Michelin Guide Controversy, New Year’s Goals and the Internet's Favorite Phyllo Cake!!

Adrienne and Joe are back in the new year and tell us all about their biggest goals for what lies ahead, including TV hosting aspirations and building more community among local chefs. Plus, we discuss: The most controversial Michelin star upgrades (and downgrades) among major American restaurants Why it means so much to get one or more Michelin stars and how it impacts a restaurant A surprising stat about just how many black chefs have (and have not) received a Michelin star Fork It or Forget It: Adrienne baked the viral phyllo dough cake Walk In Confession: Joe’s grueling wait to find out if he got his first Michelin star Follow the show: @chefscutpod Follow Adrienne: @chefadriennecheatham Follow Joe: @insta.flamm

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Adrienne Cheatham?

  This week on the chef's cut, we are talking about no resolutions, but goals for 2026. I want a TV show. I want to host a show. We're gonna try the viral filo cake that 4.8 million people are talking about. Look at the cross section.

• 0:17Adrienne Cheatham?

  And Joe and I have a bone to pick with the Michelin guide. I'm like, are they racist or are they cuisinist? We are back, baby. Joe, what's up? Happy holidays. Happy new year.

• 0:31Joe Flamm?

  See, happy new year. Happy holidays. We're so back. I missed it so much.

• 0:36Adrienne Cheatham?

  I did too. I really miss like getting together to talk about all the, all the things.

• 0:41Joe Flamm?

  I know. I was getting everything set up today. I was getting excited. I was like, all right, here we go. Back into, back into the lab, if you will.

• 0:48Adrienne Cheatham?

  Yes, right? This is so exciting. And it is a whole new year. It's 2026. And we left a lot on the table at the end of 2025. But for this year, Joe, are you a resolution person?

• 1:02Joe Flamm?

  So I'm not, I'm not like a resolution person, like this year, I'm gonna stop whatever. But I am a goal person. Me and my chefs, we sit around and we set a goal. We set one personal, one professional, and then one, we call it a team goal. So I'm big into that. I like setting goals and I like being able to look back at them and be like, all right, you know, like, what did we accomplish last year?

• 1:25Adrienne Cheatham?

  Yeah, especially when you put it on record, like you're accountable for it. And especially the people around you will be holding you accountable, too.

• 1:32Joe Flamm?

  Mm hmm. Cause I remember, you know, it was the year after I took over Boulevard and it got to my goals. They said, what are you gonna do? And I said, I'm gonna sign a lease this year.

• 1:44Joe Flamm?

  And I remember like, you know, Taqua'd sitting there and his eyes got like this big. He's like, you know what? I was like, I'm gonna sign a lease this year and we're gonna, you know. We're gonna open another restaurant.

• 1:53Adrienne Cheatham?

  Wow, was that for Il Cartofo?

• 1:55Joe Flamm?

  Uh huh. And then it was like, you know, being able to sit them there with them the next year and they were like, you said it. And I was like, you know, it's, it's cool to like, you know, accomplish goals together. How about you? You got, you got a resolution, some goals?

• 2:09Adrienne Cheatham?

  I don't do resolutions. They don't work for me, even when I set them for myself.

• 2:14Joe Flamm?

  Yeah.

• 2:14Adrienne Cheatham?

  So I like goals. That, that seems like something that I think I could, I could go with.

• 2:18Joe Flamm?

  All right. So then how about, how about this year? We get you on the,

• 2:22Adrienne Cheatham?

  Okay.

• 2:23Joe Flamm?

  Uh, uh, on the goal train.

• 2:24Adrienne Cheatham?

  I like this.

• 2:25Joe Flamm?

  No resolutions, resolutions. Let's not restrict ourselves, Adrian. We're attacking this year.

• 2:30Adrienne Cheatham?

  I like it. Let's go.

• 2:31Joe Flamm?

  We are wild tigers running through the jungle, attacking 2026. All right. So my two goals I want from you for the year, H. I'll give you mine as well. But I think one would be something professional.

• 2:45Adrienne Cheatham?

  Okay.

• 2:46Joe Flamm?

  For yourself. Um, that's gotta be cooking related, not just like, oh, you know, I want to be in New York Times business again. You know, like, I don't want to hear it. Um, and, uh, but like something cooking related.

• 2:58Adrienne Cheatham?

  Okay.

• 2:58Joe Flamm?

  I guess if it's a cookbook, that counts too, but.

• 3:00Adrienne Cheatham?

  Yeah.

• 3:00Joe Flamm?

  Um, I'll give you that one. Uh, and I, one travel related. I want to know where you want to go this year. Let's go domestic though. I think we can get into abroad, but I would like to say specifically, you and I have both traveled quite a bit.

• 3:16Joe Flamm?

  But give me a spot. Doesn't have to be continental US, but US.

• 3:22Adrienne Cheatham?

  Okay.

• 3:23Joe Flamm?

  That you're like, this year, never been to this place.

• 3:26Adrienne Cheatham?

  Huh.

• 3:27Joe Flamm?

  I really want to go.

• 3:28Adrienne Cheatham?

  I like that. Okay. I think I have a, a place in mind, but let's start with professional. Professionally, and this is going to sound weird because this is something I never thought I would be doing in my career in the first place. I want a TV show. I want to host a show.

• 3:46Joe Flamm?

  Oh.

• 3:47Adrienne Cheatham?

  I want to be the host of a show.

• 3:49Joe Flamm?

  Like what?

• 3:50Adrienne Cheatham?

  A cooking show.

• 3:51Joe Flamm?

  Like cooking competition show or like,

• 3:53Adrienne Cheatham?

  I don't know. It could be.

• 3:54Joe Flamm?

  Adrian's Adventures.

• 3:56Adrienne Cheatham?

  I mean,

• 3:56Joe Flamm?

  Come along with me as we tour rural Arkansas and hog hunt.

• 4:02Adrienne Cheatham?

  Oh my God, I would love that. But yeah, I want it to be either cooking related where I'm cooking on camera with people. You know, some kind of format like that, or. Digging into the stories of the people who create food and the people in hospitality, because there are so many awesome people doing really cool stuff all around the country, all around the world. So I want it to be either about the people who create the food and the food that they're making or cooking in the studio kind of thing.

• 4:35Joe Flamm?

  I don't think I would challenge you on that. I think that's

• 4:37Adrienne Cheatham?

  But everything is competition. So I feel like

• 4:39Joe Flamm?

  Yeah, everything is competition, but I think that's kind of like where your career is just kind of gone, right?

• 4:45Adrienne Cheatham?

  And it's so weird because I never thought I would be doing

• 4:48Joe Flamm?

  You do a lot of judging, you know what I mean? You know, you wrote the book, you have the pop-up series, like you do all these things, you know, I think it's, it's a natural progression of like, of a want and you know what I mean, something that makes sense for you.

• 5:01Adrienne Cheatham?

  As a younger chef, it's one of those things that like you felt like you would never say that out loud. You know, it's like, real chefs don't, yeah, it was totally different.

• 5:10Joe Flamm?

  It was like, if somebody was like, you're a TV chef, it was like,

• 5:14Adrienne Cheatham?

  Oh, you're not a real chef.

• 5:15Joe Flamm?

  It was like, I'd rather you call me anything. You know, it's like, oh, it's like, oh, what do you, what do you want to be on TV?

• 5:22Adrienne Cheatham?

  Right, right.

• 5:23Joe Flamm?

  It's like, no, I would never go on TV. No, I'm a real chef.

• 5:28Adrienne Cheatham?

  I'm a restaurant chef.

• 5:29Joe Flamm?

