the School of Greatness on a daily basis. And again, guys, if this is your first time here, please subscribe right now on Apple Podcasts and Spotify, and stay up to date, because every week we have incredible guests and topics just like this one. Okay, in just a moment, the one and only Erwin McManus.

• 2:24Lewis Howes?

  We were talking about this off camera, about you've been married 38 years, right? 38 years. So I feel like you've got a lot of wisdom from your years of experience being married. And you've also supported people throughout relationships, you know, pre-marriage stuff, being married through divorces, getting remarried again. I'm sure you've seen it all for the last, you know, 38, 40 years.

• 2:49Lewis Howes?

  And it seems to me, again, maybe just because I live in LA, I see the extremes of it. And maybe if I was hanging out back in Ohio more, I would see more like healthy relationships. But it seems to me like, in general, a lot of people have gone through breakups, adversity, a loss of faith or hope in their relationships in the last year and a half, two years. And with the availability of seeing something shinier, brighter, better looking, more attractive, or seeming better at a swipe constantly, whether it be on social media or dating apps, and seeing a flawed person in front of you every day that maybe you're not connected with as much or not putting the work in as much.

• 3:33Lewis Howes?

  It just seems like there's a lot of struggle and people are wanting to find love and intimacy more than ever, but they're not willing to do what it takes to sustain it and to build it and co-create it with someone in a conscious, healthy way.

• 3:48Lewis Howes?

  How do you think we can get out of that space and tap back into the genius of love? And tap into the genius of intimacy? And how can we really co-create this? So I'm just trying to set this up because I want to talk about this for a little bit. But what's your philosophy around relationships in general? And because you were mentioning before that really, I think 80% of it is finding the right match.

• 4:16Erwin McManus?

  Yeah.

• 4:16Lewis Howes?

  And making sure that you can find the right match first. So how do we know we've found the right match? Like, what are some questions we can ask ourselves or our potential partner to see? Are they the right potential match for me?

• 4:28Erwin McManus?

  Sure. Here's a couple of things that maybe will be different than what you'll read everywhere.

• 4:33Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 4:33Erwin McManus?

  One thing is, don't look for someone who makes you happy. Look for someone that you naturally make happy. Because if the other person isn't happy...

• 4:45Erwin McManus?

  As an outcome of your presence in their life, you're never gonna make them happy.

• 4:50Lewis Howes?

  Right. So your authenticity makes them happy?

• 4:52Erwin McManus?

  Yeah.

• 4:53Lewis Howes?

  You being more of you.

• 4:54Erwin McManus?

  Makes them happy.

• 4:55Lewis Howes?

  Brings them more joy.

• 4:56Erwin McManus?

  Yeah, because.

• 4:57Lewis Howes?

  So it's not a struggle?

• 4:58Erwin McManus?

  Yeah, when you're gonna be married for a long, long time, and you're going, "I just can't make you happy." You're at a dead end. Because you realize, and because you actually aren't in control of someone else's happiness. Like, they're in charge of their own happiness. So I'm not saying that you're responsible for the happiness. What I'm saying is, that person naturally moves toward happiness because of your presence. The natural you adds to their happiness.

• 5:23Lewis Howes?

  Yes.

• 5:23Erwin McManus?

  Does that make sense?

• 5:24Lewis Howes?

  That makes a lot of sense.

• 5:25Erwin McManus?

  And.

• 5:25Lewis Howes?

  Why do we try to force it, try to be something we're not, to make someone happy?

• 5:29Erwin McManus?

  Right, because if you're having to work really hard to make them happy, it's not gonna last.

• 5:34Lewis Howes?

  No.

• 5:34Erwin McManus?

  It's not, because you're gonna get exhausted.

• 5:36Lewis Howes?

  Exhausted.

• 5:36Erwin McManus?

  And you can't make an unhappy person happy. And so fortunately, in 38 years, I realized, when I'm my best self, my wife actually is happy. And she likes me, she enjoys me, and we laugh and have a good time together. And that's, so some of, and it's not just that she makes me happy, and she does. But if you base it on that, you're gonna be using people. And so when you're going, "Oh, you know, I'm looking for someone who makes me happy", you're gonna be a user. And that's dangerous, because that person can't sustain your happiness either. So the first thing I would say is, just find someone who, just, you're, the real you makes them happy.

• 6:18Lewis Howes?

  Yes.

• 6:19Erwin McManus?

  And then, and I think relationships are hard work, but I wanna use the word, that part of it is effortless.

• 6:28Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 6:29Erwin McManus?

  Does that make sense? And the second thing I would say, and this is really important in the context even of LA, is you need to find someone who wants you to be the best version of yourself.

• 6:47Erwin McManus?

  You don't want someone who wants you to be a lesser version of yourself. And this is back to your question of can you really be a genius in your own hometown?

• 6:57Lewis Howes?

  Yes.

• 6:58Erwin McManus?

  And the answer is usually no.

• 7:00Lewis Howes?

  Why?

• 7:01Erwin McManus?

  Because people don't want your life to be an indictment on their life.

• 7:07Erwin McManus?

  So when everyone grows up with the same starting

• 7:10Lewis Howes?

  Right.

• 7:11Erwin McManus?

  And then you begin to emerge, you become a judgment on them, even if you don't mean to.

• 7:16Lewis Howes?

  Why? Because they're not living up to their potential?

• 7:18Erwin McManus?

  That's right. Because anyone who is living up to their potential can celebrate you living up to your potential. Greatness can applaud greatness. Genius can applaud genius. And intention applauds intention. But when you elevate above everyone else in your peer group and they've chosen a life of mediocrity, they will feel that you've betrayed them.

• 7:45Lewis Howes?

  Gosh, I felt there's so many different stages in my life. I felt like I had friends and then I didn't have them as friends.

• 7:52Erwin McManus?

  Yeah, that's right.

• 7:54Lewis Howes?

  And then I moved somewhere new and developed friends and then didn't have them as friends. Not because I wasn't trying to be their friend, but because I kept seeking and pursuing.

• 8:04Erwin McManus?

  You were going to be more.

• 8:05Lewis Howes?

  Yes, I was like, okay, I was asking the questions. I was diving into more learning. I was developing myself.

• 8:10Erwin McManus?

  The most stark reminder that in my life was my wife and I had this couple that were friends. And he was a Harvard grad, she was a Duke grad, so they were like brilliant. And he played football, I think it was, and you know, and one day we just didn't see him anymore. And then a year later, they were at our house and we sat down with them. We thought, we were good enough friends to have an honest conversation. So I said, hey, it seems like you guys just withdrew. And what did we do to like end the friendship? And they said, being around you puts too much pressure on us to be more.

• 8:49Erwin McManus?

  And I said, did I say something? Or was it? No, it wasn't anything you said. It's just you're the way you choose to live your life. Oh. Makes us feel that we are obligated to be more. And I remember saying to them, I can live with that. Mm hmm. And, you know, because for years my wife said, you know, we don't have friends that have stayed with us all the years along the way. And, and it's because you have to decide as you go along the way. Are you going to allow your friendships to determine your ceiling? Or will you invite people to go with you? So I tried, I mean, I cannot tell you how many friends I've gone to and I said, hey, I'm starting this business, just come. I'm doing this, just come.

• 9:34Erwin McManus?

  And I created jobs for them. Opportunities, yeah. And they've all said, no. And, and I realized, oh, it's, it's hard for me because I am a very driven person. And, and, and I realized, oh, they're just, they're happy with their life as it is. And so then I have to celebrate that. Yes. But I also realize that we're just moving into different dimensions of living. Mm hmm. And so I have, I have great friends now. All my friends right now, the really close ones, they're way more successful than me. They're inspiring you to grow, yeah, yeah. Yeah, and I realize, oh, not a single one of them's intimidated by me. If anything, they're looking at me going, he's such an underachiever.

