Milli Vanilli: Girl You Know It’s (Not) True | 231

When news broke that Milli Vanilli were lip-syncing frauds, it was a defining moment in pop-culture. Forty years later, their name is still synonymous with fakery. But Rob and Fab weren’t the masterminds. Behind them was a Svengali producer named Frank Farian, who’d built his entire career on a simple formula: recruit talented artists to make the music, then cast beautiful people to sell it. But when the truth came out, Rob and Fab took the fall – while their puppet master walked away clean. See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Sarah Hagi?

  Audible subscribers can listen to all our episodes of Scamfluencers ad-free right now. Join Audible today by downloading the Audible app.

• 0:08Scaachi Koul?

  A note to our listeners. This episode contains descriptions of drug abuse. Listen with care.

• 0:21Scaachi Koul?

  Sarah, what do you remember from Ashley Simpson's lip syncing scandal? Which I know you remember because we are good little millennials.

• 0:30Sarah Hagi?

  You know what? I was watching it on live television when it happened. And I was so confused. I was like, did they play something wrong? It was hard to know what was happening at the exact moment until afterwards, because also, no internet in that way, no social media. It was like, wait, was she lip syncing? And then all the entertainment outlets later on, you know, became this huge story and basically tanked her career?

• 0:51Scaachi Koul?

  Yeah. I gotta tell you, I think in real time, all I remembered was like the little dance she did, like that hoedown. What was that?

• 1:00Sarah Hagi?

  It was a girl who was very embarrassed. And the sad part is, she wouldn't have gotten in trouble for that today. People do that all the time, you know? Well, funny you should say that, Sarah,

• 1:10Scaachi Koul?

  because today, we're going to talk about one of the most famous and devastating cases of lip syncing. Everyone thought the bad guys are the ones pretending to sing onstage, but the real villain was behind the curtain.

• 1:29Scaachi Koul?

  It's a muggy night in July, 1989. At an amusement park in Bristol, Connecticut, a huge crowd gathers around the main stage. Spotlights hit a giant MTV logo. This is Club MTV, a new televised concert touring around the United States. It's hosted by downtown Julie Brown, the stylish British VJ. And onstage, two beautiful men with dancers' physiques and long flowing braids are sweating to the beat. They are Rob Pelletis and Febreze Morvahn, better known as Milli Vanilli. Rob and Fab are here to perform their big hit single, "Girl, You Know It's True", which recently hit number two on the Billboard Top 100. It's the song that put them on the map.

• 2:14Scaachi Koul?

  The guys are bouncing around in spandex shorts and high-top sneakers, and 15,000 people are singing along until the unthinkable happens. The chorus starts repeating.

• 2:32Scaachi Koul?

  Slowly, it dawns on the audience. Either they're stuck in a time warp, or Milli Vanilli isn't singing live.

• 2:40Sarah Hagi?

  This is a worst nightmare scenario. I mean, imagine being on that stage and like, oh crap.

• 2:48Scaachi Koul?

  There's nothing they can do. Rob looks over at Fab, who's trying to play it cool. He's dancing to the skipping vocal track like it's a new remix. But Rob is fully panicking, and after a minute, he bolts offstage. Fab follows, and VJ Julie Brown runs after them. Having a backing vocal track isn't unusual for live performances. In fact, Rob knows that several other bands have been performing to tape on this very tour. But Rob and Fab are carrying a dark secret the other acts aren't. The skipping track isn't just evidence they aren't singing live tonight, it's proof that they don't sing their songs at all, ever. It isn't by choice.

• 3:31Scaachi Koul?

  Rob would love to let loose and belt the song out using his real voice. But back in Germany, a secretive, middle-aged white producer is pulling the strings, forcing them to lie. By now, millions of dollars have been spent on them, by the record label, and their fans, to make them a success. There's a lot riding on Rob and Fab continuing to lip sync. Finally, Julie is able to calm Rob down backstage. The playback issues get resolved, and the show goes on. But the anger and shame roiling in Rob's stomach doesn't go away. He knows it's only a matter of time before their ugly secret is found out. The only question is, how bad the fallout will be.

• 4:17Speaker 15

  This message is brought to you by Apple Card. Ah, fall. That cozy season where we swap the swimwear for sweaters and sunnies for scarves. But before the Halloween decorations are put away, or Thanksgiving table has been set, there's already holly jolly music playing in the grocery store, reminding you that the year is coming to a close. Time to kick end of year into high gear. When you use Apple Card with Apple Pay, you earn 2% daily cash back on all purchases, including food, decorations, gifts, and more. Get a head start on your end-of-year purchases. Apply for your Apple Card in the Wallet app on your iPhone today and start using it right away with Apple Pay. Subject to credit approval. Apple Card is issued by Goldman Sachs Bank USA Salt Lake City Branch. Terms and more at applecard.com.

• 5:03Speaker 03

  I'm Candace DeLong, host of the podcast Killer Psyche. In our latest episode, we go inside the case of Lindsey Clancy, the postpartum psychosis defense, and the stunning mistrial that just reignited a national debate. Listen to Killer Psyche on Audible or wherever you get your podcasts.

• 5:25Scaachi Koul?

  From Audible, I'm Sachi Cole. And I'm Sarah Hagee. And this is Scamfluencers.

• 5:39Scaachi Koul?

  When news broke that Milli Vanilli, the iconic 80s pop duo, were lip syncing frauds, it was a defining pop culture moment. Even 40 years later, the group's name is still synonymous with fakery. But the real story behind Milli Vanilli is much darker and more complicated, because behind these gorgeous frauds is a Svengali who built his career by recruiting talented artists to play music in the studio, then casting hot people to present that music in public. This producer, Frank Farian, granted Rob and Fab's wish to be world-famous pop stars. But when that monkey's paw curls, the duo won't be able to blame it on the rain or on their puppet master,

• 6:20Sarah Hagi?

  because he let them be the face of the music and the face of the downfall.

• 6:25Scaachi Koul?

  This is Milli Vanilli, "Girl, You Know It's Not True."

• 6:33Scaachi Koul?