  Yeah, I'm a restaurant chef.

• 5:30Adrienne Cheatham?

  Look at these birds.

• 5:31Joe Flamm?

  Yeah, yeah, look at these birds. Look at, look at, look at my knife. It's Japanese. It has a dragon on it. I have a dragon on my knife. I'm not a silly TV chef.

• 5:41Adrienne Cheatham?

  Yeah, so that's, it's something that I've, I've grown and I've evolved and I'm doing stuff in my career that I never saw myself doing. One of them is television, because I also thought I would be in a kitchen my entire career. And things have changed, like you said, so I'm really excited about it. And I actually like doing it more than I ever, I didn't know how much fun it was. It's pretty fucking awesome. You get to meet really cool people and learn about new food and go new places. It's really fun. I love it.

• 6:10Joe Flamm?

  I love that. Yeah. All right. So give me the other one. Where, where are we going?

• 6:14Adrienne Cheatham?

  Okay, travel wise, I would love to go, you know, a place that I've never really spent much time. And this is going to sound weird because I've been there. I was actually there with you, Colorado.

• 6:27Joe Flamm?

  Have you never been to Colorado besides for our season?

• 6:30Adrienne Cheatham?

  Besides Top Chef, I may have like I've flown through the Denver airport. I've been to Aspen for food and wine, but I have never like just experienced going to Colorado to try restaurants, try the food, like the whole Four Corners cuisine, you know, it's like it's Southwest, but it's different. Like I've actually never been there.

• 6:51Joe Flamm?

  It's one of my favorite places. It was one of my favorite places long before Top Chef. I love it. I think it's unbelievably beautiful. There is really good food there. There's really great chefs out there. The mountain towns are incredible. They're cool. They have character. They're fun. It's just such a such an interesting place to me. I think especially being from the Midwest, you know what I mean?

• 7:11Adrienne Cheatham?

  Right.

• 7:12Joe Flamm?

  Where it's like, you know, you go from Chicago to New York, you're like, this place makes sense, right? It's like just a more augmented version of what we knew.

• 7:19Adrienne Cheatham?

  It's denser. It's just the same city, just denser.

• 7:22Joe Flamm?

  Right. And then you go to like LA or San Francisco and you're like, okay, this is just like water or more condensed or more spread out or you know what I mean? Like whatever. But like you go and like, I feel like when you land in Colorado and like you're in the mountains, you're like, this is different. This is completely different. Like this is, this is wild.

• 7:40Adrienne Cheatham?

  I've been hearing really good things about the food and I've always wanted to just like that scenery, that that like just vast landscape, the greenery, the mountains and the hills. That's something that I don't really see very often. So that's, that's the place that I want to go. But what about you? What is a professional and a domestic travel goal for you?

• 8:01Joe Flamm?

  So my professional goal, this has been one that I've had in the back of my head kind of for years and I haven't had kind of the time or energy to really like pull it off. But I've wanted to do, I've been like obsessed with this idea of starting like in industry, like book club. Like where I want to have like a book club for like cooks, chefs and where it's like once a month, we like meet and have coffee and we like talk about a cookbook we all read.

• 8:32Adrienne Cheatham?

  Oh, I love that.

• 8:33Joe Flamm?

  And like maybe somebody cooks something from it.

• 8:35Adrienne Cheatham?

  To Chicago.

• 8:36Joe Flamm?

  No, it does limit it to Chicago. It would be a very local thing, but I think it'd be a cool thing for to connect where it's like you don't have to be the chef of a restaurant. You could just be a cook who wants to come and is reading the book that we're reading. And like you just sit around and like drink coffee and talk about, you know, like especially like old cookbooks. Like it's just something I always thought would be a really cool idea. And I, I'd like to do that. At least once this year where I'd like to be able to like, sit down and like talk about cookbooks with like, you know, and it doesn't matter. Like it'd be cool if like, I didn't know. Like some of the people like they just showed up and they were like, oh, I want to do this.

• 9:07Adrienne Cheatham?

  Yeah. Yeah. That would make it so much more interesting. And I know some people have like cookbook, book clubs, which is cool because then they get together, they do potluck style, like cook different things from it. But I think it's like, if you want to cook something cool, but the thought about like getting together with a group of people and talking about the book.

• 9:26Joe Flamm?

  Right. Like really going.

• 9:28Adrienne Cheatham?

  Inspiration in the stories.

• 9:30Joe Flamm?

  Right. Like in depth to it a little bit more, talking about the chef, like why this person's important, why this restaurant was important. Like talking about the time and the place of it of like, oh, look at this dish. Like it looks crazy now, but can you imagine seeing this dish in 1993? Like what people's reaction would have been like stuff like that. I don't know. It's been an idea I've had a long time, but that's like professionally. For me, and it's like, it's a little one. It's not some big grandiose, you know, I've, I've basically opened a restaurant every year for the past four years.

• 9:59Adrienne Cheatham?

  Yeah. You've done four restaurants in a very condensed timeline. You've built a great restaurant group and a great team. I don't think that professionally, if you wanted to open another restaurant this year, I would tell you to chill out.

• 10:11Joe Flamm?

  Yeah, I don't, I don't, I don't think I've got a, like, I think I'm chilling.

• 10:16Adrienne Cheatham?

  I hope so. Unless it's a license deal and you don't have to operate it. Cool. But I think, uh, four in four years is, is pretty good. But I love the book.

• 10:24Joe Flamm?

  You, you think I'm going to have something and not be in charge, Adrian?

• 10:27Adrienne Cheatham?

  Hmm.

• 10:27Joe Flamm?

  How long, how long, how long, how long have you known me?

• 10:30Adrienne Cheatham?

  But at some point you're going to get there where you can't be everywhere, Joseph. It's, it's a something you're going to have to come to terms with at some point in your vastly growing career. Just saying.

• 10:40Joe Flamm?

  I've been really good at not coming, not coming to terms with things my whole life. So, you know.

• 10:47Joe Flamm?

  New year, not new me.

• 10:49Adrienne Cheatham?

  Same Joe, new year.

• 10:50Joe Flamm?

  Yep.

• 10:51Adrienne Cheatham?

  So what is a travel goal? Cause I know you go to a ton of places domestically and abroad. So what's a place that you actually haven't been to that you want to?

• 11:00Joe Flamm?

  So I would say the number one, like domestic one that has been on my bucket list my whole life is Alaska.

• 11:07Adrienne Cheatham?

  Oh.

• 11:08Joe Flamm?

  Like I have always been obsessed with Alaska. I love all those like Discovery Channel Alaska shows.

• 11:13Adrienne Cheatham?

  Yes.

• 11:15Joe Flamm?

  Like I, I just am wildly fascinated with it. I have a good buddy up in Juneau, Bo Shuler, who's got a Boca De Lopo up there and he's always like, come up, come up, come up. And he texts me the other day. He's like, we're going to get a really good snow season. And he's like, you should come up and like get some turns in like in February or March. And I'm like, I'm like, I should like, it'd be, it'd be awesome to go cook up there too. Like I have no idea what that would be. Like it's just to me, it's like.

• 11:42Adrienne Cheatham?

  Bear.

• 11:43Joe Flamm?

  And it's like, you know, and it's like, you know, with our season with Laura, talking to her about Alaska and how, you know, different it was. It just to me, it's just seems like one of those like places that's still like wild. Like it's still a frontier. Like it's still, you know what I mean? People are like, so I mean, Alaska for me is, is, is number one.

• 12:03Adrienne Cheatham?

  That's really cool.

• 12:04Joe Flamm?

  Like.

• 12:04Adrienne Cheatham?