• 10:17Erwin McManus?

  And, and it does elevate me. When I'm in a room with them and I go, wow, they have courage. They have incredible inventiveness. They, they took some great risks. It really challenges me. And I want to, and, and actually, I want to be in that room. See, I don't walk away from that room. I go, I want to be around people where I am the least successful, least impactful person in the room. And I want to be pulled up by that environment. And, and you should always pull people up, but you can't force them up. You can't force them. And so that's a part of that. And back to the dating thing. Yes.

• 10:54Erwin McManus?

  I've seen a lot of relationships where women hit a ceiling because the man does not want them to be their best version of themselves.

• 11:02Lewis Howes?

  The man doesn't want the woman to be that, wow.

• 11:04Erwin McManus?

  And because they want that woman to be there for his benefit. But I've also seen the reverse. I've seen men hit a ceiling because the woman they chose didn't want the best version of them.

• 11:15Lewis Howes?

  Pulls them back or, yeah.

• 11:17Erwin McManus?

  And I gotta say this, like, my wife has always pushed me to be my best version of myself. In fact, one time this guy, she asked him why he wasn't more ambitious or, you know, more courageous. And, uh, because he kept talking like he would. And so she just said, you know, what's holding you back? I said, well, I'm married and I have kids. And I just, I can't take those kind of risks because, you know, I have to take care of my wife and kids. In front of him, my wife turned and looked at me, she goes, if you ever use me or the kids as an excuse for living a lesser life, I will leave your home.

• 11:52Lewis Howes?

  Wow, she said this to you?

• 11:54Erwin McManus?

  Yes, in front of that guy. And, uh, and she meant it.

• 11:58Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 11:58Erwin McManus?

  You know, and she's always basically, you know, said, look, I, I'm married to the best version of yourself. And you just keep pushing yourself to that, you know, and, um, and that's exciting for me.

• 12:11Lewis Howes?

  Yes.

• 12:12Erwin McManus?

  You know, and we've had times, I mean, I remember 10 years ago when I started a fashion company and a film company and, and she didn't really understand what I was doing. You know, and we had a conversation in the coffee shop and a year later I had a company. It was a quickly multimillion dollar company. And she came and said, hey, uh, are we gonna talk? I said, about what? She goes, it seemed like you've started this other life now, you're like this artist, the designer guy. And, you know, before you were just a pastor and you're a writer and shouldn't we talk about this shift in your life? And, and I said, honey, we did talk about that last year. Remember I said I was gonna be an artist for the next 20 years of my life? And, and she goes, that conversation doesn't count because I didn't think you could succeed.

• 12:52Erwin McManus?

  But you know, once we sat down and this time when I came back and started another fashion company and I I took all of our savings and used everything to start this new company in the middle of the pandemic, I said, honey, are you okay with me doing this? And she looked at me, she goes, I am because this is what you were born to do.

• 13:13Lewis Howes?

  And That's powerful.

• 13:14Erwin McManus?

  She just, I I mean, being married to someone like that is such a gift. And and I mean, I can tell you years ago, I lost like five to six million dollars in one day. And I lost a company due to a decision my business partner made that I could not stop.

• 13:33Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 13:34Erwin McManus?

  And I ended up taking a million dollars with loans to finish all the projects they left undone. I had to fly home and tell my wife I lost everything. I sat down on Larchmont and I said, honey, I need to tell you I lost everything.

• 13:48Lewis Howes?

  Wow.

• 13:49Erwin McManus?

  And my wife looked at me and said, without a second hesitation, I thought I was your everything.

• 13:55Lewis Howes?

  Oh, phew, that gave me chills.

• 13:57Erwin McManus?

  Yeah. And me too. And I thought, man, I'm not in a Jane Austen novel. What is happening here? And I didn't have as romantic a response. My response was, well, I lost my other everything. The one that faced the bill.

• 14:12Lewis Howes?

  Exactly.

• 14:12Erwin McManus?

  And she looked at me, goes, we've been poor before.

• 14:16Erwin McManus?

  And that didn't stop us.

• 14:17Lewis Howes?

  Wow.

• 14:18Erwin McManus?

  And she was just basically just get up off the ground and do what you do.

• 14:23Lewis Howes?

  Go create, go make something happen, yeah.

• 14:25Erwin McManus?

  And you want someone like that. You want someone who enjoys you when you're enjoying life. And you want someone who always calls you to the best version of yourself and wants you to be that person.

• 14:37Lewis Howes?

  What if you've already married, you've already been married and you haven't asked those questions yet and you're realizing, oh, this person doesn't want me to to go be the best version. They want me to be the version they want me to be that makes them safe and comfortable. And you're already in that marriage, maybe you have kids, maybe you don't. How do you? Enroll or inspire your partner to be supportive of the greater version of you.

• 15:02Erwin McManus?

  What I would say is you probably have an unspoken codependency of mediocrity.

• 15:06Lewis Howes?

  Yes.

• 15:08Erwin McManus?

  Both of you accepted a lesser version of each other. So if you wake up one day going, I want to be more, and I'm gonna say this especially, I'm gonna say this as a man. Okay, I don't want to like, you know, sound chauvinistic or anything like that, you know? But I'm gonna say this as a guy. If you're a man and you wake up one day and you go, I want to be a better, higher version of myself. Your first job is to help your wife be a higher version of herself.

• 15:35Lewis Howes?

  How can a man do that?

• 15:36Erwin McManus?

  By, one, having meaningful conversations and listening to your wife's dreams. Listening to the dreams that she put on the back burner because she married you.

• 15:45Lewis Howes?

  Ooh.

• 15:45Erwin McManus?

  Listening to the dreams that she thinks are no longer possible because she married you and had your kids.

• 15:50Lewis Howes?

  Wow.

• 15:50Erwin McManus?

  Listening to the dreams that are still haunting her that she wishes she could live. Because, see, if you want to be free to move to a different level of you, your first commitment should be to help her become free to be the best version of herself.

• 16:03Lewis Howes?

  That's big.

• 16:04Erwin McManus?

  Okay, so that's what I would say to the guys.

• 16:06Lewis Howes?

  Okay.

• 16:07Erwin McManus?

  Yeah, you know, because it's so much easier, it, it sounds so right to go, my wife's holding me back. But if you've been married for 10 years and you've both been at that same level, it's an unspoken contract of mediocrity.

• 16:21Lewis Howes?

  It's both of you are involved, yeah.

• 16:23Erwin McManus?

  And, and so now you have this epiphany, you listen to Lewis Howes and he's inspired you to the school of greatness. Now you want to be great. Well, you know what you should do? You should let your wife listen to the podcast and go, hey, this talk really inspired me. You know, and I would tell people, leaders make a mistake because they go through a long process of change. And then when they change, they tell everyone they've changed now.

• 16:46Lewis Howes?

  And it took them years and then want everyone else to do it with them.

• 16:48Erwin McManus?

  I'm going, yeah, if you're the leader and it took you this long to get to that place, how long do you expect the people who've followed you?

• 16:54Lewis Howes?

  Probably twice as long.

• 16:55Erwin McManus?

  Most likely. So if you've been married for five years, 10 years, 15 years, and you've been comfortable with mediocrity or the status quo, and then now you're like, I need more, I want to be more. Look, it took a process for you to be reawakened. So now you need to create an environment where your spouse can be reawakened. And find a way to take this journey together.

• 17:16Lewis Howes?

  Yeah, that's beautiful.

• 17:18Erwin McManus?

  Yeah.

• 17:19Lewis Howes?

  How do you know when you're you've been dating someone for a while? What are some questions you should ask that could get real clarity? If that is a potential partner that will support you in the crazy changes and growth you'll have over the next, you know, 10, 20, 50 years of potentially being together? What are some things you should ask?