  It's 1960 in West Germany. 19-year-old Franz Reuter is singing in a tiny nightclub. Franz has sleepy eyes and soft reddish brown hair, and he's performing for a crowd of American soldiers stationed at a base nearby. Franz was born in 1941 during the chaos of World War II. His mom was a schoolteacher who played piano. His dad was a furrier and leather worker before becoming a German soldier. He died when his unit invaded the USSR. Once his dad dies, Franz's mom was left to raise him and his two siblings alone. After the war, Germany was divided in half, and Franz's family wound up on the western side of the Iron Curtain. They lived near bases full of American soldiers,

• 7:16Scaachi Koul?

  and Franz fell in love with their music. Otis Redding, Sam Cooke, and Little Richard. He started performing black American soul music for the troops, who always ate it up. As soon as Franz gets old enough, he sets out to make his mark on music. In 1964, at the age of 23, he becomes a bandleader and starts going by Frankie or Frank to sound more American. He performs soul music covers in Germany and even gets a record deal. Sarah, can you please describe the cover art for Franz's first album?

• 7:49Sarah Hagi?

  Yes. Um, okay, this is gonna be hard to describe, so... Oh, but try. So it's like tinted all red, and it says Frankie Farian. And the title of the album is "Shouting Ghost." And the image is a young Frankie in a shiny suit with a microphone. He's surrounded by his band, okay? But here's where it gets crazy. Everyone in his band is in a suit and wearing a hood that looks an awfully lot like Klansmen hoods. Now, are they in the Klan? I don't know. He says he loves black music, so let's hope not.

• 8:27Scaachi Koul?

  Well, I was gonna say, I mean, for a guy who claims to love black American artists, it is pretty wild to dress his backing band like a bunch of extras from Mississippi Burning. Frank clearly has a warped understanding of race, especially blackness. Throughout the mid-'60s, Frank puts out a few singles with his band, doing a sort of German-American mashup. But he never really breaks through as a singer. He'll later claim it's because German record labels think his soulful vocals don't match his Aryan youth exterior. According to Frank, the record labels encourage him to stick to German music. But Frank is not about that Oktoberfest life. He wants to make the American music he loves, even if he can't be the face of it.

• 9:12Scaachi Koul?

  So, in the '70s, Frank shifts his focus from the stage to the sound booth. If he can't be a pop star, he's going to become the guy who makes pop stars and controls their every move.

• 9:26Scaachi Koul?

  It's 1974 in Germany. 33-year-old Frank is in the sound booth, putting the finishing touches on a dance track. We've entered the disco era, so it's got a funky bassline and a killer beat. And now, Frank just needs to add the vocals. He claps on his huge studio headphones, clears his throat, and lets out his best falsetto before shifting into a growly baritone. The end result is a new single called "Baby, Do You Wanna Bump." Frank spent the past decade establishing himself as a musician and producer, but he's not exactly a household name. So when it's time to release his track in 1975, he credits himself only as "the producer."

• 10:09Scaachi Koul?

  He says the song is by a promising new group called Boney M.

• 10:15Scaachi Koul?

  Baby "D Wanna Bump" hits the airwaves and starts climbing the local charts. Frank knows he can juice this success with live performances and TV appearances, but to do that, he needs to find a real group of people to represent Bony M in person. So he hires a talent agency and puts out a casting call. The agency scours Germany, looking for people who fit Frank's preferred look. Model gorgeous Afro-Caribbean performers with stage presence and charisma. The one thing these talent scouts don't care about is whether they can sing, because they'll just be lip syncing to Frank's track. We should say Frank didn't invent this scheme. It's an open secret that bands like The Village People and The Monkees did this too.

• 10:58Scaachi Koul?

  But Frank's version is particularly bold, because he literally sang and played all the parts himself. Eventually, Frank finds his perfect lineup. The Bony M members have spangly costumes, fluid choreography, and, as black performers, they stand out in the mostly white Euro disco scene. They're exactly what Frank pictured when he was all alone in his studio, singing all the parts himself. Frank records more songs, but even though some of his new recruits are singers themselves, he insists on keeping his own voice in the mix. He doesn't even try to treat the members of Bony M as artists. He treats them like props, because to him, that's all they are.

• 11:41Scaachi Koul?

  The band members reportedly don't love this arrangement, but Frank is hard to stand up to, especially once fame takes over. In 1976, Bony M puts out their first LP and becomes a worldwide phenomenon. Maybe you've heard one of their biggest hits, "Rasputin"? It's all about a shadowy, behind-the-scenes figure, so ride on, theme.

• 12:02Sarah Hagi?

  Yes, I mean, I don't think there's anyone on Earth who hasn't heard this song. I remember when we were learning about Rasputin in history class, my history teacher playing the song, and being like, "You know what? It goes off." It bangs. That song goes on, everyone is dancing, I do not care. You know what? He could write at least one hit so far.

• 12:23Scaachi Koul?

  Well, Sarah, the group ends up selling more than 100 million records over the course of their career, and Frank becomes a big name in the music industry. But eventually, the disco craze fizzles, and Frank starts hunting for his next big project: the perfect-looking global superstars, voices entirely optional. It's 1985, and in Los Angeles, a young French dancer named Fabrice Morvan steps from the breezy California night into a sweaty disco, where a dance seminar is underway. Fabrice, or Fab, has come a long way to be here. Fab is 19, beautiful, and hungry for life.

• 13:05Scaachi Koul?

  He grew up mostly in Paris, and from a young age, sought a way out from his dysfunctional family. So last year, he moved to Munich, Germany, to pursue dance, first as therapy, and then as a potential career. But so far, Munich has been tough. With no money and a shaky grasp of German, Fab had to spend a couple of weeks sleeping in the train station. Eventually, Fab found work as a dance instructor, which opened up new opportunities, like this trip to LA for a dance seminar. As Fab makes his way towards the club stage, he spies a handsome, light-skinned breakdancer with green eyes. The dancer is graceful and joyful, twirling on one knee and flashing a smile.

• 13:47Scaachi Koul?

  After the performance, Fab introduces himself and learns the dancer is named Rob Pelletis. The two start talking and discover that they have a lot in common, like the fact that they both live in Munich and are both obsessed with the city's fledgling underground club scene.

• 14:03Sarah Hagi?

  I feel like we probably can't appreciate how rare this must have felt. Like, how many black guys that age would be in Germany in the club scene, both really serious about breakdancing, like, just totally aligned? I feel like you just kind of have to be that person's best friend.

• 14:20Scaachi Koul?

  Yeah, and once they return home, they do indeed become fast friends. Rob opens up to Fab about his childhood. He was born in New York, but his parents sent him off to a German orphanage. At the age of four, he was adopted by a white couple living in Munich. Fab learns that Rob was bullied at school for his skin color and beaten at home for the slightest mistakes. He found his escape through breakdancing, and says his life always felt lonely, just like Fab's. Now that Rob and Fab have each other, their futures start coming into focus, and they both see dancing as their launchpad to international pop superstardom. This is how stars like Madonna got famous: by dancing in clubs and partying with the right people. Why couldn't it happen to them?