  I tried to get my family to do an Alaskan cruise one year so I could see the glaciers and the coastline. I had no takers, no takers. They were like, uh, little girl, we're going to Aruba. Like get out of my face.

• 12:15Joe Flamm?

  No, I can't. That's a hard sell. That's a hard sell of like, hey, you guys want to go like selling people from Chicago on a cold vacation is tough.

• 12:25Adrienne Cheatham?

  No takers. I got shut down so hard on that, but that is, that is a really cool place that you're right. It still seems really untouched for the amount of land and I would love to see your pictures from there.

• 12:37Joe Flamm?

  You're not coming?

• 12:38Adrienne Cheatham?

  Nah, I don't know about that.

• 12:39Joe Flamm?

  Come on, come on. It'll be fun. It'll be fun.

• 12:43Adrienne Cheatham?

  So we started something last year, right at the end of 2025, that our Chefs Cut Nation really liked. And it was changing up the format of our Fork It or Forget It. Do you remember? We did a little show and tell?

• 12:57Joe Flamm?

  We did. Yes, I remember. You made the goldfish cracker.

• 13:01Adrienne Cheatham?

  Oh, marsh, yeah, the risk of the marshmallow treat. Yeah.

• 13:05Joe Flamm?

  Yeah.

• 13:06Adrienne Cheatham?

  Yeah, that was, um, not my favorite, but I'm glad I did it because you see things all the time and you don't know if they're actually going to be good, right?

• 13:14Joe Flamm?

  Yeah, I do. Yeah.

• 13:16Adrienne Cheatham?

  Well, I made something today.

• 13:18Joe Flamm?

  Oh, yes, I love, I love a show and tell.

• 13:22Adrienne Cheatham?

  This is so exciting. Okay, so I'm going to give you a few hints to guess what it is. Now, I saw this video for a long time. I'm not going to lie. It's not something new, but the video is like, I don't know, 4.8 million views, right? So this is like wildfire.

• 13:40Joe Flamm?

  Yeah.

• 13:41Adrienne Cheatham?

  It smells really good, by the way. Um, this thing spread, blew up like crazy. It's one of those viral recipes and I was really curious to see if it was going to be good or not, because I had made one of the versions that I saw of it and it was not good. So I went to the original video and I was like, I have to go to the source.

• 14:00Joe Flamm?

  Yeah.

• 14:01Adrienne Cheatham?

  I have to go to the source and try it. Okay, so I'm going to give you some hints.

• 14:06Adrienne Cheatham?

  It's baked in an oven.

• 14:10Joe Flamm?

  Oh, that arrows it down.

• 14:12Adrienne Cheatham?

  I mean, it's not seared in a pan. Okay.

• 14:14Joe Flamm?

  Yeah, it's not baked in the earth. So you're not making cochinita pabell or barbacoa.

• 14:19Adrienne Cheatham?

  Right, you know, or get Carrie from our season of Top Chef.

• 14:22Joe Flamm?

  The park across the street from your place.

• 14:27Adrienne Cheatham?

  Right, or get Carrie from our season of Top Chef to dig an oven in the snow.

• 14:30Joe Flamm?

  No, you should have.

• 14:33Adrienne Cheatham?

  So, okay, it's crunchy and moist at the same time.

• 14:38Joe Flamm?

  You're giving like the worst hints, like. Like it's food goes in your mouth.

• 14:43Adrienne Cheatham?

  It's edible. Okay. The main ingredient is a key component that you would find in baklava or spinach pie.

• 14:53Joe Flamm?

  Like filo dough?

• 14:54Adrienne Cheatham?

  Yes.

• 14:56Joe Flamm?

  Okay.

• 14:56Adrienne Cheatham?

  Exactly. Okay. See, I had to give you a couple of vague hints before we got to the one that would give it away. Okay.

• 15:01Joe Flamm?

  Did you, did you make burk?

• 15:03Adrienne Cheatham?

  No, I didn't have that kind of time on my hands. I had to.

• 15:07Joe Flamm?

  If you would have made a burk, I would have been, I would have been very impressed.

• 15:10Adrienne Cheatham?

  I would have been impressed. That is not something I'm spending too much time on, but what I made is that viral crinkle filo cake.

• 15:20Joe Flamm?

  Oh.

• 15:22Adrienne Cheatham?

  And yes, there is a piece missing because I had some this morning.

• 15:24Joe Flamm?

  That does look pretty good.

• 15:26Adrienne Cheatham?

  Okay.

• 15:27Joe Flamm?

  So what's, it's like, I mean, first glance, it's sideways as opposed to stacked as a traditional filo.

• 15:34Adrienne Cheatham?

  Right.

• 15:34Joe Flamm?

  So is that like the big deal with it is like you're doing it sideways like?

• 15:37Adrienne Cheatham?

  Yeah. So you kind of fold the filo up like you would, like, you know, a paper fan, how it goes back and forth.

• 15:43Joe Flamm?

  Yeah.

• 15:44Adrienne Cheatham?

  And then you scrunch them up into a pan. Now, the goldfish Rice Krispy treats, they got me. I did a full recipe for this. I did a half recipe.

• 15:53Joe Flamm?

  Yeah.

• 15:53Adrienne Cheatham?

  Because I wasn't sure and I didn't want to fully commit like last time.

• 15:56Joe Flamm?

  So what else is in there besides filo dough?

• 15:59Adrienne Cheatham?

  So you toast the filo in the pan first. You melt for this.

• 16:03Joe Flamm?

  Like dry?

• 16:04Adrienne Cheatham?

  Yeah. You melted, you toasted in the oven, dry, crinkled up. So it gets a little brown, but it kind of dries out the bottom layer also. Not super toasty or brown just yet because you take it in and out of the oven like three times, but you melt a stick of butter first and you pour the stick of butter over the filo. Put it back in the oven for another 10 minutes.

• 16:26Joe Flamm?

  Okay.

• 16:26Adrienne Cheatham?

  It kind of gets the filo fatty, crunchy, crispy on the top and bottom by then.

• 16:32Joe Flamm?

  Yeah. Cause usually you're like, in my experience dealing with filo is like, it's usually like filo brushing butter. And then you're like, almost like you're doing like a lamination.

• 16:42Adrienne Cheatham?

  Exactly. So this, instead of brushing every single layer of filo dough, you're crinkling it up and then pouring the butter over. So, you know, I could see it going either way. If you brush them, then crinkle them that, you know, but it is more labor intensive.

• 16:56Joe Flamm?

  But like this is the whole point is you're supposed to pour the butter over because it's easier, right?

• 17:00Adrienne Cheatham?

  Exactly. Yeah. And then you make a custard that is about, for a full recipe, I want to say it's like a cup of milk. Two eggs, cup of sugar and some vanilla.

• 17:11Joe Flamm?

  Raw dog custard?

• 17:12Adrienne Cheatham?

  Yeah, you whisk it in a bowl completely raw. You don't cook the eggs or anything first or you know, temper. You just mix the custard in a bowl, pour it over said filo.

• 17:24Joe Flamm?

  So you're making a filo frittata?

• 17:27Adrienne Cheatham?

  Yeah, it's like a filo casserole, essentially, a sweet filo casserole, if you will. And then you pop it in the oven and bake it for like thirty to forty more minutes. Then you take it out and you go baklava style where you pour a hot syrup over it after it's cooled.

• 17:43Joe Flamm?

  What kind of syrup did you pour over it?

• 17:46Adrienne Cheatham?

  It's like a simple syrup, but just less water. So usually, simple syrup is one part water, one part sugar or equal parts. This is one part sugar to half part water. So it's a thicker syrup.