• 17:37Erwin McManus?

  I think you usually know right away if they're not the right person.

• 17:40Lewis Howes?

  Ooh.

• 17:41Erwin McManus?

  You just lie to yourself because you don't want to be alone.

• 17:44Lewis Howes?

  Wow, okay. Yeah, that's good.

• 17:47Erwin McManus?

  And so I would say.

• 17:48Lewis Howes?

  Do we know intuitively? Is it a feeling?

• 17:50Erwin McManus?

  Yeah, it's a gut feeling. It's a, um, it's an intuition. It's also a level of joy.

• 17:57Lewis Howes?

  Mm hmm.

• 17:58Erwin McManus?

  You know? And are they filling the loneliness void? Or are they accentuating the fully alive aspect of your life? Are you more fully alive with that person?

• 18:10Lewis Howes?

  What if they're doing both for someone?

• 18:12Erwin McManus?

  Well, that's okay if you're feeling both.

• 18:13Lewis Howes?

  As long as they're.

• 18:14Erwin McManus?

  Yeah.

• 18:14Lewis Howes?

  Bringing the joy.

• 18:15Erwin McManus?

  Yeah.

• 18:15Lewis Howes?

  And they're making you feel full of life.

• 18:17Erwin McManus?

  Fully alive. Oh, so here, so you know right away if they're not the person. You just have to be honest with yourself. But you may not know right away if they are the person.

• 18:24Lewis Howes?

  Yes. So how do you know when they are?

• 18:26Erwin McManus?

  Um, when you no longer need to change them.

• 18:30Lewis Howes?

  Wow, that's when you know that they are the right person.

• 18:32Erwin McManus?

  Yeah, because if you're trying to change them, they're not the right person.

• 18:36Lewis Howes?

  Ooh.

• 18:40Erwin McManus?

  You know?

• 18:40Lewis Howes?

  So it's when you fully accept them.

• 18:41Erwin McManus?

  Yeah, I love all this about it. I've just got to change this one thing, just this one thing. And so then you have to ask yourself the question. If that one thing never changes, because it won't.

• 18:52Lewis Howes?

  It won't change.

• 18:52Erwin McManus?

  It won't.

• 18:53Lewis Howes?

  That even if you have potential to change it, it's not going to change.

• 18:56Erwin McManus?

  Because you're not their life coach.

• 18:57Lewis Howes?

  Right.

• 18:58Erwin McManus?

  You're their partner.

• 18:58Lewis Howes?

  Don't coach them.

• 18:59Erwin McManus?

  Right.

• 19:00Lewis Howes?

  Don't try to fix them.

• 19:01Erwin McManus?

  That's right. So the moment you become their coach, you can't be their partner.

• 19:03Lewis Howes?

  Ooh. So how do we empower and uplift our partners to want them to, to, to accomplish their dreams and become more of who they are without coaching them?

• 19:17Erwin McManus?

  By paying attention to the areas of life they want to change and the areas of life they do not want to change. Let's say, just a small thing. Let's say, it drives you crazy that she's always late. Right, you know? And you say, can't you be on time? And you realize, she doesn't really want to be on time. So you have to decide, can I love this person even though they're always gonna be late? Which is different than a person that says, "I really want to be punctual. I really want to be on time. I just have this terrible pattern in my life of being late all the time, and I really need help to be on time." Those are two different scenarios. You know? And then, in the second scenario, if you become the one to help them be on time, they're gonna hate you. Because now you're the life coach. You have to say, hey, I totally support you in that.

• 20:03Erwin McManus?

  You know, you, you know, maybe I can point you to some things that'll help you. I'm not gonna help you change this. I'm gonna cheer you on as you change. Because I don't want you to feel like you're changing for me. You have to change for yourself.

• 20:14Lewis Howes?

  That's right.

• 20:15Erwin McManus?

  Does that make sense?

• 20:16Lewis Howes?

  So cheering people on, not coaching them?

• 20:18Erwin McManus?

  Yeah. Yeah, and, you know, and you have to, you have to be able to say this sincerely. Even if you never change, I'm gonna love you completely.

• 20:26Lewis Howes?

  Some people don't do that, though. They're with someone, and they don't like things, and they keep wanting them to change the thing they don't like.

• 20:33Erwin McManus?

  Yes.

• 20:34Lewis Howes?

  And they expect them to change, but they're not gonna change.

• 20:36Erwin McManus?

  Yeah, in LA, you know what's funny? It's like, a lot of guys, they fall in love with models and actresses, but they don't wanna marry a model or an actress.

• 20:42Lewis Howes?

  Right.

• 20:44Erwin McManus?

  So, they want to marry the model, they just want you to quit modeling and want you married.

• 20:49Lewis Howes?

  Right.

• 20:49Erwin McManus?

  They wanna marry you as an actress, or, or an actor, but they want you, because they don't want you to act, because then you're like having that scene.

• 20:56Lewis Howes?

  Right.

• 20:56Erwin McManus?

  You know?

• 20:56Lewis Howes?

  That makes them feel uncomfortable.

• 20:57Erwin McManus?

  Yeah, yeah, and so I'm going, no, no. See, if you don't want to marry an actress, don't date an actress.

• 21:04Lewis Howes?

  Right.

• 21:05Erwin McManus?

  Right? Just like, you know, when guys are surgeons or doctors. Like, if, if you don't want to marry someone with doctor's hours and surgeon's schedules, don't marry a doctor or a surgeon. Don't, don't think, oh, if I marry him, then his priorities will change.

• 21:19Lewis Howes?

  No.

• 21:20Erwin McManus?

  They, they won't, because he's structured to be a surgeon. And the only marriage that's gonna work is someone who actually is structured to be married to that surgical pattern in their life. And so you look at those extremes. Like I, you know, when I was dating Kim, I was already traveling. I said, hey, I'm gonna be traveling all the time. I'm gonna be traveling the world. And my wife's like, that's okay, so am I. Right, right. We're just traveling in different directions. My wife is a musical artist. She's married to a musical artist. And Jake is in the band Laney. And they toured with John Mayer, Ellie Goulding, and they're about to do the Tributor. And they travel all over the world. Right, right.

• 22:04Erwin McManus?

  And, you know, Mariah, when she married Jake, understood. He's one-third of Laney, he's gonna be traveling. She's also musician. Mariah's your daughter. My daughter's my daughter. And she's in a band and she travels the world, and they both understood that. Now they have a baby, and they're working out. Neither one of them is looking to the other person saying, now you need to change your man. Stop doing your thing. Yeah. They both are like, we both have this thing that's important to us. It's a part of who we are, and we're gonna learn how to be husband and wife and have a little girl in that dynamic scenario. And I think that, to me, is the ideal. You're not trying to change the other person. You knew who they were. You were willing to embrace that for a lifetime. And you also understand it's complicated. Yes. And you do your best to work it through.

• 22:48Erwin McManus?

  And, but my kids have learned that you can live in a really dynamic relationship and have a great marriage. Absolutely. And you can. But you can't change the person. I mean, there's things, you know, about me that I know Kim wants to change, and they just don't change. Right. I mean, you know, it's kinda late for me to change those things. It's accepting the person, yeah. There's things about Kim that I wanted her to change, she never changed. And, but I didn't expect them to change. I kinda hoped some of them would change, right? You know? Did anything change? Oh, yeah. We both changed a lot in all the areas where we fundamentally wanted to change.

• 23:22Lewis Howes?

  Not the other person wanting you to change, because that doesn't work, does it?

• 23:25Erwin McManus?

  You can't sustain changes someone else wants for you. You can only sustain a change that you want for yourself. And that's why, when you're marrying someone, you don't marry a perfect person. But you pay attention to who they're becoming.

• 23:38Lewis Howes?