• 15:05Scaachi Koul?

  They move in together in an attic in one of Munich's housing projects. They model for catalogs by day, and at night, they throw big parties around the city where they hold court as dancers, singers, and MCs. The party circuit gives them visibility, and they become backup dancers for Germany's version of MTV. Fab and Rob realize that if they want to become famous, they need a signature look. After all, this is the 80s, the dawn of the music video. Music doesn't just have to sound good, now it has to look good too. Cue the makeover montage. Rob and Fab each get their hair done in long, distinctive locks and braids. They also develop a consistent dress code: oversized berets, and even more oversized

• 15:49Scaachi Koul?

  headbands, black spandex pants, and shoulder padded jackets with cropped military cuts. Sarah, here's a picture of Rob and Fab from around 1986. Can you describe it?

• 16:00Sarah Hagi?

  Yeah, okay, oftentimes when you see, like, photos of stylish people from the 80s, you're like, "Oh yeah, I could see people dressing like this all the time." But I do think this is a very unique, to this time period, look. They're with two other people, and they just have big hair. It looks like they're all wearing, like, four shirts, you know? It's a shirt convention. It's just like a very artsy kind of dancer look, in my opinion, of that time. And they're, of course, very handsome.

• 16:28Scaachi Koul?

  Yeah, listen, they got the look, and so now, Fab and Rob just need to make music. So in 1987, they form a pop group with some local musicians called Empire Bazaar. The sound is synth-pop, Eurodance, and high energy. They start circulating their demos and land a few gigs at the top clubs in Munich. Fab feels like everything is moving in the right direction. And then, one day, a friend tells them that someone wants to meet them: a big-time producer who caught their most recent show, Frank Farian. By now, Frank isn't just known for Bony M, he's produced tracks for artists like Meatloaf too. This could be their big break. So Fab and Rob make plans to meet the man who has the potential to change their lives,

• 17:13Scaachi Koul?

  for better and for worse. It's 1988, just after New Year's, in the countryside outside Frankfurt. Rob is nearly vibrating with excitement. He and Fab are getting ready to audition for Frank at his huge recording complex, FAR Studios. Rob can see Fab is nervous, so he gives his friend a reassuring nod. They're greeted by a woman with curly red hair, Ingrid Seget, Frank's girlfriend and office manager. Rob knows he and Fab are small potatoes in Frank's world. Their only single sold a few thousand copies. He thinks they'll be lucky to do some backing vocals, but Ingrid tells them Frank has a special project they might be a fit for. Rob's hopes soar.

• 17:58Scaachi Koul?

  He and Fab have been living gig to gig, and maintaining their fashionista wardrobes and hair extensions is not cheap. They crave fame, but they need cash. Then, they meet Frank himself. Frank is now in his mid-40s, with sandy, permed hair that grazes his shoulders and a smile that doesn't quite reach his eyes. They sit around the long table in the studio's kitchen, and Ingrid places a contract in front of the young men. Frank offers Rob and Fab 1,500 Deutschmarks as an advance, about $6,500 today, and he says that he even has a name picked out for the new group: Milli Vanilli.

• 18:36Sarah Hagi?

  You know what? It rhymes, it rolls off the tongue, and you can picture one as Milli and the other as Vanilli.

• 18:45Scaachi Koul?

  You kind of can see it, can't you?

• 18:46Sarah Hagi?

  I can see it completely, and you got to hand it to him, like, he knows how to do it. Frank can figure it out.

• 18:53Scaachi Koul?

  Well, the name is good, but there are some other issues. The two guys don't have a lawyer or an agent with them to decipher the contract, which isn't even in Fab's first language. They are at Frank's mercy, but Rob sees this as an easy choice. Frank has the power to make their dreams come true. Whatever this stack of paper says, they're signing it. As the ink dries, Ingrid brings in champagne. Everybody toasts. Rob beams as Ingrid snaps a photo. Then Frank leans in, locking eyes with Rob, and in a low voice that may or may not be joking, he says, "Don't ever fuck with me."

• 19:34Sarah Hagi?

  This is like, straight out of one of those music biopics where you know the manager's gonna totally fuck them over.

• 19:43Scaachi Koul?

  Yeah, and Rob does register that this might be a threat, but it's a happy day, so he just takes another sip of champagne.

• 19:54Scaachi Koul?

  And then they wait. Rob and Fab bide their time, hitting up clubs and promoting their one single. But Frank doesn't surface for months, except to float them a little cash when they need it. He never says a word about when they're supposed to record. And then, finally, around April in 1988, they get a phone call from Ingrid. It's time to come to the studio. Rob and Fab enter Frank's dimly lit recording booth. A track starts playing. Frank introduces it as the next big hit, "Girl, You Know It's True." Rob can't believe his ears. It sounds so professional. He can already picture himself onstage with Fab, singing their hearts out.

• 20:36Scaachi Koul?

  But then, two male vocalists come in on the track, one rapper and one singer. The guys turn to each other, and Rob, heart racing, asks Frank, "When will our recording session begin?" Frank's eyes flash. He pulls Rob aside. "Didn't he read his contract?" Rob's stomach churns. He thinks he knows what's going on now. Frank storms out of the booth, and Rob is left to break the news to a wide-eyed Fab. "They don't want us to sing on this record." They go to Ingrid, explaining that there's been some terrible mistake. According to Fab, Ingrid reminds them that they've already been paid. Do they want to give that money back?

• 21:19Scaachi Koul?

  Frank has covered around $5,000 worth of their bills so far. If they quit now, they won't just be broke again, they'll be in debt to Frank. And their lifeline to the music industry will be gone forever.

• 21:33Sarah Hagi?

  Oh, I really do feel so bad for these guys. You know, if we're comparing it to other boy bands or kind of things that were in predatory contracts, it's like, there was still a moment of good before they realized how bad things were, but these guys are just going into it knowing that they'll have to keep a lie up in front of who knows how many people, soon the world.

• 21:54Scaachi Koul?

  Yeah, I mean, this might be the most heartbreaking example of why we always say, "Never make a handshake agreement and always read the contract." Unfortunately for Rob and Fab, they've signed a deal where Frank can make them stars while controlling their every move. And they'll soon learn that success doesn't always lead to power. Sometimes it leads even deeper into a trap.

• 22:21Speaker 16

  Journalist Tristan Redmond goes where no son-in-law should ever go. Deep into his wife's family history, digging up the cold case of who murdered her great-grandmother. Because, I should mention, he thinks the murderer might actually be the beloved family patriarch. For the best binge-watch series like Ghost Story, listen to the Audible True Crime Podcast wherever you get your podcasts.