• 17:58Joe Flamm?

  A little vanilla, rose water, perhaps?

• 18:00Adrienne Cheatham?

  The viral recipe was just the basic syrup, but, okay, so because I did a half recipe, I still had a half pack of filo left. So I did make a second one. Where I put orange zest and bay leaf into the syrup.

• 18:18Joe Flamm?

  Is that two bay leaves for one pan?

• 18:20Adrienne Cheatham?

  It's just infused in the syrup. So, you know, not a big deal.

• 18:24Joe Flamm?

  Two bay leaves.

• 18:26Adrienne Cheatham?

  And two peels of orange zest, right?

• 18:28Joe Flamm?

  My grandmother would think you were a Rockefeller.

• 18:32Joe Flamm?

  It's a two bay leaves for one recipe.

• 18:34Adrienne Cheatham?

  They are fresh bay leaves, so they're not as strong as dry.

• 18:37Joe Flamm?

  Yeah, true, true, true.

• 18:38Adrienne Cheatham?

  So I had to use two because you're not going to get the same. It's a different aroma from dry. I love fresh bay leaves. You know, my mother-in-law has a bay leaf tree outside of her house.

• 18:46Joe Flamm?

  Where does she live?

• 18:47Adrienne Cheatham?

  New Orleans.

• 18:49Joe Flamm?

  Oh, wow. Okay, that makes sense.

• 18:50Adrienne Cheatham?

  I still leave every time I'm over there. It's actually her neighbor's tree, so don't tell her neighbor.

• 18:57Adrienne Cheatham?

  But I tried it this morning, so it smells really good because, okay, maybe I added a little more vanilla than the recipe called for. I didn't measure it. I just poured it.

• 19:06Joe Flamm?

  No one measures vanilla.

• 19:07Adrienne Cheatham?

  Yeah, right?

• 19:08Joe Flamm?

  Who measures?

• 19:09Adrienne Cheatham?

  You measure on vibes.

• 19:10Joe Flamm?

  Right, dude. Vanilla is a vibe. It is not a measurable ingredient. You just like put it in till you're like, yeah, that's right.

• 19:17Adrienne Cheatham?

  Yeah, looks good.

• 19:18Joe Flamm?

  That's how you measure vanilla. You go, yeah, you go, yeah, that's right.

• 19:22Adrienne Cheatham?

  Yeah, pretty much. So I had a little piece this morning. But look at this side, like, look at the cross section.

• 19:34Joe Flamm?

  See, you know what I don't like about it?

• 19:36Adrienne Cheatham?

  What? What are you gonna hate on right now?

• 19:39Joe Flamm?

  That like cooked egg in there? Looks so casserole-y. It looks so like cafeteria egg bake in the morning.

• 19:49Adrienne Cheatham?

  Oh, you are just so anti. Oh, shut up. This is gorgeous. Look at the waves in that. That does not look-

• 19:56Joe Flamm?

  The waves of the filo, the waves of the filo look great, but then it's like that like, that like really cooked egg in the middle was like, mm, I don't know.

• 20:04Adrienne Cheatham?

  No, no, you're wrong. You're totally wrong because it just kind of soaked in.

• 20:09Joe Flamm?

  I don't know. It looks like you got some scrambled eggs folded in there.

• 20:13Adrienne Cheatham?

  Absolutely not. I don't even see that look. You're, maybe my camera's not good, but it is fucking delicious.

• 20:21Joe Flamm?

  Is it?

• 20:22Adrienne Cheatham?

  Uh huh.

• 20:26Adrienne Cheatham?

  This is the, I've never, most recipes, I usually stay away from like viral recipes because most of them are actually quite awful.

• 20:34Joe Flamm?

  Yeah.

• 20:35Adrienne Cheatham?

  Most of them kind of suck. This shit is so good.

• 20:39Joe Flamm?

  Your cooked egg casserole filo.

• 20:42Adrienne Cheatham?

  Oh, shut up. Just because it didn't get tempered in a pot before baking it.

• 20:45Joe Flamm?

  I'm not worried about it getting tempered. It's just like cooking eggs.

• 20:47Adrienne Cheatham?

  You're such a snob, Joe.

• 20:49Joe Flamm?

  Cooking eggs hard into like a breakfast. It's a breakfast casserole. Like you made a breakfast casserole.

• 20:54Adrienne Cheatham?

  And I'm okay with that.

• 20:56Joe Flamm?

  Okay, I'm just saying. I just want to call it what it is. Just say you made a breakfast casserole.

• 21:00Adrienne Cheatham?

  This thing is bringing me so much joy right now. It's so crunchy on top.

• 21:03Joe Flamm?

  It's like you're going to, it's like you're going to brunch at like your friend's house for a potluck and you're like, oh, I made this filo dough breakfast casserole. And they're like, oh my God, Adrian, you make the best stuff.

• 21:16Joe Flamm?

  You should be a chef.

• 21:19Adrienne Cheatham?

  Oh my God, I'm gonna quit my job and go to culinary school.

• 21:24Adrienne Cheatham?

  It is definitely giving those vibes. I am not gonna lie. A hundred percent. I'm not arguing with you there. Call me what you want. I like it. It is a little bit sweet. So if I make it again, which I might, if I host family for the holidays next year, like we did this year, we had like six, seven people from New Orleans. I'm making this. I am making this, but I would come back to sugar.

• 21:48Joe Flamm?

  You're making that for your in-laws.

• 21:50Adrienne Cheatham?

  Yeah, I would.

• 21:51Joe Flamm?

  All right, I'll try it. I'm not saying I'm gonna, I'm gonna fork it, but I'll say, I'll try it. I will give you the benefit of the doubt as my friend.

• 21:59Adrienne Cheatham?

  Have I ever steered you wrong before?

• 22:01Joe Flamm?

  Thousand times, but, but for some reason I still trust you.

• 22:07Adrienne Cheatham?

  Thank you.

• 22:07Joe Flamm?

  And I will still follow, follow you into the fires.

• 22:12Joe Flamm?

  All right.

• 22:13Adrienne Cheatham?

  I appreciate that.

• 22:14Joe Flamm?

  So that's a fork it for you then. You're, you're all over this, this casserole.

• 22:20Joe Flamm?

  There's some other stuff we gotta get into today.

• 22:22Adrienne Cheatham?

  Yeah.

• 22:22Joe Flamm?

  Cause end of year, one big thing we never got a chance to talk about is something you and I have both dealt with in our careers. The Michelin guide came out for you.

• 22:32Adrienne Cheatham?

  Yes.

• 22:34Joe Flamm?

  And in Chicago, it was a huge to do because the big news out of Chicago was a linear going from three to two.

• 22:41Adrienne Cheatham?

  Right.

• 22:42Joe Flamm?

  But the big one that happened this year is Kasama went from one to two.

• 22:46Adrienne Cheatham?

  Yes.

• 22:47Joe Flamm?

  And became a two star.

• 22:49Adrienne Cheatham?

  That's huge.

• 22:51Joe Flamm?

  That's huge. That was wild. I think that was, you know, less surprising though than, than a linear go into three to two was, I mean, unbelievable. The news came out before the stars came out, like the news broke early, like Grant Aketz announced it.

• 23:04Adrienne Cheatham?

  And you know what I immediately thought about was remember our interview with LaGaiya Mashan? And how her review of a linear was not that favorable. And then the Michelin re-review came out where they lost a star. And at first, you know, I, I think people who were kind of talking shit about LaGaiya's review. Maybe at that point it was like, if I were her, I'm sure she was just sitting there like.