  Well, would you see, there are the commandments in the Bible, but what would you say are the spiritual principles or commandments for a relationship? Maybe three to five that you would say, "These are pretty time and true tested from your relationship, or the ones that you've seen who have been healthy, and gone through ups and downs, and sustained a happy type of relationship."

• 23:57Erwin McManus?

  That's funny, you picked the Bible as your framework. Yeah, there were ten commandments that were given in the Old Testament, and Jesus narrowed it down to love God and love people. And he said, "Look, if you love God and love people, you're gonna take care of all the commandments."

• 24:12Erwin McManus?

  You know, and I would say that in a relationship, the first thing is you have to take personal responsibility for your own happiness.

• 24:20Lewis Howes?

  That's so true.

• 24:22Erwin McManus?

  And so, don't blame it on your wife, don't blame your kids, don't blame your marriage, don't blame your job. You are personally responsible for your own happiness. Because it's miserable being married to someone who's unhappy.

• 24:32Lewis Howes?

  It's really, it's draining, right?

• 24:34Erwin McManus?

  Yeah, it's exhausting, you know, to be in a relationship of any kind with someone who's perpetually unhappy.

• 24:40Lewis Howes?

  Because you're always trying to support them and being happy, as opposed to pursuing your unique genius, and your dreams, and your creativity, and...

• 24:47Erwin McManus?

  So you're personally responsible for your happiness.

• 24:49Lewis Howes?

  Yes.

• 24:50Erwin McManus?

  And then, secondly,

• 24:55Erwin McManus?

  when you're in a relationship, you should care and align your life for your partner's personal happiness. You're not responsible for their happiness, but you should be the greatest ingredient that allows them to move in that direction. Does that make sense?

• 25:15Lewis Howes?

  That makes a lot of sense.

• 25:16Erwin McManus?

  You know, and, you know, and so like, your partner shouldn't feel that they need to go against you to live out the intention that gives them the greatest sense of joy.

• 25:28Lewis Howes?

  Oh, yeah. And it seems like some people try to hide the things they love sometimes, or try to sneak away to do something they love because the other person doesn't like it.

• 25:37Erwin McManus?

  Yeah.

• 25:37Lewis Howes?

  And that's tough, right?

• 25:38Erwin McManus?

  Yeah. And like when I first started writing books, I was a madman. I mean, you know, I get, I got so hard into my head and my family says I was not an enjoyable human being. And, and human interaction irritated me when I was writing. Get away from me. I wrecked the car when I was driving. Like I, I'm so in my head. I was in a carpool lane by myself because I was having a conversation with three other people while I was writing my book. Cause I, I, I worked through, I write the entire book in my head. Yes. And, and so like one of my books I wrote in 10 hours because I wrote the whole thing in my imagination and I just punched it out so fast and, but I'm completely oblivious

• 26:23Erwin McManus?

  all rolled around me and maybe mean. And, and so my family was like, Dad, you know, could you, when you write, could you just sort of be alone, you know, because we're a little nervous for you. Don't drive, we'll send you food. Get your driver. And just talk to us minimally during the process. And I, and I love that space and my wife would try to like help me by bringing me food and I would go, why are you interrupting me? Why are you in the room? But I cooked this for you and I go, did I ask you to? And, and over time I had to learn how to, you know, be more, more gracious and kind each time I wrote a book. But my family also learned how to give me that space to create that's necessary for

• 27:08Erwin McManus?

  me to go through that process. And I actually think like the best relationships, they can talk to you. They were so honest with me and go, hey, I don't know if you realize this, but you're short, you know, you're short tempered and you're too quick, you know, to get irritated and, and completely unaware of it. I just knew they irritated me. I could only see it from my inside experience. Sure. And then I realized, oh, I see what's going on. So I made adjustments and they made adjustments. You know, they want me to succeed in the writing. They want me to write the best book I can. At the same time, you know, I want to create a healthy, happy environment all around me. And, and sometimes they feel like they're mutually exclusive, right?

• 27:50Erwin McManus?

  You being you and creating what you need and everyone else being happy, they can almost be at war with each other. And, and yet you realize, no, you know, every human being. Has like a dark side to their life. You know, and a part of loving someone is just realizing, like I would always grow a beard when I wrote. It was like, it was my way of warning everyone. Right, right. Stay away. And they would just, oh, he's about to write a book. You know, and I think I had, I found ways to externally communicate. I love you, but right now I'm going into my hole. You know, and, and I watched this with Kim when she's like teaching a master's course or she's building something in Asia. I just know I'm not going to see my wife.

• 28:33Erwin McManus?

  Like, she's on phone calls at 10 o'clock at night because it's the right time in Africa for two hours. And, and she's focused on it, she's pretending she's talking to you, but she's in her brain working out this project. I could get so irritated. And, and there have been times I go, you know, hey, is that all you're gonna do, right? You know, because I'm not celebrating that. But I realized for her to achieve this, I have to accept the fact that these, these things are going to change in our relationship during this time. And I think a huge part of relationships is adaptability and pliability. And I always say, look, the more mature person makes the most changes. But somebody has to make changes. Someone has to choose adaptability.

• 29:16Erwin McManus?

  And if you have two rigid people in a marriage, it won't work. You, you always have to have one person who's just more like water. And if both are flexible, is that good too? If both are flexible, it, it isn't as tumultuous. But there may be a lack of structure, you know, that helps the relationship actually grow. It is nice to have one person who says, hey, let's make sure we have dinner. Yeah, of course. You know, because if, if both are super flexible, there may not be enough intention to make sure that the relationship is moving forward. So I, I just think it's finding the right, you know, I don't call it a balance, it's the right tension. Yes. You know, because I, I don't really believe in balance in life because I'm skewed.

• 30:01Erwin McManus?

  Like I'm an extremist. I'm not a balanced person. And I don't think you're a balanced person either, you know? And my marriage isn't balanced. My marriage is a pendulum of my passions pulling us, her passions pulling us, me adapting to her passions, Kim adapting to my passions and us constantly moving forward in this beautiful rhythm of tensions. Really?

• 30:26Lewis Howes?

  Any other principles you would add? The spiritual principles?

• 30:29Erwin McManus?

  Have fun.

• 30:29Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 30:30Erwin McManus?

  Enjoy each other, laugh, play. That's like principle number one for me. And you just can't be mad at each other when you're laughing together. You can't hold bitterness when you're laughing together. You can't live in the past when you're laughing together. When you're laughing together, you're completely in that, in this moment. You're completely present. So have fun, laugh together, enjoy life.

• 30:55Erwin McManus?

  And that, that's number one. Two, celebrate each other's successes. And you, you just need to be a lifelong cheerleader for the other person. Don't assume they know you think they're awesome.

• 31:11Erwin McManus?

  You know? And three, have as much sex as you can.

• 31:20Erwin McManus?

  You know? Cause you know, sex is supposed to be the most intimate act between two human beings.

• 31:27Lewis Howes?

  Uh huh.

• 31:27Erwin McManus?

  It's not supposed to be a pastime for entertainment. You know, what we've turned it into is so demeaning to the beauty of physical, sexual intimacy. And it's really important in, in a marriage and it's really important in a relationship that, that you know, in the deepening of that relationship to, I've been married 38 years and you know, sex is still really important. It's an important part of, of intimacy. It's an important part of blocking everything else out in the world and making everything else irrelevant and, and, and it's just about us.

• 32:04Lewis Howes?

  Being present in the moment.

• 32:05Erwin McManus?

  Being present in that moment.

• 32:06Lewis Howes?

  Wow.

• 32:06Erwin McManus?

  You know, and, and just so annoying that they're fully loved and completely loved. I think it's really important.

• 32:13Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 32:13Erwin McManus?