• 22:41Speaker 14

  I'm Gemma Whelan, and in the new season of The Spy Who, we tell the story of the original femme fatale, the spy who was Mata Hari. A famous dancer turned World War I secret agent, accused of seducing Allied officers to uncover their plans. But was she a temptress or a scapegoat for French failures? Follow The Spy Who now, wherever you listen to podcasts. You can also listen to the full season of The Spy Who Was Mata Hari, early and ad-free on Audible.

• 23:20Scaachi Koul?

  It's the fall of 1988 in London, and Rob and Fab are in a bathtub. They're posing for Bravo, a German teen magazine, basically a Bavarian tiger beat. A photographer has come to their fancy new apartment to film the stars in their ivory tub, which features gold fixtures and jacuzzi jets. Fame hit quickly for Rob and Fab, thanks to their new hit single, "Girl, You Know It's True." The song started rocketing up the German charts after its debut in early July. Within two months, it hit number one. And suddenly, Rob and Fab's faces were everywhere, and they were sent out on a nonstop press tour, featuring live performances at outdoor concerts and TV shows all over Europe.

• 24:05Scaachi Koul?

  But "live" is in quotes, because of course, the singing is never live. Rob and Fab are selling the music with their dancing and their looks. And people are obsessed with their looks. The hair, the headbands, the abs. As former models, Rob and Fab are nailing this part, doing lots of over-the-top photo shoots like this one in the bathtub. It seems like Frank's instincts were right. In the music video era, being ridiculously good-looking does seem to be just as important as being talented.

• 24:38Sarah Hagi?

  You know, it's hard to argue Frank's point and instincts, because, yeah, this was a different era of music where, like, looking a certain way because your music video will be playing nonstop is almost the most important thing. And do people really care about the vocal talents of a boy band? I don't know. I don't think so. So I could see how this could be pretty easily rationalized, to be honest.

• 25:03Scaachi Koul?

  Yeah, and at times, the whirlwind journey has been kind of fun. But the fun has come with a price. Rob and Fab live in fear of being revealed as fakes. But on the other hand, they started with nothing, and now they're touring Europe, performing to thousands of screaming fans. Rob feels like they should at least try to enjoy it. But even as their star is rising, their producer is pushing for more. Despite the risks, Frank is plotting out an entire Milli Vanilli album, which means the lie Rob and Fab are telling isn't winding down. It's just getting started.

• 25:42Scaachi Koul?

  It's late 1988 in Germany, and Frank is sipping a coffee in Farr Studios' kitchen. Today, he's sitting with another artist, a rapper from Houston named Charles Shaw. And Frank is about to fire him. Months earlier, Frank hired Charles to do the rap vocals for "Girl, You Know It's True." Charles is talented, but no one's asking him to pose half-naked in a tub. And Frank has been careful to keep him away from the spotlight. Throughout the summer of 1988, as Rob and Fab promoted the single in Europe, Frank was in his studio working on the full album. He brought back the same session musicians he'd used on "Girl," which was going to include Charles. But Frank heard whispers that Charles was bragging about being the voice of Milli Vanilli.

• 26:27Scaachi Koul?

  He doesn't have proof, but even rumors can undo a good scam. So now, Charles is out, and Frank hires a new vocalist, who has to enter Farr Studios through the back door and record late at night so no one will see.

• 26:44Sarah Hagi?

  The thing is, like, as much as what Frank is doing technically works, there are so many moving parts, as in people who are doing work behind the scenes. It's a very delicate balancing act, because, yeah, one person bragging could upend this all.

• 27:01Scaachi Koul?

  Exactly. Frank's paranoia is growing, because runaway fame is complicating his scheme. Faking a disco act in the '70s was one thing, but Rob and Fab are teen heartthrobs in the '80s with way more exposure. Every new Milli Vanilli appearance comes with the risk of being discovered and having all those obsessed fans turn on them. But Frank is not interested in playing it safe. In November 1988, Frank drops the full Milli Vanilli LP in Europe. It's released by a German label owned by parent company BMG. And even if you haven't heard of BMG, you've probably heard of another label they own in the US, Arista Records.

• 27:42Scaachi Koul?

  Frank's new plan is his most ambitious yet, bringing Milli Vanilli to America. But that means that the spotlight shining on his fraud is about to get a lot brighter. It's January 1989. In the New York offices of Arista Records, founder and president Clive Davis is hosting his weekly luncheon. This is where Clive gathers senior executives and goes through all the new records Arista plans to release. And Clive is excited about the one he's going to play for the VPs today, a hot new German act called Milli Vanilli. Clive Davis is in his 50s, with sun-weathered skin and distinctive amber glasses.

• 28:23Scaachi Koul?

  This legendary music producer and star maker has given dozens of artists their big breaks, including Whitney Houston, Barry Manilow, Bruce Springsteen, and Pink Floyd. And he thinks Milli Vanilli has all the makings of a star act. Frank has been pestering Clive to distribute Milli Vanilli's album in the US. But Clive thinks the album needs another surefire single or two before it's ready for an American debut. So he hires acclaimed songwriter Diane Warren to deliver a new hit. And she happens to be working on a song that seems perfect, "Blame It on the Rain." Clive puts her in touch with Frank so that she can start working with Rob and Fab. After all, the relationship between songwriter and vocalist is intimate.

• 29:06Scaachi Koul?

  They'll often collaborate to tailor the song to the artist's voice. But Frank won't allow Diane, or anyone from Arista, anywhere near his studio. He tells her to send him the sheet music and says that he will deliver the tracks.

• 29:22Scaachi Koul?

  Of course, we know the reason Frank is being so secretive. And while Clive and the other execs at Arista think it's strange, they have no reason not to trust Frank. He delivered for them before on the album he produced for Meatloaf. Why would they question him now? In March 1989, the US version of Milli Vanilli's album is released, and it instantly catches fire. "Blame It on the Rain" hits number one on the singles charts. The album spends seven weeks in Billboard's number one spot and goes six times platinum in the US. It eventually sells 10 million copies. Rob and Fab move to the States and sign with Gallin Morry Associates, a high-powered Hollywood agency. The agency sets them up in a Beverly Hills mansion

• 30:06Scaachi Koul?

  full of brand-new furniture. Rob and Fab ease into a lifestyle of limos, ladies, and drugs. To be clear, the West Urban Club and house party scene wasn't exactly sober. But once the guys land in Hollywood, surrounded by luxury and living on the label's dime, there are no limits, and they act accordingly. But the bigger Milli Vanilli gets, the more Clive and Arista start to notice some inconsistencies. Because the guys have been doing interviews, and they do not sound like they do on their record. Here's Rob in a TV interview talking about fame.