• 23:29Adrienne Cheatham?

  Uh, what do you, what do you have to say now?

• 23:33Joe Flamm?

  Yeah, I mean, and it's, and it's one of those things, you know, it's kind of like to, to go back to the La Gaya thing, you know, it's like the idea of like, and it's weird, right? Cause like, if you think about it, it's like, Kassama got two stars, Olenia got two stars. Two stars is incredible. It's rarified air. However, the vibes in those two places of both of them going to two stars, I can't imagine more polar opposites.

• 24:01Adrienne Cheatham?

  Yeah, yeah. Two totally different types. It's not even the cuisine. It's not that one is Filipino and the other is like more Eurocentric kind of ingredients. They're just totally different atmospheres, totally different styles of restaurants.

• 24:16Joe Flamm?

  But I'm saying of like, of both achieving something and at one place it's seen like, you know, at 99.9% of the restaurants in the world, if you got two Michelin stars, you'd be like, this is the greatest day of our life.

• 24:29Adrienne Cheatham?

  Yeah.

• 24:30Joe Flamm?

  The only point, you know, 1% is the place where you already had three. And it's like, and it's not unprecedented. You know what I mean? We saw it happen in New York years ago with Danielle and I think John George, right? They went from three to two.

• 24:44Adrienne Cheatham?

  I know Danielle did.

• 24:46Joe Flamm?

  And I think Ducasse back in the day went from three to two.

• 24:50Adrienne Cheatham?

  And at the time Danielle had also lost a New York Times star. So it's interesting how those things tracked between there and Olenia.

• 24:58Joe Flamm?

  So it's not wildly unprecedented in Michelin, but you know, so I think it's like, I think we gotta get into Michelin a little bit today because I think it's, it's a lot of cloak and dagger, right?

• 25:09Adrienne Cheatham?

  Right.

• 25:09Joe Flamm?

  And even, you know, it's, it's both of us who we worked in Michelin kitchens. And even before I got into that, there's always like murmurs of it. Cause for people who don't know, right? It's that, it's not like, you know, the reviewers, you kind of know who they are, right? As much as they try to hide, people figure it out. But Michelin, you genuinely. Have no idea.

• 25:31Adrienne Cheatham?

  Yeah.

• 25:31Joe Flamm?

  You have no idea. There was always rumors, right? Like the one I always heard like back in the day, and I don't know what the rumors were in New York, but in Chicago, they always were like, uh, solo diner. Anytime there was a solo diner.

• 25:42Adrienne Cheatham?

  Yes.

• 25:43Joe Flamm?

  Look, it's the guy.

• 25:44Adrienne Cheatham?

  Yep.

• 25:44Joe Flamm?

  It's the guy.

• 25:44Adrienne Cheatham?

  It's the guy.

• 25:45Joe Flamm?

  I still make that joke to this day. Like, I still think it's funny.

• 25:48Adrienne Cheatham?

  Solo diner VIP.

• 25:49Joe Flamm?

  Right. You know what I mean? It's like the, when we first opened Bar Tuto, someone came in the cafe and they like sat down by themselves and ordered like an egg sandwich. I was like, it's the guide. It's the guy. It's Michelin. They're here. They're here to give me my, my star for best.

• 26:02Adrienne Cheatham?

  And that was one of the few things that anybody ever knew about Michelin reviewers of that, you know, a large percent of the time, they go out by themselves.

• 26:10Joe Flamm?

  And that was, that was complete hearsay. I've never heard anyone have a confirmation of like, oh yeah, that's how Michelin does it. I've never heard that in my life, but that was always like the thing was the guide. And then the only other one I've heard, and I don't know if you've heard this, is that the rumor was, at least in Chicago, when you go, if you're trying to go to from two to three, for you to get three stars, someone from Michelin in France has to come and give it the, the blessing to go to three. It can't be done by the locals.

• 26:44Adrienne Cheatham?

  Okay. So from what I've heard, no decision is based solely on any one group, that it, it is kind of like people get together from other places. So that's, that's interesting that it has to be the people from France where the Michelin guide is based.

• 27:01Joe Flamm?

  Again, I don't know if that's true.

• 27:02Adrienne Cheatham?

  Right.

• 27:03Joe Flamm?

  That's just what I've heard. Like, there's nowhere. It's not, yeah, it's just pure speculation, but because I had a buddy who worked at Grace when they were trying to go from two to three.

• 27:14Adrienne Cheatham?

  Hmm.

• 27:15Joe Flamm?

  And he said that that was the rumor they had heard, was that someone from France had to come. He said, so anytime someone had a international phone number that tracked to France.

• 27:25Adrienne Cheatham?

  Yeah.

• 27:26Joe Flamm?

  Or a French sounding name.

• 27:29Adrienne Cheatham?

  Mm hmm.

• 27:30Joe Flamm?

  In that year, it was like that table was like PPX crazy. Like if that table was like, oh, I really like these chairs. They should be like, oh, we'll send two chairs to your hotel.

• 27:40Adrienne Cheatham?

  Right.

• 27:41Joe Flamm?

  You know what I mean? Like do just like crazy shit.

• 27:43Adrienne Cheatham?

  Yeah.

• 27:43Joe Flamm?

  To be like, to like push it over the top. But it's like, again, it's like, it's so cloak and dagger. And like, you know, you don't talk to them except for, you know, when they call. And they call the day and say, hey, congratulations, Chef Adrian. You know, we have decided you received two Michelin stars. Right? So you don't know anything.

• 28:00Adrienne Cheatham?

  Before we get into this, because I know we both have strong opinions on this. And so we're, we're, we're gonna do this. But most people know this, but a lot of people don't. The Michelin guide, the dining guide that we're talking about related to restaurants. Yes, Michelin sounds familiar because it is the tire company. The Michelin guide started in like, I don't know, 1900? Because it was a little book that they would give you of places to get gas, places to stay and places to get some food. Because they're trying to sell tires and they're trying to get people on the road. Exactly. There it was called motoring back then. So they're trying to get people to become motorists.

• 28:41Adrienne Cheatham?

  And to do that, it's like, this restaurant is excellent. Maybe you should consider driving somewhere to see it. Or if you're in France and you want to drive up to the mountains. Okay, on the way, here's this restaurant, which isn't one star is not worth a special trip. But if you're passing it, stop there. Two stars was take a detour from the road and go to that two star. Three stars meant you are building your trip around that restaurant. You're not going to mountains. You're going to that restaurant.

• 29:11Joe Flamm?

  Which I think as a scale, you know, you think of a scale that's 120 years old at this point is a pretty brilliant scale.

• 29:21Adrienne Cheatham?

  Yeah.

• 29:22Joe Flamm?

  If that's the, you know what I mean? If you held truly true to it.

• 29:25Adrienne Cheatham?

  Yeah.

• 29:26Joe Flamm?

  Like if a one star was like, this is a really good restaurant. If you're there, you should go. And two stars is like, this is worth the effort of the detour. And three stars is like, just go to go here. Even though it's in the middle of nowhere, or even though it's in a city that's far away from you, like get on a plane and go. That I think is the core of that is fantastic. The ideology behind that, I think, is, is really, really good. Now, the execution.

• 29:58Joe Flamm?

  Well.

• 30:02Adrienne Cheatham?

  Ding ding ding.

• 30:05Adrienne Cheatham?

  It's, it doesn't seem to be applied evenly. And, and then there's also, that's the one, two, and three star, because Michelin only goes up to three stars.

• 30:13Joe Flamm?

  Right.

• 30:14Adrienne Cheatham?