  And, and then, you know, maybe feel surprised to hear that from a pastor, whatever, you know, but that's just real life, you know? I mean, there's a whole book called The Song of Solomon. That's written about sexual relationships between a man and a woman. And it's funny, the Lord just tried to turn it into a metaphor about God and the church. It's not, it's really about humans. And, uh, cause Solomon was a romantic, you know? And I do think that romance is important. Things like surprise and, um, you know, doing unexpected acts of kindness for each other. And, um,

• 32:48Erwin McManus?

  You know, when you date, there's a, there's a, a process of winning that person's affection. That process never ends.

• 32:57Lewis Howes?

  Mm-hmm.

• 32:58Erwin McManus?

  Like, if you, if you, if you don't date and romance your spouse, you will end up losing that love.

• 33:05Lewis Howes?

  Hmm.

• 33:07Erwin McManus?

  Yeah, because it's just, it's what nurtures it, it's what waters it, it's what allows it to flourish.

• 33:12Lewis Howes?

  Yeah, I think a friend of mine once said, if you do in the beginning, what did he say? He said, if you do in the beginning of dating in a relationship, what, what you're not doing at the end, it wouldn't be the end. Something like that. If you continue doing what you were doing in the beginning, at the end, it wouldn't be the end, because you kept doing it.

• 33:37Erwin McManus?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 33:38Lewis Howes?

  You know what I mean?

• 33:39Erwin McManus?

  That's right.

• 33:39Lewis Howes?

  But you stopped doing the thing that created a connection.

• 33:42Erwin McManus?

  Let me, let me just say something about, since I went there, talk about sex and intimacy.

• 33:46Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 33:47Erwin McManus?

  A part of the reason a lot of relationships don't have sustainability is that sex becomes a way of circumventing intimacy.

• 33:55Lewis Howes?

  What do you mean?

• 33:56Erwin McManus?

  Sex creates an illusion of intimacy without the reality of intimacy. And what, if I just, just be super basic, you will, if you're gonna be married forty years, you're gonna talk a lot more when you have sex.

• 34:11Lewis Howes?

  Uh-huh.

• 34:12Erwin McManus?

  You know, no matter how much you have sex, you're gonna talk a lot more.

• 34:15Lewis Howes?

  You don't have sex so much.

• 34:15Erwin McManus?

  Yeah, and if you don't have a person you want to talk to, you will not have a person you want to have sex with. And, and so what ends up happening is a lot of people move into sexual intimacy before they actually move into actual intimacy.

• 34:31Lewis Howes?

  Oh, it's so powerful.

• 34:32Erwin McManus?

  And, and-

• 34:33Lewis Howes?

  I made this mistake in every previous relationship.

• 34:37Erwin McManus?

  You know, it's, it's both a mistake guys and girls make.

• 34:40Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 34:40Erwin McManus?

  You know, guys make it because they don't want, um, they don't know if they can actually move toward real intimacy. Because we don't know how to be a transparent and authentic.

• 34:50Lewis Howes?

  Hmm, vulnerable and-

• 34:52Erwin McManus?

  Yeah, vulnerable, yeah, and women often want it because it makes them feel like they're loved and they are embraced by that person.

• 35:02Erwin McManus?

  And so you're attributing a lot of intention to it. Right. Those chemicals can confuse you. They can, and the chemicals do confuse you. I was speaking at this event one time and I talked about sex and intimacy. And this couple came up, they were, you know, they were not married, they were, you know, living together and and he was very upset because she was listening. And, and she said, they came up and she said, I don't think he really likes me. I think he just wants me. Desires me sexually. Yeah, you know, sexually and, and, and he goes, no, it's not true. And I told her, you know, let's go talk to him. And I said, okay, here's a test. When you go home tonight, don't have sex, just talk.

• 35:47Erwin McManus?

  And if he can't talk to you throughout the whole night, enjoying dinner and, you know, and talking and engaging in conversation without having sex, you basically know he thinks you're boring. And because what happens a lot of times is that when a guy just wants to go right to having sex, he actually thinks you're boring. There is nothing else in the relationship that can hold his attention. And I know I'm going a little bit in here, but I'm just saying, I think that a a huge part of masculine intimacy is learning how to be vulnerable through conversation and that human connection. And not circumventing the process of actually knowing each other. And

• 36:32Erwin McManus?

  Getting to know each other first through conversation, not sexually. Do you like each other? Yeah. Not just want each other. Uh huh, that's huge. You know, and, and that's going to be kind of the backdrop of life because

• 36:48Erwin McManus?

  loving someone is really important. And I'm going to say it in an odd way, liking them is really important too. Because if you're gonna be with them for a long time, you gotta like them. Yeah, just even as a parent, think about this. A lot of parents love their kids, but they don't like their kids.

• 37:03Erwin McManus?

  You know, you know why? Because the kids are unlikable. Right. And when we were raising our kids, I made it a goal that I was gonna raise kids I liked. How do you do that? And trying to teach them basic things like kindness and, you know, compassion and respect and integrity and, you know, just trying to make them good human beings. Yeah. You know, more than successful human beings. I want them to be like good humans. And I really like my kids. Like, they're just, and they're also interesting. I've been around other people and they don't ask questions.

• 37:39Erwin McManus?

  And my kids are so inquisitive, they question everything. They don't accept anything I say as face value. I mean, you know, and they press into everything. And I told him, I said, when I've been around other families, they all see the world the same. They don't even ask each other hard questions. How boring would that life be? Yeah. You know, and so I think it's true, not just in a marriage relationship or a dating relationship, but also with your kids. You want people where they are free to be themselves, ask all the hard questions, where you have fun together and enjoy life, you know.

• 38:17Erwin McManus?

  But I actually, you know, Lewis, I really believe that humans are designed for a relationship, that we're not designed to do life alone. And that it's, it's not that being single is an aberration at all. It's that being single isn't the only human connection. You can be single and have deep relationships. Absolutely. You can have deep friendships. And, you know, people will come to Mosaic, you know, the church that I started here in Hollywood, and and people will say, well, you know, I can't find community. Not many, but some. And I'll always ask them, I said, "Tell me where you found community in the past." And it'll always be nowhere.

• 39:01Erwin McManus?

  So you see, the problem isn't that there's not community here at Mosaic. The problem is that no one ever taught you the skills of developing community. Like, it's not that there aren't friendships here, it's that you don't know the basic skills of building friendships. And a lot of the things that are almost like essential for human survival, we're not learning anymore. You have to learn how to be a friend. You have to learn how to be kind to people. Yes. You have to learn how to see people as value. You know, they're not a commodity. They're the highest value that you'll ever experience in your life. Right. And so some of it is like, anywhere I go in the world, I have friends instantly. You have friends instantly. Absolutely. Everywhere I go in the world, I have community instantly.

• 39:45Erwin McManus?

  And it happens naturally because people matter to me. It happens naturally because people matter to you. Yeah, we're curious, we want to ask questions, we connect. You care about people, you're interested in them, you're curious, that's why you do what you do. That's why I do what I do. It's because you find people fascinating. You know, I thought, oh, more tragic than not getting to see every place in the world is not getting to meet all the people in the world. I drive sometimes when I'm in different places in the world and I'll see like restaurants with full of people talking. I actually have this feeling, go, I just wish I could go sit at their table and go, what are you guys talking about? Because I see people talking and laughing and having a great time and I feel this longing. I bet you they're having the best conversations.

• 40:27Erwin McManus?

  And people don't realize that, you know, when we're small, we think life is all about things. You know, the gifts that we get. Then we get a little older, we become adolescents, we think life is about experiences. First kiss, first date, you know. And then eventually, if we grow up, life becomes about relationships. There are a lot of adults who are still about things and still about experiences. They don't realize that when you look back on your life, the highlights of your life will not be about the most things or the best experiences. It will be about the people. If you have healthy relationships, you'll have great memories. If you have unhealthy relationships, you will not have great memories. That's true. Doesn't matter how big the experience or how big the plane, the boat, the car. Pocketbook.