• 30:44Speaker 08

  Superstar, you know, it's a very dangerous thing to talk about. I know a lot of superstars.

• 30:51Sarah Hagi?

  You know, obviously, in hindsight, you hear this and you think, there's no way that guy was singing these songs with a perfect American accent. But also, it's possible. People learn how to sing phonetically often. You know, people change their accents for different types of music. It's not that crazy, even though it is weird as hell, because they do not sound anything like the recordings.

• 31:14Scaachi Koul?

  Yeah, I mean, the accent thing isn't enough. But then, one Arista employee visits the set of their music video and notices that Rob seems to be struggling with his lines. How could someone sing English so well but barely speak it? And then, in July 1989, there's a Club MTV tour and the infamous moment where their vocal track starts skipping. This is the moment from the beginning of the episode, and it brings the swirling industry rumors into focus. Internally, it's tough for Arista to ignore the obvious. Something is fishy about Milli Vanilli.

• 31:52Sarah Hagi?

  If people at Arista are thinking, truly, there's something off, there's just no benefit into rocking the boat at this point. They're getting away with it. They're making a crazy amount of money. Why not just, like, ride the Milli Vanilli wave as long as it lasts?

• 32:08Scaachi Koul?

  Yeah, and incredibly, the Club MTV gap also doesn't slow down sales of the album. So no one, including Clive, has any reason to rock the boat. Plus, Clive knows better than anyone that fame is fickle. For now, they can sit back and watch as Rob and Fab break in the cash and let the fandom and fame play out. People will move on soon enough. But thanks to a rogue junior talent agent, this will soon prove impossible. Because Milli Vanilli is about to win a Grammy.

• 32:45Scaachi Koul?

  It's January 1990 in Los Angeles at the 32nd Grammy Awards. The show is always the most high-pressure night of Ken Erlich's year. Ken is a round, grizzled man who's been producing the Grammys for the past decade. And his rule is simple: everyone sings live. He's made a few rare exceptions over the years for legends with demanding dance numbers, like Janet Jackson. But tonight, against his better judgment, he's agreed to let Milli Vanilli lip-sing. And here's the thing. Among professional musicians, the fact that Rob and Fab don't sing is basically an open secret. And many people are scandalized that Milli Vanilli is even nominated. But they're on the ballot thanks to a junior agent named Todd Hedley,

• 33:30Scaachi Koul?

  who works at the duo's agency. Todd was still an assistant when Rob and Fab got signed. His first big task was buying all the furniture for their Beverly Hills mansion. But Todd really believed in Milli Vanilli, and he wanted to advocate for these young artists. Unfortunately, no one at the agency clued him in about Rob and Fab's open secret. He didn't understand why no one submitted them to the Grammy ballot. So he typed up a four-year consideration letter on the agency's stationery and faxed it to the National Academy of Recording Arts and Sciences. And he was thrilled when Milli Vanilli was nominated. But instead of getting a raise, Todd was chewed out by his boss, who was chewed out by Clive at Arista.

• 34:14Scaachi Koul?

  I guess that being proactive doesn't always pay.

• 34:19Sarah Hagi?

  Oh my god. Huge indictment on the institution that is the Grammys. But it is really funny that, like, this is the only time record executives would be pissed off that their clients have been nominated for a Grammy.

• 34:33Scaachi Koul?

  I know. He was just trying to help. And now, Ken, too, is kicking himself that he agreed to this. If the vocal track skips or stalls, like it did on Club MTV, it'll be a Grammys disaster, and he will never work in this town again. Ken watches their performance with his heart in his throat. But to his great relief, the song goes off without a hitch. Rob and Fab are performing for their lives. Fab is in a royal blue blazer with his signature wide-shoulder pads, whipping his long braids in a circle. Rob is in bright red, throwing everything he has into his spins. They steal the show. And finally, it's time for the Best New Artist winner to be announced. This category is stacked with fresh talent,

• 35:17Scaachi Koul?

  but when the envelope is ripped open, it's clear whose night it is.

• 35:22Speaker 06

  And the best new artist is... Milli Vanilli.

• 35:27Scaachi Koul?

  Rob and Fab hug and bound onto the stage to collect their trophy. Rob leans into the mic to give a quick speech.

• 35:34Speaker 07

  We want to say thank you very much, but we want to say there are a lot of artists here in this room, there are a lot of artists outside in the world who can achieve the same award that we achieved today. And it's an award for all artists in the world. Thank you very much.

• 35:51Sarah Hagi?

  The people who vote for the Grammys are, like, industry insiders. They are members of the Recording Academy. So I'm so shocked that, knowing this open secret, which I'm sure many of them knew that Milli Vanilli still won, and also, Rob doing the most. Like, you don't have to do that. You don't have to turn this into an inspirational moment. Like, do any other speech.

• 36:14Scaachi Koul?

  Yeah, it's kind of hard to witness. But Ken cracks a smile as Rob and Fab exit the stage, holding their statue high. What he doesn't know is why they look so relieved and happy. Because after a year and a half of living a lie, they finally have a plan to fix everything. They're going to demand that Frank let them sing on the next album. Rob and Fab know about the rumors, and the fear of getting discovered has been eating them up inside. But every time they raise concerns to Frank, he's brushed them off. And now, with a Grammy in hand, they might actually have the power to do something about it. Unfortunately, what they see as their opportunity to throw off their imposter syndrome

• 36:58Scaachi Koul?

  is actually going to make things so much worse. Because what Rob and Fab don't know is the depths Frank will sink to when he feels like he's losing control.

• 37:14Speaker 13

  You stepped out for your morning jog. Except it's not your usual morning jog. You started listening to an epic sci-fi book on Audible. 30 chapters later, you've accidentally run a half marathon. You've lost track of how far you've run, somewhere just past the city limits. You can't stop. You have to find out what happens next. Then it's over. The universe seems bigger. You feel different. You feel like you have no idea where you are. Audible. Stories that speak to you.