  New York Times goes up to four. Michelin only goes up to three stars. And some people don't realize that also. Um, but the interesting thing is that there's also a bib gourmand category. And this is where restaurants that are more casual, you know, I got a bib gourmand when we had opened Street Bird, Marcus Samuelson's fast casual restaurant. When I was exec chef, we got a bib gourmand there. Very exciting. Huge deal. It was a rotisserie chicken restaurant. You know, you rub them, brine them overnight. You love up on those chickens and you put them on the spit. And then some really well executed sides, good food for its category, and very well priced. So you could get a meal, you know, get a quarter of rotisserie chicken,

• 30:58Adrienne Cheatham?

  two sides, a cocktail at the bar, and you know, you're probably spending thirty something bucks, forty bucks with a drink. And that used to be the criteria for bib gourmand.

• 31:10Joe Flamm?

  Forty bucks, right? For two dishes and a glass of wine or dessert.

• 31:14Adrienne Cheatham?

  That's crazy. Where can you get anything for forty bucks now? As expensive as labor costs and food costs are, I can't find a restaurant where I can get two dishes and a beverage for forty bucks.

• 31:27Joe Flamm?

  No. It's, I mean, so it's like, I wonder about how that criteria has changed. And I think that's like, one of the things with like bib gourmand, I think, has gotten so muddled, because that was such a big thing. You know what I mean? When we opened Girl on the Goat, we got a bib gourmand. And I think they might still have one.

• 31:43Adrienne Cheatham?

  Yeah, I think they do.

• 31:44Joe Flamm?

  But, you know, and then when I was at like Urban Belly and Belly Q, we had bib gourmands there, because it was more casual and approachable. But then it's like, it almost, you know, like now it feels like, like, that category, it's, it's kind of like.

• 32:00Joe Flamm?

  You can't get that. Like what two plates? Like you could get two apps.

• 32:04Adrienne Cheatham?

  Right.

• 32:04Joe Flamm?

  And a glass of wine and even like at a reasonably priced, you know, restaurant like, you know, two toe I just opened is probably my most casual, right? And it's like, and I think the prices are extremely approachable. And it's like, you could get a salad, a pasta and a glass of wine for, for 40 bucks.

• 32:20Adrienne Cheatham?

  Wow.

• 32:20Joe Flamm?

  But you can't get like an entree.

• 32:23Adrienne Cheatham?

  Right. Yeah.

• 32:25Joe Flamm?

  Like I can't sell a piece of fish for $18 unless it's perch.

• 32:28Adrienne Cheatham?

  Yeah.

• 32:29Joe Flamm?

  And it's like. A piece of perch.

• 32:31Adrienne Cheatham?

  Yeah.

• 32:31Joe Flamm?

  You know what I mean? Like, here's a perch.

• 32:35Joe Flamm?

  You know.

• 32:35Adrienne Cheatham?

  No sauce, no garnish.

• 32:37Joe Flamm?

  Yeah, that's it. All you get is a fried piece of perch. You know what I mean? Like, don't even ask for hot sauce. You're paying extra.

• 32:43Adrienne Cheatham?

  Yeah, I mean, I think I'm looking it up. It looks like they had gone up to $49.

• 32:48Joe Flamm?

  No way.

• 32:48Adrienne Cheatham?

  However, many years ago, but now reading it, it seems like they kind of took the monetary part away. I'm not seeing that in the current criteria for bimbo man.

• 33:00Joe Flamm?

  But this is always the thing with Michelin, right? The cloak and dagger of it all. I think their biggest, you know, one of their biggest fails in the United States is that like it's, it's so hard here, right? Cause we're so big geographically. You know, I mean, this is something that started in France and then Italy and these European countries that are so much smaller. So they would drive all over them, go to these small towns, go to, you know, Lyon, go to, you know, like in Italy, I, I, I staged at a three Michelin star restaurant that was in a town of 33 people.

• 33:29Adrienne Cheatham?

  Oh my gosh.

• 33:30Joe Flamm?

  Like there's not a hotel in the town, like you can't even stay there.

• 33:34Adrienne Cheatham?

  Wow.

• 33:35Joe Flamm?

  And it, but it's a three Michelin star restaurant that's been there for a hundred years and it's in the middle of nowhere. So it's like, you're not going to have that here. Like there's a three Michelin star restaurants in like Napa in California. But it's like, it's not like you're going to be in like Southwest Illinois.

• 33:51Adrienne Cheatham?

  Right.

• 33:51Joe Flamm?

  You can't be, you know, 10 minutes outside of Effingham and be like, somebody's going to come down here and be like, this is a three Michelin star restaurant. That's 20 minutes away from the Kentucky border.

• 34:01Adrienne Cheatham?

  And Michelin doesn't just go all over the country. They're not just seeking out like a far fun. Far fun place like in Mississippi or.

• 34:08Joe Flamm?

  No, they are not just travelers. You know, along this road and deciding like, oh, this is what like we're the Lewis and Clark of culinary.

• 34:16Adrienne Cheatham?

  Right. The tourism board of any city or state has to invite and essentially pay from what I've heard.

• 34:25Adrienne Cheatham?

  For Michelin to enter that market.

• 34:28Joe Flamm?

  Yeah, no, it's, it's, it's all a marketing deal now, right?

• 34:30Adrienne Cheatham?

  Yeah.

• 34:31Joe Flamm?

  So it's like Florida coming in and being like, yeah, we'll give you a, a bag of cash to bring Michelin to this area.

• 34:36Adrienne Cheatham?

  It doesn't guarantee that you're going to get any Michelin stars, but it brings them to your market to review restaurants.

• 34:45Adrienne Cheatham?

  I see. See that look, okay.

• 34:48Joe Flamm?

  So you're telling me about, sure, it doesn't guarantee, but imagine you're Florida and you're like, here's a, you know, whatever, thirty million dollars. Michelin come to Florida and they're like, yeah, we came to Florida. It was cool. We had a great time. Weather was awesome. You know, Miami's wild, but like nothing's a Michelin star yet. Thanks for the money.

• 35:09Adrienne Cheatham?

  Right, right.

• 35:10Joe Flamm?

  Like, maybe they're not dropping, I'm not saying they're dropping any threes off the bat, because I feel like you saw that happen in a lot of cities. Like, I think like DC, when DC opened, didn't have any threes.

• 35:20Adrienne Cheatham?

  Yeah, exactly.

• 35:22Joe Flamm?

  And I don't know for the newer cities that have opened, like I haven't really looked at the Texas ones, because I know, I think Dallas is on there now. And maybe Austin, but I'm not sure.

• 35:31Adrienne Cheatham?

  Austin, is it Austin and Houston?

• 35:34Joe Flamm?

  Uh, I don't know if Houston's on it, but, but there's Texas cities on there. So I don't know how many threes are sitting out in the Texas universe, you know? So I think like, that's the thing you see, it's like, I don't feel like it doesn't guarantee stars. I said, I think it does guarantee stars, and I'm not saying those restaurants are not deserving. Um, I think it just doesn't guarantee, I just think they won't give you necessarily a three, unless they really feel like there's a three there. And I think the threes are the threes are the threes. I think they take that very, very seriously. And I would say that to the twos as well, but I just think like the biggest range of them is the ones. City to city, especially in the US, and I think country to country, it's very, very different as well.

• 36:14Joe Flamm?

  But like in the US, I think like the types of restaurant they look at in different cities is completely different.

• 36:21Adrienne Cheatham?

  And it's so inconsistent.

• 36:23Joe Flamm?