• 41:12Lewis Howes?

  If the relationships weren't good, it'll be a bad memory.

• 41:15Erwin McManus?

  That's right.

• 41:15Lewis Howes?

  Be a bad time.

• 41:16Erwin McManus?

  Yeah, but if you have great relationships, the times we have no money, you remember how you laughed and enjoyed life. I can remember when Kim and I slept on the floor because we couldn't afford a bed. Some of the best memories of my life.

• 41:29Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 41:30Erwin McManus?

  Because we were doing it together.

• 41:31Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 41:31Erwin McManus?

  You know, and you have these great experiences in life. You ever had a vacation or experience where you fought with the people you're with?

• 41:39Lewis Howes?

  Yes.

• 41:39Erwin McManus?

  Yeah, that vacation was not a vacation.

• 41:42Lewis Howes?

  No, it was a nightmare.

• 41:43Erwin McManus?

  It was a nightmare, right, you know, and, and you realize, oh, the best experience in the world can be ruined by a bad relationship.

• 41:50Lewis Howes?

  And the worst experiences can be amazing by a great relationship.

• 41:53Erwin McManus?

  That's right.

• 41:54Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 41:54Erwin McManus?

  And so people need to realize the highest frequency at which you will ever live your life is human relationships.

• 41:59Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 42:02Lewis Howes?

  You know, in the modern world, it seems less and less people are waiting to have sex.

• 42:07Erwin McManus?

  Yeah.

• 42:08Lewis Howes?

  Until they're married, right?

• 42:10Erwin McManus?

  Almost no one waits.

• 42:10Lewis Howes?

  Right, right.

• 42:11Erwin McManus?

  Yeah, just be honest.

• 42:12Lewis Howes?

  It's very rare.

• 42:12Erwin McManus?

  It's very rare.

• 42:13Lewis Howes?

  It's very, what, 1% maybe, less than that?

• 42:18Lewis Howes?

  What do you think is a good amount of time to wait? For people, were you, were you like, okay, I've actually gotten to know this person, maybe you're not going to wait till marriage, but you've decided we're going to wait until the fifth date, 20th date, 100th date, whatever it is, what do you think should be the knowing of, okay, I'm not going to wait till I'm married, but if the second best option is this, what would that be?

• 42:39Erwin McManus?

  But you're asking the wrong person. Because one, even before I believed in God or believed in Jesus was a person of faith, I know this is hard to believe. I never had sex until I was married.

• 42:49Lewis Howes?

  Wow.

• 42:50Erwin McManus?

  And.

• 42:51Lewis Howes?

  You got married at what, 18?

• 42:53Erwin McManus?

  No, I was 25.

• 42:54Lewis Howes?

  Okay.

• 42:54Erwin McManus?

  Yeah, and, and it wasn't because of my faith. I don't know why.

• 43:00Lewis Howes?

  You're just trying to get girls to like you, right?

• 43:01Erwin McManus?

  Yeah, that's it, that was it. You know, no, you know, I, I had this view of human value that I thought I don't want to treat another human being the way I wouldn't want my daughter to be treated.

• 43:14Lewis Howes?

  That's powerful.

• 43:15Erwin McManus?

  Even though I didn't believe in God, I don't even know really where this came from. I remember even once having a conversation with, like, a parent.

• 43:25Erwin McManus?

  And saying, you know, this girl, she just, you know, she wants to sleep around. I'm not sure what I should do. And I don't know why I said it just when Dad was frustrated. They go, oh, there are girls you just, you just sleep with. That was the advice I was given. In fact, they said, there's some girls you marry, some girls you have sex with. And I remember looking at them and, because the person who told me was actually a Christian. And I was not.

• 43:49Lewis Howes?

  Right.

• 43:50Erwin McManus?

  And I said, yeah, I, I want to hear your opinion when it comes to your kids one day. And so somehow, I'm not sure why, but I just, I did not have sex with other human being because I wanted to wait till I was fully committed to a person.

• 44:03Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 44:04Erwin McManus?

  I, I didn't know why, I didn't, it wasn't a legal thing or more, or like a religious thing. It, it's just the way I was, I structured my own soul.

• 44:13Lewis Howes?

  Yeah, I feel like I was at a lower level of that. I was like, because I knew a lot of my friends and family members had sex in their teens. And I said, I want to wait till I'm 18, till I'm a legal adult. And then I did it.

• 44:24Erwin McManus?

  Everyone I knew had sex. I knew I was a absurd exception.

• 44:30Lewis Howes?

  Yes.

• 44:31Erwin McManus?

  In fact, by the time I was 20, I was going, why am I doing this? I literally would ask myself, this is stupid.

• 44:38Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 44:39Erwin McManus?

  And, but I just couldn't because I, I didn't want to look back on my life going, I think I used that person. And, and I have this internal mechanism where I just never want to take advantage of another human being.

• 44:55Lewis Howes?

  Right.

• 44:55Erwin McManus?

  So, so in that sense, I'm the wrong person to ask. Because I actually like see sex as like the highest human expression of intimacy. So I'm a person who waited till I was married. And I would just say, you're, you're circumventing your fear of commitment by having sex before you're married. It's not even about the moral issue. It's about the fact that you're afraid of committing yourself to another human being. And so I would go from that route and ask, have you dealt with that yet?

• 45:28Lewis Howes?

  Interesting. Okay. So, I mean, for the 99% of people who are, who appreciate that, but are still going to have sex before they get married.

• 45:38Erwin McManus?

  I know.

• 45:39Lewis Howes?

  Is it at least be fully committed to the person? Is it's, you know, would you have, if you had to lower your standards to a lower level of frequency? What would that, what would you suggest? It would be a feeling, maybe for whatever reason, okay, we're not gonna get married for five years, but we're fully in partnership and living together.

• 45:55Erwin McManus?

  Don't have sex when you see the other person as, as something you're using.

• 46:02Lewis Howes?

  Okay, that's great.

• 46:04Erwin McManus?

  And so first of all, like, value yourself more than any one night, one night stand.

• 46:09Lewis Howes?

  Yes.

• 46:10Erwin McManus?

  Value yourself more than just having sex with someone who doesn't even, won't even remember your name.

• 46:15Lewis Howes?

  Yes.

• 46:16Erwin McManus?

  Value yourself more than having sex with someone who doesn't love you.

• 46:21Erwin McManus?

  And, yeah, and so, and I know that that's not like, look, I, I understand that I'm the exception here. You know, I just think that sex should be the outcome of love.

• 46:33Lewis Howes?

  Right.

• 46:34Erwin McManus?

  And, and so he asked me to lower my standards of going, all right, I just, I just pulled out commitment. I think it should be love and commitment.

• 46:40Lewis Howes?

  Right, right.

• 46:40Erwin McManus?

  So, so I'm going, okay, if I lower it.

• 46:42Lewis Howes?

  But you, you're saying commitment is marriage, is what your definition of commitment is.

• 46:47Erwin McManus?

  I am saying that, look, when you move to that level of intimacy, whether you realize that you've psychologically married, whether you realize it or not. And whether you want to, I see, I'm not even looking at institutional marriage.

• 47:00Lewis Howes?

  Yes.

• 47:00Erwin McManus?

  I'm looking at the psychology, what's happening to your soul. Yes.

• 47:03Lewis Howes?

  Yes.

• 47:04Erwin McManus?

  And you know as well as I do, that when you're in a deep relationship and you believe you love that person, and now you're having sex, when you break up, you're going through the same emotional trauma as divorce.

• 47:14Lewis Howes?

  Wow. So you're saying if you don't have sex, say you're in a relationship for a year or two, and you don't have sex before marriage. You're saying if you break up with the person without having sex, it's easier? Or is less trauma?