• 37:45Speaker 01

  He lurks in shadow. He slips into dreams. He casts no reflection. Audible presents Bram Stoker's Dracula: How You've Never Heard It Before, with a new full-cast audio thriller starring Jonathan Bailey as Dracula, Ella Purnell as Mina Harker, and an A-list cast, including Maggie Gyllenhaal as Van Helsing, Amy Lou Wood as Lucy, David Johnson as Dr. Seward, and many more. When Mina's fiancé Jonathan Harker vanishes in Transylvania, Mina pieces together letters, diary entries, and chilling testimony to hunt the predator stalking those she loves,

• 38:26Speaker 01

  only to discover Dracula's already hunting her. Audible's Dracula invites you to welcome literature's most shadowy figure into your home. Listen to the new audiobook adaptation of Bram Stoker's Dracula, only on Audible.

• 38:53Scaachi Koul?

  It's November 1990 in New York City, 10 months after the Grammys. Frank, now 49, has come to the Big Apple to sit down with a reporter. He doesn't leave his studio often, but he's making an exception because he has something huge to break to the world. He's here to put Rob and Fab in their place. Since their Grammy win, Rob and Fab have become more difficult to manage. They're using drugs, making wild demands, and claiming that they're better than the Beatles. But now, the guys have gone too far because Rob and Fab are insisting that they be allowed to sing on the next Milli Vanilli record. To make matters worse, something else is threatening the Milli Vanilli cash machine: overexposure.

• 39:37Scaachi Koul?

  Within a year of going multi-platinum, people are starting to feel a little Milli Vanilli-ed out. Take this famous sketch from "In Living Color," which aired three months after the Grammys. Keen and Ivory Wayans and Damon Wayans did a savage send-up of Rob and Fab, wearing long dreads and brandishing Eurotrash accents.

• 39:56Speaker 05

  We are Milli Vanilli. You know, a lot of people don't understand the enormous success of Milli Vanilli. And neither do we.

• 40:07Sarah Hagi?

  Yes, this is the natural response to Milli Vanilli. You can only see those guys so many times and not start making fun of them.

• 40:15Scaachi Koul?

  Yeah, I mean, we're only human. Between their obnoxious behavior, the drugs, and the audience fatigue, it's feeling like Rob and Fab may be playing themselves out. But then, they push Frank too far. Right before a, quote, "live TV appearance," they threaten to leak the truth. They want more money, or they'll spill everything. Frank has had enough. He's sick of these European himbos. He's the one who made them rich and famous. There's no way he's letting them be the ones to unveil the scam. So he called this press conference. And now, with the help of an interpreter, Frank starts dishing. Rob and Fab, the front men of Milli Vanilli, are frauds.

• 40:57Scaachi Koul?

  He says he masterminded their whole act from the ground up, and now, he's firing them. The news runs in the Associated Press and appears in hundreds of newspapers around the world. Frank does everything he can to make the guys look like fools. He says they begged him to sing, but, quote, "They don't have enough tone and quality in their voices, so my answer was no." He even claims he gave Rob and Fab their long hair extensions and bold outfits. Frank portrays himself as the ultimate puppet master, costumes and all.

• 41:30Sarah Hagi?

  This is a huge gamble because I feel like he's trying really hard to get ahead of whatever Rob and Fab might do, but it just seems like mutual destruction.

• 41:38Scaachi Koul?

  Yeah, he's risking it all, but he's really at the end of his rope. Five days after he breaks the big news, the Academy re-sends Milli Vanilli's Best New Artist Grammy, the first time they've ever revoked an award. Frank may have cost himself a Grammy, but at least he's free of Rob and Fab's threats. But for Rob and Fab, the story is far from over. They charm the world into loving them, and now, they're gonna learn what it feels like when that love turns to fury.

• 42:11Scaachi Koul?

  It's November 20, 1990, in Los Angeles. Rob and Fab are in an echoey conference room with a cluster of microphones set up on one side. It's another press conference, this time called by the duo. The guys want to tell their side of the story. People need to know how Frank controlled them and forced them to live a lie. But as they try to explain, they quickly find themselves battling an unsympathetic press. Here's Rob.

• 42:37Speaker 09

  It was like, I will describe it like this. You get something, but for that, you make a pact with the devil.

• 42:45Scaachi Koul?

  Within minutes, they realize their mistake. No one in this room is gonna forgive them, and neither will their fans.

• 42:54Sarah Hagi?

  Why would they? I feel like if they were the ones to do everything, like the confession, and it not be a press conference that Frank did before them, they could have maybe found some forgiveness. But also, I think the Grammy made it just so much worse. Like, they won an award for being artists. It's not like they were just, like, disregarded pop stars.

• 43:18Scaachi Koul?

  Yeah, I mean, they obviously lied, but there's also an unmistakable racial element to the backlash. Milli Vanilli's audience lays the blame on two young black men instead of the white producer who put it all in motion.

• 43:31Sarah Hagi?

  Well, of course. I mean, there's a reason why there are all these people behind the scenes, because they know that they won't get the blame when shit hits the fan. Yeah, and there's even more trouble.

• 43:42Scaachi Koul?

  Over the next year, at least 26 separate lawsuits get filed against Arista, claiming their misrepresentation about Rob and Fab was tantamount to fraud. There's a class action settlement. Fans who bought tickets to Milli Vanilli concerts are entitled to around $2.50, and they can also get up to $3 back on every Milli Vanilli CD that they purchased. In a sick twist, Frank is able to move on pretty smoothly. The upside to being unknown by the wider public is that no one really associates him with the mess. He'll later record tracks with Stevie Wonder, Terrance Trent Darby, and more. No self-reflection needed. But for Rob and Fab, moving on will be almost impossible.

• 44:24Scaachi Koul?

  The thing they wanted most, global fame, has become their curse. Reclaiming their identities as people and as performers is their only option. They need to find out who they are when they're not Milli Vanilli. And one of them will find this question impossible to answer.

• 44:45Scaachi Koul?

  It's June 1996 in Los Angeles. Rob, now 32 years old, is about to make his escape. He's at a drug treatment facility in North Hollywood, where he's been ordered to stay as part of a plea deal. He's been charged with three criminal acts over the past few months, including breaking into a car and beating someone with a lamp. Rob can't deal with rehab. Overwhelmed and frightened, he just walks out of the clinic's back door, and nobody stops him. Life has been hard in the six years since the end of Milli Vanilli. At first, Rob and Fab tried to revive their careers using their real names and voices. Here's footage of Fab working with a coach, trying to learn his rap lines phonetically.

• 45:29Speaker 04

  Don't you understand, you know, this love is true? This, now watch. Remember when you were saying "this"?

• 45:34Speaker 00

  It's "this."

• 45:35Speaker 04

  You have to put your tongue out. Let me see. This, good.

• 45:39Sarah Hagi?