  Yeah, because like I've been to a one Michelin star restaurant in San Francisco that was like super casual and it was super good. And I thought it was like, you know, if you're saying truly the lore of it was, right? It's all about the food. That's what they always used to say. It's about the food. It's not about the service. It's not about the restaurant. It's about the food. It's just the food being that good. And if that's true, then this place was a one Michelin star restaurant. It was, I didn't have a bad bite. It was awesome. It was delicious. I loved it. But it was also like a casual borderline counter service place in like an almost mall.

• 36:55Adrienne Cheatham?

  Yeah, and that's not bib gourmand, but one star.

• 37:00Joe Flamm?

  And it was awesome. And I was like, that's fine. If that's a one star, that's okay. But it's, I was also like, in Chicago, there's no way that would happen.

• 37:08Adrienne Cheatham?

  Right.

• 37:08Joe Flamm?

  There are no casual one stars in Chicago.

• 37:10Adrienne Cheatham?

  Mm hmm.

• 37:11Joe Flamm?

  Pretty much everybody who's a one star in Chicago is a fine dining restaurant. You know what I mean? They offer a tasty menu, at least.

• 37:17Adrienne Cheatham?

  Exactly. I don't know. I have, I have a lot of issues and I have a lot of questions with the way Michelin does their thing. And it is so vague. So it's not like I know anybody involved in the process. It's not like I know exactly how they do things. But my issue with Michelin is it seems so Eurocentric. Like, I'm like, are they, are they racist or are they cuisinist? You know, it's because there are black chefs that have Michelin stars. There's four in the US. Maybe 10 total in the history of the Michelin guide around the rest of the world. So.

• 37:53Joe Flamm?

  Four?

• 37:53Adrienne Cheatham?

  I'm four in the US. Um, two from Chicago, Mariah Russell and Christian Hunter. Um, Charlie Mitchell in New York and.

• 38:02Joe Flamm?

  Both of them, but also, by the way.

• 38:04Adrienne Cheatham?

  In Orlando.

• 38:05Joe Flamm?

  Both of them are out.

• 38:07Adrienne Cheatham?

  Yeah. And Charlie left the restaurant Clover Hill where he got the Michelin star. He's now the Shepherd's Saga, which already had.

• 38:15Joe Flamm?

  Yeah.

• 38:15Adrienne Cheatham?

  You know, was Michelin rated. So.

• 38:17Joe Flamm?

  Yeah.

• 38:17Adrienne Cheatham?

  He's maintaining those stars, but Gerald Sombright in Orlando also left the restaurant that he was at shortly after getting a star. So.

• 38:26Joe Flamm?

  So it's like, listen. You can call it cuisinist, fine. However, what the fuck? Like, four?

• 38:37Adrienne Cheatham?

  Four, four.

• 38:38Joe Flamm?

  Four?

• 38:39Adrienne Cheatham?

  Four.

• 38:40Joe Flamm?

  Cause like the thing that doesn't make, and like, listen, I get that. It's like, you know. There aren't as many, you know, black chefs running restaurants. You know what I mean? And find out, you know what I mean? The numbers are not, you know, numbering there. That's fine, but there's not, not any.

• 38:58Adrienne Cheatham?

  Right, exactly. And that's where the disconnect is.

• 39:00Joe Flamm?

  Like the top, the 50 list.

• 39:02Adrienne Cheatham?

  Yeah, exactly. This is what gets me is I'm not saying, give anybody who is not producing excellent food, recognition just for the sake of it. However, Michelin, we can't say that it's not an economic driver for restaurant. They help put butts in seats. So by not recognizing certain cuisines, maybe the type of chef, but mainly the cuisine that they're doing, you're saying, we're not helping you stay open as a restaurant. We're actively handicapping the coverage that you get. And we're actively saying that we don't believe this type of cuisine is worthy of Michelin rating.

• 39:40Joe Flamm?

  What I've found at least, and I don't know, you tell me you feel different. Michelin in the States is a much less bigger deal. You know what I mean? Like if I go, you know, when I was running a Michelin star restaurant, I'm saying just for the average person.

• 39:53Adrienne Cheatham?

  Okay.

• 39:54Joe Flamm?

  You know what I mean? Like, I think they're much less familiar in the States with the guide, what it is.

• 39:59Adrienne Cheatham?

  Right.

• 40:00Joe Flamm?

  Whereas like when I went and staged in Italy and I told people like, oh, I ran a Michelin star restaurant, they're like, oh.

• 40:06Adrienne Cheatham?

  Yeah.

• 40:06Joe Flamm?

  Oh, wow. Wow. You guys must be really good. You know what I mean? Like it was a really, really big deal. So I think for the international community, and then you have a city like New York that is massively tourist base, international base, people from all over the world. So the guide is the epitome for international travel. It's the biggest thing. So if you're saying Tatiana and Kabawa.

• 40:30Adrienne Cheatham?

  Thank you.

• 40:31Joe Flamm?

  Aren't one Michelin star.

• 40:34Adrienne Cheatham?

  Thank you. Tatiana was the number one restaurant in New York by the New York Times, two years in a row, nothing for Michelin. Dakar in New Orleans, Dakar Nola, doing like fine dining technique with Senegalese cuisine. Number six on World's 50, nothing for Michelin. Kabawa racking up accolades left and right, nothing for Michelin. It's Caribbean, it's West African, and I'm not seeing the recognition for these types of cuisines. It's still, and the black chefs that did have Michelin stars were not cooking this type of cuisine. They were doing Japanese and Eurocentric more style.

• 41:10Joe Flamm?

  That's, that's true. So you could, you could, you could, you can make a case for cuisines, but

• 41:14Adrienne Cheatham?

  Yeah.

• 41:15Joe Flamm?

  This is what it invoked, which was, or made me think of was like Tatiana being number one. Remember when Noma was 50 best? They were number one in the world.

• 41:25Adrienne Cheatham?

  Yeah.

• 41:25Joe Flamm?

  Right? And they only had two Michelin stars. They didn't have three.

• 41:30Adrienne Cheatham?

  Right.

• 41:31Joe Flamm?

  Everybody lost their shit because they didn't have three. This restaurant doesn't even have one.

• 41:38Adrienne Cheatham?

  Right.

• 41:39Joe Flamm?

  These restaurants don't even have one. And it's like, how? Like, okay, I understand if you're like, this is a two, not a three. That gap is a measurable gap. You know what I mean?

• 41:48Adrienne Cheatham?

  Right.

• 41:48Joe Flamm?

  This checks some boxes for somebody that it doesn't check for you. I understand that. It's completely fucking objective.

• 41:55Adrienne Cheatham?

  Right.

• 41:56Joe Flamm?

  But we have a three star gap.

• 42:00Adrienne Cheatham?

  Yeah, that's wild. It, it, it makes, makes sense. Make it make sense because it makes no sense to me. We need to find somebody from Michelin to come on the show and clear this up because I

• 42:10Joe Flamm?

  We have to like kidnap them. We'd need like, you know what I mean? We need like some, you know, like Romanian gangsters in a white van to like go to France and like find us somebody taken style and be like, find us an inspector. You know, like put them in a black hood and ask them questions on the

• 42:24Adrienne Cheatham?

  Oh my God.

• 42:25Joe Flamm?

  But that's hard to say. There's no one, there's no one to ask.

• 42:28Adrienne Cheatham?

  Right, exactly.

• 42:29Joe Flamm?

  You know what I mean? It's, you're just throwing, you know, it's like, you might as well just go yell into the sky and be like, why is it this way? Like, there's enough, there's enough.

• 42:37Adrienne Cheatham?

  Yeah, you're never gonna get anything.

• 42:40Joe Flamm?