• 47:29Erwin McManus?

  Well, the only chance you really have of maintaining a friendship is if you haven't had sex. I mean, you just look back on your life. How many people did you have sex with?

• 47:38Lewis Howes?

  It's funny.

• 47:39Erwin McManus?

  That you're still friends with.

• 47:40Lewis Howes?

  Well, it's funny, because I've always said this, that I would... I'm the type of guy that I'm like, if I've been with someone in a past relationship, and I, you know, I want the best for all these women I've been with, all these women I've been with, but I'm also like, you know, we experience time together, I still would like to be... Part of me is like, yeah, I'd still like to be friendly, right? And have a friendship. None of them want to be friends with me. And I'm always like, man, you know, is that bad? Or maybe...

• 48:08Erwin McManus?

  It's because you... Sex is an unspoken commitment, whether you like to acknowledge it or not.

• 48:14Lewis Howes?

  Right.

• 48:15Erwin McManus?

  And then, once you break up the relationship, there's a violation of that commitment of trust.

• 48:19Lewis Howes?

  Interesting.

• 48:21Erwin McManus?

  And we don't talk about that. So I'm not talking about legal marriage. I'm talking about what happens to your soul. I think the challenge that we're facing right now is that, like, all the old, like, moral constructs are being thrown out, saying, you know, hey, marriage is antiquated, you know?

• 48:41Lewis Howes?

  Have sex with anyone whenever you want. Hook-up culture and...

• 48:43Erwin McManus?

  Yeah, and, and it's... What we're really not paying attention to is, what is actually happening to the internal makeup of a human being? What's happening psychologically? What's happening to you spiritually? What's happening to you in, in, uh, in terms of the essence of your own soul? And it's inescapable that when you move to a level of intimacy with a person, and you believe that you love them, and you believe they love you, and then you have the abrupt end of that, because those relationships, whether we like it or not, they don't end unabruptly.

• 49:19Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 49:20Erwin McManus?

  The deeper you go, the more tearing there is when it's over. And we, we try to pretend that we can have sex with one person, and another person, and other person, and it does nothing to us. And frankly, if it does nothing to you, you're a sociopath. And, uh, and you're damaging other people. And, but you are getting damaged. Your soul is being affected. You are going through a psychological divorce. And it's interesting, the studies show that children are more traumatized by divorce than they are by the death of a parent.

• 49:51Lewis Howes?

  Really?

• 49:51Erwin McManus?

  Yeah, they're more traumatized by the divorce of their parents than the death of their parent. And I think that whether you believe, you know, in marriage, or whether you believe that sex is supposed to only happen in confines of marriage, what you need to believe is that moving towards sexual intimacy with another person has a spiritual, psychological, emotional bonding. That when the relationship breaks, it actually has a deep effect on you as a human being. So when you're just sleeping with a lot of people, what's happening is that your soul is actually becoming numb. And you lose the ability to feel.

• 50:36Lewis Howes?

  Wow.

• 50:37Erwin McManus?

  And it's like drug abuse. When, you know, the reason addiction happens is because what used to give you a high dose anymore. And then you have to have more. You have more, and you have more. And so what happens with sex is that sex becomes an addiction. And it doesn't give you that feeling anymore. It doesn't give you that feeling of being loved. It doesn't give you that feeling of pleasure. It gives that feeling of warmth. And so you just keep escalating the situation. And you're traumatizing your soul. And you don't realize that you're losing the ability not just to love, you're losing the ability to experience love.

• 51:19Erwin McManus?

  And so I would say that people need to be really aware that the human beings are not the same as other animals. That human beings cannot have sex in a healthy way, separated from their psychological well-being.

• 51:38Lewis Howes?

  And that's why commitment, or deeper levels of commitment or marriage or whatever, is important in that process, in your opinion, your belief.

• 51:49Erwin McManus?

  No, no, that's why those things are important in my experience.

• 51:52Lewis Howes?

  Right, right, right.

• 51:53Erwin McManus?

  You know, I would never hold another person to my beliefs. Like, you know, it's not my job to convince you or someone else to not have sex until they're married. I wouldn't even brought it up, except you brought it up.

• 52:04Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 52:04Erwin McManus?

  But it would be, but I do consider it my responsibility to say, "Oh, you can make those choices, but don't, I hope you're not pretending that they don't have a fact." Because when you're traumatized, and when you don't know why you can't trust, when you don't know why you can't love, and when you don't know why you don't feel anymore, someone's gonna have to talk to you about how you treated this as a diminished aspect of the human experience. And it doesn't have the effect.

• 52:35Lewis Howes?

  Not a sacred aspect.

• 52:36Erwin McManus?

  Not a sacred aspect. I actually think sex is sacred. And, you know, but anything that's diminished loses its effect to impact you in a positive way.

• 52:46Lewis Howes?

  Interesting.

• 52:47Erwin McManus?

  You know.

• 52:48Lewis Howes?

  How do we?

• 52:50Erwin McManus?

  By the way, people who overeat never overeat on good food.

• 52:56Lewis Howes?

  Right. You don't overeat on broccoli and vegetables and...

• 53:00Erwin McManus?

  Yeah.

• 53:00Lewis Howes?

  Yeah. Salad.

• 53:02Erwin McManus?

  And, and people who have indiscriminate sex are eating junk food. They're not eating the best food in the world.

• 53:11Lewis Howes?

  Right.

• 53:12Erwin McManus?

  And they're becoming junk food. And so if you treat yourself like junk food, you shouldn't expect that you're making someone else better. So maybe that would be the question. When someone has sex with you, are they becoming a better human being?

• 53:27Lewis Howes?

  Well, people with a big ego might think, "Oh, they're having a great time with me. They're having a great experience."

• 53:31Erwin McManus?

  Well, you know, you're having a great time when you're high on heroin.

• 53:34Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 53:35Erwin McManus?

  I'm not asking you...

• 53:36Lewis Howes?

  Is that healthy? Yeah.

• 53:37Erwin McManus?

  I'm not asking you how you feel on the high. I'm asking you what happens afterwards. Does that person become a better human being?

• 53:42Lewis Howes?

  That's interesting.

• 53:43Erwin McManus?

  Like, I want to live my life where everyone who has crossed my path becomes a better person.

• 53:49Lewis Howes?

  That's a good, I like that, I like that. So how do we? Okay, someone listening or watching is like, you know what? This makes sense, but I've been traumatizing myself for years by getting into a relationship and having sex too quickly and then it not working out and then having casual sex and then feeling like I can't trust myself or other people or not being open to love. What would you say is the process on how to actually heal after a breakup? Or after casual sex encounters that have traumatized you?

• 54:17Erwin McManus?

  Yeah, again, I would say casual sex is your personal declaration that you do not believe you're worthy of love.

• 54:26Lewis Howes?

  Wow.

• 54:26Erwin McManus?

  And I just think the big point is that you need to figure out how to come to a place where you know you're worthy of love. So whatever you decide, don't decide because you don't feel worthy of love.

• 54:41Lewis Howes?

  Right.

• 54:41Erwin McManus?

  Okay, you know, and...

• 54:43Lewis Howes?

  Don't make it because you're seeking love.

• 54:45Erwin McManus?

  Yeah, because you don't believe that person will stay with you.

• 54:48Lewis Howes?

  Hmm, interesting.

• 54:50Erwin McManus?

  Without sex. You know, because then you're actually giving someone something because you don't believe you can receive love freely. You know, and it's odd, but when you're talking about unconditional love, you're right in the middle of it, right here, you know? And I think that the greatest lovers in the world are the people who can love one person for a lifetime. Like when, you know, guys, you know, I love women and I go, really?

• 55:26Erwin McManus?

  You know, yeah, you know, because like I sat in a room with these guys at this mastermind and all the guys at the table were talking about all the women they're having sex with.