  I know these clips from those, like, VH1. Behind the Music. Behind the Music, I love the 90s. Like, those things, I feel like they were really heavily circulated on TV, and it doesn't get easier to hear them or see them because it's so painful. And I do feel so bad for them that they really did end up trying, and they just weren't good at it. I wish they had just been like, you know what? We're gonna focus on dancing and become choreographers. That was their strength. Uh, it makes me so sad.

• 46:10Scaachi Koul?

  I know. And then, in 1993, the pair self-released an album, but Milli Vanilli remained a global punchline. Rob, in particular, struggles with the aftermath. He's always battled anger and depression, and the drug use he picked up at the height of his superstardom has gotten much worse. When he was world famous, Rob self-medicated to deal with living a lie. Now that he's infamous, he self-medicates to escape the truth. He gets into hard drugs, including crack cocaine, and soon, everything he earned as one-half of Milli Vanilli is gone. Even worse, it cost him his friendship with Fab. In their early 20s, Fab had been like Rob's little brother, but now that they're in

• 46:55Scaachi Koul?

  their 30s, Fab has become the responsible one. While Rob spiraled, Fab stepped back from the limelight. He practiced English, took voice lessons, and performed small solo gigs around LA. He wanted to reclaim his voice and his relationship to music. If Rob could think clearly, he might have been proud of Fab, but instead, he pushed Fab away, and the two lost touch. In 1997, VH1 comes out with a Behind the Music episode about Milli Vanilli, which I have seen conservatively 1,000 times. The following year, Rob heads to a rehab facility in Germany, where he tries to piece together what's left of his self-esteem. And while he's there, he does the unthinkable.

• 47:39Scaachi Koul?

  He reconnects with Frank.

• 47:42Sarah Hagi?

  That is so crazy, and like, I think, very typical of people who've been exploited. If they don't know anything else, they end up reconnecting with the person who really hurt them or abused them or whatever. Yeah, exactly.

• 47:55Scaachi Koul?

  Rob moves into a hotel not far from Frank and Ingrid, and they make plans to start working together on a loosely defined project. Rob even convinces Frank to give him a cash advance. But in the end, he can't outrun his addiction or the emotional pain that caused it. Rob spends his advance on alcohol and pills. And one morning, when Ingrid calls him at his hotel, he doesn't answer. She gets the manager to open the door and finds Rob, dead of a drug-related heart attack at the age of 33. Long ago, Rob wanted to be famous, but getting that wish destroyed him. And now, the surviving half of Milli Vanilli will prove whether they ever stood a chance in the limelight.

• 48:42Scaachi Koul?

  It's March 2011 in New York City. Fab, now in his mid-40s, is standing onstage at a tiny black box theater, the kind of place that smells like stale beer and old upholstery. In some ways, Fab looks the same as he did in the 80s, slim and handsome with bright, curious eyes. But his hair is now short, and he's dressed in a plain brown starter jacket, no shoulder pads to be found. This is the Moth Story Slam, a famous first-person storytelling event. And tonight, Fab has a story to tell.

• 49:16Speaker 00

  In Los Angeles, California, it's 1990. We are at the biggest party in the music industry. It's the Grammys. We just finished performing,

• 49:28Speaker 04

  "Girl, you know it's true. Ooh, ooh, ooh, I love you."

• 49:35Sarah Hagi?

  I mean, he's a competent singer for singing that song, you know? Sure, he's not some powerhouse vocalist, but it's clear that he did try and learn something.

• 49:44Scaachi Koul?

  Yeah, I mean, as you can hear, Fab's singing voice is a lot more confident these days. He's put so much time and energy into putting his life back together. It's been 13 years since Rob's death, which devastated Fab. But he's found ways to keep going. He taught French at a language school and kept working on his music. Shortly after this Moth appearance, he moves to Amsterdam, where he meets a woman named Tessa, and they're now raising four children together. Fab also manages to use his tarnished reputation to create a new one. In 2016, he stars in a short film by KFC called Be Real. It's very artsy, with wide shots of windswept beaches and gray skies.

• 50:28Scaachi Koul?

  And yes, it is an ad for chicken, 100% real chicken. But it does show that Fab has a sense of humor about himself. Instead of being laughed at, he's laughing with us. In January 2024, Frank Farian dies in Miami at the age of 82. Remembrances come from all over, including the surviving members of the disco group Bon Iam. In the end, Frank faced zero repercussions for that scam or the Milli Vanilli scam. While the good news is that death won't be the final word on Frank's legacy, because these days, cultural interest in Milli Vanilli is resurfacing with a vengeance. There's a 2023 documentary, a 2024 biopic, and a 2025 memoir by Fab, all exposing the truth

• 51:13Scaachi Koul?

  about how Frank manipulated Rob and Fab before throwing them away. And in 2025, Fab's story comes full circle. He was nominated for a second Grammy for the recording of his memoir's audiobook. He didn't win, but his story ends with a different kind of victory. Because after becoming infamous for using someone else's voice, Fab was finally recognized for using his real one.

• 51:42Scaachi Koul?

  Sarah, this is like a bit of a different scam than normal, because you kind of think surely the scam would be the artist in question. But this is an Onion scam. There's a lot of people lying, and they're lying for different reasons and in different ways. But it's not really the guys doing the scam who are at most at fault, I feel.

• 52:00Sarah Hagi?

  Yeah, it's so interesting because a story like this is kind of a time capsule in a way, where the stakes and monoculture of it all made this so hugely massive. Here's the thing. I don't think, right now, if we knew that someone was winning a Grammy and they weren't singing, it wouldn't be a controversy. But people would move on from it fast enough, and the fake singers would be able to quickly translate it into something else. Or like, it just wouldn't have the same consequences. And I also do find that they were packaged, not from like, any type of artistic merit, but just the need to have a big hit and to sell, you know, millions of records and be really famous and be in magazines

• 52:44Sarah Hagi?

  and be able to sell products and everything. Like, that was the goal, which at one point was frowned upon as selling out, but is kind of the only way anyone is really famous now in music?

• 52:55Scaachi Koul?

  Yeah. I guess the thing that I keep thinking about and that I kept thinking about when we were talking about this episode is like, this is a conversation about whether it's unethical to use other human voices to sell music that is being packaged by a different face and body. And now we're having arguments of like, is AI music? Can we have an AI artist be nominated for a Grammy? And at this point, if like, and I'm gonna say Drake, because he is our burden. But if like Drake came out and was like, "I used AI in my last album," people would be like, "Yeah, probably."

• 53:32Sarah Hagi?

  Yeah, there'd be like a discourse around it, but would it change, you know, who's listening?