  That's like, I think, like the, you know, it's like the allure of Michelin per se, but also like the infuriating thing is like, you don't really need to have accountability if nobody knows who the fuck you are.

• 42:50Adrienne Cheatham?

  Right, exactly.

• 42:51Joe Flamm?

  It's a borderline secret society.

• 42:54Adrienne Cheatham?

  Joe, let's take it to the walk-in. And I think you're up this week for a walk-in confession. It's a new year, let's get some old stories. Shake it off, shake off the burden from the previous years.

• 43:06Joe Flamm?

  You know, I don't know if this is much of a confession, but so the first year, I'd never worked in Michelin star restaurants until I went and worked at Spiajo. And I started there as a sous chef. And then after a year, I took over as chef. And at the time, we were one Michelin star. And talking about cuisine, it's the weird thing. Spiajo is the only Michelin star Italian restaurant that's ever existed in the city of Chicago.

• 43:32Adrienne Cheatham?

  Wow.

• 43:33Joe Flamm?

  There was not one before, there's not been one since.

• 43:36Adrienne Cheatham?

  Wow.

• 43:37Joe Flamm?

  Right? So it was a big deal. So I take over the first year and leading up to it, they usually come out in October here. So you're just like, oh my God, oh my God, oh my God. Like, you know, and I'm following big footsteps.

• 43:50Adrienne Cheatham?

  You can't be the guy that loses it.

• 43:51Joe Flamm?

  Missy was there before me. I'm like, yeah. I'm like, this has been a crazy year. Like, what if something happens? And the way, you know, as you know, but people might not know, the way you find out if you retain your star is that there's the day and they just start calling people. And they call and say, congratulations, you have retained your Michelin star. The way you find out you did not retain your Michelin star is you just don't get a fucking phone call.

• 44:18Adrienne Cheatham?

  Oh, gosh.

• 44:19Joe Flamm?

  They just ghost you. So it's 2016 and they have to call Tony. So I remember like that morning I get up and at that time, like what they would do, they would call. And then right after they called the chef, they would tweet up. They'd be like, congratulations, Adrian, you know, uh, La Bernard had three stars. And so, you know, everybody would be following the Michelin sort of guy. So I like, I get up that morning, I'm up early and I remember I was home that day for some reason. So I'm just like walking around the apartment. It's like 9:00 AM, it's 10:00 AM. I'm like texting Tony, I'm like, hey, good morning chef. Have you heard anything yet? Anything? And he's like, no, I haven't heard anything yet. And I'm like, okay.

• 45:00Joe Flamm?

  So I'm like, that's all right. It's early. It's early. They probably call the threes first. It's probably in descending order, the threes, then the chews, then the ones. There's a good amount of ones. That's a lot of phone calls to make. Then, you know, they probably talk to them a little bit. They're not rushing them. They're not just like, hey, you got one click. You know what I mean? Uh, Seba.

• 45:16Adrienne Cheatham?

  She really thought I was cute. She's gonna call. She's gonna call. She liked me.

• 45:20Joe Flamm?

  So now it's like noon. I'm like, literally, I remember I was in my old apartment. I'm just, I am pacing. I am just pacing through the place, back and forth, back and forth. And I'm like, like, just like shaking my head and walking through the apartment. I'm like, oh my God, oh my God. And like, I'm texting Tony. I'm like, I finally call him. I'm like, chef, what's going on? Have you heard anything? He's like, I haven't heard anything. He's like, it's fine, Joe. Don't worry about it. It's like, this is all I'm worried about.

• 45:47Adrienne Cheatham?

  Yeah.

• 45:48Joe Flamm?

  Like, I'm like, I just like, you know, I'm going on the porch. I'm like, like shade smoking cigarettes. I'm like, losing my mind. Finally, it's like, it's one o'clock. It's one in the afternoon. We're ready in the afternoon. I'm checking Twitter. There's nothing. Nothing's on Twitter. They haven't announced anything. I haven't. So I'm like, all right, I haven't seen anybody come out. So I haven't heard anything from anybody. Nobody said like, I haven't seen any chefs post anything. So I'm like, what is going on? This is so weird. So finally I just get in the car. I'm like, I just need to leave. So I just started driving. I was just driving. I just like took a left on California and started driving north. And I was like, I don't, I don't know what to do. And it was like, finally like,

• 46:30Joe Flamm?

  fucking 2:30 in the afternoon, Michelin tweets out. It was 2016 in October. So you weren't living in Chicago at the time, Adrian, but we, but you might not remember what was going on is the stupid fucking Cubs were making a World Series run. And the night before, the Cubs game went into extra innings, went late, went to like 1:30 in the morning. So the Michelin guide of Chicago tweets out, late Cubs game last night. So we're just getting around to start making phone calls.

• 46:59Adrienne Cheatham?

  No, no. Are you kidding me? The Michelin guide was late because of the Cubs game the night before?

• 47:06Joe Flamm?

  So I am like, you have got to be fucking. Shit.

• 47:11Adrienne Cheatham?

  You've had me like, ready to vomit in tension and anger.

• 47:15Joe Flamm?

  Oh, my God. Oh, my God.

• 47:16Adrienne Cheatham?

  Because you had a bender at the Cubs game?

• 47:17Joe Flamm?

  Right. I'm driving around in circles, thinking like, if they don't call, I'm just gonna keep driving forever to the ocean.

• 47:23Adrienne Cheatham?

  That's a career ender if you lose it.

• 47:25Joe Flamm?

  And then so finally, like, 3 o'clock, like, Tony calls me. I remember I'm in the car. I like, pulled the car over the side of the road. I'm like, chef. He's like, congratulations, chef. He's like, you have retained your one star. And I was like,

• 47:42Joe Flamm?

  I was like, oh, my God. Oh, my God. Oh, my God.

• 47:45Adrienne Cheatham?

  Geez.

• 47:46Joe Flamm?

  Oh, I was like, holy shit. I remember I call, I called Brian, who was my, uh, my, my number two at the time. And I was like, dude, we, we did it. We're good.

• 47:56Adrienne Cheatham?

  Oh, that's awesome.

• 47:57Joe Flamm?

  Call all the cooks. Call everybody. I was like, we're going to Stella's tonight. I was like, we're burning it down. But yeah, it was like, it was the worst feeling. It was the worst feeling. It was just like,

• 48:09Adrienne Cheatham?

  I can't even imagine how stressful that had to be.

• 48:12Joe Flamm?

  Oh, man. I never want to feel that way. In the years after, like, I felt better about it and I felt more confident in what we were doing, but it was the first year and I didn't know. And, you know, they called us so late and I, I just, you know what I mean? Like, this was my first time ever as a chef de cuisine.

• 48:28Adrienne Cheatham?

  Right.

• 48:29Joe Flamm?

  I, I was.

• 48:30Adrienne Cheatham?

  That's a lot of pressure.

• 48:31Joe Flamm?

  I was terrified. But yeah, so, end of the day.

• 48:36Adrienne Cheatham?

  Wild.

• 48:36Joe Flamm?

  The star. And that was, that was my first baptism by fire into Michelin age.

• 48:42Adrienne Cheatham?

  That's a huge deal, Joe, and you did it. Way to go.

• 48:45Joe Flamm?

  Don't need to do that anytime again soon.

• 48:48Adrienne Cheatham?

  That's a wrap for this week of The Chef's Cut. Be sure to subscribe wherever you're listening, especially if you're watching us on YouTube, where you can find full-length video of every episode of the show. And be sure to follow us at Chef's Cut Pod on IG. On behalf of Joe Flamm, I'm Adrian Cheatham, and this has been The Chef's Cut: Life Beyond the Pass.