• 55:40Erwin McManus?

  And I was sitting there thinking to myself, if the women that they're having sex with were hearing this, would they still choose to have sex with them? Or do they have such a low self-esteem, they still would? And they were like, yeah, she didn't have much of a face, but she had a great body, so I just didn't look at her.

• 55:56Lewis Howes?

  Oh, man.

• 55:57Erwin McManus?

  You could just, you know, and then they used, you know, pretty descriptive language and on and on. And finally I said, I wonder if those women are getting together right now saying, you know, he has great abs, but he's brain dead, you know? And or he wasn't much, you know, a human being, but at least, you know? And they just looked at me and they said, yeah, maybe, you know? And what was really bothering me was...

• 56:21Erwin McManus?

  That they actually saw women as something to be used. So there is this pendulum, you know, Louis, where we, when you diminish something, eventually it becomes completely worthless. And, and so maybe what I would say is, if I had to choose one extreme, between everyone just sleeping around indiscriminately with each other, using each other, or this prudish idea that you should only have sex in your marriage, I'm gonna go way over on this side because no one will ever accuse me of making my sexual choices for my own personal pleasure or, um, or betterment.

• 57:04Erwin McManus?

  Like, I'm, at the very least, I can say I've made my choices to cause the least amount of harm and to do the most good. Maybe I was wrong, but I, but I tried to do the most good.

• 57:16Lewis Howes?

  Right, for yourself and for others.

• 57:18Erwin McManus?

  Yeah, for myself and for others, not for what I wanted.

• 57:22Lewis Howes?

  Right.

• 57:22Erwin McManus?

  You know, see, because

• 57:23Lewis Howes?

  Not for your desires.

• 57:24Erwin McManus?

  Not for my desires, yeah.

• 57:26Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 57:26Erwin McManus?

  You know, and, uh, but because I try to make all my choices that way. So sex was just one of those.

• 57:33Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 57:33Erwin McManus?

  You know, and, and so I think some of it is just to make sure that you're not traumatized by,

• 57:40Erwin McManus?

  your future decisions shouldn't, don't have to be a reflection of your past decisions. Like, wherever you are right now, if, if, you know, you, you feel like, if I've, I've made a lot of choices that I regret. Like, I can't decide whether you regret those choices or not, only you can. But I think there are people out there going, I wish I'd maybe waited longer, I wish I had been more,

• 58:03Erwin McManus?

  cautious in the process, or maybe I wish I'd valued myself more.

• 58:06Lewis Howes?

  Right.

• 58:06Erwin McManus?

  You know, and, um, and I would just say, the beautiful thing, and that's why I, you know, always go back to Jesus is,

• 58:15Erwin McManus?

  you can, today's a new start, today's a fresh light. You know, it doesn't mean your past doesn't have momentum, but it doesn't, it doesn't have to control you.

• 58:23Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 58:24Erwin McManus?

  You know, we're always just one choice away from a different us.

• 58:27Lewis Howes?

  Absolutely.

• 58:27Erwin McManus?

  You know, and, yeah, I just don't wanna, I just don't want people to look back on their life and feel like They weren't love, they were just used.

• 58:37Lewis Howes?

  Mm-hmm.

• 58:38Erwin McManus?

  You know, I think everyone's worthy of love. And I think everyone's worthy of someone who commits their life to them, Louis.

• 58:43Lewis Howes?

  Yeah, that's beautiful. That's the ultimate love. Uh, I've got a couple of final questions, uh, but I want people to be aware of and get your book, The Genius of Jesus, The Man Who Changed Everything. And really, the kind of the key principles of genius that, that Jesus lived by. Genius of empathy, of power, grace, good, true, and the beautiful. Uh, a lot of amazing stuff in here. I started to skim through. I told you I'd skim through it. I've been skimming through it. I'm gonna get through more of it soon. Uh, but make sure you guys pick up a copy and get a few for your friends. This would be an inspiring, uh, book that you can share with other people. You can talk about it together and really get some wisdom from this. So get The Genius of Jesus, The Man Who Changed Everything.

• 59:27Lewis Howes?

  Um, and you have a great philosophical approach and spiritual approach to, to the things that you've been studying within genius and a lot of people, but also ingenious. So make sure you guys pick up a copy. They can get it at thegeniusof.com, or they can just follow you on social media, Erwin McManus, everywhere on social media.

• 59:45Lewis Howes?

  Uh, also, if you're in LA, make sure to go check out Mosaic. Because it's a beautiful time, or you can watch it online.

• 59:51Erwin McManus?

  Or you go to South Pasadena, we have at the Rialto Theater.

• 59:54Lewis Howes?

  It's beautiful there too. So, or you can just watch it online if you're around the world. Where they can go to mosaic.org to watch the livestream anywhere in the world if they're not here in LA. Um, this is, this is a question I've asked you before. I'm curious if it's the same answer, if you have something different here. This is called the three truths.

• 1:00:10Erwin McManus?

  Okay.

• 1:00:11Lewis Howes?

  So imagine it's your last day on earth, many years away from now. You continue to accomplish all of your wildest dreams, still with some untapped potential, but you've let a lot of it out. Um, but for whatever reason, all of your written material, your audio, your video material has to go with you somewhere else, or it's gone. It's gone to another place, or with you, or wherever you want it to go, but it's not on this earth. But you get to leave behind three things you know to be true. Three lessons that you've learned from your life that you would share with the world. And this is all we would have from you are these three truths. What would you say are those three truths for you?

• 1:00:48Erwin McManus?

  Well, I just go with whatever just pops into my mind.

• 1:00:50Lewis Howes?

  Yes.

• 1:00:50Erwin McManus?

  The first thing came to my mind was being human is a gift. I think the second truth I would leave is you're created in the image of God. Another would be, you must choose to live.

• 1:01:04Lewis Howes?

  You must choose to live. What does that mean?

• 1:01:08Erwin McManus?

  It means we exist without choice. But to live, you have to choose.

• 1:01:17Lewis Howes?

  We existed without choosing to be here.

• 1:01:19Erwin McManus?

  But to truly live?

• 1:01:21Lewis Howes?

  Hmm.

• 1:01:22Erwin McManus?

  That's the result of the choices you make.

• 1:01:23Lewis Howes?

  Wow, that's good. Yeah, those are good. Before I ask the final question, Erwin, I want to acknowledge you for being incredible light to the world. You've been such a light for me since I met you, I think, two and a half years ago. It's been such a gift to be a part of your life and part of your family's experience and be at events and at your home and at your mosaic. And every time I go, I just feel, you know, more peace. So I appreciate you for bringing your creative genius to the world so we can have more clarity, hope, love, and peace. And I'm just glad you're alive. So I appreciate your gifts.

• 1:01:58Erwin McManus?

  Hey, love you so much, Louis.

• 1:01:59Lewis Howes?

  Of course, of course. Final question is what's the definition of greatness for you?

• 1:02:04Erwin McManus?

  It's funny because, you know, genius and greatness really have a very parallel kind of journey, you know? I just can't escape, I guess, for me greatness is what you do for others. And fame is what you do for yourself.

• 1:02:20Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 1:02:20Erwin McManus?

  And so I would say my definition of greatness is the good you do for the world.

• 1:02:26Lewis Howes?

  Erwin, thanks, man.

• 1:02:27Erwin McManus?

  Hey, thank you so much, Rob.

• 1:02:30Lewis Howes?

  Thank you so much for listening. I hope you enjoyed today's episode and it inspired you on your journey towards greatness. Make sure to check out the show notes in the description for a full rundown of today's show with all the important links. I really love hearing feedback from you guys, so share a review over on Apple and let me know what part of this episode resonated with you the most. And if no one's told you lately, I want to remind you that you are loved, you are worthy, and you matter. And now it's time to go out there and do something great.