• 53:38Scaachi Koul?

  I don't think they would take his Grammys away.

• 53:40Sarah Hagi?

  No, I don't think so. I really don't think so. I mean, it's this question of what is more important for the powers that be? Like, what is enough of a scandal for a record executive, a Clive Davis type, to be like, "Oh, we have to do something about this"? If they were sincerely able to get away with it and play the game for long enough, I don't know if either we'd know this or if the reveal could be manipulated somehow into further success. Like, it's really interesting that it fell apart because they wanted more and also because Frank was like, "I'm gonna get ahead of what they're gonna do." Because he knew he'd be okay in the end.

• 54:19Scaachi Koul?

  What do you make of the racial element of this? I think if it was white guys doing this, people would not have felt this like, kind of disproportionate sense of betrayal.

• 54:29Sarah Hagi?

  Yeah.

• 54:30Scaachi Koul?

  The idea that people were like, "You owe me money, because I was sure I was listening to these black guys,

• 54:35Sarah Hagi?

  and it's actually not them." For sure. And also, you know, they were presenting in a very safe, mainstream way, which wasn't really an option for a lot of black musicians at the time. Like, they were able to transcend what is like urban radio or like what is meant for black people to listen to and became this pop act that didn't really stand for anything or have any type of baggage attached to it. But also have like, the expertise of what people think black artists have to offer, which is, you know, being able to dance really well and sing really well. And I do think like, yeah, the racial element obviously is a huge part in that, because it's like, you're being betrayed by these black guys,

• 55:19Sarah Hagi?

  who I thought could sing and dance. I let them trick me into thinking they were talented enough for me to listen to them. Yeah, and I'm so mad about that. Sachi, what do you think would happen if this happened today? Like, I know we kind of touched on it a little bit, but I'm curious how you think it'd go down.

• 55:37Scaachi Koul?

  I mean, I think we have such a more sophisticated understanding of like, the industry plant and like, how a record is made and like, how someone is discovered and what kind of work they get to do. I think it would probably be a mini-scandal, but I think it would last like, unless the person in question was like Beyonce or Taylor Swift. And it was like, this artist at this level has been lying to you like that. But if it came out that like, Demi Lovato was actually not singing those songs, I'd be like, "Oh, it's a little surprising."

• 56:10Sarah Hagi?

  But I don't, I don't think it would be a huge controversy. In the first High School Musical, Zac Efron wasn't singing. But he did end up singing the other ones. This is what I mean. Like, that's barely moved the needle,

• 56:22Scaachi Koul?

  and he was in a musical.

• 56:24Sarah Hagi?

  Like, that's the job. Also, like, you really don't need to be that great of a vocalist to be a musician at all today. That's true. It's just not a necessary requirement. Now I'm sounding like kids these days, but I just don't think there's a huge focus on being able to know how to sing that well.

• 56:41Scaachi Koul?

  Yeah, they have auto-tuned.

• 56:42Sarah Hagi?

  It's a known thing. People know certain musicians, when they're performing live, because they are also dancing, have pitch-changing microphones. Software. And if someone's doing a crazy, long show, you are anticipating a lot of the vocals to be backing tracks to make it sound stronger. Like, it's just a thing people don't care about now, unless it's like Adele and a piano, you know?

• 57:06Scaachi Koul?

  I mean, I honestly, if this happened today, like, this would be handled in 45 minutes with an Instagram post. They would just make a post that was like, "Sorry, I was sick."

• 57:17Scaachi Koul?

  Do you think that our listeners will ever forgive us when they find out that we are merely the faces of the show and the voices are two white men named Steve?

• 57:26Sarah Hagi?

  No, I don't think they'll ever forgive us. You know, actually, we might get some new listeners and fewer comments of a certain nature. I hear that manosphere is very welcoming for guys like us. Two Steves. Yes, yes, exactly.

• 57:46Scaachi Koul?

  Follow Scamfluencers on the Audible app or wherever you get your podcasts.

• 57:49Speaker 15

  You can listen to all episodes of Scamfluencers ad-free by joining Audible.

• 57:54Scaachi Koul?

  From Audible Originals, this is Milli Vanilli, "Girl, You Know It's Not True", for Scamfluencers.

• 58:00Sarah Hagi?

  I'm Sachi Cole. And I'm Sarah Haggie. If you have a tip for us on a story that you think we should cover, please email us at [email protected]. We use many sources in our research. A few that were particularly helpful were the 2023 documentary, Milli Vanilli, directed by Luke Corum, Milli Vanilli at 30, Oral History of Faux Pop Group's Rise and Fall by Gil Kaufman for Billboard, and We Sold Our Souls to the Devil by Chuck Phillips for The LA Times. If you'd like to go even deeper into Milli Vanilli's story, you can listen to episode one of Blame It on the Fame anywhere you get your podcasts. Audible subscribers can binge all episodes of Blame It on the Fame and listen ad-free right now. Join Audible in the Audible app or by subscribing on Apple Podcasts.

• 58:45Scaachi Koul?

  Katie Clark Gray wrote this episode. Additional writing by us, Sachi Cole and Sarah Haggie. Olivia Bryley is our story editor. Our senior producers are Sarah Enni and Ginny Bloom. Our associate producer is Charlotte Miller. Our managing producer is Desi Blaylock. Fact-checking by Kalina Newman. Sound design by James Morgan. Additional audio assistance provided by Augustine Lim. Our music supervisor is Scott Velazquez for Freeze on Sync. The executive producer for Audible is Jenny Lauer-Beckman. The head of creative development at Audible is Kate Navin. The head of Audible Originals North America is Marshall Louis. The chief content officer is Rachel Giatza. Copyright 2026 by Audible Originals LLC. Sound recording copyright 2026 by Audible Originals LLC.

• 59:33Speaker 03

  On January 24, 2023, in Ducksbury, Massachusetts, Patrick Clancy called 911. He had found his wife Lindsay badly injured and his three children dead and dying. What followed would become one of the most searing and complicated cases in recent memory, raising hard questions about motherhood, mental illness, and how far our justice system will go to understand what really happened. I'm Candace DeLong, host of the podcast Killer Psyche. In our latest episode, we take you inside the case of Lindsay Clancy, the postpartum psychosis defense, the courtroom battle, and the trial that just ended in a stunning mistrial.

• 1:00:16Speaker 03

  Follow Killer Psyche wherever you get your podcasts. Audible subscribers can listen to all episodes of Killer Psyche one week early and ad-free right now. Join Audible in the Audible app or by subscribing on Apple Podcasts.